--------- All right, we are recording now, Kathy. >> Okay, good good afternoon everyone. Today is the March 4th meeting of the Joint Capital Planning Committee or we're no uh known as JCPC. And my first order in calling us to order seeing that
we have a quorum is to make sure that everyone can hear and we can hear them. So, I'll just call out names um as I see them on my screen. Eugene, >> yes. >> Andy, >> yes. >> Lee, >> yes.
>> And Jill, >> yes. >> Okay, it's great. And Bridget volunteered to be the minute taker for today. So, she we will get her if she comes in late, we send everyone the the
transcript or the video. And Jill Andy had did an excellent set. So, anyone who's taking minutes, I'll send Andy's as a prototype and uh that will be posted soon, but I'll send the word document. So, I'm turning it as always
over to you, Sean, for the projects and you can tell us who's coming first. Yep. >> Um, >> sure. That's great. Um, so thank you. I sent you all the table of what all the projects that were requested versus what made it into the plan. I did post it in
the packet as well. So, if you have any questions on that, let me know. And I have been getting questions from different committee members, and I'm putting them all into one document. Um, and then I plan on tackling as many as possible tomorrow. Um, and so
tonight we have conservation, we have planning, and we have facilities. So, I'm going to bring in uh our department heads who will speak to that. Davis Ome's going to go first for conservation. >> And Bridget, um, just I want to welcome
Bridget and make sure she can hear us and we can hear her. >> Oh, hi. Yes. Can you hear me? >> Yes. Thanks. >> Perfect. >> Dave, so um why don't you kick it off and um walk through the projects you submitted.
>> Sure. Thanks. Thanks, Sean. And thank you for having us today. Just to remind everybody um um about our functional area. As Sean mentioned, our functional area includes conservation, sustainability, planning, inspection services, and facilities. Uh
I oversee that functional area with with other department heads. And um I believe you've already heard from Stephanie Chicarella, our sustainability director. So, that one is checked off the list. And as Sean said, I'll I'll say a brief couple of comments about conservation
because we really don't have many asks in FY27. And then Jeff Bag, our new director of planning and economic development is here, as is uh Jeremy Llant on on um facilities. I just want to say, I mean, this is an extremely
collaborative group of staff. We work very closely together to identify needs and develop uh solid approaches and reasonable budgets uh that address town needs. So that those are really our goals always is to kind of align our
projects with stated goals that are coming through the town manager from the council be it on sustainability on facilities buildings economic development and planning. So I think you'll hear about some of those today. you heard about some sustainability
goals we have working on through um through Stephanie a few uh weeks ago. Um so on the conservation side, I don't have any slides today because I really think there's there's really only one item in the FY27 uh list that um has
been identified to be considered to to be included in that year. And uh that is a plow for conservation staff. I believe it's at $10,000. Um just to give you a sense, um you know, uh we have over 2,000 acres of conservation land uh in
Ammerst. Um the current plow, I believe, was recycled from parts of plows from DPW. It's probably 15 to 20 years old. Unfortunately, this winter has taken a tremendous toll on that plow, and it has
basically needed to be soldered and welded back together. Um it is it is an antique. Let's put it that way. Um since CO we have heard through our survey work and and through the work of our field
staff that people want to get out more and more on our trails. That's illustrated, no question, by the the usage of those trails. And frankly, they want to be out people want to be out on those trails in winter. So we need to keep some of the parking areas clear.
Um, so throughout 25 and 26, this incredible winter that is not quite over. Um, but maybe we're getting into spring weather here in the next week or two, we have had to plow numerous numerous times. Um, just to give you an
idea, we plow uh just a a short list. Amethyst Brook. We we plowed two parking lots at Puffer Pond, Sweet Alice Conservation Area Parking Lot, Mount Pollock, Lawrence Swamp, ODC Katherine Cole, and the list goes on. And so my
small staff in winter is responsible for doing all of those parking lots with about a 15 to 20 year old plow. We've asked for $10,000, which would buy a new plow that would be probably used for over a decade. So, we think it's a
reasonable investment. I I'm anticipating there may be a question, why doesn't DPW just plow the parking lots of conservation areas? And it's a fair question. I think the answer is honestly DPW has a tremendous number of
responsibilities um for sidewalks, for roads, for keeping hydrants clear, and the list goes on and on in winter. and it's just not realistic to ask them to get out there and plow these in any reasonable time
frame. So, uh we have kept this plow together with with band-aids and superglue and it's simply time to buy a new one for the next decade or more and we really need one and we'll plow these parking lots uh for the next uh many
many years. So, that's our small ask for a plow. Any questions? Andy, >> so when you're talking about a plow, is that a plow blade basically that you're putting on the front of a truck or is it an entire plowing
vehicle? >> Oh, yes. Thank you for the question. It's just the blade. It's just the It's just the uh the plow equipment to go on the front of an existing truck. We certainly uh >> I figured $10,000 that's not all you were going to get. That's just for the
plow and and uh the various hydraulics and and apparatus that attaches it to an existing uh truck. Yes. That we already have. >> So, um are there any um Sean, can we ask is it is this a good time to ask about
some of the future projects since this is the one for FY27? >> Yeah. Yep, that was a good time. I I was Kathy if I could I was going to give a brief overview of Puffer's Pond because I know that's in an out year. Was that what you were thinking Kathy or did you have other question?
>> There there I I'll just rattle off so you can So um so in an out year you've got Puffers then you also have a playground, you have a Mill River and then further down the line uh were memorial and my only question on those
is why they don't go to CPAC rather than to the capital plan. the outy years are not balanced is the reason I'm asking. Um, >> sure. >> So, >> let me my question. I think those were my questions just looking for. And then one
question that came up I think Jill may have raised it is trail maintenance. Again, that's not this year, but why is trail ma maintenance not built into your operating budget? Why is it a capital item? So that's ju I'll just those are
that's a smaller number. That's a $25,000 or in that neighborhood. Okay. >> Sure. I can go through those very quickly. Um so why don't I start with Puffers Pond. Um very quickly um we are embarked on a multi-phase effort up at
Puffers Pond. We've we've had some good press on this. We've had some good meetings. Our first phase is really public safety. So, we have uh received a uh $250,000 grant that we've matched with some old
capital money for assessment and uh design or improvements at Puffers Pond. The dam and dyke. There is both the dam, which everybody is very familiar with. When you when you were on Mill Street, you can see it. It's lovely and picturesque and and all of that, and it
holds back all of the water to make Puffers Pond. And then there's a dyke structure which is also required from a public safety standpoint at the pond. And so we've embarked on this uh project to assess those two structures. We're well into that now and we're actually in
the design phase. And these are really public safety. Um the Puffer Bond is a what we call a high hazard dam. Uh the dam is in fair condition. The dyke is in poor condition. Uh that sounds bad on the on the dyke side, but it really is
is not as bad as it sounds. The dyke uh uh plays a different role in in uh the safety of of the pond and downstream residents. So our main focus there is to design improvements to both of those structures and that is as Kathy said in
the out years we will be looking for some matching money. There are significant funds for high hazard dams and we will go after every dollar possible to try to bring in state funding for the repairs to the dam and the dyke. Uh I will tell you right now
the dyke being in poor condition needs more work and just to give you an idea this would be in the in the um in the um the range of what we call hardening. We would need to harden that dyke. It's an
earthn dyke and we would need to basically bring in stone and other materials to harden that dyke to make sure it's safe and does its job now and for every storm we can anticipate in the future. Future phases of buffers, we've talked
for many years about dredging. Uh I think it's a community decision that will be before us a few years down the road. uh do we want to keep this wonderful swimming area, recreation area, uh usable? And I think a question that'll be before the community like
many other communities in Mass would be, do we want to invest the money to dredge it? It is filling in. It's a it's not a natural pond. So, it fills in with sediment every year and that's evident there from the aerial photography and also from some of the uh sampling of
sediment that we've been doing out there. Eventually the pond becomes any unnatural pond built pond will become a wetland. So that's in the outy years and that includes some beach improvements and some other u similar improvements
but again those are a few years down the road. Moving on um playgrounds Mil River and War Memorial um we definitely need to be thinking about those two areas. Um on the war memorial side, we're you know we are
focusing this year on um replacing the very old uh bath house at War Memorial. But in some of the the design and conceptual design work we did around the high school community field and War Memorial pool, uh we talked about what
will happen if we do build a a brand new bath house. What will happen around the bath house? And I think that's still a question to be answered through planning and community involvement. Uh, do we put a small spray pad there? Do we put a
skate park there? Do we put other exercise equipment there, playground, whatnot? So, I think we're we're talking about that. DPW recreation and planning are talking about that. Likewise, if we go north to Mil River, um the Mil River
uh playground is is quite tired and old and and not safe and not accessible. Um we do have some some older CPA dollars that I think we intend to spend on a conceptual design for that playground.
But again, we've been investing in Mil River. We redid the tennis courts, the basketball courts. Uh we've done some work on the on the playing fields. We've done of course some work on the pool and I think at some point these are just these are these are investments we need
to make in that incredible park that serves thousands of people every year and the playground will need replacement sometime in the next five to six years is my guess. Um, >> could I just say could would you
>> and my question was not so much do we need to do something but why not apply for CPA but CPAC money for those? >> Oh, let me let me finish on both those uh on both of those projects we will be applying for CPA dollars.
>> Okay. >> Um I think >> Sean knows this and I I my guess is Kathy knows this. I am a very staunch supporter of using CPA funds. Town projects as many town projects as possible should go through the CPA lens
and I will continue to be a champion of that. Um and so absolutely we will be seeking CPA funds for War Memorial Playground or or Mil River playground. Trail maintenance is something that does
go through CPAC as well. We've we've um we've been successful at getting CPAC money there. We have 140 miles of trails. Um just to give you an idea, bridge bridges, uh bog bridges and real bridges over perennial streams and
intermittent streams are extremely expensive. Um think $40,000 for a small bridge and go up from there. a new boardwalk. Uh if you're familiar with Larchill Conservation Area, there's a boardwalk there that was put in in the
late8s. It has been there since the late 80s. It's served a wonderful purpose, thousands of people, but it needs to be replaced. And I'm guessing it will be north of $100,000. It might be $200,000 to replace that. So, there's big costs
in some of the bridges. Trails can be maintained by seasonal staff and our our small summer staff, but bridges um need to be done by professionals and they're expensive. Always we we try to go through the CPA lens first and then we sometimes will
try to match that with capital dollars and of course we always go for grants. So that's my quick run through of some of the other needs in the outy years. >> That's great. I don't see if anyone else had. So, that answers my questions.
Thank you, >> Sean. Who do we have up next? >> All right. Uh, next is Jeff Bag, our new director of economic uh, development, who's going to talk about uh, three projects he submitted. So, Jeeoff, you
can uh, take it from there. >> Great. Hi, everybody. Um, thanks for having me. Uh, as Sean said, I I submitted three requests. Um, and it seems like in the spreadsheet you have access to that. Um, all of them were
reduced a little bit uh right from the get- go. So, I don't know, you know, if the committee has saw the original uh request or narrative or allocation. Um, that would be important to touch on, but I don't know what order they're in either. So, I would start with economic development. As Sean said, I'm the
director of economic development. I'm also the director of planning. Uh so wearing kind of both those hats. The economic development planning is an effort that um really feel is essential for us to bring to the forefront of of
things happening in Ammerst. And so the request originally was 125,000 to embark on a on a process to do that. And I think the revised number is 100,000. And I think that will work. I think you know I think we want to stick with that
request. Um the amount was based on you know research from other communities. I have some uh experience you know as a as a private sector planner doing a couple of these types of projects um that was listed in the in the
application form. And one thing that's noteworthy is this funding would go to actually create the plan. Right now, Ammeris has a master plan of course, but there's no economic development plan or strategy which everyone is kind of working towards in terms of common
goals. And so, this is this is an important document that, you know, the town really should have in place. And so, I've started the effort um already with some previous capital funds to update data uh understanding the current market conditions in Ammerst. Um that's
sort of getting underway now. The data that we had was from 2018 and 2020. And so that data is old sort of on its surface, but also with the pandemic, the so much has changed with the way um
people are are spending their money that that that data is really outdated. So this plan it, you know, seeks to kind of have a a consultant come in and help us um to have community engagement sessions to to continue to deep kind of have a
deeper dive into the market conditions and and the things happening. And I could read this. I don't know if you want me to read the the summary, but >> um >> we we actually got them, Jeff. We got both a blurb on them, but we got your original as well. >> Perfect. Um, so the idea with the plan
is to actually have a strategy and some action items that the town can be working towards, you know, let's say 10 year over the next 10 years. And so I put this in um it's really important and I think uh the funding through uh this
committee and the town will allow us to advance that sort of quickly which is uh super important at this point. So I'll take why don't we take questions as well everyone can say questions on this or do you want to wait till Jeff goes through all three it's up to
everyone are there any questions let me ask that way my one was I think you answered this would buy a consultant's time that would be what the plan is and then the consultant would also support community
out we when we first when the first council came came in. We had an economic development person and we did a year-long process where a lot of data but not a lot came out of it. You know, there was a strengths and weaknesses kind and a strengths weak a SWAT
analysis on it, but >> yep, >> not much came out of it other than um small small town America, the various forces that are hitting the commercial side, you know. I mean, it was good data, but so but this would be
consultant mainly. That's what the money would be used for. >> Um yeah. Yeah. I think uh you know, I think Kathy, your point's well taken. I think that that process was incomplete and unfortunately now even the data sets and the information that was gathered then is outdated. who I've tried to
bifrocate it already so that the data collection can happen using some of the the previous capital money and that that first phase let's call it is also going to help us have a road map kind of the list of things that the these people who
are experts in this field you know are suggesting we should explore you know A through F all these different things the plan is really important and the consultant help is to really figure out action items to move forward. And so
that's where I think the previous economic development director just didn't have enough time. He he left and then the pandemic happened obviously. So we're really picking that up. Um there are some really well-qualified experts out there who you know will look at
Ammeris and we we want them to be very very specific that they're looking at Ammerst um the uniqueness of it you know with the you know all the unique features which you all know. So, um, this is a project that I would like to initiate as soon as possible. Um, you
know, we would structure a request for proposals and there would be an opportunity to have input on what we're asking for, but I can't really advance that part of the process without securing some of the funds necessary. Lee, >> I think this is all fine and in the end
I will vote for it. But given the history of Amoris activity, I'm not optimistic that all these plans will eventuate in any actual events happening.
>> Yeah. Well, I hope that I hope that's not true. >> We want success and we want some some activity and actions to happen. Yeah. So you know just one quick example is the village centers there's a lot of emphasis on downtown which I think is great but the village centers that we have really nurtured over time there is
no clear path forward there's no direction there's no identity there's no there's no momentum uh for for projects to move forward in those areas and a lot of it is going to be data driven and understanding what's viable and what's not viable and so we really want to focus on that.
Uh, Lee, do you have a followup or did your hand just go back? No, >> I didn't. No, no, >> I completely agree with Jeff and I hope his view is correct based on past behavior. I'm not optimistic, but he's younger than I am. And
>> go Jeff. >> Okay. So then I see both Andy and Jill both have Andy first and then Jill. >> Um, yeah. I'm just in terms of the the scope of economic development is that is
that focused on you know generating revenue for the town basically is that is housing part of economic development or is that a separate thing? >> Good question. I would say it's a little bit of all of the above but you know I also want to be really careful that we
want to support existing businesses. So that's a component. You know there's a lot of questions that we have about existing businesses and uh visitorship. So, so understanding how many people are coming to Amoris is data that we don't really have currently available. So, that's some some of the data we're hoping to gather in this phase one.
Phase two is what do we do with that? What types of businesses can we bring to Ammeris for new growth? And then what can we do to nurture existing businesses? And then, you know, I want to be clear that there is going to be a component, you know, of our of our
hosting UMass, you know, to understand that dynamic better. um we need to kind of embark on this plan. We need to get people on the same page and kind of rowing all in the same direction. Right now, it's not clear to me that everyone's rowing in the same direction
in terms of economic development, but I do think tax revenue is really important and critical and there are opportunities for that, but we don't have clarity of as to what. So, what type of new businesses could go where to generate tax revenue? We we got to get clarity on
that. Um and then the last part is housing. Yes, housing is in is part of the equation for sure. Housing is necessary to bring in new businesses and it's also produces tax revenue, but it also has some impacts. And so housing has been really clear. There's been a
clearer focus on housing, but all the remaining activities are not we have nothing really to draw from in terms of saying that these are our goals, our priorities, and our actions. Jill and Jill Jeff I don't know whether you
heard but Jill is traveling so her screen is dark but she is with us. >> Okay, perfect. >> Yes. And can you hear me? Okay. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Great. Um yeah, I I agree that this is something I would really like to see happen and I think I see the the value
in it. I wonder a little bit about the I guess long-term impact of a of plan. I I sometimes get concerned when it's, you know, putting a bunch of money and time
into something, studying something and then moving on. And you already you kind of referenced like an interruption in the last after other work that was done that was similar and then you might have staff turnover and and that kind of thing. Um, I'm not really explaining
this well, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I I almost would rather see like an evaluation plan or some way to build in because because there are so many external factors too that make the
the situation or the context change. I I would I would love to see methods for assessing things like this built in to operations like regular day-to-day
um internal operations versus needing to go to outside consultants and spend these big chunks of money periodically when you know we are never sure if we're really going to get our money's worth um or if there will be an impact and again I hope I hope there will be here and I
think with good staff guiding things. Um, you know, I I would be hopeful that this would have an impact, but have you considered ways of bu here's my question. Have you considered ways of building in
evaluation or assess assessment of economic factors or things that you're going to be trying to get at in this plan into annual work, you know, or annual, you know, reviews of this kind of thing. Jill, that's great. I mean, uh, we've
thought about it. I'm sure the community has thought about it, but there's no mechanism in place. And I would I I think it's a great idea. So, I would argue that that's something that we want to talk about and have in the plan. So, that's an action item that comes out of
this whole economic development plan is to measure metrics to to monitor this and to understand moving forward. I think staff doesn't really have that capacity at the moment and we don't really have that launching off point to say like that's what we should do. We don't even know where to start in terms
of what we're measuring. Um and that's one of the key things that's kind of the data phase one and then you know there's probably 10 or 12 things that we need to identify are are really important for us to do moving forward and that's the kind of thing that would come out of this
planning effort. Um you know there's other things too. You know, I I just met with a a person who wants to to to establish a business in Ammerst, and believe it or not, we don't really have a welcoming package. We don't have any
one place to to talk to that person. and we don't have a set of resources to give them, you know, I'm collab collaborating with the bid and the chamber, but that's just dialogue between us and we're going to shepherd them in and give them some resources through the chamber, but we
don't really even have a welcoming package for for new businesses. And that's the kind of thing that we want to identify as a community as critical and important and then and then work towards that. Um, so those are just quick examples, but Jill, I appreciate that. I think it's something that we we ought to
work for work towards, but I don't know that it happens first without kind of gathering this this other information and kind of setting up. I think that would fall within the scope of a bunch of different activities. >> Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think yeah, if the if if it can involve
an inward look as well as an external look, I think that would be great. Thank you. >> Great. Yep. >> So, I see Dave's hand went up. Dave, is it all right if I call in Bridget first as a Bridget. >> Hi. Yeah. So, um I was at the community
breakfast I think at the start of this year when the chancellor announced the economic development initiative and I was just wondering like how does an effort like this intersect with that and is there a way for us to be
collaborating to reduce costs for for um for the town overall or that type of thing. So >> we'll certainly >> plenty of researchers and people who can pull data and come up with things like that. So just curious.
