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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=snA4kWF4rws

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Good evening folks. Uh this is Andre Gada and uh we're here with the Ammeris Conservation Commission. Uh today is 7 is uh the 8th of July 2026. It's 7:04 p.m.

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Um we have all here except Tina, but uh we're expecting her to join us a little later. And um for the town uh employees uh Aaron Jacques and Dave Zelmech are here.

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Um we'll start uh with a brief chair's report. Um we've been working on um on getting the uh uh the uh regulations the land use

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regulations uh in place. Um uh now what we've got left is the is uh hunting um regs and we're um partway through that. So we expect to finish that today. We have one um hearing uh

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today which is uh at um 7:20 and um then after that we'll be uh discussing some uh after the other business we'll be discussing the uh regulations and some other um uh household type uh things to take care

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of. Um, as far as the uh current conditions out there, we do have a significant um drought in uh this part of the state. So, please uh before you uh decide to water anything or use water

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in uh outside of your house, uh please look up the uh the prohibitions and so on uh that are in in the town's um website uh specifically the uh water department.

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Um after that, we have uh we're we're all set. Uh just something so that uh folks are aware, our next um our next uh conservation commission meeting is going to be

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uh at a different time than uh initially expected and it will be on the 28th. Am I right about that with that date? >> Um I believe it's the 29th, Andre. >> Oh, the 29th. Okay. So, the 29th uh uh

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Thursday, I mean uh Wednesday instead of um the 22nd uh when we're going to be uh getting some training from MACC um Mass Association of Conservation

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Commission. Okay, with that said, um I will turn it over to Dave Zomeck uh for uh the director's report. >> Sure. Good evening, everybody. Can can you hear me? Okay. >> Yes, Dave. Thanks. >> Yeah, good. Good evening, everybody. Just a couple of quick updates for you

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all. Um Andre mentioned the drought. Um just a quick natural history note that I am part of a group um that has been studying the eastern spadefoot toad, one of the uh rarest amphibians in Massachusetts for years. And uh during these storms that we get even despite

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the drought, uh this is a fossoral species that comes out um periodically during these these spring and summer storms. And um you know um it's a good thing when we get these, you know, an inch or two or three or more of rain and these toads come out. Unfortunately, we

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did not get enough rain in the valley here, but parts in eastern Mass, southeastern Mass, the Cape and Islands did. So spadefoot toadsuh around the uh the islands are are doing their thing and breeding very quickly and in these very uh very temporary pools. So we'll

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see if we get more rain, you know, later this summer and and get some breeding of eastern spadefoot toad. Um pretty pretty rare critter, but a lot of fun to to to watch and and learn from. Um let's see, moving on to other business. Um, I will

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ask Aaron, there is a there is a a notice going around about a Hampshire College meeting that you all are it'll be a a webinar on July 21st. I don't have the time right in front of me, but I'll have Aaron send you all the um

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notice of that if you're interested in in participating in that webinar. This is a chance for the town and our consulting team uh uh funded by Mass Development to give an overview of of kind of where the town is. And this is

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really specific to zoning. This will not be um this will not be Hampshire College presenting anything. This will be the town of Ammerst working with our consultants uh really setting the groundwork for looking at at some of the zoning ideas and potential reszoning of

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the Hampshire College campus. So that's on July in the evening on July 21st. So I'll I'll send that to Aaron while the meeting is going on and she can forward that on to you, but it'll be a chance for you all to there'll be a a Q&A uh section of that meeting that

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you can participate in. Uh so that's on the 21st. I believe it'll be 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. on the 21st, but more to come on that. Um I know the town manager is making CPA appointments. It's plenty early. We're in no hurry. CPA does not

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meet until the fall. Um but uh town manager Paul Buckman making some appointments there. And just a reminder that you know the concom um a representative, a liaison. I know Jason has done it the last couple of years. So something to keep in the back

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of our minds as we get closer to fall. Um, I've been following the professional development u uh registration and such. Um, I think we've and Erin can can provide you with the details on this, but I believe you

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know the commission as a whole are now you know members if you will and have access to all the online uh resources of MACC. And then I believe some of you are signed up for a workshop. It might be um

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the one on the 29th, but um I think to date um here we are on July 8th and I think with with those investments in professional development, we're about at $1,000. So um uh it was quick in the new

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year to to get some signups going and get some spending going. So, um, uh, between the the two, uh, sets of resources, we're at at about $1,000, uh, in support for you all. So, that's great to get that going. Um, the only other

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update, um, I have actually two quick ones. Um, you know, lots of use of our conservation areas out there. It's a time of year that is, you know, somewhat quieter for Ammerst, uh, given that the UMass and the colleges are are away, but

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we get a lot of visitors, a lot of people traveling here, visiting family and friends. Got a lot of camps. Buffers Pond is is very busy these days, particularly over the Fourth of July um, weekend, long weekend with the hot temperatures. Water quality there has

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been good. We test every week early in the week. So, we've been fortunate to uh not have to post puffer spawn for high bacteria counts. So, that um that is continuing. Uh trash continues to be a refu continues to be a challenge. I I

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believe the the female black bear and cubs has moved on. I'm I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they have and they hopefully will no longer be uh creating kind of a mess up there with the trash. But Brad and uh Anthony out in the field are doing the best they can to kind of manage that. We've also had a lot of

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activity at Amethyst Brook. Amethyst Brook, as you know from the open space and recreation plan, is just such a super popular place with dog walking and hiking and mountain biking and it just it's kind of a nexus for a lot of things. So there's there's occasionally conflict out there. So um you know, we

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we can have some hot tempers and people and dogs not getting along. So, we continue to kind of manage that and we occasionally have to work with APD to to help us out out there. So, um we've we had a little some tempers flare out there at Amethyst Brook this summer and

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maybe part of it is the hot temperatures. Who knows? Um and then the only other thing out at Amethyst, just one final note, um um we have um um a nice relationship with the Ammeris Fire

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Department. We're very thankful uh that they support us out there. So, they have filled the sistern out there at Amethyst Brook for the gardeners. We have 28 gardeners at Amethyst Brook this year. That's the most we've had in maybe, you know, that I can remember. 28 gardeners

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and we have a um a wonderful relationship with the chief of our fire department and he authorizes his staff to to go out there and and take a a a small truck out there and fill the sistern. So, we do that. We've done it twice this year uh to support those

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gardeners because there's no easy access to water out there and uh we have not historically supported having a pump in the in the u in the fluctuating amethyst brook out there. So uh we fill a sistern

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and and we've done it twice and thanks to af. So those are the updates uh that I have brief. >> Um sorry I can't hear you Andre. >> Thank you Dave. >> Okay.

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>> Um can you please uh elaborate on the uh how many on the what you've heard as uh as far as the conflicts. What in other words, give us a little bit of a have there been more than a couple of

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situations? And >> there's always some throughout the There's always some throughout the the season. Um, dogs not getting along, dog owners not getting along. It's, you know, I will

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hear from a dozen different situations throughout the year. Our animal welfare officer, Carol Heburn, will go out and mediate some of these. She's terrific about meeting with people out in the

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field. Um she does not get out on the trails as much as she used to, but um she goes to the dog park, she'll go to Amethyst Brook, she'll go to Wentworth Farm, she'll go to some of the hot spots for

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dog uh walking and try to, you know, talk to people and mediate situations where where necessary. So, so, uh, what you're saying is that the, uh, the small conflicts that occurred were, uh, essentially dog, uh, issues for the

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most. >> Yes. >> Yes. The ones I'm I was referring to. Yeah. >> Thanks for clarifying that. I just, I just wanted to know more or less what uh, >> what it is. And of course, uh, that's that's the most likely candidate there.

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>> Yeah. I mean, um, other examples I'll give just quickly. Um, Andre, um, glad you asked. You know, APD will pretty routinely, um, walk around Puffer Spawn, particularly the main beach, and they will talk to people about having alcohol

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there, having, you know, we occasionally have open fires there. We had, um, over the Fourth of July um, a long weekend. We had some young people setting off fireworks at Wentworth Farm. I I'm not sure. It might have been a commission

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member who alerted us to that. But the the police department, you know, Wentworth Farm can be it seems to be an attractive place for young people to gather. Last year and the year before, we had quite a few fire pits out there. So, we really tried to work with APD to have some conversations with um with the

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young people who are gathering out there and and really um try to dissuade them from gathering at night and you know open fires and fire pits can really you know get out of control in this dry weather and and we don't want to have

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that and and but you know um so so situations like that are kind of mediated and and hopefully don't turn into kind of habitual situations. So yeah. >> Well, thank you. All right. Well, uh any

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questions uh for for Dave? If we have no questions, then uh we'll move uh move on to um land use updates. And it looks like we have a survey

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coming up. Is that right, Aaron? >> Um yes. the um bear with me just one second. The Native Plant Trust um has requested to um do some surveying.

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Um sorry, I'm just getting my bearings here. They usually So they're they're looking at um Lawrence Swamp and Holio Graange. Survey for five populations of local plants at Lawrence Swamp and Holio Graange involves sending trained

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volunteers and botist to visit the sites and see if the plants are still there and record the data about the populations, potentially collect a small sample of seeds for conservation seed bank. And this is an annual um application that the native plant trust

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typically does on conservation land. >> Great. Any questions on that? >> No. >> Any comments from the public on it? Please raise your hand if you uh wish to comment on it. I see no one in the public with their hands raised.

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So, we need a uh we're looking for a motion to approve CLU26-3 with standard conditions. Um, I move we approve that request. Carol with a motion. >> Second.

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>> Uh, Tina with a second. Tina >> I >> Sarah. >> Sorry. I >> Sarah. Uh, Jason. >> Hi, >> Bruce. >> Hi, >> Rachel. >> Hi. and I'm an I. So, CLU 26-3 is

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approved. >> Um, now we move into Is there anything else? Uh, oh, Erin, go ahead. >> Oh, yeah. >> Sorry, I keep I keep bumping the raise hand button by mistake. Sorry. >> No, we're all done then. Uh, land use

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with any land use updates. Is that correct? Okay, with that, we'll move on to the uh to the hearings. And we have one uh general procedure for fairness to all applicants. Uh we have 20 minutes uh set aside for each hearing. Five minutes for presentation

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by the applicant or their rep. Five minutes for uh staff comment. Five minutes for the public uh or two minutes each. And then uh five minutes for uh commissioners. Um

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all materials that you're going to that you need to submit for um uh for these meetings uh should be submitted by the Wednesday uh the week before the meeting at close of business. So last Wednesday should have been uh

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was the last time to submit just so you all know. Um, and when you're presenting, uh, please, uh, provide us your, uh, name, uh, and preferred pronoun, who you're working for. If you are, uh, uh, presenting or

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who you're presenting for, and, um, if you are a member of the public, uh, please provide us your, uh, name, address, and, uh, preferred pronouns. just to make sure that we have uh that we're all on the same page. Um I want to make sure that only one person speaks at

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a time. So please uh speak when when uh I recognize you. Otherwise uh remain muted. All right. Well uh with that now we'll move into our into the uh first hearing. This is a request uh for

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determination submitted by Thai bond in behalf of Eversource Energy to determine whether soil boring and sampling s uh activities at the former manufacturer gas plant MPG on Pelum Road map 15A lots

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2956 39 and 47 are subject to wetlands protection act and wetlands protection town of Ammeris general bylaw article 3.31. um present uh let's see who do we have

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present here uh to bring into our meeting. Uh please uh raise your hand if you're in the uh I see Kate Wilkins is there and Saskia

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Oing see we have three folks in here. Welcome to you to Kate and Saskia. Why don't you go ahead and uh give us your presentation as soon as

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you're uh you're ready. >> Not sure my video is working. I don't know if that matters at all. >> Uh well, only if you plan to show us something. Um, >> just my face as I talk to you. That was really about it.

