and Amoris Meet is ready. Yes, please go ahead. Thank you. And you've opened the audience. Thank you. Um, good evening. It's October 6th, 2025.
This is a regular meeting of the Emer Town Council. Chapter two of the acts of 2025 extended through June 30th, 2027 allow us to have a p ability of public bodies to meet in a fully remote or hybrid manner. This law allows us to
continue holding meetings remotely without quum of the council physically present at the meeting location. This meeting is accessible in real time by Zoom, by phone, and as a live broadcast on Ammerst Media channel 9
and live stream. There are in fact two, six, eight counselors in the room and uh two at the moment with more expected on Zoom. Please be advised that this meeting is being held in person and that
the remote access option is provided as a courtesy. In the event of a technology issue with a remote connection, the meeting will continue as long as there is a quorum in the room. Um given that we have a quorum of the
council present, I'm calling the October 6th regular meeting of the town council to order at 6:32. I'll call upon each counselor by the name they have indicated they would like to be addressed. At that time, please unmute your mic and say present. This
will indicate that you can hear us and we can hear you. Please remember to mute your mic after saying present. Pat D'Angelus present. Anna Develia, present. Councelor Ete, present. Lynn Griezmer is present. Councelor
Hanick, present. Bob Hegner is absent. Councelor Lord is presently not here, but we expect her. Pam Rooney here. Councelor Ryan, present. Kathy Shane,
I'm here. Andy Steinberg, present. Jennifer Tob, I'm here. And councelor Walker, here. Thank you. There's no chat room for this meeting. If a counselor has technical issues, please make sure that Athena and
I know. Um, and to make a comment, please make sure you use the raised hand button. There will be only one public comment period during general public comment tonight. Uh, please make use um, I already said that. All right,
we're going to move to the announcements, but before I do that, there is going to be a change in the order of the agenda. And let me just mention we'll move directly from call to announcements and hearings and
general public comment. We'll do the consent agenda. Although I am removing one item from the consent agenda. And if depending on other items that might be removed, we're going to take those up after action items and after um
presentations and discussions. Action items will actually come before presentations and discussions. This is to accommodate the various people who are in the coming because of an item that they are part of the presentation for.
Um so on announcements, our next regular town council meeting is October 20th. Um it will begin at 6:30. There will be a hearing and um at this point that's all
I anticipate additional then to all the other regular items. On November 3rd we will have a financial indicators meeting. It will begin at 6 and the regular council meeting will begin immediately. After that we'll
probably posted for 6:45 but more than likely it won't begin until 7 or 7:30. The various committees are meeting CRC, finance, governance, and town governance organization and legislation.
Anna, can you tell me whether or not you've scheduled an additional meeting? We will be scheduling one. It's obviously not going to be tomorrow. Um, it will be on the 21. I don't have my calendar up in front of me, but we we go will not be meeting tomorrow, but then
we'll be meeting for three weeks straight on a Tuesday. Okay. So, October 14th, 21st, and 28th. Yep. Thank you. Thanks. Town services and outreach. Um, you have a meeting coming up.
There's three quickly announcements. We have a cup of Joe this Friday with the new senior center director. That'll be at the Black Sheep at 8:00. Next slide. We also want to encourage you to answer
the Ammeris senior services survey. Uh those responses are due on November 15th. If you'd like a hard copy of it, you can actually get one at the senior center. And finally, just a reminder that on a regular basis, the Rainbow
Coffee Hour takes place on the first Tuesday of every month. Thank you. There's no hearing tonight. Um, but we are going to move to general public comment. If you are in the room and you would like to make general public comment, please sign up with
Athena at the desk. If you are in the audience and you would like to make general public comment, please raise your hand at this time. Okay. Um, Athena, how many people in the room? One. Okay. Uh, and then we have one, two,
three, seven online. Um, we're going to begin with the one person in the room. Please come forward. State your name and where you live. Hi, my name is Algra Clark. I live in District 2. Um,
I'm here tonight. I looked at some of the housing bylaws that are in front of the council um that have been brought forward. And I think that in combination with some of the other stuff that's coming out of the housing production plan, it could potentially give us a good opportunity to have some balance in
development for um considering year-round residents along with student housing. Both are important. Um and I also just wanted to note that Hadley last week did not pass
their two and a half prop override. So they will be facing some significant cuts and I think that that could trickle into our staffing especially in emergency personnel. So I just wanted to mention that because I do think it would
be a concern um for our emergency services in town. So those are two things I just wanted to put out there into the world. Thank you. Thanks for joining us, Algra. Um the rest of you are in on Zoom when I
call your name. Let me just go through the following. It's going to be a twominut limit to two uh actually a threem minute limit given the number of people. Please make note of the clock and also um we want to make sure that
you understand that public comments on matters within the jurisdiction of the town council residents are are welcome to express their views for three minutes. The council will not engage in a dialogue or comment on a matter raised during p general public comment. Public
comments are not reflective of the opinion of the town council. Uh we'll start with Silus McClung. Please enter the room. State your name and where you live. You need to unmute. There you go. Hello. My name is Silas McClung. I live
in District 2 and I am one of nine commissioners for the town of Amherst Human Rights Commission. I'm speaking today to request the town council and town manager assistance in passing our commission's bylaws. Our bylaws have been cleared and vetted
by the town's uh law firm since I believe February of 2024. It's now October in of 2025 and we would really appreciate your help uh moving this forward. Um, the new bylaws specifically help us better promote the
town of Amherst human rights policy and better assist our director Pamela in reviewing uh matters brought to their team's attention as well as implementing um various educational activities including community events
like the youth hero awards. Um, lastly, in a very increasingly oppositional political and cultural climate, uh, we would really appreciate your help in in passing the Human Rights Commission's bylaws. Thank you,
Silus. Thank you for joining us. Anita Sorrow, please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Thank you, Lynn. Um, the library project is well underway. um as it accumulates change orders and
higher prices that are bound to reach a final cost most likely in in excess of uh the original estimate. The town pays all invoices based on the assumption that the library will transfer funds
obtained at least in part from donations to its capital campaign. But based on the sketchy information available to the public, the campaign continues to fall far short of its goal in excess um of
about $9 million short and there is no sign that the trend will reverse. How then will the project be paid for? The logical answer is that the town will pay the deficit. And then the real question that should be of interest to
everyone is where will the funds come from? Ultimately, the residents will pay the cost either in decreased services, increased taxes, or both. Several counselors now on this town council voted repeatedly in favor of the
project, and some of you are seeking reelection. Yet, with all the uncertainty associated with the project, it's puzzling to me that town council and its finance committee have shown little interest in assessing the
financial picture. Even while some counselors contemplate a tax override, ostensibly to cover the most basic of services, excuse me, road repair. It is equally puzzling why such information is not
readily and publicly available. In the interest of sound governmental oversight, counselors should be demanding regular and frequent financial information to assess the impact on the town. And in the interest of transparency, counselors should be
demanding that the public have ready access to that information without the need to make specific inquiries or formal document requests. I ask all counselors, especially those running for reelection and all others running for
seats on this council, to commit to full transparency and fiscal oversight of the library project. Those exercising the power of these elected offices cannot fulfill their fiduciary role otherwise.
Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Anita Barbara Pearson, please enter the room. State your name and where you live. So unmuting means I've entered the room. Okay. Thank you. I'm Barbara Pearson. I
live at 11 Page Street in Center of Amoris and I'm coming before you today to ask you to please approve the temporary pause for a year on applications for building permits for construction on residential buildings.
Uh pending completion of design standards, adoption of a housing production plan, and related actions. Um the issue for me in particular and my neighbors that I get to speak to is that um the economics there's no doubt that
the economics of real estate today favor short-term residents as opposed to people who want to make a long-term commitment to the community. Uh this is not true just in Amorest but in any area with a large pool of unrelated renters such as students. Um
I think uh we're going to have to take in order to overcome the long decadesl long failure to build affordable housing throughout the country means that we're going to be under more more stress than ever and year round residents will continue to decline unless there are
proactive steps taken and these sts may have to recognize values associated with property ownership other than an exclusive focus on return on investment. investment ment for example the Amirst community land
trust is developing alternative paths for ownership where neighbors help willing sellers get a reasonable return on their initial vest investment but also make a community investment and we need to spend town energy on
working out these alternate paths and valorizing what community is for us and so that we can become more and more friendly to families instead of less. Thank you. Thank you
for joining us. Barbara John Varnner, please enter the room, state your name and where you live. Hi, John Varner. Uh I live in Jeffrey Lane. Um I believe it's District 3. Uh, I'd like to speak in favor of the proposed article 19 changes uh to
Emmer's zoning bylaws. Uh, I think uh, for one thing, identifying student housing is vital. Data is essential for analyzing problems and we don't have uh, the data we need on student housing here in Ammerst. We can all see what happens when government
decides to avoid collecting data thanks to our current national politics. I would like to think we are wiser than that here in Ammerst. In addition, I think that Ammeris should not have Ammeris residents should not have to rely on the price of their homes uh to ensure the stability of their
neighborhoods and their home values. It's been augured that change happens and that is true. Change is constant, but we have a choice to regulate and guide change so that it minimizes the disruptions to Ammeris quality of life. This is especially important in our town, the smallest town in the country
to host a flagship public university. Limiting the density of student housing by establishing lot lineto- lot line minimum distances between student housing has worked in college communities like State College, Pennsylvania, Wilmington, Delaware,
Boulder, Colorado, and Ithaca, New York. This has reduced the impact of student rentals on the town's quality of life for all the neighborhoods and has helped to stabilize housing market is buffeted by rampant unregulated investment. Zoning codes from at least some of these communities are available and it's time
for the town council to study them seriously and adopt them. I would further encourage Ammeris Town Council to require that the names of all individual investors in LLC's buying properties in Ammeris to be part of the public record. Massachusetts
state law mandates that all investors in LLC's be registered with the state and available upon request. Ammeris zoning regulations do not require all LLC partners to appear in public records. By having all members of LLC's registered, we would know if there is overlapping
ownership of problem properties. We would also give renters more information on which to base their decisions when it comes to renting a property. If an LLC landlord has a reputation for poor property management or abuse of lease practices, partner's name should be made public on the record easily accessible
for students and non- students alike. Thanks for your consideration. I appreciate town council's uh openness to hearing all views. John, thank you for joining us. Ira Brick, please enter the room, state your name, and generally where you live.
Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you for the chance to speak. I'm Ira Brick, 255 Strong Street, a 32-year Ammerst resident, former UMass Family Business Center director, and someone who's written often in the Amorest Indie
about how our trajectory threatens the very character of downtown and our neighborhoods. Let's speak plainly. Ammerst has barely 13,000 year round residents bearing most of the civic responsibility while nearly 29,000 others come for the academic year
renting and then moving on. That balance is already fragile and yet most decisions from this council push us further from sustainability. The trend is clear. A shrinking college age population nationally. Betting everything on student housing may seem
like a quick fix, but it's shortsighted. If enrollment drops as predicted, we're stuck with vacancy, instability, and neighborhoods no one else can feasibly live in. A group of neighbors has just filed two sensible zoning bylaw changes. We're
simply asking for a one-year pause in multi-unit downtown construction while we finish the design standards we've already been working on for two years and get a real housing plan that values families, the workforce, and seniors, not just high rents from students. We
also want UMass to step up and house more of its own students as they should. Let's be honest, this echoes the earlier moratorum petition with 900 signatures that the council brushed off, ignoring a clear message from the public. That kind
of disregard is why Ammer struggles to recruit candidates and fill committees. People feel their voices don't matter. The council and its boards now skew heavily in favor of unchecked development, often appointing collaborators while sidelining our most
qualified independent neighbors. If we want to be a functioning democracy, especially when democracy itself is under threat nationwide, we have to act locally for transparency and fairness. This is not anti- studentent nor
anti-development. It's pro- community and prob balance. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And sadly, at present, the council's solution may be the problem. Please, let's take this pause, clarify
our direction, and prioritize people who choose Ammerst as home. Thank you. Thank you for joining us, Ira. Jill Breivick, please enter the room. State your name and generally where you live. Hi, my name is Jill Breivik. I'm a District 1 resident and town council
candidate. Um, over the past few weeks, I've had the opportunity campaigning to talk to dozens of my neighbors. Uh, and I hear a lot of, uh, unfortunately a lot of frustration and a lot of fear. Um, and I know that some of this is coming from feelings of powerlessness in the
face of rising fascism in our country. And so I just wanted to say that I fully support the proclamation recognizing October 14th as George Floyd Day as I support any efforts that use our town government's power and platform to speak out against racism, bigotry, and
oppression. Um, and then on another note, um, as many of you probably know, there are a lot of people in our town that are afraid, uh, that our town is overdeveloping, that homes have been and are continuing to be bought up by investors, and that we're losing what
makes Ammerst livable. Um, so I'm here also to support the residentled effort for changing zoning bylaws, uh, bylaw artic articles 18 and 19. Um, and I know that you're not yet deliberating on the details of these proposed amendments, but I just wanted to say that overall I
support the general sentiment of both proposals, the pause in downtown development so we can finish design standards and adopt a housing plan that gives priority to year-round residents while not causing hardship to students, and the protections in neighborhoods aimed at limiting the ability of LLC
investors to convert single and multif family homes into student rentals that displace families. in combination with ongoing negotiations with UMass to house more students on campus. These are simple, practical, and popular steps that are in the best interests of both
students and long-term residents. I know that there are counselors who feel that in order to solve our town's deep financial issues, we need to ramp up development. And I do truly truly understand the urgent need uh needs like fully funding our schools and paving our roads and more. Um but I don't believe
that this needs to be a trade-off. I think there is more work to be done to look at where our tax dollars are going and how we can prioritize better um and prioritize real sustainable development before we sacrifice the affordability, accessibility, and livability of our
town in irreversible ways. Um so I urge you to refer these proposals to the planning board for further consideration to show the people you represent that their experiences and quality of life matter. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us, Jill. Uh Darcy Deont, please enter the room. State your
name and generally where you live. Just a minute here. What am I doing? See, please proceed. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Hello.
Yes, we can hear you. We can hear you, Darcy. Yes, we can. She's not here. Oh, Darcy, we can hear you. Oh. Oh. There we go. Can you hear me? Yes, we can.
Okay. Sorry, that was me. Please proceed. Hi. Uh, my name is Darcy Dumont. I live in district three. I'm commenting to request the council and the planning board support of the two zoning proposals brought by 10 residents to protect the downtown and our
neighborhoods. My comment um is quotes from my article in the Ammerst Indie this week which is entitled What would Zoran do? Reflections on the prospects for democratic socialism in a small college town.
Um, I've been especially interested in delving into the democratic socialist position on the right to housing of year-round residents versus college students when a college doesn't provide enough housing on campus and when developers and real estate speculators
have gotten into the act. In Ammerst, we hear town counselors suggesting that the town has a responsibility to house students and that students are being discriminated against. Have I been espousing an unprogressive position by promoting the interests of
year-round residents? Is that a nimi position? Apparently not. The Democratic Socialist position would oppose encroachment of student focused private rental developments into family neighborhoods and would support new construction to primarily serve
community needs such as family, senior, and workforce housing over luxury or student-only developments. For example, Zoran Mambdani supports expanding municipal powers to enforce tenant protections and housing safety,
investing municipal resources and redirected institutional funds into stable, affordable homes for long-term resident families and vulnerable populations and encouraging participatory planning and decisionmaking to ensure that residents,
especially those most affected, have control over development outcomes. Mamani's approach prioritizes the rights of year-round residents to preserve neighborhood character, housing affordability, and downtown vibrancy rather than seeding control to college
interests or market only student housing solutions. He consistently supports year-round residents seeking to preserve their neighborhoods, often critical of universities expansions, and that intensifies speculation or displacement
in adjacent communities. I I urge you to think about these uh solutions and um and uh hope you will be able to easily refer this proposal to the planning board today. Thank you.
Thank you for joining us, Darcy. That concludes public comment. We are going to move on to the consent agenda. Uh the order can we quickly confirm that councelor Lord can hear and be heard?
I'm sorry. Yes. Hala. Can I'm sorry. Councelor Lord, can you hear us? Oh, yes. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Okay, just two seconds. Let me make sure I
correct my record. Okay. Um the on the consent agenda, uh the items were selected because they were considered to be routine. Um if you want to remove an item after I
read the motion, please let me know. I will tell you in advance that I am already move removing one of the items. Okay? And that is 6A, the adoption of the proclamation recognizing October 14th as George Floyd Day. So um the to
move the following items and the printed motions thereafter and approve those items as a single unit 6A waiver of the town council rules of procedure rule 8.6 for agenda item 6.8 A
proclamation recognizing October 14th, 2025 as George Floyd Day. 9A approval of town manager appointments community preservation act committee conservation commission cultural council. 11A
approval of minutes September 8, 2025 public forum meeting minutes September 15, 2025 regular meeting minutes. Is there are there any items people would like removed? Seeing none, uh, is there a second?
Second. Move immediately to a vote. Anna Delin Gothier, I. Councelor Ete, I. Lynn Griemmer, I councelor Hanniki, I. Bob Hegner is absent. Sorry. Uh, councelor Lord,
I. Pam Brunie, yes. Councelor Ryan, I. Kathy Shane, yes. Andy Steinberg, yes. Jennifer Tob, yes. Councelor Walker, yes.
Pat D'Angelos, I. It's unanimous with 12 counselors in favor and one absent. The uh George Floyd proclamation is going to be moved as I mentioned earlier to later after consent after we go
through the action items and we also go through the presentations. So, with that, we're going to move immediately to the zoning bylaw change petition article 18. And would you please bring um Kitty Axelenberry into
the room, otherwise known as Kathy. We had a discussion about that today. Kitty, is there anyone else that you need to come into the room? No. No, not at this time. Okay. So, Kitty,
uh, Athena has the presentation. She We're going to take the first bylaw, ask some questions, and then take the second bylaw, and then we'll come back for the votes regarding referral. Okay. Okay. I'm having a little problem here because
my version has disappeared when your version ca yours came into view. Okay. I think I've got it. But it has to wait one minute. Take your time.
Thank you. So, Ammerst Hi everyone. Ammerst is approaching a tipping point. Yearround residents are down to about 13,000 people. Students living off campus in Ammerst are about 9,000. Many year round
residents have left and many houses have been converted into studentonly houses. Residents need help from town council. We're asking you to prioritize housing for all people both downtown and in our neighborhoods.
Um, we have an interest in maintaining our very diverse family neighborhoods and a personal investment in the future of our neighborhood, schools, and communities. Uh, next slide, please.
We understand, yeah, we understand that the council might challenge whether state law requires referral of our bylaw proposals to the planning board, but our position is that the state law is clear. It's required. Um, and the council set a
precedent in 2021 by automatically referring the request of 10 residents for a temporary building moratorum. Next slide, please. Uh, in support of the bylaw article 18 protecting down law downtown, excuse me.
There's a lot most of us agree upon. We we we want a vibrant, diverse town with neighbors who know and care about each other and each other's children and neighbors who will lend a helping hand because they are Ammerst neighbors. In a small town like ours, it's a quality of life issue that doesn't take
money. Most people want that. So, let's get started. Next slide. Here's the text. Article 18 says that the town will not accept new applications for building permits for residential buildings with four or more
units in the downtown business area BG and BL for a year or until the town council approves the following. Next slide, please. Design standards such as how the building looks. That includes height,
setbacks, the amount of green space there, climate resilience criteria and it can include the width of the side sidewalk which is related to the setbacks and so on. Also, a housing production plan, which is already in
process, but we believe needs to be altered to prioritize and value housing for yearround mixed income houses residents. Next slide, please.
We need the pause so that the town can negotiate an agreement with UMass. The bottom line is that UMass needs to provide more housing for its own students, 5,000 beds on campus to relieve the strain on Ammerst's year-round residents. And our proposal
says that if the town can't accomplish the design standards and so and so on in a year, there can be a 90day extension. Next slide, please. Here are some details. Next slide, please. The town is already in the process of
analyzing downtown building design standards so that it can make good recommendations to the planning board and town council for discussion in a vote. In the meantime, the need for a temporary pause on applications for additional large multi-unit apartment
type buildings downtown is urgent. Next slide, please. The council is studying this housing production plan that encourages, supports, and justifies a dramatic expansion of housing for students, not
only in the downtown area, but throughout the community neighborhoods. This plan needs to be discussed in light of the population shift that the plan itself documents. a decrease in year- round residents accompanied by a related increase in
probably mostly undergraduate college students. Next slide, please. Again, our year- round population is now about 13,000, less than a third of the entire population. According to that proposed
production plan, if downtown is to be used and enjoyed by everyone, the plan needs to prioritize year-round housing, especially for low and middle inome residents, instead of sacrificing it to student rentals.
It is reasonable to say that UMass needs to house at least 5,000 more of its students, most of whom are only here until graduation, rather than leaving them on their own, having to find places to rent, often by the bed, for a lot of money, and simultaneously draw draining
the town of housing for families, seniors, workforce people, and so on. Many students at UMass and UMass is the largest educational institution here. Many UMass students who live off campus um in Ammerst and in more distant towns
are in agreement with this and have been protesting because they want to live on campus. Next slide, please. Do you have some questions? We're going to take a pause and see if there's any questions for uh the
proposal to amend article 18. The questions would come from the council. Uh councelor Hani. Um, am I correct in reading this proposal as putting a thumb on the Hastings block
model as what the design standards should see, even though our consultants have been spending two years trying to figure out what the residents actually want for design standards? Um I would like to talk to those
consultants because um at the um you know the post-it meetings and that I went to I didn't come to the same conclusions that they did. I really saw a lot of people who liked the older style, the less international style. Um and I would like to review that housing
production which is over aundred pages long. Um and get more understanding of where they're coming from. But am I correct in saying your this proposal puts a thumb on the Hastings block as the design standards? No, we're not suggesting any particular
design standards. You say special consideration of the Hastings block model in this proposal. I think that would be a nice idea. That doesn't mean that that's what we're saying should be enacted. Are there any other questions or
comments at this time? Okay, then we're going to go on to um I'm sorry, Pam. At what point do we get to discuss referring this to the planning board and CRC as proposed? I'm going to go through both of them and
then we'll get back to that. Okay. Are there any other questions particularly about article 18? Andy? Yeah, I just have one question. Um, and
that is whether the uh whether Kitty has any uh knowledge of any impcoming plans or proposals uh to to build the housing that um is described as to be
affected. Could you could you repeat that? Is there any have you heard of any specific proposal for downtown development
that has not um that would be coming um if uh this uh delay is not put in place? No, I haven't. Okay. Are there any other questions?
