Okay, Mr. Marshall, you have a quorum of the board. You are the co-host of this meeting. Nate Mallaloy is with us in the house tonight. U my clock says it's 6:35. The attendees are coming in. I think
we're good to go. Okay, Pam. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Welcome to the Emmeris Planning Board meeting of December 17, 2025. My name is Doug Marshall and as chair of the Amoris Planning Board, I'm calling
this meeting to order at 6:35 p.m. This meeting is being recorded and is available livereamed via Ammeris Media. Minutes are being taken pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021, extended
by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 and further extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2025. This planning board meeting will be conducted via remote means using the Zoom platform. The Zoom meeting link is available on the meeting
agenda posted on the town website's calendar listing for this meeting or go to the planning board web page and click on a most recent agenda where the Zoom link is listed at the top of the page. No in-person attendance of the public is
permitted. However, every effort will be made to ensure the public can access the meeting in real time via technological means. In the event public access is disrupted for reasons of economic hardship or despite our best efforts, we
will post an audio or video recording, transcript, or other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting on the town's website. Board members, I will do a roll call. When I call your name, unmute yourself,
answer affirmatively, and return to mute. Bruce Colum, >> I am here. >> Thank you, Bruce. Fred Hartwell. >> Hartwell is here. >> Thank you. Uh Jesse Major has told us that he is not uh going to be attending
this evening. I Doug Marshall am present. Angus Mloud >> present. Thank you. Uh Johanna Newman has also told us that she will be absent. And finally, Jerus has told us that he will be arriving uh probably within the next
half hour. So, we have four board members present. That is a quorum of the board. Board members, if technical issues arise and the discussion needs to pause, it will be noted in the minutes. Please use the raise hand function to ask a
question or make a comment. and I will call on you to speak. After speaking, remember to remmute yourself to the general public. The general public comment item is reserved for public com comment regarding items not appearing
later on tonight's agenda. Please be aware the board will not respond to comments during general public comment period. Public comments may also be heard at other times during the meeting when deemed appropriate by the planning board chair. Please indicate you wish to
make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited. If you have joined the Zoom meeting using a telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star9 on your phone. When called on, please identify yourself by
stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents can typically express their views for up to three minutes or at the discretion of the planning board chair. If a speaker does not comply with these guidelines or
exceeds their allotted time, their participation may be disconnected from the meeting. Okay, time is 6:39 and we'll go right into meeting minutes. We have the minutes from December 3rd of this year
as drafted by our hardworking staff. Um, does anybody have any comments on these minutes as drafted? Any edits to be made? Any typos to be found? No, they were perfect. All right. Does anyone
have a want to uh make a motion to approve our minutes? Don't all speak at once. I'll I'll make the motion then. Uh Bruce, >> I will second. >> All right. Thank you. The motion uh is
on the floor. a motion to approve the minutes for December 3rd as drafted. Are there any further comments? Any comments at all about these minutes? All right. Um, we will go into a vote. Starting with you, Bruce.
>> I. >> And Fred. >> I. >> And Angus. >> I. >> And I'm an I as well. That's four in favor. and three members absent. The motion carries with a majority of those
members present. All right. Next, we will go to our public comment period. This is a general period uh when it, as I said, it's for comments about items not appearing later on the
agenda. So, if you have a comment about our one of our of our hearings, um, this is not the time for those comments. So, uh, members of the public, now's the time to raise your hand if you'd like to make some comments about some other
subject other than what we've said we were going to talk about tonight. I usually write uh, read the names of the people I can see from the public. At this time, I will do that now. I see Jason Bajan, I'm probably butchering that name. Ken
Rosenthal, Chris Baker, Mindy Sonner, Sarah Bar, and Tom Rei. All right. Uh, I do see a hand from Ken Rosenthal. We could bring him over and he can remind us of his street address.
>> Thank you, Mr. Marshall. Ken Rosenthal, 53 Sunset Avenue. I want to thank you again for reading the names of us public members, we public members who are attending. There ought to be a better way to do this, but you figured out the
the uh way that at least works for the planning board. No other board does this. I say again, and I'm doing this in public comment so it's part of the record so that perhaps it gets the attention of the town manager and perhaps the president of the town
council that there ought to be a way uh to to let everybody who's attending see who else is attending. This is what used to happen when we were in person, but it doesn't and it can happen on Zoom. It happens for many meetings that I attend.
Uh Mr. Chairman, you are the only chair that ever reads the names of all the attendees. Sometimes you have to read dozens of them. And I just want to thank you and also ask other town committees to follow what you do. Thank you again. I will lower my hand.
>> Okay. Thank you, Ken. Appreciate the sentiment. Uh I don't see any other hands. Um, I will pause a moment more and then we'll move on.
Anyone else want to make a public comment? Okay, I guess uh we'll move on. The time is 6:43 and we'll go on to the next item. All right, this is a public hearing.
um preliminary subdivision plan. It was advertised for a start of 64 6:35. So we have passed that point. So we can start. As I said, the time is 6:43.
And here's the preamble. In accordance with the provisions of Mass General Law Chapter 48, this public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and is being held for the purpose of providing the opportunity for interested
citizens to be heard regarding SUB 2026-01. Applicant is WD Kohl's Incorporated properties located on Shootsbury Road. This this hearing is continued from
December 3rd. Request approval for a four lot sub preliminary subdivision plan under Mass General Law chapter 41 sections 81L and 81S. parcel is uh consists of or it's on maps
9B11, 9B12, 9D26, and 9D27 located in the RO zoning district. First of all, are there any board members who should make a disclosure
about this topic? I don't see any hands, so we'll move on. Uh, welcome Tom Rei. I assume you are here to provide the presentation from the applicant. >> I am. >> All right. And so I guess without
further ado, we'll go ahead. >> Perfect. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, members of the board. For the record, Tom Rei, attorney with Bacon Wilson and Ammerst here on behalf of WD Kohl's in his application. Uh once again, my apologies, Bruce, I know it's not your
favorite. For a preliminary subdivision plan for Flat Hills Estates, uh off of Shootsbury Road. Uh the proposal is for four lots uh to be created off a newly created subdivision roadway. Um this is,
I think, maybe the fourth third time. Uh one of those two. Third. Thank you, Bruce. Hopefully there's not a fourth. Uh and the the purpose of this is to freeze the zoning. And so this is land that has been subject to
uh diligence uh conservation commission hearings, zoning board of appeals hearings for a solar project. And ultimately, um, we have been filing these preliminary subdivision plans to
prevent application of the new solar zoning bylaw once it goes into effect. Our obligation is to follow up within 7 months after the filing of the preliminary with a definitive plan. But because the solar zoning bylaw has not
yet passed, we're afforded the ability to refile the preliminary plan. My sense is, and we can always ask Mr. Mallaloy, but my sense is this is probably the last time we're able to file the preliminary plan. Um, and your,
you know, I mentioned solar really to just be transparent about what the purpose is, but your, um, direction here is to treat this like a a subdivision. And so, you know, nothing has changed.
I'll show the plan in a moment. Uh, nothing has changed from the two previous times we submitted and received approval of this plan. It's the same here. Um, and I suspect we'll be back with a definitive with sometime within seven months from the filing date
because things are starting to move forward with the solar zoning bylaw as well as the solar specific solar project here. So, I will share the plan just for uh completeness. >> Tom,
>> yes. Um, can I just interrupt a moment to just say that Jara Smith joined us uh just about at 6:45 two minutes ago. >> So we now have five members present. >> Perfect. Thank you. >> Go ahead. >> Thank you. Uh so what we've got on the
left side of the screen, Shootsbury Road, we've got the parcel in total outlined in black. As you'll see, it goes a little bit off screen. I've just zoomed in a little bit. You've got a conforming subdivision
roadway with a culde-sac. You've got just a general location of the proposed storm water basin on the southwesterly portion of the site. And then you've got four building lots. Lot one 24.4 acres,
lot 2 30.2 acres, lot 37.1 acres, and lot four 36.8 acres. Um, and so which would all be compliant with uh uh zoning based upon frontage in in lot area in
this zoning district. And so really just simply like I said, this is preliminary plan to free zoning, but we're still going through the preliminary subdivision plan process. If you'd like, I can answer questions on the specific plan or I can take it down and we can uh have more discussions.
Um Tom, why don't we allow some questions about the specific plan? Um although you haven't changed your plan, we do have a couple of new board members for whom this is the the first subdivision plan that we've talked about.
So board members, are there any questions about what we're actually doing here? We're supposed to be sort of ignoring the the likelihood that this would that this subdivision will never be built because this uh plan is here
almost solely for freezing the zoning, but we're supposed to treat it like we're actually approving a subdivision plan that could be built. So, u I don't know whether there's anything in particular that you guys want to talk
about, but uh let's entertain questions if there are any. >> Angus, >> thank you. So yeah, so I I'm trying to get a sense of this project and um so I mean one it might be helpful to just
hear a little bit more about the the intended solar project, but um I understand that that's not necessarily Germaine. Um but I guess the question that I have is about the request for a sewage exemption. Um and if you could talk a little bit more about about that
request and the rationale for that request. >> Um sure. So first you know unfortunately we I mean we can talk about the solar but it really isn't gerine to this because it's
you know my personal practice is that if I'm submitting a preliminary subdivision plan but the intent is really to freeze zoning. I'm transparent about that intent. Um there is no obligation for us to be transparent. There is no obligation for us to say we're going to
freeze it. You know, we could come in and just say, "Here's a preliminary subdivision plan." And then follow up with a definitive and then subsequently, you know, next day file u after a zoning bylaw or ordinance has changed, we could file a site plan review or special permit for a use that would otherwise no
longer be allowed. So, I give that background just because obviously I'm in front of this board often. I respect the board and then just as a matter of maybe honesty and reputation, I um proceed that way. So, you know, unfortunately, there will be an opportunity, I'll say,
once a plan is formally submitted. It's a zoning board of appeals special permit for the solar. We will submit that in the coming months. I can't give you any more definitive answer because I don't have it. We are currently, and here I said I wasn't going to talk about solar.
We are this evening still going through the conservation commission process for an order of resource area delineation which I suspect will be continued to January because of some shakeup with that commission and so I'd suspect sometime in let's say February March there's a formal
application that obviously is transmitted to this board and so at that time if this board wanted to talk about the substance of the solar we'd be happy to come in and to talk about it. So, just to address that, um,
as for the sewer exemption, so the way that the Ammer subdivision rules and regulations work is that you cannot have um, well and septic both in the same subdivision.
And so the request here is for a waiver of that where we could have well aneptic and and the justification here would be because the lots are so large that we think that
we could do it safely. Um if at the definitive stage uh the board denied that waiver for whatever reason, then there would just be a condition that if the subdivision were to be built, that water were to be
brought up. And I mean, frankly, in a hypothetical situation, there could be an agreement to do that. Um because again, as Mr. Marshall mentioned, the intent is not to build this. Um, if there was ever going to be a subdivision
here, there would be more density than what you're seeing, but that's another conversation for another day. So, as far as the request for that waiver, the justification is the size of the lots and allowing waiver from the the dual existence of well and of the or the
waiver from the prohibition on the dual existence of well and septic. Angus, is that would answer your question? >> Yeah, I mean I part of the question about the solar I guess is because of the sewer exemption. Um because if if
these if the plan is not to actually build a a subdivision here, then I' I'd be much more in favor of any kind of a sewage or water exemption. So, um but but I I hear what you're saying and that makes sense.
>> Okay. All right. Um, anyone else? Any other anybody? Okay. Um, I will ask the members of the public. Uh, is there anybody from the public who would like to make a comment
on this application? All right, I am not seeing anybody in the public raising their hands. Uh, one last chance for board members. Any any comment?
I guess not. Oh, Bruce. Well, the reason why there's so little comment certainly for me is that the only thing changed here is that Tom's sporting a beard, which I guess is
progress, but uh um so we uh would uh I guess ordinarily go through findings and so forth, which we've already done twice and nothing has changed. Um, can we uh move a motion to
um I guess uh Doug Nate um are we should we properly go through findings and conditions here? Um >> yeah, it seemed like we ought to at least glance in that direction before we
vote. Nate, >> yeah, I'll share my screen. It's really I had sent that document today the letter we would send saying that you know excuse me the board you know proves the waiver request. So one is the scale of the plan you know it's not one to 40
and then this water and sewer supply uh and then previously the condition was that they consult with fire and board of health before defi uh filing a definitive plan. So I mean there's really as a preliminary plan you know
there's a kind of really no recourse if we don't take action. The idea is that we would want to provide some guidance to the applicant. I think there's you know those are you know that's what was said before. Um you know they have to complete a definitive within seven months to get the zoning freeze. there's
an ability to submit another preliminary or a different preliminary, you know, up in, you know, until there's a, you know, a certain specific time frame and zoning changes, but Tom said there probably won't be a likely one, uh, you know, different plans. You have to go through all the engineering. So, there's really no findings to be made right now. You
know, the in the in the subdivision regulations, it says that, you know, the plan was shown in black and white. There is a a version that has different lines of color to denote, you know, different things in terms of the street layout. So, it meets all that. There really isn't, you know, anything at this
time to go into detail in terms of like drainage or things. That's all in the definitive. So, it could be as simple as, you know, those two waiverss and that condition. And I'll um get my screen shared. So this is the one from May, you know,
with the record, you know, a recording of the vote and then these waiverss and the one condition. So if there's other things you want to add in terms of conditions, you could. These are the just the two waiverss that are part of this. Bruce,
>> um I would move uh um approval of the subdivision application uh conditioned with the including the two waiverss uh um I won't read them but they're there and with the single condition
uh related to the consultations with the fire departments and board of health as uh articulated in the May letter and uh to close the public hearing. And I think that's it.
>> All right. Thank you, Bruce. >> Second. >> Thank you, Angus. Any discussion? One last chance for board or for public comment. Not seeing any. All right, we'll go ahead and vote. Uh again starting with
you Bruce >> I >> and Fred >> hi >> Angus >> hi I >> uh Jara >> I >> and I'm an I as well that's five in
favor two members absent motion passes >> thank you very much >> thank you Tom >> of course >> thanks for stopping by >> of course I'm I'm here for old business too so Pam I don't know if You want to pick me out and
>> I'll sit around until it's my turn. >> I'm going to try, but if we lose you, please come on back. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Be careful what you wish for. >> I know. Move homes.
>> All right. Um, moving on. Item four on the agenda. Another public hearing. This one was advertised for 6:45. It's now 6:59, so we're fine timewise. In accordance with the provisions of
Mass General Law, chapter 48, this public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and is being held for the purpose of providing the opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding site plan review 2026-02.
