Okay, please go ahead. >> Okay. So, u I'm going to call the uh town council meeting of November 6, 2025 to order. Um this is the uh town council
and outreach committee of the town council. And uh it's now 10:00 a.m. And uh so I um need to just remind everybody that this meeting is being conducted via
remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone. And uh we uh have made every effort possible to make sure that uh members of the public can uh be
fully involved um in real time in watching the meeting. Um and but I do also want to remind people that uh the meeting is being recorded. Um, and uh, that said, I'd like to make
sure that all of the members of the committee can hear us and uh, hear me and we can hear them. Bob Hegner >> present. >> And uh, Jennifer Tob >> here.
>> Councelor Ryan, >> I'm here. >> Council Lord >> present. So, all members of the committee are present and I want to uh welcome um since this there you see them on the
screen um Michael Gallow McConnell who's the facilities director for the schools and Chief Ting. Um we're going to quickly do see if there's any public comment to offer. Uh we're hoping that
um uh the chair councelor Shane who's chair of the uh uh elementary school building committee and has expressed concerns about um one of the issue the major issue of the day can be present
and we uh had um Guilford Moing had said that he would be here as superintendent of public works. So, um let's uh just see right now if there's uh any members
of the public um who wish to make public comment. And uh I see that um uh there's one person uh
I think it's uh and Mr. Anderson would like to come into the room. So please bring them in. Good morning. Um uh welcome and please uh feel free to make public comment about anything that
is um within the jurisdiction of the town services outreach committee. It does not have to necessarily be related to today's uh agenda. But um uh why don't you share uh for a few minutes
what you're thinking about, but first uh introduce yourself with your name and uh at least the district you live in. >> Yeah. Uh Jeremy Anderson, 34 High Point Drive in Ammerst. Uh thank you all so much for opportunity to talk about
safety at the schools. Um, my comment is about the Fort River uh intersection and and but also about traffic safety uh in in our community at large. And I I prepared something so I apologize if it sounds written. Uh I just wanted to make
sure I got thoughts out there. U so I wanted to start off by saying thank you to all the town council members who came out to cheer students from across Ammerst as they participated in the fall international walk, bike, and roll to school event last month. also like to thank Chief Ting and APD for providing
safety escorts for those students. In total, we had 138 students who registered for the event, but we had many more who participated along with their family members, caregivers, and supporters from the community at large who are dedicated to promoting outdoor education and making our streets safer
for children and all members of our community. Unfortunately, and despite the turnout, most groups that participate need to have escorts from APD because the roads leading to the respective schools are
unsafe for walking, biking, or rolling. Just like our new school building is an incredible statement to Ammer's commitment to being a leader in public education, please use the redesign of the intersections and roads leading to
the new school as a statement of what the future of transportation in Ammerst could look like. One that equally prioritizes walking, biking, rolling, public transportation, and not just private automobiles.
This redesign needs to include ADA compliant sidewalks. It needs to include separate and protected bike lanes and it needs to include lowered speeds past our school throughout the day. A redesign will cost money, but
thankfully there's money available from the state and from the federal government if it chooses to open up again that Ammerst could use through the safe routes to school program. Currently, we do not qualify for these funds at this time because we have not submitted a complete streets level two
priority plan to mass DOT and we have not finalized the bicycle and pedestrian plan. I know that these are on the town manager's evaluations which were just discussed, but please prioritize these submissions as soon as possible so we can build and fix our roads and make
them safe for children and all members of our community. I wanted to say there are other things that we can be doing while we wait for these to be submitted and some of these are are low to no cost and the town council as keepers of the public way could be pursuing them.
First, it we need to post school zone signs at our middle and high schools. These were approved by the town council and yet have yet to been posted. Talking with the Safe Roots to School Coordinator, there's no reason that they can't be signs purchased from any supplier, including Amazon, that could
be posted as soon as possible to keep our middle school and our high school school students safe. We can change the timing of the school zones at all of our public schools. The Safe Roots to School program recommends that they be active throughout the entire normal school day and that this
includes regular school sponsored before and afterare programs rather than the hour at the start of the day and the hour at the end of the day that they're currently active. They recommend this to give law enforcement officers more flexibility to pursue traffic violations
and to keep our roads safe for all community members. and they say that fatigue is not an issue in national studies when it comes to school zones. We could have the DPW install the dynamic your speed signs that were approved by the JCPC in the FY26 budget.
I don't understand why those have not been installed yet. We can also use other communities as models. Somerville, for example, used the 20 mph safety zone statute that the town council in Amoris approved last year to establish 20 miles an hour
throughout their entire community. That's something that we can do with justification and with the pursuit of the town council. We could also use the townwide 25 mph speed limit ordinance to identify densely populated neighborhoods and
lower speed limits in areas that might not qualify for safety zones. A final thing is we can paint median lines on all of our roads. Many of the roads in Amoris lack proper lines and this creates luxury lanes that allows people to drive far too fast and far too
regulously. Finally, please prioritize the safety of our children. submit the complete streets level two priority plan to mass bo do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do DOT and finalize the bicycle and pedestrian plan this year hopefully and use the redesign of the new school system to promote multimodal
transportation for generations to come thank you for taking my comments >> thank you Jeremy so I see no one else has uh requested to participate in public comment Dina have you been able to find out about what's up with Gil Guilford
I haven't heard back yet. >> Okay. Um I think that what we need to do then is just um go ahead. The other the third item listed on the agenda is review of town manager appointments. Uh we did receive um an appointment
uh within the last few days for somebody for the board of licensed commissioners, but um it's uh not necessary to take that up today and it's not listed specifically on the agenda. Um there
will be time at the next TSO meeting to take it up and still um get it back to the council before the 30-day deadline. So um that should be um all right. So, I
think that that takes us then to um the la the next item, which is uh uh possible traffic and safety issues on Southeast Street when the new elementary school opens. And uh so I want to
welcome the facilities director of the school uh Michael Gallow Connell and um Chief Ting uh to talk about what sa what they have as safety concerns for um the
new elementary school. I was hoping that we would have uh the superintendent of public works here to because I think we need recognized uh that u things that um we
might think of um are ultimately matters that um his department would have to be involved with and have to be able to accomplish. Um but um I think we need to go ahead
and start the conversation going. Um and I just as a last uh introductory statement um before opening up to others on the committee is to just uh review quickly
what happened in the um prior discussion of this issue. that uh the public the public works department had come in with a recommendation of a plan that involved
uh four roundabouts. One at uh Main Street, one at the north entrance of the school, one at the south entrance of the school, and the third at College Street um where it intersects with Southeast
Street. And uh that was uh not um ex one that we ended up supporting after having heard from what was then called the disability access advisory committee and now uh the commission on people with
disabilities or the traffic uh transportation advisory committee. Um and the largest reason um that we had in not doing that was that we felt that um it really
didn't address the um questions of pedestrian and bicycle safety which are important um with elementary school students. And uh that u uh that was uh
the the biggest factor in feeling that uh there was no way to provide the kind of crossing guards that would uh be able to assist young students with uh
pedestrian crossings at multiple traffic circles. um as described in the plan that it was a uh a way of dealing with cars. It wasn't
way of dealing with young children. Uh and that was uh what was the concern with that. So, um I know uh since we I was hoping we would get uh Councelor
Shane here. Um maybe I'll see if I can text her in a second, but uh did uh Michael or Chief Ting, do either of you have uh thoughts about what your
concerns might be if you've thought about this issue? Chief, >> I can go first. Um, certainly I first of all, I'd like to uh, you know, commend Dr. Anderson's comments and I certainly agree with him in regards to um,
supporting efforts towards having safer ways for alternative types of travel to get to the schools. you know, certainly uh bicycle and pedestrian um availability would definitely uh be um something that we would uh invite into
the town. Uh so I appreciate his comments. Um you know so for us from my perspective it is uh you know it's going to be no different than it was before in the sense that you know the the biggest choke points are going to be uh the
morning drop offs and the pickup times and um those are really the the two time periods that we really need to focus on. Other than that um I think the the general traffic is pretty good. Um, but certainly with the doubling in the
population, the size for the school, that's going to be a concern. And I did read the study. I took a look at it. Um, you know, there was a recommendation potentially for a roundabout and I think that would probably work out well. Uh, however, that's that's quite an expense
and that's something that would uh need to be visited certainly by by uh the director of the DPW and the town council to review. So, uh, my focus again is primarily on drop off time and pickup times.
