that I know that are in >> I'm >> I'm just seeing that Athena's not here right now, but the two things that I know that are in the packet are today's agenda and the suggested schedule of meetings. >> Yep, I can find them both. >> And I don't know whether she put the
report that I sent on um yesterday, Monday, to everyone. Um but I have that. I can share that. You don't have to find >> and I know that that is not in uh SharePoint, but I'm I'm going to um
>> almost website. >> I think lately things aren't going into SharePoint because the what we discovered along the way is the resident members don't seem to get access to it. So, >> so where are they going into the county?
going into the packet posted on the town website, you know, when you go to finance committee packet. >> I got it. >> Yes. >> But but maybe the schedule the only two items that I saw there on pro well the only two items she could put there was
the um agenda and the updated meeting schedule. So >> yeah, I'm on that page now. Uh and the only thing uh see yeah I have the meeting schedule unfortunately
it's the last time it was updated was January 21st. >> Okay. So I'll get that's not the one I sent her. Okay. Let me just open it up then. I'll open it up on my >> and the only thing in the packet is the committee agenda. >> Oh, she really I saw in there too. U
maybe she put the the updated meeting in last the meeting before. Anyway, um let me just pull it up. >> I also have a copy I think of your report, but maybe I have a copy of my feedback to you instead. >> Okay,
>> I I can I can pull this up. Just give me a second. >> You got it. >> Too many things open though right now. Sean didn't start the meeting, did he? >> Yeah, he did. >> He said he did. >> He did. Oh, if he did recording, >> then Okay,
>> we're all set to to start. You're right. Go ahead, Pack, Kathy. >> Okay. All right, then. I will struggle through trying to find that other document. >> I have the agenda. >> Okay. >> Why don't you call call the meeting to order?
>> I will. Good afternoon everyone. It's 1:00 and we've been getting ourselves organized in real time. I'm calling the Emirates Finance Committee meeting of March 3rd to order at 10:03
and I see we have a quorum of the members present although one counselor has told me she will not be able to join us and I don't see any resident members but I my first order of business is to make sure that everyone can hear and be
heard since we are conducting this meeting remotely. So I will call on you as I see you on the screen. Anna >> present. >> Kathy is present. Lynn >> present >> and Sam >> present. >> Ah and Tom Porter has just join us. Tom,
can you let us know? Terrific. >> I hear you. >> That's great. Uh so seeing that we have a quorum, the first item on the agenda before I have Lynn pull up the the longer agenda is public comments. So I want to make sure I don't forget that.
Um, and we have attendees, so we are open for public comments if anyone wishes to make comments at this point. >> And I can bring them in. Kathy, >> you can you your co-hosts on this? >> Okay. So, one hand is raised out of the
five people in attendance. Please bring uh the one person in. Did you do it? >> I thought so. >> And if if you didn't, I'm I'm I'm a I'm good at doing this. I'll just do it. >> No, I just did. >> Okay. So,
>> Maria, we think you you have joined us. So, if you unmute. >> Thank you, Maria Kapiki, South Ammerst. Um, I just uh wanted to say that uh I am very happy that you guys finally have on the agenda a discussion of the finances
of the library um building project. Um it I am kind of disappointed that there is nothing in the packet to have be able to review before your discussion today. Um,
this is a long time coming and I think it's really important that the finance committee do the find out what's happening with all of the borrowing. What are the terms? What's going on there? What's the cash flow analysis? What's going on with the contingency? There's a lot of unanswered questions,
uh, financial questions that I I think that you guys need to address. Um, finally, I just uh I don't want to take too much time so you can get to it, but I do want to remind you all uh some of you were on the um council at the time, some of you weren't. Um there was a
petition a couple of years ago done very casually over just a couple of months and over a thousand people in town signed this petition um expressing deep concern about the costs and the financial implications of the library
building project. Um and uh a third of those people that signed were people who had supported the project but no longer did. We're no longer talking about supporting a project or not supporting a project. This is now about knowing the
financial impacts that this project is having on uh the town. Um so I am grateful that you are going to be addressing this. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, Maria. Um,
so one thing I just want to Lynn, you should pull Can you pull up the agenda for today now? >> Um, yes, I can. I'm trying to >> Okay. I think I just found it so I can pull it up also. Would you like me I'll just open it.
>> I'm trying to remove How do I um Maria? >> I think you just want to move her to the audience. Just make sure you don't remove her from the meeting. >> I don't think >> I I change her back to an attendee. >> Thank you very much.
>> I I all I could see was removing her from the meeting and I didn't want to click that. Okay. I will be glad to pull up the agenda and I'm ready to do so. >> Okay. Please pull up the agenda. >> Hi. Hi. And I see Sam has his hand
raised and I this Go ahead. Uh I just wanted to confirm uh is the public comment uh part of the agenda over? >> Yeah, I I should say I'm sorry. >> Or are there other people who want to speak? >> I have I will close the cup. Thank you very much, Sam. There are no other hands
up. So we are closing the public comic period. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for doing that. So, so what I just wanted to point out in looking through this agenda and it may have been um not listed correctly, it was the potential agenda for the
March 17th meeting is the discussion of Jones Library. So, I didn't do the correct indent the way that is not on today's agenda. So, um I just and and I'll address some questions that I have put together, but this uh was uh I
formatted it in a way it was supposed to be on the agenda for March 17th. So, I apologize to everyone if people thought it was on the agenda for today. So today's agenda is I sent everyone a draft report on our discussion last
meeting on the financial orders because we have time for everyone to read it if they have any comments and I have some updated information from Shannon Bernaci on the extent to which the region has any um has any stabilization funds and
so I will report on that. Um we have the fourth item after this is after public comment under the charter provision 28C and actually it's A B C D we have we have a there's the council has the
authority to request information and it's delegated that authority to any committee to the extent the committee is asking for information um relevant to what it will be deliberating on. And so we can under that authority and I double
checked with the council president, we can ask questions of the school superintendent, the library director, and the town manager. And those would all be related to f financial impact kinds of questions. And so if anyone has
any to suggest today, and I have several, um, I've planned a discussion of that. I also want to review the budget calendar and I sent a revised calendar and Lynn Lynn was not sure it made it into the calendar but it would
it has a it might have been it was in the packet I think for last meeting and we didn't get to it. It was proposing specific dates in May that we would be meeting and potentially what we would be meeting on. And I noticed that in November we only had one meeting
scheduled and we need two if we're going to get the guidelines done. So I wanted to just go over that. Um and if we have time and this was on the last agenda Anna and we ran out of time last time it
was to uh talk about whether potential fall meetings with departments. If we don't have time today we'll move it to the next agenda. But all of that was supposed to be on today's agenda and I didn't do the indent on number eight. That is the agenda for the March 17th.
So is there any other um any other questions about the agenda that just got pulled up? And I'm sorry for the loose. >> Sam has his hand up. >> Yes, I see Sam. >> Uh thank you Kathy. So question uh
number eight, Jones Library project funding. If I understand correctly, you're indicating it's not on this agenda. >> That's correct. >> So if we have questions related to that, we should await the subsequent meeting when that'll be on there. Uh yes, but I
think what underneath this section number um four Sam, we can formulate some of those questions today so that um Sean when he comes in on this knows what we want to know about some of that. Sean
andor Sean plus the library director. So yes, we can we don't have to wait to formulate those questions. We can do that now and send them in advance. >> Kathy, can I clarify? >> Yes. Um, are I I I missed that for a second. Are um I'm prepared to give an
update on Jones Library. If if you're looking for one today, um but if you're not, then I can wait, but I am prepared to give an update on sort of the financing and the cash flow. Um so, I'll follow your lead, but
>> Okay. So, if you're prepared to do the update because of the way I listed it here, I had thought it would be next time that you might not. If you're prepared and we have time, we'll do that today. >> You know what? I looked at the agenda thinking it was on there, so I prepared, but I see that it's under the potential agenda for next time. So, totally up to
you, whatever you want to do. >> Okay. And and I think if if it's okay with everyone, we'll do it based on the timing. I I'm going to try to keep the meeting to no more than two hours as promised. Does Does that seem fine with everyone? >> Yeah. I also have to say I have a hard
stop at four. >> Okay. at week three >> at at three. So we we will stop at three and we'll see how if we get to the library project funding in any depth and then I have questions about it that I
had formulated under this earlier if we don't get them answered we can um continue to ask questions and get answers hopefully when we meet w next which is March 17th. So, I think we can pull this off the
screen. And Sean, thank you for telling me that not only did I misindented, but you came prepared and and Sean had seen and approved this agenda, so I didn't I um I didn't double check it. Lynn, >> do you want to have a preliminary
conversation about the um four towns meeting on the 14th prior to the council meeting on the 9th? Um it it's listed there on the agenda that way, Lynn. So yeah, it's what I'm worried about is we only have two hours
today. Um and so we'll see how fast we can get through the report. I I didn't ask people to send me any comments on the report that I sent yesterday, but I thought we could go quickly through it today and if there were only minor adjustments to it as as written, then I
can do a final edit of it and we can submit it to the council. I wanted to get make sure it gets on the council's agenda because the council is set up on the next council meeting to be talking about the financial orders that we just did. Um, so if that's all right with
everyone, um, I don't know what the best way to proceed is. I sent everyone a draft of the report yesterday, marked draft, and just for anyone who's new to find the finance committee. In the past, we've gotten far enough before the draft
so that we could just circulate the draft and I could incorporate comments, but I thought this time just making sure that I captured the discussion on the auditorium roof and the roads accurately enough um that that I thought it would
be worth making sure we discussed it today. So, why don't I just ask does anyone have any comments on the report? Um, and if they're minor and editorial, they can just send them to me and I'll incorporate them as of tomorrow and we
can show it on the screen if people didn't have time to read it. Sam, >> uh, my comment is that I thought you did a fantastic job of, uh, summarizing the discussion and, uh, I appreciate your efforts and generating it. Thank you.
