Good evening everybody. Uh I'm Andre Gada, the chair of the conservation the Amoris Conservation Commission. Um today is uh the 11th of March uh 2026 and we're holding our uh first meeting
of the of the month. Um, present here is are all commissioners except for who missing again? I'm sorry. >> Uh, Tina Tina Smith >> and um Aaron Jacques uh for the town and
um Dave is out uh today. Um starting with our uh chair's report um as of uh March uh
9th um the uh draft status has been upped from mild to significant drought. Um today uh we will not be uh holding any hearings. Uh we'll be having a
discussion of the uh conservation land management policies and regulations. Um trying to work our way through uh through everything that we have there. Um I think we were up to page is it 14 before? Um and I'm hoping
that we can make it through uh at least through the uh the beaver um uh regs. Um, we have a good group of folks here with uh with excellent um suggestions
here. Um, let's see. Uh, I did want to uh discuss uh come back to uh ask a couple questions on Gulp Pond um on the dam breach and the emergency uh when it comes down to
uh the uh beaver issues. Um, and I guess uh we weren't uh I had asked for the uh mowing plan for the town.
Erin, do you know anything about the status of that? >> Yes. Um, so I drafted it, Dave um reviewed it and um edited and then also Brad or uh uh Brad Bordawick, our um
>> land manager reviewed it and he um provided some edits. So I um integrated all of the proposed changes and came up with sort of a semi-final version which I sent to Dave yesterday and I'm just waiting for the green light from him to share it with you. Um, but it's
otherwise um in it's getting to the point where we'll be ready to share it with you. I suspect before the next meeting we'll have it ready to share. >> Right. Well, that's that'll be good. Um Sarah, you have a question? >> Yeah. Um Erin, when we look at the
compiled thing, I think it would also be help to have a red line versus your original. I'd like to see what your draft look like, please. I I would second that. Um okay. So, uh we'll we're waiting then
for I just wanted to make sure that we're keeping track of some of the things that uh that we're waiting for. One of them is that um uh is the uh mowing mowing plan. Uh
another which we had begun to discuss uh was a um a plan for uh beaver dams and uh uh breaching and so on that I had mentioned in our last uh meeting that Dave said he
would be getting at some point. And uh you know I I guess I wanted to uh bring some bring up a few uh items here. One of them um being you know how much I by a show of hands
how much of you uh has had training for um for the conservation commission duties that we have Bruce and Carol. Okay. That's not many of us.
Um what I've found is uh Dave had sent me some uh sites for regulations including the uh wetlands protection act itself and um I found that there are funds that we can be using
um which is uh essentially it's the wetlands filing uh funds or the fee from all the fees that uh people who file Um we should have that at our disposal.
Um and just the fact the very fact that um you know I put my hand up but not as not because I have been trained. We only have two people who've been trained here. I started 5 years ago I think something like that maybe four
but it's a long time to be on um without any training and I'm here as the uh as the chairperson um so I would like to uh find a way that we can get uh that we
can access those uh those fees. Um, and unfortunately Dave's not here to ask because I uh that's that was my plan is to ask uh a few of these questions. For example, we should be
able to use some of these monies for training. We should be able to use them for manuals. Carol, you have a manual that was loan to you. I asked Aaron how many manuals the town has. It's two.
We should each have a manual to uh to guide us through this because some of the stuff that you've said, Carol, was you were right on and you had all the information in front of you. Um and uh some pamphlets. I mean, I see
I've looked through and I see where there are other towns that uh put out pamphlets to their newest n newest uh um uh residents. when people buy a house, they give them these pamphlets about about wetlands and stuff.
You know, we're we're missing uh we're missing opportunities here. We're uh missing opportunities to ensure that folks are aware of not just that they're this and that and the other regulation, but why they're there. Um
we should be able to do these things. And um I uh I'm actually surprised that we you know that that here I am after 5 years finding this stuff out and it's not I'm not excited about that. Um but I
would like us all to uh get the uh get some training um so that we're not uh you know so that we we at least have a good idea what we're doing here. Um, and so, uh, maybe I can ask Aaron some of these
questions on the, uh, funding and so on, or, uh, if not, then we wait till, uh, till Dave comes back. But I, you know, these are some questions that need to be answered. Um, Carol, >> hi. I'm really glad you brought that up.
So, all right. I don't have much training. and I've taken one of the math courses. Um, and there and I'm signed up for two more, but I had since I don't I'm not a
professional engineer or whatever, I was really interested in getting some training. When I asked Dave on a couple of occasions, I was told there was no money in the budget for
this. Um, and I'm aware that there, you know, there are these uh fees acrewing and evidently they go into the general fund. >> They can't by law they're not supposed to. >> Well, that's what I was told. Um but so
first of all, MAC has a scholarship with um to fund new members of these commissions to take four courses I think it is for free.
Um, and if you look at their site, um, there's about, okay, there are five in all and, uh, maybe three are being offered this spring and a couple more in the fall,
but they they go through the whole cycle of five of them in a year. And then they have advanced courses. Um they generally cost about $65 a course. Um
and and if you're a member, it's somewhat less and and then there are yeah a number of publications. Um >> this this big book is not cheap. Um I kind of thought,
yeah, we should all have access to this information. >> Yeah. and this training. And >> thank you, Carol. I I appreciate that. Um, I think what we'll do is get some answers and find a way to uh to make
that uh money go to uh or some of that money come to uh to help us do our job. Um I yeah I think there's uh there's a lot that um that we don't know a lot that I
didn't know. Uh and um yeah it shouldn't it we should uh we should have access to knowledge. Um anyway, Erin, >> well, when you pulled everyone, I didn't raise my hand, but I I have done the um
the basic and advanced certification through MACC. Um and I've attended the conference numerous times and um throughout my career and also presented there. Um I just wanted to share that it is a really excellent opportunity. They
also do lunch and learns um if you they they send out opportunities for lunch and learns periodically which are kind of nice if you don't have the time to do one of the longer trainings where they do sort of like mini trainings. Um and then yeah the the basics are really
really great for new commissioners. So um supportive of of everybody um going if you're able to but just wanted to share that because I didn't raise my hand but I have been through them. >> All right. Thanks, Erin. Um, Sarah,
>> I just I think um Andre, you mentioned that I think you said that um by law that the money's not is not supposed to go into the general fund. Is that true? It's supposed to go to the conservation commission.
>> Um it's got its own um avenue. Uh if it's it but it cannot go into from what I was reading, it cannot go into the general fund. I can take we can take a look at that a little later on when we start our conversations. >> Okay. Yeah. Because if if that's the
case, we should probably talk to um the town manager or the you know, if if that's the case, we don't want to be not following the law in that regard. >> Absolutely. Yep. Well, I think there's some um it's it's to me it seems a
little more uh complicated um than the cut and dry can't do or can do thing. in in that um I think the money uh the funds go into go to the secretary uh of I think in in
the town and then they disperse it um accordingly and um so we're going to have to work that out but uh but there are funds available to us that we uh could be using. I don't know if it's all been spent. Um, but I've never heard of that.
>> Well, I can look if you've got something that you've if you if anybody ever has something that they found that they want a lawyer to look at, I'm happy to do it. >> Um, well, I have these uh I have a few of these
available here. Um, >> you can just send them to me offline. We don't have to talk about it anymore, but I'm happy to take a look at anything. >> Right. Well, I actually uh brought them I have them here to uh so that >> Oh, to talk about >> but but I I don't want to get too far
off of uh the other business that we've got to be doing here. So, um Bruce, >> a different topic. >> Yeah. >> Or yield to Carol. >> Carol. So, in talking to the um person at at
MAC, she I was told most town conservation commissions do make their funds available for the education of their members. Um, and that she knew that Ammerst didn't, but that
that was not the usual thing. >> And who who told you this? the administrator I talked to at Mac. >> Okay. >> A couple of times because I was interested in find you know why didn't
Ammerst provide these funds and and I think they should be provided. >> I think we should be educated. >> So I'll let me give a quick read here of chapter 40. This is uh MGL mass general
law chapter 40 section 8C. It says uh such commission talking about the conservation commission. Such commission shall conduct researches into its
um into its local land areas and shall seek to coordinate the activities of unofficial bodies organized for similar purposes and may advertise, prepare, print and distribute books, maps, charts, plant plans and pamphlets which
in its judgment deems necessary for work for its work. Among such plans may be a conservation and passive outdoor recreation plan which shall be as far as possible consistent with the town master plan and with any regional plans. Um
anyway, it uh essentially there are things that we uh that uh we could be doing um and haven't yet. So I just wanted to uh put that out there um just for now.
Bruce, >> unless Aaron has a further point on this topic. >> I was just going to say that um there I believe that section is referring to the open space and recreation plan. So I have been participating in that and um
giving periodic updates and it's been kind of a long time since I have. Um it is nearing completion. I several of the new members um may not have seen it yet, but um members who have been here longer may recall that I've done sort of like
periodic um sharing of the document for comments and um it's it's been probably a two-year process of drafting it. We're nearing completion of it and we haven't really given an update on it in quite a while. So, I
>> we'll need to do that soon. Um it's it's been uh a challenge to get it done from a a workload standpoint and staffing standpoint. So we're we are behind the scenes working on it. >> All right. Cool.
