Okay, we're recording. Please go ahead. >> Awesome. Thank you. I uh welcome to G everybody. It is Tuesday, March 24th, 6:33 p.m. I'm going to call this meeting of the Governance, Organization, and Legislation Committee to order. I will begin by asking the members present if
they can hear and be heard. Let's start with Councelor Ryan. >> I'm here. >> Glad to see you. Uh Lynn Griezmer, >> I am present. >> Excellent news. and I am here as well. And thank you, Athena, for coordinating us this evening. We'll keep an eye out
for counselor Lord. I cannot remember if she said she couldn't be here. I thought I thought she said she would, so I'm not positive. So, we'll keep an eye out. >> I'm just sending her a message now. >> Okay. Thanks so much. And uh my apologies if I missed missed her saying last week that she wouldn't be here. We
currently have no members of the public. Um so, this is the time where we would offer public comment, but there's no one here. Um, so with that, we're going to discuss the Human Rights Commission bylaw first. Uh, well, then we'll go to the bylaw review committee vacancies, the annual review
of the rules of procedure and the minutes. Um, and this is something so I was thinking about, let's start with the Human Rights Commission. I was thinking about this earlier today and kind of making sure I was prepped for the meeting and um I think that I had talked
about doing this in our last meeting, but I put something in the packet very late this afternoon um that I wanted to discuss today and it's really to to let me back up. We've been talking
about pulling the HRC from being a bylaw into being a charge. The committee has discussed this being the more appropriate venue as what is in the bylaws is currently a charge and a and a practice by that by that committee. Um it's not in keeping with any of our
other bylaws really and it was created that way because that was how town meeting could create the body. So with that said, I took both versions. I took the original version and the updated version and I tried to kind of pull the
pieces over that I felt would be in the charge uh and not the pieces that are internal functions of the group. I spoke with Paul uh this weekend about this really briefly in passing. We were both at Applewood, my favorite place to be. And
um we were talking about uh the fact that Pamela Nolan Young, our DEI director, and Lauren Goldberg from KP Law would love to join us for a discussion at our next meeting on April 14th. So, um so I want us to talk
through this charge version today. We can compare it to the initial memo the the present what was presented in the memo. But Paul said that a lot of the reason why KP laws or a lot of KP law's concern was coming from the fact that we
were that what we were doing was codifying something into a bylaw and there's a bit more latitude for the commission if it's in their practice as a commission versus in our bylaw. Does that make sense?
Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> So, so I'm gonna share my screen and I'll share the uh the bylaw. Also, I went to my office today so that I don't have Wi-Fi issues. So, if I start to have Wi-Fi issues here there, this is something is messing with me from the
great beyond. And uh it's just not meant to be. Um all right. So, you can pull this up on your screen if you'd like to or you can look at mine. I will zoom in a little. For some reason, this added a bonus page. I Oh, wait. Did it take it away? All right.
Never mind. It took it away. I'm losing it. So, I need There's a couple things I need to do, uh, which is reread my charter to make sure I get my sections correct, but um, we can look at that. So, I just highlighted those pieces for
now. Um, and this would be a a standing. Is it just called? This is the other piece. Again, I did this in a very short amount of time. Let's ignore this part for now. So um
is there presently nine? I thought it was seven. >> The so the bylaw right here nine. >> Okay. >> Yep. And I think that that stayed the same. I know they've had
>> stayed the same in their in their new version, I believe. Yeah. >> I I know they've had times when they've had trouble um >> finding nine people. Yeah. >> Well, and recruiting people and als
I I think we leave it at nine. We bring it up later. >> Yeah. There was something about Yeah, I think Okay, so I am not clear. I think the background piece of this could be a narrative that
we draft quickly at the end, but I'm not sure. I pulled this from the bylaw review committee and the charter review committee charges um just as reference points and so they had backgrounds referencing their their requirement as per the charter. So, I
have not looked to see how other bodies handle the background section. Um, or whether >> a lot of them don't have it. >> I was going to say I didn't think that it was in many of them. That said, it could be something that we decide to draft for this uh for this committee as
we um as we go forward. So, um I just want to I I just noticed Ronnie Parker joined us in the audience. And Ronnie, in case you just missed my narrative at the beginning about what we're doing, I took the liberty of trying to pull over the pieces of the
memo that would be appropriate for a charge um so that the committee could discuss that at our next meeting on April 14th. We should be joined by uh Pamela Nolan Young and a representative from KP Law to discuss this further. But I wanted to get them kind of at least
something that showed the direction that we were hoping to go. So, in the purpose, Oh, go ahead, Athena. >> In the um the committee template, >> yeah, >> there's not a background section. >> Okay, great. So,
>> in like the the official council committee template, a background, it's just composition, purpose, charge, reports, action. >> That explains why I was sitting there looking at this like what am I supposed to write here? >> Excuse me. Okay. Um, I pulled this piece
from the Sorry, I know I'm going back and forth from the proposed memo or from the proposed human rights bylaw and the memo. Oh my god, too many drafts. So, if you want to take a moment to read that,
I will put it all on the screen there. >> I'm sorry, this wasn't in the online packet. I didn't know that you had added it to the SharePoint folder. So, I'm I'm adding it now. >> I am sorry, Athena. I added it truly just a couple hours ago when I realized I should probably have something for us to discuss and I should have let you know. I apologize for that.
>> Thank you for adding it online. Are there when you're done let me know if you are good with this or if you have any thoughts on the purpose section and again this was what was proposed by the HRC um we have not seen KP law comments
directly on this and we will they will provide them. Paul did say that KP Law would seek to provide us with comments prior to the meeting on the 14th >> any >> so this procedural question um
>> I like this very much I think this is the right direction to go in um I think normally what we maybe asked I'm I've been doing a couple of things while you've been talking. I apologize. I wanted to get this up on my computer and it requires a whole multitude of steps.
Unlike anyone else, I have to do it the hard way. But, um, we want to go through this sort of section by section together. Is that your plan? Um, >> no. >> Um, what's your thought? >> That is my plan. Um, this will not be
the only time that we discuss this, right? So, um, it's I'm not expecting folks to have profound thoughts at this point, more of just initial thoughts. This this part isn't new. We will revisit this with comments from I assume
that HRC will will look at this, although this is what they proposed, so I I think it'll be good with them. Um, and comments from the lawyer and comments from uh Pamela Nolan Young. So, we're going to be looking at this again. I don't know if that answered your question, George. happy to take any thoughts that you have right now.
>> Um, so beyond our just looking at it quietly for the next few minutes, do you think or do you want to go through it in any detail now? You want to hold that off for a future meeting? Is that what your thought is? >> No, I I think that we can go through it in detail now. Okay. >> And and whatever we finish this meeting
with, I will send to KP Law, Pamela, and uh the chair of the HRC. >> Okay. Okay. Um but our direction at this point in time is to uh take what we've been given and
refashion it into a committee charge >> and hence if what we plan to do comes about it will come out of the uh uh out of our bylaws and it will exist as it in this format. Is that what we intend
ultimately? That is the kind of the straw poll that we we took uh in the committee a couple meetings ago. Um the motion the recommended motion language to the council will be to strike the bylaw and to approve a charge. >> Okay, >> probably two motions
>> and the argument we've been making has been that this would give um the commission greater flexibility. um it would still preserve u their uh their goals and their mission and to a large degree their language. So that's
something we're going to work on today. Um but also give them much greater um flexibility to adjust and adapt rather than having to go through the cumbersome charter review process, charter change, >> bylaw bylaw, sorry. Yes. Yes. Yes. It is
that, but it's also it removes doing this does remove a large portion from the council's hands, which I'll speak for myself, I think is appropriate. We do not scrutinize and go over the the writtenout policy of of any other
committee um unless it's a bylaw, right? So, >> we we leave the procedures of a committee up to the committee to >> the committee. And right now, if HRC wants to change their procedures, they have to go through the bylaw because they're all spelled out in there. So, in
my mind, this is giving the commission, I keep saying committee, and I mean commission. I apologize. It gives the commission that agency that is in keeping with the other commissions that we have. Um, it also reduces the cumbersome nature of making changes and
it aligns it with other every other commission that we have. Um, right now it's not in our bylaw. So, so that said, what I don't know the answer to is as we go through this, I would argue that while the commission is
likely well served by heeding KP Law's recommendations, it would no longer be this body's >> responsibility to edit or change the procedures of the Human Rights Commission because we are not including
those in a B in a charge. So, in the memo, just to illustrate, they talk about all of these procedures. >> Um, we do I included this uh the piece
the duties I wrote under the the charge, right? >> Um, but the complaint resolution procedures, >> right, >> is not we would not deal with >> put this in the charge, right? We leave this up to the committee >> to decide in its own internal
deliberations. >> It would be their job to to sort to sort this. Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> And if if anyone thinks that that's not appropriate, please let me know. That was just my interpretation. >> My memory too. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Uh Lynn, >> I'm having um one of my cold pits. Um um excuse me. Um my only question with all of this is the same as when it was a bylaw and that is
does this broad statement of literally protecting everybody expose the town to a liability? That's all. Uh, >> I think that's the language that we're going to have to uh to look at.