>> What you were saying about the traffic circle, what were your which all four traffic circles or how >> uh the the one that that I was most interested in is the traffic circle that's on Main Street to Southeast
Street. uh that's closest to the exit of the current exit and entrance way to Fort River. I think that would alleviate a lot of uh the headaches that uh are that we'll potentially have with with the traffic in that area during drop off
and pickup times. >> Yeah. Um for turning to Michael, I think that what um the concern was that was uh expressed by Guilford and the uh consulting engineering firm that was
working with him is the very short distance between Main Street in the north entrance of the school and uh question of inability to u get people into a position
coming southbound to uh make a left turn into the school safely, but I'm not the traffic engineer who can go beyond that. Uh but that was I think that distance was what was barrier. Michael,
what are your thoughts? >> Hi. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for inviting me to this conversation. Um I have similar concerns. um you know doubling almost doubling the volume of traffic like 575 students in the building. Um
so the number of buses vans um you know right now we have six um buses that transport for Crocker Farm and six buses that transport or for River and six to transport for Wildwood. So potentially we could have 12 school buses, you know,
entering and exiting at the pick up and drop off times um in addition to the vans. Um so just making sure we can get those vehicles out of the parking lots in timely manner because those are the same buses that um you know after the
elementary run then they're required to do the um the middle school and high school runs. So any delays you know affects the uh secondary schools. Um and then another concern is like I
don't think that the number of um you know walkers or bike riders will increase. It'd be great if it did, but I think with the increased traffic volume, that's an additional um safety concern. Like going to be much busier on the
roads with that volume of traffic at those two time periods. Again, it's really like the you know, just those two time periods of day that I'm concerned about. >> Yeah. I think that we all recognize that
that's the heavy time. Um, I'll ask one question and I want to turn it to other members of the committee to see if you have questions uh that you'd like to ask either the chief or uh Mr. Gella Connell. Um,
buses. Are you concerned about uh buses me needing to make left turns out of uh what will be the access the southern access point where they're
going to be using to get to the school? Uh yes, definitely. Um, and if we have if it is 12 buses needing to exit the parking lot um you know, turning left, uh, that's a,
you know, a short distance between the traffic light and the parking lot exit. So, you know, a roundabout seems like, you know, a a good solution, like long-term solution for that area for the same reason. So, there's not a backup.
um of traffic. >> Yeah, of course we have to deal with the short-term solution because >> right >> uh as the chief has indicated to get the design and funding together is not going to be something that's
going to happen quickly. So, we do need a plan that when the school opens, um, >> I'd ask you the question as to whether you thought that a uh, somebody needed
to be a crossing guard or somebody there to stop traffic um, at that southern entrance when buses leave. And uh do you given any more thought to that?
>> I mean, I think that that would be helpful, but I think that we'll um you know, I think right now we have four buses um that turn left out of the parking lot. So, if that's potentially six or seven buses, um
you know, with the light, I'm not exactly sure of it. um the distance between that exit and the light. But um they can be back up um at at that point for like and any bus
is turning left which I think that um I think right now that it's just two lanes like one coming in, one coming out for that exit. So there's not a right turn lane. Um,
so if there is a backup, it's going to affect, you know, all the buses, not just the buses that are turning left. Questions from other members of the committee? >> Jennifer. >> Um, yes, thank you. I so there were the
cons the concerns with the roundabouts were that there were four and that seemed that was the initial concern that that seemed like a lot of roundabouts between um College Street and between Main Street and Route 9.
So are we now talking about so two in terms of there would be so what there would be one at College Street or I'm sorry at Main Street and
at Route 9. Yeah. And because having the smaller roundabouts at the entrance to the exit plus the larger roundabouts at Route 9 and Main Street just was way too many roundabouts for a
small space, you know, short relatively short space. So, what could the exit the exit of the school could it could there be no left turns and it all be right turns and then if you're going south the
buses would have to go around if we had a roundabout at Main Street and southeast. Could the buses make all make a right turn out of the driveway, the exit from the school and go around the roundabout and then go south? Is that feasible?
You know, since it's sounding like a lefthand turn without the mini roundabout right at the exit is going to be difficult. >> Um I I can I can try to answer that. It's uh it's potentially feasible. I mean, it would slow down those buses a
little bit. I mean, it's a pretty tight schedule. Um but I mean yeah it would increase the amount of traffic going in that direction but potentially that could be a solution um
not having a um a left turn there. And then my last, you know, again, the other concern was from like the disability access commission representatives and I guess TAC of the roundabouts not being the best
solution for pedestrians. So, I guess that sort of brings us back to where we've always been, but how do we resolve all of this? uh come back to that a minute, but councelor Ryan. >> Yeah, I it's again it's very unfortunate
Guilford's not here because his input would be really valuable, but that's that's the way it is at the moment. Um I think we have to distinguish between a long-term problem and a short-term problem. And right now, it's the short-term problem that we need to focus on. Um the long-term one is is going to take a lot more time and and and other
parties present as well. But the short-term one is is very real and very imminent. And uh both Mr. Okonnell and Chief King have highlighted what that problem is. And um I think we need to think about uh what possible steps could
be taken. Um also what individuals should be involved. I mean at some stage hopefully sooner rather than later uh the the interested parties which is not this committee um but obviously Mr. McConnell, Chief Ting, Guilford, and maybe one or two others need to sit down
and and talk to each other and figure out what they're going to do. Um, it's not going to involve us. Um, we just are a vehicle for sort of bringing at least some of the folks together for a moment and highlighting the issue and hoping that that that it will be addressed. Um, we're not going to address it and we're
not going to solve it. Um but we can certainly offer suggestions and we can certainly urge um you know uh Paul and relevant uh department heads to get together and address this before fall comes around and and and all well
everything gets chaotic. Um so I'm wondering if there's technological fixes. This is where Guilford could be helpful. Um we've used street lights timed etc. Is is that a possible way to do it? Um, one sort of really crude but perhaps reasonable thought is you're
just going to have to have a human being there. So, I'm just gonna have to be there at those two peak times and and just make sure that that certain and it wouldn't be very long, but they'd have to be there. And I'm sure the chief thinks, well, you know, I don't have enough officers as it is. Uh, would it
be a police officer? Maybe that's impossible. But, you know, one second solution is a human being. Um uh certainly I think uh the suggestion that Jennifer has and I think Mr. Okonnell suggested you know eventually creating I mean having either a right turn uh maybe
could you create a right turn lane so at least you have now a left turn lane and a right turn lane. Um but of course that involves the I just don't we don't have the plans in front of us and maybe that's just physically impossible. Um but I think we should focus on short term. Um and any suggestions anybody has
would be welcome because I you know and secondly we need to just you know encourage as much as we can um that the relevant parties start meeting and talking to each other um and and that uh it starts with the DPW chief um which again it's unfortunately he's not here
but that that's these are important conversations and we won't be involved in them. We don't have a role in that. Um so that's my thoughts. Uh >> yeah, I I one one of the things that has been
suggested would be for the the bus uh exits um that place. um to have a light there, a traffic light there which is controlled by the bus drivers so that when they have to make a left turn, they can they can, you know, signal to the
the traffic light to, you know, go red on north the north south um traffic, the stuff on East Street. That's one possible short-term solution. I don't know if it if it's feasible or not
because I know College Street to get to down to College Street is is pretty pretty tight. Um and if there's any traffic that's built up there um you'd have to somehow coordinate the the traffic lights
um on College Street and Southeast. Um but in terms of you know making it safer for bikers um we discovered that there's a cut through
from Pelum Road into the school that seems to be out of you know not in good shape but that that seems to be you know would be a great place to if we could improve that uh and make it work again
that students could, you know, funnel, you know, from the Echo Hill area and even um perhaps from from um further up Main Street. Um that might
be another way to to to to ease things. And then I'm concerned about over the longer term as we develop those areas on the the Beluretown Road and the old school, we're going to have a lot of kids that are going to be school age
kids going into Fort River from those areas and we need to figure out somehow getting them across the common safely. And then we had talked about possibly a route from the Belchuretown Road
development into the school. It would require a a bridge apparently of some sort, but um again as as a as a that's more of a long-term solution, but I think we should be considering
you know how kids can go safely to the school um through places like that. Benford. >> Um, yeah, picking up on what Bob said, which were excellent suggestions in terms of the Pelum Road and Belturetown
Road routes to the school if we were and as Dr. Anderson urged us to complete and submit the second part of this safe streets to school application. Would that could that provide the
funding to make the Pelum road access and the Belchuretown road access to bring them up to where they need to be to be viable ways to get to school? I that's just a question like I don't know what the timing is of that process.