>> Yeah. Um it definitely has to intersect with what the university is talking about. I I mean I'll be very candid with this group. I mean we're we're underresourced when it come when it when you compare to the university. So So even our data collection we have no
data. um our plan, our action items don't exist. And so the university is already like they already have a lot of that and this their efforts this the the community development initiative is is as a result of them spending time and money on developing their plan and so
part of this is really to catch us up. Um they want to be at the table. We have the strategic partnership agreement with UMass. So there so there's definitely going to be an opportunity, but when I'm talking to my counterpart at the university, we have no document to refer
to to tell them this is what we want to do and here's what you want to do and here's let's meet in the middle. So Bridget, it's like really just catching us up to speed as a community to to be at the table appropriately kind of with UMass Ammerst College to Hampshire
College and and there's a there's all those um really critical stakeholders that are kind of asking you know in my first three months here um everyone's like well what's the priority? What's your economic development priority? and I have a few, but like my talking point
has been this economic development plan is my priority to get a community-driven plan in place. So, I'm hoping that it can be front and center and something that you see develop over the next say 12 to 18 months and then we will be at that table kind of corresponding with
the university saying you have your goals, we have our goals and here's where they meet together. So, hopefully that answers it, Bridget. >> All right. Thanks. Um, Lee, I see your hand went back up. And Dave, do you did you have something to add? Said I >> Yeah, if I could, two quick comments.
One, Bridget, it's a great question about the university. Of course, I wanted to add that we also have a strategic partnership agreement with the university that staff and the town manager have developed and and negotiated with them. And that includes an economic development component. So
we, as Jeff said, we definitely want to be communicating with, collaborating with, and understanding what the university wants to do and and what some of our goals are. I just wanted to also say on on Jill's question a moment ago about, you know, I thought that was a really good question about what can we
do ongoing. And Jill, what I wanted to, you know, one one component of economic development is, as Jeff said, you know, our bread and butter is housing, right? And it is an economic driver for us. it it it provides more tax base uh for the
community and I think we've done a really good job there of of gathering data on housing right we have the housing production plan we've done many housing plans through the years and that that's given us a base a
foundation to make decisions moving forward but as Jeff said we don't have a lot of data on visitation we don't have a lot of data on who comes here to start businesses or to visit or or uh spin-offs from the university, etc. So, I think housing is a good example of
where we've invested time, energy, consultant money, but also staff money, staff time, and we've been able to build from that. And I think, as Jeff said, if we have that baseline, then we could keep investing in that through staff
over time. So, I think that to me is a good way to think about our investment here. Thanks. >> So, Lee, I see your hand is up. Um, and then I just I'm conscious of time, so we have two more of his projects. Lee,
I think your hand is up. Lee, your hand went down. I didn't mean to talk you out of >> down. Yes, it >> went back down. Sorry. So, so Jeff onward. >> Great. Thanks. And so I think what I'll
talk about next is the Wildwood School campus reuse um proposal. And so just again noting that the original request was 125,000 similar amount, but it was proposed to be reduced to 50. And so I do want to have
a little bit of crossover with the with the third item. So I'll just mention that really briefly. But the third item was sort of it was called site readiness planning. And so that was requested at 75,000 was also reduced to 50. So I do think through this dialogue I don't know
this committee well enough. I don't know if I'm asking for too much. So a little bit of cross discussion I think I would like to bring in for the last two possibly merging them together. Um but for Wildwood um the school, the building and the the
campus around it um you know the the time is right now to start understanding uh the future use options for that for that space. Um, arguably it's a little it's a little late. Like we're we're already a little bit behind the curve as
to where we would want to be with with understanding that the new school is going to, you know, be open um next seme next next term in September, whatever. um the planning to talk about that as a community and understand the implications of having this space. You
know, we we want to start that in Erns, which is why I kind of frontloaded it. Um, in my first set of requests here, um, I, in the narrative, I explain that I I was, uh, the planning director in East Hampton for six years, and
literally on day one of my taking that job, East Hampton was um, about to have a prop um, debt exclusion override to fund a new school. Um, and the community voted for the funding for the new school, and we started a process in
2018. um to start examining what to do. Um in East Hampton, it was quite different. East Hampton had three different elementary schools, three different buildings, and they were embedded in the downtown. So, the first effort was really to create a downtown strategic
plan and really laid out the the components of everything. But fast forward, it took until 2022 to actually get to the stage of having um you know disposition of the property and the property transferred from the school
department to the to the city. And so Ammeris is pretty much pretty close to that point. And so the funding sounds like a lot at the original request of 125,000, but it's really um to be able to engage the community and have
meetings and talk. It's a little bit more it's a little bit less about what do people want to see there and it's about understanding the costs and trying to evaluate the the building and what's financially feasible for the town to
pursue. So um my other experience was in a in a community on Cape Cod um similar much more similar to Ammeris where they have an ele school. the the thing that we brought on, we brought on a consultant team to help facilitate some meetings, but we also had an architect
who could understand the questions coming. You know, the should it be a senior center, can we keep the gymnasium? And having the architect on board helped us put um estimates of probable cost to that. And it was super
important for the community to start to understand the cost for some of these scenarios that would be most common. And then you know there was an option to demolish the building and there was a cost associated with that. But ultimately this costbenefit analysis is is where we are going to be at after
some community discussion. So my long-winded way of saying I think that 50,000 would be is is a little too light. So my proposal if the committee and I don't know how this works if the committee would entertain this is taking that second request and merging it with
this and calling it Wildwood and and general site readiness. So I don't know how that works Sean or Kathy but >> yeah they could committee could recommend that. So um Jeff and I spoke a little bit about this. um he and I weren't able to connect earlier in the
process, but um but yeah, that I think this is a good time to raise that and the committee could recommend that in their um you know, in their final report. >> So, I would imagine there'd be some questions. I'm happy to try to answer them. >> Bridget,
Bridget, Eugene, Jill, and then I'm going to put my hand up after we get through the three of you. >> Perfect. Well, thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Jeff. Um the first question you an answered that I had which was we the seem like there's a lot
of overlap so um your response already got right to that. Um I think I I mean I support this very much. I would say there's a lot of discussion in the community about this question and so the time is right for it and I think there's
that question of like how can we use it so it one serves community purposes but also maybe um like can also bring in some revenue. So I I I like this project overall. Um, I think I had one question
that may not be for you, but which is for Sean and one question that it that is more general. It says um arms in or that the middle school and arms in the um in the proposal and um and I think
that that um that building now has to be used for like 10 years for an educational purpose. So, it is part of like the MSBA grant um roofing project. So, I was just curious about that there.
>> Sorry, Bridget. Um in the in the Wildwood reuse one. >> Yep. Exactly. >> Let me take a quick look. >> Well, yeah. What is that? >> Which includes Wildwood School, Ammerst Regional Middle, and other public and private property. So, the second
question I have is about >> Okay. I guess Jeff, did you when you included those other um properties, did you is it because they're all sort of um adjacent to each other? Was that the thought process for including >> Yeah, I don't think we were necessarily
including any kind of evaluation or change of the of the middle school, but it is it's it's kind of attached and so it needs to be acknowledged as part of the site planning effort that it it exists there adjacent to where Wildwood is. And so it does also say the public
and private property. So there's the tennis court, there's some other there's some other areas attached to and that's why we call it the campus. So I wasn't necessarily suggesting that we would evaluate or study it. But I think any proposed reuse of the Wildwood area, whether it's the building or the site,
has to acknowledge that the middle school is right there. And so we just wanted to be more inclusive. >> That makes sense. >> Yeah. Perfect. That makes sense to me, too. Thank you. Um, and then the second thing is on the chart that you'd shared, Sean, it's there's something called TNC
funds. And do you know what TNC funds are? >> Yeah, that's the transportation network money. That's the Uber andyft funding. Um, so that's like a separate funding source that we have beyond the typical funding sources that it's actually going to go away eventually. Um, but we have
about $100,000 right now that we can use and it's got to be used on things that support the transportation network. So likely sidewalks and um traffic coming things like that. Um where most of the Uber andyft takes place. >> Super. Thank you.
>> Yep. >> Okay. So the order I saw the hands go up. Jean then Jill then Andy. >> Hi Jean. >> Thanks. You guys all hear me? >> Yeah. >> Yes. I can. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Just a a question. Um because I
know there's been a lot of um attention paid to the the Wildwood building itself. Is there are there any existing engineering studies around the the suitability for reuse of the building that already exists? I know they've looked at um HVAC systems being um you
know in a in a condition that um you know is one of the the decisions to actually have a new school. I'm just wondering if there anything that can be reused from all of that work. >> Yeah, >> I would Well, if I um and Kathy knows this, too. I think um Jeremiah will be
able to speak to that shortly because we did a a facility assessment of it. >> Okay, >> Eugene. So, we do have good data on, you know, what's you know, what needs replacement in that building and what's in good shape. >> But that's not any kind of reuse. I just want to be clear that that's kind of the
existing conditions. And so, you know, having, you know, the opportunity to bring in an architect, you know, they can look at what could happen within the building, but then that by itself is not enough. What the community really needs is to understand how much it would cost to renovate that building to something
else. So that's I mean I would just really be also candid with the committee you know in the in the kind of working with the team you know that's that's $50,000 by itself just to bring a a professional architectural architectural team along for the ride to kind of go
through the permutations of the different potential uses and then understanding the costs and so you know that's why I would be lobbying to kind of um somehow get that final amount up from 50 to to preferably around 100 at least to to kind of really allow us that
full scope of having the community engagement and also having like a professional set of architects who can do some cost estimating for us. >> Cool. Thanks. And Bridget already asked the other question that I was interested in. So I'm good now. I just, you know, just for Jeff, I'll just jump in just
quickly because if I can send people what happened in East Hampton. I mean, they did have the three schools and they ultimately went out for an RFP that said it kind of said you could keep some of these buildings if you wanted to, but you could also start from scratch, but
we would like this is what we would like the outcome to be. And I know there was a lot of work that went on before the community was willing to make that statement, but it wasn't a you have to save some part of this building. Um, so there were suggestions about the gym,
the cafeteria, and meeting places. So, you know, I think this process would lead to what choices do we have? Um, >> and where do we want to go? So, I just and I have a I loved the East Hampton history actually on where they came up.
So Jill, >> um yeah, I think this is great and I I my main question actually was the same as Bridget's um about the middle school and that was helpful to understand that but I am I guess maybe just a quick sort of general question because I I it feels
like planning the use of buildings and site assessments and getting feedback from stakeholders and the community feels a a bit like business as usual for a town planning department. So just in the interest of as I'm sort of new to
this understanding fully um I'm just wondering if you could explain what makes this project an outlier in your department and then as such eligible for capital funds. >> When you say outlier in my in the
planning department meaning why would we need to seek the additional funding? So we >> Yeah, this it seems like this type of work would be business as usual. Um and work that would be, you know, part of your regular
budget. Um and so yeah, I guess what what makes this something that would not just be budgeted for and planned for as part of the regular course of work? >> Yeah, that's fair. The painting department budget is just personnel. So
there's there's a few staff people. Um you we could certainly convene a group a meeting to talk with people and understand what people want to see. But immediately from that point on we need we need assistance to evaluate the
building compared to what people say they want. Um there's a series of competing needs throughout the town. So obviously Jill, you and I'm I'm not trying to preach to the choir, but um conversation about a senior center, conversation about keeping the gym, um
you know, do we demolish the building? Could we build housing there? Is there some other use? This extremely quickly un like goes beyond what a typical planning department does. Um and we really I'm trying to give Amoris everything I have. I I've been through
this in East Hampton. I worked um at the for the town in Cape Cod and I also had another project was in Southbridge where they looked at a building that was a senior center and they wanted to understand should they keep it a senior center? Should they build a new senior center and it immediately moved into
territory of having at least an architect involved with um evaluating ideas and and understanding costs. Um here you have site planning. So you have access um you have the neighborhood around it. And so you really want to
bring in a team to really help evaluate this and walk the town all the way through the process to to look at the look at the full picture. And as you might know, like we're we're pretty busy. So the planning department staff all have many other projects. And so my
my role would be to facilitate um the consultant team to to get these answers for the town of Ammerst. Um that's where my area of expertise actually is is to bring a community through this discussion, come out the other side with uh a clear path and we
are going to need money um to do something with the building and so there's that next step of grants um and opportunities for funding to actually take that next step. So, um, you know, even just facilitating that, this is this is a big endeavor already just to seek the money, seek the
consultant, bring the community along and actually have an outcome. And so, I spent uh all almost every day of my six years facilitating the process in Eastampton. I'm not an architect. I'm not an engineer. Um, but we were pretty successful with that project. And um I
know I'm kind of just meandering a little bit, Jill, but I I do think that this is well beyond what a planning department would do. If if you relied on us, this could take a couple years and we would we would need additional funding and support from from teams who can actually look at the condition of
the building again um and really put up some numbers because that's really what it's going to come down to is some of the costs for the community to to really explore what could happen here. Hopefully that answers it. >> Totally. Thank you so much. That was a really thorough and you know very
helpful to understand that piece of it. So yeah, thank you. >> Thanks >> Andy. Then Lee. >> Yeah, I um I was wondering what other kinds of site readiness you were you were thinking about doing, but I I agree that this
site is the most crucial. So, it doesn't really matter to me that much if you're going to try to if you're going to have a limited pool of money and um you know, this is this is one of your areas that you're looking at. It seems to me that that that it's urgent that we
get a sense of it and and the cost benefit piece piece of it. been to a lot of sort of visioning sessions where people are sort of blue skying it and you know, oh, I I I really prefer this or we should save that or whatever and you're never comparing, you know, what
you're going to have to pay for it and what you're going to get out of it, you know, uh, fiscally. So, I I'm encouraged by that piece and I do support um the the merging if that's going to help that happen. >> Okay, great. Lee.
>> Well, as I said before, I I want to support this. Um, I don't at this point actually think it's even about the money. I think it's about the will and the imagination
to envision something that will actually happen and make it happen. And I don't think the town has a long history about success doing that, but I will
support this and I hope it works and I I I thank you for conjuring up what you have done. Thank you. >> Thank you. Well, I'll I'll take chair's prerogative to say I'm thrilled
that we we actually tried to get this started a year ago or two years ago saying you yes the school hasn't said the school is available but I saw that in East Hampton you started talking about what what was possible um two
years before the schools were going to be declared s and also we have a just for every the the town has something called a surplus property policy, but there's a you know the town has to decide the town if the school doesn't
want it, the town has to decide we don't want it, you know, are we going to use it for a public purpose or are we going to turn it over to private and what East Hampton did both to bring the community together around concepts and then I think about two years into it, you knew
what basic idea of what you wanted to do and then there state money to facilitate doing you know the the lee the doing of it rather than it just sat on somebody's dream table it actually went from the ideas congelled and so I think merging
the two makes total sense because so my one question is do you envision because when we talked about Wildwood the suggestion was and the town managers seem to support it an ad hoc committee of a few people so they would be whether
it has any councils on it or not, but it would be, you know, in as part of the engagement process that I think that you had something like that in East Hampton. I don't know what you called that, but it was, you know, a a subgroup and it wasn't count all counselor. In fact, I'm
not sure any counselors were on it, but it really helped the planning department do a process. So, are you envisioning that be being part of this is my question. I I certainly could see how that would would work. I I'm not responsible. I
don't I don't have the authority to form a group or suggest that. I think it would work. And Dave, I don't know if you want to chime in, but my my jumping on this, you know, I started in December and when we we kind of had a couple discussions and this is other than that economic development plan, this is this
is a huge priority. This this really should start as quickly as possible. If we form the committee and they don't have access to any funding or any opportunity to to really answer the questions, then we won't be doing anyone a favor. So, this this idea is to start
with the funding. But, Dave, you unmuted. Do you want to talk about the ad hoc committee? >> Yeah. And I I know you want to move on, Kathy. But absolutely, I think what Sean and and Jeff and I have talked with Paul about is his interest and and support
for some sort of committee being appointed. um in in the near future. You know, we've got the DPW building committee going, which is a little bit, you know, clearly a different focus, but something like that to work in parallel and in concert with the effort that Jeff
has just outlined. So, I know that's on Paul's mind. It's just um getting that going. >> And my sense, Jeff, in East Hampton, it was actually the council then set up a reuse committee, whatever it was called, but it was it's part of it. So, that's fine. That answers my question. Yeah.
You know, because even the in envisioning of it, um there are some people uh who have had concrete ideas about this and just trying to get them on the on the table would be great. So, I I think um Andy's
hand is up and we've got I think we're good for time, right? >> Yeah. I think like >> Yeah, that sounds good. Andy, um just in terms of the the committee versus the
um the study, I you know, I I I would defer to to to Jeff and and his team on which is going, you know, is the committee going to be more effective once you have the expertise in place to give them things to to commit to or they become more of a
reuse committee as you said, or are they there trying to brainstorm at the same time that you're hiring consultants to come up with information. So, whatever. >> But you don't want you don't want to waste money, right? >> Yeah. >> I think we'll work we'll work closely with the town manager on that. I think
if this comes from the school to the town, I believe that committee would likely be appointed by the town manager. If it was a working group or as you said, some sort of ad hoc committee, Kathy, something like that. So, I think
Paul has already talked to us about that. So, that's high on his priority list >> and I think it doesn't preclude the town from starting. I think you know I think we are like as Jill kind of noted I mean we could potentially facilitate we could bring in a team and start facilitating
some discussion but it it so quickly turns into costs. So, we want to we want to start that discussion and then the the ad hoc committee or or any type of committee would really then be helpful in deciphering some of that information
and making some of the some of the round decisions about like okay paths forward and then we we lay out a process which I haven't laid out the process. I I think that process is still to be determined but really kind of getting the ball rolling was was really top priority and
I'm happy to hear the merging. I I at the taking my advantage of being new, I would wonder like if there's any ability to slightly increase the amount or to get it back up to that original request. If we're, you know, I'm basically essentially dropping the third site
readiness proposal, the funding is the key thing. And I don't know if there's any discussion of, you know, 100,000 for this project will work, but it might not really be totally sufficient. That's why I had that that other number attached to it. But so being new, I wanted to take
the take that opportunity to ask. >> So I'll I'll describe Oh, once we hear from all the projects, I mean, I think I've got that down as notes. So my question would be is 150 better, you know, you know, in terms of,
you know, where but we we have to balance the budget. Sean has given us one that's almost balanced. So it's going to also be you know which other projects could be less >> uh so that this this the total of these
two could be more. So it it interacts with that and we're advisory to the town manager. So we do we do our best to come up with a rationale on why we think something should happen and Sean is a direct route to the town manager as you
know so he's taking notes too. So, so that's it's interactive. Jeff is what what you know we we heard that merge the two and potentially go higher than a 100 is what and and then allow it to be only focused on Wildwood. And just so everyone knows this is 14 acres. This is
the school is on one little piece of it. It's this is not and it's as a site it's already got water, electricity, you know, everything you need including parking lot. Um, so it's it's an
incredible sight to think of what could be there. Um, and we shouldn't let it just sit and lock the, you know, put a key in the door and let it sit for a number of years until nature does its course with the building. Yeah.
leave. I just again I don't know if this is appropriate for JCPC because we have a limited mandate. But it's, you know, the long term is where is the political will and
do we have any say in making that go forward beyond just voting? Well, so far our history has been if JCPC recommends it, it tends to have happened. >> Well done. Okay. >> No, it tends to have happened. So it it
is us deliberating. We have this meeting, the next one, and then we starting we're at the end of the projects really trying to look at the whole set of them. And so this is asking is there an extra amount of money somewhere that could make this project
bigger and then potentially have you be a two two-year kind of project where you're planning on how to um get something done over a two-year period um >> and turn it into an action project which would be my hope. Yeah.