Applicant is Ammerst College. Address is 40 Dickinson Street. This hearing is continued from December 3rd of of this year. Request site plan review approval under section 3.339 of the zoning bylaw to modify previously approved site plan
review 2014-00006 and add a vehicle washing area with storm water and sewer connection. Construct a 20 by 30 foot salt shed with six foot high block walls and a 9- foot
high metal arch roof and repaving, uh, in the BL limited business zoning district on map 14B, parcel 52, board member disclosure. Um, Amoris College is my employer and so I'd like to um not participate in the
voting and be moved down to a panelist. >> All right. You Angus will recuse himself. So we will have four remaining members uh a me a majority of the board and also we believe that we are fine
with uh if we decide to vote on this site plan um we will need a simple majority of the members present. All right uh looks like uh Jason is back. >> Yep. How's everybody doing tonight?
>> Welcome back. Uh I guess you're here with hopefully some improved plans. >> Yes. I also have Chris Baker who uh he's on right now. If we can add him to the panelist, that would be great. >> I thought I did. I'm so sorry. Chris, >> I I did that. Pam.
>> Thanks, Nate. >> Are you undoing him while I'm trying to do him? Nate, >> no. I just promoted him when he raised his hand. >> Okay, there he goes. Great. >> Welcome, Chris. >> Thank you. Um all right. So um we did submit some
materials um a revised site plan with some updated landscaping. Um we you know tried to address everything that the board um discussed during our last meeting. So I will actually share my screen. Um
go. Um so here is our revised um site plan. And you can see we've actually decided instead of just doing planters to go ahead and remove this area of asphalt
that's adjacent to the front of the building. um just to create more definition between the sidewalk and also to rellandscape an area um and get rid of some of the impervious surfaces. Um the other thing that we did were was
add uh landscaping um around the salt shed and you can see here we tried to you know build out a screen with a variety of different plantings. Um here you can see some of the
varieties um some varieties that we chose that we're trying to get some mix of evergreens that would be able to provide that screening. Um and so there's a Japanese maple fur um
cyprress. So we're hoping that you know these will look nice as a screening. And then there's going to be some larger canopy shade trees uh in the front here kind of away from the salt shed that will also provide some, you know,
screening of the building from Route 9 and hopefully screening of the salt shed from from the walkway. And I think Jay, you want to jump in and discuss the lighting? >> Yep. Yeah. So I I will also share my
screen. So one thing we took a look at was the lighting that's on the building and um the original lighting to what we have now. And I know Bruce, you had made a comment. So we went back with our electricians. So we are going to be
replacing the lighting that are over the overhead doors with these new fixtures. These have what are called full um full cut off shields. So these would make these light fixtures dark sky compliant as requested and those would be the new
fixtures that we would put along the um loading dock doors. So what this full shielding means is um if you were to have a horizontal line there, these shields prevent any uplighting to prevent the light pollution and that glare you would get. So this is the
lightings that we will be ordering to replace on the over the loading docks. Another thing uh that was requested from the board was u our investigation on location of the shed. So this is just a a survey plan that we had looked at when
starting to investigate locating our salt shed using the different setbacks. So here were the two proposed locations. So just to orientate yourself, here's Dickinson Street. Uh you have your parking lot and college street that runs down below here. So around the back of
the building was one of the first locations we had looked at. Unfortunately, when looking at the parcel and where our property line ends and the setbacks we would have to meet, um the first location tucked back here,
there's the oil tank pad that's existing to the building. What that ended up doing was blocking the access for any emergency vehicles to be able to get around the building as well as any of our facility build um vehicles to get around. So we also looked at another
orientation around the other side of the building. But then that also had a similar problem where u for an emergency vehicle needing you know a 10-ft roadway uh we we had a pinch point at this corner of the building. So when looking at um the rest of the locations, that's
how we determine being able to put something towards the front of the building to meet our setbacks and keep a flow of traffic for emergency vehicles and our vehicles around the entire property. So that's this has been submitted to the planning board now.
So those are kind of the two things on our end for the lighting and then the location. And then um with the plantings, I really do feel, you know, I think this was a great idea um especially with some of the oaks that would when fully grown uh and also during the fall time to pull in some of
that fall foliage around this building. I think that's going to be nice to shade the building uh but then kind of prevent provide that natural uh New England vernacular of kind of the colors from from the roadway. I open up to any questions that the
board may have at this time just from our updates that we put together or any questions you may have. >> All right. Thank you, Jason and Chris. Uh, I guess I'll start off. I don't see any hands up yet. Um, Chris, on the planted area that you've added between
the sidewalk and the building, is there still a strip of pavement, let's say, right next to the building? >> I can't The way I I >> Yeah, I think there I think there would be possibly just to
>> Why don't you bring your plan back up? Let's see. Yeah, I think we're going to have to go out and look at it or what's going on with the foundation and kind of where that meets. >> Well, I mean, yeah. So, so that drawing looks like it shows a little bit of
pavement along the edge of the building. Is that right? >> Yeah. And I think that would be the idea, even if it was just like a kind of a drip strip. >> Yeah, that's fine. Okay. I just wanted to be clear about that. Uh what does the word snow at the top of
that planted area mean? >> That is um just the survey was taken during last winter. So there was snow on the ground. >> Oh, I see. >> So that's that's part of the base survey. >> Okay. All right. And then so the western edge
of this new planted area is right along the property line. >> Um it is. Yes. It's It's basically right on the sidewalk. >> So, you're saw cutting a portion of the sidewalk. >> Uh right along like we would basically
saw cut at the edge of the sidewalk. So, we would >> So, you're not you're not Well, I mean, right now there's no indication of where the sidewalk ends and your property starts. Um, so the Batuminous Walk that's listed and this line that goes essentially
along where we're proposing to pave and then up where the Lomen seed would be, that is the edge of the sidewalk. >> Okay. All right. Um, Jason, a question for you. The the fixtures that you propose,
you would replace the ones over near the loading the the overhead doors. Will you also replace the one over the entry? >> Uh, the entry is a dark sky compliant fixture. So, there wasn't a plan to
replace it. It It meets the compliance. >> Okay. So, there'd be two different types of fixtures on the building. >> Yeah. So, one would be a wall pack. So, the one that I previously had is a a wall pack type, and the one that's over the door is a little bit more decorative
because it it kind of comes off the building. So >> it it is kind of distinguish between a wall pack and an entry light. >> And the new the existing one I remember it was white. >> Would the would the new wall packs match it in color?
>> We will make everything match. I believe I think the one that's currently there is black. The housing is black. But regardless, we would make sure >> I mean matching the one over the color of the one over the entry. >> Yes, we'll make sure that the colors match.
All right, Bruce. >> Um, I think the uh the planting plan that you're proposing around the shed is pretty wholesome and uh you know various types of planting bigs and smalls,
coniferous and deciduous and uh that seems uh so it should satisfy satisfies me. Seems pretty pretty handsome. Um, but we were, I think, uh,
uh, hoping that there would also be a planting of some sort in that grass area. Is there any reason why you might not put one of those Japanese maples there? Um, as well as putting one or wherever how many over on the other
side. Could uh, is there any reason why we we don't have a a planting there as opposed to just grass? Oh, the the only reason the grounds department looked at that as only grass is when you're looking at the building, there are planters that are on they're
fixed on the windows. So, as you're walking by the building, it basically your perspective would be grass on the on the lawn and then planters that are on the windows. So, they kind of just one of the planters takes cares of the planters there. So, they didn't want to
put a plant a tree to block that view. Uh, I would advocate for a single Japanese maple in that location as well. It seems that they're small, manageable tree and would seem to be in scale with the sidewalk. So, I'll see what my colleagues have to say, but other than
that, uh, it all seems as though you heard what we said last time and have dealt with it. So, that aside, I think I'm a happy camper. >> Mhm. All right. Anybody else from the board?
I do see one public hand. All right. Um I guess I'll go ahead and call on the the public hand that's been raised. Uh Pam, if we could bring over Mindy Sonner. >> Hello. >> Hello. Welcome.
>> Thank you. You're Mindy Sonner and your street address is >> 20 Dickinson Street. >> Thank you. >> Um I I want to say that this is a big improvement. I'm I'm pleased to see it. I think the landscape plan
um is much much better. I agree with Bruce that a little plot of grass in front of the building, I don't think it's going to quite do it. Um the window planters are nothing in the winter and
not much in the summer months either. So um the two Japanese maples that are currently planted, one of them is not going to make it. I don't know if a Japanese maple would survive there, but um but I do think it
needs uh something tall there. Um, as far as the landscape plan around the salt shed, um, I I I think it's lovely the mix of plants. The the large trees are not named. At least I couldn't
see that they were named. And it was just mentioned that they were oaks that would get fall color. And of course, oaks don't get fall color. So, um, something that would get fall color would be nice. My concern about that
planting is I I really don't think it's going to provide much shielding from Dickinson Street. And it's it's hard to see because the whole plan the plan that's being shown doesn't show the
entire lot. It just shows where the salt shed is going to go in the current building. But if you were to see the entire lot, you would see that it is become over the years a huge parking lot that's heavily used. And when you're
walking along the asphalt sidewalk, there is not a delineation between the asphalt sidewalk and the asphalt parking lot. It's a long stretch that feels like you're walking through a parking lot.
There's no shade trees, so it's just hot in the summer. And it's really unsightly. It's become much more unsightly over the years. And so, you know, I realize it's not part of this salt shed
project, and maybe it's not appropriate to bring it up, but the whole site has become not nice. Um the maybe it seems trivial but the purple garage doors on the
building I mean the site is not within Ammeris College and they just seem really inappropriate for the neighborhood. And so overall I would say from Dickinson Street the new plan is is not
addressing anything that's just become ugly over the years. All right. Thank you, Mindy. >> Thank you. >> Um, board members, we've heard from Bruce. Uh, we've heard
from Mindy. How are you feeling about the plan as proposed here? It looks like we've kind of lost Jara. So, looks like >> No, there he is. >> Not here. >> Yeah. So Jarro, we do need you to
participate. So because we've got to maintain our quorum if that's >> Oh, I've been listening. Yeah, I've been listening in. Yeah. >> Okay. Um, so, uh, Jason, uh, I guess I I guess I'll
ask you, you know, we've had two comments about the need to soften the view a little bit more from Dickinson Street. Um, how do you feel about a little bit more planting there along along the street at
least in that what area? What the area that's now grass? Um, and then, you know, Mindy's made the comment about the purple doors again. Um, how uh, you know, how strongly do you guys feel you
really need those doors to be purple and how how, you know, how much Ammerst College is really needed there? >> Yeah, I think I Well, I'll start with Mindy's comment. I think um, I definitely hear the comments on the
building and the site as its whole. Um I think for this project if if it was more towards a renovation of the building it would be definitely something we can really look into. For this project it's primarily just on the salt shed and you know some of the pavement work. So um
the comments I would like to address are just related to the salt shed and the pavement work at this time. So, I think the landscaping side of things, um, I could definitely go back to the grounds department and at that entrance look to
see what we could do to satisfy the comments Mindy has and, uh, Bruce has for plantings at the front of the building. It definitely could be something where we can add in, you know, potent potentially a tree. Um, I do know we want to keep that area
from where it was repaved by DPW and we're putting grass back in. So, I don't know if it's going to affect anything on that end for the DPW, but for us, what we can do is be sure to look at it and potentially add some more plantings, uh,
if that satisfies the board. >> Well, um, I believe more planting would require a new site plan. And so, do should we just continue this and let you go back and talk about it
and bring it back again? I I see. >> Go ahead. >> I think what I would like to ask is if that could be since it would just be that one area if we could get a conditional approval for our plan uh as it stands and that could just be something as we select maybe something
we could submit to the board um after the fact because since it would just be that one area. >> Nate, is that uh procedurally feasible? >> Yeah, we've done that in the past. I, you know, I would usually try to minimize conditions like that, but a lot
of decisions have them. So, I think given that, um, you know, it would just be this one area, it's something we could document and bring back to a public meeting, uh, after the fact. So, >> and we could put a time limit on that that they need to come back within
>> Yep. >> you know, six months or a year or something. I mean, you could, yeah, you could even just say, you know, before any permit, so there there needs to be a building permit for the um shed. >> You could you could even just say in two months that they return to the board and
provide an updated landscaping plan at a public meeting. Doesn't have to be tied to anything. It could just be a time frame. >> Well, that would be, you know, it seems like the a little bit more planting and and maybe eliminate the purple And uh
that we'll all call that a win. Um Bruce, I see your hand. >> I was going to make a motion to that that effect actually because I did think that we could uh uh we didn't I didn't want to put any anyone us or the
applicant through a continuation here. It seems unnecessary. >> So I think uh um now we went through the condition the findings last time. I think uh I can't remember. Do we have already some conditions, Nate, that uh
we've established. Uh I think we >> I think we could walk through them again. There was a few that still needed to be updated. Um you know, there weren't only a few. >> Before we do that, I see that uh Pam, do you think that Mindy's got her hand up again? >> I do.
>> All right. So, before we get to that, >> I'll put mine down. >> Okay. I guess let's let's bring Mindy back. >> Okay. >> Again, um I just have two things I want to say.
One is um there's been no further discussion about um protecting the wetland across the street, which is home to a lot of animals and birds and frogs. Um, and I just want to make sure that
it's being attended to and that you're feeling satisfied that that is being provided for and that is not going to get polluted. And my second comment is that uh I still don't see that the salt
shed um is shielded from view on the Dickinson Street side. Um, and I do find it disappointing that we've just come down to a little patch in front of the current building
that might get some little planting, but that whole area between the sidewalk and the parking lot will remain the way it is. I really think Ammerst College has the ability to do much better for the town of Ammerst than that. Thank you.
