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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=ikeIGubw7Us

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and you are all set to go. >> Good afternoon everyone. Today is the April 21st meeting of the finance committee and seeing that they we have a quorum of members here. I'm going to

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first call on everyone to make sure we can hear and you can hear us. Um and I'll just call you out on the order I see you on my screen. Lynn Griezmer >> present. Anna >> present. >> Tom Porter

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>> present. >> Sam >> present. >> Kathleen >> present. And I'm having an issue with my camera, but I will try to fix it. >> That's all right. You're permanently in front of the a fall foliage, so it's very pretty. Um Jill Jill uh emailed me

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she won't be able to join us today and Joe won't. So we aren't expecting any other members. Um uh we have a fairly full agenda today. I am going to open it up first to public comments, but I want to say one thing that's on the agenda. I

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had said I would get you a draft report. Um I have a draft report, but I decided since there were so many sections missing from it, um that I wouldn't put it to you now to sit and go through it as a committee. But I will have a draft

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by the end of the day today when we get through with this meeting. and that'll give time to get everybody's comments in it um and make changes. So, that's one less item on the agenda. Um I'm going to open it up first to public comments, but

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then we have the fourth quarter report. Sean would blanch at the thought we we'd already have fourth quarter. Um we're continuing discussion on community preservation act on one project the Jones library project and uh we have

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another financial order referred to us the Ammerst Pelum Regional School borrowing order for 497,000 that's for debt and um if we want to continue discussions about superintendent and school library Lynn

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can tell us what has already been submitted on schools and then really just review the calendar for May and I can tell you everyone who signed up for which uh budget issues and I put a whole

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calendar out to everyone. So I think what we'll do first if everyone's okay with that I'm opening it up for public comments and I see um Sean I think you're host and you

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haven't made me co-host. Good. Kent, we've brought you into the meeting. >> Thank you very much, Kathy. I'm Kent Ferour, a resident of Ammerst in District 5B. And in considering the Jones Library grant, I just hope the finance committee

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can help the town council focus clearly on its very specific responsibility to advance the purposes of the Community Preservation Act. goal of the community preservation act is to encourage certain activity including historic preservation by

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helping to pay for it. So the only issue before the town council now is whether the CPA committee slate of recommendations is the most effective way to achieve that goal. Does funding the preservation of the historic woodwork at the library advance the

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purposes of the act or as well as any of the other projects applied for? That's the only issue. This is not another referendum on what kind of a library the town should have. The town council does not advance the goals of the community preservation act by denying this grant

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because the larger library project should never have been undertaken or because the prior CPA grant for the larger library project should have been counted towards the town's funding share or because the larger project should have included more historic preservation

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or because the larger project has received quote enough tax dollars close quote. However disappointed one might be on these issues, voting for those reasons is not good government. Denying support for this preservation work because the work will be done

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anyway and the library can pay for it out of its endowment also does not fulfill the council's responsibility under the act. The roof on town hall will be replaced whether the grant for it is approved or not. And the town has a large budget. Why shouldn't it pay the

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entire cost? No one believes, including us, that that grant should be rejected. Denying this grant because the money should be saved for some imaginary application in the future which will better fulfill the purposes of the act discourages historic preservation

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planning instead of encouraging it. It is difficult to imagine a project that more effectively advances the historic preservation purposes of the act than the restoration of this woodwork. The claims that this project is not eligible are simply unfounded proxies for these

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irrelevant considerations. You will hear later the legal opinion the the of the town's lawyers particularly as it addresses the unique terms of the bond authorization which precisely anticipated a grant like this

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should be authoritative over a hardly independent legal brief commissioned and paid for by Jeff Lee's Ammeris Community Preservation Coalition which as far as anyone can tell was formed only to oppose the library project and the overwhelming customs supported by The

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opinion of the experts is that is that as the law explicitly states only quote the CPA funded project close quote must comply with the National Park Service standards not the entire project. The prodigious work of the CPA committee

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with a level of effort that couldn't be duplicated by the town council made a finely tuned judgment comparing how all the applications this year advance the purposes of the act except for the most clear and compelling reasons that work should be respected if the council wants

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future committees to do the same level of work. Yes, this woodwork will be preserved whether the council votes this grant or not, but it did not have to do so. A larger library project would have cost much less without its historic

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preservation work. The trustees are in undertaking the preservation of this war woodwork in response to the overwhelming loudly and consistently voiced wishes of Amoris voters that it do so. Why is the town council hesitating to do likewise?

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Thank you very much. Thank you. >> Thank you, Kent. Um, are there any other members of the public wishing to speak? I don't see any other hands, so I'm going to close the public comment

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period. Um so the the first um the the way we've listed it the first order on on the agenda is the third quarter uh report

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and uh I can you put Kent back in the audience? >> Yes, let me do that. >> I would do it except I don't have the power. >> Um I think he's >> I got Uh, remove. Well, I think he's already back in the audience, isn't he? You still see him?

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>> Yep, I got it. >> Okay. Um, do you want me to share my screen, Kathy? >> Yeah, that would be great. >> All right. Can everyone see this? And is it legible? >> Um, make a little >> I'm going to answer yes for Kathy, but

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I'll wait to make sure others can see it. >> Oh, good. >> Excellent. All right. So, this is the third quarter budget report. So this is through uh March 31st. So the first threequarters of our fiscal year. Um a lot of things are on track. There's one

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key thing that's not on track that we'll talk about at the end with uh one of our enterprise funds. Uh but we will start with the general fund. So I'm not going to read all these words, but if there's any questions about anything, we can come back at the end. Um but on the revenue side, so we're going to start

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with general fund revenues. We've collected about 75.4% 4% of our budgeted revenues in the general fund. Uh this is compared to last year where we had collected about 80.8% um through this point in time. So

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there's different timing things that can impact it. So it's not there's not necessarily reason for concern. Um the only thing I would take away from this is that our year-end surplus and I think we expect it to be smaller than last year. Um especially in like the interest income. interest income is still doing

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well, but it's nowhere near where it was tracking last year at this time. Um, which makes sense because we're starting to spend that money. A lot of that money that was generating some of that interest is being spent. So, um, some other things on the revenue side,

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um, are you'll see in the report, we'll get there in a second, the motor vehicle excise tax collection rates a little low. Uh, I checked with our collector's office. bills went out a little bit later this year, a couple weeks later, they go out um in February and um because of that, we think that's what's driving the collection rate down a

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little bit. Um we're not worried about hitting the our benchmark for whatever vehicle size tax, but that could also impact the lower collection rate through 3 months. Um and I'm sad Jill's not here because I did uh put into this quarterly report uh what she asked for and I

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wanted feedback to see if it um is, you know, hitting what she asked for. uh councelor Brevik at the last uh quarterly report asked about having sort of a key on the revenue side in particular to explain what is in the different revenue categories. And so that's what that table is. And it's not

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perfect. I've already found some things I want to clarify or tweak. But um let me know when you look at that if there's things that are unclear. On the expenditure side, we have spent 71.5% of the budget through this point in the

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year. Um there's always again timing even on the on the um payroll side, especially in the schools. So if you look at the school spending, they're always going to be a little bit lower than 75% because they pay out uh summer pays to staff. So they're uh not only

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the staff that elect it, but a good number of teachers and paras to get their pay spread out over the summer. Um so those four pays in the summer all hit in June. So, the schools are always a little bit lower than that 75% benchmark and they're a big part of our budget.

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Um, the other big thing to be aware of is that we do still have two unsettled collective bargaining agreements with the DPW unions. Um, you know, if and when those get settled, hopefully when they get settled, um, they there will be a retrop payment or there could be a

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retrop payment associated with those and we do have a reserve for that. Um, but right now that's not showing up as spent. it's showing up. It's an available budget. So, that could swing it, you know, a decent amount once uh that contract's settled and that retro

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payment is made. Another area on the expense side to be aware of um that's trending in the wrong direction is snow and ice. So, we had a really uh snowy year, a lot of plowing, a lot of material put down on the roads.

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So, snow and ice is well over budget. That's the one area of the budget where allow where where we are allowed to have a legal deficit at year end. We don't want to have a deficit, meaning we want to be able to cover that with our existing appropriations if if at all possible. Um because we don't want to

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take it out of next year's tax rate because that would then reduce the resources for next year. Um so we do we are anticipating that we will be able to cover that deficit this year with a with savings in other areas of the budget. Um, but I did want to just highlight that because you'll see in the report

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that that's quite a bit over budget. However, it should be done at this point and there might be a little bit. We encumber a lot of the materials at the start of the year. So, the expenses might come down a little bit once all those incumbrances are released. Um, debt is another area where you'll

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see a a significant amount available, but we have a bunch of uh debt payments coming up in April and May and June. Uh, and so we expect to spend most of that debt budget if not all of it. And then I'm going to shift to enter. Yeah. Questions when they come up, Lynn?