>> Thanks, Sam. Anna, >> yeah, I was going to say you're you're putting G's reports to shame here. Um, this is an incredibly thorough uh incredibly thorough report and I I think it captured things um clearly. I'm I'm rereading it now for I read it quickly
this morning, but I'm going to reread it briefly now to make sure. But thank you, >> Lynn. >> Uh I'm fine with it. I've already given you my changes. Thank you. and you incorporated them. >> Okay. So then then I think and Shawn did
a very quick read where I flagged numbers that I wanted him to check that I wasn't sure about. And so you don't see any yellow shading now because Shawn already gave me the opioid settlement and and made sure if I had done any math that it was accurate. So I think we're
done with the report part. I did want to show you Shannon's responses. I sent her um let me just I need to share my screen. So, let me figure out how to do that. Zoom share.
And I believe this is it. Does this show up on everyone's screen? >> Yes. Um we had had uh during the council meeting when we first were discussing the schools um there was a quick discussion on whether or not they had
stabilization funds, how much they had in reserve as a region. So I submitted questions through the um chair of the committee and the amazing finance director they have responded on a Sunday um to give me this data. So, so as you
can these are this is literally the email I got. there is this capital stabilization fund with this amount of money in it as of June and then the way they carry over their END budgets um efficiency and Sean can explain this since he was
there but the they're capped the school is capped at no more than 5% carrying over but they how I asked how much was in it and how much is being budgeted and she answered how they're planning on using that money both in the current
year and in the future. Um the contingency I asked whether they knew whether under the contingency anyone would they would have to draw on it and said it's too soon for some of these others and there no other reserves. So, what I wanted to know was should I
incorporate some of this into either as a footnote um the the fact that they have this cap a total capital stabilization fund of um under 500,000 and this excess and deficiency. Think of
they can't carry any more than 5%. So, it's like our us carrying free free cash at 5%. It's on a $40 million budget as of next year. So I can try to figure out where to put that in a report if anyone wants to know what without going to the towns for more money. This is what the
schools have. So I just seek any guidance on I can just I literally can put it in a footnote. Um we got the following information and I left a little box for this. So any thoughts on how to incorporate this Lynn? I think using the footnote is
perfectly fine. >> Okay. And that's what I'll do as clearly as possible. So, and and she was unable, as you know, we had originally thought she might be able to join us when we were meeting, but she couldn't. So, that's why I sent these things. So, we we are done with
that portion of the agenda. If there aren't any questions on this, and I will put this email into the packet since I shared it today. All right. Now, how do I stop sharing? Done.
So, on the next piece, um, this would be very unusual for at least in the time I've been on finance, we've never done it, but we have the authority, the town council has the authority to ask for
information under an investigation clause. And the town council in its rules of procedure and only our only a few people would know that we have this in it. But I checked with the president of the council who pointed to me. The
council has delegated that authority to any committee should we want to use it on topics that are relevant to us as a committee. So I pulled together some questions and I can share them with you now knowing that we were going to have
this discussion. So I a am asking whether we want to do this invoke this authority and I'll put up a preliminary list and then people can look at it and say that's going too far. Some of this is in advance of the budget wanting
information. Some of it is just related to budget questions we've had for a while. Um and so if it's okay with people um I'll just pull up my preliminary list. Unfortunately, it's fairly long because I had a lot of time
to think about it. Is that all right with everyone? Yeah. Okay. Now, agenda questions. I have too many things open. Let me just potential questions.
Did did that open for everyone? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, let me see if I can close this. Okay. So, what I put out the top of this and I didn't I couldn't put this into the
packet in advance um because these are my opinions. Um, but these are the two these are the provisions that allow us to do with this is charter section 28 and there's an A and a C that relates to the town and town manager and 28D
um relates to the superintendent and school and the library director and we if we have a question we've got to give at least five five days notice. Um and then charter rule arc town council rule of procedure 10.5G
delegates this authority to committees and this was the the president found this of the council found this to me. So these were initial thoughts that I had based on what I um upcoming budget and I've organized them just by first
schools then library and then um the town. Um, so we've seen in both the regional and the elementary school preliminary budgets that there's a payroll projection increase of nearly 7%.
And we asked, at least I asked in the four town last four towns meeting, I wanted to know how much of that was just step increases, was cola, and was an increase in staffing. And we didn't get an answer other than it's part of all of the above. Um
then there is in the there is not easy to find FTE how many total employees are there in the schools and over the past 10 years. So I wanted to so I was going to ask projected FY27 compared to five
years the last five years and compare FY27 to 10 years ago for the elementary school and I didn't show this one to you. We're comb going from three elementaryaries to two and just focusing on those two. There was an estimate done
from MSBA on potential savings based on line items. So um I I have not yet seen a projection of what the two schools I'm not talking about the sixth grade academy now what the projections are on staffing for those schools. So asking
about projected staffing and then student enrollment is not easy to find on the town website with counts by categories. Then the the last few are more for um
revenue issues. UMass is paying us some money each year based on students students in our school system that are living on UMass campus housing so that they're not they're not hit by our property tax and Lynn was there I think
at the Donahghue Institute when they did an estimate of this. I was the question is whether the school has information based on the address of children um to be able to identify what the current count is because that was the
justification of the one of the UMass agreements. This one I have already asked um and I think they're planning on doing an audit is what share of the choice in students or special needs and are we doing accurate billing on it? do we audit it
and uh and that I think is it then district office payroll and people it's not easy when you look at the two budgets to say what the total district office is um what the cost of it is and how many people and how that's changed. So that's been my set and I don't know
what I don't really know whether that's too much or not. So I'm seeking I'll just stop there Lynn. >> Uh thank you. Uh first of all um on any staff or enrollment trends I think it is
critical to go back 20 years >> okay >> even if they don't have to show every year but I think it's critical to show um some benchmark years maybe every five years or something for the 20 years the other piece that I think would be
critical to show in that is breaking down uh the student enrollment including the special ed because that seems to be u where a lot of the stress is on the
budget is not necessarily increase in special ed but increase in requirements for special ed. So that's number one. Um, the second thing, and I certainly don't want to use the newspaper as my
resource, but they actually did have an article today in the Gazette that talked about um the goal of saving around 700,000, I believe, for the um in the move to the um two elementary schools
and the academy uh and the loss of I think it was around 10 teachers. news. >> Okay. So, I'm just so I have I made a change and I somehow I think with um all of my screen I can't do it in track
changes. So, I'll just put um I don't know how to um I'll just put that in Lynn changed this one to 20 years rather than 10. And I can do what you just said, Lynn. It could be every five years rather than it's consistent. And I thought the student enrollment of the
past 10 years it was total counts ELLL bed low income. So that that's what I tried to do under that >> but make that 20 years. >> Okay. Anna, >> so I I'm
I'm struggling to see how 20 years is actually going to give us a benchmark given how much has changed in the landscape of I mean just to pick one thing required support for special ed and all of that. And I I'm trying to be cognizant of the
amount of work involved in the ask. And so I'm curious if you could expand a little bit on how you picked 20 versus 10. Um, and I say that because I feel like beyond 10 years ago, the requirements were so different. So, how are we able to do that comparison? Um, and then, you know, similarly, I do
think this is a significant ask and I want us to be really mindful of what we're putting as a deadline on this because I think this is a lot of information. So I I just I'm asking the question for myself and and I guess I'll ask it of the committee too of what what
piece of information will come out of each of these questions and how will it help us? Obviously we don't know the exact information but for example what do we do with the information that you know the the FTEES have gone up or down
or changed around right like how is that helpful to us? Um I want us to just be a maybe a bit more critical of our questions uh if possible because of the amount of time that this is I don't disagree with the questions but I do think it's a big ask and so I want us to
just be really hyperritical of them. Um and then similarly I struggle with the counts of ELLL sped specifically ELLL and sped because of the different needs
within those populations right and so how that you know one ELLL learner coming in with no literacy whatsoever is going to need really different supports than someone who's literate in a different language. Um, and so how do you know I struggle to
figure out kind of the triaging of that and how account helps us? Does account help us on face value or do we need more? And then I feel like we're kind of out over our skis in terms of asking for more. I don't know if that made sense. I I >> Yeah. No, I hear what you're saying and
I'm going to see Lynn's response, but um I I just wanted to point out what I tried to do, Lynn, was compare FY15 to FY25, not to ask for the full year, but I think what Anna is asking is that has something significantly changed during that time in terms of state requirements
and I know there were new state requirements on special needs staffing that have affected. So, I think that's what you're saying on it. there some mandates that have happened during that time period. So, you can't just look at the people counts. That's what you're concerned about. Correct.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of what's the full story? >> And that is Anna, that's exactly why I um said what I said that um I think it's important to look at the 20-year trend because the enrollment decline started 20 years ago. But at the same time look
at both the enrollments for these various categories and even if they want to break them down into various levels of special needs fine and then also as they have begun to do if they did the last four towns meeting share with us some of the additional requirements that
have been added on. And frankly I'm trying to get to the point we can create better public understanding. That is where I'm going in all of this because at this point um I I think what's critical particularly at some point down
the road if there is an I um an you know a decision to go for an override that is for the schools or any other thing we need to build a case and if we're going to build a case you got to have the data. So that's one.
