##VIDEO ID:vNDJrNQJivA## [Music] good afternoon everyone today is Friday October 18th 2024 is 1:15 p.m. is there a motion to call the meeting to order so move second all those in favor I this meeting will be audio and video recorded please rise for plge delance pledge algian to the of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivis liberty and justice gentlemen only one item on the agenda today we're here to discuss green communities grants in regards to school building management discussion um review of matters presented votes may be taken uh we have Patrick McIntyre from the school he's the school's business business manager here to uh answer our questions and go over any information um we do have a serious amount of information that was given to us um that I'm sure there are going to be questions on um so if you guys have any questions by all means fire at Patrick um to start I would like to mention some times and dates um the current green community's competitive grant program the block that this would be affected was opened October 7th at 9:00 a.m. a.m. and ends today October 18th at 5:00 p.m. so today is the deadline for this grant to be submitted with that being said Patrick would you like to step up to the podium thank you chairman Hy the microphone that's all right I didn't talk about uh board select thank you for having me um you know I was requested to be here to help answer some questions um as we know this is related to the decarbonization an indoor air quality and Environmental Quality uh project that we're we're working on over at the school district specifically a kushna Elementary um while that discussion is ongoing there's been concerns about the the price of an anticipated project and we're doing our due diligence to bring everything to the table that could bring that price down um we met I think this past July with the Town Administrator um Miss tarez and chief Farland as well as the the regional rep of green communities over here in this building to talk about the grant what would be applicable um and how we can put our best f for best foot forward to applying for it and here we are um ready to submit um by the deadline I know we had this information over to you last week um and now all we're really waiting for is the approval of you gentlemen here so so Mr McIntyre and second a couple of questions over and you did uh give me some information that kind of shed shed some light on it um but for full transparency maybe we can go back over those so one of the items that I want to bring up here is it looks like first of all the 4.2 was actually a little higher than what it came in so right now just to confirm the total price of this project that you sent just so I'm making sure I'm reading this correctly was BAS basally 3.5 so I just want to clarify so the project cost is still estimated at $4,800 it was rounded to 4.2 initially um to cover contingencies if they run into other problems that would have been the again the ceiling which was what was asked for for the town meeting warrant and articles um that being said we did anticipate energy incentives which are in process right now to the tune of $525,000 um I think is the m and then there's some other components and then so that would bring it down to the 3.5 with this $500,000 Grant if awarded it would bring the overall project cost to approximately $3 million okay second question I have in the literature you gave us involving the grant it specifies that the town has to show the capability of the option to have 20% 25% of the cost so so it's mean whether it's Bond Cash correct so it's a competitive Grant with a matching component if we were awarded the grant they want to show a good faith that we'll push our foot forward invest in the project up to the amount of 25% so you know it's not that we're finding all sorts of Grants combining them all together and then kind of getting this project in place and not really investing as the town if you would um so those funds can be raised you know via debt exclusion financing um Reserve funds whatever's out there I I you know in the notes a fig sale fundraiser you know whatever it takes they don't care so as long as we we match 25% so going through your figure sorry interrupt but going through your figures like you said the the the estimated project is $4,840 180 Yep they're allowing that 25% to be calculated based on the in after the in after the incentives after the incentive so the match would be about $885,000 $884,000 um and that would be the maximum again just based on our understanding so far of this project and if it were to go forward we would be well above that maximum anyway yeah um you know we can get as close to it as possible by looking for other grant opportunities along the way and other means to finance it but at the end of the day if if we were to cover all costs we would actually have to cover at least $884,000 of In-House money to apply for a grant no this is if a if awarded in the project is is uh contracted and and moved forward with so and even if so if the figure again of the project changes between now and then this 25% match I imagine will fluctuate got that all comes after the award which I tried to talk about that timeline for you guys based on block one um it took from May to about where are my notes Here block one took approximately 4 months so if we to calculate block two due today takes 4 months to award um and then at that would take us to February 2025 and then 180 days to execute a contract for the grant um 180 days would take us till August so on the same timeline as block one we wouldn't be looking to do anything until August 2025 as far as securing or matching or whatnot so the town isn't obligated right now there's no obligation put a reserve fund of $884,000 correct just to apply correct so it's only if we are awarded this yep and then well I I had a feeling you're going to Parlay into your next question that was is there a penalty if we apply for the award we granted the award we don't move forward with any project there is no penalty they'll revoke the funds or we'll you know volunteer them back to them so they can go to another Community but um there will not be any fines or penalties to us for not accepting the award question so when you say it's a competitive process mhm what's the what is the criteria like is it based on need do they do air assessments do they do their own independent evaluation of the need green communities yeah or is it just based on so it's all in the P um we could get really technical with it but ultimately what it's based on is we're going for the decarbonization side of the grant you know projects that decarbonize 100% so go from fossil fuels to completely electric are you going to get priority um they're estimating we would cut cut down on fossil fuels by about 45% in the schools so you know if 100%'s the top application and we 45 they're going to take take is this for the AC piece of it this is for this phase one that we're calling it which covers the the building envelope controls so on so forth It's all kind of okay the total project it's it's all together because you don't really want to do one without the other and have nothing but what we're Ling for is the decarbonization piece which is the heat pumps Mr chairman Mr G while we're on decarbonization so I was just read through this pretty quick there was quite a bit of information it says here I love when packets aren't numbered but so I can't it just says decarbonization by shifting from oil F fired heating to Electric fired heating the project supports the common Well's goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 31.6% you use the number of 45% where's that number coming for versus what's inside of here 45% for our school consumption 31.6% is the state school okay so the problem when people talk about decarbonization is you're talking about less relying on what we have in our elementary school which is oil oil fired um