now so I will turn it over to you Alex if there are I will also keep an eye on whether anyone joins us um in the audience but right now there are no attendees but I'll keep an eye on that in case there are questions yeah thank you I can't see that so I think
sometimes boo can hello everybody this is um Alex hor speaking and this is a meeting of the subcommittee on land use of the Conservation Commission today is February 4th and it is 2 minutes past
noon we have an agenda which was posted and I don't have it in front of me but from memory we're going to talk about whatever comments we might have received on things that have been provided to the commission for their review and um then we're going to
continue a discussion about um um landuse land use applications and in there is also fee structure and part of that is also bird bird banding and then following
that on the agenda was beavers and I have been working on that I'll come back to it but um so with with that I'll share my
screen and um U we'll have a look at the changes I made the draft I was working from have Bruce's comments and Michelle's comments embedded and for the most part they
didn't get changed so now I need to go back and share hearing is not turned on Dave I it says send a request so I have sent a request to share my screen should be good
okay okay so right at the top I um the the title of this file got a little messy and confusing so I left the heading as it was and I put in a a current file name
it got so long that I couldn't save it so I had to cut some stuff out which um um didn't didn't change anything and um so we it's now you can see the file name that I sent and it is recorded here
at the top of this document I will note that Aaron in the past has wanted the date or somebody suggested the date at the beginning of the file name and we have been putting the dates at the end doesn't make any difference to me
um and I'm gonna um show that all of the comments that people have made in the past going back to Laura uh originally and and Michelle long time
ago Michelle more recently Bruce more recently are all still in here and um we're going to go through them one by one and all this messiness in the middle is me working on the
document trying to for the most part make it conform with how we have written the other sections for example we use commission instead of Conservation Commission so um we had talked about this
previously and uh we started to talk at the top and it became plain that I was not ready to discuss this document in terms of going down through the comments and we're supposed to come to today's meeting prepared to go through the
comments and address them and hopefully um by the end of this meeting we will have taken care of them and eliminated them and um then we can talk about
whether or not people agree with the track changes and you should be seeing what you're seeing in red or track changes I'm going to begin if I first of all any any general
comments yeah I'm I'm fine until paragraph three okay so if you will bear with me I'm going to start with the first comments at the top which go to your
hand yeah okay which go to Laura per Laura first then then Bruce and then me and there was um so she was suggesting Laura was suggesting charging a fee for L
applications to cover administrative costs Bruce agreed and I wrote that uh administrative costs are high I don't know what people think administrative costs are but my experience when we figured out what we
call biologist days they're high it's over $500 a day and that's everything it takes to have the person on the job Furniture lights supervision secretarial so on so I'm not sure what administ ative
costs are that we would be trying to cover and um so I didn't favor charging fees for reimbursing staff day costs and they get lost to the general
fund and I'd rather I brought this up before I'd rather and I would favor charging fees if they're deposited to into and accounted for in a special account that's available for the benefit of conservation land and I'll stop there
for discussion can I ask a question yeah um so about that fund I I thought that previously Ain had mentioned that it does go into a conservation fund but is it are we sure that it's
going into a general fund so I guess that's a question for Dave so fees if the town any any Department any function of the town that has a fee or fee schedule those fees go to the
general fund so a fee for a inspecting a an apartment a fee for uh land use permit like a noi uh they all go into to the general fund um there are exceptions to that if if
somebody makes a gift for instance I want to buy a tree I want to buy a bench I want to support puffer's Pond those can go into a special account a gift account um I I haven't fully explored whether
there's kind of a workaround to this like if we call it something different does it can it go into a different account so I I can explore that I will say exploring these things with contollers and and the accounting
department can be challenging so because they are not super super supportive of gift accounts um it's just not something that Municipal accounting likes to do so for instance we have a puffers Pond gift
account and that's where the money for that is raised in the puffers Pond breakfast goes but I I will press that a little maybe there's a way if we called it something different
um yeah I think that's why we were using the word donation previously but maybe maybe we came to that from the same now now mitigation funds mitigation mitigation requirements of
the commission do go into a special account they don't go into the general fund I don't think we call them fees we call them what do we call them mitigation their compensation yeah so let me let me
explore that a little bit more could I make a comment on this about reimbursement cost Alex sure um I guess I lean toward and again we'll get into this later but I guess where I
make a a line is let me contrast you know graduate student at UMass wants to do research on birds of prey on ammer conservation land versus um um you know let's use the movie the movie a movie wants to shoot
at puffer Pond a commercial movie Etc I look at those two differently and and I think there's benefit to the town and there's benefit to data collection for that research of birds of prey whereas a commercial
Venture on conservation land is I I just see it in a different light so I'm in favor of fees for that but I'm not in favor of charging a fee for a researcher or something like that
um you know Dave we have a we're going to talk about the fee schedule down below and there's going to be other issues in the second par paragraph having to do with fees um and so I just like to link that also to administrative costs there's there's cost to everything
if I if I have a 45 minute chat with a researcher from UMass about what they're doing on conservation land there's a cost to that but I don't want to I don't think we should charge that researcher when I was working for the fish and wildlife service we had to submit
reimbursable uh agreements with a core of engineers and we had to figure out what our costs were and they we had to roll it all up not just salary salary benefits
leave uh supervision everything the the cost of having Dave Zac at his desk on the job all costs yeah it was over well over $500 and that was seven years ago so when I look at somebody talking
about St costs that's what I think about and I could be I can think differently but that's where I come from so I guess I don't I don't know that I I see your point Alex that it's not actually representative of the true cost
but I don't know if that should it needs to be I mean it's some kind of offset that indicates that there is real effort from the town um involved in the application I
understand I understand and maybe it's just a choice of words that I thought I better explain myself because I that's what I wrote about Bruce for the most part the way it's reflected in this the schedule at the
end is reflective of what I think is appropriate um it just I mean that to a certain extent the ones that have zero in that schedule are part of the way in which the conservation land gets used so
we're not charging for people to walk on the trails we're not charging you know for other things that are benefits of the conservation land and this just one aspect of it from my point of view so let's pick up this conversation when we get down to fee
structure okay okay um is it too early for me to ask if we can delete this um comment or do I say well I agreed with it so I'm fine to delete it wait about the insurance and