>> All right. Thank and thanks Erin. Um Bruce, go ahead. Reminder to all of you to attend the um culverts and flooding community workshop next Monday 6 o'clock town hall
second floor child care available for anyone five and over. Um and there'll be dinner and it's going to go from 6:00 to 8. We're going to sit stand around the maps after we get a presentation from the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission
who is the administrative agent for the grant the town got from the MVP uh award from the state and you all know what a culvert is. So come and help us identify the high priority culverts that should
get the money. Thank you. >> Thanks Bruce. And I think you've mentioned that the food they have is really good. Yes, it is. If the Shrews Shrewsbury example was any indication, so yes, I recommend it.
>> All right. Well, thanks, Carol. Your hand is still up. I don't know if you meant to have it up. Okay. Um, so, uh, we've been through the draft status. Um, and I think I've covered uh briefly
all the uh small items I was looking to uh speak about a little later. Um, is there anything that uh Aaron that you would like to put in for the director's report before we start our uh policy and
regulations uh draft? >> Um, so um I don't really have anything major to share. We're we're continuing on with the um Meepa permitting for for Puffer
Pond. Um Roose has has been spearheading um the Culvert project um information gathering which he already mentioned. Um there is in your packets in the um uh correspondence folder a um a request
which had been tabled for a request for certificate of compliance for UMass for uh for members who were not here. It was a um a enforcement order which required an after the fact notice of intent and they've requested a certificate of
compliance. We tabled it a couple months ago because of snow on the ground. Um, and I think it would be helpful if anybody who can come to the site visit um is able to there's a couple dates that the consultant had proposed um for that
sitewalk. So um I don't know if at some point in the meeting we can talk about that whenever you deem appropriate, Andre. Um but that is one thing that's sort of pending um for the next meeting to get out there and take a look at the work that was done and see how it looks.
Sounds good. Yeah, we can cover these at the end here with the monitoring and compliance. And >> Andre, I just need to check one thing. So, for anyone who's here and you are very sure that you are going to be able to come to this meeting next Monday,
please raise your hand. And if it's two people, because there's two of you who are going to come, you know, give me I need to send in the the number for the order of the food by tomorrow. Now, if you decide Sunday night, oh, I really should go to that and I didn't raise my hand. Come anyway, cuz they they order
extra. But it would be helpful to know who's coming. So, I see Carol and Aaron and myself. And so, if you change your mind, um, please try to come and come anyway because there will be extra food.
Thank you. Well, >> thanks. Okay. Um well, I think we're going to move into the uh land use management. Um is that where we are here on page 14 of the old one? Land use management is where we're starting.
>> I was at the bottom of page 14 with my edits, I believe. >> Okay. At uh we are at U at letter U. Um, I I think my last edit was on N, but we or actually I guess it
was O, so I think we did move down to the bottom of that section. >> Can you just tell me where to find it? I'm sorry. >> Yep. In the old uh version that we've that we've been working off of uh page
14 where it says land use management. Um, are you talking about on the in the packet? Sarah, >> yeah, I just I'm having difficulty locating it. I I found it last time, but >> do you are you in the packet right now?
>> Um, no, I was trying to find it on the I thought I found it on the website last time. So, if you just go to the conservation commission pa and I've got it up on the screen, too, if that's helpful, but if you just go to the conservation commission page, >> um, town of Ammerst, and scroll down on
the right hand column, there's a conservation commission packet um, >> link, you can click on that, and then when you click on that, there'll be a um, a list on your left hand side. So, you'll need to click on the 311 meeting. And when you open that, there'll be a
couple folders in there. One of them will be the um land use uh policy and regulation folder. So, click on that and then when you click on that, you might need to scroll back up to see the list of documents, but it's the document from the February 25th meeting, I believe, is
where we left off. And that's the one I have up right now. >> Okay. I don't know why I have such trouble with this. Did you have you were you able to find it? Um Carol Sarah? >> No. Is it in conservation land use
policy discussion? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And then and then they're just three document four. One, two, three, four. Oh >> yeah. Um so one of you just see like the version that is dated um February 25th,
2026. If you open that one, it should open to the document. >> There's a there's a What's that? >> I only see four documents. They're all last uploaded March 5th. >> Yep. So, if you look at the title of the document, it should have a date on the
title. Um, and so, >> sorry, I'm having such difficulty. >> There's um here, let me >> Okay, I I opened one. >> Let me show you. Um, this might actually help. >> Sorry.
>> No, no, no. This is good. Town of Ammeris Conservation. Click on conservation commission page. >> You scroll down, you'll see me uh where are we? Meeting packets right here. Uh just two down under meeting materials.
Um and then right here you'll see 311 in the list. conservation. Yeah. >> 311 conservation commission meeting. And then there's conservation land use policy discussion. So those are the documents I presume you're seeing. So um
>> they're just four, right? >> Yeah, there's four separate documents. So see this one here? Um it's 225 2026 down at the bottom. Um one of them is PDF and one of them is Word. So,
because for accessibility purposes, we have to have both um in case people don't have Word. >> Oh, I see. >> But if you click on that one, it'll open the Word document. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. Sorry about that. >> No problem. >> Well, you got it there. Um, everybody
else all set? >> I don't see any hands. Um, so yeah, I think that we finished up before uh at the beginning of land use and management. Um, so
>> page 15, I think I had a comment on here. That's why I'm so wanting to I think this is the section I have a comment on. >> Well, uh, yeah, please do. Um, your the land use management one.
Um, >> so we're going to go through letter by letter or was it did you have a comment before this? >> Um, >> all right. >> I have it in I sent it in an email to Aaron.
It's they're not huge >> comments, but one of them was the title of the um of the section, but I thought we'd almost gotten to it last time.
>> Do you want me to open it up and see if I can find the email? Would that make sense? >> I have the I just had the email open. >> Why don't we start? >> I have it right here. I have the email open. Um, but I can send it. Do you want
I'll just forward it to you now, Erin, so you have it in front of you. >> Sarah. >> Sarah. >> We're going to start to go through these letters. Why don't you look at your email and figure out which which letter you need to comment on and then tell us,
okay, when you find that. >> Yeah, I just resent it to you, Aaron. >> All right. Does anybody have any comments or on uh letter U? Anyone comment on V?
>> Excuse me. I don't have the document on my screen anymore. Could >> you had it up a minute ago, Erin? >> Yeah, I I was just trying to get um Sarah's email. >> I think it's You know what? I see where it is, Erin. It's at the bottom of page
17 of the draft you're working off of. It's titled Forest Management. >> Okay. So, we'll hold off until we get down there. Okay. >> Sorry about that. >> No, that's okay. It's It's I'm toggling back and forth and I um Yeah. Okay. Here
we go. Sorry. >> Okay. So, U is buffer strips along wetlands and waterways and no one had any comment on that. Uh what about V soil conservation W
fencing X cover crops there was one comment I had I did just didn't know what uh on X the word uh real soil erosion means. Um, so, uh,
reals and gullies, if you ever see like a, um, a clearcut hillside where soil's been disturbed and it rains, you see these like sort of channels that form in the in the um, soil and and then it kind of deposits these plumes at the bottom
of the slope. Um, that's what that is describing. >> All right, I learned something today. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> All right. Uh any comments on why irrigation? Um >> yes sir.
>> Um I just suggest we put real in the uh in the glossery since if if one of us doesn't know what it means, other people reading it won't either. >> Great idea, Bruce. Thank you. >> Can we do that, Erin?
>> Yes. Got it. >> Can you Can you make it a little bigger, Erin? >> Thank you. >> All right. Um and uh Z use of pesticides,
double A and double B. Okay. uh anything on the uh on the appendices or uh the subtext there
up to forest management. Is there anything up to forest management? >> I'd like to talk about A. >> Let's talk about A. Appendex A. You mean? >> Yeah.
I figure that we look at the appendices afterward. >> Well, just sometime. >> Yep. Okay. Yeah. Let's uh let's do this document here, then we'll jump into the appendices if if if that's uh works. Okay. >> And well, and since we're there, let's
ask the question for Aaron. It says B and C needs to be developed. Is that something we still need to do or you were doing it or Um I think so this is this is one thing that um I
guess I would suggest is when we get through all of the content that we were solid on the content all of the remaining things. So, for example, like filling out all of the definitions,
um making sure the in the um index is accurate with page numbers and so forth and all of those sort of administrative changes as well as these types of administrative changes. At that point, I can populate all of those and prepare them. I can certainly give everybody a
chance to look at them before we go to public hearing. um you know so that we can give it another quick look. Um I think before it goes for a final review with the town attorney, we should have those documents kind of ready in like a
sort of very semifinal ready to share publicly um version. But I don't think um I think we should finalize the content before we develop those forms, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. >> Okay.
>> Okay. Um so without any more then uh we'll move to uh forest management >> here. I've got comments. They're not very many but I can give them to you. >> All right. Do you have you do you have comments on the first page?
