good afternoon everyone today is the March 26th meeting I just checking my date since I had a meeting yesterday March 26th meeting of jcpc and seeing that we have a quorum I'm calling the meeting to order and first making sure
since we're conducting the meeting virtually that every all the members can hear and be heard so I'll just call out names as I see them on the screen Sarah here Bob present Lee here Natt yes
Bridget yes and we are missing one counselor holl Lord but we we will proceed and Melissa you should just dictate who we hear from first we have a posting of the
projects um so Dave and Rob are here for um the um for conservation and um planning and uh they have a you you want me to um
share your slides um either way you know these are pretty short lists so we could if everyone's had a chance to look at them I mean it's what is the committee want to do see the actual proposed project on the screen or
or are we ready for people to just talk Dave and Rob have prepared a a slide very short you know six slide presentation from from conservation and we can move pretty quickly I think it would be useful to do those then since
we have the you know the the form formatted proposals in our packet and maybe before you share that Melissa Kathy would it be okay to just intro where we're going absolutely sure so thanks everybody for having I'm joined by Rob MOA who is both our Building
Commissioner and our our temporary planning director so thanks to Rob for filling in in that uh regard as well and and he can chime in uh anywhere in this but uh particularly if as we talk about um a couple there's only a few planning requests but happy to have Rob chime in
as necessary I think the the first thing I'd say is you know um conservation planning Inspection Services DPW we all work together there's a lot of collaboration here um I was just on the phone and on emails with with uh DPW
staff talking about a whole host of projects so you know we try very very hard not to be a siloed um organization there is there is um collaboration help among departments we frequently work with DPW with the Tre and uh
conservation does with the Tre and crowns crowns division with the engineering Division and likewise um Rob and his staff uh and the planner help us out on on a whole host of projects and many of these projects need permitting uh I think I put that in one of my
responses uh we are now at the point where where parking lots and bridges they need building permits they need land use permits um so it is not like the 1960s or 70s where you went out and put a couple of telephone poles across a brook and off you go we have to make
sure these these structures are safe and in many cases accessible as they possibly can be depending on their location so um I just wanted to start I think with that with the conservation requests uh they're really focused in a couple of different areas um and and
overall overall our goal here you know we hear a lot about trails in ammer and they are wonderful we have a 140 miles of trails I was recently corrected by one of my staff because for years we were carrying the number 80 miles well Aaron jock who's who's wonderful and an
expert at GIS said Dave I really doubt that number so she went in the gis and she re recalculated turns out it's about 140 miles or so of of trails but our goal is to have the best and most accessible trails in Massachusetts we're a long way from that we have very nice
Trails a lot of them like many of our facilities Recreation outdoor facilities passive Recreation facilities they need work um there's there's there's root damage there's erosion many of our bridges have literally are from the
1970s or even some from the 1960s so we're trying to work our way through uh I don't like to call it deferred maintenance but if if we want to call it that that's fine we're trying to be proactive work our way and get some of these um these wonderful structures over
ponds uh over streams rivers and wetlands um back in in good order and every year we we knock that off conservation has two field staff just so you know two fdes so we're more and more trying to pull in outside help and and
Rob and his team have been great Bob parent who you've heard a lot about has been wonderful um but when needed uh sometimes it's more efficient to bring in and hire somebody to build that bridge over the Mill River or the Fort River or whatnot so when when uh when we
when we can and when when budgets allow it's more efficient and sometimes uh less costly to do that so we try to do that so why don't we jump into some quick slides and and I can run through those really rapidly so we'll talk about trails and then I'll I'll switch over to puffer spawn because
those are the the main um and Melissa if you could just forward that'd be great so this is a picture of puffer Pond the first picture and maybe I'll come back to puffers because we do have some requests mostly in the out years for puffers but you know again over 100 miles of trails uh some of the bridges
and boardwalks and such are from again the 1960s and 1970s uh some of you are familiar with large Hill this is a wonderful Beau F Boardwalk this Boardwalk was built I know because I help built it um in the 1980s and it was built um um almost
entirely by the engineering Honor Society at UMass and they paid for most of the um paid for most of the lumber uh the problem is in it's been there since 1987 88 and it's it's sinking into the Wetland as you can see in that lower leftand corner and it needs to be
replaced a boardwalk like that um probably in materials alone I would estimate it might be $50,000 and then that's not even counting the labor where we can as I said we try to do the labor with with
Town staff with volunteers and then we also collaborate with groups like The castal trust the Hitchcock Center and we have a lot of um other profits and nonprofits for-profits and nonprofits who uh dedicate some of their their staff time to to helping us so lots of
bridges and boardwalks to replace and repair some of them pretty pretty pretty large like this one and others very small like on the on the right hand side of this slide next slide please again with a focus on Ada that first slide showed some accessible
Trails um we have um approximately five trails that are either partially or completely and I I don't say the the entire Trail is meant to be accessible we still need to improve it to to meet those standards some of our trails
are accessible to a degree but are not fully accessible I will say some of the trails that we're currently building at um at um Hickory Ridge will will meet um most if not all of the the Ada standards at the state level and the federal level
but again Bridges bridge on the left uh is solid you've got your great IE beams there and and our hope is to rede this bridge and and have it open in 25 again middle and left these are bridges that the bones are good but we
just need to rede them and U uh deal with accessibility and also make them safe so so young children don't fall through the uh the railings next slide um so examples of projects we did in 24 showing kind of before and after
uh a lot of the projects we do are trying to remove things like old coverts uh covers that have been filled in been crushed uh eroded rotted over time uh this work also involves really climate resiliency we need to get a lot of these
old covers covers that were put in in the 50s 60s 7s most of them are are junk at this point and they create bottlenecks in our rivers and streams and that's where flooding occurs so when you can you replace covers with elevated
boardwalks or Bridges and let that water flow through around and in some some cases over our bridges so we these are some examples of of accessible trails that we um worked on in 24 and uh this is kind of the where we want to be
moving forward next slide um more examples of kind of good work we did these are some of the bridges down at SED Alas and the KC Trail bridge in other words um excuse me um uh the the the lower leftand Bridge
we worked on with the krro trust uh they they bought all of the um uh lumber for that bridge which was thousands of dollars and then we came in and helped with labor and you have a beautiful new bridge that's accessible and also um uh takes people on a a wonderful tour of a
of a wetland complex there over on the right are examples of simpler Bridge Bridges but again that need maintenance the you know these were again built during the 60s and 70s and all the wood rotted and you know again it might take you know a
to rede say a low a boardwalk on the lower right um but again $1,000 um is $1,000 so and that'll last for years if done correctly um um with the right spacing and with the right material next
slide um ecological restoration and I put this in because we are asking for a couple of pieces of equipment the first piece of equipment really helps us it's a roller it helps us with the um with the accessible trails um it's a $25,000
item and we need that to uh maintain our our Crush Stone hardack Trails all over town um and it's something that we pretty much need to do maintenance on a little maintenance every year ecological restoration um essentially we try to
keep as many of our Open Fields uh in early successional habitat as possible um it's great for Birds it's great for other Wildlife people love it it's that kind of pastoral setting like the slide on the right it is good for a lot of
other things like dog walking and flying kites and chasing butterflies and all the great yoga and all the other things that people like to do in our conservation areas and our our Open Fields we keep about 300 acres of early successional habitat open among the
2400 Acres of conservation land that we manage next slide oh that one oh okay that one snuck in I wasn't um want me to go past it why don't well why don't we hold there for a second yeah I didn't know that one was
in there but that's okay why don't I hold on Trails does anybody have any questions on Trails before we talk bu first bond is that a good uh segue Kathy uh yeah and I have one or Sarah go ahead well I just we're not yet talking about
the specific Capital requests or we are or puffer Bond or the trails so trails Trails was 25,000 correct Dave well there's I I kind of I kind of grouped trails with the um uh small roller small
equipment and brush mower those are the three I I don't know if I'm looking at the most updated uh spreadsheet but Melissa can so the brush mower the brush mower the small so that's 35 20 25 and 25 correct those were the ones I was
kind of grouping in this first little slide deck giving you kind of a context for why it's needed okay so um so questions on the collected set Bob yeah the only question I have Dave is whether these uh these small equipment
especially the brush mower mower the uh um the small equipment whether we have that at DPW or whether we can share some of the the cost with DPW um you know it seems like they they they need a mower too you know what I
mean they're they're and the question is what you know what what is the DPW versus the conservation department uh scope so to speak yeah it's a great question and one that comes up almost every year Bob and and um I guess what I
would say is in the ideal World um some of these smaller pieces of equipment could be shared the challenge is that in our short growing season here in Massachusetts everybody needs it at the same time and so when they're doing the
work that they do to maintain Road sidewalks Commons Parks water they're they they oversee and maintain our Watershed land we are also doing the exact same thing in conservation so um we don't have a lot of equipment in
conservation um it is quite a small grouping I would say but the challenge is and we do we do share when we can for instance uh we do not have a a chipper but if we need one a large tree an 80
foot U sugar maple comes down on one of our Trails uh or near a parking lot and we need help we would call on alen snow and he's often very generous and and we try to repay him when he needs help and his street crew needs help we do that
but again we don't have a chipper because we simply don't think we need it when we need it we call on him but the these items we really feel like we need when we need them um the small equipment is something actually that Rob had