I think that what it was is that there's a state grant program called the safe roots to schools grants >> and that that might be a source of funding. U but that you have to have um
achieved the level two of complete streets policy and we are only at the level one. And what would the timing be to get to the >> I I mean maybe we don't have to discuss that now, but is that something that
could we have any possibility of happening clo close to fall of 2026? I don't I mean we >> know because it's it's com it's I understand it but I'm not I don't have enough expertise to go beyond it and if
anybody else does they should let let us know but uh there are certain requirements um of what you would are committing the town to do to make streets safe for all forms of
transportation. And uh there would be a cost factor involved because you you'd have to deal with that as you uh make any changes to any streets whatsoever. You'd have to uh
work to make them uh more accessible with sidewalks and bicycle lanes >> and that's what it ties to. Right. >> So I have another question. If I mean it sounds like from a traffic flow
that uh tra um roundabouts you everyone seems to agree who's a traffic flow expert that that would help. But if roundabouts are not deemed to be really, you know, this the safest
um strategy for pedestrians and bikers, will having a roundabout cause us to be ineligible for the safe streets design two level two designation? I'm just asking because I I really don't know. >> Don't know how that works. Um and
>> does Dr. Anderson know? I don't know if you I know we're finished with public comment, but I'm Oh, if I could just chime in. I think that's probably an engineering design um issue in terms of uh creating, you know,
adequate sidewalks and lanes for bicycles and pedestrians. Uh unfortunately, I'm not an engineer, so I couldn't really say. Um, but that's my guess is that uh that they probably could be mitigated, but it's difficult because there's only so much space in
that particular area. Uh, so I think that would be a challenge. >> Thank you. And again, the the traffic and parking commission will will be addressing this once they're formed. It'll come out of TSO. Well, what my
thought was is that um as of after today's discussion, which is going to, you know, limited by um Guilford not being here, uh we would um move this into what's known
as the carryover memo. And the carryover memo should said this uh should be transferred to the transportation parking commission and if uh if it's created which is a council decision
if the council doesn't make that decision then it would have to come back and continue within TSO council Ryan. So, I was the one who actually pushed for having the complete streets level
two priority plan and finalizing the bike and pedestrian plan in the manager's goals document. And for those of you who've made it through the 34 pages of his self-evaluation, somewhere in there you will discover that of course there has been no progress on that and that's all that is
said. Um, I also know that there's been push back from Guilford on at least the complete streets level two priority plan. Um, and I, again, it's unfortunate he's not here because I can't really speak for him, but he has raised some
concerns about it. Um, and only hope that it will be in the goals uh that we will form for the next year. Um, as far as finalizing the bike and pedestrian plan, that's certainly something that TPC can take up. So, assuming that's created, that would be something they could could turn to, and I hope they will. Um, but again, I guess
my thought is again, short term. Um, what do uh, you know, Chief Tang and what do Mr. Okonnell think about any possible short-term steps that could be taken? Um, or is it more a matter of um, having the relevant parties get together
and start brainstorming? Um, we've had some good suggestions from Bob um about things that could be done. Um, whether those are possible or in the next by the fall, I don't know. Whether they'd address the issue, I don't know. Um, but
um I think it's the short-term issue at the moment that we really need to to to draw attention to and and seek what next steps would be. Um >> yeah, I just wanted to to um bring up
another issue. The the south the common there um as I recall the original plan submitted by uh Guilford did not was deliberately did not uh impinge on the
current common. And I I just think we we should look at everything, every you know, every possibility. Uh even if people even if it means we might need to take some of the common um and and and
convert it to to a to a a sidewalk or a or a um a roadway. So, I I I would just think that it if we're looking for a long-term solution, we should consider that. We may decide not to do it that
way, but uh or the council may decide not to do it that way, but I think it should be considered. >> I think that uh we did say that we would be willing to consider it. um how much of the common
but we had talked about uh whether there would be any thing that would widen the street, create an extra lane, which was what Guilford had said previously was necessary in order to um
take care of some of the things without going to roundabouts. you'd have to make the street wider so that there would be an extra turn lane or merge lane. Uh Michael, um I think that a shortterm solution is
going to have to require either a traffic light at the entrance, the south entrance or and also or person at those two times and then coordination of the traffic lights. on um on uh the
um the Beluretown Road light and the um probably the other um the main street light as well. Just so those time two time periods a day um traffic can flow out of the parking lot.
Um I mean and that's you know that's our you know quick fix. Um, you know, I'm not sure how sustainable it would be to have a person at both those locations for us or
for the for the police department. But that is a, you know, to me seems like a an emergency, you know, solution until we, you know, can work out a longer term plan. And if and if
there are roundabouts in those internal areas, I think that they would um you know, they'd have to accommodate school buses. Um so I mean think it would require you know taking part of the common
to accommodate them accommodate them. Yeah, >> I think that uh you know for the short term and certainly um this is going to require some more brainstorming um and to think about different options. Uh you
know, off the top of my head, you know, when when this construction first started, we did have police officers that were at the entrance to try and figure out um how to mitigate the traffic issues because we weren't quite sure what it would look like. So, we did have officers there. Um, but I can tell
you this, that's something that's not sustainable um due to our staffing levels and certainly there's uh contractual issues in terms of uh having officers out there and cost uh analysis that would uh it would be very expensive
uh to have an officer out there um if we were to hire somebody there to be there every single morning and afternoon. So that to me is just not sustainable. Uh certainly I think that would be the easy fix to have uh some type of traffic guard out there. Uh again, that's
another option that the schools might want to take a look at in terms of um having a uh traffic person out there. Uh but again, I think this is going to take a little more brainstorming to try and figure it out.
