Great. Thank you. >> And we're recording. Go. Please go. >> Yep. I heard that. Thank you very much. Uh hello everyone. It is July 11, 2026. This is a regular meeting of the community resource committee of the town council. Pursuant to chapter two of the
acts of 2025, which extends through June 30, 2027, the ability of public bodies to meet in a remote or hybrid manner without a quorum of members in person. This meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the
meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public is possible, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means.
So, I'm going to call the meeting to order. It is 101 and let's see if we can go around and pick up everybody on the council. Um, Jennifer Tao, can you hear us? >> Yes, I can hear you.
Uh, Mandy Johann >> present. >> Andy Churchill. >> Yes. >> And we are missing Alicia Walker. Um, but I'll maybe I'll do my introduction and then we'll look for her to show up.
So, we have no public hearings today. Uh, and the general public comment period. There's Alicia. Alicia, can you hear us? Yes, I can. Thank you, Pam. >> Excellent. So, we we have a full membership here. Um
I will hold public comment at the end of the meeting rather than at the beginning. So the action item today as you all know is um the uh representation of uh appointments for the ZBA that will be recommend
recommendations that will be made to the full council uh on the evening of June 15. So that's next Monday. We are holding this as a as a group and um I actually find it very very
interesting to go through this process. I always learn something in hearing the responses to the different questions. So we will be taking uh the questions each counselor has a question or two to ask and then we'll be cycling through um you
all the applicants uh in anti-lockwise uh order anti-alphabetical order um and make our way through the through the uh questions. Once we have finished the questions, uh
we will thank you again for um participating in this process and then the counselors will remain online and we'll we'll deliberate and make a decision. So all that said,
thank you for your time and energy and thinking about this position and the need that it fills in the community. It's um uh it is a responsibility of each town to have a zoning board of appeals and we are very thankful that we
have a a solid group to work with. Okay, that said, I think we have names. Um, we have names on the screen, but I think I'll just go through and I'll and I'll ask um I'll say your name and if you could just say, you know, just very
quickly an introduction. Um, Philip White. >> Uh, as everyone can tell, my name is Philip White. And no, you're not misharing. That is a southern accent. uh slight but still there. Uh now I made
the decision at 39 years old after having just run for elected office in North Carolina to return to college uh as a non-traditional age student um at Ammerst College. I'm the founder since I have been at Ammerst College. Uh not only have I served on the zoning board
of appeals as a full voting member uh but I've also studied abroad at Trinity College Dublin. I am the first recipient in the history of Ammerst College and one of I think about five Americans in the history of the world's oldest writing contest to be awarded what is
known as the hist medal which is the Irish equivalent to the pulled surprise. Uh while at Ammerst, I also uh am the founder and first president of what's known as the returning student society, which is a club that works to address
issues with non non-traditional age students and also to work with the community at large. But thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. Maybe we should keep the introductions a little shorter. Thank you. Uh let's see. We have Sarah
Morton. Hi, I'm Sarah Morton. I am a longtime resident of Ammerst. Grew up here. A lot of my family is here. Um I I work in town and
um I my background is in mechanical engineering and energy efficient design. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Francisco Bto. Good afternoon.
Um, I was born and raised in Portugal. I immigrated to United States at the age of 23. I started uh my college career at Mount Wuset Community College in Gardner, took ESL classes and interestingly enough, I
was a non-traditional student at Ammeris College. And then I went uh my wife is from Illinois. I lived in Illinois for 33 years. I practice law in Illinois. I'm only licensed in Illinois. I'm not licensed
in Massachusetts. And we returned to Ammerst in 2022. And that's just about it for now. >> Thank you. Um I'm just going across my screen here. Evan Naymith, please.
>> Hi. Yes, thank you. Um, like so many other applicants, I also returned to school later in life. Philip, we went to the same uh Harvard session at Ammerst College. That was interesting. They didn't let me in, though. Um, I do go to
Yukon Law. I'm in my second year. I'm extremely interested in housing policy and education. I have two kids in the local schools and am hoping to serve my municipality. >> Thank you. Um, Blair Nam, please.
Hi Blair Nama. Uh my family and I moved to Ammerst about six years ago now. Um over the course of my life after college served in the army and after leaving the army served in various um veterans organizations and since moving to
Massachusetts have I've have worked at the VA hospital in in Leeds and then at UMass Ammerst in the design and construction management. So very familiar with building codes etc. Not another engineer but I'm a civil engineer but most of my experience has
been um in construction. I'm not licensed in North I'm licensed in North Carolina be 20 years this this fall um but primarily now I work as a owner project manager for public projects.
>> Great. Thank you. And Emerald Henry. >> Hi everyone. Apologies for the moving away. Someone rang my doorbell, wouldn't stop ringing. Um um my name is Emerald Henry. I am a local attorney. I currently sit on the
ZBA. Um service has always been part of my family and so I continue to serve in different capacities. Um, I appreciate housing because I'm very mindful that we live in a small town that is very rent
oriented and being part of the ZBA um allows me to have a voice in how um zoning is developed and how things are managed. One of the things that I really learned and appreciated
most about my last three years is our low-income housing that came before the ZBA that we had the pleasure of being part of and seeing how the town goes about developing housing for the community. So, um, service is important to me and this is another way that I can
serve my community. >> Great. Thank you everyone. So, we have 10 questions. Some are real short, some are not. Um, but given that we have >> Damn, you didn't give me a chance to get my >> Oh, I'm sorry, Hilda. Hilda Greenbomb.
>> Um, is this answering question one or is this answering >> No, this is just a very brief introduction of yourself so that we >> Okay. I came west from Neita, Massachusetts in 1954 as a freshman at
Mount Holio. I knew Ammerst really well because there was nothing going on in Southley and I worked three summers um on Air Force contracts uh at Mount Holio and Amber still was my social life because I had friends that
were living here. Um I went away to the big city to get a PhD and married a faculty and so I have been here essentially ever since. Thank you. >> And oh, I've taught at every school in
the valley except Dammeris College if you wanted to know that. So I'm a PhD CSR, chronic sabbatical replacement. I've never heard that term before. So we have 10 questions and we are going to try to make our way through them. the
counselors will be uh taking turns asking them and we'll indicate who starts the lineup for each question and I'm going to turn it over to councelor Walker for the first question. >> Uh thank you Pam. So the first question
is what prompted you to apply to serve on the ZBA? Um and we will start with Mr. White. Uh thank you, councelor Walker. Uh if I'm being brutally honest, when I first uh got to Ammerst, uh one of my goals
outside of gaining a formal education uh was to study the difference in municipal governance state-to-state because having run for an office in municipal governance in North Carolina, obviously the role of municipal governments is completely different based off of state
constitutions. So, I actually reached out uh to councelor Hanniki. Uh she and I had coffee. Uh we discussed, you know, talk shop, talked about the stuff that only the people on this call really care about that normal people, things like storm water runoff management, things
like that that they tend to, you can see their eyes gloss over. Uh but, uh she made the recommendation that I look into potentially uh applying for the zoning board of appeals. uh looked at everything, fell in love with the committee or board rather uh and
applied. >> Thank you. >> Great. Thank you. Um next we have Mr. Naymith. >> Thank you, Councelor Rocker. Um yeah, my two special interests are law and housing. This sits at the the
intersection of those. I I wasn't even really all that interested in um in housing or zoning or anything like that until I took um land use and regulation at Yukon Law two semesters ago. Um my professor was brilliant. He's a
environmental lawyer. um wrote a couple books on environmental law and he really showed us how you can use zoning and um you know other bylaw mechanisms to help the environment and to help people and you know when I think about all of my
heroes you know Elizabeth Warren with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau um etc etc you know they all focus on housing policy and um even though policy of course is is the realm not associated
with ZBA A um I really like enforcing as well and I think that um the ZBA is is the the proper role for that. >> Thank you. Um next we have Mr. Nom. >> Thank you. Um I similar to some of the
other candidates I uh expressed interest in in the zoning of the city when discussing it with a friend of mine. um and he recommended I look into this committee um a as a way
to especially as a an associate member as a way to try to understand what's going on and and ground it in the experience I've I've gotten over the last almost 25 years as a builder and an engineer. um bringing
that experience to the community and and helping um make good decisions for the town where we're raising our family for um that that may or may not have long long-term impacts on the community.
>> Thank you. Um next we have Mr. Henry. >> Thank you, Council Walker. I should say that I'm home and my internet at home is very very not good. I live in the woods. Um so my interest um is very simple. Um
I think that the ZBA plays this important role in balancing properties owners rights with the goals of local zoning regulations. And I am interested in making sure that or helping to ensure that decisions are fair, that they're consistent, and that are in the best
interest of the community as a whole. Um, as I said, service is important to me. I do have a lot of involvement, interaction with the homeless. And so, if there's any opportunity where I can help to effectuate policy, um, that gets
more people into homes and off the streets, um, that matters to me. Um, this is also, um, my community, my home. So, that's also important. And I also very simply I enjoy reviewing complex issues um considering different perspectives and making decisions based
on established standards and facts. That is actually what I do in my everyday life as an attorney. Um, so it's a little bit of a easy transition and serving on the ZBA allow me to use these skills in a meaningful way and it helps
me learn more about land use planning, neighborhood development and quite frankly our local government. >> Thank you. Um, and my apologies. I believe I skipped over Miss Morton. >> Thank you. Um,
so I've been thinking for a while about volunteering in town and now that both of my children have graduated from Ammerst High School, I have a bit more time. And when I looked at what might fit with my experience, this seemed to
fit well with my um background in uh design engineering and construction administration. So, I'm I'm hoping that I might be able to um bring my experience to to the ZBA.
>> Thank you. Uh next we have Miss Greenbomb. >> Uh why did I apply? I applied probably four or five years ago because I attend the meetings anyway because I would write the columns on land use for the
Elmer Indy. Um I read all the packets so I'm familiar with the agenda in case of the need or um if there's need for a fifth p fifth panel person or if in the rare occasion
there's not a corner I'm there and I'm prepared and I could do the work and so I was appointed as a associate number to jump in when needed. Um, I care about my neighbors here in North Ammerst. There were no representatives
from North Ammerst on the board and haven't been for a while. Um, and I'm also interested in, you know, the the my neighbors up here care about the neighborhood and I care about my neighbors and we all care about each
other and we really need to have representation on a board or making decisions about North Ammeris because this is where all the developable land seems to be. And I think we need our
voice and currently there are no women on the board and I haven't been for a while and Ammerst touts diversity as one of its values. I don't think a member five member board of men is diverse and
that's the reason I applied because they have needed me in the past and I have come on board to help out. >> Thank you. Next we have Mr. Boto. >> Yes. So um I have a vested interest in
the community since uh that's where I live. Um I also believe that local government uh has an enormous impact uh and the citizen at large sometimes a lot more than the federal government does. And so I think it's important work
that needs to be done. Um, and I don't want to grow old complaining about the world. I wanted to volunteer my time in something that was meaningful and that it fit uh some of my my skills uh and strengths and um and that's the
reason why I applied to be a member of the community to volunteer sometime to the community where I live. >> Great. Thank you. Um and for our next question, I will pass it to Jennifer. >> Okay. Uh thank you, Councelor Walker.
