If um if folks can just do me a favor, I'm going to keep an eye on the audience, but if you could also keep an eye on the audience, that would be >> Okay, >> great. So, um All right. I am calling this meeting of the G committee to order at 6:31 p.m. on Tuesday, October 14th.
I'm going to call in each member just to make sure that they can hear and be heard. Lynn Griezmer, >> present. >> Pat D'Angelus, >> present. >> And I am Anna and I am also present. All right, great. So in terms of our agenda today, we are going to move through uh
in a little bit of a gobbled order um because of our special guests that we have joining us today. So we will start with the um resolution in support of the town of Ammerst Community Heart and Soul Project. Then we will be joined uh by
Andy Samberg. Andy Samberg. Oh my god, I've been listening to so many Lonely Island podcasts recently that I am just just wishful thinking. Um, okay. Not that Andy Steinberg is not just as exciting and funny as Andy Samberg, but Andy Steinberg will be joining us from
TSO to talk about two of the uh policies that we've been working on from them and then we'll move on to everything else. So, I would like to welcome Pamela to our meeting. Pamela Young who is our director of DEI. Pamela, can you hear us? And can we hear you? >> Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me?
>> I can. Thank you very much. So, I will pull up the initial memo that was in your packet. Also in the packet was um added a bit late cuz I had to go through it. I added a um a marked up version for us to review. But Pamela, do you want to start by just giving us a little bit of
information about the Heart and Soul Project and what this resolution, why this resolution? >> All right. Right. I'm going to give you a little bit of a timeline because we are really like four years into the process that's culminating in this resolution. So in 2021, as you know, the
community safety working group issued a report and part of that report was to call for the town to do liberatory visioning. Um when I started my job in 2023, we hired Dr. love to begin um a
liberatory visioning by training facilitators and then in 23 and 24 those facil facilitators have been engaging in community dialogues and community workshops and uh this past year in 2024 25 we
completed the liberatory visioning report from Dr. love. And that included over 15 sessions um among community members at the Bang Center and the high schools at various faith organizations
and the whole purpose of the liberatory visioning was really to answer the question what would an equitable just and inclusive Ammerst look like. So we finished that process and so the next logical step is to take the results of
those report and um figure out how can we continue the work that was called for in the community's safety working group. Um and Philip and I have been researching and trying to figure out what would be next logical steps and we
stumbled across heart and soul um foundation. And the Heart and Soul Foundation is the brainchild and heart of Lyman Orton. He is the founder of the foundation and the proprietor of the Vermont Country Store. So he's he's um
founded this. The basic uh premise is that uh small towns have a heart and soul and if you can include everyone and discussions about what the heart and soul of the community is, you will have more inclusive governments, you will
have better decision making. And so he's funded small towns around the country. I think there are two in Massachusetts um to begin this process. It's a two-year commitment. um they provide a coach and they I think what is
attractive to me is that there's a structure and the structure is over the two-year period where we're provided this professional coach, we're actually establishing what I will call like an a nonprofit or some sort of quasi
organization outside of town government um that will be create a committee called the heart and soul committee and their goal will be to engage engage the community around what is it that we really love about Ammerst? Um how can we
make sure that this vision that started with liberatory visioning comes to fruition? Um so that's sort of a brief overview. Lynn, >> um I may have to save my question
uh for the council meeting uh because it's really not about clear, consistent, and actionable, although it kind of ees into the actionable and that is is it required that you find that you found a
new nonprofit or can you use an existing one? >> No, it it can be an an existing nonprofit. So, what we would hope to to do with the DEI office is we're actually serving sort of as the convenor during this two-year period. And we are hoping
to engage community partners. We've already started sort of having some on the side conversations with folks who would be interested in supporting this. Um, and and our goal is really to deliver it to whatever organization or nonprofit or, you know, group of
individuals who who want to take it on. But we have What I think, as I said before, what I think is really important is that there's a structure, right, involved that allows us to sort of piece by piece uh work the program. Um, one of the requirements of the program is that
we hire a part-time administrator and um and we are looking to uh funding from the Mindy DOM earmarks to fund that position. Um, so it' be part-time, non-benefited and the sole purpose of that position, uh, is to really support
this work. So, uh, the goal is to to hand off a a fullyfledged whatever it is, new nonprofit coalition, um, you know, how however it develops over the two-year time frame.
>> I u that's helpful. Um, how much do you see the grant bringing in? And >> I think you should save those questions. >> I'm going to have to save them. You're right. I I I Pamela, I'm going to send you questions.
Okay. So that you're not caught off guard at the council meeting, but I think it's going to be important that you're there for the 20th. Okay. Thank you. >> So on the 20th of It's the 20th of November, I will >> October October. Okay. All right. I will be here. We're trying to move you
through quick. Um, all right. So, I'm going to pull up my edits on this if that's okay with folks to work from those. Um, because I tried to pull this into a form that or into the format that we typically do. Uh, it came to us as a
memo and so I pulled it over and spent some time reformatting it and um doing some light edits. I really didn't get into the paragraphs though, so I I was kind of just focusing on formatting uh in this in this version. Um because I spent so much time on it and because we didn't have a council sponsor, I added
myself as the council sponsor for this. Um I had a question for the committee which is how to reflect um if we should always we've in the past we have written community sponsor and then listed town departments but I wasn't sure if this
committee wanted to think about a different way to reflect you know committee sponsorship and put the office Pamela if you don't think that's necessary and that this should really just come from the council and not from the office um that's fine as well. Lyn, >> I'm wondering if the town council needs
to be the sponsor based on the fact that it's coming to the council for a vote and it's related to a grant. Fully fully appreciating what you've done, Anna. >> It's not that. It's that any resolution that is passed by the council is an
opinion of the council. Right. >> So, by by virtue of the vote, that is the council signing off. >> Um, if other individuals want to sign on, that's fine. But we've never The vote is the sign off, not the sponsorship.
>> Okay. >> Um >> I mean, I'm glad to be a sponsor. I don't need to be. >> Oh my gosh. Why isn't shipping? Sorry. >> I do think the um the DEI department should be sponsor, you know, listed as a sponsor.
>> I agree, Pat. I just didn't know if it should stay still just say community sponsor if there was a different >> I just I think it's fine. >> My god. >> It's okay. It's >> like one letter off on my entire
keyboard. Um >> here we go. >> All right. So then um sorry give me a moment. screen is too big. >> Okay.
>> Uh, yes, Pat. >> I was just going to say looking down the thing, I believe, and I could be wrong, honestly. So, that after whereas, we have a comma, not a colon or semicolon. I can't tell which it is. So, it's
whereas, the town of Ammerst. >> Yeah, I had pulled up another one to check that and I think I had a semicolon. Let me look at it too. >> I could be wrong, honestly. >> No, I don't think that you're wrong. I think it's just um I think that we've been inconsistent. I've been inconsistent. >> Yeah. I I think we have been
inconsistent. >> Yeah. So, that's not that's not you. Um which which do you like better? >> Yeah. No. Okay. Strong feelings. Um let's see. >> We need here for that. I always look back at the Pride Proclamation just
because it's my favorite one. Um, that one we used a semicolon. >> Wow. Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. >> That's >> so I added the ands. I bolded the where's um let's go through line by line. When we get to the end, I do want
to talk about my edits because I think those are a bit more hefty. So, um, let's get into the first first piece here. Any issues with the first whereas? I'm just gonna just I like an Oxford comma. Okay. Uh second whereas
>> no fine. >> Third whereas Okay. My only issue Okay. I'm going to council I'm going to channel council atte um because it is not a guarantee that they will engage every single member. Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
>> Do we I'm sorry. >> Go ahead. >> No, I did. You want to say will seek to engage or seeks to engage? >> I think that the good >> process already exists. >> Yeah. All right. Um I just had a
question about this one of not that the these are all great things but um what I'm curious how these three things came to be in terms of mirroring the desires of town leadership. So I understand that these are the guiding principles of
community heart and soul but I'm curious about how those mirror the desires of town leadership and where that reflection came from. That was not clear to me. So, um I did not draft this resolution, but I and so I'm speaking for the town manager here, but totally fine.
>> Right. So, I believe that it's a reflection of just the general um belief of the town that uh these principles are important to town council and to town governance, right? To to have full engagement of the community.