>> See, I think that's I think that's where the lawyers are are >> they'll be important. That's true. >> Um, >> this >> Yeah. >> part. I want to make sure I'm highlighting the correct piece. All persons. Yeah, it's that but it's also um
it up above it says uh do I >> oh this refers to the purpose is a human rights of town of Ammerst residents I mean >> okay >> so it's really a very broad protective
statement that I just think that prior to any recommend recommendation to the council. It's our responsibility to determine if we have established a liability for the temp.
My sense is that um that we've had that liability for a while and that >> okay so I will include that in the comments that I send to Cula,
any other thoughts on this charge? >> Oh, >> okay. I mean on the purpose. I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. >> Again, I think you know >> the purpose section, the purpose language. Yeah. Questions. Yeah. >> I think this group has worked through this. I think this is what they
desire and I've not been shy about what my concerns are. So let's talk about the actual charge items then because that was the purpose section. There are two I I just wanted to show the um the new version is is much more extensive in
terms of the items within the kind of shall do category. >> So um this is the this is the four that are are in here. And it might be that once the you know I I'll want to hear back once I send this once we finish
discussing and I send this out. want to hear from Pamela and the commission as to whether they actually want the charge now that it's a charge to be a bit more broad and not as detailed. Um, so that because this is now the thing that would create those guard rails for them versus
the bylaw. So I could understand why they'd want the bylaw to have all of the pieces contained within it, but it could be that if once it's a charge, they want it to be a bit more broad so that they can shift within those broad parameters. if that makes sense.
>> It does. >> So, uh, >> so yeah, so the top four are the old version and the bottom 9 to 11 11 are the new version. So, I'll
start with this page and then tell me when you're ready and want me to scroll. >> Well, I'm sorry. I apologize to both of you, but um I do have questions about the language in the purpose section. >> Oh, I'm sorry. But maybe it's better to leave it for the lawyers. Um terms like
microaggression, macroaggression, disrespect. Um it just seems to be um well beyond what you know any commission can do um in terms of just what the words mean. Um if a clerk in town hall
is rude to me, is that a violation of my human rights? Um I don't even know what a microaggression means in this context. Um, I'm not even sure what a macroaggression is. So, I have all kinds of questions about the language here, but perhaps what you wish is that this
be taken up with the lawyers at present. Um, perhaps because this language to me, it seems um just unclear and perhaps over overly broad. Um uh I mean the the broadest statement is simply you know
the commission is is is here after you know its purpose is to protect human rights to the town of Ammeris residents period and then down below it spells out what but this this list of things um discrimination bigotry
hatred oppression um I don't know does anyone else have the problem that I have which is that you know just from a meaning sense. Um it's not all clear what this is supposed to be doing. Um that's my concern, but
maybe it's best to believe it until the lawyers are here and we can have a more detailed discussion. I don't know. But that kind of language seems way way overly broad and and very difficult to define and to determine what it actually means. Len,
>> um there's a part of me, George, that um likes the simplicity of a single word because uh human rights has regularly been redefined by law, >> right? >> Uh on a, you know, probably almost annual basis.
Unfortunately, lately it seems like it's gone the wrong direction. Um but that's a political statement. Um so it the question I would have is anything that anything beyond that including freedom from and so
>> it's not just it's not just the simple uh or it's not just simple words uh it's not just microaggression etc. the whole thing, >> the whole the language you have difficulty with um and questions about >> and your thought is that
>> we're not going to get answers to this or we'd like to get answers to this in conversation with the with our attorneys? >> Yes, absolutely. >> Okay. Um I read the second paragraph. Commission strives to ensure that all
persons enjoy equal opportunity to participate in local affairs, including access to housing, employment, education, public accommodation, and town services. No person shall be denied any rights guaranteed by federal, state, or local law, and any ground regardless
of nationality, race, da da da da. Um, that seems a little closer to Okay, the point is we need the lawyers to weigh in here. All right. Did I capture your questions and concerns clearly? Because this again, when we send this off, I want to make sure they're addressing the
the questions that you had. >> So, the language seems overly broad. Um, some of the terms seem to lack any clear definition. Um, and Lynn's concern, which is mine, is to what degree does this open up the town to liability given what we see as those concerns.
>> And the lawyers will have an answer to that. >> Great. Um, Lyn, before I go to you, I did realize that when I pulled over this purpose statement, it says as defined below, but I hadn't pulled over the definition that they had included. So, I just pulled that over and we can finagle this if we don't want it to be defined
below, but rather to be defined in the statement. We can deal with that. Um, but I just wanted to add this in because it was in the initial uh was in the memo under >> So, in other words, in this case,
They're not granted by any state. Then who who is defining? I mean, when somebody says something is inherent, >> right? >> That is even more gray. >> I could be wrong, but this might be one of the ones that's pulled from the UN
Declaration of Human Rights. Um, >> right. Right. >> Just because I remember talking about this in other contexts. Um, but let me look through to make sure if it's I don't think it was spelled out anywhere, but >> because clearly if if if if a state does
not recognize um what we or many of us would consider to be basic inherent human rights, that doesn't mean they aren't basic inherent human rights. Um it is a rather thorny philosophical question. Um but I think the human rights declaration was written at a time
when um some very basic inherent human rights were being ignored or violated all around the world and this was an attempt then by states that simply didn't respect them. Um and so I think that was part of the driving force behind this. Um anyway again I think
we're need it's a good question. We need the lawyers to weigh in. But I at least on one level um I would make the case and I assume the human rights commission would make the case that that on in some sense human beings possess certain basic human rights irrespective of what their
particular political system happens to grant them or recognized at any given time. um you know, African-Americans had basic human rights even in a time when they were not respected or by law by the state is is I think the basic argument
there. So, there's something to this, but it would be helpful to have the lawyers weigh in with us. >> Something else that was in the initial memo that I just dropped in because again, I did this really quickly, uh was that they had their purpose statement, but then they also had a mission
statement. Uh and it was the mission is to ensure so it starts starts here. >> Um I think that there's because we're kind of combining we I I think we would be combining this into one purpose statement.
We'll want to and this so it gets a little redundant but we can word smith it. >> Okay. Um, let me actually move this to the closest similar paragraph so we can take a look.
Um because I think these three are pretty similar, >> right? They could be they could be combined into a single paragraph. Yeah. >> And again, it would be helpful in doing that to have some advice from the attorneys on what kind of language or we
should try to avoid or what kind of language can be problematic. >> Yeah. All right. Let me >> if we words now, we have no idea. So, >> okay. All right. So, um >> below. Okay. Um, all right. Let's talk through the
charge piece then. >> Yeah. >> Or the like charge elements. Um, so I'm going to focus on the new ones so that we're capturing questions that we might have for the lawyers as we go through. Let's take a second, read
through, and then let me know if you have questions or comments. So, we have I'm sorry, you probably answered this and I didn't hear it. We have two sets of numberings here under the commission shell.
>> Yeah, we focus on the second one. This first one is what's currently in the bylaw. >> The second one is um from the proposed changes. >> Okay. All right. >> I feel like those are the ones we should really focus on, >> right? Okay.
>> And I can delete the first four that first one from the original by lock if it's confusing. >> I don't at the moment. >> Okay. >> You just leave it. But just to know. Um you might just put old bylaw. >> I added it in a comment, but I will um >> just you know, >> I'll add it in the text.
>> Yeah. Just Yeah. But now we know. Thank you. >> I should say current by it is our current by >> current. Yes. Exactly. Thank you. Right. I mean item two, promoted understanding of the human rights issues within the town and surrounding areas.
What does that mean? Is that like you know Hadley? Is that Worcester? Is that Massachusetts? I mean, yeah, we should look, it's not a human rights issue, but Hadley saying something about Ammeris values, I got
concerns about where does this extend to. >> So, promote understanding human rights issues issues by working with non- NGO human right organizations through education organization and community events, conferences, public speaking programs, educational panels, celebrations, and other committee
actions. Okay. I just don't know what other surrounding areas what they mean by that. >> Okay. Okay. Resource. >> Um, I had a question. Actually, let me I'll back up. My on the first one, I had
a question. Who are they recommending this to? Um, I felt like that could be clarified a bit whether it's just Yeah, I had a question about that. Um, second question I had was in this one. This is kind of a logistical question. In the
bylaw, they outline that the DEI director is the director of human rights. And so they have a separate title. Um, and I just want to clarify whether or not that is a that we need to specify that in the charge somewhere if
we're not using her actual title, unless her title's changed without me knowing. Um, clarify that is. >> Yeah. I mean, you could be vague and just say the person who serves in the capacity of
human rights director or whatever something. >> Yeah. >> That stays vague so that if the title changes, you don't have to change the >> I mean again the language is is problematic. I'm still stuck in one. um
recommend programs, initiatives to promote human rights, comma, diversity, comma, inclusion, comma, awareness, comma awareness of what? Um, and anti-discrimination. I I assume they're not promoting
anti-discrimination. Or are they? Um, yes, I guess. I guess that's what it means. >> Well, they're promoting anti Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. That's But what does awareness mean? >> Awareness of what? awareness of of human rights, I guess.