And um my question will begin with um the response with Mr. Naymith. I'll just go through the order. I have it down for responding to the questions. It would be Mr. Naymith, Mr. Nam, Mr. Henry, Ms. Morton, Miss Greenbound, Mr. White, and
Mr. Bodto. And the question is if you could please explain your understanding of the role of the zoning board of appeals and again we'll start with Mr. Naymith. >> Thank you councelor Tub. Uh yeah so the ZBA is a quasi judicial body. It is not
in charge of setting policy at all. Um instead it is meant to faithfully interpret the bylaws as they are written and then to apply them fairly in a variety of circumstances. Um the ZVA's decisions are appealable
and it can go all the way up. So those decisions need to be fair and they need to be transparent. Um applicants need not only to avoid impropriy but also the appearance of impropriy. Um, so really the ZBA is weighing the scale of
interest between individual homeowners and the interests of the community, but it always needs to keep the bylaws as the north star for deciding those decisions. >> Okay. Thank you. And um we'll move on to Mr. uh Name or N. I'm sorry if I'm
mispronouncing. >> N thank you. Um my understanding is is it is the if if a potential development or project or so you know change to um or construction or something in our
town does not currently fall within the existing bylaw that they can ask for a a variance and the board of appeals is is the process to do that. Um, and so
taking taking into account the the hundred or so pages of the the bylaw and and the impact big picture or small picture of those things and and weighing those facts versus the what's being
requested as a variance and >> Okay. Thank you. Um, and we'll move to Mr. Henry. Thank you. Um, councelor Todd. So, the role of the ZBA is to be
um an independent body that reviews request for differences, special permits, and here's appeals related to zone decisions. Um the role is to apply the
zoning ordinance fairly while balancing the rights of property owners and the broader interest of the community. The board helps ensure that zoning regulations are administered consistently and that exceptions are
granted only if supported by the bylaws. And making sure that whatever decisions are made, if challenged, is grounded again in the regulations that the decisions
were first made by. Okay. Thank you. Um, Miss Morton, >> uh, my understanding is that the zoning board of appeals makes special permit decisions on zoning issues that either
fall in the gray area or are not otherwise allowed by the Amoris zoning bylaws. It makes judgments while keeping in mind the welfare, health, and safety of residents. Uh decisions must be fair and impartial with the betterment of the
town in mind. Uh the ZBA hears appeals to building commissioner decisions looking at what is stated in the zoning bylaws, the state and local codes, as well as arguments on both sides of the decision. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Um and oh next is Miss Greenbound. >> I will begin by saying that most of the land use permits that used to be controlled by the zoning board of
appeals now are allowed by right by site plan review by the planning board and that includes most of the apartment buildings downtown mixeduse buildings downtown are all allowed by rights. We don't get any big projects anymore. And
then ADUs, which used to be a big part of our business, excuse me, converted dwellings and duplexes are now ADUs that are allowed by right. And so we don't have any purview over the parking, the landscaping plans or or any
any including setback. Um, one of the big issues had been in the past that um, people with owner occupied dwellings found there was no market for
them and so they would come to the zoning board of appeals for uh, allowing them to be non-owner occupied. And we still still cover things like that. But uh for the most part we have very very
little to do compared to what the old olden times were. Uh the ZBA permits are discretionary for projects that could have negative impacts on the town or on their abutters. So our role is to listen to the presentation, ask questions of
the applicant, listen carefully to Abot's concerns, then discuss among ourselves how best to address the compatibility issues by placing conditions on the permit. Lastly, the board finds facts under 10.38 to support
the granting or denial of a permit based on the conditions. Often the applicant withdraws the application without practice if it looks like it lacks board support. That's our role from what I can tell.
>> Okay. Thank you. And um Mr. White, you're next. >> Thank you. Excuse me. Um, instead of kind of repeating and stealing from everyone everyone else who was wonderfully gone before me, uh, no, I'll
just say, uh, I see the ZBA as being the body that weighs the rights of property owners against the interests of the town and of its residents of Butters. um using the evidence uh we make decisions
and based off the bylaws as to whether these projects should go forward or not. Simply put, >> thank you. And um for the last response uh we'll move to Mr. Bau.
>> I'll be brief, I promise. Um, so my understanding is that the board hears uh applicants petitions and either grants or denies those petitions uh in compliance with the bylaws. Uh that's
succinctly what uh that's the role of the board to hear uh every petition petition fairly and give everyone everyone a chance to um yes that's basically what I have to say. >> Thank you. And I think for our next
question I actually have to look we are moving um back to you Pam. Okay, it's uh this is question number three and the order of of u folks responding will start with Mr. Nom. So what experience,
knowledge or expertise might you bring to the ZBA that can make it successful? Please include any experience you have with the planning board or ZBA. Mr. Nam. So, I haven't served on a a planning
board or ZBA specifically, but over the course of my professional career. I I've probably completed projects in 30ome municipalities, a dozen or more countries in about eight states. So, I've I've dealt with a wide
variety of regulations and um challenges that go with those regulations. Um, with that, uh, I've always grounded my approach to solving any discrepancies or or a variance by what is in the black
and white of the the local bylaw or regulation or or everything else. So, I tend to look at the bylaw and look at how it how it applies and and how the project would impact it, specifically going through the the steps in the wall.
very much a a black and white by the book type of approach. Um I found that t tends to lean towards consensus grounding things in the black and white. >> Thank you. Um this morning
came up sooner than I thought. >> I'm doing it alphabetically or >> right. Yes. Uh let's see. I've been working in design and construction of buildings since my freshman year at UMass Amoris College of Engineering in
1987. Um, my degree is in mechanical engineering. I'm a licensed professional engineer. I started work at a consulting engineering firm that also specialized in energy studies and energy efficient
design. That focus followed me through my career. I now work at an energy services company and am in charge of managing the energy studies and construction projects. I review the designs for all of our
projects. Um, and I'm also familiar with reading design documents. I have not worked in either the planning board or the zoning board of appeals. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Uh Emerald Hen Henry, please. >> Thank you, Mr. Rooney. So, one of the things that drew me to the ZBA was that, you know, the zoning bylaws are laws. So, a as an attorney, I I bring
experience analyzing laws, regulations, and complex fact patterns which are directly relevant to working on the ZBA. I mean, my professional background has trained me to review evidence objectively, interpret legal standards,
and make decisions based on the facts and applicable rules rather than personal opinions. Personally, I understand the importance of due process, fairness, and consistency in decision-m and the ZBA rule requires careful consideration of
the special permit request, their request, and zoning appeals while balancing private property rights with the interest of broader community. So, I would say that my legal training and experience evaluating competing arguments would help ensure that
applicants and residents receive a fair hearing and that the board decisions are well reasoned supported by this by the bylaws. And in addition, I am accustomed to reviewing detailed documents. You know, a project application by itself is very detailed, very long. Um, there's
lots of documents attached to it. So listen to diverse viewpoints and communicating complex issues clearly. So I believe that these are skills that I have shown would enable me to contribute effectively to the board's work and help
most importantly maintain public confidence in the zone review process because one of the things too is that more often than not when a person comes before the ZBA sometimes that may be their only and first experience with their town government. So I am mindful
of that when I meet these people. >> Thank you. Um Heler Greenbound please. >> My experience and knowledge are I was an assessor for six years. So I know the
geography of Ammerst neighborhoods from determining property evaluations during the reval years and visiting homes to evaluate tax abatement applications. Um, often when we go to people's homes and the neighborhoods, we find there are errors on the property cards and people
are being charged more than they should be. Um, I've covered the land use committees, planning and zoning, conservation for legal women voters since around 1980 and more recently for the Ammerst Indie. I was 40 years an
elected town meeting member. So I was there for most of the recent zoning bylaw amendment discussions and votes. So I'm familiar with the issues they were intended to address and uh also the the intended unintended
consequences as well as the the non-intend unintended con or unintended consequences. Um I was recruited by the planning department staff and members of the select board to serve in 2004
um on the zoning board of appeals. I served even as a associate member in those days. We asked for duties around uh of chairing but I I was the u vice chair and acted as um rotated as acting
chair for many applications. I attended the annual NASDAY planning and zoning sessions every year with staff and other members of the planning and zoning boards to to learn the the fine details of how to write a permit, what goes into
a special permit um decision and uh what what kinds of questions to ask at meetings, etc., etc. Uh I have more than 60 years experience preserving historic houses which upgraded old neighborhoods
to increase their property tax value. While we sold many to families who appreciate old houses, I kept many multif family buildings to people who wanted clean, quiet, and well-managed units. And I don't believe there's anybody else on the board who
understands landlord tenant relations or property management. Um, I also can review landscape plans, architectural plans. I know about construction and I can answer more about that if anybody wants to know, but I I I I know pretty
much what's going on and I can drop in at the moment's notice to fill in necessary. >> Thank you. Um, Mr. Boto, >> yes, I do not have experience uh with zoning boards. Um,
as an attorney, I do have, uh, a lot of experience with due process, with reviewing bylaws, understanding, interpreting bylaws, and, uh, and the like. As a trial attorney, I certainly I consider that I have a lot of experience
with um, assessing witnesses credibility uh, and being able to uh, be fair. Um the issue of impartiality and integrity certainly will be important uh when
listening and um assessing uh the applicant's petitions. So I certainly have experience um as far as that is concerned. Um, you know, I have uh experience in life um with a vast
number of um of the population. I work mostly with immigrants uh with Hispanic with Hispanic population in Illinois, but obviously it's not really different. It doesn't matter where you go. Um, as an
immigrant, I also have a different perspective uh from that uh standpoint. So, I do see myself as somebody who has um a lot of experience and um in human nature, let's put it that way. Uh and so
I think I I would be able to um be fair, objective, and uh listen uh to the applicants. um and uh and evaluate their credibility and the issues that they bring before
the board um uh fairly. >> Great. Thank you very much. Uh the last two respondents will be uh Mr. White and then Mr. Naymith. Mr. White, >> um it has been a few seconds. Could I ask you to restate the question so I can
make sure that I'm correctly answering? >> Sure. It's question number three. What experience, knowledge, or expertise might you bring to the ZBA that can make it successful? Include any experience you have with the planning board or ZBA. Thank you. Yeah. I said I want to make
sure I just wasn't wandering listing talents. No. No. So I would say obviously uh but I have a deep knowledge of quantitative information, complex data sets and also
how that intertwines with the law and in this particular instance zoning laws. Prior to coming to Ammerst, I served on the New Hver County uh parks board. During that time, I learned
far more about public parks than I think probably about anybody knows, including uh being involved in every aspect of the design and construction of uh what's known as a passive park here in New Henburg County. Uh those are parks that where you allow nature to be the
centerpiece uh as opposed to just clear cutting everything and fertilizing grass. uh they're becoming hugely popular in the United States since my time serving on the zoning board of appeals. I would say the part where I've gained the most amount of skill would have been one of
our 40B projects. Um Chair Henry, excuse me, Mr. Henry spoke to that a bit earlier, but the ability to add 30 uh homes for low-inccome and firsttime home buyers in Ammerst, uh it took us, I believe it was about 10 months, correct
me if I'm wrong, of meetings on that. It was one of the most valuable aspect or projects I've ever been involved with in my entire life. Another skill that I that I bring is I'm a big fan of being what I like to call bilingual, which as Mr. Henry said, lots of times
when residents of Ammerst come before us, we are the first interaction that they are having with their local government. So, one of the things that I asked of our former chair and we immediately adopted was that anytime we use acronyms on the zoning board of
appeals, we understand that to us it's shop talk. We know what the acronym is, but to a person in the general population who's before us, we can't expect them to know that and comprehend that. So the rule, kind of an unspoken rule that we have is if you're going to
use an acronym, you have to state the acronym and then say what it is in full. And if it needs an explanation, you give that. And only after that are you allowed to continue using that acronym because one of my chief goals is
increasing public involvement in their government. But thank you. >> Thank you. And Mr. Smith. >> Sorry, there we go. Um, yeah. Uh, so Councelor Rooney in anticipation sent us a list of the diverse qualifications
that benefit ZBA members. I think Emerald Henry wrote it. Um, it's a very thoughtful list. Um, I check a couple of the boxes. Um, in terms of construction, I built homes in New Orleans for a year and recently I dusted off my hammer to help a friend build a house in Wendell.
Beautiful spot up there. Um, in terms of landscaping, I was the foreman at Better View Landscaping based out of Hadley for several years. So, there are, uh, go stone walls all throughout Ammeris that I helped build as a teenager and I helped design many of the gardens and landscapes that you guys drive by every
day. Um, I supplemented that experience by taking um, environmental science in college as well. Um, housing, this is my focus academically. I've read thousands of pages on housing policy. I try to understand which concepts apply to Ammerst. I think you guys already know
how interested in housing policy I am. But actually right now I'm collaborating with an Ammerst tenants union to uh draft some tenants rights bylaws and maybe we'll see those introduced to you guys sometime soon. Uh in terms of law uh I'm a 2L at Yukon. Um this summer I'm
working every single day on complex real estate construction and zoning issues literally 5 days a week. Um, every year at exam time we are required to see both sides of an argument and if we don't explore the other side, we lose points
on our final exam. So, I pledge to be fair and open-minded and to apply the law fairly. >> Thank you very much. Uh, we'll move to question number four. Uh, and I'm passing the I'm passing the wand to um
Mandy Johann. >> Thank you. Uh we will start with Sarah Morton on this one. Um and the question is tell us about an experience you have had collaborating with a group particularly where opinions conflicted or the decision was controversial. So
Sarah Morton. So in design engineering and construction administration you're never working in a vacuum. Uh there are always many people involved and many moving parts. um the wants of the customer, the
architect, other engineers and contractors all come into play. Everything has to fit into the constraints of codes and the realities of the real world. On one of our current government projects, uh the company that I'm
working for has a project in California. Um the they had a bad previous experience with wireless controls on their lighting and didn't want to see any of that type of controls in the project. But then the
um and some of the buildings have hard ceilings and wouldn't be able to be retrofit with the um unless we used the wireless controls. and the reviewing engineer for the government wanted all controls upgraded.
