Chapter 2 of the AR acts of 2025 extended through June 30th, 2027 provide the ability for public bodies to meet in fully remote or hybrid manner. This law allows us to continue holding remote meetings remotely as well as in person
andor in mixed mode. Uh this meeting is accessible in real time by Zoom, by phone, and as a live broadcast on Ammeris Media Channel 9 and live stream. Uh, please be advised that this meeting is being held in person and that the
remote access option is provided as a courtesy only. In the event of technology issues with remote connection, the meeting will continue in person as scheduled as long as there is a quorum of the council in the room or available by technological means to
continue the meeting. Given that we have a quorum of the council present, I'm calling the November 25th regular town coun, excuse me, special town council meeting to order at 6:31. Uh, I'll call upon each counselor and
ask them to unmute and then mute again. Uh, Patangelus, >> Anna Delin Gothier >> present. >> Councelor, >> Lynn Griemer's present. Councelor Hanick >> present. Bob Hegner is not. He is absent tonight. Councelor Lord is
>> present. >> Present. Thank you. Uh Pam Rooney >> here. >> Councelor Ryan >> present. >> Kathy Shane >> here. Andy Steinberg >> present. >> Jennifer Tob
>> present. >> Councelor Walker >> here. >> Thank you. There's no chat room for the this meeting. If you have technical issues, please make sure that you let Athena and me know and please use the raised hand function. I'm making the
following adjustments to the agenda as it was posted and those are the following on the consent agenda and later on we will not be um voting on the 2026 town council meetings calendar. And
in addition to that uh we will not be dealing with the acceptance of the public way the pale village place and also um there are no minutes to approve. I think that takes care of it for the
moment. Um with regard to announcements we have three meetings in December December 1st, 8th and 15th. They all begin at 6:30. Um, in addition to that, committees are working very hard to try to uh wrap up
what they need to do for this year and prepare their carryover memos, which need to come to the council uh preferably by December 1st, but absolutely no later than December 8th. We're going to move now to general
public comment. Uh, anyone wishing to make general public comment who is in the town room, please make sure that you have signed up with Athena at this time. If you are in the audience and I would like to point out that there's no one in the audience on Zoom,
there may be people in the audience elsewhere. Um, we will then proceed with public comment. Athena, how many people? >> One. Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay. Public comments on are on matters
within the jurisdiction of the town council. Residents are expressed are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes. The council will not engage in a dialogue or comment on a matter raised during general public comment. Public comments are not reflective of the opinion of the town
council. Vince Okconor, would you please come forward? State your name and where you live. You have three minutes. U Vincer, 175 Summer Street, apartment 12, um in district 1. Um so I'd like to
comment about the situation with the recent um tragic fire fraternity sorority park from a tenants point of view. Um in 1976
there was a fire at what was then Crown Point is now Hawkins Meadow. Um that fire uh became dangerous because there were no firewalls in the in the attics of the
building that caught fire. A gentleman who was a town media member, Ken Mazakowski, noticed the fire and helped the residents evacuate in time, including a woman named Joan Logan, who was then a one of the librarians at one
of the public elementary schools. After that fire, Mr. Mazakowski pursued the issue of the fact that many of the buildings in Ammeris had no uh attic firewalls and he um he went to the
legislature and I understand got into the building code by statute a requirement that multifamily buildings um that were um the side byside construction, the townhouse construction and so forth have firewalls that
separated each unit. Um, and so what we have now, um, and apparently in the occupied building at Fraternity Story Park, we have a number of apartments that were built before Mr. Mazakowsky's efforts bore fruit. And um, they have
they have atticss that span six to eight apartment units. And those units are um uh subject to having the same outcome as happened at Crown Point and perhaps
at Fraternity Sorority Park, which is that the fire spreads if it starts in the attic. And we've had we've had some lightning strikes in my district at J&J Farms and at the home of a former uh school committee member Tom Flitty and
his wife um and their daughter. Uh that that resulted in a complete loss of of many buildings at the farm and and the pity and silver home. So, I think it's incumbent upon us now to do a a real
inventory of the apartment buildings that predated Mr. Mazakowsky's efforts to identify buildings that might be subject to uh fire spread that is absolutely unnecessary. It just requires
firewalls >> in the attic finish. >> Yeah. And so I would urge the council to to have an inventory done with such buildings to think about developing a fund that if the apartment buildings
themselves didn't have the funds to put firewalls in their attics that the town would uh provide money in return for those units some units from those buildings be made affordable. Um, one, you would improve fire safety. Vince,
>> you need to finish up. >> Increase the amount of affordable housing. So, um, I hope that the the council will consider doing this. Um, and protecting tenants. >> Thank you for coming to us with your public comment tonight. That concludes
public comment. Uh, we're going to move on to the consent agenda. Um um the consent agenda is to move the following items and the printed motions thereafter and approve those items as a single unit. Waiver waiver of town
council rules and procedure rule 8.6 for agenda item 9A1 and approval of town manager appointment to the board of license commissioners. Is there a second? >> Second. D'Angelo. >> Thank you. Are there any questions or
comments? >> Moving to a vote. Uh, Anna Develin Gothier. >> I. >> Councelor Rete. >> I. >> L Grem. I councelor Hanniki. >> I. >> Bob Hegner. I'm sorry. Absent. Jesus. Um, councelor
Lord. >> I. >> Pam Rooney. >> Yes. >> Councelor Ryan. >> Hi. >> Kathy Shane. Yes. >> Andy Steinberg. >> Hi, >> Jennifer Todd. >> Yes. >> Councelor Walker. >> Yes. >> Pat D'Angelus.
>> Hi. >> Thank you. Next item on our agenda today is to welcome the Human Rights Commission. Uh Ronnie Parker. I believe you are presently the chair of the Human Rights Commission. I know you are presently the
chair. Um and so I'm going to ask you to come forward. >> Welcome. and I assume you're going to introduce your entire membership. >> So, hello everyone. I'm Ronnie Parker, chair of the Human Rights Commission, and I would like to invite uh the
members of the Human Rights Commission to introduce themselves. >> Okay, >> everybody is here. We can maybe pull up chairs. >> Go ahead, Liz. >> I do want to note that they have not posted a meeting. So, we they know they
cannot debate. They are here merely to Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Good evening, Liz Hagood. This is my sixth and final and I and I say final and I mean final year on the commission. I am past co-chair and um Ronnie and I
have been had been working diligently along with Philip before us um to bring together a more cohesive bylaw. >> Um hello, my name is Alex. Um I'm a sophomore at Ammerst College and um I just joined the commission in August.
I'm currently serving as Ronnie's vice chair. Um so um I'm here to support the commission and discuss our budget. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Speak into the mic please. >> All right. I'm Khan and I've been in
this uh commission HR commission the last uh two years. So um that's that's it. >> Hi, my name is Sus McCong. these hem pronouns and I've been on the commission for this past year.
>> Hi, my name uh hi my name uh is Jay Ple and I've been here for a year and I just want to mention that Philip Aila is in the back. He is the staff person to this committee. Thank you
commission. >> You're welcome to come forward if you want. You feel like a part of the commission. Um none of our work would happen without DEI and specifically without Philillip. He's the person designated to assist us and he does so.
Um I had asked each person to introduce themselves and say a little bit about uh their work with the human rights commission and I noticed everyone was reticent but can we just take a minute and say what you're doing so I don't have to say much more.
>> Okay. I would like to share something incredible that we have accomplished and that is the webinar and um we hold this webinar it's all done because the human rights work cannot happen quietly or behind closed doors. It has to be public
accessible and grounded in community. when Deborah, that's the our past um chairperson and I we began to draft this script and we focused on why the human rights commission exists to protect every resident's dignity, safety and equal
access to opportunity. And we kept returning to one truth. People in Amherst still face barriers. Some face discrimination. Some don't know where to turn. Some are afraid to speak up. Many simply don't realize that support
exists. That is why we built this webinar the way we did to educate, to empower, and to connect residents directly with the systems meant to serve them. This isn't a symbolic work. It's necessary infrastructure for a just
Amherst community. And it is critical that the town council understands this. Human right protections cannot be treated as optional or occasional. When the council listens to our recommendations, supports our initiatives, and allocates the [snorts]
resources required, the entire town becomes stronger, safer, and more equitable. So, tonight isn't just another program. It's a call to partnership and action. Thank you. Hi.
Okay. Over the last year, uh I have focused you mostly uh on the five colleges uh you know since uh I have taught in the area you know for more than a dozen years. I thought it is important to deal with the safety issues involving our
faculty, staff and students who come in from you know various parts of the world and you know under the current circumstances I think that you know there is a sense of of fear
among them and I don't think that the town has done enough to address those fears. We can try to speak to to I think some of these, you know, human rights, etc. But when it comes to uh things such as their safety, you know, I mean, how
do you stand up for a student who has a legal student visa but who may be in trouble? Okay. How do you stand up for a faculty member or a staff member in the area who is here legally, perhaps on a green card? Um
and so uh in my work I spoke uh with let's say five colleges inc. Uh I also shared some of those concerns and they agree with us that those things need to be addressed. I also spoke with uh Paul
about this uh similar issues and I took my findings as well to you know DEI. So I think somehow you know the town council needs to you know perhaps step in to see if there is some kind of of a platform that we could develop
in together with HRC um so that we could speak with um at least the three schools in the town. Um I think it's it's an important step uh you know to build those kinds of
bridges. Thank you. I really have to ask the chair to try to keep people on time. Thank you. >> Um, hi. So, I joined the human rights commission uh because I really believe our community uh deserves a government that affirms human rights and and fights to protect them. Um, so over this past
year um when so many of our neighbors have have really felt great uncertainty about their rights and their their future. Um, I helped distribute um with thanks to the League of Women Voters for providing them um hundreds of know your rights red cards to downtown businesses
and um local hospitals. And I think this is a really small small step, but it's also a very important tool. Um and I also can't talk about human rights without talking about housing in a town where nearly 56% of households um rent. Um, I partnered with Allegra Clark from
the Amoris Municipal Affordable Housing Trust to compile and share on the town's resource on the town's website resources on on tenants rights. Um, however, I think the moments that that stayed with me the most this past year have really been supporting the commission's annual
youth hero awards and the town's first ever global village festival, which which really remind me that that our community strength comes from the from its diversity from the young people who are who are demonstrating acts of service and the many cultures that that make Amherst what it is today. And so,
moving forward, I hope the Human Rights Commission can can deepen our collaboration with the town council and the town manager. Thank you. Hello. My Hello, my name is Milan uh Clark. I am
uh new to the council as of this year. I haven't had an opportunity yet to get too involved in the work that we do. However, I had the opportunity and privilege of editing the video that we
created. So, I uh got to spend hours at Amoris Media um clipping bits and pieces and adding all kinds of uh different fascinating um little uh tidbits to our
video. But it was a great experience because it is a really nice summary of what human rights means, what it like what can be um how it can be employed to uh others in the town and also how
actual um some of the companies in town too and some of the businesses can come to the human rights commission as well. So I did actually appreciate very much the messaging of the video as I got to watch it about 50 times. Thank you.
>> Hi, this is Liz again and as I've said, I've been on the commission for the last six years, five years. This is my sixth year. Um, thank you. I joined the commission in the height of um all kinds of unrest across the
country and even in our town. I wanted to be a voice for those who felt like they did not have a voice. Um, again, as um my brother here said or my son, whichever way you want to put it, um my greatest joy is the um Youth Hero Awards
and in and strengthening our youth so that they have a voice. We've had some hiccups in our town. Um July 5th is one of them. and some of the work that the CSSJC and the CSWG before them have done
um is sometimes get swept under the rug or not um necessarily taken seriously and I want to make sure that those kinds of works our kinds of works uh Tom's kinds of works continue to grow and flourish. Um, we are a diverse community and
sometimes the people of this town don't know that and I'm one of the people that would like to remind them of that every time there is an issue so that we can continue to work together and strengthen our towns, our council, um, our schools and making sure that everybody has has
human rights. One of my um, passions is again affordable housing. I think it's atro atrocious that our state does not have a a gap uh a cap on how much um
housing can go up and that folks that are single, don't get in trouble, work for the town, grew up in the town, live in the town, do community service in the town, can't afford to live in the town. I think that's wrong. Um, so I think that's all I'm going to say for now and
I'm going to turn it back over to our chair so we can continue with our discussion on our upcoming bylaw changes. >> So I don't have a lot to say. I hope you've read the report. You see that we've been out and about doing a lot of
stuff. Um, there's one thing that wasn't mentioned that I do want to mention and that is uh the work on coalition building that we've been doing. We called together a number of organizations working with immigrants in and around this area and the result of
that um I won't go into all the details is that people were concerned about what they could do to help and this was the constant question that was coming up and so we uh in collaboration with several
other organizations Lucay ACLU Massachusetts Pioneer Valley Workers Association the UU society, peace development fund, League of Women Voters, Jewish Activists for Immigration Justice, all came together and did bits
and pieces of the work to hold a workshop that was led by Luc um 125 people came. I think we stopped counting at that number. the demand for information, not only to feel safe, but for most of
Ammeris residents who are white and not a threat really to feel that they want to help and to do something is really qu has been quite compelling to me and very moving and it was good to have legal
clear advice about what one should and should not do if you want to help. Often you think you're helping and you're really hurting the person. So that was one of the big things we did and I look forward to seeing what will happen with it in the future because we didn't do
this. It was done by all these other organizations. Everyone took a piece peace development fund registered the people online. Jewish activists came and signed them in when they came. The Unitarian Society
gave their space. There was no money exchanged. It was just all of us committed doing what parts we could do. So, it was very powerful. Anyway, um that's all I want to say on that and we can move right unless there are questions about our report, we can move
right to the bylaws. Okay. Um yeah, so uh I want to thank the town manager for pulling together this memo that uh makes everything very concise and has pulled together some of
the discussions we've had with KP Law as well. And in the current uh stage, we have no objection to any of it except one piece which is on page five. If you look at the part that says
procedures, all the changes are agreeable to us. Many were made by KP Law. There's a part here that says um we shall select from its members a chair, vice chair, and clerk. I would just like to add a chair,
vice chair or co-chairs, and a clerk. So, I am chair only because we couldn't find another [laughter] co-chair. Uh but it is a lot of work and I'd like to leave the option to have co-chairs in the future but beyond that it looks fine
to me. Um so if you have any questions we can answer them. >> Did you want to add anything? Okay. The floor is open for questions. >> The only reason why I pulled up the chair next to hers is because I was co-chair at the time we adopted this and I wasn't part of all the meetings that
we had. >> Got it. And actually to give you a sense of timing, Philillip was a co-chair when this work started right before he Yes, he was. And then he came back and joined us on staff. Um, all
right. Are there questions from the council Hanukkah? >> Yeah. Um, thank you for this and I always am excited to see updates to bylaws because we sometimes think we pass them and then we never revisit them and and all. So, thank you for revisiting them. I do have a couple of
questions um related to the update and just I apologize my ignorance as to why parts of this are in a bylaw instead of just a charge. So, I'm going to start with that one, which is when I read this bylaw, both the current one and and the one
you're proposing, um, it looks it sounds like much of it is really just a committee charge. What does a committee do? Not really a law as we think of bylaws to be. Um, and so could you talk, you know, one one question is, can you
explain to me why the language of essentially a committee charge should be in the bylaw instead of just a committee charge, which I will say is a lot easier to amend if if things get amended there um than in a bylaw. And then the other
question I had relates to one thing that appears to be removed from the bylaw that to me is the heart of a law. As counselors, we're legislators. The current bylaw has section B is what I'm
going to refer to. And section B says, "No person shall be denied any rights guaranteed pursuant to local, commonwealth, or federal law on the basis of and then it goes on." And I noticed you included that language in the proposed bylaw as part of the
mission I believe but no as part of the purpose. But in the current bylaw that standalone section is really the enforcement sort of what the bylaw is prohibiting. But in the draft, by including it just in the mission and
purpose section, it removes that here's what the bylaw is prohibiting section completely. Um, and I don't know whether you realized that or not. Um, and so was that an intention to remove sort of the enforcement of here's what we're
prohibiting from the bylaw in this draft? I have to say with regard to your questions, um, we had nothing to do with all of that. We're interested in the overall content of the bylaw, but you'll have to really have a conversation with
KP Law about why things went from one section to another section. And to be honest, I don't think we know the legal implications of one or the other. And I'll invite if there's a lawyer in our
group. Um yeah, so our conversations with KP Law and Liz was there also. Um really were were focused on what the thing said and not on which part of the bylaw uh it was. And the certainly we
don't we don't claim to know the meanings of having it in one place versus another. So I would say when it goes to wherever it's going next um as I think the town manager recommended here that uh you should meet with the town
attorney and I and I think you will get an answer for that. The only thing I would ask about that is that when you do have those discussions to invite us or let us know so that it can be it can happen smoothly and one time and we don't have more backups.