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>> Yeah. Two of them. Can you go back up to the statement about pilot? >> Sure. >> Uh, pilot, you mean revenue? >> Yes. Um the majority of these revenues are received as transfers from enterprise

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funds. >> Yeah. So we forever have had um the re the enterprise funds basically it's been a flat amount forever. It doesn't change um or hasn't changed in a long time. It represents the value of the property they own. Um so that's always been a

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payment to the general fund as a revenue source. So for example, our enterprise funds for >> sewer parking. Yeah. Yeah. So this has nothing to do with revenue. >> No, no, no, not that pilot. This is um this one in particular. We do have so

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our our pilots that are on the revenue side um outside of the state are this, which again is it's more or less an agreement with you know internal agreement with the enterprise funds to um reimburse the town for the property they own. Um and then we do have a

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couple small pilots with solar developers. So a lot of the solar arrays that come in, uh we have pilots, uh for those as well. >> Okay. Um my other question is, is there any discussion at the state level of providing cities and towns with additional money for snow plowing?

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>> Yes, there is. Um they had a webinar. They've collected some data. I haven't heard that it's been approved, but there w I believe there is a proposal um and some money that's been proposed to offset some of that. And Amy Reki from public works has been

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working, you know, on our as the kind of leazison for the town. Kathleen. >> Yeah. Just as a follow on to Lynn's question, when will the Hickory Ridge solar pilot um hit the books? And how is

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that how is that number determined? How is that agreement? >> Yeah. So, that number was agreed. The pilot itself should start hitting the books um this year. Um they just got their license to operate or their

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certificate to operate. It's been several years, but um my understanding is they just got that. So, we should start receiving um that payment. I believe either we'll get it in FY26 or if not FY26, we'll definitely have it for FY27. Um the how the amount was

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determined, it was through discussions um with the developers, with the assessor's office um going back, I don't know, this that agreement's been around for four or five years, I think. And so they look at the value of the equipment that's on the land. There were

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you know that um you know that was part of a purchase agreement as well right when we purchased that land. I believe the solar was already part of um part of that process. I don't you know Dave Zomac would be the best one to speak to all the details of that but um the amount was agreed to four or five years

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ago. Tom. >> Hi Sean. Thanks again. Um and just again on pilot and forgive me if this is off base or maybe something that's been uh washed out and settled long ago. um when

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we talk about pilot rel relating to the the schools and their property in my memory we've we always talk about UMass and and uh Ammerst College and I don't recall a conversation about Hampshire but I'm just raising the question of

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whether um there is any impact this year from uh to to the town in terms of as as either a creditor or a partner in uh in any sense maybe under pilot with the the recent developments at Hampshire College. Is that something

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that you are concerned about in terms of the accountings? >> Right. So, so what we have with UMass and Ammerst College are strategic partnership agreements. So, just want to sometimes they can be perceived as pilots, but they're in some ways specifically not pilots. Um, with

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Hampshire College, we don't have a financial arrangement that I can that at least is coming to mind. um where we do think there could be some financial impacts. Um one is water and sewer. So they they are

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reason you know one of our larger customers in the water and sewer enterprise fund. So if you know the consumption winds down and therefore they're not um you know paying for water and sewer that'll kind of put more pressure on the rest of the system. Uh

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or water and sewer you think oh well if they're consuming less water your cost should come down. Um but really the costs of the water system are based on our water sources and the number of water sources we maintain and the staffing that is required to maintain those water sources. The only time we

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can really make sort of um volume based reductions to our water and sewer is if we were to like take a water source offline. Um and in fact we just added a water source back online with Centennial. So, um, we don't expect it to have a large like reduction in our

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cost side, but it could and it will likely reduce the revenues that we collect. Um, so we're going to be presenting water and sewer rates, I think maybe as early as next week. Um, potentially following meeting uh, and we'll talk about the impact of um,

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Hampshire College and the consumption that won't be there. Um they do have a few taxable properties. Um that won't directly impact the town. Um because our levy is our levy. Um but you know, if they're not paying the taxes, somebody else will be potentially

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unless it you know, whatever happens with their properties. But the main area that we're looking at is water and sewer. >> I appreciate knowing that. Thank you, Sean. >> Yep. Buddy, >> um just very quickly on the um payment

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LO taxes for the solar on Hickory Ridge, is there an escalation or a depreciation factor? >> Um it this this particular one is a flat I believe it's a flat rate. Sometimes they do escalate, sometimes they look out, you know, over the length of the

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pilot and then they kind of find an average number and keep it a flat number throughout. And I believe this one is a flat number. Thank you. >> And that just and just so a lot of those pilots come through the property tax revenue line. They just have a pilot that establishes the amount that they

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pay. >> Kathy, >> uh yeah, I'm focused just on revenues first, but I also have an a couple expense questions. Where in revenues is it debt? Do do you show the um the debt

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exclusion for the school? It's in it's in part of property tax revenue. So the the property tax number >> just sits it sits there. You're not separating it out. Um because there's a debt other department uh revenue, but it's not there. So it's just >> No, it's property tax revenue. Yeah.

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>> Okay. Um so that was that and it looks like as in the several years in a row, our investment income is continuing to run well above what we've budgeted. um are we and I understand where that's

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coming from is the base on which that investment income. So just so everyone knows because I only learned this a few years ago that's investment earnings on capital that's not otherwise in our reserve funds. Um so is uh is that base

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declining you know as we're uh some of the delayed projects are now getting funded or or is that or are we starting to see a number that we'd expect to see next year? >> Yeah. I don't so I don't know if our base is declining. Um I'd have to look

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at that closer. Our rates are declining. So, you know, we were getting four% plus um on CDs. We're now in the three, you know, the 3% range on CDs. So, we are starting to see um those very very short-term uh interest rates start to

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come down. Um and again I you know until we see where the economy goes and where things stabilize at the budget we've set for interest is really what we feel confident if >> that we'll have going forward. Um again you go back three or four years and we

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were actually we were only bringing in$100 to $200,000 a year in investment income. So we're not uh you know far removed from a reality where interest rates were super low. Uh we've heard, you know, or I've heard, you know, our president would like interest rates low.

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That's good for borrowing, but it's bad for savings. Um and so if we were to go back to where we were, you know, five or six years ago, super low interest rates on bands, then, you know, we would even be below the 500,000 that's budgeted for investment income right now. So again, we're taking a very cautious approach

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with investment income in particular because it can change so quickly and it's more or less outside of our control um in terms of rates and the only thing we control is how much money we have on hand. Uh and we know it's a little bit elevated right now because of the capital projects, but that'll um we're

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you know the school project will be mostly spent out by September with some amount being uh reserved for the retain uh the retainage until the project is completely closed out. So there's going to be a retainage amount that will come out later. The library project is

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supposed to be completed around February or March of 2027. Um so within a year as well and that one also will have a retainage that will hang on for a little bit. So we do expect that um going from this point forward our funds will start to be spent down um and that that number will

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shrink. >> Okay. So I just have two more Sam and this is on the revenue side. Um on regional debt assessments, do we just pay our share quarterly? Is that why they're still >> Yeah, it's like an exact quarter. Yep. >> Okay. >> Should be exactly 75%.

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>> And then tuition assessments are running at 65%. Did they come in lower than originally or is there a balloon at the end of the year? >> Um I believe they're trending lower. So that's the charter. >> That's that's main >> charter reimbursement.

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>> Yeah, that's Yeah. So Shannon, and I I got to circle back to her, she's been having trouble getting the data from the state that gives like the the specific breakdown of how many students are in a charter schools and um and the the

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breakdown of individual tuition cost. Um but we do think the typically the number that gets estimated for charter reimbursement is usually high at the beginning of the year and then it comes in lower as we go because they at least historically have been we've seen very high initial estimates for charter reimbursement.

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>> Yeah. And I have no idea um you know I'd asked this once but there if at the beginning of year there's a certain number of people in the charter but then they end up coming back to Amoris it gets prrated. So I don't know when the state >> does the estimate what number they're

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looking at and just is that is that also including the tuition out for our choice out does does that line include both charter tuition? >> So this includes choice tuition charter tuition and then the other big one is um

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>> vocational >> is our transit assessment. >> Okay. >> Now vocational is paid directly that goes directly from the school district to the vocational school. Um now the three the the vast majority of the spe the um state aid assessments is charter

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um choice and the transit assessment and Kathy what I can do is I can give you um there's some reports that you can on the state website DLS website that show you can kind of see where they start to adjust the monthly we get basically monthly bills from the state and you can

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see where they get an updated charter roster and then they readjust how much they're charging you for the rest of the year. Yeah. And that's just so everyone knows this is on the expense side and it's about the third to the fourth to the bottom. And I was just it would be good news if that number was going down

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is the reason I saw it at 65% rather than 75. And >> yeah, but if the the thing to keep in mind is that the expense is down that will likely mean the revenue will be down as well, especially with charter tuition because the charter tuition reimbursement number. So y

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>> is um so if you see tuition assessments at 65 but on the revenue side we are also at >> okay >> 66. So uh the the charter tuition reimbursement is directly related to our charter tuition costs. So if they are going up by less then our reimbursement will be less as well.

