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or recording. >> Good afternoon everyone. Today is the June 2nd meeting of the finance committee and as everyone knows the only item um is to vote on financial orders

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and finish the finance committee's report to the council on the budget. Seeing that we have a quorum, I'm going to call the meeting to order. And my first uh item of business is to make sure that every

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committee member can hear and we can hear them. So, I'm just going to read out names as I see them on the screen. Lynn >> present. >> Kathy is a yes. Sam >> present. >> Kathleen >> present. >> Counselor Breick >> present.

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>> Tom >> present. Joe >> present. >> And as I said, if just before you came in, Joe, that Anna said she would be about a half hour late, so I'll recognize her when she joins us. Um, if

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it's okay with everyone, I'd like to I think the agenda normally says this as well. We don't have any attendees. I was going to open it up for public comments, but I'm not seeing anyone in the audience right now. So I will not open it up for public comments. If we get

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joined later, we can put public comments at the end as needed. Um so Lynn has agreed to be the manager of the document for this meeting. Um so

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once we um make decisions on the financial orders, she'll be entering what it is we did. Um as you saw the document the draft on the executive summary has there are two financial orders we need to be voting on today.

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One is the operating budget and one is the capital budget and we can um include discussion on what those are in the executive summary or in the body of the text. Uh the other is to finalize the um

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report and several people already sent in some edits and I thank you very much for that. I saw one thing that I thought was missing in the executive summary. We didn't have a paragraph on the elementary schools that they're facing both an increase in preschool costs and

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the cost of the academy. So I've drafted a paragraph and Lynn can show that to you. And then Kathleen had wisely flagged a sentence I wrote in the education about administrative overhead in the academy being high compared to what we thought. So I rewarded that

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because it was the expectation of savings was if it was in a full middle school a fully integrated. So I just fix deleted that and rewrote it. So those are too substantive. Everything else were some missing words or some words that didn't make sense you know stray

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words. So they were pure copy edits. So and you know that so those are the two changes that weren't in the document you saw that Lynn sent out I believe yesterday morning um midm morning. So, what I'd like to do is open it right

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away for a discussion. And to get the ball rolling, I will make a motion um regarding the financial orders. And I I will start with the capital budget. Um, and so on the capital budget, I'm

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going to make a motion as the order now reads that I move that we recommend to the council that they approve appropriation and transfer order FY27-05A, an order appropriate appropriating funds

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for a portion of the town's capital program, equipment, building, and facilities as uh presented. Is there a second to that motion? I'll call you on a second, Sam. Is there a second? >> Second, Griezmer.

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>> Second. So, now I'm opening the floor for discussion. I wasn't truncating discussion. So, it's starting first with the capital budget. >> Kathy, Anna has joined us. >> Say pardon. >> Anna has joined us. >> Kathy, sorry.

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>> Hi, Anna. We can we now know we can hear you. So >> perfect. >> You you've started um so I'm I'm starting with the two financial orders, Anna. And last week we voted the regional budget. So that's already been taken care of. And at this point we just have we're not adjust the whole

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operating budget and the capital budget. >> Excellent. Just just two minor things. Thank you. >> Just the two minor things. Uh several million dollars. So, I [clears throat] open the floor with a recommendation to the council to approve the capital

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budget financial order, which is FY2705. It's been seconded, but now this is open for discussion. And Sam's hand is up and Jill's hand is up. Sam, >> uh, thank you, Kathy. So, um,

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yeah, I if any counselor such as myself wanted to, uh, make a motion to alter any of a budget such as the elementary school budget, my understanding is it needs to be offset. Uh, and such an

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offset would need to occur from a budget such as the capital budget. >> That's correct. That's correct. >> Okay. So, um, so therefore, I I don't know that I should make a motion now or not since we're talking about the

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capital budget, but my, uh, recommendation >> and just just so I I think for the finance committee, we could make it in combination and then go back to each of the orders separately. So, I understand it's awkward to do it this way, but go ahead. Um

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>> well my recommendation we spoke the other meeting about some of the implications of the current changes in the school uh with the new school opening with the um Chestnuts Freed Academy and with the uh discrepancies

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between the superintendent administration's uh numbers on uh specials and interventionists versus the school committee uh in thinking about our tight financial situation. about the burden that exists uh this year. Uh, I wanted

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to increase the school budget. Uh, and I would be open to different suggestions, but what I wrote down was to increase the school budget by $182,000. uh with the request that the funds be used to hire 2.5 full-time employee math

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and reading interventionist coaches and further that the capital improvement program cash capital for new projects be reduced by 182,000 so offsetting the increase. So, the substantive change that I'm in favor of

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and suggesting and uh for the committee is to increase the elementary school budget to essentially hire or allow funds and make the recommendations for 2.5 u math and reading interventionist

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positions given the discussions uh and uh the opinions that I referenced and others uh talk about at their past meeting. So that's what I have to say. >> Okay. So just I just want to make sure and I think we we discussed this.

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>> We can include that in some wording but we cannot dictate where the money goes. So that will be that will be decided between the superintendent and the school committee. >> So that that's the I understand what you're saying. The reason you came up with that number was was the

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interventionists. Um >> I believe we can make the request. Yeah, >> we can't dictate what occurs. My understanding is we should reference the intent of the reason for the uh any changes and similarly ensure that any

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such changes as an offset. So I think it's the intent would be to communicate clearly >> okay >> in the motion that this is the dollar amount but this is the reason why >> okay >> and this is what we're requesting of the school committee. we we can we'll get

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down to the uh you know what we can and can't do in the motion but yes um we can do that and so I just and then Jill I am coming to you so Sam just the one other thing you're trying to match the number there is $69,000 already in the budget that hasn't been

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allocated in the school because of what the town manager so if you're just trying to match 182 you don't have to go as high as 182 that's just I'm making that as an observation. >> Uh are you indicate so you're indicating

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that there's currently 69,000 that has yet to be assigned to any of the areas. >> Right. Exactly. 69,000 l 69,471. >> 371

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>> 300. Okay. So there's that amount. So if you're trying to match that, you don't need that much. It's just I I'm not saying that you should amend what you just did, but but if you're trying to match that you've provided more is my comment.

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>> Uh I hear what you're saying and I'd be interested in hearing what other members of the committee have to say regarding the topic. >> So let's let's just go through everyone's comments first and then we'll settle on if we have a motion we if we

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want to vote on them separately or not. So Jill's hand is up. So, the motion on the floor is to increase by 182 and decrease by 182. >> Jill, just Kathy, >> sorry. >> Pardon?

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>> Was there a second? >> Um, uh, is there a second? Sorry. Is there a second uh for Sam's motion? It sounds like that motion fails for lack of a sec. >> Okay.

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>> I just had a process more of a process question and maybe we can revisit Sam's motion. I I just I the the conversation about increasing the elementary school's line item

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feels like it would probably be fairly robust and would include maybe different thoughts and ideas around what line items we might want to decrease. And I just wonder if it's if it's useful

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to have that discussion first before having a narrow discussion around one possible line item to decrease. Is there any way if others agree? I don't know if there's a way that we could maybe have that discussion first. you know, so we have something between zero ch zero

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increase from what's already in the budget and 52,000 whatever that you know once we've subtracted out the 69,000 that that's the range that we have. Um, so I'm I I

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want to make sure we we have to report out to we have to get to yes today and we do not have to have everyone voting for the same thing and we'll report what we voted on. Um, so if you have Jill, so

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maybe so Sam has put on the table 182 with a rationale. do you have uh a different number and a reasoning behind it? And maybe we can start that way. Um before we get to formal motions, um

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>> I'm just wondering if if if that's the case, do we want to start with the 502939 and then have discussion around what number and where it would come from

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like within the starting with the full amount just as a framing. I I have no I I'm I'm trying not to be a chair with an iron hand here. Um so if you started with that amount then we

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should take votes on that amount. Um we can see what the why the r the rationale would be to go where the school committee went. Um we're not put going to be putting more money in than than they asked for. So, um I I

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>> can I just ask because we're still in the discussion of the capital improvement program? >> No. And as I said, I think we can do them together, you know, rather than and so once once we >> let's put it this way, I think once we