>> Okay. The I am going to make a motion but uh so why don't I go ahead and do that and that is to refer the proposed human rights commission bylaw to the governance organization and legislation committee with a report to the town
council by yeah >> Anna an update it can be reported a carryover >> the update will likely be in the carryover memo as go
slammed until the end of this term. That is nothing to do with the importance of this bylaw. It's truly just our agendas are getting rocked right now. >> So, it's December 15th that we'll have an update and it will probably be in a carryover memo. Um is um the motion has
been made. Is there a second? >> Ryan second. >> Thank you. Are there any other questions or comments? Um car uh councelor Hanaki, you have your hand up still. >> Yeah. Um, I actually had a potential change to this referral >> motion, but now I'm confused as to what
we're doing cuz it was written as a report only by December 15th, which is literally like two and a half weeks away. Um, well, Anna, don't get concerned here. Um, normally our referrals in circumstances like this are report and
recommendation, >> right? um without the recommendation, what are we intending the committee report on? Um if we're not going to have them make a recommendation with regard to a change in a bylaw. Um question
number one, and if we add the recommendation in, which I I think is logical, we should ask them to report and recommend. Um we should change the date to like March or April, like to give a reasonable date.
Anna, do you want to speak to how you want to amend this? >> Yeah, I mean, I I think one of my questions was why not give that later date and have it be a report and recommendation. Um, realistically, I don't think that go will get to discuss
this and I can tell you that's what my report back will say. So, if you'd everyone would like to save me the time of writing that out on a piece of paper and and say that this is going to be handled by the next iteration of G and it will be in our carryover memo. will be in G and G will take it up early on
in the next term. That would be my personal recommendation because otherwise I don't it it feels >> Do you want to do you want to suggest a date? >> How about Oh gosh, I just had the calendar up and and now I don't have it
up anymore. Hang on one second. >> So March 15. I mean the committee will take some time to get organized. Um we assume this would be at the top of their agenda but we can't say that for sure. assume that Jo is jammed. >> No, I'm talking about the next G
>> will likely still also be jammed. Um, >> I think >> Yeah, >> we're going to we're getting as much done as we can, but everybody else is finishing up their year. I'm looking at the calendar. Hang on, please. Um, can we say March report and recommendation by March 23rd? >> Yes. Thank you.
>> So, >> so I'm sorry. Let me just get the motion out and on the table. Okay. So the motion there was a friendly amendment to say to refer the proposed human rights commission bylaw to the governance organization legislation committee with
a report and recommendations to the town council by March 23rd 2025 >> 26 >> 26 I'm sorry yes of course >> and the secretary accepts that >> and secondary accepts that
okay any other comments from the council Yes, I'm sorry. Um, Rea, I'm sorry. Councilor, >> I believe uh you had something to say previously. So, >> my question was just clarification about
what we're agreeing to. Uh, so by March 23rd, we will have a recommendation from the go about voting on the bylaws. The council will have for the go will have forwarded to the council a
recommendation as to what whether the bylaw they should suggest what they should adopt. Okay. And at that time the council will take it up. It will take two readings because it has is a bylaw. So it'll have first and second reading
and and you would be invited to go meetings for conversations with them. But most of the work will take place within goo and include the town attorney. >> So by the 23rd it will come to the town council but will not necessarily be
voted on possibly for another period of time. Is that correct? >> Usually when it comes to the council if it is in fact ready by the 23rd they can also say they want an extension. I want to be honest about that. Uh so when it comes to the council usually we try to
put it on an agenda as fast as we can and then do a first and second reading. It's at the second reading that there's a vote. >> Thank you. Are there questions? >> I don't have a question. I just have a concern and I understand that
everybody's slammed and there's so much work that everybody has to do, but this is something that we've been working on for over a year. So, with all due respect, um I would really like something to happen before I leave in June because
this is, you know, I I'd like for us to be going forward to have clarity on our charge. >> So, um councelor Etay, you had a your hand up. >> Yeah, this was a question for the
commission. I was wondering if there was any discussion about what human rights are because what I see here is human rights are rights people have as human beings which is less of a definition and more of a
description and I was wondering if this is if there were any concerns expressed or if there was any conversation about this particular section. Actually there was a lot of conversation because three years ago basically it was described as
gender rights and we all felt that that was a different thing from human rights and so we searched and found text in UN documents. Um, but really what we ended up is with
what KP Law came up with, which we found to be pretty good, but they came up with it based on uh their knowledge of other human rights commissions in other towns in Massachusetts, and we found it also to be quite comprehensive and acceptable. So, we took what they had.
>> Okay. Uh Kathy Shane. >> Uh um thank you all for coming and for uh the passion which you brought to all of us. Um I have questions that I don't need answered now, but it would be great I think in a short memo if you gave them
to go. I'm not sure which of the changes you're looking for are the critical ones. And what Mandy asked about the current bylaw, where is it insufficient? So, where is there a piece that just needs to be added to the bylaw? And then I would say the same thing with the
charge. Where is there part of the charge that is either not clear or doesn't go far enough? because I think the more you could indicate so to the extent there's editing you know of words uh that people don't miss what what the
intent was you know where where where you had specific concerns because something was missing that you felt in the bylaw that needed you needed so you could take action or something that was missing or not worded well in your
charge that's I was just not sure where those changes I can find the word differences, but I don't know which are critical. Then the last one um is I did look up our our bylaw to see your role. We put on the books a wage theft bylaw
and a responsible employer bylaw that works off of enforcement of the wage and benefit laws of the state where complaints can come. And right now the human rights commission doesn't have an explicit role in that although the human director human rights director does. So
I didn't know whether um you would at least want to know because the way it works is you wait for the attorney general to find wrongdoing but a complaint can come to the town and then can be referred up and be acted on. So you might just want to look at those and
see. And then my final question is and again I don't need answers tonight just to be thinking about it is in to some level some of the things that you oversee are often concerns that CSSJC
has the uh committee on social justice and and so where you see working together where you see an overlap where um just some thoughts on that would be useful. you know, are you just parallel committees or are you overlapping
committees in some way? >> One thing I would say very clearly about the difference between us and CSSJC, I think that we're totally different. We are both groups that are concerned with social justice, but we're not interested in the operations of the social safety
networks that the town has provided. So, we're not interested in what Crest is doing. not not interested. But our mission is really about ensuring that residents of Ammerst or people in Ammerst uh can be assured that their
human rights will be respected and that's a broad um that's a broad range of rights which we tried to define in this bylaw so people understand that. Um yeah, I don't think we're I think we're
quite different except at the very highest level where we're talk we're all talking about social justice and you know individual dignity and things of that sort. >> Thank you Patangelos. Um, I want to go back to what Mandy said
about the charge the or and the bylaw because I think that you've done an enormous amount of really excellent work on what the commission should be, who you are, what you're doing. And so the going back to B of the current bylaw,
that's where you're saying no person shall be denied rights um guaranteed pursuant to local, commonwealth or federal law. That's the meat of what the bylaw is. And then there is the meat of the committee about how you're going to
help us ensure. And so I think that and that bi that charge or that um fee is missing in what you've given us. So it becomes that's why I think Mandy was so focused there about it becomes an
enlarged an important charge for the commission but it's almost like what is the charge that go has what is the charge for CSSJC versus this bylaw. but is the meat of what you want to say and this is simple
but it's strong I think that so I and if KP law took that out I really don't understand why so that's a question we can ask in go >> he took out all kinds of strange things but this is why I referred to Paul's uh
note because some of that has come back in and it's a little bit >> better now so that it looks okay actually but we went back and forth so much that that's why I'm saying invite us to the discussion so that we can you know we can talk through whatever
disagreements there are then and there and get it straightened out. >> I want to thank you for your work. Seriously, thank you and get the chart get get the bylaw strong. [laughter] >> Thank you Pat. Uh Jennifer.
>> Um yes, I also wanted to thank the commission um you know for for all the work. Um it was excellent and we appreciate the presentation today. Just I went on the website to um to find the video that you were talking about and I didn't see it there. Is it available on
the website? >> So our video was just completed. >> Oh, okay. >> Hey, we just got an email about it about an hour or two ago. So, some of us have not even seen the finished product yet, but um we put a lot of work into it and
every person around me has been a part of the video and it's just to let the town's folks know that we are here. If they have a question, they can um find us to ask the question and we can direct them to where they need to go, which is
the meat of the video because a lot of people don't know that they can ask questions. They don't know that they can even come to town council or offer a public comment. And we want them to know that we're here to help facilitate um any issues that they may have that
infringe upon their rights. >> We we will ask Philip to advance us the link to the video. >> I would say one thing. The video is being held for show for release I guess is the word on um December 10th for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
So I would welcome you to come to that reading and afterwards with displays from the middle school uh students uh we will show the video for the first time. >> Could we just make sure we have the details about that event for the release? Yes. >> Thank you so much.
>> Do we know where the video will live? >> It will live in the this world of internet. You can >> but I mean I mean on the it'll be on the [clears throat] HRC website or >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. The HRC website, but we plan to distribute it to through
the chamber so the businesses could look at it and other organizations. Council Ryan, you had your hand up earlier. >> It was also done by Ammeris Media, so it's going to leave in Ammeris Media Archives as well. >> Okay, great. >> Council Ryan, you had your hand up
earlier. You have it. Okay. Are there any other questions from the council? He said a few things about >> Yeah. So you >> 50 times he watched it. >> It took a whole year to do and I haven't seen it yet. It did come into our emails just
>> great. Well, we look forward to your event. We thank you for being here. We thank you for the work that you do and um enjoy your Yes. >> Sorry. I just in closing wanted to say how important this work is now. It's not just because we're doing it, but because
we're in a particular political climate where a lot of our constituents are very, very afraid. And I think that we have a very big obligation despite all the other important things that happen to ensure that people who live here feel
safe and have the means to find the resources that the state and others have made available to us and to them and to feel sort of cared for and not isolated and alone. And there's a lot of that
that people are afraid and I I believe that it's a big role of leadership and that's you all to really uh assure people that Ammerst is with them. I don't know how all you do it but it
needs to happen in multiple ways and multiple contexts and I hope you'll do that and thank you for your commitment. I just wanted to add that I'm sure all of you all know and I'm I'm don't know how many other people out in the towns
know that we don't get anything from being on this committee. Um we're doing this because we care, we love, we respect. And so, um, by all of us to be doing this work, especially my girl here
who's a college student full-time, to take her time out to be here to be vice chair and to want to do this work, I think is remarkable and I appreciate of all the people that I've had to work with um had the pleasure to work with and been blessed to work with over the
years and even when we have our differences on approach, we still have all the same goal. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for being here. >> We have to vote. I'm sorry. >> We need to vote. I'm sorry. You can stay for the vote. This is a referral. Thank
you. All right. Councelor Ete. We're moving to the vote. The votes to refer. >> I. >> Lyn Gremer is an I. Councelor Hani. >> I. >> Bob Heg. Oh, it's absent. Uh, councelor Lord. >> I. >> Pam Rooney.
>> Yes. >> Councelor Ryan. Hi >> Kathy Shane. >> Yes. >> Andy Steinberg. >> Hi >> Jennifer Tob. >> Yes. >> Councelor Walker. >> Yes. >> Pat D'Angelus. >> Hi. >> Anna Delin Gothier. >> Hi.
>> It's unanimous. And with one absent. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Paul. Do we uh do we know whether or not Chief Ting will be able to join us now or shall we move on to the rest of our agenda? >> He's he's logging in now.
>> Okay. Great. Thank you. So this is technically a second reading of the public urination and defecation bylaw. The motion uh to adopt the bylaw as it is in the packet was never made because
that would have been the first reading. Since then, we have received an amendment to that and I believe it's actually a substitution to that. And so, um, Athena, does it defy the issue of
first and second reading if we don't go to the original motion? >> I think the appropriate process would put be to put the original motion on the floor and then amendment would be offered. Yeah, I I'm sitting there going this is a second reading. It has to be second reading of the original motion. Thank you. Okay, so the I'm going to
read the motion, seek a second, and then we'll take amendments to to adopt public urination and defecation bylaw as shown on page 13 of the motion sheet. Is there a second? >> Ryan second. >> Thank you. And now we're going to move
to amendments. And I believe Athena, you have the amendment and it was in the packet. You might want to show it on the screen. Thank you. Uh, am I calling on Pat? >> Okay. Council is doing it. Um,
>> did this together? >> Yeah. [laughter] uh move to amend the motion by um substituting the following language for the original motion. Uh public urination and defecation general bylaw penalties
for violating the public urination and defecation bylaw. Criminal enforcement $300 fine. Noncriminal disposition for first violation warning notice and mandatory 5 hours community service enforcement by police officers. Noncriminal disposition for second
violation, $100 penalty enforcement by police officers. Noncriminal disposition for third and subsequent violations, $300 penalty enforcement by police officers. A prohibition and exceptions. It shall be unlawful for any person to
urinate or defecate in or in view of a public place other than one set aside and designated for that particular purpose. Persons who violate this bylaw due to verified medical conditions shall be exempt from the enforcement provisions of this bylaw. B. Public place defined. Any place where the
conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed or could be viewed by others in a is a public place. Such areas shall include but not be limited to any street, alley, sidewalk, parking lot, park, playground, schoolyard, cemetery, floor of any building except in such
place that has been designated a restroom. Okay. Is there a second to the amendment? >> Second, D'Angelus. >> Thank you. >> Point of order. >> Yes. >> Just a very small point, but I believe you want enforcement by police officers
uh inserted in the text, assuming that's the text we're talking about. >> So, right now, >> what I read, >> that is what she read. So, >> it is what I read. Yes. >> If the clerk could just insert that um under the first noncriminal disposition for first violation. Thank you very much.