Um the second thing is um let me just also add Um, under the payroll projections, uh, I don't know if they have settled their contract yet,
but, uh, so you want 2020 in there as well. Um, >> thanks. Um, but you know, did this 7% increase include the either soon to be settled contract
or the settled contract. Um so Anna if I do um if I say provide any note >> provide all >> yeah but note changes in requirements
>> to be can I clarify do you you're so you're saying compare you're not saying compare just FY15 to FY25 you're saying compare from FY15 to FY by 25 is that and then Lynn is saying to do it for 20
years. So I was originally thinking that get the last five years so in our recent history and then go back to 10 years ago FY15 and Lynn I think is saying going back to FY whatever 10 years earlier than that FY05
are you saying to also do every year within that span or are you just saying >> no thank you I think I misunderstood you. I thought that you were saying to do every year. So you want 2000 2005. You really want 2005 2010
>> and then >> I can fix it and then and then >> you know there was fiveyear increments. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> And I'll I'll fix the rest of it. So the idea is I think you're right. We and Sean's hand is up. So Sean, the goal is
to get some information but limit the staff burden on getting this. And so I'm some of these things the staff has. Anna, it's >> Yeah, that's what I was going to speak to. I think FY15 the data is in a similar format to what it is in now.
It'll be much easier to pull that data and compare it in a consistent format. If you go back to 2005, I think it does start to increase the amount of staff time that would be required to pull it because I started in 2010 and a lot of these
trend uh trend reports started after that. And um so it's not that the data is unavailable, but it would be in different formats and versions and things that it's going to be hard to like verify the um it'll be like picking a point in time most likely during those
years. You think we could do 2010 then? That that that would be I I actually >> f I don't think the budget that like the staffing trends report that is in the budget now really started until like 2013 2014 something like that. >> I mean I can pull up my yearbook from
2008 and count. >> Okay. >> Right. >> The data is there. It's just again back then it was more like tracking month-to-month staffing. It wasn't um there wasn't I don't remember there being like a nice annual staffing trends
report um prior. So >> So um I see Tom's hand is up. And before I go back to Lynn, Tom, >> hi. The um yeah, this this may be information that we either already have or that we'll get
under under this specific request. Uh this is a request for FTE count. um for staff. >> Yep. >> And I'm imagining staff includes uh faculty, admin, and other um I guess I always feel like
um when you're looking at trend information like this, it's it's interesting or useful to uh to look at ratios. You know, people like to uh understand what the student teacher ratio is. I think an interesting
measure that's come to the four is is admin to teacher ratio. Uh particularly if special needs and other kinds of of administrative overhead are maybe growing at a different pace. It's it's worth knowing.
Um some of us Kathy Lynn and maybe Fra was with us were in a meeting that a presentation that Mars gave. I feel like it must have been last late summer or fall uh at the high school library and they provided some good comparative information within the Commonwealth. But
I remember that there was a question on another ratio that people have um used in the past of dollars per pupil and that was rather that was dismissed as not being a useful number. Um, and I I
understand why that case was made, but I I guess I'm just saying if we're going to make the ask for FTEES, it would probably be uh good to make sure if we if we can and Sean, to your point, if if we have apples to apples across this
time, if we if we knew the number of teachers, the number of admins, and the number of students in each of those years, that's the kind of thing I would be interested in, you know, just from a business analysis. >> So I just think it's useful.
>> I'll do a quick response to that, Tom. >> To the to the extent we've asked for years that are consistent, they always have that breakdown. So there is a line in each of these two things that talks about um high level teachers and stuff.
So I don't know whether that gets as far as you would want to go. um this I just and so I'll I'll getting much finer trying to divide it back into dollars how much is spent by on administration versus everything else that's trickier
because of the way uh the central office has been changing the way they've been built but there is um FTEES by categories if we don't overwhelm those are reg I should say they're regularly
reported on some some level Um, so I see both Lynn and Anna are I think Lynn you're relating to like can we go back as far as 2010 with um any consistency and do we say if we can't we don't want inconsistent data that's for sure. Um
and so I see Lynn's hand is up and Anna's hand is up and I can do edit I'm taking notes. I can edit this to make it cleaner. And Anna, the other thing you said is when would they have to get us this data? They're right in the middle.
We we can set a date for this that's, you know, four weeks from now if we want to. It's just, you know, we we might need some of it before May and not to try avoid trying to ask for it in the middle of budget issues was the goal
here. So, Lynn, then Anna, >> I'm I'm actually ready to move on to the next bullet, but if Anna's not, go ahead. Um, mine is about FTEES. Just a a clarifying question. Um, if that's okay.
>> Okay. >> So, one of the things that just popped into my brain is as we're looking at FTE counts, I'm thinking about how contracted services that may be newly contracted within the past 10 years are counted. So things like transportation. Um I'm not sure if food ser what the
status of food service is but uh I just want to context for changes where where applicable would be important to note. Um again like school bus drivers I don't know if they would count I I don't know how they count. This is my own ignorance of how um that type of professional
staff is counted in an FTE count for the districts and the or the elementary in the district but that would be my question. I think that's a good one. >> And that's a good one because I think at one point, Sean, we contracted out food and then we brought it back inside, you know, so and then contracted for some of
the specialists versus brought them in or put recontracted, moved them in and out. >> Okay. So, >> yeah, my next So, I think you want FTE on the third bullet down FTE elementary.
Do you want FTE of staff and students or it just says FTE? >> Oh, st Oh, sorry. Yeah, staff. >> Okay. So, um what I want to add is almost another bullet and that is somewhere in here I would hope that we
would see a breakout of the costs for the sixth grade academy. >> Okay. Okay. So that's a that's a whole separate Okay, let me backspace. >> Yeah, it probably is a whole separate bullet. >> Yeah.
Okay. I'm on on with this on I'm getting blocked up at top of seeing my thing to be able to indent. So just assume this is being backspace. Okay, >> that's fine. >> Of sixth >> sixth grade academy.
>> Great academy. >> Okay. And then >> total cost we don't need to know it by any breakdown. Okay. >> Right. >> Um can I also then go if unless somebody
else has something on the enrollment um um it on the on the one about UMass enrollment for K to 12 living at UMass campus housing. >> Yep. if we could get a trend on that because if if I'm correct the number has been
pretty much the same ever since the original payment was made and I don't think it's increased and so has is it comparable to what our per student cost is? So, do you just want me to make this
instead of that question, how does this count compare? Right. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's But it's is it comparable to our our cost per pupil? >> Oh, can't compare and the payment and the payment calculation
>> and is the payment calculation comparable to our costment calculation? >> Yeah. And in full disclosure, I was I was executive director of the Donna Hugh Institute when this study was done. I did not do the study. I was aware of it.
>> You know, Sean, this is something we talked about. I I if they can't do this easily for us, the question is do we do go to directly to UMass, you know, um on it. So the thought was there is an address for
those village apartments that that are on campus and if they could do it just identifying by address they would be able to do it. This this is a >> I don't I mean I don't think UMass is going to tell us that. I think that's from school records. I don't think
they're going to tell us who lives there and if they have kids in the schools. Um, again, back then there was a high number, so it wasn't identifiable data. It was just a total quantity of how many students lived in um in those uh family housing,
>> right? And I I also want to just make sure that we give credit when they closed family housing, they continued to pay us that money for the two years that it was closed. >> You know, this question may be a different kind of question. So, we could I can move it to the end, too. I just
it's a revenues it's a revenue >> it's a revenue issue. >> Yeah. >> Um it it also relates to our um UMass partnership agreement because it is part of the partnership agreement now >> and that's coming up for renewal
sometime in the next two years. And again my next I'm ready to go on to the next one but Anna's got her hand up. So >> sorry. Um I think the thing the the discomfort that I'm still feeling with all of these is really that one of the pieces of
feedback that we've heard from families, from parents, from educators, from admin is that hard numbers never are going to capture the full picture. And so I want to make sure that in all of these questions, we're leaving space for the the question of why might this number
not demonstrate the full picture. Um, and I I think that that's maybe in the intro is that we're welcoming that information as well because I don't want it to I I know that we can't look just at numbers and fully understand what's going on. So, I just I want to leave space for that maybe in the intro,
Kathy, as we're going through of like, please let us know as you're responding if there's a reason why kind of what's the buffer, what's the room for error on this uh for each answer. Sorry, that was a general comment I should have said. >> I think that's absolutely correct, Anna. Okay. So, on what I what I suggest and
I'm willing to work more on this is once we get through the agreement on the questions, I draft a separate memo for each of these and everyone gets to review it. Did I capture the tone correctly? And so, um, for the superintendent, she has asked that we go
through the chair and actually she's not there right now. She's on leave. So, actually, who is it addressed to? But this would be a draft memo from the finance committee. So I will try to get that done by which said tomorrow is Wednesday. So no
later than Thursday. So I'll try to I'll try to get it done. And then with these kinds of questions um uh uh we could make a March, you know, do we need these by the middle of April, the end of April, you know, so suggest a date. Um
Lynn, go ahead with yours. That's I think it to be a separate memo for each of these. >> That sounds good. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Um I want to I want to go to the next bullet on special needs. Um the issue of billing is is just a a small piece of
it. Um let me try to backtrack. Um my understanding is that when we move to a more inclusive greater services to higher need students
held within the school so that we did not have to pay as many out of school placement costs. Okay. We developed different programs. I had an opportunity to briefly visit or if you will those
programs um at that were going that are going on at um C um Weldwood and I'm assuming that they'll be moving to the new elementary school to Amethyst Brook. Um, one of the things I learned was that
depending on the level of need, of course, depends on the reimbursement, but at one point when we first started providing those services, we actually had had slots that we would sell to
outside districts and they would pay to place their student in our district for those services. My understanding is the demand for those services has now at least as of last year I don't know this year uh has become so great that we
don't have any slots available to sell and so I just I think it's a useful issue to know what level of services what level of costs what number of students and are we even able to take any out of school placements
um on that Okay. >> And just the reason for any what when we get a choice in student the flat amount is $5,000 that the send a district sends
us but if the child has special needs you can bill the sending district for the additional costs. And so the only question that I was trying to ask we are getting almost $10,000 per choice in
students. So clearly there is a billing system in place that's saying they're they're above the 5,000 and this is just a question. Do we need an audit or not? And we might not need to include this in this set because um it was asked at two
separate points and Shannon said that they would check up on this that it was a good thing to audit so we could make the list shorter by eliminating these because she already has it on her to-do list. Sam, you're you're muted.