Um Patangelos. Yeah. Um, looking at the housing production plan, um, there we had a housing production plan in 2013 that listed several of the same
strategies and proposals for housing and included um, family housing as well as rental housing. Um, not all rental housing goes to students, goes to graduate students, undergraduate
students, it goes to faculty, it goes to staff, it goes to workers at Stop and Shop, it goes to a lot of different people. And the problem that happened with the 2013 strategies
is none of them were they were limited in their implementation if implemented at all. So, I'm trying to understand um how prioritizing something that's already been prioritizing should
would make a difference this time round and why should we um I believe somewhere I had it in my notes. I can't find it right now. It said we're going to hold this up until these specific things are approved. And that uh kind of goes
against the I idea of a democracy in the sense that hundreds of people throughout the community participated in the housing production plan meetings etc. So I'm really uh we have a master plan that involved the full community.
That process is beginning again. Many of the strategies in the master plan have not been implemented by this town and the planning board. So I'm trying to understand why you want to stop
building four starting with large scale developments of four units or more. uh and so and we need housing, we need density, we need to uh build where we
can and really utilize and buildings and add to do modern additions to buildings that are there. So I'm having trouble with the idea of this moratorum. So, first of all, the 2013 plan, as I
understand from your recitation of it, did not include a definition of what student housing even is. And that would be first on the one of the first things on the agenda in order to actually implement any housing production plan that involves
um valuing year-round residents and valuing student residents as well. We have to define what a student is and a student house is just for the purpose of regulations. Not not in general. Oh, here's what a student is for everybody.
Here's what a student house is for everybody. Um the master plan, which has certainly been cherrypicked from, has never had the implementation committee that it was called for. And I've been told that it was not necessary. But I
think that if there had actually been a focus on implementing the master plan, we would have had some better and different results and I hope that we will in the future. As for um student housing, student housing happens to be
extremely profitable for real estate investors. Um with entire nationwide corporate entities focusing entirely or mostly on student housing for that very reason. And that's why
we're um wanting to define it and wanting to regulate it as so many other college towns have been doing. and somehow we've been busy with other things and haven't. I hope that is a decent response to your question, Pat.
Are there other questions or comments? Okay, then I'm going to ask uh Kitty if you would just please go on to the next part of the presentation, which is article 19, the proposed amendments. Okay. I have a little trouble with technology
these days. Well, always. Um, so wait a minute. The next slide is in support of article 19. Okay, next please. Article 19 says that the town should
zone for livability, affordability, and balance in neighborhoods that consist of single family and two family homes. both owner occupied homes and rental homes. And I have to mention that a lot and I
have some statistics here Pat about how many rental homes there are but it doesn't separate um students undergraduates or graduate students. It we don't have the data anyway. Um, yearround residents should
be valued and prioritized with more undergraduate students housed on campus as they say they want. The town should disincentivize sales of single family and two family homes in neighborhoods to limited liability real estate investors and it
should do so by taking these steps or other steps. You're welcome to make amendments. Next slide, please. State College Pennsylvania has had a licensing program for student homes
since 2013. Town residents and leadership there recognized that an imbalance between housing for students and housing for full-time or lifelong residents was damaging the town's economy as well as its livability. State College Pennsylvania recognized
the need to regulate off-campus student housing so that both students and long-term residents would thrive. But first, they had to define what a student home is in the context of dealing with student homes. Well, we do
too. This is the definition on the screen that was passed last year by the planning board, although it has not moved along yet. Next slide, please. Thank you. After defining a student home, we should incentivize the sale of single and two
family home to real estate investors. The real estate investment industry loves undergraduate students. And my conjecture is that a lot of students don't know their rights. They know that they're leaving soon and they're
otherwise preoccupied. They're studying. They're doing sports. They're building community of their own. The proposed bylaw lists three actions to disincentivize real estate speculation. First, college towns have
had some success with minimum distance requirements on local streets and collector streets. Second, the state legislator legislature is considering a rent stabilization bill. Third, student rentals of single family houses can work
when it's limited to main streets. Principal arterial streets like College Street, Main Street, Bay Road, North Pleasant Street. Those are examples of arterial streets, roads. Next slide, please. Next slide, please.
The purpose of this is to create a reasonable balance between housing for year-round residents who put down roots in their community and partial year residents. If we want to maintain and improve our public schools, our municipal services, our civic participation, and develop a
more robust robust downtown for all ages and incomes, we need to maintain long-term neighborhoods. And that means that we need to disincentivize LLC real estate investor purchases of and ownership of such a large quantity of student houses in our neighborhoods.
Next slide, please. Ammerst has about 5,200 single family homes, 680 of which are rented and 137 of those rentals are pretty clearly student rentals because they're owned by
LLC real estate investors. Ownership of homes for the purpose of profits drives up the cost of home ownership and the cost of renting and it changes stable neighborhoods into student oriented neighborhoods that lack diversity of age and civic engagement.
Ammeris rents are now comparable to rents in Somerville which is pretty amazing. Next slide please. So here we have it. The balance of year-round residents and students has changed dramatically over the last 20
years with the year- round p population reduced and the student population increased. We still have a population of 40,000 about but now we have 18,000 students living on campus and 9,000 students living off campus here in town.
That leaves about 30 13,000 fullyear residents. To me, that's a very delicate and staggering imbalance and pretty shocking. We've seen 859 new student style units in multi-story buildings. Many are rented by the bed
and in the neighborhoods, which is what this proposal is about. An increasingly larger percentage of single and two family houses have been bought as student rentals. Many of them by corporate investment entities. Some of them are nationwide corporations, as I mentioned before, that specialize in student housing
investment. Again, we need to rebalance the housing production plan that has not yet been passed in light of these demographics. And UMass can help tremendously by housing significantly more students on campus and on nearby university properties. Next student uh slide,
please. The definition provide of student home that's provided in the proposed bylaw was adopted by the planning board in December, but has not been included in our accessory dwelling unit zoning bylaw. Adding a definition
of student home to the zoning bylaw is the only way to keep track of our actual housing data. It's necessary for the town to be transparent and accountable about housing with information about the student rental market. We really need
that. The planning board has intentionally used language, by the way, to address people's concerns of n for nontraditional families and households. Next slide, please.
So there are there's a need to disinvent the disincentivize the LLC owned student rentals. And here are some tools to steer that kind of speculation away from what is called sometimes our captive student rental market. Captive and
lucrative. There are other tools, but the majority on the council have not put forward any zoning protections and it's time to do so. Next slide, please. One tool is minimum distance requirements. Like other approaches,
they mitigate nuisance issues, preserve and promote diversity and stability, and reduce pressure from speculators competing for an advantage. Requiring some distance between student rentals in other towns has helped prevent the town from reaching the tipping point where a
street shifts from mostly people and families establishing roots and long-term connections to mostly students who are transangent and who don't call Amoris their home. They call it the place that they live until graduation.
Sometimes they want to come back when they're older and have retired. It also reduces pressure from real estate investors. This is not anti- studentent. It is pro-stable year-round community, which really is nothing to be ashamed
about. Next slide, please. Distance requirements would probably have clauses establishing that they would be grandfathered in and would apply to new conversions into student houses, new construction of student houses, and transfers of student house
ownerships. Specific distance requirements generally vary by density in residential districts. Next slide, please. Rent stabilization. Well, rent stabilization stabilizes neighborhoods.
As a college town, Ammerst neighborhoods are subject to studentification, which happens when the tipping point is reached and large swaves of family homes are converted into student housing. By controlling the rate timing of rate
increases, it can help preserve the residential nature and economic diversity of community neighborhoods. It does encourage investment in properties by missiondriven developers, not profit driven developers so much like community
land trusts and other nonprofit or private developers who focus on neighborhood stability and see housing as a right, not housing as a commodity. Rent stabilization can also keep building and land sales prices from escalating dramatically due to
competition and speculation, making those nonprofit driven investments more feasible. Next slide, please. So, limiting student home rentals to principal arterial roads, the housing production plan under discussion names
Orchard Valley and East Ammeris neighborhoods as those with the lowest median home values. Neighborhoods with low home values are naturally targeted by LLC investors as financially desirable for student house rentals. Expensive homes in out of the way places
are not as desirable for speculators. We know that limiting new student rentals to principal or arterial roads is one way to consolidate student rentals on main streets. In some these proposals are offered to
encourage stable and affordable homes for diverse long-term populations rather than seeding control to market only student housing solutions or to benefit the university and the colleges that we love dearly.
Expansion of a university such as UMass can intensify speculation and result in displacement in the dis adjacent communities. I also believe that a year-round population is essential for a year-round economy, which I really think
we can all agree is good for the town. Do you have questions? Questions from the council on this particular article. Uh, Anna Delin Gothier. Thank you. Um Katie, you've certainly
given us a lot to think about and I'm sure we'll have lots of discussion about this in the coming months. I'm curious about one small thing. I'm looking at the the re I I am I will have many many more questions down the line but for our first initial conversation um you talked
about limitation of student home rentals to principal arterial roads and one of the things you talk about is the that the primary arter arterial roads are primary transit and public transportation routes and then you list several of those roads which have zero
public transit. Um and I'm I'm looking at several that are in my area my district specifically. So, um, sections of Southeast Street, sections of Bay Road and West Bay Road, there are a couple, uh, bus stops, but those I would not say are well served by public
transit versus areas that very much are, which tend to be the neighborhoods that you're talking about moving student housing out of. Um, and I have separate issues with that con conceptually, but I'm I'm just curious where you're getting the information about these being primary public transportation
routes and kind of how you overlaid that with those roads to get that to get that conclusion. Yeah, they were listed by the town of Ammerst as arterial road roads. And I I guess we need to separate what's the classic definition of an arterial road and then what are
considered arterial roads in Ammerst. And even though they don't have public transportation, they are main roads for getting from here to there rather than small neighborhood roads. So that I hope that um answers your question.
Well, okay. So, it was the DPW that defined those 11 roads as arterial. I understand that those are all arterial roads. I'm curious about um whether the DPW provided a definition that included
arterials uh as defined as having robust public transit. I'm unfamiliar with that particular part of the definition. Yeah, I'm not familiar with it either. Um, so I'd have to look look that up. It's a great question. Yeah, that's that was the piece of information I was trying to figure out and I didn't question that those were
art arterial roads. I've seen those maps as well. Okay, thank you, Councelor Hani. Um yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but um I'm going to focus two questions um for you that you may be able to
answer and clarify. Um but maybe not with one of them. Uh my first one is while you were giving your presentation um you talked about welcome to make amendments um and um something like minimum distance requirements you
referenced or you said quote would probably have clauses that would and then you went on um that seemed to imply that um this is not the language that's in front of us that you're asking us to
adopt uh or send a hearing for an adoption. of this specific language for article 19 is not actually what you see as um enforceable or um final language that um
is clear enough to um and unambiguous and precise. Um, do you actually see this more as a proposal for discussion in instead of the language that should be adopted to be
enforced by someone? Well, my experience in watching meetings of the town council and other committees is that proposals, zoning proposals in Ammerst go through a tremendous process of review and change. hundreds no
thousands maybe of changes always seem to be part and parcel of zoning proposals as as you are well aware um so we this is a citizens petition it's not um
for these proposals and it's not written in stone because I know that the town council will want to make many changes and refinements I guess I should reward my question Um cuz I wasn't clear. The council during public hearings and planning board
during public hearings always refineses language, but the public hearing starts with a proposal that in its own sense is adoptable and clear, precise, and um unambiguous
generally. And you mentioned if you're talking about minimum distance requirements, you mentioned something like, oh, that would probably have clauses such as something as if um you know or admit that what is in
front of us to adopt or to send for presentation for adoption is not unambiguous and needs more fleshing out. That doesn't look like this. And so I guess that's my question. Are is this
something you believe could be adopted and then be clear, unambiguous, and enforceable? Are you talking about or are you thinking this is something that would start is is something that is like what the ADU bylaw was before it was
sent to hearing when the planning board spent months on it 7 8 almost a year actually before they presented something to us to send a public hearing or is this in a form that you think is ready for public hearing because it's already been fully formed
for all that time. So, is this the pre-public hearing portion if if I equate this to the ADU or is this is your goal the pre-public port public hearing portion like the ADU was or the post public or the public hearing portion if you're thinking about the ADU
equivalent? Okay. I'm not thinking of equivalents and this is a citizens citizens proposal. It's not a proposal coming from town hall. It's not a proposal coming from one or more counselors. This
is a citizens proposal. So, and we are absolutely open to amend all amend open to all amendments friendly that is um my next question as you know the fair housing laws um
prohibit discrimination on family status. When I read this definition of student home, the only difference between a student home and a non- studentent home to me is whether you are unrelated by blood, marriage or legal
adoption. Because if you are related by blood, marriage or legal adoption, if you have a student in your home, you are not a student home. But if you are not if you are not related by blood marriage or legal adoption and you have a student in your home um you are you are a
student home. So the student home is not based on whether you're attending this definition is not based on whether you're attending school to determine whether you're a student home. It's based on um family status. And so um can
can you tell me how that would not violate the fair housing laws? Well, first of all, this is the this is the definition that the planning board after much considerate consideration and deliberation
has passed. It has not been passed by the town council yet. It's a really sticky issue. It's a really very difficult one. We decided that the best thing to do was to use the definition that has been passed by the planning board of Ammerst.
We're not we're not really smarter than all those discussions among the planning board people. They you know they've really tried hard and this is based on the dis the um definition of student homes for the regulation of student
homes in state college Pennsylvania. As I said before, this is not like just like a broad definition of what is a student and what is a student home. This is for the basis of how to regulate student homes. And you can't just like say, well, we can't regulate student
homes because it's really hard to define what a student home is. We're doing the best that we can. The planning board did the best that it can and we're open to friendly amendments. Kathy Shane, I think I have a simpler question,
Kitty, but I'm not sure. Um, when when you talk about the distance between in a neighborhood, um, and then you talk about arterial roads, uh, a couple of the arterial roads go up to District 1. So, East Pleasant, for example, has no
sidewalks. um and it's listed. North Pleasant has uh historic homes along it which a lot of which are student rentals. Would those distances apply along those roads or is that only in the
smaller offerial road neighborhood? That's my question. You know, the distance between Well, I think it it it's not going to be an easy an easy thing to define. And I remember when um there was a proposal
about cutting back on municipal street lights and there was a lot of discussion street by street, corner by corner, you know, which one should be dark, which one should be, you know, lit up somewhat, which one should be well lit.
Um, and I think that would depend on mostly on density, um, which is what other towns have done with their minimum distance requirements. Thanks. Yeah. Um Kathy, did you have any other question at this time?
My hand just didn't go down all by itself. I'll take it down. Uh Jennifer, um yes, I want to thank um Kitty very much for her presentation. uh you know we're we're a hard audience but um I I I believe that this bylaw
that has been proposed whether you agree with it or not is specific enough that it could be referred to the planning board. So it says for minimum distance 700 to 2,000 ft. I mean that's that
that's giving that's a wide range and yes this is a citizens petition they don't have the staff to you know present a 100page bylaw or whatever it a zoning proposal but that gives I'm I'm sure
that reflects research of in other college towns in state college they have different distances for different districts but the point being also that when you have if you have to have there and we all know what a student house is.
So, we've been this is I I really think the sentiment in town is very much to address all these issues and we can get down to the letter versus the spirit of these proposed bylaw amendments, but we
are really out of step I think with the majority of residents who live here who want something done. So to sit here and say, "What's a student house?" We we can come up with a definition for a student house. I mean, I can walk you through my neighborhood and show you which houses are rented every year and have always
been rented to students and we can debate, you know, what that is. It's it's not so ambiguous. But um what we also do in in towns that have minimal distances is let's say in some neighborhoods it's every it comes out
they do a certain number of feet but maybe it comes out to every third house can be a student house. Well the houses in between if the owners want to rent them they have to rent to non- studentent households and they probably can't price those houses at $1,000 to
$1,200 a bed. So, it creates a real incentive for there to be rental housing that is priced for non- studentent households who don't share the rent. If you're a single parent with three children, your children are not paying
for their bedrooms. You have to pay the full rent. So it would if we had you know if something like this were adopted in Ammerst that would be an incentive for the houses that are be the rental houses between the student houses to be rented at a price that non- studentent
households who don't share the rent can afford. Um and I think what we've been our conversation in the years I've been on the council is just you know um upzone create more density you know have regular have it be easier to get have
permits and you just you know without any incentives that that housing not be for students all the housing that all the multifamily housing that has been built with private money since I've been on the council and before is priced for
students and there are we have 9,000 students living off campus in Ammeris now and the housing production plan consultant has said there are thousands more living off campus outside of Amherst that want to move here. So this is something whether this these two bylaws are worded exactly the way you
think they should be. These bylaws their time has come for the town to address this. So, I appreciate that they're brought forward, even if we, you know, I don't think there's any one of us that probably agrees with every word that's
in the bylaw, but as Kitty said, we know that they will change many times if they're referred, and I think they have to be referred to the planning board and perhaps also to CRC. Thank you, Pat D'Angelus. Thank you. Um I I want to say there are
several things in article 19 that I find interesting and ideas of disincentivizing um LLC's from u buying rent stabilization. Uh I'll have more to say about that
later. Uh but that is something that's critical and important. Um, but I want to say something more personal because I hear we all know what student housing is
and I look at the definition given by the naive community that is not naive. It's a wonderful smart community and know how they know how to write things uh whether they're perfect or not and the planning board's definition.
I moved to Ammerst with my partner Carol and my our three-year-old son. I was studying at Smith College for my BA as an Ada Commtock S scholar and I
well no when we first moved I was at GCC and then uh I'd got my master's my BA and my masters at Smith. Uh, Carol and I were unrelated. Jesse was not related to her by
adoption. He was my blood. We were, by this definition, a student home, a student house. We were in our 40s. Carol was working full-time. I was working part-time going to school and we
were raising our son who she couldn't claim for years because adoption was illegal in Massachusetts. So, I'm sorry that this is such a personal response, but your idea of what a student house is
is demeaning to many, many people, including students. Pam Rooney. Uh, I'd like to address the the student house just for a moment. Um, I think a number of speakers mentioned that
it's not so much anti- studentent, it is pro- yearround resident. And these topics need a much deeper discussion. They deserve time from the planning board to put together something that
actually works in this town. We are decades behind communities um like State College who had a similar issue with the imbalance of more and more homes turning over into I'll call it short-term
rentals because they're 9-month rentals. It undermines the fabric of the community and we are now at about a third of the population total being year-round residents. That to me is something that I brought up four years
ago as one of my top priorities. I am very pleased that there were some people with guts in the community to take this upon themselves to start to address some of these details
that we have skimmed over to date. Um when I read the the housing production plan I was extremely concerned to hear the to read the statement that there were like
9,000 additional students beyond the 9,000 plus already living in the community. There are an apparently an an additional 9,000 students waiting in the wings living in surrounding communities
who can't wait to move into Ammeris and that somehow we are supposed to provide housing for that for that builtup latent desire. There are lots of details that need to be worked out. I want to give the
planning board and the CRC the chance to work through those and come up with something that does help Ammerst regain and and at least at least hold on to um the year your own population that we have now. Thank you
Anna Delin Gothier. Thank you. I there are two sticking points for me and there well there there are two emergent sticking points for me um with this and I I think I'm I'm in support of
continued discussion on it. Um but right now I would not support this. I think that I I have a lot of questions about the idea of restricting student homes, which is defining that separate issue, to these
arterial roadways. And I'm I'm I'm very stuck on that. Um, and I think that, you know, the the bylaw references the um housing production I have so many tabs open at this point, but the housing production plan um citing Orchard Valley
and a couple areas in East Ammerst as lower median income and those are absolutely neighborhoods that the housing prices might be lower in and we want to support, you know, availability of single family homes for folks who would like to purchase them uh as a as a single family or as an individual.
But I do worry that um you shared some of your anecdotal thoughts, Kitty, and and I'm going to share some of mine. Some of my anecdotal thoughts are driving along those exact arterial roadways that you're talking about, you're seeing some of the only other single family homes that are not
outrageously expensive. And so my concern is that we are not actually solving that issue. We're just moving it elsewhere. And that uh for me that feels that feels problematic. So I'm not convinced that that measure actually is
fixing anything by moving the by by restricting to a certain area. And and I shared some of my other concerns earlier about the way the lack of transportation on some of those roadways and um etc. I also think that, you know, Pat, your
your comment was very powerful and it it's it uh one of the things that I've been mulling is Jennifer, I I don't disagree with you that we all could go and look at a house and say, "Okay, I could probably guess who lives there." But in doing so, we
are all playing exactly right into our assumptions about what we think we know about student housing. And we might be right, we might be wrong. But when it comes down to specific definitions that are written out in our bylaws, we need to make sure we aren't accidentally
creating our own version of redlinining in our community. We need to make sure we're not accidentally creating a net that is so wide that we're catching people that we don't intend to catch. And this definition as written absolutely catches way too many people that are not uh contributing to the
issue that you're trying to solve here. So I I do while I understand the idea that we all might look at something and say, "Hey, I think this could be better." Our bylaws are are need to be written with extreme care so that they don't accidentally cause harm.
And I don't feel that this the way it's written does that. I think this would cause harm. And so that is that is my concern with um with that. I don't have a solution um for it. I think that this is I wish I did, but I think that this
is really challenging um in terms of the problem to solve, which is why I think it's hasn't moved in the past um is is because to try to define something that solves the problem you're identifying is a really tiny needle to thread. So, I'll I'll keep thinking on it, but I I have
serious concerns about the the way that the those two provisions specifically are written. We need clarification for the president. Yes. You had wanted questions at this time and then we were going to go back to conversation. I I I just want to make sure.