>> And I'm squinting because I have >> Oh, I'm sorry. I can zoom in. No, >> that's all right. uh to focus on what matters and and to play the long game. I mean, those are certainly not I would say the language that the town council would um would
use, but I do think it uh is a reflection on the need to like set priorities, right, to focus on what matters. And I I actually like play the long game because I I don't think often enough that that sort of conversation is
had, right? We have to think about how the impacts of our decisions will play out long term and not simply, you know, fix the immediate question. So, um I I Yeah, >> thank you, Lynn.
>> Yeah. Uh do they need to be capitalized? Are these are these activities that the grant has named in them? They they so they are they are the three guiding principles in the in the grant. So I think that's why they're capitalized. Yeah,
>> that's fine. What if what if we say um so if we could say the three guiding principles and then comma involve everyone focus on what matters play the long and play the long game reflect
shared desires of town leadership when considering future initiatives and kind of just flip it so that it's not a direct mirror. Um does that sound okay to folks? Okay, >> I think that's perfect. Yeah. Oh, wait. I messed it up. Sorry. It'll be very interesting to see whether
we can ever get to any agreement on what matters more. And now I actually Well, this this will be in it. You're going to need to probably provide more detail about what those mean. Would you like to do that
>> in the presentation? >> In the presentation I don't again is that clear, consistent and actionable? In many ways it is clear. It's the clarity of it. What do those mean? >> Um so next one whereas after determining
what matters most to residents community heart and soul distills this down into heart and soul statements that provide guidance for future decisions. That's fine. >> Whereas town the town leaders value involvement from a broad c cross-section of residents that will result in a
better blueprint for the town. Um okay so this is where I did some shifting. Uh and the reason why I did some shifting is that by their nature resolutions, proclamations and commemorate and citations are not policy directives. And the way that this
initially read was uh therefore be it resolved that the town will provide support to the community heart and soul project including but not limited to staff support blah blah blah blah blah and while we can reflect support for initiatives in a proclamation we cannot guar
I hope that I kept the the intent of this while changing the language to be actionable basically which is that non-actionable um that we we cannot say we will do something in a resolution. It is non-binding um by definition. So I
shifted it to be now. Therefore, we the Amoris down Ammerst Town Council do hereby resolve to support the provision of resources by the town of Ammerst to the community heart and soul project including but not limited to staff support etc etc. So, this language is
saying we support the idea that we will provide resources, not we will provide resources. Um, I I think I threaded that needle, but I'm open to thoughts if I if if I missed it. >> May I um interject?
>> Yes, please. Please. >> Yeah. So, um, the town manager was provided a sample resolution. Um, I'm not 100% u convinced that the language has to mirror the sample resolution or
draft resolution um, perfectly. And when I read this last section, I found it really odd because you wouldn't normally list the type of support that you would um provide. But
so I I think um a more broad general statement would suffice. We've been asked by the Harton Foundation um to show proof of support from um our town leadership and that's the
purpose of of seeking the resolution. I'm not sure it has to be that detailed. >> Yeah. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Pat. >> No, I was just going to say that makes sense. >> It does. And and I looked at their website too, Pamela, because I had the
same I had a similar question of I didn't think Paul had drafted this from scratch. I I was pretty sure it came from something. Yeah. What what they had written on their their website was it is important for community leaders to be engaged in community heart and soul. Applica applicants are expected to
secure commitment from the local governing body via an official resolution. For community heart and soul to be most effective, it needs bottom up and top down engagement. So I think it's really just like we are committed to to um and and I I hope that this still
does that without exactly those words that we aren't aren't according to our processes. Pat. >> Sorry, I saw you like waiting. Go ahead. I don't think I really have anything valuable to say, but it doesn't seem we
I've never heard seen us list that we were going to provide space and assistance and disseminating information. We do those things, but we've never listed them. And so I don't know whether we need them or not or whether that I want this idea to be
supported however the granter needs it to be but and that may be what it needs but it just it's just unusual. So the simple one I I think I agree with Pamela the simple one is perhaps enough. So it would look like
this. I think we could also just say >> provide support, >> right? I think we could say um support >> you hear all the >> uh couldn't we just say support the community heart and soul project including the provision of necessary
resources? >> Sure. cuz I mean Lynn, it sounds like you think that this will not go through on consent and it will require discussion. My worry sometimes when we get into the nitty-gritty of discussion of resolutions and proclamations at the
council is I will people read this last part as a guarantee that we are going to provide every resource asked for um and which may or may not be possible. So I just want to make sure that we're not overpromising and underdelivering on
something. Um my questions will cause it to be come to will cause the qu the questions I'll be sending Pam will cause it to be taken off of any concern. >> Sure. Do we worry that this statement is clear that we're supporting provision of
resources? It's not that it's not a guarantee. >> I um I'm sorry I'm laughing. It's not funny. It's this is the I know >> I think it actually states we will provide them. So um I that's where I
think the council may have some questions. >> Would it be better to list them than I'm going backwards now but what we are providing? I think that for a lot of people, you know, including
>> such as >> provision of resources such as staff support, uh, meeting space, you know, go back into that list and keep because yeah, I don't need another whole group of people saying you promised this and
you promised that and you Yeah, And I'm hearing Pamela from what you're saying that this would the position the person to be hired would be grant funded >> correct >> because that certainly would be a real difficult thing right now I think
to >> that's true it would be grant funded. So I can um go over a little the over a bit of the his the earmark funding available if you'd like me to. Um >> what if we add in this
>> what we're in including consideration of necessary provision of resources. >> We're just dancing around the issue that there's >> still I think this still says the same thing. I think that we either need to say we do support the project or
>> well are do we I think we do support the pro this if and it and we're going to include certain resources such as staff support I mean we list sta you know we ask
staff support meeting space dissemination of information I think those are things that the town does >> but we can't guarantee key those through a resolution. That's my concern. So, here's my let me try to reframe this. My concern is going to come to the council
and a counselor is going to not understand our intent in saying this last part of the sentence and say you are >> you you are guaranteeing dollar amounts or time, talent, treasure, right through a
proclamation or resolution which you cannot do. So my concern is even though these are not budget items in and of themselves they are they are staff time especially and dissemination of information includes staff time um we
are utilizing time of staff therefore budget dollars for a resolution in a resolution which we cannot do. So that I'm trying to figure out how to say we are supporting this and we will seek to
provide or something like that without saying we will provide this if that makes sense because I think that's going to flag to support the community heart and soul project. >> I think the simple if I can inject I I think the simple statement we um is all
that you need. I don't think you need to list out what the provision of the support will be um >> in the resolution. Yeah. >> No. >> So I think then we can change this to be a I'm going to throw a loop here. I
think that that would make this now a proclamation and we say now therefore we the Ammeristown Council do hereby proclaim our support for the community heart and soul. Does that feel better? Does it?
Hang on. I'm going back. We can leave it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. >> I know. I just know that in all of the conversations, it's always been talked about a resolution. >> Yeah. I just looked at their website and they use the word resolution. So, let's just keep it. >> Yeah. >> Um,
>> did you hear my resolve >> to provide >> say proclaim and resolve? And that would >> that's okay. I think it's fine like that. I think it's good. But I think it's good. Do hereby resolve to support the community heart and soul project. I want to like add a great done. Fine.
Fine. Okay. Done. Um, >> you're going to take out Oh, I see. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. >> Ignore me. >> Um, >> there is an attendee. Andy Steinberg is the audience. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. We are going to get to him in one moment.
>> Yeah. >> Um, all right. So, you'll see you see how it's going to look when it's edited. the crossouts there. >> Yeah. >> Uh are there any other And then I added in this because it will go to the council on the 20th. Hopefully that's when it's passed. Um are there any other
concerns before I hear a motion to find this resolution clear, consistent, and actionable? >> Yeah, it's not clear that Ammerst has a heart and soul, but anyway, >> thank you Pat for that insight. Um any is there a motion to find the resolution in support of town of Ammerst community
heart and soul project? >> So moved. >> Thank you. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Thank you. Uh I'm going to call the vote. Pat >> I >> I am an I. Lynn >> I >> Perfect. This is going to go to the
council for I believe the 20th and um Pamela, we hope to see you there and thank you very very much for your work and support of this project >> and many other things, my friend. >> Many other things. That's true. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Have a lovely rest of your evening. >> Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you.
>> Bye. All right, folks. Let's move right along. We are going to bring in Andy uh Steyberg and I'm going to tell him about my funny mixup and then we're going to talk about the proposed changes to the public ways policy and the transportation advisory commission
charge. Let me pull those up. Okay. Hi Andy. >> Hello. >> How are you doing? I'm doing well. >> Good. >> Long day, but I'm doing well.