So I had to coordinate between the parties to come up with an agreement where we would provide upgrades wherever possible and the site wouldn't have to have any of the uh wireless controls
that that all controls would be wired. So, I was able to to work with all of the people involved and come up with something that everyone in the end could could agree and we could move forward.
Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh, Emerald Henry. >> Thank you, Councy. So, for the most part, law is conflicting opinions if you're a defense attorney versus a prosecutor. So I I I think I do that every day. And
so but the idea is always that you know you are going to have people with differing and sometimes strongly conflicting views um either it's negotiations discussions um collaborative problem solving skills and
I I think I can just use my tenure on the ZBA because most of what we do requires majority vote. Um, and so not we don't come there knowing what we're going to with a
predisposition to say yes or no. And in our public hearings, you know, you can hear the different viewpoints and I like to think that um I bring people together in the sense
that somebody may I can present a different viewpoint, an angle that someone may not have considered, who was leaning one way, but then going back to what the applicant submitted or information that was presented or tying it back to the bylaws to say, but don't forget to consider this and have the
ability to have people reconsider their positions. So, um you know, the key here is identifying the underlying issue and help guide the discussions toward practical and sound solutions. I have learned the importance of remaining
respectful, objective, and focusing on the facts even when opinions differ. And so rather than advocating for a predetermined outcome, I work to understand the basis for each position and evaluate the merits of competing
arguments. And quite frankly, if I think that, you know, everything that we've seen or heard supports the granting the permit or denying the permit, I make the arguments to my colleagues to decide that way.
Thank you. Uh we move on to Hilda Greenbomb. I'm going to start off by being controversial by saying that the town already has a set of landlord tenant
um practices, rules, regulations, or whatever you want to call them that we are required to include along with the security deposit and last month's rent as part of the lease agreement between tenants and landlords. So we we already
have that. If you want to see if it needs review, maybe it does after all these years, but we already are required to tell especially the student tenants what the requirements and and the uh the
wishes of their neighbors are. And so now I will start with controversy and how to deal with that. Most permits that came before the board earlier, especially when you have the three member board, um would pack the room with with a butters because they
were controversial and for the most part they were conversions of single family homes to um mostly duplexes in the Lincoln Sunset Avenue where we had some landlords from out of town then who were notorious and I won't go into details
because you probably already know but in any event. Now, the only thing that I can see coming up that might be controversial is we've got two ADU laws for owner occupied and nonoccupied. And and if
people has an owner occupied unit, it's going to be like the owner occupied converted dwellings and duplexes. The laws for these two types are different. And people find there is no market out here for owner occupied. So they come in and ask, "So what happens
when the when the the um non-owner occupied are limited to 900 square feet and the owner occupied to,200 square f feet?" And I know measuring the square feet is controversial at this point, but if you've got two different sets of laws, how how are we going to deal with
people coming in and say, "I cannot sell my house. What am I going to do?" And and the passport has come up. Well, at least the board that Steve Judge was um he had to cover a Taylor Street that we had already covered in my earlier board
of people who lost their job and had to get a job in another town and was stuck with a house here that they couldn't sell. So, that that that's a serious thing that we do have to deal with. Um, one of the things that I found best when I was chairing the committee, when I
would have, you know, every single row in the town room packed with people is that I gave everybody a chance to speak at least once. And, you know, ask them, please don't repeat arguments that have already been
made. And and everybody has to feel that they have been heard in order to go out of the the room you know and we try to come up with uh some kind of a compromise. The best thing I noticed that has happened
recently with the sunset fearing development which was very controversial in the historic neighborhood is that sit the neighbors and or encourage the neighbors and the developer to sit down and try to come up with a compromise
that's going to work for well probably a good compromise won't work for anybody but the best compromise between you know the the developer being able to serve a need of providing as much housing as he can at the same time not having it have negative impacts on the neighborhood by
being too big. And and I like to say back in the 1980s when we had rapid growth and we had Amity Place and Spalding and a bunch of these at once everybody's permit got cut in half. They came in that the land would have allowed
I had a project on North Whitney. I had room for 13 units there and I got eight town houses. That's the way it used to be. And and I have a funny feeling that some of these issues are going to come back again to to haunt us with two
different kinds of ADUs. And so I think the best practice and we saw it on Pine Street, saw it on Sunset Fearing, encourage the two parties to talk to each other and come up with an acceptable compromise that that can be approved.
>> Thank you. Um Francisco Bau. >> Yes. So um my experience I managed a law firm for 15 years and uh so there were the
partners the associates attorneys uh and the staff and they all have different interests. they're all right at the same time. And u and of course my job was to find compromise and to make sure that
everybody was happy within the same building which was not easy. Um but I'm proud of the job that I was able to do for for that length of time. Uh I think I had a good place where people were
happy to come to work. Um, and that that's actually the fact that I cared about the staff as well as uh everybody in the room, I mean in the in the office uh is one of the things that I'm most proud about. Um, and that the firm uh is
still in existence. And so I think I do have uh that type of experience of being able to compromise when needed and to collaborate with the people I work with. >> I think question correct. >> Yes.
>> Okay. >> Thank you. Uh Phil White, >> there we go. Um, I think if any of you have had a chance to tune in to any of the zoning board of appeals meetings during my service, the past three years, uh, you'll see how I work to not only
meet conflict, but to find compromise. Uh, if you watch one of the meetings, you'll notice something about me. Uh, I tend to say this a lot, but it's the truth, which is I talk a lot, but I always listen more. Uh during ZBA
meetings, you'll rarely hear me just chime in because I see my role there as to listen. My favorite meetings are when the petitioner is before us and they're the room is full of people because to me
that's people being involved in their government and I enjoy hearing what they have to say and hearing issues that we may not have seen that staff may not have seen that only and a butter might be aware of even among the board members ourselves. We don't always agree
and during those times is when we chime in, we share our thoughts. We share our interpretation of the bylaw. We come to a compromise with every single decision that is made by the zoning board of appeals. And my service over the past three years is something that I'm
exceptionally proud of. >> Thank you, Evan N. Smith. >> Uh yeah. Um, I've answered this question like three times in the last month before this very board, but here we go. I'm a dad and a husband. Someone is
always upset by the results of my family's daily debates, but um, you know, my wife and I, we she's really trained me uh to make sure that everybody knows that they're being treated fairly and honestly. And I think that that takes a away a lot of the
sting of defeat. Um, I've applied that concept to my work at three Michelin star restaurants, my volunteer work, my legal career. My goal is to make somebody feel heard. And um, you know, I just want to say that I appreciate the
very thoughtful answers of all of these other applicants. I hear what you're saying and I've learned a lot today. So, thank you. >> Thank you, Blair Nom. >> Thank you. Um so experience with collaborating on a with a controversial
decision. I I had for a while a portion of my career work doing um some complex projects at US embassies and it was a part of those projects. We would visit the project prior to purchasing all the materials in the US and and having them
inspected and shipped and everything. And typically we would meet with the second in the chain of command at the the embassy and and understand and communicate the the expectations on both sides and come to a meeting of the
minds. Um in one particular case we I walked into the the meeting and it was the ambassador and the after introductions the first first words were um oh this project's not not going to happen. it's not going forward at this
time. And you know that was a you know a very stunning thing when you've traveled halfway around the world for for a project and and have invested that time and everything. So um one of the things that that illustrated with when and and at the end of the project you we we
ended up doing the project but what what um what had happened is in the past that that ambassador in a previous role had been um had had something misrepresented to them and and not been able to change
something on a similar project. And this particular case once the project was complete that space was kind of uh was segregated from the rest of the the embassy I'll say. So, you know, I I bring up that story and I tell that bit
of a story to to say it's it's one of the things that's really taught me to um listen to understand and listen to understand their their concerns and listen and understand the motivation behind those concerns because a lot of times it is a personal experience or it
affects them deeply personally. Um when you take that that personal connection and understand it and then you you actually separate that from the the facts of what what they actually want
out of it. It wasn't necessarily in this case that the project couldn't go forward. It was that the given footprint would significantly reduce available space for other functions in the consulate. um and she had had wanted to
protect future flexibility in the in the consulate. So we worked through we we we put the the project uh goals versus her concerns and work through that process. So it's really it's a I say all that to say there's
there's controversial things in in construction projects daily, weekly, monthly, right? So, it's it's understanding and listening to understand those motivations and then lining up the the facts or the the
actual components and finding that commonality and then figuring out what's the gray and where how do we need to move the the needle one way or another to get to a a compromise that everyone can can move forward with. So, um, could
tell you a lot more stories about controversy, but that was one of the more, uh, publicly appropriate ones. >> Thank you. Uh, I will now pass the baton over to Andy Churchill. >> Thank you, Mandy. Um,
so I'm going to start with Emerald Henry. And the question is, when interpreting a provision, a provision of the zoning bylaw, should the ZBA consider the intent of that provision, its common sense meaning,
and or some other factor. So what factors h to uh consider in interpreting a provision of zoning bylaw intent, common sense meeting or some other factor? So I would say that um when interpreting
should we should first look at the plain language of the BA itself. If the language is clear and unambiguous then it should generally be applied as written. If there is ambiguity then the board may consider the intent and the purpose of the provision. the overall
structure of the bylaw as well as any other law and how the provision fits within the broader regulatory scheme. So common sense um can be helpful in understanding how provision operates in practice but should not override the
actual language or intent of the bylaw because one of the things that you want I and I know that you know the ZBA is not governed by precedent. Um but one of the things you want is consistency. Um the board should always try for
consistency with prior interpretations where appropriate while ensuring that each case is decided on its own facts and applicable um standards. So ultimately um the ZB's role is not to
rewrite the bylaw or substitute its policy preferences. Um, it's rather we should interpret and apply fairly, reasonably, and in a manner that I would say advances the
intended purpose while still remaining faithful to its text. Because in our current bylaw, in every decision that we make, there are certain provisions that must be read and applied. If it's not covered by that provision, we cannot make a finding.
Thank you. Um, next we'll have Hilda Greenbomb. >> The answer to the question of interpretation of the bylaw, my answer is it depends and it um, yes, no, and all of the above. I use my best judgment
depending on the merits of the case. The former three-member board under the old regime decided what sections of the bylaw applied to any given application and we took our bylaw to every meeting and and page through it rather than now
where the staff pretty much hands us a fed play of what sections they believe are applicable and and how to deal with it. Um, in any event, um, well, now all applications receive staff
review with recommendations for action before anybody comes before the board. So it seems now, most recently, the board no longer considers things like parking or landscaping plans which are dur
before even through Steve Judge. We looked at landscape plans etc. um and parking plans and they they were required as part of an application. So, we no longer consider these things as conditions on the uh
special permit. What what the landscaping plans used to say is this is what you're going to do. And the building inspector wouldn't give a um a certificate um to to move in, I forget what you call it, the certificate to move into the house until all the plants
were planted and growing and there was a condition that they be be maintained or replaced if they die. Well, we don't deal with that anymore and um maybe we should. I don't know. But but it is part of the Bible. Um
I have known the practices of at least four different building inspectors over the last decades and they had their own ways of interpreting the Dubai law and and uh some of them were very very rigorous and
some of them are slightly more re more relaxed but um I'll tell you the rig rigorous ones meant that if it said that a person has to come back to a bylaw if there were
any change in the exterior of the building they had to come back and um that led to some rather interesting hearings but in any event um I try to try to balance between what an applicant wants and what the issue is
the abotus come up with and um try to come up with a compromise. That's the best thing I can say. But sometimes you have to bend a little because the bylaws, one of the things that happened when we made um amendments to the bylaw and town meeting that some
of the earlier planners didn't pick up all the places in a bylaw that referenced the same information and they were in conflict with each other. Um so sometimes you have to work those differences out also and then different planners decide on different things that
are important to be enforced depending on who knows what but that's where >> thank you. >> Um next we'll hear from Francisco BTO. >> Yes I would follow the plain language of
the rule. Um, as a member, it's not my role to be a trailblazer and disregard the bylaws. Um, if I just happen to disagree with the rules, um, if the bylaw is not clear or if there's a novel issue,
um, then I would search the intent um, of the ones who drafted the bylaws. Um, I'll try to find out what the purpose or the design of the drafter was, uh, and use common sense to make a
decision. Um, and that's my answer. >> Thank you. Um, Philip White. >> Thank you. Uh, I would echo what previous applicants have said. Uh, initially my first examination on
everything is the plain language included in the bylaw. Uh, I'm a big fan of there's no need to interpret it if it's spelled out in front of you. However, we do run into situations where we do have to consider the intent and the purpose of individual additions to
the bylaw. Uh, I would I generally try to stay away from anything that someone might deem common sense. Uh, only because what is that? What is common sense? Does that mean knowing how to change the, I don't know, carburetor in a 1968 Chevy Camaro?