>> Uh so there there's a tendency here to simply create, you know, railroad train sentences that just have words that I think we need to to try and and get some clarity on and and hopefully some precision. Um we're not going to do it
now, but and it's not a lawyer question. I think it's a question of from the the commissioners um what they're trying to say. Yeah, I'm gonna I'll send this to the the the commission as well. And I know Ronnie's here, but I'm sure that she doesn't want to answer all these
questions on behalf of the commission. So, I'll send this with the questions to her. And I'll clarify uh before we end on this topic, I'm going to want to go through and just highlight and write in the question for KP Law on the ones that we want them to
address um or for committee so that we're not getting in a situation where KP Law is trying to explain to us who we should be promoting events to or or the like. >> So, normally when we think of these, we look at each one as as sort of an action. Mhm.
>> So one is an action to recommend and promote. >> Yep. >> The next is another promotion of something. The third is to serve as a resource. The fourth is to provide a written report.
The fifth is another recommendation to for resolutions or policy statements um for adoption by the town council. Okay. All right. So I think the other thing is as we go through this, make sure we're
clear as we can be on what each item is is saying they shall do in what broad category of action. Um so examine, encourage, recommend, provide a written report, serve as a
resource. These seem like, you know, generally speaking, identifiable kinds of activities. it uh I did wonder whether or not the report belongs here. It kind of disrupts the con the
um >> whether it should be down below >> under the under the report section. Yes. Right. Right. Right. So that should be moved probably. >> Um okay. All right. Uh,
again a question about surrounding areas in two. Um, three. >> Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm just pasting it. >> Okay. >> So, serve as a resource.
>> Are you on this one? >> Yeah. I guess I I'm I don't want to jump around. I'm start I'm trying not to do that. So, we were on two, now we're on three. >> Well, do we get are we good on two? I think that George I think that your point is that one and two could possibly be combined and more and
and I know that you're concerned about the level of of breadth um of some of these, but I these two are very similar to me, right? So I think that I'm going to I'm going to presume an educated presumption
is that the HRC used to be responsible for a lot of events and in recent years they sought to kind of rein that in a little bit. Um and so I think that this one is taking care of the events portion of the role even though it's much
smaller now. Um and this one is more of other people's supporting the work of others. This is like internal although they're just recommending. So yeah, I think that these probably could be combined. >> One and two. >> Yeah.
>> Under the broad category of events, outreach, promotion is what you're thinking. >> Yeah. I don't know the exact wording of it, but Okay. All right. Um >> okay.
Okay. >> But but I think that's something to play with cuz they're very I think they're very similar. >> Okay. >> Okay. Anything else on one or two? All right. Let's go to three.
serve as a resource to the town council and town manager and human rights to the feel like this needs a comment not an and we are not the same body town council town manager and human rights director with this respect to issues
that challenge any individual or group's enjoyment of their basic human rights in town I think that one of the one of the sticky spots that we found ourselves in for is char when we write charges we want to
make sure that everyone has the same expectation >> and understanding and I I think that this is wr my mind this is written clearly as they are a resource >> available >> I want to make sure that we're not
accidentally letting a commission down by setting an expectation that they feel they're supposed to be guiding ing the council versus serving as a resource. So, I think this is actually very good language about
to address that. But I'm curious if folks one know like understand what I'm trying to say. >> Um, and two think that this language is addressing or if we need to make it more clear of like the the council, the town manager and the human rights director can seek out that support from this
group, >> right? I can turn to them um in a situation in which an individual group's enjoyment is being >> but are not >> right >> obligated to follow recommendations from this group that aren't within like the other the perview of the group.
>> Right. Right. >> I think it's fine. >> Okay. >> We moved the written report part somewhere else. >> New number four recommend. Oh, and I added here. I I guess it's here, but
I wanted to again I think I I think I I worry about accidentally like promising people something we can't give them. So, if the double recommend it doesn't make sense, I can take it out.
>> Uh Anna, I I share that. I mean in many ways I have to say I think every committee in town is available as a resource to the council uh to the town manager and to staff.
But if it sets up an expectation that somehow or another therefore you know, they have to formally present us with something.
I I don't know. I just am concerned that to signal out a committee, any one committee, and say they should serve as a resource when, you know, as far as I'm concerned, the planning board is a resource to the council.
>> Um, that kind of thing. So it it almost sets up a situation where they feel like they have a special status and that you know other committees don't and I you know depending on what the issue
is >> you know if we want to know about water issues then we go to other committees. So I think yeah I don't mind the notation of availability to serve as
a resource. I agree with you that any committee can be a resource. Um, I want to go back and look at the TP the transportation and parking commission and the uh persons with disabilities commission for persons with disabilities
to see how that is framed because I do think this is one of the ways that I look at a commission and a committee a little bit differently, right? And so I think I added in here upon the request of just to kind of make it clear. I
don't know that it's I don't see a harm in adding it in um or in having it in here. Sorry, I I didn't add it, but in having it in here, >> I think if I remember correctly, one of the driving um forces behind this whole
process has been a sense by members of the commission that they feel either they I think they're struggling to have a clear sense of what their job is, >> right? Um, and I think what they're trying to do here is is to to defi
define that as clearly as possible. And I think we're hoping to help in that process, but also give them a sense that um that not only they but the community has a clear sense of what they exist for and what they can and cannot do. >> Um, and I think one of the things that
um they again I'm speaking for them and I what grounds do I have? But my sense is that they they see themselves as a resource and perhaps even see it as an underutilized resource perhaps. But so I think that's why this is here um as as
sort of putting everyone on notice that this is you know that we exist and and we we can be consulted. So I don't see I agree with Anna. I don't see any harm in doing it. I think Lynn is correct that in in a broad sense, it's true of all committees and commissions that they are
resource for us. Um, but I think with the adding of the language Anna has here, um, we can probably let this stand. I wanted to share. I had been looking at other places uh and how they
handled their um sorry how they did how they how their human rights commissions functioned. And I thought that um I know that we love when we compare ourselves to Cambridge, but uh I thought
that Cambridge had a really interesting they're focused on housing. that's pretty clear from their website um that their HRC has really picked kind of a lane to to to stick with. >> Mhm. >> Um but I thought it was a helpful for me it was a helpful reference point to see
how other HRC's kind of function. Um, and so I thought this piece was particularly like they have one, they have their own rules of procedure, which is what I imagine the the procedures outlined in the prior bylaw will turn
into for our our HRC. They'll have their own kind of rules of procedure. Um but and and what is interesting about theirs is that they have two bylaws that are there or their ordinances that the commission is
responsible for enforcing >> enforcement. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it's a different way but when we think about what you said George I I think I struggled with that question too of like how do we make sure that they understand or have a really clearly delineated
purpose? And so for what it's worth, I found it helpful to look through and I I think it's something that if this body decides eventually to recommend if the town council says, "Hey, maybe it makes more sense to have what were they a human rights ordinance that we then
enforce that this body enforces then then they can come to that. But I think the resource piece here, I don't know. I I think that having upon the request of kind of adds in a little bit of protection and I I can see that I could see this commission shifting their
their not their purpose but their procedures as they go. That was a long- winded way of saying there's a lot of interesting ways that people have handled this question in the past. >> You're saying Cambridge in particular their commission has focused it on housing. >> Their commission seems very focused
based on my preliminary look very focused on housing. >> Okay. and housing discrimination. They got the different community folk. I mean, yeah. >> Although they do site their human rights bylaw. >> So, they do they they have the a human
rights bylaw. Um and and that's the this is >> so it seems to me that it's everything that we're we're talking about plus housing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's not it's just Right. Right. I think this is my interpretation of the
the bylaw they have because it's much more extensive is really different city. Um you know I think their their bylaws are uh eight times longer than ours their ordinances are. Um so I I still don't
think it's >> that piece is necessary for us but >> it is interesting to look at. >> Okay. >> I think I took us down a tangent rabbit hole. Sorry. Um, and I'm gonna >> we're going to wrap this up at 7:30, just so folks know. >> Okay. All right. >> Um, so let's kind of push through just
to make sure that any other questions we have for KP Law are reflected on here. Um, and I I apologize. I didn't really keep us on track there. So, uh, >> so serving as a resource, how is five different from the broadly this broad
statement of being a resource to >> this is specifically resolution or policy statements. This is any issues that challenge an individual's or group's enjoyment. They could they could be
um they could be combined. >> Okay. Well, so that what it's saying is that that we we the commission could bring a resolution or policy statement on the human rights issue to the town council
for adoption. Correct. That's what it's saying. >> Yeah. >> Which is true of anybody. >> I was going to say anybody can do that, right? I mean, they need a council sponsor, but um Yeah, >> I don't really know what a policy statement is.