recommended and I think it's a great idea we we need things like you know we we both have volunteers students and we hire a few uh Summer Staff but we we need um small brush Cutters weed whackers um things like that small
mowers uh that we maintain puffers spond and some of the other Trail heads with and they get they take a real beating every summer I mean when you're talking about going along Trails uh and these small engines even with the best maintenance will give out and and they
take a real beating uh every summer so that's in an attempt to try to replace things like brush Cutters chainsaws and things of that nature so I guess the shorter answer is we share when we can but sometimes there is just not enough
equipment to go around understood thanks Sarah yeah well um I think I heard part of an answer to my question which is to what degree are you able to use uh electric uh equipment or or fuel
efficient you did refer to engine so you're not it's not 100% battery operated you know it's obviously a brush hoger isn't going to be electric but some of the smaller things could be so yeah comment what can you say about a couple
of comments here yeah so every time we purchase any piece of equipment we are looking for the most you know first of all the the the toughest equipment the most economical and the greenest we possibly can honestly we have not gone electric um we
have simply number one we don't buy a lot of equipment in conservation we're not a big purchaser of equipment overall I mean uh trucks and tractors and things of that sort uh I think one of our tractors is probably well it's got to be 25 to 30 years old um but in short um I
think we we want to be moving in that direction uh right now we are we do not have many um I don't think we have any electric uh pieces of equipment uh in part because of some of the challenges of being out on Trails we're not on the
North common or the main common when you run out of juice and you're a mile into a trail yes you can bring extra batteries but it is very difficult to pack those in I think it's the direction we want to go Sarah I met recently with the DPW um staff from Welsley
Massachusetts and they have a um completely fitted Out trailer with all electric chainsaws brush Cutters um line trimmers uh and even some small mowers so that was quite inspiring to meet with
them and say could we get to that point and again with a recurring small equipment line like we have in the capital budget now of $20,000 a year I think that's a direction that uh we could explore and and uh Rob has quite a
bit of expertise in this area as well and um it's something we should look at is could we begin to move in that area for some of the small handheld equipment right the weed whackers yeah exactly I don't know if you use blowers but we
don't we try not to use a lot of blow we try not to use a lot of blowers but because of the noise the one place we we do sometimes use blowers is on accessible trails to keep sticks and leaves off the trails so but I think that's a really great comment and if we
were to receive this this funding we could certainly look in that direction and try to be as green as we can with our purchases uh July 1 and in future uh fiscal Years thank you well I have one more Dave on the $25,000 for trail
Improvement and it's in part motivated by having just reviewed the CPAC regress where you have $130,000 for Trails so could you does the CPAC money provide enough this year could you live without
the extra 25 and I also looked that you hadn't necessarily spent out on the earlier CPAC money I mean you're planning on spending it so this year was a large Trail Improvement bucket ler than what I've seen in the past from the
community preservation act um 130 does not sound does did I read the wrong number okay Li I have it here I might have it says trails and
foot Brides Bridges 130 okay um that sounded too high to me but um well is that what was approved by the council or was that the original proposal I thought it was that's the one that's that's the one that's in the financial
order that just approved um so regardless I think what we again what we were trying to do here with this is say that in order to keep up with just the backlog of Maintenance replacement we were trying to get similar to facilities
and get in get in a a pattern of trying to fund small amounts like $225,000 every year regardless if we you know 130,000 sounds like a lot but that's really probably if we do two
significant Bridges two two and a half Bridges if you will if half a bridge uh is something um that money is probably gone we're looking at Bridge projects uh you know there was a long-standing bridge proposal over the amethyst Brook
and when our budget for that our estimates uh surpassed $100,000 I I really said I don't think we can afford to do that bridge anymore but some of these Bridges like along the M River and the Fort River um they're very well established trails and when you go to
replace them they will be $50 to $100,000 so I guess Kathy to your question can we live without the $25,000 we certainly can live without it but it's a it's a hard question to ask a department head when you know that one
Bridge might be 50 Grand Dave I'm mainly asking it because the CAC C that one was so much higher than usual CU you've usually been in the 50 range and and spending up to it so I think this year because of probably lack of competition
of other worthy projects they went they went higher on you um the other piece of this is we're starting to get in a nice little pattern of of Permitting design and and construction so when you get in that pattern you you kind of get on a
roll Rob and Brad who is Our Land manager Aaron jock our whole team is kind of getting in a nice pattern of Permitting design permitting and then construction either doing the construction inhouse or actually hiring out for economic and and other reasons
um so we're kind of in that pattern and we're we've gained some momentum and and we've really worked that system pretty well so my my goal was to try to build on that momentum get some money set aside and then spend it and then try to get some of these bigger projects done
so we're back in the maintenance you know if we get 25 from capital and we get you know 4550 from CPA that can get us through some of the smaller projects but you know you all have to make the decisions that that you need to make with the overall Capital plan Paul will
ultimately make them but your recommendation if you want Sarah yeah you referred to nonprofit and some for-profit groups helping out and maybe they're providing volunteer effort or or some materials I
don't know but do you seek grants like maybe for the Ada trails in particular are there grant opportunities for we do we see grants as you know Sarah all the time for instance um uh we
you know Hickory Ridge is a recent example we got two grants down there one was a park grant for the the first loop trail that we open in June and the second Grant was a department of conservation and Recreation Trails Grant
I think that was on the order of 140 160,000 um so again both of those had an ADA accessible Trail component to them so when we can we do there aren't specific grants that I know of that are you know for a bridge it really needs to
be a trail the other challenge for us is other than Hickory Ridge I have been trying to fix what we have and you know really I think in my tenure here we have not built many new trails in ammer we
are trying to maintain what we have um you know our land acquisition program has since since um Hickory I don't believe we've acquired any land so that is really kind of leveled off so I think the goal is to maintain and improve what
we have and try to bring those up to a higher standard um so that's that's our goal and not build new trails new trails come with permiting and costs etc etc um is there anything else on the
conservation can we move over we can go to the multi-million dollars that you proposed on puffers yeah I don't know if everybody saw my responses there were a few questions that were asked at one of the recent jcpc meetings and I tried to
answer those as best I could um but let me quickly summarize buffer spawn so in in this slide um which um you know has some of the some interesting highlights from the past eight or nine months here um so so what is our Approach at puffers
so first and foremost um the approach is safety we've got to make sure always that the dam that we own the Dyke that we control um both those structures are safe so we were very fortunate recently to get um uh $250,000
design assessment and design engineering design uh Grant from the state the office of damned safety uh in Boston to do a full assessment of the dam and Dyke at puffers now keep in mind we do do
engineering um um assessments of those every two years and in those engineering uh documents they identify things that should be done to the dam and Dyke um this this is a much more comprehensive
look uh this will actually uh we're doing full borings uh at the Dyke we will be putting divers in the pond looking at the face of the dam uh you and and all of us look at this lovely picture on the leftand side of this
slide in the winter and summer and it's gorgeous but the real the real question is what is the underwater side of the dam look like how much sediment is there and if we needed to in an emergency say a storm like we saw in Vermont over the
last two summers if we need to draw down that pond in a hurry would the emergency U release uh structure which is up on top of the dam and and and allows us to control the the level of the pond would that work and that's something we're not
fully confident of 100% so we're going to put divers in the pond we're going to check uh sediment levels depth we're going to look at the be symmetry of the pond that is the depth of the sediments in the entire Pond and then we're going to come up with a plan that engineering
team will come up with a plan again Bob parent is working with us on this that engineering team will come up with a design for improvements to the dam and any improve excuse me any improvements we need to do to the Dyke and to the dam um we think a lot of the the actual work
needs to be done to the Dyke we think the dam is based on those uh uh semiannual um reports is in Fairly good shape but no one has put a diver in there uh since uh we haven't looked at the face of the dam since it was drained
which had to be in the 1980s sometime so so the answer is we're using pass Capital to match the state Grant and then we would come back both to the capital plan as well as to the state when we're ready to do those
improvements to the dam and Dyke and we don't know those numbers those numbers are simply estimates now based on previous engineering studies and again I think once by the end of this year early 26 we will have very solid cost
estimates for repairs to the dam and Dy thank you and it people should raise their hands as we go along I'm just seeing that I had sent in some questions um we and there were answers and one was we we
did give a grant the town did and that and Dave's answer to to do this assessment and that Grant was used to bring down to bring in the other 250 you know so we leveraged we leveraged that that was our local man put in some money and then it leveraged other money which
is terrific so thank you before I know Sarah has a question but so that's the dam and Dyke safety the bigger you know the longer term question is you know what does the town want to do with this wonderful res Source in north ammer and so you know
we're trying we have multip multiple levels here we have Dam and Dyke safety we have water quality we're starting a more rigorous and robust uh sampling um regime this summer to look at potential Upstream uh sources of contamination for
the pond but the real question is do we want to dredge the pond and again in some of the out years here we've put some very rough estimates for dredging and Beach improvements and again and um we we have engaged an engineering firm
uh to and Landscape Architecture Firm to look at some of those those will be firmed up this year um but again you know to dredge we're we're easily in the million to $2 million range we believe um and at some point the town will need