Because that's common sense to some guy people, but completely not to other people. My application to everything is the plain language in the bylaws and then looking at intent and purpose. During my time on the ZBA, we've been very lucky in that we have staff
recommendations. We can interact with staff. We've had great involvement with KP Law as far as any sort of questions that we may have as to far as where this may fall fall. But thank you. >> Thank you. Um
Evan Nason. >> Thank you, Councelor Churchill. Um, yeah, I took stat statutory interpretation class just two semesters ago, so I've spent like more time in my life answering this question than I ever thought was even possible. Um, most
judges today prefer textualism. So, that's my answer as well. We should use a literal and plain spoken reading of the bylaws. Um, this is to say that I would not consider legislative intent unless the bylaw itself was literally
impossible to interpret otherwise. We have a nimble town council. So, if the intent of the bylaw conflicts with the words of the bylaw, it's the town council's job to change the bylaw. This cannot be overstated that reinterpreting the bylaws is not the ZVA's job. They
should instead apply the words on the page to the evidence before them. This might sound wooden and archaic, but sometimes that's just how property law works. The benefit of this approach though is that all property owners are treated equally and the ZBA gets to maintain the community's trust. Uh this
might not be the answer that everyone agrees with, but it's the approach that is strongly favored by the vast majority of American judges and I think that it's the the beneficial approach for the ZBA. >> Thank you. Uh Blair Nam
Thank you. Um my my answer really does echo a lot of the other candidates. Um it's it's the plain language and then where there where that plain language is not clear in our like our our bylaw is prescriptive and descriptive. So there
should not be many parts of that. But knowing that we need a consensus of the board when the five members are meeting we'll need that consensus. So in the case that it is not it's it's discussing the best approach for long-term and
considering all of the um the the unique factors because no no two situations are going to be the same. So where the plain language fails it's it's that consensus with the group on on the best approach forward.
Thank you. >> Thank you. Uh Sarah Morton. Um yeah, I would say that where the provision of the bylaw is not clear and we have to interpret
um that it should be taken on a case-bycase basis and that both the intent and common sense should come into play and hopefully the bylaw already makes common sense. But um
also I can't predict the future so I can't say that there would never be some other factor that arises but yeah I I I think hopefully most of the time
uh we would be able to come to an agreement on what the intent was when the there is some gray area in the law that already exists. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Uh Emerald Henry. >> Oh, we started with with you. So, >> I think Yeah, >> I think that was first council church. >> I'm going to pass this on to uh councelor Walker. >> Thank you. Uh so our next question and I
will be starting with um Miss Greenbomb is what's your opinion of waiverss, exceptions, dimensional special permits in the zoning bylaw? When should they be used and when should they not be used?
In terms of waiverss, the only place I can think of where that comes up as an issue is with chapter 40b applications, affordable housing that um you know comprehensive permit that is
only has to be approved by the zoning board of appeals with with advice from all the other panels. But one of the parts of the the biggest part of the 40B is that they are allowed to wave as many things as they want to wave which for
the Kohl's road subdivision as I apartments mixeduse buildings there had pages and pages and I want to say a hundred but a hundred more than a hundred may have been the conditions on that permit but that's the only place I
can remember over many years that waivers are ever used. Uh variances are very heavily controlled by the law. Um the the very specific criteria that must be met to give a
variance are basically the building has to be between a rock and a hard place. If you have a rock in the middle of your property, then you can change. We have the power to to give the variance to the setback for an example. But the criteria all have to meet and be met and they are
very rigorous. Um I believe that we have zoning bylaws because people want to know how the land around their their most expensive asset is going to be rele regulated. What what
can happen in their house where most of their assets reside. um they want the value of their property to be maintained. They want to be able to sell it. They want basically they want regulation of the uses and structures that can be in their
neighborhood next door. So I guess the bottom line for that is that's why we have zoning laws. If if everybody wanted to have the libertarian view of it's my property, I can do what I want with it. Um, I think there would be a lot of
unhappy neighbors to a to a totally libertarian view. So, we have bylaws and they need to be enforced. >> Thank you. Um, next we have Mr. Boto. >> Yes. Um
I think that the bylaws um and I haven't read to be perfectly honest I haven't read all the bylaws uh that are in place but uh I I think they regulate uh the variances and uh and waiverss and so on
and I would follow the the guidelines provided in the bylaws. I also think that um we need to respect not just the person who's applying for the variances or the waiverss but uh we need to take into
account the interests of the community and how those variances and waivers would have an impact on um on the community itself. That's my answer. >> Thank you. Um and next we have Mr.
White. Uh thank you. Uh I believe the role of the ZBA when it comes to things like waiverss, variances, uh is to speak with staff, to speak to the members of the other boards that may be involved in whatever application is before you to
and to weigh the potential outcome of whatever waiver is being granted uh as to what the town wants and what the abuters want. what the potential outcomes could be. I think this is one of those situations where everyone
applying here, I have no doubt, wants what is best for the town of Ammerst. In this situation, it's the zoning board of appeals that applies that by weighing all of the interests and making a decision off of that. But the bylaws are our bedrock that we build everything
else off of. >> Thank you. Uh, next we have Mr. Naymith. Thank you, Councelor Walker. Um, yeah, so transparency and consistency are key. People will lose faith in the ZBA if
they feel that the bylaws are being applied differentially. Waivers, exceptions, and dimensional special permits are legitimate, deliberate parts of the bylaw. They're not loopholes. the town council built these flexibility mechanisms in because there's really no
one-sizefitsall um bylaw that can apply to every single lot, every single building in every single context in Ammerst. But balance is key. Uh ZBA decisions are judicially reviewable. So poorly reasoned decisions can result in embarrassment and legal
fees for the town. Um as someone with a upcoming bar exam, I'm not going to risk putting my finger on the scale or even after I pass the bar. uh it would be professionally and personally embarrassing to get a decision wrong and it would be harmful to neighbors and to the trust and the ZBA generally. So
while waiverss and exceptions are critical tools for promoting efficiency and environmentalism, they must be applied transparently and consistently. >> Thank you. Uh next we have Mr. Nam. >> Thank you. Um I I would
echo some of the the uh other uh responses so far. It's it there are there the as I said in a previous answer that the the bylaws are prescriptive and descriptive and they have these these methods for for a um something that
doesn't fit in the box perfectly. So, um I and I'd also echo that every time, uh any of these not perfect square oper or opportunities or projects come it and
they have one of these uh variances approved if sets a precedent. So, it's a pretty slippery slope that soon starts to to poke holes in our in our well-written bylaws. So that has to be
weighed very thoughtfully and and I I it's we have we have a board not an individual for a reason and I think it's a a great place to apply again a consensus of the board in in the interpretation to ensure that we're not
um not going too far sideways or setting a precedent that's going to change the community in a way that the bylaws don't support. Thank you. Um, next we have Miss Morton. >> I will be brief. I think that the
surrounding buildings and conditions, safety, community interest, as well as the intent of the bylaws should all be considered on a case-bycase basis. >> Thank you. Uh, next we have Mr. Henry.
>> Thank you, Councelor Walker. So, I'm of the opinion that waiverss, exceptions, and I think you said dimensional relief um are important purpose in zoning bylaws because they provide flexibility in situations where strict application
of the bylaw may not be appropriate or may create practical difficulties. Keyword unpractical. At the same time, they should be granted carefully and only when the applicable bylaws um
standards are met. So, in my view, zoning bylaws are designed to promote order development, protect neighborhood character, advance public welfare. Therefore, waiverss and exceptions should not become routine substitutes for compliance with it own requirements.
And like most people say, each request should be evaluated on its individual merits based on the facts presented and the criteria established in the bylaw. So yes, um this is something that um it
does serve a purpose, but um granting those should be grounded in the applicable bylaw. >> Thank you. Um and I think that was everyone for that question. So, I will pass it back to Jennifer. >> I'm sorry, my unmute button wasn't
working. Uh, thank you, councelor Walker. Okay, the question that um I will be asking and the first respondent will be uh Mr. Boto Bto and then Mr. White, Mr. Namith, Mr. Nom, Miss Morton,
Mr. Henry and Ms. Greenbound and the question is what is your approach to incorporating public input into um decision-m and again we'll start with you Mr. Bau. >> I think that uh public opinion is
important. I think if they reside in Ammerst uh they should have a voice and I think we should not be deaf to people's complaints or opinions or constructive criticism. Uh I think it's all important. It will be a problem if
um their opinions um go against the bylaws. Uh certainly that would be be a problem but it will be a problem for whoever drafts the bylaws. U I mean I think again I think I see the role of the members to follow the bylaws. At the
same time we cannot be stoned. We need to hear what the community has to say. Uh, and I think that's extremely important to um to be open to uh to opinions and constru constructive criticism.
>> Thank you. >> We cannot hear you. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Uh, Mr. White, you are next on the list. >> Could you restate the question again? I'm sorry. Like Mr. Henry, I'm having some internet problems. So, >> I'm sorry. Um, yeah. The question is,
what is your approach to incorporating public input into uh the decision-making process? >> Thank you. Sorry to have you keep repeating questions. >> No, I think public input is one of the most valuable assets that the members of the ZBA have. Uh they are along with the
applicants the people that we serve uh or some of the people that we serve. Uh their input is absolutely invaluable. Uh, I don't really make any decision until hearing whatever public input is is there because that's how valuable I
see it as being when we're rendering decisions. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, and we'll move to Mr. Daymith. >> Thank you, Councelor uh Rooney. Um, yeah, public input is very important. Um that said, incorporating public opinion
is generally more the purview of the planning board and the town council. Um even if the whole town is talking about an upcoming ZBA decision, ZBA members must keep the written bylaws as their north star. That said, public opinion becomes part of the record that the ZBA
is tasked with reviewing. And when it becomes part of that record, I would weigh the public input by its merits, not necessarily its volume. Sometimes public opinion, even when it doesn't help decide whether to implement a project, sometimes that public opinion
can still show you how to implement a project, right? Like how can we minimize noise concerns for the neighbors? What specific traffic issues do they raise? How can we incorporate that lived experience into the problem solving that the ZBA is tasked with? Of course,
property issues often fall victim to collective action problems, and we can't always allow neighbors to have a veto, but their opinions are very important to incorporate into the decision-making process, even when they're not dispositive. The bylaws will always be the first input, but public input helps
shape win-win solutions for the ZBA. >> Thank you. Uh, Mr. Nam, >> thank you. Um I I I would approach incorporating any public opinion um based on you know how how that public
opinion is actually uh shows any potential pitfalls or or issues with with the project that that were possibly not considered or or not
part of uh or not patently obvious um as part of the application. But it it it's a it's a consideration. But the bylaws are we are uh I view the the zoning appeals committee as
um applying the bylaws consistently. So opinions, you know, they can they can c certainly have some merit according to the bylaws, but it's not necessarily the the thing that should um
be what makes the determination. and it could possibly tilt it one direction or another if it's, you know, on a razor's edge, but it's certainly not a um not not the most critical factor to to making those
decisions. And that to me, that's the bylaws. So, >> thank you. >> Thank you. Uh Miss Morton, uh you're you're next. So, I would listen to input um from the public and weigh it against what is
being requested and look at how both match with the zoning bylaws and consider how the decision affects the health and well-being of the neighbors and the town. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. And we'll move on to Mr. Henry.
>> Thank you, Councelor Tob. So public input is an important part of the decision making process because well the residents, the property owners and other stakeholders often provide valuable information about how a proposal may
affect the community and by extension their community especially their direct abutters. Um my approach is to listen carefully and respectful to all viewpoints. ensure that everyone has an opportunity to be heard and considered information presented as part of the
overall record. However, at the same time, I believe that ZBA decisions must ultimately be based on the facts, the evidence, and the applicable zoning bylaws. While public opinion is an important consideration, decisions should not be
based solely on the number of people who support or oppose the proposal. Public comments should be evaluated for the relevant information they provide regarding potential impacts, neighborhood conditions, compliance with zoning requirements. Um, but at the end
of the day, um, if something is approved or denied and it gets challenged in court, the rationale cannot be we didn't follow the bylaws because of public opinion. >> Okay. Thank you. And uh the last um Miss
Greenbound, the last respondent question. >> Yes, hearings are to hear. We wouldn't be bringing applications to a public hearing if the neighbors didn't
have a stake. In fact, all the neighbors within 300 ft of the boundaries of a project have standing in court. They are the only ones who have standing in court in order to appeal. Therefore, if we're going to have a hearing, then you have
to give people who take their time to con come to these hearings to listen to them and let them be heard. When I was a chair of a meeting, I gave everybody in the room the opportunity to speak, which I already told you, with
the caveat that they not repeat anything anybody already said. But basically the abutters are the only ones who have the rights to appeal. It is a hearing. It doesn't matter what anybody outside of 300 ft has to say because they don't have any standing in court. The other
criterion that the court applies is what are your damages? And damages pretty much have to be serious damages like the the direction of the water flow on somebody's property cannot
poison somebody's well next door. I mean they're that serious and so they have to be taken seriously. But all of us within 300 ft have a right to be heard and they are the only ones with the power to appeal.