>> Thank you, Kathy. Uh, I've been listening to the comments of others. Uh, and I think I understand the intent of the questions related to the school enrollments. Um, I believe that comparing apples to apples is important. What I'm hearing and discerning from
this discussion is that really what we're trying to do is to gain an idea of uh how the burden of funding and delivering services from an extent standpoint may
have changed based on the composition of students. uh special needs versus regular as well as the revenue aspects of choice and and out of out of uh in and out. Uh the UMass one
that's really who lives where I for whatever reason it you know I anytime we're asking people I realize it's a generic summary what part of town they're in I'm like well I'm not certain about that. Uh but my ga I gather that's
again from the revenue aspect. Um so uh >> just as background Sam there is an agreement from UMass that they're paying you know so that's a question of is the count still accurate or not. >> I understand. Um, so overall I I would
just say that it makes sense to compare apples to apples and if we don't have the data going back 25 2005 and even 2010 uh if we started tabulating this in 2013 I'd advocate for the point in time where the data is comparable uh and I
understand the value of FTEES. I do think it makes sense as what Tom indicated to uh clarify between uh uh student uh facing teachers versus administration if if available. uh and
uh from my own perspective prior to seeing these questions I've always uh wondered how the changing burden of the school system has developed based on uh higher expense needs of students. So I
think that information could be helpful from 2015 through now uh based on what you've asked. >> Thank you. And I I can capture some of this in the memo too. Um now this last one I'm not even sure how relevant it
is, but I when I look at the two budgets and Sean you can tell me whether this is accurate. I'm not sure you can easily say how much does the district office total what is the total cost for that and payroll cost of it because we distribute it back to the elementary
schools in the region. Um so if it's easy to see this then um this question may not be but it gets a little bit Tom at the question you asked that sort of this is this is on some level a real ad
it's an administrative cost but it has everything in it has the finance director it has some other directors and it has the superintendent so I'm not sure whether to include this one or not. Mhm. >> Any thoughts on the last one? Because
then I'm moving on to Jones. Um, and these were just I knew this was coming so I came more prepared. Lynn, um, I'm just trying to calculate whether three years goes back to and covers the
prior administration. And to be fair, it would only be fair if you went all the way back and made sure you covered the last year that Mike Mars was fully on staff.
>> So, do you give me a count a count any >> I I'm I'm thinking it's more like five years. >> Okay. to get a good picture because there, you know, I I will just say that in conversations with a superintendent,
the central office was pretty much decimated at one point and I think she's built it back up. The question is, how does that compare to previous administrations? And the only way to do that is to make sure you go all the way back to
um Mike Morris's last full year, >> right? So, which I think is about five years now. >> Okay. Are people ready to move to the next group? Great.
Okay. So Jones uh when when we were first talking about the Jones project and the expansion of floor space, we asked whether there was going to be a need for more staff to staff the bigger building. And the
answer was uh potentially a part-time additional custodial staff. all this as is this still the case you know in terms of staffing of the new building then the rest goes into
the endowment fund and the plan draw 27 you know and Sean may be answering some of these today uh so the trustees how much they've contributed to the project to date um and show separately the
amount they got from grants some from CPA Ammerst College and HUD the building project the itself the agreement with the town says the trustees are going to pay the balance they owe it when either when MBLC pays the last grant which when
we wrote it said first said 2027 or one year after occupancy if that closure was delayed and that was June 2028 I don't know what those dates are now um so what's the estimated made an amount of that payment, how will the trustees pay
and what's the remaining balance of the endowment and the draw needed for the operating budget. Um, and then I'm just rattling through these so we can go back. Then during the time that
the library trustees have not contributed the full share, the town has taken out short-term bands, short-term bond interests and and so we are carrying a higher share than we would otherwise. Um is there a way of
calculating that? And Sean would know would is the only one who would know whether we can identify that cost. Um, and that my last one was just I happened to look at the Forbes library budget to
the extent I could pull it off the Northampton and it seemed to be quite a bit lower than the Jones library budget, the town taxpayer share of it. And I didn't find out the amount from their endowment or not. Um, so it was just a
question of how did the two compare? We've I don't think we've ever compared our library operating costs to other libraries and I picked one in a neighboring town. So that's my Jones set and again some of this may be with what
Sean has already prepared for today. Um so the concern is both that the library may be short on money and that the town's outyear budgets may be more affected by all of this than we know right now. if the library can't come up
with their share. That's why it's budget related. Any reaction to this set? Again, I'll do it as a separate memo for people to be able to read with not a reply tomorrow on it. Lynn,
>> with regard to the bullet on the band. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh I think you make an assumption there. I'm not clear that that's a true assumption. So it would be how does this compare to what might have been projected?
>> How >> I could speak to that today or whenever I give the update. >> Okay. Okay. Should I just delete it then, Sean? >> No, I think I think the question's fine. I I can answer it or um you know begin to answer it. I think some of these questions are definitely going to
require the library um you know the library to respond, but that one in particular I can speak to. So you want compared to what was anticipated >> projected projected >> to the extent that you know you we had
accurate projections. >> Okay. >> They're always accurate projections Lynn. I >> thank you. >> So you wanted we always knew we were going to do this. So the question is has it been higher than we thought. That's what you want that to say. >> Sure. and and uh on the next one regarding Forbes,
this is kind of like the issue of comparing DPWs to DPWs. >> Okay, >> you can't look at Forbes and just say why are they lower? You have to look at what the programs are they're providing. I mean, I don't know how robust a youth
program they have. I don't know how robust they have in terms of some of the other programs our library does. So there's got to be some program comparison in order to do a comparison of costs. >> So would you delete this all together or
would you expand it? >> If I have no problem doing comparisons. I just want to make sure again we're comparing to apples to apples. >> Anna, >> I'm kind of curious who they would say to compare them to. I think that would be interesting in of itself, right? Like
if if it's not necessarily our neighboring communities. um who is it that they would consider their their peer so that we can understand where their benchmark is. Um, and Kathy, I think it's a fair question to say, you know, what is different from
us versus Hadley, Northampton, you know, South Hadley, whatever it is. Why is ours different? I think is a fair question. But I also think, you know, if who who is who is who should we compare you to? And >> so if I did, if not compared to Forbes, is there another comparison? Does that
>> I think that's fair. And Lyn, I added, are the programs offered different? You know, um what else? Right. You know, I looked, we have two branches, but our branches are only part-time branches. They have one, but that's open seven days a week. You know,
I don't know whether they think of Lily as a branch or just a separate light, but it's encompassed. And I added the numbers. Okay. Uh, and by the way, I think keeping these questions all in one place is good because it's a check then for us as to
what we've heard. >> Sam, >> uh, thank you Kathy. Uh, lots of questions there. Um the ones that came to my mind with this being on the subject uh and you've covered some of essentially is
uh how is the library uh doing and compared to their plan of payments? In other words, what was the initial expectation of payment dates and amount made and where
we're at? So if they could provide uh a status from the start of the program till now in terms of how they're doing in terms of uh what were the planned payments and what the um unmet
amounts are. So I recognize the interest and other items indicate you know burden on the town but what I'm primarily concerned about uh from anformational standpoint >> does that do it how payments to the town
compared to what the trustees expected >> um a table I guess or or something that would indicate each year and I my guess is that this already exists How are they doing in terms of what they
had projected to be able to pay? >> Okay. >> Uh and where they are and what's their plan to uh meet the uh commitments through the end of the project.
