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As far as I Thank you. One of you is the host or hostess. Um Good afternoon, everyone. Today is June 16th Finance Committee meeting and I am calling the meeting to order seeing that there is a

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quorum at 1:01 and my first uh item on the agenda is to make sure members can hear and we can hear them since we're conducting this remotely. And I will just call out names as I always do as I see them on the screen.

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Uh Lynn Yeah. >> Present. >> Okay. Uh Kathleen >> Present. >> Tom >> Present. >> Anna >> Present. >> Sam >> Present. >> And um Joe Jade will not be joining us

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today. Jill said she will be 5 to 10 minutes late and I'm going to open it up for public comments first. I see that Katie Zobel is on with us and that is because we have one action item today. It's to

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discuss the referral of another CPA award um that they were able to make and so she's here in case we have any questions. But before we go into that, Tom, I just want to say so I don't forget it how much we've

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really appreciated you being on the committee and uh we we understand you were juggling competing demands constantly and I think you did it extremely well. So, really thank you for your service. >> You're welcome and I thank you in

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particular, Cathy. You've been so wonderful to me and and everybody and uh this is such important work and uh it's been an honor to be part of it and I'm I'm excited for today's agenda and then I'm I'm sorry to head off into the summer sunset, but um

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I I'm very proud of the work we've done together. Thank you. >> That's great. And you know, we're going to start a discussion today on the budget book. If you have any ideas once you leave today's meeting, you know, feel free to just email them. You know,

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we we we consider you an honorary member even if you're no longer on the committee. So. >> Pleasure. Thank you. >> Okay, so today's agenda is fairly simple. We have one financial order as I mentioned, a community preservation act

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project that they were able to meet on and vote and get it to us that was referred last night from the council. And then a beginning discussion on what has been referred to us as a result of charter discussion um, to look at the budget book um,

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and in more generally, you know, financial transparency and what if anything we want to recommend. And as the way I wrote it up on the agenda is potentially a discuss do we want to have a little sub committee of a couple people who really want to do this and

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then come back to the finance committee with ideas or do we want to keep it at a full committee. And then the final thing and I'll show it to you as I checked in with Shawn just to give people a preview of what the rest of the year looks like, when things are coming

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up and these are tentative. You know, and we just posted them. So, I'll just go through that really briefly. So, I think we'll turn first to and >> look at that counselor Brebrick? >> Great. Welcome, Jill. We are just starting and I was going through the

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agenda. So, you are your timing was perfect. And just [clears throat] let let us make sure we can hear you, counselor Brebrick. >> Yes, thank you. >> Okay. So, we have a a referral on order appropriation from the community preservation act budget for the Goodwin

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Memorial Church preservation for $48,000 and there was a write-up for it in the council last night. I'm not sure whether the write-up got into our agenda or not, but perhaps we just take a few

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minutes to have Katie Zobel speak to this if that's all right with everyone. That's Sherer's CPA. Yes. Welcome, Katie. >> Yes, thank you. >> Thank you for joining us. >> Thank you for for taking this up. I appreciate it. It's nice to see

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everyone. Um appreciate your work. This um this recommendation from the CPA is um been evolving over the year and initially it was um proposed to us

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uh in the fall in the regular schedule >> [clears throat] >> and unfortunately um the applicant on behalf of the Goodwin Memorial Church was the um the pastor at the time who um went into declining health and passed away unfortunately in December. So, we

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were unable to have the uh church present to us. We had some questions. We were concerned about the amount of damage that water had um done over the years to this historic

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church and so we asked them to um come back to us in the spring with a revised proposal. In addition, a member of the um historic commission um uh Robin Fordham had suggested that

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there was some state emergency grant money available, but would close on June 30th of 2026. So, um with some support they were able to apply uh for that um grant and receive the

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grant contingent on a match. So, received a $48,000 grant from the state contingent on a match from the community. And um their uh their revised proposal was excellent. They used um historic um

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preservation expert architects out of um the Berkshires and um they invested some dollars into that to have a plan put in place so that not only would the um conditions uh uh that exist right now um

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be fixed, there would be some prevention done all with historic preservation in mind um in terms of the chimney, the roofing, the um and the the inside of the um

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of the church itself and um the sanctuary itself and it also the basement. So, um we were really thrilled to have them presented to us in this spring. We had um you and the town council had approved

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um putting $48,000 in general reserves so that uh depending on the timing of any um uh affirmation of our recommendation and approval could be available to the church starting July 1st. So, they

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wouldn't have to wait another year and continue to have that kind of damage um you know, increase on the on the um on the building. So, um We we met last Thursday CPA and voted um

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it to move this forward to recommend a $48,000 as a match to the state uh emergency funding um to support this uh project. And we and hope hope hope and encourage you all to um ask any questions that you

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have, and um, hopefully can approve this so it can get back to the council and move forward. >> That's great, Katie. Do you um, if I have one question on timing cuz I don't know whether you heard last night, um, and Shawn may know the answer to this.

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Um, there was a council one more council meeting scheduled for June. Um, and the next one and and there's a consideration of canceling that. Um, do you need the council to have voted on this before July 1st? We we can get a report out

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with our recommendation. Um, so it's just a timing. >> Yeah, right. That that's why we voted to put it into general reserve so it would be available at the time of approval. Um, so it's doesn't have the same June

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30th deadline as it would have if it wasn't in the general reserve, um, currently. >> And then for the state grant which you said had a deadline on it, it once the match is in theory obtained, is that still secure? So I'm purely asking about

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timing. Yeah. >> Yes, no, that that my my understanding is the state funds are contingent on that match, meaning they're available for a year, you know, for them to use in um, in 26-27,

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but they have to prove that they have a match first in order to access those funds. And Shawn looks like >> And Katie, we can um, we can reach out to the Goodwin Church and just confirm that if the funds are approved on July, was it 15th your meeting? Or

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>> July 20th. >> July 20th. Um, we can confirm with them that that will not risk their state grant. And if we hear back that they're we'll do that today and tomorrow. And if we hear back any concern over that, then we'll let you all know.

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>> Okay. Great. So, um, I'm turning this open for any other questions. It just really occurred to me cuz last night we talked about eliminating the June 29th meeting. Um it wasn't confirmed yet, but

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any other questions, comments on this proposal? Kathleen. >> Yeah, no, I just want to say I was following the CPA process and heard you all deliberate and discuss this project and I know you were all hoping that it would it would come back and so I'm just

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I'm just glad to see that that everything has aligned for it to be able to be funded. Thank you for all your work on this. >> Thanks, Kathleen. Appreciate that. Sam. >> Uh thank you, uh Kathy, and thank you, Katie. I just want to reiterate what I

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said yesterday evening that uh I'm very pleased that the CPA committee uh scheduled a meeting off-cycle uh to make this happen. Uh and again, just one of

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the cooler buildings in town. It's just this uh little niche in the back that's so historic. Uh and uh for me, it just brings back memories of delivering papers and uh they're so

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economical in all their proposals. They've done a few through the years and they always come in and that's the kind of thing I I love and I assume the committee loves to see through CPA really maximizing the dollars uh and valuing the dollars

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of the town. So, thank you and your committee uh uh and thank you, Katie, I uh for all your hard work uh this past cycle. >> Thanks, Sam. I appreciate you. >> Any other uh comments? Discussion?