>> Um, I will tell you that earlier today I called you Andy Samberg, who is an SNL actor, so I am also having a long day. Um, but I'm I'm equally as excited to see you here. Um, all right. So, let's
start with the charge if that's okay. Um, and I'm going to pull it up. And Andy, if you could just so just to refresh folks memories, we've gone back and forth on this um with with the charge for the transportation and parking commission as well as the changes to the public way
policy. I'm starting with this charge because I think this will go faster. The most of the questions were were arising around the um the changes to the public way. So we'll start with this. Hopefully we breeze through it. And when G reviewed it before, we had a lot of
questions um that seemed more appropriate for TSO. They really weren't uh actionabil clarity, consistency, actionability. So we asked TSO to take a second look at KP Law's comments and um and then get back to us. And so TSO was able to do that and now they are getting
back to us. So Andy, if you could start us off with the charge if um in terms of what uh what TSO discussed and any changes that were made and this is I hope the right document that I pulled up from from TSO sent back to me.
I think that the charge is pretty straightforward because the only thing that came up was uh the recommendation the the only new thing was the recommendation as I recall on
the u just just changing the language on counselors that you had handled >> that with all of your other changes.
>> I do think this one was pretty much set. So, let me pull up the other one. Sorry. >> Yeah, I'm sorry. I think we did on the qualifications for the community members, we wanted to make it more vague. That was the other charge, the other change. >> Yeah, we had wanted to, but I think we
could do that without TSO. It was more of if they happened to we had added in or other relevant areas. >> Yeah, you did. And that was not uh in any way objectionable. And so we just assumed that you had adopted that uh
we're proposing that change and it adopt essentially adopted even though you didn't vote >> and >> that is true. >> So I think that uh where we are is that we're in total agreement with you on the on the charge now because those were the
only two things that I think came up. >> Perfect. So then let's talk about the actual policy. Um so this is the draft that or this is the version that TSO discussed and came back
to us. Um and so Andy, do you want to talk us through talk us through this piece? >> Yeah, I think that there's an important part before I because there's actually only a couple of things that are really
significant in changes. Um you um but the biggest problem that we have and Lynn and I have talked about this some and actually I've thought about it Lynn since we had that last exchange
>> um and that is that u the utility hearings or the what we frequently call poll hearings is in electric and telephone polls that Um the proposal had been that the
hearing would be um given over to the TPC and the TPC would report the results of the hearing and it would come back to the council. Then as we uh continued
that discussion after a considerable period of time wea we uh became concerned that there were some problems with that and uh Athena made several um
points that were important. If the um hearing is before the um TPC and uh there's no witness then before the council but the decision has to be
made before the council. If the council has any questions that they would like to ask, how do they go back and ask the um utility company who's put in the
request to come back to a separate body? Does that make sense? And um the point that Athena was making was that at times these things are uh really uh have a
time deadline or have a desired time deadline because like uh in a recent one um a homeowner was trying to make changes to their to their home and the utility um changes were to allow the that
homeowner to do what they wanted to do and uh that um were creating delays in the process. So we got into a discussion towards the
end of a very long meeting about um should we be even doing that? Um should we have uh the poll hearings act or utility hearings actually take place as
they are now and not make that change not make that and not make that assignment. And uh you know then the question comes up as to what changes we would need to make to the policy to do
that. And uh when uh um Lynn and I talked about it and she weighed in and she's here obviously u the question came up as to whether it would be better to try and get direction
from the council as quickly as possible. And uh if then just let the council make the decision as to whether it wants to continue to do the hearings or whether
um it wants to stay with the plan as now provided. And u um I'll explain them a little bit more, but I thought that was a place to start. Lynn, do you have anything to add?
No, you've described the dilemma. I think what you're what what it's saying to me more and more I think we need to just keep these hearings in the council. >> And I think that the problem that we came up with in talking and when I was
talking with George about it this afternoon is uh to decide uh what we were going to do this evening. Um George was pointing out that a lot of the provisions in the U
policy um that is proposed by KP law u don't make um sense if the TPC is not holding any formal hearings
because uh um if it's not holding hearings then there's section in here that really are not applicable. And that then got to a question as to whether there are any other sections
um any other topics that TPC would ever have to hold hearings about. And um another question, and I was going to ask Athena this, but didn't get an opportunity to talk to her about it, was if uh they're calling something a
hearing, but it's really just a matter of having a public forum to invite the public in to listen about it. Is that really a public hearing that has to follow all of these rules? And should we call it something else besides a hearing
under those circumstances because that might take care of it. I think if you put your hand up. >> Yeah. So I'm going to go to Athena and then I just have a a centering question. So Athena, go ahead. >> I think if you call something a hearing, you should follow the procedures for a
hearing. And in the past when we've had um what you described uh as a listening session or something like that, we've called it a listening session. We've called it something else so that there's not confusion about what process needs to happen and um what
boxes need to be ticked in order to get through that process. >> So I want to keep us on the clarity, consistency, and actionability so track that we're we're supposed to be on. And so I kind of have two questions, Andy.
It sounds like the decision as to whether the council should keep the those hearings or whether they should be in the TPC, are you hoping that that will be a discussion that the council has? And therefore, should we somehow have a
draft go to the council before it's reviewed for clarity, consistency, and actionability so that the council can decide one way or another? or is TSO wanting to make that recommendation one way or another and finish the policy and go have it go to council? That's
question one. Question two is one of the other things, one of the re main reasons go sent this back is that KP Law went above and beyond in their review and included review of a whole lot of other things in here that are not um TPC related. And so I just wanted to make
sure that TSO had had a chance to review all of the KP laws comments um so that as we were going through uh the substantive changes that they discussed were discussed in TSO.
they were and for and I think that um as we went through them we did not have problems with most of the changes that that KP law was suggesting. U and what we realized that was probably
going on here is this was very early on. You know, the original policy was drafted and adopted very early in the council in the first council um first three years of the council
and we hadn't perfected our systems well and it may not have been reviewed by um KP law at the time. So that this may be the so that when they saw it, they were all of a sudden looking at a policy that
they had never been involved with. >> Yeah. >> And that was why a lot of this is in here. So you've got a very perfect one right in the middle of your screen. U the right to revise, resend, or um
deviate is belonging to the town council. Well, we thought uh and I bring this up as an example because it's so easy. The answer is of course um the council I think just always assumed it
had the right to make changes um because it was adopting a policy. You can change a policy, but to have it stated upfront in the policy the way it the way that they suggest
um is an extra piece of clarity that u we no problem with whatsoever think that was really a good idea. Um so there were a lot of things that they suggested that are along those lines. The two problems,
the two areas where we had problems with um the most was the questions having to do with uh public hearing, which is why uh if there's uh not going to be utility
hearings and we set it up so now that Thea's offered her advice on the topic that you don't have anything else that is a form has to be called a hearing and can be called something else. You may
not need those sections because you're not really expecting the TPC to hold something that is a formal required by law formal hearing. And uh the uh so
that was one problem. The other was the whole thing with the board of license commissioners and putting the board of license commissioners in there and putting a lot of procedural um requirements on a board that really
only has one function um in the uh uh public ways and that is when they want to put a food allow a food truck to be on the public way. uh and that's a small piece of what they
do, but uh to to um the extent of the requirements that they're putting on the board of license commissioners, therefore uh didn't seem like it made sense. So Andy, is G safe to presume that every
edit on this in this document has been appro approved, for lack of a better word, by TSO and is being recommended by TSO. Uh the ones where we had comments I think are um in comment boxes that have
Athena's name because she was our notetaker through the process. >> So I'm trying to figure out what G's responsibility is here and what TSO's responsibility is. Um and so if if things are not resolved by TSO, is it
G's responsibility or is it TSO's? Um and so for example um you know the question why is the BLC included here but not in all subsections um is that a thing that TSO wants the
BLC in every other subsection or is that a consistency question um you know I I think that's similarly like the need for monthly reports that's not necessarily a clarity consistency or actionability that's a preference
Um, and and that would be in my mind a TSO question. So, I'm trying to figure out whether would I am I to interpret that all of the questions on the side here are things that TSO believed are Goo's responsibility to answer. And if the answer is yes, we can we'll
tackle them. But I just want to make sure that we're not straying beyond our our mission here, which is clarity, consistency, and actionability and into content. And some of these do feel content based and and but maybe I'm being too sensitive to that. I um
I don't know that um we really as big a problem as um because the board of licensed commissioners um I think we really somebody needs to go
through that and see where it makes sense that the board of licensed commissioners is is mentioned and required to do things. And uh I think that if you ask tell us that we
should do it, well, I'll go back and do it. I left it I have it on the agenda for our meeting on Thursday so that we could come back to this policy. Um then I can we we can do that. But if you
um if your preference was that uh it's not clear why the board of licensed commissioners is being um given these uh
responsibilities when they have such a small role in the public way administration um that we could handle you could handle it. I think it could go to either group.