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>> Okay. Thank you. That that ends my the things I'd flagged. >> Sam >> Sam, you're muted. Thank you. >> You're still muted. >> You muted yourself again. >> I know some people that would like to be

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able to do that to me elsewhere. Um I noticed in here, and it's it's not major, just the meals tax collections being down. And uh I'm curious if that's a a reporting cycle or or if it's

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>> Yeah, that's a reporting thing. We're actually we think it'll be it's doing okay. Um this there's only two quarters I think it does it say that I thought I wrote that it's only two quarters and there's four quarters. So it's actually doing um it's on track. >> Yeah. So it only so it only reflects the

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first and second quarter distributions and so sorry for scrolling so much. Um >> okay. >> So if you look at where it's at with only the first and second quarter distributions, the meals tax is at 63%. So, so it's over 50% and the summer quarter uh will be a big one and then

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hotel and motel with only two quarters is at 92%. So, um we expect they'll both hit their target. >> Well, that's good because it's just a just a data point of activity in town, which is nice to see it. >> And these are those are also two areas

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where for FY27, we've increased the the estimates for the budget um to reflect that they they're coming in higher. >> Sure. uh when you were speaking about the investment income and the interest rates, a thought popped into my head and am I

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correct that our debt is all fixed that there's no variable implications? >> Yeah, we don't we don't take variable debt yet. >> Okay. Are there separate from that uh were there to be some form of surge in interest rates um where might that

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impact us if anywhere? uh or anything the DPW project I think would be you know as we prepare for borrowing and our estimates for that project if there were a surge in interest rates that's where it would likely have a negative impact. The other thing with our debt is it is callable

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after so many years too. So we can refinance and we've done that we haven't had a lot of debt for a long time but we have done that in the last five six years. We've refinanced and saved you know lots of money uh through refinancing. So we, you know, that'll be definitely a topic of discussion in

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about eight or nine years. Um whether you know to see what interest rates are at that time. >> Do do you f I haven't looked at it in a while. Our oped payments, retirement, pension, whatnot. Um are they

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tied in any way to long-term rates? >> They are tied um to the stock market primarily. Um so uh most more our retirement funds. So our retirement pension funds they are all with Hampshire County and Hampshire

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County invests you know over 90% of the funds with PRIM which is the pension reserve investment group at the state and so they invest you know they invest for long term so they're invested in the market. Um and so they've been doing really well. you know, we are kind of holding our breath that at some point

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there's going to be a pullback and that could you know, the the Hampshire County retirement system has about $600 million in in assets. Um, you know, Ammerst is the biggest member of that system between the region and the town. Uh, so it's been doing really really well. Um,

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and but we are kind of holding our breath that there's going to be a pullback. So the market itself, the stock market will impact the um will impact, you know, how well funded our system is. Right now we're at about 80% funded and so if the stock market drops,

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it could drop us to, you know, 75% funded, but it'll do that to everybody. All the retirement systems are sort of in that boat. >> Thank you, >> Kathleen. >> Yeah. Um ahead of the meeting, I had had a question about the on the expense um

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on the expenses. why some of the budget numbers for the municipal departments are higher than they were in the budget book. And I'm not sure I completely understood your your explanation. So, I was hoping you could just um just explain that a little bit like why why

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has why have those adjustments been made since the time of the budget um being approved? >> Yeah. So, the department budget shouldn't be different. So, if there's something there, you know, we can talk. Um what is different? And so if you look at the total general fund number, it's 101822279.

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Um the number that the council sees when they vote the budget is 10, it was 103 something. Um and the reason there's a difference there is there's a few things that or the budgetary vote they're shown on the expense side. Um but they don't ever they don't actually get into our

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mun system for one reason or another. And I'll there's really there's three specific things. Um one are what we call cherry sheet offsets. So those that is the school choice money in and the um and the um library money that we get in.

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So on our budget when we present it to you, we show it as a revenue and an expense and they wash with each other. You may remember that. Um we show them there so you can see how much money is coming in. But that money goes directly gets posted directly to the schools and it gets posted directly to the library. It doesn't ever actually come into the

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general fund. Um and that's about a million dollars between the library, the MBLCA that the library gets and the school choice tuition money that goes into the school um the school department school choice revolving fund. So that's the biggest piece. Um the other piece um

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is our overlay. So you may remember we on the revenue side we project our property taxes and then we always have an estimate for um allowances uh exemptions, abatements and allow allowance for that on the property tax side. Um and so on the expense side we

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show it as a outgoing resource but in reality it's actually like a contra revenue. It offsets our revenue because it's assuming we're not going to collect a certain amount and it puts it aside into a fund. Um so that again doesn't come into our it's not actually an expense in munice and it never has been.

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Um, and then there was one other one. Let me see. >> Do you have the other Kathy said there was one there was one other reason I >> But Kathleen, why don't you give an example of the department that you're seeing where you can't? >> No, actually, it's actually most of them like it's a it's a slightly different

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number where um hold on let me see. >> Oh, sorry. So that so you may see the total hasn't changed. Where you might see subtle differences is we had a collective bargaining agreements that were not settled when we started the year and we budgeted them in a central

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location and then we have basically since some of those contracts have been settled we have transferred those funds into those departments where the collective bargaining agreement you know for the employees uh related to that collective bargain agreement. So that's where you might see small, you know, depending on the apartment, you know,

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small to medium size adjustments because of um because of that because we had unsettled contracts this year. >> Yeah. And it's and that makes sense because it's it's like between one and 2% and it's a lot of the departments, but for example, it's not fire EMS

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because I think they're they >> they were settled they were settled to start the year. Yeah. And then the other question related to that is that the employee benefits total had actually decreased from the budget book. And so I just wanted to just check about that one >> that that's where we budget the reserve

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for okay the negotiation. So you'll see that line go down and the other lines go up. >> Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you. >> No, that's a good question. >> And and Sean, um you know, I know we never show those. If you look in the budget book, you just see uh by the way, it has the following things in it and

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the reserve. Um so Kathleen we never see that extra line and broken out you know on how much was is sitting there. Um >> right >> so that's where that's gets I've been wondering so what happens Sean is my

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understanding is you're drawing that down and then it goes out to specific departments. So by the end of the year >> the employee benefit line is specific employee benefits except >> yeah it should it should be left with just employee benefits. And so next year, let's say the the public works

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contracts are settled, you know, sometime before the end of this fiscal year. Um there won't that reserve won't exist for next year. So this that that you know what we just discussed won't be won't impact FY27 because all the contracts will be settled in FY27 if we settle

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these two contracts. And then can I just ask quickly if so so in the FY27 budget book these will be the numbers that we see for all the departments for FY26 versus the ones that appeared in the budget book when we saw it last.

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>> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yep. you know that just the the other thing Kathleen that you'll see what if you we're not getting the detail here but the other thing that happens in the budget book is the part of a department

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that's not payroll but expenses that gets updated to what the actual expenses were you know whatever we said was budgeted so compared to the FY 26 budget book um so we'll see that in FY2 27. Um,

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>> all right. So, one other Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Sam. I I just want to make sure I get to the the bad news. >> Uh, okay. Uh, when you were first talking, Thank you, Sean. You mentioned the snow and ice was the one area where we can legally exceed.

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>> Uh, driving in today, it popped into my head. what if anywhere and it may not be relevant to this particular discussion uh suppose there's a bad year for roads and potholes uh which I've certainly been hearing

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about from a lot of funks a lot of folks uh if that exceeds what we've does that have anything to do with what we're looking at here I mean how how would that be >> if more funding was needed would it just be moved from the roads and transportations into the maintenance

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aspect of it I'm curious is uh >> yeah so they have to operate within public works has to operate within their budgets. Um we and we do you know look at all their budgets sort of as a whole on the operating expense side. So like uh if they had savings and equipment maintenance we would work with them if

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they needed more money to fill potholes. Um, but they do have to, you know, live within their whatever was adopted for their budget or we have to identify other funding that's available in the operating budget that could be used to to shift essentially.