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No, I I think as um you heard last night, but also this is an excellent project and um, knowing that CPA had sort of dispersed for the summer until the next round, the effect that the whole committee was willing to come back

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to meet on this is an indication of how um, both important, but also the dedication to the work you all do is is impressive. So, thank thank you. >> Thanks, Cathy. I appreciate that. >> So, if there were no other Katie, you

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can stay with us, but I think we will turn to I'm going to make a motion, if there no other comments. I'm I move that we recommend that the council approve appropriation and transfer order FY 27-

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07B, Town of Amherst Community Preservation Act, an order appropriating FY 27 Community Preservation Act budget as required under MGL Chapter 44B. And I will write that down and attach

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this order and this is an appropriation of $48,000. Is there a second? >> Second. >> And um, if there are no other comments or discussion, I will put it to a vote. Um, uh, Lynn.

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>> I. >> Kathleen. >> Support. >> Tom. >> Support. >> Anna. >> I. >> Sam. >> I. >> Councilor Blevins. >> Yes.

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>> And Cathy is a yes. So, it is unanimous with all five councilors voting yes and the two resident members who are here supporting. And thank you and I will get a very brief report out on this, so everyone can see it on probably by

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tomorrow morning so I don't forget so I don't forget to do it. >> So, Kathy, unless we hear otherwise that we need some action sooner, um we're planning on holding the required public forum on July 20th and then the council would vote that that same evening. >> Okay, that's great.

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Thank you very much and Katie, thank you for joining us. >> Many thanks. >> So, the next item is to have a beginning discussion on the format of the budget book and any potential changes we might

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want to see on it and this was referred to us by the council. It came out of the charter review group to take a look at it and then went beyond just the budget book and transparency. Sean. >> No, no, finish, Kathy. I was just once you're done, I was going to give a little background on the budget book

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currently. >> Okay. And so, one idea that um to consider is whether we want to create a subgroup to work on this rather than have to have it to be a full committee and that would be

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working closely with Sean, just going through some ideas and collecting ideas and so that we could either in July or August come back and have a set of recommendations in front of us. So, I'll just I'll just stop there and

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call on Sean. >> Yeah, so I just wanted to briefly give background on the current budget book. So, um the current budget book was designed in as part of the transition away from

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town meeting to city form of government, right? So, admittedly, it's not perfect. Um it was sort of the first, you know, first take at it. Um it is modeled along the lines of there's um a structure and a format that

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the government finance officers association GFOA that they recommend and it's a national standard for municipalities and I will I'll send that link out to you all that kind of give some of that background. So it's modeled after that

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and at one point our goal was to submit it. They give out a certification for budget documents basically saying it meets all these transparency standards and informational standards and our budget book just about does that. There's like one or two little things we have to add to it if we want

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to submit. There's a you know five pages of requirements but that's how it got to be where it is now. It was there's a equivalent for the schools. We had update the school budget book to be like that and then when we transitioned from town meeting to city we did a

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similar thing with the town budget. So it takes a lot of time to put together and hearing feedback we want to make sure that time is well spent. So definitely want to make sure it meet you know it provides information that you all need and that members of the public want. So

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we are open to making changes and hearing your feedback. >> Thank you for that and and I think seeing those guidelines would be helpful you know um So I'm I'm open being the meeting for any comments or

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suggestions of moving forward. I actually started looking at my notes that I've taken back from the year through the years on and and also to be I think conscious of uh

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the if the goal is making it easier to find information um and and sort of missing pieces of information so if it's organizational and to uh impose as little work as possible on the finance department would

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be part of what we want to do. And one of the things I found out from Shawn when I said, could we Um I I probably other people have noticed this, but in the index at the very beginning, it gives you various page numbers, and then you move from one

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page number to 100 later because all of the in terms like where is the police department, where is Crest, those aren't in the index. And Shawn said the reason they aren't page numbered at the point is is that he's working he can describe

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with with a lot of PDFs that he's bringing together. And so it it hasn't it's it's not working with pages in the same way. Um so and and I think Shawn my impression is that's partly you have charts and graphics and pictures.

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>> Yeah, so the the budget document is a combination of Word and Excel. Um and and then it gets merged together using Acrobat Pro. So the the sections that are in Word are really easy to link in the table of

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contents, so you can click on the page number and it brings you, you know, right to that section. The you know, in some ways the meat of the budget document, which are all the department um budgets and their narratives and statistical information, that's all in

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Excel because of the nature of the type of data it is, it's easier to to pull that into Excel than Word tables. Um but that's harder to, you know, get into that table of contents that's in the Word document, and we don't want to copy and paste a gazillion um

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tables into the Word document. We could if that's the recommendation, but that's that's we haven't. We've merged them through uh PDF. And so one, you know, one thing just that I've heard and I would recommend to consider is how useful is some of the information we provide, like the statistical data. That

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is a legacy of town meeting where every department has you know, some statistics for for the department and I'm guessing a lot of it is probably not that valuable, but it does take a lot of time for people to pull together. It takes up

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space. That might be a sec, you know, I I welcome recommendations on We know we want to provide some statistical information, but what is the right statistical information that would be useful and does every department, you know, do you really need to know how many central service counter transactions there are throughout the years? That

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helpful? Um, you know, things like that. So, uh that's just one other piece to consider. >> Kathleen and then Counselor Brevick. >> Yeah, I just wanted to ask where you are with the thought about budget software because I know that was something via

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JCPC that had been talked about a couple years ago and then it was sort of let's hold off and assess and so I cuz I cuz I can see as part of this process some things come up that you might say, "Yeah, that's a great idea. We can't do that currently. Like should we put it on

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a list for if we do do different software? I I don't have a sense of budget software in terms of, you know, what >> Yeah. >> what it would help with or like So, I just wanted to sort of see where that process might dovetail with this process. >> I think if the committee

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committee's recommendations are not to do a lot of supplementary information, then the budget software might be a good option. It's expensive and it's an annual operating cost, which trying to avoid if we're thinking about where to put our dollars. As we heard last night, money's

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tight. So, I don't know that the budget software like saves us a position anywhere. There's really just me in terms of the budget. Um, we used to have a budget analyst, just putting a plug out there, but we don't anymore. Um, so I think it would it would depend. If the feedback is we just want the

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numbers, you know, in very straightforward way, then I think the budget software could be helpful if it's I wouldn't want to do that. And then we're also doing a bunch of supplementary charts and things just cuz if we're going to do that, we might as well get exactly what we want. So, um I'm open to it, but I'm not in love with

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the budget softwares by any means. >> Uh Council Brevik. So, I have one comment on the budget book itself, but then maybe one thought for process. Um one of the things I think when I was trying to get my head around each

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department and and think about questions to ask as we were preparing for the sessions, I think one of the areas that was a hang-up for me was the key challenges and long-range objectives section.