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>> I think you're fine. Um, and then, uh, Saskia took her, um, is is not muted anymore. Your hand is up, by the way, Kate. >> Okay. >> Um, so, >> okay. Uh, we'll jump right in. Um, Kate Wilkins with Tai and Bond. Um, and

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Saskia with, um, Eversource is on as well. Um this is for the continued um evaluation for the Amoris MGP site. Um

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just preliminary evaluation to identify additional areas of um work and uh kind of planning for the next phase of things. Um we had presented to the commission a few weeks ago um probably over a month ago at this point um about the project details and it came up that

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the area was in mapped rare species habitat. So we went back to natural heritage and um submitted a project checklist and natural heritage uh got back to us yesterday with some additional information um on the rare

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species and any sort of mitigating measures. So, if we move forward at the the items that were outlined in the plan that was sent over to the commission yesterday, um we should be able to move forward without a take of the two species that were identified there. Um

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there is a turtle and a muscle and uh the main consideration was doing contractor training and turtle sweeps prior to um entrance into the area of work. It is nice that the whole area is surrounded by a fence. So,

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Um hopefully at least keeps out the bigger turtles. We'll still be sweeping for anything smaller that could fit through the fence. Um but our plan is to submit um a collection permit so we can move forward with the sweep and um do the sweeping prior to contractors

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getting in there with the mini excavator. Most of the work is done by hand um with a hand augur and on foot, but the one kind of smaller excavator that needs to go in there um we'll make sure to sweep before we get in there for that.

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>> I think you're muted. >> Thank you, Kate. Um >> sorry. Is uh is that the uh the end of your presentation? >> Yep. That's kind of our update for now. If anybody has any questions and needs any sort of recap on the actual project work since it's been a little while, happy to do that. But hopefully

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everybody remembers what we talked about a few weeks ago and we can move forward. >> All right, sounds good. All right, uh staff uh Erin uh will get to comment too. Uh Bruce, you have a question. when

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it's my turn. >> All right. Uh staff, um Erin, if you don't mind. >> Yeah, I don't have any uh concerns with the commission moving forward with issuing a determination tonight. I did add in in the motion um just an

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additional condition, which is that the um applicant would need to um follow the conditions that were designated by Natural Heritage to follow as part of the approval. All right, great. Thank you, Erin. Um,

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we'll, uh, pan over to the public. Uh, if there are any questions from, uh, the public inend in attendance, uh, please, uh, raise your voice, your hand, and we'll let you raise your voice. I see no uh no raised hands. Um, with

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that, then we'll go to uh the commissioners. Bruce, you had a question. >> Yeah. Um, I'm thinking back to the site visit that we did there several years ago, and I these are just two general questions. Um, I don't not long answers

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needed, but when you bring uh toxic materials out of the site, and I remember them being put in barrels, where do they go? That's one question. Where is it sent? And then two, are you finding difficulties or unusual

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circumstances with the dramatic increase and decrease especially now the decrease of the flow of the river and therefore presumably the groundwater is also lower.

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>> Um I can answer these questions. Um, so the material that we pump out the the DNAP or that we have pumped out, we've stopped doing that work. >> Daskia, can you speak up a little louder, please? Or closer. >> Sorry. >> Yep. Thank you. >> Um, is this better?

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>> Much better. >> Much >> great. Excellent. So, the material that we um have pumped out in the past, you know, like you said, goes in barrels. it gets shipped to a a facility where it

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gets um incinerated or burned as a as a fuel. Um so that's where that material has gone. Um the and obviously it's like a licensed facility and you know it's all

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documented with um manifests as far as the um uh groundwater affecting things. the the the napple that we have is is quite heavy and it doesn't it it's heavier than

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water. So it's so the groundwater fluctuation doesn't really affect um where where this material was or where you know where it has gone because it's really um it if it encountered the groundwater

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it would have just sunk through it and kept going until it hit um what you know we consider a confining layer which is like the the the you know the clay that was in glacial lake hits >> um you know a long time ago.

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>> Thank you. >> Sure. >> Great question. Great answer. Uh thank you. Any other questions from uh from commissioners, comments? No. Okay. Uh well then with

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that, we're uh looking to have a motion um as per what's on the screen now. Looking for a motion. Small. >> Uh I move to close the public hearing and issue a positive determination of

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applicability under wetlands protection town of Ammerst general bylaw article 3.31 checking box 5 and a negative determination of applicability under the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act checking box two with noted required

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conditions. An additional condition shall be added that the applicant must follow the conditions in the NHSP approval letter 26-2046. >> I second. >> All right, that was Bruce with a motion

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and Rachel with a second. Um, Rachel, >> hi >> Sarah. >> Hi. >> Dina, >> I >> Jason >> I >> Bruce >> Hi,

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>> I'm an I. So, um, thank thanks both uh Kate and Saskia and uh good luck with with the project. Much appreciated. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Um with that we uh we're now going to

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move into the other business um of uh conservation land pal management policy and regulations final draft talking about hunting. Um

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so let's see last uh during the last meeting uh we were discussing uh we agreed that uh we will want to uh keep some type some form of hunting open. So, uh we then went through um

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recommendations by the town um and through the list of uh uh properties that were recommended to be uh hunting uh closed to hunting. And we went

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through the list of uh sites where uh the town recommends um hunting be allowed. And now we're uh what's pending is the uh

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the places um the properties that are on the middle column of our list which is review to consider hunting to whether to allow or not allow. Um, did we have anything pending on the uh

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recommended to be uh to be prohibited that we remember? Uh, Erin, any of these that um >> I think we got through the entire list last time as I recall. >> Okay.

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All right. So with that then um why don't we I'll uh why don't we do this um Erin and Dave um why don't we go through this list the middle column and um you

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can tell us what your thoughts were uh when you decided to put uh put these uh properties on in that middle column. That way uh it'll help us uh help it'll spark our conversation. Does that make

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sense? Uh Aaron and Dave. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Why don't we we'll do a similar thing where Erin and I can kind of share share the mic here a little bit >> before before we launch. Um Andre, I apologize. I I don't know the agenda as

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well as you and and um Erin. Do we have any other applicants waiting through this or is all business pretty much through for the evening in terms of applications? >> I'm not sure about that, Dave. Um,

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>> there aren't any uh folks in the waiting room for attendees for any of the pending other business items right now. >> Okay. So, Pure Sky might be coming later is what you're saying. Okay. Yes, >> understood. Okay. So, yeah. So, why don't we launch right into this and um

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yeah, so I think Erin, if you could have the map up as well, we we could um jump around that map a little bit, but let me quickly review. So, we're going to go through the the middle column um conservation area by conservation area.

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If there's no questions, we'll just keep going. Um, I want to reiterate this was Aaron and I having conversations really from kind of a a contextual uh standpoint. Where are each of these conservation areas? What are they? What is the

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context under which we own and manage and control them? The town through the commission. uh are they adjacent to homes, apartment complexes, roads, uh open space, APR land, forested land, etc. And

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this is kind of our common sense approach to um and this column in the middle is is our recommendation for you to consider hunting uh for some of the reasons we're going to talk about. So, Zala is the middle outlined partial in

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orange. I guess that is this is between PODC and Katherine Cole. The town purchased this as part of the uh acquisition working collaboratively with the Kestrel Trust a few years ago. You may recall Kestrel picked up about 190 acres in Hadley to the west. That's the

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white area over near the the Key, the legend. And this is a 23 acre parcel between two uh longtime holdings of the town, PODC and Katherryn Cole, where hunting has been allowed for decades. So

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we were recommending that you consider allowing hunting on the middle parcel as well. So all three of these parcels made sense to us because they're surrounded by many acres of already hunted land. This is off of 116. You can see 116 cuts

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due north right right there. Thank you, Erin. And um this says adequate parking um etc. So >> thanks. >> Yes, >> we could probably be even more brief than that. Uh okay, >> Dave, especially given the fact on this

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one it's surrounded by a hunting area. >> Okay, we'll we'll keep going. You all just stop us if need be. So let's let's do this Dave after each one let's just uh check them off. Um so any questions on uh on um Zala?

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I don't see any questions. Okay. Just raise your hands if you have a question on them or a comment on on on them as we go through. Uh that way we'll and what we'll do is we'll assume that no there are no questions on each one unless people raise their hand. Is that how is

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that seems to that's going to work I think a little bit more uh smoothly. All right. >> Okay. Thank you. >> We're gonna move we're gonna move south down 116. This is a 7.7 acre parcel. Uh it is near the just for context.

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Aaron can show you where the old um >> 116 comes together with Meadow Street and the old auction barn which was a marijuana dispensary is right there. Uh this is a parcel um right along the Mill River. The Mill River doesn't show up in this in this u this these layers, but it

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is u surrounded by APR land. Aaron, maybe you could show where the APR land is. Um, and the area in green uh I believe that's with the setback from uh from the road and that area in green uh seemed huntable to us with setbacks from

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116 and setbacks from the um the building to the south west I guess that would be. So that's that's >> those are agricultural beyond it as well, right? >> Yes. Yes. It's all APR land. Um so that's Schwaz. So, I'll pause.

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>> That area there used to be uh stocked. I used to hunt on the other end of that. >> No questions. We'll move on. >> Okay. >> Parson's null. We'll wait for Aaron to get us there on

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the wonderful map she created. Bear >> with me just a second because I'm not, for whatever reason, it's not popping up. There is little old parcels null 4.3 acres. Um, this is I don't know the history of this. We've owned it for a

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long time. I'm sure I have a file in my office with the history of it, but was purchased or acquired many many years ago. Um, we'll get the context here, but again, it is it is off the beaten path. It is away from roads. It is away from

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most houses, and it is surrounded uh in part by Koh's land. Um, to the north, uh, you can see the green is Eastman Brook Conservation Area and then the land in between Eastman Brook and Parson's Null, I believe, is mostly

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owned by the Kohl's Kohl's company. So we thought this was away from roads, away from houses. It it could be it could be hunted and probably the land around it already is. So therefore we landed on recommending it to you.

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Uh pause any questions? >> From Sarah. >> Hi. Yeah. I just have um I don't know a lot. I mean you know you guys know this all really well. When you're describing the land, is it possible to say whether or not there are trail like trails that

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people hike on in in it? >> Sure. Sure. >> Just to get a sense of how it's used by the public. >> Sure. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Yep. Um Kushman Brook,

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we'll move east from here. So Kushmanbrook is a is a part of the Kushman Brook corridor that the town has been working on for probably 50 years. Um we most recently uh picked up the parcels that Aaron could probably point

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out, but again this is a complex. It says on your list 71 acres and 49 acres. Um this is an area along the upper Kushman Brook that feeds Puffer Pond. We don't Erin, and again, please jump in

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here anytime, Erin. Um, we don't have any designated trails, as far as I know, in there. There are some local neighborhood trail usage, if you will. >> There's a trail that comes up, a trail

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head, um, on the >> Oh, >> north side of um, uh, North Lever Road, I believe, with a very small parking area. And then there's a little sort of informal parking area on the south side, but that's primarily for like fishing and

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>> yeah, there's not extensive trails on any of these parcels, but there is a little loop trail as Aaron said on the that would be the north side of East Lever Road right up in there. Um, but other than that, people use it for fishing. Um, we historically had some

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farming on Haskins Meadow, but we haven't for quite some time. It's a lot of forested land uh and then riparian corridor with with associated habitats along the Kushman Brook. It's a really sweet sweet little area. Um but we

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thought it was large enough and um in that context uh could be considered for hunting. >> And Haskins Meadow is the next one. It's part of that complex. So you see that little meadow as you're going toward Shootsbury

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and uh up toward the S-curves. You see Haskins Meadow on your right. It's a it's a it's an old field. It's in early successional habitat. We've been keeping it in early successional habitat for a number of years. Bluebirds uh great um

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great habitat right there along the Kushman Brook. and we recommended that you consider that as huntable. So that's Kushman Brook and Haskins Meadow go kind of together. >> Thanks Dave. >> Large acre large acreage.

