##VIDEO ID:JGLLAPA0Zh4## Jason Dave shall we start or are we waiting for Old Habits di Fran go ahead so noting the hour I'm calling the select board meeting to order noting the time in the presence of perform I call the act and finance committee to order noting that one of our members is uh attending remotely hi everyone nice of you to select a nice dry clear evening cancer hi hi who was that is that Alison it is hi Allison I'm B okay so uh does everyone in here know each other you know who you are yeah Karen you okay a lot of older faces a lot of younger in terms of tenure faces okay uh so let me explain who who I am and why how I got here briefly um I'm Bart Wendell uh my wife Sandra and I are a resident of Acton South Acton which is particularly relevant because of the period we lived here um 1979 looking for an affordable house started in Lexington in the morning bought a house on River Street in that afternoon stayed there for 25 years restored the house and left um and went to Peter Sam spelled with an H you don't pronounce the h and [Music] um let me see who that is how do you Doctor how do you pronounce your first name y Yang okay I'm B so uh we just started so uh that period uh those 25 years were very Lively in South Acton South Acton was pretty much another part of town most people didn't think it was part of Acton they thought they literally thought it was mayard because it was pretty rundown uh more than pretty rundown we had three major fires right in the center in the time I lived there and at one town meeting I arrived as a voter to be told that I had set the fire so that we could build a restaurant there the bug buggy shop Greg you would remember that way back when um that's where the sewers ultimately came from that's where the village districts ultimately came from that's where the South Acton historic district came from the reason I tell you that is because I have a history actually my wife took much most of the heat but but so that's how I got uh knowledgeable about town government also as knowledgeable about the schools because I had started out as a high school teacher for a brief time and actually consulted to schools my whole career among other things so uh 35 years ago we think is when the ALG started and I've been finding a way to get here for 35 years so which is both a privilege and a pain in the neck sometimes so um you want to take a vote we we could take a vote consensus I I think we could reach consense that it's both Christie uh could I request that people please use the microphones because I can't hear if you don't say again everyone please use a microphone closer is that what you said everybody else oh everybody everybody else use the microphone he says as he forgets to turn on his microphone very good she just wants to make hear sure to hear all the side comments in the room yeah I don't I don't know if any of you other Alzheimer's have uh the problem this room since I've had hearing aids for two years is the most difficult place that I go to to hear there's just one big Echo so if I ask you to repeat yourself I apologize but I've aged so okay so that's what I got here and um we'll see if I invited back um so tonight I'm thinking aiming for an hour um most people don't complain about an hour you can get a lot done hopefully um Jason and Fran would you take the responsibility of watching the clock and letting us s when it's like 10 of and we can then at that time decide what to do about that but we're definitely not going to go all hours on a Friday night that doesn't make sense to me um so my understanding of uh does everyone know what the ALG is disclosure I was on the board of Selectmen 40 years ago when we created the ALG so if you want to cast dispersions I'm guilty if you could tell us when it was then we'd have a a year we don't I don't know the year that we started we actually started in 1982 82 can't count that high okay thanks great like it's good to have institutional memory so um my understanding of tonight is we're here because uh these two groups your two groups have had trouble finding a common answer for the uh the wish to have a improved um building for DPW uh and I haven't seen it in 25 years I'm imagining it looks somewhat like it did 25 years ago it was already looking pretty unhealthy okay so the idea is to see if we can break the Log Jam we may not be able to in fact this kind of thing it's usually 5050 whether we can um I was surprised if different times in my career to bra I brace myself to tell people well at best it's 50/50 and have people start cheering and saying you think it's that good you you know with this situation is it really that good so okay so the first thing I'd like you to do uh if you'd humor me is to gather uh in a small circle with your entity you might just want to stand because it'll only take maybe five minutes maybe you guys can be over here and you all can be behind Greg and what I'd like you to do is coordinate a description to the best of your knowledge of what the stance of the other group is so you're going to describe what the fitcom belief should happen with this 40 is it 4 43 million who's who's arguing uh project potential project 43 potential project and you would as a group describe what their position is and why and I'm also goingon to so there's three things one is what is it two is why and three is um how strongly do you think that other group of people uh is going to defend that position against all others on a scale of 1 to 10 any questions so we're going to do it fairly quickly we'll see how long it takes we can take more time maybe five minutes do a quickie and then um but be specific as you can please repeat the three CR criteria what's that please repeat the three criteria okay first is what's the position on improving the present facility improving or replacing might have three four bullets five bullets uh six second is um why well we want to put the equipment undercover heated because in priority 1 to 10 and then the third is one to 10 how strongly do you think they hold that that they're attached to that position okay any other questions okay go for it if you'd like some paper to jot it down we got paper and Sharpies here s um e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e [Music] okay you did it it would seem so um obviously this is a reality testing and the cost of this project is too large um uh primarily uh because the timing is so bad because we've just had large tax increases and um so this is just the wrong time to have this large project now in terms of why the project cost so much or too much there's also the feeling that the both the scope and the size of the project uh are too large um there are a variety of and and the the belief on that is maybe eight out of 10 it's very strong feeling on on the on the fincom um the specifics of how to cut down the size and scope christe ex excuse I'm sorry Jim y what's wrong Chris you're can you hear us Christie is your microphone yes uh she looks like she's lost in space it's not hearing anything there you are okay welcome back go ahead CH okay um so we covered yeah cost is too large uh and the timing is one of the major factors in that and that the scope and size of the project is too large uh that's a very strongly held belief um there are a variety of theories and ideas about how to reduce the size in the scope um those those are not as strongly held or unanimously held by by the committee um yeah think that's