##VIDEO ID:KVhQFr6mVao## okay you're all set go ahead hi everyone welcome to the ammer Charter Review Committee uh meeting we are starting at 6:30 today uh due to a slight communication error um but I will be getting us started and going around um with saying if you can hear us and be heard um I'll go by who's on my screen Bernie I'm here uh Marcus here uh and Andy here Meg I'm here and I'll just say I have something going on that make I may need to step away I'll just step away but I will be on mute Ken here Rafael here and Erica I am here I'll be on camera in a little bit I am here no worries um so first things first I'll just say for our announcements um Rafael it's your turn to take minutes is that is that all right by you it is great um and then Marcus uh you're up next for our next meeting and then the schedule will restart um and that's me so the schedule then restarts with me yep um so just a little bit of a reminder there and then uh trying to think is there other reminders announcements um I believe everybody's heard but Dan has resigned from the committee um for a number of reasons um that he shared with me on the phone a few days ago uh so he made that decision and we will be working to find him a replacement um I'll describe that process a little more and take questions for that um at Agenda item 8 so we'll go to approve the minutes um of January 16th uh I'll make the motion to approve the minutes of January 16th second second great motion made Marcus seconds Meg yes I have a question later but I'm gonna abstain because I have not seen the minutes you guys have questions about the minutes ask them now before we vote no mine was about something else that you said before the minutes came up where are the minute minutes I don't see them in the meeting packet yeah I haven't seen them I didn't I got the minutes themselves but I didn't Athena do you have the minutes or Dan the minutes you don't have minutes oh well then let's not approve them oh what what what are we doing how embarrassing that I approved them wow uh yeah that is embarrassing for me to make that motion too um wow uh do we because Dan was going to write them up um but Dan resigned so we don't have the minutes and Athena will write up the minutes and bring them to a future meeting I believe okay um thank you Athena great uh public comment um for anyone participating in the public uh you can raise your hand on Zoom or press star n um on a telephone and I will bring you into the room and let you speak for 3 minutes uh so if anyone from the public would like to speak now is your chance um raise your hand or Star nine you see anyone Athena nope okay great um so now we will Meg what is your question about I've just I'm just curious you said that um Dan gave you as reasons is it would it be helpful or appropriate to know what they were would it be something that would be informative for us we can discuss that um I put on agenda item number eight committee vacancy um so we can discuss that and sort of get into it then uh obviously I'll paraphrase as best I can but I don't want to speak for him Andy yeah I'm I'm just looking at the um meeting packet I don't see the agenda in it I can show you the list of topics here yeah I didn't find it either I also couldn't find it it's here on the calendar huh just going to take a picture of it here we go so my next thing in my absence I did watch the recording and it seemed like people had more questions about the scope of work so I figured to bring that back um with the scope of work for the Colin Center that we looked at last time uh would you mind screen sharing that again Athena if not um that's okay too and I'll sort of combine this with Andy's update um from the Colin Center uh and combine it into one maybe I can edit it on the screen I have a I have a PDF so I can't edit this okay do you have it in an editable format I do I'll screen share that um that would probably be easier for the committee is the memo dated January 2nd yep okay I have it here um I'm just going to get it in an editable format so that we can make edits based on what Andy uh learned from the Colin Center and then vote to approve yeah there we go I'm G I don't know if we'll get to that point based on the conversation I I I can give you what I heard and there we go yeah um if you want to if you want to describe what you heard and um and then we'll review this that sounds appropriate yeah um I uh actually I had let's see um I have an email that I sent to him to the PE the people that there that I talked about that I summarized if you want me to share my screen people can see it or I can just read it if you want to just read it out that's fine yeah okay so I met with uh via Zoom with Anthony Wilson who directs The cins Centers Charter team and with Mike Ward who directs the center and who previously St after our Charter commission work um and they both I think Anthony had seen Athena at the MMA conference and um um uh Mike had seen Paul bachan so they were somewhat familiar with the fact that we have a charter commiss committee and Charter Review Committee and so on um Anthony Wilson the director of the charter team there um is available to attend our next meeting via Zoom and do a free presentation on how other Charter review committees have done their work and the resources the Colin Center can offer we can discuss our needs with him at that time and he can come back with a detailed scope and budget after that he said it would be likely maybe up maybe up to $20,000 although a number have been in more in the 12 to $15,000 range depending on the level of support um we discussed starting with initial with an initial or a Consulting contract to support our current work framing strategies resources um which could then be amended if and when we need more support such as meeting facilitation or winnowing of input down the line he said he could send a scope and a budget for that for that initial piece in about in a week or so so maybe next week sometime okay great the Collins Center is in demand for Charter work so their staff would not be likely available until March okay um that gives us time to get the funding approved and maybe we could get some access to to resources you know models they have a Data Bank of survey questions which I think would be particularly valuable since they're they're tested questions and they wouldn't be leading the uh the interviewees or the survey folks maybe we could get some of that before March once we have certainty that that we will be able to do a contract yeah I think that I think having those would be helpful before that um did you say that they would provide us a scope of work or that we need to provide that to them he said he could survive he could send a scope of work and a budget for that initial piece um okay next week sure um and then would we as a committee I guess would approve that and send it off to Paul he said he could send it next week that was my understanding but he's also he's also available and he's put in his calendar that he can come to our meeting via zoom on the 13th yeah we could talk more about it then or we could we can see what we get next week and see if that's something we need that we want to just submit to Paul just get things okay I