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>> Bruce has a question. >> So the question is what is the 90 degree angle line? That seems awkward and strange. And can you point out where the Kushman market is so I can get my

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bearings here? the 90. Sure. What's the 90 degree line? >> Well, you see how there's a line that basically No, one line goes north to south, the other goes east to west, and they come up to a 90° angle, and I don't know why.

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>> Is that the town line? Do you mean the town line? I'm not right. >> I don't know. I'm asking. >> Oh, yeah. That's the down line. Oh, yeah. That's Shootsberry and Leverit. Yes, those are the town lines. Shootsbury to the right and lever it to the to the upper.

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>> Okay. So therefore, some of what we're talking about is in Shootsbury. >> We are um yes, good point, Bruce. Sorry. Um I've stared at these maps too long. So we are showing on here and again Erin, please jump in. You created this

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map, but we are showing some land that is in Shootsbury. We you don't have the authority to um you know allow hunting on land that you don't control >> of this town. Yeah. >> We we have helped manage that for again

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a number of decades. So we helped the town of Shootsbury manage that land and we do to Sarah's question earlier we do have some trails on that property. So thank you for pointing that out. >> Okay. And then a follow on to that which

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does not require an answer right now, but at some point um are we in discussions with the Shootsbury Conservation Commission about how they're managing anything that is right on the line?

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We should be. I think we'd like to get some feedback from you all on whether you believe the and and I should say the only portion that is called Haskins Meadow and um Kushman Brook is in

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Ammerst. Actually, off the top of my head, I'm not sure what Shootsbury calls that oddshaped parcel there. Um, but we should be in con in contact with them to say if you decide to put it on your list as potentially huntable before the

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public hearing, we would reach out to them and say, >> right, >> hey, do you have any concerns about this? >> And and we don't need to talk about it tonight, but at some point there are several other places on our boundaries that are like that. I think Lawrence

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Swamp, piece of Lawrence Swamp is like that. So, I think we should reach out to our neighbors and make sure that the concentration commissions in those towns uh have this information and are aware of what we're doing here. >> So,

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>> for the ones that are right on the boundary, >> sorry, when I'm sharing I can't raise my hand, but I'm pretty sure that this is uh Haskins Meadow continues over onto that piece. I'm not sure why

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it's it's all Huh. That's interesting. >> Anyway, just for the we should look into it. Um obviously it's a an easier task given that death >> on both sides of the line in her work, too. So, >> all right. So, uh I don't think we need

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to figure out the name of this uh >> of this right now. >> Thank you. Let's keep moving on. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Um, >> we're going to move to kind of North Ammerst and Patterson. Just again for context, this is a parcel

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off of East Pleasant Street, east of East Pleasant Street. A lot of people have really never visited it probably because we don't have a a trail system there. Um, we acquired this long before I joined the town service. Um my

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understanding is it was mostly subdivision open space and very wet and couldn't be developed and that's one of the reasons we ended up with it. Um it is surrounded at least on the north and the east and part of the south by

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subdivisions developed during the 70s and 80s and into the early 90s. And then to the west or to the excuse me to the east or to the right uh you you you head out into the farm fields and APR land of Northeast Street. So just to give you a

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little context, it's a large area. um 60 acres and the green portion is out of you know again I I don't want to repeat myself but uh Aaron the green area is the area that is uh well outside

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of the the required setbacks for the state so we thought those acres could be hunted any questions if not we will keep moving a heart farm Not too far away. As the crow flies

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art farm is is this that small rather oddshaped green area in the central lower area of this slide. This is off of Strong Street uh coming from Northeast Street. Um Aaron could probably indicate where the the railroad tracks are. You

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go in the low portion of Strong Street and the railroad tracks go due north south. And this is a piece of property uh not we do not own up to the um to the roadway to the right of way. That is a part of an APR farm. And then you have

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the 12 acre heart conservation area. Again, we have no trails back there, but it's part of a larger complex uh surrounded by APR land and other farmland, and we thought it could be um included in huntable acreage for the

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town. Uh good setbacks, um uh you know, wetlands, some upland areas, and right along the railroad tracks there and uh potentially huntable. And uh just to make sure this is the uh

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portion that's on the east side of the tracks, >> correct? >> Is really what's on the west side we talked about and that is the area around Wildwood. Um you know that that is in the the larger portion there, the larger

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green parcel that we talked about last time. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um moving on. Um, and Andre, could you just remind us what are the setbacks? The setbacks for an active rail line, are they the same as a roadway?

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>> No, there's uh there's no uh I have seen no regulation on the rail line. >> Okay. Okay. Good to know. The only one I've seen is is the rail trail uh which is 150 but otherwise it's roads and

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roads and uh >> uh residences or um occupied basically a residence occupied >> the only federal law I'm aware of is you're not supposed to cross the railroad tracks I think

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>> with a loaded with a loaded shotgun or >> correct yeah with a loaded Yeah. Okay, good to know. I think Yeah. Um, so moving along to Brickyard, a larger area, 89.2 acres. So, this is an area along the rail

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trail. Um, a very nice mix of habitats, a lot of wetland. The um the Hopbrook comes through there. Um it has historically been an area that um has been hunted. Uh

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people duck hunt down there. They probably deer hunt. Um and um we thought it was large enough and you again you can see in the green area designated those designated that part or that portion of the parcel that uh could be

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could be huntable within the the state um uh state laws. So, uh, Brickyard made some sense to us as long as people, uh, respect the setback for the, um, for the rail trail, etc.

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So, that is Brickyard 89.2 acres. >> Thank you, Dave. Sarah has a question. >> Yeah. So, we're now in my almost daily walking area part of this. So, I don't know where it is, but somewhere in here

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is the cutthrough that everybody uses to get from Hotbrook, the road to the rail trail. There's a a cut through and you cross the railroad track to get to the rail trail. And then there's a as you're

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walking along that pretty you know it's it's pretty long path to the right there's a um you know the trail that goes off to the right there and it comes to an old building that's falling down that might

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have been part of a train station at one time. I'm not sure. Um but anyway where do you know where in this property is that cut through that I'm talking about? So, I don't know if there Go ahead, Aaron. >> I I believe it's in the vicinity of

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Hotbrook. Um, so there's there's kind of like a loop trail that you can take if you come through this way and it pops out over near Kestrel Lane. Um, and I think there's another one that comes out on Old Farm. Um there's a loop that you can do like the Harvey Allen trail comes

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in from Stanley Street and you can take you can pop into Wentworth, come all the way around, connect over to the upper fort river, come through the brickyard and connect to the um the bike path and then you can walk down the bike path and do a full loop and come back over to Old Farm.

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>> Right. I'm talking about Yes, I know all of those trails, but I'm just talking about the one that um goes from Hopbrook to the rail trail. I guess it just doesn't show on this map. >> Yeah. So, are you are you familiar with the trail that comes in off Southeast

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Street through it's called the Hotbrook property? >> That's off the rail trail. I'm talking about the one that connects the Hop the road called the Hotbrook called Hot Brook. That's part of the >> Yeah. So, Hopbrook Road is right here. >> Yeah. And somewhere along there, there's

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a road that goes from Hotbrook to the rail trail that everybody uses. >> So the blue is the rail trail. >> Yeah. >> Blue is rail trail. There's a trail that comes in Hotbrook. It it crosses over the rail trail, cuts across Brickyard, and then connects over to Hotbrook.

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>> So it's right in this vicinity. >> Okay. >> That's I believe that's the part of the KC trail. >> Yes, it is. Yep. The KC trail. So we we certainly >> that you that you were uh >> I just I just I'm only cons my only

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concern is uh for just that folks know if you're opening places to hunting the places that are just very very heavily used. So, you know, the rail trail itself obviously is, but so are the

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trail. So, that that particular trail in my opinion less so, although it still is the trail like you can go in Wentworth, you can go through Wentworth, across the rail trail, through another field, over a bridge, through another field, and to

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the rail trail. You can do that. And I think there used to be folks that I I used to meet occasionally folks that were hunting for feeasants in those fields. I personally am less concerned about that because you can see people. I'm a little bit more concerned about

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really heavily trafficked, which that path is trails that go through the woods. You know, it's just it's just that folks realize when it's that it's very heavily used, which that cut through path is. That's all. >> Yeah.

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I I would say also that uh whatever whether open or not, we should be doing some signing. >> Yes, that's a very good idea. >> And maybe >> Yes, because I think as you said, Andre, I think people still hunt it. There's a there people will park their pickup

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trucks at the beginning of that of that trail during hunting season and I don't know whether they're walking along the railroad or what they're doing, but you know, they're definitely folks hunting in there anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a it's a really good place for birds and the wet sea, you

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know, for uh for uh for ducks and uh and uh what is it? Um woodcock. I think they're uh it's really good uh hunting for that. So

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>> anyway, okay. >> So right in there is also that Hopbrook parcel, Erin, correct? Yes, >> which is right there. Um, which is right along the KC trail headed down to the to the rail trail. And there's some nice

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wetland area there. Again, that's an active trail coming off Southeast Street. There's no parking up on Southeast Street. I doubt there ever will be because our our um our our property is very narrow there and it's a very dangerous part of Southeast Street. So, uh I I would not recommend ever

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trying to add parking there. So, it's mainly a a neighborhood cut through and and the KC trail. If people are through hiking on the KC trail, they will use it and pop out on Southeast Street and then pick up the KC trail further. So, >> oops. >> So, that's Hopbrook. It's a small area,

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but the Hopbrook obviously runs right through there. And there's again um quite a bit of habitat there for ducks and geese and and woodcock and other birds as Andre said. Um, Plumbrook moving south.

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So, Plumbrook, we again, this is part of a decadesl long effort to try to protect land along the Plumbrook corridor. We have the Hop Brook, the Plumbrook, Mil River, Kushmanbrook, and all of those have received a lot of attention and a lot of funding through the years. And

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Plumbbrook is this 42 acre parcel in the middle of that. Aaron, maybe you could those colors are a little subtle, but it's right there. And again, it's surrounded by uh some town land, but also some agricultural land and just kind of wet meadow out there in that

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entire area that isn't subdivision. You can see the subdivision surround it on Pomeroy and Potline, but there's a a large area in the middle there. there's a sweet spot that is both private land and then in green public land. So, we

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recommended you consider allowing hunting in there. Um, and then Muddy Brook is right next door to the to the uh west. Um, so this complex made a lot

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of sense for us to consider um, opening for hunting, allowing hunting um, Upper It's not river. So, Upper Four River is just to the north of Brickyard. Uh, as you're

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headed, um, Erin, maybe you could, um, uh, show the intersection of Mill Lane and Southeast Street for context. And then there's the first underpass right there where the rail trail disappears, if you will. And up for River is about a

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13 acre parcel in there. again, the Hop uh excuse me, the Hopbrook and the um and the Fort River come through there and then go under um Southeast Street and the rail trail. So, this is an area with a lot of water, a lot of uh we used

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to have a pretty extensive trail system back there, but frankly with the um dynamic flood plane uh and movement there, we we lost some bridges. And so there is one trail that cuts through the Harvey Allen trail. Aaron, I don't know

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if you could kind of um roughly Yeah. map that out. Something like that. Cuts through and heads over toward the area that Sarah was referring to earlier. And that is a pretty wellused trail. You get uh throughhikers and runners as well as

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um uh folks fishing in there along the along the Fort River. But again, when we've had earlier conversations about trails, that was from the staff standpoint and the feedback we got from the commission that was not deemed uh you know,

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you know, uh something to to to use to eliminate areas for for hunting. It it was deemed okay uh for for most areas. So, Muddy Brook, Upper Fort, and now we jump all the way south down to Bay Road to Sweet Alice.