to decide how critical how important is this resource for the residents and for the region um it is filling in naturally it is it is a non-natural pond that is filling in naturally through the the flow of the kushman brook and sedimentation um uh I I've heard from
many families and and others that um you know the pond is getting shallower and it's getting a little swampy in certain parts and that's because it's shallower we also believe that the water quality issue is is unfortunately negatively impacted by that that uh that that
process as well which is the pond is getting shallower and therefore it's warmer so bacteria grows faster in warm water so at some point we will need to face that question in the next two to three years do we want to dredge and how
much will that cost and associated with dredging is how much do we want to improve the the beaches the access to the pond um uh after we dredge um so we've we've done some significant work on that on what the beaches could look
like uh there are grants out there to improve uh outdoor passive Recreation and and um access but again that's a couple of capit capital years down the road so I think I'll stop there happy to take questions um I'm looking for any hands
you know I guess my my question I mean you have a beach repair in a second year at 1.5 million and this is all 27 28 people are looking at and what I observed about those years is the
capital budget is overspent you know so on uh the internal discussions with big buildings coming online um and we haven't yet seen over in the Regional Schools if they take on the roof what will happen to the regional capital
budget so I'm just wondering how we put these placeholders but these many of them are what is throwing the budget um into a deficit in the out years so I see Bridget's handed up that's a global question about the set but go ahead
Bridget and if you want to add to that so that he can respond to all of us sure my question's a lot more specific and it's just about if anything included in this um in this
request um is the is I guess the question is is dredging the pond something that would help with the situation of the pond being closed so often um due to you know to the contamination or the water um with a Col ey and whatnot it seems
like um you know that the pond was closed a good amount this past season and just wondering about that no it's a great question thank you Bridget it's um I think the short answer is um we don't know but it is certainly
not going to hurt it can only help as I alluded to before you know shallow water warms up much more quickly um bacteria grow more rapidly in Shallow warm water um
so we you know the pond depths you know um I haven't looked at that recently but you know over toward you know the cliffs the depth is probably around 12 feet maybe as much as 14 feet but the rest of the pond a lot of the area is anywhere
from six to 8 feet deep and then a lot of it is really 3 or four feet deep and the sediment might be 3 to four feet deep in the bottom of the pond the muck um so it can only help um it is
not probably it is not the cause of of what we're seeing with with the bacteria but it may be a causitive factor it may be part of the equation of of helping the pond to be healthier um I've had a lot of conversations with our sustainability director uh CH uh
Stephanie chorell our planning staff um you know we look at puffer Bond as a as a conservation asset a recreational assets for the town and the region but to be honest one of our biggest stressors here and you alluded to it is that we had to close it so many times
the past three years and and that to me is is really challenging because it's a cooling center on these very hot days for so many families who may not have a backyard pool or may not be able to afford to go to the cape or or the islands or Maine or or whatever to to
cool off when the temperature rises 90° and above so we are really looking at it with that sustainability lens and saying we need to solve the the uh eoli challenge problem but also make a longer term commitment to make sure this
resource is open and accessible to people now and in the future and even today I mean if the water quality was great I I have to admit as a planner and I think Rob would agree with me our staff planning staff and conservation staff would agree um when you go to
those beaches you know it's beaches might be a really U generous word it's it's it's it looks like a 19660 swimming hole and it's not accessible and we don't have uh restrooms there we spend about 8 to
$10,000 on porta potties every year we really frankly with the number of people who visit the main Beach there I think we ought to have restroom um that is accessible um that thousands of people visit puffer Pond every year um I think the numbers probably rival our our our
public pools and so we've got a long way to go to to make sure that resource is is what it should be and and we're looking at it as a cooling center for low and moderate income families who who want to go there
and enjoy so Sarah I'm curious about the um think it you call it an emergency release mechanism um in case of flooding so that's not something that's periodically tested you can't try it to find out if
it's working or or is there some risk that it fills up with sediment and it's gets destroyed by testing it great question Sarah um I'm kind of glad you asked it so we do exercise it and we have exercised it I've been there with
Jason skeles and our staff when we exercise it um it works quite well one of our biggest concerns is not will it open it's will it close um and so that's part of this this
engineering study and why we're going to put divers in the uh in the water the uh the flows the flow structure the the emergency uh release is not as old as the dam um I don't have the year off the top of my head but that was put in you
know in the last 25 30 years so it's not you know ancient like the dam itself but our our main concern is will it close are always our Our concern from a regulatory standpoint is we don't want to lose the pond um
residents uh D would not be happy with us if we couldn't close that so yes we do exercise it we have exercised it but we worry a little bit at some point will we not be able to close it because of sediment buildup or rust or something
like that so that's really the the the the more urgent concern is making sure we can close it and that it when you I'm sorry yeah when you exercise it are you not opening it and closing it we are okay but the concern is at some point
without seeing what's underwater this is a metal steel structure without seeing what's underwater deep underwater and under sediment we don't know what condition it's in subsurface we can see all the you know the the device it's a
it's a wheel it's it's something that our town engineer has exercised through the years but we just we know we can open it we just don't know sometimes always that it's going to close so understandably thank you so um so again I I appreciate I
appreciate the concern about the out years um I know in in past our finance director kind of put those those big numbers in a box um I guess my one in a box at the bottom of the The Joint Capital planning the the the plan itself
the capital plan I guess my concern is we're kind of getting to that point of are we are we gonna plan to do this or are we gonna always put it in a box at the at the bottom and I know it's you know I I like all of you know how difficult capital is going to be over
the next 10 years but we're going to need to make a decision on puffers and you know D reference to a box was a couple years ago we had things we would do if we only had the money yes very high priority things we would do if we only had the
money you know they didn't appear in a column because they threw everything off Sean manano put them in a box at the bottom of the capital plan so and I and again I I think at the by the end of this year early into 26 we will have
more information on the pond through the studies and some of the other work we're going to do there than we've had in the last 30 years so I'm trying to move us toward having all the data we need to make that decision so I'm just telling you that publicly that's my goal I'm not
expecting a yes we will dredge in 27 or 28 but I'm saying with some of the previous Capital money you've given and some of the uh grants we've gotten we will have a very good package to help decision makers in town make that decision I hope in the winter early
spring of 26 so I'm just putting that out there that we will have the most information we've had in my career with the town and and spanning a little farther back than we've had so I think we'll be in a good decision-making Point um yeah Dave my biggest concern is
the the eoli and the other kind of contamination that we've seen uh a lot of the sources of that are Upstream that's what I was going to say and it it it seem seems like unless we can solve that problem first we can't really do a
lot of work on the pawn because we we can't count on it being used and I'm I'm someone that when I was a kid everybody swam in the rivers you know they didn't have pools you know and then Rivers got too polluted and you couldn't swim in them anymore so um you know we have a
perfectly good spot that you could swim in but we can't use you the water is the water quality isn't good enough so I mean it seems seems like that that to me is the the highest priority is figuring out what what the contamination is
sources are and how to stop them no I I I wouldn't disagree the only thing I would maybe add to that Bob is I think we need to do both at the same time um even even if we solve the the eoli problem today I would still or had
it solved yesterday I would still be before you asking about the dredging and and the beach improvements um I will say that you know as I as I stated earlier we are going to start a a kind of a more robust testing program
Upstream in the kushman brook I wish it was as simple as finding a point source but it often isn't we're doing the same type of of thing we're working with the with the university and the Fort River Watershed Association on the Fort River and you know we have high ecoli levels
in the Fort River which have influenced swimming um at Stanley Street at that swimming hole and of course uh the water quality at gr Park where young children wait and swim and and recreate and it took us probably two and a half to three
years to really zero in on the source there so it's I hope it's going to be easy but I can't promise it but we are committed to to working Upstream I will say sediments in the pond might play a role in this ducks and geese on the pond
dogs defecating upstream and people not picking up their dog waste Farm waste Upstream all of those could be factors run off from the State Street and other stream uh other streets so it could be a combination of factors um and if we find
a point source like a underperforming septic system that would be great that would be one of the easier things to kind of deal with um my fear is it's a number of factors that are kind of diffuse in the Watershed hope that's not
the case but we're we're working on it I'm I'm as committed as you are to kind of get to the bottom of that okay but it seems that that seems to be part of the solution if we can't absolutely we can't fix that problem then we can't really improve the the the pond itself you're
right okay there well it just seems that that dredging the pond will help solve the problem not simply by removing contaminated sediments but by having deeper cooler water and you know more dilution it'll you know it's basically a
stagnant puddle I mean if course it's of course it gets water quality is poor so dilution dilution might be part of the solution yeah you know what one of the things you see if you go Upstream to all the tributaries that come down is they're
clogged also you know it's not it's not like there's beautiful rushing water coming down into puffers there's there's sediment and sludge you know so when you said finding the source I mean and there's also I was trying to look at