>> Um, >> I mean, I could probably figure it out, but that's unless someone else has a clear understanding unless they mean new policy. >> Um, >> so it actually says recommend resolutions. It doesn't see say Yeah, I
don't Yeah, I'm not quite sure what this is. Is it >> I I I'll delete this. I think for me my concern was really just about um I just wanted to make sure it was clear that it was it was a recommendation that
they'd need a counselor to sponsor it and all of that. So, but I think you know you're right that this is something that is a given for anybody. Um we kind of get into the same argument that Lynn was presenting for serving as a resource. So, we can keep playing with
it. I don't think that it's Right. >> Providing anything new in the church. >> Right. Okay. >> This one I have a question. I have I have a This one is >> six. >> Yeah. Uh no wait uh new number five. New
number five. >> New number five. Okay. >> It's the one highlighted here. So examine and provide comments on matters pertaining to the human rights of Ammeris residents as requested or on its own initiative. Um I'm I'm I'm having feelings swirling
about it. I'm I'm just thinking about what the are there existing I I assume that this means statements to the public first off um I don't believe that there and Athena maybe this is a clarifying question for you to that you might know the answer to
like are there any guidelines or rules governing what statements committees put out put out on behalf of a town commission. >> Um, you're you're asking if there are guidelines about statements
the committee would make on its own behalf. That's how I read this, but it doesn't actually just it just says examine and provide comments on matters pertaining to the human rights of Ammeris residents as requested or on its own initiative. I think that this basically means they're
allowed to talk to the press, right? Like in the broadest sense and beyond, which I I think is allowed generally. So, I don't know that we need it clarified in their charge. >> I read that differently. I think it would be odd to include um a specific
provision in a charge that says, "Yeah, go ahead and talk to the press." Um, I think it's more in my mind, and this is just my reading of it, in my mind, it makes more sense to interpret that as that they would have comments on
measures pertaining to human rights. So, anything that's coming to the council or that the town is undertaking that pertains to human rights, they could provide comments either to the council or the manager >> because it's examine and provide comments. That's so so you know it's
like what what is the thing that they're examining in my mind that matters it it makes sense for that to be measures. So recent example would be the the whole issue around ICE and IC's activity um in the community. Um and they would
certainly feel that it would part of their function or role would be to look into that which they have done and if appropriate provide some kind of statement um uh about you know what's going on and
what their views are you know I think is it really that sort of thing um or is it specifically related to measures that that the council or the town is I mean they sort of could comment on the town's policy statement if they wish, but that
would be Yeah. So, what's the I guess the question would be for the commission. Um, what exactly do they have in mind here? Um, we're not going to take it out necessarily, but we're trying to get clarity on what the intent is. In my mind, measures could could
mean, you know, something that the council would adopt or >> um you know, zoning that the council or >> right >> planning board is considering or >> so you're seeing it as as internal or specific to things that the town is
doing or the council is doing, not to broader wider issues outside of that. >> And I mean, it could, but but examine is >> I know Examine to me mean me read reads as though that there's a thing that they're examining and not like the state of
human rights in general. >> To me that means like a specific thing. >> Okay, >> that's my reading of that. It would be helpful I think to clarify that. >> Clarify. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Clarification. Okay. >> And if that's the case, then I think it should read measures, right? So, so um I
just added a comment here. Um I want to pause for a second. Council Lord, welcome. We uh are glad you're here. Can you hear us? And can we hear you? Yeah, >> we can. You're a little choppy though, just so you know. >> I'm sorry. I have really bad reception.
>> That was better. Wherever you were just standing was the sweet spot. >> Don't move. Don't move. >> Um, thank you so much for joining us. Um, so, okay, so I just wrote a comment here for HRC. Need clarity on what is intended by this. Does this mean
measures? So meaning they would provide comments on things like updates for example the sanctuary city bylaw or is this meant in the broadest sense of matters. So um we'll get some clarity there because uh Athena I appreciated your your reading of it.
>> I wonder if you want to take a moment and just bring counselor Lord up to date what we're actually doing here. >> Yeah. >> So maybe she's been president and she's already gotten the drift but if you want to just describe to her. >> Thank you very much. we're looking what we're looking at and what we're trying to do.
>> So, Councelor Lord, I tried to put together a really rough just copy paste version of a charge for the Human Rights Commission based on the memo that we received with the proposed updated bylaw. And what we're doing right now is going through it and adding in questions
that we have on the language for either the Human Rights Commission, the DEI director, or the um or KP Law, or all three. Um, and we're just cuz they'll be joining, I believe, at our next meeting, pending confirmation, but they've been
invited to our next meeting. Um, I haven't reached out to the HRC yet, but uh, and so hopefully we'll get some responses on on these questions. So, that's that's what we're looking at right now. Um, and again, really kind of a quick run through just because I want to get us done by 7:30 on this because
we've got some other things on the agenda. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. And thank you councelor Ryan for helping me to come back down from my rush through. Um let's go to number six here. Encourage attendance at panel
discussions, meetings, conferences, celebrations, and other educational or community events held by municipal or regional human rights committees, private or public corporations, organizations, high schools, or universities. I need to see how this is different from
this one. Number two. >> Right. Right. >> Very similar. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That might be again. So, yeah. >> It's also I'm just going to It's also very specific.
which I don't have a problem with if it's clear what how this you know this is focused on sort of this whole notion of engagement >> with the the larger world
>> and the first well I guess this the first one is more about promotion so one is about you know promoting And this the other is about engagement. Um if that makes any sense. And they
could be thought of as being two separate sort of broad activities. You could combine them perhaps but you also could perhaps keep them separate. >> Okay. >> Anyway. Yeah. >> All right. Okay.
serve as a forum >> for residents to make a report about concerns, complaints or questions of discrimination or unequal treatment of individual of individual or any activities which threaten the realization. I think an
individual would be um or in activities which threaten the realization of human rights in Ammerst or to tell their stories. Wait. Okay. residents to make a report about concerns, complaints or questions of discrimination or unequal treatment of
an individual or any activities which threaten the realization of human rights in Ammeris or to tell their stories so that victims and witnesses can feel safe and heard and so that the appropriate town, state or federal officials can investigate such reports, concerns,
complaints or questions. My my one of my concerns here is um again again when we think about what what are we guaranteeing here? Absolutely. This is what we want. >> If we put it in the charge and someone
goes to that body as a forum and does not feel safe or heard, are they then in violation of their charge? And maybe I'm overthinking this, >> but that again I I worry about declaring declaring how someone should feel as a
result of something is a tricky it feels like a tricky grounds. You can aspire to it, but you can't guarantee it, >> right? >> So maybe in their in their procedural rules or in their in their specific description that they will be in control
of, they can put some of this language in there. But here perhaps the the best strategy would simply to say that that this is a forum for residents to make a report to serve as a forum about to make a report about their
concerns, complaints or questions related to issues of discrimination or unequal treatment. Um and the rest would be aspirational. Um I mean
>> I think this Yeah. Yeah. >> Can a body serve as a forum >> or does the body provide >> a forum? >> That might be semantics. That's we can deal with that later.
>> Sorry. >> Okay. >> I think that as we're going through the next section, George, I I hear what you're saying. I think that um >> I just want this to be clear. I want it to be clear. >> Yeah. >> Um I mean it's really important that
this that we'd like this to be read. >> Absolutely. >> And and you realize that bylaws are often only read by by bodies like us, but we hope that this one in particular will be read. Yeah. And >> so we want to make sure that it is as
clear as possible and um obviously we want to make sure that it doesn't put the town in any position of liability. But I think clarity is important and maybe all this ultimately needs to be kept, but the way it's written at the moment, it it's it needs it needs some
help. I think >> um whether it goes some of it goes elsewhere or whether some of it gets into separate points. Um, but your concern, Anna, and I think it's also Linds is we can't we don't want this to promise more than it can deliver. Um,
and saying that people are going to be safe and we want people to feel safe and be heard. Um, but is that something that that we can promise as part of the charge? I don't know. But, um, this is a sentence needs
to be worked on. >> Okay. Um, I'm going to push us along a little bit just because I want to make sure we've got any other questions. Where appropriate, make referrals to appropriate bodies >> concerning any concerns. All right. So, there we have two examples of the same
words being used again. So, we just from the point of view of language, we'd like to tidy this up, but um, where appropriate, make referrals. Yeah. Can you officially refer a matter to
the Ammeris Police Department of Massachusetts State Police Department and have them be obligated to follow up? >> It's a very good question. I think that >> right. But here the the the goal is the
intention of the commission. >> Yeah. >> That when appropriate we are saying that we have the we are charged with or it's one of the actions we can take to
refer what we've heard to one or more of the following bodies. Is is that fair summary of what this is saying? >> Yep. Um and unless there's some kind of legal issue here, um language to that
effect is what nine should say and try not to say appropriate twice and concerning twice, etc., etc. But that that's quibbling. I think that's the intent here. Okay. So, we need just to find out if they can do it and and what what that
entails. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um, >> so here again we have it. Yeah, I'm sorry. >> I don't No, no, no. You're fine. My numbering just went wrong, but >> Yeah, it's nine, I guess. Now, yeah, I'm looking at the old document, but
>> you're fine. >> My eyes aren't good enough to see the screen. Unless I put my face, see, if I do this, I can read it, >> right? >> Trying to avoid that. >> There's probably no public out there watching, but I could terrify them if suddenly. We do have a member of the
public and it's always recorded >> screen. It's like what's he doing >> and we know that we've got a >> we know that we have people who who tune in after the fact. >> Exactly. So it just for the public sake when I do this is because I'm trying to >> I'm trying to read the screen but
anyway. So I'm looking at my screen. >> I'm gonna switch real quick to make sure I didn't miss something at the end of this because it says and and I think that this was just be based on how it was written but yeah. Okay. It was just cuz they were doing their list that way. All right.