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I think and it's like a simple fix maybe, but if you pulled those apart, I think it would actually really help. It would It would be really helpful to know of the things listed in that section, which ones are a challenge and which ones are are simply an objective. And I think not knowing the difference

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between the two led to a lot of follow-up questions. So, just as a way to kind of eliminate that, um to know is this something that is a breeze and we're just working on it and it's going to be happening over the next few years or is it something that we're

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we're finding to be challenging for some reason one reason or another and it may not happen because of the challenge, you know. >> I think we do want to look at that section. I think that's a good point. Um A that section is written in Excel, which is not very user-friendly for our

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department. So, we want to make some changes to that section anyway. So, I think that's definitely something we could um we could do. >> Great. Um and then I thinking about our wonderful long question and answer

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document that came out of the process. I mean, maybe this is a vote in favor of having a small group work on this um over the summer, but I just wonder if there's a way to go through all of that and see what

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where there are trends or where there is information that is missing that we could feed into the process in advance. So, like if there were a lot of questions in one area, thinking about how to then make that

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like a uniform item that's being addressed in advance to you know, I guess just the idea being that how do we take all of that, consolidate it, and feed it into an annual process to maybe eliminate how much work we're

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asking the departments to do in the Q&A part. It felt like that was probably pretty laborious for everybody involved. Um and then also if you're doing that, then could you go through and also to strong

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your your point about statistics, are the statistics helpful? Like look at what maybe don't we need and what could we [clears throat] add? Um Yeah. >> Thank you. Lynn. >> Uh first of all, Shawn, I just want to

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recognize the extensive work that goes into the budget book. Um it's just astounding um and you're always under the um you know, need to finish it up in time and make sure it gets to us by certain date and

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everything else. Um I I look upon the budget book as almost like our annual report, which I know we don't do. And so, as we look at any improvements

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to the budget book, one of the things that I think about is to think about it as an annual report. Are there things that we should bring into it like for example, more thorough descriptions of departments or something like that or

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the key contact information that's on the web, which brings me to my other piece and that is that since we're also going through a web change at this point, there may be some interactions between the web and the um I mean I

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a web update I guess. I don't know exactly what's happening but there may be some interactions between that and what we do with the budget book. So that um we can bring in the most consistent information in both again with the eye

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toward this is the one publication a year that the town puts out that basically allows people to really delve into more of more of what's going on with each department and

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and our finances and our goals. So, that's >> And really quick along those lines, that reminded me Lynn, um this is good timing for this review and one reason to consider a budget software even though I don't particularly like them, um is the accessibility component. So, I

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know there is accessibility requirements coming up. Our budget book right now is not particularly accessible in terms of like I don't think you can have it like read it to you um because of the the combination of Excel and and Word. So, um

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having I know the the budget softwares are generally more accessible in terms of meeting ADA um you know, for digital content. So, that's something else we should address as part of this process. >> Sam. >> Um

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thank you Kathy. Yeah, I just like to compliment uh you and your staff Sean. I think it's just uh >> [clears throat] >> an exceptional document and uh the amount of information

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included is quite something. Having not really looked at the budget book previously, I was impressed by the um >> [clears throat] >> added information that's in here. Uh you know, essentially linking it with the

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goals and objectives. Uh those pages, although not budgetary, they were helpful to me uh just to get a handle on why and where expenses are being focused. Uh I think that's likely helpful to anyone who's

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looking at this and uh you know, kind of part parlaying on Lynn's comment, it really is almost uh a summary of the it's a managerial document of here's what we're trying to

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do and here's why. Uh I have concern uh for the town staff uh in terms of the amount of work involved. Um I can only imagine. Um and

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you know, as a process as we look at this, uh I'm sure there are some things that could be tweaked here and there and there might be some suggestions regarding the overall budget process to include. Uh

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it probably is worth our uh inquiring beyond this committee of other councilors for their uh you know, particularly those who have been doing it for some time if they have uh suggestions as well.

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Uh in other words, we never You don't One doesn't know what one doesn't know unless they hear about it. There may be some ideas, but I I think in the overall process, My concern is >> [gasps] >> um

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the amount of time and respecting the time of uh staff as we proceed because uh uh a complete rearrangement could be uh I you know, it could be challenging, I think. Um

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but it's probably worth our reaching out to uh a slightly wider suggestion field. Uh maybe there's some things we don't didn't pick up on. I haven't reviewed it thoroughly from a perspective of

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I think we should do this or I think we don't do this. Uh but it's uh valuable to uh hear uh the perspective of Shawn and the town staff because they're living in this

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world producing this and uh I think it's an exceptional document in its current state. Um and maybe there are some things we can do. Uh I don't know if a subcommittee's needed or not. Um but reaching out to others I think is

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worthwhile and uh you know, if we do something like that, I'd be glad to uh participate. >> Uh Kathleen Wynn and then I have some comments, too. Kathleen? >> Yeah, I mean, one of my concerns about

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the existing budget book is I think it's it's maybe it's hard because it's trying to serve multiple purposes. Like I do look at it as a sort of an annual report and I think it does a really excellent job in that regard of providing a lot of contextual information and data

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visualization and photos. But I think that maybe some of the really just bare-bones financial information becomes hard to access or it's just you know, it's it's um it's a dense document. So, to go through and

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get the very, you know, versus, for example, when I look at Northampton's budget book, it's less narrative, it's less of an annual report, but has a lot more financial information per department, where it lists out actual positions and

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salaries. It lists out if a DPW employee is split among enterprise zones and other departments, it'll list what percent like what amount of the salary comes out of each of those um, buckets. It, um, if a if a position is partially

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grant funded, it shows that, you know. So, I think that's onerous, I'm sure. I don't know where the balance is between adding in more financial information and, you know, then still making it accessible to the folks who want to read it more as an

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annual report. That's where I think it's it's a bit challenging for this one document to serve multiple purposes. >> Yeah, and Northampton, theirs is also a combination of Word and Excel. Um, and there is like a summary report I know Kathy sent my way that we we've

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talked about maybe integrating that as a a way to pull all the department data into one report at the front end of that section, so you can see it all in one place instead of scrolling through. Um, and we can look at some of that other stuff. I think it's a, you know, a little more time-consuming, but I

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think it's a conversation for this group. Do you want departments and salary information and all that as sort of like the on the budget pages like presented that way? >> Lynn. Um, yeah. I'm sorry. I'm >> [clears throat] >> I'm also trying to eat lunch at the same time we're having a meeting, which is

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awful. Um, Sean, one of the things that, um, it and I think we can all reflect back on this, and that is that the vast number of pages that were related to our questions and answer this year were the schools. And

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you know, the schools are in charge of their own budget, and yet somehow or another it's leaving us with a lot of unanswered questions in terms of what we receive. And so, I if we're going to have any

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um conversation about the budget, I think we might want to reserve a special s- time, if you will, to actually talk with the schools about it. And then I'm not sure that it should be us and the school committee, but just be

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you and the you know, in other words, the people who are paid to do this uh work together. Uh but these it again, I'm going back to Jill's first observation, which was a huge one, which said, you know, a lot of questions

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arise, but when you really look at it, probably 90% of the pages for this year were education. >> Councilor Brebric. >> Um well, I wanted to just first second what Kathleen was saying about the different programs. I had like the same sort of thought of

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that annual reports and budget reports are it's either I feel like it's sort of trying to weave them together, but I feel like it's either committing to let's do these as two separate documents or or really tie them together better where

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you're able to see the the the qualitative information provided as outcomes data related to the budget. So, like have it function more like a budget narrative that that ties into the So,