>> So Guilford, uh you're not here. No, please. >> I'm sorry, Andy. >> Guilford is coming. Yeah, >> we're having a fairly extensive
discussion about um some of it is focused on long-term, but we're trying to really >> get into what are the shortterm things that can be done when the school is open. um because uh a lot of the plans that
we've talked about in the past um are not going to be uh even if we went that direction would not be completed. There were several other issues that came up that um you might be able to help with and I'll just mention one of
them but it's not something we have to hit as the first thing and that is uh during public comment um somebody uh the public commenter talked about um safe routes to school funds being available
to help us but that requires that we move to level two of the um complete streets. There was a lot of questions that were being asked about what um level going to level two commits the
town to and uh what the benefits are and I didn't have all the answers because I don't have the expertise in that area having really delved in heavily into what the level two requirements are. I
think you might have done a little bit more work with that. So, that's kind of where we were. Um, were other Does anybody have other questions that they thought of that they'd like uh to make sure that Guilford can help us with
George? And then >> Well, I don't want to We're going to dump on him a whole bunch of things. Maybe we should wait and focus first on what's in front of us. But I will mention having said that, I will now dump on him. Um, we did have the issue raised about uh the school zones at the
middle school and the high school and the the desire to have that done and a question as to why that hasn't happened yet. Um, >> that came out of public comment. >> Yeah, I know. But I think it's a question I would have asked anyway. Um, so anyway, there's those kinds of questions, but maybe we should just
focus for the time on on this issue of uh the school and how we're short-term solutions to this the challenge. >> So, Guilford, have you any given any thought to what's going to happen when school opens?
>> Yeah, it's going to be great. You're going to have a you're going to have a brand new building. It's uh teachers will be excited. everyone's going to be excited and um given a lot of thought to it. Um but I was told to stop thinking about traffic. So I haven't thought much about the traffic
outside. Um >> well the suggestion Guilford was to have you out there uh in the morning and in the afternoon to uh to do that was what we were going to vote on in just a minute. But so I don't to >> I'm sure if there's a stipen involved I'd be happy to do it. >> No no stipen just part of your you know
regular duties as DPW chief. So >> then, uh, I don't know if that would work. I might have to file a grievance. >> Um, but no, I mean, we haven't really, I mean, nothing's really been thought about and talked about short term. I mean, there is no nothing you're going
to if if you want to try to build stop install stop lights and then hooked all all four stop lightss together, that's something, but there's no funds for that. Um, you do have the >> you have two of the most advanced
controllers we own are at those two intersections. Now, the uh College Street intersection and the Main Street intersection, we use a program called uh no traffic. Kind of cool name uh to control the traffic that's not supposed to be there.
Uh but it actually does a very good job of clearing the intersections out and handling the traffic and adjusting. We have that that's the same controller that is in the Meadow Street, North Pleasant Street intersection. Um, and we're looking to bring a couple of those
controllers to downtown, but um, it has the right now the existing lights are pretty good. If you wanted to install something and there was funding to install something temporarily or if there's funding to put up a temporary light at
one of the exits or entrances, that would be possible. And you can hook hook the three together with the no traffic system so they all three of them talk together and all three work together. Um that's that's doable. Um safe roots to school. Safe roots to
school is a is a federal program. Um has nothing to do with the state's program for um safe streets, complete streets. The two are totally separate programs. We've gotten Safe Roots to School grants in the past. All
we need to do is have the schools be involved in the Safe Roots to School program, be a part of that program, and then we can submit for those programs. Um, >> what kind what kind of uh funding are we
talking about is enough to help us address some of the things that you envision as being um important to solve this problem. Um we we I mean we stopped looking at
this when we were told there was no funding to move forward with the with analysis and stuff. So we have not really done anything with this. It's been sitting on the shelf and we have not looked at it since then. If we want to dust it off and start looking at
things we could, but we we have not really looked at it at all. We've moved moved on to other things. Uh Chief. >> Yeah, my apologies. Uh, I don't mean to cut out short. I do have an 11:00 that I have to attend to. Um, I'm certainly
open to any type of uh future meetings on this for brainstorming. Um, so I I apologize I have to leave early. I thank everyone for their time. >> Thank you. >> Well, thank you for being here.
>> Bye everyone. Uh, George, that's right. >> What I'm I'm sort of hearing is that um the current situation, you have a fairly sophisticated system in place that we've paid for. So, there's no funding
involved there. That's working well. Um, what Mr. Okonnell pointed out in June well I'm sure is that come fall traffic volume will double most likely certainly bus traffic and probably you know there'll be a lot more traffic do you think the current system that's in place
could handle it or is your thought that well let's see what happens in other words you've got a system in place it seems to be doing a decent job at the moment um and we're just going to have to play this by ear fall comes um and see if this do you think the system can
handle that increased traffic volume. Um do you think that um in addition to that we should maybe look at some a third piece of technology that could be coordinated um with the two main streets? Um that's would require funding as you've made clear. So we'd have to
figure that out. Um what's your sort of you know thought? Do do you Yeah. Um should we just wait and see? Um our our original thought was to hire a consultant to do some more modeling for us and come up with answers. The
initial review they did showed that the intersections are not going to function very well. They're going to degrade in abilities. And that then we were told, well, we'll just wait and see what happens after school opens. And that's where we
>> that's where it was left. H >> yeah. How much of the problem and uh is going to be people coming out of the two entrances to the school? school buses on one hand because there was a discussion that uh took place before you joined us
about um buses being able to safely make left turns into from at the point that they'll need to be making left turns out of the school. And uh the other one of course is the amount of cars that could
be coming particularly in the morning and the afternoon hours um going to the uh through the south the the north entrance which >> I I agree and I was trying to find the
traffic the study we just just trying to pull up the study we had done. >> So, the study made it clear that that when this uh fall comes around, it's going to be a mess. Um, and it's not clear that the current system that's in
place will be able to handle it. I don't know if the study spoke to that. Maybe it didn't even consider it, but it made it clear that um it's going to be a problem. Um, and uh, one suggestion that came up in our discussion before you got here, Guilford, was the idea of the bus, the drivers could control a light.
There'd be some technological way that they could they could turn a red light to a green light so they could at least get in and out. They could control um, the light. I don't know if that's a simple fix, if that's even a reasonable fix. Um but yeah, it's
h >> well control the light the control the two existing lights. >> Uh I think just I think just the light that would allow them to to make their to exit without having to uh just allow them to exit. Or maybe somebody can
explain it better than I can. But that was a suggestion that was raised but there was no no one did no one knew if that was even possible or a good idea. Um >> I think they were referring to um if there was a traffic light at the um
south exit where the buses leave and then buses could potentially control the light or I mean maybe like a timer >> um would work for that. So, but you're putting in a new light
and then you're putting a control a control on that new light is what they were proposing. >> I mean, that that is doable. I mean, but you'd have to we'd have to have the funding to put the new light in.
Of course, the other possibility I suppose is since the I didn't I don't know if the this is what you were thinking about if the buses could control the College Street light and keep um so that cars wouldn't be coming
up from the south. Uh that would make at least make that side of the street uh larger gaps for them to move out of. Uh it wouldn't be used except for very brief
periods of the day. But um is that a technologically possible? >> Technologically is it possible? Well, I imagine so. Um, if we you'd have to Well, we'd have to have
the new light and then we probably need the two to talk to each other. It could be set up that you It could be set up that you'd stop traffic coming in into the intersection. We'd have to put a new Yeah, we could. It's probably tech
probably technologically pro possible. We just would need to have the funds to do it. >> Michael, >> um so there would also be an issue with the traffic coming from Beluretown taking that um >> yeah, that little
>> access road where there's not a light where they just go right on to uh Southeast Street. So that wouldn't be regulated by any lights. >> Well, if you put a light at the driveway for the school for the buses, that light would regulate those people and stop them. >> Yeah.
Yeah, that's true. >> Uh, Jennifer, >> yeah, I just I have no idea what kind of cost is involved in that in installing a light. >> We we would have to we'd have to get an estimate together. Um, the no traffic
system is about um 20,000 $25,000 a piece. We would have to get a controller, lights, poles. Um, I don't know. It could be up to 250, $300,000 for for the for the work,
>> but a lot less as a short term at least to installing the roundabouts. I mean >> it would it's possibly will it help.