>> I think so too. And that's why as I I'm trying to when we say somebody should review that's the question I we need to answer the question today of who that person will be. Um, and I think for me, you know, reviewing the GO charge, it's talking about review and make
recommendations to the town council on measures, including bylaws, committee charges, resolutions, etc. Proposed for action for form, content, and organization to asssure they're clear, consistent, and actionable. So my my worry is if that we stray beyond that.
Um and that we have no we lack the context that TSO has in being able to ask TSO asked these questions initially and had discussion on this and so we you know continue to go back and forth and you have to keep
coming to our meetings. Um but we still don't have the full context on this that TSO has. So I I think what what I wish could happen, what I wish would have happened is that TSO would have accepted the changes that they want um and and not you know so that we are looking at a
clean do a cleaner document that's coming to us um and reviewing it for clarity, consistency and actionability. I think at this point there's so many questions in here that KP law asked and I personally feel that TSO should be the body to say we like this we don't like
this and go is this all good from your end um in terms of clear consistent and actionable I want to pause before I go to Lynn and just make sure councelor thank you so much for joining us can we just check to make sure we can hear you and uh you can hear us >> I can hear you
>> thank you um and council we are reviewing the um changes to the public ways policy in case that wasn't clear from what's on your screen, Lynn. So, let me step back and say if something if we were going to do a very
um significant review of our public way policy, it would be referred to TSO and then and therefore whether or not TSO wanted this to happen, what happened
is the attorney did a thorough review and it came back to TSO and it should go back to TSO because again they're the committee that would have formulated the public way policy
and they're the committee I think that um has done this having said that I'm not sure where we did the public way policy maybe go did do it I have no idea but it this is it is getting
because this came back and addressed more than the changes necessary for the creation of the transportation and parking commission. I believe we've been stuck in this
passing back and forth because of that issue. So, we've got two courses of action and I would like the committee members to think about which they would prefer. Um, and I want to make sure that everyone is
clear on what the courses of action are. Option one, we as go through this policy and accept or reject the changes that are proposed by KP Law and by TSO and by ourselves as well as review the content for clarity, consistency, and
actionability. Option two is we send this back to TSO again to review on their at their meeting on Thursday. And what we are asking for from TSO is that when this document is sent back to go changes are accepted, comments are resolved so that
we are just reviewing what's what they would like to send to council. We are reviewing for clarity, consistency, and actionability. Normally, we look at a track changes version because we're only considering a small piece and we just are looking for context. But the reality at this point is that this whole
document has been changed in so many ways that we need TSO to resolve that like we need TSO to resolve the remaining questions and send to us what they would like the council to review so that we are just the final filter and
not a full content review body if that makes sense. So, um, I'm curious to hear from Pat Lynn, counselor et which course of action you feel is more appropriate in this moment. We we go through this
and we decide yes or no, which we've in the past said we didn't want to do, but TSO is saying they my understanding is that TSO is saying they're good with these even though there's still questions which I'm still a little stuck on Andy.
Um, but we we clean it up and send it to the council or we go back to TSO and say, "You need to decide if you're keeping or getting rid of the the lawyer's comments um and how you're answering some of these questions and then get it back to us."
Lynn, councelor Ete, Pat, what are your thoughts? >> I think it should go back to TSO. Lynn, >> I I understand the conundrum, but the fact that they have been discussing transportation and parking and they
basically do take up public way issues like Heatherstone, etc. Um, it seems to me that the policy should go back to them. council atte
I'll refrain from any suggestion given how late I am but >> I understand >> yeah yeah >> I understand I think my my thought is I I don't know that given that this has gone back and forth and I I would love to hear your thoughts in a second but I
think given that this has gone back and forth I feel like I'm uh I don't think I've done it of this committee and so I'd like to just make sure that if we're asking Andy, if we're asking your committee to look at it again, that we're really clear on how we would like
it to come back to us. Uh, and so I want to make sure that the committee is in agreement with what I'm saying, which is that when this comes back to us, when the public ways policy specifically comes back to us, we would like TSO to have resolved, either agreed or rejected
with the comments and questions by the town committee and have answered the questions that they themselves posed, such as should the BLC be only here or should it be everywhere? Um, we would like TSO to have resolved that. And what we have in front of us is a policy that
we are reviewing much more simply for clarity, consistency, and actionability and not uh looking at these additions of content as to whether or not to include them. But for clarity, consistency.
>> Andy, what are your thoughts? >> Are you asking me? >> Yeah, I'm sorry. I my internet may >> I just I mean I I think we can do that. Um, it might make sense and I would I I
might make sense for us to come back to you next time with a clean copy and not all of these u changes in comment boxes because we it gets so confusing to look at it and see
where each change came in because some of them have George Ryan's name by Some of them are KP laws, you know, some of them are mine, some of them are yours. Um,
would you like to see just a clean copy of what we come up with? I would like to see the the clean copy of what you come up with, but you know, I think Lynn was talking about this broader question of when a um when like
who who does the hearings and I think those questions may end up at the council to decide, but I think it needs to be clear in this policy that um TSO is is state stating that it believes it should be this way. Um, and so I I I
don't want those questions to be lingering when it comes to go. Um, so it's it is a little bit about the clean copy, but it's more about some of the questions that have come up and TSO having those discussions, not not go. >> Okay. So,
>> that makes sense. Um because I I I raised that actually with George earlier today as to whether we should just ask on Thursday whether the TSO committee wants to
propose a change in the whole thing with uh having the hearings done by TPC for utilities. And if we got that question uh resolved
and I think that the tendency was u at the last meeting I I wasn't happy with the end result. I think when I tell you why, you probably will agree. But, uh, you know, basically the feeling was,
well, we should just send it to town council and let's leave it the way it is until town council tells us to change it. And, uh, I think it just a clean decision
u, and would make more sense. >> Yeah, I think that the I guess this is my opinion is that the job of the committee is to send the version that the committee believes is correct and that the town council then
could say no we don't agree come back with something different versus kind of sending an option that has the decision yet to be made if I'm understanding you correctly Lynn you're muted I think it's very important that we
separate this there. The one decision, Andy, that we discussed that the council needs to make is whether they're going to keep the um poll hearings themselves or they're going to designate them to the committee. That's one piece of this
revision. But then there's a whole lot else in this revision. And if you want the council to weigh in on that, then it needs to be clear what the options are. And I I can understand your frustration because I'm feeling this frustration now
myself um coming to the council with this written so that the poll hearings would actually be done by the um the way we discussed it. So if the poll hearings were done by the TPC
and the council said you know I can see some real flaws in that. What we discussed was the possibility that between the first and the second reading, those sections of this policy could be changed to be consistent with the poll hearings staying with the
council. But there's more in here like the board of license commissioner stuff and so forth that I it needs to be reviewed at some level in a committee before the council is asked to look at it.
All right. So, it sounds like I'm not going to take an official vote on this, but it sounds like Andy, we are at GO is asking for TSO to take a look at this again and resolve some of these comments um and put in what the committee thinks is best. And G's job is not to look at whether or not we agree with that
decision. We are just to to look at whether or not that decision is clear, consistent, and actionable, and then the council can fight it out. Um, but I do think that a lot of and I think it's evident by this conversation, we've tiptoed a whole lot around actual content and and sometimes stepped I
think a little bit in it in this discussion. So I think that in order for this committee to be able to do the clear the review for clarity, consistency, and actionability, we need TSO to review this and decide how they want this to look when it goes to the council and uh just leave the last
little polishing to us instead of any any sort of substantive um decision. Is that something that TSO can do? You said it was on your agenda for Thursday. Um is that something you can do? I think that the that the committee can do it.