>> I Thank you. Um Okay. Welcome, Chief. >> Thank you. >> Always nice to see you. >> Appreciate it. Likewise. >> Um so, uh we have before us the original bylaw. Well, we have before us the
bylaw, the KP law recommended and that came to the council for first reading last week. The council, various counselors expressed concern. They felt that the initial bylaw had more strength to it. Two counselors, namely councelor Hani and D'Angelus have taken this and
proposed an amendment which we you just heard and is on the screen. That motion for an amendment has been made and seconded. Are there I guess we would like to hear from you as the chief of the force that has to enforce this and
uh provide us with any insight into um the amendment or uh the original. Uh so this was introduced um really as a a means for to find a lesser type of
enforcement for a quality of life issue that that we commonly see in the town of um we receive plenty of complaints from residents and the majority of our instances come from uh neighborhood parties and certainly from the center of
town. uh our officers will encounter folks coming from coming to and from the bars and and using the sidewalks or bushes in in public view to urinate. Um so really this was just a provision because over the years it was decided
that the only options for our officers were either a warning or a criminal enforcement action. >> Uh this kind of u closes that gap to give officers an option of a lesser Um,
so really that's what it's born at >> uh just to uh alleviate quality of blood to control that. Um, in terms of how it's meed out, uh, the criminal enforcement listed as a $300 fine. I personally find that to be uh,
acceptable simply because we have other quality of life town bylaws that kind of pertain in a similar way. We have um, open container bylaw. We have a uh, keg bylaw. uh nuisance house bylaw and across the board the fine for that is
$300. Um I'm not opposed to necessarily really a tiered response. Uh it's just kind of difficult to be able to manage and and honestly there the instances of using this wouldn't be that prevalent. It just gives it's an additional tool
>> for our officers. Um, in regards to the language uh that's being proposed in comparison to what KP Law proposed, I don't really have any objections for either. I think uh it covers um what I'm looking for >> and um yeah, I'm fine with it.
>> Okay. So, I want to go to Councelor Hani and then also to uh Pat D'Angelos as a sponsors for this amendment. But I also want to recognize I believe councelor Hani, you were the person that first brought the bylaw to us a while back. Okay. And it so why don't we start with
you and then councelor um D'Angelus. >> So I'll seed most of it to to councelor D'Angelus. But I just want to say the body A and B should match what TSO sent to KP Law before KP Law came back.
That's what I tried to do. and the data block with the tiered vi tiered violation options um was drafted and taken from some other section of our general bylaws and then added with the mandatory um community service but that
was at the request of Pat so she can talk more about that. Um personally I like this language better. It I think closer matches what I was going for in my original proposal than what KP Law suggested. >> Pat. >> Yeah. I just want to say that both
councelor Lord and myself had trouble with the broad um very open bylaw wording and then uh the idea that it was $300 no matter what. It only cost $250
to shoot a gun in the center of town. You might want to think about that. But anyway, all joking aside, um I know that in the intent of this was actually to protect some of these students who
are peeing publicly because we don't want them to have u a criminal record for lascivious or lewd behavior or something like that could really mark them for their their lifetime. So, I support some bylaw, but the idea that
$300 is not something that every student every particularly every homeless person has at the ready to keep themselves from getting a criminal uh record because if they have to if they're charged criminally because they didn't pay the
fine, >> Yeah. then they're marked. Um, and so it does mean that there's a a little extra work here for the police department. Um, but maybe we can figure out what the channels would be. If I pee in the bush
and I get caught, and I haven't done it before or been caught before, then I could do community service. And for me it feels like I want to see the people who are doing this really cleaning something up and doing you know doing
something to restore what they kind of u missed >> and there are there are vehicles for that. So for example certainly there's an appeal process and nevertheless we also have C4RJ. What that is is it's a type of reformative um action that we
have where we can take a look at each case and make a decision. Hey, does this really warrant uh what the fine is? Does this you know what is the exact situation with the party that's involved? So there are avenues certainly to expune that or to eliminate that fee
and certainly uh our officers you know as you know they have a latitude of discretion and certainly with unhoused population um they would recognize that they probably can't pay that fine and certainly I don't think the courts would hold it
towards them as well understanding that they can't pay that fine. So that's not really the spirit of what I'm looking for in terms of quality of life issue. Certainly in every circumstance that an officer encounters, they have to take all of these into consideration, who the
person is that's committing the act. What is the circumstance, you know, and and why are they doing what they're doing? Um, and certainly we have a lot of checks and balances within our police department. I know there was a concern. Um, I've heard in the past that that there's a concern if there's a rogue
officer for example, a rogue officer that's going after people. So, the way it works in our police department, every fine, every report goes through a checks and balances. So, it has to be submitted through a shift supervisor. The shift supervisor needs to approve that go that
kicks up to a lieutenant. From there, it kicks up to the detective bureau and ultimately through the command staff. So there's several layers before any type of fine of that magnitude and any type of report that has to go to court gets
processed through. So what I'm trying to elude is it will definitely be caught at some point through those checks and balances that this is not applicable if somebody issued a $300 violation towards somebody who's unhoused and can't afford
it. Not every student can afford it either. Um, >> this is true. >> And so, so to me, are you opposed to having this intermediary step before there is any fine? >> I'm not opposed to it. I just don't
prefer it. [laughter] >> Okay. >> A soul. That was politically good answer. Uh, Kathy Shane Pat, was there anything else? >> How about you, Mandy Joe? Anything else? Okay. Uh Kathy Shane, you have your hand up.
>> Um I'm going to ask a question that reflects my ignorance of our bylaws. We seem to always have criminal enforcement and I don't know why. Why can't we just have noncriminal disposition? Um is there something that says we
always have to have criminal? That's a question. Um because I don't think this rises in my mind to criminal. And I agree with Pat about shooting a gun and a few of the other things. Um, I'm not sure 300's the right number. I don't
know what the right number is. And I guess you can't do a fine under being a public nuisance. I looked under our public nuisance and it doesn't say urinate and defecate. You know, where public nuisance has a set of steps. I do
like the step up. I don't see why the first violation has five hours of community service. Again, I think to the extent we put something on the books, we should have some intent to enforce it. And it feels like a lot of work to have
someone that you pick up at 3 in the morning for whatever they're doing on a sidewalk. Figure out what that community service is. I guess it could be clean the sidewalk the next day, you know, wash the sidewalk. So I so I have the first question is do we have to have criminal enforcement at all? Can we just
do noncriminal and the second is 300 the right and then there's community service. >> Okay. A point of clarification. Are you suggesting that in the title where it says criminal enforcement it would say noncriminal enforcement? >> Exa Exactly.
>> I'm sorry Mandy. >> She would her suggestion would be to delete the entire first line. >> I would just delete it. >> Right. I would I would delete it unless we have to make it clear that there isn't you know Lynn's wording would make it clear that we had the option of that. So I don't know whether we have to have
it. >> Is there any objection to that from the sponsors? >> I think we need to hear for this >> here and then give us some time l >> So if I could just kind of u provide some information. So this type of
offense is already on the books uh in state law. So, it's already a criminal offense. >> Okay. So, it would fall under a charge of disorderly, uh, which is a criminal offense. >> This this meaning what we're writing a bullet for is already a criminal
offense. >> It is. It is. So, if somebody is urinating in public, um, there's different levels. So, there's ludent lascivious behavior and that's a different statute. That's of one of a sexual nature. But if it was somebody who was just purely urinating in public,
that would fall under the disorderly conduct statute. And so that is an arrestable offense. It is a criminal offense. And as of now, that's the tool that we have to use for that particular offense. >> Does that come with a fine or is that just you? >> No, there's no fine.
>> Okay. >> It's just criminal. And to answer the question in regards to mandatory 5 hours community, I don't think we can impose that. I don't I don't think we have the I don't think we have the authority to force somebody to five hours of
mandatory community service. Community service is usually imposed from a judge through the courts. >> Yeah. >> Your microphone, please. >> Microphone. I was just saying when I was one of the
times I was arrested and [laughter] uh um I chose community service and so >> Okay. So that would have been court order from from a jury. >> Right. Right. >> So we wouldn't have that authority, >> right, >> to be able to impose that or to enforce it.
>> Okay. Um uh Andy, your hand is up next. >> Yes. Um, I guess I'm concerned about this tiered approach that's being recommended in the motion
the [clears throat] to amend my experience um in working with the uh is when I was a slug board member and I was an active member on the uh campus and community coalition
regarding alcohol problems. U there students um look at these fines for the most part. those who um are going to be
parters and are going to be out um engaged in the kind of activity that usually leads to this, which is a somebody who regularly uh goes to bars or is involved in parties where there's fair amount of expense in drinking. That
a fine, even an open container bylaw, can sometimes be just a cost of having fun. and it doesn't really serve a purpose um uh to do less because you want to
make it strong enough that at least it rings a bell and it gets people seriously thinking about it. I think that if we the other problem that exists is that um somebody has to be seen by an
officer in order to be arrest uh given a citation. Even the chances of that happening once are questionable. The chances of there being that same individual being seen a second or a
third time is almost non-existent. And uh it's just a practical matter that you're talking about the same individual happened to being in the circumstances being seen by an officer engaged in that
activity. Frequently that does not happen. We're trying to get a message out to the um community to to the student community that is engaged to this kind of behavior. And if you don't
have enough of of a uh penalty involved, I don't think it's going to discourage behavior. So, I think that what you're doing if you if you vote for the amendment as it's stated with the tiered
approach is to essentially make this a meaningless um action because it's not something that's ever going to get to the point of u being enforced with the level of um
sting for the person for the people who are engaged in this behavior to actually have a hope of changing that behavior. Um so u I think that a well-meaning intended
uh tiered approach is really making this a meaningless bylaw. >> Thank you. Uh, Anna, >> I uh spoke in opposition to the version that was before us at our last meeting
and uh had to bite my tongue when this was at go from speaking strongly in opposition to it because the way that that one sentence bylaw was drafted was um I I couldn't have supported it even with the good intention behind it. I want to thank Pat and Mandy for taking
on a reddrafting that includes what Mandy had worked on originally. Uh I will support this version of the bylaw. Um I appreciate it's this conversation has been really interesting. I appreciated the inclusion of community service and the intent behind it. Um but
it sounds like that's not something that we are able to utilize as an enforcement measure. Uh I am curious about how we might go about changing that rule in the future. uh if there is kind of who's holding that string and how we might
pull at it a little bit. Um because I do think that there are benefits to trying to find um consequences that are a bit more restorative versus simply monetary fines. Uh and I know that there are a million other questions that would go
along with that in terms of how it would work, but that is a question for another time. I do want to note with this officers still have the discretion to give only a verbal warning and I imagine that will happen often. Uh if we cannot impose community service I would support
simply removing that from the first violation and uh if it's possible to maintain the tiered system I'd like to do that. I'm curious, Chief Ting, if you feel that the logistics of a tiered system would discourage its use. Um, or if it's processed the same way and it
wouldn't necessarily change anything, whether in terms of time and effort to impose it, whether it's the first, second, or third violation. Um, so that's question one. I disagree with Andy that a tiered approach would be a meaningless action. And even if it is, I don't see a problem with that. If someone gets their first warning, their
fir or their first violation, they get their written notice, um, and they don't do it again, great, then we've solved that, right? So, I don't, uh, I don't see an issue if if folks are not, um, coming back for a second and third time, but I would love to hear from Chief Ting
whether or not that would be a nuisance to you all in a way that would likely discourage its use. So I think the question that would be raised from our officers is why would this be a tier defense and all the other quality of life town bylaws are not. So something
such as an open container or a keg violation or a nuisance bylaw across the board it's been $300 and it's really meant as a measure or tools to try and control quality of life issues. Um, so
the question would probably be, well, why is this home? >> Can I ask a followup? >> Tiered in such a way. Sure. >> What would you think if I said, okay, well, maybe we should shift all of them to be a tiered uh tiered system like this >> and and that would certainly be within
your purview. >> I mean, that's not what I'm asking, though. I I'm curious like is that if they all I understand that we one being separate from the rest is not like synchrony would be ideal here. Um but if we if we were to try to change the
system of how we impose fines to try to make it a bit more graduated instead of just a a single blunt instrument um but try to have that um that that uh tiered approach I'm curious your thoughts on that
generally. >> I think in general be sending a message that that the quality of life issues in town are not as important anymore. Thank you, >> Councelor Lord. >> Thank you. Um, this local law to address
the issue regarding a state law with harsh and permanent consequences, I have been vocally opposed to um this bylaw and the potential of more criminalization. Um, and my inclination was, well, let's take it to the state to repeal this law as opposed to adding another
restriction. My biggest concern has been the harm that it could potentially cause populations other than the intended, like the unhoused or homeless or certain people with medical issues and other issues, especially while we don't have um public restrooms available. But
having thought about it, I realized greater harm could be experienced in not having that state law. A heartbreaking and devastating fact is that sexual predators are far too present and have protections at the highest level of our government. Even locally, one of my
children's elementary teachers and high school teachers have been arrested for child pornography. And currently, a college professor is under investigation. So to protect our children, our elders, our people with disabilities, our immigrants, our um and people who are incarcerated in each
other, I'm going to vote in support of this bylaw because unfortunately I believe that the predators would use the repeal of the state public urination law as a way to cause harm. So, I want to thank you Mandy Joe and Chief Tang for creating this bylaw as a way to address
the public urination issue without the larger criminal arresting consequences that the state law carries. I do believe in the peer tiered approach and I do want you know for the future. Thank you Anna for bringing up the restorative
lens as a way that we could have an impact and maybe expand learning and being in community in different ways. I'm wondering if the other quality of life bylaws also have a criminal thing like because to me that makes it a little different. It's the noise bylaw.
Here's your $300 thing, but we're not there's not also the state law that would criminalize it. So to me, this feels like all quality of life is important, but this has a different
intention behind it and impact. But um and I also understand Chief Ting when you said it's the judge that can do the community service. So I do hope in the future maybe I don't know work with judges, find ways to do different levels of but I I do support the tiered. I'm sorry it's more work. I know it seems
like it might be counterintuitive but um and it's not about the college students in my mind the tiering even though it is but it's about it's about anybody who can't afford to pay the 300. And I think I hear that you're saying you would take that to the court and deal with the judge. So, thank you,
>> Chief Ching. >> If I could say, no, certainly, you know, we we we definitely believe in restorative justice. Um, again, we are partners with the C4RJ program. That's exactly what it's designed for, for circumstances where folks may not be
able to adhere to whatever the consequences are for whatever loss. Um to kind of answer your question in terms of nuisance uh type of bylaws that we have an open container is also a criminal offense that is an arrestable
offense. Um the keg bylaw is not the nuisance violation is not uh but certainly open containers are and noise complaints are also arrestable and those are also state law charges as well.