heating systems right what are we what are we talking about decarbonization how we get into that goal because you're going to Electrify which with heat pumps which we all know how much electricity costs gone up so there I don't see how you're going to save anything in energy costs and decarbonization is so where you get your electricity sources from right and most of those energy sources the majority of energy sources in this country come from oil powered oil fired um U electric generation stations in uh natural gas right and some scattered C fire plants um in some nuclear right so if if you're using more electricity are you really decarbonization or are you not because you're using more electricity so they have to produce more electricity which is putting carbon into the air right so it's kind of when people talk about decarbonization I don't know if everybody realizes what they're talking about when they talk about decarbonization because just because we're saying we're going to electricity you're getting that electricity generated from an oil fired plant or a g natural gas fired plant or a Coal Fired plant right and that's where the majority of carbonization comes from so is it realistic to start throwing numbers around and making it try to make it look good right as far as decarbonization goes because we're really not decarbonization by 31% or again this goal of 31% that's that's that's it's always a hypothetical right and I know that the big oil companies and gas companies that do generate power um are already doing their carbon capture um Technologies and they've come a long way with that right so probably will reduce by hundreds of thousands of metric tons of carbon over the next decade so I when we use more electricity we got to remember where we're getting that electricity Source from right it's it's a state incentive they're incentivizing this program they're incentivizing decarbonization it's the maximum Grant you can get out of this program our project fits the bill I'm taking advantage of what's out there to to bring the cost of this project down they're you know they're pushing it for a reason green communities is pushing it for a reason we belong to Green communities as a town for a reason so we're fitting right in with their initiative okay okay I believe one of my other questions that I had asked you Patrick I'm in the the P this green communities pamphlet here yeah those were just my notes but that was highlighted from the correct um on the last paragraph in red before the project was listed here MH says proposed projects cannot be significantly changed the funds would need to be exclusively used for the intended purposes stated in the application and it does reference the vrf heat pumps decarbonization building Control Systems building envelope Improvement duct stealing air purification which brings me to my next not really question it's more like a statement so none none of us are on you none of us are against fixing the school problem but we also have a very challenging job of making Mak sure that the town can do it and the residents aren't completely affected so we're always brainstorming we're always giving each other ideas through the Town Administrator on possibilities for what if this doesn't happen the project itself so my question is let's just say because let's call it what it is the only possible way the town is going to be able to fund this is via debt exclusion we've done the maap on the bond unless the school can absorb up to $300,000 in their operational budget without increasing their operational budget it's going to be really hard to bomb us out and I don't we we've run the numbers a bunch of times and it just doesn't make sense so if this wasn't to pass at to first of all on the ballot so it doesn't even get to town meeting M we're still trying to figure out a way where we can attack some of these issues we applied for this grant we're awarded this grant M but we have to take this in stages because that's the only way that the town we we come we do the math we figure out our option is look at this fix this problem we have all this grant money technically we're just removing would you say that say we pulled out and we were just concerned with the building envelope the first part we wanted to seal up the building do that and we use part of this grant money we still hold on to the rest of the grant money to be used towards any of this other stuff or is there an expiration date where if we're given this Grant and we don't use it in a certain time period Then we're penalize for what we did use or we lose the rest so the P states that there's a threeyear threee threeyear timeline so again that's after signing into contract and and breaking ground or whatever the phrase would be in this case ultimately the projects whatever the project is being applied to this grant that three years from the date of start starting and I can't say it officially but from what I've heard from the green communities and the rep representation from Green communities is that if you're making a good faith to continue the project and it was slowed by other things that the 3 years would potentially be flexible as well Mr chairman Mr gas based on the comment that you just made it's the the green energies Grant if you're not doing things associated with green energy which to build an envelope and things of the like I don't think would be part of that it would not be subject to that Grant correct so that's where my concern would be is if we do those others but we don't decarbonize because a part of this P we're applying for the decarbonization piece there are other this does check the boxes for the other components of this grant to a smaller tune I think $200,000 for building envelope for um system controls duct sealing air quality uh Mr W so I'm just looking at the packet from Green communities yes right page nine section three is it the DOE one yeah right that one you should have a I don't have that right so section have it all here so now on page 10 right so no for request to fund measures as part of the Energy savings performance contract please explain whether measures would be included da D so it says building envelope improvements m is that what you would be applying for that piece because the reason I'm asking the next section is heating ventilation and air conditioning and in order to qualify for those grants so you have to have done building envelope improvements so if you look if I'm if I'm reading it correctly yeah I think you have to scroll up to the I'm just trying to find it for you before I miss speak here yeah it says building envelope improvements are so section four what you're reading from is section three MH um which is let me get back to it traditional energy conservation measures in existing buildings the grant is of lesser value again that would drop the grant award down to um $225,000 what we're applying for is section 4 which again is specific to decarbonization so though our project does check the boxes within these other sections we're really going for the big prize of the decarbonization piece cuz where I'm getting at is if you just use this as sort of a a road map M what the what the even the grant process is suggesting is you've got to do the building envelope before you can go to the well that's why we it's all together I I wouldn't advise to do one without the other that's why we're calling it a phase one because as you start doing you don't want to put controlled air into a building where it's still leaking all over the place and the building OB right so my point is like as a town why wouldn't we follow the same road map which is let's do the envelope first which we would with the 500,000 let's just do the envelope first assess the impact and then determine whether or not we go forward with like we've already based on what we've seen from you it's already been it's already pre been predetermined that you need H vac and those other improvements but