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settle on at least a majority of the committee with a a number, okay, then we can go back to each of the financial orders and write what it is we did. The council will have to do them not

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together. We can do them in a motion that's more a combination and then talk about how they change. The council has to take a separate vote on the two. The operating budget needs a nine well a twothird. So assuming that all 13 people

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there will be nine people vote. The cut the reduction just needs a seven. So they will have to be separate when it goes to the council. So we can we can describe what we voted on once we decide what we settled on. Um Sam

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>> uh I was just going to make comment the reason I made my motion or suggestion to the committee was because uh it was initiated with a motion or discussion of the capital planning program which

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was a concrete action. So I felt the need to uh bring it up at that time. I would be I I think it makes sense to just have a general discussion prior to motions uh regarding what it is that we might want to do, but I raised my motion

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in the context of decisions were about to get made and I wanted to make sure that uh my thoughts were uh presented. >> Okay. [clears throat] So, what I'd like to do is proceed in a way that we can we can take a vote and make a decision. So,

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um I think you know Jill, we if you want to start at the at the full amount, which is somewhere I've got the the exact number written down, 52,000 um increase. The superintendent had it in hers as well. If you want to start

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there, the question is, do we vote on that? And the rationale would be that's what the school committee voted at. So, I don't want to have we had a long discussion on Thursday about this around it without wanting to take a vote. So, I think today we need to take a vote and

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I'm seeing that Sean's hand is up. Go ahead, Sean. >> Yeah. Um, sorry. And I think this is what councelor Bravik said. I I think if that's where you want to start, I think the next step would be what is it that you want to reduce? And I don't know if councelor Breivik had initial thoughts

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or questions or if others wanted to weigh in, but I think the next step would be that's what you want to increase then where's the reduction coming from and I to your point Kathy I don't think you have to keep it just to the capital for now. I think you can talk about wherever and then if part of its capital then you'll amend the

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capital order at that time. Um but I think the next step would be what would be reduced. >> Okay Jill. So, why don't you you if you want to start there, why don't you start there? >> Okay. Cuz my my main hang-up is like hearing Sam's motion. I'm curious like cuz it's it was just within the capital

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improvement program, like were there other areas that you could see reducing or is that the entirety of the motion? And so, if we're talking about if we're talking about the increase first, the decrease may come from different

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areas. Um, and so it just feels like a better framing of it. So I'm happy to make a motion with a Yeah, I don't know. I I maybe I just need a second to think

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about how to frame it. >> Okay, Sam. >> Uh, Council Berick inquired what the, you know, what the thought was that it was limited to capital. My recollection of our discussion uh last week was that

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uh it's problematic to seek to reference quote unquote free cash uh although cash is being assigned to the capital program. And uh the takeaway was that if we wanted to have reductions,

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the areas of opportunity uh if it wasn't within the specific education budget uh would be capital program or OPED. It was my recollection. Uh so that's the

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thought process behind my motion. I did not want to uh personally uh recommend a reduction in the OPED uh just because I see it as a long-term uh whether or not there are other areas within the um elementary school budget that's open for

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discussion. Uh if there's a third area that I'm missing, I'd be glad to uh hear information uh what other buckets uh funds might be removed from. Thank you.

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>> You know, maybe I'll use to try to move this along. Let me let me try to Well, Jill is gathering her thoughts. Um Okay, Jill, if you're Have you gathered your thoughts? I'm calling you. >> Would you Yeah. Do you have further

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guidance or >> No, it's not further guidance. It's it's I was going to render my opinion on this um without a motion, but I'm happy to hear from you first. >> I'm happy to make a motion

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that I have some draft wording for that would increase the elementary school's expenditure line item. I I have it the way I have it is broken into three motions. So it's like the motion to increase and then two motions for different areas to decrease.

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I'm just going to say there they include the full amounts. So with assuming there will be room for discussion and amendments of these motions and I just wonder if that is a helpful way to set it to set it up so that we

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can have discussion within a motion and and amendments. Um happy to read what I have if that makes sense. Go ahead and read it. >> Okay. So, I move to recommend that the town council increase the expenditure line item 2704 elementary schools in the FY27 budget

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uh from 29,478590 to 29981529 to correspond with the budget passed by the Ammer school committee. This is intended to restore $52,939 in addition to the $69,371 already restored

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to and then this would be our recommendation knowing full well that at a certain point this is out of our hands to restore the line items regular instruction, support services, and health insurance uh with the intention of restoring specials and

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interventionist salaries and benefits that were eliminated. in the town manager's budget. So that's just the that's the if we wanted to go that is all in >> and then the difference between the two. >> Jill, can you read the last part real

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quick on what was eliminated in the town manager's budget? >> The specials and interventionist salaries and benefits. >> Okay. Yeah, >> that's per the >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's I heard it wrong. >> Okay. And and did you have where you would get that

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>> 52,000? So then again for discussion purposes um I move to recommend that the town council decrease the expense line item 2705A capital improvement program in the FY27

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budget >> um for a reduction of 302939 with a recommendation to the town manager that reductions come from non-essential capital projects that could be deferred for a And then I move to recommend that the

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town council request for the town manager to submit an appropriation order that would reduce the capital reserves allocation from free cash by an additional 200,000 with a recommendation to the town manager that this reduction is used to

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fund the increase in line item 2704 elementary schools. So essentially it's saying part of it coming from the capital improvement program, part of it coming from reserves, which we sort of explored a bit at the last meeting. If there >> we were told, we were told we can't do

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that. >> We can't do the second part. >> We can't do the second part. >> You wouldn't be able to vote the the first part until the second part was completed. That's the the issue. What you wouldn't have the funds to appropriate for the first part. So we could reduce the capital

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improvement program line item, but we can't recommend that appropriation order now for the free cash. >> So the all appropriation orders have to be have to come from the town manager. So you can recommend it, but then the town manager would have to submit it and it would have to go through the process

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to be approved and then once approved then you would actually have that funding source um for what you described. And that's why I >> we were also told we have to open up budget hearings again as well because it would be a new financial order.

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>> Okay. Um and for simplicity's sake, I suppose we could just have a discussion of well do do others see other sources? I know OPED did come up. Um, does anyone want to speak to other

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sources of or areas to decrease? >> Sam, do you want to speak to other areas to decrease? No, I was just going to lend support to the thought process of seeking uh an appropriation, but uh when

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I raised that the other week, it was made clear that that's not something that could occur in the timeliness of our current budget discussions. then, you know, it would be nice in the future if there were a greater time frame of uh consideration. So, there'd be a little

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extra time on the uh conclusion to potentially accomplish that. But, uh I don't have a recommended other source. To me, it's something else in the elementary budget. It's something in the

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capital program or uh OPED. And uh and my understanding is that uh if we make recommendations in the capital program, it's up to the uh I believe the town manager to adjust the requested budget.

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Um and a good portion of that budget looking at all the line items is pre-ordained for debt service. Uh so I assume it would be the new project's amount that it would have to come from. Uh so that's just commentary. It's not a

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recommendation. >> Yeah. I'm I'm going to speak to Jill's concept. Um and Sam, the financial order for capital is only cash. The debt's not in it. We're No, there was no new debt. So, it is it's only cash. It's only

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cash. So, >> I guess I was just looking at the line items in the budget. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. It's only cash. So, the capital budget does have debt in it, but this order is just appropriating that. So, I'm um I'm going to go back to um what's

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the rationale for all of this? I think uh the increase in the preschool is a required increase because of uh the projected increase in IEP kids and we have to do it. So, it's mandatory. So I

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was comfortable with the same level of of increase because oddly enough the interventionist and the preschool increase are almost the same number. One is 182 and one is 183. 182 versus

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183,000. And so that plus since there's already 69,000 in it, subtracting that off that it's an increase of, you know, call it $120,000 that would be added back. Um and I also

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thought uh the why um when I have talked to people about their top priority the interventionists the math and and reading came up the top in terms of school committee thinking um for both

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what they've done for the children and there was actually less agreement on some of the specials for example the librarian said she would prefer to have a pareducator rather than another librarian and there is some splitting of

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time of the others. Um, and so I was less convinced that all the other pieces, the music program is still a pretty robust music program because the instrumental and the percussionists are still there. And it was impressive to