So I think that's yours. So we're then Sean, are we then Jeremiah? >> Yep. Uh so the next uh the next and final presenter tonight is Jeremiah who's going to be doing uh facilities for the temp. Jeremiah, do you need to
present anything? Um do you need access to share your screen? >> Yeah, I I am I I it looks like I have that ability. >> You already have it. Okay, good. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, thank you all for uh being here. I'm going to share I have
put together a presentation for >> and just so everyone knows Jeremiah is head of facilities and he's over all of our buildings and that includes the police department than the two fire departments. He took them over a while ago. So their budgets don't have
building money in them. They just have vehicles and other kinds of things in them. >> Yeah. So, let's get to the beginning. >> So, we don't I don't want to spoil it by
>> I think you want to do the You got it. >> All right. So, gonna start talking. So I if you were uh a part part of the JCPC last year, the some of this uh
presentation is going to look uh familiar and and I think it's just important to to sort of uh review um our our approach and the asks. So la last year was was a big year where where
we're we're we've been trying to move away from this historic way of asking for um capital money that's project specific and and move towards uh one big lump sum that's for all buildings interior,
exterior, sustainability, accessibility. Um it it's just it it it makes it so that we're a lot more flexible. Um when it's project specific, we kind of get stuck. Um when there is uh inflation or
you know issues with with materials. um it it tends to slow down projects quite a bit and then I I oftentimes would have to ask for additional funds in following years to make that project happen. So it's a lot it's a lot better approach to
just ask for this one big uh lump sum so we can get these projects done. Um you know and and here just kind of shows that it just it helps with efficiency of the project. It reduces mobilization costs. So and this is this is how I go about
it. So it is a systematic approach um to to capital and what what I've been trying to focus on is roofs and roof drains. So again this is one of the most important things. Uh I I grew up in a
building trade and I was always told by my father and my grandfather if you have a good roof and a good foundation everything in between can be fixed. So really it's just making sure that you have a good roof on on your building. Uh and then when once we have those that
good roofs, then we can start looking at some of the other exterior surfaces like all of the masonry, the windows, exits, exit doors, um and and approaching the that envelope
piece. Um, and then then we start looking about accessibility compliance. We look at driveways, sidewalks, walking paths leading up to the building. So, it's really looking at the roof, the envelope of the building, the the exterior facades, and then all of these
other pieces. Okay. Um and then the next approach would be is we we we got those first uh few items done, small ones, little ones. Uh and then we start looking at our sustainability goals. We we're looking at insulation, weatherization,
electrical infrastructure, EV charging, decarbonization, and and a big one is our our MEP, so our our mechanical, electrical, and plumbing. Um, so all our HVAC systems, many of them are are dated um and need
to be replaced. They're inefficient. Um, so we have, you know, limited time on some of that stuff. BMS B the BMS system helps us with temperature control and again just kind of leads into these other sustainability
help supports our HVAC systems, elevators, water distribution and electrical services. Uh and then we start looking at accessibility goals. Um, we had we had
our accessibility uh uh uh review a few years back. So, we still have those documentations that we can look at and use. So, each time I'm doing a project, I'm I'm trying to wear the all many hats and say, you know, this is my facilities
cap. This is, you know, from a sustainability and this is my accessibility. and how do I make sure that I'm taking care of all of these pieces uh with this one project? Uh fire alarm detection. So, we have our emergency systems, notification
suppression, backup generators. Uh and then lastly, we look at interior finishes and other code compliances. You know, what what sort of things can we do to create a better atmosphere for for our municipal staff and the community
that that we are serving? So in the last last year and there was an ask. So you're asking for a million dollars. What are you going to do with it? So I I last year I listed out uh 10 10 projects and I and I have
uh that 10 projects listed here again. Um and and these are these are my pri these are my priorities. These are the things that that I think about quite often. uh these these are all projects and you could see that's the the total of all these it it is uh an
estimate some of them some of these numbers I have dialed in very closely and then others are are estimates based on projects in the area that have had uh been executed in the last year or two. So that's $15 million. So, at the
end of the day, I know I asked for quite a bit, but there's so much more that still needs to be done. And and really, I'm I'm using this systematic approach. I'm using that FCA, that information that we have from that facility condition assessment. I'm using the
information from our accessibility um reports. And I'm I'm trying to take a look at this and go what, you know, what can be be done? Um, what's what is great about that million dollars is if anything happens, if there is any
hiccup, I can pivot and go to another project that that may fit within the resources I do have. Okay. So, I wanted to kind of have a look at and show you what what I've been
doing in FY26. So, this past year, I felt like I I was going to go into this and say I felt like I was just working on design, just making sure that projects were designed so then once they're funded, we can make
them happen. And it turns out that I I got a bunch of other stuff done as well. Um, so some of the design stuff was done was the Atkins water treatment roof uh replacement. Uh so that replaces the roof. That is much needed, but it also
brings the um uh insulation for the roof uh up to code compliance. uh Town Hall slate roof replacement, uh North Ammer school roof replacement, Mson Memorial Library uh uh fire alarm
system, and some of the and these are the capital projects that we took care of uh over this past year or are working I we are working on now and I should say have I meant to update that and included
the Bangs uh MEP renovations that we have currently going on there as as well. Uh but those are are many of the projects. So what am I looking to do in FY27? So I want to continue this this track of
designing and having projects ready to move forward. So it makes it a lot easier when I'm coming to committees like this or I'm coming to community preservation and say, I have this project and this is how much it's going to cost. It's designed. I'm ready to go.
Um and it it is it is absolutely a priority. So, we have a couple uh big issues over at uh the Ammerst um North Fire Station. And and I mean issues, it's it's really just cap capital stuff that that I would love to
see get done um in the in the very near future. Uh Banks Community Center roof. Um, looking ahead, we're after we're done with this big renovation that we're doing now, it's a great time. Uh, the
roof is is at that age where where it we need to look at replacing it. Once all the mechanicals are done on that roof, all the curbing has been changed. It's a perfect time. It's the perfect order of operations. You would want to have all that stuff done brand new, and then do
the roof. Um and then months of memorial electrical system that will help us uh decarbonize that building and replace the HVAC system. So sort of those are the two things. Uh and then there's just
a a number of capital projects that that have gone from that design state of this year to moving into getting it taken care of in FY27. That's these this is my my hopes. My hopes.
Um and then I just wanted to show um that you know Stephanie Chorelloo and I she's she's our our uh director of sustainability. So her and I work work a bunch uh together and we collaborate on a lot of different projects. And some of
the different projects that we're we're currently looking at is weatherization insulation over at North Fire Station. Um some weatherization insulation projects at Mson Memorial Library and some fast charging stations at North
North up in the north Ammeris section of town. Um we have a number of other projects that that we've we've sort of picked up and put down, but uh some of those are weatherization insulation at town hall decarbonizing town hall decarbonizing
uh bangs. So um some of these these projects in that big list of $15 million worth of projects um we we would obviously look for getting additional resources. So it's not all
coming through CA the the JCPC. It is it is community preservation when we can. It is you know trying to uh secure grant funded money through the DOER whether it be green communities or or climate leader communities. Um but we are trying
to supplement uh that those projects as much as possible. Um just where they fit in in some of those uh different areas. So, I think I'm going into Oh, yes. So, you know, I I t like to always provide
you with a bunch of photos um and and sort of what what I'm working on, but th this is the the sections of, you know, what what keeps Jeremiah up at night. And here here's some uh closeups of of the North Ammer school roof. So
that's their uh slate slate tile. Um just images you could see that that the sur the tile is severely uh deteriorating. Um we have you know the the iron pyite that's oxidizing on some
of the tiles and it's just it was just flaking off. Um many tiles are delaminated and broken. uh town hall slate. You know, again, there's more of of missing tiles, chip tiles, broken tiles,
tiles that that were uh essentially just glued on um and used like a silicone sealant to to keep the water out. Um we have um snow snow fencing that's been uh
masonry. We have a lot lot lot of brick in in the town as well. Um and and that's all all that uh all that that brick is going to need repointing. I mean that is that is sacrificial. U so over time it does it does take the wear
and tear of of all that this New England lovely New England weather. Uh so we do need to get up there and uh do some repointing and make sure that all that masonry is in in good shape. And then some HVAC stuff with in
plumbing. So this was if you see that wastewater line, all that that cracks in there, that's those are not supposed to be there. And that was a lovely find that I had. Um um and and then we have other you know
HVAC related challenges with um oil file fire fired uh boilers and and you know all of these are are um are are really at end of life or or near end of life.
And that's my presentation. I hope you enjoyed. >> Thank you Jeremiah. Um, and you can we can stop sharing this and Andy's hand is up and we'll start with Andy um
for questions. >> Yeah. Um, I'm just I I'm curious about seems like we have a lot of slate roofs and I know that was an issue with the library and the historic the historic funding that we needed to add money to
keep it slate, but is there any is there any less expensive way of re-roofing these slate roofs with something that maybe looks like slate but is cheaper or do we have to go back to slate every time? I I I would say I mean S slate's going
to give you the most longevity. So if you if you were I I know it's the most expensive option, but it's also going to give you the most amount of time. Um they do have syn synthetic slate. Uh and
and there are a number of of buildings that are using it. I what I would say to that though is if we look over at Bol Boltwood in the there's been a slay contractor over there all summer uh re- roofing Boltwood in and it looks
absolutely amazing and one of the big projects they were doing over there was removing all of the synthetic slate and going back to uh the the natural the natural stone. um you can you can pick it out fairly easily when it is the
synthetic. It starts to lift and cup. Uh so it doesn't it doesn't stay down. So it it really just doesn't it doesn't have the same uh life lifespan that a stone does. You know, is there other options? You know, there's obviously
there's asphalt, there's different types of metal. Um, but I but I think you know in some of these historic buildings I mean we would be ma making pretty significant changes to the exterior of the building and and say something like town hall. I mean it it really is
just such an an iconic building uh in our our downtown that you know it would it would really change the way it looks if if we were to to make a a big change and and go to a different material. So, I'm not seeing other hand. I have a
question. Actually, I have two questions. One is an overarching one. Two years ago, you got 500,000. Last year, you got a million. >> Yep. >> And when we talked to you last year, none of the 500 had been spent yet.
>> At this point, when you've had 1.5 million, how much has been spent? Oh, >> you know, no, I'm not saying I'm not No, I'm not saying down to, you know, so >> is it is it most of it? Is it halfway?
>> No, no, it it really hasn't been. Um, so that uh all so I have three roofs that have been in in design or completed design. So, North Ammer school, uh, Town Hall and
Atkins water treatment. All of the funding for that architectural and engineering services came directly from the roofing uh uh money. Knowing that town hall was my priority
and making sure that that that building is addressed really made it so that I had to hold back and I had to hold on to that that money that the larger bucket of money.
Um once once I and I'm hopeful I'm hopeful that I that I see some I I did request some additional money from uh uh CPAC. If if I do receive that money, then I then I can get the entirety of
Town Hall's roof done in one single uh phase. Uh and that would just leave me with some money left over. I don't know exactly how much that would be. Uh it wouldn't be a significant amount, but it would leave me with some money left over
to take care of some of these other projects that we're working on. >> So all of those extra smaller kind of smaller projects that are, you know, anywhere from 20 to $200,000, that's that's what is is um uh that
those will kind of land in there. >> Okay. So I want to follow. Unfortunately, I've been sort of holding tight. >> Yeah, that's okay. You know, it makes sense. So, you're getting Well, there still has to be voted, but the the CPAC money is about 1.2 million in that
neighborhood, right, for you know, that's what was voted out by them. So, my So, I have just two other quick ones. So, what you're saying is over the next two years, most of it will be spent um if all goes well and you'll get one big
roof done. So my second question is um in the budget we're looking at your million acts has been reduced. So is that sustainable over the next four or five years which is what it's pegged at
and my third let me just do the third question the North Ammeris school. So uh Andy asked about was a slate roof worth it? My question is, re is rewor roofing a building that we're not really using
worth it? Um, it's got some storage for town stuff. The Head Start program has left it. The family center has left it. And maybe downstairs we still have a wick program, Dave. Um, you know, we have a rent. We don't even have Wick anymore. No.
>> So, it's is it's an empty building then except for town stores, files, and some other things there. >> No. No. It it it gets uh used I believe four days a week. It might be up towards of five. Um service net has uh does
playgroups on on the first floor. >> Okay. So there >> and I can just add quickly um couple just things coming down the road that um have been talked about is swing space for DPW at some point. Um that might be
Wildwood, it might be the North Ammer School, might be some other space, but having the building available for that. Um we're also in the final year of our um Amoris Wreck lease at the middle school and so we're having conversations
around that and what that would look like, but that was a 10-year agreement that is coming due. So um >> but you're saying we have potential use of this >> potential uses for that space still. Yeah. >> So it makes sense for it to have a roof. >> Yeah. I mean, this I see this building
every day, everyone. So, it's it's not that I have anything against the building. It's just re- roofing an empty building didn't didn't make sense to me. So, I'm glad there's a So, so my other then my question, Jeremiah, is if we in in the budget that Sean has presented to
us, am I right that it's down to 500 Sean for each year? I >> um it's 750 for the upcoming year and then I think yeah I dropped it down to 500 in the out years. >> Okay. Yeah. So um so I know you'd rather
have a million but it is 750 a workable number and >> 7 750 is I I will absolutely do my best uh and make do what I can with 750. Um
and you did ask about uh years beyond it. It's going to be very challenging. Uh unfortunately I have projects that are the priority that are that are just um the cost is is exceeds
the that amount. Um, what I would anticipate if if if I if I if I'm unable to supplement it through uh other grant funding or uh CPAC, I I I think what
will end up happening is is I I'll there may be times where I I have to hold on to some money until the following year to make sure that the project gets done. Um because because we know like borrowing is also we're we're we're
stretched pretty thin with some of our large capital projects. So it's it's you know I just try to get creative with as with whatever I can do. But I I'm I'm going to keep asking for for my million. I I would love to.
>> Dave Dave I see your hand is up. Sure. Very quickly, just to piggyback on what Sean said, I think these are great questions, great conversations. Um, Jeremiah, I don't think you mentioned in your presentation how many buildings,
but my recollection is you oversee 11 buildings. Is that right? >> Well, more like 14, but 11 of them I I would have to say 11 of them it is, you know, >> core. Yeah. So, just to give you a sense, it's
a lot of buildings. Um, >> and building on what Sean said, the town manager has asked both Shawn, myself, Jeremiah, with some help from Rob Moa, and others to really, to your point, Kathy, to look at all the buildings that may not be
uh utilized to their highest and best. North Ammer school, what what are some of the needs upcoming there? We've offloaded or we will be offloading the East Street School as part of the Wayfinders project. You all know we're looking at the South Ammeris campus. That's a building that we know we don't
need and um we should figure out a higher and better better use there. Um but I did just want to put a a little a little add to Jeremiah's point. I mean realistically, and it may it's not for tonight. It's not even for this budget
year, but Kathy, your question is a very good one. in the out years. We all know we're going to be very tight on capital, but realistically, um, and I think Stephanie said this a couple of weeks ago, um, we're probably going to have to be more realistic about our sustainability goals because at at
these levels, 400, $500,000 a year, we are not going to reach those goals. And I think we should be honest with you all and the council that at those numbers um some of the and and again we haven't even factored in escalation of costs. So
Jeremiah uh wonderful presentation PowerPoint but um we're just not going to get there. Even if he carries money over from one year to the next some of these bigger projects um will escalate in cost. So, you know,
new boilers at the bang center or uh decarbonizing town hall, you know, his number of 15 million plus might be over a 5 to 10 year period, but by the time we get to some of those, you're going to have to add some zeros even to that
number. So, we just need to have realistic conversations about what are the priorities and what can we do with the available capital. But I think we need to go into it eyes open that we're not gonna we're not going to make some of our goals we need to prioritize on de on uh decarbonization and and
sustainability. >> Thank you. There were any other questions? Lee, >> you me hate me. Yeah, this is for Sean and for all of us. Why is there this gap
between what the town really needs and what the town is willing to understand and accept and and actually work on there just seems to be this giant gap.
>> Yeah. No, it's a great question. It's what keeps me >> up all the time, right? There's always something new. Um I think there's a few reasons. one, we didn't replace any buildings for quite a while, right? That's one, you know, you've heard the town manager say we went 30 or 40 years
without replacing a building and we enjoyed really low debt and, you know, our operating budgets benefited as a result. And now we're kind of at this friction point where the operating budgets are getting squeezed a little bit so that we can up the capital because we have to. We don't really have
another other choice. Um, but you know, we forget that for 30 or 40 years it was the other way, right? Um, so that's one. I think the needs have expanded, right? So some of these sustainability projects and the push to electrify and all these things um that we're investing money in,
you know, they weren't really on our radar 15, 20 years ago um in the same way. There might have been costs for similar things, but um it's a little bit different in terms of the scope and there's no funding from the or there's very little funding from the state for those types of projects. you know, we're
just now starting to get the MSBA to um partially help with some of those projects. Um so that's I think another one is that the needs have expanded. Um and then the costs have, you know, particularly in the last four or five years, the costs of everything have
exploded. So an ambulance, you know, used to cost 280,000 and now it's like in the mid four, you know, four sometimes higher. The our ladder truck was 1.5 million. our, you know, all of our things, um,
equipment have exploded and so have building costs. So, I think there's sort of this perfect storm that's hit that, um, I don't think we're unique in some ways from other towns. I mean, I think all cities and towns struggle with exactly what you described. I'm jealous of East Hampton. Jeeoff, if you're still
on the on the call, because um you know, while I understand nothing's perfect, they were able to address pretty much all of their school buildings within a you know, 101 15 year span um before cost exploded, right? They they did their high school, Jeff will probably remember the year, but I think, you
know, sometime, you know, it's less than 20 years old, I believe, and then they were able to do the middle school and the elementary schools in in a project. So, East Hampton may be in the best shape of all. Um, so thanks Jeeoff. Uh, but that's why that's why I think we're dealing with some of the pressures that
we're dealing with. >> And Sean didn't list that we're we're at the cap of what we can increase our taxes every year. We've we max and the state's share of our budget has been going down. So it you know so our local
property tax and we tax >> we have giant properties that don't yield any property tax because they are univers the university and the colleges so we have a huge amount of productive properties they are businesses but they're they're living amidst us without
property you know so it when he talks about profit storm you get the result of all that is what you call the gap it is a big gap Um, >> Kathy, could I add one other thing? Um, >> yeah. >> I just wanted to compliment Jeremiah. We're very fortunate to have Jeremiah.