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like the the qualitative stuff in there is in there for a reason and it's directly related to the budgetary information that's in there. So like either lean in totally or like or pull out things that don't fall into that that really aren't related to the budget

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into some some other sort of update document. Um but it does feel I I do agree. I don't know what the answer is, but I do agree that it kind of feels like it's trying to do a lot. Um and then actually I was going to say something too about the schools and the sort of

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I guess I'm wondering Shawn like what the what would be the challenges of trying to incorporate the schools the the schools budget into the budget book? I >> Yeah. I >> I was wondering the thought process around that. >> Mainly the length, I think it would I

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mean it would take a two or 300-page document and add another two or 300 pages to it. Um >> [clears throat] >> the schools have a good, you know, again, so the schools budget is modeled after the Association of School Business Officials' best practices, which is similar to I'd

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actually just emailed you guys the criteria, so um similar in structure. I think the challenge with the schools, not every year, but at different years is the timing of when the budget document comes out. Um so so I think they do have a good document and it can always be

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adjusted. It's really just the timing and um you know, how quickly school committee gives guidance to the superintendent and the finance director to pull their budget together, all those things uh impact each other and their their document is takes a long time to put together as well. So, um

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I think I think that would be the struggle of integrating the two is just their timing. They should really have their document done by February based on the current timeline. Um so that the school committee has February to review it and March to vote

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it and ours has to be done really by early April uh according to our current charter timeline. So, just the way the charter timeline is set up and the budget approval process is set up is we have we have different timelines for our documents. >> Kathleen.

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>> Yeah, no, just very quickly to Lynn's point about maybe rolling the schools into the conversation so that we could have some either consistency or some specific things that we notice we need. We may want to just also connect with the library because, you know, in their

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budget book, for example, they don't even have FTE data at all and weren't able to provide it and that may be something, you know, we may want to There may be some things just across all areas that we think are important that we may want to circle with other folks about.

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>> And again, that would be a another reason to consider budget software is if we, you know, at least with the schools, if the schools in the town use the same budget software, there would be more, even if they weren't the same document necessarily, they would be more aligned.

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Again, they're not totally unaligned, they have similar sections as they are now, but it would be, you know, it'd all be from the same format. >> Sean. >> I'm in Salem and then actually I have some comments, too, but wait. >> Thank you, Kathy. Uh

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Yeah, two a few different thoughts. One is the extensive question and answers. Uh It seems to me that that's something that's been going on for a number of years at the during the creation of the financial um

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report to the council and I thought or perceived uh a great idea uh Sean in terms of consolidating it at new reference that maybe this is something that could be retained for future. Uh There's a lot of

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the questions and information that's in there that comes up each year and it might ease or simplify some of the review process uh for the committee. uh And enable the committee to perhaps

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focus at a more acute level on the outliers, on the variances. Uh which would That's just a general thought that came to my mind if there's some of the repetition uh of questions in a

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consolidated summary, whether it gets updated regularly, it could be an appendix or a supplement. I I think that idea is helpful. I recognize it's a work in process, but it might save some time from the committee in terms of

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the report generation, uh but equally important, it it could be a very informative uh central uh reference point. Uh not just for a singular year, but for

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ongoing. Um >> [clears throat] >> Yeah, I mean, I as I look at it all it seems to me that the capacity does exist to pull out just the numbers and without all the

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information, but uh which would, you know, similar to what Lynn was referencing as a just here's where we are, but >> [sighs and gasps] [clears throat] >> I found the information in here helpful

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for me as a maybe as a first-time reviewer, uh not from the financial documents standpoint of here's where the numbers are, but from the linkage to how decisions get made.

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Um I don't have uh a recommendation at the moment in terms of how to slice and dice it to separate them out or not. Um but this is essentially it

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it's not a you know, it's links to managerial mindsets in terms of goals and those looking at it can align with the [clears throat] objectives and challenges with the the dollars. Um And if the you know, if the finance

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committee is as a as a committee is looking at the budget with the intention of considering alterations, that's helpful. Uh if we're looking at you know, acute variances, the supplemental number is

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only section might help. So, I'm I'm rambling on a bit here, I realize. Uh I have one other comment, not necessarily on the book, but just in general. There were a few suggestions from some constituents or uh former finance committee members that

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that it would be helpful if we ever could uh generate the capital planning software that had been done you had done, I believe, Shawn uh starting back at the origin of the council where you could plug in the varying interest rates. I

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don't know how feasible that is with current staffing, but that modeling uh from an informational standpoint for not for fixed numbers that are defined in the budget, but for planning purposes for um

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those considering uh various scenarios would be a helpful tool for the public and/or for the council, I think. To it's a segue from what I from what we're focused on right here, though.

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>> So, I had a couple comments. As I said, I started writing up. When I I've now been using the budget book for what your first year, Shawn, was 2019? >> 7 years, yeah. >> Yeah, so it's So, when I'm using it, you know, I I think

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this discussion of it's serving two purposes. When I'm using it, when I'm really thinking about budget. Um there are a bunch of tables I always look for. And I have to search for them every time. Um you know, so I think it's what you're talking about what Northampton does is

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pull pulls them up to a higher level. Um you know, we have a staffing table that shows the staff in all the departments. We have a table that shows what our reserves are. We have a table that shows, buried somewhere, you can find grants. Um and then what you can't

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easily find is where the grants are paying for part of a person. Uh then we find assessments and assessments, and then pensions are in one place, which makes sense, they're an assessment, and health insurance is another. So, I think

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there are some for me some high-level things that are budget-oriented that you're already doing that if it was pulled to the front of whatever we call the budget book, and you're doing them anyway, and you're updating them. Um so I started making a list literally

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making a list of where my paging through looking for something, and when do I find it really hard to find, or I have to uh take out my calculator I know how to work with the number and create a number, and then back and forth a little with

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Northampton. So, that's just a comment on certain tables I think are really important. >> Can I Can I say one thing in response? Um and so, when you say that, it makes me think one area to give potential to is what's in the executive summary. I think that might have been mentioned in was of the public comments as well.

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Right now, the executive summary is sort of uh a letter from Paul, but that could be its own section and, you know, some of this group work work of the group could be here's what should be in the executive summary. Um >> And that's that's exactly where I was going with it. And rather than just a

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letter from Paul, and then there's the guidelines are there there's a lot of words before we ever get to even budget number, you know, here are the guidelines. I'd put them in Yes, so some of it is just move it to the back in an appendix and then some of it is pull it up. So, it was that comment and I Jill's

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suggestion, I think, makes a lot of sense on the there's a difference between something that's a challenge and something that's an objective. And part of what we are getting out of the discussions with the departments is the things that are really challenges. These are things we want to do, we just can't

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do them, you know, for a variety of reasons. But, um on some of that, one of my thoughts was Anna's suggestion um that she made in early January. Full meetings with some of the departments um

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where we now have this long finance committee report where we heard from them. Coming back to now now what is the situation? Not, you know, to you know, how's how is fire and EMT doing now that

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they have additional staff, you know, and did I'm giving throwing out examples. DPW did the settlement of the contract help hire people who repair potholes as or is it a larger work for you know, some some things we uncovered. Um