what I'm suggesting is we do the building envelope improvements first hard stop see what the impact is and then decide whether or not to go for what's the most expensive piece of this it's yeah unfortunately it's not how we applied for the grant change application Grant as side I'm looking at this as a road map right because they're suggesting in order to qualify for heating ventilation and air conditioning you've got to prove that the building has been that the envelope has been taken care of so you can't even you couldn't even apply for in this section three heating ventilation and air conditioning unless you've done the I mean they're almost suggesting a multi-step approach here which again I'm build and it says building envelope improvements are a prerequisite for applying for agback improvement I think what we're saying is the same thing though right we're take we are attempting a heating ventilation and air conditioning project which we need to address the building envelope our heating venting an air conditioning project just happens to also qualify for decarbonization because we're removing the fossil no I get that Patrick but I'm so it's the same order though take the grant aside what was presented to us by the school department in TR sure was a all-in project building envelope HVAC and the request was for several million dollars correct yes so it's already been predetermined by the school department and the the um uh the consultant that we need H Val it's already been predetermined what I'm suggesting is if we just do the building envelope improvements first as a we say you know what yes we can do that see what the impact is and then decide whether or not we go forward because I I think we might be able to potentially handle the building Improvement the envelope improvements without having to go to the taxpayer without having to go you know for a dead exclusion vote I think we're just kicking the can unfortunately fair enough but I'm just going by what a roll here they say I understand if you want to be eligible for HVAC heating and all this stuff you have to demonstrate to us the state that you you've done building envelope improvements and if you haven't done that then we don't even want to hear from you about HVAC heating and all those other things uh that's that's what it's saying right so Mr chair get this out take another set of eyes no I got it yeah I I didn't have this um I just got that so I'm not trying to be argumentative I'm just trying to I'm here for the grant the project is for review by the finance committee um you know it's it's been months and months months of Engineers of all capacities to assess and identify the problems and we've come up with what our proposed solution would be I'm trying to reduce that burden for the town via this grant which is what we're here to talk about that's fair our side of it though and we understand that and I very much appreciate the amount of leg work you put into this but I'm going to go back to what you just said about kicking the can we've had multiple conversations that this can's been kicked since 2004 correct so I went back looked at all sorts of information looked at all building Improvement requests going back that far and there hasn't been any so yes in theory what you're saying with Dave is kicking the can but we also could have solved this years ago and we've had that discussion the problem we're at and we're faced with right now is if we authorize this and we say yes go for it we're afraid that we're going to end up walking into a situation where this grant won't matter because we won't be able to use it because ultimately like I said we're all committed to fixing the building we're all committed to the health and safety of the employees the admin and especially the children all of us are committed to that it's the all-in-one package that is really hard for us to accept and it's not that we don't if we if I had $4.2 million I'd do it myself right now for you I can't do that neither town so when we go for a debt exclusion we have to make sure that the information isn't just to us it isn't just to Mr Kelly it isn't just the school the entire town has to to understand how this work and how it's going to impact them and ultimately it's the town who decides whether this happens cuz not only do they have to vote on it on a ballot they have to vote on in a town meeting if it passes the ballot so I think what Dave was ultimately trying to say is we also have to be cognizant of the fact that this may not happen so is there an alternate way to get there and even though we'd still technically be kicking the can as you say instead of kicking the can another 20 years we're only kicking it to the following year so we're looking at it as is there a way that we can do this still absorb some of this grant money and obtain some of this grant money even though this window for Grant is extremely tight considering it has today M we want to fix the building envelope okay next year we do the air purification next year now I understand the train project is an all-in-one All or Nothing deal that might not work for our community and our town I'm not saying it could work it might work but from a financial standpoint we have to be smart enough to figure out a second and possible third option to make this stuff happen MH it just might not happen in one solid project so some of the concerns with the grants are which you answered a lot this would be a great question for this say we applied for this grant but we can't have train do it because we can't get approval that town meeting mhm we have this grant now but the project is dead say we find another vendor that's willing to do the building envelope M can we use that money for that and then return the rest I think at that time we would have to cross the bridge with green communities bed on how this is written and what we're applying for could you apply for could you apply for we're not prepared to apply by 5:00 P p.m. today for the other piece it's it's written specifically to the savings of decard that's the part that stuck today is the grant deadline at 5 and you know to your other comments respectfully that's why it was table and is with finance committee for review to understand the financial impact right now we're trying to do what we can to reduce that at that point and we'll have conversations meetings um you know we're meeting October 29th we're attempting to with the finance committee chair I invite any of you three that are willing to participate um so that we can understand October 29th so we can understand what the impact going to be preliminary numbers at 4.2 were $68 a year from what I received from the Town Administrator and assessor Department per $500,000 home $68 a year might be something that the town's willing to accept and they might vote it and now I can bring that down even less by applying for what we're ready for right now with no penalties if we don't the money goes back and we say hey good try good effort what do we what are we losing help me understand what we're losing on on or why we would miss out on this opportunity it's not about what we're losing it's about not having to go back to a lesser fun next year because we can't do this directly and all due respect just because we got information about this and how the grant was going to be applied and all this stuff last week we've gone through this but we have questions yeah all due respect green and the Green community grant that window for Grant applications is far too small we'll start with that that'll take some of the burden off me throwing at you well so it's advertised well in advance hence why we met in July correct and again it was at as they get the biggest piece of the pie yeah which is why we're here you know why we we saved the meeting for the 18th I guess it's just availability was availability I we which is fine but this is why our hands are help me understand who made the decision that we