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see of the 140ish sixth graders that 120 of them are in that program. I mean it is a program that clearly is a thriving program within the elementary school and it's being continued. So my my to the extent we were talking about adding I

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was going to be comfortable in that 183 minus the 69 you know and then when I looked at the capital budget I could see where that might come from without decimating some of the pieces of it you know so in terms of where it might come

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from. So I'm and I will not be voting for the full amount the 500 and2 Jill Jill read us the number with precision. I will not be voting for that. I think

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among many reasons is the new school space alone. The there's one music room, there's one math room, there's one spec special uh tech room, and uh there's a desk for one person in those rooms. I

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mean, it was always thought that they would operate with fewer um when when we went from three schools to schools and the sixth graders are getting access to some of the programs at the middle school, you know. So, it's an

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interesting thing that we we don't have a complete standalone academy. Some of this is is drawing on middle school resources and except for the scheduling in the middle school where the schedules have been deliberately set so that you

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that so seventh and eighth graders and sixth graders don't cross in the hallway at the same time. If the scheduling was set differently, there's potential access to math uh to tech, music, art programs. So it's not a it could never

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happen. So it could happen. [cough] So I was comfortable Sam at the place you started and I don't think there's a strong argument for going all the way to 500. So that's just I was going to come in with my reaction to the the two ends.

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Um and and you started stam at the point I don't think there's something less than that that addresses what I heard as the top priorities when this was being discussed. So now I'm throwing it back in because we have the range of the one

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in the 180 range or 180 minus 69 and Jill's gone to the full and council Brevik and then Kathleen's hands are both up. I just want to quickly offer a little information on the specials piece and um

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then I'll go to the back of the line, but I because I do think there's a I think there's a middle ground too. Um, I think we learned that with the very high case load for the single specialist teachers

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now covering both elementary schools coming together, single teachers teaching 35 blocks a week, having to transfer between had um between Amethyst Brook and Chestnut Street Academy,

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one prep block per day for all of those classes. Presumably, they would eat lunch. It's it's a lot packed into one day and so additional funds would supportive

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positions paras for those specialist teachers as well understanding it can't we can't have two teachers teaching in the same classroom and the structural challenges of that I think what the school committee was able to offer was with additional funds that they there

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would be additional ways to support those singular teachers now carrying an immense weight during this transitional year. Um, including support for adaptive specials that are critical so that kids in special ed programming

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can access specialist education at all. Um, and so I'm in favor of restoring some amount in addition to what Sam requested. And I I do think, you know, it it sounds like there's a lot of support for the interventionists. I'm pleased to see

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that and certainly support that. I would like to see us go a little bit higher to show support for a set of teachers that is going to be extremely stressed this year in this transition with an immense workload. Um, with students who are going through a big

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change, I think it's important that we we allow some funds to give them the opportunity to staff that up appropriately. Kathleen. >> Yeah. I mean, I just I am also I think

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somewhere in a middle ground, not because I think the schools don't need the money, but because it's difficult to identify enough funding to get to the larger amount. Um, I agree that the

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interventionists rose to the rose to the surface of the highest concern I think from everyone we heard from. I think if you spend time talking to educators in our schools, they are understandably very stressed about next year, about all

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the change, about all the work that is going into the change and about wanting to see this succeed for everybody. Um, and I think, you know, I am I think the specialist teachers are are a concern

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because, you know, it's hard to have a middle ground of a half of a music teacher or a half of a um art teacher. I believe that in the past they were um part-time um some of them and and it didn't work

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because um they have really hard time attracting and retaining staff. So, I mean, I think ideally maybe that's where we would be. Um, but that's that doesn't seem to be a possibility. So, you know, and and to the point of could we reduce

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the capital for things that could wait a year, I I am concerned with what the capital plan looks like next year and and it's already um not balanced. So, um it's, you know, this is a difficult conversation.

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I think I am somewhere in in a middle ground. But again, I just want to emphasize that is not because I think the schools don't need [laughter] all the money. Um it's just there's there's really tough decisions to be made here. >> Um I'm just see Sam I want to hear from

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other people too. And just so in since we're getting down to dollars, the if you take the 69,000 and I'm I'm not going to worry about the 69 and change and you subtract it from the uh the um

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interventionists, you need you only need 114,000 more, you know, in terms of that the same math deal did. So in terms of in terms of a middle ground um you said go a bit

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higher Jill you know beyond just the interventionist. So that's what I I want to hear people I'm I'm trying to drive toward a number rather than um abst ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab ab abstract and just to put in on the librarian

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the librarian's preference was a par educator in the library with her and the superintendent wasn't clear to me but she said that was about $55,000 less expensive than a full librarian. You know it was the number she put we asked,

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you know. So the librarian in her speaking talks about the amount of time with that many kids she's going to spend shelving books and not spending time with kids. And so the way the power would be really was augmenting her time

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one-on-one with kids. So Sam then Jill and uh we haven't heard from Lynn and we haven't heard from Anna. >> Thank you Kathy. I did want to reference that I saw Deb Leonard in the audience with a hand raised. Uh but in terms of a

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comment on the situation with the case loads for specials and everything else, it is troubling um the situation. I have great concerns over the transition to a new school and

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the new chestnut. Uh but I also have concerns in that [clears throat] we don't we can allocate funds but we don't know where those funds are going to go. Um the superintendent did make it clear that uh she would spend the money

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where or you know place the resources where she felt um would be most appropriate. uh and so we may wish to have additional funding whether it be or or changes even from a librarian or

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other things but we don't know uh what's going to occur after we make our recommendations and assuming the fin the town council votes accordingly. Uh it seems that we all certainly agree the uh most urgent issue is the [snorts]

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intervention is for math and reading and the cascading effect that those carry going forward. Um Kathy, you did identify some potential uh efficiencies in uh how expenses have been represented in the budget external

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to specials. But again, we don't control any of that. So I'm torn uh because I I do feel that we need to support the schools in this critical time period. Uh but there's some element of uh lack of control on our end in terms of what's

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going to happen once the budget gets out there. Um and I think that's a significant point. We can allocate we could recommend more bonds. The town council might vote it, but we don't really know what the superintendent's going to do with those funds. I think we can have a level of confidence that if

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we uh increase the um recommend increasing funds for the purpose of interventionist coaches. Uh and at the last meeting the school uh committee chair uh did indicate that they have the ability to uh choose the cost centers

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but that that's my thoughts that are going through my head right now. >> Okay. >> Okay. So moving on, Jill, >> I I feel like this question of will the schools do what is recommended has come up a few times in the finance

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discussions and I think it is probably important to put it to rest so that we're all on the same page. It's my understanding that the school committee brought us both a past budget that they passed at the school committee level as

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well as other qu questions that they've answered, guidance, memos, information that is really explicit in what they would do with additional funds if they received them. And then Deb did join us at the last meeting to clarify even

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further that the super based on consulting with legal counsel that the superintendent would have to allocate funds as designated by this budget approved by the school committee. If it's helpful to maybe have Bridget if

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Bridget I mean if Deb is here uh and has her hand raised to like to reiterate that. But I I think that is what we heard at the last meeting. And so I keep seeing it come up again this well we don't know how they're going to spend it. And I just I feel like it's misleading in our discussions in our

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conversations if we're making decisions based on that fact. I don't I don't think it should be a reason to hold back in providing support to a department that needs support. Uh because we we don't really say that about any other department and

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any other conversations that we have about other budgets either. So I I just wanted to say that and I have some math calculations too, but I'll go to the back of the line for that. >> Okay. Okay. So let's do Anna. You know, so this it's probably somewhat of a gray

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area, but Deb just said did say it comes back and and they're also at the table. It's not just a black hole. the superintendent verbally told us she didn't necessarily have the same set

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of priorities. But as I said, all we can do is come up with a number and then watch where it goes. And we do you know on the other budgets and then on a you know on the other budgets we're not explicitly voting on X Y or Z in the

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municipal budget but we have been presented a budget book with those line items and the manager adheres to them you know so that it doesn't it doesn't like that suddenly uh the fire department moves over to the DPW those