the summary anyone want to add to that from the the new finance committee over here no no you get it um anyone from this the old finance committee wish to comment on the description of your old stance I I think you're close close so um is the scope too large yes I think that's a fairly strong consensus um the second one is timing yes coming uh immediately after an override um is a concern and when it comes to the details I think you also uh close there's been a lot of discussion but we haven't taken hard votes on this is in that's out um so I I I I think it's uh fairly close anything specifically that you think is a little off GRE you want me to show my cards ahead of time right up my sleeve yeah um one of the other things that I think is I think I've mentioned this to at least two people is the classic line from Cool Hand Luke we have a failure to communicate um we on the old finance committee thought we had transmitted our basic concern about an override in September when we got our point of view to the select board earlier than we did a year ago and um it's taken until the end of January for us to have this kind of session boy it would have been great if we could have done it last October okay anyone wish to add from you all approved of Jim's description and if you want to respond further to what the new fincom said you think they got it there's not been a failure to communicate is that right there's been successful communication there's one aspect Bart that I've been trying to bring out mentioned several times okay um but it's kind of beyond the scope of this meeting because I think in this project in its scope will will close out future projects we simply will not have the voter um support to do sidewalks to do other projects that are scheduled in the near future um I think um last year's operating override is would not be the end I think there'll be one in fiscal 27 and on and on and on is there presently a list of um requested potential override so that you've got that as usual no sir there's not a list of requested potential overd there is a long list of requested Capital Improvements from departments department heads from the municipal side and the school CIP is forthcoming okay all right and you said uh Jim you said 8 out of 10 is strongly does that go for most everything you said or are some things lesser than others um the the timing is wrong might even be nine out of 10 that it's too much is eight eight or nine out of 10 you're being nice so in other words it's 10 out of 10 on the timing yeah I sense well there could be somebody on the finc come who thinks the timing would be okay if the costs were a lot less and there might so okay you know there's trade-offs there we don't really understand that by the way we don't really understand if there's some number that would mean that it would be okay to proceed with so that's that's a mystery to us just to be clear you don't you understand the concept but you don't know what the number you don't know if it's 10 million or 41 million or did you know that that they don't yes go ahead K yes and and um they don't know the number because we don't know the number either um and one of the challenges that we had as recently as the meeting we had Wednesday night was it was unclear if it was 43 million hence the joke is that the working number yeah it's as good as any other um there is still value engineering being done which means we're not entirely clear what the number is so we're trying to work as best we can with numbers that are fluid so it could be 10% plus or minus is that Dean is that a or whoever the final number I don't mean after construction but before construction could be plus or minus something David so we we started at um uh 47 million in for this building and through value engineering reduced it to 43 and that's the the entire project cost not just the building cost um and we're still working to reduce it but the progress slows down right it's you know so and so the I would list the 43 million dollar now is the um the worst case and we're going to try to reduce it uh more okay and okay and we are very delighted that the select board agreed to reduce the 47 down to 43 based on recommendations from the finance committee that we do the construction as rapidly as possible as opposed to facing it in over two years which ex ex expands the cost so in in that sense we were communicating and um we were in agreement on that step so yeah so wait I need to jump in here I'm sorry okay uh I am very happy to hear that uh our position are our two prong two main thrusts prong of not at this time and not at the scope I'm glad to hear that they've received both of them but I'm not going to give that 40 million is an acceptable number either and for the simple reason of just looking at their own Weston and Samson report from just a couple of years AG you're not but I wanted to know what the group was going to fair enough do you stand apart from the f the rest of the fincom on that you would have to pull them individually I'm sorry okay I 100% agree with Jason I agree with Jason like I thought they you know when I the first number I heard was 40 million like and that was before I think the number came in and then it was 47 and then they came down to 43 it's just like but that's still higher than 40 and like said in my mind 40 was still too much so there's been early success but not that you it doesn't feel that way to some of you cuz it's may have started somewhere else yeah um so I I also agree and I also think that if you look at different estimate uh during the the the the timeline of this project the number has gone from 27 to 37 to uh 47 it went down so uh what concerns me is that uh it might be right to do it like the way it is at 27 but when the price went up um it is still the best way to do it in this scope and the size and the timing or should we reconsider the scope okay that's um the price is going up and that might be the time to reconsider the scope so it might be helpful to track the history of the 40 47 43 but we don't have time so I'm going to just put that aside for now unless we think it really might add something to what we're talking about um no sir it's all too high all too high got it okay so 8 out of 10 is that a fair description of your commitment to what you're advocating 8 at of 10 is high it's not rigidly high but it's right on the edge yeah Christie uh we have asked for some information financial information to help justify the cost and have not received that feedback um such as how much would it shorten the lifetime of the equipment if it was left outside as opposed to in the giant Warehouse there are ways to quantify this but with this very tight timeline that we've been given to get this into the spring town meeting we need that information yesterday okay so is that news in anyway to the select board de so I I think you know obviously it's a it is a very tight time frame that we're working under an audit to get to town meeting and with the constant increase in construction cost there's there's a rationale behind pushing ahead with this as quickly as possible um we've provided I think a huge amount of information that's available uh on the project website uh some of the numbers that people have been asking for uh we just got today are two days ago specifically as far as the uh the energy costs of the new building cost of the equipment um all those things are being developed so it and we're going to