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Sweet Dallas is the complex of acquisitions we've made through the years. Some very old and then some more recent. This is the area um that surrounds uh the Castral Office. If you could maybe show where the Castella office is. There is the Castro office.

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This doesn't show Plumbrook Pond, but Plumb Brook Pond is just to the left or to the west right there. Um, and this is an area I believe um the owner of the house, Erin, if you could you could show the house u the owner of

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that house uh uh spoke to you last meeting about her concerns about hunting and the fact that they do have some people uh come out uh onto their property and some people get lost up there on the range, but that happens to many people. Um so um this is a large

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area, 90 plus acres. Um the Mount Hoyok range is state park is open for hunting and it abuts to Mount Hoyok state uh park. Um Erin and I have had some conversations, informal conversations with Kestrel. Um they may want to come

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to the public hearing. I don't know if they will. Um but they were interested in your deliberations. I don't know if there's anybody in the audience tonight, but um they were interested in where the commission might go relative to their programs and and their you know the

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increasing visitorship around their property and around our property which is the the pond there at at Sweet Alice. So that is 90.4 acres all of that green. Um, and you can see the light green

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would be not huntable per state law and the dark green would be huntable. Again, practically speaking, one, you know, that finger of the the dark green goes right through the plumbrook pond, I believe. So, you know, you have to take

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this with a little bit of a a grain of salt on the context. Richie, why don't we move any I'll pause there. Any questions about Sweet Alice? We can move east from here along Bay Road to the 19 acre Richie property.

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Uh Richie is a wonderful piece of uh you know former farmland and orchard that we picked up some years ago from the Richie family. They very much wanted to do something conservation-minded. Um it is kept at least part of it is kept in early successional habitat. Now

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there is a trail Erin and an informal parking area. if you could show maybe where the informal parking area is. It's right there. And then there's a trail going due south right up the Mount Hoyok Range uh which is in blue. Again, the back section of this abuts to Mount

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Hoyok Range State Park. And we thought with with the appropriate uh setbacks and spacing that the back portion of this seemed uh appropriate for allowing hunting. Uh and that is Richie 19 acres. Dacon is

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a similar property. Dacon Lyman are similar properties on the um on the Mount Hoyok range. Here they come into view. They abut Richie and have similar characteristics to if you will. Um you

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have the frontage frontage on Bay Road and then uh our properties are set back to some degree. I believe um part of um Dacon is um on the extension of Mechanic Street I believe that is my memory

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serves and then Lyman uh to the east. So again that darker green uh seemed uh logical to allow hunting if you will and u with the appropriate setbacks for the houses set back from uh from uh Beiron.

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So that's Richie, Dacon, Lyman, all three abuing and abuing also the Mount Hoyok range. And then we could go to Houston Gage in Shootsbury. Um again, this is um I hadn't looked at

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this map before tonight, but so this is an interesting outlier. It's a very very odd situation. I'm not aware of another one, but somewhere back in time, uh the town of Ammerst was able to acquire uh the um Houston gauge property, 67

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acres in Shootsbury. And it was um in an unusual way was acquired not for water supply protection, but for conservation. And um I would have to do a little digging

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around to to see how that was even possible because that is not normally a legal a legal avenue for a town to purchase conservation land in another town. So I'm not sure how that all went

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through state uh and local uh process, but it predates me. And so therefore, we uh own and control the 67 acres of of Houston Gage. There is water supply protection land all around Houston Gage. It's a wonderful wooded property with

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with a um uh quite a an extensive trail system. Uh people use it for cross-country skiing, hiking, mountain biking, I presume, and probably hunting because water supply uh and watershed protection land around it are open for hunting. So we thought and there are no

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houses there because most of the land around it is uh for water supply uh and watershed protection. So we thought it was logical to allow. I think to Bruce's point earlier um if you recommend this land we would do some outreach to the

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folks in Shootsbury to make sure they are in um they are aware of your intentions if that is the way you move. So, is that our list? Is that it? >> Incredible property right there. >> I'm sorry.

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>> It's a really nice property. Uh that whole area up there off of uh sand, what is it? Sand >> Sand Hill Road >> is is absolutely incredible. >> Yes, >> really nice property. I see Bruce has his hand up. Well, I'm just going to reiterate the

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point I made earlier. And in the context of getting ahead of it, we may want to have some practice at doing this given that it's plausible this topic will come up in the context of jointly managed conservation land that is in Hadley um

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in the Hampshire College property. Well, just to be clear too, Bruce Shootsbury does not manage this with us, but but is >> I guess my point is maybe they should. I'm I'm advocating for some some further

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ahead thinking about joint management and and at least some conversations about the because maybe they don't even know this this is here. >> Oh, I'm sure they do. Yes, I've I've talked with members of the plan. Okay. Well, anyway, but my I

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>> Yeah. No, I think communication is the key. Um, >> Shootsbury, keep in mind, Shootsbury does not have any staff to manage conservation land. So, um, I'm not sure, you know, that's one of the reasons why the uh, area close to Hatskins Meadows

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is they've asked us to help them out fair enough for years. But I think communication is the key. I'm sure coordinating with them will be easy to just let them know if uh we do decide one thing or another. >> Okay. >> Thank you.

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>> So I believe that is the list. Is that right, Aaron? >> Yes. >> So those are our recommendations. If there are any questions for Aaron or myself, uh we'd be happy to to do the best to respond to them.

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Is there anyone in the public who uh who wishes to um make a comment or have any questions or uh anything regarding uh hunting on town's conservation lands?

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I don't see any hands up. All right. I don't see any hands up here. Um >> thank you. I have a question. >> Oh. Uh, please. >> I just have a question actually really for you, Andre.

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Not to put you on the spot, but you know more about hunting way more than I do. So, I think I understand the um rationale for the importance of hunting deer. Um, beyond just that hunters are

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conservationists by and large and I know. Um, but can you just help me out with birds? Because I I'm a birder. So like it what would what's the rationale for allowing hunting for birds?

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>> Um, more than anything uh it's uh the as far as rationale it's the tradition. Um I don't think for birds that we would be seeing overpop populated uh you know uh over uh populations of uh the different birds

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that are hunted usually. Um, if you're talking migratory uh game birds, uh you'd be talking about um uh ducks, um geese and um

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uh woodcock and uh doves which are not hunted in this state. um for the most part those are the ones that uh that are and those uh you know you're not going to control those don't those populations don't need

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controlling. Um so that in terms of uh uh you know those game birds it's not uh it's not a manage there is no management um benefit that I see other than the uh

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than uh traditions um if you're talking about uh some of the other animals like uh uh rabbits and uh squirrels uh

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and so on. Um I don't you know I don't think that the uh hunters really affect the population either. Um, so when we're talking about the populations, uh, you, uh, for the most part it's the deer, um, or or if

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some folks have an issue with predators, but predators t predators tend to follow the prey. When there's less prey, the predators come down as well. So, in a natural way, that is natural setting. Um, so

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that there's your answer. >> Can I ask a follow-up question? So, like would it be ever? Well, just for example, in the Lawrence swamp area that as you know, I'm sure you know this, it's just absolutely packed with all

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sorts of birds and burers. So, the burers come constantly every day with their binoculars and their cameras and um and so was that. Yes, exactly. I I knew you were. So is it in would it be

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like would it be possible to say that hunting of deer you know that not allow hunting of like ducks and and birds in a particular area but allow the deer or is that not a possibility? >> Well, that's a that's a possibility. Um

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I don't know that it would be fair. Um, >> you know, uh, I think as long as folks know that there are other people out there, I think that's the important part. No, I'm worried about the birds. Not not so much the I mean I am worried about

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the people getting hurt, but I'm I'm wondering >> shoot other than the other than uh ducks, geese, feeasant, uh woodcock, and uh uh grouse if there's one there

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and some feeasant that are left over. >> Right. I I'm just personally worried about >> the birders wa watch. I mean, those are not game birds, >> right? Well, they look at wood wood Okay. All right. Okay. Thanks.

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That's enough of an answer. Thank you very much. >> So, when people hunt, they're going to be hunting the uh the game birds. They're not going to be uh hunting uh hunting the birds that folks typically watch. >> Okay. Yeah, I got I love I love to see

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woodcock and I watch them and so on. But uh yeah, I mean uh the song birds are all protected. All migratory birds uh that are not migratory game birds that I mentioned before. Uh they're all protected. Every single one of them. Um

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that includes uh that includes uh hawks and owls and eagles and uh song birds etc. Um, if you can think of any bird other than um the the the Galanatius family uh like the uh pheasant turkey

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and um uh and uh and um partridge uh the the only other birds that are protected that are not protected are um

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uh house sparrows, starings, and um pigeons. >> Okay. >> Everything else is is all protected by the federal government. >> And >> thank you. >> Any uh Bruce, your hand was up for a little while.

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>> No. >> So, um those are the properties uh that uh the town um recommended to consider for hunting. Does anyone have a problem with opening any of those properties other than some concern about I mean

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Sarah, you did voice your concern. I'm sorry. I don't mean to um I'm not trying to sideline it. >> Oops. >> Sarah, >> sorry. I I maybe I'm the only one. I I there are some that I have more concerns

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with than others. Not that I like I said I don't understand you know I'm not the hunting person. I would have more I think I made a list so I would have more cons. So Kestrel even though I know that's part of um that Sweet Alice is adjacent to I understand the rationale

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that it's adjacent to the um you know the the mountain and that's all open to hunting. I do think Kestrel I mean it is pretty heavily traveled and people are learning more and more about it and the trail system

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is it becomes it's very well marked um the one that goes all the way around the pond and it you know there's a trail that gets to that thing from that. So, um, you know, again, I I do worry a little more about areas that are heavily used

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by by people. It just I just do. So, um, so Kestrel and like I said, the Lawrence one and and maybe the um, uh, the Southeast Street one and

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I don't know the Kushman property, but but some of them that are that have more that are sort of smaller and more isolated and that are going to have people walking on trails, I'd be more personally the ones that are surrounded by other land that is hunting already

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that abuts the you know all all of that land that's sort of surrounded by other land or abuts already hunted land seems like fine personally to me I I just am more concerned about the areas with trails and more people particularly

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if it's isolated >> thanks Carol >> um I was just thinking that regarding the property around Crestrol that it would be important to get their input. I think that would be a good neighbor

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thing to do. And you're right that, you know, there's a lot of people there and people I've seen people there that are just like they've never been there before and you know they're they're they're not so sure what's what. And I do understand that hunters don't go

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around places where there are lots of pl people. Anyway, I get that. Thank thanks Carol. Um I'll just I'm curious about their input as well. I'm also uh curious uh because for some

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reason I had thought that their properties are meant to uh remain open to hunting though I do see the importance of uh keeping uh folks around the uh pond and all uh safe. Anyway, Bruce,

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>> um I have a process question. Um is it correct, my assumption, my working assumption that what we're doing here is deciding what to send on to a public hearing? That we are not making a final decision about any of these properties. We're simply saying this is the list.