>> Thank you. Okay, you're welcome. >> Um, I'm sorry, Councelor Ryan. >> So, I really want to echo uh Councelor Steinberg's comment. I think at this point I can't support this because it does seem like it's a complete waste of
time. Um, I understand the concerns, but having a tiered system doesn't really seem to have any impact. Um, so what's the point of this? Um it's a quality of life issue. It's it's been
described quite clearly what the problem is. Um and this is not going to address it. So um if we're going to keep the language as it is with this tiered system where the first violation is a warning notice, um I don't think most
officers probably won't even bother. Um they'll just, you know, I mean they already do that. They probably just give a warning. So, and the idea that somehow you're going to have a second or third offense. I mean, again, as councelor Steinberg pointed out, the odds of that are
beyond astronomical. So, the point is the quality of life issue, it's supposed to sting, right? This is inappropriate behavior. Um, and it's it's not, you know, it's like you're speeding and you say, "Well, can you make it $50 instead of 300? I can't afford it." Well, don't
speed. Um, so there's a point to the fine. Um, 300 is not a magical number. It could be 150, 200, but at the moment, the way it's written, I can't support it. On a totally different note, and a totally different reason not to support this is there's no public restroom
downtown. Now, we hope that's going to change in the next few months, but that could be a year from now. Who knows? We in the hands of the state plumbing board. And so right now, another reason to vote against this is that there's no
place for anybody to go. >> Well, they should pee in the alley, >> whatever. So anyway, >> um, thank you, uh, Councelor Hanicki. Um, our bylaw does have our general bylaws right now do have some items that do not
have criminal disposition and only have noncriminal disposition. Many of them are not quality of life issues. They are more related to um enforcement by other areas than police departments, I would say. Um, I I wasn't
quick enough to make that full list, but our bylaw also has many tiered noncriminal and sometimes tiered criminal disposition sections. The items that are tiered from my list are styrofoam, plastic bag ban, so the ban on styrofoam
use in town, the plastic bag ban in town, street numbering, if you don't have your house numbered properly, is a tiered offense. False alarms is criminal tiered offense for doing false fire alarms going off regularly. We start
with a warning that actually tears up to I think it was eight, seven or eight offenses in a year before you get to the maximum fine. Our wage and tip theft bylaw is tiered and starts with a
warning if an employer has violated not paying someone. We don't start with a fine. We start with a warning. Yet, this council didn't think it was useless to pass that bylaw. Storm water management and elicit discharge and
detection. If our older counselors remember the ones that have served long enough, the IDE one, they all start with warnings. Even if you're discharging poison into our waterways, it starts with a warning. That doesn't make that
bylaw any more useless as from what of I'm hearing that this one would make if we started with a warning. Um, it's always possible for an officer to give a warning. I guess that doesn't necessarily then show up as a warning if
they look it up. I don't know how it's tracked. So, I could be completely wrong, Chief Ting, on that. But if we tear it here, we are formalizing the system and saying, "Hey, this isn't right and you are going
to get a fine next time." Um, and the bylaw says you will. And I think back to not just my own college days, but my interactions when I've been stopped by police officers for speeding and other
things. Just the fact that I had to talk to a police officer and my dad was a cop, so I I wasn't like unus to talking to police officers. In and of itself was
a very big, hey, this is a big warning. You don't need a fine to be told this is behavior that is unacceptable. A warning can be sufficient. So to hear
people say the only way anyone will change their behavior is by a monetary fine. I don't think actually goes with what our town operates under. I have in seven
years on this council heard our police officers many times say we try not to fine people because we want them to correct the behavior. If the only way is a fine maybe that is the way to do it but we hear a lot about noise complaints
on weekends where we've instituted other systems where the warning is the correction. I don't understand why the warning here is so much of a problem. I support the warning. I'd like to move this along, but I in doing so I want to
ask one clarification and then make two suggestions for um the uh people that have proposed this. Is a warning notice a written notice? >> No, it's not. >> Okay. So therefore, it does not go on the record. >> Does not.
>> Okay. So then I want to make three changes. >> If I could clarify one thing. So we have a really strong collaboration with the university >> uh with their dean of students. >> So when there's an infraction >> Can you speak closer to the mic? >> Oh my apologies. So we have a very strong collaboration with the university
and their dean of students. When there's some type of enforcement action, we will report that to their dean of students and therefore the students will also have sanctions with the university. Um, and in many instances, students are a
lot more afraid of that than being arrested and having to face court because their academic career is in jeopardy to an extent. And so if we issue a verbal warning, nothing happens.
Um, if there's a fine associated with it or an arrest, then that does get reported. That's the current system in place. So the three changes that I would like to suggest is that we strike the word
criminal enforcement colon $300 fine. The second is to add the words written warning and strike the words notice and mandatory 5-hour community service. Those are it's combination of three.
It's a written warning. >> So, are you making a motion? >> Uh, I can do it as a motion to amend the amendment, but or I can ask for a friendly amendment. Can I ask for clarification? >> Sure.
on the um written warning, a warning where there's Lynn asked about um warning notices and whether they're written or recorded anywhere and you
said they are not and therefore the university doesn't know. Um, is that when there's no allowance in the bylaw for a warning notice or is that when there is allowance for the bylaw? So, if this
bylaw said warning notice and mandatory 5 hours of community service, say, would that then create the notice on its own to the university because that is literally the fine for the first violation?
>> Probably not. simply because let let me explain. Well, first of all, the the 5-hour mandatory community service, we couldn't do that. Um, in terms of a written warning, >> I don't think officers would do it if they have to issue a written warning.
They they just wouldn't do it. We used to do that with noise complaints and with it's it's just it creates far too much paperwork that goes nowhere um because there's no there's no sanctions with the university. So it wouldn't go with you.
>> Can Can I say that my my son got a written warning for speeding and it did the trick, >> right? So that's mandated by the >> on the record and thank you >> and and that one's a little bit
different simply because the state used to track those and three three written warnings there were consequences >> but that was too difficult for the state to enforce and mandate. So they got rid of that. >> So the written warnings are purely for
documentation purposes only at this point. What I was trying to create was if we're going to have a three- tiered approach, the first tier has to be on the record. And if it's not on the record, you never know if you get to the second tier. >> Correct.
>> So, that's my that was my goal. >> Yeah. So, how do you create a first tier on the record if you don't want that first tier to come with a financial penalty? >> So, we could I mean, potentially we could come up with a written document. I
just don't believe it will be utilized simply because we've gone away from other types. For example, noise complaints. You used to be able to uh issue a written warning. There are no consequences with it. There's nothing. It didn't really do
anything. So, the department had gone away from that. And this would be a similar situation. Now, we could document it through our CAT system, our computer aided dispatch. It just creates a little bit more work. >> And you're saying police would be tend
not to do that. >> Correct. >> If it had a $50 fine with it, would they do it? >> Probably not. >> I'm sorry. >> And again, again, and that's why I pose that question to uh councelor Gothier is
that, >> you know, something like that, the question would be, well, why is this one different? Right. I hear you. Okay. Well, definitely I want to remove the criminal enforcement three $300 fine. I also want
to remove the andmandatory fivehour community service since we can't enforce it, but I'm now stuck. So, >> um, >> Lyn, can I ask you a question? Yeah. >> Why do you want to get rid of criminal enforcement? There is a noncriminal uh
enforcement. So, why do >> then why have the criminal enforcement Why why even had that sentence if it's all noncriminal? >> No, it isn't. >> So, there's an option for the police officers depending on that was.
>> Fine. Then leave it. I now that I understand that they could have the criminal direct criminal enforcement. Fine. But there's no sense putting the mandatory five hour community service since we can't enforce it. Okay. Um,
Anna, you have your hand up. >> Um, going way back a little bit, George, I'd be inclined to agree with you about the lack of a bathroom downtown if this were not already a state law. That can be violated with immense repercussion comparatively. Um, I think it's an
important thing to note and I think that it's a good reminder that that needs to be a priority. But this already exists, right? this is already something that folks can get in in trouble for and so in my mind we're lessening uh lessening the potential
negative impacts of that um until we have that bathroom downtown. I I want to note first that there's plenty of research out there in the world that folks could go look up which shows that it's not that what prevents people from
committing a crime is the certainty of being caught, not the fear of being punished or the severity of the punishment. So this is really once again making sure that if someone is caught, we have a mechanism other than those state harsh state consequences.
I'm a little concerned that it feels like there's a certain dollar amount where our officers would feel inclined to follow through on a on a policy. Uh that's concerning to me, frankly. I think that the fact that we can put a
price tag on when it's worth it to write a citation means we're doing something wrong. So that's the conversation I'd rather have as to h how is it that we can make sure that we're not creating a a dollar pulling a dollar
amount out of nowhere. Um, I know it's consistent 300 would be consistent with our other bylaws, but that is kind of a random amount that might actually some of the some of the research is showing that uh harsher fines actually because they can lead to mispayments can lead to
more breaking of the law because folks then miss the the payments of it. Right. Um, I'm rambling a little, but I I am more concerned at this point about what seems to be the threshold for when it's worth it to write a citation. I like the idea
of having a a written warning in there and I and having it logged in the system so that we can have a second violation that's noted in that way. Uh, I do have questions on how that would work. I guess what what I would say in regards to that is just from my own personal
experience and what I've seen from our officers. Um, in general, our officers like to understand the cause and the reason behind a law and where they would impose some type of consequence. So, they would understand that there's a
quality of life issue that is really at the forefront of being in a college community. This is a complaint that's constantly heard from residents um throughout town. So even if there wasn't a even if there was a bathroom that was located at Kendrick Place, you know,
that doesn't mean that there's something on Beluretown Road. um salt, >> right? >> Um this is something that's townwide and the the fine, for example, for an open container used to be $50. And at some point, I wasn't privy to all of those
changes. And it jumped from $50 directly to $300. And I I recall as a young officer thinking, "Holy cow, that is a huge increase, you know, from $50 to 300." And when we started to enforce
that, initially it was a sticker shock to those that we were enforcing it to. Nowadays, they don't care in essence. They take the fine and they find a way to pay it. I'm talking about open containers. Um,
so I think that they've adjusted to the particular cost. And to be honest with you, inflation these these days, it's it's kind of applicable anyways. But nevertheless, um, I've seen I've seen a certain segment of community, they get
used to it, they get conditioned to it, and that's this is kind of the purpose. If they know that this is out there, that word will spread. Um, when we start enforcing open containers, within the first two weeks, for example, when
school starts, after that two weeks of that enforcement, it disappears >> because where it spreads. >> Hey, you can't have an open container out here. And that's that's the intent of this so where it can spread and to try and control that.
>> Okay. Uh Andy Steinberg, >> think you're kind of getting at the questions I was going to ask Keith, which is what is the minimum amount to make an effective statute or effective bylaw? And you know, it still seems to
me that um while $300 seems like a lot. U it's just, you know, just knowing students and how much they spend $300 on various things. Um yeah, I can't I I recognize that there's some students
that $300 is a lot of money, but I suspect that those are the students who are not engaging in this behavior. um because uh they're just privileged to be in school and getting their education
and that's why they're here. Um so the the the students who are most likely to be involved with people who are I would call the heavy parters and um I think that you what you're trying
to do is get a message across to them and you have to make it serious enough of a fine in order to have that happen. And um I also get into the I respect the
chief's uh point that how why will the police officers feel that it is a serious offense if it doesn't have a significant penalty to it to be equivalent to things
like the open container bylaw which apparently has been a very effective um deter deterrent and is pro and is probably seen much more often by an officer. Just somebody coming down the street holding an open container is
probably much more frequently seen than somebody actually um late at night uh urinating in somebody's backyard or Kendrick Park or wherever it might be. >> Thank you. Um, councelor Hani.
>> Um, so Pat and I have not accepted those friendly amendments yet, >> right? Um, I think I want to make a motion to amend. The motion to amend. And I'm going to say why I want to do it that way.
Um, because I think the council needs clarity on how many counselors support one version or the other. And the only way we can do that is through a motion to amend. The motion to amend. And if I'm correct, Robert's rules allows
exactly one motion to amend on a motion to amend. So I think I can do it this way. Um, >> so I can't speak for Pat, but I'm going to say no to accepting
Well, no. I'm I'm going to start with a yes to it. I don't know. Are you okay either way with that up there? So, so my motion to amend is going to be an amendment to
delete everything from non the first noncriminal disposition colon. This is the easiest way to do it, Athena. So, starting at the phrase for the first violation, start deleting from that phrase. Nope. include the phrase for the
first violation and delete all all the way up to violations right before $300 penalty such that if the motion to amend the amendment passes it would literally read that [laughter] to clarify. Do we want a tiered system
or not? >> Okay. So is is the motion to amend the amendment that >> motion has been made to amend the amendment. Is there a second? Ryan second. >> Okay. So, let's move to a Did you want
to say anything further on this one, Councelor Hani? Um, I don't even know whether I'm going to vote for it or not, but [laughter] um I guess I would like to before we vote on this in some sense hear
from the chief in any of these, you know, this is this is illuminating to me for not just this bylaw but all the other ones. How many bylaws are we not enforcing because you your officers aren't willing
to write a ticket for less than $300? Like like I I guess it's a it's a brash way of saying it, but at what point are your officers willing to write a ticket? At what dollar amount are they for any offense? Or does it depend on what they consider the seriousness of the offense?
Like if we tiered this to 100 and then 300 or 50 then 300 at at what point would the taring in your mind be enough for the first penalty to be written? >> Right. I guess the answer to that question is again um understand the the
psyche of a police officer. They want to understand you know the purpose of what they're what they're doing. So as a whole if we're talking about in the town of Ammerst we're talking about complaints of quality of life issues. So, they are going to include um open
containers, uh nuisance house bylaw, again, keg violation, and all of those across the board are 300. So, they're going to look at this and they're going to ask that question. Well, why is this one tiered? Is this less important than a noise complaint, somebody outside in
the public urinating in comparison to somebody making too much noise. Somebody making too much noise can be fined $300 and placed under arrest. So why is this one of a lesser offense? And if it's confusing to them and they don't understand the purpose of it, they
probably won't do it is what I'm trying to get at. You know, then they will stick to either just giving them a warning or potentially summoning them to court or arrest. And I can't speak for every officer. Mhm. >> I am just trying to insert myself into
that into that uh mindset and wonder well >> you know is this important to the town or not in terms of quality of life issues >> and it and to be honest with you it does it does complicate things. >> Of course it can be done but it does make things a little complex
>> on our end trying to keep track of first, second and third offense. Uh, >> this has been a very good conversation. I'm going to ask that we move the vote on the amendment to the amendment. >> It's been made and seconded. George, did
you have some final comment? >> Well, I just wanted to speak to the amendment to the amendment. Um, Mandy herself is not sure she wants to vote for it. So, I assume other colleagues might be thinking, what do I want to do with this? And I just wanted again to make the point we've just heard from the chief. Um how important is it to us that
this is a quality of life issue. Um and if it is, he has suggested pretty clearly that this is the best way to address it. It gives his officers the flexibility that he's seeking with a noncriminal disposition but also makes it clear that we the council take this
seriously and this issue of quality of life and this is the way the best to address it. um he speaks from years of experience as a patrol officer and now as chief. Um so that weighs a lot for me as well. Um so I think the issue for us
is do we see this as an important quality of life issue and if we do this does seem to be the best way to address it. If we feel that it's not that important as a quality of life issue then we probably should just leave things as they are. >> Got it. Thank you. Councelor uh Lord,
>> I just have a question about this amendment to the amendment and what we're actually voting on. I'm looking at the screen. When we vote, it's basically the amendment to the amendment is taking away the tearing. Is that correct? Or could somebody help? >> Okay. Thank you. >> Great.
>> The amendment to the amendment is as it appears on the screen and excludes those lines that have been struck out. Okay. I'm going to start with councelor ete. If you vote for this, you're voting for
the amendment to the amendment. >> If you vote for this, you're voting for a non-tiered system. >> That yes, you are. That is correct. >> Okay. So, that's an I. >> Lyn Griezmer is an I. Councelor Hanaki. I think I'm an I
reluctantly. Councelor Lord. >> Nay. >> Pam Rooney. >> Yes. >> Councelor Ryan. >> Hi. >> Kathy Shane. >> No.