there's more than one Waterway that's feeding into that pond there are these little branches that come out I mean Dave knows this better than I do but I just walk it a lot and go well where's that one coming from you know seeing that it's also going into the pond but
no I I I I appreciate you bringing that to to a point here and it's a good time of year for for my staff and I to really kind of refocus on on that robust testing um this summer to see if we can really get
to the bottom of one is there one source or multiple sources of that contamination well it's not helping that we've had so many drought years I mean the Stream flow is flows are just lower so well I will I will say it's
drought is one factor but the flashy storms we have actually are don't work in our favor because really that what that that does is is it washes out the contaminants in a very rapid manner from The Watershed and they reach the pond
which is essentially a big tub if you will um behind that Dam and and water does not move out of it very quickly so um yeah the the the flashy storms are not really our FL they're washing all the contaminants from everything from
yards and farms and Roads and Etc all into the river at the same time and I think everyone knows this used to be or you might not know it used to be called Factory Hollow because it was also Upstream were a whole lot of Mills paper mills and other you know kinds of Mills
that were used you know so I mean it's it's got a long history of being able to collect uh different kinds of sediment I guess as a way to say well in closing that we'll be part of our assessment um we have done some Co samples of the
sediments in the pond and we do know that there are some contaminants in the sediments deep in the sediments of the pond that are from industrial um um Mills up Upstream there were you know I think the research that Meg Gage and other folks are doing up there there
were 20 something Mills at least maybe more along that stretch so there are some contaminants that we're going to have to decide whether they are safe to be left deep in the in the uh sediment layers or whether we need to take those out so that more to come on that when the when the time is
right so I'm conscious of time just I mean Rob has been sitting here very patiently but um are there any other questions and we can if questions occur to people we could also send them after Dave leaves us through Melissa
but so we're happy to jump on to the planning for the sake of time sure that I think that'd be great um and again happy to have Rob chime in um I don't know do you want to start Rob or I'm happy to weigh in first and I and have you jump on yeah that's fine go ahead
Dave thank you so starting I I think there's really only one request for FY 26 and again this is um this kind of a a a a reoccurring theme that kind of plays out in facilities conservation and planning but but this has a different
Focus but the idea is that um we H we are trying to seek a reoccurring source of funds for um for basically bringing in experts to help us with a variety of of
um uh exercises um mainly having to do with zoning with Village Center planning to bring in folks who can help us augment uh increase capacity of the planning department and pull together uh information and public processes having
to do with you know what are some of the goals we want moving forward for housing for densification you know we have a great example you know some of the work that uh Nate and Rob and other folks did in the planning staff uh it was a it was
a huge heavy lift to do the University Drive over overlay with with the planning department but that's not always possible to kind of Garner that much you know the number of meetings the number of hours I was talking to Nate the other day and I think it's been in committee off and on for including the
planning board for about eight months but we actually started talking about it two and a half years ago so this money is really intended to kind of help us when needed to bring in experts in the field from other who have expertise in other communities to help us do those
studies work on zoning bring us ideas and and uh samples and other information to help us move along uh goals of the master plan and including zoning and and housing initiatives and I don't know Rob if you want to add anything to that spec
more specific yeah and I and I do want to you know you mentioned the U Drive overlay I just wanted to to note that you know that may be one of the the more simpler you know types of uh zoning amendments we've brought forward where you know we
were able to do most of it inous even though it did take uh quite a bit of time uh wherever we pivot to next uh you know I definitely think you know whether it's Graphics or Dave mentioned you know support to the process uh there there
are going to be studies and uh modeling and buildout scenarios and things that we just we're just going to need some assistance with if we're going to um you know completely put together a a a comprehensive uh proposal or or or
thought to resoning in certain areas and you know just you know not entirely related but some good examples of that type of work you know we recently uh hired a consultant to look at the VFW site and uh you know prepare some conceptual planning ideas and really
help with the public process and we're doing the same thing with South Amber school and I think that you know is just a you know an example of where uh that type of assistance is helpful as I'm looking at uh uh the housing production
plan come into completion this summer and some of the draft work that's being done for the downtown design guidelines it's really apparent that there's you know there's a lot of recommendations in there related to zoning uh regulation that we we have on on the books right
now so uh there certainly is uh going to be plenty of opportunity to pick and choose and prioritize uh where we go and and any of those items uh assistance will likely be be needed um I'm just looking for any questions on this I know Sarah you had
uh for another department question why a study is study is a capital oh I asked this of Dave last year so I already got the answer because this or maybe it was Chris or somebody but I that because this is this is an answer of it um when
when you ask for these well I'll just do it looks like every other year you're asking for this 50 um I think it would be useful certainly it would be useful some for some feedback over time on how those were used because I I know you
also have periodically have had staff vacancies so I've seen this as one of the little a buffer you have that you can bring in a person for for a project that you might have otherwise had a staff person who could do it but that
staff person is not you don't you don't have that slot anymore so is that partly what it's doing is you know there are Peak load times when the St is just stretched too thin and you've got a targeted use it it's it's a question of
me trying to think of how it's it's not a full year staff person in terms of amounts it will buy some modeling and I know Marine Pollock at one point was modeling what if we did and she was doing this elaborate so I was always wondering where she got that computer
package from I didn't know the town had a computer package like that so it it's like are we buying software that we don't otherwise have and then we don't have to own the software because the consultant has it just a sense of how the extra consultant time feeds into
your staff is what I'm looking let me take a stab at that and then I'm sure Rob might want to add to it first off um Kathy and Rob can correct me if I'm wrong but we when we have staff vacancies um I am not I am not aware
that we would use that unspent money for bringing in Consultants that's not generally a practice that the town uses um so frankly I wish it was but that is not uh what our finance approach has
been so um so I and again to to Sarah's question from last year I wish we had in our operating budget some of this money to actually have you know some some ability to bring in these experts and so so a lot of times there are you know
staff have expertise staff have experience but as Rob indicated you know there are there are some things that are just we we don't have a lot of software we don't often have uh staff who can fully build out or model development you
know in a in a Village Center something like that um and frankly you often want somebody who has worked in multiple different communities and is not you know in in in the work that we are doing here to bring examples from throughout Massachusetts or New England to say hey
have you thought of trying it this way and Rob used you know there's examples of us bringing in folks to help us with the uh with the housing production plan with with the VFW we got a great firm out of Boston to to come in and really you know go go very deep on on that
design there and that conceptual design so I think a lot of it is to to to build on the staff expertise but and and again sometimes it's just um it's just a workload there's just not enough time to do this we are we are moving every
single day so I don't know Rob if you want to be more specific feel I don't need more that was very help okay I also saw Bridget your your head was up I didn't mean to cut you off I was gonna ask why these costs weren't in the operating budget and I
think Dave spoke to that so I put my hand back down okay we wish they were but they are they are not for all departments you know and again you know I think you you've met with a number of departments so whether it's DPW whether it's whether it's
planning um you know these we bring in Engineers we bring in Architects we bring in firms that have both and those those levels of expertise can be hugely helpful so um there was one other you know we did in the oute out years if you
will 27 28 uh 29 uh you can see we're beginning to to at least plant the seed with with capital plant that we want to begin to start thinking about and start planning for an update to the master plan um we anticipate this
will be a very robust process like it was some years ago and um we are going to need help to to move that forward and so we put in numbers that Rob and Chris bre um as she eases into retirement
provided from from Consultants out there and from other communities who have who have done updates to their master plan and again these may change a little um with a goal of you know uh working on the master plan you know in you know a
bit in 28 29 30 and and Beyond it's going to take us a couple of years to get that done I'm sure and we asked last time about the Civil War tablets because I know I know what they are and I know the plan is to move them into the library but we didn't
understand why you needed a budget item for it because it is part of the library plan including the installation of them um so um it's still here so I and then the the parking one it's got moved off to 29 I'm just looking at some of the
oute da purely because the oute don't balance so trying to understand why don't I take Civil War tablets and Rob can speak to parking um so my understanding Kathy is um if all goes well with the with the Jones
library and and it is built they have designed a room for the Civil War tablets to be in but nothing else their budget does not include display materials it does not even does not include displaying the actual tablets and that's a very
significant uh piece of this so any work to reinforce that room any educational materials anything like that is really on the town to fund now if all goes well and the the
project proceeds we will be going to C back as well to help with that in the fall um and and again a significant amount of that money could come but to fit out that room will be far more than the 50,000 or so that we've asked for
here in capital so we just had a placeholder there with with the idea that if the Jones moves forward you know Capital could contribute to that and I don't know Rob has looked at kind of the the structure of that room a little bit more
would it need reinforcing Rob I I don't know the details there yes it it would need reinforcing but it so it needs a design first so we need to understand layout and just how the display will be presented in the space and and it goes from structural to lighting and finishes