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are those are adhered to so we are voting on the whole with an understanding of what the pieces are we're not voting on the pieces. We don't have individual call centers. So, Anna, >> so I um I'm still catching up a bit because I wasn't here for the past few

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meetings. So, I apologize if I'm a little bit quieter or slower on the uptake today. I'm I'm desperately looking at past reports and everything. I understand looking at the specifics for the topic of conversation and I often feel every year I feel like finance committee and the council get stuck in a bit of an impossible

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situation where we are talking specifics and yet we are not responsible for the specifics and for me I get really uncomfortable when FINCOM and the town council starts getting into the specifics of the teaching staff and the and any staff at the schools. I'm really

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apprehensive about setting that precedent. Um, I mean, I think that it's been set, but I would like to undo it. I I don't think that it's appropriate, and I get really really worried when we start delving into that territory. And on the flip side, I fully understand why it's helpful for us to understand the

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minutia of it in order to have our discussion. So, I just I know that that's a really tough spot, but and I know that at the end of the day, we have nothing more than a request, but I generally am uncomfortable with us even making that request to the schools. Um, so I just wanted to state that. uh we

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have an elected school committee for a reason and yet at the same time we're uncomfortable or not we're uncomfortable I'm uncomfortable with uh with how detailed we get into this um and I won't get on to my BCG hill that I constantly die on on that topic right now. Kathleen's statement resonated strongly

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with me in in terms of finding that middle ground, finding a larger and I think councelor Revik said the same thing about or trying to find a higher number. Um, and recognizing that we're not going to be able to meet maybe the highest number that we want to some of us want to meet. Um, I don't have an exact number yet, Kathy. I know that

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that's what you want. I think that we can get there, but I want to make sure that we don't set ourselves back in other areas in a way that will ultimately cost us more to make up. So when we think about for example cutting from uh capital reserves, we want to think about the impact that that will

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have on our other building projects or and will that ultimately cost us more in the long run. Um that's kind of a part of the conversation that I'd like to have when we start getting into those specifics is what it what are the impacts of this on our uh operations and our projects that we want to make

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forward that we want to move forward on the town end and are we going to cost ourselves more money? I mean, I'm I'm I'm saying that a bit scarred from past building projects that the cost has escalated drastically because we put it off. Um, and so I think we need to have a be realistic about the impacts of that

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in the long run, too. >> Um, so I'm going to call on Sean first, Jill, because he's just going to come usually comes in with um useful information, guidance. >> Yeah, I don't know how useful it'll be, but um I was kind of going to say what

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Anna said, two points. one um just wanted to make clear if you reduce capital this year then next year gets harder right if we want to get back to 10 and a half% because we believe that's the funding needed to complete the DPW

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project and still have I wouldn't even say ample you know uh you know some funding for other capital needs we we've looked at the plan there are deficits in those out years it just makes next year that much harder um and next year is not a year where we'll be consolidating buildings right? This is the year where

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we're consolidating buildings. I think it's harder to make uh adjustments based on consolidation in the year you're not consolidating. Um so, so that's just one point is if and that's not to sway the vote. It's just I think the committee uh

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and its budget guidelines will have to consider its priorities. If we're chipping away at capital every year, because I know last year we didn't get to 10 and a half% either. Um I think then we just need to really understand the council's priorities around capital going forward. Um, and then the second piece also kind of related to what Anna

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said. I think typically I I agree it's you don't necessarily want to get into the weeds of what the funding is for when it comes to the schools. I think what's different this year is that the schools came in with a request over the council's guidelines, right? And so if you're if the request is going to exceed

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the council's guidelines, you sort of have to understand why. And so I think that's why it's a little bit unique this year um and maybe last year as well um that you kind of find yourself in this place because um ultimately again these are your guidelines that uh we put in

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the budget >> council breick just to I totally hear that about not wanting to cannibalize the capital budget and I I've found and I I feel like Anna maybe mentioned this early on in this process or the idea of

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maybe shifting some of the timelines for some of these processes. Like it would have been pretty helpful to know this gap when we were going through JCPC for example like we you know I feel like the order makes it a little bit difficult and now we're here at the last minute at

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the finish line and trying to like work backward. So I definitely look forward to the budget guidelines process this coming year. hopefully being a place that we can have some of these conversations earlier on and make sure

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that we're being, you know, we're we're replenishing funds uh where we can. Um definitely being part of that JCPC process, I definitely see and understand the challenges with capital as well. Um,

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and I I do think, you know, I I found it to be a really interesting process getting to ask all the departments so many under the hood questions and really get to know and understand how departments operate in ways that we don't touch and we don't want to mess with at all, but just

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trying to build our understanding of how this all works. Um, you know, and I and I don't think I would support if we came out of left field and said, you know, we actually think that you should do something that that the committee has decided that the schools should do. But really

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what we're doing is saying they've come to us with this gap. We're trying to hear and listen to what they're saying and honor it as opposed to coming up with our own different solutions to how we should educate kids. So, I think that's an important distinction, too. Um, and I do think

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that cuts to to specifically the interventionist, but I think the adaptive specials are really important to keep in mind here, too. These are things that keep kids from needing IEPs or from need spec the interventionist specifically

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um prevent expenses down the road in a big way. special ed services are really costly and the intervention program in our elementary schools is really strong um and really needed as a line of defense. Um so I think we don't always

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think of things this way but it is something that will cause additional costs later on. Um I am happy to propose a middle ground number. Um, which the only thing I'm struggling

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with is that in in the numbers that I had, there's a percentage of this or a portion of it that's in health insurance. And I find it to be really difficult to know how much of that if we're reducing like if it's the full amount and I have the full amount of the

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positions and the full amount of the health insurance. I don't know what to do with that health insurance number if we're reducing because they're different positions, different percentages. um for benefits. So the number I landed on

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um including the full amount of health insurance is 36,534 which would be basically to include the interventionist positions um and then half of the other request.

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So basically cutting the regular instruction increase of 392 810 in half. Um but if anyone wants to weigh in on a maybe better way to do a calculation, but I feel like that is a middle ground ballpark that

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would allow us to preserve the interventionist positions and allow some funds to provide support staff. And I think that's a key piece that not adding additional

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teachers but the as Kathy spoke about the librarian and not the so adding additional supports for specialist teachers in some manner. Lynn, >> I want to appreciate what Anna said

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earlier and to sit here and say, "I [clears throat] want to do this much because I want this and I want to do this much because I want that." Even the school committee can weigh in, but circumstances change and at some

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point the superintendent can come back to the school committee and say, "I want you to envision it this way and therefore this is how I'm now recommending that the line items be split." Excuse me. I'm just my voice is not what

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it should be. So, and I I'm just going to be straightforward. I'm having a hard time supporting any increase because the superintendent came to us with a budget that was on the guidelines.

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And while I can sit here and I can say, gee, I understand that we have this situation with the preschool or I understand that the specialists each, you know, some of them

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could use a para. I have no basis to know that in fact that's the way the money will be spent. In previous years, we've heard about how many teachers we're going to lose. And every time we looked at the natural number the next

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year, we didn't lose any. So budgets are fluid. I will definitely not go to 500. I I'm frankly on the fence as to whether I go with anything

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and part and now I go to the reasons why and capital. Um we had a group of people who spent a great deal of time looking at capital and those same people understand what's going to happen next year. Earlier this year, we voted to

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give the middle school money for the auditorium roof, which meant we took it from the roads. And I don't know about you, but I keep hearing about the roads, too. So,

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we spent a lot of time putting together guidelines. I think they were some of the most well thought through guidelines I've seen. They included opportunities for adjustment if possible. Those adjustments were made including adding

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back the 1% to the school's base which originally were not in the guideline originally not part of the money. And we're sitting here saying, gee, I'm not even hearing consensus among this

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group as to what would be the tagline that goes with the restoration. I'm hearing some people say the interventionists. I'm hearing some people say the specials. So part of me wants to say, and guess

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what? We don't have any say. all we can do is put more money forward, which we've done in the past. Um, so I'm I'm torn. I haven't made up

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my mind. Um, but I definitely know I would not go to the full 500. And I'm not sure where I would even want to see um the peeling back on the actual

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capital program. Thank you. Sorry about my voice, >> Kathleen. >> Um, yeah, and I apologize. There's a dog barking in front of my house just as I can speak. Um, you know, I think for me, like specifics

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aside, I heard from the superintendent, from school committee, and from the public, if you watched the school committee's hearings, that there was a consensus that the schools are struggling to

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provide services to our kids with the resources that they have. So without getting into specifics, like to me that's to me that was consistent. Um I think the superintendent put forth a budget that adhered to guidelines.