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>> So if if it's apt to get exceeded, it would require some form of town council transfer. Is that >> a lot? And a lot of that pothole funding doesn't come out of the operating budget. It comes from the the the capital money. So there's there's a fixed limit there that has they have to stick within

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>> it. It that's what I was going to say Sam. It can't go over I mean there's a fixed amount uh between town and other. So we would just have deteriorating roads unless we could unless we could go back and appropriate money from someplace else. Um it's it's not a it's

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not budgeted in the same way. There's an allowance for it. >> Yeah. I was distinguishing between uh um the you know road replacement plan of course. Yeah. And >> there there is a small amount of money in the operating budget for potholes and

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if you ask Gilford much too small um so there is a little bit of money there and then when they've exhausted that they would as Kathy mentioned it would go to it would be capital funds for road improvements. >> So it it would be a uh council action on capital to

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>> to put more money. Yeah. Um, okay. >> Food for thought. >> Sorry, I just have I just have one more question. Um, so can you just say in the recreation um revenues, can you how do

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those relate to the revenues listed in for the recreation revolving fund because it seems like the recreation revolving fund revenues are like considerably higher than um what's on the quarterly report in for the budget. So I just wondered if those are different in some way or if you could

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just clarify that. >> Yeah. So and it isn't it is you know like this is just how things have lined up in the past. Doesn't mean they have to line up this way forever but this is how they've lined up in the past. So there are three recreation revolving

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funds. Um there are there is the aquatics one that was just you guys just created I think last year. The aquatics revolving fund receives all the indoor pool revenue. Okay, indoor pool revenue and it pays

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for pool expenses. There is an afterchool revolving fund which is for the um program at Crocker Farm prime time I think and that receives all the uh tuition payments for

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students attending that after school program. And then there is the general recreation revolving fund which has a lot of different programs and a lot of different revenue sources whether it's summer camp revenues or uh they do some

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adult leagues, they do some youth leagues. Um there's actually in the budget document, I don't know if you've seen it, there's a page in the budget document under special revenues that gives a a more detailed breakout of the revenue sources that go into uh that revolving fund. Yeah. Um, and I can

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highlight it this year when we do the when we talk about the FY27 budget. Um, but that gives you a breakout of those revenues. The revenues that go into the general fund are Cherry Hill. So, we get the Cherry Hill revenues. Uh, outdoor pools, for whatever reason that

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delineation has been there, we get the outdoor pool revenue. And then there are administrative fe uh, reimbursements from the other revolving funds that come back to the general fund as a reimbursement like a almost like an indirect cost. Um, so there's a an admin

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fee paid back to the general fund from the general recreation revolving fund and there's an admin fee paid back from the afterchool revolving fund. And there might be a few other little ones mixed in there, but those are the main um the main ones. So yeah, Cherry

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Hill, recreate department, golf course, and then recreation. That 206 is um a lot of pool revenues and admin. I don't know if the admin fees have actually hit yet. We I'll have to double check. Okay. Yeah, that that's super helpful. Thank you.

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>> All right. So, then we get to um our enterprise fund. So, the water and sewer fund are doing okay. This is the rev uh sorry, go back to the revenue side. This is the revenue side for water and sewer. So, we're about 80% collected

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in the sewer fund. We're about 78% collected in the water fund. Um we are 78% in the solid waste fund. The problem is our transportation fund. So our transport our transportation fund uh it is not looking like we are going to hit

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our revenue target um for this year. And so as a result, uh you will likely see a order coming to the council at some point to tap into retained earnings um and potentially for FY27 until we can sort of rightsize uh determine if

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there's something we can do to fix the revenue issue or do we have to adjust our expenses to balance out? Uh when we look at it, there's a couple things that are lower than typical are um you know, our our meter revenue is changing. So,

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you know, once upon a time, most of the revenue for this fund came from the coin meters, right? Then we switched to kiosks and then most of our revenue was through kiosks and now we're switching to a place where it's on your phone and through an app. Um, and so the dynamics

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of the the usage revenue is just evolving and our budget is still trying to catch up to where are we expecting to get the revenue. It's down a little bit, but that's not the area. I think we there's some things we can do to work on that. Um, we did lose a parking source. Don't tell Paul. Um, but we did lose a a

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parking lot, right? That um I know he's here somewhere, so he's probably back. Um, but the area where we're actually seeing revenues down the most, and it I don't know, it's hard to tell if it's just an anomaly this year, we did meet with the parking team, is our violation revenue. So, in in some ways, if it's

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truly that we are seeing less violations of parking, that in itself is not a bad thing. It's bad for our finances, but it's not a bad thing for the town if our violation revenue is down because because there's fewer violations, but our violation revenue is is the area that's lagging significantly. Um, and

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so, as I said, we met with our parking enforcement officers to try to understand are they is there something going on that's leading to less uh parking violation revenue. We looked at each of the parking enforcement officers themselves to see like is there one, you know, is one in particular lower than they were last year? We track it

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year-over-year so we can kind of see how much we're, you know, what the violations are that are issued each month of each year. Um, and it's sort of across the board down from last year. So it's not like one one individual is not, you know, writing as many tickets as another. Um, so that's the area that

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that that's the revenue uh component of the transportation fund that's really driving this down and that's the area that we're concerned about going forward. And again, we have to do something this year to make sure we at least cover our expenses. And then we have to think about next year um as well.

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>> Kathy, >> Sean, um when you when you come, I don't need an answer now, but when you come with whatever you uh determine you might want to ask the council to look at, we increased the um parking permits for

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downtown for anyone who didn't have an Amoris plate. Um and there were there was a little bit of concern that that would mean a to and we increased it for everyone but not as much. Um there was some concern that that might decrease the even though it was a big height it

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might decrease it. So I'd be interested in knowing that and um Sean mentioned we lost one parking lot that's one in front of town hall that used to generate about $60,000 in meter fees. But, you know, if

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if if there are places where a fee adjustment could be done, I think that resident permit is still the non local parking. You know, they didn't register their car at Ammeris. I think it's still

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well below what UMass charges for their parking lots. So, that would might be one place we we look at when you come back and take a figure out what you should parking permit revenues are doing well. I have to go back and when we made those changes and see what we had projected, but it is way up. I mean,

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that is one area that on the face of it, our permit revenues are are high uh much higher than they ever used to be. So, again, I have to look and see what we projected it would be at this point to see is it really good um or but but they are up. And I think you're right, we

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need to talk with UMass about >> can we get the cars cars registered that won't help this fund if they're registered here. that actually might hurt this fund. Um because if the the way our system is is if they register their vehicle in Ammerst, the motor vehicle excise tax will go up

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because we'll start getting the motor vehicle excise tax, but they actually pay a reduced permit fee, right? That's we kind of set up intentionally to to get more um to get more students to register their vehicles in in Ammerst. So that would actually the more that register in Ammerst potentially could

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reduce the permit revenues. um if they're currently buying permits um right now. And you're right, we can bring a breakdown of those revenue sources. Um we also, you know, we want to look at we've I don't think we've changed our our usage rates in a while, unless you guys did in the last two

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years. Um and then the other thing that we need to look at once upon a time when we set up the pay by phone, we agreed that we would split the credit card fee, there's a you know a certain charge. I think it's 12 cents or something like that. um for every transaction and we

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decided we would split it. It might be as more and more shift to that and that's the the bulk of our revenue. We might have to re-evaluate whether that's how the town wants to proceed um or do we just pass because that would reduce some expenses if we were not paying that

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that transaction fee um on the phones. >> Thank you. >> Um and I think that is it. Are there any other questions on the third quarter report? >> Um, I don't see any hands up and I will

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I did notice that what you'd done in response to Jill and I thought that was very useful that it she basically asked for a definition of what we're looking at and the various lines that weren't clear. So, if anyone else when particularly people looking at this for

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the first time continue to have what's in here. Um and the one other uh request last year and I think this is more for the maybe the fourth quarter report Sean was to break out some of the big departments by

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payroll and expenses so we can see the extent to which the expense line is going up. That was that came from Mandy. Um, and we noticed both she and I noticed that Northampton does that and we were trying to figure out whether that's difficult or easy for, you know,

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try not to give more work to your department. So, I'm not not suggesting you do that now, but just >> Okay. No, we can look at that. >> Okay. >> All right. I will stop sharing. So the the next item on the agenda is

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the Jones Library project um proposal that was listed as one of the CPAC projects. And Sean's task um among others that he's doing while he in his busy life was to get us more information. And I think you you went to

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three sources, Sean, do the CPAC coalition and the auditor um with a specific question about supplanting and so we're waiting to hear from you. >> Yeah. So um so we did talk to three

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sources. the CPO CPA coalition was actually previously um but in response to that meeting I did follow up with the department of revenue and our auditors. So um I'll start with the CPA coalition. So when I had reached out to Stuart

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Sagenaw who is the executive director of the CPA coalition, um we had some back and forth and he ultimately said technically he felt it fell into a gray area in terms of the spirit of the law. He did not like it. I think he had some

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concerns with the whole thing about you know this project's going to get done one way or the other um and using CPA funds for it. So, um, I would put that as leaning negative, but not in terms of legally. It was more this, uh, I think

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his feeling about it. So, that was the feedback I received from CPAC. Uh I after our meeting a couple weeks ago, I reached out to the um Department of Revenue and Sean Cronin who runs uh one of the divisions. He advised that I go

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to the ask an attorney uh uh webinar that they do several times a week. Um and I did that and I spoke to someone who I've worked with before, Ken Woodland, who's uh the bureau chief of the municipal law division. and I explained, you know, the the situation

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and kind of the different variables. Um, and he said that they don't police CPA projects, so they're not going to give us a ruling on whether a project's eligible. He agreed that he felt, you know, that it kind of fell into a gray area as well. And, you know, did not

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give me a definitive um, ruling one way or the other. And I think the thing I'll say about all three of these groups is none of them were paid to do an exhaustive, you know, analysis of this, right? like our attorney was paid to do that. Um, so I think all of these opinions, just keep in mind they're

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basing this off the information they have at hand and none of them are um, again spending a lot of time on analyzing this because we're not paying them to do that and sometimes they won't do it like the do. Um, so the so CPA coalition, gray area,

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department of revenue, gray area. Um, I reached out to Cabbiz, who is our audit firm, um, and Tanya Campbell, who's audited town for a while. Um, and I gave her both the uh, legal opinion from KP Law, and I

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gave her the legal opinion from um, Anderson, was it Anderson Kger, I think. um and asked again sort of the same thing like do you know would you view this as supplanting and her her response was that she agreed again based on the information available um with KP law and

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their their opinion. So I would say not overwhelming uh for or against but I'd say two said gray area and one said that they agreed with KP Law's assessment. So, just for Tom's benefit, because he

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wasn't here last time, we we pulled this project out of the larger list for the community uh preservation act committee and we voted on the list except for the Jones Library thinking of it's just pulled out to come back and vote

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separately on it, but first with the information we just had. So, right now we have a financial order that's going to need to be changed anyway because the the the dollar sign went down for the Jones Library because some of the work

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has already been done. So, they had it request was listed as 440 and it's now 330. But think of the larger order as minus that line for the time being. So, we're at a point of taking a vote having

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got this information on the Jones Library piece of CPA and I'm going to open it up first for any discussion and then then I want to just go immediately to a vote.