Yep. What the plan is, right? Um the plan at this point I think is we should begin with emotions. But before that um some other people have wanted to speak and I want to do that but then cut it off. Uh the other thing that I think
some other people are very uh questioning is our legal opinion and I want to make sure that we have time for that too. Okay. Uh Jennifer. Yeah. I do just want to comment this two comments were mentioned to me. The reason they're student homes is because
the people who own them also define them that way. They are rented to students. I mean, it's just it like ever since I've been on the council, the community is really concerned that our year-round population
is declining. We there we you know, it's like we know student houses, I know you may not have a lot of them on your street in your neighborhood, but they are student houses because they are rented to students every year and the people that
own them say that they are student houses. And when they ask to add another unit on when the the developers you know or the investors are clear that they are have adding units on to rent to students
because they are home they are properties that they rent to students. There's no mystery. There's no looking at a house and say well it looks that way. That is how the owners defined them. And that is in fact who lives there when every September a different
different roommates move into the house. So it's not a mystery and it's not um casting aspersions. It's just a fact and it's you know it's not even good or bad. It's just a fact. And those houses are not they are priced by the bedroom and
so they're very expensive too expensive for the students who live there but at least they are sharing expenses. They are completely out of reach to non- studentent households. Okay, I'm going to move on to the motions.
And the first motion is actually the one that speaks to a moratorum. Okay, the motion is as follows. In accordance with Mass General Law, Chapter 4A, paragraph 5, to refer proposed zoning bylaw,
article 18, temporary pause for one year on applications for building permits for construction of residential buildings with four or more dwelling units, pending completion of design standards, adoption of the housing production plan,
and related actions to the planning board uh for public hearing within in 65 days and report to the town council to community resources committee for public hearing and recommendation to the town council and to governance organization
legislation for the final review of clarity, consistency and actionability. Is there a second? Second. Okay. Now, councilors, this is the one we're going to speak to and to the
extent that we can stick to that, I think would be wise. Andy. Well, thank you. I will try and stick um pretty much to 18, though you can't exactly separate the two entirely for
the obvious reason that I'm stating my concerns about 18. Uh but I want to first start by um thanking Kitty for her presentation and uh the group for bringing this issue
out in public. I think this is an important issue and uh there and it's u we're discussing it because it was brought forward. So there's a thank you in that. Um, I think that there's a
conflict actually between 18 and 19. And um, the reason I say that is that 18 has to do with building housing for students that is not in neighborhoods and doesn't
affect uh the neighborhoods. 19 is all about neighborhoods and the effect that it has on turning um current uh what could be family housing into rental
housing. And um it's for that reason that I think that it's really I was waiting until this stage to talk about this because I really want to uh make sure that we focus on on both on the
issue that we're talking about in 19 and I'm afraid 18 is becomes a distraction which is one of the reasons why I asked the question when I did under 18 was we were asking questions as to whether
there are any known developments in central business district that would be affected by a moratorum and it didn't seem that there were any. Um there a couple of other things that I want to bring out since I so I can just
cover is they cover everything and not have to come back again to be recognized again. Um, one of them is that there is a reality that um, there are more students in the
area than can be absorbed on campus. We would like to see the university build more housing. I think that we also have to recognize that there are impediments to the university being able to do that because of its own financial
circumstances and the need to get bonding to do so. And uh in any event, it would take a significant period of time to have that happen. So that there's this risk that
in talking about this in having this you know we we we aren't going to get a solution from the university very soon and that should be recognized by all and um students aren't going to disappear. They are here. they're part
of our community and uh so they they will not uh they it's just not something that's going to go away because we passed something. Um the uh other things that I wanted to bring up
is that it's very it's very important that we think about the planning board and making sure that it has the time to handle issues. we refer that direction and is able to focus on the issues at
hand. So I has a concern that if we refer both 18 and 19 that their time gets scattered between the two. And I really think that it's important to sort of say which one is more likely to be
successful and which one is a higher priority and u recognize that it may be a better tactic uh to get some results somewhere by referring one but not both for that very reason. And the last thing
that I just want to point out uh since it gets thrown around a lot is that u a lot of student housing is owned by individuals. It is not owned by LLC's. And uh people look at sales and say,
"Oh, it's being sold to an LLC LLC, so it's being converted to student housing." That's likely to be true. But if you take a look at your own neighborhoods and know which of the student rentals in your neighborhood um
and then see if they're LLC's, um I did it and everyone in my neighborhood that is a student rental I know is a student rental is not an LLC. So I would encourage um some thought to
be given to just dropping that reference because I don't think that it's helpful to the discussion. So in conclusion um I don't think that 18 accomplishes much um at this time. I think that it's
going to take time away from the planning board and focus away from the planning board. So, while we're on a motion to 18, that's my consideration. Thank you, Kathy.
Well, that's an interesting statement that I hadn't thought of, Andy. So, I don't know whether you're asking that the people who have proposed it might want to withdraw one of the two um and just have one go forward. I read the the
Massachusetts law that governs the ability of 10 citizens, 10 residents to bring a proposed zoning law. The last sentence of the paragraph says shall refer to the planning board for consideration, for review. It doesn't
say maybe we'll do it. It says shall. And we've in the past had debates about shall. We did get a legal memo. The legal memo is a little bit difficult to read, but in between all of it, it says shall mean shall. Um, it doesn't mean
maybe and and it gives one example of if you said it has to be done in 14 days and it takes you 15 days, that might be okay, but shall is still shall. Um so in this case I think we need to refer both
of these unless the proponents want to say what is a priority and it should go first. I just have a question on the second part. Do we have to hold a public hearing? And this is a question rather than a statement because again I read
the way it's written that um the planning board can deliberate about it. It doesn't have to hold it. Only it's if it's going to move forward with this as a proposal, would it have to hold a public hearing? So, it could be discussion. So, it's a question um of
the way I read it. The motion says, our motion says public hearing. I'm not sure we have to say that. And that's a I'm Lynn asked me if I wanted to amend it and I don't know if I'm reading the MGL
4A section 5 correctly, but I don't read it as requiring a public hearing, but I do read it as requiring a referral. So, it's a two issues. I think Andy, you were suggesting one might be withdrawn in favor of the other. Otherwise, we've
got two that I think we have to refer. Jennifer. Yeah, that was my question as well because I know I wasn't on the council then, but in 2021, I think uh Kitty may have referred to it. There was um a moratorum, a bylaw
change petition filed. It was for a temporary moratorum I think on new constructions of a certain size downtown. Um it was this it also had 10 or more residents. And the KP law opinion said regarding the petition by
the residents, well this was a memo I think actually Lynn that you had written you know going back to in from 2021 that said the town attorney is advised that this is a nondiscretionary action. It is just strictly an administrative
function. So administratively it has to be referred to the planning board. At least that's what seemed to be the KP law ruling in 2021. it didn't say then the planning board could determine whether it was written properly or
however they wanted to handle it but that the council didn't um have any discretion that it had to be referred to the planning board. So I just wanted to ask if I would if that ruling would seem it applies here as well. Is there any reason
that's what I was referring to the law actually is pretty clear the regulation. So that's why I'm just wondering why we're discussing this. I guess it I believe it. I I will have to say that um having asked for the legal opinion
this time uh I read it as being pretty confusing as well. Uh and even as ear as recently as 6:00 tonight, I asked the town manager whether or not we could have the town attorney at our meeting tonight and we were not able to contact
her. Um it the um I mean it doesn't seem confusing because based on before it wasn't confusing, right? I I hear you. Um the there is a motion on the floor. The motion is
regarding this first one which is 18. Uh and I'm going to continue taking questions. Pam, more a statement. I was going to say something very similar to what Jennifer just mentioned that in the past the very similar situation was treated like a a
essentially um an administrative action non-discretionary um I would like to see this referred. I understand that there's a lot of work to be done in sort of refining the the target. It's a It's a pretty broad
target right now, but um the effort I'd like to see some of the effort and attention to this uh item be spent, you know, dealing with that issue rather than um just trying to ward off a a referral action tonight. So, I
appreciate if if this could get referred. Thank you. Thank you, Councelor Ryan. So, first of all, I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one who after reading that uh KP Law statement was totally
flumxed and confused. Um, so I'm getting the sense, but only a sense that whatever we do tonight, this gets referred. But I still think there is a place for the vote in the sense that the council can send a clear message if it chooses
to the planning board that at least this article 18 is a very very bad idea. Um in the time of a widespread housing crisis in the state in which we just had an article featured in the Gazette um of a of statewide report a second report in
a series of reports about the housing crisis. Um we are going to put a freeze on building permits in our downtown. The downtown that has actually and the buildings in it that have enabled us for the last almost 14 years to avoid
overrides. So um if it turns out that this is just an administrative vote and this gets to go to planning board anyway, I would urge my colleagues to vote against it to send a clear message to the planning board that this is a terrible idea. I also believe that when it gets to the planning board, it is
DOA. Um, but I think we need to send that message and I hope my colleagues will support me. I have different thoughts about the second amendment and I'll get to that when we get around to it. Alicia, I'm sorry, Councelor Walker.
Um, thank you, Lynn. I um I would have to dis agree with Councelor Ryan in that this is a bad proposal. I mean, I think it definitely needs some editing and some fleshing out and a lot more conversation, but I want to first start
by saying that I feel very grateful to live in a town where the residents are thinking critically about the issues that we're facing as a town. Um, and we may not have the data or the information that we need at the time to have this be a perfect proposal. Um, but I but the sentiment of what you all are trying to
do really resonates with me and and we are facing a housing crisis in this town and I do think that the type of housing that we built we build, how it's built, who it's built for, all of those things are going to shape who is going to be able to live in our town in the future. Um, and I think that that's critically
important to to understand. Like I' I've lived here since the '9s and I've seen a max a mass exodus of families, especially low-income families. And so if we're thinking about what we're building, how we're building it, what just what that all entails and we're
doing that a little bit more intentionally, we might be able to shape our town to include more of those families to be more friendly for low-income residents, senior housing, like it it's just about intentionality. And so I don't think that this is a bad idea at all. Um, I do think it has a lot
of flaws, but this came from a bunch of residents, and I I just feel really grateful that you all took the time uh to put work into this. Um, I do also just want to mention just um this idea of like encouraging UMass to build more student housing, which I think is also
critically important. Um, but I have recently um heard from students and you know I I am also a student but I've never lived uh on campus because I've also been I've always been a student parent and full-time resident at the same time. Um, and I've learned that
it's more expensive for students to live on campus. And so I think that that's another important thing to address that necessar that building more student housing on campus wouldn't necessarily or solve our issue because it is more inexpensive for students to all join
together and rent a house in town. Um and so I think it's just a little bit more uh complicated and multiaceted uh than than we would be able to uh sort of flesh out here in this meeting and without any additional data. But I but that's why I think it's important for us
to refer it to the planning board because I think that that's what needs to be done. I I don't think that this is perfect as is. I don't think it could pass asis, but I do really appreciate and agree with the sentiment of what you all are trying to do. Councelor Hani,
I agree with basically everything Councelor Ryan said, but I want to add a couple of things. Um, it is my understanding that a public hearing is for proposals that are fleshed out and ready to be voted on.
And all I've I've heard a lot of from counselors and from the proponent. There's a lot of things that could change. There's a lot of things that haven't been decided. There's things that we're not sure about. That's not a fully fleshed out proposal that is due for a public hearing where um you're not
supposed to be drafting the bylaw in a public hearing. You have to amend it. You have to revise it, but you shouldn't be basically starting from scratch. Um I'll stop there because I'll say more about that when we get to the other one, but I don't believe this is
ripe for public hearing at all. Um, I won't vote to send it to CRC. The law does not require sending it to CRC. I definitely will not vote to send it to CRC for a public hearing. I will not vote to send it to go. It would be a waste of time at this point in time for
both of those. Um, it is unclear from the legal opinion we got whether we must vote yes. Completely unclear. And and to Cathy's point, the law is unclear whether the vote requires a vote to go to public
hearing or just to send it to the planning board. Completely unclear law. Um flaws in this proposal. Special consideration of the Hastings block model. We hired consultants to do
a whole lot of outreach regarding design standards in our downtown. And this proposal basically says throw that out and use the Hastings block. My reading of course um complete disregard of everyone who
participated in the design standards public participation methods for the last two years. The next point prioritizing opportunities for year-round mixed incomes housings in a housing production plan. Again admitted to amend the
housing production plan. a housing production plan that has already been adopted by the planning board in its current state and amending it to that sense. I I won't say we'll disregard all the public comments that went in because
I don't know whether it would but it would disregard what the planning board has already adopted. a pause for 5,000 additional students on campus uh uh agreement with the university as many others have mentioned
um there are 9,000 students living off campus not in Ammerst 5,000 additional beds while worthy and great would probably not change much of the calculus of what's going on in Ammerst outside of the student
housing but beyond that there's no timeline line on this one. So, there could be an agreement for 30 years from now that a one-year moratorum will address nothing by those are the flaws I see just off the top of my head. So, given the motion as
it stands here, I will be voting no. Councelor Ete, I just had a question. Is this particular what are we voting on? We are voting on the first um motion and it is the motion regarding
article 18 and it's been made and seconded and that is the one with regard to a moratorum. Yes. So I'm wondering what the effect of the vote is. It's I hear that it's supposed to be a referral. Do we need to
refer or are we discussing the merits? I'm going to call on the town manager. Can you put the motion on the screen also? We're trying to so I I think the um the town attorney
tried to put into words what her recommendation was, but clearly the council does did not she did not make it clear enough. I think I think there are no consequences to the council if you don't refer. And that's an odd thing to say, but that's that's I think that's there are
no that's why if you don't refer, then there there's no provision for a penalty or override or anything like that. I think you're probably better off talking to the town attorney directly and and I and I did she she's unavailable tonight. So I did I did
reach her right and at the same time we have to act on this within the required 14 days. So uh Kathy I'm wait a minute let me see who's next. Uh Kathy go ahead. So my my point
earlier I wasn't very clear but what the law says in the last we wrote someone wrote this motion if it stopped with um refer to the planning board for
review period. We don't have to refer for a public hearing in 365 days and community resource. It could just say refer to the planning board for review and that is the exact wording of the statute. We wouldn't be invented
anything here. That's the last sentence. Are you making a motion to amend the motion? Uh yes, I and I will do the same with the other one. I don't understand why all the additional wording is put on it. We're not talking about the other one. Let's just stick but I would do with the same one. So
when fra councelor ete asked what we're voting on my concern with this is it goes further than what we have to for an administrative referral which is just we're supposed to refer this to the planning board for review. So am I
reading you are placing in motion the following in accordance with Mass General Law Chapter 4A paragraph 5 to refer proposed zoning bylaw article 18 temporary pause for one year and applications for building
permits for construction of residential buildings with four or more dwellings pending completion of design standards adoption of housing production plan and related actions to the planning board for review period. Exactly. I mean I It's usually the
This is a motion to amend. It requires a second. Is there a second? I'll second that. Okay. And are there to We're now discussing the motion to amend. Not the full
motion, but the motion to amend. U Kathy, you made that. You also made some comments already. Would you like to go ahead and make any more? Yes, I just wanted I wanted to simplify it. Um, and I did send the full text of
40A section 5. And what I just read out is the last sentence shall refer council shall refer to the planning board for review. So I wanted to have it be with and I'm just looking at the B the board of selectmen or city council shall
within 14 days of receipt of such a zoning ordinance submit it to the planning board for review. So that is the simple version of what we're required to do and what George said and it's administrative referral. That's what it is. We are supposed to review
it. That's why I suggested amending it to Okay. U like to ask the the clerk of the town council to actually put the motion up and show the amendment. Okay. And that amendment struck everything after the word after the
comma for public hearing within 65 days. That was all struck. And in doing so, the only addition was to say for review. So, the motion, the amendment that has been moved and seconded is on the screen
and that's what we're speaking to. Um, Jennifer, yeah, I just want to say this is with I mean, all due respect, um, I don't understand how we could not have gotten a clear reading before tonight's meeting from the town attorney and particularly
I wasn't on the council in 2021, but for those of you who were, you remember, if you got if you received clear direction on a former citizen petition that required 10 or more signatures, and this t the same town attorney that wrote
us today I believe is who issued the opinion before that it had to be referred and it's important because we can't decide not to do something that we legally have to do. So, I I'm just questioning how we aren't clear on what
is legally required of us or if we are, I'm I I'm not hearing it, what what that direction is. But it it just shouldn't I don't understand why there's ambiguity at this point. Jennifer, all I can say is I share your
frustration having asked for the legal opinion in the middle of last week. Thank you. Uh, Mandy Joe, councilor Hani. Yeah. Um, I'll just address that. My memory is that for the prior citizen
petition, resident petition, we did not ask for a legal review. We read the word shall and made assumptions. I'll I'll just say that. That's my memory. I could be wrong that that did not get a legal review. And then hold on, I'm not done. Um, and then when the planning board did
the same thing, I'm not sure we asked for a legal review, but we were told again, exact same wording here because they're all encompassed under the same as as something else said. We were told it's our decision, not a mandate, and
that we could choose not to refer back to the planning board that just sent it to us for review, which would just be essentially a circular thing, I guess, which is also kind of weird. Um, so, um, I think between those two, it finally
dawned on us that we should get a legal opinion because that one we did not refer back to the planning board for review or hearing or anything even though it's the exact same language because they're encompassed in the same section 5. So I think that's what in resulted in us asking for the review
this time because we have actually acted differently despite the same language in two different ones. So what I have here is a the day after your council meeting, Lynn as council president asked KP Law
and then she wrote to the council the next day and said the legal opinion is that we it's not discretionary. It has to be administratively referred. So you might not have known that at the council meeting, but you did get that
information the next day. And actually in Lynn's email to the council, she says she's referring it to the planning board, CRC and go. And it may be that we don't have to refer it to CRC and go, but that's what happened. You got a legal opinion the next day after the
council meeting. Thank you, Jennifer. Uh, George, Council Ryan, so this amendment doesn't really change my position. Um, however this plays out, however it finally gets decided, I still think that I hope my colleagues will
vote against this. Um, because it's still a bad idea. Um, it's still exactly the wrong message we want to send. Um, and so I still urge you uh to vote no.
Count uh Andy Steinberg. Yes. I guess um what I would suggest is that there's an alternative to what councelor Ryan has suggested and that is to go ahead and make the referral for review as um has been
suggested by the amendment which is in conformance with the exact language in the statute as point she pointed out uh council Shane pointed out and then allow a second motion
um from the floor that would allow that would be a statement that um well we have made this referral. We uh are not recommending um positive action. I think if you
really want to do it maybe you have to separate those two thoughts because they're two different purposes. Um, okay. We're dealing with a motion that has been amended and it's the amendment that we are dealing with. If there's a second motion after this, that's a
different issue. Can I have a cl on clarification? This was a motion to amend, not a substitute. So, this is just to change the language. This is not to adopt the actual motion. Is that correct? That's correct. This is a motion to
amend. Are there any? S Elicia Councelor Walker, I'm sorry. Can we put the amendment back up? Okay. Okay. This is the motion before you. It's a motion to amend. It is not the
final motion. If we vote to amend the motion, we will come back for the factual vote on the motion. Does that make clear? All we're doing is agreeing to a change in language. We're not agreeing to the
motion. I'm going to call the question. So, this is the motion before you. We're going to begin with councelor I. Lyn Griemer is an I. Councelor Hani I. Bob Haggner is absent. Councelor Lord
I. Pam Rooney. Yes. Councelor Ryan. Hi. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Hi. Jennifer Tob. Yes. Councelor Walker. Yes. Pat D'Angelus.
I. Anna Develin Gothier. Hi. It's unanimous. We're now moving to the motion. The motion to adopt this is on the screen that you it is in fact now the amended motion.
Are there any other questions or comments? Councelor Et still like further clarification on what the distinction between a yes or a no vote would be in this case. If if you vote yes, then you will be saying yes,
send this to the planning board. If you vote no, you're voting against sending it to the planning board. But the previous motion that just passed was one that more or less says that we are obliged to send it to planning
board. Correct. That was a discussion. That was not a motion. The motion that just passed changed the motion on the floor to better comport with the language in the MGL chapter 48 section 5 that said for review. Okay.
Okay. And it also removed the referral from CRC and go. Kathy, yeah, I would just make a point that saying that voting to say we are not referring
uh would could be challenged, a legal challenge. I mean, this is there's a clear direction here. So, I understand what Andy did on if you want to make a sentiment about this, we could do that in a separate way, but it could just be
an administrative referral, but we've got a motion on the floor. So, I'm saying that if you're required by the law to do something and you don't do it, what? No, no, it's not a civil penalty, but we could have This is This is It says 10
residents can bring this and shall refer within X days. That's what the law says. So, I'm I'm just saying there's a consequence to saying I don't want to refer. There is a consequence. I'm not sure it would happen, but there's a consequence.