>> All right. Okay, board members, we've heard those comments and um I guess I'm going to be looking for whether anybody's feeling com uh like we should push a little harder on the applicant. Bruce,
>> you could bring the plan back up again, but it seems to me that the uh the the the salt shed is screened from Dickinson Street. I I don't quite understand Mindy's concern. I mean, of course, it's not surrounded by trees, but there's a whole parking area and entry and so
forth that doesn't really lend itself to having trees, and I'm prepared to uh imagine to accept that we we we can't surround the building with trees, but as I recall from looking at that uh um uh
site plan that we were shown, there seems to be screening on on uh so until you get until you get to that point there where the hand is or maybe down a bit. Um the this this this
the from there on you can see the shed >> or maybe but from from uh from route 9 uh to that point the screening would seem to be fairly effective. Um I don't see how we can do how the applicant can
do more screening uh without uh putting trees in the petitionous concrete parking area. So I don't understand uh I mean I think that we're um that we've seen a satisfactory response to our concern with screening. So I'm not sharing concerns from uh so far as
that's concerned. I do think that we can do better on that uh uh north side as I've said and and uh that'll be the that'll be the the the one condition that one of the two conditions I'd add. But if Nate, if
you've got those and you've got them in editable form, we could uh we could create them um or you could create them with us. >> Yeah. I wanted to ask um Jason, you know, Mindy mentioned that you've got oaks there along the south side um and
but you did talk about the fall color. Is there some is are oaks more appropriate for that location rather than maples? Maybe that's a question for Chris. I don't know. Um, I know that that the trees were um chosen to be successful in in full sun
environment, but I I don't know the answer to that. I can we can look at swapping them out with the maples, >> right? >> Yeah. I mean, it's a the type of oak tree does have a fall color. Um, and it's, you know, probably hardy in terms
of why it was chosen, you know, both for full sun and, you know, other, you know, urban environment. So, it's a, it's a nuttail oak. So, it's not, you know, like a pin oak or a a white oak. It's a different kind of oak that I think would would, you know, would be successful
there. So, I don't And it does have, you know, a fall color. If you if you look it up online, it has like a anywhere from like a red to like an umber, burnt umber, maybe slightly orange. So, um, you know, it's not say as vibrant as a sugar maple, but a sugar maple, you know, they're just not even recommended
much anymore, unfortunately, in this area. >> All right. Thanks, Nate. All right. Um, Nate, why don't you have uh your findings or conditions? >> Yeah, we can start with the conditions and the findings we can go up above. So
we had you know the we had gone through these what's highlighted is what would be changed the revision dates of the plans we'd add the landscape plan um you know we have our generic kind of standard uh conditions substantial changes would come back
the plan expires in two years we looked at all these but we you know the ones highlighted in gray were ones that we I think we'd want to reassess this evening we say no more than 11 vehicles parked on the property as shown on the site plan. You know, if that's an issue, Jay,
you know, as far as I can tell, that's what was there. You know, what that's kind of the number. Um, >> yep. No issues there. >> Um, we say there should be no vehicle parked in front of the building, but you know, now that that's becoming grass, I don't know if this conditions, you know,
if it's necessary. So, originally, you know, that paved area in front of the office, the concern was that some, you know, a vehicle could pull up there. I don't know if we still want to have something like this. Um, >> well, we still don't want any vehicles there. >> True. >> Yeah. The the the reason why we uh we
actually opted to coordinate with the grounds department is to avoid the potential of a vehicle parking there even in a short term. So that's why we went with just uh removing the asphalt and putting grass. >> Sure. And then you know eight, there should be pavement markings delaying the
public sidewalk. So, you know, I'm not sure if what the plan is if you still would have a strike because there is a, you know, a wide swath where there's pavement. Um, so I don't, you know, if there's anything to do be done there with condition eight or remove it.
>> Jason, do you have any objection to running a, you know, a stripe along the edge of the sidewalks? >> Uh, can I just share my plan real? I just want to make sure I under I'm >> sure completely.
>> Yeah, I mean I can I can even um if you're sharing >> Yeah. Nate, are you thinking just running something right down this the sidewalk like this for a white stripe? >> I think that's that's what was envisioned, I think.
>> Yeah. And and we're going to be striping the parking lot, so I don't have a any problem with it. I just want to make sure um I understand. >> Yeah. No, just something like that. I mean, I think it's when you're walking, it's pretty clear that there's, you know, you'll see the pavement cut and it's a sidewalk. I just want to, you know, say whether it's for vehicles
parking or for someone they just >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think it'd be useful to delineate where the edge of the sidewalk is and where your vehicle parking lot starts. >> Yeah. I don't think that's a problem at all.
>> And you know, you could break it where at the curb cut so that >> Exactly. So it just showed that separation. Yep. >> Yeah, >> that's good. >> All right, Nate. >> If we think that if we think condition 8 describes that clearly, you know, we can leave that in.
>> I think that's fine. >> Um, we can mention the um revised I just put this up here. um the light specifications and then you know this condition right here we can just
>> yeah light fixture specification >> I'm sorry Bruce >> uh light fixture specification so >> yeah I I I' I'd you know actually get it a little more detailed than this this is a >> oh okay okay >> this is you know for a placeholder I
mean it would be something like this you know light fixture sheet whatever it is I just don't um >> understood thank you >> but I'm not sure for this condition do we need to you know have anything more other than we can just if we remove this >> yep >> that
>> sufficient um you know we have the hours of operate hours of exterior lighting you know at one point we had talked about is it what really are the hours Jay so I just want to make sure we have that correctly noted here >> so it's 8 8:00 p.m. to 6 a.m.
>> And then during the winter time, they just they start the lighting earlier around 6:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. So that's that's summer. >> So this Yep. So this is the summer and then winter >> parenthesis summer and then you can do
the may as well do the winter if we're going to have it in. >> And what would the or the other hours? Sorry. >> 6 6 PM to 6 a.m. >> Okay. >> Winter. Y. >> Yeah. All right. Um, in terms of like, you know, the
monitoring of the wetland, uh, you know, we have this condition that worked with the conservation agent on, we discussed it last time. So, you know, once per month over a 12-month period during a rain event, taking, you know, having it can just be Ammeris College staff taking pictures where the outfall is to make
sure there's no, you know, any chemicals from the wash basin. Um, you know, it's just it's a it's, you know, the there's really no outfall across the street. It gets funneled and goes down actually south of Route 9.
The oil water separator, I'm not sure this if we still want to have this move forward. You know there there were updated plans when the oil water separator looked like it was a new one was installed in 20145 and the town engineer is satisfied it meets the standards. So I think this condition
could be removed. >> Okay. >> Okay. Fine with me. >> The regulations haven't changed since 2014. >> You know I'm I'm relying on the town engineer >> saying that you know he was satisfied.
>> Okay. Uh we still have that the drain covers would be tested with staff to make sure they work. I think the you know the ones here um we have Shelby screen from view from Dick Ninson Street. We had you know I had this was proposed now we have a planting
plan again. >> Yeah I think this would go away. >> Yeah the one >> as long as we referencing the planting plan. Yeah, the new one would be um something what's in yellow here. We can
get there. Um the new pavement again that doesn't interfere with the sidewalk, so we can remove this as well. Uh you know, this 16 and 17 are new. So, you know, shall maintain the existing sidewalk and proposed changes including parking lot paving and new lawn in front
of the office portion of the building. So, some of this work may be within the right of way. And so, you know, this is just saying that the applicant would coordinate with the town engineer and public works to do that. >> Is it common for a private entity to maintain a sidewalk if it if it's on
their property? you're saying? >> No, I think the based on the plans, it looks like the some of the pavement that they're working on, you know, it's really close to the edge of the right of way and so, you know, it's existing and it's just changing it. So, the idea is
that they could coordinate that with the with the public works department. Well, I guess I'm just sort of I'm I'm stuck on You're saying the applicant shall maintain the existing sidewalk. Is that common for a private applicant
to have to maintain a public sidewalk that's not on their property? >> Oh, sure. You know what? That's a that's the uh probably not a good I I didn't mean maintain it as in maintenance. I meant um not disrupt or disturb the existing during construction so that they would >> Okay. So that's we need to change it
then. >> Yeah. >> Not disrupt >> shall preserve the existing sidewalk during construction. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean it could just be as simple as that.
>> Yeah. I'm not sure how you work in the rest of it there. >> I don't think we need to. I think it's just as long as we maintain that sidewalk. >> Yeah. >> Or preserve it during construction. >> Okay. >> So, the landscaping, this is usually some similar condition we have. She'll be installed in accordance with the
landscape plan. This is from a previous decision. We can say approved on this evening. Um and then, you know, it shall be maintained uh continually maintained. And if we want to say before the issuance of a certificate of occupancy
that it gets installed. Um I don't know if we want to have a minimum height of shrub plantings at time of planting. They did have >> some you know some things I don't know if that's you know 3 feet is you know I the trees were a pretty big caliper. you know, I'm not sure about the others
if that's, you know, and then condition 18 would be have them come back and present at a public meeting the changes in front of the office. >> Right. Right. So, that was additional planting on the
>> grass. Um, and is that you want to tie it to the certificate of occupancy or building permit or this should just be prior to the issuance of uh >> Well, I think I would use certificate of occupancy,
you know. I mean, nobody's going to plant anything for another four or five months and they may want to pull a permit sooner. >> So, >> yeah, I guess >> could I add something on that that item there? >> Sure. because I do want us all to re
remember it's um it's not a a dwelling unit where somebody will be living. So there's no traditional certificate of occupancy. It's going to be it's a shed that's going to be um storing salt. So there's no fire suppression, there's no power, there's no requirement in that
sense. Um >> but you would be pulling a building permit, wouldn't you? >> We would we would have a permit. Yes. >> So how does that permit get closed if there's no CFO? Uh it's it would still get closed out, but there's the terms would be a little
different than um being able to occupy a building because there's there's no real building to occupy. >> I mean, we could say prior to the like closing out or finalizing. I Yeah, I sure I I don't know if we'd we'd probably call it a certificate of
inspection, not occupancy. Final >> final inspection. Final inspection. Yeah. by the uh by inspectional services or something. >> Isn't that understood? >> Okay, maybe.
And so if we think um let me change the date December. >> Yeah. final inspection of the I guess it should be the building permit granting authority which is to say inspection services I suppose
>> right yeah usually we just say the final inspection >> yeah it's it's of the of the agency not the ent >> not the owner and not the contractor >> uh granting authority is fine. Permit building permit granting authority. I
mean, we know who that is, but that will this works. >> All right. And then 18, we can work on the applicant shall submit for review and approval at a public meeting of the planning board a revised or a final landscape plan.
>> There be a definitive landscapes plan. >> Yeah. >> No. >> No, we're good. Sorry. Within within uh >> you say prior to the final inspection as well or >> didn't you say within two months, wasn't it? >> You know, whatever the board want, I
guess. Whatever. It's really the plan. It's not the planting. So, whatever the board thinks is reasonable. >> I mean, if if if Jason thinks two months are adequate, that would get him. >> It keeps it it keeps it fresh in their mind. >> You wouldn't have completely forgotten this project by then.
>> Yeah, that's fine. Two two months is fine. All right. So, can are we going to say that it needs to or it we'd like it to have some additional planting on the along Dickinson Street?
>> Uh well, I I think uh I mean >> Jason knows what uh is likely to gain approval. >> I think we could have something like that. So Jason, that obligates you to at least
show up with one more plan. >> I think we can review and make something happen there. >> But this would be at a this would be at a public meeting. So it's not a new application or an amendment to the application. It's something like you know what Tom Re is doing later this evening. They come in and say here we
are submitting the new plan. Um >> and will that get filed? >> Yeah. Well, the idea is that we would keep it on file with the town. doesn't, you know, it's not a new application, so it doesn't get, you know, the plans don't get filed with the registry. It would get could get filed with the town
clerk and inspection services and planning department. >> Okay. >> A new 19 would be the softening the door color if we care enough to add it. >> Yeah, that's up to the board. I, you
know, I think paint color is hard. You know, even the local historic district doesn't regulate paint color. I So, >> uh, yeah, we've we've had paint we've had color beaten out of us on the local historic district commission. We're not allowed to do it. Um, so I'm not that's
part of the reason why I asked. Are we even allowed to get involved or can we simply appeal to the applicant to um go back to green? Well, I mean we are uh we are here to
review the impact of the work on the surrounding area. That's what our purpose is. But you know, the purple color is not part of the work. So I think you could argue it both ways.
>> Oh, right. Yes. Uh um Jason or Nate, what would you think if if if we edited the text here to say in addition to a final landscape plan
and that they return with a response to the objections to the existing building colors. >> I would say that's >> at that at that meeting. I mean, and the response could be we don't want to change it, but the response could also
be, yeah, we hear you and we'll repaint it. >> I would say that's something that the applicant and the town can continue to discuss. It's not it's it's not a condition, you know, that's really enforcable and it doesn't do anything.
>> So, all right. you know, I'd rather, you know, if we want the colors change, we'd write it. I think it's getting to be a little unreasonable in terms of what's being proposed. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, the applicants heard from, you know, an abuter. I think the town could work with the, you know, the college. I don't
>> I mean, I don't I'm not sure it's necessary if we want, you know, >> to me that's enforceable, right, and makes, you know, does something if they want to if Jay says it's fine to come back and we put it in there, I would. Otherwise, I don't think it's necessary. Uh, well, they wouldn't need a a change to
the site plan review to come back and change the color of the building, >> right, >> Jara? >> Thank you. Well, I'll take up uh Bruce's offer to make an appeal to the applicant because I think that adding it as a condition may be unreasonable or
unnecessary. But, you know, I do want to point out that a neighbor has spent hours of her life trying to use the biggest megaphone that she can to advocate for changing the color of this garage door. I think that it would be
wonderful if Ammeris College to continue to be a good neighbor and to listen to that complaint and come up with some either softening color or like a mural competition with the art students or something like that. You know, I I I
would uh behoove Ammeris College to listen to that complaint and and figure out a way to proactively address it even if it's not germanine to this particular topic. Um, but I don't think it needs to be a specified condition.
>> All right. Thanks, Jara. >> All right. Do we have our draft pretty well together? Nate, do we need to go through some more of it? >> Uh, you know, we this is a modification of the 14 permit. The idea would be >> um >> we did this changed to the first few
conditions. The general hours of operation are 7 to 3:30 except for snow removal operations. Mechanical equipment and others would be on timers to minimize impact to the neighborhood. Um, you know, what we would be removing,
you know, smoking shall be limited to the south side of the building, deliveries on the south side. we'd be removing the remainder of the permits which had to do with submitting revised plans or different things that to me are now irrelevant. So
>> yep. >> All right. So we're pretty well through this. >> Yeah. And then just for findings, you know, because there have been some changes. I think we had gone through all of these findings. Uh and there, you know, again, this was a 14 permit. um
I think would just be you know there was a few these um um findings. So you know they did show some an alternative to where the salt shed could be located. >> So you know does it avoid it to the extent feasible >> um you know in terms of it architectural
style and existing condition. So, I think um yeah, I'm okay with these. >> I don't know if it really relates to the existing buildings. Do we have to say that?
>> I mean, it is an industrial uh use. You know, the building is was a factory, but you know, if they if we wanted to find some other way to describe that, I think they've done as much screening as they can, you know. They've actually reduced the lot coverage what they're proposing,
>> right? >> We want to work on, you know, this one. We could >> I don't know. I mean, I don't know how I don't know how significant or how worthwhile it would be to change that, but >> I don't find I don't find that those
salt sheds relate to anything, but uh, you know. >> All right. Does anybody anybody have any comments about this? Uh, we've heard from some of the public.
Are there any other members of the public that want to speak? I'm not sure we've got any actual totally disinterested members of the public that are even available to speak except for Mind
Mindy. So, all right. Does anybody want to make a motion, Bruce? Yes, I I'll move uh acceptance or approval of the applicant of the application uh number number
um with uh consistent with the findings expressed 11:24 and with the conditions uh 1 through 20 I think or 21
um as discussed and to close the public hearing. >> Okay. Uh I will go ahead and second that. All right. Um any further discussion?
No. All right. All right. We'll go ahead and vote. I'll go from the end of the last name alphabet this time. Starting with you, Jara. >> I. >> Thank you. Um,
Fred >> I, >> Bruce, >> I. >> And I'm an I as well. That's four in favor, one recusal, two absences.