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Sam and I see Sam, Tom, and Anna's hands are up. >> Thank you, Kathy. Uh uh Sean, I just wanted to follow up with a question. Uh I heard you indicate that you spoke to the three and the first one

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being Stuart Sagenov CPA. >> And if I understood correctly, you're indicating that um he said it was not legally an issue, but he felt that it was sort of against the spirit of the

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>> Yeah, let me let me reframe that. He said he said he could see arguments for and against it um for it being supplanting and for why it wouldn't be supplanting and that technically uh it may fall into a gray area and that he from a spirit of the law perspective he

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did not agree with it >> and in that and what you >> did not support it. Sorry. And what you explained to him was the uh question of the entire project versus the scope of

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the CPA request. Is that correct? In other words, the fact that there's a larger uh library project that's been ongoing for many years, whereas >> this request is for a component of it. Is that in essence? Or maybe I'm asking

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too many details. Not >> no I mean it's again this is where again he's he's not hasn't done a full analysis of project I think he's aware of this projects I'm sure he he's aware of these that especially the ones that are not straightforward um so I gave you

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know we talked about the orders the financial orders that have been approved um and how this you know request basically interacts with those financial orders that have been approved um because I think that's the key to the supplanting

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question is we have an appropriation and then a following appropriation um and then we have this request uh that's related to that appropriation request. >> Okay. >> Uh Tom and then Anna. >> Uh thanks Kathy and thank you for the uh

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recap you gave me. I appreciate it. I wasn't at the last meeting although I did I did follow up to watch the conversation. I'm interested in it. Uh, I'll remind committee members. Um, I already I I I also serve as the treasurer to the Friends of Jones

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Library, so I'm familiar with the financials of the organization and the project like you are. Um, so from from that perspective, I I tend to feel this is kind of a cut and dried proposition. And I know you've got a lot of input uh

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and opinions that Sean's walked us through. Uh primarily the KP law one is is what I focus on, but I went back and I took a look at uh and and there's a raft of materials.

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So, um, I've I'm I'm reviewed something called a memorandum of agreement among the Massachusetts Historical Commission, Town of Ammerst, and Jones Library regarding the Jones Library renovation and expansion project, which appears to have been u

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completed maybe in in 2025, although it looks like it was a two-year process at least. um which is fairly recent history in the in the context of this project. Um and it it looks to me as though the

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that under this process that was negotiated, it's actually the library is required to go through exactly the process it did in terms of raising um this uh preservation or submitting a a proposal for for consideration under the

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CPA grants. So it seems like the library had done its part and to me that the law firm feels that uh the uh the CPA has has followed the law and the spirit uh

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to do its part and um so I feel um again uh the library's been conscientious and diligent and open about the application including the reduction uh to reflect uh a reduced balance of payments and so

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forth. Um, so I look at it and feel it's it's it's not ought to be a referendum on the on the library project, but more a um as Kent said, um, but more uh a question of whether the council chooses to support

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the work of the CPA, which is the organization that um is best placed to make this kind of judgment or recommendation and and has um I hope I hope that the council will do its part

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and support the uh the recommendation. Um and uh I understand if I understand correctly that we're we're going to vote specifically just on this one project

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and whether either it we're voting on it as a standalone or voting on whether to reintegrate it Kathy with the >> batch the basket that it came from. Well, that's, you know, I as I write the report up, Tom, so if if the vote is to

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support the project, then um whether it's, you know, unanimous or not, if that's the vote, then um our recommendation to the council would be to support it as presented, which would include the line except for the change

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in the number, you know. So, but that we would be reporting that we went through this process. If the vote were to not support it, then we would be recommending that the council look at a CPA order without Jones in it or one

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with Jones in it and make their own decision. We pulled it out so no one would be in a position of voting down the whole package just because they had concerns about one of the issues, you know. So, Athena's raising her hand on

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whether I've said something we can't do procedurally. Go ahead, Athena. >> No. Um, I just wanted to share that the we just had our agenda setting meeting before this meeting and the the plan for the agenda because finance committee already is taking this aside from the

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rest of the CPA appropriations will be to ask the council to um divide the Jones CPA appropriation in consent and then approve so that they could be voted. Um Jones can be taken up separately.

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>> Okay. So, so we can you can look at the wording or whatever I say because the way I had drafted it is that um it advising the council also to look at it separately again. So, if anyone was not wanting to vote for this project, they

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wouldn't be voting down the other 10. Um, so it sounds like you you're setting up the motion to be able to do that. So Tom, if we we we can vote out what we find, but then we can also have a recommendation that the council do what it sounds like Athena has said they're

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already planning on doing with the motions. >> I see. >> Is that clear? You know, and it, you know, it was to guard against we've had >> we've had this in my time on the council, which is the entire council. Um there was one other project that because

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there were questions about it, it was separated off to the right to an end. So it didn't tie up the approval of the other projects because they all get a notice that it's been approved from C CPAC. Um so so that does does that

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answer your question? >> Yeah. Yes, it does. And I I appreciate it. Thank you, Kathy. And thank you, Athena. >> And Lynn, I saw your hand up. Actually, you saw Anna's hand up. >> Oh, Anna. Anna's hand was up before, but

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now they're no looking. Anna, >> I think I managed to answer my own question. Thank you. >> Okay, I do have I do have a question, though. So what I'm hearing from quote the people that talk about the

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spirit of the law is that if they were going to apply for this they should have applied for it earlier not later. Is that an an interpretation that we can take away from this? >> I I wouldn't say that's Stuart's

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interpretation. It might be others. just >> that is Stuart's interpretation >> cuz to avoid >> I would I wouldn't characterize Stuart's um >> let's I guess I don't feel like I have enough information from Stuart to

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determine that's his his um the sense I got was the fact that this project is uh that this component of the work would be complete either way um was why he felt that um but um making a you know a a judgment call

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on somebody else's you know feeling about it. >> Um I have another question but go to Anna please. >> Well it's it's related to that because my initial question was kind of the we've been hearing a lot of this is going to happen either way and I presume

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that's because this is in the contract with Fontaine Brothers and that that contract's been signed. So, I think that if I'm understanding Lynn's question, that's where this is arising from. Uh, and Lynn, what you're asking is if we had signed it before that, if we if they

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had requested CPA funds before that contract were signed, then there wasn't a guarantee that this work would be done regardless. Is that what you're saying? Because that that phrasing of it's going to happen no matter what seems to be kind of what a lot of folks are hinging

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on. Um, and I believe that that phrasing is coming from the fact that there's a signed contract. This is really a matter of will the funding for that work be for the historic preservation part of that work specifically be pulled from CPA or

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will the library be responsible for fundraising it from other sources other than CPA which is not part of the town's contribution that the council discussed. There's a word salad a little bit, but I think that was where my trip up was happening was we keep using this phrase

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of it's going to happen regardless. And I'm just confirming that that's because this the historic preservation is outlined in the contract. Is that right? I don't know if that was a comment or a statement, but Lyn, I think I'm kind of trying to further what you were saying or or rephrase.