>> That's the right first there. Yes. So instead of titling it forest management, I suggest that it read conservation land management. And I mean so so you understand where I'm going with these comments. I think
that um so this talks about how the the um town conservation land is managed. And I think this section should address not just how the forest portion of Ammerst conservation
land is managed but also like the grasslands um you know the the fields you know as well. And I just have a couple of suggestions. So first is to broaden the title so it reads conservation land management instead of forest.
>> So Sarah can I ask you a question uh related to that? Yeah, I I thought that we have other uh and anyone else uh please pitch in. Um that we already have uh something for grasslands and so on.
This is specific to the forests within conser. >> I don't think so. I I don't think there is uh I think that the that didn't make it into the >> the first section. Why don't you just let me um go ahead. So, so um I think
where that might be the missing piece that um where we have staff have drafted um to for an additional section um of this document. Um so I just wanted to add
that >> I um if if you um why don't I tell you what my suggestions are? They're very very simple. I don't think it'll interfere with anything that the staff is doing instead of in terms of grass management plans. I don't think it I
don't think you'll Let me just make my suggestion because they're they're very minimal. >> Go ahead. >> So, that's one. And then in the second to last uh paragraph
of that section >> uh the first paragraph or >> the second to last paragraph of the entire forest management section. >> Okay. >> Okay. Okay. Stop. Stop. So uh the second to left paragraph begins the commission
would support right. So I would take out would so the commission supports and encourages and then all the way to the end of the sentence where it the the last sentence reads all
forest cutting plans. So all fires cutting plans are subject to commission re review and approval I would insert prior to submission of any such forest cutting plans to the state
and any implementation of such forest cutting plans. You you have that language Aaron in my email to you. >> This is the next paragraph down. I'm sorry I was trying to find it in the last paragraph. Can you just say that one more time for me?
It's it's um okay for some reason it doesn't read the same as I don't understand why I was read I don't know it's different from encourages the director I don't have
that in mind I have something I the last sentence of what I provided comments on says all forest cutting plans are subject to commission review and approval where's that >> oh there it is it's at the bottom. I see it. So it's that sentence pre review and
approval and it can would continue on at the after the word approval prior to submission of any such forest cutting plans which is capitalized forest
cutting plans to the state capitalized state and any implementation of such forest cutting plans And then a new sentence. >> Just put plan, road. Okay. >> I think it's plans. And then a new
sentence. That's its own paragraph, but it's just one sentence. New paragraph. Yep. The director of conservation shall prepare and submit a plan for mowing any grass grass land areas of
conservation land. That's Capital Conservation Land. >> Could you say that again? I just couldn't keep up with you. The director of It's in your email. The director of conservation shall prepare and submit a plan for mowing any grass land areas of
conservation land. That's capital C, capital L, prior to implementation of any mowing on said conservation land. any mowing on said. There's an any before the mowing.
No, not there. Oh, yeah. It's further on. Right before any mowing implementation of any mowing onset. >> Yeah. Get rid of that first any and put the any behind the implementation. or behind of
>> implementation of any mowing after of. Yep. So all that all that does is say that all it's doing is saying that the concom has to approve what the what the management plans are for forest and and
grass and mowing. That's all. >> Yeah, those are good good observations. I would add to uh the last sentence there that you've got um uh any mowing uh
must be done in um accordance with uh MGL 131. Which one is it? Uh the >> section 40. >> Yeah. >> Are you are you talking about wetland protection act?
>> Yep. Okay. >> All right. I think that's so >> So, it makes sense to have this sentence here or this paragraph about mowing if we change the title of this section
>> to conservation land management. Right. >> Yeah, that's why I was suggesting it. Yeah. So, it applies to both the forest management plans and this mowing plan. >> Sounds good. >> I'm just typing. I mean, if we're going
to say >> right, are we going to add in bylaw and regulations? Yeah. >> Um and then um so just for I'm just going to put a little tag here because I think this is a good transition to the um so I had
sort of coined it uh mowing um policy but it's uh now early successional management. Um so that would be a good transition and those could be points to insert there. So, I'll just make a note that that'll we'll
review that once it comes through. >> Yeah, we'll review the title, too, because um early successional management is one thing and just mowing is another. And um we're talking about we want to make sure that we that we're uh
that the mowing all the mowing is done appropriately, not just early successional uh management. >> Right? I don't want to uh I do not want to change that title. >> Yeah, because it could I mean if the thing is Erin the way it's drafted it
it's just broad and then the plan comes to the concom and it gets approved and tweaked or whatever and then all the details are in the plan but the but the policy can just have the broad requirement that whatever the plan is comes to the commission. Do you know what I mean? And then you can keep fewer
words in the policy. >> Absolutely. So the the the what I what I however we're going to refer to it that that mowing/ early successional stuff is what it talks about specifically is time
of year for for birds. So like yeah >> no mowing shall take place prior to X date or after X date and same with lands that are in natural heritage and endangered species area. There's a specific criteria for time of year of
mowing. So that was also included. >> And then there's there's a certain mowing pattern that you're supposed to follow. So for example, like when you mow a lawn, you're doing like these straight lines back and forth, right? But when you're mowing a field, you're supposed to start in the middle and move outward. That way any organisms can move
away from the mower while it's going. So the detail that I incorporated in there incorporates all of that which I do feel like will be important to have for our land manager to understand you know the commission's expectations in terms of
that type of detail. But I agree with you in terms of plan. Like if we're going to say what's the mowing plan at Wentworth Farm, you know that it would be good for us to say like this field will be mowed on even years, this will field will be mowed on odd years or
whatever it is so that you guys can >> see that. >> Right. So Erin, or is what you're saying that you'd continue on? You're you got the broad statement of how the plan's got to get approved, but then you're going to go on and give some details of what needs to be in the plan. Is that what you're saying?
>> Can I share with you guys for a second? >> Yes. >> Uh I just want to share my how do I share my um >> let me uh stop sharing and if you request to share, Andre, I should be able to allow you to and actually I'm
going to make you co-host so that you should be able to do that. Okay. Am I sharing now? >> Um, I cannot see your screen, Andre. There should be a little share button at the bottom.
>> Okay, let me try that again. Share. Okay. Do you see stuff? >> Not seeing it there. Do you see anything? >> Oh, there it goes. >> All right. Um, so right here we have uh
we have the town of Weston. Um, and they've uh they started a guy uh a a mowing guide, I guess, and it's got this entire it's got a whole uh bunch of information on it and
we can work our work off of something like this or you guys can. Um, but this is I mean this is a really well put together um or it's a good start at least on uh different things.
It's got all the fields that they have um and when they're going to the timing of it a lot of it also does mention uh what dates uh they're trying to uh avoid for the birds
and uh where they mow. So I think this is something that we can uh aim for. It'll take a little bit but it something like this is one uh one example of uh what we can uh be requesting but I just
wanted to share that so that uh uh so folks would uh would be able to see that you know there's uh there's some good good information out there. Um,
I think there's another uh here we go. Weston's conservation uh fields for uh something for managers. They just, you know, I just kind of came across these because I I was curious what other
towns do. Um but they have some very informative uh stuff here including uh you know including uh recommendations and uh summaries thereof. So we uh we're not
Whoops. Uh we're not alone in what uh in in our search if you would. And uh I think that we could uh I'm gonna stop sharing. I don't know how to do that, but uh am I still sharing?