>> Okay? Because I think what we're talking about here, the general nature of this is to gain information on what might be coming down the road that we can see now that the town might have to wrestle with >> if if there are gaps and that will
relate to uh what was the initial understanding and expectation of payments where are we now and if there's a gap which I think there is uh How are we going to address that? And
these questions that you've been asking, some of them lay the groundwork for that. I think a simple summary of that. I know they've uh the Jones I've seen a few of the meetings have presented this information in the past, so it would probably be an update, but it would provide uh
background andor current information for uh those who are interested. >> So, I've added how does it compare to what was projected? What's the remaining balance? and then for us to give us a a table. >> Yeah. Not just for 2027, I guess, is what I'm getting at. >> Yep.
>> And you know, have there been changes, you know, there was one grant that, uh, was removed, uh, you know, and but whatever the expectations are, it's really kind of a it's not a cash flow, but it's a, uh,
you know, a debt, for lack of a better term, payment. And how we going to >> Well, and where are we going to be at? >> No. And the trustees may or may not have been able to collect on every pledge, you know, >> of course, >> you know, convert them to convert all of those to money.
>> It's certainly not an easy uh process to raise a ton of money and collect, but I think it would be helpful for the the town and for members to know where exactly are we at this fixed point in time. And perhaps uh we should have had this discussion after Sean speaks. I
don't know, but I'm pretty sure we can. So what what I'm going to suggest is we leave this we listen to Sean and then we figure out if a few of these got answered and then I will keep them all in one place so you know but I'll I'll then branch them out to separate memos
to the respected people. >> Thank you. >> Are we ready to I'm sorry to to just dump this on. These are pentup questions. So, a while ago, uh, actually
a resident sent me police overtime pay and hours. And, um, the overtime pay and the hours look really high. And some of that or a lot of it might be to detail work that's not paid by the town the way
we count hours. So they may have worked just an hour but in our scale it counted for two hours or and so this is is there a policy capping outside hours so that we don't have people working 40 hours for the town and another 30 because
detail work in case people haven't seen pays a lot of money. The town manager had said he didn't know the answer to this and would get uh get answers. So, I thought I would just ask it again. Fire EMS. Um
when we talked about staffing in the fall and we did guidelines, we talked about the earlier staffing analysis and that was done just before Hadley left us and there was a question had the had there been an update on the study of
staffing needs um and do we have peak load challenges or ongoing challenges and so I think it was a question of you know how much are we short staffed are we short staffed just when there's an emergency or constantly. Then DPW staffing and expense budget.
Did we do the council supported a while ago a market wage study comparing our staff to others? I'm not sure whether we included the DPW staff and all the DPW staff. So, it's just a question of did we do did we do the study and if yes,
what were the findings? Um what's been the turnover rate in staff? How many staff have been on staff for more than five years? Are there training cost consequences of turnover? And then a thought the other thought was
on sewer and water our enterprise funds when we budget them a share of DPW payroll and benefits is build to the enterprise funds. I'm not sure how much the total DPW staffing and everything is
built to those and do the rates that we have in place for sewer and water allow for increases including contractual for payroll so it's like your question for the schools have we already built them in
for payroll I um we we flag this after last year's budget review um that the expense budgets of DPW and that should say other major departments had been literally frozen at dollar levels. So they were regularly going over budget um whether
it was for supplies for DPW or police and fire. So it's a question our FY27 budgets going to be budgeted to include increased costs for expenses and supplies for DPW.
Um, this is one, Sean. It's a duplicate of what we just asked in JCPC. It's hard to find an accounting of the total amount of roads money we have from chapter 90 because it's come in from two streams. It's the regular chapter 90 and the fair share, the tap town capital
appropriations, and others. So, I'm going to stop there because I see Anna's hand is up. So, this is getting into a bunch of um other questions. Anna and the town thing went on because I was expanding it as I was listening.
>> Fair enough. Um, and I think this is kind of getting at what you are talking about in the if you can scroll down a little bit. Uh, this expense budgets. I think that there's even more broken out parts. I I think that one of the questions I I know this isn't possible
and Sean I am clarifying that I know this isn't possible but in my brain what my brain wants is a line is a is a is a graph showing you know how much land we've acquired or how much the population has increased and how much the operating budgets have increased or
not right and so I think this is kind of what you're getting at but I think what the piece that's missing is you know how much has been added um how And and I I know that that's such a relative question, but I'm struggling to put it succinctly because it's it's partly
land. It's partly use has increased. It's partly type of maintenance has has increased, right? So the spray park takes a different type of maintenance and a different part of DPW than uh new athletic fields. But where's the how do
we how do we tease that apart um to ensure that operating budgets are meeting the the needs when we've increased the demand? >> So does it have we added added to expense budgets as the town expands playgrounds, parks, etc. Um
>> I would say proportionately and if not, how are we under? I'm going to go ahead and confidently say we're not over. Lynn, >> actually want to go up to the top and come down. Um,
on fire EMS, we only ever provided EMS services to Hadley and my knowledge. Uh so it's not fire but I think what now is important is to understand what is Hadley's budget
crisis going to do in its demand for fire services from us. So I just want to make sure we're asking the right question. We never provided fire. We only provided EMS. >> Okay. So should I just change it to
should I just change it to EMS then or? >> Yeah. >> Okay. But no, you should be the whole title is fire and EMS because >> okay after >> the immediate question is >> staff study after >> or EMS
>> right and then now the issue is with Hadley's budget crunch what impact is that having on us for fire >> supposedly their contract EMS is you know there although they're
not their contract EMS is not at the same level our EMS messes give a higher >> and I still want to know about it though. >> I agree with you totally. >> Does does this does that work with Hadley budget crunch? What impact is >> on Ammerst fire and EMS
>> on Ammeris Fund? I will make this uh fix typos. >> Yep. Uh, and then on the DPW expense staff. Um,
yeah, I know this question came up last night, so let's just leave it there. Um, it it seems to me on the expense budgets for DPW and other I think what you're talking about is the operating budgets, not the person. >> I apologize. Yes.
>> Okay. But the reality is as we've expanded um our property it the cost is not just expansion of um expenses operating expenses it's it's also personnel.
So it's personnel and non-personnel. you know, because they're they're two separate buckets. One is the need for more labor time and the other is the need for more grass seeds, tar, salt, >> you know, name name whatever we call the
the budget. You know, one of the things you can see in JCPC and S, I see your hand is up, is a few of the things that DPW used to provide out of their budget, um, street lights, changing them over is now a capital request. So, a few things
have been moved. Um, but but they're only the bigger items, Lynn. They're not, you know, the other pieces. So, uh, you know, meanwhile, yeah. Anyway, I see Sam's hand is up. Uh thank you Kathy. Uh there's a lot of
questions in detail requested here. Uh and I'm not sure uh how promptly some of this information can be gathered. Uh in general, I like the concept uh that I discerned from Anna's question regarding
the general trends in uh new work for the DPW versus current work. uh that was raised we heard the other day and in general as it relates to these questions it's the deltas that
are of interest to me uh similar to the school it's what has changed uh in the current projections versus what had changed in the past I have less you know concern about the specific details of
you know who work how many hours here there and the other place but the general overall all top level departmental allocations. Um I'm not certain how uh well I guess we'll have to find out how quickly and easily this information could be
provided that we're asking but uh in terms of prioritizing the requests I I would prioritize the uh top level uh buckets for lack of a better term of the departments and what are the primary changes uh new expenses and otherwise
from prior years >> and I'm I'm gonna think of what what the wording change that needs to there's I think we are >> I'm not sure that it needs to >> but but emphasize that we're talking about the change it's not the you know you know so there's very few equipment
that's labor saving here this is labor intensive work you know so so yeah Anna >> I know I know I know okay um so I think that there's the the piece here and then I also I mean the question for everybody.
Maybe because it hits everybody, inflation isn't necessarily the the talking point here, but I I just I want to note that all of these operating budgets, all of these expenses are going to be slammed by inflation, not just the addition of new property. And I think
that while everyone is hit by this, DPW is hit particularly hard given the amount of uh resources that they utilize comparatively to like fire or police, right? because they're bringing in material literal material. Um, so I I
mean I I want to ask about inflation, but I don't know if that means we have to ask about inflation for everyone and I it could be that that is too much in the weeds and we don't need to. But I'd love to hear if other folks on the committee think it would be helpful for us to understand infl how inflation has
impacted different areas or not. And I'm happy to let it go if people are like eh it's kind of going to be a wash, but I'm not I'm not sure that it is. when you look at at the different areas. >> Well, I think >> I think it would tell us that some of
the um >> the licensing costs have gone up a lot. >> Absolutely. >> You know, so um so whether we want to so I I think your question is should we focus mainly on DPW here or should we
ask a more generic? Um yeah. And and um Sean Sean and Paul were in the room. Paul may have left the room as we got to this section, but but we're we're also trying to do it in a way that they're answerable rather than it's a whole research project. >> 100%. And it could be that this is just
too in the weeds and not helpful. Again, thinking about what information are we getting? >> Yeah, Sam. >> Uh if I understand correctly, Anna, you're asking what are the changes in expenses for ongoing services based on
>> higher prices? In other words, specific inflation as opposed to generic overall inflation such as we're giving a 3.5% budget increase. You're ask you're inquiring what has tangibly changed in
terms of their current services uh the expenses now versus prior years as opposed to an economic inflation number. >> Yeah. No, that's it. I mean, Guilford, for example, talked about the the increased cost of tar, >> right? Exactly. That's what That's what was in my head.