Thank you, Jason. Thank you, Chris. >> Thank you all for your time. >> We'll see you within a couple months. >> See you then. >> Thank you. All right. Uh time is 7:49 and I'm thinking maybe this would be a
good time to take our five minute break before we resume bring Angus back and continue on our agenda with a general housing discussion. So please come back uh by about five
minutes before 8. Thank you. All right, time is 6 7:56. Please turn on your camera when you come back. Looks like we've got Angus back. We're waiting for Bruce. Everybody else is
back. All right, there's Bruce. So, all right, time is 7:57. We can resume our meeting. We'll go to the fifth item on the agenda, which is general housing discussion. Nate,
>> excuse me. Hey, Doug. I was gonna ask if we could do old business first, knowing that um >> Tom's here. >> Tom's here. Yeah. >> Yeah, sure. That's fine with me. Uh old business. This will be a discussion of
site plan review 2018-11 and special permit 2018-1 for UDrive LLC. See if I can bring up the rest of it here. In accordance with conditions including number three of the site plan
review and special permit decisions for 70 University Drive approved under section 3.325 to construct a mixeduse building with residential units and office associated parking and site improvements. Map 13B, parcel 33 in the
BL zoning district. Welcome back, Tom. >> Thank you. And and thanks for taking me out of order. Uh I was looking forward to the housing discussion. Maybe I'll stick around, but now no compulsion. So I appreciate it. Um for the record, Tom
Rey, attorney with Bacon Wilson out of Ammerst here on behalf of I think both Barry Roberts and Cinda Jones. Um as as you noted, Mr. Chairman, condition number three of the site plan review special permit from 2018 for the site at
70 University Drive, which is a 36 unit mixeduse building along University Drive, uh requires a public meeting and the review of the the management plan and a discussion of compliance with the
conditions from that permit. And so that's what I'm here for. Um, as I mentioned, >> Tom, Tom, just uh can you elaborate our our Barry and Cinda both owners?
>> No. So, great. And I'll share my screen just quickly to show you to just orient everyone with we're talking about. So, it's this it's this parcel right here for orientation. Amity Street's here. Uh, Route 9's further to the south. You can see a
little portion of it here to the right. This is that uh recently approved what will be that re that that fivetory strike that sixstory building that Barry is starting to build. This is Hey Market Square. So this is uh that 70 University
Drive and that's what we're talking about. And so Barry currently owns it and manages it and Cinda is going to be purchasing it and Pat Cayman's is going to be is going to be managing it. And so
I think um Barry's hap really happy. I mean Cinda is obviously a a longtime Ammeris resident comes from an Ammeris family and Ammerst landlord and Cayman's manages a a lot of properties in town. And so I think Barry's really pleased to
keep it in the family so to speak to have it go to um local land owner and local management. So when I mention Barry and Cinda, I'm here because it's transitioning from Barry to Cinda. >> And the the condition three is change of
ownership or and I think it specifically says if no longer managed by Barry Roberts. >> Uh so when his name gets in there, we have to at least address it. So, uh, that's why I'm here. Um, Nate had sent along a the permit with
some areas highlighted. Um, I'm not sure that I confirmed to him. I think I did, but they're all uh we believe that all have been complied with. I can go through them. Nate, I don't know if you want to show it on the screen, but you know, we're comfortable.
>> Yeah. Why don't Why don't we do that? I think just just so we >> check that box can all be sure we talked about everything that we could think of. >> Great. And Nate, I don't know if you have it to put up. I can pull up your email, I'm sure, if needed.
>> We should have it. I'm sorry. I was doing two things at once. >> There you go. >> I can share the con the decision. So, you know, this is a site plan review and a special permit from 2018. The the decision the conditions and findings are essentially the same. the conditions are
the same between the permits. And so, um, I'll share my screen. It's what's on the, uh, what's in the packet. Um, >> and as far as the management plan goes, everything's staying the same as was
originally approved. Uh, Republic Services is going to be responsible for trash. I think it might have been USA Waste before. And Curb to Curb is going to do landscaping and snow removal instead of whoever Barry had. And those are just folks that Cayman's works with
on behalf of Kohl's when they're um running a property. >> So you here are the you know first uh seven conditions you know so this is condition three that were satisfying. Um I don't think there's really any
change to the management plan for condition two. Um you know for says a signed plan shall be submitted to the board. I'm not, you know, not sure. I'm not even sure there's any signs really. >> Nate, is a new management plan required
that has different names? >> There is one that was submitted. >> Okay. Good. Um, you know, it's follows the rental property bylaw. um you know I don't like
you know as far as I know I asked you know I asked the inspection services and they didn't think of anything um any any issues with this property so you know you know for instance this would have been a time like oh there is a few conditions here that really are outstanding and I didn't hear of anything so >> okay
>> yeah and to that I mean we we had the same we did the same analysis I asked Barry I asked Gail uh I went through those ones that um that Nate you had identified And I think on this side, same thing, right? If if there was going to be an issue, it would have been
identified. I think this was one of those properties that they volunteered to go through that rental registration as one of those test cases. I mean, I think folks know Barry's relationship with the town and inspection services. And so, he was happy to submit this
property and it was inspected. Um, so it's already been through all of those processes. It it's really a nice quiet property on University Drive kind of tucked away. Uh well-managed sufficient parking. Um and I suspect it to stay the
same. I guess the only one Tom is 11 says the office space, it's a small office space as a mixeduse building. It was before any other requirements in terms of size, you know, is not to be used at for as just the management office for this building. But >> I think that's the case, right?
>> How is it? How is it used at the moment? >> I don't believe it's occupied at the moment, but I know that Barry I mean they have their offices across the street at 2535 University Drive. I don't think there's any chance that they could fit into this office. And so when I I've talked
to Cinda and Pat, we've called out uh that condition, right? That and not that I would think Cayman's would use it uh cuz he's right around the corner. Um, but just to make it clear that it's not for on-site management. It has to be
open and available to the public. >> Okay. >> Uh, all the affordable unit conditions have been complied with. That was something that we had to verify for the sale. There's a lot of those. Um,
and then the rest are like really related to construction and issuance before a building permit. So, you know, all these were, you know, construction logistics plan, um, you know, >> all these things. So, as, you know, as far as I know, I, you know, this has all been complied with, so I don't really
have any other concerns really. >> All right, Jared. >> Thank you. Uh, and welcome back, Tom. Um, does the property manager have experience uh complying with the
inclusionary zoning 80% AMI requirements? I've I've heard that um those units are often left vacant or that it can be difficult to comply sometimes. So, I'm curious, does the property manager have experience with that and or do they have any concerns
about being able to fill those those units? >> Great question. So, I'll say historically at this site there's four so there's four affordable units. Um, I think that there's only been like one tenant of those who has
changed since the building's first occupancy, >> and it was because they um, how do you say it? Uh, income out, right? They their income level went so high that they didn't qualify anymore. So, >> the the folks in there have been in
there. Uh that said, Cayman's does have um experience and I think what I talked to Pat, he's used SEB housing, who I suspect you folks are familiar with, but that's who you know, I think even Gail will talk to
Katherine over at SEB to to move some things along. So that that's who Pat uses. Uh but this is a pretty good property because it's already set up. It's got four units and I think one of them's through the maybe Greenfield Housing Authority and one's through Ammerst Housing Authority. So, um the
way that you a little bit more information, Barry runs his properties. It's not necessarily the 80% threshold. He usually does it at voucher uh just to make sure he'd rather have occupancy than vacancy. And so I think that's what
folks have here. And now that the folks are in there to get them out is difficult and I would suggest probably perilous if they were going to try to do something like that. >> Right. Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you. >> And so those all four units are
occupied, >> correct? >> Yeah, I'll just jump in that. Yeah, they're on the subsidized housing inventory for the town. with the SHI and I think we actually amended the regulatory agreement to say that the the income limit is to the payment standard a voucher payment standard. So as
opposed to a strict 80% you know Barry and his team was willing to write that in so it was you know right so the units could get occupied and so um you know so those units have been occupied and Cayman's has had experience with other affordable units so they manage residential and other properties in town
so you know they're familiar with the annual reporting and other requirements so you know whether or not they do it themselves like Tom said they know who you know what resources to use if they need to do income verification So yeah, >> good Angus.
>> Um yeah, I have another question that's not gerine to this uh particular application uh but it's an opport a chance to check in with you um several years after this project has gone up. I I guess I'm curious. Do you all have a sense of whether it's mostly being rented to students or if it's being
rented to non- studentent residents of the town? >> Great question. So um it is not primarily to students. I want to say it it might be either 5050 or even let's say 6040 with it swinging towards non-
studentents. Um we had a meeting with um building commissioner and assistant building commissioner a while ago and shared some of that data with them just that what we see practically is um almost more non- studentents than
students or at least so like 180 fearing street which is uh fearing sunset so-called it's duplexes and apartments right by the university it's probably that same mix where you have like retirey families and students all living
together which is a little bit almost counterintuitive because you're like you're right next to the university you would expect it to be students and it's not and I think it's a function of the market uh and I always I'll go through like infrastructure like what is the like what are the what's the bedroom is
it bed bath parody or not where's the location you know are there amenities are they not and then it's um marketing and just leasing, right? It's having those conversations with people and I know that at least I'll speak directly for, you know, Barry's group. They've
done a really good job. He owns or runs several of these and he he has a mix and it's I don't know that any of them are 100% students. In fact, they're probably closer to that 60 40 50 which is which is a good mix. So yeah, this one especially, I know we've had, you know,
Ammeris College uh athletic coaches, we've had professionals who work, you know, Coca-Cola, uh we've had affordable, we've had uh football players, we've had other students. So it it really is a a good mix. So yeah, I it's certainly not only students.
>> Thanks. That's helpful for us to understand. That was it. Thank you, >> Tom. on that note is uh do you know happen to know the unit mix you know what I mean is it mostly like one and two bedrooms yeah I want to say it's a
majority it's like maybe three threebedrooms like >> 18 twos ones and then and then like the balance of ones with four studios like something like that so let's take seven out of the
36 so out of 29 maybe it's like 18 twos and 11 ones So I think ones and two heavy a few threes and a few studios was was the mix that was there. >> So there's none of those none of the sort of four bedroomedroom four bath
>> units like archipelago's building. >> Correct. And you know even when you go to 180 fearing and I know we're kind of blending into the housing discussion anyway. Um there I don't think there's any bed bath parody if you will right where you have a bed with a bathroom
which are traditionally indicative of student housing. So even the the five university drive project across the street essentially from where we're talking about those are four bed two bath at the maximum and so you know to to build an additional
bedroom isn't that expensive um comparatively speaking and whether it's rented to four people or to to you know a family with a child and have an office. So you have some flexibility versus sticking a bedroom. Uh and not to
say that there's not a place for that, right? But so far we haven't seen the need to to do that and like a four bed, two bath is a nice mix because it's family or graduate or professional or student. >> Okay, Jar,
>> I'm going to follow Angus' lead and ask a question that's like barely germaine, but because we have you, I'd love to pick your brain. Um, and if you want to plead the fifth and have some other, you know, want to think about this and discuss later, >> put Tom on the agenda for every meeting that >> Yeah. Right.
>> time to pick Tom's brain. >> Yeah. >> Um, I'm I'm curious, you know, so far Barry uh is the only um developer who's taken advantage of the University Drive overlay. I'm curious, you know, have do
you have any reflections on uh on your experience with this property at 70 University Drive versus what's happening um at the at the property across the street and and down the street. >> Um yeah, and maybe I'll answer it not as
directly, but I think we'll still get there. So, you know, the property we're talking about now was ahead of its time. you know, it was done. Uh, I remember working with like the previous owner or there was a previous student housing developer and we went through a zoning
change because this was in I mean maybe I don't think it was BL it might have been an office park and so we had to change the zoning and then there was the restriction. So it took a lot for us to get there, but I think people started to buy into, hey, this is a pretty good place for housing, you know, planning
department included. And so this is, you know, 2000, we must have gone through permitting in what is it 2016, 2017, maybe 2017, 2018, 2019. And so it was ahead of its time. Now what you folks have done with the
overlay, I think, is incredible. Um there are uh uh owners who own on the west side who I think might think they recognize a perceived value. I don't know how else to say that of their property. And so um actually loosening
those up is going to be only upon like the right mix of maybe time and money. Um, I can tell you that there are other people investigating University Drive for additional housing like this is, you know, and not knowing, you know, kind of
stepping back. The council is changing. Uh, anytime there's change, there's usually delay, right? Nobody really jumps in and says, "Let's let's make all these changes." And now, not knowing the constitution of the council or, you know, how they're really going to work together. University Drive, thanks to
you folks, um, and to the council, but thanks to you folks, is kind of the prime area, I would say, in town. Appropriately so. Right, when we think back to Five University Drive, it was maybe two hearings uh, with the planning board for a six-story building, maybe two hearings with the conservation
commission, you know, for that site. And so it it really is uh I think the town has spoken an appropriate place to to put this sort of dense housing. And so I would suspect over the next let's say,
you know, 6 months to four years, 5 years. You're going to see some changes down here. It probably will. Like I don't see big Y anything down there. that's just it's kind of too much of a lift and I think you did a good job of restricting what could go
there. Um, but I could see as I'm looking at the map right now, you know, wetlands are a little bit of an issue, but I could see some other things shaking free and and having some more of that mixeduse sixstory dense housing uh in that area. And so kind of my
reflection on 7 drive is it's before its time. It's a great property. It doesn't bother anybody. uh it doesn't have the density that some of these other will, but it's a it's a really nice well-run property. >> Right. Great. All right. Well, so what
I'm hearing is that the overlay did its job in making the development process for mixed use denser housing there easier. Um and uh you've given at least me some additional context as to why we haven't seen more folks take advantage
of it just yet. And the thing is like I know you folks are talking about you know North Ammerst and and allowing denser development up in certain already existing apartment places you know down here even talking to the building commissioner and assistant building uh
commissioner um Dave I'm not sure what his role with all due respect I know he's right there with Rob. So, you know, we we've talked about some existing properties that are expensive to acquire, um, but would make sense to acquire and to take down and to build based upon
this increased density that you're giving. And so, I think, you know, not not to opine on North Ambrose because I think it might be just a different animal from my travels, that does make this attractive down here. And even though some of the numbers are high,
they can somewhat justifiably be high. I think it's an uncertain time in development given what's happening at the federal level with tariffs and interest rate like what happens with the head of the Fed next year the interest rates plummet or or not and what happens
with international students at the university and what's happening with the public private partnership at the university and are they going to be developing things on campus which would supplant you know I have a personal belief but our developers kind of saying well
you know, developers are naturally risktakers. Uh, but they they're calculated risks, right? And so I I think they're waiting for some of those things to settle down, but I can tell you I have had conversations with out of town national developers about
University Drive because they have had some interest in it. Nothing's shaken loose yet, but again, I think it's a matter of time and money. Nick. >> Yeah, I was gonna say, Jar, too with this property, you know, and University Drive, there's a lot of wetlands. And
so, you know, if you look and you're like, "Wow, that's kind of a funny shape, it was um some of it was a land use constraints on the property." I think what might be worthwhile is that, you know, there's a fair amount of parking and from what I've heard that it's not, you know, maybe only half of it is actually necessary. And so, you
know, again with the overlay without being prescriptive on some of those amenities, it allows for, you know, a building size to be commensurate with what you think the parking demand would be. So, you could have more units given the site constraints, right? So, instead of having, you know, the need for more parking limits the size of your the
number of units, you know, it's a different equation. So, yeah, but I this was like a predecessor to, you know, zoning changes and other things. Um, you know, we hadn't established a mixeduse building standard yet. So the mixeduse portion is really small and honestly it's you know it's to the it speaks to
the sometimes to my thought is like well we don't allow apartments with more than 20 units in a building but maybe this would have just been a better apartment building but our zoning doesn't allow it and so they did a mixeduse building at the time you could just do you know a two 300 foot space and call it a
commercial space and get a mixeduse building but then we still have parking requirements and so then you're like well given the wetlands here's what I can do if I need one and a half spaces per unit. If that's what I think I can get a waiver for down from two, then I I get, you know, 30 units. But maybe today
with the overlay, if someone came in fresh, they said, "Well, this would be a 50 unit or a 60unit property, not, you know, a 36." But that's >> Yeah. And it's a three-story building, right? So, right away, you could get
additional height. And so if you're, you know, averaging, you know, 12,000 square feet per floor and you've got, let's say, 12 units per floor and now additional three floors, you're at a 72 unit building right away and maybe 120
beds versus 36 units and 60 beds. So, you know, your density allowance down here, I think it it's going to make a difference. And so, you know, I think you can't envision this being something different, right? There is like the Sabot buildings on the left side, the
west side. I think you know right now Jones Library is in one and uh the old going to be a marijuana maybe a bank and then a marijuana facility and now it's just really I think vacant. You know, those are somewhat ripe but that's probably further down the road. Then you
go just north of that and there's a vacant lot just north of that is a um property that's fully leased which you know it's it's I think it's the new building as Dave Zomic calls it um >> one the one with Athenas and the >> precisely yeah
>> and the bicycle exchange >> which is that's a developable piece but again time is not right and then uh mass alternative care right north of that small parcel don't know much what you could do there something uh and then obviously Five University Drive north of
that. So, you know, that side I think we just went through and that to me is time and then the other side is probably more it maybe time and money. Uh but but you know that might be sooner money. So, we'll see.