liability is it in is it included because I mean before we I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm up at the top no I'm talking about the comment with Laura perlick should I Laura I'm sorry I got her name wrong I can save deleting to the end I think we should do it as we go
along wait we're deleting it but we're rejecting her suggestion is do we want to is that what's happening because if so we should probably track that somehow I I sort of disagree with that I think we should just finish the document
give it to them if she wants to bring it up again hey what happened to my thing from three years ago um she can do yeah all right um okay I hear Michelle I can edit this
comment and say that um I don't know if we're rejecting it you know what you could do Alex is in those three dots next to thumbs up there's a you can select resolved and then it it becomes sort of invisible but it allows it to be kind of
archived result that's what I was going to say preserve preserve it but get it out of the way so that we're one step closer to sending it to the commission okay um quick comment here
from me is we refer to an appendix and my question is what appendix there isn't such a thing right now and would need to be added so the appendix is I think did I write that in I don't know but but it should be the form that's available
online and I think we should all as part of this probably just take a look at that um I remember talking to Erin that I thought we should just review the content of it so that it included some of the stuff we're asking for in this and it was consistent with the content
that we're requiring so like for example well you've all seen the landies requests I'm not sure if Aaron has included some of the stuff about if if this is research project please include like your methods and objectives so that's that's all I was hoping to see
with that but it that's I think the intent is just to uh tack on the actual land use application that people interface with at the end of this yeah so you provided a link okay right
there and I tried to go to that and I had to log in and get a password and it was late and I didn't do it but what I did do is I created uh appendix
I with this this land use application as the subject so I don't quite know um I can put the link in a in a sub in a I can put the link in in a
footnote so that it's not lost and also have the form in the appendix I sounds good you okay with that Michelle yeah and and I again I just think we should all take a look at the form and just make sure that it's consistent with the
criteria that's here so I'm GNA say resolved is that okay yeah okay Alex excuse me you asked me to let you know there is one participant uh that has joined us us um it I believe is
Andre so I don't know if you'd like to ask Andre if he would like to join us let me just see here yeah and we did we did Andre are you there would you like to join us I'm
here would you like to join us I'll keep you in the meeting here if you'd like all right yeah I'm with you I don't I don't want to turn on the camera but uh but yeah I'm here with you thank you okay sorry I just noticed you there but uh to have you join us thanks Andre we
are going through edits on the land use applications section of the of the rules and we've gone through a couple we're going through the comments and um trying to address them and as we address them
we're clicking this resolve thread which archives the comment so we don't lose it sure okay thank you I've been watching uh for about five minutes and I think your idea of uh putting the that form in the appendix uh the application
in the appendex is a great idea that way it's um essentially it's uh it's archived there for everybody to see yep yeah so we might have that link as
you heard in a footnote great okay so we're GNA go um over to U Michelle's comment we had a discussion aboutus for recurring events and such as
the kestral trust and Owl banding was an issue and uh I wrote a reply to that so we're going to um uh it's a good thing Andre provided comments on the bird banding so anyways
I I spent too much time writing this which I'll go through um because it's expresses my feelings aboutus and I'll just begin and Dave you you can be helpful here I would
generally support us for events or programs that reoccur that's where I come from initially aside from bird banding and we'll come back to that it's not not clear to me what reoccurring events or
activities kestral Trust undertakes on conservation land that warrant B uh bundling in anou to save us some amount of time annually and I I'm just ignorant I don't
know what krol is doing on our property I do know they produce maps of our conservation land and put their name on it which makes it look like it's their land um but that's a whole another issue so I'll pause here Dave and maybe
Michelle knows what kinds of things you were enthusiastic aboutus with krol what kinds of things would we put in there that they're doing on our land repeatedly um I I can answer that
um so yeah you know a few years ago when we partnered with castol this would be five or six years ago when they to to locate their property adjacent to the Plumbrook pond off of Bay Road um you know there's this assumption that you
know they they live there now right and they want to program their land which is about three acres and the associate the adjacent conservation land so I think what I've had conversations with Kristen dor their executive director about is you know can we have a more fluid
relationship with them they they want to you know if you if you get their newsletter online or in in print you will see they want to do painting classes uh around the pond they want they want to do bird banding yes they
want to do birding come to come to Sweet Alice Conservation Area you know three I don't know uh whatever every every Saturday morning and we'll do a bird walk there you know and and they want it to be more fluid than they're doing
these programs in this you know spring period do they need to come to the commission to ask permission for every one of those programs essentially so that's an example they are also interested and I've had many discussions with them over the past few years about
helping us with Trail maintenance is that an activity or could that Simply Be anou The Castle trust in the town of amrest uh commission and Department would collaborate on trail maintenance on the Robert Frost Trail and XYZ trail that to me it's it could be a
reoccurring thing we could have a three to five year agreement with them there they help us maintain trails and bridges those are a couple of quick examples one last one would be emmer recreation department they would like to I don't know you know do XYZ
programming on on three conservation lands that could be anou with the town of Amber Recreation Department as opposed to coming with a coming to us every time and asking permission okay and this is separate from bird banding because I know there
are strong feelings about bird banding so what I'm hearing is that in you as far as you're concerned there are a number of repeating organized activities which otherwise they would have to come to the
commission and that would occupy a considerable amount of commission time which may not be necessary if we took care of it in anou and um the last time we actually talked about
this I think we suggested that staff take a stab at drafting anou and um so um hearing hearing what you just said I'll ask Bruce and Michelle what their
feelings are and try and move forward um I'm generally in favor of what Dave was describing I think the staff should create a draft that could be used for different kinds of groups but us look at it and but mostly just let the policy is
we agree there should be be M us let the staff do most of the figuring out of how to do it okay um Michelle I'm I'm fine with that um I
realize I was meant to draft some language but it was going to be just a couple sentences anyway because I think it should be vague enough to accommodate different uses and you know have some discretion at the commission and staff level but all the activities Dave
mentioned I feel could be rolled up in some kind ofou with Kestrel and I'd be fine with that okay can I give you one more example um we have had a 40 30 or 40y year relationship with Applewood the Applewood Community started by Pete West
over with the orchard Arboretum Conservation Area and they contribute money toward that they pay for the mowing of the Arboretum they pay for the planting there so that would be another situation where we would graft
anou with uh a committee there Michelle I just I guess I want to add that I'm you know one thing I like about theou and being more inclusive of the activities is that we I didn't know that with Dave just mentioned or like many of