be pushing ahead for another um um estimate probably in another couple of weeks just as things are fine-tuned know some of the questions we're still working with on with Wiston and Samson and their Engineers for instance is looking at the ground Source heat pump Wells how many Wells do we actually need um they came in with a high number initially now they're scaling that back but we still don't have enough data to prove that the lower number is is going to be adequate can you give a I'm sorry can you give a ballpark guess of when you'll have most of the information you're going to have we've we've got another uh building committee meeting set up for uh 12th of February that um we pushed real hard at the meeting that Greg was at um on Wednesday night the uh so I think we'll have more information then but the problem is if you push hard and try to get an early estimate they haven't completed the design documents so it's the further out that you push doing the uh the final estimate the more accurate the information is but then obviously you're getting really close to town meeting yeah so and whatever we've come up with what's ever been presented to us has been made available on the website um and you know in the past people said you know we didn't see it but you know we've got we've given to you uh Christie um Dean I hear what you're saying and the disconnect is that we are not getting what we are asking for I appreciate that you are sharing everything you have but we have asked for very explicit quantifiable information and have not received it and we cannot do our financial due diligence without the financial information we're looking for choose between you I think I think we've made some progress here I think if if the finance committee could come up with you know a written list of exactly what other information you don't have that you're still looking for you know we can work that document we I've been under the impression that we've been fulfilling all your requests and obviously if you don't think you've got it then you haven't got it so if if we could get something in writing from fincom saying exactly what it is it's the pieces of information that are still missing that would be helpful we can turn it over to the Architects uh we can work it with the project team thank you okay so it's important in a situation like this not to uh go back to a defensive position where you're judging well how is that possible how is it possible you haven't heard answers and so on not going to get us anywhere so uh whether you believe that or not so um maybe before we stop we can figure out how if you wish to uh you can come up with your most current list of unknowns questions everything you want to have answered before you move forward and Dean are you the should you be the recipient of that and then you can tell them be a good idea at the time let's aim for two weeks or a week or whatever it is and make an agreement right then and there maybe the chair be party to that so there's no misunderstandings um so let's how long is the list is it how long would it take you to write it up you think Jason what what's your sense I'm happy to start now I don't know how long it would take I'm I fear that I wouldn't capture everything but I'm more than willing to give it a shot um I'm also willing to take a different cut at it same task same task different approach Steve yeah uh as part of my comments to the town manager just before the first budget session I my comment questions on the capital play I submitted a list of questions uh so it have been a couple weeks ago and I as is um our procedure I copied the chair and I believe I copied you to David as a fin ason on the questions so it's a start of other people may have other questions we're happy to start okay so hold on thank you Jason hold that it's clear that there's some passing in the dark whether there should be I I'm not interested but I'm sure you would be but we can come back to that if we need to um so before we leave tonight let's make a decision whether that's something you could do in five minutes right here or he should go home and forward it make sense stean and Jason and Greg and Steve so make a plan one way or the other either do it before we leave or in the next day or two yeah I just want to clarify Steve the questions you've already asked they're still outstanding is that a correct or incorrect statement they're still outstanding so there's already questions that have been sitting for yeah a couple weeks yeah sounds like we should start over as annoying that may be uh what are the questions that are outstanding so they're in one place and what's the agreement on when you're either going to you all will say here's the answer or I just can't get the answer and I can't even tell you when I have no control over it you know it's the it's with the Consulting Engineers or it's with the state or whatever okay the main thing is to say this is where it's at this is what you can expect from me uh I'm going to disappoint you because I I can't come up with the answer I know what I think it is but that's probably not a good idea okay so let's park that for a minute um okay the 8 out of 10 that's good good description for all of you oh no we have a different number is it our turn to pretend to be them I hate to say it but I still didn't hear what you said is it our turn to pretend to be them 8 out of 10 is how committed what's your we think they're at a 10 okay no's answering question is about whether they thought our how strong we are we're we're hearing that they think we're at an eight yes we we we acknowledge that we hear that they think we're at an eight uh my problem is I'm just having trouble hearing so uh where do you think you all are let's go down and just shout out a number in general dror go ahead n okay so so so to me I think um I still don't understand like what if if if we're not arguing against the need of having uh to do something with a d DPW building but we our position is like the the cost and the scope it's on the cost and scope if you're asking about our position on the cost and scope could be different the cost and scope will different My Position will be a or n okay te on the on the the possibility of the scope and this and the and the size could be different not need on to have a you all that beauty yeah roll on are we talking about the timing at all is it just size and scope right now because timing was a big issue too timing feel free to give both so timing I'm a hard 10 and scoping so they're absolutely committed to doing it this spring what do we think they I think they well yeah I mean they that's their number one goal so right so I think there are 10 on okay let's keep going is that where what we think they are same I agree with K I know it's confusing oh no that's not what she was answering were you answering where the fincom stands I think no wait okay I am getting confused they think wait so this is where they think they stand how how firmly do you think they're holding on to they are I think they're I think they are a 10 in their position okay 10 so if asking about where they standing I also think that 10 10 10 Rolland you did you say 10 C C can I ask a question here yeah we didn't hear their points you're asking for their number but we didn't hear what their points were so we listed our bullet points and what our number was in our we're talking about you guys they haven't listed their so so that that's where