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We're going to have a public hearing after which we then make a final decision. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you, >> Dave. Yeah, thanks Andre. One couple things to

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clarify. One is um I want to be crystal clear that um you know Kestrel only owns two about 2.3 acres 2.4 acres around their house. So everything else including the pond, the trail that is all town conservation area under the

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care custody and control of the conservation commission. So there's kind of a mis sometimes a misunderstanding because Kestrel lives there that it's their property. So everything at Sweet Alice from the Sweet Alice parking lot

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south up to the range and including the pond is all town of Ammerstland. They just own that little cutout along their along their around their house. I do believe it would be good as some of you have mentioned to get their feedback. One thing that's occurred to me

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throughout this conversation and in my talks with um with uh with Aaron as we've gone through this is you know how and Bruce is absolutely right. We go to the public hearing um we get input from the public hearing and then you come back you deliberate maybe you'll change

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some things you'll go ah maybe we should tweak that based on feedback etc etc and then you take a vote on the following areas. Um, but one thing that occurred to me is based on the maps that Aaron uh produced, we are and and your decisions and the the feedback we get, we're going

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to have to create an online um map showing what areas are are that you decide are huntable, what areas are not. So, there'll be a list, there'll be a map. I know. Um, and one thing that occurred to me as we were talking about

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the the Plumbrook Pond near Kestrel's small property is Kanti, the Kanti refuge over in Hadley, if you've been to the extensive boardwalk and and whatnot over at Kanti, Kanti has a wonderful map. I might have shared it and we can put it in your packet. It shows the

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Kanti holdings in Hadley and then it has what I would call an overlay and the overlay covers the trail system at Kanti, right? Where you get out of your car and you do the walk around the boardwalk and all of that. That area is

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shown as an overlay. Non-hunting. The rest of the KI holdings >> Oh, cool. >> are huntable. I I believe I haven't looked at that map in a few months, but I remember getting it and being very impressed with it. So we might have to produce something like that to

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demarcate, you know, if uh or to to suggest and en encourage those hunters who, you know, who are going out on Richie or Lyman or even Sweet Alice to give them a sense that the back portion of Sweet Alice is huntable, but the area

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around the Kestrel um the Kestrel office is not. So, you know, there are ways that we can communicate this, I think, but um you know, we've got a little more work to do on this. And once >> once we've had the hearing and you do your work and and vote, then we can

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figure out how do we communicate this in the best way online, but also at the trail heads, how do I on those brand new kiosk with brand new signs, how do we create a nice map and and some signage that says, "Hey, you can hunt Richie if you decide that." But you're really it's

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really the back portion of Richie. We you shouldn't really be hunting up near the houses along Bay Road. And Andre would say hunters should know that anyway, >> right? >> Yeah, that's good. >> Well, I'm I'm just giving a little flavor where my mind is going like couple steps down the road. And just on

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that same thing uh on that same exact uh uh uh phrase you had there Dave, um just so everyone knows here, all hunters have to uh who hunt in Massachusetts legally have to uh go

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through a uh hunter education course. Um and in order to uh go through the hunter education course, one of the things that they uh learn is the laws. And they also they make sure to teach folks that look, you know, if you're going to go hunt in a certain place,

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make sure you know the land first uh before you uh get out there and start to hunt it. Um, of course, any uh deer hunter who uh and now I'm talking deer uh who wants to be successful is going

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to have had a look at the properties that they're going to hunt before they hunt it um for the most part. But uh anyway, just a little back uh background. Bruce, >> so very quickly um Dave, can you briefly

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characterize the overlay between the town properties and the Kestrel land trust properties and in particular the ones that I think there's some we do joint there's a joint venture between the town and Kestrel.

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I'll I'll be brief, Bruce. Um, we don't have a joint venture of management. We don't have any formal joint management agreement, >> Erin. >> I don't know. I just some signs around

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where it says Castro Land Trust and then the town. >> Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, so that's just acknowledging um you know Kestrel has been a partner with the town on the acquisition and preservation of both conservation land, wershed protection land and APRs for 60 years. That's

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really just our attempt to acknowledge that they are a a partner in the preservation of those lands. We don't co-manage any of those lands with Kestrel. >> Okay, that's that was my question. And Kestrel, as far as I know, Aaron, we just finished the open or the draft of

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the open space plan is really close. As far as I know, Kestrel only owns they own a parcel where their office is and then they own a very small parcel off of East Pleasant Street uh near Strong Street,

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but they don't have any other holdings in Ammerst. Unless I'm missing something, Erin. Well, so they they own uh the property ab budding Amethyst Brook in Pelum right on the town line or is it it might be in Ammerst, but it's right on the town line. >> It's it's over the town. I don't think

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it's in >> That's fine. I just I just was looking for the context. >> And then the small piece >> Mount Borius. >> Yeah, Mount Borius they just acquired. And then there's also a a small piece that they own um that's south of um

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Katherine Cole or um believe it's Catherine >> little teeny properties >> and then across from Eastman Brook they own a property as well. >> Thank you. That's enough >> other questions. So we'll get the Ki map for you too. Uh

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we'll put that in your packet. I think that gives you an interesting it's an interesting uh >> uh prototype of what we could do, I think. >> All right, great. So, uh now we've been through the whole uh the whole list. Um

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and we've heard some uh we've heard some reservations. We've heard uh nothing on a whole bunch of them. Um which not sure exactly what that means, but uh here we are. We've gone through all these uh

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all the properties. Um and I think uh I think uh Bruce's uh point is is important to take into account as well is that uh this isn't like an end all uh to uh you know if we

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were to whatever we were to uh decide on um today is something that we're going to be bringing up for approval. uh uh or bringing up to the town's folks. So

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anyway, um Bruce, >> I I want to propose to the staff that they seek to have this public hearing after Labor Day. I think it would be unfair to try to have it during it during the summer when a lot of people

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are not either here or focused on this kind of stuff. I think that's complet I think it's a great suggestion Bruce if I could Andre and it's completely up to you when when you hold that but it historically we have not held important

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uh public hearings during the summer months during July and August because a lot of people are away and vacationing and >> more people back in September to participate. >> Yep. I'm not uh I'm not in a in a hurry

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one way or another, but uh we should probably look to get it done. Um so if uh if that's Dave, given that you that this is how it's been done for big public hearings, I don't know if this is supposed to be a

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big public hearing either anyway at this point, but it doesn't matter to me. Um Darren, >> I know um it feels like September is a long way off, but for me planning ahead um I'm already planning into August. So

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um I know the second meeting in September is the 9th. The um the 4th is the 23rd. I don't know if we want to like tentatively try to um pencil in. I'm sorry, the 23rd, 9th and 23rd. Um I don't know if

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we want to tentatively um try to target one of those meetings and we can revisit that, but I can just put a pencil it in on my calendar. >> Yeah, you go ahead. But we do need to uh you know, I think before that we're going to need to vote on on what we're

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going to propose. Mhm. >> I know. I know. I'm saying stuff that's logical obviously uh given what but we're going to have to vote on uh what what we're going to propose um and uh get that to the

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attorney for the attorney to take a look at as well. So, um go ahead and pencil one of those in. And I think uh we should plan probably for the next for uh to have um this all

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figured out and moving uh to the attorney uh at the end of next meeting is that uh so what do we have to do still? One of the things we have to do is is uh uh and we've already determined

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that we are going to uh keep something open. So we have to determine one do we open it according to state law or do we want to restrict uh uh restrict further in certain areas. Uh Sarah you

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you made mention of something and I had a couple ideas that we'll I'll float some other day or next time. Right. Um, so do uh we're uh we're going to keep it open. Um with so where are we going to

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keep it open? What are the uh uh laws that we're going to apply? Are we going to use just state laws or some of ours uh to make it more restrictive? And then uh finally, what time of the year are we going to allow it to be open? So I had

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mentioned last uh last meeting that a uh time period uh during which uh you know in the for a month in the uh spring and then during the uh hunting

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season October through uh uh January or something like that. So anyway, those are the three things that we need to determine as well as uh this list of uh

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of uh lands that we uh want to uh remain open. Anything else? Uh Bruce has a hand up. You have Oh, you're you're muted. Sorry. My image is that we've done enough work

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and I'm asking you Erin, I'm not asserting it. Um, are we at a place where you could take what we've done, craft it into this is the final uh for going to the public hearing version,

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send it out to us a week ahead of time, and then everyone who has any last final comments has to make them. and then we we vote on this is what we're sending rather than I just I feel like we've gone over so

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many parts of this often enough now that we've we've done enough to have a draft that could go to the attorney. Is that your working assumption also? >> Yeah. So, where I'm at is um I still

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need to go through and basically edit the body of the the full document that the commission has edited. Um get that into a clean version. I'll keep a markedup version and a clean version. Have the outstanding questions highlighted on there. And then I think

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with what we have so far, I could put together sort of a an outline, a framework for hunting um to just have the commission review and maybe do just some last minute um checks of what do people think about

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this or what do people think about that to just streamline it and clean it up a little bit. Um, I think it would probably be a little tight to have that ready for the 29th, but I think if if we could aim maybe for the August 12 August

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12th meeting possibly for that, it might give me more time to assemble all those pieces to have something more cohesive to share. >> And then I have a an an additional question and this may be a Dave budget

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question. Is there any reason why we should seek to have an outside copy editor and can we could we afford to have an outside copy editor? >> Um what do you mean by that?

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>> I mean that there's lot been lots of people who've written things first that there's a lot of language differences. I'm talking about the the entire document and someone who has a fresh eye and looks at it and says, "Well, it says

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this in one place and it says it completely the opposite in a different place." And there's I mean, I did a little bit of copy editing to the um open space and recreation plan. And I am I'm okay. I'm not a professional, but I

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found lots of things that you you just that are inconsistencies about punctuation and spacing and font sizes and all sorts of stuff. And the question is how much does that matter? And if it does matter, then someone who

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is a professional doing it can catch all that in ways that and and do we do any of us have the time to go do that, which I don't. Erin, I don't know that Erin does. >> I think the short Let me answer your

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questions, Ruth. One, there is there's really no budget for outside >> story >> and I and I I think having now Erin is is a very good writer, a very good um you know, very good at pulling these together. But then it does go through

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town attorney and so the town attorney is going to catch and we are paying for every hour every minute of the town attorney to go through this and they will go through it beginning to end based on you know the document that you have voted and drafted and Aaron has put

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in a a format that that uh meets your your your guidelines and then you know that's probably as good as it's going to yet. Um, yeah, >> maybe it's as good as it needs to get, too. I wasn't asserting that it needed to be more than that. I was just asking.

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>> Yeah, I think that's going to be fine. >> Okay. Thank you, Erin. Uh, your hand's still up. Were you going to comment on this topic? >> Um, well, I'm just getting concerned about the time because we're pushing 8:40 and, um, I think there's people in

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the waiting room who, you know, are here for other items. >> Yeah, we're done with this. uh this topic after Carol says what she's gonna or asks what she's going to ask. Go ahead, Carol. Thanks for your patience. >> Sure. Um

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a while ago we discussed camping and I had some questions about the um decision that got made and it is in the drafted bylaws. And when I brought it up, I think maybe with you or with Aaron, um I

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was told, well, the staff is going to revisit some of that and make their comments. So, um I'm just wondering when that is that still part of the the plan

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to have staff input that might change some of our earlier >> deliberations or >> Well, their input would advise us. Um >> yeah, I know >> but uh yeah, Dave's got his hand up and I think he's ready to answer. >> Yes, it is part of the plan. I'll be

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really quick. Yes, it is part of the plan, Carol. Good question. Erin and I talked about it just the other day. Um, yeah, we we still may have a difference of opinion on something like can we actually manage camping? Um, I believe the commission, the other one that comes

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to mind quickly is um hours of operation. We still believe conservation areas should be open uh uh dawn to dusk and not 24 hours a day. So, we will come back before the public hearing with some of our recommendations on some of those items.