and ways to support the uh the informational materials that'll accompany the uh the display uh so it's all of that designed through construction of it the space and none of that's in the library budget the project budget it's not okay and as you know I
think the tablets weigh some of them there's they vary but I think in the order of 600 pounds no I know I know the the the designation of the room was because of where the room would be that it could bear the weight you know that was where are they going to go um but so
thank you Sarah does the town own the tablets we do yeah yeah they were in storage for an incredibly long time and then and then Sarah I think when you were on CPAC CPAC paid to have them cleaned you know they
were restored I think that was even before me I remember before you but have gravestones cleaned but no but they were restored to their current Glory yeah yeah I believe we did restore them using CAC and they turned out beautiful I mean
the restoration job was was well done um so the only other thing I think was maybe to speak about Downtown parking and I think that's in 29 or 30 Rob I I don't know the details of that I I think
go do you know any more about that than I do yes I mean at this point you know we uh we know we've created the the overlay uh on a on a parcel owned by the town we we've done a uh update to the structural Capac it of the boltwood
garage uh with with a prior fund that we finished up maybe a year year and a half ago uh so the the thought was where do we go next so you know there were questions about other locations uh looking at uh improvements to other areas and that would be you
know that would be the next step you know where do where do we need to look next knowing that we have this information about the capacity or the capability of the bolwell garage we have this overlay and then we have obviously identified all these other uh parking areas that uh you know could see
improvements or be utilized differently and you know that's do you know whether there's been any approach to Amis College to use the Alum light lot that's behind boltwood in which would be out of sight of buildings you know in terms of
building up and but convenient for for everyone in town I it's a you may not know whether it's it's been on the list I think it was at one point on a list um we we have Paul and I have spoken to to them through the years and and that idea
actually I think that idea predates Paul I think it goes back to Larry Schaefer um but uh we have spoken to ammer college about that and kind of planted that seed that we'd be very interested in working with them um I I think it all kind of depends on their master plan for
their comprehensive plan for the uh for the college and what they see for that area but um it definitely comes up Kathy in some of our meetings is you know they're they're pretty generous with with it now informally for us but could we formalize that in some way um and I
think that's the direction if they were agreeable uh we would like to go um thank you any other questions consideration plan you know I I just started looking
at the oute on some of these and puffers was the big one that jumps out at you um you know these others are in in the small smallish range as I said I think the message if I if I could would be my goal is to try to
provide you and and the council Conservation Commission the town with as much information as possible by the end of this year early 26 so that we have a a body of knowledge about puffer spawn infrastructure that we haven't had
and so we'll have Dam Dyke dredging sediment beaches images uh conceptual images of what the beaches could be like we already have those actually um and then we are in the we have to go for the
dam and Dyke repair grants we will do that and to Bob's point you know simultaneously trying to address the um water quality issue is is a given it's just a given so I I don't mean to say that we're going to be focused on all of
these other things and not water quality but I want to give the town the comprehensive package and that'll help with decision making and that'll hone in on what is that real number in 27 28 29 what's a real number for dredging and
Beach improvements it makes sense so I'm not seeing any other hands up um so and I I also want to welcome Hala I didn't call out your name when you came in to make sure you can hear us but I did see you joined
us um well I think you joined us um thank you yes I did and I can hear you okay yes I can hear you so the committee has any other questions you know in in the days and weeks ahead you know certainly Rob and I I think that was very helpful and thanks
thanks for preparing ing the charts for us and for spending the time with us appreciate all your time thank you thank you thank you all so uh unless you want to stay for the rest of this you you may
leave I may listen in but thank you all so you know today Melissa has been adding things to the packet so last time we had vehicles and buildings added I think the only other one we might be missing unless it was added today and I
didn't double check is there was an update on the 10-year um debt schedule in terms of debt we already know about and and she was revising that and that's that's it it doesn't necessarily inform any decision we need to make but it does
give a a a picture of how tight these out years become um when the big the the larger building projects come on and Bridget and Sarah I mean Melissa can correct me there was um trying to look
at what the regional might be coming in on you know what we what we put into this budget for regional we don't have to make a decision about it but we put what's been voted in the region in and to the extent there's a what does the region look like for 27 28 29 and 30 um
you know when if the roof is in you know I Melissa can't remember what you said did you grab the numbers I I updated um not in your you know your spreadsheet there but I have updated in three other
places that I have to keep track of the the um debt numbers um the Region's debt amount and so I had gotten from Jill um several months ago uh Jill being the treasurer for the um Regional School District um their estimates um and th
those amounts were updated um a while back and I think that when the region voted their actual debt for fiscal 26 it went up slightly up I think it went from like 412 to 485
it wasn't a significant increase I mean percent wise I guess it was but it compared to the other debt that we have um relative to the um Elementary School in town debt it you
know I just I just made that small change and so I'll have to update the actual amount um and I can um follow up with Jill if to see if her out years have changed because of that or if it was just this year um and her estimates
are are close in the in the out years um but I can update um the the summary plan um with with her debt and I have started to work on the um 10-year debt stuff and
I did put in the new number for um fiscal um 26 um for the debt but I have not completed that because Jen and I um are are still working on some numbers and
we're meeting next week with um with our debt advisor um or fiscal adviser for for borrowing for the municipality to um sort of lay out some some what we some
actual debt that we will issue in May so I'll have some estimate some better estimates on those numbers in May um you know in the next couple of weeks and so I've sort of hesitated to put anything up and then have it change and then ultimately by the time we vote all this
our numbers won't be accurate anymore but I just want them to be as close as I can get them since we're making those decisions right now so I see both Sarah and Bridget have their head up because there's one other I I just want to make one other remark and then go to you at the coun meeting
on Monday night uh we voted to decrease the amount of capital available for this year and that from 10.5 to 10% so that takes about 30 so Kathy I I don't think
you actually voted that you voted to change that in the amendment and the amendment hasn't been submitted yet so okay I understand that there's the notion but so that there was a vote in the amendment so it's potentially we potentially have $300,000 less than what
we've for FY 26 for FY 26 fy6 just FY 26 it's so we potentially have that and I have no idea when that will be confirmed and it might not be confirmed before we finish what we're doing so we we work
with the 10 and a half okay and and Paul in the final Capital Improvement plan that goes to the council either that either is adjusted or not but that's a just something to be thinking about that's about a $300,000 less than what we've been
looking at so both Sarah and Bridget you had your hands up I just wanted to give that piece of information Sarah know what happened my hand Bridget um I was just gonna say I'm not sure how much this committee knows
or not but our facility's director spoke last night at the regional meeting and he said um that the folks from msba had been in um and they'd looked at all the roof in that the area over the
pool in the school um you know qualify for for replacement under their Grant we're in a certain phase of it maybe Sarah can tell the exact details but that's looking very positive the um Auditorium section wasn't covered in
that and um yeah that's all hopefully I don't know what numbers this the projections are based off of but um hopefully the number that we have to put in for that is smaller than what's projected that that would be great um I
just mention I just mentioned that as an unknown yeah Sarah I just wanted to say I the regional committee has spent zero time looking at out years and not even very much time really looking at next year that's all
our attention really is on the operating budget but I do recall some really horrendous looking numbers for years ahead and you know I think people just kind of been shoving things shoving things that way uh so we have I have no idea whether
any that's accurate or still needed or you know what the assumptions are um one reason i' sure love to get the operating budget settled is that yeah there's among many is that there's you know I I do think it would be good for us to
spend a little more time looking at the long range Capital yeah and Sarah what I remember is that table that you're talking about there was one of the fourtown meetings that said when they put roof rep in they it was a very big number you
know and I know it wasn't even a this we know this is the number so so Nat um and so I didn't mean to I I didn't mean to segue into Regional which we don't know but you know I want to stay focused on FY 26 and what we think about the
various projects so n right so on that point FY 26 I just want to make sure I understand your point about the 10.52 um 10% in the context of 26 and so am I correct sorry for possibly a newbie
question here but uh as I understand Melissa's um uh funding summary so at the bottom for FY 26 uh there's a um over under uh kind of under available funding of
485,000 so are we saying that we're adding potentially 300,000 to that so it's it's more like 785 that we're that's correct that's correct you know if and it's that that uh Cash Line If The Cash Line goes down you know that that The Cash Line
after we pay for debt the the potential line the 5.5 million for new projects if that goes down and we still have the same project list you're absolutely right then then the overage goes up right you know as long as we have all the projects on the proposed list so so
I do want to say that um as as bad as it is being over by the the almost 500,000 it was like 480 something I can't remember now um the um when we were talking with Guilford we reduced one of his projects by um
$240,000 so the over under there is is around two two 230 or 260 right now um if you if you back that out and so I can update those um and I know that something that we're going to talk about in a minute Kathy is um you know update
those summary numbers with that that one change that um Gilford had said that a project had um been reduced in um when I had the the spreadsheet up at that time I mean then as you decide um you know