Um, and I'm thinking of one other problem and this is one that we all if we want to get this done before the council term expires, we need to make sure that we have time for two readings and um so
that we can get to a final vote. And I know that uh uh our town manager would like that result too. And uh the easiest uh the best way to assure that we get that done
would be to um have the TSO do it, but to stay consistent with what uh to to the most extent with what uh KP law recommended because we don't want to
send it back to KP law if we don't have to. And uh so the um which gets into if we if we're clear and uh you know the uh
given us advice on the topic that we can um eliminate public hearing altogether from a responsibility of either um group under this policy then uh we and
actually uh remove a bunch of things that they recommended that have to do with hearings. And I think that will make it uh easier to read, easier to deal with, and uh we have a chance of
getting it done. >> All right, let's go for that. Um TSO did have to add a second meeting or a special meeting, excuse an additional meeting. Let me let me phrase this all correctly. We did have to add an
additional meeting um for October 21st. So if your if TSO can review this on um Thursday and get it back to us, I will post it in the packet as soon as I get it um and we will we will put it on the
agenda for the 21st as well. >> 31st of this month. >> Oh yeah. Um, we'll see what I can do. >> Um, the only other option is the 28th.
Um, but we've got a couple other things that day. So, either one would get it back to the council for the 4th uh of November, which is our the council meeting following this coming one. So either I guess if you can't if it's not done in one TSO meeting,
if you happen to be having another TSO meeting prior to the 28th, um we can we can wait on it until then, but I don't think that you are if you're doing the normal meeting schedule. Um so that would be that >> we may need to think about whether we
can get an extra meeting in. Also, I did send you an email on a different subject. uh uh late this afternoon after um we settled about tonight. Uh
and that was the public urination defecation policy um by law. >> Yes. >> And that's very that's a pretty simple question. >> Um I saw your email come in. I I didn't
understand your question. You said >> you can't uh but we can talk about this later, Andy. I I the plan to put that on the agenda for um the I have it currently for the 28th, but um but
because it's not on our agenda, I don't want to talk quite about it yet. Athena. Um yeah, just I think this is under future agendas, but I spoke with Chief Ting about it and um he asked that if G members have questions about what KP Law
wrote, he's okay with what KP Law wrote. And if G members have questions about that to please send them to me so I can get them to Chief Ting ahead of your meeting on the 28th. Um and then if Andy wanted to attend that meeting for both the TBC charge and the public waste policy and public
urination, you can share what TSO spoke about at that meeting. >> Yeah. And I um if you go back to the uh email that Athena sent which had KP
Law's opinion just as a piece of her email. It was earlier this month. I gave date >> and you look and it was sent to the entire committee, your entire committee and our entire committee
>> and if you see what she suggested in alternate language, that's the subject. >> I am um I'm famili familiar with the alternate language and I know that I I will have plenty of questions on that topic. Um and so I'm I'm looking forward to the discussion. And so it sounds like
Athena what you were saying Chief Ting is able to come on the 28th. So we should I'll I'll do some agenda shuffling I think um so that Andy doesn't have to come to every single go meeting for the next 3 weeks. Um and we'll plan to take this up again uh the transportation both transportation and
parking charge and the public waste policy as well as public urination on the 28th. Um and yeah Andy does that sound good to you? Yes. And if you want to call me and say
what your reservations are, do that as offline. Sure. Um I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm happy to do that. I'm I'm just checking to in with myself to see if they are general concerns or clarity, consistency, and actionability, but I will um certainly
happy to talk with you about them ahead of time. Um all right, Andy, thank you very much. And please let me know or send me what TSO finally what TSO um ultimately decides on with the document. Um I I
believe you uh I can send this to you if you don't have it, but you sent it to me, so you must have it. Um so the the marked up version we were looking at today. Um and we will look forward to seeing the the decided upon TSO version for our next meeting
>> on the 28th. I'm sorry. It just let for so I understand you would like to have both have us work off of this copy with additional changes and then and send a clean copy too.
Yes, I'd like you to work off of that copy, resolving the qu resolving the changes and answering the questions within the document, right? To the best of your ability so that what we are looking at is what you think is ready to
send to council and we are just doing the fine tooth comb review. Yeah, I think that we answered the questions that uh u attorney Goldberg had asked uh and that was done and that's actually
incorporated in what we sent uh what Athena sent back. Um, but it is very confusing because of the way that things are just getting pasted on top of each other >> and there's a number of com questions
remaining on the side. Um, and I think >> those are the ones that I was referring to. >> Yes, >> they were fairly straightforward. >> I understand, but I it is not G's responsibility to answer those or to resolve them. And so I just want to make sure that what what G is reviewing is
essentially what TSO believes the council should be seeing and we're just that final filter. Lynn. Yeah. Andy, for the purposes of the big question that still is out there, and that is whether or not the council keeps
poll hearings or the new group does them, would you just highlight those areas that would be eliminated if the council decides to keep poll hearings? Just highlight them in yellow or do something so that when we actually do
this uh and we send it on to the council, we can between first and second reading remove those areas if we have to. Lynn, I think that would it would best be served if that were done as a separate copy of this because it wouldn't be in its final form as per the
rules. So, if we could do that, that'd be great. >> Um, okay, Andy, thank you very much. I hope >> let me know if if you have any follow-up questions on that. Um, but I look forward to talking again with you soon.
>> Yeah. And uh if as I said if you have things that you want to talk about regarding the other bottle >> so many thoughts about peeing outside but we'll talk later Pat. >> No I just want I just want us to move on not >> I heard you the first time you said it.
>> Discuss something. >> I heard you the first time you said it. Thank you Andy. Thank you very much and I will talk to you about it later. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Byebye. >> Thank you Andy. >> All right. So we are going to move on in our agenda. I will remind members please
raise your hands. Um we are going to move on to the um higher education proclamation uh that was sent to us and let me pull it up. Give me a moment. Sorry I've downloaded too many things
today. It's not showing up here. This the downloads folder is a nightmare of a of a place. All right. So, um, is everybody having a good day?
>> Well, I'm listed as a sponsor. >> Great. Pat, would you like to introduce it to us while I find it? Well, I don't uh I was contacted by Ian Roadwall and I said that I would sponsor it, but I needed him to pull it together and put it together because I was going on
vacation. Lynn actually pulled it together the other day. So, I'm a little frustrated, but I think what what it's basically saying is we need to um say to our state representatives, etc., that we
want $200 million to come into the universities, the co public colleges and the uh community colleges. So, um I don't know. I don't know what else to tell you. Um >> that's that's good. And I've got it
pulled up. I'm just gonna say I had to copy it over because it was in a funky file format. >> Yeah. So, thanks, Lynn. All right. >> You put your name on it. >> Council, you seem very quiet. Are you
okay? >> I am just reading through the resolution. >> All right. >> Yeah. Now, see, I have Lynn and I have commas on this one. So, if we're going
to be consistent about I prefer commas, but be after whereas. >> Yep. Well, let me let me just let's start at the top here. Um, >> does it matter? >> Uh, you said we were adding Lynn. Is that Lyn? No. >> Oh, I she didn't offer that.
>> Um, all right. So, >> yeah. No, I'm going to sponsor it. That's fine. Leave my name on it. >> I did leave your name on. I just kept it as your last name because that's what we typically >> Gotcha. Gotcha. >> Um All right. So, we've got our council sponsor, community sponsors. Um I'm
going to I will do the rest of them later, but um just capitalizing those. Um well, as we look at the first whereas any discussion? All right, let's go to this. Um, and you did not have this with commas pack cuz I copied this exactly from the document
that was in the packet. So, I did not edit these out. These were semicolons. >> All right. Blame her. >> All right. Counselor counselor et go ahead. >> Just had a question on Massachusetts State Universities.
>> Is that a proper form? Yeah, they actually are a combination of universities and colleges. There's nine of them. Some of them are still colleges, some of them are universities, >> right? But do we need separately then the University of Massachusetts? Because
>> Yes, that is a separate entity. There's >> Oh, it Oh, >> there's three different divisions in higher ed. There's 15 community colleges. >> I have to check that. My dog rarely barks. >> There's nine state universities and um colleges. And then there are five
campuses of the University of Massachusetts. >> Yep. >> So my question I I think everyone else would be better placed to answer it if I'm correct. This is the Commonwealth. >> I was that's what I was like I was like
he's going to pick up on the word state. >> That's not how they use it. >> They're called refer to it as their names will say like Westfield State. >> Yeah. Yep. But um I'm just proud of myself that I was like, I know what he's about to say. All right.