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>> Okay. So before there is this final document that we put out, there will be a f more deliberation to include that. That's all. Right. >> Yeah. I mean, I think what uh I think this goes this is going to go to the

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town's attorney and then it's going to come back to us and we're going to finish it. >> Okay. Would that be nice? >> Some hard words to say, right? All right. Thank you. Um so, uh that let's so we're gonna uh I

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think Erin, um I'd like to talk to you uh I'd like to work with you on this a little bit um as we move forward and uh uh next time that we meet, I'd like uh for us to have uh some modular package

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type thing to go to put together uh that we're all going to agree on. or that we'll we'll mostly agree on so that we can move it forward from there. Um, you're you're muted, Erin. >> Let's take touch base on when that makes

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sense, Andre, because I'm just not sure like before the next meeting. I think it's going to be challenging for me with all the other um irons in the fire. >> I have an idea of what I uh I can kind of picture what uh what I'd like to do. I think um we can you know one thing is

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is hunting uh you know what what what's the hunting uh going to be allowed? Hunting is allowed on Ammeris conservation land in accordance with state law or in uh accordance with state

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law except that this trail blah blah blah. Right. And then um then the next thing in the line for us to vote on would be the the dates within which uh

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it can be hunted uh the hunting can be can take place. And then I think if we have that and the properties all put together then it's all uh those are the variables. So we can talk offline about it but I I now that we've uh we're talking a little bit I wanted the the

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rest of us to kind of have an idea of what uh you know the kind of like the pieces that that are movable and not in this. Not very good explaining it but okay. So we'll get uh we'll move on to that.

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Uh uh we'll move back to that next um next meeting. And um we're uh looking to why don't we uh put off for now the conservation commission correspondence protocol and the uh budget and let's

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move to the uh other other business. Um, who's waiting in the uh room for us in the uh attendees for us? >> We have uh Kristen Mcdana from um SWCA

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who's here on behalf of UMass for the request for certificate of compliance at North Village Drive. >> All right, let's start there then. So, this is for a uh a culvert up on in North Village.

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Um, and it's a request for a certificate of compliance and uh it's got to do with UMass. Kristen is here. >> Hi, >> welcome. and uh please uh give us your name and uh

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who you're with. >> Hi, I'm Kristen Mcdana. Um professional uh wetland scientist, certified wildlife biologist representing the University of Massachusetts. Um and forgive me for not having the file number on the tip of my fingers,

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but this is >> 089-0717. >> Thank you, Andre. Um, so this is for North Village Drive. I I know we're running a little bit low on time, so I'll spare the commission all the background since we had multiple sitewalks and I know the commission's

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familiar with the project. Um, we're here representing UMass just to request a certificate of compliance. The work was completed a few years ago. Um the um the there were 2 years of post

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construction um compliance required with the order of conditions to ensure that the post construction restoration was successful. and we have completed those two years of post construction compliance reports

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demonstrating that the uh restoration was successful and is in compliance with the performance standards under the wetland protection act and the bylaw. Um all work was originally completed in compliance with the approved plans and the order of conditions. We did submit

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an asbuilt that was stamped by um I forget if it was stamped by the surveyors or the engineers. Erin, you can correct me if if I'm mixed up about that. The site is obviously completely stabilized because it was completed two

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years ago. Um all of the remaining erosion controls have been removed. There were a couple pieces of the photo um degradable erosion controls still remaining, but I actually stayed for about an hour after our last sitewalk

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and pulled all that up. Um there are no adverse impacts that I was able to document over the two years of post construction monitoring as a result of the project. Um and and just as a reminder that the

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the purpose of the covert replacement was to um satisfy the commission's original request and to meet the current Massachusetts Dream Crossing standards. So, I'll be here to answer any questions if any commissioners have questions. >> I'm sorry, Kristen. You said the purpose

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of the uh Can you say that again? The purpose of the uh uh covert was to satisfy the commission's uh requests. >> Yes. Yes. >> What do you mean by that?

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>> So, um just All right. So, just rewind. So, back up. Um Andre, in case you don't remember. So, the original project was um to install conduit, underground conduit along a gravel road, North

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Village Drive to service the North Village Apartments from the uh central heating plant on UMass campus. And when the contractors were doing that, they were doing directional boring underneath the 60-in culvert, the really big

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culvert in Hadley, but they decided that they couldn't go underneath the the 10-in culvert, the one that was replaced in Ammerst, because it was a clay culvert, and it was so fragile. So, they did a replacement in kind without contacting the commission. That was a

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violation. The commission asked for that to be fixed. to meet the screening standards. >> Kristen, excuse my uh interruption. That's what I wanted to clarify. Um it's not because we asked you to do it. It's

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because the the uh uh the original because originally there was a violation, >> right? The contractors didn't notify anybody. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. >> All right, Aaron. Uh for the town's uh uh perspective,

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thank you, Kristen. >> Yes. So, um, uh, I'm going to do my best. I'm very tired, so I'm going to do my best to, uh, be succinct here. Um, so Kristen, and just to refresh, when you gave your

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presentation, I know there was some discussion about the, um, the plastic polyropylene. Did you say you spent time pulling that up? >> I did. Yeah. Around for about an hour. I made sure I pulled it all up. The augur was helpful. >> Okay. All right. So the the polyropylene

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I think was one of the commission's um concerns because they had used this plasticbased um uh netting which is was not was basic the commission doesn't allow us to do that um to use that material on

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projects. So that was one of the things that we had identified. Um so there was some questions about blow through the culvert. I did reach out to Mark Stinson at D just to ask about, you know, uh what he recommended in terms of should

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we wait and verify that that this culvert is actually able to convey water since none of us at least have captured photos of it. I I know Kristen says she's seen it flowing, but we haven't visually captured photos of it flowing. um is that a a a rationale for

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withholding the the um certificate? And he said that we have to really look closely at the order to make sure that they've complied with the with the with the plan design and with the conditions of the order. And so withholding it for the sake of the stream not flowing. Um

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he didn't think we really had um the ability regul from a regulatory perspective to do that. Um, I did after I spoke with him just go through the order kind of with a little bit more of a fine tooth comb just to make sure that all of the eyes were dotted and te's

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were crossed particularly because this was a enforcement case and there was some very specific conditions the commission outlined. So, one of the conditions was um signage shall be installed at visible

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intervals along the limit of the mitigation areas. And then we provided a sample sign. Um so they they did provide two signs along the road um which are uh on site. the

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whe uh whether that the commission interprets those two signs to adequately um provide a a visual boundary around the entire mitigation area is really up to the commission and I'd be happy to pull up a map that kind of shows based

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on the asbuilt where those mitigation areas are. Um so that's one of the questions. The other question was um the asbuilt shall include riverfront area and the wetland mitigation areas which shall be conspicuously labeled. Now

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there I believe there is like a conspicuous hatching. So if the commission is comfortable that that hatching um adequately um uh delineates the limit of the mitigation area, I think that that is is fine from a staff

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perspective. Um the other item in the order was and there are some ongoing conditions right so if we issue an order of condition or a certificate of compliance there are

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ongoing there are several ongoing conditions that we would have to also include in here. Um but there there was a post construction requirement from a letter or that was a letter from a registered professional engineer certifying compliance with the order of

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conditions and detailing any deviations. So um uh there was a an asbuilt provided there wasn't a letter and I know Kristen was working on trying to get us one. Um, so those are sort of the items and I'd be

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happy to pull up the survey andor the photos quickly so you guys can take a quick look and see what your thoughts are if that's helpful. >> Please do. >> Okay, just bear with me a second because I've got to track them down. >> So, while you're doing that, um,

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uh, I was pretty concerned. I was quite concerned about the u uh plastic um netting around the uh uh around the um I don't know what you what you would

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call it but uh with the plastic netting and I mentioned that to uh to Kristen during the uh during our uh site visit. Now, when uh the pictures that uh you took, Aaron, um I saw some of that

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netting still there and um it was all uh a lot of that looked like it was uh all grown over. Um Kristen, you mentioned that um you cleaned it. Did you pick all of the

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stuff up that was there or uh >> Yep, >> you did? I did, but I have a couple comments on that, Andre. One, um I I I love that the commission brought this up and um I brought that up to my

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commission. I'm in Greenfield and I think that's a really important thing to include in orders, but that wasn't actually included in this particular order. That wasn't included until the UMass Pavilion order of conditions. This predates the pavilion. So, that wasn't

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actually included in this order, but I I totally agree with you and I'm completely on board and like I said, I'm I'm folding that into, you know, future projects that I'm working on as well. So, I did I did try to pick up as much as that I could get. >> So, so, right, I mean, but uh you can't

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leave a bunch of stuff that's not going to be degradable uh on the ground there. So I think that the orders required biodegradable erosion controls was the condition and photogradable was a condition that was

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incorporated into orders that the Amoris Commission was folding in a couple years later. Um but like I said, I completely agree with that and you know the contractors said they were going to pick it all up and they didn't

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really pick it all up. So, I did spend about an hour or so trying to get whatever remnants that I could find. >> Mhm. Okay. Thank you, Bruce. >> And just so we're clear, there were two

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different site visits cuz um Carol and I and Aaron went out there within the last month and a half. And that may be the one where Kristen's commenting that after we left >> because there was there was some little stuff still there. And

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I just want to be clear, there were two different visits. And >> you're right. I forgot. We went in April and we went in June of this year. Thank you, Bruce. Yeah, you're right. I forgot about that. >> So, just uh to sorry to jump in. I can't

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raise my hand when I'm presenting. Uh but just for the sake of having a visual, this is the asbuilt. Um, and what I with the conspicuously um labeled um mitigation area, I would

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interpret these hatchings on the plan to represent the area where mitigation um was installed as part of the order of conditions. Um the the red is just a

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really sloppy uh line approximate town line. So the northern part of this is Amoris, the southern part of this is Hadley. And then the red and these are very approximate but just showing where the two signs are located um

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proximal to the mitigation area as to whether the commission's good with um those items. uh satisfying the conditions in the order. >> Bruce, your hands up. Um

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>> yeah, sorry. >> Yeah. Uh is the I mean I could I think it could use another sign the a little further uh a little further south like on the border there and then uh I don't know about the other side, but um does

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anybody else have uh thoughts on this? Jason. >> Yeah, Andrea is saying the same thing. There's nothing on the other side and one close to the town border. >> Uh, what do you what do you think of that, Kristen? >> I actually was just about to pull up the

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uh asbuilt because I think that those should be shown on the asbuilt plan. >> Uh, what do you think about putting two more signs up there, Kristen? Well, I know that the purpose of the sign, so this was my original thought when I first saw the signs installed. I thought

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it's great that they're along North Village Road. Um, because it's really important for the operation and maintenance crew to know not to do any vegetation management over there, even roadside vegetation management. And I've

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actually been monitoring that over the last three years since I've been going out there, and they've been great. And I think those signs are really helpful for that. >> So, uh, can you make it quick and just, uh, uh, tell me what you think about two more signs?