wouldn't apply for the building envelope improvements but but applied for the decarbonization that's the package that train presented is all we can go backwards that back in July there was miscommunication about how this was going to be funded all together so you know we again we were trying to bring the cost down no matter what that's what I'm here so you're telling me TR our consultant had already started this grant app no nope so who wrote the grant who wrote the application me ENT train when um September okay so that's my question so in September when you guys sat down to decide what to apply for who made the decision that we would go for the decarbonization versus the building envelope opportunity uh we did as a team because that's what our project's focused on who was the team the school department and train all right so it was the school department and the train mhm got it okay that's all I'm trying to get at it's like you guys made a decision that that was in the best interest of the town and then putting it on our lap so the best interest of the town if I had known about this I would have said hey guys wait a minute I'm looking at the grants opportunities building envelope improvements are a prerequisite for applying for a back improv can I just clarify something back in July when we met with the Town Administrator and chief Farland it was about all of our projects and what could we reduce costs to the town we talked about the fire department's project can we lump it in can we make it and the answer was no so this was the opportunity and this is what we're applying for I mean again the alter is we rip this up we don't apply in town votes for debt exclusion anyway now there's $500,000 out the door we don't know what the next opportunity I I feel like I mean I don't know what's the term everybody's using now gaslighting is like you're you're putting it on us as if if we don't make this decision that we we're pissing money away and we're missing out on opportunity all I'm suggesting is look I'm reading a document that says cuz what I've been told all along is we need air conditioning we need air conditioning we need air conditioning in and it's pretty clear so for my standard is as a town official building it building envelope improvements are a pre prerequisite for me supporting HVAC improvements so I'm substituting applying for me that's my standard Mr CH and I'm not because I'm against HVAC well and it's not about cooling the air it's about conditioning the air it's not a luxury that we're going at after it's the combat who said it was Luc I just wanted to put that saying that again Patrick you're trying to I didn't say any one of you said that I wanted to say that out loud then why would you say it because it's applicable to the project why but why would you say it's luxury has anybody said can be misconceived that way when someone think air conditioning they think not me I look at Cost okay and I treat this school no different than I would my own home right or if I'm going to go for surgery guess what I'm do a lot of physical therapy before I decide I got to go to surgery okay so the building envelope Improvement is the first step in the process and we haven't done that yet to determine whether or not we need something greater than above and beyond building improvements we got one shot to ask for the dough and I want to make sure that what when what we're asking for is what we really need that's all right and what I was trying to communicate I'm not trying to Gasol I'm not trying to put words in anybody's mouth but the analysis concluded that building envelope wouldn't be enough that all these other components need to be done as well to address the humidity that is the concern that is what the data speaks to that's what the finance committee needs to now review with us with we ask for a joint meeting let's have a joint meeting with all the Committees and let's discuss the project we're here for a grant we can't amend it now between now and 5:00 p.m. to apply for building so you know we can throw it out and we can throw it out and wait and hope there's another opportunity for this sheet we haven't received a green Community Grant since July of 2022 it's it's an opportunity Mr we miss the gas so I think both of you Mr inkley and Mr W have brought up good points right and and when that presentation was being presented by train and whoever that other company was right for a lack of better terms I feel like the Project's kind of being slam dunked to the to the board of selectman right last minute thing and I and I understand there's been conversations with Town administrators and you just mentioned Fire Chiefs and I don't know why that's all part of the conversations back in July but when they put that screen up there I still remember the little gray box on the bottom right hand corner of that screen right there that I'm pointing to um it was roughly a million dollars I think for the build an envelope air purifying it was like $78,000 I wrote that down in my notes and I questioned all of that stuff right there little gray box so I think Mr Waz I agree 100% we look at the envelope and we look at the building the problems with the building and we addressed that for a million bucks I think that was a number on train thing whatever the above and beyond heat pumps HVAC I'm not I'm not convinced and we weren't part of the dialogue with train and whoever the other Consultants were I know I spoke with Mr Kelly um and I think Mr hinley mentioned once before that he he attended one of the meetings that we were they were supposed to be attending all of the meetings and I've had a conversation with the fincom chairman where he made the same comment I believe in public but I also called him and had a conversation with him where I think it was um Mr bue and M Delgado That was supposed to be representing fincom at these meetings and and they only were invited to one and then a bunch of other ones went off and I think the comment was made where you schedule them and the same night selectman meetings were being held this is pre-trained just to clarify oh was a pre-train this this was the first steering committee meetings at this point there hadn't been any conversation with the train we did hear I did hear about the train conversation and then whatever conversation happened after that between the Town Administrator and the school department that's that's fine so it'll all lead to the same thing right so it it just doesn't seem like the board of Selectmen in the fincom have been part of that process you know the ongoing investigation of the problems at the school I think that was the first mistake the schools have made is not having somebody right out of the gate alongside from the town to understand the project I surely can't speak on behalf of the project scope of the project because I I get things thrown around at me in you know the 11th hour and say hey look at this and you know I'm like I'm sitting around waiting for something to happen and I understand that you've been saying you've had a lot of other meetings but quite honestly Patrick I'm not fing you one bit I I appreciate the level that you're trying to take this to but and I and I don't believe I firmly don't believe it's your fault for the way this is transpired but it surely is somebody's right that town at least from my perspective sitting where I'm sitting none of this dialogues happened with me sir none zero it's they're coming in and here's your paperwork review it as best you can right I I just don't think that's fair for us to sit here and try to make a a good rational judgment on a project I understand the needs of a project but I also looked at it when I when they came in and I'm like okay so you know spending a million million two on the building envelope and in air infiltration and air purification and things of the like to do that sure great right that probably be an easy pill for us to swallow and solve that financial