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You know, I think she was clear that she could use more money. Um, you know, I think when we've heard from the fire department that they were struggling to operate within the confines of their budget, you know, there was resources

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that we found when there DPW is having trouble operating. You know, we're we're trying to find resources. So I you know I it's not that I think resources are unlimited but I when the school committee the superintendent and people who have their

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kids in the schools tell us that they don't feel the resources are adequate to me that's that's something that I want to at least listen to. I don't know where to go with that but that you know that feels real to me.

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Okay. So now we we right now we have a range that starts from no increase to 182 or 183 in that name name to 360ish

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to 500 and um I would not be able to vote for the higher your mid-range Jill I don't think I can go higher than where Sam started.

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Uh so I don't know um that and I came into all of this with uh more like Lynn's position no higher. Um so I always expected this was going to be a

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difficult year and unfortunately the way the academy evolved uh there wasn't full integration into a sixth through 8th grade and it was somewhat out of everybody's control because of a desi decision. This wasn't that people decided this was a good

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thing to do. Um and we aren't even looking at a budget with the lease in it this year. Remember, we found an artful way of paying for it out of other resources. So, next year's budget will be at least 100 115,000

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more than we're looking at right now. And when I when I look at the budget stress, um, we don't have a way of sustaining expenses that go up faster than revenues. And it's unfortunate, you

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know, unless we have a whole department that we think is not working well. We we don't have an easy place to go. And as as Anna said, those reserves, we we can't that we got guidance, Anna, that um in this process,

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we can increase if we decrease in the line items that are in front of us in financial orders. We can't go to oh take it from free cash or for reserves. That would start the process over again. We

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know that in the fall to the extent uh the budget comes in with more than the the pre-cash the 5% we try to maintain as a cushion we can appropriate that into capital. We know

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we can do that. We don't know where that is because this year it's running much slender. We have a road plan that wants to take all of it. So if people haven't looked at the road plan, one of the lines is pre-cash every single year taking, you know, hoping that there is

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some and that road plan doesn't doesn't fix our roads. It helps them not deteriorate worse. So there is a demand even for what happens when that comes in. So, I can't vote for something

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that's much higher than the 180 range. And and I whittleled it down to 115 or so when I subtracted that they already there is already another 69,000 that school committee and superintendent will have to figure out where they put that money. Um,

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so that's and and Anna, I wasn't going to be specific about where the money went. I was just thinking that voting for something that's too small that it doesn't even buy anything would would not help [laughter] be helpful. Um, and the one thing I could see that

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was really out of people's control is a requirement that preschool expand and they had to add staff to do that because of the IEPs that is could not have been known at the beginning of the year. It was, you know, or could not have been easily known. It's it's like looking at

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what incoming three-year-olds and four-year-olds look like. You don't know until you talk to them. Um and they're two when you know the year before. These are really little kids. So that to me was uh this is really not was not in

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anybody's control and that added to the stress of the budget. So that's that's where I am. Lynn is at zero. I'm at something much nearer to the 150 or less because I they already have 69. And Jill

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came in with her midpoint which is um uh three-fifths of the way to to 500,000 is another way of looking at it. You know, so it was with a and again we wouldn't be able to say how that money where that money would go. It just it it was it's

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subst it's substantial. Um, so that's um and we can, you know, I'm just trying to figure out whatever we decide as a group and I will get all the resident members to vote support or

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not support. We can report out if those are our three ranges. We can report out uh that we considered all three of them and we can vote on each of them. So we can actually have a vote on each of them, you know, on a from no increase

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all the way to if we want to take the full 500 out, that's fine either way, but we can vote on all of them. Um, it's much you didn't watch JCPC where we had a discussion about police vehicles and we went from eliminate all three to

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eliminate two to eliminate one. you know, we just took a vote on each of those and we got to a point uh the the sweet spot was one and including the police said we could live with one less. So that was helpful. So that's that was

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the way I would propose to do it rather than we've taken an hour. It's 2 o'clock. Um, so we can um if people and Jill, I see your hand is up, but I'm talking about then taking a vote on

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uh no change, you know, documents as is to the I'll call it 183 for now, Sam, since that's where you came in. I won't talk about anything else to Jill's at 360. You know, you can just get I want to just do a rounding because if we get

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too precise, it looks like we actually know what we're buying. >> 306. >> Can I? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I just my hand is raised just to revise that number. Is that okay? Can I do that now just quickly? >> Sure. >> Because I reduced just p based on like equal percentages. I also reduced the

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health insurance. So get to like as much as close as I could get and it comes down to 289096. >> Okay. So why why don't why call it 290 then I'm just saying you it we can't be precise about this. So you can just say

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this was a okay so 0 183 and 290. Okay, those were 290, right? And then and then take it out of in each of these. It would be the two that take it out. It

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would be taken out of capital. And I would recommend that we don't say where out of capital it comes from. Um there would just have to be some judgment. So, one last thing, and Joe, I do want to hear from you. Kathleen mentioned next year's capital

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budget. It's in major deficit and uh one hope is that a few of the things on the list will secure grants like the new Crocker Farm playground. Um that would ease it, but we pushed off almost all the vehicle purchases this year and most

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of them last year. So, we've got this big cluster next year and we're hoping there'll be movement on DPW as a building so that the debt is built into the payments, you know, so this it's a

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really stressed capital budget a year from now and we got we got to balance this year. Joe and unmute. >> Yeah, thank you. Uh uh thank you Kathy. Um this question is probably kind of for Sean just just kind of some points of

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clarification. Um is our capital budget right now is it around 10.3 million? Is that is that accurate? >> Um the full >> the full plan was about 11 and a half is what we're spending next year. That includes chapter 90 funds which are grants. Um I think the 10.3 is if you

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back out the chapter 90. >> Um but yeah, that that's in the range. So is this where we're just a points of clarification is this where we would be thinking um in this where we would pull that money from >> if you can pull up the capital order um

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we can see it the cash part of that Joe is 4,590 and893 >> and that's where we're talking about pulling from that. That's the piece we're talking about because the rest of it is debt service or andor something

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like the road money where we you know the road money is the road money. Um right >> so and then another p you know two big pieces of it debt service on the library and the new the new school is being financed with debt service. So the the

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order we're looking at is just for the cash part of it and it's in the under $5 million. If we were looking at Sam's proposal, we would subtract out what the 183 minus the what 69. So maybe 113,000. So that represents maybe two plus% of

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that four plus million dollars. Is that kind of am I thinking about that correctly? >> Yes. and and you know, if you looked at the list of things that were in the capital budget, >> there are items like uh an expensive

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truck that are over 200,000, but there's also then things like support of um the new planning director as he's dealing with uh what to do with Wildwood, you know. So, it's a range. There's a project list. So, we would leave that to

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the town manager and staff to figure out if we did this, >> right? >> Which which which of those um is someone said less essential, less urgent, you know, could could wait some time but would lead that. But that's what it it's

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on the screen right now. It's it's that amount of money we're talking about. Yeah. >> And we p and we did this last year. I think maybe Sean you maybe you spoke to this that last year we also um moved money out out of this fund. Is that accurate? >> I think it was done before the budget was submitted. So last year the proposal

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for capital was like 10 and a quarter% not 10 and a half%. So we didn't it it was already in the proposal. >> I think I think the guidelines I don't know I wasn't here but I maybe the guidelines set it lower. >> And to even make it more confusing Joe is that that was an early on on how to

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get the regional budget higher and the elementary budget higher. And the only thing that was taken out of capital is they did a recalculation of interest costs and lo and behold it came down by just the right amount. >> So nothing had to be nothing had to be

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cut. It was it was magic. Um it it was kind of magical that uh none of the projects had to because the bond bond interest rates were coming in better than we had originally thought. Um >> Okay.