Councilor Ryan, I believe the town manager just said that at least his understanding is there are no consequences. So, are there consequences or are there not? I'm going to vote no matter what. I I'll pay the fine. I'll go to prison. I don't care. Um but if if there's an
administrative decision and the vote is just a sham, then why are we having the vote? So um I thought I heard him say based on his understanding that the of the legal review there are no consequences uh to this vote for the council which would include me since I'm
on the council. So again I would urge my colleagues to vote no if they think that this moratorium is a bad idea which I think it is um and unless I hear from somebody definitively that that I have no choice and that this is just a sham
um I plan to vote no. Pam, the last time it was a moratorum vote with something like 900 petitioners. This time it's a citizen petition with
more than 10. So, it met the requisite number. Um, I'm very I'm very pleased to see action from the citizens. What it tells me, however, is that we, the council, have not been bringing forward
appropriate modifications to our bylaws and zoning to deal with the issue that is growing in town. I appreciate the fact that they took the initiative. I am definitely going to vote to refer
because that is the correct reflection of this process. they are allowed to bring petitions forward and I do think it's our responsibility to acknowledge that
councelor Hanniki the counselors that campaigned on these two items had every right to bring them for the last two or or seven years and chose not to Um,
the counselors that campaigned on increasing housing opportunities have brought motions to try and address and bylaws that to try and address our housing crisis. And this council has not um received been very receptive to
councelor written zoning proposals. Um, but neither here or there. Um, this motion requires a majority present and voting to pass. Um, I would like to know if this passes
and how the vote vote is um, reported to the planning board. For example, if it passes because only two people vote and the rest abstain, will it be presented as an unanimous vote or a unanimous of two with 10
abstensions for I'm I'm making something crazy up here. Um, and is that I I asked this because I am, as many people know, after seven years, I think I could count on one hand the number of times I have abstained from a vote. Um, I am not one
that regularly abstains, but it is maybe a way out of this fix that instead of voting no when the law says shall, those of us that disagree with even the planning board reviewing this because of
whatever reason abstain from voting and that abstension might be seen as the same thing that councelor Steinberg potentially proposed instead of as a second vote. And so I'd ask how would this be sent
over to the planning board if it does pass? Athena, we usually report council actions following council meetings. Then we could include the the language the council voted and the vote quantum in that report
including how many abstained. But if there are 12 of us in the meeting and 10 people abstained, does it pass? That was the question on the motion to refer. The motion sheet literally says majority present in voting is the required
quantum. Right. But if you abstain abstain is not a vote. Not a vote. Okay. All right. We'll begin with the MO. Please put the motion on the screen. This is the motion we're actually voting on.
Jennifer, I still have a question. If we all abstained, it would still get referred. No, that would fail. It doesn't have to be referred. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the response. Is that a question?
Yeah. I mean, does it There's we have no legal requirement to refer it. Is that what I'm hearing? Or is that just maybe we don't? The word shall is shall
I I I agree, but that's not I'm being told that we don't have to. There's no consequence. So, we should, but there's no consequence if we don't. I I'm I'm this is I'm just asking for you know it's just
still very unclear to me if so if we all voted no or we all abstained it would not go to the planning board Paul Bacham yeah I think I think what Jennifer just said you should but if you don't there are no consequences there isn't a
provision in the law that says this will happen to you if you don't vote so and there's nothing no way to compel someone to vote vote if they choose not to participate in the action just like any other action for the council. But it might be that it would be referred anyway. I mean, if it has to be
referred, it gets referred whether we individually want it to or not. I think the argument would be if the if the law intended that they would have said that right now with the way the way the law written and I think we all agree that it's not the best written law. It's that it the council must shall refer is
how it's and so what if the council doesn't refer? That's the question and I don't I don't know the answer to that question. So the there was a an amendment proposed to footnote M and the council voted not to refer it and it didn't move forward to the planning board.
But it wasn't a citizen it wasn't from the citizens. This has a different if it said the same statute. It's the same statute. It's the same that was different that came from and it came from the planning board. Yes, it came from a different source,
but the language in the law is the same. So, in the town attorney's um opinion, she spoke a little bit about the difference in those two situations, but the language in MGL chapter 48 section 5
treats those two things the same way. Okay. But she didn't in 2021. The same, not just the same firm, but the same attorney. I'll stop. I want to speak to the issue of no consequences. There are always consequences.
Whether it's legal or whether it is how people feel, there's always consequences. And legal, if there's a legal challenge, it does cost us money. The motion's made and seconded. Motion
is on the floor. We're moving to a vote. Okay. Lyn Griezmer is an I for referral. Councelor Hani abstain. Bob Hegner is absent. Um councelor Lord
I. Pam Rooney, yes. Councelor Ryan, abstain. Kathy Shane, yes. Andy Steinberg, abstain.
Jennifer Tob, yes. Councelor Walker, yes. Pat D'Angelus, abstain. Anna Develin Gothier, hi. I didn't hear you.
I and councelor Ete I. The motion passes with a one, two, three, six, eight eyes, four abstensions, and one
absent. We're going to move to the next one. I'm going to make put the motion on the floor. Uh and it is in accordance with Mass General Law Chapter 4A paragraph 5 to
refer proposed zoning bylaw article 19 zoning for livability affordability and balance in single and fam two family home neighborhoods to the planning board for public hearing within 65 days and report to the town council to CRC for
public hearing and recommendation to the town council and to governance organization legislation for a final review of clarity, consistency, and actionability. Is there a second? Second. Okay, the motion's been made and second. Kathy, you have your hand up.
Uh, yes. I would like to propose to amend the same way I amended the first. So, it says refer to the planning board for review. Period. Okay. Would the clerk of the council please put the motion up and just show
the strike through and the one addition? Okay, I will second that motion. Okay, the motion's been made and seconded. Are there questions and comments? Kathy, you spoke to this before and I assume this is the same reason.
Yes. Councelor Haniki, did you have further comments? Not on this motion. I'll put my hand up when it's dealt with. Okay. We're now moving to any further discussion about this and um the floor is open. I as a counselor would like to make the
following comment. I believe that the residents of our town have been after something like this as long as we have been on this council. And as much as this may not be the perfect thing, at least by referring it to the
planning board, we put it with a public body and that public body must deliberate in public and have a thorough discussion about this. And I really have to say I welcome the planning board thinking about this with us and looking at all of our
options. Keeping one's permanent residence in town is critical. One of our com public people during public comment said, "It's hard for us to recruit get to get people to run for office. It's hard to get people to be on committees." And the fewer and fewer
yearround residents that you have, whether they are renters or owners, the more difficult that becomes. So while again this may not be perfect, I am glad that the that it has been
brought forward and I am glad that it will be with a public body for the purpose of public discussion and debate. Clarification, are we talking about the motion to amend now or the main motion? We are. No, I shouldn't have said that. The motion
to amend is the You're right. Correct. The motion to amend is what we're talking about now. Is there any other conversation about the motion to amend? Okay, we're going to move to the motion to amend and we begin with councelor Hannaki. I
Hear's absent. Councelor Ward, I Pam Rooney, yes. Councelor Ryan, hi. Kathy Shane, yes. Andy Steinberg, hi. Jennifer Tob, yes. Councelor Walker,
yes. Patangelos I honor Evelyn Gothier I councrete I Lyn Grem's an I it's unanimous with 12 people voting for and one absent now we move to the final motion other comments
from counselors councelor Hani I could not have supported this going to public hearing um as I alluded to earlier public hearing were for things that are formed and this clearly is not um to ready for a public hearing stage.
So I appreciate the motion to amend to go for review only. Um I will echo councelor Greimer's comments that we as a town need to discuss how to amend our zoning bylaws and our general
bylaws. It's not just zoning to encourage housing for non- studentents. I do not like the use of the word year-round residents because students do live here year round. When I was a student in a
town for the last three years of my education, I lived in that town year round. And so implying that students do not is a problem to me. But we do need to encourage
housing for non- students as well as for students and those discussions need to happen. The planning board is one of the places those discussions need to happen. I actually believe the council is another place those discussions need to happen.
But I would rather instead of having those discussions be happening simultaneously, have them start in one place and come to us maybe occasionally. So, you know, part of what I'm saying here is I'm hoping the planning board will
listen to the meeting and and heed some things. Um, come to us and all. Um, I do have to comment a little bit on this proposal. Um, I I alluded to the one about my concerns with the definition of student home in
the proposal. I actually believe it violates fair housing laws in discriminating on the basis of family status since the only difference between a student home and a non- studentent home at a certain level is whether you are
related by blood, marriage or adoption. uh which is family status which you're frankly as a landlord not allowed to ask and as an owner no one asks. Um I don't believe this amendment as proposed is even
actionable. Um there is a doctrine in law that says laws are void for vagueness if the language is so unclear, ambiguous or imprecise that ordinary people of common intelligent cannot reasonably understand what conduct it prohibits or requires.
And when you dig down into the essence of some of this law, uh, one of the clauses reads, "The town shall preserve and support single family housing by consideration of rent stabilization." Single family housing is allowed by right with just a building permit
without any consideration as to who's going to occupy it or own it in our zoning bylaws. and nothing in this proposal changes that use classification yet. Then you have to somehow consider
rent stabilization. So I actually believe this proposal I could go on with some of those. Um is more about having a conversation than the language for the bylaw itself. Yeah. Um, another legal item I am
concerned about with regard to minimum distance requirements, MGL chapter 48 section 4 states, "Any zoning ordinance or bylaw which divides cities and towns into districts shall be uniform within the
district for each class or kind of structure or use permitted. The Attorney General's office and state courts, appellet courts, have stated that
that is a uniformity requirement and that a zoning ordinance is intended to apply uniformly to all property located in a particular district and the properties of all owners in that district must be subjected to the same restrictions for the common benefit of
all. including one court that said the uniformity requirement is based upon principles of equal treatment. All land in similar circumstances should be treated alike so that if anyone can go ahead with a certain development in a district then so can everybody else.
It's been quoted a lot regarding solar bylaws and uh idea of um attempting to restrict sighting of largecale solar installations by limiting limiting them to one per planning board sector or one
per zoning sector. Um and the AG's municipal law division has disapproved every single one of them based on the uniformity principle. I am seriously concerned that minimum distance requirements violate that principle for the same
reasons the AG has said solar large that these planning board sector restrictions violate the uniformity provision. That does not mean we should not talk about it and talk to our attorney about it. But just because a a town in another
state can do it doesn't mean we can because the laws at the state level are different. So, I want to I hope the planning board will look at that, too. Councelor Ryan.
So, as I alluded to earlier, this uh proposal is something I have more sympathy for and I will vote uh for the referral. Um I think it is a conversation that's long overdue. I think there are enormous number of problems with much of what is in here.
Um, but I think that it's something the planning board will certainly um sort out. Um, so I'm going to vote in favor of referral. Um, doesn't mean I agree with a lot of what's in here, but I think it's a conversation that we should have. Just in passing, I would just
observe that for future uh people using the public petition uh uh format um and maybe this did happen with this one, though I I have my doubts. Um the the planning department was happy to work with individuals or groups of citizens
who are bringing these kinds of uh proposals to the council to try and at least get them in some sort of form that um won't base 50,000 objections before it even gets referred to the planning board. So maybe in fact uh the petitioners did in fact reach out to the
planning department and did in fact work with them. Um but uh for those future folks who would like to follow this method, I would strongly urge you to take the time to reach out to our staff and they will work with you to try and craft something. Whether they agree with
you or not, they are professionals and they will help you sort through some of the complexities and difficulties um many of which have been raised tonight um by a number of my colleagues. So I would urge my colleagues to vote yes on this and I look forward to the conversation. And I look forward to
hearing what the planning board has to say and uh I don't know that this will happen quickly but I think it is something we need to think about and and hopefully can find some way to act on. Council, councelor Steinberg said something which
is that students are members of this community and I agree and frankly I'm troubled by the description and frankly the scapegoating of
students and what they represent within the community. When I came to Ammerst, I lived in what would be called student housing even as an assistant professor. Frankly, according to this definition as well, one could make the case that I
still would live in student housing. Students are part of this community and we should think of them as such. I'm comfortable with this going to planning board and part of the reason I am is there's a distinction that one could
make with citizens bringing a petition. Citizens who bring a petition are motivated to have that petition move through. That doesn't make them the public. Once it gets to the planning board,
those who have other ideas are going to bring it forward and the conversation can take place. That's why I voted in support with the previous motion and I will vote for this one. But I do want to encourage members of the town.
Students come here, they leave here and they can carry memories that are good or not good about the town. And those memories can bring them back or prevent even others from coming here.
Let's find a way to frame the discussion so that students don't become this category that is the order. They are not the order. And I stand with them. Uh Jennifer.
Yeah. I just need to respond. Our concern is of course we are a college town and we there are many I mean we live here because it's a college town. The concern is not with the students. It's that our
non- studentent population is declining so considerably that when we are that is the concern we to have we should be concerned that our non- studentent population has is
less than a third of the total population. It's not a negative comment on the students, but we need a certain level of a long-term community of families that send children
to our K through2 schools to have a viable community. So, our concern is the extent to which our non- studentent, yes, our non- studentent population has declined, not with the students per se.
And I think as a council it is incumbent upon us to address the fact it wasn't always this way. We were not our long-term whatever you want to call it. Our long-term
yearround non- studentent population people who send their kids to our schools who go to the senior center who go to our libraries was not always such a small percentage of the whole. And just like a town which has lost their employment base and so
they're having a drain of residents, it is our responsibility as the council to address that. So that's what we are addressing the change in the balance of our population. Are there any other questions or comments? And the reason I am now
pushing is that the person who is here for the school building roof can only be with us till 9:00. Andy. Yeah, I'll be real quick. I just wanted to say that uh it's been a lot of good
discussion, but to uh speak for the planning board's uh behalf, they've had these discussions quite a bit because the overlay district along University Drive was a direct response to these very concerns. I have great faith in the
planning board taking these referrals and taking them seriously. Thank you, Councilor Ete. Final remarks. Words matter, actions matter as well. And words can be contrasted with
actions. And I am saying that what I have seen and what I've read is not a welcoming community for Ammerst for students. I am part of that category
of those that Ammerst would want to bring to this town. So I am not a disinterested party and I am saying that it's one thing to say you want these members of the community to come show me how you do it and the words
that I see on this page and the words that I've heard do not show that. We're going to move to the vote. Councelor Lord I. Pam Rooney. Yes. Councelor Ryan I. Kathy Shane,
yes. Andy Steinberg, yes. Jennifer Tob, yes. Councelor Walker, yes. Patanggeles, I'm taking a nonviolent direct action and voting no.
Anna, Anna Delin Gothier, I. Councelor Ete I. Lyn Griemer. I councelor Hanni. I uh 11 in favor, one opposed, and one absent. We're going to come back to the
proposed zoning amendment, but right now we're going to go to the regional school debt authorization. This is to refer to the regional school dis to refer the regional school district debt authorization for the middle school roof replacement project
to the finance committee for review and report to the town council by November 17, 2025. Is there a second? Second. Would you please bring Shannon Bernache into the room? Shannon is the director of finance for
the regional and the elementary schools. Shannon, are there any comments you would like to make before you need to leave? Just a moment. She's coming in as a panelist. You need to unmute, Shannon. Here we go. Hello. Um, I was just here to state that
the regional school committee voted unanimously to approve the debt authorization. So, it was now passed on to the four towns. Um I I am aware that on September 30th Sheets has now voted
to approve the debt authorization. It's my understanding that the town's council the town council will review tonight with a possible referral to Amherst finance committee and based on they'll make a recommendation to the town
council for October 20th. Um the town of Pelum has a vote their fall town meeting on October 15th and at this time um I'm not aware of Leverett having a fall town meeting date yet. Um the actual date for
MSBA to officially um vote on the project is October 28th. Um so I just wanted to give some important dates that were coming up. Um, and the MSB reimbursement rate that we currently have is 61.95%.
Okay. Uh, Shannon, we're going to quickly see if there's questions that the council would like to ask and we'll continue this after you need to leave questions. Uh, councelor Hani. Um, I forwarded my questions to, uh, councelor Shane, but she asked that and
she was going to forward them on to you um, Shannon uh, today. I will not be at the finance committee meeting tomorrow, but she asked that I raise them tonight, too. So, I will be very quick. I don't expect answers tonight. Um, and I will summarize them. Um, one is how do we guarantee that the regional school
committee will rescend the current borrowing authorization? Um, and is there a way to avoid? um what constitutes an educational use for the purposes of the use of the middle school if there's no need for the regional school to use it themselves as
a seven and eight school because of say a combination into the high school. Uh what portion what is our portion of the bond assuming the MSBA approves their share? So, and how much more is that than the current 3 million authorization that is out there for this roof? Um and
how this one's for Paul. How does that fit into our capital capital plan? Um and um can we wait to vote as a council until after the MSBA awards the grant October 28th? Um such that we know whether the grant is
awarded or not before we vote as a council to approve the borrowing. And um if the grant doesn't get awarded um and the borrowing is approved, can the regional school committee still replace the roof? But would the towns be on the hook for the whole thing? Uh so what's
the plan for that if that happens is sort of the subset of that question of if we can't wait until we know um what might happen if the MSBA doesn't approve. They don't need answered tonight. Shannon, I can address some of these if that's
okay. Um so we have a plan to resend a portion of the funds that were not spent in good faith. I don't believe that we would not do that for um any reason. I think I think that would be our good faith to do that. Um there if the MSBA
is voting officially to approve the project, October 28th, um we have 60 days or you all have 60 days from the date that the regional school committee voted it, which was September 23rd. So October 28th is still within 60 days if
you chose to wait until after that. Um we would still be within bounds um for that vote. Um and I we were told by our OPM that um they've done many of these roof projects with MSBA and once you're
at this stage they have never seen a denial. So it's very likely I probably think 99% likely that it'll be approved at this point. Um in terms of the educational use with MS um when I asked this question to MSBA, they did not
expand on this and they would not give me um whatif scenarios as I presented them. um but that if there were a change to the building usage whatever it may be that we would want to discuss with them
prior to any decision making of that. Um in terms of the portion of the bond per our regional agreement this is divided up um based on EQV at the time um of the authorization.
So uh it's around um 3.4 4 million if you take into account the piece of the 255,000 that was already borrowed on the original debt authorization and that has a different EQ value from when that was
voted. So when I combine them it's around 3.14 um which is about approximate 1 million more than the prior if you had only stayed at the 3 million. Um, and I think that answered almost all of your
questions pretty quickly. Thank you. There'll be an opportunity and Shannon, we hope that you or someone from the school committee will be at the finance committee meeting tomorrow, right Kathy? Yes. Uh, Pam Rooney,
thank you. Um, I wanted to ask, has the Amoris portion of this of this um um been listed on the capital improvement plan for a number of years? Typically, these big projects sort of start out 10 years back and move their
way forward. So, everyone is aware of them and is anticipating them as part of the big picture. Is that the case here? In terms of the regional capital plan, yes, the 3 million was on there. Um, but
the increase was not anticipated on there. It was only the original 3 million in that um plan. Um, thank you, uh, Shannon. Uh my questions as a counselor, um if the money were
available to also do the auditorium roof, can we still meld that project into this project so that we would save enough money by doing one project versus two? I think that's a great idea and
something that was presented to us as well and we talked to MSBA and what they will do is add it as an alternate to the project. So it's not going to increase what we have to vote tonight but we'll have the alternate cost. Um and then if
we decide to pursue it I I believe there will be some economies of scale if we do it now rather than wait later down the line. Um so we are going to explore that. The reason I ask this is in when this is
looked at by the finance committee I would also like the town manager and the council to consider contributing to the roof over the auditorium as an expenditure from free cash. It's a one-time expense. So it's the kind of thing free cash is used for. The finally
uh the other thing I just have to say and that is we really need to exercise significant caution in projecting increases in school population. I've heard some statements in the last two or three weeks that suggest we're expecting
some big increase. The United States, and particularly the Northeast and the Midwest states, have been experiencing declining birth rates since 2009, except for a slight uptick in 2014.
And we have just begun to see the impact of immigrants exiting our country, not because we want them to, but because they feel they need to leave. And that will have impact on the coming years. And finally, increase in birth rate in amorous does not guarantee that these
individuals will show up at our schools, but rather should extrapolate using similar drain as we've already seen for students going to private schools, charter schools, and homeschooling. So, I just have to project a little bit
into how we look at birth rates in our town. Uh, Councelor Ryan, I just want to echo uh the president's remarks to the finance committee that since the auditorium roof is not covered by this borrowing that we give serious
thought to a way that we could uh fund uh that portion of the project uh both for the savings that perhaps could be achieved by um you know economies of scale but I think more importantly because the auditorium roof needs to be done. Um, so we need to make sure that
that happens. I had a very quick question. It maybe it's just my obtuseness, but in the past I've been told that that these grants come with a time uh restriction. In other words, it says that for the next 10 years or certain length of time, the building has
to remain in use as an educational facility. Um, is that the case in this situation? Um, is it a 10-year time limit? Is there two is there any what's the time constraint if any on this project in terms of the building's use?
So I accept the money. Yep. I did ask MSBA that directly and it took a a little bit to get the correct answer. Um but it is it is a requirement of or it not a requirement but the word that was used was expectation that the
building would be in use for 20 years. And if we decided to alter that for some reason, um, whatever that plan is, we need to speak with MSBA ahead of time if reclaiming some of those funds was required or not required. Um, but they
did not provide me a circumstance or would not go over examples of when they would reclaim money and when they would not reclaim money. Um, so we would really need to be in concert with them if we were to decide to make that
decision before we make that decision. Thank you, Kathy. Shannon, I think I think heard you say that we uh don't have to act before MSBA uh meets, but Lynn and I see that the
referral is asking you're talking about it coming back to the council not till November 17th. And I don't know why you put that date. If we tomorrow in finance can move it through, it could come back to the council faster than that. So, was
that just a outside date? You know, cuz it some of the other towns, as Shannon just said, have voted on this already. So, that it's a question of the way you've referred and then the next date that you were going to put it on the council meeting.
Was that supposed to be October 17th? No, the rules um these are standard referrals and the rules say 45 days. Okay. Uh we can change the date. That's not something Shannon I mean what Shannon has informed us is that the school committee voted on September
23rd. There's 60 days that we have are supposed to act within and that means we could move this to the November 3rd and still be within that time. It would also be after the MSBA votes. Okay. And I just want to uh say a big
thanks to Shannon because I went to her about the auditorium roof and she quickly went to the design team and got an estimate and and the uh solution of having it be an alternative and that Shannon you worked you turned that
around in about 24 hours. It was amazing. So thank you very much. Okay, Shannon, I know you need to leave. We have one more question. Councelor Hanaki. Um it's not a question. I would support as the seconder of the motion moving that date to November 3rd to give us okay
a little more leeway than the 60 days because that that 17 is really close to that 60 days and it's still after the MSBA vote on the 28th so we should have that information by then too but I was the seconder. All right and so we're going to move that to November 3rd. Okay. Thank you.