other things so this at least would provide some clarity about the activities are going on and maybe formalize it a bit more so that's another attractive component to me of theou Andre uh thanks yeah I think mlus are are a
great way to uh to uh save time to have in writing what expectations are and and so on I think M us should be specific to uh certain you know to this activity or that activity for
example um not a general for everything and let's say this uh maintenance uh this maintenance mou for example uh should be specific to uh ensure that there's accountability um and uh let's suppose
and I don't want to use I would I'll use this as an example uh but just think of something similar let's suppose something like the bird banding that requires a permit uh that we want to make sure they have that permit updated um there could be anou that uh says look
you're allowed to do the bird banding uh you know until whatever year or you're allowed to do X activity uh you just need to present us uh at the beginning of each year a valid you know a valid
permit uh as required by whatever other institutions but I think it's a great idea thank you yeah okay so um I'm Gonna Leave M us as a general topic it sounds like we think
it's the best thing since SCE bread um I'm going to turn to my feelings about bird banding and give me a second to just go down through this uh because this is this is my point of view but it
it U this was not easy to write so um with regard to take of migratory Birds which is illegal without a federal permit B Because banding con constitutes take and bird banding is the only
activity on conservation land that requires a federal permit except the hunting of migratory birds and although it may not happen a lot and this is not in writing but although it may not happen a lot it it is the only thing that requires a
federal permit and I don't think it's uh something to be uh glossed over um the Federal permit is issue is only issued to individuals who meet certain criteria or
standards and the permit is held responsible for the well-being of the birds while in possession and the commission has several choices as far G concerned and how to proceed here the first is the easiest it can say nothing in its rules
and regulations about bird banding and just be silent on the issue that would be easy um B it can simply say that bird banding is authorized on conservation land by those who are authorized to ban birds
under a current federal permit that would also be easy and C is it can rule that bird banding on conservation land requires written permission from the
commission for which an application must be filed for a number of reasons I support the latter C if warranted to save time annually
permission to band on conservation land could be granted to the federal permite through anou however I think it would be inappropriate for the commission to Grant permission to ban Birds on
conservation land to a person or entity that has not been issued a federal permit to do so and um primarily because you can't hold them responsible it just is to
me misleading I'll come back to that finally bird banding is substantial enough to Warrant highlighting in this section and Michelle did put in a line which isn't up on the screen yet that's a one
sentence that says that bird banding requires um Federal permits so an application form could be provided in the appendix and I hadn't gone down far enough to see that Michelle had provided
a link and so on so when I was writing this an application form could be provided in the index as well as in the general as well as the general conditions of any permit um that the
Conservation Commission May issue so I'll I'll open it up and without getting into a big discussion about [Music] um just reiterating what I just said and
trying to keep short on I disagree or I agree just um I'd like to focus on our options a b or c because it could be that you folks uh favor some either A or B and that
that would make all this short work so I'll just open it up Bruce you're on mute I know so little about this that I'm going to yield to the rest of you to work this out Michelle I think I favor
B um so that we authorize it as long as someone is authorized by the federal government and that is because we don't regulate who is qualified to bird band we just regulate what happens on our
land so they've already gone through the process of federal permit um I'm comfortable letting the feds handle that and US allowing or not allowing the activity specifically on the land so B I
think that's where it puts me so I did send I'll come back to you Andre I did send um a sample permit to you folks last night along with this thing you're looking at on the screen that happens to
be I didn't I wasn't able to um uh Didact uh personal information so it happens to be Randy dimer's uh bird banding permit issued by USGS by the bird banding lab and um so I
would appreciate if you wouldn't circulate that just because it's got his name in it I know it's a public document I don't think there's anything wrong with that but I just give him the courtesy of privacy um and I could bring it up on the screen but if you had looked at it
it doesn't say uh anything anything beyond the person's name and what they're authorized to do um use Mis Nets uh ban Birds his permit says that endangered
species are not included and then he lists sub several two people as sub permites who are banding birds under his permit and the permit that I provided is the permit that he uses to ban Birds on
siio Conti land during the Spring and some you know during the Spring where he invites people to join him from the fish and wildlife service and and students at UMass and so Andy is the master B bander
is in charge of putting up the Nets and making sure that everything is the way it should be um the permit does not provide sight specific conditions which is why I I
chose C and my personal feeling is that the commission has every right to condition what happens on its land and that's why I favorite see Andre you want to say something I don't you can't I can
see your hand up so I'll just yeah I don't have it up but I was uh but I um I do want to say something um I think that the you know these the conservation land the
committee um or the Conservation Commission is responsible for what happens on conservation land and uh if we uh say yes if you have a permit you can um you can go ahead and
do your thing uh which is B um then we have no oversight on it and we haven't determine whether or not this these people have a permit so I think C is what I would opt for giving the commission essentially a uh the ability
to to oversee whether or not um people are properly permitted uh and then let go from there um I don't I don't you know and and again um I would suggest
that it that uh we have some wording in there that it be done in accordance with the federal permit and its conditions um just like uh we have conditions on our uh on what we do uh
the federal government the fishal wildlife puts conditions on um on the permits they issue yeah and uh typically they will have you'll have the face of the permit I'm not seeing what you see what you have in in
your hand but I've reviewed hundreds of these you have the face of the permit and then it uh has one or two extra pages of uh the what what uh Aon likes to call the boilerplate um conditions
and then uh which are General conditions and then there special conditions uh depending but uh the point being that we uh as that I think that the commission or the town should uh ensure that we that number one people are properly
permitted and number two if they aren't that and that the town can go after them uh uh for uh not having done so that there should be a regulation that says they uh they have to have it let me
explain quickly why as a special agent with fish and wildlife service for a full career uh we uh I um was tasked with enforcing the migratory bird treaty act including the
permitting and the permits uh were such low priority uh that we hardly ever dealt with them we left that to the states and the states don't care don't typically have a lot of energy for that either you
know uh so it can end up that uh a violation like that is left to whomever can enforce and um I don't think I would want to uh be a commissioner or a towns
person here and watch somebody come in and violate uh uh the migratory bird treaty act on a permitting issue and not have the opp the uh option to address that uh legally I hope that makes sense and if
