I made you a co-host, Kathy. So, we're we're both hosts. >> Okay. So, um I will uh seeing that we have a quorum. This is the February 3rd meeting of the finance committee. And my first order of business since we're
conducting this virtually is to make sure the members can hear and we can hear them. So, I will just read off the names as I see them on my screen. Sam >> present. >> Kathy's here. Lynn >> present. >> Anna >> present.
>> And councelor Brebeck >> present. >> And Tom Porter down in the bottom. There's Tom >> present. >> So I think you've all seen the agenda, but maybe um I didn't ceue it up Sean to
be able to show it. Um but you know, we have a series of information. What's the balance? How does this work? requests that we made to um the finance department. So the first up I'm just
going to go through all of this and I am opening up for public comments. First is stabilization funds. Um how do they work? What is the function of them and the balances? Uh we had a outstanding request from last fall which was I glad for. What is the ambulance fund again?
how does it work and how much does it have to come back and look at the budget calendar again and that's a general discussion about things like are we going to get a midpoint reestimate so the things Sean has been working on now particularly that the governors come out
with some budgets issues and then um the uh Anna had also underneath that number five Anna had asked that we consider whether we want to have any um early meetings before May with departments. So
have a she can talk about what she has in mind and we could have a discussion. And so this is this February budget update is all in that. Um then the agenda for the next finance committee meeting. I wanted to see whether it would be all right with people to switch
it from the 17th to the 24th. And that's a timing so that we're anticipating the council will get uh financial orders and certified free cash. So we would be able to meet the day after that rather than waiting for two weeks. So we're off
cycle with our first and third from the way the council's meeting right now. So those are what we have on our agenda. So my first order is to open it up for public comments. And I did want to have
a quick discussion on minutes also. So we are open for public comments. And when I look at the attendee list, we have no attendees. So I will uh look again at the end of the meeting just to see to reask about
public comments in case people didn't see this um uh notice since we are meeting at 1:00 rather than two which if old-timers would have re remembered. So Sean, I think it's basically turning it over to you and the first on the list or
stabilization funds, the various places we have sequestered funds. All right. So I thought this got sent out to everybody, but it did not. So I will make sure I distribute this to everybody. Um, this is the section >> I I sent it to everyone. >> Oh, you did? Okay. I didn't see in the
packet, but I'm all right. Good. I'm glad I got it. Athena for some reason didn't post it. >> Okay. Um so we have um a policy on reserves that we've updated uh over the years especially as the council has made certain decisions. Um so the the general
overview of our reserve policy is that we strive to set aside 5% of our operating budget in free cash. That's for sort of shortterm during the year emergencies or or things that might pop up. I think there's one year where a
bridge got damaged and the town needed to appropriate some quick funds to uh put up a temporary bridge. Things like that that are sort of one-time, not huge um and um you know need need urgent action uh that's outside of our regular
budget. After 5% of free cash, we uh the town has a general stabilization fund. Um and real quick on on free cash, it requires a majority vote of the council to appropriate for free cash.
Then we have general stabilization. And a few years ago, we uh updated our policy to basically say that we want to keep 10% of the operating budget in general stabilization. This is more for economic downturns, not necessarily like one-time um capital
needs or emergency needs. This is more for a prolonged economic downturn where we may need a source of revenue for, you know, two to three years is really what it's supposed to reflect. Um and so in order to put money into stabilization,
um it's a twothirds vote. There's a there was a change in the law. So, if we have a general stabilization fund, in order to appropriate from a general stabilization fund, it's a two-thirds vote. If we have a special purpose stabilization fund, which is um we have a couple of those. If we have a special
purpose stabilization fund, then it's only a majority vote to appropriate. And that was a a small nuance and a change that was made a couple years ago. after our general stabilization fund uh the town discussed well what do we do if
our if we have money left uh beyond that and we knew we had these large capital projects looming. So the town created a capital stabilization fund which would be one of those special purpose stabilization funds. And so any uh reserves beyond the 5% for free cash and
be beyond the 10% for general stabilization go into our capital stabilization fund except for a couple exceptions I will talk about in a second. Um and so we've built up that capital stabilization fund. You know, at one time our goal was to be able to
fully pay for our fire station. Um, as construction costs have risen rapidly in the last few years, um, there's only so much debt the town can take on and and, you know, be be um, you know, be responsible. And so the option that uh,
we started pursuing is could we set aside enough funds to essentially pay for the fire station. Um, and good progress was made in a very short period of time. Um, but I know there's been some different conversations the last couple years. I think we need to renew that sort of planning for all four
projects at some point soon. I know we've got two of the projects started, but the fire station still sort of hanging out there. So, that's capital stabilization. Then, um, the council decided that it wanted to basically build a reserve of up to $2 million for
reparations. So, we have a reparation stabilization fund and whatever the town receives in cannabis revenue um and cannabis excise tax revenue. That money goes into uh the following year, we transfer that money into the reparation
stabilization fund. So, you know, we'll talk talk about this later, but part of our surplus each year, there's some amounts in our surplus at the end of the year that are basically revenues we don't budget because we know they're going to get transferred to some other use. And that that's an example of one
um that gets transferred every year. And then I think that am I missing one Kathy? I think that covers all of our stabilization funds >> and our cash. >> You know, the only one I wanted to um it's not called a stabilization fund,
but the opioid money that shows up in revenues for us goes into something called a revolving fund. But it's it's another one well you can describe but it's another one that doesn't doesn't fall into the general fund. Yeah. >> Yeah. And that one's more required by
law. So uh the town was part of a a statewide basically class action lawsuit against some of the opioid um manufacturers. The the state attorney general negotiated a settlement. So we will receive um basically settlement
funds every year for the next 15 to 20 years. There's a schedule. And so those funds um we can there's an action that I can bring to the council at some point which would essentially have those funds go directly into the revolving fund. We haven't done that yet. There was a the
state pass a law that allows us to do that. When these first started getting received, that law didn't exist. So they would come into the general fund as general fund revenue, go to free cash, and then we would basically appropriate them into the revolving fund. Uh but yeah, those opioid uh settlement funds
go into um an opioid revolving fund and then our health director is the primary person in charge of um spending them in accordance with you have to have an opioid mitigation plan that we submit to the state and so on. So um there's a lot of rules around it, but that's where those funds go.
>> So on any questions and comments and I see Sam's hand is up and the other thing that was put into the packet is the current balances of these. But first, I think just to understand how these funds work. Sam, then Jill, uh, councelor
Breivik, and then Lynn. >> Sam. >> Uh, thank you, Kathy, and thank you, Sean. Uh, Sean, can you just confirm for me? I want to make sure I heard correctly. Uh, you indicated for the general stabilization fund there's a two-third vote requirement. Did I hear you say majority vote for free cash?
>> Uh, yeah, it's a majority vote for free cash to appropriate. It's a twothirds majority for the general stabilization fund >> and it's a majority vote for a special purpose stabilization fund. >> Thank you. >> And it's the special purpose just to make that clear. Is that >> that would be capital and the
reparations fund? Yep. >> And that's Sam that's to take it out >> if you understood that. That's to take it out. Yeah. two/3s for stabilization, five uh majority for free cash andor a special uh
>> special purpose special purpose. >> Yep. >> Jill, >> um two questions. One, how do does the there's like a special education stabilization fund or maybe that's a revolving fund? >> Yeah, that's kind of a unique fund. Um,
so that was created, I don't know, maybe five or six years ago now. Um, that's a unique fund. So that is more on the school side, but we do have some funds there. That one I'd have to pull up the rules because it is very unique where if the school committee decides they want
to use it, they have to put in a request to the council and the council would have to approve use of those funds. Um, but we do have a special ed st um it is called a stabilization fund, but I don't know if it technically falls under this type of stabilization funds. Um, but we do I think last time we looked I'll have
to go see what our balances were, but there's some there definitely is money in there for the elementary schools. I think there's a small amount in there for the regional schools. The regional schools maintain their own, they're not on our books. >> And I know that one has a specific purpose where if like the number of students with special
>> Yeah. So, that one's for unanticipated special education needs. Um, it's not it's not necessarily meant to be like a a funding source for things you know about. It's more if you have a student move in mid year that you didn't plan for that you have that fund those funds available.