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that might mean that the discussions in May can be shorter. You know, that we can focus more in on but the budget issues. And then on the school side uh bringing the schools in early. Uh the

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one thing I think they could know uh that they don't know right now by October they will know what enrollment is. You know, they'll know how many kids actually are in our schools, how many choiced out, choiced in, went to Chinese emergent, you know, charter. The charter

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is always a projection of how many charter kids there'll be. So, just getting a sense um with elementary was in fact the preschool what people were predicting or not. So, getting an early sense on that um because some of

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that enrollment numbers would be useful for the school committees, not just for us, but just early warning. So, trying to think of the full meetings, creating some space, which is what you're asking for, Anna, you know, with not every department

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might take some of the May lengthy report out. And we have this really long report, so we could say, "Okay, we identified these things." And come back and talk about those. So, So, then you know, this I have you

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know, the my my my overarching goal is to not create more work for you, Shawn, you know, but that if if the change is made that the next budget book should be easier rather than harder to produce, you know, because it it makes sense to

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all of you. Um so, whether it's slimmed down or not, um and I I did very much like the go through these information tables. Which of them do I tend spend a lot of time looking at and which do I gloss over because do I really want to know

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dog licenses was kind of you interesting this year because it led to why do we want to increase the fee for dog licenses, but ev- everyone has to produce this. And I personally find bar charts for one person departments

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to be a waste of space. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, but for consistency sake >> I know everyone >> but >> if we don't give them a bar chart, then they're the only one that I I don't I don't trust them. >> No, no, no. And so, one of the things is do we need bar charts? Can we just have one line, a number of employees in the department that goes

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over five over five years, you know? So, some of this is just purely that would shorten it a little bit. Um um you know, so it's I was just going through which things take some time to produce or picture that someone has to reproduce a

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pie chart. Um and so I was just going through though if this wasn't here, would that be less time? Or is that automatically are you generating those just you press a switch and that and the switch goes on? Yeah. >> And the one thing I would say quickly Cathy is

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I agree with you on that and as you guys go through it, I would put on the hat of someone who's not used to looking at financial documents um or financial information like you Cathy, you've looked at you know, lots and lots of that over your over the your career.

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The document you'll see in the criteria sent over, it's designed to give different ways to access the information. So, some of them might be a table, some of them might be a chart, some of them might be in a narrative format and that's sort of intentional so that people can access it in the way they want to access it. It's meant to be like super high-level and drill down

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into the detail is the structure is the general GFOA structure. Um so, there are some things like you're right, we probably don't need the bar chart for one person departments, but just keep that in mind as well that sometimes it's intentional that there's multiple ways to access it um for that reason.

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>> I'm very I am aware of that cuz I'm so data focused um and I we had one member early on of the finance committee who said if it's not a pie chart or bar chart, I can't deal with it. If it's in a table, I just cannot deal with a table. And I said, well, that's that's

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going to be a problem on budgets, but in any but I you know, the visual it the way to point is a visual really says there's been So, I just opened up one three-person department has been three for five years. So, we had beautiful blue bars. But so, some of this I

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realized there's the tension between who you want to have this be accessible to. But I'm when Sam said he it's the first time he'd really looked at the budget book, I don't know how many people >> Agreed. Yeah, that's why it's always for me like a cost benefit. Like I I'm we're

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happy to pull all the information together that people want, but I it I don't know how many people are accessing it. So. >> So, so just the last point before I go back to Lynn and then Sam. Sam, we absolutely this would not be whether it's a couple people looking at this with Shawn to say what's feasible,

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what's easy to do, what's hard to do. We would reach out to the whole council um on it and to uh people who were just went off the council for, you know, who was on it for a number of years, who are users of the budget book, you know, and what what would have been What do they

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love about it? What What things would make it easier to use it? Um We have one councilor who indexes it herself. So, when you look at She only does an online version and she's got all the pages indexed with with things where Kathy has

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sticky sticky tabs throughout my printed version because you know, so we would reach out to everybody in this um and these are just going to be ideas and recommendations rather than final. So, Lynn, and that's I literally went

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through what tables do I use and when is it hard to find them? Um So, Lynn. >> Uh I I actually before I even make a comment, I'd like to know from the chair whether or not you really want to get

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into the discussion regarding fall meetings because I do have some various thoughts about the fall meetings. And I know I I this is something that Anna has thought a lot about as well. >> So what I what I thought is I'm taking

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notes on this. So what I'd like to not get into since this is a beginning conversation that everyone when when they leave today send any ideas that came up and then one is do we want to continue to do this? We have potentially

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one meeting in July and one meeting do we want to do this as a whole group or do you want to take a couple of those that are willing to sit down with Shawn and say what's hard, what's easy. I look at these guidelines and then come

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back to the whole committee with given what everyone sent to us here are some ideas organized in a word document. So that that's where I was hoping we would go today and I if we want to only talk about it as a group of

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eight, you know, when our next resident member that's fine with me. It just doesn't feel as productive if people have an assignment to do something and come back with it. So I was hoping maybe to get to a subgroup if

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people like that idea. And I'm willing to I'm willing to serve on it. >> So that So what I'm hearing though is that and and just so we people know even a subgroup is going to have to be a public meeting. >> [sighs] [cough] >> Um the

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What I'm hearing is we we want to stick to the budget book and not discuss meetings in the fall. Thank you. >> Yeah and well say what was the part and not discuss the what? >> Meetings with departments in the fall. >> Um well I we could we could segue to

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that. Um the do we want to have those or not and do we think that would take some of the you know, the two are not they are linked in some way. Um So I don't know how much longer people want to talk about this um topic and

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whether they like the idea of a couple people, I'm not talking about a huge group, working with Shawn to understand what would be hard, what would be easy. Um Kathleen mentioned the Northampton, you know, bringing some things up to an

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executive summary that could be read separately. Lynn said the rest looks like an annual report, so come back come back to this group with some concrete. These are things that seem that they could be done without a lot of work. I mean, it would be a new way of doing it,

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but not uh tie the hands. So, I am looking for where we go cuz I don't since not everyone came with a list of things they want to see different um right to this meeting. I didn't expect that. Where do you want to go with this

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conversation? And if you looked at the schedule um that was posted, but we have one meeting in July and we have one meeting in August and I was proposing moving each of those to the third Tuesday rather than the first Tuesday

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for two reasons. One, I'm not here for the first Tuesday and one of the Tuesdays Shawn wasn't here. So, we only have two meetings and this referral had a due date of August 30th um to report back. I'm sure we

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could get an extension, you know, you know, um on it. So, that's why it's on today's agenda. So, Sam, then Councillor Brevik, then Kathleen. And keep the comments tight so that we can figure out whether

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we're closing this discussion or we're going to go into more detail. And I am taking a lot of notes, by the way. >> Uh thank you, Kathy. Uh >> [gasps] >> Uh I wrote down schools incorporated. Uh

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I think that would be a big uh a lot of work to change what's here existing. Um I like the summary pages. Um I'm >> [clears throat] >> concerned that if too much gets done in the it may be a lot to do in a one-year

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cycle on top of everything else that's going on. Uh so tweaking or take extracting from what exists or data that already exists into a supplemental might be a bit of more of a challenge to reach into the school