we they're confusing the number they're listing their their own number we said eight yeah where they stand so let me and understand it's confusing I only ask confusing questions um the question is now that you've described their stand we haven't described their stand yet we have not described their state I'm confused now that you've described thcom right how firmly do you feel they're holding on to that stand how firmly do you think they are in that stand think of Hardcore Trump supporters hardcore Progressive Democrats How likely are to change I would start usually with a 10 on each side and then as an example so so what I'm asking of dve so we we we said um fincom held their beliefs at least an eight okay probably more than an eight eight plus does that make sense to you do you feel like that's how firmly you're holding we understand that that is their perception of our opinion and now reality test it tell me what you think so now if I'm if I'm hearing you properly you're asking how strongly do we feel in our position yes even though we've not yet described our opinion thank you jaseon go ahead very good so in our position how strongly do we feel ourselves about our position that this is not the time nor the scope again this is not the time and the scope to me will be a a n okay time is a 10 and scope and expense is a 9 and a half okay Rolland I'd say nine for both okay I'll go with nine for both I'm me eight on the timing I was willing to engage in September and I a 10 on the scope okay great um I would say at this time I'm a 10 on the timing I don't think we can do it between now and town meeting and I'm an eight on the scope Steve nine across the board okay Alison I'd say on the facts that I have today I'm a 10 okay nine or 10 basically and Chris I really wanted to be a six on the scope but we have been um I feel like this timing has pushed us into needing to come up with a decision and approval of things like scope that we just can't reach in this amount of time so I'm I'm definitely a 10 on the timing with the information we currently have and that's going to put me okay on a high number on the scope too okay so let me say out loud what's obvious from between the lines there seems to be a sense on the from fincom members that somehow this uh call negotiation conversation has not gone has not been effective and that time has passed and in spite of there should have been should having have been progress by now there's not so if there's going to be progress we're going to have to get past that frustration I'll put a nice word on it frustration okay make sense Fran well I just have a quick question because I'm confusing timing um I'm hearing from some fincom members that it's timing from town meeting but or is it timing because of the override so that's what I wanted to clarify it's the override okay and there was not everybody here would be aware of it but there was a general agreement sense of the meeting agreement that uh a year or two a couple years ago that future overrides would be announced as early as possible because the experience of the town was it's always too you know it's almost always too late to get an override going so you have to Christy quickly for me it is as much the timing about getting this in for a Springtown meeting uh to get into the feelings a little it felt like the select board presented this is going to happen for the spring without having answered our questions so I felt like my opinion really didn't matter and got brushed aside okay and I won't ask about a town meeting uh June 20th or something like that May 6th May 6th but that's that's your current that's your new current schedule May 6 yeah so you know you can have Town meetings up to 30th you don't want to but Dean so I guess the uh if I could hear is there any consensus in the finance committee putting aside that the issue of scope and size of the building and total cost is there a consensus from the finance committee as to when a better time is are we pushing it out a year two years at this point you know we can argue for years about size and scope but I'm specifically looking at if we can just take one of the objections out of the way what time frame do you think is appropriate so I I'd like to take Rec of that if I may our initial when we first had the point of view conversation this year our initial answer was FY 29 but I want want to be very clear I don't want there to be anything Lost in Translation timing is only half of it we were asked the last ALG meeting by the moderator of that ALG meeting what the worst case scenario would be what what what would be so bad if thing if we didn't get to consensus this year and let me be very clear pushing it off a year or two and coming back with the same project that is riddled with things that we believe as a committee are wants and not needs would be a mistake okay so it's a two-pronged issue to answer the question that you specifically posed I would say I would like to bring this up in fiscal year 29 on a right-sized project okay so that's a clear statement Jason so um looking at the clock David important Point well I I feel like they've made their points and we haven't had a chance to make sorry Now's the Time okay so for a couple of things that I I I think are important here is first I think that this is the right-sized project how would you make it smaller hold on a sec hold on a sec I'm not ready I'm not ready to moderate a no no no I I am that was a rhetorical question I'm sorry we have answers can it's rhetorical well okay I won't I won't put a question mark in my statement um okay so let me back up can can I make my point or can I not make my point uh I'm considering since I you know we need to figure out how to work time into this the subject is time how about this David I understand why don't you just State the make the statement and then we'll go from there okay um so uh the the garage part of the building is um um even not quite big enough to hold hold all the pieces of equipment that we have now and uh without so it's it we we couldn't make it smaller without forcing equipment outside and I can talk about that in a in a second um the the office part is just big enough to hold the office workers we have the shop part is big enough to hold the shop the shop work we have basically it is not an oversized building right it it cannot be cut back I think without being a bad value for the town why would we build an inadequate building that that makes no sense to me at all that's just a waste of taxpayer money okay so I'm going to jump in there I understand you're not finished is there anyone on the fincom uh for which David's point is new you've all heard that explanation okay so I want to just stop where we are for the moment and not get into the weeds because the idea of this was to do something a little different than get back into the weeds quite yet um frustrating but that's the plan um would you all quickly someone on your group describe now do the reverse describe what you think the board of selectman's position is why they hold it which David just started so I'm supposed to explain why no he does not want an answer to the space question he wants you to run down that list ah so I'm supposed to say what we think the select board's position we're reality testing whether you each understand okay the others position is everyone clear on that we and we've written it down so it's there so we think the select board wants to rip down