>> But yes, you did a great job. Um we'll see what everybody says once the first sixtory building's up. Uh but if if I have to get permitting done, maybe I'll be able to do it before it's all the way up. And and your mention of the council changing did not directly relate to
University Drive, correct? It relates to what else might be done. >> Precisely. Precisely is just, you know, as as developers, right? That's why I sit with Barry and I have a conversation with him and he has other properties in other parts of the town which you know
maybe he can get a three-story building, maybe he can get a two-story building, maybe you know in in downtown maybe he can go up but then is he displacing businesses? And so you know this is all part of the calculus that that he'll do. And so you know when he looks he says all right
well I would need a zone change to make it make sense. And my point of the council changing is, you know, that's not going to happen quickly. I mean, we saw how long the university drive took, despite it being, I think, what what we thought was a
really common sense approach. If that's how long something common sensical takes, you know, how long may some of the other stuff take, especially if a council is trying to figure out how to do their first budget and fitting in with each other to figure out what priorities they want to have? So I I
come back to just timing generally and this is you know uh half a loaf is better than no loaf I'd say and this is a good loaf to have >> any more questions >> germaine or not I suppose. >> Yeah. Well thanks for for sticking
around. >> Happy to do it. >> Uh so are we all set with 70 University Drive? >> Yeah. I was going to bring us back to that. So if there's any >> Yeah. What do we need to vote or just >> I mean you I think a vote I think it'd be helpful just to say that you know
that uh condition you know three was satisfied. >> Three is we we consider it met and uh no objections to the change in ownership. >> Bruce
moved second. All right. Anybody want to talk about that more? We have one member of the public who's still with us. Maybe that person might might want to make a comment, but maybe
not. Just just give an opportunity here. >> I think Sarah's for the housing cuffs. >> All right. I don't see any hands. We'll go ahead and vote. All right. Uh, so we have a motion to
to approve or let's see to to cons to consider that condition three of the original conditions has been or has been met and um that we don't have any objection to the change in ownership.
All right. Uh, starting with you Bruce. I >> Red >> I >> Angus >> I >> Jara >> I >> and I'm an I. That's five in favor.
Two two absences. The motion carries. Thank you, Tom. >> Thank you very much. I appreciate it. >> Good night. >> Good night. >> All right. So, we'll go back to general housing discussion if if we haven't already done that.
Um Nate, um how did you envision where did you think we were going to wander on this in this uh item? >> Yeah, the um you know, I was going to announce that the council voted to approve the housing production plan. And so, you know, there was a a lot, you
know, a fair amount of discussion with the CRC and then with the council about possible changes to some of the kind of language of the plan. Um, and that that didn't move forward. So, it really was the plan that the planning board reviewed back, you know, this summer.
So, you know, so the plan is approved. We're we'll, you know, locally we're we're um we'll send it to the state. You know, I'm I'm confident that they'll approve it. Uh so you know in the packet I had just shown the implementation matrix from the housing production plan and then the zoning priorities list
that's been developed by the housing and zoning subcommittee and staff. And you know I think in the next you know the new planning uh and economic development director Jeff will come in January and I think we're you know staff we're talking a little bit more about really what you know how to prioritize some of the
things from the housing production plan. some of the things on the list, you know, that staff want to work on aren't necessarily housing related. Um, you know, I think it would be important to have a meeting with the planning board and the housing trust, maybe the first meeting in February and maybe with the CRC to say, okay, you
know, what do we take from the housing production plan and what do we try to move forward? Um, so it's kind of like just, you know, a bigger kind of broader discussion. You know, some of it is kind of like what Tom said. I agree that uh it can take a lot of time to get
things, you know, from an idea to a zoning amendment to through council and be adopted. And so, I think I've mentioned this a little bit. I'd like to have, you know, anywhere from four to seven zoning amendments teed up for, you know, spring to be brought forward to town council for their consideration and
referral as an, you know, as zoning amendments. I don't know if they would move all of them forward, but you know, kind of looking at that list and what's in the housing production plan, what the housing and zoning subcommittee is working on, like, okay, can we set ourselves some timelines and and work on
it and, you know, not and you know, kind of keep momentum. And so some of it is one, we really haven't had too much zoning change in the last year, year and a half. If we, you know, I think University Drive is a nice one, but you know, there weren't a lot of other zoning changes. If we bring a few things
in the spring, you know, my hope is that they get adopted by a year from now. So, you know, we're looking, okay, let's get these things working knowing that they might not be effective, you know, for at least a year, right? They're not actually going to be a zoning bylaw could be long or 18 months. And so, you
know, kind of saying what what what do we think is worthwhile? What's, you know, what are we going to pursue? The housing and zoning subcommittees really said, you know, North Amoris is still a priority. you know, looking at um some maybe some changes to the village center zoning, you know, and then um you know,
it's in combination with a few things. Staff, you know, there's a list I think there's a few that we already have work that are being worked on. I'd like to have a few more. Um East Ammerst, like I mentioned, we have a grant for $70,000 to study and assess the zoning in East
Ammerst and then come up with what we think is a zoning zoning changes. And I think you know one's looking at a 40R overlay. You know what the grant doesn't decide is what's the extent and geographic area of the study and what you know what are
we looking at. So that's something that the planning board will also be a part of with staff you know early next year. You know it's it can be about a 12 to 15 month process with a consultant to do this. Um so yeah there's just kind of you know there'll be end up being a lot
happening. I just want to make sure we're, you know, the planning board provides direction to the housing zoning subcommittee if it wants and everyone understands kind of what everyone's working on and, you know, now would be the time to say, "Oh, actually there, you know, I've been thinking about some other things. We can add it to the priority list. We can move things around
on the list." Um, that's all you have. >> What about the housing the downtown design standards? When do you think those are going to drop? >> Yeah. Uh, staff's meeting with Dodson in the next week or two. Uh, I think they'll be made public um in early next
year and then they'll go they'll be shopped around to boards and committees. And so I was thinking it get to the planning board in either late January or February of next year. You know, it'll also go to like design review board, historical commission, um, CRC, you know, commissions for
persons with disabilities. And the idea is that would get to the planning board twice and different boards a few times. And so, you know, I forget what the at, you know, it's a flexible deadline, but I think the idea is to say have them be finalized by the end of, you know, say by by June. I think it was even by May
one. I'm not sure, but we can say by June, right? Well, you know, some of the some of the proposals in that are substantial, you know, or they're significant enough that I I suspect that pro that that proposal is
going to suck all the air out of the room, you know, and make it hard to really focus on anything else. >> Yeah. And not not that I don't admire your your ambition, but um you know how many balls and
particularly a ball of that size can we have can we juggle at once, >> right? And so you know for the planning board you know Bruce is familiar with the standards. He's been part of a working group with Doug and you know a number of other stakeholders in town.
you know, the Dodson and Flinker looked at downtown and they've kind of divided it into a few different kind of subd districts. And each district has their own standards which, you know, end up being, you know, both changes to our dimensional standards and then maybe even like a whole new overlay zone for
parts of downtown. And I think, you know, what what isn't clear is, you know, even once the standards are complete, you know, what do we do with them? And so I think they seem really great. I don't you I haven't looked at them. I don't know say the details right but the kind of the idea of them is nice
I agree with Doug it could be like a year process then of saying well do we just take exactly what they've given us and try to change zoning or do we how do we sit with it and tweak it and then move it forward but I do think it will be a bit of a process I
think you know for instance like you know do they people like the idea of more density on the west side of Kendrick Park do they like having different setbacks in the downtown um you know the idea is to all have a more vibrant streetscape. So really what the
idea is like okay right now in our BG district we have you know essentially zero setback and they might be saying well we need five feet we need 10 feet and so we'd have to change our dimensional table and our zoning bylaw in a bunch of places to get the standards to work. I think that's Yeah,
I agree, Doug. It's a heavy lift, but it's something that I would still like to have, you know, the four to seven this spring, >> knowing that come fall we'd be pushing the design standards changes. >> Okay, Angus and then Jar. >> Yeah, I was just going to say I I would
like to second what what Nate's suggesting. I think the design standards are going to take a while. Um, and and I think that they should be a priority for the planning board, but it it just sounds like there's going to be a lot of stakeholders weighing in and a lot of iterations and changes and I would love
it if they were ready to go by May 1st, but I I think that's an ambitious uh timeline for the design standards. And I but I do I do take your point, Doug, and I think in the housing subcommittee, we should probably chat about which two or three things we really want to
prioritize. The North Amoris overlay is clearly one. Um I think looking at something like Village Centers could be another option. Looking at um along with Nate um Nate's you know uh consultant the East Ammer stuff um would be great.
>> I think yeah >> and then you know maybe one other thing um would would be good and that would also give us some distribution around town with different types of housing that we're looking at. Um and it would align, I think, with several of the um these priorities in the housing
production plan. >> Good. Good. Uh Jared, >> uh I just wanted to um second Nate's ambition and I think it's a great idea to try and get a couple things packaged
through this spring and you know saying it with a threemonth-old baby would love to support you know as much as I can outside of these meetings. Um uh and to that extent I I would say like just um I
would advocate for the 40R and 40 Y overlays being part of that package seeing as you know one accomplishes affordable rental housing and one looks at more starter home home ownership opportunities. So I think impairing
those two things would be and they're also looking at different you know um uh kinds of zones and and and areas. So I think those would be uh ones that I would advocate strongly for um being a
part of that package. >> Right. >> Yeah. I was going to sorry if I just jump in. Some of it would be if we meet with the trust too, you know, would they be willing to do some research to help support the planning board, you know, so you know, um, you know, there I think the housing trust is also eager to move
some things along from the housing production plan. And so, you know, whether it's the first meeting in Jan in February or maybe the last one in January, but having some time, you know, in the in the next few meetings to do that just to see what, you know, what they're thinking about as well. And so
you know the housing production plan you know it for instance it says increased density right in say in certain neighborhoods it doesn't doesn't give you know in the plan it might have a little bit more direction but it doesn't have a lot. >> Yeah. >> So now the it's like well you can
probably get there many different ways. Is it you know changing the allowance for town houses and duplexes? Is it redefining triplexes? or is it reducing you know having a new formula just for density overall in terms of like
reducing lot area per family I you know so it's those kinds of things that you know become difficult to kind of far it out and then move forward you know for staff for instance we're looking at the limited site plan review for protected uses and also having different criteria
to allow more things to be administratively approved and having less site plan review hearings with the planning board >> you So the Amoris College one is interesting. It's a new building. It needs a building permit. That would probably still go to a hearing. But what if for instance the salt shed was didn't
need a building permit was under 200 square feet and they weren't doing any other changes to the property. I think that could have been handled administratively. But right now any new accessory structure has to be brought to the planning board for a full hearing. So Ammer soccer came earlier this year
to put a a pre you know prefab uh storage shed and you know I think that could have been handled administratively. You know the idea is we're going through what other towns do what our previous permit conditions are and then saying okay you know how can we
make regulations to get to where we are we were through the hearing. So what kind of conditions did we have what are the thresholds? Um, you know, allowing more than one principal dwelling on a property is something we're looking at changing. Um, so we don't allow that right now. It's
not very clear. Does, you know, and so the concern is, you know, is it allowing a single family home plus a duplex plus an apartment or do we define that? So, it's something we're looking at. Um, we have temporary uses, I think I mentioned. So allowing you know a farm
to be used for venues you know frequently. Um I think changing PRP zoning is really interesting. So you know it's been discussed at the housing and zoning subcommittee. We have professional research park areas in town and the idea would be could we allow
housing or put overlays on them to allow a few other uses other than just what's allowed in the PRP. Now uh something that staff would like to move forward. One thing that will be coming and it's um it's from the state is the state just came up with new clean energy sighting.
So they came up with a whole new set of regulations. A community has to have it in place a little less than a year from now. So any um has to have new zoning and regulations for um I think it's both solar wind and wind and maybe hydro. I don't know, maybe it's just solar, but I
think it was for a few that essentially this these have to get permitted from initial land use permits to building permit all within a year. So essentially they created like a comprehensive permit for clean energy. Um and the CRC's been working on the solar bylaw for a long
time now in town. Um you know it's 25 pages and now it's it's going to you know staff will look at it and so in this next few months that'll become a big one that the planning department will be working on with staff. So, we have to get something hopefully adopted
by like November one of next year uh to deal with solar and other clean energy uh facilities and it's everywhere from small to large. Uh there's a lot going on but you know if anyone's interested that's something so there's like you know those are four right there that
staff are trying to you know keep moving. >> All right. Anything else uh Nate you wanted to discuss tonight? No, I mean I I you know I think just you know for the board just
you know you can look at the matrix from the housing production plan our zoning list and you can always email staff individually or have questions and I think you know we'll keep this on the agenda and I think you know in January let's like yeah I think it'd be great to focus um the housing and zoning subcommittee already has I think North
Ammerst you know I mentioned at the housing subcommittee you know there's I I think there's not as much enthusiasm for it as University Drive just given you know its location I think it's still if you look at townwide it's a it's actually a an appropriate place and so
just getting that right will you could take a lot of work at the same time you know we have a framework already I said I'd try to get more language to it and I think we should just just try to just you know just say okay let's give ourselves a deadline right by April one we'll have a draft of this overlay and
you know it might not be perfect but it's something that can then be referred it'll be referred the idea is if council thinks it's good enough they'll refer it back to the planning board in CRC for more discussion. So, it's really just getting it in a form we think is good enough to be referred. Um,
yeah. And so, you know, >> well, well, I'm I'm happy to set a deadline for April 1, but you know, you've got to do most of the work. >> Yeah. So >> well I I feel like if we had two or
three that are sort of >> right >> substantive dimensional or geographic proposals >> and then some of the other sort of procedural ones would be okay but to have more than a few
proposals that are going to be the ones that are controversial um you know is just kind of not a recipe for success. So that's me. I mean I'm I'm just a little more cautious I guess than some of the rest of you.