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uh department even though that's the source of a lot of questions. Um >> [clears throat] >> and as a side comment, I actually liked the consistency Sean and Kathy with the departments to as I was going through

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general government to look at each one. It's like, okay, it's the same format. It's easy for someone looking at it to um just quickly go section to section. Here's the employees, here's the changes, here's the expenses, here's the

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changes, here's the budget. Uh that's and here are the goals. That's from looking at in terms of what we want to change. Going back to the original comment, I separate that from what you're referencing here, the charts I want to

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see, here's the primary information. Uh those are my two comments. >> Councilor Prendergast. >> I was just going to say in terms of next steps, I would be happy to work on if you're looking for people to take this up

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over the summer and work with Sean on getting some recommendations together. I'd be happy to serve in that way. >> Kathleen. >> Yeah, I was just similarly going to say I'm either happy to send my thoughts or help with a small group, whatever is

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most productive. Um having gone from knowing nothing about the budget book a couple years ago to to knowing a lot about it right now, I definitely have thoughts, but I you know, I don't need to be part of a small group to share them. So, whatever whatever is helpful,

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I'm happy to do. >> Anna. >> Yeah, I'm I'm happy to help with either or kind of both projects, the budget book and the discussion on timeline. I think my interest in particular is with the timeline if we're if we're breaking out into separate groups and efficiency and effectiveness of process, that would

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be my my goal area to focus on. >> Okay. Okay, so we potentially have um Okay. Um, so I will report back. So, I I think you know, Anna I

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maybe we can turn to looking at what um the rest of the the spaces we have for the rest of the year in terms of also segueing into do we want to have meetings with the departments on on some of this? Um, so I have Jill and Kathleen and I'm

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willing to do this too and then just have basically have people send in ideas and my one comment about the schools, um, it's not necessarily is uh for the in the first three years

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of the council, the school budget was done and was final and you could look at it. In the last several years, the budget has been a moving document >> [laughter] >> and except for the front So, there is no way of incorporating it in to a document

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that has to be produced by May 1st. The hope is that it would have settled enough that we at least know whether there's a conflict in it, but there if you look at I think we finally saw elementary school

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final budget for FY26 in December three six months after, you know, because the January the June version of it was draft. And so it was extremely difficult for the finance committee to get beyond

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the total number. We couldn't go into line items cuz we're saying those are in flux. So I think it has to be separate, but maybe there's a way, you know, it it will generate probably will ongoing cuz um the municipal is all under one

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umbrella and it has to come in at what we said. So maybe we should um with that said, so it's a subcommittee of three. Um I'm and uh we'll I'll just send out notes on how we want to work. You know, we can

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work virtually a little bit on it and then and then Shawn's availability. Shawn has gone the first week of August or he has a vacation week. So trying to make sure this is done with a a sensitivity of that would be pretty

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easy, that would be really hard um in terms of thinking. >> And just to clarify, we're not opposed to doing hard things. That's what I We'll let you know if it's easy or hard, but if it's hard and it's really valuable like that that's not going to be a barrier. >> Yeah, no, I but I think I I think the

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note is you don't make a change unless it's going to produce something that's much more useful to people. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. >> It's not change for change's sake. Um and and so my comment on searching for tables, I like a lot of these tables. It's just hard for me to find them, you

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know, and I know which ones I because of consistency, I know they're there um and I just keep looking. So I will um maybe if Athena is on or if you can Athena has she's Are the Athena, you still with us?

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>> I'm here. >> Could you show the document on um potential topics? Um maybe first show just the meeting agenda and that's a quick one and then the dates we have and then do potential

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topics. >> Sure. Just uh the agenda you're working with right now? >> Uh uh So, let's see. Okay, now the next one is the um

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So, review the summer and fall. So, one one issue was we had early meetings in July and August. So, I'm proposing and I meant to say August 18th rather than July 7th and August 1st. So, I just wanted to check with moving it to the

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third Thursday rather than the the third Tuesday rather than the first Tuesday if that works on everyone. And then I did an uh literally all the meetings. Yeah. So, I made those changes on this. Um

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and I wanted to remind people that we did talk about adding a meeting in December and we already did So, this this is the current You can download it. It's now in the packet. This is the current frequency that we would be meeting with the summer being the

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exception where we're only meeting once in July and once in August. And in the past sometimes we've eliminated one of those if we didn't have something we needed to discuss. And then two times a month for the rest of the time. And the December meeting

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instead of it being the first Tuesday um which would have been the 7th it we talked about having it the 8th in case the guidelines aren't done and the council sends them back so that that that's allowing for guidelines.

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So that is the the only change I think from March is these two the July and August dates. We only had one meeting. So does anyone have a problem with moving those July and August meetings

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from first week to third week? I don't see any hands so let's it is done then. This is >> Sorry. Kathy, I meant to raise my hand. I am I'm away for a little bit in July but I don't think it would affect I think I'm gone no matter what the the move is. >> Okay. Okay, so let's say that's done. Okay,

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then Athena the other document. So Shawn and I coming agenda the upcoming topics. Yeah, the exactly. >> Sure. >> So this was Shawn and I had an early on discussion of when when what things could happen. So he said this still

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seems to be fairly up to date. So in July and August which the August date is still not right there. Should have been the 18th. I I mistype frequently. Um So we're expecting the audit report will

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be coming to us. A discussion of OPEB what it is and how we funded it. Pensions. So that is I've got it as July or August in terms of when we would get it. Um we early on Jill and others talked

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about what are our financial policies, review of policies and documents. You know, the policies state how much we want in general reserve and stabilization fund, how much we're keeping in cash. So just to go through those. Vehicle purchase policy

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has it was highlighted in um JCPC report. Shawn said he's begun talking to departments on it, but we asked for um coming up with a policy, and this is to take some of the

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uh burden off of the capital budget where we get huge number of vehicle requests, and then they have to be paired down every year. When do you replace a vehicle? How long do you keep a vehicle? Someone asked me the other day if a police vehicle can no longer be used by a police person,

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but it could be used by the parking lot enforcement person who leads just needs to travel around town. You know, do we ever reuse it by a different department? So, vehicle purchase. >> Kathy, can I ask you on that one real quick? Um thinking about that one more. I can't

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remember, did we want this Was that meant to be a finance committee topic or or did JCPC want to have like a special summer meeting? And the only reason I ask is because it doesn't involve school or library representation. >> that's right, Shawn. It does not have to

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be a finance committee. So, it it needs to be probably reported back from us, um but there was interest in at least one person from the education uh schools team, um a little less so from the library team on a subgroup doing that.