>> So Tim is um again seems to be maybe repetitive. It's specifically focused on the town manager. So maybe that's the point. This is about the town manager specifically. Um but my sense is earlier that that's he's already been mentioned or the town
manager has been mentioned. But this is specifically working with the town manager on matters pertaining to human rights and education and serving as a forum. These are things that already been mentioned. So I guess the question is why is the town manager being
>> singled out here? Is that important? Isn't it already been done? Um so is this repetitive? Maybe the answer is no because we haven't really focused you know this is specifically about the town manager but my sense is that that that's already
been touched on but um I mean Tom man where's Tom managers recent I mean three I mean old numbering three Tom managers mentioned um >> I don't know otherwise maybe that's the
only other place >> um okay last piece Right. >> While the commission may report, refer and render >> recommendations. So this spells out the limits or a certain limit. Um,
yeah. Yes, it does. >> But does it need to be here? Um, maybe. >> Oh, I think it does because this is where I think you're communicating the limits of this group to actually perform many of the things that people
would want them to do. Okay. So, the commission may report, refer, or render recommendations on certain issues involving the town, >> including concerns. That's capitalized because it's defined somewhere in this document as set forth.
>> I don't think so. >> That's usually the procedure, right? It's capitalized. >> Yes. But it wasn't. I don't It might have been in their their last >> anyway. Concluding concerns is set forth in and then complaint resolution procedure by of this file of that be changed. The committee does not have the authority.
Yeah. So maybe just uh some of that may be stricken because of the bylaw reference, but it does not have the authority to subpoena witnesses or take sworn testimony or the power to adjudicate or mediate the resolution of disputes between individuals or entities.
>> It feels like a KP law ad. All right. >> Might be KP law. Well, maybe we'll find out at the next meeting. Yeah. Um, so it's 7:36 and I want to say I know that I added this to the packet
late. So, um, I will send this, we don't have a meeting for a while. We don't have a meeting until April 14th. So, um, while I want to get this to KP Law, the HRC, and the DEI director as soon as possible, um, if you have additional questions, you know that you are not to
put them in this document. You are to email them to me individually. Um, and I can include them in the memo or in the draft that I send to KP Law, the HRC. I would like to send that by Friday. Um, that's a pretty quick turnaround. I can
stretch to Monday if you need me to. Um, so but but sooner rather than later just because I know that everybody's busy. I did not look at the HRC meeting schedule to see when they meet next, but um I'd love to make sure that we've got our our
ducks in a row. Um, this is in SharePoint, so you can revisit again. Please do not comment in SharePoint uh or or don't reply to anything. Just don't touch the SharePoint one. um download it and add your comments separately and then send that to me.
When in doubt, only talk to me. >> Okay. >> Um All right. >> Questions. Wow. >> Did Ronnie Did Ronnie have any comments she'd like to make? And was not here.
>> She was not here at the beginning. Um, Ronnie, we are we're going to move on soon, but I would invite you to make a comment if you'd like to at this time. Go ahead and thank you for joining us. >> Thanks. I just want to say thanks and
let you know that um, a lot of this was written by KP Law. So, I look forward to the discussion and I love the direction you're going in to make it all more concise. It would help us a lot. Um, I I'm looking forward to I've taken
detailed notes. I will pass these on to the members of the HRC and we look forward to the next discussion and thank you so much for moving it forward. That's really what we've been wanting. >> Thank you. And and I'll send you I will send you a copy of this and any other
questions that come in. Um Ronnie, are you the the solo chair of the HRC right now? >> Unfortunately, I am. It's because nobody wants to be the co-chair and we're working on that now. We need to recruit new people because I'm ready to step down, but
>> there nobody wants to even be a co-chair. >> You know, uh I am chair of G for not a dissimilar reason. >> Um all right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Uh so I'll send these to you Friday or Monday. Um is that does that work for you?
>> I will pass it on. Thank you very much. >> Perfect. Thank you. and thank you again for joining us. Okay, we are um going to move on to the next item on our agenda. Uh and that is the bylaw review
committee vacancies. So again, Athena, I'm sorry. I realize that it's really hard to start from a blank document. Um, and so I tried to pull together some things for us to discuss, but the first thing we're going to need to do is to
approve the vacancy posting. Hang on, stand by one second. And I want to thank Athena. I was going to say I want to Athena thanks um for creating this for us.
So, let's take a minute to do a double check. Make sure everything is all good to go. I use the same format that the committees used in the past. The committee shell section is pulled right
from the charge and then updated the links and everything. >> My only nitpicking thing is that I think the size changes, but that's really on me and not you. There we go. >> So, really good. So, can I see it? Okay.
Yeah. >> So, we've got the purpose and the the charge pieces in here. Bonus bullet. Um, and then it'll link to the charge. Invite them to fill out a calf. >> If they have questions, talk to me. That
is my email. Look, we're following the rules and here's a link to find those rules. >> Seems fine. >> Okay. So, uh I'm going to entertain.
Is there a motion? Wait, I wrote my motions out ahead of time. Um is there a motion to approve the vacancy notice for the 2026 bylaw review committee? >> So moved. you >> a second.
>> Thank you. I'm going to call the vote. Uh, councelor Ryan, >> I griemer >> I. >> Councelor Lord >> I. >> Thank you. And I am an I as well. So the
vote is four in favor, none opposed, one absent. All right. Um, and this is now approved. This is not something that needs to go to the council. So, no recommended motion
language for council. Done. So, I want to talk briefly then um going on to our next item here, which is the selection guidance and interview questions. We obviously don't have an applicant pool yet, but we'll touch briefly on kind of maybe what
we're looking for in terms of a robust applicant pool. Um, so that we can keep an eye out as we're as we go forward. Selection guidance here. Um, I pulled from charter review and finance. Um, I
did get one comment from a counselor, but it was regarding interview questions. So, this was just a brief brief draft. Um, take a second, look over it. There's nothing really exciting in here. And you can see that I I I pulled a blank
because I didn't want to Oopsies. Uh, didn't want to do all the work here and have people think I was just picking and choosing what I wanted. Let me know once you've read through and if you have any thoughts. Obviously, we
can't leave these blank. So, uh ideally, you'll have some thoughts. So, are you looking for to fill in the blanks for the past? We will need to fill in the blanks. We also don't need these statements. If if we keep these in here, we have to fill in the blanks. We
don't need to keep these in here. I think there's redundancy here. So, I'm more looking for what you want to remove. if you want to fill in the blanks or what you want to add. >> So, what's the difference between prior community engagement outside of town
government and prior experience in community engagement and outreach? remembering back to the council or the go committee when we wrote both of these separately for charter review. It was because the charter review committee where I pulled this from had such an
emphasis on community outreach and because um we wanted folks who because they're two different things, right? like you may be you may be enga-a involved in a community organization uh but that's not
necessarily the same as engaging the community if that makes sense. >> Um if we want to just briefly look at the charge here we did talk a little bit about members.
We did talk a little and so that's why I pulled it over. Um >> it's fine. >> Wait, sorry. So again, I don't know if this one is as as necessary in this charge given that it's operating slightly differently. Uh it was
something that we were pushing for in in charter because of the scope or the magnitude I guess of that hard to see what Yeah. Why would this be relevant really? >> Well, and they can do it. It it doesn't mean if we take it out, they can still do it if they see a place to do it, but
otherwise I don't think it needs to be there. Okay. So, took that out. Um, we can move this up so that it at least is next to the >> inside and outside of local government. >> I don't know if people agree with me on
this. Um, but I'd like to put emphasis first on what maybe the order doesn't matter. >> I >> but um I'd like to put emphasis on what in particular we're looking for. We're always looking for demographic
diversity. Um, we don't want a body composed of five white males or five whatever. Um, and so we're looking for of diversity. We're looking for diversity of life experience and skills where possible. But again, maybe it's
just me, but I think with a body like this, we're primarily looking for people who have uh some kind of, you know, proven experience of community engagement, ideally with the town, town service, town boards, town committees,
um and and ideally some kind of prior interest in or experience with municipal government operations and policy language. Um, we don't ideally we'd like not to have five individuals, however diverse and with lots of different life
experiences who have little or no knowledge or experience with um the the complexities of, you know, municipal government. We're not expecting all five to be like that, but I think we'd be
concerned if we had nobody applying who had some kind of experience like that. So, um, maybe you all disagree and you feel like any five, you know, well-intentioned citizens can get up to speed fairly quickly. Um, and that may
be true, but in terms of what we're looking for, it would seem to be not so much training or expertise. Um, you know, what would that mean?
