and I have to um apologize for my head wear uh out in the woods skiing and I do not have professionally um viewable hair so I have to keep my hat on which I think in
Amorous people don't really mind what's the photograph behind you Robin oh it's an oil painting I don't know it's not I mean it looks like it could be from this area yeah I'm just a little west of um about
an hour west of Saratoga Springs in the um I think it's the ader de National Forest hi meline hi Pat hello I don't can't seem to get my video
going but I can hear you so that's okay um okay um so 701 Antonio uh Antonia left a message that she was under the weather without a voice so she won't be attending so I think this is
everybody that we're expecting um um I already let Walker now um I am in the middle of the well at the edge of the Adon national forest and I'm on a weak Wi-Fi so um so far it seems like it's going well but um if I start to get
spotty I might need somebody to just kind of manage um manage the discussion so that's basically it here I'm going to do my little gallery view and then we can get started that's not what I want
okay um so welcome everyone uh Commissioners and members of the public to this ammer historical commission public hearing um in in accordance with Massachusetts law this public hearing of the town of the
emers historical commission is being conducted via remote participation members of the public who wish to access the meeting May do so via Zoom or telephone no inperson attendance of M members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure
that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means a hyperlink to the hearing has been posted on the town's online calendar um before we open the meeting we're going to have uh a roll call for attendance so when you hear
your name just uh attest that you're here hadie startup yeah Patricia o present Antonia brinberg not present mateline Helmer present and Robin forom also
present so uh at this point um I will open the hearing and you know what Walker I'm forgetting already do we do we need a vote to open the hearing is that correct say yes yeah that's how I okay
okay okay um I'm assuming we don't need a motion do we need a motion for that or we just take a vote to open the hearing um you could probably just take a vote okay so uh we'll have a roll call vote to open this public hearing
um so this is a public hearing held in accordance with the provisions of article 3.60 of AM General bylaws the preservation of historically significant buildings uh this hearing is being held on Monday March 3rd 202 5 at 7: p.m. to
consider demol demolition application request for 11:46 North Pleasant Street uh applicant Wesley Parker a request to demolish a circuit 1890 Carriage House um roll call vote uh to open the hearing
uh Hy startup I vote Yes Patricia o yes mateline Helmer yes and Robin for my vote Yes uh with that we uh officially
open the public hearing at 7:05 p.m. um usually at this point the first um item is to uh welcome the applicants and uh have their presentation so if Walker if you can
invite in uh assum there um so I see two Carrie Parker and Michael Holden are you all three going to want to be in or can you raise your hand if you want to be allowed to talk I guess not sure who
is here um oh yeah you should be able to talk now I so this is West Parker can you hear me okay yes okay I'm probably under I think this computer says it's Carrie Parker but it's me
okay um so uh as I as we discussed earlier today with the folks that were on site um I've we've we've been here in this property for a long time as my grandparents house
um and we've taken measures to maintain the structures that seemed maintainable and and workable uh including the front house back house and the large barn we've already demoed and rebuilt where
we had a shed that had been a butcher shop um many years ago the structure that we're seeking to demolish has been used as a garage that um will fit one vehicle um
but we really need more uh vehicle uh parking so you know that's part of the plan uh with the Demolition but the structure itself is in a state where it's beginning to twist um structurally it wasn't built on a
foundation um and um at some point uh if if nothing happens you it's it's going to collapse um which represents some level of safety threat although I don't know you know the timing on that but it's definitely showing signs that's
continuing to degrade so we'd like to remove the structure which we consider an usable structure um we'd like to um make an effort to have it removed so that you know beams can be um repurposed so we would uh seek a demolition
contractor that would um repurpose anything that that is usable coming out of that structure and then yeah we plan to proceed with a with a replacement um structure on site um slightly different
location um so that's kind of an overview and any questions I'm happy to address great thank you are there any questions from Commissioners regarding um Mr par Parker's information that he's presented
for us no okay all right um great thank you then thank you for that information and thanks for um hosting our uh staff and commissioner this afternoon for site visit we really
like to see these properties up close it's much appreciated um so with that um I would turn to Walker is there any additional information from the town or um if H uh
would like to H or Walker would like to provide information from the site visit now would be a good time to do that do you want me to share those sandborn Maps you sent out right before sorry yeah I just sent these right before the meeting just yeah so if if it if
everybody's seen them that's fine but I could also share them on my screen if you're interested do you have more photos of the building or um the only photo that was submitted is the one that's in the packet
okay um yeah would you want to just put those up there Walker yeah this is the 1916 sandburn map um the uh I have it in here