>> Um Okay. Second, whereas whereas public colleges and universities, I I want to add a that is or which is um here, but maybe it makes sense with that. I I feel like it's sticking in my head, but I don't know why. Um, no, it
makes sense. Never mind. Ignore me. I read it again. Okay, next one. Whereas public colleges and universities across the state are whereas public education provides Should we go back and just continue to say
public colleges and universities? >> Where are we? >> Right. Uh the where it says public education. >> Yes. Otherwise it is at all levels. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Then would it be provide? Whereas
provide? >> Yeah. Provide. Okay. uh are conducting research and studies that benefit people all around the world and then I'm assuming it's a legacy hand right whereas public colleges and universities have a responsibility to
ensure whereas public colleges and universities are experiencing Whereas the federal budget under consideration is proposing. Is this talking which federal? Sorry. The federal budget under consideration. This is like an idiotic statement. Where
are we in the federal budget cycle? Is there a new federal budget or is or is this a diff this is the same one? Okay. >> I don't know. I don't know. >> Um >> why do we say the federal budget process? >> Oh, that's good. >> Or the f Let me look at this. The federal budget process
>> is considering severe reductions. >> Includes consideration of severe reductions. Because the federal how about the federal budget discussions include proposing severe reductions in funding
>> because the the federal budget passed. So that's why I'm I'm confused about >> I am too. I'm sorry. >> You're right. The one that passed in um on July >> bill uh I believe that um that already uh
interested uh cutting pal grants. >> Yes. Can we take this out? Unless we have the actual data. Hang on. >> Federal budget. >> Oh, we should say the federal budget >> includes severe reductions.
>> Yeah, that they did. Yeah. >> So, it's under consideration is proposing it's federal budget includes Do you want me? >> And I just I just want to double check because I think >> there's an extra space there.
>> I hear you. One one second. Sorry. Um cuz I thought that Pel there it it was funky with pal. Um >> really >> I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. >> No, I know. I
Sorry. I'm trying to find the like >> Go. It was supposed to cut it more than it ultimately did is my understanding. Um but so I just want to make sure that it still had bad cuts. Okay. So it limited eligibility
reduce or limited funding for two-thirds of grant recipients. Okay. So then um all right, I'm I'm going to leave this here then. Um except that I'm going to capitalize PEL grants because that is the title.
I'm going to just say the current. All right. Whereas Massachusetts voters approved the uh fair share. This should be called the fair share
amendment, not the fair share sir tax. Um amendment or a sir tax. >> Yeah, that's better. >> Yeah, >> but it's it's just a tax. How do you define a tax versus a sir tax? Sorry. Uh councilor
attemps. >> Hang on. Where are you? >> Incomes above. >> Thank you. Uh and I'm going to spell out 1 million. But um can someone tell me the difference between a tax and a sir tax?
>> Got me. >> All right. Well, the the >> I call it a tax. I think it's fine. >> All right. Um >> I'm gonna look it up in the dictionary. >> I I just I Googled it quickly. I am curious about the difference, but the the difference was the budget office
does say Certax. So that's >> happy to keep it there, but every website about it calls it a tax. So I I am curious. Um I'll I'll keep the 1 million too. It's fine. To generate revenue specifically for public transportation and public education and transportation.
Okay. Now therefore, >> a sir tax is an extra tax or charge. >> Okay. >> A graduated income tax in addition to
the normal income tax imposed on the amount. So it is in addition to >> whatever their state taxes would normally be. >> Well, I learned something new today. The difference between a tax and a s tax. Thank you, Pat. >> You're welcome. Thank Miriam Webster.
>> I always do. Uh local local heroes. All right. Now, therefore, we the Emerstone Council resolve to voice our support. We are This is it. So, we are resolved to support.
>> That's fine. >> Right. Okay. Um be it further resolved that the Ammerststone Council urges the state legislature to set aside 200 million for more than the two billion generated by
the fair share. >> Amendment. >> Thank you. As a first step towards stabilizing public higher education funding that supports students, faculty, and staff. We need to Is it a semicolon or a period?
>> I think it's a period. It's period. Yeah, >> it is. >> Um, be it further resolved, the Ammeristown Council urges the state legislature and governor capitalized to strategically increase funding for public colleges and
universities to lessen their reliance on grants, privatization, and student tuition and fees. Is governor capitalized here? >> Yes, >> I thought. Thank you. Um, be it further resolved that the Emertown Council supports Massachusetts having public colleges and universities
that students can attend without incurring debt necessary to retain and attract the staff and faculty needed to maintain the quality of education our state deserves. >> If you want to, you can change common. >> I was just about to ask if I could do
that. Thank you. All right. We are special enough. Let's own it. Um, okay. any so any clarity, consistency, or actionability, not substantive issues with this last one. Okay. Is there a I'm going to add the
word mark up here or the seal up here if that's okay. >> Um, with those edits, is there a motion to find the town of Ammerst resolution regarding increased funding for public higher education clear, consistent, and actionable? >> So move. Second. >> Is there a second? Thank you. I'm going
to call the vote. Council Arte. >> Hi >> Lyn Gremer. >> Hi >> Pat D'Angelus. >> Hi. >> I am an I as well. Thank you very very much. >> I'm a me. >> What? >> Nothing. I just said I'm a me.
>> Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I the remaining item on our agenda two two remaining items on our agenda include the ADU zoning bylaw amendment and the town manager goals. Um I have
Athena question for you. Um, I have the version that Pam sent, but I could not find comments from KP Law, and I just wanted to make sure I I could not I I searched again. Searched a lot of places. Um, I wanted
>> Adu. >> Yeah, let me check. I think there Um, Yep. I'm just pulling it up. >> Sorry for the delay.
>> No worries. Thank you. Um, she wrote Carolyn Murray, who's one of the attorneys, wrote, "I've reviewed the proposed zoning amendment to delete the existing article 5.011 of the town's zoning bylaws and replace it with the new 5.011
regulating d. In my opinion, the proposed zoning amendment is in good legal form, consistent with state law, and actionable by the town council. So I think that's all that I had sent was that that was her comment. So there wasn't like a whole >> Thank you document. So that's probably
why you couldn't find it. >> Well, I like this Caroline person. She's great >> and I appreciate her succinctness. Um all right. I I also I do adore Lauren,
but she goes above and beyond, man. Okay, so um let's go through this. This is what we got from CRC. We do have uh Pat, you are on CRC, so hopefully you can clarif counselor, are you also on CRC? >> No. Okay. Um
>> you should have been, but >> Okay. Um thank you. >> We got the twins instead. >> All right, Pat, please. Uh I'm gonna I'm gonna mute you before you get yourself in more time. >> Fine with me. >> Oh, okay. We're gonna Let's go through this for clarity, consistency, and
actionability here. Um starting with purpose. Oh, and so just a reminder on this. I believe Pat, the context here is that CRC was reviewing this in light of state law necessitating changes to ADU policies in town in towns and cities
across Massachusetts. We had to look at ours and and revise it to be aligned. Is that correct? >> Right. Yes, that's correct. And the planning department u with Rob more um not Rob Morona, Nate Malloy has reviewed it and the planning board itself has reviewed it.
>> Thank you. Um, all right. So, I'm going to just look at the changes so that we can look at this like they want us to look at it. I'm going to start clarifying that people should be sending us things
that they're that are ready to go. Okay. Um, let's let's run it back. Town of Ammeris permits. Oh, sorry. I guess we have to start in purpose. That would make more sense. accessory dwelling units um allow the town of Ammerst to expand and diversify
its housing supply. You all can read I won't read it out loud but first paragraph. Okay. Applicability. Please read it through. Sorry. I'm going to do the thing that otherwise Mandy does and catches me
with. So, I'm just going to make sure these are the right laws. Okay, great. Any issues so far? A through C. >> I'd accept the markups they have on it. >> Oh, yeah. Thank you. Including the paragraph.
>> I did this one. No, up above there's in the very a second in >> Oh, I know these little ones. Yeah, I I will definitely accept all changes before I send it to the thing. It's just sometimes they're fiddly to click on. Um, all right.
Definitions As a non-planner person, I want to add square footage some, but I'm think that that would will eventually be obvious to people and I can let it go. Okay. Any going down to B and C? Tell me if
I'm going too fast. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. That's why I didn't want to do this at this point. and going down to D. Okay. Any issues? All right. 5.0113 general requirements for protected use
accessory dwelling units and local. I don't think we need the second four, but I think that's me being really finicky. allowed by the Department of Public Works, meaning that they would sign off on it in a planning board hearing or
something like that. Oh, I don't know what that means. Like, how do they allow it? And apologies if this is just me not understanding the the process. Seems to me that if it was under some
prior law, it would be allowed, but that's very sloppy language. >> Are you on D? >> Yeah. Oh, Pat, you're muted. I don't know if you're talking to me. I'm so sorry. >> I think the idea here is that there there would need to be permission
granted. >> Yeah. >> Right. I just I'm I'm not sure like what that I I understand the concept of permission granted, but is that a process that the like if I'm looking at this trying to build an ADU?