>> Andy Steinberg. I >> Jennifer Tob. >> Yes. >> Councelor Walker. >> No. >> Pat D'Angelus. >> No. >> Anna Delin Gothier. >> Nay. >> The motion passes. One, two, three,
four, five, six, seven in favor and five opposed and one absent. And that means we really don't return to the next motion. Yes. The original motion. Now we have to go back to the original motion.
>> We're now voting on the motion to amend the substitute. >> Now we are voting on what is on the screen. Okay. We have removed things. There is no longer a tiered system. Thank you for that clarification. We are voting on the original motion. Okay. The
original amendment. The original amendment. The vote to amend. Okay. >> Uh I'm going to begin with Lyn Griezmer is an I. >> Councelor Hanaki. I >> councelor Lord. >> I
>> Pam Bernie. >> Yes. >> Councelor Ryan. >> I >> Kathy Shane. >> Excuse me, but am I voting for what I see on the screen? >> Yes. >> No. Um, Andy Steinberg.
>> Hi. >> Uh, Jennifer Tob. >> Yes. >> Councelor Walker. >> No. >> I'm sorry. Councelor Walker. >> Okay. Pat D'Angelus. >> No.
On Devon Gothier. I >> and councilor >> I. >> The motion passes. >> President Greer, >> I'm sorry. >> I was confused and I'd like to change my vote. >> Okay. >> I should have asked the question.
>> I changed it to nay, please. >> Okay. Okay. The motion passes with eight people in favor and four opposed and one absent.
Okay. >> Do we need a final vote then? >> Yes, you need a final motion to adopt. >> Okay. >> And that motion's made >> that motion was made earlier. Now the motion that's on the floor is to adopt the bylaw as it is seen here >> as amended. Okay. All right.
>> So this is the motion to adopt as amended. Uh we're starting with councelor Hani >> I. >> Councelor Lord I
Okay. Pam Rooney. >> Yes. Councelor Ryan. >> Hi. >> Kathy Shane, >> no. >> Andy Steinberg, >> hi. >> Jennifer Tob, >> yes. >> Councelor Walker, >> yes.
>> Patel, >> no. >> Anna Delin Gothier, >> I. >> Councilor, >> I. >> Lyn Griemer is an I. The motion passes, 10 in favor, two opposed, and one
absent. Thank you. This has been a very educational discussion for all of us. >> Thank you for the invitation. I appreciate it. >> You may be hearing from >> Thank you. >> anytime. My pleasure.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us in person person as well. We're going to take a break. We're going to reconvene at 8:25. We're doing this transportation and parking and the control of public ways.
We're doing the amendments and then that's it. >> First reading. So you can Just be careful out there. As you return, please put your picture back on. Thank you. Okay, as you return, please turn on your
videos. All right. Uh, tonight we are taking up the long awaited transportation and parking commission committee charge and subsequently changes that would have to be made to the town policy regarding the
control and regulation of the public way. This was something that um the town manager proposed and then it was referred to TSO. TSO has spent an enormous amount of time on it and then
it did come to go. So I'm going to start with um it and there is no motion tonight. This is a first reading for both even though a first reading wouldn't be required for some of it but we're doing it that way.
Okay. So, um, I'm going to call first on Andy Steinberg, chair of TSO. I >> have to ask u did Athena leave or because um there was something she was
going to put on the screen to help with the presentation. And uh >> is she did she leave or does she coming? Okay, we we'll wait. Why don't you um
>> um do you want to start? >> Yeah, let me let me just start it. Um and uh here she is anyway. So, we're okay. What I'm going to have what Athena is going to put on the screen in a moment um is a version that is really
unchanged of the amended policy on public ways which is a critical piece to what we're doing are proposing to do and um it has certain highlighted sections so I want
to go through it um but in the highlights The purpose of that is is to really focus on what the role is of the um commission itself. The um but as a reminder and town manager can
fill fill in on this. The original proposal was because the current system we have for dealing with a lot of the public way issues is extraordinarily inefficient
and um it's inefficient when it it becomes a proposal from DPW or um usually it's DPW so might as well just leave it at that and then it's referred to TSO.
TSO then has goes through a process of uh consulting the transportation advisory committee and um now what is known as the um commission on um people
with disabilities um it used to be the disability access advisory committee. we would uh end up having presentations being made by DPW to three different bodies um and uh if
we needed um the police department's view on it uh to get them involved in one, two or three different settings and it was extraordinarily costly process in
staff time and uh what the goal of the commission proposal um initially was focused very much on trying to make for a more efficient system.
Um we um at TSO um first uh spent some time trying to understand what it was that the commission would be doing and um what should be assigned to the commission and
what should not which we got us very much into looking at the public waste policy to frame that discussion because that is a council um enacted policy. Um the uh sequence of what happened um
just very quickly was that we consulted with um Northampton and u the uh council there and they have a transportation parking commission. Um, I ended up
getting a meeting with a member of the who's a council or member of the transportation and parking commission there and their director of the department of u public works which is the equivalent position to uh Guilford
boring superintendent of public works in Ammerst and uh they explained how the commission works and why it works well. Ultimately what they were saying is a couple things that affected us very much
and got us thinking about it a lot. One was that u the uh commission there actually does not make decisions uh any final decisions. And um the reason it
doesn't make any final decision is it's making recommendations either to the mayor who's the equivalent in our form of government, the town manager or to um the uh to the council depending upon
what the issue is. And so uh and the other thing is is that they have a very strong system where if somebody in a neighborhood is concerned that they would like to have
some speed um control or some other thing in that has to do with improving what they believe is that what neighborhood needs in public way changes that uh it becomes a single system
instead of the person having to call the police department, public works, their counselors and town manager to figure out who to start. They have a very clear system of where to start. So that uh and and the last thing I should say about
Northampton is that they very much impressed us in the importance of having counselors on the commission and uh so that was in the end influenced us greatly in our way of approaching it. Um
though we were trying to stay with uh we are Amoris, we are not Northampton and uh make it appropriate to us which is why we ended up deciding that the key document really was the u current policy
on public ways and to use that as the guide for what we're doing and that's why I wanted to start with that and what you see on the screen as I said a moment ago is the original policy as amended as
we're proposing to amend it uh without the um strikes and changes but um what the first sections are that you're seeing on the screen and I think it goes through maybe D
and so you could scroll down a little bit as I just mentioned These are matters that um actually have to do with proposals by KP Law because KP Law made a lot of
recommendations for change and some are um ended up being adopted. others. Uh we had a meeting with uh Lauren Goldberg at KP Law and sort of tried to make u put it
all together in a way that really worked for everyone and uh both what she would advise and what we thought was appropriate as a committee and u that's
what is the final document but the first sections u that are there are not really changes what in the uh policy but they're improvements in how the policy
is stated because the original policy was probably drafted without uh review by town attorney and now it has been and these are changes that come through the town attorneys.
Um then scrolling down to the first yellow section the what I did with the where where I have highlighted in yellow are the areas where it actually defines what are
things that are um going to involve the commission in some way or another. And uh the reason is is that we have a system right now where we made a decision some years ago that many things
would be referred to the town manager and the town manager um would uh report to us which he does through the um his regular reports. As you know, at the end, uh he'll say there'll be sections
where um he's indicating whether he's made any uh decisions that are um on sections of the public ways policy that were delegated to him because we asked to have regular reports and he is doing
that. Those things are not changed. We did talk about that and u the town manager indicated that he saw no reason to change it. We were asking if it would lighten his load to uh make uh to change
those policies those portions of the policy and uh the response that we got was no I don't spend much time on it. Angela takes care of it um and reports to me and I make
the final decision but I don't spend time uh talking to the people who are making a request to have for example reservation of parking places for a short period of time for a specific
purpose like moving I'm moving my business and I need to get my moving truck in front of my business for one day. That does not have, you know, he doesn't meet with those people.
That isn't part of what he does. So, you get down to the sections that are um where there's actually something involved in that first one had to do with um permanent parking changes. And this is not the temporary parking
changes, but it's permanent parking changes. And uh so what we have in there is that u there's uh that that's something that in the end the town council is retaining its authority to
make the final decision but um is delegating to the TPC u the uh responsibility to hold a public meeting on the request and to make a recommendation to the council on that
request and uh a a recommendation that would be in writing and uh would uh be equivalent to what now comes as a TSO recommendation but done in a much more efficient manner. Going down to the next
one. Um it is similar in that what it is having to do with is um closures of um the uh
law roads and sidewalks. And um what I would want to say about that is is that um short-term closures we would leave with the town manager as it is now. Um as you
see in B it says town council delegates to the town manager authority to review and act on temporary road or sidewalk closures uh not subject to 3A. 3A is when it's being done for a specific purpose like construction or
some other uh type of event like that. Um but for um things that are currently assigned to the council, they remain assigned to the council. It's a question of um the recommendation coming from TPC
instead of TSO and uh that bring in in the way that um it has been written all along is that there should be consultation with the town engineer who's an employee of the U
superintendent of public works, fire chief, town manager, police chief just to make sure that they uh their voices being heard and uh we left that in there uh because even though it's sort of
duplicative in some ways of the what the TPC is, we were trying to adhere to that. The big section is the third section and then I'll conclude that and uh [clears throat] see if we can there any questions uh for the committee or
friend committee members have anything else I want to say. Um this is probably the largest section the most complicated section and I guess that there are three things that I would point out. One is utility hearings or what we sometimes
call poll hearings. And we had a lot of discussion about that and we ultimately decided that poll hearings take a very small amount of time for the council but they have proven to be very important to
the council. We have spent um some time, sometimes they go very quickly and sometimes counselors ask a lot of deep questions about why this isn't being buried, how many polls do we need, um things that have been very important to
to to the council. So, we ultimately decided that this was one segment that um should remain with the council in its entirety, including holding hearings. We thought for a little bit about having
the TPC hold the hearings and then uh have it have the TPC report to the council, have the council make the decision. But in the end that seemed like uh not a wise choice because um as
I said it takes very little time in most situations where there are a lot of questions. It's important to have the person here who can answer the questions at the council level and uh the most efficient way to deal with it was to
leave that section with the council. Um the second is that there are some types of things that have to do with the public way that are um not as uh not of a monumental nature and I'll put
describe monumental in a moment. Um, and those it seemed like it was appropriate to have the TPC just go ahead and make a decision, make a recommendation to the town manager and um, but have the town
manager uh, ultimately have to make the decision because um, expenditure of funds is an important is necessary usually to do things like put in more speed bumps and uh that it it
didn't it seemed that it needed to be a final decision that had uh a financial consequence because of the financial consequence that needed to be made by the town manager. And then there was the
question about major roadway and sidewalk redesigns, intersection controls, traffic lights, roundabouts, um and uh other major um things having to do with the uh with with the public
way. And in that situation, um, it belongs to the council and, uh, we thought that the TPC should be making a complete recommendation after holding a hearing and doing all of the work that it's doing, but then ultimately make its
recommendation to the council and that the final decision belonged in the council. So, with that um summary, I guess what I'd like to do is uh ask uh my vice chair of the um PSO,
uh councelor Ryan if he has anything that he wants to add to what I just said or if there are other members of the committee and see if there are any questions because I think that what you're looking at is really the core of the policy and if you're not um uh
satisfied side with this section or have serious questions about this section, I think that it's important to get those out. It's almost more important the committee charge will flow from that. So, >> councelor Ryan, >> I really have nothing to add. I think uh
councelor Steinberg has presented this quite well. I really would like to hear from my colleagues um questions, concerns they might have about this. >> Okay, Pam, I'm ready. >> Thank you. I h I do have some questions. Um I like the fact that I like the
charge because I have long wanted a body that could um be the point person, if you will, for collecting complaints, such things as traffic safety issues and and tracking
decisions made about them and reporting back to people who have filed complaints. I think that's an important missing piece right now. Um I also like that the council can come back and share I mean can modify
in the policy. However, I'm I am now a little bit more confused than I was before in the section that's highlighted on our screen is exactly what I want to talk about. Um what what really is the T is the is the
commission given to to work on in in item two G12 it says um delegates the authority to review and authorize permanent changes other than those in the under the
paragraph above under the above paragraph. The under under the above paragraph which is I is all the things that I think a commission should look at. What is item number two doing to remove
those elements from their responsibility? >> I think it's poorly worded. That's what I'm trying to say. How do you really want to word it? Andy, please go ahead. Yeah, I think the question of the wording I'll leave aside for a second
because uh if it's poorly worded, we ought to have a discussion about that between first and second reading to see if it can um that's I think why you do two readings. Um the the reference to the prior paragraph is paragraph one. So
what we're doing is that we were taking everything that was in uh GI which is really um pretty much um again from the current um version that's in effect now of the public waste policy.