Not not sure. I mean at least get the buses out. >> I mean Guilford realistically a roundabout solution is going to take years. I mean we're talking two or three years at least, right? And that's not something that's going to happen quickly under any scenario. Correct. >> Correct. We brought that up last time
and that's why we stop doing what? Yeah. >> Right. Right. So, if we do go that direction eventually um and make that decision, uh which sounds like a number of people think that something like that would be ultimately the long-term solution. Um it's still a couple of
years out. So, in the meantime, we're trying to as we're trying to figure out what we can do to to try and make this, you know, at least manageable. Um, do you think that that we would need some more consultant help to resolve that or do you think that given your abilities,
the abilities of your staff, uh, Mr. Okonnell, Chief Tang, I mean, given our current folks, could we figure it out ourselves? And then, as you say, of course, funding is going to be an issue. Um but right now put that aside and just can we come up with at least some
suggestions of how to manage this in the short term while at the same time um you know others will be pursuing the longer term solution. Um do we have the the brain power and the expertise in house or do you think we would need uh some further help from these consultants who
uh we had originally and now we've sort of put on hold. um we would need some help from our um equipment pro providers. What we would need if you want to try to do it this way,
>> I don't I don't think our consultant would be willing to join us in this endeavor because they think it's a bad idea or because it's just not their their their cup of tea or they just don't like us. I mean, how quick would they? >> Um,
so it's kind of outside the normal process for how you would do something like this and they probably might not be willing to to do it to do it that way. >> Excuse me. I think Kathy Shane just joined. >> Okay. >> I haven't seen her in our screen. Is she
in the audience? She is. >> I just brought her on. she should be brought in. >> I guess my question would be for you. What would you suggest? I mean, obviously we we're not the long-term solution is outside of of our cons what we can do in the right now. Short term,
what would you think would be the the best uh thing we could we could do? Um what would be the best steps we could take >> or do you want to think more about it? I mean, I I just really what I would like to hear from you is what do you think you what would you think we should do?
>> Um, we really haven't thought much about putting a light there. So, we would have to think a little bit through it. >> Okay. >> You do have to the light definitely would have to talk to the other two lights. Um, we'd have to set up some type of
system where we clear out the buses and then let everybody go back to normal. Um, it it would have to be thought through a bit. >> You guys would sit down and think this through if I mean and then come back and
and offer a proposal and with obviously funding uh needs attached to it. Is that what what you're thinking is that you if you were given the go-ahhead or you could do it on your own to sit down and think it through and then come forward proposal. >> Yeah, if we're told to go if we're told to think it through and come up with a
way to help get the buses out of the and it's just that that one piece that that we could probably figure it out and give you a cost estimate. >> Yeah. Um, I just want to point out that the buses are important, but that the
larger volume of vehicles will be at the other entrance. >> They are. That's why we kind of looked at the whole corridor and we were looking at doing things in the whole corridor. But that that is even if you even if you don't choose the roundabout option and you choose you want inter you
want to put traffic lights at each of the driveways >> um and then widen the roads to accommodate the turn track turning traffic that's years out too. So that's why that was one of the other options people brought up. So if you want this would just be a this
would be a I mean we could we would do something like we did at Meadow Street where we'd put in just wood poles and we would string the wire over a span wire and um yeah because that actually has a no
traffic system there and it so no traffic would let the actually Meadow Street can talk to Main Street and College Street but there's not really much to talk about so they don't really talk that much, but the systems there talk. Um, if you want to, I can at your
next meeting, I can show you how the no traffic system works. Um, and you'd have to have a no traffic system to go with the two that are existing, so you can make everything talk to each other and clear things out. >> Yeah. Um, you should recognize Guilford
that uh we re we sort of saw this given the time of where the cycle of the council is is uh that we would have an initial discussion today to try and outline some possibilities and that um
depending upon what the council does in voting to create a transportation parking commission, it either would be referred to them as one of their top items. So when they um convene if they can if Paul can get appointments done quickly otherwise it has to come back to
TSO in January when it's newly formed. Um so uh why don't I Michael what are you thinking then I wanted to hear from Kathy. Um, I had a question about uh if would a
temporary traffic light be able to communicate with the the existing traffic lights in that area? >> Yes, we we would we would Well, what I mean by temporary is it's not going to be big foundations with big metal poles.
It'll be just wood poles that can be taken in and out when we decide what we finally want to do. That's what I mean by a temporary >> not like what was down at the school previously, right? Just the like mobile. >> No, not that. It would be be like what's at Meadow Street right now, which is
just wood poles and span wires and the traffic signals are on the span wire. >> Okay. >> The controller is a full full controller. So, we tried to get the controllers to talk to the temporary ones, but they wouldn't they had a
language barrier. Okay. >> Yeah. Hi, good morning. >> I I apologize for joining late. I I didn't put the link in my calendar and and literally forgot having been told
about this. So Guilford um and and Michael the lady's talking about if you want to see it it's it's up at this North Ammerst intersection and it allows um and so what when he when Guilford put it in he talked about it we would get an
ugly light rather than a streamline light meaning it doesn't have really nice steel poles it has these wires. Um, so I had um, so I had a question on the light Guilford, but I also when you're
doing the Pomememoroy intersection, you're taking out a light there. And I have no idea whether that light is smart or the apparatus. So just, you know, would would we ever it it doesn't work. So you couldn't just reuse what we've got there. Um >> we we might be able to use some of our
we took down um we took down Pomeoyy's lights and we kept some of the fixtures. We might be able to use re some of the light fixtures, but the pole is only was only one pole at Pomeroy. Um >> you just got that one big but you know big >> Yeah, it just had one big pole. Actually
two big poles is all it had. Um so we would do it a little differently but we could possibly reuse some of the lights we have laying around. I think we have a few. uh we keep them for spares but the controllers we we don't have a spare controller and we don't have the spare
no traffic system. >> So so what I was thinking about in terms of getting the price as low as possible if this isn't going to be super long term you know just for a few years not is um we we're when we get free cash certified this fall in the next month or
so this could be a piece that gets financed so it gets put in place. So Andy, I didn't think of it waiting for the transformation committee. I thought it being a direct request from the town so it would be available. So um and so I
had been thinking in the 150 plus range because I knew that was the price of the light up here, but I know that light was several years ago, you know. So just, you know, I just remembered that that was we got a gift up here because another project came in below budget and
Guilford found the money. So I had a a separate So that was my thought on getting an estimate. We could actually probably have a project that could happen. So you've probably already talked about this, but the the slanted road that Mike talked about the bypass.
>> Um can it can it not be shut off so cars don't is that an insurmountable concern? And there are some bushes there too. So um earlier Mike Rupert had talked about the bushes make it hard for the buses to
see. So you know so either shutting it off because it is so close to that entry and I know of at least a couple accidents. Um one person who was on our building committee said she was with her kids in the car. The car was totaled it because the person didn't stop. You know
it was a turning in. So I didn't know whether we could do that. Um that was short-term in terms of expense and then when you said longer term if we talked about widening the road or some other
there is grant money if we if we get our um completes whatever we have to apply for one thing but there is some else. So could we at least know whether widening the street in terms of is it possible to take part of the green to make the
street wider? Is it possible to take part of the public way when the cars leave by where the red office building is up at the north intersection? You had said that goes fairly deep during one of our school building. So, if those were possible, um, would that be something
that would ease the flow so it allows a turning lane similar to way over by the big Y? Um, and that extra lane works actually pretty well to get the through traffic in one direction and turners in the other. So, it's a question of whether it's even possible. Um, rather
than what's the price to it and what we have to do. So that was my question on making the street three lanes to allow a turning lane for bus or and or cars. So that so the two questions were turn
up the slanted road and the second was the the widening of the street including up by and George and everyone they when Guilford was out with the building committee and the traffic survey people he said that um I think it's a law firm or accounting house. It has a much
deeper public way than you would think, you know. So that allows, you know, a slip lane for cars to get out who might be turning right, you know, to go uh go go east. Um you'd have to look at it, but it they wouldn't be happy. I mean, they'd have
to change where their driveway is. Um but in any case, so those are my questions on road and cutoff. Um the the cutoff the problem with the cutoff is that's actually the driveway for three establishments.