Is there a form I'm supposed to fill out? Is it just like me emailing the DPW email and saying, "Hey, am I allowed to do this or is it part of the planning process that would come up in a hearing or in a permit process?" >> It would come up in the permit process. It would be part of the request. So, can
I say approved instead of allowed? I It feels like that to me feels more formal, Pat. >> Well, I don't care whether we say approved or allowed. So, I'm I'm okay with that change to um shall be permitted unless approved
by the Department of Public Works. >> To me, that indicates that that approval is received as part of the process versus allowed, which is just like I don't know. >> Hey, go ahead. Do it. >> All right. All right. I get it. You're sick of me tonight. All right. No, I'm not. >> Not yet.
>> You'll get there, I'm sure. Okay. >> Unless approved. No one caught me spelling the wrong word out. Come on, everybody. >> I'm tired, girl. >> Me, too. Okay. Parking plan shall be submitted to and approved by the building commissioner. Shall be in
accordance with the section with the sorry, design and landscape standards of section seven of the zoning ground law. If the principal dwelling or any ADU will be rented, any rental unit shall be registered and permitted in accordance
with the residential rental property by law. Love it. Love to see it. All exterior lighting shall be designed and installed as to be shielded, downcast, and dark sky compliant to avoid light trespass onto adjacent properties. On-site storage and management of waste
and recycling shall be located on the interior of the dwelling within an attached garage or other accessory out building. Excuse me. >> Or screened appropriately from public view. >> Lynn, I actually didn't get my Whoops. I
didn't get my hand up fast enough. It I really think that whenever we cite a bylaw, we should include the number. Yeah, probably. >> Okay. I think >> those need to be checked.
>> It says with section >> Well, there was >> 350. So, I think that is the bylaw. You don't >> It could be to try to Let's see. Hang on. >> I'll work. Athena, do you have any insights on to
why that part was removed? Or Pat, actually, you were there. Sorry. >> I don't remember. I'm sorry. You're talking to a 79year-old idiot. >> I think it was probably re removed in case the number changes. >> That was my thought was that it makes this easier to look back on year after
year versus having to if anything gets shifted in numbers having to go back. >> That's right. That's right. I get the logic of needing >> Thank God for Athena. >> I say that like 18 times a day. Um, all right. Are we okay with it or do you do we feel
that we want to site go back and site this? >> Okay. >> No, that's fine. >> Okay. No more than two on-site parking spaces provided for any ADU.
>> I think that's stupid because we have three people live in it, but substantive. I know. I know. I have a question. Is this per each ADU? for any ADU. So, >> right. So, if I have two on my property, I can have four four parking
>> parking spaces. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And I will just tell you, we are going to hear from the public on >> Oh, I I know. I know. >> To the extent feasible, a newly constructed detached ADU shall be
located behind the front building line of the sorry, come on. the principal dwelling closest to the street. Um, good. What? All right. I I can let it go. I
just All right. Who determines feasibility? >> Right. >> Um, and if I say it's not feasible for me personally, is it still a requirement? >> It come. Let's move on. No, I I that is
in my mind that's a clarity question. I can let it go if it becomes, but I don't know what this means like who determines feasibility. >> I I know that I can be really picky about this kind of thing. So I I >> Oh, it's all right. No, I'm sorry. I'm tired, honey. >> It's fine.
>> So the question I think is >> I think I think my internet lagged for a second. Councelor Ae, could you go and then Lyn, >> I was just saying you could put that comment on physibility in your notes. >> I I will I won't forget it. Thank you,
Lynn. >> It seems to me that that's a permitting issue and I it again it's pretty sloppy to the extent feasible.
Well, it could be that the only place to pl a place to place an ADU, whether it is a protected or a local, is to the side and in front of of the building. >> It's a possibility.
>> Aren't all of these permitting issues like aren't aren't these all playing into the permit? >> Yeah. >> All right. I think I can I can I agree that this is sloppy and I think that
it's so variable based on the situation that I don't have better language to put in here that wouldn't accidentally mess up anyone's chances of being able to do this. So, I think that unless people want to take it out fully, it's got to um I just I am I am not clear on it, nor
do I think that this is actionable. um specific requirements. So, and unless someone else wants to stand strongly behind that, we'll leave it in. All right. Specific requirements for protected use accessory dwelling units.
There is no minimum lot size. What is happening here? Oh, there's a comment. Oh, Nate. Uh the more permissive, i.e. least restrictive dimensional regulations found in article six of the zoning bylaw for a detached single family dwelling. the principal dwelling or an accessory structure shall apply to
the protected use ADU. In accordance with 760 CMR, no parking space shall be required for protected use ADU located within a half mile of a commuter rail station or bus stop. The way I want to be so picky and say
they don't mean school bus stop, they mean Okay. Um, sorry Pat. I'm sorry Pat. Okay. Specific requirements for local accessory accessory dwelling units. Either the principal dwelling or the local ADU shall be occupied by the owner as their
principal residence. Um, this owner occupancy requirement shall be made a condition of approval by the commissioner and restricted as such by a deed restriction filed with the registry of deeds. Local
ADU shall be designed so that the appearance and scale of the structure is compatible with the principal dwelling. Oh, I have so many thoughts on that, but none for this meeting. All dimensional standards found in the zoning bylaw, including those for accessory structures
and table 3 dimensional regulations, shall apply to the local ADU with the exception of the additional lot area and family requirement. And the gross floor area for a local ADU does not include the area of unfinished basement space used for storage and
utilities. Okay. Unless there are any other proposals for for changes to make this clear, consistent, and actionable. Is there a motion to find the accessory dwelling unit zoning amendment clear, consistent, and actionable? >> So moved. >> Is there a second?
>> Second. All right, calling the vote. Council atte. >> Lynn >> I. >> Pat >> I. >> And I am an I as well. >> As I'm saving this, I have a question that's unrelated. Pat, don't get mad. Has anyone read the children's book The
Big Orange Splotch? >> No. >> It is one of my favorite children's books and I will be referencing it in the council meeting when this comes up. Uh, if anyone would like to borrow my copy, I'm >> I would love to see it. >> I will I'll bring I might just bring it to the council meeting, Pat. All right.
All right, friends. So, next up, uh, last up is our town manager goals and upcoming topics. So, I took a stab at something today. Um, and I want to talk about it. So,
we have one, two, three, four, five meetings left of go. Technically, we have six, but one of them is scheduled for after the last council meeting. So, um, I don't think that that one's going to happen. Um, just gonna anticipate that one. Not unless we want to hang
out. Um, but >> we could read the orange splotch. >> We could read the orange splotch. So, I uh tried to Hang on one second. Let me pull it up. Uh in those five meetings with the council meetings that
come between we so really the four meetings we need to finish the draft 2026 town manager goals and get them to the council for approval and then feedback and then edit them again. Last year this process took us a long time but last year we also were really
significantly changing the format and the style of the goals. So hopefully I am eternally optimistic that this year will go quicker. Um, I wanted to just map out the last few meetings here and
think about what the process looks like for us to think about these goals. At our meeting on the 20th during my go update, I am going to mention to counselors that this process is starting in earnest and that they need to start thinking about the action items that
they would like to see in 2026. The challenge with this is that this process is happening at the same time as the time manager evaluation process, which is kind of the benchmark of what got done, what's left to do. So, we're we're doing a little bit concurrently and
ideally they'd be a little bit more spaced out, but this is where we're at. So, um I will be asking counselors to start thinking about this. I plan I we are going to have to give counselors a deadline to give us their goals that they would like to see. When we're
thinking about goals, I'm going to warn you in advance. I conflate two terms and I'm going to try to keep them separate, but I often conflate them. I often conflate the term action item and the term goal. We are going to primarily ask counselors to submit action items. Um,
couple things to consider. You all saw when we looked at the town manager evaluation this year that we gave Paul way too many action items. We do this every year. This is not new. we cut back, but we've got a ways to go to make a feasible list of action items to
do in a year. So, we need to as a committee take all of the feedback, we will combine them, distill it down, and we need to go back to the council with a list that ultimately they are able to vote on for the town manager for the
coming year. Um, I've got a lot of learning from last year about things that I want to make sure do not happen again, but at the end of the day, the council is supposed to be taking a vote on yes or no on each item uh that should be included in the town manager goals.