you guys have questions about that I I'd be happy to answer yeah I don't know whose hand was up first I think Michelle thanks I mean I guess I'm in agreement with you and Andre about see as in we would always be doing like a
site specific and an application specific permit with anybody like we do with everything and so I did in roll into the land use application for research and monitoring that there needs to be proof
of the permit provided and that we could and I think Alex you and I both added language about um you know additional considerations in there I don't know if you can bring it up so I'm in agreement with you but I think because this is a
land use application and we're treating it like all land use applications of course we're going to make um you know event specific uh crit criteria as we always do so maybe there isn't a huge
difference between C and D if we're treating this as a land use application under the research and monitoring guidelines that are written into into this plan do does that make sense I just I think we're in agreement with what we want but I didn't mean to say that if
you have a permit come do whatever you want of course we'll say here is not the best place to do it because there's a wetland here we don't want you bringing birds like you know 500 feet away etc etc so I assume that we'd be
conditioning the event always as we always do okay that Mak yeah that makes all kinds of sense I just feel like um uh if we want if we needed to felt the need to uh actually enforce something uh we
would need to have that codified okay so Bruce I I agree with where you've up okay so I now have on the on the screen Andre uh I think others can see Randy dimer's permit Federal bird buring
Federal bird banding permit issued by USGS and uh USGS bird banding laboratory in Laurel Maryland so you notice Randy's name is mentioned he happens to work for the division of migratory Birds here in
adley and under here it gives him per permission to ban passerines near passerines threaten and dangered species not included in the state of Massachusetts and he's authorized to
band use Mis Nets and there's some restriction there and then he then and that's all that it's authorizing it's pretty General um and it doesn't um it names here an
individual it names another individual here says what he's authorized to do under Randy's permit and then we go to the backside page two and here are the boilerplate
conditions in fine print that uh I listed I wrote a whole thing on conditions and I I you know lifted these right here uh
um along with some other things so this is the permit that we're talking about and you can see it a very specific and um there's lots of room for the commission to require um additional conditions
Dave um yeah I'm generally in agreement where all of you are um I guess I wanted to kind of encourage us to if possible to to move bond to some degree I mean the the the number of requests we actually get for bird banding is kind of
extremely small compared to other requests we get so it's not a very common thing um so it doesn't happen very often in my 20 years of of working with the town so I I think sounds like we're all kind of in agreement that the commission
has has and should have as much control as the commission would like and as much detail and uh uh uh you know uh documentation as as you see fit so okay I think it's good what do you see on
your screen now do you see the document with track changes or we still do you still see the permit still see the permit okay I'll go back to that I'll stop sharing that screen unless somebody has some question about
it but Bruce and Michelle have that and um Andre has seen lot of them so he knows what they are except they're not issued by the fish and wildlife service they're issued by USGS uh there is an office of migratory
birds that issues lots of permits under the migratory bird treaty act but anyways so now I'm going to go back to this not an expert at sharing okay so I'm going to say for
us I'm hoping that um how can I get this I don't I don't seem to be able to get the resolved button pushed but I'll just assume that it's resolved and move
on we have a a comment here from why is my um review share share you can see the document with track changes correct yes
yeah I've got some fuzzy stuff on the bottom of the screen in my um I'm not able to highlight the comment we're working on but this has to do with Michelle's comment about adding Insurance liability requirements additional insurance
coverage uh is a condition of approval Bru agreed I'm in agreement and that comment goes I think here um I just to not lose track of that that should probably be
stated in the land use application somewhere like um in in underwriting or fine print or whatever okay so um um how about in the [Music]
application yeah right the landies application I mean I'm kind of surprised it isn't already so maybe it is just kind of seems standard unless there's some some reason why we don't need it
but yeah I got a signal that I'm short on memory so my machine is having problems I um I think what I might do is minimize
my um turn off my camera and maybe that'll give me some some room to work okay I'm just going to make a note to add add insurance to the
application okay I don't I'm not able to edit this right now um Bruce has a comment about College University this is where Michelle added in Lang she said University and he says College
researchers plan to meet certain standards on Animal Care I don't see a problem with that any comments and are you are you seeing the green type clearly on your screen yes okay Alex could you pause on
the comment you made before Oh you took out University Affiliated correct because researchers there could be all you know many different sources of those researchers right well I didn't add University or college and I was
going to take out those words when I was working on it last night and just have researchers so thought can I just explain that it's because it's specific to the Animal Care and use then I thought
Michelle knew that the animal care and use only pertains to education facilities that have to meet that and so would ammer College have to do that Michelle I don't know but probably so I
that's that's why I wondered whether taking out University and and just putting researchers well because a researcher could be like a USGS researcher and they wouldn't have to do Animal Care in use so so I don't I don't know the extent of
it I just know that at UMass you have to do like universities you do have to do it so probably You' have to do it at emmer college but I don't know what they do there what what about maybe researchers are affiliated with scientific or educational uh
institutions who plan to hold or manipulate blah blah blah yeah more words to say the same I'm just gonna google it while you guys are talking okay one other example would be what
about Mass fishing game you know putting transmitters on uh turtles do they have to do so they need so they need they need natural heritage permits gotcha yeah gotcha okay okay I think we're okay there sure
I think so yeah I think so yep so then we got um we're into the I we are now down through all the text and I sorry there's one where it
says um now it's at the top of Page Three it says uh now now it's at the bottom of page two scrolling up a
little where it says invasive plants including and then there was nothing there I know I I have a comment that says including what and I yeah I put a strike outline through
it okay that's fine that was Michelle typing and I think she just that's fine word processing artifact in invasive plants period is good thank you okay so now we are
into fee structure um which is the last part of this section and I have to tell you I hope that's okay on your screen um I the bottom half of my monitor is
fuzzy okay I made a comment could a minimum fee be charged for these topics activities to cover staff day costs incurred by towns staff day costs uh consist and this is just the same s
comment I made before Dave commented on it we've really kind of hashed this one over and we we we we said we'd pick it up again when we get to the fee structure so I'm not quite sure how to
how to go at this uh go down through the text uh go down go down through the comments I want to go as quickly as possible we're looking at 1253 Michelle do you have to go I have
to go at um well 12 no I think I can stay actually I'm in favor of the way the tree structure lit uh is written with the understanding we may change the word fee for some reason but I like the numberers
fine Andre you Andre you had your hand up you took it down yeah it wasn't meant to be up okay it was up last is it easier to go down through the