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Okay, cool. Sorry to backpedal there. I just wanted to get some points of clarification on that. I really appreciate that. Thank you, >> Lynn. Um, I'd like people to be very precise. Is it 183 or is it 183 minus 69?

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>> I recommended 182. >> 182. Okay. 182 >> since Lyn asked for precision. [clears throat] >> Okay. So, just so people know, if it was 182, there is already another 69. So, we

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are in effect um there's 250 worth of money for the school committee and the superintendent to figure out what to do with just just when when you do that number. Um and and Jill's number moved. She did it

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with a here's one base and here's another base. subtract the two and that was the 502 and then she's she's moved between the two. Um so that's so Sam you you want to keep it at the full 182.

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>> I I didn't uh consider one way or the other how the 69,000 was built into all the requests. I simply looked at the uh underscored communications from school committee and others repeatedly about the uh cascading

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effect. >> If you're willing to have me amend amend that, I'd rather make that 182us 69 which is uh one 113 113.

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So call it 120. Just I'm just >> sure >> you know you know just to put so we had a zero a 120 and a 290 um just because because you know to make it clear that and we can write it up there is already

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an extra 69 not extra but beyond what the superintendent had proposed at 385. So >> my my concern is simply that we and I know some people don't want to do this but uh I think the committee should reference

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a request or an intent as to the nature of usage for >> no we can say where that where this number came from in terms of what what it could purchase um and also my my as I

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said my rationale for anything in this range is the preschoolers where this wasn't and it just happens to magically match the cost of the interventionists. So, but Lynn, you were asking where are

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where is the range? So, I think what I'd prefer is it's 0, 120, and 290 if people are okay with that. And then we'll explain that the 120 has another 69 in it.

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>> Yeah. My number is after subtracting. So, that would make our two numbers in the same >> So, they would be in the same kind of math. Yeah. Okay. So, are we at a point that people are

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willing to take a vote on and and in each of these instances it would be coming out of capital? Correct. We we'd be saying it's coming out of capital, Kathleen. >> Yeah. I just wanted to clarify if if if

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we're saying something is coming out of capital, our assumption is that that defaults to the following year, right? Like there's no I feel like at some point we had talked about whether there were would be a possibility at some later date to use free cash for some of

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those purposes. Um I don't remember if we had that conversation here. So, I'm just I I know that none of that can be certain today, but I just wanted to ask about the possibilities and pathways and whether if we say 290, are we basically

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saying, okay, 290 worth of capital is going to wait till next year. >> So, I think what we could say, we could say in the write up and the capital plan has this in it already. We have these um open more than three-year-old appropriations that have a substantial

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amount of money and JCPC when we talked about that the uh Sean had said that they'd be able once the summer is over they'd be able to close them and so this could be a fall decision. So we're not

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necessarily waiting until uh 2027 to make it. I think that's what you're asking. So in a when we we've had when when free cash is certified we get um also closure of old capital

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that can be used for capital you know so we we get those financial orders at the same time um with uh you know where are we on general reserve on the other pieces along with how much goes into uh reparations how much goes into the

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different pieces. So I think that's what your question. It's not waiting 12 months from now, but it means that whatever the money was going to be used for on July 1st won't be available on July 1st. >> Right. And when you're saying we see the

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closed capital like in the budget book we or in the capital improvement plan for this year for FY27, we only see closed capital from FY23 and earlier, right? So, is it your expectation that like we we wouldn't see anything more recent than we would see maybe one more

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year recent or or is it not going to be until next winter that we see >> there? There's there's a page um I'm sorry Sean can probably has memorized in the capital plan there is a table with not closed things that are three years

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old and it adds up to almost a million you know in older than three years. Most of it is in the Wildwood um Fort River, you know, most of it is school. There are a couple other little ones and that was Shannon wanted to wait on that. Um

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and so so it's a substantial amount of money. So this year in this capital order, the second page of the document uh closed 275,356 worth right now. that was uh repurposed

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capital in this JCPC budget. So we found more more money for roads. So I'm saying is that we know already so it's not waiting until next February. We know already there's that piece. We just don't know uh what else we that's a potential

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source on Wildwood um oper uh taking over Wildwood utility and maintenance costs, you know. So, there's some things that aren't in this budget, but does that answer that question? And I see Sean Sand is up. >> Yeah. No, I think that that's helpful. Thank you, >> Sean. Maybe you can help me be more

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precise. >> Um, sure. Uh, two things. Um, yeah. So, every we always look three years and older because capital projects typically take um, you know, in the one to three years range. So, um, if something's earlier than that, sooner than that, can

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be closed out and a department head lets me know, we'll do it. But in terms of monitoring for JCPC, we typically look three years and older because that means it's been sitting around, you know, sort of past what we would expect. Um, and so every year you'll see a new year come

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into that report uh for JCPC. And then the other thing I just wanted to point out, so you know, based on what I'm hearing, just so there's kind of an understanding um in this committee, the projects in the capital plan that when I just do a quick look would sort of fall

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into the category of potentially not urgent urgent and I, you know, others might feel differently, but um are not tangible things. One potentially would be the fuel tracking software for DPW. [sighs]

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that was $100,000. Um, one potentially planning consultants that was $200,000. Um, and one would be the school operational review which was $130,000. A lot of the other things are for

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equipment replacements of things that have already been, you know, in some cases been deferred multiple years or they're for roads. Um, I wouldn't want to take the sustainability money because I know that's sort of the only amount of money that uh the sustainability director really has to implement

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strategies. So, those are the three that jump out to me that are also funded from cash and are don't have an alternative funding source. >> What was the first one that you mentioned the tracking? What was that? >> The fuel tracking software. DPW um wanted a way to better manage their

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vehicles and um you know monitoring the vehicles maintenance and but also the fuel usage um >> got it. >> Yeah. >> And I Paul you want to speak to this also since John? >> So I think there's some other things that we would consider as well. I think

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those are not the only things and there's some you know we have different priorities um that we want to achieve and um that we've really worked towards to get to after several years. So yeah, we would look at all the different items on it, but um if you um decide to reduce

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it, I my worry I mean we will get to it whatever you choose to do on it. Um my worry is for next year um there'll be built more additional pent-up demand and additional we sort of standard already been we've been habitually lowering our

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commitment to capital which we can't keep doing. we just really need to maintain that and we say every fall when we set financial or you said every fall financial guidelines you say we want to keep it up there but then it's it gets reduced because it's the easy things to point to you know and it it's I'm not

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saying I wouldn't make the same decision if I were in your shoes but um it's just something to be aware of because I think we are really I mean Kathy's been right I mean the next couple years are going to be really really difficult as we take on new we're doing a lot of things with one-time money you know that we you know

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with the sixth grade relocation, wildwood maintain maintenance, uh the track and field, um things like that that we're going to have to incorporate into our budgets and that's that's going to be a real challenge next year and the year after.

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>> Well, I see Anna, Anna, Sam, Joe, Lynn. So, I I think that both Kathleen and Sean and Paul kind of answered my question, but I I was just generally was wondering if we should be making sort of the same kind of casual reference to

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what we would would want to see reduced in the manager's budget in order to make this happen. So, you know, kind of the idea of this happens to be within the range budgeted for XYZ. It could possibly be taken from that area. But I I think that Sean, you gave us a pretty clear idea of what

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where this would come from. And you know, to to Paul's point, it is the easy this is easiest maybe isn't the right word, but uh this is the place that we tend to default to. And I just wanted to make sure that we've thought about just

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confirming whether this is the place that we would want to take it from or if there are other options that we would want to recommend other than capital. I know that we're in capital right now, but just to make sure we've thought about everything u before we move forward with cuts that are that are hard.