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>> So, I'll just jump in and but I see Kathleen, I think it's because the project is funded. Um, yes, we know, you know, there's a share that is going to be owed back to the town. Um, but the whole project, the town is

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actually taken out debt already to fund, you know, you know, so it's it's it's not just in the construction contract, but it's in a funded construction contract. And so nor most of the CPA projects at least the times I've seen

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them have come in at the beginning when the fundraising is looking like the first Jones library one was to secure the money so they could make a good case to other funders that that the the project was financially viable. So we

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funded some to secure a state grant. You know we've done seed money and CPAC but then brought in other money. So, it's I don't think I've seen any other project where the town had already taken out the debt for it. Um, and the well, it's an

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unusual project, let me put it that way, you know, because we usually don't take on this much for for a building we don't own. Um, you know, so we don't we don't have anything that's the I think the equivalent of it. Um, you know, it would be if we had completely

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funded the school, taken the vote on the school, I think we could not have come back to CPAC for the $700,000 for the fields because the town was responsible for it and that would have been supplanting taxpayer money that we had

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just voted through. But that was all an all town project. Um, so that was part of this when Shawn went out and showed taxpayer it it the CPAC money had already been committed to if the project went through. So again, it was at the

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beginning of the project. So it lowered the expense the tax side out of the general fund. So that's the the gray area here because it's unusual. So Kathleen has her hand up. >> Yeah. I just have a sort of a general question for the group. Um, just who

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those of you who have followed the CPA process for longer than I have in general, like is it how common is it for a project to get to this stage where there there is still some lingering question about gray area where where the

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CPA um coalition and do are both indicating, you know, it's not maybe 100% cut and dry. I'm just curious if this kind of issue has come before finance and gotten to this stage um with that level of uncertainty still around

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it. >> I can speak to that a little bit just >> Oh, Sean would be well unless you feel differently. I was going to say not common. Um, >> I was going to say not common, but it but it does happen uh in terms of the gray area, especially because a major

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uh um utilizer is not the right word, but uh the town comes to CPA often for projects and so I think that which is perfectly legitimate and a very valid use of CPA funding. Um, Kathleen, when I was on the CPA committee, and I know Sam served on it for longer than I did, but

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when I was on there, we did navigate this question um a decent amount and I asked it when I was on CPA pretty directly about a couple projects. Um, and in each of those instances, including the first Jones, uh, or the second, I think it was the second technically Jones request that came

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through, um, which was when I was on CPA. They were both determined to not be supplanting um, in in those instances. But every case is slightly different. So I would say it's not super common, but it does happen. Those questions are raised when when projects especially

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from the town come through. >> Thank you Sam. >> Uh thank you Kathy. In response to the question from Kathleen, uh during my time uh six years uh it's not common. Um

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there's certainly while I was chair uh uh proactive attempts made to you know clarify any details and questions uh at the CPA committee level. Um it has occurred in the past. In fact

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there were questions with the first Jones library uh application for a sum of about a million dollars. Um it wasn't necessarily that supplanting was the question. There were a variety of issues and then there was a request to rescend

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and then rewrite it. Uh but it it's not frequent. Usually they're um it's raised but even when issues are raised there are differing opinions from members of the

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CPA committee during my time period uh regarding whether or not members wanted to support a particular project and sometimes they would reference aspects of they don't think it's an appropriate usage. Um, you

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know, that's from my perspective, that's part of the uh process of having nine members on a committee to seek to prioritize uh

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funds for projects that come before them. Uh so you know for me what I'm seeing here is a question uh that may relate to do finance committee andor

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town council consider the project to be one that they wish to support and why. Uh but we also receive uh legal opinion from the town council

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meaning lawyer uh that it's not a supplanting issue. So that's my long- winded response to your inquiry. It does happen and members of uh CPA uh committees during my time

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would have varying uh questions and sometimes uh that those questions would persist after seeking out similar information to what Sean reached out with today. Uh

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so that's >> Thank you, Sam. >> Thank you. Uh Lynn, >> um this is really a question for Paul and Sean. I don't know if Paul's actively able to participate. Do you

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feel that our passage of this would leave the time the town open to a legal uh question? >> Um I will say yes. I I I mean I I think it could have no matter what. Paul, if you

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feel differently, let me know. >> Uh, yeah. I mean, anything the town does is subject to anybody litigating at anything. Just um but in terms of um whether it's defensible, I feel very strongly that the town's attorney has

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rendered an opinion that is what we usually rely on when we making legal decisions and making financing decisions. So, the fact that we have a legal opinion from our town attorney gives me comfort. Um, okay. Thank you.

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>> So, are there any other comments before I make a motion to vote? I don't see any hands up. So, let me think of how I word this motion. This is this is a motion uh to

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to that the finance committee recommend that the Jones Library project be included in financial order. Let me just get the financial order number. Sorry. >> Uh your motion is to recommend approval

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of the financial order. Correct. >> Yes. Is that what you're >> Well, yes, but I'm just um Yeah, but it's in the past, Athena, you asked me to use the word adopt, but yes,

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recommend appro approval of financial order FY27-07A, including the Jones Library. um with the numbers adjusted based on the uh recent change in the

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Jones library request. So I it's basically uh so I'm not um let me I'm going to reward my motion because we're trying to make it a separate motion. The motion is to

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include the Jones Library project in the CPA Community Preservation Act budget. Um that the council approve adding the

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Jones Library project as part of the CPA uh order and appropriation. And so a yes would be yes, leave it in the package and no would be no, do not. And and someone can suggest better

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wording for that. Um I'd be happy to >> I think it's just whether you recommend this project. I think you got to be clear whether >> I think you could just vote to recommend the Jones Library project or recommend the Jones Library project and then we can >> to recommend approval of the Jones

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Library project portion of FY2707A. Yep. >> In the amount of 330,000. >> In the amount of 330,000. So, did everyone get my my incoherent motion edited down? So, it's it's you basically

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you're voting on yes or no for the Jones Library project in the sum of $330,000. >> Seconded. >> If I'm understanding the language that Athena said and then Kathy summarized is the motion >> and Athena can show it on a screen just

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so we can Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So, can we Does everyone understand what we're voting on, Sam? >> Um, so you re you retracted your initial motion and >> came we're basically voting on uh to

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recommend that the council approved the Jones Library project at a sum of $330,000 as part of the community preservation act funds. And Athena will put that up on the screen. So, I'm not going to refer back to the financial order because it doesn't even have that number

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in it. So, it's a separate vote just on the Jones library. And let's just see if we can. Okay. So, this >> Okay, >> that's it. Yeah. >> Well, short and sweet is good.

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>> Okay. Is everyone clear on what we're voting on? A yes means yes, recommend approval, and a no means no, and an abstain would be you haven't made up your mind. Sam, >> uh, thank you, Kathy. Do we always use

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the word recommend uh, as opposed to support? >> Yes, we always because we are we're recommending an action to the council. So almost every one of our motion, all of our motions are the committee is recommending that the council and it

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should say recommend that the council approve. >> Uh thank you. I asked that just because I recognize that. >> Thank you. There we go. >> I recognize that 13 council members will have their own uh >> No, this

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Okay. Thank you. >> individual. >> Absolutely. You fix you fixed the wording. Thank you. So, we now have >> and Anna had seconded that. Anna, are you okay with this language? Okay. >> Yes. Thank you. >> All right. Then, um, if you take it down, then I'm going to be able to see

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the screen with everyone as opposed to Okay, I am uh since I don't have people written out alphabetically, I'm just going to go uh to Yes, Sam, you have a question. >> Have we completed discussion on this? Well, I I asked if anyone had anything

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more they wanted to discuss and no one raised their hand. So, I think yes. Just uh related to the motion uh discussion. Uh I plan to support the Jones Library

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proposal uh based upon the um recom based upon the CPA committee uh process. And separate from that, I would comment that councilors can, you know, make their own

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determinations, but uh I plan to support it and therefore we'll support the motion based on that. Thank you. >> Okay. So, I'm going to go across the screen with the faces as I see them. Uh Lynn, >> um pass.

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>> So, you're passing. Does that >> That's not an option, Lynn. Are you abstaining? >> I think there's a yes, no, and an abstain vote. >> Yeah. >> Are you saying you want me to come back to you at the end? Okay.

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Tom Port. And for for the resident members, uh, it's a support, not support, or abstain. You get the same three choices. Um, Tom, >> I'm going to support. Uh although I'm going to say I'm not sure abstain

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works like recusal but I do want to say to avoid any appearance of conflict uh I am an interested party to the extent that I'm uh serving in a financial treasury role on the on the friends of the Jones library and I would I would

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not want to um for that to be an issue but I am a non- voter so maybe that's moot. >> Okay. Uh, Anna, >> I'm so tempted to pass Kathy, but I won't do that to you. Uh, I >> uh

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Sam, >> I'll vote I. >> Kathy is a no. Uh, Kathleen, >> I do not support. >> And now I think you're the last person, Lynn. I'm going to abstain because I

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want to think about this issue. >> Very rarely do I use that option, >> but I don't I want to think about it. >> So, the motion passes two to one with one abstension, one member in support,

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and one member not in support. That's what will go to the council. So you're saying this abstension doesn't count in the group the people who are voting. It's a financial order as I think all of them. >> Yeah, that's what I said. Two two in

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favor, one opposed, one abstension, one non voter, >> but it's not a majority of the people voting. And I think it has to be on a financial order. I mean, it has to be a we the abstension has to count as a negative, I

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think. Then >> then I will vote yes. >> Can I ask a point of order? >> Yeah. Well, I'm I'm f I'm I'm I'll report it out the way this is and someone else can tell me whether I I'll just report it out that that the vote

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was two yeses, one no, one abstain, one support, one not support, and uh two people absent. That's the way I'll report it out. >> I still have my point of order question. >> Okay. >> So, if our motion is to recommend the council do something about a financial

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order, are we still held to the same vote quantum as a financial order vote itself? >> No. >> Okay. So, it's a simple majority. >> Correct. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Of those present and voting. Well, that's my question is does the abstain

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vote mean that the person didn't vote on a you know so that that was my question. There were four of us here right >> and there were >> an abstain is not it's essentially not participating in the vote. So an abstension

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it it's not included in the vote total in the same way. So the vote was 2 to one. One person did not vote. Thank you for clarifying two and two to one passes >> and and I will check that later, Anna, but I'm fine reporting it out this way

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because I think on financial orders you can't just uh basically not vote. But but it's fine. And Lynn said if her vote didn't count and therefore it was tied, she would switch it to a yes. So we we know where where Lynn was, you know.