>> Thank you. Are you you can continue >> what >> I I didn't know if you had something to add. >> No, I started already. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, Miss Greenbound. Okay. And the next question to is uh Pam's.
>> Yeah. >> So, this this is a question that you all have answered in some shape or form already. Uh, it's an opportunity. Uh the question is what else would you like us to know about you that makes you a strong candidate for the ZBA? If there's
some story that you've that that comes to mind again um otherwise we're you know we've heard a little bit about you already. Um I'm going to start with Mr. Naymith and the order will be Naymith, Mr. Nam, Miss Morton, Mr. Henry, Miss
Greenbound, Mr. Boto and Mr. White. So we'll start with Evan Naymith. Ah, I think you guys already know enough about me, but uh let's see. Councelor Tob, I misspoke earlier. I thought Councelor Rooney had asked me the seventh question. My apologies and thank you for asking. Um, councelor Rooney,
thank you for sending those questions to me this morning. It's embarrassing that those got lost in my inbox. Thank you for looking out for me. I also just want to say thank you to all of the town counselors for the thoughtful questions and thank you to the other applicants for their diverse and illuminating perspectives.
Thank you. Um, Mr. Nam, >> thank you. Um, I I don't really have much much else to add. I I have had a lot of success in my career building consensus whenever there's a a problem. I approach things like an engineer
through the black and white first and then figure out the gray and where you have an overlap. So, um, that that would be my approach here. I want Amoris to continue to thrive as a community for the next generation. Um, and I think
this is a great way to to serve the community and help see that vision to fruition. I appreciate everyone's time today. Thank you. >> Thank you, U, Miss Morton. >> So, um, I guess I would add that I'm a
homeowner in Ammerst. I live here year round. My children and family live here. I grew up in Ammerst. My parents' home is just up the hill from my home. And I care deeply about what happens here. Um I, as I said before, I have a strong
background in building design and construction administration and I really appreciate you uh asking me to be here. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Henry. >> Thank you, Councelor Rooney. So I I
would emphasize that um you know my my commitment to approaching every matter before the ZBA has always been with independence, diligence and open mind. Um I understand that serving on the board requires setting aside personal
preferences and focusing strictly on the standards set forth in the bylaws. And so you know I'm accustomed to working through complex and sometimes contentious issues. Um, you know, having done this over the last three years, I
mean, public comments sometimes are very contentious. People have very strong opinions and feelings and I appreciate that they have a vested interest and so as I said, sometimes that may be their only voice with their
town government. So I approach that with respect, with commitment. Um, being very mindful and careful. Um, and so I review decisions carefully. I review the applications carefully where
appropriate, do the site visits. Um, and so I have that discipline. It is um, people come before you. Um, it's not just an application on paper. It's people's lives. It's very important to the person that is there. And so I have
a strong respect for procedural fairness and due process. And I also understand and I think it's important to say is consistency in zoning decisions and the long-term impacts that they have on community development. So I take
seriously the responsibility to ensure that each application is evaluated on its own merits while maintaining fairness and predictability in the application um of the bylaws. And I think that
from a very practical perspective, you know, one of my favorite things to do is to walk around downtown. I I think um I don't know if anyone is how much time you spend in town hall but on a good day I take no less than three walks just walking around. So I I love my
community. Um I'm committed to service and I want to be a voice in what happens in my community and this allows me to do so. >> Thank you. Green bomb.
Well, like Sarah, my children and now my grandchildren were were brought up in this town and they are coming back now after having graduated from college to work here at least for the summer, maybe
longer. But it's really wonderful and I want to make sure that the town that they grew up in is as receptive and as welcoming to them in the future as as it has been in the past. and and I would say that I have the
technical skills and the knowledge um knowledge of the town and of the bylaws to continue to serve on the zoning board. Um I will also note that there hasn't been as much diversity on the board as the town espouses
and there is no one from North Ammeris as I said before and we're where all the developable land seems to be. uh and there are no women. There haven't been any women on the board in at least 10 years. And now you have an opportunity to put two on and and uh that would make
a very loud signal to the town that you believe you are willing to practice what you preach. >> Thank you. Um Mr. Boto, please. >> Yes. Uh I do not want to repeat uh
myself. Um, I think at this point you heard enough about my background and who I am. And um, I would just say that uh, I lived in Illinois for 33 years like I said before and when we decided
to move, we could have moved any place we wanted to. And I just decided to come back to the place where I've been the happiest. Uh, I'm comfortable here. I have friends, college friends mostly and family around. Uh so that's the reason
why I came back and um thank you for considering me. Appreciate it. >> Thank thank you very much. Um and fill a point please. >> So things that you don't know about me. I am a left-handed Piscy. No.
Uh no I uh I would just say I'm an exceptionally detail- oriented person. uh like I would assume and I suspect to be true from everyone on this call, I understand that democracies cannot function without people who are
passionate about public service and I think everyone on this call has a passion for public service. Um it's definitely something that was deeply ingrained into me and it's something that I hope to be doing, you know, for as long as I'm able. I will lastly echo though, Mr. Henry is not exaggerating
about how much he likes to walk through downtown Ammerst. We've probably seen each other like a half a dozen times ever. >> But thank you. >> Thank you very much. Um, question number nine goes to councelor Hanni.
>> Thank you. Uh, we are getting quicker. Uh, these last two that I and Andy will ask are are more straightforward. So this one is please confirm that you have the time to commit to meetings, hearings, and site visits. And if you are currently serving on any other town
boards or committees, do you see any conflicts with serving on multiple boards? And can you manage the time commitment for all? Um, we are going to start with uh Mr. Nom. >> Thank you. Yes, I have the time. No, I'm not on other committee committees, so I
do not have any conflicts. Thank you. >> Thank you, Miss Morton. I am not on any other boards or committees. The document that you sent stated that the meetings for the ZBA are on the 2nd and fourth Thursday from 6:00
to 9:00 and I do not have any prior commitments on those days. I work in town, so I'm close by for site visits and I do not travel very often. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Henry.
Um yes and so yes I I I have the time I I um time works the commitment is reasonable um I do the site visits and I currently serve on the committee for
safety justice um social justice so there are no conflicts there I've been if reappointed nothing will change in what I've been doing for the last three years. Thank you, Miss Greenbomb. >> I have the time. I'm not traveling anymore. My family is here or my
daughter popped up from Florida for two days, so she's here now. And I'm not going anywhere near those airplanes. And I intend to live a few years longer. >> Thank you, Mr. Bau. >> I also intend to live a little longer
hopefully. Yes. Um I am not in any committees. I'm semi-retired. I have the time. >> Thank you, Mr. White. >> Uh, yes, I have the time. Uh, and I serve on no other committees or board, so there is no conflict there. Thank
you. >> Thank you. And Mr. Nmith, >> thank you, counselor. Yes, I have the time and availability. >> Thank you. I pass it on to Andy. >> All right. Um final question is basically are you
interested in being a full member, an associate member or either? So um we will start with Mr. N. >> I'm sorry I it's whether it's an associate member or a full member. I'm for associate member. Are you interested
in a full member of associate membership or either? >> I I only applied for the associate member at this time. I feel like that would be a uh appropriate role for the first involvement so I could become
familiar with the the bylaws and and potentially serve in a different capacity in the future. >> Great. Thank you. Uh Miss Morton, >> I would be willing to do either. Thank you.
>> Thank you. Uh Mr. Henry, >> I'm looking to be appointed to full member. >> Okay. Thank you. Um Miss Greenbomb, >> I would really like to be a full-time
member if that's possible as I had been in my last terms. Uh but I guess if you find somebody better, pick them, please. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh Mr. Bau.
>> I'll be comfortable with either role. Uh but I believe I applied only for the associate role as a associate member. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh Mr. Dwight, >> I am uh asking to be reappointed as a
full member. and Mr. Nay Smith. >> Thank you, Councelor Churchill. I would love to be a full member, but you know, associate would be fine, too. Emerald, you could coach me up. >> Okay, that that is all of our questions
and thank you for surviving that. I'm gonna pass it back to uh Council Rooney. >> Thank you. and I and I will express appreciation from all of us for your time and energy and your interest in serving the town in some capacity. It
really makes it makes the town tick and um it would be a very different place if we didn't have as much engagement from folks in the community. So, we appreciate you very much. We will we will let you go back to your lives. If you want to sit in the audience, you're
welcome to do that. We will be deliberating um for the next period of time and um hope you all have a really nice rest of your day. Stay cool and take care. Thanks very much. >> Have a good day.
>> Thank you. Thank you, counselors. I'm suggesting that next year we review our questions and perhaps reduce the number of them. There are some there are some that that
end up being um redundant, but they're all good. They're all good questions. So, um, let's see. I just want to make sure that folks have, um,
I don't actually see anybody in the in the attendees, although it lists me six people showing in the in the attendees list. Maybe somebody can confirm that we um, we only have five panelists here.
Okay. So, >> yes, I moved every I moved everyone to attendees. >> Wonderful. Thank you so much. Um, thanks, Athena. So, uh, Andy and I chatted a little bit um prior to this meeting to
perhaps make this this process a little smoother than than the last round. And um it felt reasonable to have everybody go around and just talk about the strengths of people that they that
struck them. Um and we'll get through we'll ask everyone the same questions, you know, who um what stood out to you in the respondents. Uh at that point, we will then um ask for people's top
choices. And uh Andy and I talked about two or three top choices. We have two full members positions to fill and um a number of associate positions to fill. Um and I don't know if we want to go
into any more detail than that, but I am opening the floor to thoughts. Andy >> did we we were thinking that we might yeah just give our thoughts generally and then we would discuss who would be
for full first and then we would talk about who for associate later. Does that make sense? >> Yes. Yes. >> Do you want to go ahead? I thought you were raising your hand to go. I mean I first
>> I was I sort of you know very scientifically making stars next to my um the name you know certain points that were being made and I was going back looking at who had had more stars and actually I say I thought it was a really
deep I mean really impressive pool >> and hard about >> the quasi judicial nature of this role and you So the black and white versus the gray and the rights of a butters versus the needs of the town versus the
needs of the applicant and I learned a lot just from listening to them. So um I thought that um the current chair Emerald Henry uh showed his understanding of the you know the role and um just was very I thought he was
very strong in a number of his responses. He's really focused on uh you know he has a legal the legal training that I think is going to be helpful in ensuring that we don't spend a lot of time litigating decisions that
are made by the ZBA afterwards. Um, I think the his focus on how to interpret the the bylaw and using the plain language of the bylaw and then, you know, how to how to work to build consensus in areas where the bylaw is
not clear. Um, was great. So, I I would say he was very strong. Um, the other one who had the most stars for me actually was Mr. Nom. Um, I thought that he had a practical approach. She had wide range of experience
and he was able to express um you know the this sort of complex task in concrete ways that I think would be very helpful to people. I thought he had
a good n good way about him that's sort of practical and down to earth and and I just thought he had both career experience and an understanding of the role and so he he he said he's just going for associate so that that but that was very I thought he was very
strong. The other two that I would mention would be Ms. Morton. I thought her engineering approach and her um she was able to sort of cut to the chase and and you know recognize when she didn't need to say more than she did but when
when she said things I listened and I felt that they were on on target. And Mr. White is currently serving as a full member and I think he brings knowledge in that role. Um and uh so he also um
you know stood out to me. Um, those were those are the my four top. I could I could also see other, you know, others being in that role, but those are my the four that jumped out at me. >> Great. Thank you. Thank you.