>> But does it does do funds go into it from the surplus? >> Yeah. So once upon a time I I I was the one that did it but I can't remember exactly how we did it. Um but we put money in I believe when we had money left over at the end of the year in the elementary budget. We brought some
action. Back then we were we had town meeting. Um, so there was something brought to town meeting uh for them to approve to put money into it >> and and it'd be much easier nowadays with with town council >> and Jill in the um guidelines we have a footnote on the elementary one that
money that was put in has accumulated just in earnings and it's never been drawn on you know so that there was seed money and I'm not sure how the regional what the regional funding was but when region talked about it it was similar it's it sat there and not been drawn on.
So, it's not that there's money being put in every year because they didn't have a target amount um since they haven't been using it. So, I don't know. >> And there's also limitations on that fund. There's a cap. I think it's 2% of net school spending. Um we're not there
in terms of we haven't funded it to the maximum, but there's again this is what makes it different than other stabilization funds. There's a um a maximum that they put on that fund. the state. >> If we were to draw down on it, we would presumably put money down. >> Replenish it.
>> Yeah, I think that's what the budget guidelines actually say this year is that if any funds were going to be drawn down that there would be action taken to replenish it. >> And then just one other quick question on the process for spending out of the general stabilization fund. Are there
guidelines around that? I mean, it sounds like from what you said, it's not something we do often. and would only be in the case of a prolonged economic downturn. But are there like criteria of what qualifies for that and how does that work?
>> Yeah, I mean I think we were considering using it when COVID hit. That was a time when there was a lot of uncertainty around state aid and if we were to see a reduction in state aid um that would be a circumstance when we might consider using stabilization. um the way it would theor um like functionally work
depending on how um how the economic emergency hit us if we knew about it in advance it'd be part of the budget process so it would be built into the budget process as a funding source if it was something that happened midyear um which has happened in the past where the state has done something called 9C cuts
where they cut state aid middle of the year because of economic conditions um then we might need to do some sort of special appropriation but I think generally it would be part of the budget process if we were to use it. >> Lid um let me follow on because I think
this was an important part of the discussion during guidelines development and that is when we use those funds it's we're not we should not be looking them to them as a way to fund for the same student in the following years. those
funds should come from the regular budget. So, it's really only there for a one-year use for those kinds of emergencies. But my question, Sean, was you mentioned a change in the vote quantum. >> Is that a state decision?
>> Yeah, I can send it out. There was a a Department of Revenue um IGR uh guideline that came out that essentially lowered it used to be two-thirds for all stabilization funds, but they um the theory was that if you took a two-thirds majority vote to create the
stabilization fund in the first place, which is what it requires to create them, why do you have to then do a two-thirds majority vote to use it for that same purpose that you already created it for? I think with general stabilization, there is no specified purpose. So that's why they didn't apply
it to that. But um yeah, I can send that IGR out. >> Yeah. Um and I I'd want to go back on the use of the um general reserves uh for economic downturn. Um the last time I believe that the town had to use them
was during the 2008 recession. And um because in that year the state in February recalled grants that were supposedly year-long grants and they were 8 months into the grants and they
cut them off at only half price. Um my experience at that point was with the university. So obviously we had to find the money to either cover personnel, lay them all off and also we had to cover two months that wasn't otherwise
available. I I mention this because one of the biggest concerns about the fiscal year that we're going into at the state level is the possibility of seeing 9C cuts again. And I hope we don't. It's brutal. Um I think the governor's been
trying not to have that, but it's really I mean back in 2008 it was literally used to keep employees employed uh that was otherwise would have been laid off. So >> Jill,
>> just a small clarifying question on the 10% in the general stabilization fund. Is it that we can't exceed 10% or >> so when it maximum? >> Yeah. So that's the target. So um our
goal is to have 10%. If we're below 10% and we have excess free cash beyond the 5% free cash, we would bring general stabilization up to 10%. If general stabilization gets over 10%, then we bring that difference to capital stabilization or appropriate it for
capital needs. um roads and um so every typically we do this in the fall but it's a little bit later this year we will bring uh a series of transfers to the council and those transfers go through a lot of these reserves that we've talked about. So, it's what is 5%
of what is the new 5% number and that amount? What is the 10% number and what's that amount? How much money do we have above and beyond that? And what are we what is the town manager proposing um to use that for? Whether to put it into capital stabilization appropriated for roads, appropriate for some other
project. But every um every fall roughly at winter, uh those orders are brought to the council. So, you'll see them probably at your next meeting, I think. And and Jill, just so you know, those are our financial guidelines. So the
current former government, the council, we inherited those because they were set during town meeting and select board, but we looked at them and affirm them, you know, conf confirm them. So there's not a state requirement of 10 and and
some towns are lower than that in their stabilization fund, but we have been aiming for that for all the reasons Lynn and Sean have said that that keeping at that level. We during COVID we lost uh
what is called the other retail revenue. We basically saw that go through the tubes in terms of restaurant and and Mary's people weren't eating out because the restaurants weren't open, you know. I mean, we we saw a whole line of revenue disappear completely. Um people
didn't buy new cars, you know. So, excise everything was coming in low for us. Um but that's so when you just think it's it's not a fixed number given to us from some state rule. It's an internal policy and Shawn set up under Shawn and
under the council, we set up the capital stabilization fund to start reserving money for the buildings we had coming down the road. >> And the other two real quick just benefits of having those reserves. Um so one right now when interest rates are
high it benefits the town. So the interest earned on the general fund on the free cash becomes a general fund revenue source. um the interest earned on the stabilization fund stays with the stabilization fund but then can be transferred to capital and help with capital needs. So um by having the
reserves it it generates interest revenue. Um and then the other thing that we just um had did yes um yesterday we had our bond rating call for debt that's about to be issued and the thing that has gotten Ammeris to where we are
and has got us to a double A plus credit rating. we want to go to AAA, but right now we're double A plus. Um, is our reserves. That's one of the things that is always noted as being in a in a position of strength for the town. Um, and if our reserve percentage was to fall below a certain amount, it could be
it would potentially be a negative or it would reverse some of the positive gains that we've built. Lon, do we also use reserves as float, if you will, for evening out um borrowing times when we have to stay below a certain
level. I'm thinking of your model for >> Yeah. I mean, not directly, but it it helps with cash flow. I mean, having the reserves helps with cash flow, especially right now when we have two big building projects um with, you know, we have five to 7 million worth of invoices going out every month for those
two projects. Um it provides a little makes the treasur's job a little easier to have that extra cash flow. >> Anything else on reserves and and in the in the well you were sent it all and once we posted in the packet were the current balances. So we we had a balance
in the budget book the balances were reported and I think that balance was as of April 2005. So Sean gave us current balances. So, one of the things you can see if you look backwards is what Sean just said. They're earning interest, you
know. So, they they're they're growing because of the base. Sam, you're muted. Sam, >> thank you, Kathy. Following up on Sean's comment regarding our bond rating, uh,
popped into my head out of curiosity, what would be the impact of a change in the bond rating in terms of our borrowing costs? >> Yeah. So, I can't say a specific number.
We do get reports every um month from our financial adviser that all the clients they work with, the bonds they've issued, what their rates are, and um what their rating is as a community. And the, you know, the general rule of thumb is that the higher
your rating is as a community, the better the interest rate is that you get. But I think it's it's very it varies so much from issuance to issuance. And right now for month to month that it's hard to quantify. Um, but I would think on average we would see higher interest rates if we were to
not be a double A plus and likewise trying to get to AAA that we would get better rates if we were able to get there. >> Do they do they like interpolate or is it like eighth of a percent each time type? >> Yeah. I mean, so the way interest rates are established, our banks bid on our
debt. So it's not every every time we go out to issue debt, we have competition. And so >> it might be a time when there's not a lot of other debt being issued out there in the state and banks are really aggressive and they might even if you were a lower rating they might give you a really good rate. Um or could be a
different time. So it's that's why I can't really speak to it because it's ultimately it's a competitive process. Um and I don't know I don't know what the banks do on their side when they look at the different levels of debt. >> And as a last followup on that, what do you see happening with borrowing costs
currently? um >> rates for new for new issuances. >> Yeah. So I the last time we spoke with our financial advisor, I think generally will be um short-term rates will be trending downward. Um those are the ones
that are most impacted by Federal Reserve action are the short-term rates. Longer term rates are more reflection of the economy and um those have trended downward a little bit, but it's those are less easy to predict what the long-term rates will look like. And that's what most of our debt is, you
know, we're working on now is long-term. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions on the stabilization funds? Um, so next up is the ambulance fund. >> All right. So the town has an ambulance
fund and the fund the revenues that go into the ambulance fund are from a few different sources. um primarily insurance proceed. So when our um EMS staff transport somebody to the hospital, they can bill insurance um
either their private insurance or if they're on um Medicaid or Medicare, we could build those insuranceances and get money into that fund. So that's the biggest source. Um we also provide ambulance services to Alum Lever and Shootsberry. And so we have
intermunicipal agreements with Pelum Lever and Shootsberry and they pay us um about $35 to $40,000 a year each uh for those services. Then we also have strategic partnership
agreements with um University of Massachusetts and Ammerst College. Both of those strategic partnership agreements have um carveouts for ambulance services and so those revenues are also going into
that fund. So for UMass it's about $700,000 a year. Um for Ammeris College I'll have to double check but it's I think $200 or $300,000 a year. Uh but those funds are going into the ambulance fund. So all of these proceeds go into the
ambulance fund. Um and then each year during the budget process, a portion of the balance is appropriated to support the overall operating budget and really is meant to sort of reflect, you know, indirectly support the fire and EMS department of the town.