um the recorded macis does mention the sandborn maps 1916 and 1930 I think earlier than 1916 they don't sample that particular area of town uh in North Amer but um this upper image um you can see
in the context if you scroll up a little bit um you can see where there's Meadow Street North Pleasant Street and um the smaller building to the South there is the carriage uh
Carriage House with uh I'm not sure what that attached structure was maybe um that was what um I think I walked on that under the snow
then Walker if scroll down uh since it was so hard to view I did a little closeup so you can see that it's clearly labeled Carriage House uh 1916 which is just on the edge of having done some research in the area it's just on the
edge of when um carage houses and barns and Stables um were converted to automobile garages uh my understanding from the macus form is that the 1930 sand map which I couldn't get my hand hands on um does show uh or actually no
that's not true I did I took a quick look at it just it is labeled a for auto um which I think is always fun to see these buildings change over time um but that's that hdy did you want to talk about the site
visit I just took a lot of photographs and um Mr Parker has some pictures that I'm Keen to copy for the town you know so that we have a record of interesting things that happened in
and around that building um I think one of the things that is intriguing about it is that when it was converted for use of a car the car was quite large so they simply at some point O opened the back wall of the
building um and that is still there so I have a photograph of that which I will make sure Walker has copies of um um so it it's it is tored um it's quite noticeable from the back of the of the
building um one of the doors is not serviceable at all um there was at one point um a staircase I think there is still a staircase although we didn't see it to to a space upstairs in the um in
the building um so it's it's more complicated inside than you would be led to believe um but you know I think it's not the same date as the house
which um was built in the 1830s I think um Mr Parker said it was about 1890 yeah the ma for um dates it to 1890 1900 and 1900 I believe there was um um one the Dickinson families living there
and the carriage house is mentioned in their I think in their tax records um 1890 not quite as clear but about that time period yeah he said there was a they had borders at one point and I'm involved with the mil River history
Trail project and we're finding a lot of that we're finding Dickinson all over the place but also finding um that there are um houses where people are taking in people um for you know to get extra
income um yeah so can can you still hear me hear yeah I'm I'm dying to to chirp in here um so Heddy I did um look and I found photos right that show both the
carriage house and that building that's like diagonal I think that must have been like a I mean it's just like in the side photo so you don't have a Clear View exactly of what it looked like but I think it might have been like a chicken coup or something and then I
have photos I was wrong I said that there was wood piled up behind the carriage house no the wood was piled up right next to the house and behind the carriage house is where they were hanging laundry
everywhere and there were grape findes that were um there and yeah I think I think you'll be kind of excited to see some of the photos it also shows um some of the destruction that happened when the Dutch Elm um disease came in so we
have um people working and taking down trees I also have pictures of when the hurricane came through it was at 39 some somewhere around there um I also have pictures of the house you can see on the
front um there was a front porch and my grandparents took that down I have pictures of the P still there the and the chimney that you were taking a picture of that was added I think in like 1911 because the original pictures
of the um uh chimneys they were at they they were internal to the house and the original entrance into the house was remember I was saying how they used to throw charcoal not charcoal but coal down so I actually have that old um
where they would throw that down so I've got a lot of photos both of the property and looking back towards um what is 116 now which are just hay fills that have the big old hay um like the cones the way they used to stack the Bales so um
yeah I found some cool stuff I I think I think you'll um like to see that um and Dickinson yes so my my grandmother told me Dickinson's lived in the house I think there was a doctor who was a uh was it a Dickinson or was it fish
fish Fisher Fisk that was actually a doctor's office that that little um so that uh on the main house where it kind of shows like a a a door and I don't know a room that was a doctor's office
um for one of the uh one of the I think after the Dickinson's I think sorry I just I was dying to share that sorry thank you no thank you so much that's really wonderful there is a pretty extensive um history um on the on
macas um that was put together looks like in 2014 and um yeah you're correct it's a do fish um interestingly
uh yeah I'm just looking here the the um the garage itself has a a a point maess it doesn't have its own record but it has a point and maess and it is called the Dr fish Carriage House
garage yeah so this that's fantastic we could do a continuation sheet um on this record to add that um to the macros documentation I appreciate appreciate all that information thank you okay
um let's see where we at are I think um unless there's other comment from members of the commission we could move to a public comment before we get into our official deliberation um so since I don't hear
any of my Commissioners speaking up um if there is anyone in the public who would like to provide public comment at this time you can feel free ra to raise your hand and Walker will let you into the meeting if you could introduce yourselves um and limit your comments to