Um Shannon, thank you for joining us. We um really appreciate and enjoy the rest of your evening and all those kids. Thank you. And I will pop in on the finance committee meeting tomorrow. Thank you. We appreciate that. Are there any other questions or comments from the
council? Then we're going to do the we're going to vote on the following. To refer the regional school district debt authorization for the middle school roof replacement project to the finance committee for review and report to the town council by November 3rd, 2025. That
motion's been made and seconded with a friendly amendment. We're uh beginning with uh councelor Lloyd I. Pam Rooney. Yes. Councelor Ryan. Hi. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Yes. Jennifer Tob.
Yes. Councelor Walker. Yes. Paty Angelus. Hi. Develier. Hi. Councelor Ete. I. Lynn Griezmer. I councelor Hannik. Hi. It's unanimous with one counselor
absent. We are going to take a 10-minut break. Uh we will be back at uh 9:15. Okay. And uh please unmute and please
mute your mics or anything else and also take your picture off. Turn your picture back on when you come back. discussion. Good night. Power. Yeah, they were working very short before
Yeah, they were working on I thought I don't I mean blood. What are you doing? That might work. Hello. All right. As you return, please put your video on
so I know you're back. Thank you. As you return, please put your video back on. Okay, we're going to get going. Um, we're moving to proposed zoning amendment inclusionary zoning bylaw section 15.171
payment in lie of affordable units. This is a first reading and so there is no vote but if there are questions or issues it can actually be discussed then by the committees. I'm going to start with um the mo excuse me there is no motion. I'm going to start by calling on
Pam Rooney for the CRC report. That's what we're doing. The report for I on our our report on that vote. Oh. Um, no, sorry. You're right. Go ahead,
Pam. Thank you. Um the CRC report on inclusionary zoning fees in lie of affordable units uh is a topic that was um discussed was was was referred to the council and
to the planning board and was discussed by the CRC on August 28 and voted unanimously uh with one absent to so to recommend that the bylaw as amended did um be uh
recommended to the council. Okay. I'm I'm going to end up giving background which I thought town staff was actually going to give background. I'm going to ask Greg for that. Okay. Okay. Okay. So in just in short then the
CRC did support and actually um made a few changes of its own with what the planning board had recommended and we supported having a range of values
uh that reflected um the area median income. We uh supported clarifying the permit granting authority or simplifying the permit granting authority.
And we supported including a consultation with the housing trust that um would help establish econom the economic value of affordable units not
being provided in a construction project. Okay. Uh Anna G. Yep. G did find this uh clear, consistent, and actionable. Um the only
shift that I believe came from G was we changed the words uh consultation to recommendation. Just to clarify what the role uh in it, it says it initially said permit granting authority with consultation from the housing trust. G discussed that the phrase recommendation
would make more sense to clarify what the role of the housing trust in that um discussion would be. Other than that, we had uh good discussion about where the numbers came from in terms of how to pull those from HUD and ultimately found this clear, consistent, and actionable
as as it is in your packet today. So, I'd like to welcome both Greg Rashau, I hope I pronounced that correctly, uh he is one of our planning uh staff, and also Nate Mallaloy uh who's a senior
planning director. Um so, um Greg, are there some things you'd like to say about this? In meantime, however, remember there's no motion on the floor. This will come back for a second reading two weeks from today. Um, sure. I mean, it would be helpful if
I just gave some the quick background on the sort of where this came from. Um, so the the basic context, as you may have seen in a memo, probably some time ago at this point, um, uh, this was inspired by, um, a specific instance, uh, the one time the town has utilized the fee inlt
within the inclusionary zoning bylaw. Um and uh the planning board um uh did did negotiate a fee in lie with uh a developer. Um however um despite um uh you know sort of informal communication between the applicant and the developer
um and staff around a possible um higher amount that is named in the current text of the bylaw. Um the planning board felt that it was most appropriate um to stick uh rather they were uncomfortable going higher. Um uh so um what this change does um is instead of naming a specific
amount, it instead names a a range um so sort of ops the planning board or in some cases it might be the ZBA um into some sort of affirmative uh determination on a case- by case basis. Um and the basic reasoning behind that is um these range in uh detail and um uh
and the use of a fee in LU could apply to a range of different development scenarios which probably has a range of different values um based on a number of criteria. Are there questions from the of the planning staff?
Councelor Ry. So I I guess I'm trying to understand that if someone's wants to do a development and they are trying to figure out their costs which is you know whether this can
work whether this is financially viable um and they might want to consider the fee in L. At what point in the process would they actually know what the cost would be? Because the uncertainty factor here seems pretty high. That's my first
question. I just, you know, so the housing trust is going to weigh in. At some point, a determination is going to be made about the the value of the of the property and then a calculation will be made and that's what the fee will be.
Is that something that happens very early in the process so that a developer has a fairly clear sense of the cost they're looking at? Because under the current system, for better or worse, you know what the cost is right from the get-go. So you can do your calculation.
Um, and my sense from initially my concern about this and it still is that this will really result in this never ever being used that if you really want to make it so that the fee and ll never ever takes place.
Thank you. If you want to make sure that the fee and ll never takes place, um, this will this will guarantee it. So help me or give me some confidence that if I'm a developer that early enough in the process, I will actually know what
my costs are going to be. Sure. Um and maybe I'll be brief here and Nate if you want to add on anything, but um yeah, thank you for that that question. I think it's a really relevant one. And I think the um the most direct
way to answer is in regards to what um uh sort of by rights the wrong term I guess but as as as it stands now and as is proposed in the adjusted bylaw um the fee and loo option wouldn't be an
automatic opportunity for an applicant. Um uh the that that's something that has to be granted by the permit granting authority the planning board of the ZPA. So from an applicant's perspective, what they are penciling in in their early calculations is probably uh the thinking
is here the the cost of actually providing the units um on site within the development. Um and this adjustment sort of stays with the original spirit of the bylaw, which seems to me to encourage production of those units on site within a building. um use of the
fee and loo or an off-site development model um uh is is is in my eyes currently and would continue to be a higher bar. Um so if it were the case that it were already um an automatically
available option, I think this would be a different conversation. Um, but because it's already something that's not um officially available to any applicant, uh, that softens the concern in my mind.
Okay, Nate, you have your hand up. Sure. Thanks. Yeah, I just wanted to explain that to have a payment in L is a special permit application from the permit granting authority. So, in addition to say a site plan review application, an applicant would then make a special permit application to pay
this fee. So it's a discretionary permit uh and it's in addition to what would be you know what the original path would be is just to provide the units in the in the property in that in the application and project. So this is essentially asking for an exception and so the board the planning board and CRC discussed that. So you know this is at a land use
permitting process early in the beginning and they would know that before they move forward right so they're getting their land use permit site plan review or special permit and then they would know by the end of this what the payment in l would be if it's granted and so the hope really is that given this range an applicant would
write apply with a number that they think is appropriate and then it's a discussion with the permit granting authority what that really is and so the way the bylaw is currently structured it says shall be four times the median family income So it is just whatever the number is four times whatever the AMI is
and there's no really discretion there or discussion about it and as Greg mentioned in the previous project the housing trust thought the number could be higher given the type of development its location you know say size of units in terms of bedrooms the planning board felt that the bylaw wasn't written with
enough flexibility to even you know go any more than the four times the area median income per unit and so you know it actually asked the housing trust to look into it what would be an appropriate range or approach to this and so that's what you know came forward and the range was narrowed a bit in the
recommendation from the planning board in CRC so five to eight times the area median income and that's not based on household size it's a number that's produced by HUD annually so you know it's just one number it's not like you have to factor in number of bedrooms and so it's you know whatever that number isn't in that range and so really what
it does it allows the permit granting authority to have a conversation during the special permit application which is concurrent to the site plan review application they happen, you know, the the hearings would be opened at the same time. That's what happened in the past. They'd be concurrent hearings. So, by the time one is closed, the other one is closed and the applicant would know
what, you know, were they awarded, you know, allowed to the special permit or not. So, it's pretty early on in the process, George. So, my sense is that this would only be attractive, if it ever is attractive, to
a project that has a fairly small number of potential affordable units. So if you're building a project where you have 10 or 15 or 20 affordable units you have to provide um probably no developer would be interested in in a fee in loop.
Um again maybe I'm wrong here because this is way out of my depth but that would be my initial thought that this is only going to take place as it took place with the project that was mentioned earlier um when the number of units that had to be provided was three. Um, and so in that range of three to
five or two or whatever might this might conceivably be attractive, but beyond that, I would think you would never expect to see anyone take advantage of this. Um, is the first thought. The second seems to be that what you're saying and makes some sense is that there's going to be a kind of
negotiation and that anyone entering into this would understand that if they're going to follow this path um they're going to have to make a what they consider to be a good faith proposal and then they'll negotiate with the planning board um and hopefully come to a resolution um because I do think
that that at least in the the first case this did produce a sizable amount of money that the housing trust can use for other purposes um that it might want to pursue in going forward dealing with our housing crisis. And so I think it does
produce a good a benefit though it doesn't produce a particular housing affordable unit. It does produce money that the trust can then use um and in other ways. So, I support it and I guess what I'm hearing is that um this gives a
sort of flexibility and allows for negotiation. Um and you believe it better reflects it will better reflect the true value of the property that is being the property that's under discussion and you don't think that it's uh such a high bar that that a developer
will never ever consider it. You think this still might be attractive in certain circumstances? I do. And a developer doesn't have to request it for all the affordable units. So in the example you gave, I agree a small a project with fewer affordable units. A devel a developer who doesn't
know how to, you know, market or, you know, want to monitor, you know, it's just they're not familiar with affordable units may think the payment in L is a better option. But a development with a number of affordable units could request a payment for some of them, not all of them. Uh, and I think the range is appropriate. Originally, it was four to 10. I think
the planning board felt 10 was just unreasonable in any circumstance. And so why have that as an upper limit if it you know if it really couldn't be justified and so that's why it was narrowed from five to eight. Uh some of it's also that you know the idea would
be if it's a standard number and it you know and you know the economy changes then that number should be updated to accurately reflect what the building cost is or what the say per unit cost or what the value of the unit is and the range allows the bylaw to stay you know say for a few years without being
amended again. And so if we just said four times the AMI, well maybe that was appropriate when it was adopted a few years ago, but given the current cost of everything, maybe it should be five. And then maybe two years from now something changes, it should be something else. But the range allows the bylaw to stay
also without having to change and try to update annually. Um because the AMI is updated annually. And then the range really is then like you said the negotiation with the applicant and the permit granting authority. So then what is the right kind of cost per project?
So just one final question if I may and clarification what I just heard you say Nate I didn't understand this is that say you have a project you're proposing and you you're asked to supply say 15 or 20 affordable units you could negotiate a fee in L for a certain number a
smaller number of those in addition to providing so it's not that's not an all or nothing thing you could you could say okay we're going to provide 14 affordable units but we'd like a fee we'd like to pay a fee for the other three or four. Yeah. So if the if a property is providing six or more affordable units,
half of those units have to be provided in the project. So if it's providing 10 affordable units, five have to be on in the project and then five are what could be you know a payment in lie of or offered offsite. And so you know there's a provision that you know as part of this you know the more affordable units
you have some have to be provided in the project in the actual application and then you know the remainder the other half could be you know um negotiated however it's structured. So, you know, it could be that some are pay, you know, a payment in loo, some maybe are provided off-site and then some are actually provided in the project. So,
there are kind of three options if you get to have six or more affordable units in a project. Pam, I I wanted to speak to George's question about the the high bar. Uh, and yes, it
does set a fairly high bar, but it was felt that that a bar is need some sort of bar is needed. Um, in particular, a uh the cost of not delivering a unit along with new construction, the
potential of, as you just said, 10 10 new units is really important and key to our our affordable housing counts. So, not delivering those units in new construction puts off
delivery of affordable units to some time unknown. Maybe the the uh the housing trust needs to assemble a whole number of funding sources in order to go ahead with the next project. It could be 5 years before that fee in lie of is
actually um applied to a new project and the town actually gets to claim those lost uh affordable units. So having this flexibility in cost is also giving the opportunity uh to look toward the future
when the project when the units will actually be produced. Okay, there any other questions or comments? Again, this will come back in two weeks on the 20th for a second reading and
motion and vote. Um, thank you Greg and Nate for your patience this evening and we're going to move on to the next item. Okay. Uh, and please bring Julian Hines in on case we have questions. Um, the
motion on the floor in this case is in accordance with charter section 9.6 to extend the 2024 charter review committee report deadline to January 5th, 2026. Is there a second? Second, Ryan.
Thank you. Um, the floor is open for questions and comments. Councelor Hanaki. Um, I have a couple of questions for the chair of the committee. Um, in your report, um, well, when you requested an
extension on March 19th, you stated that you would file a preliminary report by May 31st and a midpoint report by August 31st. And in today's request, or the request that was in our packet today, um, the committee stated that they had filed both of those reports. Um, this
morning I well a while ago I searched my the packets around those dates, the council packets and my own email. I could not find them. I emailed the council president and the council clerk asking where they were because maybe they just
didn't get forwarded to us and the council president had no record of receiving those reports. So the first question I have is where are those reports and what do they say? We need to bring Julian Hines into the room. Uh, he's declined to come in as a
panelist. Okay. Um, well, here. He is here now. Julian, can you hear us? Julian, can you hear us? You need to
unmute. Julian, you need to unmute. Well, let's go on with additional questions. I I have another one for chair, please. Uh my other question is when the chair was here requesting that extension
on March 9 March 19th to October 31st which the council granted. One of the questions that was asked by me at that time given the progress that seemed to not be being made by the committee at that time was can you make
October 31? Um and we were assured at that time that October 31 would be doable that they had a plan. they had um a timeline and that timeline would have them done by October 31. Um and so I guess I'm asking what happened to that
and why do you need an extension again if you had a plan and you had assured us you wouldn't need one. Um, appears we have lost connection completely. Um, it's possible that Julian is having some connectivity issues.
So, we might just wait a moment. See if he comes. I'm sorry, we can't hear you. There might be some connectivity issues because he's it looks like he's left the meetings. Right. Are there other questions or comments?
Councelor Hanicki, I guess I I have a lot of comments, but I don't want to make them without hearing responses to my questions. If there's a chance that we will get responses to those questions, I I don't know how long I should wait to make my comments.
And I hate to delay this till the 20th because of the request. Um, I had a interaction with the chair and he assured me he'd be here, but I guess we're having connectivity issues. Kathy, do you have
another comment or question? Uh, well, without the chair here, it's it I think it makes it difficult, but I'm I'm just wondering if we can gather the questions and submit them so we can get answers to them rather than um
taking time tonight. Okay. and and have this come back on the 20th. Yeah. You know, so even with this interim report, I have some I'm I'm not sure when the committee is asking a question and they're saying to the project staff to get an answer. I'm not sure what that dynamic is. So I can
articulate my question about what I'm reading because I don't understand it. But I'll write it down, Lynn. So I don't need to do it right now. A point of clarification, the documents that are in the council packet are not a report from the committee. I'm sorry.
The documents that were in the council packet are not a report from the charter review committee. Yes, that is correct. Okay. Councelor Hani, are there other questions? There are no other questions. Um, I will
say in some sense I don't think we should delay the vote because I think the committee needs to know whether October 31 is their deadline or not. Um, I I'm not
sure they've been operating under the assumption that it is their deadline. It sounds like they're operating on the assumption that we will grant the extension. Um, I'm not inclined to grant the extension. Um,
this process was intended to be completed in one council term between the one-year deadline to report to us appointment in an even year and 90 days to act. Um, I am
I do not believe it would be wise to put as the very first action of a brand new council a 90day deadline to review a report and act when if the report is in by October 31,
we have 60 days before we're done. And if the report is sufficient enough, given that they've been the ones that have been studying this, um, we should be able to act within 60 days on each of these votes. Uh,
I know from everything I've heard from in finance that budgets and finances are going to be a major issue beginning in January. Um, I think we should finish our business
and one of the things we should finish is this entire process and I think we have a possibility to do it if we do not extend that deadline. Um, I was hoping to get some answers from the chair tonight. Um,
including what you know like is there a reason why they can't make that October date that six months ago they insured us they would be able to make? I mean, they've had more than a year so far or just over a year. Um, and they're asking for
nearly over 18 months from their first meeting. Um, more than what the charter commission had from the day they were elected, not from the day they first met. Are there any other questions, comments?
Councilor Ryan. So just a clarification if they are granted this extension yet again then the report will not come to this council it will come to to the subsequent council. Yes. And the council once it comes to the
council they have 90 days to review and respond. It's according to the charter unless you read it differently. I had another comment if George is done. Yeah. Um, which reminded me of my comment. They have 90 days to respond.
The charter does not allow an extension of that unlike an extension of this. And that 90 days starts the first day of the term when there are no committees. There are no committee assignments. So, in essence, they would really only have the 60 days that we would give ourselves if we respond if if the report came in
October 31 by the time committees are formed um meet, review, and all um because it's the brand new term. Jennifer, so October 31st is three weeks away. I
mean, it doesn't sound like that's possible if they're asking. I mean, I would hate to get a rushed report. You know, it it's it just doesn't seem like it's possible. We now granted goo might have the go members might have
been you know addressing the charter review process but it's not really something we've discussed as a council. I mean I'm not very much I'm not sure the next council is any aside from the committees maybe being formed is less prepared would be less prepared than
this council is to receive the report. I mean go has not been meet all G has done is meet with so I'm just saying I don't think we're in any better a position to understand the report than the next council. I just want to be clear G has although
they've met with the charter review committee uh it was not with regard to their recommendations. Okay. Um Pam, can someone remind me and the general public um what is supposed to happen within the 30 days once we receive the
report? Are we supposed to break apart recommendations and vote on it within those 30 days? The uh um I'm going to turn to Thea because Thea's been staffing this group. Their recommendations will come in
different forms. Is that correct? they haven't submitted the initial report or the second report. Um the deadline that they're the extension that they're asking for is for the final report. They're still they haven't begun drafting the initial report.
Um so which 30-day deadline are you referring to? 90day deadline from the final report. Yeah, the final report once they submit that to the council, the council has 90 days to act on it. And some some of the actions may be things the council can
do. Some of the actions may be uh special legislation. Some of the actions might require the council to actually put out a ballot question. And some of the actions may be just suggestions and
frankly they could be impact they would might be suggestions that would impact their ch um rules of procedure. That's it. The committee is also required to hold a public forum on their recommendations
and they haven't done so. And they have not held that public forum. They have not because they have not come out with their recommendations. Correct. Okay. Andy. Yes. I just want to respond to one
thing. I know that the new counselors coming in are going to have a lot on their agenda to learn about. Uh if we go back to what the first year that we became counselors,
uh there was a lot to learn about the process, the rules of procedure, the budget, um how town government functions in detail, the presentations that we received um from the town manager to facilitate
that process. That's a very important part of the first um weeks and months of the council term so that the council is fully informed and can move forward
within the rules of procedure and uh the uh whole budget uh uh process and understanding the complexities of the budget process. So, it's putting a lot
on uh the new counselors. Um and those of us who are leaving the council have um our experience at looking at um how this form of government works and
they're looking forward to what the uh charter committee review committee has to suggest. But um I think that it's uh important that u there be u some experience with the
review as it goes forward. And I'm going to conclude by giving one example and that is that um there was a lot of misunderstanding that was going on in some of the questions I received from
the committee regarding um how the council calendar works for the budget process. And that in and of itself is an extremely important thing to understand because we're not dealing with what the
charter commission, the original charter commission made up out of um just their own uh thoughts about what's the best process. they were dealing with state law and the fact that we have a uh whole
process that is established by Mass General law and uh I I'm really concerned that u not having u that is part of the understanding of the process
um is going to be a big mistake. I really am concerned about granting an extension Um, Julian is now back in the audience. Would you please bring him in? Julian, please unmute. Thank you.
Were you able to hear any of the questions? Not really. Sorry, everyone. I've been having some connectivity issues, but I'm here now and I'm happy to answer any questions the committee has. Can you all hear me? Yes. I'm going to go back to councelor
Hanaki to have her reask her questions. Sure. Um, on March 19th, you requested an extension from the council to October 31st. And in that report, you stated that a preliminary report would be submitted by May 31 and a midpoint
report that was assumed to be the initial report under the charge would be submitted by October 31st. On this most recent extension, um, the request letter states that those reports were submitted. I went through the council packets. I went through my
own email. I did not see copies of those reports. So I asked the clerk of the council and the president um to forward me copies of those reports and both of them stated that those reports were never submitted to the council. So my question that's my first question is where are those reports and what do they
actually say? Yeah, thank you. I appreciate the question. So the answer is that we do not have we have not created as a committee the initial or preliminary report yet. We are at which I is
disappointing just quite frankly. Um we are creating the initial report currently. So, we're in those phases and I believe attached to the packet, you should have all of the suggestions that we have adopted for changes as well as
what the Colin Center has submitted to us as potential wording changes through article 2. Um, if you haven't gotten those, I would I'm happy to send them to you directly or uh we can get them
submitted in the packet uh post. But according to my email, I sent them at about 10:00 this morning. Thank you. We did get those two documents, but my my question revolves around the documents that you stated in
your letter. Um were a report May 31 and August 31. Were those reports you submitted to us? We have not submitted those reports. We owe you an initial report and a preliminary report as stated in the
letter and the letter is incorrect. Those have not been submitted to you yet because the committee is moving slower than we expected. Okay, that that brings me to the second question I asked which was at the request for the extension on March 19th. um given the what appeared
from an outsider to be very little movement on creating those reports. Um when you asked for when the committee asked for an October 31 deadline, this body and I know me in particular asked, can you meet that deadline? Um and the
response was yes, we can. We've created a timeline. We know what we have to do. It's tight, but we've got these deadlines and we're going to meet those deadlines and we'll be here and we'll make it by October 31. Um, and now you're back asking for another extension. So, what happened to that
plan and why wasn't it met? No, that that's a good question. So, basically, we have co a cohort of members who do outreach and a cohort of members who have been processing that feedback. The cohort of members who have
been processing the feedback have been moving along relatively quickly. However, the cohort of members who have been working on outreach have been requesting that we as a committee prioritize the outreach over getting and
sorting through the feedback and working on the report. So that has been a tension on the committee where we haven't exactly been able to meet all our deadlines. We also I set very ambitious deadlines for the committee
and oftent times folks push backwards on those deadlines to move them uh longer out because they want more time to collect feedback from residents and stuff which is a lotable goal. But that is that is why it is taking longer.