Anyone want to lay out your your thoughts, Jennifer? Yeah, I want to echo what >> Yeah, I'm sorry. Uh, echo what Andy said. I thought this was a really strong applicant pool and it actually made me
feel, you know, appreciative that I live in Ammerst because people were um informed and knowledgeable and committed and brought such a wide range of experiences. The fact that we all ended up in Ammerst uh speaks, you know, just
volumes for the town. But so um I won't I thought maybe I would just list who I thought I sort of had four. I I thought they were all excellent, but in terms of um for the full, you know, without having to, you know, critique each one,
I think that um Emerald Henry has served, you know, he's he's been an excellent member of the ZBA and I've, you know, just heard, you know, wonderful um what I've heard about his leadership that so I think that he
should he he would be my top vote um for another for a full-time um appointment. Um I would also support Philip White who's, you know, served well and would like to serve another um three-year
term. I thought, um Sarah Morton um would be an excellent addition with her professional experience, her, you know, years in Amherst and then she's also had experience, you know, away from Amherst. Um, and I, uh, thought her, you know,
responses were very thoughtful, as all the candidates responses were thoughtful, but, um, so I would, uh, Sarah Morton was someone I could certainly see as a full-time member, and I agree with Andy that I thought Mr. Nam
would be excellent. Um, I don't know if he's open to being a full-time, you know, if he really prefers to begin as an associate, but so he should certainly be an associate, if not a full-time. But I um you know thought we had a a really strong the strongest pool maybe of that
we've ever had. So I really appreciate that. >> Thank you Elsa Walker. >> Um yeah, I want to sort of echo what Jennifer said about the pool. Um I think that those were great interviews. I really um enjoyed hearing everyone's
responses and I think everyone seemed to be a good candidate. So I really liked that. Um, and I just wanted to speak really briefly because I have to turn off my camera and run outside just to get my kids off the bus very quickly and then I can come back, but so that you have some basis to continue the
conversation. Um, my uh top uh contender was also Mr. Henry. I just thought he seemed very uh confident and straightforward in his answers. Um, I had in second Miss Morton. Um, I thought
that she had great experience. Um, I loved that her connection and background. Uh, being from Amherst and having a lot of that passion for the town. Um, and getting some new folks in, uh, would be a nice priority and some, uh, more diversity. So, I think that
those would be my top two choices. Um, I also had number three as Mr. Nom for for similar reasons. Um, but am sort of rethinking now that he shared that he wanted to be an associate member. Um, sort of that. And then I also had Mr. White. So, those came in actually as my
top four. Um, so I just wanted to put that out there and I will rejoin the conversation more thoughtfully momentarily. >> Thank you. >> Hope the bus is on time. >> Mandy. >> Um,
my top two were Emerald Henry and Philip White. Um, I agree that Blair Nom should be an associate. I wouldn't want to put him on as a fool if that is not what he wants.
Um, so he is in some sense my top choice for an associate member. Um, even though I know we're not talking about associates. Um, that and if I needed to name a third um, person to consider for full, it would be Evan Naymith. I
thought I know he's a little bit controversial in town um but his knowledge of what a quasi judicial body is and his ability to directly speak to
his current um advocacy and having to separate that from his ability, you know, his point on the ZBA um sort of confronting it headon. I I had to give a lot of props to um and you know he he
talked very knowledgeable about waiverss and variances and and interpreting using plain language as many others did. Um and you know keeping the language of the bylaw as as the main thing that you have
to look at when you're considering applicants. So he would be my third choice for a full membership beyond Everald and Phillip. >> Thank you. Um I will I will
echo everyone in saying I was delighted with the pool. Um and everyone brings great strengths different different sets but but great strengths to the table. Um, I
don't see any reason not to reappoint Emerald Henry um to another full term. So, I would I would put my star on that in that column. Um and uh thinking about um
the distribution of of people on the committee, I I appreciated that Sarah Morton um is sort of in a stage where she can
now focus on um contributing to the civic life. And I think it's been clearly a focus of of work and and raising family um to date. But I am I'm excited because um I would I think she
brings a lot to the table. So I would I would support her strongly. Um those would probably be my top my top two. Um Mr. Mr. Nam um I would love to see as
an associate if we're we're not really talking about associates yet but um um he would definitely be on my list. I know we can't we're certainly not going to be making motions without um
Andy. >> So um it sounds like we're all in agreement that Mr. Henry should be reappointed to a full position. So we're basically t we have two positions for full members and it sounds like it's um
and Mr. Nom sort of indicated that he wanted to be an associate. So um and uh Miss Morton said that she would be willing to be either. Um so it sounds
like there's either the the other sitting member, Mr. Price or a new member um Miss Morton. I think we're both we we're all impressed by Miss Morton, but she could conceivably be be an associate to start and we could keep Mr. Price on
with his experience. Um or >> you mean Mr. White? >> It does mean Mr. White. >> Mr. White. Yes. >> Did I say who's >> I heard Price. I heard Price. >> Not Price. White. Mr. white is the the
other one that we all that that we all mentioned basically or four of us mentioned. Um and so I I guess the question is do we do we vote to keep the current member on as as a full member or do we bring in Ms. Morton who was
impressive to be a full member and ask uh Mr. White if he would want to be an associate member or or what? Jennifer. >> Um, yeah. I would also I I'm torn between
Mr. White and Ms. Morton, but I also think and this is the I think Miss Morton is very qualified and she we have no women on the planning board now. And I think >> ZBA ZBA, >> no, but I'm just saying there's no women
on the planning board and we could have no women on the ZBA either. So, I might um feel, you know, more comfortable with that second full-time slot going to Miss
Ford. >> I'll I'll add that I I appreciated the brevity of her answers. Um, some people can say the same thing several times and I think she
expressed what she needed to. Um last last round we appointed so three years ago we appointed two brand new members to the committee or to the ZBA um as full members
and I'm I'm very comfortable um reappointing Mr. Henry. I think I would be um well for the reason Jennifer just stated but but probably perhaps less so with Mr.
Mr. White. One of my concerns, and I didn't really want to get into the concerns area, but um I I am concerned that um his presence in Amoris is is not
known. And I think he gave he gave an address of North Carolina on his calf, which kind of surprised me. Um, I would have thought he would at least put an Amoris address down when he's applying
for a position in a town on a town board. Um, so that would make it really tough for me to especially especially as he's looking for jobs. I I I wouldn't expect anyone
to try to maintain a board position and and be working elsewhere. Um I I I don't know either of them. Well, um but um
it uh you know is it is so last year we did bring in new two new people who didn't have experience and we didn't just make them associates, we made them full members. >> Right. >> Sorry. >> That was Mr. Hen that was Mr. Henry and Mr. White. I
>> see Mandy has her hand up. So, >> yeah, Mandy, >> I just have to push back on on a comment about concerns about appointing someone who's looking for a job or working full-time. I mean, we have counselors
that work full-time. We have planning board members. We have ZBA members that are working full-time that are hunting for jobs. and to to imply that you can't do both, which is what I heard just said, um I think puts a thumb on only
retirees. Um and that is not how we create diversity on our boards. It's not how we represent the town on our boards. It's not how we should be thinking about people's time. Every single one of these
candidates said they had the time to devote to this and to just assume that that answer was untrue because they're in potentially looking for jobs. I I I just have to push back on that and say I I can't agree with that and I can't let
that that statement sort of stand without that push back. Um >> thank you. >> I Well, I'm still speaking. Um, I I would support Philip White over Sarah Morton. Um, I don't necessarily have
anything negative to say about Sarah, but um, I think the ZBA is one where when we appoint associates, um, that it's the associates that is the good spot for someone to learn. Um
and and many times and I know this statement goes back and forth depending on who wants what person. I will absolutely recognize that every committee member here uses this
statement differently. But but a lot of times we do look to experience um and and that's always an issue when there aren't associate members more um in terms of how to weigh that experience versus new
new new people I would say. Um but we have associates where where we can give people who haven't served on it an entry a soft entry I would say into
the quasi judicial nature of the ZBA um while still getting them the experience for the next year um to move into a full the next year. Um, so I I would support Philillip
over Sarah for the second position. >> Thank you. And I I will retract my statement. Um, it really has to deal it it really deals with
um what I perceive as not having a presence in the town. And that's that's where I'm you know and if I were if I were looking for a job there may not be jobs of that nature in Ammerst as we know we are not a major hub of
employment beyond the university and the college. So I I I I acknowledge that somebody needs to get on with their life. That's that was the basis for it. Jennifer. >> Yeah. I was going to say that's what I
heard you saying is he's actively looking for a job and it's I think what Pam was thinking is there's a probably a better chance than not that the job won't be in Amoris. Now maybe it'll be remote and he would still be here but I think that that was your concern. I mean,
>> many people that just interviewed have full-time jobs. So, we know you can be on the board on the ZBA or the council or anything and be um fully employed, but that I I also I know we didn't have a way to ask it, but I I was concerned
about the same thing that and I Andy, I don't know if you were more involved in the cabs, but can can you have a calf where you don't put Amoris as your address, >> Andy? I I don't I don't know the answer to
that. I I do know he put Wilmington down instead of Amoris and so that was kind of interesting. >> Can we ask Athena? I didn't know if that was if it's a actual count, you know, a town. >> Oh, >> it's in our bylaws or
>> we're looking at your hand to answer that question or did you want me to speak to it? I was going to try and answer it, but I'm I'm I'm trying to find the thing. Um somewhere in the charter, I believe, and I'm scanning quickly. Um
>> yeah, the charter has a residency requirement unless the council waves the requirement. >> Right. So, if he put not Ammerst on the calf, we would have to confirm whether he's an actual resident of Ammerst or not. And
if not, um, we would have the the count the recommendation would have to in for Phillip would have to include a a recommendation that the council wave the residency requirement. Um, I'm trying to find the section of
the charter, but it is a charter thing. >> Thank you. Thank you, Athena. I'm actually going back to see if I can find the calves. Um, Andy, you have your hand up. >> I looked at the calf today and it it
just it said Wilmington and I was like that that's strange. But then it seemed like his statement, you know, talked about his, you know, being in town now. So, I don't know if that means he's a student, but his he's thinking that his, you know, his home
residence, is he a student currently? I >> think he just graduated. >> He he may have been. Yeah. So he just graduated. So he might have been my my home address has been Wilmington. But I've been a student here. So I But is he
staying here? Is he staying is he going back to Wilmington? I think that might be something that to ask him because that would be important to know. Um it's just you know it it would be hard to if he is living here
and again it's he he served a term he understands what the deal is with the CBA and he could do the job. Um so it's hard to say uh no we don't want you to serve a second term other than if it's this
actual technicality that he we can't surmount. Um, if he's not living here, then I agree that's probably that that's we're not we're not accepting applications from people in Hadley or New York City. Um, but it does seem like we could, you
know, we have four good candidates here and we could, you know, keep the two on the the full members that we have and put the other two as associates to to be the bench that's going to be coming onto the board. and it would be a very strong
uh pool. Um I don't know if we wanted to say Miss Morton could be a full member and ask him if he wants to be an associate member. I don't know how that would be perceived by somebody who's been a full member. I don't know. But
in any case, we could provisionally approve him and say pending confirmation of living in Ammerst or we could say we don't know if he lives in Ammerst. And that seems like kind of a funny way to dispose of somebody.
>> Mandy and then Jennifer. >> Yeah, I I just wanted to give the reference. It's in a weird spot, which is why it's it takes me a while. It's actually in the town manager's powers of appointments under appointments of multi-member bodies that members of all appointed multiple member bodies shall be residents of the town at the time of
appointment and throughout the term of appointment unless otherwise approved by the town council and multiple member body definition in the charter does include the ZBA. So just because it's in the article 3 executive section to say that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to
the ZBA which I don't know why we put it there and not under the the section that talks about multiple member bodies. Andy and I could probably talk about that for ages but um um it is in the charter that through at the time of appointment and throughout but the council can wave
that. Um but I I do agree with that part. um if if he's not a resident, um I feel like the ZBA there there's reasons the council in the past has appointed non-residents to multiple member bodies or confirmed non-residents. Um
particularly when they live in a neighboring town and their expertise is something we haven't been able to find on a body that requires a certain level of expertise. Um I think agricultural commission has been one of them. Um sometimes water supply protection or in some sense some of these building committees where you're looking for
someone from the the particular uh department that is the building applies to and that person doesn't happen to live in town. Uh this doesn't seem to be the case and I I do agree that I think our ZBA absolutely should contain
residents of our town not um not non-residents. Um, so that would be an important factor in me changing who my second person would be. I would still say, um, my second person, if if Philip is not deemed a resident, um, I would
support Evan over Sarah. Um, so it's where I stand. >> Jennifer. >> Yeah. And I was um going to say that I would support Philip White if he's a resident. So, and if my choice if he is
not a resident um would be for Sarah Morton. So, if if we're doing like a straw pole tally. >> Yeah. Which we kind of are. So, um Alicia's not back yet and we obviously are not able to Well, it would be rude
to make motions without her. Um, I'd like to talk a little bit I think now about um >> Alicia Council Walker has rejoined. >> Oh, she has. Okay. Haven't seen her. Thank you. Thank you.