text uh rather than um the comments um sort of reverse order the the tech there's a lot of comments I I want to be I don't want to burn up a lot of time if we can get through this first just looking at the
text Bruce says he's fine with the numbers I don't quite understand the $500 and if if I with I'm withdrawing it okay up here I put a line through will be required to make a $500 to
$1,000 deposit because I thought this could be handled in under fee structure because no other another fees are deposited or talked about in this introductory sent paragraph So the deposits are not
under um hold on um yeah okay there we go is there could we change the title here structure of fees and deposits for land used applications
and put deposit as the first part separate from the fees and then um I had a question about who who is charged such a high fee or a high High
deposit and I I I just think of some activities that like boy scouts or something that um and I thought well they'll handle it on a caseby casee basis and I let it
go Michelle I don't I don't know where the numbers came from um um so we've had like UMass fundraisers UMass is a nonprofit so there's that
um yeah I don't I don't really have the institutional knowledge to build this one so could we say something about under fee structures um or deposits could we say something about a deposit may be
required as much as and I I don't like saying 500 to 1,000 I'd rather have one number um as as as much as a $1,000 on a caseby Case basis and then give the
rationale yeah I like that because yeah okay and then or or up to a$ th000 yeah same same idea I like it okay I'll make a note to
do that and then number six I struggled with this wording and it I just stumbled over it I had to read it at about six times I just think it's poor wording but I didn't have the patience at that hour to straighten it out leave it to the
editor okay who's the editor well probably uh probably Aaron at some point and then whether the town has other editing things I don't know but the editors the town attorney is
going to go through this entire document there's that too so so can I just come in on this one Alex sorry so the I think there is some discussion about this before because because it says for-profit
events where a fee is being charged um and then I just commented that sometimes there are events put on by for-profit organization where there is no fee being charged and do we
consider those the same as some event where you have to pay to get in uh and and this one I think confus is confusing in that way so if we want it to be a so this only applies to an event where a fee is being charged and I just
wanted to point out that there could be a scenario where a for-profit event is held without a fee or like for example the movie it was a for-profit event that made a lot of money but there is no fee
being charged so I'm I'm just trying to make sure we consider all the scenarios my problem with number six is there's no punctuation no transition between thoughts and it says for for-profit
event where he is being charged fee 20% of fee being charged it I couldn't find I couldn't follow the logic I think this has probably just been cut and pasted over the yeah time we've been working on this so okay I
have a different view now so but let Andre go yeah I mean uh I would recommend uh something uh simple for profit events than uh semi
Colin uh um and and and go from there and then include uh a clause uh saying these fees may be waved um upon uh consult consultation with the
uh with the commission uh allowing the commission essentially uh to see to weed out the um uh uh those that uh that that don't that shouldn't be uh there that a fee
shouldn't be applied to um for example uh the the the filming that you just mentioned you know um or contrast that with uh I don't know with with some other event that uh they're just uh I don't
know taking a picture about a for-profit uh Venture but I I think simplifying the beginning of it for profit events or commercial events or uh something like that uh without the
complication of uh where a fee is being charged and then uh address it later on if needed I I have a a different thought here yeah yeah go ahead Dave was well
go ahead I'm not I'm not trying to sidestep this but as I was listening to you all and thinking about previous conversations we've had about this I feel as though there's so many different scenarios under this category that I I don't think we can described every one
of them and I'm I'm not trying to push this off or sidestep it but I almost think it's going to be on a caseby casee basis you could make a statement about for-profit events require a permit and May have a fee up to $1,000 but I'm
thinking of the movie I'm thinking of yoga courses martial martial arts um the photographer we had in back in the fall I mean I don't know as we can you know take all of those To The Ends because what about that kayak lessons on puffer
Pond what what do we do with them so I almost think it's going to be on a case-by casee basis and to Michelle's point there may be a for-profit event where nobody's charging a fee you know so I guess I'm advocating for stating that for-profit events will be treated
differently they will be require they will require an application and the commission will decide on a case-by casee basis to if they will charge a fee I don't know that's just my quick take yeah I was wondering if we even
have to say anything except uh something simple like Dave was just talking about Bruce I agree that's about the fees I'm going to go back to the question of a deposit because when I look at the I look at numbers one through six they all have
the potential to cause harm to the conservation land the purpose of a deposit is that we get to extract some money to fix whatever the problem is they caused and it could happen to any of those therefore I think separate from
fees there should be a deposit like $500 no matter what it's about and they get you know we'll say within 30 days you get to your deposit back if there's not a problem there is bookkeeping cost on
administrative costs for the town ra it as a proposal then so I that'll have to clear accounting and all that kind of stuff but we can put that in okay Michelle I mean I agree with
Bruce that deposits are a good idea um I I think the scale didn't we write it in up to a th000 so that maybe it could still be done on case-by case basis so that you know a wedding that's very small might not have to yeah have 500
necessarily so it's Case by case but definitely deposit I just want to mention sort of one thing more broadly that you know in our experience and evaluating these and what can take a lot of time is Hing and haing over what those numbers are that are appropriate
so if we leave like the fee structure too vague then it's all it's always up to the commission to figure out what that is and we're always establishing our you know new guidelines to find that correct number which is you know
probably fine but sometimes it's nice to have some guidance or precedent so in cases where we can provide some reasonable guidance that's agreed upon here by us now that could save some deliberation in meetings and hopefully
make our decisions more consistent so I don't have a specific example to give this is just sort of from the lens of you know actually reviewing these and what it's like to review when we have vague guidelines versus at least we can say oh we had established this in our
policy that you know we have grounds to ask for a 20% or we have a grounds ask for a $500 deposit is a lot easier than making it up every time at each meeting so if if um do we have a commission
meeting tomorrow no okay how about if I take a stab based on what I'm hearing uh and write something and get it out to you and you guys can tell me uh how to make it better um sure I can't
send it to you Andre because you're not member of the committee but I um and I have to be concerned about deliberation and all that kind of stuff but um so don't feel bad if I don't send it to you but uh how about if I draft something
and um try and and make this work a little better with what I'm hearing and then um sure we'll come back but the my goal is to get this finished up so that it getss
to Aaron in time to get into the package to go to the commission at their next meeting thank you Alex that'd be great Andre sounds good okay Alex could I add one thing really quick I would very much
like to see more advanced notice I we skipped over it but you know I'm going I'm going up to the text now yeah it says um where does it say that uh somewhere it says get it it says it