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>> So Anna, just a quick on the guidance we got on if it's the operating budget. >> OPE's on the list as potential, it's discretionary. Pensions is not assessments and then the municipal line is the whole thing. >> Yeah. >> You know, so it it's there's not a lot

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of degrees of freedom in Right. And so that and we don't have uh go somewhere else. It's Yeah. Okay. >> There's also the library too just to fully round it out. >> Less less library you know the library

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you know they could you know but everyone I think knows the size of the library budget. Um, >> yeah. >> And just to just to be clear, sorry, I saw the second part of my notes. My question, Sean, the ones the items that you referenced and Paul, the items that you said are are potential uh

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considerations as well. Would all of those qualify for free cash should we decide to appropriate or seek an appropriation for them later in the year? >> Yes. The only again, but that would be prioritizing these projects over road investments or contributions to the fire

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station. But yep, that any any capital project we could um we could likely use free cash for. >> Thank you, Sam. Joe then Lynn. >> Thank you, Kathy. Uh I just wanted a clarification. Councelor Bravic, if you

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could assist. Uh um I was listening, but I'm not sure if I heard accurately. What was the thought process or rationale for the number that you referenced of 290? I understand the uh where the initial one

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I came up with is, but I I wanted to hear again uh the the thoughts in terms of the 290. >> So yeah, it's it's yours plus half of the additional basically. It takes the full amount for the

290
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interventionists and then adds half of the school committee requested amount for the regular instruction line and then my back of the envelope calculating pr-rated amount of health insurance. Then to add to that,

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>> thank you >> Joe. >> Thank you so much. Um, I just want to again I just want to be kind of just clear in my own mind about this uh the exact number. So if under like uh Sam's thought process here like $182,000

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um what exactly would be coming from free cash out of that 182 what's the 69 how does the 69 how is that accounted for? >> Like so would you take like a net 112 or 113 for free cash or how does that work? Is that

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>> right now Joe? Yeah, >> in the manager's elementary school budget, there's 69,000 more, >> right, >> than they thought they had because the regional came in lower. >> Yep. >> So that's not allocated to anything

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right now at the school level. >> So anything if we vote any other amount of money, it's on top of that. It's not free cash. It's just already in the budget. So none of this is free cash. >> Okay. >> Okay. Sorry, stupid question. All right,

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thank you, >> Lynn. >> Joe, not a stupid question because I want to be very clear. The things we're talking about is no change to the manager's recommendation,

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120,000 on top of the manager's recommendation, and 290,000 on top of the manager's recommendation. Okay, that's what we're talking about. Thank you. >> And those are the three if people are

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ready um I can I can put them out for a vote in any order that people would like and and get a vote on each of those and all three well the first doesn't require any change in the capital budget. Number

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two and number three 120 and 290 both would be a decrease in the capital budget. and Anna, we can mention the kinds of things that were mentioned there, but we're we're leaving it to uh Sean was very nice to offer anything, but um uh heroic actually, [laughter]

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but um so are people comfortable moving to a vote on this? And then what what once we vote, we can write up what we did and we have to send the report back tomorrow.

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So Lynn is taking copious notes. We'll draft that executive summary to have a full page on the what we did with votes so people can at the council would know um and they can they will be able to see that we weren't necessarily all voting

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for the same thing you know so that and then we'll get it I'm committing you Lynn but between you and me we'll get it to everybody by ear by tomorrow morning so if there are any changes corrections we can still get it to the council by

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our deadline. The deadline's tomorrow. We were worried the deadline was today. So, we do have we have an overnight uh from the president who always counts days better than I do or 30 days. So,

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are we ready to go for a vote? And um I guess we can start. Why don't I start with 290? Um, so it it is uh the motion would read that we recommend that the council

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add an additional $290,000 to the elementary school budget and reduce the capital budget by the same amount and then we will write a rationale to go with that. Is that is that fine with everyone?

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Okay. Then I am going to call out names as I see them on my screen. Lynn, >> nay. >> Kathy is a no. Kathleen, >> no. >> Jill,

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>> yes. >> Uh Joe, >> no. >> And in each case, just resident members, you'll be a support. No. Um, and Anna, >> no. >> Okay. Who am I missing?

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>> Tom and Sam. >> Oh, no. Sam. Sam's screen went off. Okay. Tom, >> no. Support. >> And Sam? >> Uh, nay. >> Okay. So, one yes, four nos.

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One yes, four nos among the counselors, and one yes and no yeses, three nos among the resident members. Correct? >> That was my count, too. >> Okay, thank you. Okay, so that was 290.

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Now we go to 120. And I'm going to just do the Well, what I'm going to start at the bottom of my screen. Sam, >> hi. Uh, Tom.

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>> Nay. >> And Anna. >> I >> Joe. >> Yes. >> Jill. >> Can I Sorry. Point of clarification. I'm in favor of this as opposed to nothing.

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Um, >> but this is I said I'm going to report them all and um I'll make sure you know so you can be a yes on more than one. >> I see. >> I mean, is that fair? You know, it's not like you cho only wanted the big number. You didn't want the midway number. Okay.

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>> Right. It's not like rank choice, but yes. Okay, then. Yes. >> Kathleen >> support. Uh Lind. >> Um >> I might support it in the council.

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>> And so what are you going to do today? >> Um reluctantly support, but I'm going to also vote for no change. >> Okay. And and Kathy's going to support. So there are five yeses and one can be characterized as reluctant which is an

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interesting way of voting. Um could have you could have abstained. Okay. So no change. Uh starting with Lynn >> I >> uh Kathleen Kathy I'm also a yes on that one. Kathleen

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>> but just point of clarification. We're voting on we're voting for no no change at all. >> No change at all. >> Okay. I don't support Uh Jill, >> no. >> Uh Joe,

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>> no. >> Anna, >> no. >> Tom, >> support. >> Okay. Yes. [clears throat] And Sam, >> nay.

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>> Okay. So, I got two yeses among the counselors and three nos. and one yes and two nos among resident members. Is that correct? >> That's what I have. >> Okay.

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And um Athena's I'm so glad you're there, Athena. Then I I will try to figure out whether how I um I assume people would want people to know how they voted on this. So I we'll figure out a way of

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indicating you know the the yeses and the nos. Are people comfortable with that resolution? Sean, >> this might be more a question for Athena. Does that give us what we need in terms of recommendations on the two

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orders? It sounds like although there's not unanimity among the committee that the committee, a majority of the committee supports the middle option and it would be best for the committee to vote to recommend those options to the council

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so that we have clean recommendations from the committee. It's very clear what the committee is supporting. >> I can put the Kathy, do you want me to put one of the orders up on the screen and we can you can make the motion and then amendment. My assumption was that this was kind of like a straw poll that

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you were taking Kathy since it wasn't formal motions. So I was assuming that you were going to make formal motions after this to recommend capital with the reduction and then the operating budget and then school with the addition. >> Yep. And >> so capital is already on the floor, right? So do you want me to bring because we have to reduce I mean it

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doesn't matter at this level but you'd reduce capital first and then vote the increase. >> Okay. Okay. So, I make a motion that we reduce uh appropriation and transfer order FY2705A,

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an order appropriating funds for a portion of the town's capital budget by $120,000. >> And that's a recommendation to reduce >> and that's I we make a recommendation to the council. >> Thank you. >> In the in the raise and appropriate section.

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>> Okay. And so and so you want to be then the raise in the appropriate section goes do you want me to be precise about this and >> I think Athena probably has the song as everyone >> and you know because what we need to do is take 400 4,590

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and subtract 120 from it. So >> point of order. >> Yes. >> So will we have a second motion regarding the corresponding reduction? This is the reduction. >> Excuse me. The uh >> yes, we're going to do the municipal

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budget next. >> Okay. >> They're two there two financial orders. Okay. >> So, we'll we'll explain. We took a vote on them separately, but it was within this understanding. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Kathy, I'll I'll second that if if we've

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got the motion. I think I followed what you were saying and I'm I will second it even though we don't have kind of a clean >> Okay. I can edit it if um you give me the number one more time and so everyone see >> $120,000.

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>> So 4 590 893 minus 120,000. >> Mhm. >> So that would be 4 470 893 and then I just got to reduce that one too. the reason appropriate 420

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893US 120,000. Okay, I'll put up on the screen in one second. These would be the numbers that changed. and and so just you've changed the order. So now we're recommending

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uh this where we've already taken the 120 out. Correct, Sean? >> Yeah, this has the 120 removed from the total. >> Okay. So I'm not even sure how to, you know, so it's as presented and then we

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will do it where we do in red what we would the track changes. Correct. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So that's this is basically what we're voting on and um I'll get the wording right if um so my motion is to

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recommend that the council approve appropriation and transfer order FY2705A in order to appropriate for uh portion of the town capital program equipment and building as presented and then make

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a note that this is a $120,000 reduction. from the original order. So >> I still [laughter] >> up in the Okay. So um putting that to a vote.