about 3 minutes that would be great I'm just going to give a minute for people to raise their hands we may not need that okay not seeing any um any hands raised so we will move
on um so we can move on into our general discussion U for Commissioners the question um before us as this property this resource has been determined to be historically significant is whether it is preferably preserved according to our
bylaw is there anybody who would like to go ahead and start the discussion off with their opinion and feelings about this must feel like a teacher at this point don't all speak at am I gonna call
on I'm really impressed with the amount of information that there is about um this little building and I think once when it had its porch it probably would have read as a more
integrated group of buildings you know based on the on the site itself um as a series of you know attached related farm buildings and a farmhouse
um it's really interesting that that chimney that I took a picture of is not original um so it's it's obviously got some really interesting moments historically in terms of North amamos history in particular um and I think that that in
itself makes it historically significant as a contributing building to a a larger property you have thoughts on its uh uh feelings about whether it is we would consider it preferably
preserved or whether you really as a member of the commission well ideally yes I mean it would be preferably preserved you know um but I mean I'm sorry and I don't mean to lead you hedie um I mean I I can give just kind of an overview especially
since we have our applicant here um the question before us is what the that determining a building is preferably preserved gives the commission the opportunity to impose a delay on
demolition um even in the case of imposing a full 12-month delay which is the limit of what the commission can impose um if no action is taken uh in those 12 months um the applicant can
just let that period expire and then the demolition can go forward after 12 month period the purpose of imposing a demolition delay is to allow for possible preservation of the structure and the idea around what is
preferably preserved is that its loss would be significant to the historic context of the area um I think what gets challenging for us and what I come up against is um particular particularly with
individual property owners and particularly with smaller buildings like this is um unless you have a building that's really reached the point we did have one Barn before us that was determined um there were extensive efforts by the owners to um try to
rehabit and it was really impossible um you know the the preservation of a structure can be economically unfeasible so even something that's tilting or you know
sort of the question of like what's possible if you have enough money um you know that can determine what's possible so um thinking about whether a structure is preferably preserved relates to how it relates to the other buildings what
is the Integrity of the site um and then even if we come to that conclusion um there's an expectation that imposing a demolition delay would be for the purpose of a realistic expectation of a outcome of preservation we don't
consider we absolutely appreciate the ReUse of historic materials and also the relocation of buildings but we don't consider those to be preservation efforts per se um they are are historically
sensitive deconstructions but um so that's just kind of my my Spiel there because I struggle uh a lot of times with things that I um feel strongly about uh how they contribute to the site and then going
from there what the realistic outcome is uh and imposing a delay so sorry Hy I took over there I felt like I was leading you down a path that you didn't ask to be leted down so um meline or Pat do you w to chime in
at all um it's plat I I'm interested in both H's comment and West Parker's comment about the the building being torqued and not having a
u um base structure and so it would seem that that would make it more difficult to try to preserve um given the the situation as
it stands now Mr Parker did you just want to make a further comment on that um sure so um again as I pointed out to the folks during the site visit there there's
nobody that has more interest in caring for that structure than I do but I'm also pragmatic about the reality of the structure and I've had a series of folks come in uh one of which uh you know Hy
met briefly um because the barn the big barn that had to be saved um we had rot in um uh I thought all four posts but um the guy who did the work said it was a couple posts and then he had a bunch of
work to do along the sill and so we preserved the barn which is a really significant structure that will continue to require resources from my family to maintain that structure and I'm
committed to re to that structure I am not committed to keeping the structures that the contractors have told me they are not worth saving because they are structurally deficient so just as we
removed the um the shed and we put up a in-law apartment for my mom and my dad and my grandmother to come to and these are all buildings that are basically being built for my family um and this is a family property for going on a hundred
years and it is our wish to continue to live here and maintain some families in North amers when houses all around me are being taken over by students who are not I mean the owners are not going to
be taking care of those buildings the way and and you know I would and um so because I've had and I'm going to count three contractors look at that structure and say not worth saving it it's going
to come down and if you delay it 12 months you can delay it 12 months but it will come down right understood yeah I have a I think sometimes we can implement this demolition delay to work with owners to
develop alternative Solutions but I understand that um this structure itself is it would interfere with just the feasibility of living in this in this