that maybe some projects get pushed or something like that that number will get will get better you know so for example if based on what what he told us I'll just stick with that one we thought we're not ready to spend that money and turn that money
over then the the his his lowest number would go to zero and on some level Wipe Out the deficit we're looking at because it was a $500,000 ask um so I have a few others if anyone else if if anyone else
wants to jump in but I have had a few others I flagged as we went along that um I'm not sure I would support I don't think can I ask a process like a pro higher level question yeah sorry Kathy yeah so so we're going to end up with a
list of recommendations and after we deliver that report you're saying there might be less money available than we thought so do we are I I don't remember what was done last year should we flag
any projects as as cut these first if the money is short or do we just that to the town manager you know we've we've never had this dilemma before but I think that would be a smart decision you know if if the money available should go
down these would be our first level choices um to take out either take out all together or move to the next year you know e either way um the other thing we can do and we were asked to do um in
general if we move something off the list or reduce it we were asked by the finance committee to indicate should there be surplus funds when we close out the current year in the fall where what
would be the top priority to put more money into you know with uh you know these two or three things um so we can also I think we can and should write that in this report so one one thing I heard when um sh was here on the M the
sixth grade move that she asked for 350 but she'd feel a lot more comfortable with 500 so that was one of the ones I flagged as a high priority for extra money if extra money becomes available so we we can do both s you know I'm saying in in a direction of should you
need another place to look this would be where we would suggest moving first um we've just never had to do that before the the task was much more what what Nat just identified can we wipe out the
deficit and so how how might we do that rather than going beyond what we're looking at so I um we have it's 518 and I'm just double let me just double check um there are there are two people in the public
so I do want to reserve some time for public comments but I thought we could begin with anyone who wants to step in with a um are we happy with most of the projects except for you know a couple that we're not sure that they they
deserve to be on uh as high a priority list given that funding is tight and in that context Melissa early on said she only flagged one for debt um that was the million dollars on the communication
equipment and if she could have she would have made it cash so we could also think of you know can we convert that you know we don't have to say we're just getting to zero we can also say any project we question We can question you know we don't have to just balance this
year's budget so I in any order that anyone has and I'm willing to start if no one else has any Targets but that sure um just I was looking at kind of the larger amounts um
so the ones that uh um so first in Information Technology the disaster recovery we had 180,000 there and I think in the discussion that day um we thought that there was a grant that was available so
we most likely would not need that 180,000 yeah so I mean I mean I just know from what my conversation with Sean is that he feels fairly confident that he will be eligible for some um well that he's going to apply but the
application to apply for that isn't open yet so we won't know before this process but he did want to sort of um and into any amount um I'm not sure when he said I can ask him when he said the um when the application will be known but you
know that's the full cost of the project and he is you know he's feeling fairly confident that he'll um get the full amount but sometimes I I'm familiar with that particular Grant sometimes a lot of people get the award and then you only get 75% of the project or you get 50% of
the project compared to your the competitors um you know and how much money is available so similar to this process he's in competition with some Capital money from the state for these kind of projects and you know if there's a lot of requests for the similar things
they may all get awarded uh and applied you know fairly among the communities so um maybe that's one that you star because he feels fairly confident that
it will go away but it is something that I think he feels he needs but you know the the hope is that he doesn't have to ask for it at all but he didn't want to to not put it out there and then not get the award and then you know be out of
luck right and so the other the other kind of larger amount I flagged and correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the um the public works the Southeast Street intersection design that was requested as $500,000 I think we were told that that could be reduced
to 260 yep and I did reduce that kind of um in in line um and that's what I talked about earlier about how that the the bottom line deficit was slightly less now because I just when he said it could
go to 260 I just changed it right right there on the on the spot and then but I would say let's stick on that one because I wasn't sure and this is this one here right yeah okay so my concern is whether we're really ready for the
grant at all um and when I pressed him on could he go lower he said no this is his bottom line and if we if we do something simpler um in the next year than what he was talking about because we not we haven't really decided what we want to
do so you could spend a lot of money designing different options so my question was was also Nat should it go to zero um you know or or do you think it should go rather than go to zero maybe go out to next year if you're not
decided on what next year and then may maybe um Bob you're on TSO but maybe it could also be flagged as if there's surplus funds and we're ready then then then fund it but don't fund it at this point because if we fund it it will get spent
is another way I would say that these kinds of studies you can eat up the money really quickly um with a design that people might not want and and that and I think we should be avoiding that and I also thought The 6 million out year was a guess and it we we would
never go there so hopefully we won't when you look at the next line out on the same one that at six million right I don't think we're going anywhere toward a $6 million change change and there is some grant money or there was so so that
was just my um and Bob I don't know what whether you want to weigh on this moving it to an outy year the next year I'm comfortable with moving it I think um you know we we still are is it not clear in my mind that we really know what we
want to ask of Guilford to be honest with you um and so until Tso and the council gets a better Direction um you know in place I I don't see how we can spend this money
um but the other thing is the roadside mower I have a note in here that it was 250 in FY 27 and he wanted to move it up into FY 26 is that correct Melissa or I think
the roadside mower was asked for in 26 and I moved it out to 27 because I it was kind of in line with what I we we we sort of didn't allow a lot of vehicles
so because it was that expensive I called it a vehicle and I moved it out okay and that and that was like that was me you know that fair I just did it and so I wanted to give him the opportunity to
say that wasn't um that's not what was requested Bob were you thinking of bringing that one back on to FY 26 I wasn't thinking of doing it it's just that I I recall uh Guilford saying he wanted it for FY
26 yeah and he did he he needed it sooner rather than later um and I I'm not even seeing I'm just by eyes are there's the dump sand or the pickup he's got a lot for next year well he's got a lot he's got six
million [Laughter] there sorry so do you want me to to change these things sort of as we talk about them I mean do we want to talk about um moving south street or yeah I if
everyone would agree I that would be my recommendation to move Southeast Street and should we you know maybe compromise a little bit and move it out a year and make it 300 um just because by next year it'll say it cost more so you start it
at five we'll bring it I I'm just trying to be you know I would keep it at 260 you know because I've seen him do some of these studies for less money than that you know and and if he's if he's doing something simple he doesn't even need that much
you know if I don't think he needs that much be with you but I'm seeing I'm seeing Nat Sarah and Bridget if we're all on the same topic you everyone should weigh in yeah n
Nat I'm nothing more to add on that one yeah I just wanted to add on that that I thought I heard Guilford say that okay if you put it you know reduce it to 260 I want the 140 the next
year you know it's but maybe I only imagine that or I misunderstood so I'd have to go back to the meeting I don't I don't okay well I actually what he said is that with at 500 some of the construction and serious
design work could be done yes um first he was just going to build I won't say a plastic model a model of the whole area and do some surveying but some more serious work could be done with the others to to start to get closer to
construction um so he wasn't giving up on the design side of it and the modeling and with 260 he was just not going as far as he could go right if but I just I thought he he was willing to split them so if we
move move them both one year right and that's the what's the construction you know is it a $6 million construction cost or is it a 500,000 construction cost you know what's a roundabout cost if we only have one um so I I just yeah I I'm
comfortable you know I I did I didn't think he gave us a very good answer on why 260 was was as low as he could go and nor what he would do with the extra money and um I'm just worried that we
might he just gave us a design with three roundabouts four roundabouts with a lot of detail in them that caught caught everyone by surprise because there was no discussion before that went into that um it literally no discussion so it just
arrived with a very long report that someone paid for I mean meaning the town it wasn't paid for it some some bucket paid for it in the DPW land um so I did just
I worry about do so my word my recommendation would be to shift it and leave it at 260 and next year have a justification for the amount that's needed and if it has to be higher great um I agree okay that would
be mine Bridget I'm um so I agree with everyone about the southeast intersection I guess that's the main thing that was going to say and then the second thing I guess is just a process question I I like Nat's approach of going for the big things
first and so when we're ready for that I have more to say yeah and I have another big one too so if we're ready for this one I think we've done two things Melissa um and we'll write this up if so if Paul doesn't agree with us he can see what well you'll know what we've done
but the six million would shift then too yeah I mean I don't know what what number we need for six what number but that next number that he's got for FY 27 goes to something smaller um you know just in terms of your out years and
trying right so what do you want me to put in there I don't know ask maybe ask him for um what's his best guess now that we paired down from what's his best guess now that we know we know we're not at four roundabouts I guess that's the
only thing I think we know for sure but just a good number and if he says six is it there's nothing you can do about it so Bridget next next big one okay so the next big one I thought was
facilities they still had 500,000 somebody said from unspent from last year and then there's the request seemed like it doubled and 1 million just felt very high for something so undefined so I
felt like we could reduce there and I have one other big one I don't know if we want to go one at a time or not let let's do one at a time because um when they just all all to to I can't remember