There also has been a fair amount of sort of just values disagreements as to what is appropriate to include and what is not appropriate to include and that takes up more time than expected. Um we did have a retreat pretty recently on
September 6th um where we made some good progress that got ended early um due to some concerns about the weather and I believe that is the best update I can give you at this time. But long story
short, your judgment is correct that we are taking significantly longer than expected. And I would say those are probably the three best reasons I can give you for that um occurrence. Thank you for those responses.
Other questions or comments? Andy? Yes. Hi Julian. Um the the question that I was raising is actually um slightly different because uh what happened while you were trying to reconnect and I'm
sorry that you had those problems was a discussion u about what might then become the new schedule for consideration of the process because it had been anticipated when the process
process was created that it would be finished within this term of the council and um that you know was sort of the assumption that all of us had been running on and uh so my observation was
that um to have a report an action that's required of a new council has um logistical problems which I'm not going to recount. account now because you can watch the meeting later. But it was
really a suggest it was really a concern about putting a heavy burden on a new council to deal with these with the issues would be raised. Um and uh um
when there's so many other things that new counselors need to do to um uh begin their work and really become effective in what they're going to be doing and uh it would not be uh fair to them or fair
of the process. So it was really an observation that I was making more than a question. But thank you. Hi Andy. Yeah, I was just gonna say hi and thank you. I
think that's a good observation. There is the there is the benefit that we have to enlighten the community and bring this to a broader discussion given that it's going into a new council term. However, I agree that it's important to notice in
considering this decision that the council is the new council will be more burdened having this on their agenda rather than yours. So, I think that is definitely a worthwhile thing to consider. Thank you, Andy
George. Councelor Ryan. So based on that consideration, it would seem not unreasonable that we should have a vote and we should vote not to grant you the extension and that would I assume compel you to give us the report that we've been so patiently waiting for. So I
guess the question for me and for my colleagues is do we wish to sort of take that that path? um listening to the comments of my colleagues the past few minutes and listening to your answers um I'm kind of inclined to say no um you've
had more than enough time um and it's time for you to give us the report so that we can actually act on it um which is what we've been expecting all along. I don't know if there's any agreement amongst my colleagues on this but I think that's the decision we need to
make tonight. um either grant him the extension and this will be passed on to the next council or say enough is enough and please give us what you've got. Council, um so Julian, you brought up this
request and I assume there is the possibility that the request will not be granted. My question then would be how would you anticipate your work to continue and be done by the end of October if it turns out that there is no
extension. That is a great question and I would say the answer to that is as in the charge you see an initial report a preliminary report and a final report. I think what would end up happening is you all would just get our initial our initial report
which would serve as the final report and that initial report would come in the form of a list of suggestions where um where in the charter those suggestions would fall and potential draft language with reports on benefits
and drawbacks of each suggestion as well as a recap of what we've heard from the community. It would not be refined. it would not get the chance to go through a second or third public outreach session. We have so far held four, I believe maybe five public forums um which has
had relatively limited attendance between 10 and 12 people each time. Um some of the same faces, some new faces, but basically the answer to your question is you all would get solely the initial report. Um, and then the benefit
to that would be you're able to act on it as a council. Now, the drawback to that is that it's not a finished draft. It is an initial report. It does not include additional community feedback and it does not allow the public in the
election to weigh that as an issue when voting. Anna, um I I think councelor et asked my question. I had I had framed it as I'd like to know what the difference would
be between a report we would get on October 31st versus an extension to January 5th. So I think I have an answer on that. But Julian, you you threw me for a loop with the last part of your sentence there. Is the committee looking at the charter review process as
something that they would like to see be an election topic? Um because that that sounds like what you just said and I'm I'm really confused by that. You said the words that it not granting you this extension would deny the voters a chance to look at the charter review as a
candidate topic. That to my knowledge was never part of the charge. And so I'm confused by your mention of that and I'm curious if it's come up in the committee. No, that's a good question. If not, is the committee if not we as the committee have no involvement in the election.
However, the issue of the charter, given the timing of this committee, the council, I believe, has a choice to make as to whether it is appropriate to have the issue of potential amendments to the
charter be something that voters weigh when they go to choose their candidates or not. I don't think that's a issue for our committee to consider. I think it's an issue for the council to consider in regards to timing and how it is might be
appropriate to have an increased say from voters which I would personally advocate for is a positive thing because voters would be allowed to come out to the polls and consider that among the
host of 10 15 other issues that the town faces um when considering how they choose to cast their ballots. So, in my opinion, that's an added benefit, but no, we're not an election entity. We have nothing to do with the election. Um, I was just adding that as something
that I saw personally as a positive, but folks may politically disagree, think it's not a positive. I just want to clarify, I'm I'm not saying whether I politically agree or disagree. I was confused by it getting mentioned because it wasn't something in the charge. So, I appreciate you clarifying that this was your personal
opinion. Councelor Lord. Um, thank you. I've heard what we've all said about like the importance of maybe people with a lot of experience on the council seeing it and why maybe
we need it sooner. But I know that what I've heard from the committee members was it was a lot more work than they had anticipated. Some they're doing 10 plus hours a week. um they've been one down. Um I know there was a mention that oh maybe next
time we'll make sure they have a budget so they can hire some people to do research all the outreach. So I'm just like thinking about when we ask our residents and our citizens to come forward and and do this amount of work which is really um laborous. And then I'm thinking okay
we didn't get one report and then we didn't get a second report. So maybe we didn't write who would be responsible for following up. And maybe if we had figured out how to support them or come to them when we didn't get that preliminary, we could have been like, "Okay, we see we've missed the deadline.
How can we help? What's going on? What do you need?" So I'm I'm I'm leaning towards granting the extension even though I know there's a lot of reasons why not to because I feel responsible as a counselor that I didn't pick this up sooner and tried to see how we could.
And maybe it's not our maybe it's not written in that we can, but I just feel like we can learn a lot from this really important committee that's going to help inform how we govern like how we show up for our citizens, our residents, our community. And I just want to like own
the part in the town council when we didn't get some of the preliminary parts in March and in the summer that maybe we needed to follow up and just see how we could support getting them on task, not task. Sorry. Thank
you, Pat. Thank you, Councelor Lord. Um I agree with some of the statements that you've shared. I'm very confused by the fact that there is no preliminary report or an initial
report. It's kind of basic. Um and then I'm con the choosing candidates uh that you know you voters want to hear where candidates stand on the charter. If we don't have your report until
January, there's no way this we can even say to constituents, residents, or even ourselves what the issues are. So, I I am really torn. I'm not I'm really
honestly not sure which way to go. But I I I am concerned that there hasn't even been an a very basic beginning. This is what we have been doing. This is where we are. These are the suggest whatever. Um
and so I'm confused even by you now. Are you saying let's get it done by the 31st so you can people can vote about it, talk about it, or are you saying you still want it in January? We as a committee voted to approve the
request a in early September the extension request um and we voted unanimously at that time to approve it uh with one member absent and I personally I don't have any real opinion
either way. I think the council, as we've heard from members of the council, there are some good reasons to grant the extension request and there's some good reasons to wrap this committee up and um and sort of move on with the report, the
initial report as it would be. Um we would have the initial report out by the time of the election. So to answer your question, Pat, there would be something in front of the residents of the town to consider by that time. Um, thank you for
your question. Um, Julian, you and I have discussed this, okay? And even as I sit here now, I'm of several minds, okay? One is when we ask
a committee to do a job, they spend a lot of time doing that job and you have spent as a committee a lot of time hearing from the public and you're in the process of trying to synthesize that. Um
the reality is that feedback from the public is incredibly important. It's not even a question in my mind. people have taken time to give us their thoughts about the charter and frankly a
lot of other things that may impact other pieces like the rules of procedure or even how we approach meetings. Okay. So part of me says you know a lot of that could be dealt with in a new
council. There may be a few returning people from this council to the next council, but only the electorate gets to decide that. But then the other piece is that if you drop a report on us on October 31st, the election is 4 days
later. There is no public meeting except on November 3rd. And right now, November 3rd already looks like a bankrupt meeting. And I will be discussing that with the council in a moment. And whether or not there's ever any
public debate in I think the issue of how this relates to this election is probably irrelevant because we won't have a report in time for the public or
anybody else to um digest it. So there's a part of me that says I know this is a burden on a new council. On the other hand, I want this council to think of everything else we have on our plate before we finish and are we
going to be sitting here on December 31st trying to finish up what we have to do? So, I'm of I have a of many minds and I could go either way on this one and there is no clear-cut action. But one of
the things I absolutely do not want to do is ignore what the public has said to us. It is critically important that we pay attention to that, Jennifer. Um, yes, I wouldn't say I pretty much,
you know, agree with you on that, Lynn. I think I I think we have a lot to do. I mean, I could kind of go either way on when the report um comes in, but I think this council has a lot to do between now and the end of the year. So, I don't and
I don't know that we're necessarily better equipped to review it. I mean, yes, we have experience on the council than the next council. Um I also, you know, following on what um councelor Lord said in terms of what we put on
committees, I don't think the charter review committee actually started to meet until September of last year. So I know it feels like we may have started to discuss the committee and um you know put out the you know called for calves
to be submitted in early 2024 but I think by the time the committee was appointed and formed and they started working it was getting to be the last quarter of last year. So, in that sense, I
understand why they're needing to request an extension, and I'm just concerned to force them to give us the one and only report in 3 weeks. I don't know that that best serves the charter review process.
Anna, so Julian, you said that the council would get a preliminary report prior to the election, which is November 4th. By my interpretation, that means we could possibly get that
preliminary report by the ext initial extension date of October 31st, give or take 4 days. Hopefully, that wouldn't be the the difference maker. I will say I am very uncomfortable with how this particular topic, which is really deeply
important to the functioning and future of our form of government, has been politicized in this meeting and how the election continually is mentioned. I'm deeply uncomfortable with this. Um, that is not to say that candidates or uh that
candidates won't have opinions on it, but I think it's completely inappropriate to be tying those things together when this these issues are not individually on the ballot. So, I would really like to caution us away from this. Um, you mentioned this was your personal opinion. So unless the committee has discussed and come to a
conclusion on trying to tie in the charter Rex with candidate opinion or something like that, I'd recommend we move away from that discussion. But that is my personal opinion. So sharing that there. Um thank you. If we vote one more paragraph, sorry. If
we vote in extension, I believe that we would need to see a preliminary report by October 31st. Uh, I think that if there is a way that we can better support charter review in that time, um, I think that would be appropriate and, you know, making sure that we're able to
to provide whatever support may have been lacking like councelor Lord mentioned. Um, but if there is an extension, I think we need to see something by October 31st. Um, we've missed the two reports that were supposed to come in, you know, with no mention. So, I I I think that that would
be uh that would be an appropriate condition to place on an extension. Councilor Hani. Councelor Hani. Um I guess part of my concern of an extension is that the new council will
face yet another request for an extension. Um it took the body approximately two to two and a half months from the date we appointed them to even meet. So when they requested an extension their first
meeting was in early September of 2024. So when they requested actually it was in late September of 2024. So when they requested an extension to October 31st they were really if you think about it only asking for a one month extension from the 12 months. and they assured us
they would be able to get that done. But um in the last 6 months when we look at what they've accomplished and I absolutely agree um public comment is extremely important
when referring to charter stuff. I mean, I was the charter commissioner that ran the website that put every single public comment on the website to read um by hand. Basically, it was not automated
like we do for council comments. Um that kept every single version of the charter on the website. We were one of the first committees to go out and make it as transparent as possible. the first committees to hold public forums throughout the process.
But this committee spent 11 months from their first meeting basically only listening and not even discussing potential changes. Their retreat where in my understanding was one of the first times they had an in-depth conversation
regarding potential changes was 50 weeks after their first meeting when they had a year timeline originally um and only 7 weeks before the extended deadline to get three reports in.
And so I I struggle with does giving them another deadline help? I don't know because we've been here 6 months ago when we said 6 months would be met and it wasn't. Um will two more months be
met? And if not, I don't want this committee to go on indefinitely. Yet, I want them to do a good job, but it just doesn't seem like the committee has had a sense of urgency to meet the
deadlines that were clear from day one um and clear six months ago. So, I don't know what to do. But I guess one of the questions I have for our clerk, I know the charter says must act in 90
days. We used the word act purposefully. Um, would the clerk consider at the receipt of a report an act of referring the report to a council committee
as sufficient to meet the charter deadline, the charter requirement of acting within 90 days? I think and I ask this because initially assuming an assumption I've had not just when I
was drafting the charter that has this provision but also when we created this committee was that that final report would be enough for the council to actually take votes without referrals. that it would have had um that the
review commission would have had the legal review that these are, you know, clear, consistent, you know, actionable and stuff like that. That they would have full explanations in it such that the council would not need to send referrals to its own committees to discuss
whether to a recommendation that that we would just vote on them. It sounds like if we don't extend that might not be the case, but I'm also worried that if we extend that might not be the case.
And so is a referral to a committee to further discuss sufficient to be considered action such that if we extend to January 5 and then the council on January 5 simply refers
to a committee for recommendations and maybe even further discussion because I don't know where this committee is going what what that report's going to look like. um that that could be a deadline of 9 months
later to pick a number September of 2026 instead of having to come back in while we're dealing with budgets. So that's why I asked the question. I'm going to look to the clerk and then Mandy Joe I'm going to come back to you
and say well what did you think when you put it in the charter? What did you think of his action? I personally I found the whole thing of 90 days to be 90 days to do what? File special
legislation. F what? So, uh Athena, thank you. I I would prefer not to give an extension. It's been a very long process. I I actually wanted Athena to answer
Mandy Joe's question. Thank you. I think what we had envisioned with that was that the final report would come in the form of recommended language that would go on a ballot or be filed as special legislation and the committee's discussion also included other things
like maybe recommendations for changes to the council rules that would act action on that would be discretionary. I think if the council does not extend the deadline for the committee's final report, the council will not receive a
final report that it can act on in the way that I think the charter imagined it would. Um, and I think that there will be some frustration on the part of the community if this process continues to go into committee and be discussed
for months. Um, I know that's not exactly the question you asked, but I I think it would benefit the council and the community to have a final report with those recommendations ready for council action
and then there wouldn't be a need to refer it to council committee. The council could act in the way the charter imagined it would. That's my reading of the charter. Okay, Pam, that was that was very helpful. Thank you. Um,
so I would prefer not to give an extension, but without a product that I can use, um, I won't be able to. If we speed it up and say, I'm sorry, you just have to turn in, you have to turn in the test by
January 5 or October 31st, there won't be enough material in there for us to make decisions about. So by necessity um I will support extending their
deadline. I do want a product that we can quote unquote act on and it was not clear what acting even included but thank you councelor Walker. Um thank you Lynn. I had a statement but
I have two questions really quickly. First one for Julian if you're still with us. Um I'm wondering how often the committee was was meeting. Yes. Thank you, Council Walker. Um can you all hear me still? Yes. Yes, we can.
Great. The committee generally meets bi You need to speak into your mic. Sorry. The committee has been meeting bi-weekly and most recently we are moving now to meet weekly this week,
next week and most likely in the future um just every Thursday 6 p.m. is generally when we're and we also have subcommittees that meet in between that. We have an outreach subcommittee that meets usually on Tuesdays. Their time
varies and on Thursday's feedback subcommittee meets um on alternating purposes. Okay, thank you. Um that was helpful. And then I'm also wondering, Athena, if you might elaborate a little bit more on
what you meant by um if we give an extension that we may not be able to act on this in the way in which the charter intended. Um I think you referenced ballot language and such, but can you elaborate a little bit more on that? I'm not sure I understood exactly what you
meant by that. I was saying that if the council does not grant an extension that the report from the committee might not be in the form that the charter imagined it would be, which is ballot language or special legislation, and it would likely need
further development before the council were ready to take final action on it, such as submitting special legislation or placing questions on the ballot. Okay. And that would not be able to happen with an extension because of
deadlines for questions to go on ballots or what would be the reason it would cause further development. Thank you. Without an extension without an extension. I I don't want to speak on behalf of the committee, but I don't believe the committee would be
prepared to submit final ballot language or special legislation language by October 31st. Oh, you were saying without an extension, not with an extension. Okay, thank you. Sorry. That's probably why I was not understanding what you were saying. I'm sorry. Thank you. Um, no, I think I was just
misunderstanding. Uh, thank you. So, I understand and I'm listening to all of my uh fellow counselors and colleagues in terms of like frustrations and hopes and goals and all of these things. And I I uh find it generally
I Okay, sorry. I'm still trying to formulate how to how to say this, but I feel frustrated in the fact that we won't just simply grant them an extension. I mean, we we talked about this in different ways throughout this entire meeting. Like, our trouble is getting people to serve on committees.
Um like this is an extremely large time commitment. Did you hear they meet bi-weekly? They're going to meet weekly for the next couple of weeks. These are residents who have jobs and families and other commitments and other things going on. And you know, maybe they had sicknesses. I'm sure not every committee
member was able to attend every single meeting. Um I served on a town committee. Um and as a single parent, it's a it's a large commitment. It's a heavy lift. Um we asked for an extension, too. I just am not understanding why we won't just give them the time to do what they need to do. I understand that it might be an
inconvenience to us, but I'm sure it's been a huge inconvenience to them to have to do all of this leg work and they are doing it for the benefit of the town. And so I think ultimately it benefits our entire community to have these documents done thoroughly. Like I I just think it's worth the wait to make
sure that we have something well done and well considered. And I think I I don't know exactly how long the original charter committee took to to put that together. Um, but I'm sure that that took a a considerable amount of time as well. And the charter itself is a huge
document. Uh, you know, I have to go back and reread it every time I am utilizing it or every time I want to reference it. It's not something that's easily digestible, especially for folks who were not working with it on a regular basis prior to this. Um, and it's extremely consequential. Like these
are not minor decisions. This will change the entire way this could potentially change the entire way that we operate. um and would make it easier for us to serve our community. I think we've had times where we have found that the charter asis doesn't even always serve us as a council or how how we
would like to operate as a council. Um and so I just I don't see any issue in granting uh the extension because that is what they're requesting and they are the folks who are working on it. Councelor Hani, um a couple of things in correction to to answer councelor Walker's question.
They were appointed in late June. They're asking for an extension to early January. That is over 18 months from appointment to a request to finish their work. The charter commission when it was elected had exactly 18 months from the
date of election. So that would be from if you counted from the date of appointment. We did not have 18 months and two days. We had 18 months. So they are now requesting longer to do this than the charter commission had. um
if you count similar time frames. Um that that's just to answer your question there. I went back and I'm now reading the exact language of this charter so I can then give you some more information about this. Thank you. Um, in the transition provisions, we used
words like for for um topics for study. Um, not topics for study for some of some of the things. I'd have to find the one. We used the word must. Oh, it's in the um in article 8. Um in the free petition
section we used things like um shall take action in regard to such petitions as they deem necessary and advisable. So that's a requires a vote that the words take action are the intention of the charter commission was
something like that would be take a vote that vote could be refer that vote could be adopt that vote could be table that vote but some sort of vote the words for the periodic review of the charter in section 9.66 say the town council shall
vote upon the recommendations in the report. So in reading that language that doesn't mean refer that's vote on a that that's an up or down vote sort of of yes or no on the recommendation. Now,
that could be if if I'm thinking a little bit more when you're talking about if the recommendation is file a special act to do X, Y, or Z, the vote on the recommendation might be yes, we want to file the special act and we're
going to refer to GO to find the to to bring back the language of that special act on this matter if the language wasn't there. But given this language, what was anticipated is exactly what the clerk said that the the final report that we would receive
from the committee would have all of the language necessary so that the vote and all of the explanation such that the vote was a vote on the recommendation. Yes, we're going to vote if the recommendation is to change this definition from this to
that, we're going to vote on whether to change it from this to that. um not you know something else. So so in that sense that was the expectation was that whatever report we get is something that doesn't need referred that that can just
do it. And I I will just say I still just don't I'm having trouble believing given what we've seen that January 5th will be the end of it and that we'll get we'll we'll get what I just described the expected
get. I I'm not sure I've heard from the chair that that that that there is absolute confidence that if we grant the extension, that's what we'll receive versus we'll receive something to like what we would receive
if we don't get the extension. To answer the last question is we will absolutely be done by January 5th. We will not be asking for a third extension. And I would just add that on
top of that, we will theoretically have you three reports by that time. Um, I can guarantee you you will have a much clearer final report than if you didn't vote it than if you voted up to end on the 31st of October. Um, and I can also
guarantee you you will have an initial report. Um I it is my hope that you will also have a preliminary report in addition to that if you grant us the extension but I can guarantee we won't be asking for a third extension and you
will have at least two much higher quality report and started meeting our first meeting was on September 19th of 2024 I believe in case that gives any context.
Thanks, Julian. Andy. Yeah. I' I've been uh increasingly confused by this discussion as we've gone on because I had always assumed that because of the way that the charter
is written regarding the establishment of this process that um the report would deal with issues that were modifications and improvements of the charter that
could be done by the council itself and that there would be nothing that would require either special legislation or u voter approval that that was beyond the scope of what
was expected in a charter review. uh and I give the most u stark example and that is deciding to change the executive uh to an elected office
u from uh one appointed by the council. That could only happen by going back to the voters and going through the charter process from the beginning. Um, and the same thing is true of special
legislation. Plus, I have my uh cynical view of special legislation because we have special legislation we've been trying to get passed since the uh uh council first took office and uh it hasn't happened yet. So, you know, to
think that that was a valid thing to think about is proposing something that would require special legislation when we haven't even gotten the legislature to do something that they did for East Hampton and establishing a uh rank
choice voting system. I mean I am just so totally um taken aback by the discussion of what um was the thought as to where this process might lead. Athena I have a question.