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>> I mean, I know usually, so when we're doing like say a conservation restriction or a deed in fee or some kind of conservation parcel, we normally have them on every vertex. So every, you know, say you've got, you know, like a rectangle, there would be four, right,

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on each corner. But this I don't know that we need them on the other side which so on the west side is the power line right of way and they're not going to be encroaching on the mitigation. So I I guess I take that back to you guys.

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>> Could I just uh try to jump in for a second? I think they meant a sign on this side Kristen on the other side of the road. >> Okay. >> And I think >> we're gonna we're just going to go ahead and uh and require that. >> Okay. Gotcha. I was thinking the other the other side of the mitigation on the

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right ofway side which is further to the west. Okay, gotcha. That makes sense. >> Well, and then the other point I was going to make and commissioners, you know, I guess just to clarify, are you thinking a sign I mean I know this is Hadley and and right now Hadley doesn't have an agent and we you know

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Hadley had different requirements. There was work done in Hadley as well, but are you thinking along this to designate this entire area because there this was a whole stream system where work was done or are you just thinking on town line like this and that might be helpful to

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>> I was thinking we don't have the authority to request or require it to be put on. >> Okay. >> I will say there is one in Hadley on there. >> Yeah, there is one on but it's again it's on the west side of North Village. So there's not I don't think there's anything on the east side of North

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Village Drive. So >> Okay. >> So if Hadley would like us to place one would like I mean Hadley can do whatever they want, but I think for Ammerst I would like to see it uh up to the town line.

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And so anyway, one more uh near the town line and one on the other side uh so that uh anyone working on either side of that culvert knows not to uh um not to go down there and cut stuff.

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>> So the other clarifications would be do you think that the um mitigation area is adequately conspicuously labeled and marked on this plan? Uh maybe you can show me where it says that it's mitigation area.

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>> So it's it's not actually labeled as mitigation area. It's just identified with this hatching I believe is the the only real indicator. >> So what would it need to what would need to be done in order for it to be marked uh properly? Is that marked? I I don't

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Uh maybe a label that says or a a key to this plan that identifies it as the mitigation area. Let me just double check that that's not on here. >> Yeah, I mean I think the solution would be fairly easy uh with either Yeah. with a label or a key. I mean uh if that's

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done, that's a really easy thing to do. >> Just double check here. >> I don't see it in the >> I don't see it in the key. Um >> and then >> okay and then the other thing was um the statement from the engineer which I

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think Kristen is working on. So >> yes um yeah we we reached out to the engineers today and they said that they would have that in quote short order but we didn't receive it by 7 and now it's 9:00. So I think that it's safe to say we're

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probably not going to receive that tonight. So, I don't know if that will hold up the commission's ability to issue a decision or not. Um, because we do have the asbuilts and there were noations. >> Thank you, Sarah.

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>> I just um I'm sorry that Erin, you were told what you were told by Mass D, but is there not some some does somebody not have evidence that it actually works and that the water flows? Is that what I heard correctly that nobody's seen any

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evidence that the water actually flows where it's supposed to or did I misunderstand? >> I haven't seen evidence. Um I don't think commissioners have seen evidence. I don't think we've seen any photos of it flowing. I know Kristen has and through conversations has indicated that

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she's seen it um flowing, but that we don't have any photos of it flowing. >> Can you provide those Kristen just so that we have that because that's sort of the whole point. Yeah, I think the fact that we are we've been in a drought for two years, we just don't have it. But I

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can tell you that I did share a photo link, a photo file link today with the commission that does show that the rocks in the culvert are stained with red, which indicates that there is hydrarology. So that there's iron

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oxidation happening, which means there's a high water table. And just keep in mind, we went from a 10-in culvert to a box culvert. This is we went from a hose to like you can walk through this culvert now. It's huge. So, it's not

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going to flow the same as it used to. It's going to look different, but there is hydraology. And interestingly, I actually pulled up the most recent USGS topographic map, and that map shows that that stream is actually intermittent.

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So, not worth getting into that whole can of worms, but you know, I can >> You're confident it works. Basically, >> I mean, I'm not an engineer. I'm just a dumb biologist, but the engineers certified it and I trust the engineers.

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Put it that way. If the elevations are right, >> okay, >> I trust them. >> Thanks, >> Erin. So, um, it just seems like we've got a couple a couple outstanding items and I know we have another person waiting in the waiting room for another

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item. We have a bunch of other business. So, I just wanted to put that out there. >> Yep. Um, I don't I don't think I want to uh I don't think uh I want to uh issue a certificate right now. Um I I want to make sure that we have our

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pending um pending items taken care of and then we'll do that and I think it'll be uh pretty straightforward once uh once those uh pending items are back. So we're looking for um the statement by the uh

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by the engineer and the uh extra signs the two extra signs. Erin, anything else? One more thing. Um, the survey adjusted to conspicuously label the mitigation area which will

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likely be recorded with the certificate and referenced on the certificate as well as an attachment. >> Guess that ought to be fairly straightforward, right? >> Sorry, I was I'm taking make sure the >> the just a key you just the legend the

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legend. Okay. So the adjusted >> to show the legend shows the mitigation area. Correct. >> Yeah. Just label the mitigation areas or or you know >> show Yeah. Show that the cross-hatched area is the mitigation areas.

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>> Gotcha. Okay. And so that will be recorded with the RCOC. >> Okay, that sounds good. >> So we'll move on to uh Okay. Thank you, Kristen. >> Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thanks everybody. Have a good night. Bye. >> All right. So, Greenfield Savings Bank

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or do we have uh >> um So, no one's here for Greenfield Savings Bank and um I do have somebody here for um the um request for um the amended order of conditions. So,

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I don't know if you want to deal with the amended order while we have a bunch of people in the room waiting for that. >> Let's do that. >> Okay. So, I'm gonna add Lawrence. >> Tristan's still on. >> Yeah. And I can't once I promote someone

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to panelist, I can't remove them. So, um that's the only challenge. >> Sorry, I'll log off. Bye. Hi. >> Is someone other than Lawrence uh Cook going to be on for this? >> I don't believe so. >> Okay, Lawrence, thank uh thanks for

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joining us. Welcome. Um, uh, >> thank you. First, first of all, can I just apologize for joining so late? I had to rush to emergency care. My daughter got hit with the softball at practice tonight, so I had to go and deal with seeing if she needed an X-ray. So, apologies for for not joining

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earlier. >> Hope she's all right. >> Yep. >> All right. Go ahead then. Uh, why don't you uh tell us what your uh what your um administrative changes? >> Yeah. So uh the uh original plans that were submitted as part of the NOI had a

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particular type of containment um which was uh almost like a vault um with a that kind of went around the uh the transformer pad. Um the type that was specified was not available at the time uh that we were

429
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looking to purchase it during the construction. Um we uh sourced uh another standard um uh oil containment system from BCI um which has been uh extensively used for this and

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specifically for this purpose. Um it is a it's a system that allows for the free flow of rainwater but with the presence of any hydrocarbons which you'd get with the transformer oil. pol polymerizes the uh uh the the containment um and then uh doesn't allow

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anything to go through. Um it is a kind of one and done. So if there was a leak uh it would get fully replaced uh rather than the other one which would um which you just basically suck the oil out. This was uh this is one that would uh u

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you'd remove the stone the oil um and then you'd replace the liner and reinstall and reinstall. Um but it's uh by BCI. Um the engineer has approved it. We've had the LSP uh write a letter in support um of of its suitability for

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this process. Uh it uh I do apologize that this is a late change and it was installed without uh asking. We've um uh there was an administrative oversight on our part. Um so apologies for for bringing it late.

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>> Okay. Uh Lawrence, can you explain to uh so so what is it that uh we had there before that was uh supposed to come out before? >> So the the oil containment before was again a barrier system. Um but it has a

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um a vault area that you can you basically suck the oil out of. Um, but it it was a it was a hard-sided one that didn't allow anything to pass. It's effectively a trough that went

436
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around the uh a hard trough that went around the the pad. >> Uhhuh. And this uh the one that uh was put in instead of the one that uh we had requested, what's that got? I you so uh yeah just to clarify the the the the one

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that was in the plans was not of a type requested by the concom that the engineer specified uh as a response to a request for containment. Um uh so the one that that's there now uh has a similar lining to the one that was

438
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approved for the uh for the best system except for this one is uh rather than it being a a um uh a completely kind of sealed liner, it is a liner that is pvious except for in the presence of

439
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hydrocarbons it solidifies. >> Okay. All right. Thanks. Uh, Lawrence, um, Erin, could you, um, give us the town's perspective? Well, so um

440
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really the ask of the commission is to make a determination as to whether this is a minor administrative change that you feel comfortable making a simple vote to approve the adjustment from the

441
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original approved order of conditions to to the requested change or whether you're feeling that you need to um have a a new notice of intent or a um amended notice of intent. So amending the

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previous order of conditions to uh include this change. So it's really uh so and I included the guidance policy from D the whenever there's a change a change to an order of conditions it's got to be presented to the commission and the

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commission has to make the call. Is this a minor administrative change? Is this a significant enough change to the plan that it requires an amendment to the original order or is it not in keeping with the original order and requires a

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new order so that we we essentially have a path forward of how to adequately approve the work? Um, and I I believe Lawrence is asking for this to be a minor administrative change. um where he's just he's asking

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that the commission just re essentially review and approve this as a an off thereord or a out outside of a hearing approval of the change. >> Thanks. Curious about the let's turn to the

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public now uh and see if there's anyone in the public who has something has anything to say. I'm not seeing any hands right now. Okay, no one from the public has their hands up. There was a public comment

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that I uh saw regarding this um that might be uh worthy of considering. Um Bruce has his hand up. Bruce, why don't you go ahead? So actually I was going to read from part of that public comment and just get

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to make sure that I'm understanding that it's either correct or incorrect and if it's correct what this person is saying um what uh Lawrence thinks of it. So it says unfortunately the same containment system that has been placed around the transformers

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appears to have been used for the containment around the battery pads. This is confusing because there typically is no oil in lithium batteries and therefore no apparent need for a containment system designed to capture oil.

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>> Yeah. >> Yeah, please. >> Yeah. Responding to that, it is a completely different liner. Um I mean they're superficially the same. Uh they look like a black liner that goes around. So I can understand why the uh the public was confused, but it is a completely separate type of liner. The

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the one around the battery is a specifically impermeable um membrane that uh will will not let any chemicals or anything pass through it. Um there is a valve at one end to uh that is closed in the case of an emergency to prevent anything from from

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going out. The the the the liner that is around the transformer is this uh BCI um barrier boom system with the polymerized liner. It is a two two totally different products. The uh um I did provide the

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the cut sheets uh for for both so that you you can review it. Um so the cut sheet for the battery containment had a had a different cut uh was a different product. >> Same same manufacturer but different product. >> Thank you Bruce. more uh any

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>> Yeah, I just wanted to There was also a concern about how the plastic membrane would survive the intense heat generated if there was a lithium battery fire. >> Uh the we're not talking about the um

455
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the containment around the battery that is installed to the specifications and approved by the >> by the conservation commission. This is specifically the transformer containment. >> Okay. And my last question then is also have you discussed this change with the

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fire department? >> Uh I I haven't discussed the change with the fire department. It's um I I I could do um but it's it's not a it's not a fire protection device. It is a uh an oil containment. >> Okay. Thank you.

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So, there was also a question about um once the uh fire department starts putting water on it, uh will it be able to contain that or will it all run off uh into the uh into the Fort River?

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>> Yeah, it's it's not a um it it's it's for oil leaks rather than fires. Um so, it's it's not a question of um uh the fire department spraying anything with water. it is if there's a crack in the transformer and it leaks oil.