I'm not sure how long he's worked for the town, but not long enough. We want to keep him for a long time. But I think what I really appreciate about Jeremiah is it's a very systematic approach. So even though that $15 million as I'm a taxpayer, but I also work for the town,
it kind of shocks you, you know, and and I think some of the comments here from Bridget and others, it it's wow, how did we get here? Well, Sean explained some of the reasons we got here, but we need to know what the numbers are. And Jeremiah has really working with other
staff and he works across departments to get those numbers. We've assessed buildings. We've done design work. There's more to be done. Yes. But getting those numbers, even though it's a bit of a shock to the system, at least we know we can now plan and how do we get there over time. But I give him
great credit for doing things, you know, in a systematic way. As he said, you need a a solid roof, a solid foundation. Things between that um can be repaired, fixed, replaced. And that's where we are before we do sustainability work. You
know, I'm in town hall right now. It leaks all over at all times of the day and night and year. The foundation, I think, is pretty good. So, we can build once we get a new roof, we can replace windows and make sure you can't, you know, fly a kite in this building
anymore, which you can do right now. So, so again, I give him great credit and we're very fortunate to have his his mind and his approach to to our building. So, thank you, Jeremiah, for your all you do. >> And Lee is your hand back up. Glad to see your hands.
>> Well, no, it's still up. >> Except and again, I don't think this just for us. I I completely agree with everything with all the needs that have been represented with such passion and truth.
How can this need be conveyed to the town in a way that the town will support it? I I I know this is not on us, but I think that's the real question. >> You know, I I guess I'll speak to that a
little bit. I'm I'm going to give um a shout out out to uh Sam um our our uh head of communications. So, uh, over over the what was it last year, we did the civic academy. Um, and and I was fortunate to, uh,
present to a a bunch of, uh, community members. Um, and and part of that that conversation was really kind of going over it. It was almost like doing one of these this presentation and and you know, what what is what does my department do and you know, what sort of
things do I look at? and and I I think that that was a you know that that was sort of that touched a smaller group of the community. Uh but I can certainly see that expanding. Um so you know if if
I think with with Sam's great work that we might be able to start you know sort of reaching reaching a lot a lot further you know um and and letting people know like what what these needs are. So, I want to Jeremiah, thank you very
much. And um if you can give your chart set to Sean so we can just put it in the packet so we have visuals we can remind ourselves with. Um and including the startling $15 million visual that that you provided to us. And so I think um we
just went through all the projects um correct Sean for today. >> Yeah. The only thing I was that was asked earlier and I don't know Jeremiah if you're prepared to speak about it is just um I don't know if you had any highle takeaways from the Wildwood facility study or if you'd have to
review that. I know that's we did it but I don't know if you've actually dove into that uh recently. >> I I I have I have looked at it and and some of it is is some of the stuff that we've already been talking about. So
it's it's roofs, it's HVAC systems. So some some big systems, you know, some big uh uh infrastructure pieces we would really have to look at. Um so if we are we were going to continue to to use that building in some way. Um but I would
certainly want to take a look at that document uh closer and kind of go through each each of those pieces because it does it to again to go a little bit further and make sure that we're looking at accessibility and and all all of that. So,
>> you know, the and the well, Sean was on the building committee when we were doing this, but the building committee for the new school produced a very long document with pictures in it. Um, which concluded the walls can't the walls are too thin, they can't hold the second
floor, the roof is shot, the HVAC system doesn't work very well, the electrical system, and then there's asbestos. So you can't even get in to re repair a lot of the I mean the list was long enough with some vibrant pictures of um a building that was never wellbuilt would
be the other thing about thinking about it. You know sing single pane glass with leaky windows that had plastic over them. So but so yeah so there's a lot to build on in terms of the condition of the building. Um it starting on a do we
reuse it? Do we keep any part of it? Do you how would you develop it? So, so I I just want to say thank you very much to Jeremy and to Jeff who's still with us. And there's one item I wanted to bring up before I throw it open for
public comments. We do have two people in the public. And that's a request um both Andy asked me, but I also would like to. There is a special program next week on design standards for downtown and the presentation for that starts at
6:00 at night. So the question was could pe would people be willing to start next week only earlier at 4 and I would try to get them make sure we ended at you
know a quarter of six so those that want to go downtown and this is redesigning um I took a look at some of the designs it's fairly significant what's being proposed for it's not just the downtown street but it's the surrounding neighborhoods um so I I I can send that
out to everyone, but it's a question of how is that even feasible given that other people have other lives. And then Sean, you've got the schools lined up to come in next week and it so it would also depend on can they could they
switch and and be here earlier? Um, >> yeah, I'll reach out to them based on what you all decide. I imagine they probably would like to start earlier, but I I'll confirm with them if you decide to do that. >> Okay, Bridget. I I can't I'm booked. I've got something
already four to five that day. Um and I would just like to be there for the schools. >> So So if we if we did it so the schools started at 5 when you arrived and we did the you know would that work for you?
>> That works for me and I may be able to you know pop in earlier if the meeting ends early. And yeah, we do have the we have the video recording so if you miss a piece of it, it's you can catch up. Does anyone else have a conflict if we >> if Sean checks and the people who were
going to present? So Sean, this would be the schools would be nearer to five. Um >> yeah, so we would start with we would start with it and recreation. Um, yeah, I think those are the only only other two departments and possibly I
could respond to some of the questions that have been asked if we need to use up some time. So, does anyone else have a conflict? And then I will, you know, I'll try to get us out, you know, I I told Andy quarter of six, but 10 of six anyway.
You know, with enough time to to leave your home and get downtown and um for these kind of meeting, it probably won't start at exactly six o'clock. Um but u and anyone here who doesn't know about this, we can just send you the notice
went out. It's it's been it's been broadcast and and the uh what they've come up with is up on a website as well. So, this is a process that will also be seeking public input um on exactly what the proposals are.
So, not seeing anything else. Um I am going to turn it open it to public comments. And we do have uh we're down to one member of the public. So, if the one member of the public who's with us would like to make
a comment, uh, now is the time. Raise your hand. Uh, not seeing it. Then I am closing public comments and Bridget is the notetaker, the minute taker for today. So, we'll get you the video, the Zoom video, and I'll give you
Andy's word document so you can reo it for this because he's already got all the committee members names is the format just basically follows the agenda >> and it can be s it can be succinct. Andy captured a lot in his but I think my
thinking on minutes is capture anything where we might want to come back to it when in our discussion about our report. So, I think it is 6:41 and if no one has any final remarks, I want to thank both
Jeremiah and Jeff um and Dave for being with us for the whole time. It's been a great discussion. And Jeff, welcome to the town of Ammeris. We are really glad to have a planning director who's al also thinking about economic development that you're managing to wear two hats.
That's that's terrific. So, thank you all. And uh I guess I need to make a motion to adjurnn. I'm making a motion to adjurnn. And I'll go around the room. There's a second. Lee seconded. So, Jean, >> yes. >> Kathy's a yes. Bridget,
>> yes. >> Andy, >> yes. >> Lee, >> yes. >> And Jill, >> yes. >> We are adjourned at 6:41. Thank you all very much. Thanks everyone. Bye. Part: 2
Okay, Mr. Marshall, let's see. You do have a quorum of the board. Ammeris Media is with us tonight. Uh Nate Mallaloy is with us tonight. Mr. Marshall, you are the co-host of this meeting. The attendees are coming in.
Um, I believe we are good to go. >> All right. Thank you, Pam. >> Welcome. >> Welcome to the Emers Planning Board meeting of March 4th, 2026. My name is Doug Marshall, and as chair of the Emmeris Planning Board, I am calling
this meeting to order at 6:33 p.m. This meeting is being recorded and is available livereamed via Ammeris Media. Minutes are being taken pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021, extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 and
further extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2025. This planning board meeting will be conducted via remote means using the Zoom platform. The Zoom meeting link is available on the meeting agenda posted on the town website's calendar listing for this meeting or go
to the planning board web page and click on the most recent agenda where the Zoom link is listed at the top of the page. No in-person attendance of the public is permitted. However, every effort will be made to ensure the public can access the
meeting in real time via technological means. In the event public access is disrupted for reasons of economic hardship or despite best efforts, we will post an audio or video recording, transcript, or other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as
possible after the meeting on the town's website. Board members, I will take a roll call. When I call your name, unmute yourself, answer affirmatively, and return to mute. I'll start with Bruce I am here.
>> All right. Uh, is Fred Hartwell here? I do not think so. I don't see or hear him. We'll go on. Jesse Major >> present. >> Thank you. I Doug Marshall and present. Uh, we believe Angus Mloud will be a
couple minutes late, so I'm not seeing him yet. Uh, Johanna Newman >> here. and Jara Smith is not in evidence yet. So we have four members present. We have
a quorum and we can proceed. Board members, if technical issues arise and the discussion needs to pause, it will be noted in the minutes. Please use the raise hand function to ask a question or make a comment and I will call on you to speak. After speaking,
remember to remmute yourself. to the general public. The general public comment agenda item is reserved for public comment regarding items not appearing later on tonight's agenda. Please be aware the board will not respond to comments during general
public comment period. Public comment may also be heard at other times during the meeting when deemed appropriate by the planning board chair. Please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited. If you have joined the Zoom meeting using a
telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star9 on your phone. When called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents can typically express their views for up to
three minutes or at the discretion of the planning board chair. If a speaker does not comply with these guideline or exceeds their allotted time, their participation may be disconnected from the meeting. All right, time is 6:37. We'll go right
into our first agenda item and Zoom just dropped minimized on my screen, so that was a surprise. All right, we have the minutes from September 17th of last year. Uh members,
are there any comments on those minutes? >> All right. May I have What's that, Bruce? >> I move to adopt the minutes as presented. >> All right, let's see. Johanna, you got your hand up. >> I second the motion.
>> All right, you beat Jesse. So, um, we have a motion to accept a second. Uh, does anybody want to make any further comments before we go ahead and vote? All right. All right, we'll go ahead. Uh, Bruce,
we'll start with you. >> I have an I. >> All right, Jesse. >> Hi, >> Johanna. >> I >> and I'm an I as well. That's four in favor, three members absent. The motion passes.
All right, we'll go to public comment period. And at this point, I read. Okay. So, members of the public, this is your chance to speak about something that's not later on the agenda. Um, we have three members of the public
who are uh in evidence at the moment. They are Mara Keane, Sarah Bar, and Walker Powell. So, do any of you want to say give a public comment? All right. I'm not seeing any hands
raised, so I think I will just move on. Time is 6:39. East Ammerst Zoning Redevelopment Review the draft consultant scope of work. Nate, why don't you give us an intro here? >> Yeah, we're going to have Walker Powell join us as a panelist. She's a planner
with the town and she'll be working with this project. Um, I'll just say quickly, you know, the town applied for a community planning grant. We received $70,000 to study East Ammerst. You know, it's a pretty big geographic area and
then uh we have until June 30th, 2027 to complete the work. We're hoping it would move along faster. The idea is to study East Ammeris, right? Focus in on an area and then determine ways to increase density to allow, you know, multif family housing or, you know, different
kinds of uses there. Um, you know, there was some some things in the in the press saying, you know, this is the local historic district. I want to say that it it is separate from the local historic district process. So, there is a local historic district being studied in East Ammerst. Some of these areas may
overlap, they may not, but it's, you know, this isn't the East Ammeris local historic district. This is a, you know, a planning study. And you know what we're hoping is that the planning board becomes the venue and involved you know as a stakeholder and works with a consultant to do outreach and work with
property owners and really you know can be part of the project and the planning for this village center. So you know we're in the scope that we can talk about a timeline at some point but the idea is to really you keep the board involved in this process. So I can turn it over to Walker. >> All right. Thank you. Welcome Walker.
>> Thank you. Um I mean I don't have a ton to add. I think that was a pretty good overview that Nate gave. So, um, have you all had a chance to review the scope of work that was sent out? >> Well, uh, I'm seeing a few heads nod. >> Okay.
>> So, I think it would probably be useful, at least for the public, for you to give us a little bit of a overview of what's envisioned. >> Yeah, I'll just do a quick synopsis basically. Um, so as Nate said, this is going to be for the East Ammerst Village
Center. Um, and there was a map included with the sort of potential focus area that we're looking at considering um, as part of the packet as well. Um, not the common so much as just south of that where there's more businesses and the
commercial district is there already. Um so the hope is to look at zoning that would increase housing specifically affordable housing and um one of the main ways of doing that is a 40R district that we'd like to have the consultant look at but we're
not committed to that. So the way the scope was written is um they their sort of first task is to look at the initial conditions and assess what's there and what would make sense and then at the end of the first task they
uh at the end of the second task um which is looking at specific housing details and like market analysis and whatnot. They propose what the best strategy would be for the area and then once the planning board and the town
staff have decided which strategy they want to go forward with whether it's 40R or something else then the consultant will also be tasked with helping implement figuring out how to implement that writing the language for the zoning bylaw if there's going to be a zoning
bylaw change um figuring out exactly where the district boundary would be how it would impact the existing zoning and um how the affordability would work and identify issues that might arise in
implementing this and then come up with the final language needed so that it could go straight to town council um or whoever else would need to approve it at the end of this process. We're hoping that the process will not just lead to a
study, but also lead to actual implementation of something that will make change happen sooner than later. And the consultant will work with town staff and then our hope was that the planning board would be the primary venue for public comment um public
meetings. The consultant would attend several planning board meetings and give presentations and answer questions during those meetings. And the planning board would be an active participant in giving feedback and looking at the drafts. Um, that's kind of an overview. Does anybody
have any questions about the idea or the concept or specific parts of the draft? >> All right, I see a couple of hands. Thank you, Walker, for that introduction. Um, I know I have a question, but we'll
go with the hands first. Jesse, why don't you start? >> Thanks, Doug. Uh, thanks, Walker. Couple questions. Um, one is on the map. Is that everything on the map is what you're considering East Ammerst or it's just or something some subset of what's
actually shown in our conversations about East Ammerst sort of center. It's really a much smaller region. >> Jesse, there were several pages. The first page is just an ex an aerial without any boundary on it. >> Oh, okay. Sorry, maybe I missed that. I'll
>> Yeah, there's one with a proposed focused area drawn line. >> Apologies. I was sending that question. Then my my I'll take a look. My second question is more about ah thanks Nate. Oh yeah, I totally blew right. >> So that's the existing that's the existing zoning, right? >> That helps.
>> Yeah. So I just just to you know sorry to interrupt quickly. So you know here's the railroad tracks. >> Uh here's Dickinson Street. So here's Hamshaw Lumber. >> Yeah. >> College Street. Here's the intersection and then you know Belchuretown Road heading out of town. And so you know
this is a big map. The idea would be you know with the planning board and consultant and staff you know what is the focus area within here. So you know we're generally saying you know East Ammeris is in here you know and then it's kind of defining well what is the actual study area? So is it you know
closer to route nine and you know how you know how you know how big how long it is along the road whatever. So that's kind of the part of the first task is doing this analysis of existing conditions and saying okay what what makes sense for a study area. >> Yeah great thank you. Um then my second
question was about I guess the language and the way the scope of work is written because it talks about increasing density and also affordability affordable housing and and those three are not necessarily the same at all. Um,
and just to clarify, we're talking about affordable housing as defined by some actual number, not the way it's used in many other of our conversations just about rents not affordable kind of housing. Right? I just want to be clear
that's what we're talking about. and and is there a way to make the scope of work have, you know, maybe some specific more specifics on each of those fronts rather than sort of lumping them together because they because they're very different purposes in my mind and
in some of other conversations. Mhm. Yeah. I think that ca that language came from the concept of the 40R district is a way of increasing the housing density in that would also support affordability. You know, rents
would actually be restricted. Um, and then the density is kind of coming from the fact that there's business and commercial uses there, but they're they're not, you know, the the setbacks and the building structure size and the amount of floors allowed and whatnot are
not allowing the use the area to be used effectively. So, it is kind of two different goals, but they're both looking at ways to use the area more efficiently in ways that benefit the town. Um, but I think yeah, I'd welcome some feedback on how to make that more
clear or you know ways to rephrase that. >> Okay, I I'll give a little more thought maybe send some suggestions. Thanks. >> All right, Johanna, >> I also had a question just about the study area. A bunch of that forested land I think is owned by Ammerst
College. How much correct me if I'm wrong about that. Um, >> yeah. Yeah. And if it is, how what's the interplay there between the residential and the you know >> the town's ability? Sorry, between the
academic and the town's reach. >> In the proposed focus area map, I took out I left off most of that forested area because it is owned by Ammerst and it's also um mostly wetlands. But um I think that is part of what the
consultant would be looking at is is there a feasible you way to use that land in concert with the college or is that something we're just going to totally leave out of the study in the end. Um and we can kind of have that discussion as we go I think. >> Right. >> All right.
>> Or maybe somehow enhance it and protect like if if those are valuable wetlands that the town maybe there are opportunities to enhance it in ways. >> Yeah. And I think some of that area it might already be protected. Um, but yeah. >> Okay. Thanks. >> All right. I'm seeing Fred's hand. That
means he's arrived. Um, >> yeah. >> I don't know what is going on. and I could not get any of the links to work and so I joined as a member of the public and I was promoted to a member of
the group which is why my name is up there but uh I my camera is not connected apparently. Uh so uh Pam if you can maybe resend
uh some credentials I could try to log in again but that's That's why I'm there uh with just my name and not my not my camera operating. >> All right. Thank you, Fred.