>> Yes, there should be a red button at the top. >> Okay, >> stop. >> Stop share. Got it. Um anyway, there we go. We've got uh we have a lot of uh different uh places we can look for uh
samples or gobyss. Uh so we're not uh you know, we're not stuck uh trying to figure the whole thing out from the beginning. Uh Jason, you have a question? Yeah, I don't know if this question is more of a I guess maybe an observation, but
we talk a lot about in this section about mature stands of trees, these habitats, how there's very it's a rare habitat type having, you know, extensive stands of mature trees with closed canopies
that are not fragmented. And then we're going to go on to talk about mowing in like early successional habitat management. Are we trying to prevent that succession from occurring
in these areas? Like what's the rationale with the mowing? And like we go to great lengths and this is a lot of just like kind of information. Um, so why are we mowing these like why don't we reduce
mowing to like the pads and why are we mowing some of these fields as opposed to letting them mature and s go into succession? Yeah, I think there's a couple of uh reasons and um I I'm sure Erin's got more to add to it, but
uh two of the reasons uh that I can uh give is one uh for uh certain um grassland uh birds that uh that use the uh the areas. and two is to maintain the area so that it
can be uh uh farmed. And I think that's one of the uh one of the goals that's uh that's been set out there. Um Aaron, >> yeah, so I mean I would encourage all of you if you're ever driving around um on
a lovely fall day to go up to the Harvard Forest. Um there's really beautiful diaramas up there that show um New England through the through the decades. And you know, I think it's really important to remember that when New England was settled, it was
completely clear-cut. And so and also prior to settlement, there was a lot of um fire um that resulted in open fields in Massachusetts. And so we have a lot of species in Massachusetts that are
dependent on open fields. And um as the decades have passed um and agriculture has has basically um uh I mean in many towns agriculture has is no longer happening in the formal
sense of like you know growing vegetables or hay or um having pasturing. um these forests have have regenerated and so there's not a lot of grassland left and so there's some 90 species of of
birds in Massachusetts that are in significant decline and um it's a way to sort of help them to preserve some of their habitat and that's why it's a big push in Massachusetts to maintain grassland habitat. >> Yeah. And I mean I I fully support that
and I I know about that because I'm a burer. But um my um my concerns, my edits in the section have mostly to do with just process and making sure that the conservation commission has sort of
oversight over what's happening. Not not to actually do the plans because that should be done by people who know what they're doing, but but just the oversight process. And honestly over the years I walk every day in Ammerst Conservation Land um near my house at
Amethyst and Wentworth Farm. And I've always been and also G Pond is right near me. I've also I've always been very very troubled by the way in which the the town ms. They mow it absolutely flat, you know, and I'm super concerned about, you know, some of the the early
returning birds like the woodcocks. There's nowhere for them to nest at this point. They used to hear them all over Wentworth and it's silence and there they're there's flocks of uh year round bluebirds that you know use the cover and there's no cover and the mowing is
all the way up to vernal pools and so it's just a question of you know it's I understand the uh definitely and and applaud the um effort to you know maintain grasslands for these these
species. It's just how it's done I think is important. And when and when I've called and expressed my frustration as many other people have, I've been told this because people are worried about ticks and things like that. It's got actually nothing to do with the the species themselves. It's people
complaining about ticks and things like that. So, I'm just that's my personal thing. >> Thanks, Sarah. And um it you're not the only person who's uh who's noticed that and I've heard it from uh others as
well. Um I think you know I think we do uh that's one of the other uh things I'm finding out more and more about is there is a certain separation between um the conservation commission and the town. We regulate the town. We regulate not just
the town. We regulate uh everything uh having to do with wetlands, but the town is one of uh is a part of it and uh and we need to uh keep that in mind when we're as we move forward cuz looking back we really
didn't do that much of it. And um you know I'm seeing I'm seeing issues with uh mowing. I'm seeing issues with uh uh with how Gulp Pond was uh taken care of. the conservation commission was not notified
ahead of time uh of this uh dam breach and it uh and if you look at the laws they we should have been notified ahead of time. We should have been able to uh apply conditions. So these are that's why I brought that up today because we're hopefully going to work our way
into the beavers. Uh but uh we do need to um make sure that we keep this in mind um that we are uh we work collaboratively with the town. Um but some of sometimes I've seen that the
town has uh done stuff that they might not need to be doing in a certain way. That's why we're looking to I think Sarah actually getting this plan out there and having a this guidance is going to
uh be helpful uh the same thing as a beaver uh type uh guidance as well. Um I think that's what we uh the way that uh that we can move forward uh collaboratively here. Thank you uh Bruce.
So I I thought the Weston example was excellent. It's aspirational. It's 40 pages and we have as much in ours would be similar to do that. We're not going to ever get the staff to have the time
to create such a thing. Therefore, we're going to have to work with the town to find uh a student or a set of students or an intern or some other pathway for creating this thing. and we'll need a subcommittee of two or three people to
oversee the process of creating it. Uh so I urge you to think along those lines in terms of actualizing the idea of what the western example gives us. >> Okay. Yep. That's a big uh it's a big
aspiration. I think uh I think we could do it but it would be a lot of work. Thanks, Bruce. >> Then the question is, who's going to go look for the intern? >> Who's going to look for the the
assistance that would be needed or the funding that would be needed? The question is, who's doing that? >> And and that's one of the questions. Sorry. >> And I'm inventing without committing to it. I'm just putting it out there because I can't do it. Uh >> well, we can start with a plan. I mean,
Aaron already drafted a a grass land mowing plan, right, Aaron? So we can start with the plan and then think about how to get it laminated. No, >> it's more about the individual space that well there 45 different grassland
places that they had in that booklet and ours might be fewer like 30, but still it's a lot of information, a lot of mapping and all sorts of stuff. >> Right. But the they're they're currently managing the the land >> up here. Sarah,
>> what's that? We have four people with their hands up. >> Oh, sorry. >> Wait till you're Why don't you put your hand up and we'll get you uh get you involved here. Thanks, Jason. >> Yeah. So, um some something of a
followup to my question or my statement earlier. Um Erin, you mentioned fires, which was something I was going to bring up. Are there any species? Are there anything that actually require fires to
periodically move through the land? And do we I don't think I've ever heard of the town purposely doing a burn, but is that another way to control this? That is >> in other part of the natural cycle.
>> Andre, do you want me to jump in? >> I I could I could jump in myself. If you see out here, uh, sometimes you'll see these, uh, red pines. They're not really native to here, but those are fire propagators. Those are fire uh, um,
there's a word for it, uh, like uh, they they work fine with fire. Uh, white pines maybe a bit, but it overh here in this area, we don't really have fire. uh
uh I forget the word is for it is but um yeah it's not like uh if you're out uh on the Cape for example uh some of the pines out there um I I don't know if you have some more Aaron uh go for it but that's not what we have around here.
>> Yeah, I mean I I know that we have we have done controlled burns um in Ammerst. is just I want to say like a a decade ago or something like that. I can remember um seeing uh I think Mass Fish used to have a program where they would do these burns and they would actually
administer them and um help cities and towns because it you know it it does there are benefits to it. Um but >> yeahtheothetical to carbon captured though. >> Yeah. And I want to make sure Carol gets a chance. I I do want to have one other
quick point to make once others have had a chance to speak. >> Well, this is going back. Uh Sarah, you said that this was a personal concern of yours. I don't think it's a personal concern. I think it's a question of
applying understanding and applying regulations. And um there's various ways that the conservation commission can be involved in education uh in in addition to publishing p long
pamphlets. Um but it's not just something that you alone care about because you like birds. I mean this is law. That's all.
Thanks, Carol. Sarah, did you have uh something to add? >> No, I'm all set. >> Okay. Uh, Aaron. >> So, um, I haven't we haven't really shared too much of this with the commission, but um,
for a long time now, I've been wanting to put together what I would describe as a um, townwide operation and maintenance plan for our conservation lands, which very similar to the document that Andre shared. And I have had three separate
interns that I've recruited in an attempt to help me kickstart the development of that. And it uh for a variety of reasons hasn't gotten very far. But you can imagine I mean just looking at the document Andre shared something like that. But it's even more
intensive because I'm talking about um places where we need 400 ft of boardwalk replaced, places where we need um culverts removed and replaced with foot bridges, things like that. So I'm talking like a holistic operation and maintenance plan for the town, which
would be essentially a permit. because um you know when you're talking about review and approval of these plans from my perspective as a you know a person who reviews permits it's like it comes to me in a permit I'm reviewing the
proposal the commission's reviewing the proposal and then they're issuing a permit for that activity to to happen. So that's kind of how I envisioned it moving forward. But I think I love Bruce's idea of involving you know stu student interns. I just attended on
February 27th the UMass Environmental Career Fair and got a list of about 15 interns who I'm emailed yesterday to try to um get people kickarted. I'm meeting with one of them um next week. So, I'm I am working on this behind the scenes.
It's just like I'm with everything else going on, I have to, you know, I'm maneuvering to try to figure it out, but it is happening behind the scenes. >> Very good. Thanks, Aaron. Okay, let's uh let's work our way back
to uh the conservation land management um or forest management uh portions here. Um, if we can go down to uh 1, two, 3,
the bottom of the fourth um paragraph. Keep going. All right. Right there. Stop it there. It says uh after the blue uh that you see there, it says carbon credits will not be sold without commission review.
Shall not. Okay. Um now, uh come down to to where it says Ammerst is located within the Connecticut River Valley sub uh eco region. This is a really good and informative um uh paragraph.
Um, I frankly think that should be at the very beginning of our um, >> so where it says, you know, it explains where Ammerst is and so on so forth. I
feel like that should be um, at the at the beginning of uh, forest management or the whole, you know, the at the beginning of the land management uh, section. Uh, and and I'm I'd like to
hear what uh what others think. >> Um, and you want all the way down to the bottom of the paragraph. Andre moved or >> the entire paragraph because it's it's a very it's informative and it kind of sets the scene for where we are, so to speak.
>> Okay. Are others okay with that relocation? I guess so. Once we move it, I have a couple of tiny edits on it. Okay.