>> Yeah. The housing and zoning subcommittee thought you know if there's North Ammeris it' be great to have one other geographic area right. So really it's you know it's not like the the council or the community can say oh we're really singling out North Ammeris. It's like look we're look we're trying to propose something in North Amoris and somewhere else you know. Well, since
you've got the consultant uh money for East Ammerst, I mean, wouldn't that be the number two? >> Yeah. I just don't think it would be ready this spring. So, >> Oh, really? >> Right. So, we don't even have a contract signed yet. You know, the grant was just awarded. We're, you know. >> Okay. All right.
Bruce. >> Um, uh, I have, um, been in influenced, I think, by the conversations that have been h going on in the press and with Kitty and with Darcy, with the, uh, the,
um, the petitions that were lodged, the people that were speaking to that. I went to an ASM community land trust meeting. I ran into a guy named Ralph Calstrom. his page. Uh um
anyway, they live on fearing u and I got an interesting earful from Ralph. Um and and as we uh as I had my attention turned back to the research that I did started doing 3 years ago
looking for towns like Amnest and have dealt a little bit more with that not a lot but beginning to uh it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that uh that we should challenge ourselves and others
to firstly to say Why or is there another town uh in the country that is more uh um challenged by the ratio of the population of the town to the uh size of
the institution in factored in with the uh amount of the proportion of uh often onampus students that that institution hosts or doesn't. And it seems to me that Amist is unique.
Uh and it's occurring it it's becoming uh more apparent to me that uh of the three options that I uh articulated years ago or to myself anyway and maybe others that there are the housing can be
provided on campus by the university. It can be provided off campus with the existing housing in small scale distributed through the town. all trying to uh diminish the adverse effects of transitory residence in two greater
concentrations. Or three, we can do what we're trying to do with the overlays, which is to recognize that we need to uh concentrate uh um student uh occupancy in one uh in in a particular part of
town near campus. of those three. I had discounted the the first of those the expectation that the university would increase its uh provision of onampus housing because I was um I guess uh
lulled by the proposition that it already uh houses more students than uh than many of uh similar institutions around the country. But when we put the that together with that we are a unique
situation. It seems to me that we can and should be thinking about we can and should be making a stronger, better, more persistent uh case to the university to the uh
administration that they should do better uh and that some fraction of this 9,000 housing that we need should be on campus. We should raise the bar on that. I guess I've also just finished a
biography of Samuel Adams who uh I knew something about before and now know a lot more about. And here's a guy who was relentless in his advocacy for a certain proposition and and was very very clever and uh and strategic about the way he
went about it for 10 years or more. And I've become somewhat uh um inspired by Mr. Adams's uh success on a much more difficult challenge than what we've got here. But I think that we should
seriously shift our strategic objective to expecting that we should um persuade the university to increase the amount of onampus housing because there does seem to be places to
put it and so forth. I think there's a conversation there because there are two big downsides to that. One is that if it's on campus, we don't get the the tax revenue and if it's on campus, we don't get the affordable housing fraction. So, there are two considerable losses.
Uh, and I think we should be thinking about how to um weigh that. And I I certainly think that I haven't been uh putting enough of my mental energy into um
deliberating on that particular uh solution concept to uh the housing and therefore specifically the hu student housing part of our town's housing need. Um anyway, I've written a four-pager on this and I don't know whether it's a
preamble to the overlay thing which I said that I would do or whether it's an opinion piece that could be published and be the basis for an advocacy. I know when I was uh successful in creating the first co-housing community in town, it
started with a couple of uh pretty uh wellreceived and uh oped pieces in the bulletin which got the uh the horse out of the stable. And I think uh I'm beginning to think that that some effort
should be put in that direction. All right, Bruce. Um, Angus, I see your hand. I guess Bruce, I'll just say, um, it's never been clear what kind of leverage the town has with the
university to me. Um, you know, I've been on I've been involved in housing discussions kind of on both sides of the fence for a while. And um you know I think it's just unclear to me how Paul
Bachan can say to the chancellor of UMass you need to do more and and have it have any teeth. Um I think until the university recognizes that it's in their you know somehow it's in their best interest
I I don't I just don't know how you can compel that. I guess is all I'll say. >> Well I I know you can compel it. That's exactly the point. Uh, one has to be persuasive. Uh, and that's the point of the Adams example, which just happens to be the most recent one in my head. Um,
but I've spent a lot of my life uh uh persuading organizations in various countries to do things that they didn't think they wanted to do or didn't know they should do. and uh I haven't always been successful, but I've had a fairly remarkable level of success actually
with the organizations that I've either started or participated in. So, I wouldn't give up on it. But but back to your point, I too don't know. Uh uh I think that it's that precisely that fact, Doug, that we perhaps don't really
know what uh leverage we have that uh I mean, if we knew we didn't have any if we absolutely knew that uh uh that that uh that we could not be persuasive, but I don't know that that's true. And uh
I'd like to spend some time thinking about how the town could be more persuasive. And it starts in my head with a recognition that we are unique. And maybe we're not, but so far I haven't been able to find another town in the country that's uh more challenged
in this respect than this town. Not one. Not one town in the country. And that should stand for something in terms of being persuasive and uh and then figuring out how to get allies to also join in the argument or the case, making the case and making the case. as you
say, as to why it's in the university's best interest. I think there's a case I think we can think about that, too. But I'd like to give some I'd like to put some effort into that at some point because it seems to me that that's a solution concept that perhaps we had let slip uh more than uh than we should.
That's the that's a kind of a late 25 realization that I may or may not entertain into 26. All right, Angus and then Jara. >> Yeah, I have a quick question and then I have a response. Uh the the question is
did the uh planning board in in the in past years have a meeting with UMass representatives? >> Yes. >> And did anything come of that meeting? Was there anything useful that that happened with that? Do we feel like
there was kind of momentum in in any way? Well, the I mean I can say that the meeting was with a couple of the senior people in university relations and um so they had a they had come
prepared with some of the sort of facts around housing so that people, you know, weren't throwing around numbers that were inaccurate. Um Bruce, were you in that meeting? >> Yes, I was. I was going to say the same
thing. uh we got >> I don't remember any you know they weren't they weren't the sort of folks who could make a commitment or you know on the behalf of the university >> not not even close and and I think the town manager has made it clear to us as
a board that uh he doesn't want any um intrusion into a conduit between the town and the university that uh doesn't go right through his office. >> That's right. and and I can maybe understand that. I probably can understand that. But uh but I don't
think I'm fully satisfied that uh that the I don't know enough about what's going through that conduit. Therefore, I'm not uh inclined to uh trust that everything possible is being rammed down that pipe.
>> Okay, that that's helpful to hear. And um and I should add I just finished a biography on James Madison. So I'm also thinking about um some of these people and Madison was was a little bit less strident than Samuel Adams. So maybe I'll I'll take a a slightly softer
stance. I mean it it sounds to me based on on hearing that that it it could be useful for us to have a meeting with the town manager to get a sense of his strategy. I'm I'm just looking at the housing production plan um under section D. The second strategy
listed is continue to strengthen town gown relationships and update strategic agreements with academic partners to invest in community services. and the lead responsibility is town manager and planning department which sounds like what you yall are saying but it sounds
like um it might be useful for us to chat with the town manager to get a sense of what he's saying to UMass what he's hearing from UMass and for us to share that as we are thinking as we are necessarily making planning decisions around town housing UMass is a key part
of that even though it's not under our purview Um, but then I guess to to counter some of that, I'll just also say I I think some I I share Bruce your worries about um los losing property tax revenue. Um, as someone who studies
school finance, that's a major concern of mine. If UMass ends up housing a lot of these students, then then it's a it's a a drag on a number of costs for the town without commensurate payments unless UMass agrees to pilots and I
don't think they're going to do that either. Um but but I do think they have to be part of the conversation. They should be. Um the other thing that I was going to say or the other the other thing that I'm thinking about
um is that uh the conversation around UMass providing the housing sometimes the the feeling that I get from people across town is that there's some kind of confusing narratives there. Um, I mean, for instance, I've heard people say, you
know, that that town can't um that town services can't handle building additional housing, UMass should build it. Um, which seems confusing to me. Um, because a lot of those services, regardless of whether UMass builds it,
that the sewage impact is going to be the same whether UMass builds it or the or somewhere outside of UMass property, housing is built. So there's there are some things that I think are really important points that we should be thinking about, but then there's also some um I guess talking points that I've
heard around pushing UMass to provide housing that feel incorrect and that and that I don't want to reinforce which you're not saying Bruce, but just some of the things that I'm thinking about as we think about how to bring more into this conversation.
>> All right, Angus. Um, I guess one thing's come to mind that I'm going to just interject for a moment. Uh Tom Rei mentioned earlier the the university's public private partnership initiative that is a sort of public and um you know
I don't know exactly what's going on at the moment but um I have I I I have heard uh one of the university relations folks say in a public meeting that the uh the objective of that is to renew
knew the housing that the university has now. It's not explicitly to expand the housing. So, you know, if they have 13,000 beds, um, you know, a lot of them were built
in the 70s or the 60s, they want to renew those or replace them, but not necessarily expand beyond the current capacity on campus. So, um, you know, I think that's one of the things, Angus,
that people might be a little confused about that, oh, you know, university has this big P3 project and it's going to expand housing. Not necessarily. All right, Jara, and then Fred.
Uh, I just want to reiterate all the comments made about the importance of figuring out a more sustainable partnership between this town and the university as it relates to like coordinating housing strategy. Um,
one of the things that really is like disappointing for me to hear when I'm having conversations with folks about housing and as it particularly relates to UMass is like it invariably always goes down to a well the town can't do any anything. We don't have any leverage
or anything like that. Um, and this is not like a reflection on on any of the members who have made that comment tonight, but the fact is that that just it always goes to that. And I wish that the conversation was more about how we can work together and not like how can
we pull one over on the other guy to get them to do what we want. Because my job, my day-to-day job is like looking at local housing environments, looking at housing markets and stakeholders and recognizing that this housing crisis that we're in is not going to be solved
by any one entity whatsoever. We all need to work together to find solutions and we all have assets that we can bring to the table. And so it's just really frustrating for me to hear and learn that there aren't any kind of regular conversations between the town and the
university about addressing this critical resource that our community needs and that we're both talking about figuring out how to find solutions for, but we're not talking about it together. Like if I was a hired consultant working for the town of Ammerst, I would be
like, "You guys are nuts. Why are you not talking to UMass right now? And I know there's a lot more complicated >> conversations are happening at with Paul with the with the town manager. >> Yeah, I well I guess I guess I don't
know that to be the case. I'm a planning board member and I don't know that to be the case. If it is, I would love to know what those conversations were about. I would love to know so that I could make my recommendations on what we pursue for the housing production plan are complimentary and not contradictory to
what UMass or or Ammeris College or Hampshire College might be doing. Like right now we're just making a lot of decisions in this vacuum and pretending like this ginormous gorilla doesn't live across the street from us. Like we need to talk to them about what we're doing
so that we can all work together. This is I'm going to stop myself because I'm now getting on a soap box and just ranting. Um but I would I would implore um us and to the degree that we can to have some more uh vocal and transparent
leadership on what we are doing together to solve housing in this community. And I'll stop there. >> Okay, Nate, I hope you're taking notes. >> Yeah. And this is not a slight on town staff by any like I want to make that
>> No, I'm just thinking, you know, I mean, we'd need to engage with the with the town manager and Nate would be the conduit for us to do that. >> Yeah. No, I think you know, and so Jared, you know, some of the background is when we had done talking about University Drive, it was like, well, if we can say we have a thousand beds
there, it was referenced in a U3 report from the town gown committee a number of years ago. And it was like okay maybe with another one it's like you know here are some you know things we can bring to you mass and say well what what else could you do and so Doug hearing you and I know about the P3 I know it was really
about looking at what you know how can you maintain the beds on campus but it's like you know my idea was always like if we can get a thousand or 1200 beds on university drive if the university with this P3 would add a thousand beds on their campus we get a little bit more in North Ammeris if we can talk to Hadley
and all of a sudden there's like 4,000 more beds than we have Now, that's a that's a that's a really big deal that we're not going to get otherwise. And so, you know, I feel like the conversations are, you know, I feel like a lot of things are happening and we should make sure that that is part of the conversation with UMass. I made a
note. I do think it's really important that, you know, if they're going to be rebuilding or, you know, possibly renovating Southwest Towers or doing some major housing overhaul, you know, is adding, you know, some beds here, some beds there, whether or not it's a
thousand, whatever. But in having some incremental change, I feel like could be part of that, right? They, you know, because they're going to be spending millions of dollars. Like I I have a feeling that there someone's going to say that the Southwest Towers need to be torn down, right? Because they're so old. And if they're really going to be rebuilding new buildings, why can't you
put more beds in new buildings, even if they're, you know, renovating? Anyways, so I think, yeah, those are really important conversations to have. You know, I think the citizen petitions calling out some of the data from the housing production plan. I mean it's something that I've always thought is like what do we want to have as a goal
to be to have as a in a community in terms of vitality and population and school age children and all these things and so to Bruce's point it's like well if the schools aren't attractive are professors not going to be coming to the university and colleges are you know
what else is happening and I think you know there's a you know it's it's regional right it's not just Amoris it's in all the northeast but you know I think that you know It's getting to the point where after the citizen petitions I was looking at you know the state allows seasonal community designation
students don't count but the Cape Cod and the Birkers if you're a seasonal community you can have regulations about certain housing and lease terms and at one point we said well could students could you could you include make student communities and I think it was like that
didn't get traction at the state level but you know I you know I was trying to like okay are there things we could start to try to help, you know, non- studentent households because of the imbalance in the market. And so, you know, it's really difficult to address
that that, you know, who lives and who lives where, you know, but we've talked about having a higher inclusionary zoning. And so, you know, right now we have, you know, at University Drive, we talked about maybe, you know, 20% of the units have to be affordable, but that 12
to 20, so that 8% is up to 150 AMI. and that tries to get to a different kind of household than say capital A affordable and it's not you know Dedra is not on our subsidized housing inventory but it's just trying to get different income levels into housing. It's kind of refreshing to hear what Tom said. But
yeah, I think there's, you know, I I agree. I feel like there's, you know, especially with the new director here, maybe that's something I'll talk about too is, you know, it was I thought it was helpful to have a meeting with Tony and Nancy. So, it was nice to know some of the facts, what they're thinking about in terms of housing, kind of how they do data collection, right? So for
the longest time, you know, everyone's like UMass must know where the students are. And they were really clear and they said, well, since COVID the pandemic, they are have much better data, you know, from 22 moving forward. And so, you know, to me, it's not worth arguing like how many students lived off campus
in 2019. It's like, okay, what can we do moving forward? And now the university has some metrics to actually say that, you know. Um, and you know, part of North Ammerst overlay was also with the University Village in North Ammerst. It was like they didn't do anything in terms of increasing density when they
rebuilt it. And they could have, one of their concept ideas was to do basically like a backbay town houses and have uh, you know, more of a gritted network of streets and have more density but still have open space and, you know, make it more like, you know, it's a different kind of neighborhood than what's there.