house um just being able to to devote your resources to um maintaining the house and the barn and and then you I also think that the the garage the
structure itself is sort of separate from the house um I mean just physically and there's this sort of site that is the house
attached to the the the big barn and we can kind of keep that that will be intact um even with the loss of this building and also um chronologically this isn't part
of the sort of period of significance for the house necessarily I mean I think the most significant period would be right the when it was constructed um and it
does it is very VIs from the road and that just sort of um arrangement of buildings is so distinctive and me just that you don't want to interfere
with that by removing it so that is something that I'm hesitant towards but and I would really urge um owner to for any new building to have it pushed back you know from the street to just and I don't know if if that means we would need to work with
them or or if that's just um a piece of advice but I don't want to interfere with that um that visibility from the the road
that you can see this historic the site is is so intact right now with how those buildings work together yeah that I think that's a good point and kind of how I feel matteline I would say that in terms of
um and I I just want to be like really gentle here this is not necessarily where I think we're going but um you know one of the things that we we have two options one is to advise we can always do that take our advice the in a
situation where we felt really strongly about something um and a redesign uh which I don't necessarily think is the case here um the demolition to blay could be imposed to reach an agreement about um um a
redesign of of you know what whatever would come there but I don't necessarily think that that we're there um I don't know that there's that much more discussion that we need to have I think we need to move toward
emotion um and so we have before us the option of uh a motion to uh see the structure is not preferably preserved uh and we have the option to make a motion to determine that the structure is
preferably preserved um and I think we kind was kind of test the waters there for what if someone if someone wants to make a motion they that we feel like we've come to the end of our discussion um this would be the time
to do that and then we could go forward with a vote I think I'm still interested in hearing other commission members um sort of thoughts on this um I mean I would say that my
thought and I I just really struggle with um with I really struggle with I think the way that the BW is presented toward me I had this problem last time where I feel
like on an intellectual level I would say on an intellectual level so I would say oh it would be better if this building were retained it lends um particularly with you know Massachusetts uh old houses big house little house back house Barn you know having done a
whole research paper on garages and Carriage Houses and I'm being interested in that whole history you know it's one more thing that gives you a sense of the progression of time over the site the site is in a Village Center it's hasn't lost its Integrity of site uh and on and
on and on and the other part of me feels like there's no real path towards preservation here and this is where I think that I get I get stuck with our bylaw and that it's totally reasonable expectation um to Grant a demolition
permit to the owner because it we just don't have a good case of you know of of a a rebuild of this property so last time I tried I tried to to circumvent things by suggesting we we
vote that it was preferably preserved but allowed for the demolition which I think is um in that case it had a little bit more to do with the design um plan in place but I think here that you know I'm just really stuck but I think I'm I
just lean toward you know I feel like I'm moving backwards from feeling like it's appropriate to allow for the Demolition and that always makes me feel uncomfortable um but I do feel yeah I think that if this was a if we were a historic district commission we would
Usher through you know a sensitive reconstruction reconstruction here and that would be the um the reach of this commission but it's not so it's right
exactly so I mean the option is to put forth the motion for Ming is preferably preserved and a suggestion of you know you could we you could make a design suggestion that the owner could
take into consideration or we could skip that well I well I heard some a couple of you say to move the new structure as back as far as possible um from the street I guess from the street view so that's something that
could be considered although I seem to remember there was a pretty steep drop off from behind the building um so that might yeah and I don't think that would quite complicated um having seen the
site yeah and I think that that um I mean certainly there are you know I've heard of other cases where you know there's more it would require a more heavy hand to to make that a condition um would require a real heavy
hand from our commissioners great and I think that we don't I think that we really only have the space to make just you know a general advisement and and I I just want to reiterate my appreciation for the owner and their history and what they're doing and this is we just we we're just
struggling with the historic fabric of this it is all all those reasons make sense and um I apologize for the uh delay deliberation here I think you put it very well Robin um in terms of the
sort of f different facets that we're trying to consider um and I would like to make a motion that we allow the demolition to go ahead okay so um H has made a to clarify had you made a motion
to uh to determine this structure not preferably preserved that would be the yep okay and H is saying yes to that do we have a second to that motion and M second okay um we have an opportunity for further discussion I'm guessing that