The ambulance fund is a receipts reserved for appropriations fund, which is um a very unique type of fund, which means we can't appropriate anything that's not already in the fund. So you have to have the balance. You can't you can't appropriate based on
anticipated revenues. You have to have the revenues in the fund before you can appropriate. So the balance that's in the ambulance fund uh might look a little bit larger. And part of the reason is it's we have to have the money in the fund before we can appropriate. The other reason for that balance is
it's also used for capital. So when we need to buy an ambulance um or ambulance uh other EMS equipment, stretchers, uh radios, different things that they use um the ambulance fund is a funding source for that. So and the way that
again happens is through the budget process through the capital plan. You'll see in the other financing sources section of the budget under revenue, you'll see a line for ambulance fund. That's how much is being pulled out of the ambulance fund. Um and then depending whether it's operating or capital on the expense side, the
operating cost would be in the town budget. The capital cost would be down in the capital section. Um but they basically are a wash um what comes in >> are there >> and questions? >> So are I saw Tom's hand go up and down
but right now Tom doesn't seem to be there. Um, so I I have a question Sean on a >> it looked like it's it's the fund balance now is around 5 million in in terms of what you sent us. >> Do we try to m keep it at that level or
do we um knowingly get a lot lower than that in the year we have to buy like we bought a ladder truck, we bought a a couple ambulances. Um, >> so this wouldn't be for fire. It can't be used for fire. >> So, it can only be used for the ambulance.
>> Yeah. Only for the ambulance side. Um, no. I think I think one thing and and there's going to be a plan as part of the budget process brought to the council. Um, I think we can we're going to look at our ambulance funds. We've done a few few things in the last couple years. One, those strategic partnership agreements have gone into effect and
those generated more money for ambulance services than we were were receiving previously. And um two, we've been looking at our rates and making sure that our rates are competitive with the state and with our neighbors. Um we use a billing
company called Comstar. They're they do all the billing for us and they have clients throughout the state. So we're able to get really good information from them on how our rates compare to other other communities rates. So, one of the things that we're going to do as part of the budget process and and ultimately be
part of the budget is look at how much we're bringing in ambulance revenues, how much we're using to support the budget, um, you know, the the the goal of the council through the budget guidelines to look at staffing levels for, uh, for the EMS and fire department, um, and see if there's
anything that can be done with that ambulance fund. So, no, you know, not not forecasting anything, but that will be part of that process uh, this year. So would that mean when we're buying an ambulance that we can usually buy it in cash rather than debt finance it?
>> Yes. Yeah. We generally don't borrow for ambulances and part of that reason is because we have the ambulance fund. Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? Tom, I saw your hand went up and then down. I didn't know whether that was, you know, we moved too fast off of specialization,
but I didn't >> Well, Sean, yeah, thank you. I Sean did answer the question. Sean answered the question that I was going to raise which was about whether it was restricted just to operating outlays or to or or to capital expenditures and uh we got to that so I I my questions answered.
Thanks. >> Anything else on these topics? Um you know and I and and I want to thank everyone for raising them. the ambulance fund. I just knew it existed. So it was a really good explanation of both money
in money out and level. Um so next um I think is budget meeting calendar in general um is as I'm remembering the next piece and then in
that mix is the update the midFebruary update and Anna you had asked to have a discussion we would normally be starting the focus discussions with schools and with departments In May, we have since
I've been on the council, the one exception was a partial exception is we had done the assessment method and the capital side of the region earlier than May, but we did the operating side in the context of the whole operating
budget. So, we did them all together in May. So on a you know whichever order because we have the Shaun update too it it affects our calendar the finance committee's calendar as well as the town. So Anna >> absolutely and and I am focusing on the
operating budget piece of this not the capital budget piece. So I want to take the two separately right now like Kathy said we hear from departments in May. This is after the town manager has has built his budget using the uh the town
council's financial guidelines. I believe that it would be more beneficial to hear from departments about their operating budgets in November. November is when we have our when we have held our public forums on the budget and we get input from the public about how to
build those budget guidelines. In my mind, it makes sense to hear from those departments at the same time as we're creating the guidelines. if there are specific questions about a budget that come up after, we could ask Paul to ask the department to come speak with us in
May. But since the council can only reduce budget items, I'm I'm again I'm I'm going to focus on the operation the the municipal side, not the school piece. So, but since the council can only reduce and cannot increase and cannot move around line items within a
budget, we are hearing from departments, but they're not bringing us line items with the intent that we reduce them because Paul gives us a balanced budget. So, we're not typically looking to cut. If Paul stopped bringing us a balanced budget, those conversations with staff
would be really different because we would be looking at every single department saying, "What do we need to take away?" Personally, I'm glad he doesn't do that. If we keep it in May, we need to have a frank discussion about what the purpose of those meetings is. It's really great to hear from staff,
but to what end? We're not looking at specific line items and saying we're going to cut XYZ. We're going to remove XYZ, which is the only thing that we're allowed to do by law to those budgets. We have much more latitude as we're creating our budget guidelines. So, if
we're meeting with these departments to understand how they work and what their needs are, it makes sense to meet with them in November so that that information can inform our budget guidelines that we write. If we're looking at light items to reduce, then May makes sense. But I wanted to have the conversation because I when I sat on
finance before felt like the May meetings were a really great opportunity to learn more about the departments, but were not effective in terms of informing our our discussions about the budget. they would have informed our conversations about the guidelines much more effectively.
>> So um I just want to give everyone a chance to weigh in on this before I say anything. So any hands so Anna know just in terms of clarifying for we are in February now. So November was several
months ago you know so so this we actually had this discussion with a potential Novemberish and because of vacancies in the finance department we didn't pursue it you know this past calendar year. So are you
thinking of looking forward to November November this year at 2026 is my question. >> There's no clean way to do this without having one year where we either have nothing or double. I would rather hear
from the departments this year and have that be the last time that we hear from them in May and then start hearing from them in November because the council hasn't heard from them yet. So I think that if we switch to May, it should be next this coming May. >> Okay. Sorry.
>> Okay. Thank you. That that that certainly makes things easier. And just so everyone knows, if if you go back and look at it, it's it's the really big departments, you know, as opposed to oneperson departments that that matter a lot because there's a lot of staffing
and then there's a lot of costs and, you know, hearing hearing about staff turnover, staff vacancies or stresses is is in several different, you know, so so you're talking about doing thinking in terms of planning for with town staff.