Uh, but it didn't happen. But, you know, I think some, you know, I've heard a number of people say like, "Oh, that was a really a missed opportunity to have again more housing but still have a nice site plan." Instead, they, you know, just rebuilt what was there
and, you know, and it, you know, I think the the folks like it and it's nice, but it's like, you know, was there another opportunity that could have been had anyways? >> All right, we'll go on to to Fred. >> Yeah. Um, couple things. Uh, I was on
the board the same time that Bruce was when the when UMass sent the representatives in. That was when we were meeting in person in town hall. And I came away struck by uh the
UMass uh very forcefully pointing out that they were housing a greater percentage of students than lots of their counterparts. And I meanwhile I was thinking back to when I was a student at UMass in the 60s
and they are presently housing a far smaller percentage of students on their campus than they were when I was a student there. Uh so that's uh it's a little bit disingenuous on their
part just to point to uh uh that they're uh somehow greater than other land grant uh institutions. Uh they're not higher than what they used to be. Um the other thing that was
clear from that meeting is that uh the really meaningful discussions between the town and the gown were going to take place between the manager and the chancellor and uh so I think it's very important
that uh we get the manager uh to take a little time and discuss this e either with the full board or with the housing stuff committee uh so we get a better sense of exactly uh what the uh dynamics
are of uh uh those discussions uh going forward. >> All right, thank you Fred Angus. >> Yeah, just two quick things. Um one and I is just in response to what Fred was saying. Um it we should note that at
least over the last 60 years that the percentage of um students that are housed on campuses all across the country has f fall fallen a lot. So that that it's UMass is part of a larger trend across higher education in the United States in particular for uh
public universities. Um the same thing has happened at the University of Texas where I went. Um, but uh the the other thing I was going to just point out is I I think I think Bruce is right to be bringing this up in in this capacity and
especially the the language that I've been hearing from residents is really viewing students as in hostile ways. Um I mean the language is it's not it's not exactly turning ugly. Um, and I and I've
not been here long enough to know what it what the conversation was like 10, 20, 30 years ago, but the um there really seems to be an antagonistic kind of focus on students as like a threat to the community or as a problem to be
solved. And at some level there there is a problem here that we are trying to solve. I mean, it's a it's a broader housing problem than just students though. Um, and I I think um I think we need to be alive to the fact that if we don't do some things at least to reach
out to the town manager in the way that that we're kind of proposing, um I I worry that that trend is going to continue and UMass is an enormous asset. The students are wonderful residents in many ways. Um, and and I I don't want us
to get to a point where we're treating this wonderful institution that has problems like any institution as a a problem for the town. >> Yeah, I yeah, I'd second that. So, I think it's really difficult to um, you know, separate out, you know, like the
housing market and then, you know, we call out different parts of the population. And so, you know, I I um there was a civic academy that the town hosted and there was, you know, 20 or 25 students and I represented the planning department and there were, you know,
students from um different, you know, I don't know if you know, you know, different call maybe UMass student, but anyways, there were students that attended and then we had a discussion outside and they said, "Oh, why doesn't some a few there was like passerbys and they stopped and I was talking about student housing and someone said, "Why doesn't the town likes like like us
students? And it and I was like I'm like well what do you mean? And they said well I all I've been hearing is really anti- studentent. And I said I'm you know I'm really sorry about that right because it's like I think it was related to the housing but they you know this person was actually I think felt really
personal about it and it's hard to separate the person from right the broader housing picture. And I said really I know I said I you know it's a it it's a nuance but it's really about say the demand the the housing demand and supply and it's really not the student because right there's so many
things that students bring to the town the university and colleges bring that just make Ammeris Ammeris right so Ammeris wouldn't be what it is without you know UMass Hampshire and Ammeris and the five colleges and so yeah I think you know in the housing production plan they said to change kind of the language
and rhetoric and kind of that and I thought it was changing and I feel like maybe I feel like recently in the last right six months or a year it's kind of shifted back again but I feel like we can have these conversations about housing right and not try to vilify certain populations because you
could you know someone could start talking complaining about seniors right well we're an aging population so you know it's more about what can we do to accommodate them right is it like aging in place is it providing different types of living facilities or different size units right to accommodate single
individual households rather than saying well we you know so yeah I think that's a really important piece and so the housing trust has been working on that too kind of messaging and how do we have these conversations and so that's where I'd want to meet with them in February because I know I and unfortunately I
think one of their members left but they were really big on this in terms of how to you know be more kind of inclusive and more kind of sympathetic and have you know a different kind of approach and so I think it's a really good idea um and I Right. I I can, you know, let the town manager and assistant town
manager know if they can't come to a meeting, at least what the planning board has expressed. Um, and you know, I think it's those are really important conversations. So, I I did feel bad actually that a few people ask me at Civic Academy, why doesn't the town like students? And I've heard people say,
well, students don't support the economy, you know, they're not here year round and all these things. And you know, and I I don't I'm not gonna, you know, you know, I feel like I don't you could have a rebuttal for everything, but it's like, well, I think they they do all those things. And so, it's just
one of those it's a hard conversation. To me, it's more about the demand they put on housing and how it affects prices. It's not, you know, whether it was students or some other demographic. It's like, how do we address that supply and demand issue, not who who is causing
it? Well, I I mean I will say that I think it also has to do with the number of cars that are accumulated at at student homes. You know, I live across from a tiny little house that has at least four people or if not five. So,
there's always four or five cars in the driveway. And then there's another up to another five cars from boyfriends and friends that are there, you know, very any any could be there 24 hours a day
but but aren't constantly there. So there's a lot of vehicle traffic. Um, and then there's the Thursday night walk into town, which they depart around 10:00 and then they come back anywhere from 1 to 2:00,
which, you know, during the shoulder seasons when they're there and my windows are open, you know, I hear them going both ways. Um, so I think some of it's that kind of thing. It's it's the the behavior and the traffic that are
that are not typical for a single family home. Um so I mean I I get it. I live with it too. >> Yeah. No, I Yeah, I don't Yeah, I agree. The parking >> but So to me it's more than demand. I
mean, when people say, you know, you're threatening our neighborhoods, some of it's that some of it is that behavior, which if it didn't exist, I think the objection to having students
infiltrating the neighborhood would not be as boseiferous. So, so what I was actually going to say was um um I Nate, help me with the dates, but
probably 10 to 12 years ago, the then chancellor of UMass and the town manager at the time, I guess, kind of agreed to have a kind of a joint effort
of communication and discussion about a number of things, one of which was housing and I think they called it the University Town of Ammerst Collaborative. UTAC is was the acronym. And around that time, I think the
university helped the town, if not entirely, funded the U3 report that you referred to, which was a hiring a sort of urban design firm to look at places
where housing could be could be built, I guess, is kind of how it started. and it ended up identifying three parcels that were owned by the university. Um,
one is that sort of vacant parcel on on UN on North Pleasant Street as you drive from, you know, as as the as as Triangle Street goes through the roundabout and you you're approaching the campus on the right, there's the that vacant parcel
uh just after the church and across from the Hill Center, let's say. So, and that's often been called the gateway parcel. Um, so that was one. The second one was on Massav at the south
end of the main campus where the university has just, you know, a few years ago built that big Fieldstone complex which I think it has 600 beds, something like that. And then the third one was over
off of University Drive, uh, kind of in the some of the parking lots north of the station of the stadium. And so, you know, that effort ended up being what can UMass build on its its land and
not too much about what can the town do. Um, and then out of that came the big complex that the university built with the 600 beds. So, you know, I mean, I haven't heard people at the university say this, but I
think you could say the university conducted a process with the town. Some stuff was identified and the university did something. Um, so you know, what did the town do? So, I think that's just another sort of part of the history, I
guess, is what I'll say. Um, and you know, there's a new chancellor at UMass. Maybe it's time for that person and Paul to to uh, you know, reinvigorate the UTAC process
or have a new process, whatever, and um, take another pass at it. And then, and then there's one other thing I'll say. I see your your hand, Fred. Um, and and I've wondered whether I I mean I've been a little bit mystified that
the level of rhetoric about students and housing has increased so much lately and um and kind of wondered why. And I I have a hypothesis which you guys can tell me if you think it's got any legs
or not, but you know, a lot of the people that moved here, a lot of the a lot of the UMass faculty and staff who moved here to support the huge enrollment increase of the university back in the 70s, let's say they're a lot
of them are dying off and or moving out, you know, moving into assisted living or moving out of town near their their children or whatever. So, I wondered whether are there a lot more houses coming up for sale in the last 5 years
than had been coming up for sale before, in which case there's a lot more inventory for developers to buy and turn and turn into student housing than had been the place the case in the 20 or 25 years before that. which might be why,
you know, we've had a lot more conversions. I if we have and I don't really know that, but could it be that there's sort of a generational transition happening? Uh, you know, because we're a relatively
old population of of homeowners and, you know, the ones who haven't left town are are experiencing a lot of change that they haven't seen in their 30 or 40 years being here. and and maybe that's it's a generational thing which is
providing the opportunity for the the developers to come in. So that's just a hypothesis I wanted to share. Uh Fred, go ahead. >> Uh yeah, I uh I think that's a good point, Doug. Um
the uh uh the neighborhoods are changing. Uh and uh my neighborhood is certainly a case of point. Uh I remember oh
40 years ago roughly uh there were uh a lot of uh the percentage of owner occupancy uh was higher than it is now.
And I can vividly remember my wife and I sponsoring what we called our our baby Jesus birthday party. And we put out uh this hu my wife and put out this huge
sheetcake with a gazillion candles on it. And uh we had children at this coming, you know, down the street from from all over.
And uh if if we did that today, we we might get uh one or two families. Uh there's been a you're quite correct. there has been a shift and uh I'm not clear to the extent to
which u it's uh pressure from students uh and to the extent to which uh there's been a generational shift that that is something that uh we need to think about.
>> All right, thanks Fred. Jared, >> I will note it's it's about 20 after 9ine and >> I know >> I'm hoping we're done by 10. >> Yeah, I'll be I'll be I'll be quick. Um I think I think Doug that's a very interesting theory and I think it
certainly makes sense. I think a a important part of all of this although Ammerst may not be well enough hedging. um you know uh speculation of single family homes and turning them into rentals is a a growing thing nationally.
It's not just something that's you know happened recently in Ammerst. Um there's a lot of different models for how you can do it. But there's a lot of really awful predatory equity firms out there who are very intentionally buying up single family homes and turning them
into rental opportunities. usually doing minimal repairs, flipping them, and then charging them for as much rent as they possibly can. Um, so I think it's an interesting point that like yes, the town probably grew in the 70s. A lot of homeowners are probably downsizing. Um,
and that may put more supply on the market, but I think that the case is also just that nationally, unfortunately, the wealth, those who have a lot of wealth have discovered that this is a really lucrative model. Um, and they know that not a lot of single family
homes are being built right now. So that if they buy them up and turn them into rentals, they're going to be able to squeeze a lot of rental money out of them. Um, >> yeah. >> Uh, Nate. >> Yeah. Thanks, Doug. Yeah, I want to acknowledge, right, that so, you know,
you said it was, you know, behavior, parking, there's a bunch of things associated with, you know, you know, students and I I want to acknowledge that. I think, you know, I was talking about what we kind of what we're focusing on is zoning. And so I feel like, you know, we have the residential rental property bylaw and we've had a few other
>> things um you know, the last 10 years through inspection services and even with the police in UMass to kind of address behavior and things and I feel like we're we've been, you know, zoning just moves a little differently. And so I feel like we kind of have to look at that now. And I feel like it's a really good time to with the new housing
production plan and how we can do certain, you know, different things with housing. Um, so yeah, I yeah, I I I took notes. I I feel like, you know, we can have a few other conversations with different staff and talk about a few of those things. So, you know, parking is really interesting as things we try to
talk about, you know, in zoning and general bylaw and if it's, you know, maybe we have to reexamine some of those standards and what that means, you know, because, you know, hearing what you're talking about, um, it's like, yeah, is is there some way that we can, you know, just have a few, you know, is there some
is there something we could the town could do or have some ideas around there? Um, and so, yeah, I think that's really important. In in terms of the rentals, I was thinking J as you're talking that you was on vacation this summer, you know, I was abroad and people are saying, you know, it was
unbelievable like you wouldn't believe h right, how in the last, you know, five years how many units say in like Madrid are now just short-term rentals, right? Or Barcelona. And I heard you know from a number of people that you know because of the tourists or whatever the reason
was but it was you know it's it's it's totally changed the the dynamics of the market there and so you know especially in Spain I was looking at it was you know it's like the you know unemployment rate of under 30 is high the cost of
housing is like four times the average wage and you know now a significant portion of the rental of the housing units in in Madrid in the suburbs like you know over 30% are short-term rentals and I am like oh my gosh you know it's like
there's like whatever it is like the the statistics are just amazing and I'm like okay so this is happening for some other reason here you know Amoris has its reasons and you know probably you know whatever down in Florida will have its reasons but I I was just shocked to learn that it was happening places where
I you know say rental units I just have a different historically are different right say in Europe than what they mean in in in America, but what hearing people say that what they're experiencing, it's unbelievable. And some of it had to do with, right, long-term renters, families were turning
over, but people see this as a an investment vehicle differently than what they had say even 10 years ago. And it's just it's really I don't, you know, it's like Black Rockck, right, or all these companies. It's it's unbelievable. Not really sure how to I don't know if you can stop it, but it's just, you know, I
just in my neighborhood, a house just sold for an unbelievable amount and it's becoming a rental and they're probably going to charge way too much for whoever is going to live there. >> The way to stop it is to let a whole lot of housing be built so that there's not so much money to be made in single
family houses. >> Correct. Yes. Don't constrain the supply. >> Yeah. But that would allow that would create some change in the character of Ammerst, >> right? Some vacancy is a good thing to have a little >> Yeah.