the old building and build the Taj Mahal unquote um also called White Elephant but Taj Mahal got more votes um why because if we don't do it now it'll just get more expensive next year and the year after and the year after that and the year after that and if we go to town meeting and it fails this year no problem we'll just bring it back next year and we'll bring it back again and again until it passes okay uh we believe um everything is vital that we put into this um 46,8 184 square foot facility hint that's a number we can talk about um we think that the uh electric future is absolutely essential at all costs um uh we think um we are immovable immovable this is just what's right um we um so they're confident that they've got the right answer we we we yes we think they're 10 okay in in their defense of their position um we think that they miss the fact that there are um I can't read that so uh I'll jump in on this one um there the select board doesn't understand that the finance commit doesn't understand why the finance committee doesn't see all of this as a need right okay um uh timing is sooner sorry did you have a question need as a need versus a want everything in there is a need um we think you think that that um okay timing um you know why is why is that an issue uh because inflation is more important than the fact there was an override a year ago that only passed by 45 votes but who's counting okay um just trust us we know what we're doing we're elected officials you're just appointed we've heard that um we think the select board thinks that they are providing us with the why we need this scope of building and we think the fincom will fall in line eventually because they have to was there something else uh the next the next the next page is the answer to the question of how strongly do we feel the select board is wants to do this come H or high water this year okay anything else to add the next slide is the wise of what they're doing okay thank you gang Christie do you need to jump in right now uh yes I just wanted to add that the select board thinks that the citizens can afford this that's on the that's on the we're getting there we're getting there okay um so they think this is the best time sooner is better than later um so they're more concerned about inflation than than um um the people that we've been hearing from at um let's say listening sessions have your opinion sorry you're right I'm slipping aren't I they think it will pass on the override and they think it will pass even though it requires a two-thirds vote at town meeting and if it doesn't they're not afraid if it fails they think that they will have no ramifications down the road um they think it will help recruit employees which it will we agree with that we agree with that uh we think there are health health issues we think they think there are health issues we agree with that um but we disagree on how to solve them well some of us do um we think we can afford this um we're hearing otherwise from the people we hear from um they paid paid last year a year ago during the override um scramble um the select board feels that they um cut deeper than they needed to um to help the schools out and now it's time for them to sort of catch back up again um and I think that's it okay so I'm going to jump right to the current Board of Selectmen do you wish to disagree with any of those things or are they accurate chair um at least for this select board member we've never discussed what happens if it doesn't pass so the assertion that we already have a plan to bring it back here after year at the same size and scope maybe somebody else is saying that but or maybe even somebody else on the select board is saying that but it's hasn't been a a select board position it hasn't come up in a meeting and are you saying it hasn't come up outside when you're talking with well no one's ever talked to me about it but you know yeah that doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed you can only speak for yourself Fran I can speak for myself too and that has never come and I I did everyone catch that I'm sorry and I don't know if anyone heard my ouch at the last thing that was read um because we had an override for the school we think the town that is that is ouch so you don't agree with that that the town feels it's due right tit for uh what's the ti for there's a legal term for trading qu Pro quit Pro Crow thank you those Latin Scholars uh Dean yeah the one point that I strongly agree with the finance committee is that the select Bo does indeed feel that everything in that building is a need and not a want okay no no debate on that at all anyone else David you want to jump in so I I I I agree with a lot of things on the on the on the second sheet um I don't agree with a lot of the things I mean I don't quite understand the the comment about the Taj Mahal whether we think it's the Taj Mahal right so I don't quite understand that I agree with that we think that um this is a uh a right-sized building with no extras in it it's what it's it it's all all I need there's no extra space in it it's not so it's it doesn't have extra features in it you know my apologies David I was um projecting our opinion on yours so the Taj Mahal phrase is is us not the if I were trying to speak for the select board they would not use that term so you're so the the the feeling behind that was that the select board is going after I was editorializing I apologize okay DAV I believe we sorry go ahead go ahead no no please so I I mean I I I think you know from my point of view you know we were certainly not trying to so first all of our discussions are completely public there in open public meetings we've discussed the details of the building in many public meetings they're all open and available and you can go watch them um so you don't have to imagine too much uh what what we think um that I think we think this is a uh everything here is is a neat it's not there's no you know anything smaller than this is not responsible so they got it right they got that key Point yes and I think a lot of things on the uh you know I there's a few things on the their first sheet which I think are are not correct but which are they can we I'd have to go back and and get the the list again but um the most of things on the second sheet I think are are right so there's one I didn't recognize the electric future is that it's too early to design because everything might be Electric in the future is that what that no oh so that that that's our our current law here we we we we can't use fossil fuels in new construction and I believe I believe we've come across the true Crux of the problem here I believe we have found the root cause of the diametric disconnect between these two boards everything in this project they believe is a need and we are saying Point Blank we disagree with them we disagree with them on covering every piece of equipment we disagree with them on the TR we disagree with them on the truck wash so way you just said covers everything we disagree with okay I'm I'm being in polite because I'm trying to be respectful of you're not missing the Bruins that and I talk too much thank you whatever you want to run home for um the other thing I picked up on um that I think is structurally accurate is um that the select board um you know we're we're we we have Town staff uh working for us we have we get a lot of information we have relatively easy access to the