How would we do that in a way that would make sense for us in the fall? >> And if we talk and again, it's really to inform the budget guidelines, but and Sean, I'm happy to to hear any and all uh arguments if you agree or disagree from the and from the perspective of staff, but I think that would be helpful
to know kind of whether or not they you think that they would find it a better use of their time or a worse use of their time or something altogether different or a neutral. I mean, I think we'd have to we'd have to really rethink some of our internal
processes. Um, so right now, you know, staff work on their their individual budgets. They work on staffing levels. There's kind of a cra um done in order to be ready to have, you know, to review those with um the
council. If you were to do these in November, um >> be too late. >> Well, you just you'd it'd be a different conversation, right? it wouldn't you wouldn't be looking at actual budgets like you do in May. You'd be look you'd be more hearing about maybe the
accomplishments and the goals of the of each department and maybe you know there could be some service level data that would be available at that point but you wouldn't be looking at um proposed budgets for you know which I think is the point. So we we definitely have to do some rethinking on our side. Um, I
like that. I hear you're not saying to have them come twice necessarily because I think that would be challenging to not just this committee to because those are, you know, it's pretty intense that month when you're meeting for so many hours to review every department. Um, to do that twice and twice regularly would
be challenging. Um but now we would just have to rethink our process and I think the council would have to be really clear what information it was looking for. Um and how how the process that usually happens in May you would just
not happen or I guess you know would be would look a lot different. So we'd have to think about it. >> Anna. >> Yeah. I guess to follow up when I recall back to and again it was a couple years ago at this point hearing from staff in
May we we had the budget book like we could look at those individual or those those budgets but the presentation part was more of what you were saying they would give us in November. was kind of an overview of how the department functioned and all of that because again the the purpose of those the there's the
purpose of those which is to fil familiarize us with the budget but then the reality of it is also what we can do as a result of that action and the only thing we can do is cut. So it feels I guess I'm curious kind of what the staff understand the purpose of those meetings
to be and what their ideal outcome is. if it's not, I need to prove that they shouldn't cut anything from my budget because we can't we don't because they typically have had balanced budgets. So, I I I'm struggling with that part of it to figure out what what the purpose is if we're not
>> Yeah. >> I think I think for some departments, I have heard this. I think for some departments, it is the one opportunity a year that departments have to really come and speak directly to because most a lot of times those finance committee meetings are attended by all counselors. Um and it's the chance they come to have
to really speak about their budget and different their goals and priorities. Some of that could happen in November um you know as part of that uh rei revised process but I think a lot of it's about being able to speak directly to council explain their budget explain what they do um you know because a lot of times
especially smaller departments don't get as much attention necessarily and you know makes sense um but that is the one opportunity where all departments get to come and speak directly to council. I'm seeing um Sam then Jill in terms of the order the hands went up and Sam good
you unmuted. >> Uh thank you Kathy. Um, Sean, I'm wondering uh in thinking about Anna's comment, um, is there benefit or uh
more no more knowledgeable input based on a longer stretch of time, November, uh, for the fiscal year. In other words, is a January time period. This is the story.
>> Is there more info uh that departments might have another what might change in that time period if you delay it a bit? >> Yeah, necessarily may but spot in there where there's greater
predictability or awareness of what might change over those months. >> So if you go too late, then I think it's too late for budget guidelines, right? because we really budget guidelines. The school department really starts working on their budget um you know earlier than December but really December or
November. So I think the more you push it back the less helpful it is for developing budget guidelines. I think the other thing that popped in my head and and this again would be for the finance committee. One of the key pieces that the finance committee provides to council is with um a report to council
on the budget. And I would say most of the content for that report and Kathy and Lyn, you've you've written some of these in the past come from those those hearings in May. Um so if you weren't to have those hearings in May, what would
that report look like? Um it you it could be you could still do it. It would just probably look different because it wouldn't be as much at the department level. It might be higher level um you know conversations with Paul and myself and superintendent and uh library uh
director >> Jill and then Lynn. >> Yeah. I'm just wondering about the schools piece of this Anna. So, you were saying that this you're you're primarily talking about the municipal budget and hearing from municipal department heads.
How then how does the school piece and forgive me if this is an obvious question, but how does the school piece then fit in with this process? >> Is that to me or to Sean? I I >> to you well either just wondering if you
shift this timeline for hearing from municipal department heads would you also sh need to shift the schools piece as well. Well, just but the schools, Jill, you should remember the schools are having this discussion in open public meetings because of the school
committee. It's so to the extent we want to hear what's going on within those, we hear we don't hear anything about DPW, about fire and police until we hit May. We literally nothing. Um, we have only, as Sean said, we have the report we
wrote based on what we got in the budget book. So um we are whether the information is useful but the and we are all as counselors entitled to send questions in to those meetings you know
in terms of asking questions for the school committee to be getting out on the budget. So there's much more knowledge about those budgets pre the budget book than there is about the municipal budgets. That's all I all I
want to say whether where it's helpful or not but we have very little knowledge until May from talk from hearing from people. >> Kathy, can I add to that real quick? >> Yeah. And and I think you probably would still want the schools and the library to come
>> in May or earlier vote their budget to to speak to it where you know if you think about the way our budget's organized um you know Paul and myself you know we work directly with departments to develop the the town portion which includes all the fire police all them um but the school budget
is built completely by the school staff and is approved by the school committee and the library budgets built by the library uh director and approved by the library trustees and so I I think you'd still want those once those budgets are voted those um for each of those groups, you'd still want them to come and
explain what's in their budget and what caused increases, decreases, so on. >> Um Paul and I would speak to it as well. No, I wasn't saying not do it in May, but the question of of the earlier >> um you know because similarly within the
school budget we within the we have some really big town departments and some smaller town departments. Similarly, the school has big areas and small areas. We don't get in to the sub
areas and the overall school budget is the whole school budget rather than every department has a certain target but in the town departments have targets to make the whole thing work. So just it's a it's and that's where we get to
see it when in May you know on the sh their share of the budget. So Lynn um and then Anna I'm sorry to jump in as chair Lynn >> that's fine. Um, so one of the things that I have found very
interesting about Anna's request and that is I'm going to reflect back when the council first started over seven years ago now. We actually had a meeting for all counselors with every department so that we got an overview of what the
department particularly the big departments. Uh but you know it took us a couple extra nights and uh those meetings were very informative and laid a groundwork for the counselors that came in seven years
ago um to have a better understanding of the full breadth of town council of the town's operation. I think what we've we've tried to mimic that a little bit, but we've never done anything at that
level in the past. So, one of the things I'm hearing is just in general when we do the budget, it's it's the one time that we kind of look at what a department does and we hear a little bit
about their needs and we get to ask questions and have a direct meeting with a department head. The question that this raises for me is give me an example or two or three I mean and I'm sure
there are one of what would change in the guidelines if we had those meetings earlier. Okay. And that because I think that's where for example and I'll I'll just say this
year one of the things that came out during the fire on Olympia Place was perhaps we are underst staffed on fire. Okay. And that led to a um guideline in
the budget guidelines about placing some priority on that over a multi-year period to fill it in. And that some of that came because of what we were hearing from the public, some came from what we were hearing from the union. And some of it clearly came from the town
manager communicating uh what we learned out of that fire. So it's and those are the kinds of things that have led to guidelines and specific guidelines and is that the kind of thing you're looking
for and at what point? So that's one question. At what point are we frankly stepping over the line of management of the town versus governance of the town and I I want to make sure
that we think of those two issues. I I'm fully for understanding more about our departments and for doing budget guidelines that are as helpful as possible. So I I I think we have a missing piece here that the first council was privy to and we've just not
done as good a job for previous for subsequent councils. >> Anna, >> so I think I mean personally I love the idea of a meet and greet. That sounds great. And as I looked back through some of the old
finance committee packets, as I was thinking about this, I was looking at the questions that the finance committee asks these departments. And I've got a couple examples that are uh you know there there are certainly some aspects that are targeted towards budgetary
amounts but most of them I would argue from and again I didn't do an exhaustive search so forgive me if I'm a little off but I would argue that most of the questions asked are bigger picture strategic issues or concerns that would be just as effective when asked it in
fact more effective when asked in November because they bring up issues that could be addressed in budget guidelines. So for example, they talked about uh in in the policing uh in the meeting with with APD, the question was,
you know, your calls have dropped and the there's a drop in officers responding. A large share appears to be mainly community policing. Please explain the change. That's not a budget dollar question. That is not that is not relating to what was put in the budget
book about their direct line items. that relates to what was put in the budget book about their staffing. Another example was with DPW long range objective of implementing the next phase of DPW headquarters. It uh as recommended by the feasibility study. Does this mean the department's
unwilling to consider alternatives to the recommendation? Again, those are bigger picture questions. It's beyond just a meet and greet. In my opinion, we would still need that information from departments about uh and and I think that this committee would need to think very carefully and strategically about
what questions we're asking the departments to come prepped for uh and or or what information we're asking them to provide to us to then come up with questions about. But I think that if we can really focus up and if we have specific budget questions in May, those
don't require weekly May meetings. Those could require sending our questions via email and if we need them to come in, we can ask for that. But I I think Lynn, it goes beyond just that meet and greet and an opportunity to really talk with them about the strategic priorities. And I see what you're saying about in terms of
the overreaching question. I think we would need to be really um very aware of where those boundaries lie and we are only should only be asking questions to inform our own budget guidelines. That should be the focus. It shouldn't just be a an opportunity to
critique oh the way a department runs. It's about what are the questions that we need to ask that allow us to build budget guidelines that support the greatest the the biggest needs of our staff in the town. >> So I see it a bit more focused if that makes sense. Mhm.