So we need to or at least two establishments. It's a the >> the bank. >> It used to be the hotel and I don't know what it's something else now. >> I believe apartments. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's their driveway and that's their only way to get to their
driveway. And then there's a driveway to the bank that goes in that way as well. Um the bank is is not as much of a problem possibly. Um because it does loop around and you could just >> if it was closed off the driveway,
they'd have to leave and go north. They'd have to go left to get out is the issue right? >> Yeah. >> Yes. If you if you close off the slip lane, the people in the apartments would have to turn left, come out, make then make a right or left turn to at a funky
intersection. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, that's the problem there. >> Um >> the road is I mean the common the public way is quite wide. It goes
it's uh actually it's it's quite wide. It's um it's over it's like 150 ft maybe it's 160 ft across the whole area. Um which means it goes basically from this
the front of some of the houses that are next to the school all the way over to the back side of the sidewalk on the little oneway street over there. So it's quite wide. So, you could add a you could add a turn lane like Hadley, like the states added in Hadley on Route 9.
Um, you could add that type of turn lane in there um to help alleviate things. And you could you could make a a designated right turn lane at the intersection with Main Street and North Northeast Street. Um,
as you do all that, you're just adding to money and the cost of doing doing things. So, there are a couple shade trees in in there that would have to be looked at. If you widen if you widen the road next to the
common, there's a there's six probably six or seven shade trees um that would have to be addressed. >> I'm flipping through the map as I'm talking to you. I'm sorry. No, no, I didn't think it was going to be cheap. I just wanted to know it was feasible and
it sounds like it's feasible. Um, >> yes, it's feasible. >> Yeah. >> The question also is whether it's feasible before the school opens. >> That's not feasible. >> Right. Right. Short-term versus long. Right.
>> Yes. So this just one other piece of information that I and the schools will have to deal with it but u Mike that because the the fields part and the taking down of the new the old building is a second phase
>> there's going to be less initial parking than long-term there will be. So teachers are going to have to people who want to park their car is going to have to find some and other spaces and you should just talk with the design team on that that that's been known but I don't
think it's been addressed on where where teachers cars might be able to park um because not all there's supposed to be 170 parking spaces and not all will be available uh in September 2026.
No, you thought about that issue. >> Pardon? >> I was asking Michael if the schools have thought about that issue about the limited number of parking places initially when the school opens as they
as they tear down the old building. >> Uh, no, not yet. But we were going to have to address that. You know, you know, Andy, I think it was talked about initially in design team maybe with Rupert, but it was people didn't make
didn't make it a large public issue for obvious reasons, you know, but it was you like who gets to park there? But um but I just um the the person who will know that Mike is Tim Cooper and you you know that on the DNA design team they
they have a pretty precise estimate and so I think it was conveyed to Mike and RER but not necessarily broad broadly. Um yeah. >> Okay. >> Did anybody discuss the need to have parking at an entirely different
location? one of the >> So that's why I'm bringing it up, Andy. That's >> busting teachers in. >> So that that's why I'm bringing it up because I don't think it got past the people were aware of this was going to be a challenge rather than um aware and
then here's a solution. Here's where you could park your car. Um, you know, there's been a plea for a while to have pool car parking and not have everyone drive and park their car at school, but that hasn't they have part-time workers, so part-time staff, so not everyone can
many can't park carpool because they're coming from different places. I just want to raise that because that is that's going to be an issue that um you know we don't have probably at the VFW site where there might be overflow parking we're using it for Jones staging
I think you know like can we point to places or make arrangements Andy I have no idea you know in other words I don't know whether anyone has started to say where one might be able to park and then walk to the school I have no idea whether
anyone has identified places. >> This is our biggest recommendation coming out of today's meeting that we need to urge the town manager and the superintendent to get together and
create the proper grouping of staff to address this issue as high priority at the beginning of the year. maybe Andy and you know there's that um inspection station um and they have where you can go get cars inspected or
repaired they have a big lot behind them you know so I think people looked at where is there within walking distance where you know if you know where there was temporary overflow this will be it'll only be one year because then it
it'll all be finished. Um, so, so Andy, I just don't my my sense is that that hasn't come off up onto people's radar yet. And if Guilford is saying he he he hasn't seen it, that probably means no
one's Yeah. And Mike hasn't seen it. So, I just raised that because uh it was qu I was quietly reminded about that a month ago. All right. Yeah, I'm I'll connect with Tim Cooper
then and um start looking into that um and see how long of a period time period we're looking at um to help decide like solutions. Uh,
councelor Ryan. >> So, I want to pick up Andy on your statement just a moment ago. um what is sort of the the uh this the sum of what we as a committee want to do or
recommend. And you had suggested something along the lines of communicating to the town manager that this is high priority and that um he needs to um direct uh the appropriate uh
uh stakeholders including obviously Guilford and the schools. Um, and it sounds like we're also hearing that this might involve some funding and Kathy has suggested that there might be a way to address that. Um, but um, I think our
recommendation is that time is of the essence. Um, we now have a new issue of parking which I had not heard of before which you know is also going to be a challenge. So there are number of things that have to be addressed and we should start at beginning of the year and that would be our recommendation. This is not
something I think that comes back to us. I don't think there's any reason for Guilford to have to come back to us and I mean I'd be fascinated to learn how the no traffic system works, but that's just my curiosity. I think he's probably got better things to do. Um I don't see any more role for this committee um
other than raising this issue and flagging it and and maybe in one in your report um making clear to Paul that this is what we think needs to have have to happen. Um and uh that's where I would I
would direct our attentions. >> Bob, >> yes. I just wanted to say as someone who uses the Belchuretown Road, College Street uh intersection a lot, um the no
traffic um system really improved >> movement of of through that intersection. Um, so I definitely think that's that's the way to go in the future for for those sorts of problems. Um, I do want to just point out that the
town does own land where the Belchuretown Road development is going to go in. It's not suitable. It's just grass. You know, it's not suitable for parking in the winter, but if we have to have a temporary parking space there, I
think you could probably use I don't know how wet that grass is, but you could probably use that land. >> Jennifer, >> yeah, I just wanted a little clarification on what uh George had just said. So if it's there's if the the
recommendations, you know, um the the experts truly are going to confer among themselves and develop a plan, at least a short-term plan, and it's not going to come back to TSO. Is that because it will go to the new TPC
or will it just go directly to the council? So that's a if TSO isn't involved, will it just come they'll just make a recommendation directly to the council or will it go to TPC and then the council?
>> George Casser any thought on that or >> Well, no, that's a very good question. I my thought is it goes to Paul and Paul gets this started and um if it goes to anybody at that point eventually comes back to the council in case of it needs funding. Um I don't really want to add
yet another body to this. This is a very immediate specific problem. They don't need to be brought up to speed on this. Um, so I guess my thought, initial thought is that um, we're just asking Paul to get started on this and to convene the appropriate parties. Um, and
if it comes back to anybody, it comes back to the council. >> Okay. Thanks. >> It's my thought. I don't know what others think. >> Yeah. Uh, I'm somewhere in a similar place with the uh,
needs of planning for September. there isn't a lot of time >> and if the council approves um creating the TPC in December
at that point council isn't going to pick its two members until it's reformed in the new year and uh Paul's not going to be able to um pull together um boardman of the public
members until um January or even February. I would be surprised if the DPC doesn't you know it could be February or March before it has first meeting and I don't think that we
can wait for this process to talk of um addressing the problem of what happens when the school opens. I think that needs to move more quickly and that's what our recommendation should be that Paul take ownership of the issue and
recognize its priority. >> Councor Ryan. >> So the three questions then become what would be the best temporary solution? Um, and that's what we're hoping Guilford and whoever he needs to get would come
up with, you know, proposal working with perhaps Mr. Okonnell and the police, but whatever. Just what's the best temporary solution? How much is it going to cost? And where are we going to find the money? >> I think it needs to uh >> and before September.