we've pretty much discussed ourselves out so that case we'll move to roll call vote the vote before us is to affirm that the structure uh at one sorry 11:46
North Pleasant Street uh the 1890 circuit herriage house is not preferably preserved um so I will start with mateline your vote uh yes um H yes Pat
yes and I also will vote Yes so that is a four to zero vote um the structure is not preferably reserved which means that the demolition permit can go forward and um Mr Parker I appreciate your patience and um I'm assuming at this point uh
Walker you will be in touch with the applicant uh for next steps correct yes so I will go online and finish out the online application and you'll get a certificate saying that your demolition was approved by the committee and then you can proceed with your building
permit and um to add Mr Parker I I'm just delighted with the amount of history that you have on the house and one of the things that we are trying to do is add to the macis records that's the state level um records that are um available online about the history of the house so anything that you can
provide us um we can work on adding um as a continuation sheet to that record and that history will be um maintained at the state level I'm I'm happy to do that okay great thanks so much okay
um so now um our public hearing has ended and we need a vote to close the hearing um I can't remember if we oh okay so moved thank you so I'll second we'll have a vote to
close the hearing uh Hy I Pat yes meline yes and I also vote I uh so the public meeting is officially closed at 7:37 p.m. appreciate everybody's
attendance and um patience and um Walker did we want to uh are we just going to go for an a our April meeting I don't think we have a date for that since we weren't able to yeah it's up to you because we had to can cancel the public meeting part of
this meeting we could either meet in a couple weeks and finish the agenda or we can hold off the only thing of any urgency might be the discussion of the um memorandum of agreement for the Jones library is something that you don't sign
off on but um the historical commission is referenced pretty extensively throughout the document so uh mine and Hy and I have been kind of looking through and trying to make sure that it's accurate to what was actually yeah Bob parents said that they expect
it to be finalized this week so that's what he said yeah and we can't really discuss that tonight because it's not on the agenda but will email you sorry do you have a date preference meline for when we would meet again can
that wait till April or do you want to meet some time in March 17th 24th well I think we're just discussing this because if we need to discuss this MOA or if it would just be too late
anyways if we met in March I mean yeah I think that might just have to be I'll send you my thoughts over email okay see what you think um so our planned meeting is for April 7th
7 okay um do we can we what's everybody's preference I mean without discussing the the mo MOA I mean there are there are things in there that I'm really unhappy about um but so
Walker I mean can we meet earlier than a April 7 that's what I'm of asking is there a date and I have to be careful here because I can't say anything but um is there a date before so it's the third now third dat before the next meeting
that you feel like would meet that need that we could attend to the agenda that wasn't um that we didn't have tonight basic this this week is the deadline they were hoping to get it signed by the 6th so which is like the March 6th yeah
so then Teddy and Walker should just take the discussion off I think that's probably the way to do it yeah meeting form okay all right so I'll leave it to you guys to discuss outside of a public meeting yeah you'll have to I mean
trying to avoid discussion yeah obviously exct I be a between kind of and okay thank you thank you all right so then our next meeting would be April 7th at I don't think there was anything else urgent so okay can I just ask a
question it's that yeah um if if this H review is going to be outside of a meeting um is there going to be a written comment and if so could that be distributed to the historical commission
so yeah have an appreciation of what's going to be said and if we have any problem with that we can have a voice yeah so the mo MOA itself was sent out I believe to all commission
members um but yes not okay so if you want to read through that and provide any comments on that that's that's currently what the town and MHC are reviewing we the historical commission may or may not have the ability to actually make changes to it
at this point but we can provide you can provide comments I think so I just wanted to um read through it and check the the veracity of all the statements they include in there that's basically all
that yeah I'm not even sure if we can do that but I just wanted to email them and if there's anything that wasn't reflected actually in the hearings because we're referenced quite heavily in it so that's all I think probably the cleanest way to do this is to have each of you
individually email me with any comments editions edits Etc that you might have I can respond individually with my um the thoughts I had when I was reading through it um not having been at the original hearings and then um I can
compile those and we can't like change the stipulations or anything we can just it's just about basically add yeah something that you think got left out that was important or is just Mis phrased and misrepresented would be
good to know so at some point we'll all be able to be privy to the comments yeah if everybody sends their comments I can compile them and have them on one document that I can send
back to everybody thank you okay let's try and do that very soon like over the next couple days we yeah our deadline is in three days so so be good to do that in the next
two so see you guys in April thank you okay thank you thanks everybody thank you enjoy your skiing thanks yeah bye good night bye