problem right um but when you start jumping to three three and a half $4 million whatever it is there's no way that we could wiggle our way out of that right without a dead exclusion I just I don't know enough about how the analysis was done based on all the evidence that was given to train and whoever the other company is that was working with train to come to this determination that all of these things need are needed right and you talked just now to selectman W about luxuries and air conditioning then you then you Chang I believe you changed the verious to conditioning air there's two different that's two different things right air conditioning is different than conditioning air in my opinion right um so we don't know what the difference between those two systems would be right um I I I understand what yall saying when you say you know some people are saying it's a luxury right and why do you need air conditioning I've heard enough I've heard from enough people now going we're going to really spend $2 and5 million dollar on air conditioning for schools that have been there for 50 years plus and we never needed it before I get that I mean you don't have that much of a hot season that that's required so what what does that look like do we do we hire a different consultant to make everybody happy and bring in a different consultant and say look these are the problems that we have with the school everybody's going to stay out of your business just go in and do an analysis of the aush elementary school and you come out and you tell us what's needed to rectify that problem I don't know how the process was done with train and and these other people that are working with train to say if any of that was done and everybody else's mouths were shut not leading them to say tell them that this is what we need to do right we don't know that I at least I don't know that Patrick I don't know what everybody else knows I'm just I'm just kind of ba that were're hamstrung on sticking with train and and and sticking with this $4 million 3 and half million doll project where nobody seems to be that educated unless other than you and a few other people from the school on what's what was really done to get to this conclusion you follow me so with that being said yes I follow you but I can't reiterate enough that's why it was held we have from now until the ballot to educate everybody on this matter to have joint meeting to discuss for finance Community to review we have all those reports I don't want to sit and talk about the project the project the project when those meetings are still to be held I mean all of this has to go through the department of energy resources to be approved before train can even unscrew a bolt in our HVAC system so the state has to approve the specs the measures the analysis the the the functionality the whole nine so it's there's your independent consultant right there in addition to the one that we hired which you keep referring to as the other party we hired them in dependent of train to ask these questions to check Train's work to catch them on these things and these are all conversations who was that other company Beacon uh Beacon integrated Services all right so that's just just to clarify that's a good point of clarification Beacon was hired by the school correct to make sure that train was acting as the best behalf and for what it's worth the department of energy has taken a lot of the specific consultant that we have miss greenblat work and has used it to make model documents for this process she is the best of the best as far as I'm concerned so she is our checkin balance then the state is our check-in balance and then green communities is going to hold us to accountability they're a check-in balance but we need to have all those conversations you know to your point we do and that's why it's held and that's why we have till the April to figure this out but right now this grant is due yeah so I once again going back to the grant because I think we're getting a little into this which I don't mind because I like discussion and I like information but ultimately the question of the day is the green community's Grant is due by today correct we're going to go back to my initial question just for clarification we apply for this grant by 5:00 p.m. today we have to show that we're obligated to pay $ 84,3 197 doesn't matter how we get that $884,000 this passes as a debt exclusion we lose close to $900,000 out of our operating budget whether it's direct or we have a ban my questions are and once again I need to reiterate this just so I know if this passes if this fails all this information in all this meeting here for today just to clarify is to apply for a grant that we won't technically be on the hook for the $884,000 until the project starts until the yeah until the the funds are committed to the project and there's no penalties on the grant at all if we don't use it correct there's no penalties and just one thing I wanted to add if this does go debt exclusion to your point the debt exclusion will pay for strictly the debt to this project which includes that $844,000 so it won't come out of operating around there it the debt is the exclusion is in place solely to match funds of the project penny for Penny no more no less I just wanted to make sure that we weren't going to get stuck going into operating budget discussion this spring with $900,000 in the ho already no so that's just us checking a box on a grand application saying we're committed to putting $25,000 in whether it's a down payment or whether it's part of a debt exclusion 25 there's no difference there's no Penal either way as long as the town's saying verbally digitally that we're willing to put 25% of the value if we get 500,000 we'll contribute 25% and if we God forbid none of this happens because of it's voted down you return the funds or you don't exercise the grant we're not out 900 and we don't have to pay any penalties on the $500,000 gr correct Mr chairman Mr Gasper see how you just said what you said is let's go back to the original conversation I think it was maybe back in earlier September when this project was kind of thrown at the board of selectman right um to try to get to the September 30th town meeting we talked about I talked about you know if it's going to require a dead exclusion we got into that of who's telling you what remember me asking you that question right about about finances right um and you said well if we don't get it done and we don't get it approved at the fall town meeting then the Project's going to have to if I said what what what's a rush why don't we wait until the town election cuz it's going to be a dead exclusion you got to do a ballot question then 30 days later roughly 30 days later you're going to do a town meeting you said specifically then we'll have to wait till the following summer MH right yeah isn't that where we're still at now because that's where we're at as far as time frames for approval you wouldn't be able to get the the stuff ordered is your words in time to do the project this summer is that still on the table so it's a loaded question because it all depends on the supply and demand of the equipment at that point in time if there's a backlog in orders things like that um could they begin the other phases the envelope the duck ceiling things probably this summer but yes ultimately but again honestly that conversation was had because I wanted the opportunity to be presented so that the community could vote on it if they want to invest in one of their biggest assets in the town and get it addressed sooner than later that's was all that was I I think selectman hinkley's made the point I believe every time you've been in front of this board that the board of Selectmen are 100% willing to do something because it's been neglected long enough right yes and it's no fault of any of our because you weren't here a decade ago when the neglect was happening right