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So, this does not have to be our group. >> Okay. >> Um but it has we ran up against it again with insurance policy, how many cars do we insure? Um >> Yeah. >> So, I think we need to know that there is one. So, then transparency, that's the budget

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book. We online information, anything else we want to talk about there? So, that's just put in July and August without saying which things happen then. Um then I did vehicle purchase policy again September, but honor, this is where do

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the meetings for department? There's room in September, and there's room in October to think about meetings with departments. Uh so this is we when do we start talking about the guidelines? Um so September is hazy right now in terms of what we would do

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and what we might want to set up. Then October um again has we we're hoping that by probably that the 20th, the fourth quarter would be in of so we would know what we actually had

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at the end of FY 26 and first quarter 27. And those lead into the first week in November is when we get financial indicators proposed to us. You know, what what what the what the finance department is

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seeing in terms of projections. And that triggers in November after that's presented, um that's when we start focusing on more concrete about um guidelines and to the extent there is a

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closing of the last year and there's certified free cash with financial orders. We've been getting them In the In the old schedule, we always got them in late November. Late More lately, we've gotten them Last This year, we got them in January, but the year before we

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got them in December. So Sean, these are just, you know, time holders. Go on. >> Yeah, sorry, a couple things popped in my head that we should add to the list. Um one, we should it'll it'll go to council first, but it'll go to finance committee and that's the um

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supplemental order for Wildwood. Um managing the Wildwood facility. And then the other kind of bundle of topics we should add, maybe October, is there's a few different types of funds that we're considering

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proposing for FY 28. One would be a revolving fund for Cherry Hill. At least a discussion of that. One would be the stormwater enterprise fund. And that sort of initial discussion of that. And then um and then a facility revolving fund to

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manage our uh rents and things like that that come in around our facility. So, kind of bundling those topics as as a group item. >> And and Shawn, your best guess is that's those will be ready in October? >> I think we want to start the discussion

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early so that if we you know, if the feedback we hear from finance committee council is yes, let's do this for FY 28, we want to be able to start early. Stormwater might be a 2-year process because of the magnitude of setting up

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an enterprise fund in a whole billing system, but maybe not. Um but the Cherry Hill revolving fund and the facility revolving fund could definitely happen for FY 28 um if we wanted it to. >> Okay, so this And Shawn, I'm sorry, excuse me, Kathy, did you say the

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Wildwood supplemental order, did you say that would also come in October? >> I would put that one probably in July and August, honestly. I'm I'm working on a memo for Paul now. We want to um probably introduce that a little bit sooner. >> Okay, so um the council has a meeting

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July 20, so if if we do intend to bring that to finance committee on July 21, then we would have to make sure we get it to the council on July 20. >> Yep, that sounds good. >> Okay. And so this is as you can see, this is great. Athena, perfect. You know, this

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is an evolving um from what Shawn knows about timing and then Anna, this is when we could do these department meetings. Um and it just the meetings with departments is question mark cuz also we talked about major departments. Um

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how do we want to set those up? Um and September is looking like it could easily have some of those meetings happen in September as well as early October. So just a quick these weren't this is when it's going to happen but these things have to

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happen somewhere. So Sam >> Thank you Kathy. Yeah, I I just regarding meetings with departments in October. We just went through a lot. Are we thinking that you know, it's a

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new fiscal year that started in it'll be July 1st. It's only been a few years. Are we essentially looking to just reorient our time frames which I assume is the rationale here. What might we be focusing on with

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departments in this time frame since it's 3 months into the fiscal year and they may not they may or may not have um awareness of some of the implications of the current budget that they'll be working under. I recognize the value of

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doing things earlier. I think we or I saw that there was a very tight window and I think it's a a good suggestion that was made early in February or or January I forget which by Anna. But I'm wondering what might be the focus of the

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meetings with departments in the time context of a budget review. Is this to plan early on to see what challenges they have coming or anticipate for 2028 or what I'm just trying to get an

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understanding maybe someone can help me. >> So Anna maybe you can speak to this cuz we actually talked about it last year also what you know earlier Council and then we've never done it but this this has been one of the issues. Sam has raised the issue with you early on, but

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it would be it would be selective and um trying to shorten the meeting in May because we've gathered information in the fall. >> thinking October versus perhaps January. That's where I'm getting at. So, thank you.

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>> Well, it's So, I think that October would allow us to take this into account as we are working on budget guidelines. Um and it we couldn't do that if we did it in January. Um the the updates that we get from departments are not

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necessarily about specific dollar amounts, which is why in my mind they're not as helpful when it comes to reviewing the budget book, but they are about trends and needs and changes, which are helpful when considering budget guidelines. So, for me October

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would be a better time to meet with them or or fall generally would be a better time to meet with them to understand needs for the coming year. Um I don't think January would be helpful. Not that Let me reframe. Let me reframe. Always helpful to hear from them in terms of utilizing the information we

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get quicker, I think that fall would be a a better time. >> Um thank you. I I understand the thought process there in terms of input for guidelines uh because that's really on the front end. Uh would you anticipate hearing from

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them at a later point or we're really reorienting the the planning process if I hear correctly uh and that might be a very good thing uh to have the input on the front end prior to guidelines. >> I could still see folks having specific

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dollar amount questions at the finance committee. Um however, I think that it would if you look at the questions that we asked in that big long document, a lot of them were not about specific dollar amounts. A lot of them were about overall trends and needs and changes. Um so, I think

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that I could anticipate us still having questions, but I don't anticipate it actually needing to be a week with every committee. I could see them all being done over email, frankly. Um, or possibly a couple meetings upon request, but really I I just based on the history of what we have asked for,

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um, the number that a lot of those really specific dollar amount questions come up in JCPC, not actually at finance. So, I think that um, I think a better use of our time is to ask any specific financial dollar

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amount questions via email or upon request meetings, but we don't need that month and a half of of individual meetings that aren't really pertaining to the specific budget book. >> Kathleen. >> Yeah, I think that's really, um, I'm

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really thinking along those same lines. When I was working on DPW questions, a lot of the questions were really going back to the previous spring's conversations and sort of asked like wanting to know where are we now with that challenge? What what's the

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evolution of that challenge? Not even not even getting into the new numbers in the budget book. So, I think to get a understanding a few months later of how things are evolving would be helpful going into financial guidelines. >> I I will say on that front,

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a lot of the questions are about the the goals and objectives and you might not get as meaty responses, you know, so short after the process as you might get in May. So, I think different questions and understanding challenge probably understanding

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challenges and different questions is a better focus for October, um, rather than getting updates on the, you know, their their goals because those will only be a few months in. >> So, I I I think this is, you know, this is

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still to be planned. You know, one I thought I had Sam on its Yes, it would be early, but um we had an unusual spring when it came to DPW um because they were in the middle of contract negotiations, but the high

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rates of turnover, the misalignment of some of the salaries, and the need for staff led to some pretty significant changes in the DPW budget, the finished budget fund budget. Um So, uh those could partially be have been

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anticipated with the kind of discussion we had after the fact. Um you know, to and with fire and EMS, they will have, in theory, hired the new staff, and to the extent that um the

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staffing is working well with the three, uh there is the question of the next year and the next year. So, we have a few departments that are in flux, and October will be July, August, September. It'll be 4 months in to uh in

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DPW situation, the new contract. You know, have they been able to stabilize the workforce and reduce the turnover, you know, and keep people instead of losing people. So, I I think there's some virtue and as I said, I would for me, hearing from the

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schools at a minimum on enrollment would be useful. I mean, they they they can only project enrollment. They can't know enrollment until the schools open. And even then, some things change over the over the fall, but

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Anna. >> I just wanted to note on um what Kathleen was talking about and Shawn with goals. Um Paul gives us a really, really robust uh multi-page document on progress towards the goals as we get towards this evaluation. And it is kind of

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duplicative with Yep, there we go. With what we hear back often times in the questions that we ask. And so, I think this is another In my mind, this is another opportunity to find a little bit of efficiency if if Paul is going to report to to the council and you know,