um but just some kind of past experience or knowledge of municipal government. >> So I want to know I think this committee will need to decide whether or not we are going to try to order these in a
priority order or we do it alphabetically. Um and I remember I think we had this discussion at charter as well and we ended up listing them alphabetically because different members were placing emphasis on different items. Uh and so we were and and the way that we're looking at this is that no
one candidate is expected to have necessarily most of these right like they this is the the body itself will include people that have uh and so I think that's the the way that I'm trying to frame this or
the way that I I would like the committee to look at this is saying when we have our our committee it as a body, not any one individual has all of these things or most of these things, as many as these things as we
can get. Um, so I I think that yeah, I I guess those two framing pieces are are important of of are we going to prioritize or not? And that is up to this committee. Personally, I would I think that it we should say alphabetical order and specify that. Um because
ideally the committee is bringing all of these to the table at the end of the day in in one way or another. >> But what do you think Judge because I I don't know if we're on the same page about that which is fine but I want to hear your thoughts. >> Well I I feel that that in every um committee or commission that we are
trying to form that the first two items listed here are given. They need to be stated and they need to be observed but they're givens. What in reaching out to the public and asking them to consider service on this
body I think from just a you know communications perspective and a clarity perspective it would be um helpful to emphasize some of the things that you know make this body stand out as opposed
to all other bodies. and the first two items don't um now uh so that's my thought um I would you know this is a bylaw review committee
and so in a bylaw review committee what in particular are you looking for um and the answer might be doesn't matter any five thoughtful reasonable citizens no matter what their life experience no matter what their background no matter or what their
interests are perfectly capable of serving on this body. And so what we're looking for are just five, you know, people who represent the diversity of the town. >> So what if we >> That could be what we want. I It's not what I would say, but that's, you know,
I'm only one person. >> No, I hear you. >> Yeah. >> So I think there's It sounds like we're talking about two pieces here. And part of me is wondering if we break it out and have a statement at the end that's not necessarily one of the
bulleted items, but is still in here saying the, you know, the the final committee shall or we seek for the final committee to include representation across all districts and to demonstrate demographic diversity including racial,
economic, gender, and age, generational because there's also a piece where we don't know some of this information, right? We we want a lot. We want these things, right? >> We don't >> these are not always either obvious. We don't want to assume them and we don't ask them. Uh and we shouldn't always ask
them. So I think what if what about >> Yeah. Yeah. making this a sentence at the end and not having it be a bullet point that is kind of I think getting at what you're saying of of yes this is a given for all committees whereas these are specific
for this one >> for the bylaw review is how would that feel >> well that's kind of what I'm saying the question is yeah but how do you want to present so um and you'd like to have experience and then demographic and
>> well no I sorry that was just for purposes of explaining it to the fine body. >> Okay. >> Um >> the final bit would just be a statement. Um >> bylaw review committee >> uh no >> ideally um >> yeah ideally
>> you can't say it will. I mean five individuals that's going to be pretty hard to do. >> Sometimes we say like we seek to um like in the charges we often say >> that's nice. We'll seek to. Yeah. speak
to um so so why don't we say okay uh um >> I mean this is reflect or will reflect we'll seek ideally we'll reflect or we'll seek to reflect u demographic diversity um you know representation across town
districts and variety of life I mean I don't know about variety of life experiences skills and occupations but um Yeah, I in a way these are all questions. What this reminds certainly me and perhaps all members of the committee of are
these are the questions we want to be thinking about and asking um as we deliberate in recommending people to serve on this body. And so it's good to have it here in black and white. Um but
perhaps yeah at the as aspirational for all bodies this should perhaps be just a given and stated but at the top we would spell out the kinds of things that we're you know looking for in in
membership if we can get it. So the jail committee seeks to build a to build a bot committee which >> this isn't right. This isn't right. Yeah. It's just it's incredible. >> Well, you could you could words Well, do you need us to vote on this tonight? Is
that what you'd like? >> I don't need you to. Um, we did. >> Yeah. >> We cannot Oh gosh. What's the order of operations here? We cannot declare the pool sufficient until we have uh selection guidance. >> Right. And you need you need to post a
vacancy notice for some things to do, right? >> Yeah. So, we can't vote it tonight. Thanks, >> Right. Right. So >> I can remember like PEMDOS from middle school but I apparently can't remember this. Um >> so past service related to municipal
government and policy are other relevant areas. I don't know about training or expertise. Anybody thoughts on that? Um is there any particular training or expertise we're looking for with a body like this? I think the issue that was very important for us in the past was we
did have a lawyer who actually had municipal government experience. >> Yeah. >> And we also had a former somebody who had actually been a town manager or a town administrator for a municipal government.
>> Mhm. So I mean if um maybe we in this case all we can say is municipal um legal experience desired or in or municipal
administrative experience desired. >> Are you saying instead of this sorry >> yeah that's I understand that >> we don't want to scare people off. Oh, >> no. We don't. >> We wouldn't say desire. I mean, we would I don't think desired would be again, this is something that we're not saying
everyone would have. >> Yeah, >> we're saying and but I think that there's a way >> I think one covers it. Um, >> yeah, maybe it does and just drop to >> unless people can think of any particular training or experience that
would be relevant here. >> Um, yeah. >> Yeah, I can. I mean, service on >> service on a town committee, especially a regulatory body, is going to be hugely helpful in looking at bylaws. >> If they served in the PRA in the past on
zoning or planning or concom bylaws and understanding kind of how they work in administrative practice. So, I think that there's a piece there that in my mind that would be past service related to municipal government. Can I uh clarify something just I want to make sure I understand this
correctly. Athena, they don't look at zoning bylaws. They only do general bylaws. Is that correct? >> That's correct. >> Okay. Either way, they've looked at bylaws. That's >> your point's well make well taken, Anna. I just want to be clear that they don't
look at zoning. >> Yeah, I'm uh Yes, thank you. My point was more of in their service on the zoning board, they've looked at zoning bylaws. So, they've been reading bylaws in kind of the weird way that bylaws are written and they would apply the skills that they've learned reading those
bylaws to reading something else. >> Why don't we say past service slashtraining slashexpertise in municipal government and policy or other related areas. >> So my question then is is it redundant
with this? I need to number these for the time being um so that we can keep them >> keep track. That's good. That's a good point. >> Um, and that's on me of going really confidently in the direction of where I wanted to go with that last statement, not having realized it's already down
here. >> Yeah. >> So, maybe this is not maybe it's just maybe it's just leave it there and it does double the ven diagram overlaps on past service related to municipal
government. could be service on a town board or committee or as an elected official, but it doesn't have to be. It could be >> I Yeah, I think you can get rid of five then. >> Then I think we need to specify I don't know that we can to be honest. I think that
>> I think we need to include the words town board or committee somewhere in here. Um I'm thinking about like you gave the example of we had someone who was a former town administrator Yeah, >> that's different from anything listed in
five technically, but is very valid. >> I don't know. I'm >> So, let's let's take our time. Well, well, why don't we say past service related to municipal government and policy including committee membership or you know service
on including service on town boards committees or as an elected official. Um, okay. Is is the wording that we're going to go with here municipal government and
policy? Policy felt really broad. I wrote it and I still felt like it was too broad. Um, or not. I don't know what I felt it was. It didn't feel right, but I'll write it in here so we can look
at it. And this is really similar. >> Yep. Although it's it is and it isn't. >> I mean you might have expertise are different. Sure. >> Who who has a degree in in uh or you
know some kind of academic background but has never actually uh served. >> You could have Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. >> I mean I think our our our last finance committee appointment is the prime
example of why this piece is important. demonstrated interest. >> Yes. >> Can be someone who's been really tapped in and paying attention without having attended everything or been appointed, excuse me. >> Right. Right. Yeah. We're not want We don't want to make it sound like you have to be someone.
>> So, why don't we keep them separate? There's not We're not trying to reduce to a minimum number here. Uh I think it actually strengthens us to have >> more clearly delineated pieces um so that folks can >> read these and see themselves in one or
more. So, um, again, I'm struggling in the difference between one and two, and I think you've already talked about it, but I didn't get it. Um, you in the first one, you're saying
we're looking for, you know, would like to find somebody who's had some actual service in municipal government, such as serving on a town board committee, or as an elected official. And I don't think you need other
relevant areas. I don't I don't think >> I agree. >> Yeah, that doesn't add anything. Um that's, you know, just that's that. Um but the first is about actually serving and I'm not sure that you need policy either really. Um past service related
to municipal government uh including but not limited to service on a town board committee or as an elected official. The second one is training or expertise in municipal government and policy
and give me an example and maybe you've given one I just missed it. got a lot of academics. >> You have a Yeah. I mean, you could have people with MPAs, you could have people with regional planning degrees. Um, >> we have a school of public policy. I mean,
you know, >> so training or expertise in municipal government and policy, that's where policy certainly fits. >> Um, again, I'm not sure what or comparable areas what that means, but maybe it does mean something. I don't know what it means here. I think this is one where it could be up to them to say,
"Hey, you know, my >> my municipal government policy, but I work for the federal government or I work." >> Sure. Exactly. >> Right. Yeah. Okay. >> Someone who teaches history and civics. They've got a lot of knowledge there. Like that's, you know, >> then three is demonstrated interest in
municipal government operations, policy, language. That's to cast a broader net for, you know, residents who've taken on or shown an interest in this in a way that's unusual but could be relevant here. >> So, quick question. >> How about how about the following? How do go back to two and just say training
expertise or or demonstrated interest >> and just and then take out >> and take out? Yeah. Three. >> I'm fine with that, but I don't feel like we really need to break them down. I mean, I don't think we need a shorter number for any specific
>> No, no. I I just there there's it takes away the issue of feeling some >> redundant. Okay. >> Um something that was in the last piece that I think we just deleted is it said policy language and in the P and everywhere else we just say policy or well here we just say municipal
government. Um is it policy language? Is it policy? Is it >> policy measures? It policy implies language implies a a broad set of skills. >> Okay. I wrote it and then I questioned
myself for like half an hour after. Um prior community engagement outside of town government. Is this something that helps the bylaw review committee? And if so, great. >> How Yeah. How does it um I mean yeah
>> I mean so for for me this piece depending on what the community engagement is they're going to see how our bylaws impact our community right so I do see this as being relevant depending on what the community engagement is but I think that if you
have someone who's been working uh in the community and seen the impact and effect of the way that our bylaws are existing, the way that our bylaws are written, they might have some really valuable insights that someone who say has only worked within that system might
not have seen. So, I do think that it's valid here to to look at community engagement. >> I think that's true. Um, we we certainly want this to be a broad a wide net. Um,
so we're we're open to and be interested in people who while they don't have any particular background in items one or two have been very much engaged in the community um in areas that might be relevant to
what this is about. >> Sure. >> Um how is that different from four? So experience prior community engagement might not include doing outreach. Um for me it
it's someone who works in a field where they are trying to do community outreach all the time is not the same as someone who is volunteering on the weekends at the survival center and sees the impact of
you know XYZ. I think they're two different things. They can overlap, but I don't think that they always do. And I I do worry that combining these professionalizes number three in a way that might not be helpful. Um because
I don't know, prior experience, community engagement, they read differently to me. I would advocate for keeping them separate. the prior community engagement outside of town government, prior experience in community engagement. Okay.