says by the by the Wednesday before the next commission meeting yeah I think that is unrealistic I think you should you know because that that also assumes to the applicant that you're going to consider it at your next meeting and they might get a DEC ision and I think
that's very it's quite unrealistic actually because these first have to go through a staff review where we make a recommendation to you you know thumbs up thumbs down we have concerns whatever so getting it the Wednesday before having
time for Aaron to get it on the agenda for staff to review it it's not a lot of time and most of these there's plenty of advanced notice it's not like you we don't have a lot of people go oh I'm going to do research out of the blue you know they're thinking mons ahead so I would I would you know give yourself and
staff more time that's I hold on Bruce as I was working on this last night the sentence land use applications must be submitted to the conservation uh to the commission on or before I even had trouble with saying to the commission because it's really to
staff comes into the staff to go to the commission yeah and it's in online form so I I I would say 30 days you know we've been we've we've been caught collectively we've been caught with oh my God I want to start this and I want
to start next you know next Friday we're like wait a minute that's you know you're putting us in a very difficult situation unless somebody objects I'll put in 30 days yeah that's great I think it should be 30 days or maybe even 60 days before the date of the
event whatever the to wants whatever the town call I think 30 days prior to the date of the event can work okay great thank you thank you I'll make that change and so um I'm going to go up to
the top and keep in mind I can't see the red very well and I'm not able to make changes in my computer as you talk but I will oops there we go I just it just came in good maybe I can can I make a change can I
actually type something yeah I can good can I can we quickly go down let's see merged can we quickly go down through my edits I'm sorry that the um formatting and delete I can probably probably get rid
of review track changes uh hold on I get ready to move this track changes rid of formatting
okay I'm just going to go paragraph by paragraph if you haven't read it I'll give you time and ask that you you say something if you have a problem with the edit and I'll just say in most cases it's trying to
make uh their editorial I tried there's no change of substance that I'm that I was aware of so I'm going to go just paragraph by paragraph first paragraph um are you okay with the
changes yes okay Michelle yeah second paragraph Yes yeah I have a question and I because I did say will be equal
opportunity and my thinking was that equal opportunity means everything in the IE I kept everything that was original because somebody thought dearly about it but I wonder is is the IE even
necessary is equal opportunity mean I'd leave it the way you have it good okay that's fine next third paragraph um we there's some
changes that are going to happen from that we already talked about third paragraph begins land used applications must be submitted I've got that to change that to staff for delivery to the commission for
consideration of the commission 30 days prior to the event yep okay next paragraph begins uh for any activity seeing seeking written
permission I'm basically all I did was was take them out of the paragraph put them as numbered of things and add proper references Michelle looks good the next
paragraph groups may be required there no change there a group Next paragraph a group's past use y I'm fine with that Alex I it looks to me like the paragraph concerning the
Animal Care use committee got deleted oh no there it is no no it was it it came Direct in the copy that you sent this morning or yesterday it came directly after the one through seven thing oh maybe I'm I'm jumping ahead too
far I'm sorry my fault I withdraw yeah we're not there yet yeah sorry a group's past use or abuse fine there's only one change there I'm going to step away just for a moment
just have to deal with one thing but okay Dave the the next one is the commission welcomes research and monitoring good and all the bullets are included in your current
consideration um that's got a bunch of changes by Michelle yeah for consistency you have might have periods at the end of the second the third and fourth bowlet yeah I tried to catch those I there is there is a period after the second
bullet there is no period after the right after the fourth I can put that in um I'm not quite sure what's happening here but I'm not sure where I am I I'm having
problem with just moving my pointer let's not waste time on it I'll catch it um next paragraph land used applications for the purpose of research it doesn't say um for purpose
of research it just says purpose research or the purpose of research there yeah can I make a comment on this one um number seven it it feels I don't know a little
oh hold on just a minute I I'm not quite it's just I'm not quite sure where my pointer is and I think I may have made a change that I'm not aware of I'll catch it number seven yeah go ahead um it just feels strange to me and I was
just wondering if anybody else thought it was odd I accepted it the way it was written and the activity was yours change yeah I mean at it so the land use applic so
basically okay so what we're asking here is there's going to be like a a question on a land 's application it's self was like a check box that says is this activity related to for-profit gain or commercial Enterprise I think it's
okay okay doesn't seem that odd if anything I'd add please explain but yeah yeah but I I actually had a problem with that with number seven I left it alone because frankly you guys had looked at it and actually thought to make changes
but this topic is research and monitoring and I'm not sure I don't know of that research and monitoring for profit is um are you talking about a consulting firm doing the
work mean I'm not talking about anything exactly let me think of it I'm not sure um who does research and monitoring for profit I suppose it could be paid to gather data of some sort like historical
data or something like that but again I I just I think it's a little weird but part of the group if if you consider uh all the medical research all that kind of stuff that's all research for profit
any kind of um uh Tech research um you know somebody could call uh trying out a certain type of uh drone um as research um I do think though that the uh
that qu that number seven there first of all isn't it already in um in the application if so if it is already uh in the application a question of is it a for-profit or not then I don't think
that it needs to be stated that the applicant has to it out because they got to fill it out anyway so are you suggesting that we could delete number seven absolutely that's just my my as long as it's
somewhere it's up the whole profit question is up above yeah it's just a little redundant and worded oddly yeah I didn't mess with it
Michelle can we delete this me okay okay um goe uh so I am now down to University Affiliated researchers and that's
University colge Affiliated corre I I have some clarity this is the I ukac whatever um can we just maybe say when applicable or something so I
looked up this the animal care and use committee and it's it's activities related to research or education so we're probably right by saying that but I don't know if we're being exclusive of the entire kinds of Institutions and
organizations that would need this so I think is like as applicable instead of calling out University or college or it might be educational research institutions I just I just don't want to say I don't know
who needs to use it but it seems more broadly used than I had thought so so let's just say researchers who plan to hold blah blah blah blah and Educators it's both yeah I mean uh if you look at the laws that uh that I enforced in the
past uh fish and wildlife laws they always uh the words are educational and scientific institutions and it's very and that's pretty pretty clear um but if you want to leave it at re just researchers it
could be any researcher educational and what scientific and educational institutions or purposes as well uh depending on what which uh whether you're re uh referring
to the institutions themselves or the uh purpose of their actions I think that's great language scientific and educational institutions or purposes or if you just write um uh researchers uh
or research uh for scientific and educational uh institutions or purposes you you choose and move on from there research by scientific or educational