>> So, so I have a suggestion. Um, since I think maybe we've come to an end, a circle on this, having heard this Sean and Paul, since Paul seems to be at least his pictures with us, maybe you
could come back and propose what might work from your perspective and the way you work with it. And I'm wondering whether November is too late and whether it might be October and and what you know the putting the boundaries around it. Um because one of the actually it
came up at the Ammerst College quick breakfast in a one minute conversation I had with Paul on we tend to do things at a small town level where regional might be more efficient. And I've never
understood with dispatching, with ambulance, with a a bunch of things. Why every town has a ladder truck? Why, you know, you just trying to think of the efficiency level that's long-term budget on on it, not each
year, but you know, I've never been sure of are we losing the most skilled people and is it because our salary scale is wrong? And we did do a salaries we were supposed to do a salary comparator. So it might be if you could frame what
might not be disruptive in terms of the general process but might be useful and when the timing of it maybe you could come back to us with what might work. Um having heard the kinds of things that people potent and these would be the big
departments. Um or you could say it just doesn't work, you know, but you could come back and with a uh what might be possible. >> Can I clarify? Um Anna, is the intent that it would only be for the big departments or are you envisioning all
departments? >> I don't I'm kind of stuck on that question honestly. I think that it would be most beneficial for the big departments but um I mean I think we do we hear from we have heard from small departments in the past like we Stephanie has come for and she's
department of one right like I don't so I think all because our budget guidelines do often impact >> Stephanie and and uh and and climate action is the easiest one to to pull because those often are brought into our budget guidelines. So I think it could
any uh any of this is at Paul's discretion, right? Uh in terms of we we cannot command people to come to us, but I think if he thinks it would be beneficial and if it is often referenced in our budget guidelines, that could make sense. But >> yeah, and so I'll I'll talk with Paul um
and we can bring something back at the next meeting. I think the thing I I think about is how would budget guidelines look different under this model from where they are currently and it could you know there pros and cons. My worry is always that the budget
guidelines become so specific that they're no longer guidelines. And I don't know how we would and I'm not saying that's definitely going to happen, but that that would be one worry I would have would be, you know, if you meet with every department and you try to have a guideline for every department, then at
some point it's so specific that it's really hard to craft a budget. So that would be you know we don't have to answer that now but I think that that's part of the thought we have to give to it is how would we keep it at the guideline level but I understand your point of wanting to hear from departments earlier when crafting them
so you you reflect all departments not just kind of the higher level >> well and I think there's also not for nothing the council then creates the town manager goals right after the guidelines and so there are a lot of things that you're absolutely right are too small to be in go in guidelines but
it could be more appropriate for goals and So Kathy gave kind of a really great example of exploring regionalization of services. That's something that I could argue goes in either or both of those places depending on what makes sense. So I I think that there's there's another
place if it's too kind of nitpicky for the for the guidelines, but it's something that the council ultimately needs to discuss and vote on as a specific item, it could get bumped to the goals. Okay. >> Yeah. I I I'll talk about OPAL and we'll
um have something for the next meeting. Okay. So, thank you. And uh the next the next meeting, well, depending on whether the Community Preservation Act gets to the council and also gets on our schedule, the next meeting may be fairly packed. But anyway, I will talk with
Sean about what is likely to hit us. So, that gets us to the um midFebruary update. what what what you're thinking about, Sean. And I for those I think everyone knows, but when the governor it came I thought about it last night when
the governor puts out her budget, we get preliminary um cherry sheet numbers for Amoris. So I went and looked at the numbers um and uh it's basically nothing more for the schools.
The town has some ups and downs in it. Um, and I was just going through lines. Sean, you've probably done it more than I have, but uh, it it it wasn't generous, the first budget pass of the governor for
municipal. Um, so in any case, that I know that was one of the things you were waiting for. And what Yeah, you you had already been conservative on cup of the line. So, >> yeah. So, we um I don't know the exact date of when the you know what meeting we'll have it, but we will be updating
our budget projections. Um we have the Hampshire County retirement number that wasn't factored into the initial projections. Um and that came in favorably. We have the state um as you mentioned the cherry sheets. Um one thing that came in pretty favorably that
it's kind of you can't always tell just by looking at the surface of it, but it our PVTA assessment dropped quite a bit. left alone and we looked into that and sounds like it's you know we were a little skeptical of it because you don't typically we haven't typically seen a drop in our assessment but apparently
other member communities of PBTA are increasing at a greater rate than we are and so our portion has shrunk um hopefully it's not a short-term blip but but that's a that was a unexpected positive um development that we want to
will reflect in our numbers so um and then health insurance figures are coming in um the came in better than that won't necessarily affect our projections. That's really within each department's operating budget, but hopefully some of the numbers you've heard, you know, both
our numbers on the town in terms of how it would impact our budget and you've heard numbers from the schools and the library um uh will be better. You know, the the the the impact of health insurance won't be nearly as great as um it could have been under our original assumption. So, um, so yes, we will
update the those numbers. We'll also up look at our local receipts. Again, I know that was a priority for the this committee. We'll look at our local receipts with six months of data and see how we, you know, how we feel about the numbers that we have budgeted uh for FY27. So, all that'll be rolled into our
next um round, which we're, you know, we're working on now, almost done with it now. So, it's really just timing. >> Okay. Um, I have a question of two others, but Lynn, go on. And I have two other line items, but Lynn, I'll call in you first. >> Um I Yes, Paul shared with us what I
think is amazing news about our healthc care last night. Uh and it it does seem to me that um that's it's good news. I'd be curious to know how much we think in general
that change uh brings to the town and also to the schools. >> Yeah. So, um, for us, our budget, you know, it you one every 1% lower premium increase is
somewhere around $30,000. So, you know, it's a pretty significant and for the schools, it's probably even greater because their health insurance numbers are higher. Um, or they have a bigger budget between the region and the elementary schools. So, um, so I haven't done the exact math of it, but it'll
it'll be a positive impact for sure. a very positive impact. >> Yeah. But it it what we're what you're saying is that initially it won't lead to a budget increase on the guidelines.
>> Yeah. It doesn't impact um it doesn't impact directly the numbers you see on the the high level budget projections because health insurance is in a separate line there. It's within you know it's broken up within the regional assessment and it's within the elementary school budget within the library budget. So what it what it
allows is um and again this isn't finalized but the initial 3 12% that was projected for an increase to each of those operating budgets that 3 and 12% now less of that has to go to cover health insurance increases that are within those budgets um so that you know
for the schools and uh where we've seen what the the gaps are um those gaps will improve. >> Okay. Um, one of the things that I know Kathy has pushed for on a number of occasions and I just want to add to the
push bluntly and that is this whole issue of where the health insurance are and the other benefits rates are for which group and making sure that we can at least have an estimate. And I know that's difficult
because different groups are bigger users of health care and so forth and so on. But if we were writing a grant proposal, we would put in the number of people and then we would put in a line for health care or a line for other benefits. And what would that number be
in terms of an average per person? And I I just know that when I worked with the university and therefore the commonwealth, we would get a number that we would have to get then use for the next year or so. And same thing would be
true for travel. So, and it may not be an exact number because some people don't take with certain plans or whatever, but it was close enough and done it on an average basis that it worked. And so I' I'd like to figure out
how we can assess more accurately what the insurance cost is by group. >> When you say um can I ask a clarifying question? >> Sure. >> When you say by group, do you mean town, school, library or do you mean
>> within department >> within departments? And also, for instance, in the town budget, there's a piece of the schools that people don't think it belongs to the schools, but the fact is we're paying it for the schools. Okay. And >> that's in the pension side. Yep.