I think that I think it's prior experience in >> so I mean it would public outreach or in in outreach in community outreach I don't know. So one thing is you're engaged you're active in in various ways you know with whatever it might be uh in
in is areas outside town government but you also or maybe andor you also had experience in doing uh some kind of communications work or outreach in that I think four is about communication um and um engagement in the sense of you
know not you personally but trying to uh is that what you mean in other words Yeah, >> I'm not I'm not doing a great job putting my words together. So maybe we can sit with this just again because we can't approve it tonight. We can sit with this. >> Sure. Sure.
>> Um but any other Let's come back to these two if that's okay. >> Right. Right. That's fine. It's a good start. >> Any other comments before we wrap this particular portion up? >> Yeah. Are we missing anything else? I mean, I'm I'm It's late and we've been at
>> Take a look take a look at um I pulled what I thought was relevant from finance and and charter, but if there are other committees that you want to look at, um again, I didn't look at planning, border, zoning. Uh I didn't look at planning.
>> I only looked at those ones. So, please feel free to bring other suggestions to the next meeting where we discuss this. I'm absolutely open to that. when you think of the scope of our bylaws, it's you really looking for people who have a sort of breath
>> of experience. Um, >> yeah, >> it covers so much >> beyond just the specifics of bylaws and how they work. >> You're looking ideal for somebody who has >> Yeah. a fairly broad picture of things. >> Okay. Yeah,
>> I'm gonna move us along, but again, this is in the packet, so please Yeah, Athena. Sorry to jump in right at the end here. There were a couple of areas that you wanted the by that this committee wants or the the council because it's voted the charge at this point wanted the
bylaw review committee to consider. One was um to review bylaws with a climate lens and the other was to review the bylaws with an equity lens and that neither of those are addressed in these >> criteria. So I was just raising that as a point that you might want to consider.
>> Thank you. Thank you. Um, okay. We will come back to to this at a later meeting. Um, I'm going to push us past the interview questions and applicant pool obviously at this point. Um but these likely just going forward
at least the applicant pool will likely be on future agendas uh once we approve that or once we get that posting up um so that we can keep discussing it and maybe magically get there really really quickly to where we have a a
sufficient applicant pool. I do want to move us briefly in our last 20 minutes here to our review of the rules of procedure. We did have a request for review of rule 8.2 too. Uh, and this is the piece. This came from Council
President Hani. If you don't remember, this was sent a while ago. So, take a minute and and reread the email, but and then we'll talk about it. So, let's start with do we have any comments on this or clarifying questions that we want to send back to Mandy?
>> I have a question for Lynn um given her, you know, extensive experience in this matter. Do you have have you experienced the same issue that the current president is claiming his case? >> Um >> in your time is as
>> yes and no. Uh I want to hear what Athena has been part of these conversations much more recently. So let's have Athena speak to this. >> Sure. Okay. Um, so, and I don't want to speak for you, Lynn, but our our practice in the past had often during
your term as president had often been to put financial orders on a council agenda even though you were allowed to refer them automatically. And what had happened was that in many cases and this
is specifically pertains to you know large borrowing articles where we need to prep prepare documentation that the council has followed every required step and rule and um provision in the charter in order to in order for the town to
borrow money. Um, one of the requirements was that we we document when uh the financial order was first presented to the council. And we were able to do that because we had placed those financial orders on the council agenda even though we were allowed the
council president was allowed to refer them automatically and she didn't have to. Um, so what we discovered was that we really needed to put them on the agenda. And so what um Mandy and I had discussed and Mandy was the one to officially propose the rule change was
just to remove the rule to avoid the situation where something was referred automatically and we needed to show that it had been presented to council and we couldn't. >> Okay. The only question that came up for me um on this one, Athena, and that is
when um the budget is presented regardless of whether we have a meeting on May 1st, it has to be referred. It has to go forward on May 1st. >> The budget is sent, it's released and
sent to council and post published on the bulletin board on May 1st. >> Okay. And then and then the presentation happens at the first council meeting after >> after that, right? And and you're saying at that point we would >> we would also vote on the referral to
finance. >> This wasn't for the budget. It was for borrowing. So it was it was some of the larger borrowing orders that came up um where I needed to provide a bunch of documentation. And one of the pieces of documentation that and this, you know,
it wasn't until um it came up that our financial adviser was asking for documentation because the bank that we're borrowing from is asking for documentation of all these things. And one of the things is that initial presentation. >> I I have no objection to this.
>> So this this would make life a little easier for uh the council clerk and u so I'm supportive of anything that does that. So, >> yeah, I I have no problem with this, but thank you. Uh you're you're right. I basically would
>> always make sure we voted on a referral. >> Um Okay. So, >> so, uh what we want to do is put this forward to the council as a motion for a rule change. Do rule changes have to go to the council for two meetings in a
row? >> No, it does need a twothirds vote, I think. Okay. Uh, so I'm I'm >> sorry, before you do it, I have I have a motion language ready for you if you want it. Um, but I just wanted to make sure I've summarized our conversation
for my report really quickly accurately. So you're saying just to make sure I'm understanding myself as a counselor, the simplicity of this the on the staff as well as the fact that we haven't really utilized
this rule that often in to its true nature, >> right, >> is what is is the main are your main reasons, Lyn and George, is that you you're concurring with that and councelor Lord as well due to how moving. Okay. Um, so the Lynn, when you're I'm happy to have you
make the full motion. It is I can keep this up. >> Oh, basically to recommend >> to recommend >> the town council >> that we delete council rule of procedure 8.2C in its entirety and reletter the
remaining section and the rules of procedure 8.2 appropriately. And >> I second that motion. >> Great. Um, let's take a vote. Councelor Lord. Uh, we'll come back to
>> we'll come back to her at the end and just double check. Uh, councelor Ryan >> I. >> Lynn >> I >> I'm an I. Councelor Lord. We will mark her absent for this vote. So, three in favor, none opposed, two
absent. Athena. And just for agenda planning purposes, do you believe uh the committee is going to recommend any other rule changes or should we that we should group together with this one or should we go ahead with this one? And >> I think we should go ahead with this one. But yes, I think we have other rule
changes coming. >> Excuse me. I am the chair, Miss Ma'am. Sorry. >> Maybe she knows something you don't know. >> I I have not received what I have asked Athena is for folks to send me any proposed rule changes. I have yet to
receive any and I don't want to delay this one. So, I think that we should um we should move ahead with this one for all the reasons Lynn said. >> Plus, the fact that we were just given a referral of a ton of things that could end up being rule changes.
>> Oh, that's what you're thinking about. >> That's what I'm thinking about. >> Yep. >> I forgot all about that. >> Yep. >> It's a bad dream. I just I thought it was a bad dream, but it's true. I every time >> it really happened. >> And then I was so grateful when someone
was like, "Let's not send this one to go, but I was like, that was the one I wanted." >> All right. Um, >> you didn't want the one I sent us. Okay, I'm right there. >> I don't think I don't remember anymore. That's I I actually was going to email Mandy and was like, I need them all in one place because I have lost them at
this point. >> No, sure. >> Um, all right. So, we've got that one faster than I anticipated it going. Um, but I will not drag us back to bylaw review committee for now. We will move on. I do want to uh get a motion to approve the minutes. I will I'll make
it. I move to approve the minutes of March 10th, 2026. Is there a second? >> Second. >> And I'm going to call the vote. Uh, Lynn >> I councelor Ryan >> I. >> I am an I. Councelor Lord, are you with
us? >> I. >> Awesome. Thank you. All right. The minutes are approved. I made that motion. Lynn seconded it. Right. Uh and we >> Yep. >> four in favor, none opposed, one absent. Okay,
folks. Coming up on our docket, um I don't know if you noticed, but just as was mentioned, a whole bunch of a whole bunch of fun stuff was just sent our way. Um, I've yet to I haven't received the word version yet, but I know that's
coming. Um, however, at our next meeting, I am planning to tackle two big things in the hopes that we at least are getting them one mostly done and the other at least started and that is the human rights commission charge. We're hoping to move through that. Uh I don't
know if we'll depends on what comes back from KP Law and HRC and um Pamela in terms of where we get with that. I I really can't confidently say that we will finish it next meeting if the comments are that extensive uh and need
muddling through. um and bylaw review committee. Uh we've received letters via email that I will be putting in the packet as per the request of the senders from both the I'm going to mess up the name of the police officers union uh or
police union as well as from the CSSJC. Um so I will be putting both of those letters in the packet and we're going to start talking about that. >> That's not by review. You mean um res >> I meant resident oversight. I'm so sorry. Yeah, thank you. I don't know what happened to my brain today, but it's
gallon. >> Anna, you're you're hoping to take up or you're planning to take up RO next meeting. >> We need to start talking about it and and the reality is we've got so much coming on charter that I really want us to be able to focus on clear. >> So, I'd like to clear the deck. Yeah.