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>> Okay. Um >> in in in that respect, it's no different to the uh the one that was in the approved set of plans. >> Thanks, Lawrence. So, I do have a uh I have I have an issue with um with that

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change. Uh it's I don't I don't really think it's much of a minor uh change. I feel like it's a quite a big change to be made and then uh to be uh requested as a minor administrative change. Um

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with that said, um we I'm one of one of the uh full commission here. So, uh I'm going to uh go ahead and pass this on to uh Jason and hear what uh what other opinions are. Jason,

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>> so my I had a question about Lawrence. You mentioned that this this containment system is only for spills and leaks. What is in place in case of a fire around the >> There is there isn't anything in place in case of a fire? the the the there's no difference in the

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effectiven during a during a fire situation with the one that was approved and this one that neither of them are um uh um a fire once but uh >> no no I'm asking if there is a fire I

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yeah >> what what safeguards are in place that the amount of water that gets put onto these transformers is actually captured and doesn't just run off into the Fort Uh the uh as I said it neither neither the

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approved system or nor nor this revised system sort of contemplates uh sort of the an amount of water um that would be used in a fire. It is it is more for the leaks than for the uh >> No, I understand that point, Lawrence. I'm asking you what is there?

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>> There isn't there isn't anything there. There's not there's been nothing that uh >> so there's a fire at the transformers. There's no nothing other than this system which is meant for leaks. >> There's nothing to catch any water, filter any water or prevent water from

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flowing into the Fort River. No, >> that seems like an oversight uh potentially on our part, but on the engineering part, I don't know if anyone else agrees with that, but I don't

468
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I don't know if that's something we can revisit at this point. But I'm I'm a little confused how Zach got by us. >> Erin's got her hand up. Hi, Erin. >> Right. So, um

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there's a there's that's a very uh uh layered question, Jason. So, let's just say there was a fire. Um like saying there's a theoretical, right? There's a fire and it's burning for days and the fire so the the fire department their

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first move would be to probably not put water on it. But let's say they're concerned about um it spreading to the other batteries and they were just using the fire to try to cool it down. You're talking probably on the on the scale of like millions of gallons of water. And

471
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there really is no way to contain that volume of water. Um there is there's no system or structure that we could engineer that would actually protect uh that water from moving down into the

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Fort River at that point. Um, I I do recall though that when we were originally permitting this project that there were some >> I believe there were some trenches, some storm water trenches that were installed along the perimeter were supposed to be

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installed along the perimeter of the um of in this general area. And I don't know um and again these are basically infiltration trenches. So water goes in there, it's going straight to groundwater. But anything that spills is

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going straight to groundwater on this site. So, um it's it's not a perfect system and there's really no way to engineer a perfect system in that scenario, I don't think. >> The the other thing as well is with with a with a sort of transformer. Um the the

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materials is made is basically a copper winding surrounded with uh with metal and then what would be burning would be the oil. And I don't think you you you attack a um an oil fire with water.

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That one would probably they would use a um a foam of some description to to more than water on a on an oil fire. >> Good point, Lawrence. Thank you, Bruce.

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>> So, I'm just want to remind us that there's two different things. There's the transformer part and the battery part. >> And so, >> and is it correct, Lawrence, that the batteries, the lithium ion batteries have not been installed?

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>> No, they haven't yet. No, we we've uh they will be shortly though. the um uh we were waiting for the utility to provide orcs power to the site so that we could have a uh a separate power feed to run the um uh run all the life support systems. That that only got

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completed a couple of weeks ago. >> Okay. And then um but the battery containment structures have been built to receive those batteries. We've we've been out there and seen those. >> Yep. Yep. Those are full fully installed

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per the per the plans. Well, I I I tend to agree with Andre in part because I feel like it's a for the transformer side of it, it would be valuable to have the fire department's input. Now, it's

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possible that the fire department is waiting for our input. I don't know, but I' I'd feel more comfortable if I knew what the fire department said about this. >> Thanks, Chris. Yeah, I I I mean I'm I'm happy to uh to leers with uh um with the

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fire department ahead of the next meeting and uh and have them provide comment in terms of um whether it's a minor amendment or a a substantial change requiring public notice. Uh what I would say is that the we haven't changed the capacity of the containment.

483
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The the capacity is exactly the same. It it it's specifically designed for the amount of oil that's in this uh transformer. The transformer itself has FR3 oil. um which is not the mineral oil that transformers used to have. It's effectively vegetable oil. Um and uh

484
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yeah, I I think it's in terms of uh what we're proposing from what was approved, it it is a it isn't a a sort of major deviation. >> Thanks, Lawrence. Rachel, >> thanks Lawrence. Thanks for being here

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to answer questions. Um I've been reading both of the documents you submitted. the one uh last meeting and this meeting and I'm just trying to parse out what what's actually installed and then what's being reviewed. So the the previous

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submission had a letter from Tetratech that said that both products the one for the transformer and the one for the best was not available. Um >> no it it's only only the one for the transformer that was not available.

487
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>> Okay. So Tetto's letter is incorrect then with that statement they're both not available um because the the LSP's letter that we got this meeting >> says they only talk about the transformer.

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>> Yeah that's the that's the only thing we're asking for is the transformer. The uh the battery is is installed as permitted. >> Okay. And so were you able, for record, were you able to get this Seaman's XR5

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product installed that was approved by the LSP? >> Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thanks, Rachel. Um Dave, >> thanks. Andre, I was just going to

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mention a couple things. one. I think it would be great, Lawrence. I know you're going to be in town tomorrow if you could be in touch with the fire department to get the answer to that question that the commission is looking for more input from the fire department. Um um separate from this meeting tonight,

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um I'm actually meeting with fire department inspection services. Uh Aaron is going to join that meeting uh a few minutes late tomorrow morning, but we're meeting to kind of go over the whole project tomorrow. I know um I know that Lawrence is going to be in town tomorrow

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and then next week. Could you give a little update, Lawrence, just on battery delivery and next steps just so the commission understands where where the project goes from here. >> Yeah. So the the next steps are the uh the battery stack delivery.

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>> Be brief, Lawrence, please. >> Yeah. The the next steps are the battery stacks get delivered. Uh take a couple of days of delivery to get those craned into place. Uh then they're they are wired and electrically connected um so that they uh all of the life support systems uh are running. Uh and then the

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commissioning of the battery cells themselves uh will take uh four to four to six weeks um before we start uh charging and discharging. >> Thanks. All right, folks. Um

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All right. Does anybody uh does anybody here um think that uh it's more than uh minor administrative change? I'm going to lift my hand because I don't think it's a minor administrative change.

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I have I see two, three, four. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, uh let's just uh let's just take a vote, I think, at this point. Um, I see. So, Carol, do you think it's a minor

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administrative change? >> No. >> There. >> No. >> Rachel, I didn't hear you. Rachel, >> I said no. Sorry. Mute. >> Jason. Sorry, Jason.

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Um, no. Chris, >> no. >> Dina, >> no. >> I don't think so either. Lawrence, I think it's pretty clear. Do we need to take a vote on this? Uh, Erin, >> we just did.

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>> I couldn't hear you. Yeah, I know you're you're >> sorry about that. Um, you you don't need to take a formal vote. No, just so long as the applicant knows what their next step is. Um, so I guess my question is the commission doesn't think that it's a minor administrative change that's

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understood. Um, are you comfortable with Lawrence amending the um existing order of conditions um to accommodate the change? >> Lift your hand if you are. I'm comfortable with it. I I just think we

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need to get a good enough look at this and so on. Yes. >> Okay. So, Lawrence, uh, I think you have some some marching orders. >> Yeah. Uh, ju just to help me out, is there anything additional that you want to see when you're contemplating this? I mean,

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>> it would be good if you can provide us something in writing comparing the uh what what had originally been approved and what uh we have now. >> Okay. >> That'd be and obviously the fire department as well. >> Yes. that but I think that'd be uh that that'd be extremely helpful.

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>> Okay. >> Thanks for asking. >> Okay. Uh unless uh you have any questions, uh we'll see you in the next meeting. >> Uh I'm not sure if it'll be the next meeting because of the the timing for

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public notices. Um but I'll work with Erin on when that is. >> Sounds good. Well, you have three weeks this time. >> Okay. >> Not the following. >> All right. Thank you all. >> Thank you. Have a good night. Um

505
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All right. Well, I think we're uh we're all ready to uh to crash out. We There is the Greenfield Savings Bank um uh request for certificate of uh

506
02:23:05.840 --> 02:23:22.560
compliance. Um, do we want to tackle that, Aaron, or is that something we can uh >> Well, I think it's a it's a relatively very quick question, which is um in the folder I took pictures of the two wetland marker or the two rebar markers.

507
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Is the commission satisfied that those two rebar markers adequately um bound the as wetland rebar markers? Um the question is do you feel those two bounds

508
02:23:37.680 --> 02:23:54.000
are adequate? >> I don't. >> So would you be looking for um additional bounds like more bounds surrounding the wetland and or would you like to see those wetland marker toppers

509
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on top of the rebar as well? >> Yeah. Something big enough to be seen by uh by the people who are going to be uh working there. And if there's tall grass that needs to be mowed, um probably something that's not going to break these uh people people's uh uh blades

510
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while they're mowing it. Um >> Okay. So, toppers and maybe taller taller. >> Yep. I mean, that at a minimum uh rock, you know, stones or whatever, but I think we we did I think that's that's going to be fine. Rebar that's that's

511
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not going to be um hidden. >> Okay. And do you guys want to see more than two rebar markers? I mean, sort of surrounding the wetland in the work area is what I would presume you'd want to see. >> Be delineating it, right? Or surrounding it, protecting it. So, more than two.

512
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Yes. Okay. Enough that uh that it's obvious. >> Okay. >> And I'm the only one speaking, but anybody I see Jason's got his hand. Go ahead, Jason. >> Yeah. Um and also just not by rebar. You have to cap rebar. You can't just leave a piece of rebar sticking out like that,

513
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especially if it's hidden by plants. Um, it's I would prefer not rebar, but if that's the only thing that we've got to go with here, uh, much taller and capped and have a sign on it. >> Okay, that sounds good. I can pass that um, guidance along. Um, so the request

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for for extension of Sweet Alice can absolutely be tabled to the next meeting because we have plenty of time before that order expires. The only other thing was um the ARHS track um has reached 90% stability and so I'm at the point of

515
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allowing the applicant to remove the erosion controls and cease monitoring. So I just wanted to make sure I was keeping the commission in the loop because you guys are not going to see a monitoring report for that project um before the next meeting. So I just wanted to make sure you knew that. But

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that's that's fine to adjurnn from here. Anyone uh opposed to that? Nope. I see no hands. So, that should be uh that's fine. And you can notify them about that. Anything else? Uh any uh

517
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public comment that uh we could see. I still see uh four three attendees. Um if you have a public comment before we adjourn uh please let's hear from you now. Okay I don't

518
02:26:22.960 --> 02:26:45.359
see any um is there any topic uh that we could not have uh anticipated 48 hours ago or closer? No hands on that. And finally, anyone care to

519
02:26:45.359 --> 02:27:00.720
uh care to move to ajourn? >> I move >> to ajourn. >> I second. >> Easy. >> Sarah on the motion and Jason. Jason.

520
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>> Hi >> Rachel. >> Hi >> Carol. >> Hi >> Dina. >> Hi >> Bruce. >> Hi >> Sarah. >> Hi

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>> and I'm an eye. Thanks for a good meeting everyone. We'll see you in three weeks. >> Good night everybody. >> Good night everyone.