institutions or purposes yeah I would say for scientific or educational purposes so the preposition being for research for scientific and educ or educational
purposes there you go okay I'll put that in okay so we are at 1221 now um coming to a close we are are we down at the bottom no yeah we jumped up
to clarify some stuff so I think we're done with this document except to address um um Michelle's bottom there um we've got
hold on be structure we didn't actually go down through a through e um I did I change I added photography because of the situation we had with photography and we did change commercial
use to to give opportunity for the commission to wave the prohibitions of commercial use and photog graphy was and nature experiences and a bunch of other things were used as
examples so um I added photography I have a suggestion yeah um well there we go
um voted to the town's GI fund um for examp for example but not uh ex uh inclusive of because there might be something else we don't think of that's the problem with lists yeah
you so you could put you could put F other such events fine or act actions or something yeah yeah yeah anything to have another an F with other
okay yeah okay and in under commercial use I think we even said activities that don't do harm to the land I didn't go back and refresh my memory on that it's another section so it's now
124 um I'm so action items I have some changes to make going to send those to Bruce and and Michelle and with the idea that this goes before the commission for its riew View and comment at its next
[Music] meeting and um action item is that staff Amer staff is going to take a stab at what anou would look like and with Kestrel
perhaps and we you also suggesting apple wood Dave returned yeah those are those are those are examples yes I guess I not sure I can commit to the
most timely I'm going to defer to Our Town Council on those because there are some kind of Legally binding things on that so I I I will ask our town not Town Council Town attorney so I I guess I see that as kind of parallel but separate
from this committee does do we are we really we're not looking for the commission to approve each mou during this process right I guess that's a question I'm putting out yeah um because I I really
don't have the time right now to engage with Kestrel and engage with Applewood and engage with any other users of conservation land onus right this moment could be something for the future so I'll I'll as part part of my finishing
this up I'll I'll go back and make sure we have mou language in here I'm not quite sure where it is and but I'll make sure something's in there and what what I will do is um I didn't
hear any word changes being requested as we went down through accept additions but no changes to the red letters so um I will accept all changes and then I will add the language that
you folks have asked for and I will yellow highlight it when it goes out to you so you don't have to figure out where the changes were made Michelle that sounds good thank you Alex and just per Theus what a
reasonable way to approach that just be that we trigger theou process once somebody be starts beginning some kind of project or activity as if they were going through land use permit well if I could answer that I
mean I would suggest that since we've had organizations you know keep in mind this this subcommittee that you're on was started at my urging to clarify a lot of these issues that have been going on for years and years not necessarily all bad most of them good so part of
that is these kind of ongoing long-term relationships like with Castro like with Applewood so I would just suggest that I will initiate a draft with krol and with Applewood and anyone else that might be in that similar category
and present it to the Commission in the some months ahead for your review and consideration and we'd have probably have certainly have Castro come in and present something to the commission you
know but okay that's fine but still have a sentence or two in this document oh yes yeah yes aboutus you know right what things will go toou what things will just be a land use application with the following uh you
know consideration so a sentence like that might go at the top where it's saying um use of land for scheduled events research uh must be requested through
the commission d da da da and then maybe in this first parag have a sentence about events which are reoccurring um may be suitable for memorandums of agreement okay
um okay so we have um in our meeting on February 18 we have um uh a guest speaker
and who's going to talk about hunting in Northampton and I should um probably say some I should say something to the commission that she's going to be here I
have a I'm Inna there's a delicacy here because she didn't want to talk to the whole commission and um but I would just as soon not have some on the commission say that we were silent on the
issue um so this is a a little awkward because if if we put out a notice to the commission that she's going to be here on her own behest to talk about their experiences
with hunting on conservation land and footnote they haven't had any experience because there's never been hunting allowed on conservation land in North Hampton except uh land owned by mass fish and wildlife but if we all of a sudden have
the full commission listening to the committee I've got a deliberation issue number one and number two I put her in an awkward position because she said he didn't want to appear before the full commission so I'm looking for some guidance on what to do here including
you Andre you still with me yeah I'm here have a suggest I have a suggestion you guys will discuss it and I'll give you my opinions as well I have to go um and I just want to say before I go that again I don't know if this is like a a
perfect fit for our intentions of this speaker series thing so if you also decide that she doesn't need to talk that's fine just let me know but I won't be here for February 18th anyway I'll see you guys later thanks bye by
bye Bruce well my suggestion is that the we ask the rest of the commission to appoint one of their members to represent the rest of the commission at the at a meeting where they can't vote or do anything but they can they can comment or or
participate and that we would also commit to giving you know a brief but uh care uh summary of what got said at the subcommittee meeting sort of a set of bullet points about well what is Northampton learn that would be useful
in this discussion Arena of the full uh commission yeah so what we've done is we've set up um I wasn't part of this conversation so I didn't I hav talked with
her and um Michelle did so when I do up the agenda it'll be a half hour we'll give her 10 or 15 minutes to to tell her story and the remainder of the time will
be available for Q&A that works can I jump in Alex um I think that works um I guess I would encourage you Alex
to be in touch with Michelle since Michelle made the contact in I know she had to run now and the our next meeting is during school vacation week so that can be a challenging uh week for people traveling or being away with their kids because they're on school break um so
having said that I think that's fine um but yeah I I think Bruce's idea is a good one and a fine one I I will remind everyone that the three of you are the commissions represented to this commission it's fine if Andre wants to
join that meeting on the 18th that's fine too if more members want to join then we need a it calls into question we we should let this person know so so she's not surprised but two um we should post it as a full commission meeting
which again to Alex's earlier Point does kind of complicate it and and I don't want to put this person in a position that she's not comfortable in since we said oh come to the sub commmittee which I presume seemed less than the full commission um I also think we I also
think we can remind the commission uh that they can watch the video afterward it's recorded in perpetuity so that's always an option too yeah so Dave um and um get I'll get to you in a minute Andre but with regard to deliberation as soon
as we have a quorum of the commission I'm in danger of of deliber liberating without public notice yes yeah could one of the rule I want to stay away from that I don't want to come
to the edge of of of that rule I want to be clear of that rule and if we tell whoever is joining that they're free to ask questions but we're not here to
deliberate hunting were here to a listen to and ask questions to Northampton about their experiences and I I I need I need some guidance on where the line is there on