Um and we're splitting it into um for that piece of it. Um >> thank you. So what you're saying hearings and everything else that's in I. >> Wonderful. That's exactly how I would
like to read it, but it didn't read that way. Okay. Thank you. If you have changes that you would like to suggest to um >> maybe instead of saying the above paragraph, we could say in section GI,
>> please take the item and make sure you send those changes with the exact wording you would like to see to the chair and vice chair of TSO. That's councelor >> um Steinberg and Ryan. Okay. Um Kathy
am asked uh my one of my wording questions. The way G is written, the bold part, these are requests. So requests come to them. Could that be a request? Is that a resident request? Is
that also a DPW request for a change? Is a question number one. Question number two is um that I think this is meant to replace TAC. Um so I'll reword that as a question. Is it replacing the
transportation advisory commission? And third, TAC uh somewhat less successfully than I would have hoped has developed policies, handbooks, guide books, standards. I just went back to try to
see what it's been looking at. Back in 2015, it had something on guides to a transportation byways. What What does a crosswalk look like? What does traffic calming look like? And by the way, Andy, your pen on traffic calming uh does not
have street bumps in it, street humps. It left it out. They're just gone. But it had it had policies on um if you wanted to do traffic coming, we need to have criteria on when and where you
would do it so that when residents came and asked for it, it would fit into a plan. And that's what people have been asking for at JCPC. Is the idea that this commission would do some of that planning or will we still be left with each group comes in
and says, "My street looks like this. Can I have a ste street hump?" Because what we'd asked for JCPC was to come up with a side streets that would need traffic calming because they're abiding street loops. Where would be the priority speed humps? How
would we put them in? And we never got it. And so people come and ask for this and then they're put into a d loop of we don't have a plan so you can't have yours. Um and it keeps coming back. So, it's a question of would they be developing policies and criteria
or would that still be left to some other um entity where TAC was developing those. We just never listened to them, you know, or we never enacted what. So, they have a complete streets, they have a sidewalk,
they have crosswalks, all crosswalks should have lighting, for example, and they give little designs. So they produce all these documents and I'm not sure whether this would take over all that work. So Lynn, you asked for specific changes, but it's not clear to
me whether this is just responding to requests or whether it's generating design. It there it feels like there's something missing if we're replacing one of the reasons there's this loop where people keep going around without getting answers. And I'll stop there, Andy,
because it's a lot because I think the the core part that's the most interesting in this to me is everything that could be under G. And I would make it its own entity, not G. I would make it number four because this is where
it's design and what new things are coming in and where it's coming in and how you get them done. All the others are more I want this place for a year, for five months, farmers market, those kinds of things at that first level. So, it's this GR that's the bigger idea
section on design of our streets and our sidewalks. >> Thank you, Andy. Did you want to respond? >> You know, I think that they're good points. U the uh I appreciate your reading of it. We did ask the question
about speed humps and um it was uh uh could you put the uh put it back up on the screen? The uh section that uh uh we had there um has uh specific language
about um traffic calming I believe is the word. And when we asked um uh Guilford Boring about the uh traffic calming measures,
what does that mean? Um he put in, you know, he said that that's where speed humps would come in. Um so it probably could be inserted in that parentheses. It would totally be consistent with what
the committee's discussion is. uh the uh question that you um asked about requests. Unfortunately, that's piece that was not in the original public ways policy. So,
it it's actually placed in the uh committee charge and um there's a whole there's a section in the committee charge that refers to requests and where they could come from and it's pretty much um anybody who's
making a request that it would u that the TPC would be responsible for setting up a system to receive and consider those requests. Um and uh going back to Northampton
example for a moment, that's exactly what they have. They have a uh system which uh their transportation and parking commission established that is a uh on the website is essentially a form
that people fill out submit and uh they get a response from uh the chair of the committee and uh chair of the committee lets them know that it's been received will be considered gives them an idea of
um sort of conveys that it's not going to be immediate. Um lets them know when it's coming up. Um maintains communication um as necessary. Um and everything is
tracked to make sure that there's a disposition to every um one that is submitted. So, um the assumption was is that that was covered by the uh committee charge. Um yes to replacing
TAC um in trying to make this a more efficient system. The idea of having um some citizen members who have some interest or expertise in the area is part of the committee charge. Um
and uh I think that that and the the sector the the suggestions about um clarifying the wording. I think that u we're getting very much to the end of
the council term, but I think we might have time to work on a possible amendment for that um point. I think that what we were trying to do was adhere to the current policy and uh this
is a section G that is in the current policy and we're trying to make amendments to G that would serve that purpose. Um it might be that there's a better way to do that. Um so I think
that um that those are most of the questions you asked. Well, Lyn, can I follow up because I just read the charge. >> My question is about developing a criteria so that when these requests come in, there's a response to it. Right
now, that's that's the missing link here to me, the big missing link. Um, uh, so how would you decide whether a speed pump goes here or whether a blinking light goes here or whether the speed limit should be decreased? TAC was
looking at a complete streets. They had a pedestrian and bicycle plan. There was this so if that goes away where where is that thinking about what it is we want to have so that when requests come in and I did look at Northampton so when a
request comes in they have a policy on street comming and so it goes through some somebody worked it out. I don't know who worked it out and whether their commission did it or their DPW did it or someone else. So who who would do that
development and I I'm I'm if if I'm sound like a broken wheel because that was my sense of when when people would come for small changes on their streets, our response for small capital changes was we can't
do oneoffs. We can't just do you because there's others like you. we need to have criteria and we would ask for that and then a year later another set of streets would come in and ask for changes and they would be told we don't have a system yet so where is that going to is
I'm not saying the wording of yours I'm just asking should we delegate that to this commission and if not where does it go okay thank you councelor Hani I appreciate everything Kathy said
because I have very similar concerns but on slightly different subject matters but the exact same concerns. Um, I don't see anywhere in the charge that
the TPC would oversee paving plans, sidewalk creation plans, traffic calming plans, any of that. And we've had a real problem with the decisions on what streets get paved. Yet, it's not in here
at all to have anyone oversee what the DPW seen with that. And I would have thought that would be a big part of what the TPC might do as we've been trying in manager policies to have someone do um
over the course of the last couple of years. So I I see that as a big failure of or missing element of the charge. Um, this section that's up here. Um, I had the same concerns as as
Pamarini did on item G1, GI2, G12. Um, very vague. Um, I think it needs to reference G11 specifically so it's not as vague, but um,
street lighting seems to be, no one's going to be surprised by this with my 2 and 1/2 years now, three-year plan on trying to get a street lighting policy through this council that got stuck in TSO. Yet,
it's included here for permanent changes to the public way. Number one, it's the only thing that's not really an actual change per se related to transportation directly um or parking directly. Um it's
not referenced at all in the charge um as to suggestions and requests regarding transportation and parking matters. Um receive suggestions. It's not light. Street lighting is not a transportation or parking matter per se,
but it's in the policy, but not in the charge. And what part of street lighting requests would they be doing? Where we put street lights, specific street lights on streets, or an entire townwide policy, the color of the street lights,
the height of it, the downward facing. What are we talking about when we reference street lighting in this policy on the public way? Are we taking away the council's entire ability to regulate street lighting and sending it to TPC? Um, or just portions of it? Right now,
we have a council motion that's been sitting with the manager to bring back a policy on street lighting to the council to adopt. It's been with the manager for two years now. Um, so I don't know what's going on with
street lighting there. um and what what were you intended that? But then I'm also concerned with the language of um the the descriptions of traffic calming
measures that are in here. Okay. RFBs, feedback signs, even raised crosswalks, and potentially speed humps and bumps seem to all fit in there. But given the controversy around many roundabouts and even splitter
islands potentially, those seem more like major roadway and sidewalk redesigns that are in G2, little two, um, yet are referenced in G1. So, how does someone make a
determination whether it's a major sidewalk or roadway redesign or simply a minor traffic calming measure? because I think the residents of Heatherstone Road and Echo Hill would say that mini roundabout was a major
roadway redesign, not a simply a small minor traffic calming measure. So, I don't understand how we'd make the difference between those two. Um, another example is what we just did at
Pot Wine on 116. Was that con that was really just sidewalks and street splitters, crosswalks and street splitters. Is that a major redesign or is that just a traffic calming measure? I think that's a major redesign, but under this it sounds like it would fall
under the TPC. So, I'm unclear where that split is. Um, and finally, if street lighting is to stay in this, I do think the charge that talks about residents with interests or backgrounds
related to X, Y, and Z needs to include backgrounds that include public health and health problems related to artificial light at night because another yet another article in the New
York Times today talked about health problems related related to artificial light at night and trying to limit that. And if we're going to hand those requirements over and those decisions over to the TPC, you need an expert or someone with experience related to those
health issues, not just someone that's focused solely on car travel or pedestrian travel. >> Thank you. Um I I first of all I appreciate the various comments and top on my mind was
is this the group that would have dealt with Heatherstone? Okay. And I it's not clear. Okay. Um so that's one piece from the very beginning. However, I want to
say I have not agreed with the two counselors on this. And the reason I've not agreed is because I want to go back to the fact that when we first created the ECAC and we put counselors on it, we ran into nothing but trouble and then we finally
took them off ECAC. And I really question again when you have a counselor on a committee that's recommending to the council other than a council committee, what have you
set up? And so I That has been a question on my mind. I know Northampton has done it. I know they feel strongly about it. I feel strongly against it. Um that is other than that I'm not going to get into this
that or the other thing about where go what goes where because I think my other colleagues have done an excellent job of expressing their concerns on that. I do want to note however I'm a little confused in the um public way policy. they say there'll be monthly reports and
then in the other policy in the actual charge they talk about um yearly report an annual report and um I just um we do get monthly reports from the town manager uh they're in his they're in his
you know monthly report to us um and I could imagine that in the month of July they may say we didn't meet and that's their whole report, that's fine. But I just want to make sure, are we asking for a monthly report? And definitely, are we asking for an annual report? And
if we're asking for an annual report, is this now a group like the board of licensed commissioners that in fact provides us with an annual report based on the charter? Um those are broad two very broad issues
not again relating to where does Heather Stone go. Uh Anna >> could you Lynn you said um when you put counselors on ECAC it was a challenge. I wasn't on the council at that time so
I'm not sure but I know this topic has come up in other contexts as well. Could you speak a little bit more about what those challenges were? Was it like a a comp feeling like a conflict of interest or was it I'm I'm seeking a little bit more so I can decide whether or not I agree with that idea. >> I think I
there may be another counselor that's better at explaining it than me. Uh some of it I think may be the issue between at what point are you an advocate for an issue and at and where does that
advocacy belong? Does it belong in the committee or does it belong on the council? That's my best explanation. Okay. U Pam Rooney. >> Pam Rooney. >> Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Uh yeah, I
had I had noticed the conflict in the reports. If this if this group meets once a month, uh there's absolutely no reason to have monthly reports. Um even if they meet every two weeks, there's no reason to have a monthly report. Uh it
feels like you could have a a quarterly report or just make your meeting minutes regularly available. Um but we know that meeting minutes are a very um
uh unreliable source of information. So um I think I think a a quarterly report would be okay summarized annually. Um back to what was spoken by several other people. Um, yeah, I would I would want
to make sure that the the description I like the idea of putting G sort of as its own item and really and really make a comprehensive list of what this group would deal with. Um, it should certainly
reflect or at least um do research on materials that were developed by transportation advisory committee. they did such good work. Um it's sitting there unused and there
ought to be of course some reference to that material um as being put into the purview of this particular group. Thank you. I do have one other comment and that is that it's it appears to me that this is
it kind of follows up on a little bit of what Pam and I were both just talking about about reports. Clearly, this group would develop recommendations that would then have to come to the council for action. And I think we need to be very
clear what we expect in any report that they would come forward with with that recommendation. Um you know for instance when we get something about you know a conduit in the public way or whatever we get some
very detailed drawings and there's been a consultation and we get all of that hopefully not all the time in the packet. uh and it seems to me that the the burden on this com committee to
provide detailed reports to the council on items on which they will be asking us to take action is critical. Having said that, I'm also just gonna create a little warning and that is that we
increasingly and for good reason have committees who feel and in their charge say their advisory to the town council. And I will just tell you that one of the biggest challenges that I have had
setting agendas is providing time for those committees that feel they are and in fact their charges say their advisory to the council. And it's um I just I I feel there's some enormous benefits to a
committee like this. I I've said all I need to say. Thank you. Councelor Hani. >> So I guess I see advice here as being in the form of written reports, not regular
presentations to the council. the same way in some sense that our committees write reports and all like maybe we have to set some expectations up for our committees as to what advisory to the town council means,
>> right? I mean, and let me just expound a little bit more on that. I've tried to stick to the rule that you're coming to us because there's an action and and many instances I would assume that TPC was going to come to us because now they
want us to take some action and just like you know when Jason Skills is going to re recommend the acceptance of a road we suggest he come to us with proper documentation in time in our packet and
that we have an opportunity to ask questions. So there I do I do perceive that there would be times when the chair of TPC and maybe the staff person to TPC would actually come before the council because they're asking us to take an
action and we have some questions. >> Yeah. I I see it as the same way the planning board advises us on zoning amendments. They write a memo. >> Yeah. >> And maybe the chair comes but the planning department >> comes. That I I agree. And that's part of what I'm saying and
let's be clear about the expectations. Um George and Council Ryan, >> I'm going to yield to Andy for the moment and then come back if I need to. >> Andy, >> yeah, I was hoping you'd go first.
>> I'd be happy to go. I um what I guess I'm looking for um and speaking I think for the committee are things that we can work on that um can address some of these concerns. Um I have at least six
or seven at the moment. Um whether we'll be able to address all of them in the time little time we have left. Um I don't know. Um so at some point before we're done um we're going to need to summarize some of
these concerns. This has been an enormous labor by this committee and it would be for me personally um a bit distressful to have it not get through this session. But that may be what will happen and I'll have to deal
with it. Um, but uh there's been a lot of thought gone into this and so it would be helpful if we could get would have been helpful to get some of this a long time ago, but it would be helpful to get at least some focus um so that when we come back for a second reading um we can address some of these
concerns. >> And and let me just suggest that one of the things that Athena and I are and and Paul and you are meeting on tomorrow is setting up those three meetings. And if we think, for example, it would be better for TSO
to not bring this back until the 8th because you want a little more time, then that's a reasonable thing to do. Okay. Um Andy. >> Yes. Some of the um things were brought
up are easier to answer than others. Uh when you go back up to the top and look at section C, recommendations and other actions of the TPC and uh C then subsection
um C is uh for all other matters which is to excuse me section two for matters requiring a recommendation to the town council. the TCC piece shall submit a
written recommendation to the town council. Such recommendation shall include the special factual findings made in support thereof. >> Um that was one of the additions that came from KP law.
>> Um and uh the other sections is other matters which TPC is authorized to act. official receive such documents and testimony. This may be submitted by the request for town officials or members of the public.
And that's where the monthly reports of course came in. >> Um it was part of their addition to the uh their suggested addition to the policy. Um the lighting policy and paving policy
that councelor Hani brought up. I do think that they need attention um in discussion and uh we probably need to um hear a recommendation also from the town
manager on that because the paving decisions um have generally been made in the executive branch uh by the town manager um and not by the council. as far as
specifically which streets are being paved and uh we were [clears throat] not trying to change more than necessary. We were trying to change procedure but not content
um of respons major responsibilities um and that's what I was trying to emphasize in my initial presentation. So that question of the paving u does it remain with the town manager or is the
council wanting a recommendation the council wants to make that final uh decision. Um it's a fairly technical um and difficult process for a council to get into and I
would caution very much I will not be a part of it so I won't have to live in this realm that some of you will still have to live in but uh those are very difficult decisions involving a lot of things having to do with uh projections
on the as we've heard from Jason skills on what the future of the road is, what the cost of the change is, what the alternatives are. Um, and uh, you know, it's not a simple decision and
uh, it would really be shifting a lot of responsibility to in time to the council and I'm not sure that the council really would even want to do that. Uh so but I do encourage you to think about it because it is a live question as far as
the street lighting policy which was the other one that was uh brought up. I what happened with the street with the lighting policy is that u and I think that councelor
Hanniki alluded to this at the end of the last council session that was two years ago um after we had spent at TSO because I was a member of that that TSO also uh we spent a lot of time on the
issue and ultimately its complexity was overwhelming to the committee and uh the town manager and superintendent of public works said that they would develop policy to recommend back to the
uh committee and uh we didn't pursue it and they didn't pursue it. it hasn't happened and I've had this discussion with councelor Hanaki as to how to move this forward in the next council uh whether to
reintroduce it or to have it in the carryover memo or both. Uh but it is a serious issue. Um it does involve um matters that sort of cross over because it touches a little bit on the public
way but it also involves issues that are u larger than the public way. U as uh has been pointed out by the council sponsors
of that particular policy two years ago. There were things like um lights coming into u bedroom windows because it was not carefully thought out and uh dark skies issues which are serious affecting
uh wildlife and scientific and non-scientific appreciation of the skies which is interfered with artificial light. It's not carefully thought out. Okay. Um, I'm not sure that that belongs in the TPC or not, but it
is something that I think deserves serious consideration. >> Thank you. Uh, George, I want to come back to you in a moment, but Anna, this did come to go. Do you want to give us a quick oral report? it did come to go and
um one of the things that go discussed was once again the additional pieces from TSO but uh KP Law had gone through pretty much our entire policy and so GO felt compelled to review those suggestions for amendments that KP Law
had made. Uh, one notable one for those fans of the charter out there was that the original policy said as noted in in the charter, the council is the keeper of the public way. The charter never says those words. Uh, so we made some slight changes as we were going through.