All right. Um somewhere in the middle uh it says to wildlife and then it says the commission will favor look on on the left it says right around a little further down from where you are further down further down there it says to
wildlife the commission will favor right so let's get rid of will and put the conservation commission favors and promotes volts. Okay, now
we can come back to where we were before a little further. Let's come back a several paragraphs down right there. Okay. Um, one one more paragraph down. Okay. Um
I would say uh the it says the commission will favor um something like in its decisions, the conservation uh or the commission uh will favor and promote
or the commission in its decisions will favor whichever sounds best to you guys. Is that okay? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um and that's it. That's all I have. I did
uh I I did notice the same thing about would support and encourage uh on that second to last one. All right. Anybody else with uh anything on um conservation uh lands or the forestry
one? So, we have uh community gardens and I do have a a comment on uh small B there and it says structures are allowed
within the garden areas for storage of water and use their tools etc. I would just put small structures. I don't know if that really that doesn't really define anything, but uh uh on C, any water source connected to a
stream or pond or a new well must be proposed in writing by the department to the commission for review and approval prior to construction. on E. It says to guard against excess so on so
forth. It says the department will arrange for monitoring. Do we should we uh make that a shall do we uh should we like actually make sure that it gets monitored or uh what does
it mean arrange by uh for monitoring? So Andre, I can tell you a little backstory on this, but I see other folks have their hand up. I don't know if you want me to answer or wait >> your story and then we'll uh and then we'll move on to the hands. >> Sure. So the um this was one comment and
then I think there might be another one further down but um the the issue was or the concern there was and we went back and forth with whether it should be shall or you know a little softer language is just that this is something we don't have um
a budget for and we also don't have staff to conduct this stuff. And so it's it's kind of like an unfunded mandate, if you will, like in terms of requiring all of this additional stuff for community gardens, which you know, if
we're able to do it, if we have the funding and the, you know, budget to do it, that's wonderful. But if we don't, then it saying we shall kind of ties our hands. >> Okay. All right. We can leave that out. Now we have uh
two hands up. Jason's uh Jason's hands up first, right? Go ahead, Jason. >> Uh thanks, Andre. Regarding B, the small structures are allowed within the garden areas for storage of water. Um I think that's still I think that's
pretty vague. Who builds the structures? And is it just the overall garden area or is it kind of within your assigned garden plot? um you know who gets to use like if I build it does that mean I like does everybody
just get to use it? I think there's a lot of potential uh well I think it's just vague. >> Yeah. And and it is Bruce you put your hand up. Uh you were involved in this. So I think it's like that because we did
consultation with the community gardeners and each of the two different gardens there are and the needs are really different and so they had they needed to have some input into how it would be done. Um in one case I think there was a sistern that was built up
and another case it was about drilling a a well down and you know the cost involved and such. So, I think we left it that way just to kind of see how it would play out. Um, I don't think it's the case that individual gardeners build their own structures. Um, what they're
looking for is a shed to put the tools in uh at at the end of the day. But, so maybe just change it to small structures maybe allowed within the garden. >> And who's going to do the allow like then >> it also doesn't say do they need to come
to us first? like who does the allowing? >> Yeah. And is there anybody set up for that? I mean, uh, >> yeah, there are managers of each one as I understand it. So should we should we uh say that uh
that it's uh in consultation with the uh uh >> sure >> manager or whatever or yeah what are they called the uh garden >> I don't remember >> do you know what the uh guard garden stewards or whatever are called.
>> Um, >> so in the case of they're both they're different. So in the case of the Amethyst Gardens, I believe it's it's managed mostly by Angela in the town manager's office. Um, in the case of Fort River Farm, there's a actual
I'm not sure how to describe it because I'm not an expert on it, but it's a a special organizational structure where there members vote and there's um like a democratic process for everybody to make decisions together on how the garden is
managed. >> All right. I think we should leave leave it vague then and see where it goes and modify it if we need to. I I don't you know I otherwise uh >> I think that's where we ended up last time. So I agree with you.
>> Yeah, I I think I remember uh I vaguely remember some conversation on that. Bruce, that's all right. Okay. Uh Rachel. Oh, you're you're uh muted. >> Thank you. Um my comments for this
section, I think, fall under that same theme of the the difference in language between something that might be policy versus regulation. You know, what is a recommendation versus something that has teeth? And so I'm struggling with the the the language that's a little reads a
little bit like an ultimatum that the department must throughout this section like um little a department must post its contact information. Um little d the water must be conveniently accessible by user. I'm
wondering if it's better to say will wll um or may um if that's better. I I just I'm just not sure like Garen was saying, I'm not sure that if we were we're saying that the department will do all these things
but there isn't funding to do it. Is it a is it a helpful regulation rather than a policy? >> So you're you're saying that it uh that these are uh more so policies than rags. So therefore they should be like will
>> Yeah. Unless unless folks feel otherwise think we should think of this as categorized as more of a regul regulation and then which case the shall and the must language is appropriate but
>> um any thoughts Bruce? Yeah. Um I think we struggled with this also and I at this juncture I would say try to have it be a a softer view because again the two are so different and they manage themselves largely and I I just think
and we're it's almost too much detail already. So I I just make it softer throughout. >> Yes. >> All right. So we have the one on uh on instead of must uh will right. Um
>> so the department will post its contact information and then little D as in Dave. The second sentence that starts with the water will be conveniently. And then this the third sentence to
ensure accessibility of the water source may be extendable. Little little F would be um the department may provide or will provide. Yeah, I sure provide and I don't know if it
needs to be written if it could be verbal. So it could just be may provide a detailed annual report unless unless folks feel otherwise but >> I think that's going to be a will
>> will >> yeah will yeah sorry about that so Erin if you can undo the may will the department will provide a detailed annual report sorry about that All right. Thank you. Uh, Carol.
>> Uh, hi. I had surgery yesterday and I'm really fading and um, so I'm going to say good evening. Good night to everybody. Okay. >> All right, Carol. Thanks. >> Feel better, Carol. >> Good night, Carol. >> Right. Bye. Bye.
>> Bye. >> Uh, all right. Anything else? Uh, oh, I um I was looking at E and it says the cost for routine soil so on so forth. I would just take that out.
>> Yeah. Um and and I think that that uh that's the the next sentence as well. >> And >> you want to take out the next sentence, Andre? >> The next two sentences. Yep.
recommendations. >> Yeah, >> down to there >> I believe. Now, let me just double check on that. I left the rest out. Uh implementation of this condition by the department is dependent on the availability of staff and budget and may be waved during periods of declared
drought. Yeah. Okay. We'll leave those. But yeah, get rid of that whole thing. It just gets into what what can be tested and all that. And I I think it's there it's not necessary. All right. Anything on plantings? Nothing on plantings.
Okay. Uh beavers. So, I just wanted to point out a couple of things here. Uh, going back to the uh the Gulp Pond uh issue. Um toward the uh toward the end of the
first paragraph, it says the Conservation Commission regulates response actions related to beaver activity within its jurisdiction. In addition, the board of health uh department uh does as well.
Usually what happens here, I just want to give a quick explanation uh with beavers um is usually uh folks will uh will start with looking for an emergency order uh from the board of health. The board of
health has got the uh final decision on uh whether a beaver is to be removed or some beavers are to be removed. Um but if there's uh something having to do with uh the actual structure
um which then uh has to do with uh with uh manipulation of the wetland. Let's say if you take down uh a part of a uh a dam, it means the wetland uh gets smaller. It means that more water runs
down uh downstream, etc. Uh then the conservation commission is involved in it. Um so uh anyway, um that's what I wanted. Yes.
>> Sorry, I'm not raising my hand. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead, Sarah. >> I just have a question for Aaron. Um, uh, this stuff about in cases of emergency, what's going to happen? Is is that
what's required? So, we're talking now just about beaver problems on conservation land. So, even on conservation land in an emergency, the conservation commission is not part of the decision-making. Is that correct, Aaron?
Um, my protocol is if any person contacts me requesting an emergency, I forward the request to Dave and then Dave makes the decision as to whether the emergency is issued or not. I would issue it and then
it's ratified at the next conservation commission meeting. >> Okay. But I so so in my personal experience only with Gulp Pond and only with the beaver the beaver dam and deceiver at G Pond on
three separate occasions over the course of living where I live since 2010. on three separate occasions uh the conservation commission has not been you know has not been uh notified
and action has been taken and it's been ratified in in a rears as an emergency when in my personal opinion there hasn't been one. So I I would like to try to interfere with that uh practice if you see what I mean. I'm not interfere, but
I would like to sort of make sure that that doesn't continue. >> Um, well, Sarah, the the way that it should be is that the Conservation Commission should be
notified ahead of time, >> right? >> Which this doesn't say. >> Well, >> they're not in it. >> Yeah, we're going to No. Well, it does. uh say it a little further on. Have you read? >> No, this this says that in case of
emergencies, town staff communicates with health director and then they do this and then they do this and then the emergency certification is granted and ratified by the concom. >> Yeah. To update the emergency. I guess
what I'm getting at here is that I've literally been in three separate occasions, there's been work done that in my opinion wasn't an emergency and the conservation commission was not notified or involved in the decision and
an emergency certification was ratified after the fact. So this policy as it's written, you know, allows the bypass of the conservation commission, it just does because it gets called an
emergency even though like >> it wasn't. >> So the law says um that we need to be notified. >> Okay. So we should put that in there. >> Absolutely. Because when you look at our uh uh our appendices,
um you'll see that uh that we don't need to be we that they don't need to notify us if it's for the for a take of the beaver. But if you're going to manipulate the wetland, in other words, if you're going
to go through options two or three, uh which would be um putting some kind of water uh control structure or breach the dam, those need to be uh approved by the commission.
>> Okay. So those those the three uh situations that I'm talking to that I personally experienced all of those did not involve a take and only involved
>> a very dramatic reduction in the water. >> Okay, >> we're going to change that. That's not this is unacceptable without uh without having it spelled out. I sorry for not having said that before. Okay. So, I think this language, this in case emergency language needs to be changed
then. >> Um, or added to. Yes. >> Or added to. Yes, >> Jason. >> Yeah. I was just going to say, can we give a list of what or define an emergency?