um we we're not aware of everything that's happening in school department buildings right um shamon whoever was responsible over that time frame from whatever mtin Le said 2004 two decades ago right new Renovations so the reality of it is it should have been being addressed on a on a as needed basis so that out a $4 million project right none of our faults okay neither here or there but when when we just it was back God somewhere around 2019 we started discussing the school roof right and and I was part of that discussion back then I know you weren't here I know I know who was here it doesn't really matter who was here I'm just I'm going to inform everybody including you and everybody at home what was going on we had that discussion about funding the school roof right this board was very creative on how we were going to do that and not put a Deb exclusion on that taxpayers of a Cushing right we were very successful with that methodology that we use okay my problem is is if that school roof was being looked at back then and it was reimbursed by an msba Grand of 50 52% I think was the final number from msba Grand why the hell wasn't that envelope looked at to be incorporated into that Grant cuz that was 50 52% and it maybe it would have been that extra million bucks maybe back then it would have only been 700,000 and Asha would have been another 350 and we could have chewed that right off off and we would have that long gone right sure that's my frustration is people are doing things and I'm going to say it right here live on TV half ass right cuz that's exactly what happened and we went out and did a 2.5 roughly a 2.5 $2.6 million School roof when that envelope when those people were up on that screen and they were showing me that envelope that's the roof line that was leaking right it's all along the roof line cuz we don't have wood and brick above the windows okay well whereever in the windows and everything else it should have all been looked at then right and we can always look back but it's just part of my frustration on how people don't do do their job appropriately right and at the time we we we were there we were eligible for funding we got that funding what was another 750 then right it was it was a lost opportunity right I I don't know what the school needs Patrick I mean I know you've been involved with this thing but I can't speak intelligently to the public saying yep we definitely need all these little things that are that being recommended and yep we're going to decarbonize and I don't believe in that decarbonization thing for I just kind of explained that to you right but it's an opportunity to go after a grant and that's what we're using it for right and I I get it but what are we really doing with utility costs cuz electric electricity rates are booming right they're not going down they're going up they they just increase 30% last year we've seen it in all our town budgets right I don't know what you folks did in the school department but um we did pretty much 30% across the board isn't that correct Mr Kelly yes so it's just it's it just you want to try to be as financially prudent as you can be when you're doing this thing and and you we've I think this board has done a good job the town has done a good job in demonstrating to the public that we we do do our due diligence right and we don't put extra tax burdening on our taxpayers un necessarily I I just and we like to scope things down as much as we can and do things as effective as we can I I don't know that much about this project that whatever price it is right and I know we're talking about bonding but I'm looking through some of this stuff that's in these packets that have given to me and one of the person's roles the superintendent's role it says the role on the Personnel the superintendent will lead this project on the ground managing day-to-day operations and ensuring that all work is carried out according to plan responsibility supervise on-site activities including the work of contractors and subcontractors ensure compliance with safety regulations building codes conduct daily inspections to monitor progress and quality of work coordinate Logistics including the delivery of materials and Equipment serve as a primary point of contact for on site personnel and address any immediate concerns she doesn't have a construction supervisor's license she that it's it's not her superintendent that's the superintendent the construction superintendent okay well it doesn't say that just as superintendent it it above that addresses the team of kushit as the super these are the kind of things that when you're reading through things things don't stop making sense so it's you see where the confusion is I know and Dave Mr wer you apologize brought gaslighting you keep saying it was just thrown in front of you it was available October 9th it was shared I heard it was on the table since October 9th so it wasn't just thrown in front of you I know we're all busy I'm not saying that I expected everybody to go over you know Page by page so less than a week ago all of this was supposed to be digested by me with nothing else going on in anybody's lives narrative I mean a narrative there's a lot of narrative here guy I mean I got packets of everything in front of me and I just got new stuff that I never even seen all of this stuff was just and they said oh that was there it nobody said application but you put some on my desk but if nobody notifies me that's for me and we had this conversation last time so I I don't want to go down that road again just but my frustration comes from what you started with the neglect why why we all inherited this problem and that I feel I have done my due diligence not that it's all been communicated to the three of you you know fully again that's what we have until April now but I've cooperated through the budget process through we're picking up pieces I'm being fiscally responsible that's a part of my job for the schools and for the town so I just want to make that clear and that that's the frustration cuz it's it's taken a lot of work it's it's taken a lot of time um and I'm finding the best most thorough most complete solution for this so we don't have to go down this road again um you know next week we have an engineer coming in looking at the gym closet wall that again was identified in 2004 as leaking water on a report a written report that was presented nothing was done and now it's our problem I haven't asked for a dollar they're coming out they're doing test Cuts they're doing water intrusion test they're going to figure out what's wrong with it it it's you know we're being responsible I'm not asking for things that we don't have to ask for um and this to me is a complete solution given the time and the opportunity to present all that data to this team to the finance committee to the community members of this town so that they don't feel that you know their tax rates are being increased for no particular reason or a reason that they can't support ultimately it becomes their vote I need them to be as educated as myself on this project so that they can give an educated vote and agree to that and be happy with their decision right now again the opportunity to me was $500,000 to lessen that burden that we're assuming is going to be on the tax rate that's why I'm here it it's being fiscally responsible to what could happen if it doesn't nothing happens so I think you asked the question Mr chairman if we apply for the grant and we get the 500 Grand you can use that for just the building envelope piece of it is that correct I I don't have that answer because I fear that they tie in the decarbonization piece is it a sure thing I'm not sure could it say hey 500,000 we're not doing decarbonization what's our allowance to do a building envelope they might come back cuz I'm looking at I thought you said it was 225 for the building envelope if we applied to that section Grant at this at this point