Has any of the work of the charter commission gone for legal review charter charter review committee? Um, I I think you should ask Julian. He's still here. Yes, Julian. Has anything from the
committee gone for legal review? Everything has gone to Collins to the Collins Center for review. Nothing has gone to KP Law for review. Thank you,
Councelor Lord. Um, really quickly, I just wanted to earlier when I was talking, I I slip of the tongue, I kept saying citizens because I'm doing some other work with ACLU and I just have to make it clear. I just mean residents, our community. I'm not trying to differentiate that. All are loved and
welcomed and important in this community. And then the second thing was I heard you Julian say no, we'll really get the the third. We'll get it there. But before you said that, I was going to say and how could I help or any of us just if there are issues or anything to
make sure that deadline is met. I'm sure there's other counselors that are available in whatever way we can legally and situationally help you all meet that deadline. So, thank you. I think one of those one of those things,
Julian, go ahead, please. I was just going to say that's an excellent question and I would say one of those things would be to submit the report of counselor feedback that we submitted to all of you in your emails. And one other
way is if you would like to attend our meetings and sort of not necessarily assist with the report drafting but jump in and sort of join our discussions. um to say like this I think counselors
would support or this we don't think counselors would support that might move us towards a little bit quicker decisions. If you have the time and capacity for that it's definitely appreciated. If not that's okay too. Thank you though. Julian the other thing I believe that you've recently asked for is there is
another round of public feedback and you've asked for counselors to help advertise that. Correct. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Pat. Pam, um I think there's still a vacant position on the on the commission if I'm
not mistaken, and I think there were several people that were lined up with community activity forms willing to serve. Perhaps having another couple of people um available to help carry the load might help.
That's that's correct. So, um, go did finally was finally able to find the pool sufficient, but, uh, go has also gotten slammed with about five different bylaws in the past four days. So, we have not been able to get to the
timing of that vacancy posting. We did join the charter review uh committee a month or many moons ago and um there was mixed feedback as to the the um
sorry it's it's past 10 so you're I'm losing my words here. Uh there was mixed feedback in terms of what the adding the person at this late stage would be helpful with. Some members felt it would be helpful, some members felt it would not. Uh there was not it did not seem that there was a clear consensus on the
committee. Julian, if the committee has since taken any sort of formal vote on that, I'm happy to defer to you. Nope. That's an excellent update. Thank you. Okay. The question on the question before the council is the following
motion. In accordance with charter section 9.6 6 to extend the 2024 Charter Review Committee report deadline to January 5th, 2026. It's been made and seconded. We're going to move to a vote.
We start with Pam Rooney. Yes. Councelor Ryan, no. Kathy Shane, yes. Andy Steinberg, no. Jennifer Tob, yes.
Councelor Walker, yes. That was a yes. Is that correct? Yes. Thank you. I just didn't hear it. Uh Pat D'Angelus, hi. Anna Delin Gothier.
I councelor Ete. Lyn Griezmer is an I. Councelor Hani. No. and uh councelor Lord I
motion passes with nine people in favor three people opposed and uh one person absent. I want to do a time check. Um we have two uh
let me get to my actual agenda. We have two presentations. One of which has to happen because it otherwise will not lead to the timely completion of the town manager evaluation process. The other is on Hickory Ridge and assistant
town manager Dave Zomac has been patiently waiting. We also have not we have still the uh proclamation that was um taken off of the consent agenda and um
the liaison reports etc. U plus I did want to make sure that people understand what our future agendas look like through the month of November at least. So um thoughts
Wonderful. Is it possible for uh committee and liaison reports um to be carried over and combined at the next meeting so we're not uh using that time and if they're
Yeah. And because you know they're important but I feel like come on it's late. Thank you. Um Dave, you want to enter the room please? I know you've been waiting patiently. Yes, Dave, you have a quick presentation
for us. We're going to ask that you even be briefer. Yeah. Give What I was going to suggest, Lyn, I I know your your upcoming agendas are tough, but I mean, I have a pretty full presentation. It's like 15 slides. There's a lot of information there. I
know the council hasn't seen it. Would it be better to have Athena send it to you tonight, digest it, and me come back? I I don't want to put this off, but I can roll through it quickly, but there's just a lot of information. It is an update, and you haven't had an update
in a long time. Is there a wish of the council? Kathy, I'd rather get a copy of the slides so I can look at them and then have Dave come and discuss it with us than try to have him
quick read through something that we haven't even seen. So, I don't believe we have that in the packet, Lynn. We do not. Okay. So, I I I think it's a good idea to have things in the packet before it present and I don't think we have enough time to do it justice.
Okay. Uh, councelor. Yeah. Also, just I I did make it clear to the president that I would present it tonight. I did not make any promises that I would have it in your packet. So, and it's just an update. It is nothing more, nothing less. So,
come back at a future meeting. Great. And and uh there have been at least two counselors that have submitted questions in advance. Uh councelor Ryan. So, I agree with Celer Shane. um have him send uh the information to us and if
it's possible he could be at the next meeting and if we have questions we can ask them. Okay Dave, we'll see you on the 20th. Uh but meantime we'll collect any additional questions. Thank you for your patience. Sure. Athena Athena has the
presentation so she can send it out to you and happy to take questions in a couple of weeks. Thank you so much. Right. um in your packet and emailed to all of you on Thursday um was uh the all the pieces for the
town manager evaluation process including the timeline. Are there any questions or comments regarding the town manager evaluation? Pam Brun. Uh thank you. Um just a quick
uh just a request on when might the online version of the um hundreds of choices come to us? Uh it's like 15 pages today. When when
do you when would we um have the opportunity to see the online version and fill it in? Um there is that is in the schedule. The plan is that you should get to the opportunity to see the town manager
self-evaluation first and also get all the feedback from uh uh summarized from staff committees and the community. Um the idea would be that um all of that would come in by Friday, October 31st
and by Monday you would be getting that. And um I will also tell you that while I've set November 10th as your deadline, I will purp I would purposely I would
absolutely and completely um prefer that the deadline be Saturday uh I made a mistake here. It's uh be Saturday, November 8th, I guess,
or the 7th is whatever the Saturday is. And the reason is because writing this up is no small um charge and having two weekends to do that would be good. Anna, you have also been very
involved in this and in fact, you already have an electronic form. Am I correct on that? Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I um my hope was Lynn to I I haven't emailed you this yet, but my hope was to update the electronic version and get it to you by the end of this week. Um and
all you'll have to do is make a copy of it so that you won't I won't see any responses that come in. But um at that point, I'm also able to if people wanted to see what it's going to look like, we could um download a PDF of that so people could just see the the image of
it uh before it's ready to to be sent out to people. So, those are two options, but I'm hoping to finish updating it with all the changes from go and get it to you by the end of this week. And we did um have a meeting with uh Angela Mills um
last Friday to talk about um getting all these other pieces including that ready for you. So, that that is the plan. Are there other questions or comments? I'm please email me with changes
mistakes you found. I wanted to make sure that I got this to you as a result. I did not get a president's report to you this time. I will have either do it between now and the next meeting and just email it to you. But uh I wanted to
make sure I spent more time frankly on what our future agenda items look like. So that's the other piece. Any other questions on that? Okay, then we're going to
uh take up the uh proclamation. Uh it was pulled from the agenda because of several reasons. I received feedback from some counselors that they would be pulling it. I received feedback from the sponsor that she had some changes she
would like to make. So, could we put the proclamation on the screen? And I will point out that in the consent agenda, you did vote to wave the GO review. So, Anna, why don't you tell us about
the changes you as a sponsor want to request? Sure. So, and I'm I'm happy to just do a quick intro. Um, I a resident reached out to reached out to me uh regarding this proclamation. Um, and I I
thought it was a really poignant and meaningful opportunity for the council to kind of reaffirm some of the statements that we've made in the past, but uh in a in a new light, in a new way. Um, and so the resident had sent me some text. I
reformatted it and did some editing to it to get it uh into our typical mode. Um, and I apologize if I missed anything. Um, the edits that would be made to this uh there were a number of additional community sponsors that would want that wanted to have their names
added to this after I had submitted it. And then the community sponsor also had sent a paragraph in um that had been in the original that I had removed that they wanted placed back in. I'm not opposed to it. Um, and I
uh sent that as well to Athena. Um, but because it wasn't in the version that I had sent in initially, it's now here as an amendment. Um, and I also am happy to if there are any sponsors, community sponsors, um,
Lynn, if it's okay to have them speak to this as well, I would be happy to, um, allow I think for the interest in time, we'd like to um, sure, come on up. Um, so Algra Clark again. Um, and I
received a number of texts from friends on September 11th and September 12th when the flag was at half staff in um, honor of Charlie Kirk. And a lot of them were really upset by this and felt like
that didn't represent the values of our community. And there were actually other municipalities that did not follow the order um in places like Iowa and New Jersey. And so Jill Breick and I did come to town hall to inquire about what
was the directive um and u Angela Mills was very kind. and she printed out the flag policy for us and the email from the governor's office so that we could kind of understand where the town what the what orders the
town was following. Um but when a few days later the Senate and the House did decide to declare October 14th Charlie Kirk Day. That also felt really upsetting for a lot of the residents
that I was talking to. And this seemed like a way that maybe we could reclaim some of that in terms of what the the members of the community have been feeling and so this was
proposed. Thank you. Thank you. Um Okay. Uh did you can you highlight the thing that you just added? Okay. Councelor Lord,
I'm wondering if I could be please be added as a council sponsor. I don't know what the process, but I would Alicia Walker, councelor Walker. Yes, I would also like to be added as a counselor sponsor.
Andy Steinberg. Yeah, I'm on a different subject, but I think it's really important that we talk about this. I appreciate the reasons that this has been brought to our attention. Um, but I do have some concerns about it
and particularly um the whereas clause that makes direct reference to Charlotte Kirk. Um Ammerst um is already in the crosshairs of
very nasty national administration because we're a sanctuary city and uh having a resolution of this council that
would include that language is going to draw more attention yet to Ammerst And my concern about that is not about any of us in this room or about the town as a name, but it's some of the people
who are here. because I think that the danger is that if attention is drawn to this town and we um it's going to come in the form given what we've seen in other places
of ICE coming in and harassing people who are here who are going to suffer greatly. And they're the ones that I'm concerned about because if we pass a resolution
with that provision in it, we are making a decision to put a whole group of people at tremendous risk. I am totally uncomfortable with that and
uh you know I would uh ask the serious thought be given as to whether this is a wise idea or whether it's a wise idea with that particular paragraph in it. had come in prepared to do this by a
motion to remove that paragraph which I may make later. But I want to get um just some reaction to the concerns about where the if anybody has been thinking about where this might lead and who's
going to suffer, who's going to be at risk. Tell um we're in very strange times and for the most part this is uncharted
waters for most Americans and we are wondering how we should act in these times. I don't think having the resolution is a good idea.
And as much as I agree with councelor Steinberg, I don't think that removing the mention of Kirk is going to change the blowback, the very potential blowback that could
affect this town. And yes, it will affect those that are weak, the undocumented, but it will also affect institutions like UMass. I had a couple of questions I think last time I spoke and I went long and so I
just want to um be a bit more succinct. A few questions to consider. Do we think of this resolution as parallel programming or counterprogramming?
that is is it brought forth as the town replacing what is going on nationally with the Charlie Kirk remembrance
or is this an opportunity to have a day in addition to what the federal government has related to that. We spent some time this evening speaking about process and
this has not followed the appropriate process because that process would be to go through Joel. This is important because besides dual giving an opportunity for um clarity,
actionability, it also gives an opportunity for the community to weigh in or at least see this particular resolution. This is a resolution that involves the whole town,
but we've bypassed the process so that it lands immediately without given an opportunity for the town to consider it. Question: Does this resolution bring the community together?
Although we may not agree, they are people who were comfortable with Charlie Kirk and don't mind that he celebrated in this town. I should know I'm at UMass. They also deserve to at least be
considered in conversations like this. Are we ready for the consequences again to those who are weak or to institutions like UMass? Question. Why should the pain of a black
man only be visible because of the death of a white man? Charlie Kirk's birthday or not Charlie Kirk but George Floyd's birthday has been known for a long time. It's not a movable feast. It's not a day that changed.
So why does it only now become something that is raised because of Charlie Kirk? This isn't to speak about the character of Kirk who I don't know and I didn't pay attention to. But the point is we have known about George Floyd for a long
time. Why wasn't he being honored until this incident occurred in several occasions I've had to speak about resolutions and one thing I have consistently emphasized is how to make
resolutions local so that people understand how what we do in the council relates to what goes on in the town. And for the most part, I don't see that here because despite
the references to the different resolutions, for example, the resolution affirming the town of Ammerst's commitment to end structural racism and achieve racial equity for black residents.
It relates to just what it's written. It doesn't relate to what the town has done and the town has done some things that we should be proud of. There's a road or much more to go. We have a DEI department that comes from
that resolution. We have crest. It might be hobbling but at least that also comes. We have done several things that we could speak about, but we choose not to
do that. Instead, we seem to be actively reacting only to what is happening on the national stage. Ammerst is not the national stage. Ammerst is Ammerst. And we should be
able to refer to things that happen here. I think ultimately, however this vote goes, I want us to keep in mind
several things. One being that we are a diverse town and we are a diverse country. And part of what that means is we are going to leave with people who may not think like us, who will celebrate things that we may not like.
We should leave room for that. The appropriate thing nationally and in Ammerst would be we do not memorialize Charlie Kirk and also we don't then use George Floyd as a foil to whatever is
happening nationally. Thank you. Councelor Ryan. So, this has me deeply conflicted. Um, as was just mentioned, this is not follow the usual process, but we don't always follow the usual process. It does mean that the community, if they wish to
weigh in, does no real opportunity to weigh in, and that's just a fact. It's unfortunate that this came at the date it did, but that's what it's done. I'm steeply sympathetic to the expression of values that are in this document. I think as
councelor Edis just pointed out, um, we actually live those values every day through DEI, through crest, through the reparations. We don't have to trumpet that to the world. We actually live it. Um but this document does give a very clear and
articulate expression to values that we have expressed before and it's asking us to express them again and it has I think I don't know if the word clever is right but I think a rather u by choosing October 14th and recognizing George
Floyd I think it is a way that that some in our community can at least take an action against many other things that are going on on the national level where we feel powerless. So I have some deep sympathy with the desire to say something and to express
our values. Um even though as I've just said we actually live them and I wish people would acknowledge that more often and through DEI crest reparations our human rights commission um this community really does walk the talk but
the talk has been made clear in other contexts where in fact I was not in the majority talk does matter and I agree. So there's much in this that I have deep sympathy with. I also share councelor
Steinberg's very deep concern that by raising our profile and by particularly mentioning Mr. Kirk and the the celebration, the National Day of Remembrance. Actually, I think both paragraph four and five. Um, we put a target on our back and the people that
will pay for this are not the sponsors of this resolution. They're not members of this council. They will be undocumented people who live in our community who will be se seized up by ICE. They'll pay the price. Or graduate students or posttos at UMass
who lose their funding and their jobs. they will pay the price because I think one thing we can agree upon is that we live in a time right now where there are is a national government that is vindictive and it is always looking for the next place that can strike back
against its perceived enemies. So, as I said, I'm conflicted. Um, I respect and and actually well, I respect the desire to express our values at this particular moment in time. And the use of George Floyd makes an excellent point. He's really
being used here in a larger political struggle. But it seems in some ways rather appropriate as a way to make a statement. But I I cannot support this unless we remove I would say chap excuse me paragraph four and five. Um I think
we should not well I phrase it sometimes as poking the bear in the eye. Um I think there's a way we can affirm our values but also do it in a way that would not draw the kind of attention that would I think bring
potential real harm to people that I think we say we care about. So I would urge the sponsors to consider um removing paragraphs four and five, the two four the whereas number four and whereas number five, but I would be willing and then I'd be willing to
support this as an expression of our values. Um, but as it stands right now, I there's no way I can support this because I know that if this gets the attention of certain individuals or
entities in our federal government, they will use it to hurt people in our community and it won't be any of us that get hurt. Anna, thank you. I'm going to try to take these one by one and I apologize. Please speak more
into the mic. I will try to take these one by one and I apologize if I miss uh miss any. So to you need to speak more into the mic. I don't know to tell you Lynn I'm I'm speaking the same. I'm I'm I'm trying my best here. I'm talking to my computer
directly. Maybe increase your volume then. My volume only makes you louder. It doesn't make me louder. Uh but I will I'll I'll try to raise my own personal voice a little bit. So, uh, Andy mentioned that, uh, Andy and and
George mentioned concern that we're drawing attention to Ammerst and people that will feel harm are not the people pushing this through. I agree. Um, and at at some level and I think it's really challenging to walk that line between advocating for what we feel is right and not pulling unnecessary and harmful
attention. I think that there's often a lot of privilege in being able to draw attention and not face repercussions, which I believe is what you were saying, George, and it's critical at the end of the day to not do harm. Um, that was my initial reason for not including the paragraph that was added in. And
personally, I don't disagree that it would be safer to remove reference to Kirk from the resolution. I am not opposed to that. And I will say that, you know, any resolution where you're working with a lot of other people is is a is a collaborative effort. And so I
think that it does change the the meaning of this. And for me personally, as an one of the sponsors, I believe that the the potential harm that it could cause does outweigh the good of of having it in there. So I would support removing those two paragraphs that you
mentioned, George. Um, councelor et you had asked is this parallel programming or counterprogramming? I see this as reminding people that we have not forgotten this the crisis that this country has been facing for a long time and that we're standing with the the uh community members that have been
deeply impacted by this. Both councelor Et and councelor Ryan talked about this not following the usual process. The community did not have an opportunity to weigh in. Um, yes. And if we had had time for G to do that, if I if the community sponsors and I had linked up
before a G meeting to get this referred to go, of course we would have sent it to G. There's not like an intentional subversion of process here. Yes, that would have been great. Um, the time for I've been chair of G for a little while now and I I got to tell you, I really appreciate the sentiment that um
community members will come to G to talk about proclamations and resolutions. I got to tell you, that's not where they're they're going. They're coming to the council meetings. So, I don't buy this argument that the community has not had a chance to weigh in. I don't think that that's a fair argument. Um the community comes to the council because
the council is who is discussing content. G is talking about clarity, consistency, and actionability. It is not a place where uh public comment is on the content of a resolution is as helpful because we are not discussing content. I will which I know both of you know having been and currently sitting
on go. Um we also did hear several public comments tonight about this resolution and received several emails. So again we there has been public input on this which there are a lot of the times there is not on on proclamations and resolutions. Councelor Ete, you
asked the question, do you think this is bringing the community together? Uh, I see this resolution as a reminder that we need to be able to hold this duality, this messy space of upholding our right to free speech and our commitment to writing the wrongs of our past and saying how we stand with our community
in the face of hatred. I see this as doing both of those things. And uh I think that for me again personally if someone feels isolated and left out by someone else's effort to make our community feel safe and held I I don't
know what to tell you there. I think that we need to prioritize making sure our community feels safe in our community. Um you asked why now councelor Ete this is the day that was chosen uh for uh by the federal government. this is why this day was um
picked and it's a it's an awful coincidence and I don't think that that's what this day should stand for. I think that this day should stand for more of the elements of remembrance and um working towards justice. Council asked uh how to make resolution
or or requested that resolutions be local so that people understand what we do as a council and what we do in the town. Um and councelor I think you and I just have a fun fundamental difference on what we believe that proclamations or resolutions can serve a purpose for. Um
I personally believe uh oh sorry those personal beliefs are constrained to your and my own personal beliefs. This does not extend beyond those. It is not a rule in our rules of procedure. It is not a rule in our charter. So you may disagree with that. Um, and I recommend
that if you would like to see that be codified, that you propose a change to the rules of procedure if you'd like to see resolutions and proclamations stay local. But right now, that is your preference and that is my preference. Um, and I disagree strongly that George Floyd is being used as a foil here. I I
don't Things happen on the national stage that deeply impact residents in Ammerst. Sometimes that impact is not quantifiable, like losing a federal grant or something like that. uh stating our care and commitment to our community members is local and I do stand by that.
If I missed a question, I apologize and I'm I was trying to type them all out but happy to hear them later. Dangelus, don't obey in advance. Timothy Steiner's book, that's the first uh on tyranny.
That's his first statement. Don't obey in advance. I struggle with that. uh as a lesbian, as a person who has close relationships with people in the um immigrant
community and the homeless community. I struggle with it as a white woman and my first reaction reading this was, "Yeah, this is good." I had a little trouble bouncing into Charlie Kirk. Somehow or
rather that bothered me. But it is from privilege that I can worry about other people. Um until they start coming for the old lesbians who've had abortions. I'm okay. You know, I can
hide. But people of color can't hide. And one of the things that counselor Ete has made me think, which I was not seeing or understanding
quite before, even though it's something I've struggled with, he's right. As white people, we're using the deaths of George Floyd and other murders of black people. We're using them. We have We didn't
care. We cared when we did the resolution. That was real. And we've cared enough to try to look at ourselves as a community over and over again. And some people will agree with that and some won't. We try. But as white people,
we've consistently used people of color. And I think honestly after hearing this, I think that's what we're doing. And it's wrong. Nobody is going to I don't think we care about George
Floyd's birthday. I don't think we care about his death. We care about his murder. So I, you know, I I right now I can't support this. Uh which surprises me. Um
particularly because the first rule they get us scared so we at bay in advance instead of standing where we need to stand. So I don't know I I wish I had some
profound thing to say but I don't. But I think as white people, we need to begin to look at how did how what are we doing with this proclamation at a different and deeper level. Can I respond to that?
Um I really feel like we need to keep this to a council debate at this hour. I'm sorry. Um if the council feels otherwise, please speak up. I am okay with allowing Algra to speak.