Um I guess Nate, um you showed a map of the zoning in that area, but there was another page in the packet that had a boundary on it that was just sort of,
you know, penciled in, so to speak. That that's that's the one. All right. Good. So, I just wanted to be sure uh the public got a chance to see this. Um this is the boundary walker that you had referenced
where you said you you left out most of Ammeris College's forested land. >> Yes. >> All right. So, um I guess Jesse, I do see your hand, but I'm going to make one comment and then we'll come back to you. Um, I guess I was a little bit uh or I
guess I'm a little concerned I suppose I should say that the almost the exclusive focus of this seems to be housing. Um, and the reason I'm a little concerned is that the section of Route 9 that's
west of that's between the railroad tracks and the sort of center intersection of of of East Ammer Center there at the intersection with the what is it? East East East Street. um that's
commercial now and we could in fact reszone that so that it that commercial was more um feasible in that area. Um and and we know how little commercial tax base we
have in this town. So, I guess I would just be very concerned if we were doing something that would squeeze commercial further out of town and and and I would hope that if we're going to reszone this
area that we would do something to to try to make it easier for zoning for commercial to happen um along at least the area west of the intersection with East Street, the area east of where it turns into Belchuretown road. You know,
I do I can understand that being more residential. Um there is some commercial along there and I don't know if we want to stop the commercial at East Street or let it continue. So, I hope we can have that conversation, too. All right.
>> Yeah, I think that's that's a good conversation to have. And I think the hope was that mixed use would be um something that would be encouraged so that we're not squeezing out commercial in favor of residential. Okay. All right. So, Jesse and then
Bruce, >> thanks. Um, in reading also the scope of work, uh, again trying to parse these differences, I'm all for more affordable housing, actually affordable with limits. At the
same time, as I think everybody knows, I'm all for more student housing and and the the term student doesn't show up once in the scope of work. And so I feel like if we are trying to hire someone to look at this and give us suggestions in
my mind that should really be part of the conversation very upfront because that's at least on the subcommittee how we've often talked about trying to think about East Ammeris and is that a good place for higher density really thinking about student appropriate housing. So, I
would I would love to see that just included in part of the problem we're trying to solve here. >> More housing stock for for that >> population. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. >> All right, Bruce. Um, I agree with most
everything that's been said to date uh with Doug with your concern about um the possibility of squeezing the the present commercial rather than augmenting it if possible. When I read the uh the the the
RFP, it said it acknowledged that this was the a gateway to the town. And I have said I've thought for quite a few years that it was the least auspicious gateway that we have and it would be good if that could be
made it could be more auspicious. So I think I I was quite happy that that had been mentioned. But I think perhaps I should firstly like to augment uh to amplify that that this is that that we should not just recognize that it's a
gateway but that we should recognize I think that it is the least auspicious gateway and that it's somewhat embarrassing and it would be nice if not only that it is a gateway but that we could be augmented in its
prestige. I don't know word like that. >> Grand grandeur. >> Grandeur. I like that word. Yes. Thank you, Doug. Um, so, uh, agree with Jesse that I noted that the student the word student was missing from all of the housing. I know that we've discussed
student housing a fair bit and we haven't felt that this corner of town was optimal because the university is on the diametrically opposite uh, side of the center of town. And so not optimal, but given that um
uh the the the the the demand for housing seems to be nine out of 10 rentals seem to be student interests or stuff. I don't think that's right. Although that's the data that I have, although I and it seems to be accurate from all of the sources I have, but it
doesn't doesn't feel right. So I haven't quite got to the bottom of that. But nonetheless, there is a huge demand for a huge unmet demand for student housing in so far as so long as this the university doesn't uh uh add more than it currently has. So I think it should
be there. I agree with Jesse on that. Um uh there was one other thing that I forgotten. Um, and the last little piece was that in reading the uh the the RFP uh on the bottom of page uh one, it's
there's a an error that took me a while to figure out what was going on. But basically, South Pleasant and North Pleasant should say Southeast and Northeast and then it makes sense, but otherwise it's quite confusing.
All right. Thank you. >> Thank you, Bruce. Um I guess um you know, for that area, particularly the housing that's on the south side of uh Belchuretown Road, that
has always felt to me like it had a fair amount of graduate students and probably more graduate students than undergraduates. Um, and so, you know, the having graduate students
there isn't necessarily a problem. I mean, there is reasonable bus service with the Belchuretown Road bus. Um, you know, obviously if we put 5,000 people there, that would be certainly an impact on the bus system. Um, but I
think it but I know I mean the only person I've ever known that lived in that area was actually a staff member at UMass who uh h had a fairly low income job there and um that was where she and her
family lived for a number of years. So it is serving more than just students. Uh Nate, you're next. Yeah, I was going to thank the board for their comments and this is, you know, the kind of things we want to receive. So, you know, I hear what you're saying
and I think staff can go back and look how we could adjust the RFP, you know, in terms of say describing the different housing types or tiered approach to income levels. Uh, even Doug, what you said. And so, I'm, you know, I think that's important and that's what we wanted to hear. So, I was just going to
say thanks. Um and I think you know uh Jess I just want to say Jesse quickly to your point right I think we have to probably spell it out a little bit too that affordable housing my guess here is you know there's capital A affordable right that's a certain income and on the SHI and then there could be you know what's typically called workforce
housing and was redefined with the affordable homes act by the state and it's you know up to 120 AMI and mass housing publishes it and there's programs for that so I think you know some of these suggestions are great we can kind of clarify what we would want the consultant to do. So we, you know,
we provide a little bit more guidance in terms of, you know, right, what kind of housing, what kind of affordability and maybe what they consider in different parts of this village center. So you know, let's not right um preclude any new commercial development. Maybe it's the idea of if it's mixed buildings,
what are uses that we would want to have in our non-residential space that aren't allowed today? And so, you know, kind of getting that thinking out of the consultant rather than, you know, saying let's just do apartments and not any any commercial opportunity. So, I think we can try to, you know, you know,
incorporate that into the RFP just so it's clear so we're not having to, you know, just discuss it again or try to, you know, backtrack if they propose something else. We can at least kind of lay it out a little more clearly. Uh Nate, Nate, speaking of things that aren't allowed, would this potentially
um have the conversation about whether an apartment building could have more than 24 units? >> Yeah. So, I think I think as part of the study, they could say, "Okay, here's what we see in your zones, and here's
maybe our thoughts." And so, you know, we we reference 4DR, which is an overlay, which could work because, you know, the commercial has some barriers in other zoning districts, too, um, to housing or they they could come back and say, you know what, what if you here's what I'm seeing in your zoning as part
of their existing analysis, right? There's a number of things and it could be that that's the apartment piece. And I think it's then, you know, what is the strategy they recommend? And is it a combination of things? Is it kind of this overlay tool or is it restructuring our base zoning with you know whatever
it is say six different idea six different changes maybe it's the apartment thing maybe it's the additional lot area maybe it's some other piece you know some other pieces and that's their recommendation is you know modify zoning in that way so we haven't I mean I'm envisioning they
might say that and they might not you know it's if they if they really feel strongly about it then yes you know it's something we'd have to consider >> and isn't it true true that 40R basically says you shouldn't have any parking associated with the building because it's really for transit oriented
sites. >> Not necessarily. You can you can have a 40R be for housing or mixed use. Um you can kind of have a a theme and then there's just a minimum density. And so the hope would be that you don't you know have such rigorous parking requirements that you limit development.
But in even right now in our bylaw, the way we've written our parking section, you know, it's two spaces unless a developer can prove otherwise through a number of criteria. And so we don't, you know, the pling bar has been pretty flexible on that. So I I see that that's not in conflict with 4DR.
>> Okay. All right. Uh Bruce and then Jara. Looks like Jar's here. The time is 7 o'clock. I'll give him five minutes of grace. And it's let's let's assume you arrived five minutes ago. Go ahead, Bruce.
>> I remembered what I forgot. Um, in this zone, I think, well, of course, it depends, I guess, on how the zone is defined, but perhaps the zone will include the uh Maplewood Farm. And that has been a thorn in the side uh for well
for a generation or more. And uh it would be nice to maybe make a specific request to see how that um oddity can be uh reconciled. I guess it's going to depend on whether
the owner is still the owner or whether they're intimately imminently going to disappear. But short of uh that, it would be it would be nice to be able to figure out how to make that uh be more useful,
be actually what it wants to be. >> Well, Bruce, if we adjust the zoning and permit a lot more different things to happen there, wouldn't that probably uh induce a little more activity on that site? >> I think so. I just I'm raising it as a
as a as a particular I mean a consultant driving through there wouldn't necessarily know that there's 30 years of angst associated with that pro that that parcel and I think it's worth pointing that out to them and saying that um
>> you know there's a there's a there's a there's a treat in store if you can do something to make this idiosyncrasy go away or to reconcile it in some fashion. That's all. Okay. All right. All right. Um, any other comments from
the board at the moment? All right. I will ask our members of the public if there were any comments they wanted to make about this R this draft RFP for studying East Ammeris Center. Okay. All right, guys. I don't see any
hands from the public and I don't see anything from the board. So maybe we'll go on to the next topic. Time is 7:03 on my clock. We'll go on to
general housing discussion starting with a report of the housing and zoning subcommittee. And the second item will be discussion of possible memo regarding student housing. Uh, Nate, do you want to introduce this
or is this Jesse? >> I hope I hope it's Nate. >> Which one am I introducing? Uh, Doug, >> why don't you start with the uh report of the housing and zoning subcommittee? >> You know, I I think I'll you I'll give an intro and then, you know, Jesse, your
members can take over. Um, so the subcommittees met since the last meeting. We looked at the priority list. There was, you know, a few um both zoning and other measures that were discussed. And you know I think the the idea would be to keep moving them forward and bring
them back to the board for review and then also maybe have you know other other you know guidance and direction from the full board. So you know in the packet there was an explanation for changing mixeduse buildings. So that's something the subcommittee would like to keep moving pretty quickly. you know
there is some ideas about student home regulations and so in that you know in the packet there's questions and we could talk about that and I think you know we've heard staff has heard the planning board and others mentioned you know what you know what can be done about student housing in terms of you
know defining certain things or regulating it and so staff's generating you know questions taking down what you said having our own and then you know the idea is we're going to start reaching out to council and you know really looking at it so Bruce thank you for your state college piece That was also very helpful. And um you know then
you know like we're looking at other staff initiatives. So some of it really is just you know keeping things moving knowing that there's a timeline in all of this. Uh the subcommittee still likes North Ammerst and so it's something they're looking at you know working on not involving staff as much in terms of
my time but then also bringing it back to the board. So I think that's something to also consider. Uh and then just quickly the letter you know Jara I'm glad you're here. It's just you know a few meetings ago there was discussions about you know what's happening in terms of say leadership or
other things and I don't know if I said at first or someone did I I was thinking that well if there are certain thoughts about how the town could interact with the university or colleges or whatever you know would an open letter from the board to the town manager saying well here's what we you know maybe what we
see as issues or here's what we'd like to see or I'm not even sure how the letter would be formed but you know maybe that's a way just to get the planning board's thoughts to the town manager's office because you know although this is a public meeting and we have minutes and everything I'm not sure how much gets relayed and so that was
just an idea uh and it's something that the board could consider I don't you know to me it was just maybe an idea stemming from one of those meetings I don't you know I don't even know how strongly it was represented or discussed it's just something I wanted to put out there >> if so this was just a followup and see if we wanted to pursue it
>> right >> okay well there were a number of pages pages in the U packet uh regarding the housing and zoning subcommittee. Um I guess uh does anyone have any comments on those?
Who either is or isn't on the housing and zoning subcommittee? Um Nate are I mean you this is basically some of these are dated May of last of this year. Some some of this is October of this year. So I assume the date in
the upper corner is the target. It's not the date of the document clearly, >> right? No. In that list, the idea would be to try to have some, you know, language in the zoning amendment form and in, you know, maybe in that month, the planning board would refer it to
council to start the official zoning amendment process, whether that's, you know, hearings or something. And so those those dates were, you know, just target dates. they could, you know, move, but it was just to try to understand, you know, what the timeline could be. >> Uhhuh. >> And I can share my screen if there's a
document someone would like. I'm just trying to get them. >> Well, uh, let's see. We've got Jesse's hand. Why don't you go ahead, Jesse? >> Thank Thanks, Doug. Before we maybe talk about these documents, sorry, I didn't get my hand up quick enough. Just two other points for the full board from our conversation at subcommittee. Uh, really
about the North Ammerst idea, overlay idea, and about student housing, defining it, regulating it, etc., etc. We had a discussion at the subcommittee following up on the sort of points I clumsily raised, I
don't know, two point two times ago with the full board. Um, and we were hoping to bring something a little more defined through the full board to gauge if we have full board support to move things forward because the conversation was if there's not, which is fine. Obviously,
we all need to vote how we vote. We don't want to spend a lot more time on these things, right? So maybe for the next meeting or the one after we can prepare some materials that we'll send around obviously we get in the packet
for actual agenda items to discuss and maybe vote on not necessarily yes we want this vote on yes we should spend more time on this more or less. So just putting that out there for okay else to >> Jesse um as you mentioned that the the
the primary thing that I can remember where that kind of question about whether the board is interested in pursuing it or not had to do with limiting student housing and whether we were as a whole interested in that.
>> Correct. and vers and at that point in that conversation it was sort of versus >> trying to ex expand opportunities for housing in general. >> Correct. And I would I would phrase it slightly differently as not necessarily limiting but figuring out if there are
levers we can pull to limit where it might be and other places where there could be more. >> So I think we all we need more student housing. I'm not trying to reduce the number, but maybe the location and the density, etc., etc. Anyway, yes, that general topic.
>> Okay. All right. >> Correct. >> All right. So, uh, let us know when you're ready. And >> yeah, we'll we'll bring something back. >> Put it back on an agenda, assuming that it's not full of >> Yes. >> downtown design standards and East Ammeris resoning. >> Right. Thanks.
>> I I foresee we're going to have a busy spring. Okay, Bruce, you're next. >> Uh, I'll be in Europe for a month of that. Uh, but that's not why I put my hand up. Um, I just wanted to say that part of the uh the deliberations or
conversations on the North AmIst uh overlay uh and student housing uh focus and so forth. Um uh was that we should proceed as as Jesse has mentioned. Um, what I offered to do in that
conversation was to um put together a a a longer, more general narrative uh in making the case as to why this is a good idea and why the town should
embrace it. and uh and and um and what I also offered to do and or maybe just committed to myself to do was to break that down into a series of uh uh pieces of about 8 or 900 words long which uh
might appeal to the uh the bulletin gazette bulletin as uh to be published. It seemed to me that a good starting point would be to put this broad argument out uh publicly. Um I would be
doing it um under my own name or Jesse and I would Jesse is contributing to this if he chooses to be a co-author. That would be um appropriate. But it he may feel for various reasons that I'm a
big fat retired uh fellow who's fat, dumb, and happy and nobody can really do much to me anymore. So I'm I'm I'm easy at doing these kind of things. So that's the plan of the moment with me and with us is to develop this broad argument
which basically um makes the point that Amist is uh in a particular situation you know unlike most towns and uh and it turns and so that we've looked at many towns. What have we found? Uh we found that we
are essentially unique we think. Um what are these other towns doing? they're doing one of three things. Um these three things are um two of these three things are limited in various ways. The option that seems to be the ripest for
us is the uh the overlay approach uh that we are thinking of. So it puts it in a broad context. it makes the broad argument. Uh and uh and we hope that that kind of uh approach will help folks
appreciate that this is not uh um a knee-jerk reaction from some people on the planning board that just think that North Amist is yet again to be inflicted with the carrying the can for the rest of the town which was a little bit of
the reaction that we got from folks when we did our September presentation. So it's trying to get around that and and it's it it it may be a heavy lift. It may not work. But this we thought was the best way to proceed, the most
strategically intelligent way to go about this. And if we go down, we go down, but not because we didn't try hard. And hopefully we will have made some kind of impact on the town and uh uh that will be constructive. So that is
in process. >> Okay. Thank you, Bruce. Nate. >> Sure. Thanks. Yeah, I think you know I'll share the screen and we can go through the priorities. I think, you know, the first one is the mix building change. And so, you know, the
subcommittee feels like it's, you know, could be close to being ready in terms of zoning language and other things. And so then it's, you know, really we can talk about it tonight and then, you know, the board wants to talk about it again. Sure. But I think the idea would be right to change the calculation of the mixeduse space and maybe some other
piece in terms of some dimensional standards. It's not difficult in terms of changes to the bylaw. You know, I guess the considerations be what are the implications, but it could be that that moves forward faster. And then, you know, North Ammeris is something that is right being worked on in the meantime.
You know, there's a few other priorities of the subcommittee. And you know, I'll mention the student piece. I think it's really important. And so, you know, we just had the discussion about East Ammerst and I think Jesse, you mentioned, well, you know, could it be student housing? And you know I think
what what's you know what happens is everyone gets afraid of zoning because it will just become off-campus housing. And so I think it's a really important question to ask are there ways to could it be limiting it or offering avenues where it could be you know could you for
instance have an apartment building where you say a certain percentage of units is not for students. I'm not sure if that's legal or not. I'm not sure it's the best approach but we just we don't even know if we can. And so, you know, Bruce has done his research on State College Pennsylvania and they have
had things on their books for a while and, you know, in a conversation he had recently, they they feel pretty comfortable defending it. And so, it seems like they, you know, there's state law and then there's federal law, there's fair housing, there's things at the federal level. And we've always been cautioned, well, it doesn't meet a
number of things. But, you know, around the country there are communities doing something. So it seems like if they can do it and it's not violating fair housing and federal things then is it a state law in Massachusetts or you know what exactly is the barrier or reasons
why and so I I think it's so if you you know as a planning board if you have other questions you know we're developing a list I can share it at some point you know I think it's it's good to know we're trying to get answers to it whether it's through our legal counsel or talking with other communities like what what are some tools here and you
know for instance you know could if it's a special permit use typically. So in zoning, you know, if there's something allowed by right, but then there's something through special permit, you know, it can be a little more restrictive in terms of possible uses, it's hard to get into who the user is like the but you know, some places will
say a student house is a use is a zoning use like a land use classification and not a who lives there kind of use. And so, you know, maybe that's a way to do it. And those are the questions it's could be helpful to explore. Um, and it goes to the minimum distancing or some
other things. Is it a licensing program? And those are things the subcommittee has been discussing. I think, you know, feel free for the plane board. You can always email myself questions and we can share information out. So Nate, um you know, at one point when
this came up last fall, Mandy Joe had brought up the uh I forget what the legal phrase was, but that she was worried that that kind of thing would run a foul of treating everyone in a zone the same way. And you know, so I
have I I would support us putting together questions like that and any of the other ones that people have that are legal and sending them off to KP Law and saying, you know, we want we need your advice. We're trying to do something and we
we're not sure what we're allowed to do. So then you know assuming that the answer is yeah you can do whatever you want from a legal point of view then the question is what do we want to do and I think that's that's a harder you know it's it's it's it's a harder
conversation but it's a more honest conversation and um so I'd be fully supportive of doing that even though I don't really like the idea. Um, so Jesse, >> thanks. That that's really what I was
getting at. You said it much more clearly. Let's say we can legally define a student home, which means we can then legally decide where we some strategy for distancing or density, whatever. My
question for all of you is, do you would you support that? I know that's very open-ended, but if you're just opposed to the definition, >> if a majority of the bo board is opposed to the definition, period, I don't want to spend any more time trying to convince anybody. That that's my point.