right now the particular application is for but who's who's to say they won't come back and say hey we gave you 500 for decarb we'll give you the 225 for the building envelope or turn the rest I don't know that's pointed that out is it's part of that that process right so if we if you the grant that you so the grant just like they renew every year right so it's not like you know we're going after this year's Grant we hope they R new every year but yes in the State of the State I don't know where the funding is going to go right I I I get that right but I I 100% agree with with select Mona was saying right part of that grid that I didn't see is you go down and you check off those boxes right we we we should be smart enough to say okay let's do that the building envelope let's apply for that as well in the Grant application right and get that chunk of money too you just kind of said it yourself so we should have done all chunks of what we need to be done and it seems like we skipped over the building envelope part and we jumped right to the green communities for decarbonization but it's it's in this grant thing that was just given are you to we didn't SK we didn't skip a part of the grant that we're applying for the building envelope component is a part of the grant we're applying for I got you so just for clarification I think what Patrick's trying to say and I think I'm understanding this correctly correct me if I'm wrong the reason why this grant was applied for is because the conversation was happening this whole project as a whole so you can't apply for building envelope Grant and the decarbonization grant correct the decarbonization grant which included the building envelope was applied for because it gave you the bigger chunk of the money correct so you can't in theory apply for both you could apply for both and receive $725,000 gotta it was one or the other and the Assumption was the greater Grant award was going to include the Lesser Grant award in the form of building envelope anyways corre so let's maximize this and get another 275,000 so ultimately if I'm believing this correctly no matter what happens we have months of discussion to actually go over all of this yeah coming forward as of today as of 5:00 P PM we apply for this grant if what Mr wer said whatever happens at town meeting or in the ballot whatever happens we are awarded the grant nothing happens nothing affects us directly except we have to wait another calendar year to apply for a different Grant if for some reason this didn't pass not awarded correct never correct there's no I just green communities hasn't advertised any future grants on their current timeline correct so I don't know if it will be truly a missed opportunity so what I what I what I'm trying to get my point across is ultimately this is applying for the grant is almost virtually impact free yes from the perspective that the town is not going to lose money just for applying to the grant correct because ultimately it hinges on Grant approval and it hinges on town meeting vote correct town meeting vote passes this through that 25% can be included in the debt debt exclusion if they vote it down we just tell the grant sorry we can't do this or if it is awarded to us there might be a possible way where we can say we're doing this this and this instead can we use this but ultimately and this is just for clarification because I think we're going to get into the Weeds on this the meeting today isn't about the project so much it's about the Grant and I just want the people that are watch or listening and along with this board and This Town Administrator everybody that know just for clarification no Financial impact to the town for applying for this grant the only impact would be if it was passed we just have to make sure we have a percentage involved which would include the debt exclusion anyway so ultimately there's no harm in applying for this grant is that what you're saying correct how much is the grant fall 500 500,000 potentially up to that would be they're saying that we need to do 25% of the project cost right that's that 800,000 he keeps talking about yeah whatever it is 900 Grand or whatever so I I I mean I've heard all the evidence at this point I don't have an issue potentially going forward with a Grant application but I want to make it clear as far as I'm concerned I want to see a concrete plan on the building envelope absolutely before I can endorse anything above and beyond that I'm sorry and I'm I'm using the the the requirements of the do's Grant application process as my as my road map so you know I have no problem moving forward with the Grant application if you get shot down then that's that gives us some data as well if you don't get the grant that tells us as a community we're not ready for prime time either right so um I don't you know it is what it is as long as my feeling is as long as there's no Direct impact to the town just for applying for a grant where we're on the hook specifically no matter what if this project isn't approved I'm okay with applying for the grant as well I will also firmly state that within the next couple of months with Finance review with the school committee we're going to drastically open up the line of communication for sure there will be multiple joint meetings involving this thank you appreciate that this way we can can all cuz all of us I feel like you put us all in a room we're all going to have different questions um and I think the only way to do this the right way is like you said and like I've said to you before and we owe it we owe it to the town and our taxpayers and our students to figure out a way to do this and we got to do it clean and we have to do what's best for the town and moving forward the dialogue stays open no matter what and ever since I talk to you you've made sure I was included on multiple emails and I appreciate that um but yeah I I me personally I don't have an issue with with applying for a grant that won't have any Financial impact on the town if we either a don't get it or get it but can't use it because this Project's turned down Mr Mr Gasper have you or anybody else from the school had a conversation with msba to see if there's any grants there we've attended the trainings and webinars and so forth that they've had and most of it has been towards new school buildings and windows and roofs um but recently the email just actually from a couple of days ago they they talked about heat pumps so we are attending the next webinar to see if there's future opportunity because I've heard that because I from what I understand air quality M HVAC heat all that stuff is an important issue it's an emerging issue with than education right and so I think msba is looking to address that yeah so it again it's specific the heat pumps and know how you feel again electrifying but this is what everyone's pushing I think the money we can talk about heat pumps and new technologies and all that stuff right everything's breaking down all this new crap and most of it's coming from overseas right we're dealing with a furnace and up pounding way building right now and it's only 8 years old right um and that unit came it's a it's a it was a local company but it's a European in internal po you know with the little jet stream thing that's running and B da not going to get into all that cuz of the cost of n over in Europe and everything else I think we need to stay dialed in and do the job that we're Tas to do and that's find as much outside money as humanly possible and you said msba would be talking about Windows well if that if that's part of their Grant then let's get Windows right because I don't know if the school windows I I know they some of them open up in the Ford middle school but I don't know if they open up inside the elementary school right they open up at both they they all the windows open up so I mean that's that's one way to to to get some air circulation in there opening up