>> A a road costs more. A mile of road costs more because tar is more expensive. Yeah. And >> yeah, exactly. >> We have and we haven't figured out how to have a drone do the tar a nonhuman applied the tar yet.
>> Maybe escalation is a more appropriate term than inflation. Um I don't know that this your your comment on tar Kathy raised a thought in my mind which is uh are there different grades of
durability for tar that we use on our roads right >> and I think that this actually down the road in the long term is an issue that could be significant. Uh, in other words, are there materials for roads that last
longer than others even if they might be less uh >> uh so some of these >> environmentally ideal? >> So when we get this set, we might want to reserve some of them for specific conversation with uh Guilford and staff
during the DPW review during in May um on this. you know, where are there are there critical points? So, what you're saying is drill down a bit more that we're okay here, but here it's, you know, it's 50% more expensive than it used to be. Um, >> and there's no and there's no
alternative or there is an alternative that would be better. Yeah. >> What what I'm really saying is not specific to this budget. It's longer term planning. If roads is a massive expense down the road, uh can we switch to a new uh material that might have a
much longer lifespan than the current ones? Uh it's not for this set of questions, but I think it's important for the uh long-term planning if we could if if if uh there are materials that cost more to put to to utilize, but
they last one and a half times as long. I think that's a discussion at this point regardless of uh uh what occurred in the past that might be warranted. So, >> okay, I see Sean's hand is up and I'm worried that we're we're at 219. So, I'm just I'm also looking at the clock. Um
so, we could Sean, you >> Yeah, real quick. I just wanted to ask are are you I mean, is the expectation that these are responded to as part of the like budget presentation when they when they come back to finance committee? So like the library and the schools for example will be coming to
finance committee in April um potentially to speak to um you know speak to their budgets or do you want them sooner? Just going back to the the staff time like this is the month where staff are spinning the fastest to get the budgets ready especially the library
and the schools right now to get their budgets ready for voting this month. Um, I guess the question is, is there a difference to this committee if these are answered before or after they before they present their budget? Because I don't know that the their responses to these questions are going to change what
they're going to propose for a budget this month. Um, at this point, >> um, I think that's a great question. So, when the first set with the schools, can we make it expect these questions when we we come to the budget discussions?
Um, or do we and that's in May. Um, and the same would be for the library. >> Um, and which do we want sooner than that? And then for the town, I'm seeing Paul's hands out to town. Some of this is focused on particular areas. Others that I'm about to get into is grants,
grants that are available, property that we could turn into to money earning. Those don't need to be answered now. So, we could do the whole town set maybe during the budget hearings. The budget hearings. the budget oversight. Paul,
>> I I had the similar question to Sean. I think these are really good uh questions that we would slot in during the budget presentations and have them pre-answered. That's they're very good questions. I think too um I mean I think and again with Sean our folks are working I mean Sean in in particular is working like overtime trying to get our
budget put together. Um for Sam's questions regarding the roads, there will be a presentation to the town services and operation and outreach committee in April. We'll get that update to you by the town engineers that would talk a little lot lot about about road treatments and all the level of
details you were asking about Sam in terms of uh and what what the cost implications are of that but also just how they treat how they choose to treat roads. It's a real it'll be a really interesting presentation. I think every counselor should hear it but um so I think that that's a a venue for your
your questions instead of the finance committee necessarily. >> Yeah. So, so let me propose um in interest of time so we can get to at least part of the rest of this that we come back to the discussion of questions
for the town next meeting. Um and I I'll just let you see what's here and uh we can put it in the packet then so people can have any other thoughts they would have and that most of these questions would be flagged for May. a few of these
on a you're going to recognize complete streets, you know, sources of grants, sources of outside money. We might want to split them to a different topic all together because there are there revenue. Um, and then the South Street school
property, we did designs on it. We paid for a consultant. What's the plan, you know, to put it back on the property tax role? So, a few of these are different. And so my suggestion would be I send this to you as it is now and we come
back to the town side and split them into two that are budget related. Um and then we put it on the agenda for the March 17th meeting Sam. >> Yes. >> What what how do you react to that? You
know the Wildwood School is the last one of the school. >> I I didn't intend to have my hand raised. >> Oh, okay. I sorry. So does is people comfortable with um I I've that is that's kind of the end. Um Wildwood the question came up actually a resident
sent it in that if the schools say it's we don't want it Wildwood anymore and give it to the town and we take over Wildwood starting in September or October of this year. Will we just close it down or do we does the town have to pay for its utility costs? So, it's
purely a is it does it does some part of Wildwood go on the town budget separate from the elementary schools? And so, I put that one in because I saw it come in from a resident. So, do people how I guess the response is two things. Is can
we stop talking about this and come back to the the questions for the town and think of the school questions as for when we see them and give them plenty of time to know that these questions are coming. And same with the library other
than what we're going to hear from T that uh Sean today. And then on the 17th, come back to the DPW, town, roads, everything else questions, fire to refine them since it's a pretty long
list and do that next meeting. Sam, >> thank you, Kathy. Uh, regarding the South Street School property, as I read your questions here, um, you're referencing three possible designs were prepared. Uh, consulting
funds. I attended those meetings and um that of course uh or this is under the assumption that it's going to be housing and my understanding is that hasn't been determined as of yet. Um so in terms of your question of what's the timeline to
decide um it may be a timeline to decide not simply between three designs but rather might there be longer term alternative uses. Uh, and I think that's kind of what you're getting at here. But when I
see the first bullet item being three possible designs were prepared, uh, it seems to lead to the con context that that's, uh, what is being discussed in terms of timeline to decide.
>> Yep. because I don't I I think the presentations and there was a lot of work gone into them uh relate specifically to that option for building but there could be other options. So I added it to housing or other um you know
just so you know it's it's on the building list of we spend money on that building every year you know so it's a little bit of money not a lot of it so I think this is a separate category so what I'm suggesting is we move off this list and come back to it on the 17th and
split them into two categories because some of them have more to do with grant opportunities and turning a property from a cost to a revenue stream. Um if how do we make those decisions? Wildwood
at some point we have to make a decision of what to do with the Wildwood property too. The same kind of question comes up you know holding on to it or not holding on to it and these may not be just finance. Uh TSO or others may be thinking about you know this is land use
um and surplus property. So I can't see everyone but is everyone comfortable of tableabling stopping on the town related for now coming back to them on the 17th I send this whole list to everyone after we get off this meeting I separate the
two memos the school's memo and the library memo so you can review those and then we can move on to the rest of the agenda. Yes I see everyone's nodding. All right, I will stop sharing. I think
now the the next the other items and I think it'd be better to hear from Sean first on Joan. So changing the agenda item. I will resend the suggested finance committee meeting schedule since Lynn said it did. She didn't see it
posted in the packet, but I suggested that we meet on Thursdays of the the the weeks in May from 1 to 3 and I added one meeting in November. That's the only change to the agenda. So, I just want to make sure everyone's comfortable with
doing that. And I added the 17th of November to the agenda, but we can talk about it next meeting because the other thing I did is I did specifics in May. When will we talk about schools? when will we talk about this? When will we talk? And we could talk through that
sequence with a little bit more time. So, I'm suggesting we wait for the 17th for that if everyone's comfortable with it. And Anna, you're just you're that you put on the list um the talking about
what we might want to hear from departments, who we might want to hear from in the fall. >> Yeah. >> Um could be moved to next. We the 17th right now is we don't have CPAC the the community preservation act I thought was going to be referred to us by the 17th
of March and it's not. So we've got time on the 17th for some of these discussions. Okay, >> that's fine. >> Okay, Sean, now we're on the item that I thought I had listed for December March 17th. Jones, >> thank you. Kathy, can you hear me? Okay.