Nothing significant. Overall, this was a little confusing because we were going back and forth between the charge, the changes to the policy, and um then back to the charge again. So, we did ultimately find it clear, consistent, and actionable, but we sent
it back to TSO multiple times because there were changes proposed by KP Law that were beyond our our scope, we felt to accept. Once it came back from TSO the final time, we were able to move it forward uh through clarity, consistency, and actionability relatively quickly.
And and I just want to add and this is one of the reasons why Anna brought forward the amendments to committee charges that we're uh going to see in a moment because we just kept feeling in G
that the expertise to discuss this was within TSO and yet the um legal recommendations went beyond what TS what what goal. So, um, all right. Uh, George, why don't
you try your list on us? Okay. I have, uh, some notes as well, so let's go. >> So, I'll start with, uh, something very specific. Counselors serving on the committee. Um, I don't I would speak for
the committee. I think that that's not going to change. So, if there's a strong sentiment from other uh of our colleagues that they really don't want counselors on this body um on this commission, they should they should speak up. Um the Heatherstone example,
um you know, we don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. I there's no way we're going to be able to to wordsmith this. Um many roundabouts are in fact often thought of as traffic calming measures. Um and within the the document we have
in front of us uh the council is perfectly within its authority to call back something and say well we want to take this. So if a if counselors you know feel like this is really something that they shouldn't let TPC handle because we're the experts um they could
uh you know make a motion in in council and have it be brought back to us and then I guess you'd send it to TSO. uh doesn't seem like a good idea to me. But anyway, um I I you know, I don't think there's much we can do with that. Um if you really think a mini roundabout
is a major road change, um perhaps you can make a motion to have it put somewhere else. But again, we can bring in the the DPW folk and they will tell you that in their business, these are often seen as trafficcoming measures. And uh but as I said, the council has
the authority to to take something uh under its own uh wing if it wishes. Councelor's on committee. I don't know if people want to weigh in on that now, but um we went back and forth in this. I originally felt that um counselors shouldn't be on the committee from some of the reasons that uh the president
spoke of, but I became convinced by my colleagues that that it would be uh not a terrible thing. And it also seemed to work quite well in Northampton. So, um, I yielded on that and now I'm would be willing to defend it. But if if seven
members of this body don't want counselors on on the commission, then that's something that we should hear about. Um, reports the thought was that, you know, they're taking sometimes they'll be taking up some things that are going to really impact our constituents and we'd
like to know about it. Um, and maybe you read everybody's minutes and read everybody's reports uh ciduously or you check out the uh the town calendar and you know exactly what everybody's doing all the time. Um, I'm not one of those people. And so the thought originally
was that we would like to hear from them on a regular basis, not just at the end of the year. Um, could be quarterly, could be monthly. Um, I agree there's a bit of a tension between the charge and the policy. Um, but I guess a question for you all, if
you have any thoughts on it now or in writing to us, um, how often do you want to hear from these folks? Um, I think you'd like to hear more than once a year. Um, and if you do hear from them on a quarterly or monthly basis, should they be then be required to write an
annual report? Um, >> I don't know the answer to that. I, you know, but that's something we need help with. Um, wording is easily changed. We can adjust that. I don't think it takes it take just a little word smithing to make that clear. What we clearly were referring to
was uh except for utility structures. That's what we were trying to say. Um everything else is is falls under that paragraph. So I'm sure we could fix that without too much trouble. Um I think the biggest one for me and the most challenging and it's a think
excellent point brought up by a number of you um is sort of the question of big picture and policy complete streets safe routes to schools some of the things that TAC was doing where does that where does that go now I think that's that's a
very good question um I felt that some of this in fact could be fall under their function in terms of their advisory and you know providing advice to the council and the manager on matters related to and then there's a whole list of things. Um maybe we should
include safe streets. Maybe I I'll have to read this again myself, but um complete streets, safe streets. Um but there is a tension between I think the uh the the admin the manager's function and DPW's function in terms of trying to
figure out given the budget what they can or cannot do. And I'm not see I don't see how this body can can be dictating um policies or or plans that have serious economic impact. Um so there's there's a
I think something there we need to think about and maybe further thoughts this evening or in writing to us before we look at this again um as TSO. But um where do some of these things fall? I think is a good question. Um,
and so I don't know what to say to that one. I think that's going to take some discussion. Um, I still hope that we can get this done this year uh before our term ends. Um, and so any kind of written comments you can make or anything you can say in the next half
hour or 20 minutes or five minutes um to give us some sense of where you stand on some of these things. Um, do people feel strongly that that there shouldn't be counselors on this this body? Um, do they want us to create some kind of
special uh statement on lighting? Um, I think what I think we were thinking of is, you know, on my street for instance, a light has been out for two, three years. So, someone might come to reach out to DPW or I don't know, reach out to somebody and say, will you please repair
this light? So, now I assume that's something that would come to this body. Um, but I don't think we were thinking of it as their job to come up with a lighting policy for the town. Um, that would be a totally different fall under a different uh category of action. I
don't think that's what we think this this group should be doing. Um, but we need to hear more about that if people feel strongly about it. Um, yeah. What am I missing? Um, I was taking some notes. Lynn has some notes, but you all have been listening. So, are
there things that that I'm missing you'd like to add to this list or some suggestions you'd like to make to help us come back to you with something that at least in theory you could vote on in two weeks? >> Councelor Hanni. >> So, turning a light back on is not as
easy as it sounds because many people on a street tend to disagree whether they want that light or not, hence the need for a policy. um [laughter] and clarity on who creates that policy. Um to go to your point about recalling items
delegated um and that we could always do that if we didn't think the particular mini roundabout proposed was there. Except we wouldn't know about that until after the action has been taken. And at that point we cannot recall the action because
the policy as written says we reserve the right to recall to itself prior to action by a delegated. And for the TPC, as we get with Paul, the TPC says the reports come after the
action has been taken. The at a minimum the reports are submitted to the town council and clerk. Uh at a minimum, the date on which they met, the name of the requesttor, a brief summary of the request, and the action taken. That presupposes they've already taken action. We don't hear what goes directly
to Paul until he's acted. Unless he's himself refused to the delegation and brings it to us, but that's not our ability to recall it from him. That's him and his ability to say, "I don't want it." Um, so if if you guys
are envisioning some part of being able to recall stuff under this section G that might fall into major, there needs to be more regular reporting than what we just discussed in this council on when things go to them
>> so that we know what they're actually being delegated before they take action. And neither the policy nor the um charge at this point imply or have any reason for that to
happen. Which means in effect we don't have a recall matter unless we happen to get CCD or hear about it before action has been taken. But there's no regular method for us to be able to make that
decision on a knowledgeable basis. Um, Jennifer, go ahead. >> Yeah. So, I that's I mean that's a concern I had from the beginning um in response to what councelor Hani just um
articulated that it we're we're giving a lot of authority to this commission. So that's one of the reasons I supported and feel more comfortable having a counselor represented on the TPC as also
a way that information can be brought back to the council. I mean it at least I don't know if it assures it but that's sort of built into the process. And what we were really trying to balance through the whole in TSO through the whole conversation
is not relinquishing all the town the council's sort of authority or to in terms of the public way and also to have a place where residents could go.
It was a balance between are we creating a bureaucracy or are we create or how do we not create a bureaucracy but create a body where you know residents who have concerns and certainly with traffic
calming road paving you know lights residents want to have a place where they can go and be responded to and have it not be a bureaucracy. So it's been a sort of a balancing act. I mean because
now people will come to their district counselor and sometimes you know the counselor can bring something to the council and you know whether it has to do with parking regulations and have some action
taken. But is that the best way to handle it or should it go where everybody in town, you know, any resident could go before the commission and is that will they be responded to in
a more sort of equitable way and will they be responded to or are we just sending them you know we don't want to be sending them to you know a a more of a bureaucratic process but I felt strongly personally that having at least
one counselor represented on the commission was a way that the council would have a liaison to the TPC and be able to maybe have some feedback and be a a breast of what's happening before
action is is taken. That makes sense. >> Um George, thank you for your list. My list was very similar. Um, again, if it is helpful to TSO uh to have this not come back until the
8th, that would be fine. Um, I first I should have prefaced all of my comments by saying I just really respect all of the work that went into this by TSO and the town manager for bringing it forward. I think my initial thought was
this was more like the board of licensed commissioners, but the reality is the board of licensed commissioners are operating under some very s significant state laws that make their task much clearer. And so it's not like that at
all. Um and so um I hope we can come up with something that we can agree to on in this council. Um and you know um are there other comments of Jennifer?
Yeah, that was part of my concern from the beginning with the board of license commissioners cuz you know I feel on the council I guess we get a report from them once a year but I know very you know which is I guess fine for what they do. I didn't want the council to be as
removed from the transportation and parking commission as I feel that we are from the board of licensed commissioners. >> Okay. Are there any other comments or questions particularly from TSO George? I mean, >> so yeah, I obviously we can spend hours
on this and I don't want to do that, but I I guess I'm trying to get a sense from my colleagues if they really are afraid that somehow a major or some kind of of of of project will take place in their district or in some part of town that
they care about uh without them ever hearing about it. Um, and it's hard to imagine Heatherstone Road u would ever have taken place without somebody hearing about it. Um, and so again, I'm just thinking out loud, but I'm trying to see if that's a concern that a lot of
you share because I'm also trying to think of how we could we could sort of uh address that. Um we're trying to create a body to which uh for a large number of things where people feel sort
of just they don't know what to who to go to and they end up going to lots of different people or they just don't go at all because they're frustrated or they just they just throw up their hands. um and also uh multiple elements of our town uh staff get involved and uh
so we're trying to create a body that will address some of these concerns. So uh do people really think that um a mini roundabout will suddenly just magically appear in their district without them ever hearing about it or having any chance to address it or speak
to it? Um and do they think that somehow bringing that to the council um would somehow bring out a better result than being bringing it to a body that we have also also haven't talked about the composition of the body or the number of people serving on it. Um are there
concerns about that? Right now it's nine members. Um we've obviously people some have expressed concern about counselors on it. What about the other membership? So you have police chief, you have DPW, you have director of planning, economic development or designate and you have three residents. Um since I've not heard
anything this evening, it suggests that people except for the issue about town counselors um are okay with the membership. Um I assume they're okay with the the voting uh issue. Um everyone has a right. Everyone has a vote on this particular body of nine. I
think it's I forget how many it's in Northampton. Um it's more I think it may be in my notes somewhere. >> I think it's 11. >> I'm sorry. >> I think 11 >> 11 and then one member is just advisory.
Um so the composition people are okay with that. Um so again there's a lot here I understand but when we come back and whenever we do come back um
well we've addressed all the concerns. >> Pam Rooney. >> Thank you. I actually raised to Andy my concern with the number of people on the on the committee. It seems really large. Uh if there was to be one counselor and
two um towns people with expertise, I think that would be a little a little um more streamlined. I I you know, two counselors probably unless they're also on TSO, they're not going to be necessarily
skilled and knowledgeable about road construction and timing of projects, etc., etc. So, are they really adding value or are they just filling some seats? And I would feel like they were filling seats. Um, but maybe good to
have that one liaison and probably somebody I think whoever is on this TPC would also be on the on TSO. So, it's it would be a little bit like okay, the planning board points one of their
members to community preservation act. uh the recreation department puts one of their members on CPAC. So it's it's kind of a similar thing. So that's Thank you. If you're if you're going to continue to open the discussion
and I'll keep providing my answers. >> I think at this point we we need to make sure that any other comments go directly to the chair and vice chair of TSO. >> Okay. >> I've already sent my email. >> Thank you. Are there any other questions or comments from counselors?
Kathy, you had your hand up. Nope. Okay. Uh George, you have your hand up. Okay. Thank you. Uh the next item on our agenda is um
proposed amendments to the council committee charges. Uh I'm going to turn to Anna on this one uh because this came out of G. >> Thank you. So, you've heard me in my um verbal go reports a few times say how G
has returned things to the initial committee after seeking legal review. And essentially the reason why GO was doing the legal review or getting the legal review results from KB Law back in the first place is that G was the only
committee which had may seek legal advice in their charge. Uh, and many times when that legal advice came back, uh, a legal review came back, excuse me, from KP Law, it had content that was not under the purview of
clarity, consistency, and actionability. And so, G felt out of turn in accepting or rejecting those proposed changes without input from the original committee. That added weeks of delay on many of these measures when we had to
send it back to the original committee. They had to get it on their calendar. It had to come back to go again. Sometimes that committee, as in the case of what we were just discussing, would go back and forth on it a few times. So, we made a really simple proposal. Um, we went
through and put in that same phrase that essentially allowing each committee to access legal advice on their measures as needed versus only GL being able to do it. Uh, and I know that there's at least one place where uh it needs to I know
Andy's got some comments on where it goes in the charge, but the premise is the same regardless is basically committees should have access to seeking legal advice. Uh it shouldn't just be G. >> Um okay. So
um with that I'm going to put a motion on the table and it's to amend the committee the community resources committee finance committee and town services and outreach committee charge by adding recommendations to the town council on measures may include consultation with the town attorney. Is
there a second? Second. Develier. >> Thank you. Uh councelor Hani. A couple of things. That motion is very vague and is actually not clear enough to say where that phrase goes in any of these charges. And in fact, in town
services, it probably needs to go in two different places, yet is only proposed for one place. Um, so I'm going to have a motion to amend for that. But um I also think it's a little inefficient to be dealing with
the TSO charge now when if we pass the town the TPC we have to deal with the TSO charge again um in a week or two. Um I have another proposed amendment to deal with that issue whether or not we
pass the TPC. Um, so I will I think one might be friendly, the other one might not be. So I'm not sure how you want me to make the motions. One to clean up and clarify where this phrase is going in and then one to add a
phrase regarding the TPC type um issues. >> Okay. It it would be premature to add the TPC. >> It's not adding the TPC. It relates to it though. So, I intend to make that motion and I can explain that one then. But how do you want me to deal with the one clarifying where this phrase goes?
>> It's Why don't you go ahead? Andy, by the way, also had one where he wants to move it to the char right under the word charge. He wants to move the sentence to that place. I don't know what he's talking about, but um right there. This is Andy's
motion to amend. >> Okay. Well, I'm going to make a different one. >> All right. Um, so, so my motion is to amend the motion to add the following at the end of that
motion. As follows. This is the big phrase, Athena. The phrase starts with as follows. As the last bullet point under the charge section for the CRC charge. as the last bullet point under budgets,
finances, and appropriations section for the finance charge. And as the last bullet point under both the town services and the outreach and community relations sections for the TSO charge, that's the phrase.
>> Okay. >> Um hopefully there's a second to it or if it's friendly, I can explain. >> I will second it. Um, it references all three sections that were in the packet, but also adds that same phrase to the
town services section of the TSO charge. Both the town services and the outreach and community relations sections reference making recommendations on measures. And so I feel like it needs that phrase needs to be in both of the sections.