>> That's uh that's in my notes to do. Yes, we need to define what an emergency is. >> If it's just a water high or something, >> right? The other thing though is even if even if there is a even if there's a definition for what an emergency is, I
think what Andre is saying is if the intervention that's proposed to be taken will involve a a impacting the water, you know, which versus the take of the beaver, then the concom has to give its
approval because because what what can happen is that you know what What could have happened and didn't in these three situations is there could have been a very gradual reduction in the water level that would enable the pond to adapt and the the creatures in the pond
to adapt and that's what not what happened. It's a very shallow pond. So literally it drains like a bathtub in a matter of you know a day or two and it it literally on three separate occasions a wetlands drained a runoff wetlands. it
was just gone. That something that had frogs in it and etc. all summer disappeared in like two to three days. So, you know, that that's just not good. That that's the kind of thing I think that we should be uh overseeing.
>> Yeah. So, I understand that, Sarah, but we do also need to clearly define what an emergency is. I agree. think that we should have >> I don't think that it's uh >> I don't think we should have the
expectation that in in an actual emergency if some drastic you know and and this is an actual emergency or if you know something is blocked up and the road is flooding >> right that >> action needs to be taken you can't wait
until the concom gets together >> there is a way to do that and uh Just the same way that somebody called uh Dave, Dave should have called me. And if he didn't get a hold of me, he should have called Bruce. But that's how
that's how this works is that uh you you talk to the uh the chair and uh the chair then uh works it out with uh with Dave, but nobody in this commission was notified prior to this. And um when you look
>> so we're not it's not the conservation commission then it's the chair of the conservation commission that's like we can't say the entire conservation commission >> emergency uh if it's an emergency and it needs to be done before the next meeting. Yes. >> In other words
>> so that should be defined as well >> going to be calling everybody. He's going to call a call the chair. Right. I I didn't I didn't hear the last thing you said there Jason. You said something and I and then signed off. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's what I mean.
Like it's not like I assume when we say here approvals from the conservation commission then we're talking really the conservation commission like the chair as a representative of the conservation commission >> during the emergency and then it Yes.
And then it gets uh uh picked up later. Um, >> yes, retroactively. >> At the next meeting, we uh ratify it. Yes. >> Yes. >> The other thing we could do is >> Sorry. >> Um, I I want to ask Bruce uh why uh
why it wasn't uh spelled out. You know, the regulations weren't spelled out on this. >> I don't remember. >> Okay, >> I can address that comment. Andre, >> please. So what I did, so we didn't have a beaver section. The the subcommittee
never got to this section. This was um basically sort of an afterthought. I mean, I shouldn't say an afterthought. The committee, we did our best to get through the charge, but we were only able to get through so much. I drafted this based on the way that the town of
Ammerst currently deals with um beaver related situations. Um uh it's not >> that's just the >> Eron if you don't mind me uh saying uh you're familiar with the law, right? >> Yes. >> And the law says that we need to be
notified prior um uh when you look at the the law on the beaver uh things. The very first uh example is uh if it's a uh health emergency, >> one of those nine or 10 different I forget. If the health emergency then the
uh uh board of uh health uh have a say then we have no say meaning if it needs to be if they need to be removed but if there's something to be done with the water um then we need to be notified it's in the law um so I just want to
make sure that that's uh plain and clear to everyone on the commission and everyone uh uh with the town um anyways. >> So, Andre, can I just um just while we're discussing this? So, there there's there's two two issues at play here.
There's beavers in our land management policy on conservation land. And then there's just emergency certifications, right? Because emergency certifications can be townwide. It can be any situation. um just as a staff person, this is how I've
been um directed by my supervisor that we deal with these situations. The commission could certainly establish its own policy in terms of how it wants these things dealt with. And I don't disagree with you with what the the law says and in in other towns I've worked
for, the Concom chair has been the first point of contact in an emergency. So, um, you you guys can establish the way you want the policy written and we can incorporate how we want it done relative to beavers on conservation land, but I
just wanted to say that in terms of like overarching, >> we're talking about like one piece of a bigger discussion. >> Sure. Yeah, I see what you're saying and I appreciate your uh giving the context and putting this uh whole part in here.
Um yeah, I uh I certainly wouldn't want to uh see what happened uh at Gulp Pond the last time uh happen again. And uh you know even in this it says in cases of uh beaver dam breaching or draw down
slow and controlled drawdowns should shall be required to minimize abrupt dewatering of resource areas and prevent erosion sedimentation scour and downstream flooding as well as what's listed in the laws uh you know uh death
to the fish and so on. Um it so if we had had an opportunity to or had a say uh we would have mentioned that but we didn't have an opportunity and we didn't mention it and what happened was a very fast draw down. That's you know
uh not to uh mince words but that's a violation of the uh that's a violation right there. I don't I'm not going to uh make it sound any different. Um so my idea here is not punishment, but let's
make sure this doesn't happen again. Um by uh you know, and in order to do that, we need to kind of forensically uh pick apart what happened so that we know what uh what it was and what we can do
differently. Um, as much of a pain as that might seem to uh to some people, I think it's important. Um, we don't want to see that this kind of stuff happening. We want to we don't want violations of the law. That's what we're here for is to make sure things go
smoothly. Thank you, Eric. Um, Rachel. >> Yeah. Um, back when the subcommittee was working on this, Alex had reached out to me. He had some formatting issues with getting the states diagram into the word doc.
And I looked at it and I was like, "Wow, this is really hard to read design-wise." And I asked if I could if if he would um mind if I mocked up a flowchart and he said, "Sure." Um, and so I have a flowchart which
really helps someone like me use visual to kind of parse out this process. I mean I could share it right now if that's helpful or um could send that along. >> I think it would be uh helpful if you uh could send it to us.
>> Okay. Yeah. Um there is a flowchart in the um in the appendices. Uh maybe that's the chart that uh you made. >> No, >> I don't think he I don't think he
incorporated my what I did. >> Oh, okay. >> I don't know what the discussion was around that. But >> um >> are you sending it now? Um I I was I'm just going to share this as an overview so you can see.
>> Um can you see this? Okay. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So um it's a three-page document and there are three steps of evaluation. So this
first step is and this is just what all I've done is like graphically separated out what the regulations say is step one determine the type of threat and who has jurisdiction. >> Is that is this only to do with beavers? >> Yes, it's very complicated.
>> Um so the first question is as Andrea was saying is there a threat to public water supply and that is a separate category altogether. So if that's a threat to public water supply, Mass D gets involved right away and the state
department of health gets involved. That's that's a really big deal. Um they define the term emergency. It's not meant to imply the applicant has a public health or safety emergency. Um and the emergency permit by the board of health is to solve a public health or
safety threat. So that is one category. So if that happens um the state steps in and intercedes. The other category that we've been talking about is is there threat to human health or safety and that could be on conservation land that could be on
someone's private land. This is also with beaver. This is just beavers. Um the applicant has to apply for emergency permit with the board of health. So that that's applicant to board of health. The board of health determines if there is indeed a threat. if there is a threat,
they're going to go look at the site. Um, and they then and if there's not a threat, they have to tell the applicant why. And there's a whole bunch of appeals. But if there's a threat and the board of health goes to site and agrees that there is a
threat, that's when you get to step two. Um, the applicant has to issue a letter stating what the issue is and the methods they want to pursue. the board of health reviews it. There are three actions that can take place. One is um
box cage traps and they're the traps have to be licensed by Department of Fish and Wildlife. If the the way the state regs read right now, um if they if they box cage traps, they don't have to notify the Conservation Commission. Um
but if they do plan on breaching dams or uh reducing the water flow um they have to notify Conscom. They must >> Wow. >> And then also if it's a shallow flat area it's not acceptable. So that's what
we're talking about too is if you're going to drop the water level in the pond >> which is what happened. >> Yeah. then that's not an acceptable method and that they've got to we got to figure some other solution out. >> But that but this is but ju can you just
hold on one sec before you go on because if you go over to fur to the right it's not just that they're notifying >> they have to request an emergency certificate in advance from the conservation commission. >> Yeah. And so the conservation
commission, even with a board of health threat, the concom has to approve the modification to the beaver dam prior to the work being done. And that's whether or not it's on conservation land. >> Yeah. And that's state law. >> And that's state law. So that that's
like huge. I mean, we could almost >> we can try paring it, but we can almost I mean, this is a great chart, Rachel. We could refer to the chart and we could say in our regulations that the the town has to abide by the state law and and
you know cite the law and then put the chart in the back that helps people figure it out. But you certainly would have enough time if the app has to go through that many hoops. There's plenty of time to notify the conservation commission and request an emergency certificate.