>> Yes. Can everyone hear Sean? And so >> and we if the questions we've raised aren't answered today, we'll come back to it. >> Yeah, I think this will cover most of them and I'm sure there'll be some follow-up questions. So, um the update today is not going to be on the project
budget. We're planning on presenting project budget updates at the building committee level. Um so that is on the agenda for Monday. So questions on how the project is going in terms of are we on budget, what's our contingency look
like, those types of questions. Um I'm not planning to address those today, those would be discussed in more detail on Monday with the building committee. Um and I we can certainly share uh for that presentation. We're going to have more of a report. This is more of a oral
update uh to this committee, but um for that one, we plan to have more of a report and we can uh share that with this committee. So, we uh before we get into the financings, we went out to get our uh bond rating updated. So, the good news
is we were reaffirmed at a double A+ bond rating. I don't know if I filled the committee in on that yet. Um it was we were a little not I wouldn't say nervous but uh we got the sense from the bond rate agencies that Massachusetts sort of has a general negative outlook
um because of you know federal policies and how they interact with Massachusetts you know the the overall economy. Um but in particular I think it was sort of how Massachusetts and and our reliance on higher education and how important that is and that has sometimes been the
target um of federal policy. So um so there was a general negative outlook but we were happy that our rating was reaffirmed at a double A plus and it was reaffirmed with a stable outlook. Um when they give you their your rating they can give you a negative outlook, a stable outlook, you know positive
outlook. Um and we were reaffirmed at AA plus with a uh stable outlook. Um the the commentary on the credit rating very similar. We'll post it on the website if it's not posted there already, but very similar to prior years in terms of um the factors that led to that rating. Um,
and the two biggest things that prevent us from getting a AAA rating continue to be um, our long-term liabilities, in particular, OPED and our pension. Our pension is becoming honestly more of a positive because we're um, our funded funding percentage
is up in the 70 80% range now, which is really good for a big liability like that. We're one of the better systems in the state. Um but our OPED liability while good relative to other communities, it's not anywhere near where pensions are funded for the most part. We're like 20% funded for OPED. Um
so that's one uh one factor. And then the other factor is that our uh income per capita is always skewed very low because of the college students and we tried to make the case with the with the bond rate with S&P um to consider alternatives. We presented some
alternatives but um we have been unsuccessful at swaying them to consider a different you know basically a carve out in their model for Ammerst. Um there really aren't other communities in Massachusetts or very few communities in Massachusetts that are like us where uh
you know almost 50% of the population is uh college students with very low reported income. Um and that drives down our per capita income which is uh a negative on the bond rating. So those are really the two barriers and one of them we can do something about with
funding OPED and the other one we can't really do anything about. So right now we have two um financings for the library. We have a permanent financing for 15.8 million and that is
for 30 years at a rate of 3.85%. That came in a little bit lower than where we've seen the market. So we were excited. And just so everyone knows, when we go out for all financings, whether it be a permanent financing or short-term, it's done through a competitive process. So, we work with our financial advisor, there's they
basically put it out to bid, sort of like we do when we buy something like a piece of equipment, and banks bid on the debt. Um, and we take the lowest cost to the town is how we we move forward with that. So, uh, the annual debt service for that permanent financing is about
$40,000 lower per year than what we were projecting. Um, so if you were to look at our preliminary capital plan for FY27, that was based on estimates. Now, we have an actual debt schedule. So, if you were to look at the the estimates in that um for our debt for this project at
the end of that report, um it'll when we update this before we present to the council, it'll be about $40,000 lower um per year. So that was positive and now we have a fixed schedule um with which to pay the town share of this project going forward.
>> Sean, can you take just a quick question? Did you did you go out for a 20-year bar? What what was >> it was a 30 It was a 30-year borrowing. >> 30. So you have you have a fixed number and in JCPC as we go out to the outer years, is that the number we see
>> in JCPC? you see a higher number because that was we were estimating a higher interest rate than what we actually got. So the numbers that you see in JCPC will come down a little bit. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Y >> the other borrowing and I think this is more that of what speaks to your
question is we borrowed 13.8 a million is really for CPA and the other 12.8 is to cover cash flow needs from now to the end of the project. So we're in sort of the home stretch of the project. Um the date where it's expected to be completed
is March um 2027. So about a year from now. Uh our short-term borrowing is for one year and uh the interest rate on that was 2 and a4. So the annual interest cost for that
borrowing is about $286,000. Um now the thing to remember with with all borrowings, we actually make some money back on investment returns as well. So we get all the money at the beginning and so that money sits in a interest bearing account of which right now the rates are pretty good. Um so
some of that gets we get back. Um I think the question that was in the that you discussed earlier was how much have we had to date. We really haven't had any to date because we only had uh to date we've been relying on MBLC money fundraising
um and we had a small ban of about 2.8 8 million and you can't really say whether that 2.8 million was for the town share or the or the library share but now you know this 13.8 um or really the 12.8 of that is really for the libraries not
just the library share the library share and the MLC because we're also waiting on MBLC payments. we were going to have some sort of um temporary borrowing no matter what because of the way the MBLC works where they space it out over you know originally it was out over five years now it's might be a little bit
longer um because there's a six payment in there so where are we so um MBLC payments are kind of important so um when we this debt is going to basically end next March and at that point we're going to
evaluate the project and determine how much we need to roll over. We don't anticipate having to borrow any more than what we've borrowed in terms of short short-term. So, we don't anticipate having to borrow more than 12.8 um for the the share from NBLC in the in the library. Um but we might have
to borrow roll over a smaller amount basically to get us through the end of the sort of the close out of the project. Now, uh so MBLC we've we are optimistic that we might get a payment this year. Our last payment from MBLC was an FY25.
We're optimistic that we might get a payment between now and June. Um we're not there's nothing set in stone or guaranteed at this point that we will definitely get a payment, but um we're optimistic that we will. If we do get a payment, that would give us a payment this fiscal year and then we would
expect a payment in FY27 and a final payment in FY28. And sometimes the MBLC does things a little bit differently based on their cash flow and their funding. Um, so I don't have a set schedule. Um, that might be something when the library
comes they might have more information, but I don't at this point I don't have a a set schedule when I'm we're definitely going to receive each payment. I know there's different milestones in terms of close out of the project that trigger the final payment. Um, but I know they've also made exceptions and done things based on their cash flow.
So, um, so again, we have this short-term borrowing through March of 2027, and we will likely have one more, uh, short-term borrowing for a smaller amount after that. And that amount will be based on what additional funds we've received from the library and what additional MBLC payments have been, um,
made at that point. And all of that was incorporated into the capital plan already. So, the plan, the the capital plan that's been pres presented to JCPC, we knew, we've known since the beginning of this project that there was going to be some short-term
carrying costs for, uh, the different funding sources that make up this project. Um, so, uh, it actually should come down a little bit as well because the interest rate came in better than what we were estimating. So, again, that that portion and the the debt schedule at the back of the capital plan should come down a little bit um, from what was
presented to JCPC. All right, >> Sam, did you have a question as someone was going through or do you can you hold it till the end? >> I I could hold it. >> Okay, >> I got just a couple more things. So, um so just a a recap and you touched on
this earlier, Kathy. So, um theou that we have with the library basically says that they will make their uh kind of final payment to the town or or you know whatever is left to the town um on June 30th, 2027, which would be the end of
FY27, which at that point that theou was written was when we thought we might get the the final MBLC payment or if for any reason final MBLC payment is delayed beyond that point that we would get it within 12 months of the certificate of occupancy for the building. Um, so
assuming we get the certificate of occupancy for the building sometime in the spring of 2027, sometime in March, April, maybe earlier, depending when they wrap everything up. Um, you know, the latest we would expect to get the final payment from the library would be
12 months from that point. So, spring of 2028. So that's why I said there might be a need for one final little piece of of borrowing potentially. So MBLC
um the total amount we're expecting to get from them is a little over 15 million. It got increased which was good sometime you know in the last few years I think after I left and before I came back uh they increased it a couple million dollars which was nice. So, um,
we've received 8.3 million from MBLC, which equals roughly the first three payments, and we expect another 7 plus million in the final three payments. Again, one thing to know with this project, um, you know, some good, some,
you know, led to higher costs, but it is what it is. Um, a lot of the money we had early on, so we were able to generate interest from it. So, for example, MBLC, they paid, you know, a couple of their payments very early on in the project, or at least the first payment very early on, and then they
gave us uh two additional payments before all, you know, based on milestones that were hit. So, we've been generating interest on that. We've generated a couple hundred,000 of interest on MLC payments. Um, there's been interest generated on the fundraising portion. Um, now, as money,
this project is starting to pick up and it's starting to spend money rather quickly because we're in this home stretch now. Um, so that's going to start to wind down a little bit, but I will say we have been able to generate a solid amount of interest on the funding sources that were sort of given that were given to the project early on
before construction really started. Um, but going forward, you know, we're expecting a monthly cost to be in the 2 to3 million range um, between construction invoices and design and everything that goes with it.
And then the last piece, so library trustee uh library trustee fundraising. So again, one thing I want to caution is what the library trustees have raised in terms of commitments and other promises, obligations is different than what's been turned over to the town. And
what I'm going to sh uh outline is what's been turned over to the town. Um so I just want to, you know, there may be information that they've shared that is that includes commitments and other things. I want to be clear that's not the information I'm sharing. This is literally what's been turned over. Um so
we have received about 5.4 million. Uh we recently received 1.1 million from them in the last few weeks. So um so that's gone up uh just recently. And of this amount 500,000
is to pay for additional design services. So it doesn't count towards the the 13.8. So 13.8 8 million is the library trustees share of the project budget. Of the 5.4 million that they've turned over to date, 500,000 is doesn't count
towards that because it's for additional design work that had to happen when the bids came in higher um and to kind of rework those bids. And so there was an agreement that that would not count. Um so I just want to be clear. So they've contributed 5.4. Of that 5.4 for about
um 4.9 counts towards the the target. So with the target being 13.8, they've contribute uh turned over 4.9 to the to the town. That leaves about 8.9 remaining to be turned over.