Any sign of her? >> Are you looking for me? Sorry. >> Yes, I am. >> Yes. Sorry. No, I'm here. I never left. I just am still sitting outside waiting for the bus, but I'm listening. Okay. >> Okay. You are multitasking. Yeah.
>> So, we um we we have strong we have strong support for Eve Henry um as as um recommendation for reappointment. Um, we are we are pretty evenly divided
between supporting uh Sarah Morton um and and or Philip White as uh choice number two of full membership. I did I don't know if you heard the conversation
about um living in Ammerst. So, we don't uh and I I mean I guess could I email him right now? Do I have the authority to email him quickly and say you gave Wilmington as your as your
residence? Do you live in Ammerston? Will you be here for the for the three-year term? >> Do we have a number you could text him? >> No, >> I guess not. So, I mean, I would say if if that's if if Phillip is the
preference if he's a resident, that that's how we vote um and confirm before Monday whether he is or not. Um but that the vote be conditioned upon confirming his residency if that is the preference of the committee. Um it seems it's not
if if the preference of the committee is Sarah um that conditioning wouldn't be necessary. >> I mean I wonder if if we want to get the vote for Everald over with. Um >> maybe talk about associates and and see
where that lands and see what then where people might stand on the second full. >> Great. I I would I think we can resolve Emerald Henry. Um I make a motion that he be recommended for appointment to a
full member term beginning July 1, 2026 ending July June 30, 2029. >> Second. >> Alicia, can you hear us? >> Yes. I'll call you first so you can focus on
what you're doing. >> Thank you. Yes. >> Okay. Um Mandy, >> hi. >> Andy, >> yes. >> Jennifer, >> yes. >> You already voted >> and Pam is a yes. So, we have we have
five yes. Uh zero nos. We are going to recommend to reappoint Henry. um working backwards. I mean, I I would I would like to get Sarah Morton into the cycle. Um I this this
council, this committee and this council have also um gone back and forth on reappointing folks who have finished one term and may not get reappointed for a second. We've we've done that several
times. So, I'm not locked into um automatic reappoint as as has proven in the past. Um I guess I could I could support Philip White. Um
I would rather see Sarah Morton. That's that's sort of the long and the short of it. Um, Jennifer, >> um, I I could support Sarah Morton. Um, I'm a little So, I mean, I know we haven't discussed the process, but if we
were to, if Philip White were to be appointed for and then between now and Monday, we find out he does not have an address in Ammerst. I don't want to I I don't think it's a good idea to go to the council and just have this. I I I
think we need to go with we need to have someone else as a third if you know we need to have another full-time second position appointed if Philip White can't do it. So, if it's easier,
cleaner to just vote for Sarah Morton and that be a clean second vote, I could vote for her, too, in as the second full-time. I don't know if I'm expressing myself well. I I don't want to go to the council saying we had voted for two, one
that turns out doesn't live here, and then kind of have that free-for-all. So, if it's cleaner just to vote for Sarah in the second position, Sarah Morton, I could do that. >> Andy, >> I was going to suggest that we could
vote for Mr. white for the second full position and then say that if he is unable to fulfill his duties by not living in Amoris then Sarah Morton would be the one that would
be promoted for full um and otherwise he would be an associate. I really wish we could find out now whether he lives in Ammers >> Andy. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, so I I think that's, you know,
that would be my preference. Obviously, um, I I could support a motion that is to appoint to recommend appointing Philip as the second three-year term. Um, pending confirmation of his residency. Um, I I'm just thinking about
how this motion would be worded and include in that motion if residency is unconfirmed, the committee recommends appointing Sarah Morton to a three-year term. Um, you know, something like that. Um,
and if not, you know, and if you know, and then we could also potentially vote Sarah as I can I can I could support that motion even though she's not my third choice for a of the full term. Um, because it it's sort of clean in a
sense. Um, but I I would then say include her in the associate motion vote, too. Um, okay. And then Pam, you and Athena can work on confirming residency and we can on Monday figure out what that motion looks like before
we bring it up when we get to it on Monday evening. Um sort of thing. Uh that that sort of how I can envision this happening in a way that is doesn't I agree with Jennifer doesn't end up at the council of oh we picked one and
they're not a resident and we do not recommend appointing a non-resident. Um, so now we have no recommendation. I I don't think that's wise at all. So, um, you know, it it's clear to me that the Sarah is at at at worst the third choice
of the majority of the the committee, if not the second choice of a potential majority. So, um, I would not, um, vote no on a motion that looked like that. Um, >> okay. Do you want to do you want to take a stab at that motion then? >> Sure, I can take a stab at that motion.
got most of it. >> Um, so I guess I'll move to recommend uh the town council appoint Philip White to uh the ZBA as a full member
beginning for a term beginning July 1, 2026 and ending June 30, 2029 pending confirmation that he is a resident of Ammerst. Um,
and if he is not a resident of Ammerst, recommend the town council appoint Sarah Morton as a full member of the ZBA for term beginning July 1, 2026 and ending
June 30, 2029. >> Uh, Chair Rooney, before you seek a second on that motion, may I may I offer a point of information? >> Yes. I just spoke with Philip White on the phone to see if we could answer that question while you're deliberating so
that we don't have a a funny motion to deal with at the council and he is he just told me that he is not currently a resident. He is looking to reestablish residency in Ammerst at the moment. >> He's not currently a member I mean a res but he's been
>> a res. He's not currently a resident. He is looking to come back to Ammerst. He's trying to come back to Ammerst. So he served he served even though he wasn't a resident. >> I didn't ask him that question. I asked him if he was currently a resident and he said no. He's currently in Wilmington
and he's looking to come back to town. >> I withdraw my motion or it'll fail for a second. >> Okay. >> I'll leave someone else to make the >> Wow. Okay. >> Motion. Well, why don't we make why
don't I'll move that we appoint um um Miss Morton what's her first name? Sarah Sarah pray term blah blah blah as a full member and
um yeah I think that's cleaner >> second >> let's go around uh let's see >> yes >> Jennifer >> yes >> Mandy
>> no >> Alicia >> yes and Pam is a yes. So that is four yes, one no. >> Um for the report, Pam, >> since I'm a no, ju just report that I
preferred another candidate as a full member, but I have nothing particularly >> negative. >> Okay. >> Regarding Sarah, but I I would have just preferred a different person. That's it. >> Yep. Yep. Okay, good. Thank you.
Appreciate that. Um, yeah, it was a it was a long um memo last time. Okay. Um, I think that's that's clean. That settles um that settles some of this. Let's talk about associate
members. Jennifer, if that's what you were going to talk about. >> Yeah. I just have a question in terms of Mr. White. Can he be considered for an associate or >> Jennifer? I mean, Mandy. So, if he's not a resident now, um we could consider him for an associate. We just have to also
recommend that the town council wave the residency requirement. >> So, yeah, >> go ahead, Jennifer. >> So, if he's not a resident, would he want to still want to be on the ZBA? That would be my question.
>> It sounds like he wants to come back. So, um it's almost like can can we appoint him pending pending residency? >> We have a full pool of candidates that that we all said were very strong. Um
>> I I personally would have a little difficulty with that. I hope he comes back. I hope he reapplies. Jennifer, I mean Mandy, sorry. Um, assuming we're moving on to associates, um, >> yes,
>> I clearly I wish that Philip White was a resident. Um, but I do truly believe that our ZBA members should be residents, that unless we're in dire straits, there's no need to wave the requirement for residency. Um, so I would encourage Philip to apply again if
he does reestablish residency. Um but um given that he is not a resident I I can't support him for associate. So I I can only support three people for associate. Blair uh Nam Evan Naymith and
Francisco Bau. Um and I would be happy to support those three or associate membership to the ZBA. >> Thank you. Anyone else? Jennifer. >> Yes. And I could support um as the
associates Mr. Bau. Oh, I had Mr. White. No, but >> Mr. Nom and Miss Greenbound. >> Um Alicia, do you you want to weigh in? Um yes I think
for the associate members sorry can I get clarity are reappointing three or four um we let's talk about that we we don't have to appoint four um
the the past chair said one is too few is good but last year we had somebody that never showed up so we had essentially just one associate it. Um, so two is really good, three is good, four may be too many.
>> And it it can be up to four. There can be no more than four. >> Up to four. Yeah. Up to four. Yeah. >> And just the the idea between about having fewer than four is that they they actually then get some experience that prepares them to be members. If you have
four get one one thing or so, >> right? It sounded like two active ones would be would be good or possibly three. >> Yes. >> Does that answer the question? >> Yes, that's helpful because I was under
the assumption that we had to pick four um or that we were going to, not that we had to. Um, okay. So, I think, um, I just need a couple of seconds.
>> Okay. Um, Mandy, you had your hand up just a minute ago. >> Oh, you already you already you already gave you already gave your list. Uh, Andy, >> um, I've, you know, already said that I I like Nom and so I would strongly
support him. Um I think uh Naymith and Bau both bring s c different levels but different types of legal training and a respect for that sort of I think that would help them with the sort of quasi judicial role and I think it would be a
good way for them to get their feet wet and uh you know find out what this is actually about. So I think I could support both of them. >> So Mr. Boto and and uh Evan Naymith. >> Yes.
>> Okay. >> Wait. And didn't you say Mr. Nam also? >> Yes. >> Yes. Yeah. I was just confirming the second the second names. >> Um I would I I would like to see Mr. Nam on
the associate list. Mr. Bato was also very clear that he uh was interested in an associate position to learn the ropes and um I think he would bring um well a lot of a lot of his expertise in in
managing the firm and and maintaining collaboration with the within an organization. I think that's one of the criteria is is collaboration and uh collegiality I think is one of the criteria. Um so I would support those
two. Um Miss Greenbomb has served really well. She knows the ropes and I would I would support associate position for her as well. Councelor Walker. Oh, thank you. So, uh, for the associate
position, I think my first choice would be Mr. Nom. Um, I would also support Mr. Boto in an associate role. Um, I'm wondering if you
can speak more to the three versus four because my thought would be uh for the third spot. Um, I think I hear and agree with everything that everyone has shared about the other two candidates. Um, and
wondering if we can appoint all four to associate. Um, I think it would be nice to sort of have that balance and contrast of a member who is uh very informed um about what has happened historically and who has been very involved and I think Miss
Greenbomb uh seems like an important piece to the puzzle there. I also think it would be nice um to have and support new voices and having Mr. Naymith in an associate role uh would sort of be a foot in the door to prepare him for further service if that is what he
chooses to do afterwards. Um, so I would support those two for a fourth, but I think my the the top two that I know for certain I would like to support is Mr. Nom and Mr. Boto for the associate uh
positions. >> Thank you. So I'm seeing I'm seeing um clear clear consensus um on Mr. Nam and Mr. Boto in terms of all five of us agreeing to those to those two folks.