>> Understood. Um, Bruce, >> um, what I learned and Nate's picked it up, uh, from Leair last Friday in in State College is that, uh, State College doesn't have it, uh, student home as a definition. They have it as a land use
classification and and Nate seems to understand the difference to that, but I just reported it. Um the second thing that I noted which I didn't mention in the state college report uh but I noted it elsewhere in my notes from other conversations Nate is that apparently
and I can look this up again but I apparently Newick Delaware found that they were um running a foul of state uh law. So it's goose you know good for
ganders and good for geese and so forth. may be that what's good in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is not good in Delaware but maybe okay or maybe not okay in Massachusetts. So I think uh I would hopefully that we would I mean I
suppose when you ask a lawyer question you you expect that they will do due diligence and not just take an overly conservative reaction. I hope we can get a thoughtful strategic response to that question and not uh an answer that
suggests that it's too much trouble. >> Well, I have heard KP Law say their primary task is to keep us out of court, >> which which suggests they're they're highly conservative. Yeah, I think no, but I think the
conversation, you know, it's it's been going on for many years. So, I think it's finally to the point where be nice to have some, you know, clarity and it could change, right? I mean, you know, it could change in a few years if there's court cases, but for now, what is, you know, what's reasonable, what's
legal, um, you know, what I right, I agree with Mandy. Things are supposed to be treated equally. And so a few years ago when I was reading some articles and talking to an attorney, not a town attorney, they said, "Yeah, the idea would be that it's any student, so graduates or whatever, and it's kind of
a blanket a term and you'd have to apply it very uh, you know, consistently across that term." And the recommendation was not to do it, but you know, it wasn't that you couldn't, it was just that there was, you know, you have to be careful with nuances. And so I mean those are the kinds of details
we'd like to have KP Law or someone examine, right? So how do you apply it fairly and what does that mean if you can? And so um and yeah, I think State College for whatever reason they've seemed to kind of thread that the needle
there and they it seems to be working. I will say that they have some rules. They also have a lot of you know bigger buildings in their downtown in terms of taller buildings. their zoning allowed it and now they're trying to catch up with saying well actually we uh there was an article Jesse had
forwarded to the subcommittee they hadn't done a a job of having say design guidelines or what's allowed in mixeduse buildings and on the ground floor and certain things so although they're getting the density I think they're now saying well are there other things we can tweak and modify and so I actually think that they're
the consequence or the impact that maybe was planned was to get people to live in downtown and have you know more people in the center which is good so they're not crowding in the neighborhoods and now they're saying well how can we still manage that in other ways so I you know I actually feel like you look at their
dashboard and how they do things it seems to be working in terms of where they have density and other things so it is it is having an effect I'm assuming that's what they intended but I'm not sure >> all right uh I see Angus you're next with your hand uh I assume you arrived
maybe a couple minutes ago so the time now is 7:22 >> yeah I think I arrived like 7:15. Um, >> 7:14 I noted. >> Okay. Thanks, Bruce. >> Hey. >> Um, and sorry everyone for being late. Um, I think to to specifically answer
Jesse's question, I think I would be less inclined to investigate this as a strategy. It it feels to me like, um, we can try to corral students, but it's it's unless we find places for them to live, we're going to run into the other
kinds of problems. Um, so to me I I I would investigate it, but um, we've heard from from people in the public who are really interested in this strategy. So I I think I would support getting trying to get some kind of a legal opinion so that um, not so much because
I'm I'm interested in pursuing it. Um, once we got to legal opinion, I would probably state similar similar things, but I think it would be helpful for us in communicating with the public to let them know that we we've gone down this path to get some legal advice. Um, I think we're probably not going to get a
clear yay or nay from the law firm. It's going to be, you know, degrees of liability. Um, but that would be clarifying to have have some information that we can share with people who who would like to like us to really be investigating this strategy. So, I think
that's kind of my dual. Personally, I'm not I'm not wild about it. I don't think it's a great approach to to coming up with student housing, but um but I'm open to the legal opinion and I think it'd be worthwhile. >> All right. Thank you. Uh we've got three
hands. Bruce, you're first again. Um I'm somewhere between I was I put up my hand because I uh propose of your comment Doug about KP Law's job was to keep us out of court and that immediately uh got me uh jonesed a
little because I I and Bob Mitchell years ago when Fred and I were first together you on the planning board that that's that was essentially Bob's job. He felt that that was keep our noses clean was the way he phrased that and and generally I think that's a good move
and I can understand that KP law might have that uh modus operande but sometimes you want to be the client who decides whether or not you want to keep dirty your nose a little. Um uh this is
a uh an issue about whether you can um do what something tkin to what state college has done is is is is a solution that's kind of uniquely apt to towns like us. There's very few towns in the country and I would say none of in in
the state of Mass in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts where this so I think that we would want KP law to give some opinion as to uh that would involve how much effort it would be take to defend this rather than just saying that you
would have to def you can't do it because you'd have to you would have to prevail in the court of law. I'd like to have a sense of how difficult it might be to do that because it may be that in certain specific parts of town or in some point in the future uh it would be
good to know uh how hard of a fight it would be to prevail if that was necessary and it's not just something that we could assume we would be able to do. >> Okay. All right, Fred.
Uh yeah, one uh I I agree with Bruce that uh one thing that we don't want to uh lose track of is is um well for one thing we do have a
definition of student home. We did the heavy lifting on that when we were trying to get it into the uh accessory dwelling unit discussion and we found out that the nature of state law wouldn't allow it in that context. But
uh we do have a good definition to start from. The other thing is uh somewhere in this mix uh let's not lose track of there is a there's a pretty good way uh and the
town I think has the data to support this in terms of um frequency of complaints that end up you know drawing the attention of the police force uh and that is uh whether or not the building is owner occup
occupied uh because that makes a huge difference. >> Okay. Thank you, Bruce or Fred. Uh Jerry, you're next. >> Thank you. Um uh I was just going to say
that I think, you know, uh it makes sense to ask the lawyers getting a legal opinion. I think yeah, I I'm absolutely in support of that. Um, but as a as a strategy, I I don't think it's the most
effective and it's not something that I personally will be investing any time working on, but that doesn't mean that that isn't what the board can work on. >> Okay. All right. Um, Nate, I guess, uh, one
question I I think I need to ask you. I think at least three of us have have expressed that we're not particularly enthused with that approach. If that's the case and the board is unlikely to want to proceed if it is if we got the legal opinion that it was in
fact legal for us to go that way, would you in fact want to spend the money on an attorney to get the answer? I mean, I I think several of us have said it would be perhaps helpful to have that answer even if we didn't support
it. But how do you how do you how does the town view that kind of situation in terms of spending its money? >> So, you know, like there's a report, you know, back from like 1991 and there's one before that, right? So,
it's like Michael Dukakus funded a study, you know, co housing and college communities and it's the same conversation we're having today. It's like it hasn't advanced much at all. And so whether it's about housing in general or student housing, I think it would be really important to have some of these
answers clarified. >> And so I think it's worth it. And so some of it would be um whether or not we actually have a definition of a student home. Some of it would be like, okay, well say we do. Can it be used in a licensing program?
you know, if if for nothing else to have better data than say the rental program we have, you know, can it be a use classification in Massachusetts? That's kind of interesting. What are the degrees of liability? I like that, Angus. Right. So, it'd be really important to understand to me if we if
we nudge the needle a little bit what what's kind of reasonable and what what goes beyond reasonable and and I you know, some of it what staff is saying and we hear you is that if we can regulate it, to me it's also we can allow it. And so if we, you know, I I I hear that there are certain
neighborhoods that, you know, we don't want to have the balance tip to become investor owned rental properties. Could we prevent that? But then say, you know what, here's areas where we actually want density. Say, and it and it could be, you know, we did that in University Drive. It wasn't specifically students. It's mixed use. But could
there be other areas in town where maybe we say we actually want student housing if that's a defined term in multi-unit buildings and properties. And so we're not even sure we can do that right now, right? We would just say, "Oh, that's an apartment building." But right now, we
limit apartments to so many units and it has to have a certain bedroom mix. And it's not allowed in any of these zoning districts where we think it might be appropriate to have this kind of density. And so, yeah, I think it's kind of worth it. Um, and you know, it might be that they come back and they're, you
know, they they have a few ideas and then we, you know, we can bring it back to the board and staff can decide, okay, how do we pursue this? I think we still need more housing of all different types for different demographics. And so I to me that would still be a goal. Um, you know, I, you know, I think there's some
staff, you know, I think North Ammeris, it's interesting. It the B the overlay we have is really big. I think if you look at the town and its proximity to UMass and what it's already developed, is there a way to allow that to be redeveloped? Maybe the idea of three times the density is a lot and it's too
much because that's what a consultant said it would need to take to have this reinvestment, this redevelopment, but you know, is there an opportunity to still allow some increased density in North Ammeris and maybe it's not this wholesale, you know, that was the maximum in the overlay anyways, but what
if, you know, you could allow apartments with more than 24 units in that area or you allow mixeduse buildings along the street or whatever it is just so there could be some some increase and not have it be a static thing that you know those units just stay what they are. They can never change because it requires a
special permit and most people don't want to go that route. And so you know to me those are interesting things and that way we're not actually zoning and calling it students. We're just saying you know it's multi-unit development. So I do think Doug though I you know I think there are some there's some nice points brought up tonight. There's ones
that staff have already listed in, you know, from previous planning board meetings. And so, yeah, I think it's just kind of interesting. You know, you hear other communities across, like I said, across the country are doing things and it's like, well, >> why why has it not done in Ammerst? >> And I Bruce, I do think there are other
communities in Massachusetts, right? Worcester had 10 I don't know if it's like eight or nine colleges and universities, you know, there's different, you know, UMass LOL is pretty big. So I think that some of it could be I think Amoris is um is unique in terms of its proportion ratios and I think the
housing production plan really highlighted that in some ways and there's a new wayfinder data the Donghue Institute report. So I think there's a probably a case we made that Ammeris and maybe a few other communities in the state could benefit from some of these ideas or tools.
>> Okay. All right. Well that's good. >> And I I was going to say we could turn to mixeduse building. So I'll share my screen. I think that >> yeah, >> you know, one of the first priorities was changing the mixeduse building standards and the the oh this document it's um the goals,
intent and purpose. I think that's visible for everyone. Uh or maybe I'll go here. This was kind of the first one, you know, could we bring this forward this spring? And the idea would be in outlying village center zones allow mixeduse buildings, you know, change the
calculation of the non-residential space. And, you know, there was a number of questions that the subcommittee and staff had. And what that really led to was this this statement in this document here. You know, the the goal is to really encourage it in, you know, um outside
the downtown. So, four zoning districts, RVC, BBC, commercial, and BN. And, you know, there's kind of two approaches to the strategy to incentivize mixeduse buildings in these village centers. Um, you know, change the proportion of
non-residential space and we already have a separate standard or calculation. It's on University Drive. And so, the idea would be to take that standard and apply it in these four village in these four village center zones. So in rather than 30% of the
gross floor area, it's 75% of the facade length along a street to a depth of 24 feet. And there's a few other kind of standards and conditions that would be applied there. Uh and then in thinking about it, in a lot of these zoning districts, there's an additional lot area per unit. So if
it's a 20,000 square foot minimum lot size, every unit would then need an additional so many square feet. So in the commercial, it's 4,000 square feet per unit. So, if you have an acre property, you're limited to five or six units on that entire property because of
this 4,000 square feet for additional for each additional unit. And you know, it's a it's a you know, so that's a kind of a density factor, right? it might you know there and so there's different ways to do density but the subcommittee said well that that metric right that
additional lot area should be changed or modified or something needs to change to you know even if we do the proportion of non-residential space this additional lot area is still going to be a disincentive especially in these outlying village center zones >> and so you know what this document is
saying well in and here's the dimensional table. It's four zones. It's 4,000 square feet in RVC, 4,000 in comm 2500 in BVC, and 1500 in BN. And then there's these little footnotes A and B.
The RVC and BVC and comm. And so essentially, this 4,000 square feet can't be modified or waved. It is what it is. And you know, the thoughts would range from, do we even need this additional lot area at all? um you know the the um I mean additional lot area
per unit because we have these other coverages that could you know could justify um you know you still can't build over a lot because of the mil maximum building and lot coverage or you know there's a footnote um within the table that says you know these can be modified through a
special permit by the permit granting authority and so you know I think the the subcommittee likes the idea of changing the calculation of first floor space I think there's a there's a discussion of what's happening in these four outline village centers. And just
to show you some of the idea about if you change this in these zoning districts, here's how the residential uses are allowed. And so mixeduse building is here. So you know in RVC it's a special permit. We're not proposing to change any of this. It's
site plan review in these other zoning districts. And so the thought would be if we can change the the first floor calculation this lottery calculation mixuse buildings would actually be incentivized in BVCBN and commercial. Um you know the other ones apartments
and town houses if we change that lot area it does impact the other residential uses. So these are all the residential use classifications in the bylaw. And so if we change the 4,000 to 2,000, it not only applies to mixies buildings, it apply to these other uses.
So in the RVC for instance, apartments are site plan review. You know, if we change that additional lot area, you know, would there be more apartments because, you know, now you you know, you could get more units in a building. You know, those are considerations. Just scrolling down, you know, there's a
few areas in town where this these zoning districts are located. And so in North Ammerst, you here's the intersection of Pine Meadow uh and Montigue Road, Sunderland Road. And so there's RVC along the streets and there's BVC just
right around the intersection. And then there's commercial up above. Here's Kohl's Road. So you know, here's the survival center and everything here. So the changes to mixed use would apply in these areas in North Ammerst in Main
Street along Dickinson Street. You know, there's BVC, commercial, and BL. It wouldn't apply to the BL here, but here's BN, BBC, and commercial. Here's Hamshaw Lumber in East Ammerst. There's a long strip of commercial along
College Street, and then there's RVC, BVC up here, actually by um on the Main Street. And then there's some little areas of BVC and then RVC. And so, you know, mixeduse buildings are allowed in these districts. We haven't
seen a lot of development of them. Um, there could be a number of reasons, but perhaps changing those few few factors could help. Um, and then in Palmory Village intersection, there's a lot of BVC surrounded by some RVC. >> Well, Nate, I assume that as part of
this, you we might consider altering the map. a little bit. >> So I I haven't considered that. Um I think you know that that's another to me that's you know so if we go back to East Ammerst I think what the consultant would look at they might say well here's
our study area and maybe the simplest solution is to make all of that BVC and then now within the within the BVC we think we should have these few changes you know maybe the lot area do something with mixeduse buildings and
parking or something um that could be for instance a strategy but in terms of what we're looking at now for mixed use buildings. We're not saying well now East Ammer should be all BVC. We're just saying let's change that calculation. >> Yeah. >> And additional lot area to do a map
change becomes a much bigger discussion in terms of say visioning for each village center. Uh and you know >> why why is that a much bigger issue? Well, what so I guess the question would be I guess that what what are you thinking like um
>> well I guess um you know I haven't thought I haven't got specific parts of town that I'm thinking about but I've always thought it was if if we have these seven or six or whatever village centers that the
I guess it's the BVC really ought to be kind of a circle around the center of that geographic zone. and that you know the RVC can be a concentric ring outside of it. And um so
that right now the village centers feel very fragmented and sort of uh I don't know maybe illogical from a sort of ideal point of view. I mean, I understand that some of the like the BBC
is probably where the businesses were when that zoning was created. And so, is that static fact something we want to maintain or are we open to
expanding that area? you know, um that's the kind of thing that I'm I would think we would want to talk about, but maybe that is too big a conversation and would bog down the the mixeduse conversation, you know, beyond beyond a a palatable
length of time. I I I so I agree with you, Doug, that right there's this kind of hierarchy or this, you know, succession of say density or zoning. It seems odd especially here we have RVC and then there's BVC up here when you think that
the kind of denser area is all here which could be better served by BVC and then this actually would be RVC. So I'm not you know I think there's ways to look at that. Um I'd be curious to hear from the board. To me it seems like it's a little beyond what we were considering. I don't
know if we want to roll it into it. Um but >> Okay. All right. Well, I mean, there there there have been times that I've been thinking that uh we really just don't have enough zoning districts. Like, we really ought to be saying, you know, what do we want
to see on North Pleasant Street, you know, between this street and that street and zone it as a as an area. And maybe that's similar to some other part of town, but it's like having like having making a change in the BBC and
having it apply all over town to sort of disperate physical conditions, you know, feels like it keeps us from making changes to those zones because, oh, you know, in one of the seven places
where there's BBC, uh, it's going to be an undesirable outcome. Well, okay, let's split that area out of the B BBC and just zone that the way we want it to be zoned. So, I don't know.
>> All right. Uh, thank you for listening. Uh, Jesse, you're next and then Angus. >> Uh, great. Thanks, Doug. Generally, I agree with you that we should have that conversation. Also, I don't think that should prevent us thinking about this change because I think this could be a
pretty well say a swift change that could make some impact in some projects over the next year or two versus I think a changing in zoning which in my view would probably
take a substantial amount of time not because we couldn't agree just because that's what would Okay, Angus. >> Yeah, I would I would agree with Jesse that I I I think the map should be left as it is. I'll just say changing all four of these zones with the additional
lot area requirement would actually change all of the all of this these two major intersections, right? It's it's changing BBC, RBC, and commercial. So, without changing any map lines, you'd be able to change a fair amount all at
once. Um, generally, just to your point, Doug, about kind of spot byp um, zoning, I would generally not push for that. Um, I think I would, uh, on the one hand with infinite resources, I think that could be a great way to to run
development, but I think, um, I think it would make it very challenging for people who are trying to get projects approved when they think about different parts of town to have to go through bespoke zoning for every part of town. So, I think my inclination and what I'm trying to think through with the office
park and PRP is actually combining zones and shrinking them um to make the system a little bit more manageable. I mean, I think it's it's I think uh interesting that a town of of, you know, roughly
15,000 year round residents has uh six different residential zones um for instance, and then five separate business zones. That that seems to strikes me as a little bit excessive, but that might be a difference of
opinion. That's neither here nor there. >> All right. Thanks, Angus. you know, at at a different moment in time, I'd completely agree with you. >> You know, I like simplicity, too. So, >> so just just quickly on the calculation,
to me, the zoning change would look something like this. We're not removing any language. We're just whatever is in bold is new. So, we'd say that in the general business in BG, this applies. So, this is already in the bylaw. We're just adding kind of this this lead in.