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>> That's fine. Yeah, >> Kathy, but this wasn't a vote on a financial order. It was a vote on a recommendation. >> Yeah, I got it. >> Okay. >> And I would like the record to show that I'm totally in support of this. My only question is the legal issue. >> Yeah.

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>> Legal issue. So I will draft what we just did now. Um and it's clear that some of the yeses were strongly both the legal opinion. The nos I you know I stated why I'm a

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no. So um and I will send it to everyone to make sure I characterize this. So the end is the finance committee had a split vote but basically the majority were of those voting were in support of approving it and then it gets everyone

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who is a counselor we get to vote on it again when it comes up. Sam. >> Uh, yeah. Just to hone in on this point, Anna brought it up and, uh, I think you addressed it, but the finance committee's quote unquote

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recommendation, even if it were against the motion, would still go to town council for a vote on the matter. Correct. So, it's not a it's not a veto of the process, for lack of a better

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term. uh it's a commentary on whether or not we support it essentially. Um and that's what I was getting at with my commentary regarding support versus recommend. Uh so thank

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>> that's correct Sam. And just if anyone looks at the finance committee report on the budget last year, two people were not in support um of a very long budget report for totally different reasons. And so it was three to two and that you

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know but again that didn't affect the later one. So I think we're done with that. Um now we have uh it's 223. We have another financial order. Um and it is the regional school debt. Um and we

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we didn't have the order itself in the packet. Sean has it in order though we but we had the uh certification of the debt that came to us from the regional school. We had the letter and

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I will explain what this is and Sean can correct me if I don't get it entirely right. We get a certifi we get a letter from the regional school treasurer that represents the final vote of the

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regional school committee on capital for the year and the region finances all its capital with debt. So this becomes a debt authorization. We get language that says here's the ammer share and shows our share of the various projects and it

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is it was in the packet. It's a longer paragraph. We turn that into a financial order. If we do not act, meaning finance and the council in 60 days, this happens unless one of the towns disapproves of the

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order. So, what we have done in the past since I've been on the council is vote affirmatively for it if we're for it, rather than just letting the clock tick for 60 days. So if we do nothing at all for 60 days, this becomes a dead

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authorization and it gets certified. So the dis any questions about this, this is it goes into our capital budget and we're not voting on the individual items at all in finance. We're voting on uh

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whether or not to recommend the request for $497,000 and that's debt authorization. So it's debt service. Kathy, can I make one clarification? Yeah. >> Um, so the thing the the information we get from uh the regional treasurer on

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our debt assessment that is for actual debt and that is just our share. Um, this order is authorizing new debt and this is not just our share. This is the total amount that will be authorized. Okay. >> Um, and then eventually they'll do these

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projects. They might be next year. They might be years up the road. Um and then we'll get you know we'll pay the debt assessment as it comes in. So this is these this is the total costs of their authorization. >> So this is not just that was I wasn't sure. So this is not just the ammer share. >> No this is this is the total debt

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authorization. So this is we have to well we don't have to but they have to get the full amount of their uh authorization approved or request that it's acted on and doesn't have to be acted on. >> Okay. Okay. So, I I misspoke completely on that. And we we separately every I

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think everyone knows we voted um several months ago on the roof on debt for the middle school roof. Um and so that's not showing up in this list because it was a separate vote. Is that correct, Sean?

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>> Right. That um and that wasn't that wasn't debt. That was free cash. Um a free cash appropriation. Yep. But that was for the auditorium. But we earlier did the whole Okay. I >> there isn't. >> So this is the total amount and we don't

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get told at this point what the airmer share of that is. >> No, I mean we could we're roughly >> it's roughly 70. It's 80% of it. Yeah. >> So these are budgets, right? So the the final cost for these projects may come in lower um and it'll since it's a

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borrowing, they're going to have an interest rate that they don't know what that is yet. So we don't know. They don't they can project what our share will be but they don't have an exact amount yet because they haven't actually borrowed for it. U but we will be roughly 80% of this plus whatever interest um cost they have.

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>> Thank you. So now question since Kathy didn't even describe it correctly. Kathleen, >> I just have a question about the other towns in their share. And so if if Ammerst will approve this as part of the capital debt authorization, is it the

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other towns are approving the similar during their town meetings so that they're similarly obligated then to to to their share? So they have historically and maybe they've maybe this has changed. They have historically decided to take no vote or mostly that's

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my experience which is going back a little ways. Um they've taken no vote and a no vote is approving. So um basically from the time this the school committee votes it, the towns have 60 days to act on it and if they don't act

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it's considered approval. Um, and so a lot of the smaller towns just don't put it doesn't appear on their town meeting. They don't even act on it. It just passes. Um, I think maybe some towns have started to put it on there, but um, at least when I was there, many of them just didn't vote on it.

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>> Thank you. >> Any questions on this? And then the the motion, our action would be having having uh gotten a clearer explanation of what we're voting on would be um that we recommend that

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the council adopt or approval order FY2703A, the capital debt authorization in the amount of $497,000. Um and and I would be writing a note is

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which was what we did last year that although we don't have to vote on it, we're recommending that the council take a vote on it um uh to approve it. So we could say just let the clock run

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out. So that's the other option we have on this um a do nothing vote. >> Are you making that motion, Kathy? Yeah, I'm just saying I can make that motion or we could decide not to take an action on it. So, I'll I'll make I will make the motion if everyone agrees we want to

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make the motion. >> I want to second the motion because I think we should in fact act on this. Thank you. >> Okay. So, yes. So, I am making that motion. >> Okay. Thank you.

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>> Is there any other discussion on this? >> All right. Then I will put it to a vote. A yes is that we're recommending that the council and you just pulled it down so I can't see the number but >> I'll put it back up. Paul >> I got I got this uh just so people know

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I got this about 45 minutes before we met too so I don't have it printed out. >> It's um 497. >> So this is what we were originally sent and it's in our packet in >> Yeah. 497,000. Yeah.

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So, I will I am putting it to a vote and I will get the financial order number correct in it. Kathy is a yes. >> Lynn >> I Sam >> I >> Okay. Uh Anna

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>> I >> Kathleen >> support >> and Tom >> I support. >> Okay. So that's unanimous and I am do including this in our report and I'm not sure Athena whether it's it's going to

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come up at the council meeting on Monday but I will get it to you in case you want to have it come up. >> Yes it is on the agenda for Monday. >> Okay. So lastly, I I'm conscious of the time. So rather than go over questions,

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Lynn did submit questions on education for the first part of the budget session since it comes up the first week in May and we were trying to get things in advance and people I wrote everyone this but people have taken raise their hand

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for which sections they want to do. So, just to remind people, um, right now there are three people and I think that's fine on on the DPW and enterprise funds because it's going to be a complicated section. Particularly, it's going to have water and sewer rates in

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it. And that's Tom Porter, Kathleen Mitchell, and Joe all said they wanted to work on that. And Kathleen offered to switch to something else. But when you take on a section, you're also going to have to write the section for the report. So I think three three on a

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pretty big part of what was a big part of the report makes sense. Anna and Jill both said yes to public safety and that's police, fire and crest. Um Sam

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general uh general uh government and debt Sam you're on that one and to the extent people and Lyn has education I took the first day which is an introduction to the whole budget and the capital improvement plan and I'll do the

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library and Lynn's willing to do the community services part of the day that the library is on. So we've covered all the different sections. What that means is once we get the budget which will be with us on May 1st

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and um I will show will let us all know that it's been posted or Paul will let us know that it's been posted and the electronic copy will be available. We draft questions that go beyond what you can just get in the budget or or budget

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from the budget document or we've gathered along to get to the com people who are going to be representing those departments in advance. So the more we can get it in advance the better for the discussion because the discussion will focus on the

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questions and I I will if everyone's comfortable with this we as Lynn did she put out a call to all the other counselors who aren't on the on the finance committee if anyone had any questions on >> education to send them to her. I'll do

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that as chair just any section and then make sure they get rooted to the person who the person or people who are in charge because ideally we would put them in one document rather than having them coming from different people. We can also we also had the option and Athena I

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don't remember how we handled it last time if there are counselors who would like to participate we can make it a joint finance and town council meeting and we switched the Thursday meetings to be a later hour to make that more possible and Athena I don't know when or

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how we figured out which meetings had more people wanting to come. Sean, go ahead. >> Kathy, did we um I think one thing I was hoping to get clarity. Are we moving the Thursday meetings to 3:30 or keeping up at 3? >> Jill requested that. And and right now,

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Lynn, education is still starting at 3 because the superintendent has to leave. So, that one still. So, um are is everyone okay with the other meeting, the other Thursday meeting starting at 3:30? >> It looks like Yes.