town manager so there's um there's a and and and the and the finance committee doesn't um you know and I get that frustration that you write memos asking for things and it takes a long time to get information and you often can't get information answered right at your meetings because there's nobody there with the answers um so um I get how that can lead to this big disconnect where um you know the select board's been following the detail of this project for a while you know pleased with it since it's you know we're a scary it's scary the cost is scary um but we've been connected the whole time and you guys are often um out of the loop and feeling out of the loop and that that can lead to um Jason don't don't jump across the table do you want to just say a sentence of what you're thinking how dare you boil this down to we don't get it we've been VI this we've been viewing this since last summer where we said this is too large a scope and not the right time when we ask for questions to be you need tell when we ask for questions and we don't get answers that is for us to for us to pursue to say that we don't understand or that we don't have the accurate information you're right we don't have the accurate information we have the information that's presented to us okay I'm jump in Jason I'm going stop you right there um Jim I think you were trying to be conciliatory there let me State the obvious um with the uh 46 years of Massachusetts Municipal structure experience that I have as someone who's worked in every kind of organization there is all across the country Fortune 100 at DC agencies the whole kitten kabo the most complicated Finance I think is Municipal Finance particularly School Finance but Municipal I also think there is an inherent tension between the fincom any fincom and any Board of Selectmen the things I'm hearing some of the things I heard the first month I arrived in Acton I never lived in a Massachusetts I I've never been around Massachusetts governance before these tensions are there um elected appointed staff not staff respond to us don't so all I can ask at this point is that you put that down as true as it may be from your Viewpoint and that to get any any chance of getting anywhere going to have to figure out a way to just get past that stuff um being on a fincom is a brutal task in terms of you don't get as you may disagree you don't get the public censure as often as these guys do I think but you operate half the time you're an advisory reward first of all you don't have authority that's no fun and you and in fact when people ask me about acting I tell them that the fincom has more power here than any town I've ever been around you may have a different experience but that's my experience um does it have as much power as it should that's another question so um here's what uh I would like to ask right now which is something Jason mention I think Jason mentioned from the last ALG meeting that Joanne ran I was out of commission uh um what's the worst case here you don't agree you just don't agree on anything you you don't have a proposal to bring that you agree on to bring to town meeting okay not 43,000 not 40 not 20 not you know aent erected on July 4th nothing you don't have any what's the worst part of that what's the worst consequence um can we talk about the taxpayers for a minute I think the worst case scenarios is that a lot of people find that we cannot afford to live here and they keep seeing the test Bills going up and that's a lot that's the concern that we heard from the lening sections so uh the the worst concern is coming up with something that is not affordable so not coming up at all is better than at least for now is better than something that's not affordable is that fair again we're not arguing we recognize the need like we recognize the need but is this the only way to do it is this the only scope to do it what concerns me is that if you're looking at the cost estimate two years ago and then you see the cost keep going up when the kiss cost to keep going up the thinking that we had at the beginning might need to change just like um ordinary taxpayers ordinary families make their decisions they think there's a need to have a four bedroom um apartment yeah but when the cost keep going up they might need to think about Alternatives they cannot you think the taxpayers in Acton can get what they need I don't think so yeah so what I'm what I'm the point I'm making is that um Alternatives um when the cost keeps going up Alternatives okay give me let me give one more one one more point I want to make um just like I I I look at the documents that on from the project uh website and then and then one idea that has been um raised by meeting and the S B has responded is that um that's not possible to to Outsource some of these story or the maintenance uh to a private sector because the cost of that annually is per square footage how how much a year now when we see the construction cost keep going up and the going wage keep going up I maybe it's time to revisit other options um it's just all the needs and the budget consideration should come together thank you so um there's another uh um great and and I hate to use the word political but there's another political consequence that I think some of us are concerned about yeah back in the 1990s 1993 94 through 99 there were four failed overrides and what we have I think a concern with is the let's just throw it out there and we can always if we get lucky it passes and if it doesn't then we'll fall back and come back with something different has a um potential we can't prove it so you don't want to go back to that Pol political place where you can't get most anything past Bingo okay I'm going to ask other anyone else want to worse consequence of not agreeing so I don't think it's just the failure at town meeting it's the failure and complete loss of trust of the public right because if you and you think oh we'll just bring it back next year things may be different okay but it's a similar to to Greg's point you know if you've just lost the trust of the people in the process you've got angry constituents lining up at the mic to talk about how they hate the proposal they'll never vote for it then it's it's just not I'd want to put something I for has a chance right that has a chance that I'm proud of that I could justify I know that we don't all have to agree on what's put forward but that's what I would like that old Congressional thing you don't bring no votes something you don't you're not sure will pass you wait until you get the votes okay thoughts on what's the worst consequence of not getting a project going that you can all present you can agree on to present okay well the first thing I mean the first consequence is just the voters decide we don't decide the voters decide so you're saying that's not that's not necessarily I think that's pretty Democratic right that's not terrible I don't I don't I I'm not afraid of that okay Point taking FR in in fact I was in one of their list right um I I agree with that um okay and um and and the the the worst consequence for me is that um you know we we don't build an adequate building right and and then what do we do I mean it's it's the situation is pretty dire you know we've um held off for a long time on this um to try to give you know Financial space for things um the you know we decided in 2022 uh with a study committee what the general scope of the project