>> Yeah. On the pension side. And it So, it it's trying to >> Yeah. But it's also not coming out of the town budget either, you know. So, I think with with health insurance, it's pretty consistent. Every operating budget pays for their own health insurance. Um, and it's based on the employees of those systems, right? Um
with retirement all all of it's pulled out um except for uh enterprise funds which pay their enterp their retirement. Other than them the full retirement assessment doesn't live in any of the operating budgets. Um the region is different. Again the
region is not is a completely separate legal entity but um the library the elementary schools and the town the retirement assessment is pulled out in a separate line. We can definitely give you estimates. I mean the hard part is we have departments of one and we don't typically
>> say whether they you know we wouldn't give you actuals. Um >> we could come up with with an average. I think it'd be purely forformational purposes you know because we don't we have a line for health insurance and our employee benefits and it would be really
um logistically challenging to budget that by department level. Um but we could forformational purposes and we kind of do this. We have some internal sheets where we do this a little bit um kind of allocate a percentage of that health insurance to different departments. Um so we could share that
information out um at different times throughout the year >> and I thank you and I even and I totally agree with you don't you cannot do anything that exposes a personnel issue uh by stating for instance this department of one has this amount of
health insurance or whatever the case may be because that's because we know that who works there and then therefore what's their health coverage and that's not our business. But you could clump them together. All departments that are five and under people or something get
clumped as a unit or something that helps us look a little bit more about the individual costs of health care across departments and then across the total. So >> and and Sean, I I looked back
uh for some reason I have pre-consil finance committee report and there was a very last page that just did the markup. So what should Lyn L say is is are we at a point to 50% markup you know whatever you see in the personnel line and the
only place for those of you who haven't looked at our but the only place you can see something like that is in our enterprise funds you can see that this much is personnel and this much is benefits but it's that rough what Lynn says a rough average that one or the
other might be the pension's a bit easier because it's a prrated but but even that you don't want it injured real. So, it's just that factor. So, when we add a staff person, we're not just adding their salary. We're adding if it's an FTE, we're adding X% more. I
think that's all we're looking for in >> Sure. Yeah, we can definitely provide that. >> So, I have two questions on your updates. One, one is in the guidelines, we gave you a range on capital, which
was 10% to 10.5. Um, so JCPC is meeting next week, so we'll find out what you're using. So just on a um when you put this together, it matters because that's what then is remains for the operating
budget. So I don't know what you're planning on doing on and there's clearly something in between 10 and 10.5. So I'm just saying we left it as a range. And then the other question is you mentioned local receipts but our sixmonth interest
earnings are running uh really high and although you increase the estimate for interest earnings you know in the projections. So that was the other line item that the six month told us in addition to local receipts. So,
it's just a question on one line item and then what are you what in the budget are you thinking in the update and even if you just said 10% would be this and 105 would be the you know I mean however you're doing those were my two questions.
>> Yeah. Um so we'll probably we probably won't look at the preliminary FY27 capital plan until the following meeting. So, I think next week we will be reviewing last year's plan to bring the committee up to speed with what the comm uh what was approved last year and
the process um and then agreeing to a schedule uh for meeting and then it would likely be the following meeting that we would bring the preliminary capital plan. Um Paul hasn't reviewed and approved anything at this point even at the preliminary stage so I don't want to share any anything at this point. Um
on the interest investment income, I was on a meeting um just before this one with some other finance directors in in Western Mass. I think many communities are dealing with the same thing we're dealing with, which is high investment income, pressure to raise those budgets
and a reluctance to raise those budgets because of um the nature of where those revenues are coming from. So, you know, I think that's an area where I'm going to be really I ultimately, you know, the council and the town manager will make those decisions, but I'm really
reluctant to increase um anywhere near what we're seeing for actuals with investment income. I looked at the numbers uh earlier today and I can uh share what I you know what I was looking at which is where is it?
Here it is. Um, so for in interest interest in investment income in particular from FY19 to FY23, we average $300,000 a year. From FY FY24
and FY25, we average 2.2 million. So there's been clearly a a very shortterm increase to investment income. uh that coincides with some of our construction projects. And the problem is if we, you know, if
we build an operating budget that relies on those $2 million figures that we've seen the last couple years and then it goes back down to the 300, that's going to wipe out, you know, it's going to really create a cliff for us in the future. So I think we've bumped up the investment income
a little bit um reflecting that interest rates are higher but there you know if if the Federal Reserve pushes interest rates down in the future that will impact those revenues for us. So, I think that's one area where we're really really cautious um because it it does
stand out and I get the that it stands out, but it's it's sort of the short-term phenomenon, which is for us a little bit. And another community actually mentioned this um another community also has a building project going on, so their numbers are a little bit inflated as well for investment income. So, that's one area. And then
the other one that, you know, I know has been higher than typical in the past is building permits. Building permit revenue. That's one that um we've looked at and I I looked at those numbers over the last 6 years. So from FY19 to FY25,
we've had three down years and three up years. Our three down years, we saw building permit revenues fall by 39%, 17% and 34%. In our three up years, we've seen permit revenues increase by
73% 6% and 87%. So, all that is to say is that that's why we're so cautious in budgeting building permit revenues because they are very um volatile that, you know, there's been sharp decreases and sharp increases. And that's not saying we're
not going to look at the average and increase it a little bit when we build our projections, but I think when when folks look at the surplus, like it's hard to explain that piece that it's such a volatile number that's dependent on what is being built that particular year. Um, new growth is another one where we had several years of good new
growth and then this year, you know, it didn't hit its target by, you know, 20% or 30%. So, um, so yes, I hear you about the investment income and I think that one in particular is the one I'm most concerned about because it is the largest piece that's been contributing
to our surplus and it's the piece that seems like the most sort of um the biggest anomaly that could go away in the next year or two. And and I just I'm going to call on you, but just to follow up on that, I think what you just gave us an information would be good to give
it to us and again when when we see that because that is uh we we heard some of that of course from Melissa who was doing that but that notion of why we're so high um yeah >> and not to expect it to continue. So,
you know, one of the issues I know is we borrowed early for the school >> and there were delays >> and then we had a delay on the bidding process that was not under our control. So, um it a big pot of money was earning interest while waiting to start spending
it. So we've spent it all now but but we gained a while and then as long as we keep our free class and then we we had beyond our control equipment purchases which were major so we sequestered it and they were earning interest as well
you know. So Sam, >> uh, thank you, uh, Kathy. Thank you, Sean. Just maybe I'm just, uh, inquiring to, uh, state the obvious or I just want to confirm. Am I correct that you're indicating, Sean, that the reason the
interest income was so high is that essentially we had money parked for uh big projects and we gained interest on those and that money is going to get spent and therefore we can't assume we're going to get those same returns in the future. That's part of it. Yeah. So
part of it is interest rates used to be, you know, less than 1% and now they're 4% um for a a certificate of deposit. So part of it is interest rates have actually shifted up in the last several years and then a big piece of it as well
is what you described which is we have additional funds on hand for the library project or for the you know more for the school project in this case. Um and for a while we had ARPA money where you know we had additional ARPA funds on hand. So, we we've seen investment income
boost up because of these funds that we've had um that once we do spend it once and we're right now with the elementary school, we're getting four or $5 million invoices every month now cuz they're, you know, they're really in the uh heading towards the finish line. Um
so, yeah, we won't anticipate having that money on hand uh to generate quite such a large uh investment return in the future. >> Uh thank you. Uh, your uh, posture seems wise. >> Sam, you have your hand up, so go ahead.
>> I think he just that was the end of his comment. You're you're on. >> So, um, Sean, uh, I would assume it's only with the library that we may have received state funds we would then hold
and earn interest on, not from MBLC, MS um, MSBA. >> Yeah. So, MSBA is reimbursement. Um, so we don't get those funds in advance. MBLC, they give us the funds in advance, but the interest has to stay with the MBLC.