>> No, I I'm you know, I I I Yeah, I just can't believe the home prices and they sell like in three days, you know, it's like they have an open house. You I call you I called the realtor and they said, you know, on day three, we're going to be close closing our offers. So, you know, comes a list on Saturday. by
Monday they're going to be accepting offers and you know they get a dozen and some are cash above asking and it's like how do you compete with that? Same with the house across the street. It only only took two days, not three.
>> Angus, >> I mean, just one other thing to say. I I hear your comment, Doug, about supply, and I I agree. At the same time, if we were to increase supply that dramatically, that it would have a a real major impact on um rents, uh we'd
also see probably decreases in property values. Um, at least that's that's normally how that happens, which >> you know, I think part of the the problem here is that we it's I think it's easy to vilify developers. >> All property owners who currently own properties benefit from the high
property values from constraint supply >> and and from having zoning that restricts supply further. So we have a lot of economic data and research that supports that current homeowners benefit from the system quite well and things like moratoriums
also benefit current owners. >> No argument. I'm guilty. Are we all homeowners on this board? We don't have a renter, do we? We have at least one landlord. Maybe
two. who are who are, you know, just breaking it in. >> Guess he's a landlord. I'm a landlord. Not sure where else. >> Well, Fred sometimes is a landlord.
All right. So, maybe maybe we're at the end of that conversation for tonight. >> I think we all just needed to get some just have a 2025 vent session at the end. Doug, we might ask whether there's a
public comment on this since we've been so viciferous. >> Well, okay. I see one there is one member of the public present and and I see that let's bring over Sarah Bar. >> Hi everyone. I just um as you all know I'm turning into your number one
planning board fan and faithfully following the conversations around housing and I just really appreciate your reflection and insight. Um and one piece of information that might be uh of value to this group is uh we announced on Friday at the faculty meeting um
about the housing project that we're working on to try to understand uh workforce housing and >> Sarah you probably you probably ought to say who you work for. Sorry, I I work at Ammeris College. Um, and I'm responsible for the college's relationship with the
town, which is part of the reason why I'm coming to the planning board meeting in order to fully understand sort of the nature of the housing conversation in the town and what Ammeris College might do particularly in the area of workforce housing. Um, so uh, you know, Ammeris
College does college really well. Um, but we're new to the conversation around housing. So, we have hired U3 advisors, which is the real estate consulting firm that was referenced earlier in the meeting to help us understand um our
housing parcels or the parcels that we might be able to use for housing, the market pressures um facing our workforce and some of the possibilities for the college. So, really excited about that. Um I'm also trying to attend housing subcommittee meetings of the planning board to understand the conversation
there as well. So again, thank you all for your thoughtfulness. Um excited to partner with the town on the challenge of housing. Um and just you know looking forward to the year ahead. >> Thank you Sarah. Sarah, can I ask you a question before you leave?
>> Um >> of course. Of course. How is, you know, was it maybe a year ago when it was revealed that the new Barry Roberts project uh kind of behind the Ammerst College store
uh was going to be occupied by students and I just wondered how that is working for the college. >> Um uh it's funny. I ran into the student body president who had been locked out of the building on Saturday uh when I
was downtown. Uh so he was waiting for someone to come and let him in. Uh but uh the students seem extraordinarily happy. Um I know that uh we were having a bit of a crowding uh issue in one of the residence halls. Um so I think that
there is some relief, but the building is beautiful. um the students are happy and then you know one of the benefits to the town is you know uh we pay property tax or Barry pays property tax as the the landlord on that property. So hopefully it's one of those things
that's that's a win-win all around. Um oh the other thing that I'll add is that there has been a number of people that have seen like an increase in Ammeris College student traffic downtown. um meaning that they're shopping, they're going to events, and so hopefully um
that's also been a nice side benefit of of having them downtown. >> Great. You can ignore that end of your three minutes, but okay. Thank you. >> All right, Angus.
>> Hi everyone. Um just wanted to disclose that Ammeris College is my employer. Um, >> but also I and I have students who live in that property and they love it. Uh, they love it so much. They love um being so close to downtown and they talk a lot
about um going into downtown more than I've heard other students um talk about it. Um they've also talked about how like just nice it is compared to a lot of the other residence halls that they've lived in. Um but um and then I
was also just going to say um that uh I'm not a part of any of these conversations at Ammeris College but I know there is talk um about possibly expanding the student body which would still you know be like an extra two or 300 students maybe but um there is talk
about that. So I think Amoris College not only doing what Sarah is doing but if if they were to expand the student body would also be thinking about more housing for them. Mhm. All right. Uh time is 9:33.
Um Nate, maybe that's enough of general housing discussion tonight. >> No, that was great. Yeah, I um yeah, and like I said, I think we can focus again in January. I think there's a lot lot of topics and so right really being realistic. I think I want I do
want to be ambitious but then right and you know even if we don't get seven amendments ready in the spring but you know we have this list and let's you know maybe we set it up you know year one year two and just keep working on it. So in the past what would happen is we you know have all these ideas and
then we they just fall off the wagon right or we would just totally switch ideas and the idea of having a list is at least we can reflect back on it add things to it and try to you know build on you know what we've been doing or you know what the housing production plan says what new goals might be for the
town manager this coming year with the council but you know really trying to keep everything in context and so if for instance like North Amoris isn't successful I think we have we'll have gained a lot of experience we understand the overlay process, could we adapt it to somewhere else, right? For instance,
but like not just lose that kind of research and knowledge and, you know, can we move it and you know, adapt it somewhere else and so I feel like we haven't historically been doing that. And I'd love to say like every year, let's have a goal of getting six zoning amendments, you know, in front of
council. And so, you know, not having a dry spell where we go four years without having a zoning amendment, but let's try to keep, you know, it doesn't always have to be housing related, but you know, is it things right that make procedurally the bylaw work better? And if you know, the planning board or zoning board you have ideas, email staff
and we add it to the list and it's just things we keep keep talking about. So, I think it was a good conversation. >> All right. All right. Um, moving along. Um, we'll go back to old business up topic number
two, which was uh topics not anticipated 48 hours in advance. Did we have any Nate or Pam? Nope. Uh, similar for new business. Any unanticipated? Nope.
All right. Form ANR subdivision applications. Anything? >> Nope. uh upcoming ZBA applications, anything? >> No. >> No. Tom did mention, you know, that the reason they came with a plimary
subdivision is that there, you know, there was a proposal to have a solar installation on that property and it's it's going back to the conservation commission. It will then go to the zoning board. I think when it had gone to the zoning board of appeals a few years ago, the planning board asked to
then have a presentation to provide comments to the ZBA. So, I'm assuming that could be the same, but you know, when that when that gets to that point in the process, we'll let the board know. >> Okay. >> That's a it's a pretty big project. You know, it was I don't know if it was like
a 50 or 80 acre solar installation. So, >> okay. Upcoming SP, SPR, and SUV applications. Anything? >> Uh I mentioned the Southeast Street. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's still out there. They uh they're going through the conservation commission. Um it's something that we probably end up scheduling for uh either probably February at this point, but it would be, you know, it's a it'll be a pretty big mixeduse building uh in south in in East
Ammerst and you know, it'll probably need a number of waiverss and discussions. Um yeah. >> Okay. Planning board committee and liaison reports. Bruce, anything on PVPC?
>> Yes, we we did have a meeting. Um and uh as you know, these meetings uh typically involve some presentation of uh something that the the member towns or the are interested in this. This time it was a presentation on the Massachusetts
Integrated Land Management uh plan or they call it Mileus. But um basically it's uh the state is undertaking a a statewide uh review of the the the the
lands the land. It's land use planning statewide u looking at places where housing is citing for clean energy agriculture and and the fourth one was a
general economic benefit catch all. um this is u not going to have teeth so much the uh uh in other words it's not probably going to be an act where maybe like Oregon where we you know where the
state gets into the the planning entity business it's apparently going to be more uh uh to structure incentive to to to be a be a basis for awarding grants and so forth and depending how well a
proposal uh fits in with the states this this land management plan as it evolves. So will uh uh the uh entities that are awarding grants be more or less favorable to making the grants depending
on how it fits. So that seems to be the uh the the the teeth so to speak, but it's a um uh fairly broad um uh thing it seems to be and it's I guess
it's also intended to try and help uh inter agency coordinations at a state level. Anyway, there was a prepare there was a um that was the presentation mostly. there wasn't much other business uh that happened. Um, and when I get the
uh the the the the presentation, which typically flows, I'll um send it to you, Nate, and and probably to everybody else just for interest, but that's uh that's what was on the the agenda um last week.
>> All right. Thank you, Bruce. Um, Jesse's not here for housing and zoning subcommittee. Does anybody want to speak on his behalf? >> Uh, I think we did already. >> Okay.
All right. Angus CPAC. >> Yeah. Wow. Um, so we are almost done with the presentations. Um, we've got four more tomorrow. Four or five more tomorrow. um
been a lot uh but but also interesting really interesting um there's just an enormous amount of requests for not a ton of money. Um the challenge that I I'm curious to see how we navigate as a
committee. Um we the uh committee last year committed to a lot of uh a fair amount of bonding um which basically you know increases the amount that that the that the committee can award um but by putting debt obligations on
future CC um years. So, um, you know, we have these huge capital projects that I I I anticipate people are going to be pushing to do the same thing again.
And, you know, on the one hand, I get it. On the other hand, I'm a little um concerned because anytime that we're bonding, it it it one it means that we're paying interest to, you know, private lenders. Um which is
not, you know, the best use of town money, but um but two, it it also places burdens on future um CPAC um years. So curious to know if anyone has handled that in other situations. But um that's
the the main thing I'm going to be pushing pretty hard for the affordable housing um proposals which are um even if we fully funded all three of them would still make up I think a fourth of the available funds from that
that are we have to work with. So, it feels like a very manageable lift considering that's one of the kind of three main pillars of what the um CPA is supposed to be funding. So, we'll see if I'm successful, but that's my goal.
>> All right. Thanks. Uh Nate, anything on DRB? >> Uh yeah, no, nothing on DRB. I think they may have reviewed one other sign proposal. Um they're going to meet again in January. um you know it's been pretty quiet with
them. They will be you know looking at the design review standards. So you know maybe a combined meeting with the planning board or other boards. So you we'll we'll let you know. Um yeah and I think you know then um it'll be good to hear from them rel you know in relation
to the design review standards. I was going to say Angus for the CPA. Yeah if you want to you can talk to me. I do think yeah so you know historically the CPA the committees really tried to fund every proposal. this year it's just it'd be almost impossible and future debt obligations right really limit what how
many you know available funds in the future years to fund projects and so yeah I think that's a that's a it'll be a big discussion with the committee um I think that even next year there'll be more you know there'll be big capital requests right so how how do you you
know fund this year knowing you won't be able to do much next year but um >> go ahead Angus Yeah, if I could just ask a question of the people who have lived here longer, it feels like there is an enormous amount of deferred capital projects that this town
has been kind of that in the last year or two in last few years and and ongoing the town is facing. Is that an accurate kind of summation of of things? Well, I mean, there's been a lot of talk. I
mean, there was a huge amount of talk about the new elementary school that's coming, you know, going to be completed this summer. That was a long, you know, multi-phase forward and back before it happened. And then the second one was
the library, which, you know, finally is moving. And then the next two were the the the other two were the um the fire station and the DPW. And so those are the sort of the the big four as far as I was concerned. Um I
know there was also the track at the high school. Um but other than that, I'm not sure what you know, maybe the the the the war memorial pool building. Um, that's kind of that's pretty tired.
>> Well, I think there's a sense that Amos lags in having a senior center behind pretty much every other town around us. So, that would be a a project that's waiting to be talked about. But yeah, I
think Angus to your point it I don't know if it's you know unique to Amoris but so yeah I feel like Ammeris you know they updated in um a lot of the recreation areas right in the late 70s and up to the mid 80s and so for a time being was probably like you know Mil
River was new Grath had it was new you know um you know Plumbrook and all these places but then you know not much happened and so now all of a sudden it's 40 50 years later and it's like Okay. Well, we have to spend millions of dollars because
I don't know if the annual m if the annual operating budget included those, you know, enough capital improvements. And so, I'd say in more recent years, the town has has a, you know, a financial policy in terms of what percentage of the budget goes to capital projects, but probably historically
maybe it didn't. And so, uh, yeah, you know, so now it's like, okay, what how do we fund these things? CPA is a one because you can fund housing, recreation, open space and historic preservation and so you know the town can use it or other applicants you know
entities can apply but it's something that a lot of communities now are trying to use to pay for larger projects. So it can't be maintenance but it can be like preservation or rehabilitation or you know so yeah I I you know like the north common you know the project outside town
hall it's like well in the Kendrick Park playground is pretty new and I know at the time when this was going through review and you know at different levels you know public works were saying well you know we actually we we should we could we should be getting more money annually to maintain these and I don't
know if that's happening but it's just like you the nicer amenities you have, you have to plan for, you know, maintaining them, fixing them, whatever, as things come along. So, you know, but but I think, you know, some of it's also the communities in the northeast are old. So, you know, like a lot of communities
now are facing, you know, their wastewater treatment plants are of coming of age that they need to be updated because of new regulations. You know, their water and sewer lines in the ground are really old, right? So, it's not just Amoris, it's a lot of communities. The sidewalks are are
failing. So, it's just hard when Yeah. you finally get some numbers and it's like, "Oh, no. Oh, wow." Okay. It's I know the CPA, right? There's millions of dollars in requests, right? It's like over six million for >> And we have Yeah. for like 2.4 million
of available funds, >> right? >> Yeah. It's a lot. >> That's it. Thanks. Speaking speaking of old, I I remember the year I was on CPAC, there was a request for maintenance of some of the historic cemeteries,
you know, and it's like if you don't fix if you don't maintain that stuff, the all the text gets worn off. And I think they needed new fencing around the cemeteries. And I mean it where do you stop, you know?
All right. Uh moving along I guess u thank you Angus for that update. Time is 9:48 and 48. Yeah. Uh I really don't have a report of chair other than to say uh
wish you all a happy holiday and we'll see you next year. Uh hope you travel safely if you're traveling. >> Anything from staff Nate and Pam? Uh, no, no, no. Thanks everyone. Yeah, good holidays. It's been a great year and
we'll, you know, pick it up again in a few weeks. >> Yeah. I I'm gonna interject. One thing I, Nate, that occurred to me when people were talking about maybe trying to engage with Paul Bachelman. Um,
it might be useful to bring in the, uh, new planning director, planning and economic development director, too, just so he can hear the kinds of things that are going on or that we're talking about. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, and >> I know I mentioned that last time, but
just, you know, if we're going to talk to Paul, you know, maybe we need to have whatever his name is uh, in involved and not leave him out of the conversation. >> No. Thanks agreed and I was even thinking Dave Zomac the assistant town manager. So having you know offering
that and you know having them come to a meeting in the in next early next year. >> Okay. All right. Um that's 9:49. We are adjourned. Have a
great holiday. We'll see you in 2026. Hard to believe. >> I know. Happy new year everyone. >> Good night. Good night, Pam. >> Good night. Happy holiday. >> Same to you.
>> Thank you. See you soon.