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>> Um wait second it Lynn. >> Reluctantly I >> Kathy say yes. Kathleen >> support. Jill, >> yes. >> Joe, >> yes.

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>> Okay. Uh, Anna, >> hi. >> Uh, Tom, >> support. >> And Sam, >> hi. >> Okay. So, we're reporting that as unanimous and we will have the votes on

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the other. Okay. The second one is the uh Okay, where is my second one? >> Can you put it up on the screen so I can I had it sitting here? I have two.

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>> I'm going to put the table. >> Oh, I have it here. I have it here. But go ahead. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um, >> so this is the table not amended yet. >> Okay.

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>> We just did this. >> Okay. So, I move that we recommend to the council that we increase the elementary school budget in the municipal budget by $120,000

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in an order appropriating the town of Ammerst operating budget for fiscal year 2027. >> Second. >> That's Anna seconded. And Sean is changing the numbers as we watch

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him. And so we will we'll Athena will work with me to make sure we can make it clear to the council that this is an amended um elementary school line. So this is the new number 29,598590. >> Okay.

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Okay. Wait second. Did Sam do you have a comment or are we ready to move for vote? >> Comment or question? Um will we I I assume that we'll make a reference in the report the rationale for the change. Yes.

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>> Budget. That is to say, I think it's, you know, significant for us to communicate with clarity to the school committee >> the thought process behind the increase. So that I I think they're acknowledgeable anyway, but it's a document. Thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah, we will. And so that's why I

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said we we'll attempt to get this out to you tonight if not first thing in the morning so that in the executive summary we talk about the the the final vote with a rationale. Um and then we have another one that the voting process that

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we went through and unfortunately our executive summary is already four pages long but we'll have a very long executive summary. Um so this will be the what people will be able to read. Okay, Sam. You know, and so >> we we'll this this is an unusual enough

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circumstance. We haven't had to draft something like this before, but we will uh be as clear as we can be. So, I am putting this to a vote. Lynn, >> uh reluctantly I >> Kathy is a yes. Kathleen

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>> support on uh councelor Breick. >> Yes. >> Joe, >> yes. Uh, Anna, >> hi. >> Tom, >> the port. >> Uh, and Sam,

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>> hi. >> Okay, so we are unanimous on both sides, which is very good since that's where I thought we were. >> Did you get Joe? >> Oh, did I get Yeah, Joe said yes. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And just so everyone knows this. So, this is what the full revised order

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would look like. the sum has increased by 120,000 for 2704A and the raise and appropriate for um the operating budgets has increased 7 by 120,000 uh specifically in the elementary school line

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>> and Lynn go ahead >> I'm sorry >> I'm assuming Sean's gonna us >> Tom would you mute please there's some noise on your end. >> So, we we will get this

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written um and then get it out to you. The council, I'm assuming um and Athena gave me very elegant council motion because it's got more about having held a hearing on such

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and such a date and whatever. So, we clearly didn't hold a hearing on this. Um, but we will get this to the council after you've reviewed it. And in the council, um, I'm assuming there will still be the original financial orders that they can

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see and the order that we as we've amended it. So, they're going to be able to see what we were looking at. Um, and we'll put the rationale in. And with that said, we just look at Yes, Sam, go ahead.

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>> Uh, yeah, thank you, Kathy. I I have a question on the uh executive summary report. Uh I you know we a number of us sent edits in and most all were incorporated. Uh I had one

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non grammatical uh edit that I didn't see in the updated report and I wanted to just I'm not sure if there's a time period to bring that up or not. Um, and it was minor and it

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was on page 29 of the report. >> Page 29. Lynn, you sent them just to Lynn, so Lynn will know what she did or didn't incorporate. But yeah, page 29. >> It was simply where it indicated the finance committee recommends focusing on

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properties Ammerst owns to enable moving more rapidly to providing new housing and yielding increased property for tax revenue. I wanted to increase in include a comment after new housing uh to reference uh the community. I had one

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that I submitted, but it could also be with in collaboration with the community. Uh since the committee, all our names are on the bottom of the report and it's indicating we want to take existing property that we own and turn it into a housing. I want to

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reference that in collaboration or with support of the community because uh there are varying opinions on different properties exist and >> okay so >> it's a minor edit but >> we have your original and we'll make we

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can we can do that you know these recommendations are seated there's some seating throughout them and we didn't >> and we can fix that I didn't get we have other recommendations that aren't you know, financial and I didn't have

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anyone. >> It's a monumental task. I appreciate all done. It's fantastic. >> No, I understand what the intent is, Kathleen. >> Yeah. I just um one of the recommendations that I had submitted was

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to potentially take out the chart on page 13 and 14 of the school enrollment against the FTEES. And you know, I don't know how others feel about that. I guess my question around that chart was sort of what is the what's the goal like what

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is that meant to convey to counselors or the public? Um and because it wasn't really clear to me, you know, sort of what like what what folks can are meant to take away from that. >> Um if people are comfortable with that,

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I'm I put the chart in. I'm happy to take it out. Does anyone want to argue for keeping it? And I I mean I'll just say I I just think there's so much nuance to to the the FTEES and um >> you know and and I also will just

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mention that we asked the library for FTEES and they they declined to to even give us their FTEES. So you know we we don't have comparable information for for the other that other segment of the budget. So, I I'd be happy to take it out, you know, unless, you know, it it's

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um you know, we had originally been hoping to get some more granular and we couldn't, you know, just to show where, you know, and as the superintendent said, there's been a shift rather than a you know, there's been a shift within the mix because of the what the students

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are. So, consider that chart gone. >> Thank you. And everyone should feel free to the extent they have um the sitting power to read through the very long document that if there's anything else that jumps out

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at you um just flag it, you know, with a yellow highlight or something. I think everyone's focus will be on how well we we captured what we just did during the meeting. Um so with that said it is

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a quarter of three. Amazing. Um it's a quarter of three. So um if if there are no other comments for now I want to thank everyone for an extremely full discussion and we do have one attendee

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and I know her hand was up but I wanted to wait for public comments till we got to the end of this. Um, if is everyone comfortable with me opening up for public comments at this point? So, we are open for public comments and I

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apologize for not calling on you earlier, but but I didn't want to disrupt the flow. You're with us, Deb. >> Hi. Um, thank you all for all your thoughtful hard work. um have to say I'm disappointed, but I also have to say I I

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expect I don't know. I um I appreciate what you've done and the diligence with which you've examined things. My my comment was um about specials um and um it's not particularly relevant at

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this point to the discussion, but I did want to points out that the uh instrumental music program is a very different kind of program than the uh the music program and in particular because it is not a it's doesn't count

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for time and learning. It's an optional program and it's highly valued but there's no desi framework for it. There's no um there's no curricular structure. So it it is not an equivalent um program. But again thank you for all

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all your hard work and that's it. >> Thank and thank you very much for joining us and for patiently waiting and all the work you've been doing for the school committee and all of us.

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Um, I want to also thank uh the staff who has stayed with us all this time and will still be with us as they have to read, including Athena, make sure we got these motions right. Um, I scribbled them down, but uh, Athena's good at

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checking to make sure we've got the wording right. Um, and we will we meaning Lynn and I and we'll cross-check each other to make uh the this executive summary work in

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terms of the votes on this. Clearly, it's going to be a long page about what we did on voting. But I think it's worth it so that everyone feels like their their voices were heard and that the c full council then gets to see what we considered as options.

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So, with that said, I am going to make a motion to adjourn. Is there a second? >> Second. >> And we'll put it to a vote. Lynn, >> I >> Kathy is a [clears throat] yes. Kathleen, >> yes.

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>> Jill, >> yes. >> Uh, Joe, >> yes. >> Tom, >> yes. >> Sam, >> hi. and Anna. >> Hi. >> Welcome back, Anna. Also, it's

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unanimous. >> We are adjourned at uh two 2:47. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.