>> So, that doesn't actually go into our general fund. Um, >> so when you give us those figures, you're already subtracting out. >> Yeah. That that's free cash. That's fun. All of our revolving funds, the ambulance fund, well, not even the ambulance fund, the interest stays in there. Um, any fund that required by
law, the interest stays with that fund. we have an allocation to put the interest in those funds. So, it's really our funds that are unrestricted that generates um that generates that revenue, >> right? >> And um thank you. I think that was
>> that's fine. Thanks. >> Any other questions on this was all revolving around the February we next meet on um well my that's the next thing on the thing. Are people comfortable with shifting our next meeting from the
17th to the 24th? So that so by that time, Sean, do you anticipate we'd be getting this update? >> Yeah. So ultimately it'll come down to what Paul wants to do, but um I know the plan is to have the financial orders for
that date. Um possibly an update on the the middle school roof and what's going to happen with the middle school roof. Um and then if you know assuming Paul um approves it possibly um a change here too. So I
think that'll require more conversation between Paul and and the council. >> Anno >> I'm okay with I'm trying to pull up my calendar now. Um, I am okay with it, but I would just ask that given the the
second that we change a FINCOM meeting to either the week before or the week after it's supposed to be, we're then doubling up for those of us who are on go. So, I'll just ask that as much as we can minimize that. We do, but I understand why this would be necessary. >> No, I think that's right. you know on a
in the past when I said the past meaning the year before last finance always met the day after the council um so you never knew it wasn't like first and third or whatever we met as often during the month as the council did if not more
often so I hadn't even looked at council schedule when we said first and third so it was even more confusing before because you couldn't count on when we were meeting and we were doing that so that if a financial order came to us, we
had time as a committee to get it back rather than with with the whole committee being able to read it as a finance committee before the report went because otherwise meeting on Tuesday and getting a report in two days before the agenda meant we had to turn reports
around really fast. So that had always been what we had done. And then I realized for the first time in February, what we did is we put us out of cycle. So we were going to be meeting so much later after these financial orders. So I think you're right. We'll have to be
careful about it. But but I think this time it warrants it because the council's not meeting every other week because of the school vacation. You know, I mean it's one of those months that the council isn't every other Monday. So if if that's the case, you know,
Athena, I think has updated the agenda to, you know, our meeting schedule. Otherwise, what we agreed on is at some point we'd figure out in May, if we're meeting a second time, what day of the week and what time of the week, we don't have to decide that
right now. you know, if we're meeting twice a week. Uh, and Athena is putting this is in the packet for so the February except it should be 24th. I just put the >> That's the coun. That's okay. That was I
put the wrong Mandy's eyes caught it. We're not meeting the same day as the council. >> So, that's the only thing that's changed. And then I guess Athena did some other changes through here on first and third. So Athena, maybe you can. >> Yeah, these were just the wrong dates
were in here for th first and third weeks. And then I moved the January meeting a little bit later so that once the uh the council reconvenes in the new year, there's time for the president to um assign committee members um because if you were meeting that
first Tuesday in January there, you might not have members yet. So this is this is after she makes that one change. This is the revised. It should be in our packet and then you can just download it for everyone to put it into their calendar. So the the
basically the only thing that changed is that February date until you get to September where I guess the the days were wrong there, right? >> So that's meeting schedule. Any questions on that? So,
um, you all got the report, uh, because I sent it to you that we received from the regional school regarding the middle school roof, the middle school auditorium roof. And we're going to be waiting to hear for for the for your
purpose, Tom, to hear whether if we're not on the timeline that was written in that memo before we even think about it. Um, could it be added as an add for either a full replacement or repair? I was asked a question of can they just fix it for a while rather than the full
1.6, six, but we're not going to be seeing anything like that until at a minimum that when the we get the full cash flow with a road thing where we're looking at it in the context of everything else. So that would we won't
be seeing anything soon um you know like next week >> Sean? Yeah, I spoke with um Shannon um the school business manager and so my understanding is they are adding it as a ad alternate for at least the
replacement. I don't I don't and they've got to get this out pretty soon. I don't know that they've put a repair option, but um that they're putting the replacement as an alternate and based on the timeline that was sent over in the memo, we essentially need to know, they
need to know about funding before they award the contract, which um was like the middle of March. Um I think March 18th was when they open bids. So, we just they really need to know whether the funding's in place before they award any contracts.
And so we'll get that information in writing I assume when the council meets Anna. >> Um this is tangental to that. I think something that has struck stuck out to me in this process has been the way that
MSBA has ruled this out initially because it's one year away from being 25 years old and not taking into account the condition of the roof. And so I'm wondering if at some point it would make sense for the town council and the school committee to jointly author a letter to MSBA just explaining the
impact of that rule on our community. Um, and I I don't know if that's something that I'm happy to kind of take a stab at that or whatever makes sense, but I do think that it's important that the MSBA group know um that that limitation has has really
impacted us. And I think that Paul, you had said that the rule changed recently too, like it continues to change. It's hard to kind of stay on top of it. Sean, I don't know if you got any more. >> Holio would probably co-sign that letter with you because when I was there, Olio, you know, they have more schools. And so
we would have two or three MSBA projects going on at any time. Um, m, you know, covering multiple schools. And there was a project where, you know, one courtyard of windows was done at a later time than the rest of the windows. And so we we were able to replace all the other
windows, but we couldn't replace just that courtyard. We had to go back and request that courtyard later. Um, and they had a similar situation with this uh the roof a roof there where part of the roof was replaced at a different time. So I think Holio would cosign any letter you write uh to the MSBA. So, I'm
happy Kathy if you'd like uh I'm happy to kind of take a first stab at that and then I don't know if it should come from Fincom to the council for Mandy to kind of be as the as the um deputized head of the council and then we can take it to the school committee but I'm reflecting on our meeting last night where
coalition building is important and uh you know I think that this is one to that's worth passing on. Um, but I just wanted to clarify that the message should be, you know, MSBA should be looking at efficiency of of scaling, right? And and kind of how to do that
best and then also look at the quality of the structure, not just a a randomly assigned age duration. U does that those two main points? >> That makes a lot of sense. >> Okay. All right. I'm happy to draft something up hopefully for our next meeting. Kathy, if you want to discuss
this. So before we adjourn, I just want to say a quick word about minutes. Um um we didn't have we don't have any minutes, Athena, I don't think to review on the at least I didn't see them in the packet.
>> Um >> no, I don't have any. Um so what we have done for the past couple years to the extent we have minutes um is uh everyone we get to see the minutes and then we've
assigned someone to review the minutes and and make any corrections and basically not taken finance committee time to go over the minutes and then given everyone the ability if they read the minutes to want to change them. And
uh what what we did in 2025 is I reviewed all the minutes, but we don't we still don't have any minutes from June through December. So I had a fairly easy job because I only had a half year. Bob Hegner did the minutes for 2024 and
Andy did the minutes for 2023, although I split them. So I just when we have minutes, we were trying to make a less time consuming. It's similar the way the council does it. Although council always is voting the minutes also having
assumed they read it that someone else has reviewed them rather than what you see in school committee and a couple other committees is they take time for everyone to comment on the minutes. So if people are comfortable with that, you know, we could propose a process next
time and it could be the vice chair and the chair split them and we do them every other time that we take it on that and with Zoom you get to it's an easy review and if we make the minutes shorter and just pick up the major part it doesn't put a lot of burden on
people. So that was um rather than having the minutes on the agenda and we instituted this early on then we stopped it and then we had a backlog of about 10 or 12 minutes that nobody had reviewed because we had no time to review them.
So they just sat there. So I just I'll I'll bring it back up but it's not something we have to decide on right now because we don't have any minutes to review. So, u yeah, Lynn, I >> I want to urge a couple things um in the
efficiency of town council business and the issue of minutes and committee reports. And that is and I'll bring this up to go do which is where it really belongs. But since we're talking about minutes, let's talk about this. Um it seems redundant to me that we have both
a committee report and minutes. And if in putting together the minutes that were approved last night for the last four towns meeting in the space of about a half an hour, I mimicked the minutes that we had approved the week, you know,
earlier on, I think it was our first January meeting, which were, you know, less complicated, um, but included votes. What it did not include was the favor flavor of the discussion, if you will.
And so one of my questions is can we explore a way in which minutes if done on time can in fact become the report of the committee because basically what we have is two sets of records of the meeting.
That's number one. Um it's an efficiency issue. The second one is um I know that when we have um our recordings, we can get a um we can look at the recording and we usually have those within less than 24 hours and we can look at the
recording and that can help us write reports. I don't know Kathy whether you've used that um in your own work or not, but is it legal for us to use AI notetaker? And I I'd like to know if that's a legal
issue or not. >> Well, can you just as a quick response, we do not do a report, a written report for every time we meet at finance. We've only only when we particularly when we're doing this, a review of how funds
are used and things like this. Um, so we have not done that. So that shifts it that shifts it who's having to to write it. Um but that so I would if go can look at um in to the extent we are doing
a report in the time the week we're doing can we forgo minutes. My understanding is were required by mass law to do minutes. Um and they don't have to be as detailed as we've had them. You know they're supposed to keep the substance of the discussion and so
discuss this discuss that is all that's needed. But if you can find out because the backlog on minutes could disappear pretty quickly for finance. We could get up to date if they could be super abbreviated on what was discussed. And
if the report that when we did it like all the budget in May we do one major budget report at the end of those meetings. We're not doing it after each each of the meetings. Um, so it would be
great if G could find out a way to to make the whole process not to get us this big backlog and uh that would be great. >> My question really was not to eliminate minutes but to eliminate the report written reports. I think that on the
other hand Kathy I will just say that from counselor standpoint the finance committee reports have been extremely helpful. uh JCPC report as you've pointed out is also one report um and
you've done that and so forth. So I I just want to make sure that when I I'm trying to find a way for us to be more efficient, get our minutes done and not have it be such an individual burden to
each committee and to uh our clerk. So, >> and and just my quick reaction on reports, for the most part, our reports have more in them than you would ever get from minutes because it's people put edits. We've added some footnotes. We've added
some tables. So, the reports are more than a quick AI. But, but you're right, if AI summarized, it might be easier to do the report. Um but yeah, and that's why one of the things we've done with the review back and forth, um several of
you edited, suggested edits to what I did on capturing the questions we asked on repair on what's the state of the roof and they were really useful and we hadn't necessarily covered every one of those pieces. Um electrical for example.