deliberation I don't frankly know well I don't know enough about it to answer either but I like where you ended up I think we should just double check with uh who other the the councel or the attorney whoever is relevant to
give the guidance we need for that okay I can ask Aon is typically on these matters having to do with the commission she's typically it goes through her with my permission so let us find out from town attorney this issue I mean I think we're
skirting it a little bit honestly we're right on the cusp of it here because we actually have four members of the commission of a seven member body at these meetings so um and there is deliberation here so I think we do
you're right Alex to be a bit concerned I am a bit concerned too and it's nobody's fault but we have you know four interested members of a seven member body that is a gorum so what if there's no voting uh being uh
occurring first of all I'm not voting and yeah these are questions we need to ask the attorney I think yeah yeah okay my suggestion if you don't mind uh now that I got a quick turn if if that's okay my
suggestion um is that uh this is an issue that uh that affects all of us and either open it to uh all Commissioners who want to be there and listen and ask questions and we can ask questions
without actually making statements um or deliberating uh that's my you know the attorney will will be the ultimate decider of that but I think either uh uh we all have um the
opportunity to hear this person and ask questions of them or they don't come you know if they don't want to talk to if they don't want to answer questions or whatever of the full committee what is the what good is it that they're doing you know they're not being if I
just I you know I understand that someone may not just want to be kind of screw routinized or whatever uh but I mean this is something that affects all of us so why is the is it that the subcommittee uh is going to talk to them
and this came after we had decided that we were going to invite different people to the full commission so I that's that's what I'm putting out there uh I feel like we should all be able to uh hear this person and ask
questions well that's there's two things they hear this person uh and ask questions yes and I mean both of them yeah I know you do um I I I'll just go back to the issue of
deliberation that is that is that's something that um goes as high as Paul bachan um being being careful about the open meeting law so
um and when we have when we have a quorum um that's why we say that visitors can ask questions but they can't vote anyways we dance we we we we try to make things as available as possible and
do the dance to stay away from deliberation um but um I I'm I've already said I'm looking for guidance from from Dave and the attorney and how to how to do this correctly I
have a new suggestion I think given the complications and the difficulties I think we that Alex should work with Michelle to withdraw the request for the person to come and that we would look for somebody else from some other town
that in effect does not allow hunting to come to the full commission as one in during some part of the education process yeah Michelle's not here and and I later you could work with her yeah
hear you I'm not sure we'll carry that out um all right that's a suggestion yep Andre um before you speak I can tell you this the little bit of background that I have is that I believe the and I
could be wrong but I believe the when the person in Northampton who's um said yes to Michelle but didn't want to appear before the full commission is that she might have been cons might have been concerned about all
of a sudden starting a huge conversation in Northampton and I don't know that that's a fact go ahead Andre yeah uh let let me just make sure
that the my okay I'm not muted um I'll say it again it's something that uh that you know that concerns us all and um something that we had agreed to do for the full commission meaning bring people in to talk now to say that uh
that the subcommittee is going to have a meeting with with a speaker that we can't uh can't ask questions of or you know we're trying to figure out whether they can be there whether we can attend it or not um
makes uh is kind of makes it a little difficult to uh yeah I Andre those were my opening words so um um
what we didn't say couldn't ask questions we never said that that's what we're deliberating right that's what we're talking about right now right so what I'm saying is that if we can't ask questions and if we're not uh we can't
attend I want to corre I want to correct you excuse me sorry we have not said cannot ask questions I'm asking for guidance my my statement was that if we are saying that we cannot ask questions and if we are saying that we cannot
attend then I don't believe that uh that it that there should be somebody coming in to talk yeah but so far we haven't said either one of those Dave I am saying if you if you hear what I'm saying I'm saying that I don't agree
with somebody coming if that's the case and that's where I leave it it's not a it's not something I'm just telling you what I what my opinion is here I got it so it's not something that you know you don't anyway that's where it is that's
what I think Dave so I want to and remember I'm sorry one more thing that you know the subcommittee is chartered by the full commission and as we've heard I don't know a lot of times the
subcommittee is there to save us time but it's not there to speak on its own without you know without it speaking for all of us so we should all be uh so we all have a a vested interest in it and I think
that if you ask the other folks they would say that they want the option to uh be there and ask questions if needed nobody is nobody has denied access to this meeting Andre I discussing whether to do that or
not and that's my why I'm giving you my opinion so that you take that into account when you're making these decisions okay so I've heard you four or five times say the same thing all right but you come back and you say the same thing to me gentlemen I I have to leave
so can we get to a place where we're you know what we're doing next so yeah I need to I need to end this meeting and I think I'm the host and we're about 15 minutes overtime um I I kind of agree with Bruce that I I I think we ought
to diplomatically thank the per the staff person from Northampton and say we're not ready for this conversation at this time we appreciate you making the offer but um we put a pause on this and I say that one because of Andre's comments about what we agreed uh about
where this conversation would happen and two there really is no proposal before this subcommittee about hunting the the full commission sent it back and it's it it you know so so we're in an
education mode is all I'm saying we're not in a voting mode where we don't have a new draft we we're simply gathering information and we do that at the full commission level and I did agree to reach out to some towns uh to ask if any
of their staff might be willing to come I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet to see if they might come and talk about their experience with hunting but um that is on my my desk to do so I'm kind of in favor of of politely thanking this person from
Northampton and to close this conversation it was when Andre wanted speakers to come we had um agreed that for education purposes there would be speakers come before the full
commission and it is awkward because this person is coming before the or is lined up to come before the subcommittee for education purposes and that is cross
purposes for what we agreed to so I'm sympathetic to um the situation um but on the other hand um um the rules and regulations with regard to hunting will come back into the
subcommittee because when the commission voted on those rules and regulations but for hunting it left the old language about hunting in place without
change and that needs to be updated and I drafted a whole thing about how to codify um hunting being allowed on on conservation
land already which I think this Commit This subcommittee has seen and that has to do with wearing orange and all that kind of stuff so hunting not an educational discussion but the subject of hunting in the ru rules will come
back into this committee sometime in the future before the three months is up but let's take that when it happens I really need to leave I'm sorry thanks Andre thank you you guys need to vote to adjourn do you need to vote to adjourn
well let's do that because I need to go I'm sorry I move that we adjourn it is 120 146 hi thank you all I'm going to stop the recording here thank you thanks