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>> Okay. I'll work with Athena to adjust those um invites and postings. >> So those are those Thursday afternoon meetings which is the public safety and the DPW and enterprise funds. We deliberately put them on Thursdays or Sean deliberately put them on Thursdays

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to enable if other council members wanted to actually physically be there and we were uh uh conflicting with one other committee meeting. But Athena, do you remember how we made a decision whether or not to post it as joint?

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>> So, in the past few years, we haven't posted the finance committee budget review meetings as joint meetings. Counselors can attend the meetings in the audience and um make public comment, >> but we didn't post them at as joint meetings. We were planning on posting

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the budget hearing as a joint meeting with the council, so counselors can, you know, appear present and so on. Um, but we haven't had any requests for those meetings to be published as joint meetings so that counselors can fully participate. >> Okay. Anna,

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>> is there a harm to making them full meetings and then not calling them if not enough counselors show up? Uh, I think that's my only worry is I think it's it's it's challenging to, you know, get questions asked of us as finance committee members through email where

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there might be follow-ups or further questions from other counselors and not be able to really accurately represent that those questions. Um, and I know that the budget hearing is obviously very different than than these meetings. So, is there a problem with posting it as a joint meeting so that there is the

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opportunity? Um, I can check with the president and see if she wants to post them as joint meetings. It's up to her to determine the council agenda. So, I'd have to um check with her

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um and then we could, you know, we don't have to make that decision right now, Anna. My understanding is one of the challenges was if you post them on joint then it's as if a town council meeting occurred and what are the minutes like

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but if you don't get any more than one other person as soon as two appear it becomes a council meeting and otherwise everyone knows we we're leaving the other counselors in basically in the audience they have up to three minutes to say something. Um so um clearly

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everyone will have their turn to talk when it comes the whole budget comes back to the council. Um so so those are the assignments and I'm uh yes Sam. >> Uh thank you Kathy. Uh I'm wondering

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this is a process I assume that the finance committee has gone through every year. Uh do is there listings of the questions that have been asked in the past or would that just be uh seen by going and watching the videos? Um

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>> um I can >> there changes every cycle, but I'm sure there's >> the the I'm going to give you a partial yes, Sam. So I know in the year I can probably find the set of questions particularly for your area that were

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asked but very often people really waited to see the budget book and um with the budget book if you look at our budget books they have um challenges uh aspirations and uh pieces. So for your

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area uh my my memory it's the general budget there were um things like um and as an example the the benefits line employee benefits line pensions if that's part of general budget has a

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portion of it that for teachers non-teers in the school system. So a question was how much of that line is basically schools but it shows up in the general general fund not in the school budget but I can find the questions from

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the past. Um, and Kathleen, you you told me, I think in an email that you were able to find some of the questions that were asked in the past um for DPW and the enterprise funds and >> yeah, I think I saw the questions, but also the recordings of last year's

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meetings are very helpful because they're I think at least DPW they went through the written questions, you know, and then there was a lot of discussion. And so I think my experience in trying to get caught up is that last year's budget meeting on that topic is very helpful,

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>> you know. So, so I can Sam, I can definitely tell you um which which time your section was last time. I without you having to search for it. >> Well, that's fine. I I can look anyway. It just seems that uh uh prompting one's

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thought process with is never a negative. No. And and the other thing is that um you can come up with a very short list. It's not like and and others will I'm going to be sending comments uh questions in to various people. You can come up for a short list and Lyn I see

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your hand is up so I'll stop talking on this but yeah. >> So I want to make sure I understand Kathy because I actually solicited questions from the full council. Are you going to solicit questions from the full council on behalf of all of the

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sections or are we going to do that separately? I think I think it would be best if I solicited them on behalf of everyone on all the sections and then I send the questions out because if each

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of you says I'm DPW and enterprise funds and go the queen goes out to the other counselors um um there is one counselor who usually ha reads when the budget arrives goes through with a fine tooth

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comb and has questions on every section. But that's not true of everybody, you know. So, it it's going to depend on what people focus on. But Lynn, I think that would just make it easier. And I'll announce that on uh Monday night that

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just get and and also the questions will both go back to the respective people, but make sure that Sean gets Sean is the the central coordinator here, >> right? I mean because actually when you go through the questions it's important to condense and modify or whatever.

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Second thing question is um I'm more than willing to have the questions that uh were sent to the schools posted although Sean you have the final uh item sent to the schools.

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>> Yeah. So we we shared it with the schools and I um the superintendent asked you know the format and I said to give a 5 to 10 minute you know presentation overview and then to go through the questions unless they have written responses to the questions um

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ahead of time in which case we would distribute those you know back to the committee before the meeting. So either you'll get the questions at the meeting addressed or if they're available ahead of time we'll we'll send them out to you. >> Okay. And then the third thing is that I

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really following up on what Sean said, periodically we've had people send their written responses to us even in advance. So some of those may be in the packet. Thank you. >> And if if people want Lynn just offered

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she can post what was sent to to the schools and Sam that won't necessarily be a model for anything else. The schools was is pretty complicated. Um um and it it largely focuses on the elementary school, but it has a few questions on regional.

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>> Sean, did you change anything that went to the schools? >> Uh I don't believe so. I think Paul sent it uh directly to the superintendent, so I don't think anything was changed. >> But just to make sure, why don't why don't you be the one to post what whatever you think was sent?

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>> Yeah. Yeah. If I get any if I get anything, do you want me just to post the question? Okay. So, >> yes. Am I here and post the questions? Even without the responses, I can do that. >> Yeah. >> Yes, please do. Thank you, >> Sam. >> Uh, thank you, Kathy. Uh, yeah, it seems

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to me that your suggestion for sending it out to everybody and having the counselor's email if they have question, uh, seems to be the most efficient process. uh and in both in terms of counselor time and in terms of

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communications from from you. So it it makes sense to get the questions in advance uh from members whether they be on the finance committee or uh whether they be on the the overall town council. Uh so I agree

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with your thought process. >> Okay. So I will do that. the council meets on Monday night and I will announce that um and I the schedule that you all saw that's in our packet for today um where the budget comes in on May 1st but then when we're meeting on

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each I'm going to I will ask Athena to also post that well I'm actually including it in the finance report but so that people know that if you want to ask questions on this get them sooner rather than later because it's in the

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first week or the second week. Um so that that is the process and Sam when you said the process has evolved over time and I guess I think for the last three years maybe four we've done that the if you're a lead you're also

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drafting the section of the report and that that's helped um then as chair and working with my vice chair I pull everything together to make sure a it's the same font but do minor edits to make it work and do an executive summary that

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everyone asked for an executive summary of any main issues that came up as we were talking through the budget that weren't specifically the whole budget. So trying to keep that executive summary short but say something has been a

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challenge. Um but but so that and and then in our schedule, I can't remember whether I noted this when I sent the schedule out. We're scheduled to have the last day to discuss the report be May 28th, that Thursday, but we

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technically have one more meeting if we can't get it done. So the Tuesday, June 2nd, we could finalize our report because we have 30 days from the time the town manager sends it to the from the time we receive it and we won't be

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receiving it until the council sends it to us. Um, so there's there's a little bit of leeway if if some of the pieces of the report become more difficult to write, you know, or to to say what we

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want to say clearly. Um, so Anna, I know Anna's already let me know that she's going to have to miss a few of the meetings. So Anna, I I can't remember. I think the 28th was one of the days you wouldn't weren't be there, but we'll get drafts out to you. So

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>> yeah, and if I'm splitting with Jill, she and I can talk and figure out a plan of attack ahead of time, too. >> If she and I are splitting that section, I think you had us both on there. >> Yep. So, is there anything else? Um, I'm not

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going to um I will I will get a draft of this report done by the end of my day today, which may be quite late, so you'll have it when you wake up in the morning. and and I'm what I'm doing in it is first uh community preservation

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act and the process we went through including the separate vote on Jones then the regional school then uh a brief discuss discuss description of the plan for review of the budget. So all that will be in this report um so people will

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have it on Monday um and I will give everyone till if I can get it out to you tonight. Tomorrow is Wednesday. Uh, if you could get me comments back by Thursday, I'll incorporate them and then make sure that Athena gets this gets

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this for posting on Thursday by the end of the day. I I'm quick at incorporating and I'll as as in the past, it can just be it's fine or this line's not clear, but the best the more you can be specific on what to

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change, the better. So with that said, I think we got through today. Um if and if is there anything any further comments before I make a motion to do adjourn? Not seeing any, I move that we adjourn.

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>> Second. >> Putting it to a vote. Lynn I. >> Kathy say yes. Tom I. >> Anna I. Sam, >> I >> Kathleen >> support >> and I think I got everyone. Paul and

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Sean don't have a say. So, thank you all very much for what I thought was an excellent discussion. >> Thank you, Kathy. See you in a couple weeks. Bye.