And then we'd say in the village center RVC, the ones we just followed, these are the conditions that now apply. And these are taken from the University Drive overlay. So they're not, it's nothing new. Um, you were saying 75% of the facade to a depth of 24 feet should
be, you know, non-residential use. To the extent feasible, a majority of the street facing facade should be built along the width of the lot frontage and located along the front setback line. Right? So that, you know, you're not getting the the small end of the building, narrow end facing the street. you're really trying to build out across
that the lot. Um, you know, after accounting for the depth of 24 feet, parking can be on the first or ground floor and a additional mixuse buildings are permitted on a single lot or more than one. Uh, and they could have less um ground
floor space, but then it has to be, you know, compensated for in the first building. So, you're not losing any of that non-residential space. And then in all zoning districts, these other uh conditions still apply. And this would be the chance to change this if we
wanted. Um you know this 50% you know sometimes people say well really what does that mean? The idea is to try to get you know some variation and they can kind of accommodate it without too many problems but you know so this so to me this would be the
changing that first floor space. I think the next question would be how do you address that additional lot area and so you know I can share my screen in a second there and so you know to me it's like okay planning board if we kind of like where this is going you know maybe
we bring it back to me it would be like okay let's talk think about it tonight bring it back at the next meeting we talk about it and then are we actually comfortable saying this is ready to be referred to town council and you know maybe we preview it with the CRC this in March or we let them know what's happening but you Even to me it's like
so even if we think this is moving forward and we like it, it goes to council in April, it gets referred back, you know, we could play out the timeline. Well, it's in hearing for a few months, goes back to council for first read, second read, maybe it's voted on in October or November, right? So there is there is a process here that
we'd like to, you know, factor into some of these things. So um you know, that's why in my in my my um in this one, Doug, I had May. >> Yeah. And maybe in some of the other ones, you know, it's like, okay, maybe this would have been in October and then
we're scrolling down, you know, this cottage style October. So, how do we, you know, while this is moving forward through the hearing process, the subcommittee and the board can maybe be talking about one of these other ideas and then that gets forwarded at the end of near the end of the year so that we have, you know, kind of this these
overlapping zoning things. Uh, and I know it's a lot of work for staff and you, but otherwise, if we just propose this for just this year, we might only have one zoning amendment voted on this year. And maybe that's okay, but I'd like to try to have a few more.
>> Okay, Jared. >> Thank you. Um, okay. So, I just want to like think about I'm thinking about the timeline here. So, we just got the downtown standards um published today for comment. Then we have the East
Ammerst uh village study going over the course of the year and we'd be passing this bylaw either I guess mid mid year or later at the end of the year. I'm just like thinking I don't want to wait for the study to necessarily make these these
bylaw changes but um in terms of sequencing I'm just wondering I don't know if you have any thoughts related to that like if there are any particular strategies that would be better suited waiting for the study which ones would be better suited to
advance um because we we have enough information >> and that's a question for Nate Yes. >> Uh, no, it's a it's a really good question. You know, at the previous u one meeting, I think Jesse said, you know, it's hard to always keep waiting for studies
because there's so many. So, I think the downtown design standards don't apply in East Ammerst. I've always thought though, if we like what the standards are showing, you know, we can adopt them and apply them to East Ammerst. So, okay, wow, now we've incentivized mixed use buildings. Maybe the board adopts
some of those standards and if it's rules and regulations or design guidelines and we use it as part of our permitting, you know, so that could happen kind of quickly. Um, >> great. Okay, that makes sense. And in terms of the East Ammeris piece, I think yeah, I think you know, so as this is moving forward to the changes to
mixeduse buildings, >> the consultant could say, well, actually, I think maybe there needs to be some other changes, but you know, we're asking them to look at specifically East Ammerst. And so these other zoning districts are, you know, North Ammerst, Main Street, Pommemoroy, and others. So I think the mixeduse
building can happen, can move forward. I don't think that there would be any, you know, if there needs to be changes, I'd say, well, maybe we can pivot quickly and do that. Um, but I don't see that we're changing mixeduse buildings in such a way that it's so radical. It's not like we're, >> you know, changing, we're not changing
like dimensional standards. We're not saying, you know, seven stories or 100% buildout. We're just saying this first floor piece and it's only a minimum right now. Instead of saying 30%, we're saying it's 75% of the facade length. Really encourage it along the street. >> Yeah. Uh, and then we're maybe going to
change this additional lot area. So, I don't see it as like radical changes that the study may have something different. >> Great. >> Thank you. All right. >> So, just to I just want to share my screen again. I just just to um illustrate some of the changes.
Uh, here's um um Southeast Street Common. So, it's the one behind Florence Savings Bank in East Ammer. So, it's uh It's it's this uh project right here. And you know what? This was before there
was the some standards in the mixeduse uh in the bylaw. So they have, as far as I can tell, a really small existing mixeduse portion here are what's shaded in. And then, you know, in the blue would be what 30% looks like.
And then the red in Southeast Street is right along here on the bottom. And the red is what 75% of the facade length along the street would look like to a depth of 24 feet. And so you know if right now there's 1,200 square feet, 30%
is about 4700 75% of the street facing is about 3600. So it is less. Um you know in some instances it wouldn't be um you know sometimes this is more comparable depends on the shape of the building right? So if you have a bigger building, 30% is bigger even if it's not along the
street. Uh so you know five University Drive down um on the corner of AMD University Drive, you know, currently they were proposing 44% of the ground floor be non-residential. So again, typically zoning sets a
minimum or a maximum. So they went beyond the minimum. Uh and then in the red is what you know the what the un what the overlay actually requires. So you know 75% of this length to a depth of 24 feet which
is much much less than the um it was proposed and 30% is outlined in blue. So just to show you that you know depending on what how the building is designed and the shape you get you know different space allocations. Um I think you know
the subcommittee felt pretty comfortable with putting this forward as the standard in these outline centers though. I think the next question really is, you know, so here's what this would look like in the use chart. I think the next question is really what happens with um
sorry for the scrolling the dimensional the dimensional piece here. These boxes got moved a little bit. You know, do we have you know a footnote? You know, we have an A, B, an M in the in this dimensional table. I mean I
could proceed proposing you know footnote C that says you know it could be as simple as for mixeduse buildings this condition may be modified by the permit granting authority and you know if it's a site plan review use then the planning board modifies it if it's a
special permit use it's modified by the zoning board you know there's probably a number of ways to approach this and so I think some of it would be you know planning board you know what do you what do you think the subcommittee had said do we just eliminate it and have no additional lot area in these zones because these zones are kind of
protected based on how uses are allowed. So in the BVC, you know, town houses, apartments, subdividal dwellings are all special permit mixeduse buildings are site plan review. So even if we got rid of the additional lot area in BBC, someone's going to come and propose, you
know, some dense town housing, it's a special permit use to the zoning board. So there's already, you know, some safeguards there through that special permit use. and it can change the density because they can say, "Wow, that doesn't really match what we want to see." Same within BN. A lot of the, you
know, um, multi-unit development is special permit. We're not changing that. So, you know, I think if we change that first floor calculation, I think we still have to figure out how we address this additional lot area. And I guess, you know, you know, I'd have my ideas, the subcommittee might have theirs, and
I don't know, planning board, if you have some suggestions as Are you Well, I mean, you're looking for suggestions at the moment. >> Yes. >> Okay. Well, I guess I would say I I I would be comfortable eliminating them in those areas.
I mean, I I suppose that's probably at the extreme end in terms of the the option or the sort of approaches you were uh describing. Um, but you know, I'd like
to see a few things change. So, you know, if the pendulum swings a little bit far and a few things happen, that's that'd be fine with me. >> Uh, Angus. >> Yeah. On the housing and zoning subcommittee, we we talked about this as well, and I think, you know, I think
more of us I I know I I came down on just eliminating the additional lot area uh per family requirement. And I think adding uh the alternative of adding more footnote um material accomplishes the same thing but in a more complicated way. So I think it's just simpler to to
simply eliminate it. >> Well, you I suppose you need the the footnote if you're going to keep some sort of number, >> right? So >> whereas if you're just going to eliminate any sort of additional lot area, then you can just take this off and not have a footnote,
>> right? Right. So in BVC for instance uh it's 2500 but then there's a footnote A and B. So what A is saying that through a special permit through the permit grading authority. So you know how the planning board will issue a site plan review it would then be act as a special permit granting authority. So in BVC
you know planning board can modify this 2500 down to however they whatever they you know works for that project. >> Okay Bruce >> I I also agree with you Doug and Angus. uh the uh um taking out the number uh
and and and and not trying to keep the number with some footnotes of for two reasons. Uh one is that it's demonstrabably clearer uh about what we're trying to achieve which is to get get more opportunities to build more housing in places that we think it's
appropriate. So having discretionary uh giving boards discretion and so forth is not as um overtly invitational uh to people
thinking to develop or taking development initiative as as having uh uh no number there at all. means that uh it's it's a it's a it's a clearer and stronger invitation to go in the
direction that we think we want to go. Uh Nate's pointed out that there is still you know over overview by by permit granting authorities and so forth. But the other thing that would happen is that in the course of uh public hearings
on this um we could probably get a lot of we would got we probably get more valuable information if we did the more radical move. Um we might find out for example that there are particular parts particular districts or places in towns
with in these districts or abuting and so forth where we might think golly you know um it really isn't a good idea to take these numbers out or if it is to it would be better not to keep them but to reduce them or something but I think
that the public uh uh hearings around this would be more interesting if we were to proceed with uh taking the numbers uh taking the numbers out and proposing it that way. >> All right, Jesse.
>> Yeah, I I agree. That's all. >> Well, I don't know. We're approaching a majority of the board that's agreeing with that. Nate, you might actually get a clear indication from us out of this meeting. >> Okay. Um,
you know, Nate, one other thing that probably muddies the water for your effort uh that comes to mind though is if we took take them out of these three uh areas, it kind of begs what are you going to do you really need them in the BG,
you know, do you really need the additional lot area in the BL? Um, and maybe it's just out in the sort of outlying and less dense residential zones that that's where that that that applies.
>> Yeah. I mean, so, you know, right now in the BL, it is a a limiting factor of why there hasn't been a lot of development because the lots are small. So, >> you know, with the 4,000 square feet in the BL, >> again, there's no provision for a waiver. So, you have a 20,000 foot lot.
you know, the um this B footnote means that the 20,000 doesn't apply, but really you're only left with getting a few units on a property that's half an acre. So, >> right. >> Well, like I said, that probably muddies your your effort. You know, I think for
this round, you might be better off just ignoring the BG and the BL. >> Yeah, we have >> that that's going to stir up a different hornets nest. >> And I think to Jar's point, you know, that's also part of the downtown design standard area. So, Yeah, >> you know, there has been development in
the downtown. So, we feel like the the zoning is working a bit. So, you know what? >> Well, you know, we haven't seen it in the >> development in the BG, but not in the BL. >> Not in the BL. Yep. >> Okay. All right. Um,
so Nate, does have we uh talked enough about general housing this evening? >> Yeah, I think we have. I just want to bring up the letter idea. Okay. Yeah. >> And I, you know, so I don't, you know, I don't feel strongly one way or the
other. It just felt like after, you know, when Jeff came to the planning board and then after he left, the discussion, you know, kind of carried on and it seemed like, okay, maybe the board felt strongly enough to, you know, put something down in writing. And so I I just wanted to circle back to
that and ask if that was the case because, you know, um, like I said, it it's an opportunity to do that. If not, you know, we can just we'll I can we can let it go. I just wanted to make sure that the board member, you know, that the board feels like, okay, if we wanted to write a letter and, you know, highlight these points, we can. That's
all. >> Okay. Well, I mean, my memory of the letter is that some of the early conversations of the letter was that maybe it should go to UMass or, you know, somewhere somewhere other than
the town manager. Um, you know, and I think it was also or I at least felt like some of part of the issue was that some of the things that we thought maybe should happen were things that wouldn't really be able to
be done through zoning. Uh, you know, some of the sort of behavioral things that are uh undesirable about houses rented by undergraduates. um at least
weren't something that were going to be covered by zoning and maybe could be covered through the general bylaw. You know, you know, you can't have any car parked on your grass. Um you know, that kind of thing. Um so,
I don't know. I mean, there was a point where I felt like I mean, I know I said I didn't think it made sense to to write a letter to you, Mass because we don't really have any direct influence or communication with
them. Um, and that I I hope I think that's why we ended up talking about the the town manager because he has that relationship with UMass Jera and then Jesse. >> Thanks, Doug. Um, well, I know at least
from from my perspective that my tirade that evening was just me speaking on my behalf and I didn't feel compelled to like write a letter on on on behalf of the board or um but I appreciate the idea, Nate. And um but I'm I'm not sure
a letter would be the most uh the most effective way to go about this. But are we still are we still planning on having like a joint session between us, ZBA, Affordable Housing Trust, CRC sometime this spring? Because like that
would be a wonderful opportunity to invite the town manager and UMass representatives to be a part of that conversation. um rather than painstakingly committeebased letter writing.
>> Yeah. So um yeah, you know, I was going to mention it later in the meeting that you know, the trust meets next week on March 12th and you know, we're trying to find time on their agenda for the planning board to discuss the housing production plan and what you know, planning board is working on for 26. And so, you know, I was gonna ask if a few
representatives wanted to go or we could have it as a, you know, combined meeting, but that would be the first conversation and my thought would be that it could, you know, be then a series of conversations, start small. at this point we can you know go to this but really just kind of
understand because the housing trust um is really working on a few things and so I just want to get the board to have you know some understand what their CRC has in mind. So yeah I I still plan for that for the month month of
March and April and really see lands. Um and you know some of it would be you know maybe the board you know does this and the trust does this but maybe there's opportunity for collaboration and help work I don't you know I think there's a
lot from the plan to have a conversation >> Nate I'll say you are breaking up at least for me and I think some other people as well so >> not that you should stop talking but uh you might want >> that's great >> might want to turn off your video, you
know, when you talk. Uh, okay. So, Jara, there, you know, there's this meeting next week that Nate was thinking we might introduce ourselves. Um, and then it sounded like maybe there
would be more opportunities after that. >> That sounds great. I'm happy to attend next week's meeting. >> Okay. I believe it's on next Thursday night. Okay. I >> believe I don't know what time, but uh
>> Yeah, Nate will let those of us that are interested know. >> Am I audible now? >> You are. Yep. >> All right. Yeah. So, I think I I don't know if it's at six or seven, but it would be Thursday in the evening. And you know, if more than four members of the board want to go, we could just post it as a dual meeting. Um like I said,
this I envision is probably the first of a few meetings. Um, but really this would be to outline our, you know, the zoning priorities. We looked at, you know, what the trust thought of the housing production plan matrix and just kind of hear what, you know, is there something else that the trust might want the board to work on or vice versa? And,
you know, are there opportunities for collaboration? >> All right. Uh, Jesse, >> thanks. Uh, couple points. I'll try and be quick. Uh, Doug, something you said about behavior stuff. I I don't think we
should ever talk about that in zoning terms. >> It's not something we can deal with, >> right? Just want to state that it's not part of what I think about at all. I mean, neighbor-wise, yes, but zoning regulation, no. Um, I do think there's legs for uh dilapidated properties for
the town to do something, but that's also a different issue, not for my thinking here. on the question about the letter. What I took away from that conversation and unfortunately again comes down to what we as a majority feel
in my time involved with planning board in my time living in town which is 20 years in my time I spent looking at past conversations which is probably far too much time from old planning board old town meetings old subcommittee meetings
there's there's never been anything actually done as a result of the town trying to pressure UMass to do more about housing. As far as I can tell, there were lots of study or at least two studies which said very clear things and
nothing's ever come of it. So, I as an individual would certainly feel strongly about writing to the town manager and the council to say, "Hey, why not pull every lever you can? We're in a crisis." I would support us as a board doing the
same thing, but I don't know if we all feel that way. Right? So, that's where I left that conversation about maybe drafting something as a planning board because that's a very significant or could be a very significant piece of
a solution if UMass were to take some action. I'll stop there. >> Okay. Johanna, >> I don't I I appreciate the concern, Jesse. I don't think it's the right
tactic just because the town has its like whole town gown process and um you know, we've heard the university say that they feel kind of comfortable and proud of how many people they house on campus. So, um yeah, I
don't think it's the right tactic. >> Okay. Uh Bruce, >> frankly, I think we should try our best to make the university not feel comfortable. They can feel proud uh limited, but I I think we have a situation here which they can't uh the
university can't feel proud of being uh above average, which is all they are. >> Okay, Jesse, >> sorry, one more quick point I left out. If I recall correctly, two years ago when we did meet with Tony and Nancy and
Paul I think was actually at the meeting also >> we as a board were actually sort of told no don't communicate with UMass. So a letter to UMass from us seems not appropriate at all. So the only other option is to the manager and the council maybe.
>> Agreed. And Jesse, um, you know, just I'm not sure it really matters in terms of our conversation, but, uh, I I feel like the Fieldstone project is the result of the,
uh, town, what was it called? the the UTAC, University Town of Ammerst collaborative process that that came after the U3 the joint study about, you know, where
UMass could put some more housing. Um, I feel like there there actually is a pretty direct line from that U3 report to Fieldstone. >> Okay. So, so we have one I have one data point on that side,
>> but it doesn't change your argument. >> Okay, Nate. >> Sure. Yeah. If the you know if the letter isn't written, I do feel like you know you know your your voice has been elevated, right? I think you know with Jeff and you know with you know with more conversations with staff I think
you know the town manager is hearing it. So you know whether or not you know we you know that'll lead to certain actions I think you know um you know we are looking at you know the rental registration uh the rental permitting a little bit more you know how can we you
know improve it and you know how do we change zoning and you know there's another um committee with UMass and housing. So there are things that are happening um and I think that you know a letter could just formalize the planning board's view or some statements. I do think they're making their way to the
town manager though. So, you know, it's really, you know, do we want to reinforce it with a letter or not? And, you know, Jar, I wouldn't say you're on a tirade. I just thought, you know, from that meeting from all the board members, there was a lot of good discussion and, you know, was it worth trying to summarize it in a memo just so others
could hear it and, you know, because I do think it's important. I think the student housing is important. Um, and I think they're hearing it. I think it's, you know, not just from the planning board, right? I think, you know, there's a citizen petitions, you know, it's been discussed at other boards and committees in town. So, I think it's finally
something that people are talking about, uh, you know, in different perspectives and different places. >> All right. Um, Nate, are we done with general housing? >> I think so. >> All right.
Time is 8:12 on my clock. We usually take a break around this time. Let's take five minutes. >> Do you want to take a public comment on this before we break? Uh happy to do so. Sure. There are still three attendees.