which at a followup meeting they said um they gave us the town hall slate roof was the Target and it could easily absorb all the money they've got even if they went to CPAC um that was the answer
to why they needed it's not so you're right it's a million and they already had 500 so it's 1.5 million is what they've got um I didn't know whether we're really ready to do that or not and they indicated that they could approach
CPAC for another part of it that that wouldn't even be enough money to do it was what they came back to us for on uh what their priority was I think Nat Nat asked them could you give us some sense of what your top priorities were if you're asking for a million dollars and
the answer was Town Hall's roof was what I heard when they came back and can I can I just say that both Jeremiah and Rob's office are leaking from the roof there are buckets in their
office so you could see why maybe that's a priority for them so it's a real concern so I just want to say that out loud and um and um I think they provided and it's in um I it's in an older packet but I can
um forward it to the committee if you like they did a priorities list that include Town Hall as the roof but I think it's um close to 10 million dollar in repairs that they you know if somehow the roof couldn't get done for whatever reason they would um shift the money to
these these other high priority projects they did give us that I think it made it into the packet but definitely showed it and that's well right but it made it into the packet like after the fact so it may not have been things that people were looking at so I can forward it again and I had a question on some of
them like the north Amis School roof you know there are a few of them that you know if you that I'm not sure I would rank it that high but but yes they get they did give us a list and it added up to 10 million um so any reaction to Bridget's thought and Bridget I didn't know whether you were thinking of take
it down like to 700,000 or to take you know of something less than a million um yeah I guess I was thinking 500 because that was the request last year as well and it seems like you know that
they um they still hadn't spent that part so then I don't know okay Nat and then Lee yes I I think I know where brd's coming from because I when we first got that request I was sort of unsure what it was
really all about but then when I saw the follow-up memo and saw all the buildings and um realized uh there's a huge amount of work that's required and a million dollars won't even get that far so in my mind that doesn't seem like such a big
amount in the context of what's required and especially as Melissa said if things are actually you know leaking and so forth so um I was not as troubled by that uh 1 million after seeing the the follow-up memo and all the the buildings
and and the priorities that they have Lee well the only thing I want to add to what Nat has said because I vividly remember that meeting is every time you start and stop you
incur costs so if you have a big project that you know you need to do it's economically responsible to do to understand that it's a big
project and organize it in that way Sarah say two things I first of all they should do the roof all at once and borrow for it I would also say that the town hall at least and maybe not any of
the other Town building that need work can apply for CPA funds um and perhaps are already planning to do that and and of course it has to be the exterior you know they the requirements for CPA work that could
certainly contribute to to the roof so I mean it as someone already said it isn't enough to do all the roof and it's a waste of month not a waste it's certainly inefficient to do part of the roof so why don't you forget about the roof here's seven
$50,000 or something to work on all the other buildings and just propose the roof separately as a as a single project no and if and Sir if if they if their estimate is it's over $2 million for the
town hall roof um they have to start talking soon to CPAC on you know is there a million of that at CPAC or you know what what what in what is in the realm of possibility right right you know you you you don't have a good idea
um so but but the other thing you just said is if we put this if we keep this should it be borrowing rather than um cash I think is what you were asking no I was saying if you do the whole roof and borrow for that because that's like2
million dollar or at least more than a million dollars but so take like out of this a million that they're asking for take out what might be roof money because that's not the way to repair the roof right it doesn't make sense to do
so defer the roof and have a lesser amount of money for the other building repairs especially since he didn't this year ask for uh he's doing a com combination of the everything else is
you know pointing up bricks fixing an interior lighting by $750,000 that's taking 250 off our total you can do a lot of work other than on the town hall
roof so so so let me just feedback what I think you said this isn't enough to do the town hall roof so using that as the rationale for the million doesn't make sense um you know it would need to be more and borrow it
but 750 enough with the 500 they don't have they already have that they have in spent to do a lot of the work they know they need to get done and maybe do enough planning of to get bids and know what they need to do with the town hall roof so they get a good sense of what
the price is on it you know have someone come in and do the S is is that where you were going is don't this it's not enough for Town Hall roof so it shouldn't be spent on on any repairs to the town roof because it's not enough and it's inefficient so you know maybe
there's some planning money but I mean anyway yes you basically got it okay so and and just let me call them Bob and then you know I'm sure we're making Melissa really uncomfortable with it
juggling with large large leaking roof project that's the only question I have is is what is you know how how dire is it is the roof I mean do we have to replace it right away um or do we can we wait I don't know um and you know maybe
we need to go Circle back to the facilities folks and and and get a get a read on that um it would be good to know what we can get from CPAC um before we commit to some amount for this um you know it would be very
helpful to have a as as someone suggested I think Sarah you know get a good estimate of the actual work and then see how much of this we can cover with with CPA money money uh versus cash capital or even
borrowing so and and CPA may borrow that that money too so so Bob Bob I believe they said they they have reports on each of the buildings they looked at so maybe what would be helpful for is us to actually get the report for Town Hall I
mean I I know I shouldn't use our Farmhouse with a slate roof as an example but we had a slate guy come and he flew drones around and he fixed every single slate that needed to be fixed and we no longer see daylight through the
roof it was fix but he said most of the roof is in pretty good shape here's what you need to do so I I just Jeremiah seemed to say the whole roof needs to be replaced but we haven't seen a report to to that to the to understand that yeah
what I heard was they had to put something under the Slate so they had to take it all off put it on you know put on some something a barrier of some sort and then put it back and so when they take it down they'll yeah be able to
reuse some of the slates yeah but that that's tricky so that's what please please hand us up as don't do part of the get ready to do all the work if you're GNA do some of the work so I'm gonna be brief because I'm not
sure that this is really relevant but listening to all the conversations and seeing where the national situation is and where the town situation is
budget wise might the town or the entities want to think more about creating independent 401 c3s to be friends of various entities to support particular
projects that the town the state the nation does not want to support okay that that does take us friends of slate roofs indeed friends of friends of town hall well there there was a big brewhaha
when we repaired Town Hall rather than built a new building because uh it was expensive so Bridget um yes so I would say I know Kathy you said your idea was from your own house but we had our facilities guy talk about the Middle
School roof last night and he said that was exactly the strategy that they were using they waited for the thaw and now they went up and replaced tiles that stopped it from leaking on children's heads and having the buckets which you know is the situation at the middle
school as well and the um when the building folks were out who came in toward the building the msba Specialists they said that that was the best practice in the meantime while we're waiting to replace the roof and I guess the second thing that I'd want to say on
it is like sadly like it's not just the middle school and um and Town Hall that have the same leaking roof problem I know it's a thing at DPW and there's black mold and there's um you know you know we close
the building due to asbestos Wildwood isn't still a thing but maybe there's a need for some sort of rank order or some Fair process around how those things get done as opposed to us just being like yes let's pitch in for the roof and I do
feel really bad for them having the bucket but like this sadly is an ammer toown building situation and the very last thing on facilities I would say is like there were a lot of there were a fair amount of buildings on that list that like I'm wondering why we're doing
upkeep or what we're doing or could we be selling them or other things and like it was a long list of buildings but we don't use every one of them so um I don't know I'm I think that's a side point I'm not sure that's actually
relevant but just came to my mind now I my my sense is they had a rare part of consultant money that could do a inve look and they they they did all the buildings but yes you know would would you list all those buildings as um
at a crisis level of being a top priority we didn't we didn't and we don't have time to have that kind of discussion um the council should so I can can I just make one more comment about this so I do want to remind the committee and of course you
can so one what do you want me to do with the number but two I want to remind the committee that this specifically was vague and not and didn't have a project attached to it and the only reason that they had a project attached to it is because the
committee asked for that and so I think that you're stuck on the roof because that's like a priority but they had a priority method that they wanted to do and they did ask you know we we asked for a big number um because it there are a lot of priorities
and their priorities were to address emergencies um and then um focus on the envelope of a building so you know basically everything from roofs Windows um pointing and the outside to create
efficiencies so that the buildings are sealed better and therefore AIA efficient and then the next phase was to go into um you know heating cooling wiring those kind of things and that was their their idea is that the that
anytime that you um sort of say this is for the roof then then if something else happens like the hva V HVAC system breaks you don't have the money to Pivot to that that issue I'm just making up
stuff here I don't I didn't read the the report so I'm just you know kind of creating scenarios and then the other thing is that when you go to do a roof um you're you're going to be up there near the sofits and um and you know you're you're going to see that the
window that nobody sees that it's at the top that needs to be fixed or there's repointing that needs to be done on the outside of the building and so while we're concentrating on the roof because that is a priority and and when they gave you their list of priorities
um it it was at the top of that there are other major projects that would be in the million doll range like there's some issues with the back parking lot here at Town Hall um that needs to be redone and the the back wall of that