should be town meeting voted for the design for that scope um the next year of $ 1.2 million uh we fulfill the design of that um if now we go back to them and say oh you know oh we're not doing this you guys spent $1.2 million we're just going to throw that out and um and then come back two years later at $6 million more I think that's not acceptable right um and so that's to me the worst case for taxpayers I see you Christie was there someone on the among the Selectmen I don't know if this is appropriate and I'll go through you Bart but I did see uh several finance committee members at the tour at the DPW on Saturday and I just wanted to get a feeling from them what kind of working conditions for our employees do you think that the current DPW it has holds I would love to know how about if you I don't know if I phrased that very well if you don't mind given the time y would you say what you think the condition would you describe the conditions and we can see if people agree is that all right Fran I can describe the condition as um a building that is so overdue in its life expectancy I see ceiling tiles that might fall at any moment I see unsafe conditions for the people who provide services to our town not adequate space not Locker space um I I see I learned there was an infestation of feral cats that they had to deal with there's an infestation of rodents I just think I I just think we owe it to our town employees it's a a municipal building I mean if you so unacceptable Health completely and working conditions and safety I imagine is part of that or yes would you add safety okay so without getting in a discussion of that right now because that's the weeds that we don't have time for um I [Music] uh here's what I think um consensus is a I'm going to just keep going because it's 20 after 8 and if after I speak my piece if you want to jump in give you a minute um it's let me ask this is there anyone here who thinks there's much chance of reaching any agreement on anything in time for both boards to feel they can move forward is there anyone who feels there's even a fair amount of Hope Kristen so that's one we got one may may I ask a question about that it's not quite an answer all right go ahead um would understanding each other's positions better count for that I I don't think we're there yet but I think we have a chance to understand each other where we're coming from to out of this meeting um to advance us further but I don't think we are there yet okay so um generally on a you all know the consensus is for tough issues and um the reason it's tough is because there's not agreement and they're important issues and people don't want to give up what they feel needs to happen and the general rule of thumb in my experience is that uh if both sides aren't feeling a bit desperate desperate about what if we don't agree there's no chance of reaching consensus right now I don't hear a lot of I hear anger I hear frustration I hear cons worry but I don't hear desperation about oh my God we got to find an agreement here the a ALG grew out of desperation from I remember it as Nancy Taver who was to tears in 1982 um that there was no way I ever going to get town meeting to pass anything if the boards were fighting her exact words I think is if we don't get along how do we expect the town to get along and that's when the whole things started so um I'm going to try to bring this to a close and here's the homework for you whether I'm present or not on this subject um which I'd be glad to be well not 100% glad but I'd be willing to I mean it's a tough it's a tough subject I do like taking talking about equipment though but we haven't talked about equipment very much so that's not satisfying that itch um I want you to talk among yourself about whether you think there's enough desire to bend um in order to reach some kind of an agreement because if there's the desire for bend the the willingness to bend is not going to come out of desire to bend the willingness for bending is to come out of desperation we got to come to town meeting with a joint proposal I see you Christie and so you need to decide that CU if you know Fields there then I don't want to waste your time that's my observation anyone have a question about that okay the discuss I mean I think this discussion it would have been great if it happened in September I think most everybody agrees on that I see that there's communication potholes between the two boards that's not new I think it's built into the system I don't look for blame for that um Dean and Fran it might make sense for you to let this board know that any request should come to one specific person just to make sure you know they know who they should hold responsible to get an answer um and no extraneous phone calls or pieces of paper because it's too easy for things to get lost it's just it's just too easy so um I just wanted to just speak to the tour that's okay for sure go ahead a couple seconds um I had never been to the building um and I had listened to multiple presentations about the dire need of the building and the uh I have a completely different impression after walking through it um I I thought the building was falling down down um and I different impression I I and the Staffing I agree that the Staffing is that is there is in not ideal situation but I don't think the staffing needs to be there as well they didn't weren't always in the same building historically and okay and and I also feel that um companies today don't build office space for staff anymore because there's plenty of office office space around so I I there's there's a lot of issues with the building um but I don't like I my impression of the building was actually better after than I walked through it because I I saw the images of the cracks and everything and I it it looked like a good structure to house equipment yeah but it was terrible for staff so your your important point just points to how the need and the want is like if you didn't see the need then how are you going to support the that it's a need it may be obvious sorry to you friend but the problem is can I just interject you said it you felt it was fine for equipment but not for staff that's correct right okay and that's what but I don't think the staff has to be I don't think you need to build a spot for staff I I think you could there's Le a lot of other alternatives for Staffing it might be the ideal but you're saying you don't in your experience you don't think it's essential I think it's I think it's essential to fix the Staffing situation but I don't think it's essential to build a brand new building for the staffing okay so so I suggested the homework is to decide whether you think there's a a chance and the way a chance of a jointly supported proposal design a jointly supported ask for 43 million or whatever it is that's the first order of business if there's not then I wouldn't waste any more time on it however if you're willing to keep going and we can find a way to squeak the time out I don't see why not just give it the college try meet again but that's the first thing is you got to feel like uh there's some chance that there's you know if you feel like the voter should decide and there's a reasonable chance they'll pass it then I would wonder if you're motivated to reach a consensus that's not a criticism it's just a statement of human condition chrisy and then Steve um I have perceived a decline of respect between the