Um, and I wonder if it would make sense just um looking forward to the council vote uh if we if we give our votes for each of these individuals u and and people then can make their own
choice. Um, if there are split votes, that's typically when folks in the council step in and say, "Oh, yeah, let's talk about this person, Mandy." So, I could support a motion that had
two of the names on it and then a report that um put the pros and cons about each of the other two members as indicated at this meeting. Uh other two applicants for a potential third position. Um I will say I I cannot support Miss
Greenbomb. Um she is currently a plaintiff in a lawsuit against the town um on a matter that if the application had been filed would have been in front of the ZBA. And the biggest thing in my mind about ZBA being a quasi judicial
body is that you have to have impartiality and integrity and you have to stay neutral even when cases are emotional and political. That's what um the current chair of the ZBA wrote in his selection guidance. um and filing a lawsuit against the town on a matter
that didn't even have an application yet, but might have come with an application to the ZBA um to me shows in some sense an inability to remain impartial on projects that are in the
development stage um and that may come in front of the body. And so I think personally that that disqualifies Miss Greenbomb from serving on the ZBA at all in my mind. So I cannot support her candidacy at all. Um and if she is if if
she is mentioned as a possibility in a report, I I would like that mentioned in the report. Um but I can support a motion for the other two and then just leave the other two as listed as what any vote might have been on on on the
committee. Um, >> okay. So, I will I will then take a stab at this and I will say um >> Oh, wait. I have my hand up. I think it >> Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Um, >> so I would feel more comfortable if with
are we going to recommend four associate positions or three? But whatever we do, if we could vote on each one individually, >> each candidate. >> Yeah. rather than as a package because I think we all have different people and the only thing I would say about Miss
Greenbound is and that particular situation is I mean people recuse themselves all the time. So if if that application had gone before the ZBA she would have
recused herself. She would not have been um you know one of the associates to be called for that application. And I don't think that, you know, everyone is a resident of the town whether you're on a multiple member body or not. And everyone has a right
to, you know, use the law. So, you know, I don't I don't think that she should be that any resident should be denied that right. But again, I think that to say yes, she couldn't be impartial in that case and so she would never serve on the
ZBA reviewing that proposal. Thank you. Uh, Mandy. >> Yeah, I I guess my point is that if a a member of the ZBA must remain impartial for any application that it comes to it and a lawsuit, a willingness to file a
law, and I'm not saying she doesn't have the right to, al although um it's interesting she spoke about only a butters have a say and she's not actually an abutter to that potential project. Um, it's my understanding. So, um, curios curiosity, but my my point
was that, um, it shows a willingness to pre-judge before anything comes projects just based on presentations that are not including in anything in an application. And when you're dealing with a quasi judicial body, you really need to be certain that every member for any
project is not prejudging the application at all. Um, even if they haven't made any public statements about it. and and and this the the suit she's involved in makes me question that ability to remain impartial even when
not making public statements about items that are in front of the body. Um that it's that imp appearance of impartiality and I I just I'm not sure it's there anymore. Um which is why I can't support her. >> Okay. And I will make sure that I'll run
that text by you to make sure I have captured what you are intending. So, I'm going to make a motion uh to uh recommend to town council that Blair Nam be appointed as an associate member of
the ZBA for a term beginning July 1, 2026 and ending June 30, 2027. Is there a second? >> Second. >> I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? I'm in. >> It's It's the motion. It was the motion
to recommend Blair Nom as an associate member. I'm just making my notes here for for an associate term beginning D ending D. So, it's a one-year term. Um, uh, Andy, this
is a vote. Andy, >> uh, Alicia, >> yes. >> Jennifer, >> yes. Um, councelor Hanni >> I >> and Pam Rooney is an I. So that is a
five yes zero no recommendation for Blair Nam. The second one that seemed a clear decision is uh Francisco Boto and so I will make a similar motion
um to recommend to town council that Mr. Francisco Boto be uh appointed for a an associate term. I'll use the right words for a term ending beginning July 1, 2026 and ending
June 30, 2027. Is there a second? >> Second. >> We'll go around the room. Mandy, >> I >> uh Andy, >> yes. Councelor Walker, >> yes.
>> Jennifer, >> yes. >> And Pam is a yes. That's five yes, zero no to recommend Francisco Boto as an associate. We come to our
third third and I'm looking for suggestions on how to um how to phrase a a motion. I I think the prop proposal was to make a motion for each of the other two potentially and see where the vote is
and then it is my job I guess as president to figure out what that looks like on a motion sheet as we get there depending on what th those are. >> Okay. All right. So, we'll we'll proceed. So, there is a motion to recommend to town council that um
>> I'm sorry instead of a motion and then we can decide what to do with it. >> Yeah, we we'll vote. We'll vote. We may or you know, so it could be a split vote. >> We can confirm with a motion, but if it if it ends up three to two, do
we really want to go put that forward or do we want to just say stop at two? You know what I mean? I would say that's a secondary choice. You know, the the committee could make a recommendation to stop it, too. Even though there are one or two other candidates that have a
potential majority of the committee to be appointed as an associate member, that's that's that's a recommendation the committee could make. Um the committee could make any recommendation really. Um, >> yeah. I'm I guess I'm just trying to
We've got We've got four or five nothing recommendations right now and and two associate members is a good >> point of order there. There were three uh unanimous recommendations. One was not unanimous
>> was four to one. I'm sorry. Um, so if we do a straw vote and we find out that it's 3:2 or 2:3 for Naymith and for um, Hilda, do we what do we then we can
decide what to do with that information rather than just say this is a motion and it's 3 to2 and then you know I if we do a stro and then we could ratify it or we can decide that we want to stop it too, Right,
>> Mandy. >> So the committee can stop at two. That doesn't stop the council from considering any of the applicants because there are still two openings to associate members. >> Okay. Well, maybe it doesn't matter, >> right? You know, so so in that sense, we can recommend only two. We can make a recommendation that says we recommend
stopping at two if that's what you want or stopping at three. you know, >> I don't want to say the vote. I just >> as long as there's an opening and candidates have been interviewed, any counselor can make a motion to appoint that person to the opening. Um, so,
>> okay, I whatever you want to do a motion. >> So, I'm Go ahead. I'm I'm thinking of of the two remaining candidates that we were that we're talking about. Um, a point was made and and I understand Mandy, you would not be able to support
that, but the point was made that um, our the variation, the diversity on on this board. Um, we have nobody from district one. I actually haven't looked at I guess we
have the the districts where people are from. Um, it hasn't played much of a role in this conversation. uh for whatever reason, but part of me just says this is somebody
Hilda Greenbomb is somebody with deep experience and um you know always brings something to the table in terms of of um the discussion
and I guess I I could I certainly could support her as the third associate member. She's she served this past round as as the sole associate member. Andy,
>> yeah, I I have similar concerns about um being a plaintiff in a lawsuit that cut off discussion of um low-income housing before it even got to the point of being a real proposal. Um the other area is is
that um you know there are going to be there's whether there's any perception of a conflict of interest if new rental housing is proposed and uh the Green Bond family is a big rental property you
know operator in town and would would would you know I am not I I like Hilda and I think she knows a lot but I I just think there's two areas where people could easily say that that that
that there's not um impartiality there um or that at least there's the appearance or the possibility of a lack of impartiality and uh you know she's she's had an opportunity to serve in many ways. I I I just can't support her.
>> Jennifer. >> Yeah. I just wanted to say um Hilda served on many boards and committees and chaired them and I've have not heard the conflict of interest raised because of the business or families in just leave it at that.
So um we have one two three four one two three four clear decisions. Um, does somebody want to make a motion? We can we can have a vote. It would it
would I guess codify what we're thinking. Uh, in terms of the report to the council, uh, I frankly think we would be okay with two members, two associate members. I don't have any
reason to think that they would not show up and be available uh in that role. Mandy, I'll make a motion um to recommend um that the town council appoint Evan
Naymith as an associate member to the zoning board of appeals for a term beginning July 1, 2026 and ending June 30, 2027. >> Is there a second? I think that was Andy. Couldn't hear him, but I saw his lips move. Um, we'll
take a vote. Um, Andy, since you're now on speaker, >> yes. >> Alicia, Councelor Walker, sorry. >> Yes. >> Um, Mandy Johann, >> I
>> Jennifer to I think I heard no. >> No, I'm not unmuted. Uh, no. Okay. And Pam Rooney is a no. So, we can put that forward. Um, we're going to have the same conversation at
council. Do you need three members? Do you need four members as associates or do we cut off? Um, Jennifer, >> uh, Councelor Walker, I think. Oh, I was just going to ask, are we voting on Miss Greenbound or not?
>> Have we haven't yet? Oh, okay. >> Councelor Walker. >> Uh, yes. Well, I was going to make a motion to appoint Hilda Greenbomb as an associate member to the ZBA. >> Okay. >> Um, just point of order. It's not a motion to appoint. It's a motion to recommend.
>> To recommend. >> Thank you. >> Nothing to Okay. >> Second. >> Okay. Is there a second? >> Sorry. Second. >> Okay. Um, we'll take a vote. We've got um uh Councelor Walker.
>> Yes. >> Mandy Johanni, >> no. >> Andy Churchill, >> no. >> Jennifer Tub, >> yes. >> And Pam Rooney is a yes. So, we have two
identical votes, three yes, two nos for two different candidates. I will write that as part of the report. And um again, is there any recommendation that we stop at two?
>> I'm happy to stop at two. >> I am too, >> Mandy. So, I I worry about stopping with two. We had two last year and what we ended up with was some comments from the planning
department I think or the board chair that that it was it was tough with with because one of those two didn't really participate. So I I am not implying in any way that the two that received unanimous recommendations will end up that way that that one of them will end
up in the same situation we were. Um, but you know, I I obviously recognize that stopping at two given these votes is the logical thing to do. I would just mention that I don't want to put the planning department and the ZBA in the same
situation it was in this year when there are other candidates, even if I don't agree with one of them, that that have received at least contested but positive recommendations from there. But I I would leave it up to Pam for you to put it, you know, figure out a way to write
that in a committee report. Um, but I do I would say I do agree that four might be too much. That I think we've learned from the past that when we have four, there are definite preferences and some are appointed and never have any opportunity
to learn. Um, >> Exactly. So, so I'm I'm actually looking at you Mandy. Um if uh if we we recommend that council pick a third associate member and it would be up to
the council to essentially have a vote hold a vote on the two candidates and that may be one way to structure it and just let let the the full council work that through. I mean just just as we did last time the
council voted Is that is that something you could fit into your agenda? >> Uh the agenda has the ZBAS on it. Um and it was never expected to be fully on consent. I've actually asked Athena when
she she's trying to post the agenda now um so that we don't miss the posting deadline to put the three unanimous ones on consent, but but I never planned on ZBA being fully on consent anyway. Um, and Pam, you and I could talk this weekend about how to structure that if if that is I I would be fine
recommending that we think three is the best the optimal associate number of associate members. I would be fine with a motion if that's a motion that was made. >> Um, and and I would find a way to structure that conversation appropriately. Um, >> great.
>> Okay. Sounds like a decision, Jennifer. And then we're gonna wrap this up. >> Yeah. I would rather see that we vote just to recommend two. Um otherwise I think we're going to have a council discussion, you know, which is we're going to be
talking about person. I mean, I just I think it's cleaner. I think that I think I feel I you know, I know anything could happen, but comfortable that the two that got the I think unanimous near unanimous votes to be alternates would
serve if called. and that with two then each should have an opportunity to participate and get you know the training um and experience to step up to be full members. But I would hate to see us having another conversation about
individual candidates at the next council meeting. So, I would maybe I should just make a motion um to that we vote to just recommend two candidates and that there be two alternates that we we've already voted
on the candidates, but that we vote to only >> I don't know if we have to vote or we can just agree that we're only going to put forth two alternates. So I think the motion would sound something like maybe in light of the support on CRC, CRC
recommends the council appoint two associate members, appoint only two associate members. >> Yeah. >> Is there a second to that? >> Second. >> Okay, we'll take a vote. We'll see how
this falls. Um, Jennifer, >> yes. >> Uh, Councelor Walker, >> yes. >> Andy Churchill, >> yes. >> Mandy Johannne, >> I'm going to vote no for the sake of not
having >> it unanimous. >> I'm still not sure where I stand on it. Um, so I'm no. >> Okay. And and Pam is a yes. So that will be um it'll be a split vote obviously. It'll
be not a unanimous vote on um recommending two associate members for the term. >> Not unanimous, but given that the vote passed, I believe the motion sheet will and that the motion sheet and the agenda should only list the two full recommend
recommendations and the two associate recommendations, the two unanimous associate recommendations. Um, we have we have we have the the two. >> So, so what I'm saying because because Athena, I think, is listening and and we got to get this thing posted that that
the agenda has to list names and it should list Emerald and Sarah for three-year terms and >> yes, >> Blair and Francisco for one-year terms given the vote about two members only. um and where that stood and that that's
how it's written in your report. >> Yes. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Athena, for listening, catching all that. Okay. >> Staying late. >> And for staying late. Yes. So, I really
apologize. It's now almost 4. No problem. >> Um there are no >> no reflection on your chairing. It's just there's a lot of questions, a lot of candidates. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. We we'll talk about that again. I think hopefully next year. Um
meeting minutes? None. Next agenda preview. We still have clean energy bylaw which we have on the se on the excuse me the 15th of July. Is that our next meeting? No, excuse me. The 17th of June is the next joint planning board
and CRC meeting on clean energy. and we have not talked about design standards to any degree and that really needs to come up again sometime soon. Um, that's it for announcements. Nothing
anticipated within 48 hours and I'm going to move that we adjourn this meeting and in appreciation for everybody's time. Thank you. >> Second. >> Let's go around. Andy, >> yes. Mandy, >> hi. >> Councelor Walker,
>> yes. >> Jennifer Tab, >> yes. >> And Pam Rooney is a yes. Thank you everybody. Okay, thank you. >> Bye. Thanks, Athena. >> Thank you. Bye.