So, I didn't finish. Oh, yeah, we did. Okay. So, sorry, I'm trying to get all my thoughts to gel. Basically the gist of this is that the council will need to give us really strong feedback um by the
10th so that we can look at the or we can I I'll take a first stab at organizing the goals that we get and we can pitch something back to the council um for the f like we're going to have to go
back and forth. I would love us to pitch something to the council by the 17th. I don't we can try maybe we can pitch a couple areas at a time. Um but I think that realistically we're going to have to do this on the 1st and the 15th at
council. Um this is about twice as fast as we went last time just for context. So we're going to have to be really efficient and a little bit brutal. Uh I'll just warn you in advance. Don't get too attached to anything. Um, we're going to have to be a little bit aggressive as we go a
lot aggressive as we go through this. I would really love input and thoughts on this because truly I just I needed to just put something on paper for us to discuss. I'm not wedded to this, but I'd love to hear thoughts on the process, on the timeline, on what you would like to see done the same or done differently
this year. And I did toss the goals from last year into your packet, but I can pull those up if if it would be helpful. No thoughts if it's helpful. Let me pull this down. Oh, Lynn, go ahead. >> Yeah, I think this works. I don't think we have much choice.
>> That's kind of where I'm at, too. I don't know that unless we really shove the council to get us goals in some weird time that's in the middle of October which won't work. So >> won't work because they >> they really aren't going to focus on them. I mean they won't focus.
>> No, they won't. So I tried to push it as much as I could in terms of getting it done and and but this is kind of where we're at. The scary part of this is as we transitioned into our next item uh is all of the things that we have left on
our docket. I'm I'm bummed we didn't get through transportation today because that is now still remaining for us. Um so couple things that we've got left here. Many things we have to finish the public ways um changes and the
transportation advisory commission charge. We have voted the ADU bylaw clear, consistent, and actionable. Thank you. Um, so that is now off. We need to discuss hopefully this will
be brief, but one of the things this committee discussed in our conversation has discussed in our discussions is needed changes to the um committee review of committee charges and rules. Uh and part of the process that we've
talked about is the need sorry let me re refresh part of go's charge is to review committee charges and rules. Part of what this committee has discussed is the inefficiency of things going to go and then coming to going to KP law and then coming to go. I would like us to discuss
the a change in the charge of each committee to include legal reviews as relevant or whatever text we decide is perfect for that space so that committees themselves are receiving the legal review not go because ultimately often go is coming back with needing to
send it back anyway. So um I don't think that'll take very long. I just got to get it on an agenda. So that's the plan that's planned for one of our coming upcoming meetings. 10 manager goals will take us many many meetings. Um we will have to begin our carryover memo at some point soon. Lynn,
>> I just want to mention on the issue of other things that we might want to deal with with regard to the rules or procedure. I actually think that the one you just mentioned I think is is worthy of being of doing as fast as we can. Uh but the other ones I think we can wait
until we see what the charter commission charter review committee comes back with because Some of their suggestions are going to be related to goals, not to the charter. So that's really next council's problem. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, sorry, sorry. >> Goals or you mean charges?
>> Rules. >> Charter committee. The charter review committee. >> Yes, I understand. >> Going to come back with recommendations, some of which have nothing to do with the charter, but probably have something to do with the goal with our uh rules of procedure.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> yep. >> I think except for the change you just mentioned, which I would be a critical one, it would be best for us not to try to tackle rules of procedure this year. >> I haven't received the way that we handled it was I waited to receive
proposed changes and I did not receive any. Um, we I have sent the FINCOM selection guidance and interview questions to Kathy for any uh comments. She said it would looked fine. So we will be discussing the um as you know we have a vacancy on for a resident member
on fin. So we will be discussing the interview questions and selection guidance for that committee. Uh and we will also be reviewing the charter vac the charter commission vacancy uh selection guidance and interview questions as well. We've got two
proclamations at uh an upcoming meeting. Healthcare for all and small business Saturday. Those have both been referred. We have public urination. Um and um I think that there was something else coming to us as well. So those the things I just listed are things that
have already come to us. Um there are several other things that committees are still working on. I can my brain isn't pulling them to the forefront in this exact moment, but you all are in the other committees, so you know that you're working on things and they will come to go. Um so we have a lot left to
do. Um I'm going to ask folks to I have already placed the two proclamations for next meeting in your packet. Um so please for in in the packet for next week. So please take a look at those and come in with edits blazing if possible. Um so that we can just run run through
them quickly. Uh I will also put and I have also put the vacancy review questions and selection guidance in that packet as well. So, please again come with edits. Otherwise, we're going to try to go quickly to an approval process. Uh, and then write our carryover. Pat,
>> I'm just wondering like I'm thinking about public urination D. >> I think about it a lot. >> Is that really necessary to have completed before the end of December? >> I mean, I think >> that be pushed for, you know, as the car
as one of the carryover items. I mean, I think we have to prioritize in the material that we get what really needs to be done this year. >> I hear you. I think that that specific example because I think
that's more a council question because I think that given how short that bylaw is, uh, go's discussion might be very quick. Um, it's a good question and I think if the committee decides that they would like to have something moved and
vote it to be a carryover item before we do the carryover memo. Um, this committee could >> Yeah. I'm just >> I don't have a good answer for you. It's a it's a good question, Lynn. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If you want, I could quickly
review what has either been not scheduled or is in committee. >> That would be helpful. Um I think it's something I have not done a great job of tracking when where things are. >> It's not the most easiest thing to track.
>> Yeah. uh on the uh 10 on the 3rd of No, actually on the 15th of um no 17th of November, the council is going to receive the draft resident oversight
board bylaw >> or the 10th of I'm sorry, say that again. >> Resident oversight board. >> Yeah. On on the 10th of November or December >> in in November. on the 17th. >> 17th. >> I don't see any way that we're going to be able to complete that in this term.
>> No, I don't think so. >> Uh the human rights bylaw, I'm not sure what's happening with that, but if we get it again, it's going to the earliest it'll come to us is um right after November 3rd.
>> My understanding is that that bylaw is with Paul currently. >> It is. It is um the Heatherstone Road. That's doesn't housing production plan does not solar bylaw looks like it's not going to happen this term because the state is messing with their stuff. Um
and we have ADU uh the evaluation process. We're in the middle of town managers goals legislative process guide that's still on our plate. Um rules of procedure we talked about that.
Um the street light policy I don't think is coming forward. Uh and um the refuge rec collection and recyclable materials is not going to happen this term. >> Um
>> thank God. and the um anything regarding the intersection uh near the new elementary school isn't going to happen in this term. Okay. >> Yep. >> So, thank you, Lynn. Um
we still have plenty to do in our in our last meetings. What I will to circle back to the goals. Uh if you all would like a chance to start your town manager evaluation early and concurrently prep for our future discussion on goals, it
would behoove you to look at the action items and goals from 2025. And just note whether you personally believe that they should be placed on the goals for 2026 um or whether they were complete. as you
know, those are questions that we ask in the town manager evaluation. So, you can get a jump start on knowing what your answers would be for that. Um, but that's often where folks tend to start. I personally would rather start with a blank slate. Um, I'm I do not plan to put all of those goals on the table and
say let's decide keep leave not because I think it's too easy for us to say let's keep too many of them. So, as individuals, if you would like to look at the goals list and say here are the ones that I believe I that to carry over. Um, not just the
ones that let's carry it over because I don't really know what else to say about it. Mark on the goals which ones you would like to put on for 2026 and think about other uh other other action items that you would like to see as well as how feasible they would be. Are there
any questions about upcoming topics? As I noted, we will have an extra meeting on the 21st of October. Thank you all very much for uh bearing with us here. I want to say bearing with me, but like it's also it wasn't it's it's necessary. It's not something I'm I'm super excited
about. Uh so we have an extra meeting on the 21st and then we have a meeting on the 28th. So we will be cranking out these these uh these items to get back to the council. Any other questions or comments? I think I got through everything. I hope I didn't miss anything.
Okay. Other than that, I do not have any unanticipated topics. Um, thank you all very much and just thank you in advance for your patience and grace graciousness as we go into the next month, which I think is going to be a bit of a doozy on all fronts. So, thank you uh for showing up and being your wonderful selves and
being thoughtful and kindish. >> Move to adjourn. >> Thank you. Is there a second? >> All right. Uh, gonna call the vote. Lynn, >> I hat. >> No. >> Thank you. Councelor atte. >> And I am an I as well. The motion
passes. Three in favor, one cranky. All right. Have a great evening everyone. I will >> Thank you all. I'll see you next week. Bye. >> Thank you, Athena. >> Good night. >> See you tomorrow. See you tomorrow.