And again, they would have the for ourou uh the trustees have till either June 30th, 2027 or you know spring of 2028 depending on when the certificate of occupancy is is um is
issued. >> Right. So Sam's hand was up and then I have questions but I'm looking for questions from others um through that yman going through numbers for us. Thank you Sean. Sam. >> Uh, thank you Kathy and thank you Sean
for uh information, clarity of communication. Uh, a lot going on there. Summarize uh what I think is easy to understand, but uh I didn't hear what you referenced as the interest rate on the 15.8 30-year bond. What was that
rate? 3.5 or >> uh 3.85. So the it's a little it kind of depends. So that was part of a bond that had other projects being bonded. We bonded the ladder truck. We bonded the pumper truck. There were a bunch of projects that came due. So the the net
interest on the whole package is 3.7. Um but the they assign individual rates based on the pieces of it. Um so the average for the whole package was 3.7, but this piece is 3.85. >> Thank you. And if I heard correctly, the
uh library share MLC, you referenced a uh shorterterm uh borrowing of 13.8 at 2 and a4%. Is that correct? >> Correct. And that 13.8 again, a million of it is actually the CPA project. Um so we didn't permanently borrow that one
yet. That'll be the next goound or we might just pay it off as a ban potentially. It's a small enough amount. We'll we have to work through that. Um but the yeah so that 13.8 is two and a quarter. >> And am I correct in my understanding
that the town carries that amount but that it is accounted for as a component of the library share? >> No. So that is a project cost. So that that's a cost that we have to pay as part of the capital plan. Um the the
library has to raise their amount of 13 um8. So the the 13.8 is the amount they'll contribute right >> towards that borrowing but the interest is carried by the town. Is that correct? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh and uh last question not
specifically related to Jones but you referenced two items that you were wondering about when our bond rating was double A+. It was the second one that has always been a question for me in my mind for at least the last eight years. The OPED uh rating. And you said we've contributed 20% to that approximately.
Uh how do you see that going forward? Not with a big summary, just in general. >> Yeah, I mean wondered about that. >> Yeah, >> that hidden cost that people may not be aware of. >> It's going to be up to the council and and this might be a summer topic for finance committee. Um we're doing the
town has done really good getting it up to 20% in a relatively short time frame. Um the liability bounces all over the place because it's related to health insurance and different assumptions that the actuaries use. So I've seen it, you know, go up $10 million in a year and drop $10 million in a year and that's a pretty big percentage of the liability.
Um but the big question will be uh our retirement assessment, you know, knock on wood that there's no major economic downturn that's prolonged. Um is on track to be funded by 2033.
So at that point there's uh the the retirement system is working through uh kind of a phase down of the assessment. About half of our assessment is related to funding that unfunded portion. So when it's fully funded that half of the assessment theoretically can go away. Um
but the retirement system is working through is it going to kind of ease that over multiple years so it's not like a cliff in terms of uh the assessment but whatever they do the town will have lower costs. Um, and the one
idea is do we then shift some of that funding, maybe not all of that funding, but do we shift some of the the savings there because it'll be in the millions of dollars over time, um, to OPED so that we can fully fund the OP oped. And the OPED liability number is not nearly as big as the retirement number. So, it
will not, you know, we that number could be funded pretty aggressively and we could get it to a good place, you know, in a decade if the town wanted to. So, >> thank you. So, a seven-year, we hope to have it funded at that point and then be uh uh have greater flexibility. Uh
>> yeah, >> appreciate your uh providing that information. Thank you. >> Yep. >> So, Sean, I want to go back through >> the the quick math we just got. Um just make sure I wrote it down. >> So, 13.8
owed a million of which is CPAC, you know, where the comm well I'll just about a million. So that leaves 12.8. Is any of that 12.8 due from Ammeris College or had they already paid the million they pledged,
>> right? So there's there's two 13.8s and it's just a coincidence. Um, so I'll just I'll go through that part one more time. So I think you're talking about the end in terms of library trustee fundraising. Is that right? >> Yeah. I just you know that I'm trying to I know everything has to add up to roughly 46.2.
>> Yeah. So the so the 13.8 target that the library trustees are responsible for that doesn't include CPA. Um okay. So and that's getting um the ban earlier is the part that had CPA part of it but it's just a coincidence that those numbers are the same. >> Okay.
>> Um so the 13.8 if you go to one of the recentus I think it was number two that outlines the the each source. So 13.8 8 from uh the library, the 15.5 or so from MBLC, a million from CPA, and then the
balance from the town. Um, so the 13.8 is just the library share that they have to contribute. And >> okay, so you've taken everything else out. So if I take 13.8 minus the 9 4.9 they've done so far. >> Yeah, >> that's that's what they need.
>> 8 8.9 million left to go. 8.9, which last I looked at is about equal to the total endowment. You know, I know we're a few years out. >> Yeah. And again, this doesn't include commitments or other sources that they
have um you know, have earmarked or obligated. This is purely what's been turned over at this point. >> And and that's not the HUD money is already >> Yes. on another account book. Okay. That's what I was looking for. Thank you. So Sam has another question.
>> So I'll flip it the other way. So we're carrying until 2028. Um we potentially are carrying 8.9, but we may get the pledges may come due and they may be just we don't know what will
happen to that 8.9 between March 2026 and uh somewhere in the spring of 2028, two years from now. Correct. >> Right. Yep. >> Okay. Sam, >> thank you Kathy. Uh I I think you alluded to this on a previous meeting,
Sean, and even today, but of the current uh library portion of the borrowing at 13.8, if I understood correctly, you said there was a 286 uh,000 uh amount per year, but that we also receive interest income on that
while we're holding it pending use of it towards b uh towards project costs. So on the front end we get a little bit of of uh cash for lack of a better term uh from that 13.8
uh and then down the road we um pay it out. Did I say that correctly or am I incorrect? >> Yeah. So when we um and this is sort of this is one contributing factor to why investment income has been so high the last year or two is um uh is that yeah
that we've had a lot of construction loans and sometimes the construction loans are as you know bills are being paid but both of these projects have had some delays in the middle where some funds were you know being held um while those delays happened right so so yes
these funds when we have them they're in our even our um lowest interest rate account, our our money market accounts are in the 3% range right now for interest. Um now it might not be there two months from now. You know the I think we're in a weird time. So a lot of
our thinking is around risk avoidance and um you know just being prudent in that way. But um but yeah, the returns right the investment rates right now are pretty good. I I think that's an important piece of information for those who have interest in the project
financing. Thank you. So, >> um I think what Sean has just given us will mean I will send you all what you saw about the questions as we saw them when I had them. But we can amend some of the library questions because we have
answers to them. What we don't have answers to is uh how the uh the state of the endowment fund the draw on it that they need and if they have to come out for this amount of money. So just for those who are following the project one
idea the trustees had had was getting a bank loan against the endowment and the bank loan would be turned over to the town but it has the same impact of the endowment then has a debt that it's owing. So, I'll just I will reword some
of what you saw because we just got answers to to what's been paid so far and what we're carrying um so that we don't duplicate it. And and as I understood you, Sean, on Monday with the building committee itself, um the
library started out with a little under three million in contingency, but had to draw on some of it for the slate roof and some of the other pieces. So you'll be reporting on uh what all of that looks like on Monday. >> Yeah. So we'll give an update um
on the the project budget, how much has been spent from, you know, the different sources that we have. Um and I know the contingency in particular is an important number. So we'll give an update on what is you know what's available at that point. >> And do they get I haven't tuned in to
any of the discussions, you know, on this. So, uh, on the school building project, we get this monthly accounting that's very colorful and it shows the amount that's not committed to anything.
And to the to the extent we draw down, that's the contingency. To the extent we draw down on it, that that little green bar gets smaller. But most mostly we haven't had to draw very much on it because the there haven't been change orders. There have been a few. Um but so
we does the library get that same kind of um uh accounting. >> Yeah. So I haven't seen it um since I've been on the back on the building committee. I know Bob gets it and looks and reviews it. Um Bob Parent who is
acting, you know, as special projects coordinator and is sort of our our liazison. So Bob reviews it and that's really what we're doing. um is making sure that our numbers line up with what the OPM has for numbers and make sure they all jive properly and particularly that contingency line um and the and the
diff the difference between our numbers which is why I have to work with Bob is when the library when the OPM puts that together they include contracts but they also include um anticipated costs and our accounting system we don't have
there's no anticipated costs we either have contracts or we don't right or invoices paid or not. Um, and so that's where there's a little bit of a delta that we, Bob and I have had to just make sure we're on the same page, which we are. Um, to make sure that what they have in contracts lines up
with what we have in contracts. And then we have to factor in the anticipated costs as well. Um, to make sure that we're on track. >> Lynn, I have to leave. >> Yeah, I just I'm just seeing it's 2:55. So, I want to thank Sean for that quick
run through. And I think we have an we have the workings of an agenda for March 17th and I'll feed that back to people. So Lynn Lynn has left us. So if there aren't any other questions um then um I
will make a motion to adjourn and thank you everyone for the attention to a lot of uh quick questions rolling through you. But but you'll get my list tonight and then you'll get the memos reconstituted the way Anna suggested
with a tone to them on and when they're due. Um and allowing for plenty of room to explain things rather than just use the numbers to tell a story. Uh and since I came to the meeting with all of
those, if anyone has anything to add, they should just send them to me and I'll incorporate them in. particularly on the town side once you see the town list so that when we come back together on the 17th. So I make a motion to adjourn at 2:57
p.m. >> Is there a second? >> I'll second that. >> All right. Sam >> I. >> Kathy say yes. Tom >> May I? >> Anna >> I. >> We are adjourned. Thank you, Paul, and thank you, Sean, for sticking with us.
>> Kathy, >> I forgot an announcement that I'll make. It's not relevant to this meeting, but um G is interviewing candidates for finance on March 10th uh for the for the resident member roles. So, if folks want to tune in for that, it'll be March 10th. Our meetings are at 6:30. And I
apologize. Um I'll email that to the committee. It's logistical in nature, so I think I can email it out to everybody. >> Perfect. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Goodbye, everyone. in Q.