Algra, please go ahead. So, I'm in a lot of online spaces with a lot of people. Can you get closer to the mic so everyone can hear? Is this better? Oh, wait. Um, move it towards me. Okay. Um, I am in a
lot of online spaces where there's organizing going on um with a lot of black organizers and this was actually an idea that had come out of one of those spaces. So, it wasn't my brainchild. it was something that has been talked about in the communities
that are impacted by this and that were really hurt by the federal proclamation um which again happened on the 19th of September which was not enough time to go to go and that was actually the first question I asked to Anna when I
approached her with this proclamation was is there a way to actually get this in front of the council in time for it to potentially be talked about so that it would be on October 14th. Um, and I'll I'll just say that it was a
diverse group of people who signed on in the community as co-sponsors. And there were also a lot of people who said I can't put my name on something like that because I am afraid. And so I do hear that I don't want to put anyone at risk of harm because of this proclamation.
And I also think that Ammerst is already a target and this is already on our website as part of this meeting packet. So unfortunately I think you know the horse is kind of out of the barn on that one. That
doesn't mean that we should approve it because of that. But I think that I think that Amoris is always going to be in the crosshairs. And I think that this is an opportunity for us to be bold and take action and say like we we want
to live our values and we don't think that honoring this person on this day would. Yet, we have these things that we have passed back in 2020 and all of the things that came along with that. And
then again our values that we identified during the global village celebration and those are the things that we would choose to honor on this day. These two men happen to share a birthday. They both were tragically killed. And we're going to remember how one of these men
has impacted our community positively by, you know, his death again was tragic, but it it did bring about the conversations that brought into play the community safety working group and all of their recommendations. So again, I think it's reaffirming those
values by saying, "We don't want to celebrate the legacy of one person who many people were harmed by in this community and feel like it was a hateful legacy, a racist legacy, a misogynistic legacy, an anti-LGBTQ
population legacy, an anti-immigrant, anti-Jewish, anti-Islamic, all of the anti there. We want to celebrate what our community has done and honor the man who died for some of that to come about.
Okay. Thank you. Um, councelor Lord. Um, thank you. I can't speak to Well, I guess I'll go just talk to some of the motivation, but I I have to push back on some of the counselors that um think the
only ones that will be harmed will be the undocumented. And yes, right now the harm is landing horrific horrifically on them. But since the new administration and the federal government, 300,000 black women have either lost their jobs or been forced out. There's been
lynchings since that other man's death. Black and brown bodies are targeted every day. So when I saw this, I was so happy and excited for a moment because it was something to counter some of the hate and the harm. I tell you the racism
like this man that died. It's horrific that he died, but how did it pass unanimously when Martin Luther King Day didn't even and he was never a hatemonger? These kind of racist chunks that we have to swallow are suffocating a lot of us and poisoning. I promise
you, it's killing me. And I know it's killing other residents in Amoris that walk around with black and brown skin just having to deal with it every day. And I know this pro proclamation, this resolution isn't going to move the needle. There's still going to
be horrific racism. It's in our DNA. It's in our everything. But for me, it was a moment that like, thank you. You're seeing that we're really suffering still and even more so under the daily assaults that we have to bear.
I just wanted to push back that it is not just the undocumented and I'm fighting for them and I'm working with them and I'm doing everything I can to help them. But please know also your black and brown residents and probably other people like LGBT that I'm not even mentioning. But it is going to it is
causing us all harm. And saying that I will still be the target and I will still do it every time cuz it's important to the younger people that look like me, that are darker than me, that are lighter than me. It just it's important. So, I just needed to push back a little bit on that. We're not
going to be harmed cuz I promise you I'm harmed every day. Thank you. Uh, councelor Hani, I like counselor D'Angelus initially read this and said, "Okay, this makes a lot of sense." Um,
and then I listen to my fellow counselors and I also struggle with exactly everything counselor D'Angelus said about not capitulating out of fear
preemptively in a sense. Yet what counselor Ete said about using a black person's death in what could be considered a performative manner is exactly what all
of our anti-racism training has told us we should not be doing. And so I'm sitting here not knowing what to do. And part of that is because what I'm hearing is this proclamation is to counter and to c, you know, to
counter one thing, but to celebrate what we as a town have said our ideals are. um inclusivity, diversity, not misogyny, not anti-LGBQ,
you know, not racism, you know, not we are so much better than that. But then I read the now therefore and it's not really bringing all of that in and I think that's also where I'm
struggling. it it's bringing police violence and structural racism in and that's about it. Um, it's not bringing the rest of what our global village festival and our
Pride Day proclamation and everything else we've done for all of our diverse communities, our Tibetan communities, our LGBTQ communities. It it leaves a lot of the countering
of Mr. Kirk's rhetoric completely out and I know it's not my proclamation and so I I I could write one that brings it all in. Right. I I understand that too. But so I look back and I look at this
and I will just say I don't know which way to vote because of all of what I've heard tonight from those in favor, those not those concerned. and then just reading
the now therefore after listening to all of that. Councelor, uh, let's see. I'm I want to make sure everybody's had a chance to speak. Councelor Ryan, you've spoken. Councelor Ete, you've spoken. Anna, you've spoken. I'm going to go to
Councelor Walker. Um, thank you, Lynn. Um, I Yes. Sorry. I I'm am struggling with this conversation a lot right now. Um and I think I want to first acknowledge that we are we are living through unprecedented times. Um
and it's scary. It is very scary. Um it's scary for a lot of people for a lot of different demographics and there is a lot happening. Um, and so I don't want anyone or anything I say after this to to more than one thing can be true at a time. And that just remains true above
all. A lot of people in our community are suffering right now. People in our community have been suffering. Right? We passed the resolution on December 7th, 2020 affirming our commitment to ending
structural racism. we explicitly mention the murder of George Floyd in that resolution. We are not using George Floyd to foil anything like this is remaining consistent with the with the statements that we've made as a council
in the past. This this is very consistent with our actions. This is consistent with what we say that we stand for as a community. I'm struggling with some of the statements that some of the counselors made, but I but I think
I'm also just it's very personal, right? This is very personal to me. Not everyone on this council is a white person. Some of the people on this council come from families like some of our parents are immigrants. Like this is this is very very important
for us as a community to signal to our community members that we care. We are listening. We are understanding and we are acting to the best of our ability. There is only so much we can do as a council. I feel like a resolution is the absolute least that we can do. It is
just a statement. We are taking no real action. I understand that some of the whereases are mentioning Kirk's rhetoric, police police violence. All of those things are
examples of structural racism which we again have committed to working to dismantle. Like none of this is just none of this. Somebody said we don't care about Charlie. We don't care about
George Floyd's birthday or we don't care. I care very much. I care every single day of my life. Like this is precisely the reason I have I've run to be on the council. This is precisely the reason I do the work that I do every single day of my life because I care very deeply about the people in my community being harmed. And I think
it is again the least we can do as a council to pass a resolution that remains consistent with the values that we have said that we had. The DEI department and the crest department. Those are pieces of things that have come out of the resolution that we passed and we need to continue
reaffirming. We need to continue funding the crest department. We need to continue supporting the DEI department. con continue supporting these staff members in the work that they're doing in our community. That is how we stand on the commitments that we have made as
a council. It is only symbolic when we just talk about it. We have just voted as a council to literally freeze crust positions. Like I just need us to think about this more holistically as a picture.
Yes, there is risk. There is risk to everything, but we need to stand for something as a community. And I think that that's what makes our community safer. When we stand for our community, when we provide them with the resources and the programming that they need to remain safe, when we stick together, that is what makes our community safe,
that is what makes our council accountable to the statements that we have made in our past. Kathy, I'm I'm sorry, Pam Rooney, you've not spoken. and then I'm going to go back and get the other people who have their hands. I appreciate what everybody has said
tonight. Um, I would support the the suggestion that Andy made to take out the and I think George also to take out the references to Charlie Kirk. This is a person that um I I actually don't want to have recognized in a proclamation in Ammerst.
And I think the I think the um support for George Floyd and this and the changes that have been taking place in Ammerst because of his death are the positive ones that we want to reflect on. Let's get rid of the the
reference to perhaps the impetus for creating this proclamation. It will still have a lot of meaning for the community. It'll still be a support, but we don't have to acknowledge this person that,
you know, makes my blood boil. Is Is this a motion to amend? I could I could make a motion to amend. Yes, please. There isn't a motion to adopt on the floor yet. Oh, thank you. You already did George already make it? No, I
There's no motion on the floor yet. I'm going to make a motion the floor. Hold on. I have a question. Hold on. To adopt the proclamation recognizing October 14th, 2025 as George Floyd Day
as presented. Second. And that includes the addition of the names. It does not include anything else. That's the motion. Is there a second? Um there there was the addition of names
and also that whereas clause. I'm sorry. There were there was the addition of names and also a whereas clause that was added. Would you please put everything up on the screen? Okay, thank you. So that's the motion. Is it Is there a second?
Second. Okay, the motion's been made and second. Now Pam, would you like to make any um motion to amend? Okay. Yes. Um, I would like to remove the paragraph
starting whereas while the federal government has approved a resolution making October 14th blah blah blah, I would like to remove that paragraph and the paragraph that is highlighted in yellow. Is there a second?
Is there a second? I will second. Um I would also offer a friendly amendment, but let's let me second and then we'll go on from there. Okay. What's the friendly amendment? Well, I think we'll see what the council
decides. But the fifth whereas clause really kind of hangs out in the wind there if you leave it in. So I would uh add I would ask respectfully that the counselors um amend this so that four,
five and six are removed and um so I don't know what thinks but that's my suggestion. Okay, Pam, I'm going to go back to you as the person who made the motion. Do you accept that as a I think the one that's highlighted in gray right now is actually very
appropriate. Well, it's not Yeah, it's not. Okay. Then we're going to go with Pam's motion. Okay. And it's the motion's been made and seconded. Um that's the motion on the
floor. Okay. Um if somebody wants to make an additional motion, they they can do that, right? Or do we have to vote on this one? We
have to vote on this. We need to vote this amendment and amend a an amendment. Could Athena just scroll down so I can see what it's going to look like without those two. Okay. All right. The motion's been made and seconded. Are there any further
comments about the amendment? George, you um have your hand up or Pam, did you want to speak any further to your amendment? Okay, George. Yeah, I just again want to speak to the
amendment. I think um first of all, I did have a concern. has been expressed a number of times this evening about the fact that we might be using George Floyd as a kind of uh you know pawn in a larger political struggle. But I think councelor Walker makes the point quite
correctly that this has been something Mr. Floyd has been an important part of of what we have been thinking about as a community. So um I don't see that objection. I think that the focus on him and choosing this day to rec to remember
him seems quite appropriate. But I do feel, as I've said already, that um the mention of Mr. Kirk um and is just is just too dangerous, too risky, something that that I think if it well, we've
already talked about it, so I I share uh Council Rooney's idea that I I just don't want him in here at all. I don't want to see his name. Um, and for the other reasons I've stated. So, I hope that counselors will support this amendment. Um, I thought that five by
itself, I certainly agree with the sentiment 100%. Um, I just feel that it doesn't really fit with the overall, but I don't really care. I think my main concern is to remove the references to Mr. Kirk. Council,
please speak to your mic. No, I support him. Thank you. Uh, Anna. Yeah, I I I do have a quick comment on this, but my hand was up from before. I think basically to to simplify I don't know why I'm quiet. Can you turn me up in there? Because I'm I swear I'm doing
the same thing I've been doing all night. Um, basically we're saying George Floyd was murdered. Murder is bad. So that's kind of the tiein there in my mind. Um, and we can get more specific if if you want. basically, you know, talking we're talking about uh it it it
makes sense in my mind because the paragraph before this is saying George Floyd was murdered and the entire thing talks about the murder of black men by police and then the paragraph below says murder is bad in uh especially
my summarizing skills have left the building identities they hold for the identities they holdracted that's the one thank you um the In my mind, the linkage is there. I could have said that in one sentence. Sorry for taking 10.
Okay, Jennifer. Yeah, I have a question. I might have been not in Amherst on that day. Was So, I'm sorry for asking a question. I should probably know the answer to. Did Ammerst lower a flag? Yes.
Okay. So, so I'm a little um they were lowered on September 11th, not just for September 11th, but because of that proclamation, I believe they stayed low lowered until they were right. So, I I don't support the amendment then. I
think if Ammeris lower the flag because maybe we were ordered to do that by the governor that I am comfortable stating that that we we were not honoring the person for whom the flag was lowered. I
mean I that's I I think it that I feel very comfortable making that statement. we I because I think that didn't didn't reflect my values and it didn't reflect I know I can't speak for everyone in Amherst but
I feel that it didn't probably um represent feel quite comfortable the the values of the majority vast majority of residents in Ammerst and I think if we leave that whereas if we take out the
two whereas clauses and leave the one in the middle I mean George Floyd was not killed for his political beliefs. He was killed, you know, because he was black. And so that's why that doesn't that doesn't it's I I so I don't support
the amendment. I mean that that clause does not follow that whereas clause. I don't know which one it is. one to but without the reference to Charlie Kirk in the clauses above and after that one sounds like it's pertaining to George
Floyd and it's not the the motion on the table is to amend by removing these two paragraphs please speak only to the motion at this time well I am speaking to the motion I don't support it yes that's correct you are um
Pat you have your hand Jennifer, thank you. Thank Jennifer, thank you for what you said. I'm uh sitting here and I don't know whether I'm It's too late. I'm tired. I don't know whether I'm speaking to in the right place at the right time.
But it seems to me um the uh the wherew the federal government has approved. I have no trouble deleting that. And then whereas the murder of an individual for the
identities they hold which and Jennifer I would say which include race, class, their race, class, sexual orientation, gender identity, immigration status or religion should uh
um or their and for the for their political beliefs blah blah as the free speech they practice is never permissible and should be condemned at all levels. I'm I may not have read that very well, but because
I'm cited and it's hard to see, okay, but I feel like what Jennifer said was really important. And so I think we can bring those elements up into one uh whereas the identities they hold, what
those identities are or their political beliefs or free speech blah blah blah. The motion on the floor is to eliminate these two paragraphs. If we're going to make additional changes, we have to vote on this motion and then move um vote no on this and move on into
Okay, George. I mean, councelor Ryan, you have your hand up. I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive, but perhaps they are. I I'm very I find much agreement in the thought of taking some of the language from the Charlie Kirk's history of
taking the uh the phrases that councelor D'Angelus has just ex uh read and inserting them uh in the whereas above. Um, so I'm hoping that we will remove the reference to Charlie Kirk in those two and then I hope we will go back and
and add much of that language back into the whereas cause that is currently there. Um, but right now we're being asked simply to remove uh these two and I hope people will do that. But then I would certainly move that we take most of that language and put it back in. Um,
again, my desire, as I believe councelor Rooney expressed, is to remove references to Charlie Clerk. We're going to vote on the motion that's on the floor. Lyn Lynn, point of order. Pam, this is Pam speaking. Yeah. If I made that correction, can I add
that into my my own amendment without having to go through the rig and roll of doing it twice? Yes. Okay. Cleveland, the the characterizations
based on race, class, sexual orientation, gender identity, immigration status, and religion should go up into the previous paragraph or their political beliefs and their or the right
um and then what's remaining in the whereas yellow with Charlie Kirk's history and whereas the federal government are now both yellow and both of those paragraphs could be deleted. Okay. Who seconded the motion? George,
do you agree with these? I I do. I would need to see it on the screen, but uh yes, I do agree. Okay, it's here. This paragraph is edited now. Yes. Wow. Okay. The motion on the floor then is to
amend this proclamation as you see it on the screen, which includes excluding one paragraph, taking pieces of another paragraph and adding it in with the paragraph above and um the other
changes. And so that's the amendment. We're going to vote on the amendment. Once we get to vote on the amendment, if it passes, we will then go back and vote on the full thing. This is the vote on the amendment. Um, councelor I don't know Kathy Shane.
Okay. George Ryan. Huh? Vote. We're voting on the amendment. Thank you. Yes. Kathy Shane. I'm going to abstain. Andy Steinberg. Yes.
Jennifer Tub. No. Councelor Walker. Yes. Patanggeles. I Anna Delin Gothier. Hi. Councelor Ete I.
Lyn Gremer's an I. Councelor Hani. I. Bob Hegner's absent. And councelor Lord. Nay. And Pam Ernie. Yes. Did you say no? I said yes.
Yes. Thank you. So, we have two, five, six, seven, eight, nine eyes, two nays, one abstension, and one absent. The amendment passes. We're going to go back now to the original motion. The original
motion is for the proclamation as you now see it on the screen with those areas deleted and added. Um, this time we will start in fact with Pam Rooney. Nope. We'll start with Kathy Shane. I'm sorry.
Yes. Glenn. Um, Andy Steinberg. Yes. Jennifer Tub. Yes. Councelor Walker. Yes. Patanggeles. Hi.
Anna Delin Gothier. Hi. Councelor Ete. No. Uh, Lyn Gremer is an I. Councelor Hani. I, Councelor Lord. I, Pam Rooney. Yes.
Councelor Ryan, I. The motion passes. Um, with I guess 11 in favor and one net, one opposed and one absent.
Did I get that correct? Huh? Thank you. Thank you. You've now watched sausage being made. I'm sorry. That was the actual motion to approve the proclamation, not the motion. That was the motion to approve.
That was the motion to approve the proclamation. Thank you for hanging in with us. Thank you. Okay. Uh we've already approved the minutes. Let me just go back to the agenda. Can I just make a request? Yeah.
Can we go directly to future agenda items so that then I can make a motion to adjurnn and skip the rest? Yes. If unless there's an objection. Okay. So, this is the lineup, at least the way
I hear it right now. October 20th, Eversource hearing on an underground duck for a bus EV charging station. Resolutions um in support of DEI department grant. That's a grant that requires that the
council pass a resolution in order to apply. We'll have a memo in relationship to what we have to commit to if anything. Uh there'll be two presentations. I'm sorry, there'll be three presentations. Um one is the a long range road and
sidewalk plan. The second is the town manager selfassessment and the third is Hickory Ridge under action items. If we come if it comes from TSO 151 Amity Street request
for removal of one parking space proposed zoning amendments from the staff that'll be a referral that's for Ma uh referring to Main Street. We'll have memos with that. The public urination and defecation bylaw first
read um the uh second read for the um inclusionary zoning that we heard tonight. the first read for ADU as long as it comes out of G and the second reading would be two weeks later. The first reading for the transportation and
parking commission charge and public ways policy. Um and then and that's two different things. Second second reading would be um the two weeks later. Um, and then unknown at
this point is whether we're I don't think we're going to be ready for free cash or anything like that. Are we, Paul? No. Okay. Uh, and we there will be a library update. I will have a president's report. We will
have a town manager's report. We don't vote on tax rates at this point, do we? I don't know why that's even there. Okay, that's two weeks from now. Bring your sleeping bags. That was just one agenda.
Yes. Oh, that that's totally impossible. We just can't talk so much. Chitchat. Let's go. November 3rd. This one gets worse. Uh 6:00 financial
indicators, a joint meeting with the library trustees and the school committee as well as one regional representative who has been named by the um chair of the who's been named by the regional school committee. Then we have
a regular town council meeting. Uh we should be doing a small business Saturday proclamation. Um we have presentations and discussions. Um, we did an extension for the charter review, so that's not there.
Uh, there will be an update on the seven actions voted by the council on November 14th, 2022 and with from CSWG and a discussion with CSSJC. That's also the night we would look for
the human rights commission annual report and proposed change in their committee charge bylaw. Action items would be second reading of public urination and defecation, transportation and parking commission and public way
policy and second reading on ADU zoning. second read and then the question then possibly we hope um the proposal for the resident oversight bylaw charge and update from CSSJC
and or actually it's from the committee um whether or not there's town any town council appointments we don't know and I guess I do another president's report that's another meeting That's November
3rd. Okay. Finally, November 17th. We start at 5:00. Town manager evaluation reading. Joe Cumberford and Mindy Dom have requested and we set it on a date a long
time ago of November 17th for them to attend a council meeting. um the approval of supplemental appropriations or maybe even if there are any referrals. We don't know where we are on solar bylaw and that should be
the night we introduce the town manager goals. That means go has to work on that and bring it forward having a good time. Yep. I have my hand up for Andy. I'll be real quick on this, but um one
is Heather Stone. Where we left it was is that the C that was already presented to the council with recommendation. We did not discuss it again and change or change the recommendation at TSO.
Um, Athena would have to tell us there was motion to postpone or how that came about, but I think that it's actually before the council still. It's still before the council, but there was a plan that district two counselors Pat and I would hold a Heather Stone, a
meeting with Heather about Heatherstone and then bring it back to the council. Okay, that and the other thing that I just wanted to say is that a couple of I've talked with one other counselor about this. I'll be real quick because I
think it belongs to go to decide, but we've for years had this reading period which is the most awkward period of any council meeting whatsoever. And I think that and I've said this before for many years, this is my last opportunity to
say it again. And that is that there really ought to be a process that at some time in the afternoon that those become available to the council and if necessary to the public and that people have the opportunity to just read it at
home and then come in. And uh it would be a lot easier than doing it in that awkward situation that we've been doing it for the last six years and pass up pizza night. That was a joke. Uh I will explore with the uh town
manager and then the clerk of the town council whether we can adjust that. George, just echoing that. I really really would appreciate it. um to the point where I probably won't even come at 5:00 if we
end up doing it the usual way because I find I cannot read the comments and get anything out of them sitting there for an hour and a half and so I please if we get them in advance we can at least read them and think about them.
I will get back to you. Uh I do also want to mention that we will have a um come up with a acronym in a moment. Um, we will have a BCG meeting on November 13th at noon and
I have uh notified the school committee members and the um regional members and the Jones Library members as well. So
I make a motion to adjurnn. Is there a second? Second. Okay, we have to do roll call vote. Sorry. Sorry. Uh count uh Andy Steinberg. Yes. Jennifer Tob. Yes.
Councelor Walker. Yes. Pat D'Angelus. Hi. Anna Deon Gothier. Hi. Councelor Rete. Hi. Lyn Griem. I councelor Hickeyi. Uh, councelor Lord I. Amaroon yes.
Councelor Ryan I. Kathy Shane yes. It's unanimous with one counselor absent. The meeting's adjourned at 11:551.