>> Yeah, I know. >> Before September. >> Yeah. maybe even August, but yeah, right before September. >> Michael, does this sound like it'd be a helpful approach from the school's perspective
to get >> um Yeah, I think so. I think uh you know we uh need to have a solution for the I need I'll I'll find out um what percentage of um parking spaces aren't
going to be available for how long. Um and then um yeah the we'll need to have some kind of solution obviously um preferably yeah before August um for the traffic flow in and out of the
schools. Um so right the more support that we can get for that the better. I've very um come up with a motion that we could make today and that would be something along
the lines of u asking the town manager to give priority to creating an appropriate working group of uh staff from the schools and the town to
assess the problem of what will be done um at the beginning of the school year when the new school opens and to address both traffic and parking issues, traffic, parking and safety issues.
>> Could you repeat that, Andy? >> Um I was making on the fly. Mhm. >> Uh that we would urge the or recommend that the town manager give high priority to
appointing a working group of appropriate um staff from the town and the schools to work together to address uh traffic parking and safety issues.
when the new school opens. >> Does that make sense, Savannah? >> Yes. >> What What may I ask just I think that's good. I think that may be exactly what we want. Um, does it make any sense to
focus in on just to say what we're looking for obviously is a temp what is the best temporary solution and uh we want to know how much it's going to cost. Do you want is does that get put into the motion
or is that an explanation to accompany the motion? I think I think George is frozen. >> Yeah, I guess he is. >> I would uh I would probably just leave
the motion as simple as possible and put that in explanation to the motion. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's very clear that we need a solution and we need to get a solution in place before the school opens. So,
>> and this is going to take some time. It's not going to be something that happens instantly. So, that uh we go forward. Uh Council Ryan, what does he got frozen for a second? >> Yeah, sorry. I just had a communications thing. Um
>> so, yeah, go ahead. What we talked about was fairly straightforward motion as I described and that we would uh um take the other things that we were raising about um
trying to get an assessment of what what's feasible and what the costs are and how the costs would be met as explanation with the motion rather than in the motion itself. So, uh, assuming that's the motion on the floor. Is there a second?
>> I'll second Heaggner. >> So, we have the motion on the floor. It's made and seconded. Let's see if uh what the vote is on it. Uh, Jennifer, >> yes. >> Council Ryan, >> hi. >> Uh, Bob,
>> I. >> Council Lord, >> I So, it's unanimous. Um I'm sorry we uh Michael I hope that um uh was helpful to you to be here. It was
certainly helpful for us to have you here. So thank you very much for taking the time because I think that u your perspective and your future participation are so important to the process. And Kathy, I'm sorry that you weren't able to join at the beginning. I
understand that those things happen. Um but um I um we could uh it might be useful for you to give some thought as to if Paul u follows through with the recommendation of the committee what the
role of the elementary school building committee will be in offering its expertise and participation. >> Well, thanks Indian. I just I I just didn't put it on. I'll listen to the zoom um later, but the Paul had
originally emphasized that anything beyond the property of the school was the town, not the building committee. So that one of the issue reasons we've been quiet on it uh rather other than Rupert and now Michael pushing for a solution
has been, you know, sort of a hands-off um instruction. But I will I will speak with him. you know, it's, you know, it we had a few ideas from the traffic study people early on, but they also weren't looking at other than talking
with Guilford and his team on what might be possible. Uh, so we always knew that traffic was a problem at the Fort River School. So, I do apologize for coming in like
15. No, you you contributed something extremely important which was >> that uh initially there's going to be the parking issue in addition. That was the one thing that we had had not talked about before you came
and Chief Ting was um sharing the concern about um traffic and safety. >> Yep. So thank you all for focusing on this. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. So um I think we can go
on to one or two other items and uh and we can adjourn before Jennifer has to leave. >> Let me thank Guilford and >> so um >> we can release Guilford. The only other thing that was on the agenda that I just quickly ask
you about is um there's the one thing that was referred to this committee from the last council was the street light policy that had been intro or the that had been introduced by U counselors Hanaki and
Develin Gthier and it was then referred to you at the end of the last council term. I was referred to you and to Paul and apparently um there you did not have the bandwidth
to address the issue at all. >> No, we we've been talking by froze a bit minute. Uh we've been talking to our consultant who helps us with the street lights and we got started with it but then we didn't get get very far with it. Um I'll reach out
to him. Paul brought it up earlier this week. I'll reach out to our consultant and see if we can talk a little more, move something a little farther along, but we haven't really done much with it because of the time is uh we will probably just need to put
it back into the carryover memo again. And I understand from councelor Hanaki that she intends to reintroduce something um at the beginning of the next council
term which is her right to do and uh if that's the way that she wants to proceed. Ed, it's not an issue. And the I don't know if you've seen the best
practices uh uh memo from the uh MMA, Mass Municipal Association on the topic, but um it's fairly comprehensive and talks about uh what communities can do.
And we know that some communities have made more progress. So there are some models out there. Um not too much more we can say about it now. >> We've seen we've seen it at the MMA. >> Yeah. And I don't think we need to talk
about it today because the two advocates were not present and we're not going to resolve it during the remainder of this term. it's going to be a carryover to the next term. But I just want to point make it clear that we
recognize the issue is out there and that u we expect that it's going to come back in the next term. Is there much else to say? Uh anything else that people have that they want to ask Guilford now otherwise
uh we let two of them go and I have just one other thing to put on the screen. if we have time to do it. Seeing none, Michael Guilford, welcome to stay, but you don't we certainly don't need you. We very much appreciate
both of you having joined us. So, thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Thanks. I look forward to working with you guys to help solve these problems. >> Yeah. >> Challenges, not problems. >> Thanks. So the one thing that I wanted
to share with you um is the uh one of the things that we had talked about um is the rules of procedure. Um and if
the transportation and parking commission is created, what we would do on the question of referrals of measures when it comes to something from the transportation and parking commission
not going to TSO for further discussion. And what I had thought about was that the only way to do it was to add the section that I that you see in red at the bottom of the screen uh with the
need to add a D to the parking I just noticed. But uh in any way it would be uh a section uh actually it's two two to two another on this recommendation transportation parking commission. A
recommendation from the uh transportation parking commission is directed by the town council policy regarding the control and regulation of public ways that is accompanied by a written recommendation of the town council in which in this is a bad
sentence which includes factual findings made in support uh pursuant to section C2 of the policy will not be referred to the council committee. something alike in that approach. Uh, I admit I wrote
this late late last night, which is why you're seeing so many errors in it. But, uh, I just wanted to put it out there to see if, um, this is the kind of recommendation that we're thinking about
in order to, um, advance what we had been considering. Any comments other than spelling errors? Bob? >> Yeah, I just wanted to say that this was
a concern that I was, you know, I I wanted to make sure we we we did not sort of go back cycle through the committees. um once once the the a TPC made a made a decision about something
or a recommendation about something that the the town council would vote up or down on the on the recommendation. And so I think you know if we could even add something like the town council will will vote on
this issue um and not refer it to a council that would be to a council committee that would be even stronger. But if you don't want to put that in there, then this is fine. Well, it seemed to me that I wanted to go back to the rules of procedure and
that the biggest problem was is that uh you had to do something with the um section that starts at the beginning
uh about council may refer any measure to the council. time manager had multiple uh bodies um and with period time back report back um
it really doesn't it isn't these are not issues that are going to be go issues because it's not a bylaw. Um, I can ask Athena if you have any ideas on um
how to approach this problem of what to do with the rules. Please let us know. I think it could be pro problematic to prohibit referral from to committees