>> So the motion's been made and seconded. Andy, you have your hand up. The motion to amend has been made and seconded. >> Um I guess uh probably not going to oppose the motion, but I'm going to say
that I um was essentially getting at the same issue, which is that it needs to cover both. And by putting it after the word charge, it covers it makes it clear that it's covering both. And then um it
gives the specific responsibilities for the two different um parts of the charge, the town services and the outreach. Um I find it to be a uh um
cleaner way of doing it so that it doesn't just repeat it twice. But they both achieve the same thing. Uh, Anna, >> I don't care whether it's in there once or twice as long as it's makes sense to people. Um, I am going to ask other
counselors that as we look at these charges that we just focus on the additional pieces about seeking legal advice for right now and that if people have other requests to change the charges that we do that at a later time, but I'd like to u Mandy, you asked whether or not now was the time. I would
respectfully ask that now not be the time um or at least this agenda item not be the time just so we can focus on this one one little change that would be really great to just get done. Um, I'm going to ask the town clerk, I mean
the clerk of the town, clerks of the town council to please put u the finance committee charge up and show us where the sentence would go based on councelor Hanaki's motion. My motion just clarifies that it goes where it was in the packet.
>> Okay. Thank you. Uh then let's look at the TSO charge. >> This is the one that adds it in one spot that it wasn't in the packet, >> right? Okay. And then um we don't I don't think we need to look at the other one. Are
there any questions about the amendment to the original motion? Andy, >> actually I'm lowering my hand because I said that I prefer doing it the other way, but but I'm not going to oppose
this motion because it achieves the same result. >> Okay. The floor the motion's on the floor to amend the original motion. Let's take that up at this point. Um, >> I'm sorry, Pam Bernie. I have a quick
question for the town manager. Um, does this work for from your perspective as different organizations, different or different communities reach out for who knows how many um, requests for
information from KP Law. Thank you. Yes, it's an excellent question. Thank you. Um, so I think typically what we're trying I think what this achieving is not sort of a general um uh open access
to the town attorney, but just a review of actual uh bylaws or measures that the council is or the council committee is reviewing so it doesn't have to go through this back and forth motion which is I think what Anna recognized. And so I think, you know, in terms of um
managing the process, I think this is more efficient and I think the town attorney um you know would welcome the opportunity to engage more with the council at this level. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Andy, you have your hand up. >> Yeah. No, I was in responding to the
last piece which ties it together. What happened with uh the public ways policy is that the normal circumstances once it's passed by one of the other committees before it gets to go
um that Athena is sending them to KP law as a matter of course and uh it then gets to KP law. KP law um then gives the legal opinion under the current system
to go. What happened here was that um significant changes were proposed that dealt [clears throat] with um more than just the amendments that were being made and uh dealt with policy
issues. and it caused the need to have things go back and forth between u the two committees and we've had several meetings uh where this was became essentially delayed because we were going back and forth between TSO
and go and then finally um Paul scheduled a meeting with Lauren Goldberg and members of TSO. We talked about her proposed changes. Uh we um understood what she was getting at. She understood
our concerns and we agreed to changes which is essentially then what was presented and uh it would it but I see this as being is a much more efficient way of dealing with it because it's going to get to the town attorney
anyway. um and just getting it there earlier I think is what uh the intent is. >> In addition to that, the only access to the town attorney is through the town manager or his designate. Um so uh the motion's been made. It's
been amended. The amendment provides more specificity as to where it would go in each of the uh charges and adds it in one place particularly. Is there any question? We are going to go and vote on the amendment and then we'll come back to the original motion.
Councelor Lord >> I. >> Pam Rooney. >> Yes. >> Councelor Ryan. >> Hi. >> Kathy Shane. >> Yes. >> Andy Steinberg. >> Yes. >> Jennifer Tob. >> Yes. >> Councelor Walker. >> Yes.
>> Patel. >> Hi. >> Anna Develin Gothier. >> Hi. >> Councelor. >> Hi. >> Lmerson. I councelor Hani. >> Hi. It's unanimous. We're going to now go to the original motion. Councelor Hanniki. So, it's in front of us. I don't see why
we shouldn't think it. I know Anna, you're not happy. Here's my phrase. Someone doesn't have to second it, but then it'll be in the public record and you guys can consider it when you consider the amendments. Um, but then we have to bring it all up
next week. So, it's moved to amend the I don't even know how this would be worded since this motion's so weird um to begin with. Um so that the TSO charge under the second bullet point in town services adds the phrase as
indicated by the town council policy on the control and regulation of the public way after the phrase public ways including transportation and parking. I moved where I was putting it. Athena, is there a second?
The motion dies for last lack of a second. However, I would might would suggest that the uh person making the motion forward that to TSO as they look at the charge for the committee so that if we in fact do adopt the public way
policy on the 8th when on the uh uh 15th, we can actually vote a change to the motion. Anna, >> I have a general question about committee charge changes. In Goo's charge, it says that Goo is to make recommendations to the town council regarding town council standing
committees. At any point, could a counselor simply email said request to go to look at or would that need to go through a formal motion process? I recognize that like you just said TSO, you asked Mandy to send that to TSO to consider. I would say that it should go
to go, not TSO, >> and that TSO should send goo their changes. >> That's a very good question, Anna. And the reality is we've usually referred in the past we have asked we've often had
go has often asked each committee to review their charge come back with changes and then TS go has reviewed them and brought them to the council. >> That's fine. Every committee is welcome to review their charge but those changes should come to go not back to the council without go's recommendation. So
if TSO is going to make a change to the charge after passage of the TPC, >> then it should come to go before it comes to the council. >> Right. And similarly like Mandy's
proposed change, she doesn't have to be on TSO to propose that change. It she could just simply request that change to me as go chair and I can bring it up to the committee to discuss. >> Yes, I guess. So the question is does it have to go through the council for referral which is what Anna asked
because if it does then I need to make another motion after this >> right like if committees are welcome to review their charge does that mean counselors can also make proposed changes to a charge without a referral >> without a referral from the council.
>> I will note that my proposal isn't contingent on TPC being adopted. >> No it isn't correct. >> Yeah. Um, my preference, which other people may certainly object to, would be that the person who would like to see
this recommended to the chair and vice chair of the standing committee and that standing committee talk about it with that person and then and then it goes to go. That would be my preference only because of the courtesy to the committee.
But, you know, other people may say, "No, just do it." I think Athena had a thought >> there. There's not a requirement that go review changes to committee charges. Goo it's in their charge to make recommendations on changes to committee charges, but it could come from TSO to
recommend a change directly to the council >> and especially in this case it makes sense that they go in tandem with the establishment of the TPC and the changes to the public waste policy. Right. I mean, unless there is a clarity, consistency, and actionability issue
with the change that Mandy proposed, my suggestion would just be to keep it on the next agenda, um, that when the council votes on the TPC and the changes to the public way policy. If there's an objection to that, then the council could refer it to G, but I I don't see a
need that it have to be referred to go. >> Okay. >> Whether formally or informally. Could you clarify then what the purpose of having make recommendations to the town council regarding town council standing committees what the purpose of even having that in the charge is if it doesn't say anything about clarity
consistency or actionability about those charges but what's the point of having that in there if nothing is supposed to go to go or nothing has to go to go do >> um because sometimes there are like reorganizations of committees I think go looked at the the way committees work
and how committees are organized And Kathy wants to say something, so I'll stop. >> Kathy, I can answer that, Anna. It just it gives you the right to do it. It doesn't say you're the only one who has the right to do it. I mean, if if you didn't have that written in there, no
recommendation on a charge change would ever come from G. It would just come from anywhere. >> Yeah. But Kathy, the reason why we just put in all of that about seeking legal advice was because the only place it appeared was in G's charge and therefore other committees were under the
assumption and we operated that other committees did not seek legal advice on their measures. So I'm trying to figure >> what you just did in terms of recommending we can go directly to attorney. It was totally appropriate and your eyes could look across all the charges and say that's missing from the
other charges. So, not each committee had to didn't come in. I'm just saying it can go both ways. It doesn't say it always originates with with a committee. It's it gives you the ability to do what just happened here or the license to do it,
>> which was great. It's a sweeping change that makes sense. >> I generally just disagree and I think that it's NO's charge for a reason, but thank you. >> Okay, Andy, you have your hand up. I've been working under
goes to go so that u it is on our agenda for the next meeting as to what changes would be necessary in the TSO charge if the TPC is adopted and uh the assumption
was it was it would be a recommendation and we were queuing it in the next meeting and not waiting so we would have time to get to um a go meeting before the end before the last council meeting.
So u and I had um consulted with the president about that order of things and we recognized that if it became so complicated at go that it wasn't uh uh possible to finish it in this term of
the council that it needed to go into somebody's carryover memo. And I think that was pretty much what Anna and I were discussing um a little bit earlier about this very topic. >> Okay. Um we're going back to the
original motion. The original motion was to make the amendments to each of the charges that we then the motion was amended. We have passed the motion to amend and so now we're back to the motion to actually make the changes to the charge.
Uh councelor Uh Pam Rooney, >> yes. Councelor Ryan, >> hi. >> Kathy Shane, >> yes. >> Andy Steinberg, >> yes. >> Jennifer Todd, >> yes. >> Councelor Walker.
Councelor Walker. I'll come back. Pat D'Angelus. >> I'm sorry. Where? >> Hi. >> Anna Delin Gothier. >> Hi. Councelor Ete >> I. >> Lang Griem is an I. Councelor Hani >> I.
>> And councelor Lord >> I. >> Councelor Walker going to mark her absent for that vote. So the vote is 11 in favor and two absent. Uh we have a few other items but
not much. Uh let me just say that we um committee reports. Let me also mention each of you gave committee reports at our last uh meeting which was just a week ago. >> U so very quickly BCG I've already said December 3rd we have a meeting from noon
to 2. Um we will post that agenda this week. CRC Pam Rooney anything. Uh yeah, we have a meeting on December 4 and then again on December 18. Um we have a um a
report that has been sent to go for review on the zoning the zoning map changes along Main Street. So that's just that that's one item that will finish up and then we will have our carryover report to you
for the December one meeting. Thank you. >> Thank you Kathy Shane Elementary School. >> Uh finance first. >> No actually finance comes after E. >> That's F. >> Okay. Nothing to report on the elementary
>> finance. Finance. Um, we have a draft uh guidelines, budget guidelines that I'll get to the clerk tomorrow. So, it will be on your December 1st as planned. And I don't remember whether I reported, but
we did receive the audit of the town budget from the auditors. [snorts] It was a clean report uh for FY24. So that was accomplished and I there were a few minor changes that needed to be made that I think have been made and
so at some point Paul we can just report that those have been made. There were some footnotes or a couple other wording changes just so we it will be posted. >> Thank you. Uh go Anna >> G will be meeting tomorrow. Uh our
primary objectives are the town manager goals and we will also be reviewing uh the zoning bylaw that has come through to us. Thank you, Pam. >> Okay. Jones Library Building Committee. George, >> nothing new. >> Andy Steinberg, TSO. Anything?
>> Um, our next uh meeting is I think December 4, the first uh Wednesday in December. We may try and move our second meeting from the 18th to the 11th with the
agreement of the committee because uh we want to make sure that it precedes the final meeting of the council. >> Thank you. Um any committee reports? Seeing none. Paul town manager report.
>> I'm sorry. >> Did you have your hand up for something? Mandy. um committee. >> It's technically a council comment. >> Oh, okay. Uh town manager report. >> Just a few things. Um so Mondays are the
be first day for our comproller and our new planning economic development director who will also the um plan and economic development director will be at the Capa Joe on December 12th at Massuda's Cafe downtown. Um the business improvement districts, lots of happening
uh now because of the Mary Maple is December 5th. Um greeting card day is December 6th to 7th. Um and Sip and Stroll is December 18th. The civic academy wrapped up on Wednesday and that was a very successful program and we'll
put together a little report for the council so you can see what happened. very very exciting, very good uh presentation and uh we're really proud that DEI was able to manage to get us to a 100% on the municipal equality index and there's a press release out on that
as well. >> Questions of the town manager. >> Okay. Uh there's no written president's report. Let me just mention uh on December 1st definitely on the schedule is the state of the town. Um we have
agreed Paul and I of the we're going to try to each do five minutes and that's it. And uh I have not invited any of the other uh committees to actually make written reports uh but to submit them to
make oral reports but to submit them in writing. I will mention that the school committee, elementary school committee has asked to make a written report and if the council would like, they've asked to make an oral report and if the council would like that, please let me know. Uh other than that, uh I am in the
process of receiving the reports. Uh the financial guidelines will be on the agenda. I'm going to unless the transportation parking commission, unless TSO tells me differently, I'm going to move that to the 8th. Okay. Uh, Main Street BN resoning will be on for
first read. Uh, and uh, possibly VFW surplus property, housing production plan, town manager evaluation, second read, town manager goals. Uh, clearly I'm going to be shifting some of that on to the 8th and making sure that we can t
tie up all the rest of it on the, uh, 15th. Uh, we also need to do an executive session regarding compensation for the town manager. Um, I I'm going to send this list out to people tomorrow to make sure that
everything is on it. Uh but meantime, as I mentioned before, Athena and George and Paul and Dave, I guess, are meeting tomorrow to discuss the agendas for the first
the 8th and the 25th. Are there any questions? Yes, Pam Rooney. >> I did not hear the housing production plan mentioned and given that it's pretty complex. >> I mentioned it. >> You did? I didn't hear it. >> Yeah, that's fine. I got to turn up my hearing aids.
>> Okay. >> What day? >> Sorry, >> I should turn up my voice. >> Uh, which one? >> We may put it on the um first, but more likely on the 8th. >> Okay. >> Cuz last week you had said it would be
today. >> Yeah. Then there was a decision in agenda setting that we couldn't put it on. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Other questions, comments? Seeing none, I make a motion to Oh, are there any counselor comments? Councelor
Hanaki, >> I just wanted to I I sent an email to the new counselors that'll be coming in, but I wanted to make sure everyone that is carrying over also knows about the free Mass Municipal Counselors Association counselor training on
December 5th in Boilston. It's a mostly all day affair um 9 to 2. Uh they will be talking about navigating your role as a counselor that includes um open meeting law, working with
counselors um and department heads and other staff. That's mostly the the um um the panel on that is is a lot of current MMCA officers as well as some
other uh people and then they'll talk about budgets. Um they provide a lunch um and then they'll talk about rules of procedure and navigating how you make motions and and things like that. So,
for anyone who's not too solid on um open meeting law, rules of procedure, budgets, this could be a very Oh, and the budget presentation, this is the big thing, is by Sean Cronin, who is the senior deputy commissioner of the Division of Local Services. You can't
get much better than that. So, um so if anyone if you're interested, all counselors can go. You don't have to be a new counselor um to go uh look it look it up on the MMA's website. We're all part of the Mass Municipal Counselors
Association, >> the budget piece in particular. >> And did you know whether that information went out to the new counselors? >> It did. >> I forwarded it to all of them, but I don't know if anyone else did, but I did. >> I have also forwarded it and also mentioned MMA and connect made sure
MMA's annual conference. So yeah, and I know that Angela has been in touch with them as has the town manager and the clerk. Are there any other questions or comments? >> Seeing none, I make a motion to adjurnn.
Is there a second? >> Second, Ryan. >> Councelor Ryan, >> I. >> Kathy Shane, >> yes. Andy Steinberg, >> hi. >> Jennifer Tob, >> yes. Councelor Walker. >> Yes.
>> Ah, thanks. Uh, Patangelos. >> Hi. >> Anna Delin Gothier. >> Hi. >> Councelor Ete. >> Hi. >> Lynn Griezmer is an I. Councelor Hanni. >> I. >> Councelor Lord. Hi. >> Pam Rooney.
>> Yes. >> It's unanimous with the meetings adjourned. It is 10:09. Thank you.