supporting wall that's holding the the parking lot away from the building next to us um had to be emergency fixed uh a few months ago and so they've talked about redoing that whole um landscape which then brings in the 88 issues of
the entrance to the side of the building which was compliant at one time when they last redid it but is not compliant today so I just want to remind people that this million is could be used in many ways and they just want the flexibility to address the most urgent
need um and the the reason the roof came up was that was the you know what they were thinking I know that the the back parking lot and the roof are the two major concerns that they were hoping to focus on first but I I do you know I
recognize that Melissa in terms of he talked about the big bundle rather than the little bundle last year he had a little bundle for roof and he had something specific for North emeris fire station and a bunch of other pieces so now we trying to bundle up but his bundle got bigger than the total ask
last year so it was sort of a startling going from lots of small pieces so I guess I see both Lee and Nat and it's like what Comfort level we can certainly write up a long paragraph about this no matter what we do that there wasn't
enough specificity and yes they came back and saying oh Town Hall roof because that'll take all of the money and so surely you know so um the the question is do we want to reduce it at all or leave it with a long discussion
about it um I guess that that's where I think we're hearing Onna the and the long discussion there was the Sarah Sarah version of it where you know it could be used for a lot of other things maybe we're not ready for the town hall roof and go do some more research on
getting CPAC money for this and as Melissa said it's got other pieces so there's Le hands and Nat's hand up and it's 549 so I I have one other project I want to just mention and we don't have to talk about it today but you can talk
about it next week so Lee and then that you you're muted on mute I defer to Nat always Nat uh pressure is on me then so I think
um so if we had $250,000 kind of the table uh related to that roof or other uh work I just want to propose um an alternative uh which is also a fairly large number $200,000 which was requested for part of
the lease for the electric school buses and as I understood that proposal we had a choice of paying $200,000 upfront um and a smaller annual lease payment um and I don't think that we
save enough money to justify that $200,000 upfront lease payment um in particular when it changes something changes that $200,000 from a kind of an annual uh budget item to a capital item and
moreover uh because if this bus is also going to be used by the Regional School it seems like there's an allocation issue there um as well so I would um what I know now what I understand about this I would favor paying the 10year lease at a higher amount and not having
that $200,000 in the current capital budget so I just you know that's getting us into a new topic and I there is such pressure to do leasing this way Nat because the leasing we can't afford to
buy them and this this spreads it in a way that really helps the school so I think that that is what it it may be not dollar-wise a dollar to-dollar match in terms of doing it one way versus the other but it's also a service contract
we're buying with this you know they're going to maintain the fleet they're going to do the charge station upkeeps so it was a lease that was getting us a lot um as opposed to putting it back on an operating budget and maybe I
misunderstood I thought that we're gonna lease it either way for 10 years the only question was whether we have lower lease payments and a higher upfront or not yeah so Sarah you can jump in as I recall this the 200,000 is not buying a
bus or it's it's installing the charging infrastructure right so it can I it's yes it's actually both so this particular company um installs um
electrical infrastructure um at the at the at the parking lot for the school buses um and this is a these are all all busing equipment is owned by the ammer public schools versus the region schools
and they have an agreement where they charge each other to and from for those kind of things like they're all stored at the region but they're owned by the um ammer school and then they when they use them they do um they bill each other
they there's a billing offset and so this leasing company that um we've been working with um they build out an infrastructure to charge um we own one electric bus they're going to lease three more um and they build out an
infrastructure for charging for those four stations and then enough underground infrastructure that they could add charging stations should they um contract for more busing to expand the fleet if necessary and there is um there's a service contract you know just
like you if you leas car you're not responsible so the only repairs that they would have to pay for are the tires um and apparently this is a big deal because the um the the the repairs for an electric
bus have been quite costly and and I've heard that from other um fleets here in town where the uh repair on electrical Vehicles is um different and more expensive than say a traditional gas um vehicle um and so they really like that
model and this company is offering something that sort of builds both at the same time and so they're leasing both the infrastructure and the bus um from the same company and getting m a maintenance package on both of those
things I'm I'm seeing both Net's handed up and Bridget's hand and it is uh almost six o'clock so um I I suggest that this conversation on this particular one get continued next week
um I think there's actually a a strong argument that for keeping this the way it's set up and I think just people should articulate it better so we can write about it and the one I wanted to flag and I won't be here to discuss it so I'll just send my notes in to Sarah
is the 500,000 for banks I don't think we need to do that it's not it's the banks just got 208 2.8 million to do all the structural things that were important this does some additional I'll call them amenities you know on some
additional pieces there is the potential that some of them when they bid out the contract may be taken care of and when they talked about the boiler and the design for boiler and said it's about 6,000 Stephanie told us she can do that
under her sustainability Grant so at first I thought of lowering it to 60 to 80 which the the number we got for Designing the boiler but we were told two months ago three months ago that there's years left on this boiler which
is the reason they didn't include it and I'm not talking about last year I'm talking about what Bob December or J January this was January yeah this was February this wasn't yesterday and so so I think this is both too high a number
and not on the uh the roof is leaking the wall is falling down um you know people can't breathe we're doing air we're doing all the big things so that was one I was just going to remove and if if it needed to get lower to 60 but then Stephanie said she could put it
under her budget and that she was planning to Melissa when I asked her about that design so so I do we want to have consensus and I'll I don't know whether anyone else has a view about that that was one that was my Spiel on that
one okay Sarah's got a thumbs up on it I agree so I I suggest you continue doing this next week um the notes on it have Flags several and if anyone else wants to do anything and then Sarah can collect all of those and Melissa is
doing changing the spreadsheet as we move along so we can see what we've done um well we should have just solved the problem taking 500 we certainly solve we might we might have solved Melissa's not wanting to have the one one million
be borrowing you know so that she could do it all out of cash to not you know so there is that interaction and we have uh four minutes left so it is it all right for people I see whether we have participants in the audience that would like to make a
comment and we're down to we out we outlive them um we're down we're down to one person um so we're open for public com ments of of our one attendee would like to raise a hand uh the hand did not go up so um so
I won't be here next week I'm I'm really it's actually impossible for me to be here even by Zoom because of where I'm going to be but I um I started what I don't think everyone heard I started working on the report just in terms of a
shell structure um I will send to Sarah with FY 26 put in um the list of residents so we have to talk next week it would be good if you talked about which of any of the resident proposals you want a flag in
some way and Melissa we haven't heard back from Guilford he said he would take a look at them I have not heard from him so he might he might or might not if he doesn't the report will say we asked for feedback and we didn't get it yet at the time we were writing the report we can just put that sentence in so we we have
that and then we have whatever oute discussion we want want to have and then what um if there's extra money so I mentioned the one thing on the sixth grade move if if there's money you know and if we lower this enough there may be
money that we can just do directly here and Shannon said she'd feel more comfortable with and I'm not checking my modes whether she said 500 you know but it was I think she said an extra 100,000 I think she said $450 like an extra $100,000 or exact words I think Bob yeah
so an extra hundred so if going to 450 would make her more comfortable um so I would suggest those would be potential areas to focus and what anyone wants to raise on any of the others is fine and I
will be able to view Zoom after you all talk so n oh I just a a procedural question who will be revie reviewing my minutes um if you I fly out on Monday at 7
o'clock at night if you get me the minutes by Sunday night I will review and complete them if not I'll let Sarah do that I will I I will do I will do Bob's which I already have if Bridget gets me his and what I M basically done
is every once in a while there's formatting and if I thought there was a discussion we didn't capture so we have the zoom to look at or we have our own notes so this is trying to capture and and I can send you if you don't have it n a Word document of an earlier one that
already has all of our names in it yeah no I have all that okayy could you send me that one because I know you had said there was a format and then I didn't find it okay so I'll just it's literally I'll send you um this the S one that was
in word you know just on a because it just it just sets up to follow the agenda Bridget and then you don't have to retype all of our names which always RIS that you'll misspell somebody's name or I always misspell somebody's name so I think it's six o'clock
amazingly we we did an amazing am we did amazing amount of discussion in the last 45 minutes I must say so then then the following week when I'm back we might be at the point where we're actually putting the report together if you can
get fairly far on on reaching agreements um I'm unlikely to disagree with any cut you know I I assume that I should continue to edit the report after next week's meeting for you you no you should
and what you'll see is you know unlike previous years which made it easy as we went along there was enough time to get feedback from the town manager and staff and if there was agreement to change something but some of these things I I don't think we're going to get agreement
on so we're going to just have to say some things changed our recommendation yep and then here's our recommendation of additional changes we'd like to see you know so that we like all the projects with these five exceptions or whatever however we want to do it so that's a section that we've never
written before um we could always say say thank you for making all the changes as we went along so I I need to go maybe we have scho Commit is everyone good with adjourning and just raise their hands we voted for to adjourn we are
adjourned thank everyone thank you take care bye