because there could be something that comes from transportation and parking commission that needs a financial review. Um I think what you're trying to do is is allow the council to vote on
something without the need for a referral. But there could be a need for a referral. Is that what you're trying to do? >> Well, the shortterm uh
things that need that are going to be referred directly to the town manager. Town uh town attorney's already added language. subject essentially subject to funding language. Uh
in the more permanent uh longer range kinds of things I that's a good good point. It just seems it seems a a little odd to me that, you know, I'm imagining that the TPC makes a recommendation to
the council, if the town manager submits um a funding request along with that recommendation, then the council, the finance committee would would in some cases be required to make a report on that before the council can act on it. So, it just seems a little odd to me to
to try and prohibit referral when really you're trying to say TSO doesn't need to look at it if it's coming out of TPZ. So you would say uh recommendation from the some and without getting into the wording
to limit it to T to TSO that if it needs to go to um it needs to have finance committee possibility. >> Councor Ryan, >> I I share it that is concerned about
forbidding things. um in general um and that even applies to TSO. I wonder if we're overthinking this a bit. Um it's very clear in the policy document that we assume will be approved by the council that where things are supposed to go and they're not going to TSO. Um
we also will probably be revising the TSO charge and taking out um certain things that so we wouldn't even be the relevant body um at least in for specific things. And it's possible at some future date the council might want to refer something to TSO or any other
committee um for any for any number of good reasons. So I think this isn't necessary. Um, I appreciate the spirit in which it's being brought, but I think given um Athena's point about uh telling the council what it can't do, um not
knowing what the future may bring, the fact that um we have a very explicit policy document that lays out exactly where things are supposed to go and we're going to change the uh I assume we'll change the TSO charge. I think really Andy, this isn't needed. It's my
initial thought. Um, yeah. Uh, Jennifer. >> Um, yeah. Again, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to sign off now, but I agree with George. I do appreciate the spirit in which it's brought that we don't want to this continuous loop, but um, yeah, I
would probably feel more comfortable if it didn't prohibit it. So, maybe we we don't need that. That's I was just going to say I agree with George but also you know share the concern that Bob has but
um I think I would heed Athena's advice in this. So I'm sorry I have to sign off but >> let me just say one thing real quick and that is um I assume we're not going to do anything today. we've had on the uh agenda for quite a while the recommendations on council rules and
procedures if the transportation advisory committee is adopted by the council and uh so I tried to at least frame it beginning of a discussion on that if you have other ideas before our next meeting otherwise we should vote at
the next meeting that we are not making recommendation on changes and just be done with Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Yeah. >> Um I think we're ready pretty Athena. >> Thank you. I think this concern could be
addressed most easily by removing a bullet from the TSO charge that states um review and make recommendations to the town council on measures related to public ways including transportation and parking, public lands, and town facilities. So you could either remove
that entire bullet or leave >> be town facilities. Um and I think that would be the easiest way rather than changing the rules the easiest way to address this issue. Um and there are some amendments to the
committee charges coming to the council on I think we've moved that to November 24th. Mhm. >> Um regarding um a legal review of measures from town committees. Um so it might be helpful if
TSO votes at the next meeting so the council can take up all of those amendments in one meeting. Uh I think that uh Lynn had another suggestion when I raised that question with her that uh the purposes of the
changes that go was making was to uh do things like make the town attorney more accessible to committees when needed. said town attorney would be involved in an earlier stage as we did fairly
recently ourselves in this committee. Um and that um a further amendment u regarding transportation parking commission and how that affects TSO could really wait until next year
because otherwise it have to go back to G is really getting very unfair to throw that in uh G at this later date. >> Oh, I I agree. I didn't imagine that that needed review by go. Um I think you
could you could at the next meeting um recommend skipping the go review and just making that amendment. I didn't I wasn't um suggesting that go look at that. So
then we would have the uh the whole question of the committee charge changes if TPC is created handled as a separate matter from what's currently on the agenda and that to happen in the next council.
Um, it's up to you if you want to make a recommendation to change the TSO. If you decide to make the recommendation that I suggested about the TSO charge, it's logical to me to bring that forward with the TPC since it will have two
readings. Um, George, you might help me remember if we left TPC on the next council agenda or if we move that to the 24th, but there will be two readings on it, >> right? Um, and we haven't had the first one yet. So, in my mind, it it seems
that there's enough time for TSO to make a recommendation about that change to the TSO charge and then put that together with the TPC charge and um changes to the public way policy so that it's all done in one fell swoop.
>> Okay. Well, we'll carry this over to our next meeting. So at that point um is there anything else that we need to discuss today? >> Well Andy one item you had um put on the agenda was just uh plans for a remainder
of our current council term future meeting schedule and agendas. And um if we have time I'd like to speak to that just briefly. Um >> go ahead and >> yeah just um and others may have other
things they would like to add to the list but I just keep it fresh in our minds um that we uh are at least I'm hoping that we can have a chance to talk to the uh consultant that is um been hired um
for the waste hauler um bylaw. So, I'd like that to be not lost uh if possible between now and the end of our term to see if Paul can arrange that to have them come and we can speak to them. Um I know I you know it's been a long time
since we've thought about it, but I'd like to think that um we would have a chance to talk to them before our term ends. >> I agree. Thank you very much for reminding me of that because it was has been on my mind too that if uh we would
need to add that. I think there's one thing that we may need to re-evaluate and I bring this up because something that you've raised before which was meeting with the senior director and uh >> yes that would that yes yes
>> you know the the study that they've been doing uh I think it question is whether that needs to wait till the next term Mhm.
>> So, any thoughts on that? Quickly. >> Well, you know, I think it's partly a question of I'm sorry. >> Pardon? You thought I was speaking over someone >> uh whether the you had been raising you
urging us to meet with the new director of the senior services. >> Yes. Yes. I like that. Yes. range of issues and um including the study that they've just been conducting. >> Yes. >> Um should that wait till the next term?
That was the question. >> Yeah, I would like to do that, but it would be dependent on her availability and her feeling that she's had enough time to get her mind around her job that she could have a a constructive conversation. I got the feeling that she
thought she could, but I would I would certainly ask you as chair to reach out to her and see if that's something she um feels comfortable doing. Um assuming that the rest of the members of the committee would like to hear from her um and her thoughts about what um you know
senior centers can is can do is doing will do um to address some of the issues raised in that report. And since the action would have to be taken in the next council, should you wait for the next TSO? >> I'd like to start the discussion, but
that's just my personal preference. And if she says she's not ready, then that would settle it right there. But if she says she'd be willing and ready, I'd like to start the discussion and invite the public. I mean, you know, part of what we do, I know it's we don't get many people to attend, but on certain
issues we do. Um, so I I like to start discussion, but that's just me. I we can we'll put that in the in the possible discussion list, seeing
what our time is left because we don't have that much time left. If you'd be willing to reach out to her, Andy, or I could do that, but if you'd just reach out to her and ask her if she's even available or interested, um, and if she feels like she's ready, that would be the first step.
>> U, we can talk about that. >> Um, is there a motion to adjurnn? >> So moved. >> Second. >> Second.
It's been moved and seconded. Uh start with the two people who made the motion. Bob >> I >> councelor Ryan >> I >> council Lord >> I >> and I'm an I and Jennifer has left the
meeting. It's four to zero and we are adjourned and I thank you. It's been a interesting and difficult meeting but and I will try and write something up as quickly as I can for the >> It's not fair. I know it is not fair. Yeah.
>> Because if I get if I make the uh council town manager evaluation deadline which is itself questionable at this point and be a miracle. Uh, but I will write something up about that since we need to get this recommendation that we
voted um to Paul. So, thank you Andy. All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We are adjourned.