There's also the case where there's not enough time and you know that's the nature of the emergency. What is what is the risk? Um and so the the um guidance also talks through are you in it you know is this is this
something that needs to be resolved in 10 days. So again that's that's a definition of time frame of an emergency situation. Um >> and again even that requires coordination with the conservation commission in that situation if it
involves you know dam modification or lowering >> that's really clear. Thank you so much. >> You're welcome. And then it also goes over if that initial 10day action does not is not effective what the follow-up steps with the follow-up steps. So you
get a an applicant would have multiple multiple iterations to try to resolve it with 10day extensions. Um at at a different point the um Department of Fish and Wildlife get involved. So that's >> well I don't think our town has been
complying with any of this frankly. >> All right. Um, so I encourage us all to take a look also at the appendices uh where there's a really good listing of what um
of what the options are. Um, but if you if you really think about it, anything that manipulates the water, water levels, etc., that's us. If it's just killing the beavers, it's not us. Uh I mean that's kind of the when you when you look at it from a clear standpoint
of what's our authority, our authority is about the wetlands. Um uh so if it's uh something where they're uh going to have to uh remove a beaver uh then it's uh it's a different um it doesn't
involve us. Bruce >> was thinking of a a third alternative. Uh it is pl well ask Aaron I guess but it seems to me it would be possible for the chair having received a request
about an emergency certification could call an emergency meeting of the conservation commission >> because two weeks is a long time and if I'm if I'm a homeowner and my basement is filling up with water because the dam
has reached this tipping point and now the water is all going in my basement. I don't really care about your two weeks. I care about it tomorrow. Now, that doesn't preclude a slow draw down as part of the answer, but I think there could be circumstances where we have to
do it quicker than this chart allows. >> And that's and that's why they uh why there's the option of contacting the uh the chair and the chair saying okay yes >> or you could call us all together and
>> get an emergency meeting. Yep, >> we're up for it. Yeah, I don't whichever. >> Anyway, I'm just thinking of the other alternative. I'm also starting to fade, so I just reporting in. >> Yeah, we're getting to the end. >> Okay, >> thanks. Um, uh, Sarah, uh, Sarah, you're
>> I was just Yeah, I was just going to ask how we're going to do the policy. I mean, you know, how we're going to modify it. Do we know what we're changing in the language? >> Well, I think I think it needs a whole rework. Okay. I would like to maybe I
can do a little bit of this with Aaron. >> Okay. >> You want to do that, Aaron? >> I think we can uh essentially bring in uh the information from the uh uh appendices uh the state recommendations and put
them uh we can kind of plug them in and make things uh a little simpler. Um, I do uh want to define emergency, you know, >> she actually is. It does have somewhat
of a definition there. >> And uh yeah, I mean, I just had a note here that we uh should uh have a review of what uh of some of these old applications or whatever. But I think
just having just knowing uh what what's happened in the last one and uh trying to avoid it I think is enough. Uh so I do like the ide you know both ideas of uh you know we can try to call a uh an
emergency uh meeting. Um or uh I think typically what it is it's it's like that night. Uh, that's kind of what I've been told. Erin, is that kind of how it is? It's the decisions made right then and there.
>> Um, I have never, sorry, I have a hard time with this. Um I have never having done this in three other towns um prior to coming to Ammerst. It has always been a chairperson who of the
commission who was designated as the um decision maker in an emergency to review the situation and grant and and sign actually sign the emergency certification. That is a policy that DP
has has been supportive of and has stood behind in in each of the other towns that I've worked in. and then it's ratified and signed by the remainder of the commission at the following meeting. Um that that has been sort of standard protocol in the other towns I've worked
for. Um uh in terms of the emergency meeting, I you know I'm if the commission if the Ammeris concom wants to try to do that that's fine but I do agree there is a lot of pressure when these situations come in to
you have 24 hours. I mean, that's under the the regs. You have 24 hours. They technically, if you don't respond within 24 hours, can start work. Um, that's my understanding in in the event of a public health or safety emergency. Um,
but however the commission wants to do it in terms of a policy, I think they just need to uh be clear about what that is going to be and and also is it just pertaining to beavers or is this policy for everything pertaining
to emergencies? >> Well, possibly. Yeah, I I think we'll need to discuss that too because we uh we've gotten a few uh a few other uh emergency things like culverts and so on that uh we might want
to have at least something to say about. But I think we need uh we do need to kind of set some protocols such as uh some wording if you would for the emergency uh um
certifications. Um so you know slow draw down etc. That should probably be in our emergency. I don't I don't want to uh actually get in the weeds of it right now, but just for us to keep in mind as we uh as we put
this back together. Um hopefully uh we can get this uh before next uh next meeting or the following. But uh yeah, have some protocols put together uh and have it
spelled out to what happens uh between uh board of health and did you say is Dave speaking Dave speaks for the board of health? Is that what it is? >> Um my understanding is that uh the
health director speaks for the board of health. >> Okay. And so then uh it's the health director speaks for the board of health and then we'll speak for the uh conservation commission meaning uh the
either the uh whole um commission as a uh an emergency meeting or uh just the uh the chair. We could figure that out. Not today. Um
anyway, uh Rachel, did you have your hand up? >> Oh, I was just going to ask if we have an emergency meeting, does it violate open meeting law if we're not notifying in advance? That might be why the >> I was wondering about that. >> Yeah.
>> Do we have do we have to have a a quorum and uh etc., >> right? And that's why there's has been this provision that they allow the chair to sign on behalf of the board and then for the full commission to ratify um
following the um emergency at the at the next scheduled meeting following the emergency. >> Okay. So, if we if that ends up being what we do, then let's uh let's make sure to have protocols set up that we're all in agreement with.
>> That way, there's no, you know, it's always the same thing. >> All right. I uh I think we're getting close to uh our time. We've gotten to the bottom of the beaver uh section and we'll uh and we're in
agreement that Aaron and I are going to uh uh are going to work on um putting this back together. Okay. Uh Bruce
>> um Oops. Oh dear. What happened here? >> You're still here. We can >> I know. It It didn't do what I had hoped. Um, let me just Okay, let me try it again. There we go. Just on this topic.
There's a a talk on Wednesday, March 25th. Unfortunately, it's during our meeting, but you might go by the library and pick. They have like 15 of her books there. You can check them out. >> Very good.
>> Cool. >> And that there is going to be a Saturday um at the Jones Library in March as well. And I'll be there to talk about beavers. And um >> it is March now. uh March 21st um at the Jones Library at
I believe 300 PM there'll be some beaver discussion um at the library. >> All right, good deal. So, okay. Well, I think uh with with all
that um why don't we uh move out of this mode here and go into other business. Um, I know that there was at least one compliance update. Is that correct? I I saw you had a few updates there,
including the UMass. Uh, >> um, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I I was out at a couple sites um that, um, basically all of them had issues. Fort River, um, Hickory Ridge, the solar project, and also the, um,
to a lesser much lesser extent, the small stream restoration project happening at East Street School. And basically asked for some corrections. Um, I was told that those corrections were going to be happening today, and I'm hopeful that I'm going to be able to get out there um, tomorrow morning
before 10:00 a.m. to look at them to see if the corrections were made and things look better. Um so that that is that and then um I will keep the commission updated if there's any ongoing issues. Um the other thing was the
request for scheduling um a site visit to look at the covert replacement. That was a after the-act notice of intent for a enforcement order at um North Village Drive that was completed by UMass. And
um they have options being um uh the morning of Friday, March 13th. So that's that's Friday. Um, they also have tomorrow morning um after after 10:00
a.m. um tomorrow. Uh that won't work for me because I have meetings all day long. So I don't know if commissioners are available um at any specific time um before noon on Friday. Um it would need to be basically like a 9:00 a.m. for me.
But if commissioner are commissioners available and if you're not that's fine. This is a great time to see whether our covert is flowing and I've never seen it flow. Um, it was flowing prior to the replacement and I'm curious if it's flowing now. So, it'd be interesting for
commissioners to see that before we issue a certificate. >> That's the one that had like the 90° turn. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There was a extremely undersized culvert for the perennial stream and
then a larger culvert which it basically caused the stream to divert. Um and then they replaced the undersiz one in kind without a permit from us. That's what prompted the emergency certificate or the um enforcement order. And then we
required a an upgrade of the covert to be um stream crossing compliant. Um, the one on the Hadley side still seems to be the flowing stream. Um, the one on the Ammer side that is actually the mapped perennial stream has not really been
flowing. Um, which, you know, I want to see it's it's tough during drought. It's tough when it's frozen solid. So, maybe with some rain tomorrow, we'll see some movement of water through the cover. I'd be I'm hopeful that we will, but not sure.
I uh I may be able to make it Friday. >> Okay. >> Even if one of you could be there, that would be great. >> Well, hopefully uh hopefully I can make it and hopefully others can too. Um
uh monitoring reports, nothing. Uh >> all right, Andre. >> Yes, sir. Um, Erin, did you say that there was an after the-act approval for that project or after the fact enforcement?