So, but yes, anything that would save us time would be great. Tom and then Anna. Um just a quick quick uh contribution here on terms of um minutes and reports.
uh the or organization I'm in and and AI um to your question Lynn I I'm in an organization that's in a fairly regulated space which is financial and investment and then the preceding one uh likely and in both cases what we you
know we were compelled to file minutes we generally wanted to have um minutes be uh accurate uh but fairly lean um and what we would do is to start with a a more detailed write up and then uh which
we would keep for records and then strip it down to what needed to be in the public record or the state uh files um so that it was accurate and incomplete but not uh not as what did you use
colorful or flavor flavorful um so I think AI would be a good start in my experience and maybe maybe yours do it's um it's still going to need to be reviewed. Um we have a good 20th century
review process that um I think works well. For instance, on those recent memos, although Kathy, I I uh I always um have great sympathy for the time you must spend collating our feedback. Um AI would give us a boost. is there are
going to be a um there will be incorrect uh mistakes that have to be corrected and that's going to involve people spending time on it. It's not going to take that time away. Uh I don't know if the town or or other municipalities have a policy on use of AI. Uh but this
service that we're on today does offer it. That's all. >> Anna, >> so I'm not going to get into the merits of AI or not. I think that uh what I will say is our our council rules of procedure which outline the policies
around report writing do not specify who needs to write the report. It just says committees shall report to the council as needed. Um and any recommendation for action must be submitted in writing for inclusion in the council packet and then it specifies what those reports should
include. Uh, and so I think that this could be a matter that go takes up in discussion of the rules and how they're written. Um, but just to to clarify that point, I think that this is more that's that's definitely a rules discussion and the rules currently do not state I don't
believe unless I'm missing something um that the the chair must be the one who types out every word of that report. Just that it has to go in as and as needed is also a pretty vague phrase. Yeah, Sam.
>> Uh, thank you. Uh, it it seems to me, uh, well, from other committees and, uh, bodies that I've been on, uh, minute taking can be burdensome for those who have to recreate them after the fact,
let alone committee reports. Uh, uh, anything that would ease that burden uh, seems to be worth looking into. Uh that's my assumption. Not having written any uh town council minutes. I did it
for the CPA committee and uh there was always depending on who was doing it uh challenges. We rotated and sometimes they wouldn't be done for 6 months. uh and you know anything that would make it more efficient seems to be desirable
given the breadth of committees uh that exist in the town uh let alone the work burden that I assume for committee chairs uh and others. >> Okay. So we we'll we'll leave it right
now. We don't have any minutes to review. So it we don't have to spend time on our agenda reviewing them. And I I just want people to know that for whatever reason, it's mainly mainly because of what I did before I ran for council, the reports don't take me very
long to write. I take really good notes and my notes are annotated notes rather than AI notes. And what were people really trying to get at? And the very long report finance has been doing after the May budget is we have all split it
up. So whoever took schools for their section reports wrote the draft. Whoever took fire and police and safety. So it wasn't one person and the chair's role was to pull it into one document with an executive summary that if you didn't
want to read a long document, you could read the short and AI does a terrible job on that. You know if partic you want really high highlights and so from my perspective the reports aren't have not
been burn because we only do them when we need to do them. What's been a question mark is how far can we get away with no minutes whatsoever. So is there some efficient way of just generating minutes? And I leave that to Athena
who's been in charge of our minute takers and go. We've already simplified the council minutes a lot and I think that's all we're looking for. >> Yep. That's that'll be the plan going forward at this point. I I don't um support a plan to
eliminate our human minute takers in favor of use using AI. I I don't think AI produces quality minutes anyway. So, um I'll have an update for the committee about approval of minutes at their next meeting after I meet with my minute takers. >> And just this is I am going to move to a
journ but my my father my husband is trying to do uh written transcripts off of tapes of his father speaking and his father has a slight German accent. So when his father said the word Berlin, it came out
as Boston and there was so he spent hours and hours fixing fixing the interpretation of what it was which was supposed to be. So that was the intelligence didn't quite translate to picking up how people talk. Jill.
>> Yeah. Sorry, just before we adjourn, I just had a question on strategy that came into my mind last night when I hearing from the I think it was the CRC that talked about their plans to work on the solar bylaw for the year and like this is going to be our thing that we'll
be all kind of working and collaborating on for the year. Is that something that this committee has done in the past setting some strategic goals or you know things that we want to work on together in the year and just wondering what people think about that? Uh, no. I'll I'll react just quickly. And so what I
haven't had chance to do, um, because basically Sean's been busy, we're driven a lot by financial orders, um, that come to us. So, we could scope out the other than May, you know, the the times on
when we'll be doing what. And certainly we could you know I the finance committee is charged with reviewing financial orders. We can do uh we can request financial if you look at our charge we can and the charter we can
request financial information um uh from departments from schools from anybody. Uh so in terms of thinking more generally honest suggestion of we meet earlier with some departments would be a
a different strategy um than what we've done before but we've been driven a lot so different years we've been really crunched for time for how much is flowing with us. Pam for CRC was able to
report on C we CRC just spent an entire year on a draft of solar. So what she's got right now is trying to get it over the hurdle. Um and what she didn't have is any proposal on zoning will be going
she doesn't have that yet in an agenda at all. She doesn't know what's coming to her. Um so she was able to report on the that one piece. So it's something Sean and I can come on a what likely he he has a better idea of what's flowing to us. So we've got an audit report.
We've got certain things that we have to do as a finance committee and so we can give a roughly when these things might happen Jill and that would I think provide a context that would be helpful. Yeah. No and I I understand it's a different we have a different type of
charge but I mean e even as things as simple as you know we want to be better at transparency and you know sharing >> well the one the one big one that >> guiding kind of goals >> well to get into it now but yeah
>> well one of the big ones that what came out of charter is the budget book itself and um Sean will cr I mean he came up with the original design, but is there a way to make it both less time consuming for staff to
do but also more transparent on what are we missing? You know, there's some tables I keep not finding when I go look for them. So, everyone taking a look from that, we could have a focused discussion on that or just different people's views and if we get it in
sooner rather than later, it might help staff. Um, so it's that kind of thing that uh would require people really thinking of what am I looking at and what don't I have on transparency because most of the budget information that we have is posted. We're pretty
transparent on budget information but ambulance fund was one I didn't know where to find it, you know, on a where is it, how big it is. Some of the others are easier to find. So coming up with that uh Jill on if people have what is
it because it's usually the town itself you know what's what's on our website how to find it or in a report how to find it um is uh is what people are looking for even on quarterly reports
where do I look for this um what's what's the detail underneath the report that what I can't see um so there are different pieces of it so I I think getting more specific would be useful and we could have a focus time on those
issues. >> Yeah. And I don't mean to bring that up as a thing to discuss right now, but if other people have other things that they're thinking about strategically for the year, I think it might be good to just have us all kind of hear from each other and um for me to learn if there
were things that other folks were working on previously. >> If there are any things like that, so I took notes on this. if anyone has those others, just send it to me just to me, but so I can sit down with Sean on when does he think what's going to be flowing to us. Um,
and uh, if people want, I can also send everyone who doesn't already know where to cherish it, they can look at what the governor's marks were for the town of Ammerst generally and the regional school.
So those are those are out right now. what what the governor and when they come out they show you the current year and the FY27 that so you can see whether it's an increase or a decrease and I'll just send everyone the links to
where to find that. Anything else? Um if not I make I I still have no attendees so there won't be public comments. Um, I make I move that we adjourn. >> Second.
>> And I will put it to a quick vote. Lynn, >> uh, I >> Kathy is a yes. Una, >> I. >> Tom, >> I. >> Sam, >> I. >> Councelor Breick. >> Yes.
>> We are. That's Manis. We're adjourned. And thank you very much, Sean, for getting all of this to us. Thanks, Athena.