two boards over the last year or so and would be concerned that if we do not discuss this further and attempt to understand each other further that that will continue part of my hope for having this meeting was to have open discussions I know that we don't like what we've heard from each other necessarily but I think it is to the best benefit of everyone in Acton that these two boards be able to have a difficult discussion with significant hearing on both sides I don't it it is not clear to me that I've heard a lot of not just listening but hearing each other tonight okay and Steve yeah I was going to say that um it was not my first tour is probably my fifth um and I'm kind of with Scott the the maintenance area is messy uh I did Finance work for a lot of manufacturing companies and all maintenance areas are messy um but I also I don't go back far as Dean on this one but there was a study a couple of studies done 2012 2013 one was about space needs for all the buildings in the town one was on the conditions to the building uh the space needs guy um cited a lot of the same things we're talking about now uh he said it was too small they needed more vehicle storage I don't think his calculation was right then um but he said you should just build a separate little office facility uh and get the people out of the same building where the maintenance is being done and then use that space for more vehicle storage uh if I drew Drew up a little picture of it actually um and he's he suggested a three-sided open garage like we have at the police station only taller um for the um vehicle storage again but he wasn't talking the kind of vehicle storage we're talking so when I hear you talk about the health concerns you know um well I heard that in 2013 are they that serious that we haven't done anything about them or are they not that serious um as far as rodents i' suggest you call the board of Hell Fran because they'd shut down any other facility in town if that was the case so okay um I'm just saying if we go back to something like that I'd say there's a possibility we could get there but that's not what I'm hearing so I I'd just like to respond back uh on that point because it keeps coming up um that particular plan was not actually done by what I would call legitimate Architects they were done by interior designers it frankly was a fundamentally flawed study that was done um under the offices of a previous Town manager and I could see the problems that were going on with the misunderstanding that those folks had of the entire process however at that time I was still on staff here so I was not did not have the opportunity to speak frankly but frankly the best way I could describe that study is  thank you well they did thank you for your participation but um I wasn't trying to defend the study I was trying to say they agreed with what you're saying but uh nothing was done with it so 13 years ago we knew we had a vehicle storage problem and we knew had an air quality problem and nothing was done so Dean congratulations on being in a chair where you can now speak up after living here for a certain number of years um all right can I just say FR one one more thing um so what I'm hearing is cost period that's really the bottom line it it's actually a cost as um outcome but here's let me let me share this Insight that is 12 hours old and I haven't even shared it with my colleagues yet we got numbers on uh comparables Wednesday night I wasn't able to analyze them yesterday because I was attending Dean's presentation at the senior center on the DPW building so I finally got my chance to look at the numbers today what I found was if you look at the 20 comparable communities that they have right there what you'll find is two of them are from New York and you'll find Rockport is in there twice and you will find that the number for Arlington is not consistent with what the Town of Arlington says the square footage of their facility is so okay but let's put this way hot off DE press I'm going to consider that just numbers that can be fixed but what I did was run the population of those communities down one list and then I ran the road miles for each of those communities down the list and did a ratio and it turns out Acton is 20% what we're proposing is 20% above the norm even considering some of those communities like Arlington have a population of you know 46,000 yeah yeah yeah so okay so my guess is one of the questions you asked at a previous meeting that I thought was perfectly valid what's our number my guess is if you knock 20% off we're in the ballpark we got it we got it right there thanks for coming congratulations okay so what I'm hearing is people actually do want to Christy I see you people really do want to talk about this but it's frustrating the heck out of you and you're not sure it's going to get anywhere um so you got to decide the parameters for deciding are um do you think that uh members of your grp group and members of the other group see the alternative to agreement as bad enough to push you all to do something that's distasteful which is except compromise because that's that's what it's about um and I'll note it's obvious there's a lot of frustration a lot of anger um it's very familiar looking to me the last from the last time I was in acting uh I remember the act in fincom as being in constant state of turmoil and frustration with the select board that's how I remember it 25 years ago 30 years ago when I arrived I was told the school committee gets anything they want in this town and then the board gets to the Selectmen get to pick up the crumbs and that was now we're going back to 1979 right when there were no sidewalks to speak of when the sewer project which was declared a emergency in 1948 when they bought the Adam Street property 1948 had not been authorized this was 1979 and it took another what 15 years or whatever it was to so projects here have always taken a long time I don't think that's unusual um and we I'll never forget the person who stood up at town meeting I don't remember who it was who said well I in my professional life just designed a sewer system for Cairo so I'm going to tell you about sewer systems that that to me wrapped up act in there's always expertise that you didn't expect and you may not want but it pops up just when you think you're getting somewhere so this is all to say I'm sympathetic to what you're facing you need to decide but don't fool yourself unless you're really going to give up something you're not going to reach agreement and you need to decide the political questions which Allison brought up about trust uh and whatever I mean I think a lot of people brought up good I appreciate your willingness to uh bring things up uh Kristen I've been putting you off forever go ahead um I just wanted to respond quickly to what France said because for me it gets to the the Crux of the issue um for me it's not about cost it's about affordability and I'm Happ to exp further or that's succinct enough okay that that's interesting I can understand yeah important distinction yeah Frank get okay are we ready to stop thank you for your patience um your tax dollars may be out there at work sanding the road take care thank you you're welcome thank you everyone we calling for a motion motion to all those in favor of adjourning say I I and Christie chrisy we got to do a roll call Christie hi gang hi Karen hi I I I I I I I move to a journ second all in favor I