And so, I I really it's not going to be possible to f >> in the packet. We have a Uh maybe it's the minutes from the meeting where the consultants presented
and u a a link to the tape of that present of that meeting because there were some very clear statements made by the consultant about
which of the two options um were probably more appropriate. >> Can you help me get close to when that meeting occurred? It is a blur. If not, I will find it, >> meaning I will beg Athena to help me
find it. But do you recall roughly? >> Well, was in 2025, >> right? >> My recollection is it was in the fall. >> I'll start there. Great. Thank you. and Athena may have better I I can go to
my >> No, no, no. I I'll find it. I That's >> I think you're looking at um um November 3rd. >> Thank you. >> Are you kidding me? How did you do that? >> Because she's a >> It's my job.
>> Magical, >> right? The goddess of wisdom. >> Truly truly living up to the name every day. >> Doesn't miss anything. Athena, I hope that you feel glazed as the kids say after G. >> Glazed. >> Yeah, I've learned that that's a new
thing. >> Glazed. What does that mean? I'm sorry. >> Glazed means like you're like >> I'm going to say it wrong. I'm old. You're like frosted in compliments basically. Um like you're like shiny because everyone's like loving on you. >> Loving on you. Okay. All right. Glaze. >> But like in a complimentary way, not
>> No, it's complimentary. Okay. All right. Okay. So, anyway, my point is we are going to try to we're going to try to get through some pretty intense things. Um, I don't know. Do you think that we should try to start resident oversight board next week or do we think that it's
just not going to happen? We will have been in the 14-day period for approving selection guidance for bylaw review. So, we could start that um and we will have a >> I think it's important for us to get this committee started. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Bylaw review. Yes.
>> Yes. >> That I I agree. So, priorities for bylaw review or priorities for April 14th will be bylaw review HRC.
>> I think that my my concern is that uh what's my concern? My concern is that the amount we have coming I do I I don't want to in both the HRC and and resident oversight board have external folks that
are going to want to come. So I want to respect their time and um >> can I >> I think they also feel they'd like both of these to be moved expeditiously. So exactly >> we're trying to move them expeditiously.
>> Can't control certain outside factors. So, I would urge you to put it on the next agenda. Um, and uh because these are the two things we'd like to get uh settled within if not in the next meeting, the following meeting as soon as we can.
>> Can I can I suggest something different? >> I would put one on the is it the 14th? >> 14th. Yeah. >> One on the 14th and one on the 28th. >> 28th. so that people have a and so that we actually will do it that night
>> so we don't have everybody showing up. And >> what I would suggest on the 14th >> is that we have a preliminary conversation about all of the things that have been referred to us from the charter review
>> and how we're gonna >> and how we're going to tackle it. >> Yeah. because I've been thinking about um that list and feel that you know it's I think again Mandy did a
an amazing job of organizing it for the council and I think what we need to do is not forget everything that was discussed in the council including all those potential edits but what we also can do
I think is go through them and say initially, do we think this is a rule change or >> what? So, I I I'd like us to spend a little time organizing for >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Okay, that sounds good. >> So, why don't Okay, here's here's my thoughts based on this. Next meeting, because there's a couple other small things that I need to shove in there, too. Next meeting we are going to focus on the HRC bylaw. We'll have folks from
KP Law hopefully and if something changes with this I'll adjust but hopefully Pamela and KP Law and the HRC chair. That'll be the first item that we take up likely. We will then go to the selection guidance for the bylaw review committee and the interview questions
for the bylaw review committee. Um, the other thing that I will need to put on, and I think that is going to take us to the end of the time. Um, just to be honest, the other thing that we will need to do, I'm emailing chairs, uh, because I did not do it and I need to, I need to email chairs to ask if they have
any, um, changes to their charge that they would like go to consider. Um, I'm going to start putting that on agendas as one of those we've got 20 minutes and we need to do something with it kind of things. um so that we can kind of crank those out if there are any. I don't know if there will be.
>> There's going to at least be one for finance. >> Great. Uh Athena, >> um as you're doing upcoming agenda items, I had a couple of things, but don't let me interrupt you. >> Are there any for the 14th specifically or that you want on the 14th specifically?
>> Um AAPI and race amity day are coming up. We haven't seen those proclamations yet. Um but those days are coming up and then um further out um pride month is coming up
just as I have >> as you're looking ahead >> I have pride and race amity day in May um because both of those occur in June. Um but I if we get them earlier happy happy. I don't have AAPI but I'll put
that on there. Um AAPI month. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And if yeah, if they get there sooner, but I have not forgotten. I promise. Um, >> so are you still hoping to or what willing to put sort of traffic control
of um what Lid was talking about on the next agenda or are you saying >> I'm going to put that on the 28th? >> You're going to move that to the 28th. So we're we'll do traffic control not next meeting but a second meeting from now. Okay. That's my thought and I'm I mean I'm open to feedback, but I really
think that given the people that we're going to have with us at the meeting on the 14th and the selection guidance and interview questions, I don't think we're going to have time to air traffic control the the charter review. >> What is the danger of putting it on there even if we don't get to it?
>> People showing up that are interested in it and my own stress about not getting to it. >> Well, we don't care about your stress. >> I know. I know >> of >> George. >> No, I appreciate >> that's what she gets to pay the big bucks for. I mean, come on. She's the chair. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Special chair. >> Uhhuh. Really making the most of that stipend. So, >> I will I can put it on there, but I'm just gonna say there's really not much of a chance that we're going to get to it. >> Okay. >> On the 28th, however, looking at a great
time, we will hopefully be done with the selection guidance and interview questions. So, anything pulled from the 14th, I would love to be done with the HRC by The reason why I'm saying there's not going to be time is I want us to get HRC bylaw out on the 14th. Um, and that's going to take a lot of time based
on our conversation today. >> On the 28th, we're going to start in on the resident oversight board. We also need to start talking about the town manager evaluation process and we will start doing that air traffic control on the what was presented from
charter or what was brought recom uh what's the word referred um from charter plus any proclamations that come in from that >> okay >> or not from that external to that >> right >> uh and it should be um okay so here's
I'm sorry to interrupt >> you're fine AAPI and um Jewish American Heritage are May. And if GO reviews them on the 20 um
your second meeting in April the 28th, then council won't have an opportunity to vote them until >> I think May. >> You're right. We have >> So I'll put those to >> Do you know Athena? I I'll look back at who the sponsors were so that we can uh
>> Jennifer Tob um and Kathy Shane are the I think they're the existing council sponsors from Jewish American Heritage and um councelor Hani in the past had sponsored a PI Heritage. >> So we haven't we haven't received them.
I'm just you know for your planning >> sponsor race amity >> but Lynn are you you're not going to bring that until May right? >> Um probably >> or later in April. >> Later in April, right? >> Okay. >> It's just the timing of the go for that.
Okay. >> I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I totally I'm just cognizant of the hour. Um sponsors of upcoming. Okay. So, the just kind of continuing the fun times of
what else is coming up in May. We will also we'll have race. Well, either April or May, we'll have race, amity, and pride. We will also have water and sewer rates at some point. Um, once those get through finance, um, we just approve them for funds. We're we're do a clarity, consistency, and actionability
on those. Councelor Lord, >> is there also a Junth proclamation? >> Yeah, that's going to be I have that in my next I'm I'm moving my way down here. Um, so >> yeah. No, thank you for reminding me. So, um, Junth I had for I think I just
kind of slotted it in on the 26th, but it can be on the 12th depending on when it comes in, uh, and gets referred. So, summer proclamation season is a is a big one. Um, and we've got heavy things on our plate. So, please, um, the things that I'm asking you to do in the time
between these meetings, bone up on the RO stuff. You've got a little bit of time on that one, but I will put those items in the packet as soon as I find them. Um, please think about pro changes that you have would like to make to interview questions for the bylaw review
committee as well as selection guidance. And uh, if you have any additional changes to or questions for the HRC bylaw, send those to me. I think that's everything. Um, anything I forgot? >> Town manager evaluation.
>> Yeah, but I don't need your thoughts on that quite yet. >> It's on there. I have it on for starting on the 28th. We'll talk about it. I mean, you're welcome to send me your thoughts at any time. With that, I'm usually so good at getting us out on time or early, but I apologize. We are one minute a minute late.
>> I know. I'm really sorry. Is there anything else that folks would like to talk about tonight? Otherwise, >> I move to Thank you. >> I second that motion. >> Thank you. Um, let me call the vote. I am an I. Council Ryan >> I.
>> Uh, Lynn >> maybe. Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Hi, Councelor Lord. >> Hi. >> She enjoys our company so much she doesn't want to leave. >> I know. I know. All right. Thank you. We are adjourned. It is 8:31 p.m. Thank you all so much, Athena. Thank you as always.
>> Have a wonderful rest of your evening and I will see you soon. >> Thanks everyone. Anna, your shirt is really cool. >> Thanks.