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everyone is able to access that report on progress towards those goals, do we need to hear it a couple months earlier again, right? So, kind of what thinking through what how many times we're hearing the same progress message um and and who we hear it from is one of

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the things to think about in that part of the process. >> Sam. >> Thank you, Kathy. Yeah, just to reiterate it earlier than what we did this year seems to be worthwhile. And I understand the

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logic behind what uh Anna's discussing. Uh your comment on schools uh sparked uh my uh memory uh regarding some of the challenges we faced in our

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overall spring discussions based on uh lack of information from the schools. I don't know if uh that would be resolved by this or not. And it seemed to be a issue between the school committee and the uh uh administration, but uh earlier at least

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for those to you know, for that major entity uh just getting discussions going on here's what we're looking for. Um you know, hopefully we'll have uh more clarity of comparative numbers this next cycle than

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we did this spring in terms of some of the areas we were talking about last night on the specialists. So, uh it I see value in it and I could see value as a follow-up at a later point with additional inquiries for some of these

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departments as the year progresses, thank >> So this is the the title of this document and I'll have to fix that one August date is potential. >> [laughter] >> Um, you know, so it's um it we will we can come back to it and

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and Shawn's question about are we doing vehicle purchase policy? We don't have to, you know, it just something needs to happen so we can um there's there was a a Jill was one of the people along with Bridget Hines from

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schools that came up with a particular idea but to extent people are willing to sit down with Shawn's been talking with departments um to do something and this is really to guide the JCP C process to make it um

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clearer when vehicles are being proposed that they've gone through a similar kind of assessment across the different departments um because they're used for different so that if that isn't on there September has room as as well is what I'm just saying,

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you know, where where there's flexibility in this tentative planning um So and you know, I only took this till December figuring that um there is a January and as a January that's a new finance

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committee potential you know, we're not necessarily all on our resident members will all be on but not everyone will be on it um so it didn't even get into the turn of the year. So so Shawn do you do you think that um fourth quarter first quarter those are

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reasonable targets and that this year we'd be doing the free cash certification in November? I'm just >> Yeah, so first quarter fourth quarter that should be fine for October. Um our goal is um

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to do the certification of free cash, so we have to set the um you know, get the tax rate set and all that, which our goal is to do that in November. Um so, yeah, that's our target, for sure. >> Because those are also very helpful input into what actually happened in the

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year that just closed um to looking toward the year in front of us. I mean, that was one of the push from the finance committee to uh change some of the projections around some piece of revenue came from a

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consistent pattern in past um >> Sure. >> into the year. So, I I I don't have anything more to say about this. This is in everyone's packet and I'll fix the one date, so it was to get people thinking about um potential places and then the meetings

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with the departments, you know, my my tentative thoughts were fire EMS, DPW um and schools. So, I you know, I also don't know how how big a net we want to cast on that um

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and what the what the content of those might be like. Sean. >> Yeah, I was going to add the meetings with departments earlier. I think that's potential to be really helpful. I would just try to be really clear on what the target is and I think we're getting

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closer to that, but I think being really clear on the target cuz it's going to be a big change for departments um and I think the goal is to have that information inform your budget guidelines that you ultimately will develop and have that information on the front end as opposed to getting after,

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right? And that speaks a little bit to what Councillor Brevik said last night in terms of finding out some information on the schools after budget guidelines are set. So, I would just give a lot of thought to what is it what is the information that would be helpful to have before setting budget guidelines and make sure that you maximize that

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time and invite who you need to invite to get it, but um that would be my recommendation. >> I agree. Kathleen. >> Yeah, I'm I'm just thinking, you know, we may have a sense of which departments we want to hear from, but I'm hoping

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Sean, if you hear from departments that feel that they really want to communicate something with this group that, you know, that they'll have an opportunity either via email or to speak, you know, just that you can you can let us know that as well. >> Yeah, every department has challenges,

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but I think Paul and I will know like which of those challenges are things that can be resolved internally, which ones require resources that at least maybe the council should hear about, not necessarily that you'll you know, that they'll approve, but or approve additional funding for, but that they should at least be aware of, so we can definitely for municipal departments

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provide some advice. >> So, I think that that's it for today's agenda. Um it is 2:26. Athena. >> It sounded to me like the outcome of the

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discussion about the budget was that you were going to form a small group subcommittee. >> Yes, I think that's correct. So, what I heard >> So, just to just to formalize that, I would ask that the committee make a motion that works in accordance with the council's rules. So, at minimum you want how many

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members, what the committee is doing, what what the outcome will be, and the date as a short-term sub ad hoc subcommittee. And I was just trying to help you write a motion, so

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>> Okay, so I I So, I [snorts] I'll make a motion and you can edit it as I as I make it. I I a motion that we form a subcommittee that consists of Cathy Cathy Shane, Kathleen Mitchell, and Jill

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Brevik to meet with Shawn uh to talk about possible changes in the budget book and report back to the full finance committee by uh August uh

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18th in order to inform its recommendations to the council. And that this committee gather input from other councilors and from finance committee members um to inform uh

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those recommendations. I think that motion covered all the bases. >> I'll sec- I'll second your motion. >> Okay, Anna seconds it. And And so And just so everyone That doesn't mean the door is closed to ideas. So is Send

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any ideas in You might as well just send it to the three of us if in writing by email, you know, so that everyone gets it. And And then we will have to work it arrange times to meet. Okay, am I >> you vote, let me just Can I just reread this back to you to make sure I've

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captured it the way you want it? To create an ad hoc subcommittee that consists of uh Shane, Brevik, and Mitchell to recommend possible changes in the budget book with a report to the finance committee by August 18th, which will inform its recommendations to the council and will include input from

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finance committee members. >> And And other councilors. >> Okay. Okay. >> So is everyone comfortable with that very long sentence? Okay, putting it to vote. Kathleen? >> Support.

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>> Tom? >> Support. >> Anna? >> I. >> Councilor Brebeck? >> Yes. >> Lynn? >> I. >> Sam? >> I. >> And Kathy is a yes. It's unanimous with one resident member absent.

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So, with that, I want to thank everyone. Um I got a lot of praise for the Finance Committee's report with some comments. You know, it was a 29-page report. Um and so, I was emphasizing to everyone

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that that was um a multiple-author report. Uh and people really came through with both the questions for in advance and the write-ups. And I I had to make some um structural

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changes to make them read the same, but very few. You know, it really it it was fairly easy to incorporate everything. Um including uh the uh ways to refer to the written

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responses we had. I think the the departments really appreciated getting those that far in advance. Um everyone adhered to sending them well into advance so we could get thoughtful responses. So, it was a very intense

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month of May, um but I thank you all cuz it really feel felt like a a team effort. And and I it was a little bit exhausting, but we we got we got over that last meeting in June where thank goodness when I asked the president, we

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can send it on June 3rd, right? We're not too late. Um we had that 8 hours to get the final piece. So, I want to just thank you all very much and again, Tom, thank you for being with us. >> You're welcome. I I do want to say

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thanks again. Farewell friends. I I hope I'll see you all of you in town and best wishes to one and all. >> So, we are adjourned at 2:31 and see you in July.