Windows whatever it may be if the windows are you know 25 years old there's money available Patrick and we can put new windows in right energy efficient Windows good for us if you know if it's grant money go after whatever we can right to to try to nail this thing down and I I think I think the more money we can get from outside sources the easier it's going to be to sell right so if we could take that number down we're talking about taking the number down by half a million dollars who knows where we're at in February right early March whatever it may be um before people need to go to the polls in April and and make this decision on what the amount of money is going to be but if we can knock a million and a half off the price that good for us right and we can demonstrate to the taxpayers that we're all working together and we're all working on the best interest of our constituency that's what we're supposed to be doing right none of this what was done sometimes years ago is the schools against the town the schools against the town and I think the more we can demonstrate that cooperation moving forward the better off we're all going to be including the taxpayers at home right yeah chair one last question so this project narrative yes that's what the this is the Grant application and those resp that's one piece of it that's the narrative piece of it um all right but you know I second everything that you just said I'm not resting I'm looking at every opportunity there's another one out there that it's just a notice right now of interest and we've already put our hat in the ring for that so for the record patri I I give you a lot of credit for what you're doing for the school department right I mean you really stepped up as a business administrator to take this on and you've taken that responsibility and you face some criticism right and you handle it very well and you're still sitting in front of the board of selectman taking it we're not trying to be it's it's not bad criticism right it's just it's it's it's it should could be um good it's it can be construed as bad criticism but the more we debate things the better off that better end result we're going to end up with right if we all just say yeah whatever we'll handle it we'll get you 4 million bucks and everybody sits on their lazy butt right that's not what we're here to do right just no we call it difficult conversations and you know they're productive though because everyone gets to share their concerns you know gets informed more and again I can't stress enough that's what we have from now until April and I want to make sure you guys know this project as well if not a good debate usually ends in a better result right perfect so let's let's just keep that model going is there a um is there a a school an elected School Committee Member who's running point on this project supporting you or are you just cuz here's what I'm saying Patrick Yeah I realize people are busy I feel bad for you that you're here alone I'll just leave it at that okay okay and it's always been my um when I have an elected board I have an issue I talk to the elected official I think there should be if there's somebody from the school committee who's a point person on this project I think that would be an important I'll communicate that to to the chairman but at the end of the day I know I know they'd be here in support if they could have been um there hasn't been a point person outside of the fact that it's just been the entire committee as a whole that we've been communicating maybe that's something maybe that's a um a breakdown on the process because I think it's unfair for you as staff to have to take our stuff if there's an elected official who can make sure that Mr Gasper Mr Hanley and I are getting the information say hey have you you do have any questions so on and so forth that might be a good this way you you're putting in you're put in a in a very difficult situation right but I applaud you for being here you're doing your job exactly I'm doing my job you know any tips and tricks I take into consideration again Mr Henley spoke about open Communications I don't think I've missed an email on him I'll take the same note to the school committee about hey we need better well not better we need more visible rep representation and direct communication with the board and and I and I don't doubt that it will happen look and in this process I mean when we did the school renovation we we brought in members of the community not The Hired Hands not the elected hacks yeah but we had you know maybe we get a lot of traits people a lot of people who know this stuff inside and out and you know maybe there's a piece of that to it as we're going through this reverse reverse you know review process yes absolutely again we anticipate much Community engagement presentation strictly for the community to ask questions and answers the whole nine and and any again any support or advice that you give that you think there needs to be more or less you know at a board of Select meeting we'll be here excellent Mr Kelly Mr chair chman uh the Town Administrator needs a vote of the board authorizing the Town Administrator to sign that letter that Patrick's talking about the application to the green community's competitive grant program it's a letter that the town is in support and will uh pledge a match of one quar of the total cost provided provided that the Deb exclusion is passed by T meeting voting is on the ballot and as well as town meeting that's not in it's a form letter for them that's not in we can I have no problem tweaking it but again if awarded there's a contract period where all of that will be reviewed by our general counsil your general coun whatever language that needs to be in there before we accept an award we need it now on this letter probably be right right because he the way he just said it is putting us on the hook no matter what and I think the chairman did a very good job of of d icting that element of the finance package that no matter what we're not going to be on the hook no matter what we're not going to be on the hook right for a number of things but the way Mr Kelly just said it it seems to me that the way he just said it is we're on the hook and I don't want to be on anybody's hook and I don't think any member of this board wants to be on the hook in case the project doesn't so it's all contingent upon like we've done in the past passage of town meeting and and and the uh ballot loral ballot so ultimately what Mr Gasper is saying is the motion today might not be exactly what your are submitted to the well are submitted to the Green community Grant authorizing as the CEO of the Town yes to commit that money ultimately I think when we were talking about it we broke down where if this doesn't work we're not on the hook CRA so I would say is there a motion to what do you want to how do you want to word this Mr Gasper motion to authorize the Town Administrator this is the letter that Patrick refering and I'll give you and again that was I drafted that quickly because we had nothing else and by no means does it have to be adopted by you guys but I need something from your team by 5:00 p.m. if this is going to succeed we can put the caveat at the end of the first paragraph have no problem with any changes contingent upon which will require a vote of town meeting and a debt exclusion Vote or something along those lines right y with contingent upon uh an affirmative vote for dead exclusion and an affirmative vote of town meeting yeah sounds good to me all right is there a motion to apply for the green community's Grant with 25% Town match contingent on affirmative vote on the ballot question and affirmative vote at town meeting on the debt exclusion on the debt exclusion so move second all those in favor all right thank you for your time you're welcome gentlemen anything else I do not is there a motion to rej so move second all those in favor ijed [Music]