Uh members of the public, do any of you want to make a comment, excuse me, about this uh general housing discussion you listen to? I am not seeing any hands raised. So let's let's break and come back in 5
minutes. Uh I I have 812 now. So that would be what? 8:17 17. All right, let's see. We are all back, I think. Oh, no. Angus is not here. Actually, it looks like Fred is not back either,
although his video's on him. >> Yep. There's there's Fred. >> While we're waiting, um did u did you is the I I saw the downtown standards um the invitation to attend the meeting
at the Unitarian Church. Is the document itself uh in draft available? >> Yeah, I was going to mention that, but it is. So, if you went to the the link the down if you go to the planning department under projects and the downtown design standards there there's
three volumes for them and they're uh the public can download and view them. They're >> okay. Thank you. And we we're all here now. >> Yes, we are. Okay. All right. So, time is 8:22.
We'll go on to excuse me. The next item uh is old business starting with site plan review 2026-02 with Ammeris College on 40 Dickinson Street. Review final landscape plan with
additional plantings along Dickinson Street in accordance with condition number 18 of the site plan review decision for that property. Nate, um you want to put that on the screen?
Jay from Ammeris College is here. He'll be joining us as a panelist shortly. >> And yeah, this was a condition that they returned, you know, and pro uh provide a revised landscape plan. So that's what they've done. >> Angus, I see you have your hand raised.
Oh, >> yeah. I'd like to um abstain from any decisions here and also be moved to being a panelist because Amoris College is my employer. I will wait for you then to be >> Yeah. How come I'm having a hard time?
>> I mean, Angus, it would be fine with me if you just muted and turned off your video and >> Sure. >> I'll I'll change your role to attendee and then we can bring him back. >> Okay. >> Okay. All right. So, um Jason, welcome.
>> Hi. Good evening all. How's everybody doing? >> Fine. >> Good. All right. So, I think this will be a pretty quick one. Uh I will share the last comment for the condition
which was at the west corner of the building. Adding one more tree which at this lot here you can see which was originally pavement. Then we created a a grass area. And now we are adding one
more uh lace um lace leaf Japanese maple same caliber as approved elsewhere in the plan which will shade this area from the sidewalk. >> Okay.
>> So it open up there's >> that's the only change is the one additional tree. >> Correct. Yep. That was the only last request for other condition. Mhm. All right, board members, are we okay with this uh this planting plan? I see a couple of
heads nodding. If you if you object, please raise your hand. All right, I don't see any objections. Nate, do we need to take a vote on this or can we simply observe that the applicant returned and we heard what he
did? Yeah, I can say that there was a, you know, consensus agreement that the condition was satisfied. >> Okay. All right, Jason, thanks for taking some time out of your evening and I guess you are free to go.
>> I appreciate everybody's time. Have a good night. >> What's the estimated uh schedule for construction and when will we see that tree? Uh so the construction for the parking um and the road work, it's going to take place starting in June. It's about a one
month schedule and plantings since it's going to be in the summer, we're going to wait a little bit closer towards the fall planting season. >> Okay. So we'll see the most of the work this summer. >> Correct. >> All right. Thank you. >> All right. Thanks all. Have a good >> good night.
All right. Now we can bring uh Angus back, I guess. >> There he is. >> All right, welcome back, Angus. >> Thanks so much. >> All right, so uh we'll go on with old business. Uh did we have any other old
business on topics not reasonably anticipated? 48 hours. Oh, Jesse, I see your hand. >> Thanks. I had a procedural question about old business and if there's a way to not make someone like Jason wait two hours for two minutes if if that's
anticipated that's something that quick. Is there a way to put that at the front of the agenda? >> Uh I suppose we could try that. Yeah. Yeah. He >> he he wasn't waiting long. >> No, no, he was in the I thought he was >> he was waiting for a while. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's not that important. It's just >> Yeah, you're right. I mean, >> good comment. >> Let's see what we can do. So, uh Pam and Nate, no other old business?
>> No, >> for me. >> All right. Uh what about new business? Any new business? It's not anticipated. Actually, Angus, and now I see your hand. >> I'm sorry. I I don't I don't really know who's allowed to talk during old business, but um I guess I I had a
question for Nate about something that was that was old business a long time ago, which was the East Ammerst Historical District. Um my understanding is it's it's going to be going to the town council. Is that is that the next step in the process? I'm just wondering if there's any information on where that
stands. >> Sure. Yeah. So the uh you know the study committee which is also the local historic district commission finalized the report. They voted on it in February. Mass historic had minor
comments so they reviewed it. So essentially it's the report's finalized. I think the map boundaries finalized and so yeah it's just kind of in the queue to get um before town council. So, I think the idea was, you know, I'm not sure, maybe April it would be try to be
brought to council or sometime in the next month or two. Uh, and then, you know, I don't know if council would refer it back to the CRC or others, but right, I mean, it's it's kind of in, you know, it's it's ready to move forward in terms of that respect.
>> And Nate, um, it's it won't come to us, right? >> It No, it's not required to. So the board had you know you had your one I mean you could always >> um if you wanted to discuss it and write a letter to council at some point we can keep you informed of that but it's not required to come back to the funding board at all.
>> Okay. Well I think it would be you helpful probably to us as individuals at least to to know when there will be opportunities for the public to comment on it. >> And if I could just ask a clarifying
question. It appears to me that a significant portion of the historical district overlaps with the East Ammerst zoning area that y'all are considering. And so I guess I'm I'm wondering I know that the town manager proposed this
historical district and encourage the historical commission to look into it. Um, and yet the and the town manager is also pushing the East Ammerst or or at least the planning department is pushing the East Ammerst change. So I I guess I'm trying to get a sense
of what the town's position is on both possibly increasing density on in an area that I think is right for increasing density while simultaneously pushing a historic district over a significant portion of that area. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think they're
mutually exclusive. I know there may be differences of opinions, but East Amoris is the oldest village center in town. It is a historic town common with some of the oldest Exon structures in town. So I don't, you know, if we were to have redevelopment along that town common and along that area of Main Street, to me,
it would be guided by the design guidelines and review of the local historic district commission. You know, even now the zoning allows for changes that, you know, haven't, you know, happened or been proposed. So I think some of it would be with EMR study. I don't know how far north of Route 9 we'd go. You know, are we really going to,
you know, I think that's something for the board and the consultant to look at like do we really want to have um denser multi-unit development around the common or do we want to keep it residential in nature? And so I don't, you know, I don't necessarily see a conflict there. I think, you know, like I said, others may disagree, but I think
that they can both work together. I guess one of one of the questions that I'm struggling with is it it seems like we're kind of holding off on thinking about East Ammeris too much until this decision is made and yet they're moving they're potentially going to be moving forward with the historic district before that's done. So I guess that
that's where I'm I I I take your point that they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, but at the same time I guess I'm a little unsure about the order. >> Well, local historic district isn't zoning, right? It's in the general bylaw, so it's not a land use regulation. And that's this is something
that's taken over a year to get to where it is. So, you know, the town manager didn't say like exactly where to have the boundary. There was a demolition that occurred on a very old house in East Ammerst. And afterward it was kind of like well you know there really are no protections here you know and the
suggestion was oh could this be you know the the historic district commission was looking at could there be a local historic district maybe near downtown or in a few areas and at a meeting was suggested that east is actually appropriate to look at and that's what end up you know rising to the top and so
you know that's h that's already gone through its process and so I don't you know the it could wait a few months but I I think it would be you know my guess is in the next three months it's going to be brought to town council. I don't think it's like I said I don't think it's inconsistent with changing the zoning. It's not a land use regulation.
It's it's a general bylaw. But >> thank you. >> Okay. >> All right. Any any other Let's see. I had started to get to new business. Um Nate and Pam, no other new business.
No, >> I don't think so. >> Okay. How about form A and R subdivision applications? >> No, not tonight. Nope. >> Nothing. >> Nope. >> And upcoming ZBA applications.
>> The um I don't know if I mentioned this last time up on Kohl's uh road, there's an arcade going in in the um the Big Red Barn. So, Tilted Orbit is its name. I think it's an arcade and something else,
but uh it's a special permit use. So, that's something that is is uh moving forward. I'm not sure. Yeah, I think there's, you know, there's other projects that are kind of in the queue, but this is one that's, you know, just starting. So,
>> Okay. >> I guess it's an arcade with a bar. Yeah. >> Okay. And where where is it on in the is it in that sort of strip little tiny strip mall that's across from the Mson
Library or where is it? >> No, no, it's actually in in the Mill District. It's in what was Atkins North. So it's in that >> Okay. >> The barn building, I should say. It was >> Okay. Barn. >> Yeah, I did. That didn't mean anything to me. >> Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
>> Where we had coffee. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Nearby. >> Nearby. nearby, right? Okay. Um, let's see. Upcoming SBP, SPR, SUB applications. Anything to give us a
preview of? Uh, no. So, you know, there had been the mixeduse building maybe uh in East Ammerst and that's going through the conservation commission right now and there's some pure review there. And so, you know, the decision was to not bring it to the planning board until it went
through the conservation commission just because it'll be a number of months and it could result in some changes. And so, you know, that had been actually submitted and filed with the town clerk and before it was advertised as a public hearing, which we would have had the other meeting, we, you know, we the applicant had the ability to withdraw
it. So essentially that is now tabled until it gets further with the conservation commission. Uh there's a few others around town but nothing that's getting ready. Uh so there's like three or four where property owners are thinking about doing something and you know my guess is that we probably see
them in the next few months if if they move forward. >> Okay. All right. The time just for the record is 8:35. We'll move to planning board committee and liaison reports. Bruce, anything for PVPC?
>> Yes, there was the uh meeting last week. Um uh a bunch of business has done but but but what is interesting about these meetings mostly is the presentations and there was a particularly uh interesting one I thought that the uh combination of
wayfairers and particularly Mike McN of the Donahghue Institute. Now, I think I sent a link to this and uh and so forth. So, uh I've already kind of reported on that, but I thought it was the the uh
the links to the the the the dash data tables and so forth are actually on the Wayfinders website, but it it looks like there's just a a great deal of data on housing uh in various towns. uh in western
Massachusetts. This one actually included Berkshire County as well. So, it's a 4count study that the Donahghue Institute did, but uh um it's a resource and uh um potentially quite useful. So,
it's mostly Nate, you're probably familiar, but just in case you weren't, uh that dashboard looked like it would have lots of stuff. There's an there's a couple of couple of links on the the on the on the wayfinder site that gives a lot of
information. So, um quite valuable, quite interesting. Um that's it from me. >> All right. Thank you, Angus CPAC. >> Yeah, we wrapped up our final meeting at the beginning of February. um and we
made recommendations uh for amounts and voted on them. Um you can go to the um uh CPAC uh page on the town website and if you
go to the packets um I haven't seen a final report. Our chair uh Katie Zobel is supposed to I think write one to the town council but I haven't I haven't seen a copy yet. But you can at least in our last meeting packet for 2025, you can see the recommendations um for
uh affordable housing. Uh we did the full $450,000 request for AMD Street redevelopment. Um so um that was our recommendation there. We voted to fully fund a part-time planning and housing
coordinator for three years um at $90,000 and then um the affordable the municipal housing trust asked for $575,000. We uh granted $325,000. So about $250,000 short of what they
were asking. Um but we had to trim in a lot of different places because we had a huge number of requests. um and a huge numerical amount of requests for a limited amount of money. Um I can talk to other things on on the CPA if people
are curious. Um I think the most contentious thing was pickle ball courts and the Jones library. Um and I'm happy to talk about either of those or anything else that people might be curious about. >> All right. Thank you, Angus.
Anybody want Angus to talk about anything else on CPAC? No, I don't see any hands. Angus, I guess you're you don't need to say anymore. >> All right. And then for design review
board, uh I see my name after that, but Nate, I haven't seen any correspondence uh about that from anyone. Yeah, it was um in preparing for this meeting, I made a note to myself that
you know the town manager uh was made aware that you were um you know voted by the planning board and I I you know I think I I need to circle back to say what you know the question was what's the next step? >> Yeah. >> And it was never quite understood. Um so
>> okay well I'm standing by. I I guess that's all I can report. >> Sure. >> Yeah. I don't know that they they're meeting in March on March 16th, but I don't think they've I'm not sure what you know I think they met in February and reviewed one uh one sign
application. >> Okay. All right. I guess that's it for planning board committee and liaison reports. Uh next item is report of the chair. I really don't have any report this evening.
Uh report of staff. Nate Pam. >> Sure. Yeah. I just have two things. On March 11th, there will be the open house for the downtown design standards. So, Dodson and Flinker and staff will be at the Unitarian Universal Society starting at six o'clock. And there'll be a
presentation maybe an hour long from the consultant outlining the three volumes or the standards and then an open house that has three stations, one for each volume where there can be maybe more in-depth questions or discussions with the consultants about those. And so, you
know, that's, you know, uh the idea would be we're hoping to film that and then put that uh the recording at least of the presentation online. The standards are available. There's a project web page on on online. Uh and thanks Pam and Walker for doing that. So, you know, it's a really nice web
page. There's a lot of information. There's a public comment form. So, we're asking the public, you know, board and committee members alike to submit uh forms electronically with comments. Um and then you know the idea would be that after the 11th the consultant is going to go to various boards and committees.
So the planning board we're anticipating March 18th the Dodson will come to the planning board and we'll have an hour or an hour and a half with the planning board. Uh and then you know in the month month of March and into April we'll also go to you know a few other boards and committees. Uh and then that process you
know there'll be time for the board to discuss the standards with staff and we can relay any comments to the consultant. But you know there's probably six months or more of public comments and discussion on the standards and then you know the idea would be that by the end of the year it gets brought
to town council for you know for um just for their review. So there is you know a public input process starting. Um I was going to mention March 18th for the planning board. So, you know, that night we'll have the downtown design standards and also uh you know, the CRC's been
working on what was previously the um solar bylaw. It's now the clean energy uh bylaw. So, it's for solar and battery energy to match what the state's doing in terms of new regulations similar to ADU. So anyways, a staff person, Stephanie Chikarella, the sustainability
director, will be here on the 18th after Dodson to share the draft clean energy bylaw. And so that'll be in your packet. It's a pretty, you know, it's a pretty uh dense document. It's it is, you know, mid 20 pages, I don't know, 23 25. The idea is that it would be a new section
of the zoning bylaw to regulate clean energy. Uh and is also trying to align with what the state's doing at their level. And so the planning board right now doesn't see a lot of uh solar installations because of the way they're permitted. In the proposed bylaw, the planning board, you would be the permit
grating authority for for a number of, you know, um size solar installations. And so when it comes your way, you know, this will be the one of the the idea is to try to get to the planning board before it actually becomes an official zoning amendment is referred to town council by the CRC. So
the idea is to have the planning board look at this clean energy bylaw on March 18th and April 8th and have any comments or recommendations that would go back to the CRC in April. The CRC was is sponsoring it this, you know, from the council as a zoning amendment and then
it would come back as a public hearing, but the idea is to try to preempt, you know, kind of a longer public hearing by having the board look at it ahead of time. And so that's what, you know, next meeting will be. So there's a lot to it. If you have any questions, you know, please email me ahead of time, even, you
know, even after the 18th. You can email me questions. Um, and yeah, so there's a lot to it. There was the meeting last night that uh KP Law put on for the conservation commission and zoning board and that will be available online. I'll send you a link when it's available
about, you know, clean energy and solar sighting. And again, there's all, you know, there's things happening at the state level that we then have to comply with at the local level. Uh, and so we're, you know, we're in the process of doing that. But >> Nate, is is that bylaw ready for to
share with us? >> Because because if if it's as beefy as you say it is, >> um, you know, and they really want us to get all the way through it by April 8th. Um, I' I'd say send it to us as soon as
you can, right? You know, right tomorrow. >> Yeah. the uh the um it's almost ready. So, the CRC's been meeting on it and there's just some clarification questions that staff answered today. So, I think that's going to get incorporated and there might be a kind of it's still
a draft form, but have that be finalized by the end of the week. So, I can share that out. I think that for the 18th, it's really just a kind of anformational overview. We can dive into it as much as you'd like. Um, and maybe we can't get all the way through it, but just to give the planning board a sense for what it is. So when it comes back at a public
hearing, you know, you'll have heard about it. So it's not like we're starting from from the beginning. You'll you know, you'll be familiar with it enough to, you know, maybe be more comfortable asking questions or making suggestions or changes. >> Okay.
Any other report of staff? Oh, Jesse, I see your hand. >> Thanks. Uh probably this is a question for the 18th and maybe we can you can answer it then because I haven't seen the document at all on the solar piece. I'd be I hope
there'll be some instruction or you know some boundaries about what planning board is supposed to get into when we're approving zoning uh solar projects like what level of technical detail are we going to deal
with because certainly I don't feel equipped to do that. So, are there going to be some guidelines if this is going to become a planning board thing and are we going to end up spending 3 hours talking about the I couldn't even imagine what technical pieces around
solar installations and I I would hope not but anyway we can discuss after we look at the document. >> Yeah. So, um that's a good point. I I I agree. So I think that it's a you know it's a going to be there'll be site plan review uses and in the bylaw proposed bylaw there's you know kind of setback
requirements there's screening there's certain things and so we're asking the applicant to do a lot of work upfront to what they're doing and so in my mind if they're meeting a lot of the criteria in the bylaw and the states you know the CMR you know I'm not sure that the board has
to get into all those details about some of those things. So, it's a good question. Um, Jesse, if you could ask on the 18, I make a note. I think it's that is a really important question. So, um, yeah, to me, if we say it's a site plan review use, we I don't, right, I
don't want to be spending, you know, three meetings and, you know, 12 hours over three meetings looking at things that maybe the board's, you know, outside of our purview or expertise. And so, it's a good point. I mean, I would hate to say
every site review hearing now is going to have a peer review to determine something about the solar piece. And so, uh, >> it'd be nice if it could come to us with, yes, it's met all these criteria. Here are the here are the pieces you need to consider only, not
>> Thank good point. Let Nate finish making his note. >> Yeah, that's a that's a really good question. >> I mean, there is there is the provision for peer review, right? >> There is. I think what we're trying to
do though is right now, um, you know, the state saying any like any any really big installation. I mean, but I think it's probably like a 100 acre solar field goes right to the state to a state board. So, anything smaller the municipalities can regulate locally. you
can determine each municipality can determine how they do that whether it's special permanent site review is it you know how what are your parameters and criteria and so what we're proposing is a tiered approach based on size and possible impact and so you know what to me what
site plan review are size installations and in certain districts that are you know to me reasonable and if they're more impactful they're special permit so uh you know that's something that can be discussed during the process But the idea would be that what's coming to the
planning board is not going to be, you know, something that is so controversial, but you know, maybe we haven't thought of everything. So, um, you know, the idea would be that something's on that's, you know, could be more impactful is going to be a special permit, uh, review through the zoning board, which they do now anyway.
So, the zoning board hear those those permits. But, yeah, no, it's a good point. I um, yeah, something we can talk about. >> Okay. Anything else from anyone else?
All right, time is 8:49. I guess we are adjourned until March 18th. >> See you then. Thanks, Doug. Thanks. Good night. Good >> night.
>> Good night, Pam.