>> Okay. So, just to recap the timeline. Yeah. >> Sorry, Erin. Then I'll just explain this in >> or UMass has some a permit, right? That >> there. Could you explain that for we have some new folks and I could also use
a refresher on the UMass situation. >> So that's >> empetus for me asking. >> Yeah. So UMass has you heard me say I want to do an operation maintenance notice of intent for our conservation lands and all of our mowing and all of our management and all of our
everything. UMass has one of those for its campus. And as part of that, which was approved uh I want to say 7 years ago now, um prior to my arrival with the town of Ammerst, by the way, um want to
make that clear. Uh it was approved. And um it it specifies certain projects that they provided um plan detail for to have approved. So
there was like a list of here are all these projects that are included as part of this blanket notice of intent. And then also in addition to those specific projects, there's like operation maintenance that they do annually. So that might be they're doing algicide
treatments on the UMass pond because there's such bad algae problems. It might be that they're um doing inspections and cleanings of their storm water structures and all of those types of things. They're all rolled into this order of conditions. So, one day I got a
um approached by our pre previous um uh electrical inspector and she said, "Hey, you may want to go take a look out on that. We call it cinder path. It's basically this cinder road that connects um I don't know if you know where um cold storage road is in UMass. And then
there's um uh presidential apartments which are um down on North Pleasant Street and there's this road that connects them in the back um can't be seen from the road. And I was told they were replacing a covert back there. And she said, "Do they have a permit?" And I
said, "No, they were replacing it and they were trying to say they never, first of all, they never notified us of the work. No contact whatsoever. no written notification, no verbal call, nothing. Um, and they were doing the work and they said they were doing it
under this operation and maintenance order of conditions, which under the order of conditions, if they're doing a project that they specifically called out, they have to tell us this project's beginning. We had go out do an erosion control inspection. We know the work is going on. We talk them through it. That
never happened. So, they never told us the work was happening. They went ahead and were underway with the work when I arrived. I had to tell them cease and desist immediately, do a stop work, issue an enforcement order. And
basically at that point, they they had already installed a inind replacement of the existing covert, which was failed, collapsed, whatever. Um, and we required them to file an after the-act notice of intent. So at that
point they started development of a notice of intent. They eventually filed it. We went through a full review process and the commission eventually approved a new stream crossing along with a intensive restoration plan to restore the incredible damage that was
caused out there. The contractor that they had doing the work was Baltazar. And they had basically taken hunks of reclaimed concrete that had been taken from other projects and just dropped them in the stream channel as like check
dams going down the stream. There was all kinds of additional erosion that had been caused. I mean, it was um >> probably the most significant violation I've ever dealt with in Ammerst. And so this is the resolution of that they're seeking a certificate of compliance on.
My concern with it was is and was has been every time I've gone. I have never seen the stream flow through this covert that was replaced. And I find that really uh I guess concerning troubling, you know, because there was a perennial
stream that flowed through it. >> Yes. Bruce, >> you had to get to this topic at the end of the night, right? >> All right. I'm going to be as concise as
I can be. >> One, this happens over and over and over again, and it's really annoying. two, they what is the duration of this plan that
was developed and approved seven years ago? >> Um, that's a great question. So, it it would have already expired except that >> we need a new one, >> right? So, I I'll I can try to track that down uh to get an answer for you,
but there was a there was a tolling period that the that um Baker issued for two years followed by a um three-year ex automatic extension that Healey issued. So, it basically
gave this project an automatic five-year um extension. >> Let's let's figure that out later. But just I I think we need to insist on a complete revision of this plan and a new one. I know it will cause uh a lot of work on our part and but I think we
should insist. >> Three. The third part is for those of you who weren't here and Andre who was um about a year and a half ago they promised they being the vice president for operations who had been on leave because he was quite ill and he got
better and he said oh we're going to do better. We're gonna come proactively to you once a quarter and tell you what we're doing, where we're headed, what's on the docket, blah da da da da. It never happened. And I I can only imagine
they were happy that we didn't press them about it, but now I think we should in >> Why don't we send a letter? He said that to the commission. >> Yes. He he was on the screen saying, "I'm really sorry. We have we've gotten behind. I've been sick, but now we're going to do better and we're going to
come to you proactively once a quarter to tell you what's going on and and so we can work together in the future to do better. Well, that didn't happen and I want it to happen. >> Thank you. >> I mean, this this issue is much more substantial too than even just what Bruce is describing. Like just to give
you an example, in any city or town in the state of Massachusetts, the Conservation Commission signs off on every building permit. Period. In Ammerst, we don't see UMass's building permits because they have a state building inspector. So,
they are issuing building permits and doing construction and there's no sign off by Concom. And that is part and partial to why we've had so many issues because there's no review of their proposed building projects unless they
determine the concom has jurisdiction, which isn't the way it's supposed to work. We're the ones supposed to be looking at it to make that determination. Um the other thing is if you look in last week's packet they provided an annual report um which they're required to do as part of their
operation and maintenance permit. They're required to provide an annual report. I sent some comments back on that um because yeah, I mean I can share with you the contents of that and that might be the the step number one for me to just share an email with what the contents of that
is. But um yeah, I don't want to get too deep in the weeds because everyone's tired. But I had some questions particularly like I'll give you one example. The commission had raised some time ago concerns about the composting facility
which is located on um East Pleasant Street. Um particularly because there was leech eight from the composting facility draining basically directly into a wetland which we documented um out there on a site visit for a different project and they had said they
were going to look at it and come back to us with some kind of plan or whatever. In that in that monitoring report, it says the problem was fixed. It says we fixed the problem. And I'm like, well, when we never got notified that work was happening. It's it's right
next to a vernal pool. It's right next to a wetland. Can you give me more detail? What happened? When did it happen? I got zero response. Um, and then I mean, so that's just one example, but I can share the email with you guys and you can take a look at it before the next meeting.
>> Yeah. And we should get to the bottom of what the law is about what how much say we have over what they do basically which I can try to help you with Aaron. It might need council help a little bit.
>> Yeah, I think it's I think it's uh it's it's anything having to do with uh with the wetlands. Uh >> I mean that's what it should be but >> it's the problem is is that they're skirting around it, >> right? So if they're doing that, we need
to just be really firm with them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Jason >> Erin, are they a designated phase 2 MS4? >> Yes, they have their own MS4.
>> And are we a phase one or we phase two? >> I So I don't know what. Okay. They have a separate MS4 than the town of Ammerst. I'm not sure what phase of MS4 they fall under. I know some towns are a certain
phase. I think >> I would imagine that they and us are both phase 2. >> I believe that that's correct, but I don't want to say definitively. I believe that that's correct. >> Okay. Who reviews all of that? All of their storm water management, post
construction, storm water controls and BMPs, hydroo, all of that. Who reviews any of that? Um, I don't know. I haven't I haven't seen it. >> Okay. That' be I'd be curious to know who if anybody's actually looking at any
of that. >> Yeah. I mean, is I have had zero other than, you know, I haven't reviewed anybody's MS4 um information. Not Town of Ammers, not UMass. I know that that we have, you know, that
we're we are preparing and putting it together and, you know, to be in compliance, but I I have not it's not been shared with me, so I'm not sure. >> Right. >> All right. Well, that's some more uh more work that we need to uh be doing. I
I agree with uh with Bruce and Sarah that uh this has gone on for a long time and I think uh we've seen way too many uh um mixups
uh that have happened uh and that we that we need to uh we need to avoid in the future with with UMass. And I sorry Andre just one last quick little thing. I attempted to rapidly determine and maybe Jason knows the
answer. Who are the town counselors who are uh responsible for UMass? because it's such a big area and there's counselors all around. But whoever they are, we may want to have a meeting with them and and explain our frustration
about this uh the way that the entity that they are in charge of or from the town's point of view uh is behaving and maybe that would help in some way. I don't know. Maybe it would just make it more muddy. But I I couldn't figure out rapidly who they are and there's at
least four of them. So, thank you. >> I think almost every counselor is supposed to have a small chunk of UMass in their rep. >> Well, then we could go to a council meeting at large, you know, and just ask for some time at the council meeting and
say this is untenable. >> Yep. All right. Well, um, everybody's done a good job here again, uh, tonight. Uh thanks everyone for
your uh two cents. Um so Erin um if you can report back to uh Dave that uh we want to uh make sure to get the uh uh beaver protocol that we're going to get uh put together.
Uh we would like to see the mowing plan including the uh the original draft. Frankly, I feel like uh we should be asking um Brad, who's the one who goes out there
and mows, what it is that they, you know, what what he's been using as a guide in the past, what for what he's mowing, just to get an idea how, you know, if it's going to be a drastic change or not. Um, but it might be good
to uh talk to Brad. I I don't know. Any other thoughts on uh bringing Brad out and uh asking him about his mowing? All right. Um, and uh I'd like an explanation at uh
next uh meeting uh about the wetland filing fees um and uh what you know what access uh for the fees fund uh we have because I think um
there's some things that we uh we could use um yeah just to think of about the fact that most of us are not trained. Uh you know that should be something that we uh that you know by the time I'm gone
someday uh every new person coming in gets uh gets their training and uh gets online so that they know what uh you know what their job is here. Um anyway, uh if you get can get that back
uh to Dave, that would be great. Um and that's it. Uh is there any public comment? Uh since we're here, >> there's nobody there.
>> No one. No one. Okay. Well folks uh with that then uh we would be looking for by the way um there are other uh uh commissions etc and the
town council uh where the um chairperson uh makes motions. I don't know why uh what but I was always told here uh the chairperson doesn't make a motion. Anyway, I'm
looking for a motion to adjurnn. Uh, but >> I move we adjourn. >> I second. >> So, I think >> No, I yield to Rachel. >> A motion. Rachel with a second. Rachel, >> I >> Sarah. >> Hi,
>> Bruce. >> Hi, >> Jason. >> I thank you all, please. >> Thank you. Thanks, guys. Have a good night, >> everybody. Good night.