I'll definitely put it on the agenda to have it at our next meeting I guess we'd want to take a committee vote to have him provide us with a scope of work in a budget um that we would then forward to Paul so Bernie yeah I would hope that we could have uh Anthony at at the next meeting and dialogue with him around uh what the col Center has done and what they SE other communities do and if he can get us a draft scope of work for you know prior to that all the more uh that's better because we'll have some notion about what he's gonna talk about it right you know I think that's that's preferable and to try to go through this letter right now and added it I think we should um agree that he'll he'll present to us and he'll give us he'll give us a draft yeah I I agree I think that seems reasonable um after all it is what we're paying them for so that that that seems to make a lot of sense to me um I guess I'll just try to keep more formal um and say that I'll move that we request the Colin Center through Andy um like you can ask them Andy uh request that the Colin Center develop a scope of work and a budget for us and that the budget they develop be sent to Paul bachan so um yeah it should come to us before it goes to Paul yeah know I agree yeah yeah I think um what he said was that you know he can talk to us about our needs at the next meeting and he can give us a full scope after he after we have that conversation but if wanted um an initial scope for just like what kind get get you started help can they give us on a Consulting sort of email yeah yeah phone call basis then before they even have staff available then he could let us know what that would be probably next week okay I would ask if he could do that that would be great um so that sounds good great okay excellent um so that takes care of well if we you you made a motion so we've got to second it and all that sort of good stuff right I'll just I guess I guess I'll reward my motion to say I move that we uh that we request a scope of work and budget from the Colin Center that will come to our next meeting to be approved by the committee and sent to the town manager I'll think on that great um um myself I'm an I uh Marcus hi Erica hi Meg hi Andy hi Ken hi Bernie hi Rafael hi that's unanimous great um so that excuse me so that approves the scope of work uh that pretty much takes care of the budget update with the exception of just uh rough printing cost for if we want to send a townwide mailer would be around $55,000 and I believe that Paul's been made aware of that I think I emailed him about that um that takes care of agenda point 6 an update from Andy uh so our next Point um making good time here great is um is is agenda point 7 uh assign and schedule meetings with elected officials um I know Bernie has some documents about that he was goingon to share so I'm happy to take a look at those but you had your hand up actually before before we we move on I just wna caution that if we're going to request money for mailings or meetings or public Gatherings anything like that that we have to be uh it has to be lead pipe certain that we're going to spend that money before the end of the fiscal year June 30th if we get a contract with the Colin Center and it's not finished by June 30th we can that can be considered continuing appropriation and the money will just roll into the next fiscal year for stuff like you know we're gonna if we want a budget for mailer we're gonna have to make sure the mailor goes out and that money gets used otherwise it's gonna we're gonna have to have it reappropriated the next fiscal year just one of those housekeeping things it can be so so that's June 30th can we like punt it to the you know put a into the next year vote for an extension or is that not hand up I'll let her goad yeah so we heard from Melissa zaty the finance director at the last meeting and she clarified that if there's a if the committee or the town enters a contract with the Colin Center but they're not paid in this fiscal year that's fine because we have a contract signed but other uses for that money they need to be spent in the fiscal year when they're appropriated so an appropriation request that goes through the council right now is an FY 25 appropriation request if the committee thinks that they're going to spend money in FY 26 then you should make that request as part of the foa 26 budget because anything like uh like Bernie said if you're sending a mailer that's going out after June 30th um that money needs to be appropriated in the FY 26 budget or as a supplemental appropriation in FY 26 is there a way for us to enter into a contract with a mailing company now and just the same as uh Colin Center where we would pay them when we need to um you would need to know what you're going to just just trying to figure out ways of getting around the issue yeah so so having a plan ahead of time is is going to be important yes this stage so knowing if you're going to send a postcard with a QR code or if you're going to mail out a survey or if you're going to mail out at the end of your process a summary of what the committee's recommendations are and a final opportunity to give feedback on those recommendations you know what you send out will determine when you need to send it out and um and and then when your appropriation needs to be made so that you can send it at the time that you want to send it so I think the Outreach committee should um maybe take that up yeah I would agree I'd recommend the Outreach committee to decide or make a recommendation on do we want to uh send out a mailer soon do we want to send out a mailer once um we recommend things at what points do we see a mailer is appropriate Andy um I I just was looking at the charge um and it says that our we're going to complete our work by a by the end of April unless we uh ask for an extension so which which year which year is that April of what of this year and my sense is that we're not going to finish by that yeah that's not Happ putting in that request at some point um but um this may be where it makes sense to put um to to um you know put an initial request for the initial scope to get us started work with the Colin Center and then once they you know help us frame along with the Outreach sub Comm subcommittee what what the more extensive work would would be then we ask for the rest to to do that that work and some of it might be in July or some of it might be in right May and June or or April so may I want to suggest that you ask the Outreach subcommittee on which I sit this is a little bit asking for more work but instead of only asking for a recommendation on when to send out the mailer that we might a subcommittee might create a a draft calendar of Outreach yeah would include other things uh beside a mailer there's a whole bunch of stuff not a whole there's several things we're discussing that could it seems to me a calendar would be a structure that you know we can change it but that we could bring to you all Outreach calendar I hope Erica and Rafael don't mind that no I think has hand up Athena um if I may offer a suggestion that you coordinate your Outreach efforts with the timing of the reports that you'll yeah need to present Council so it might be wise to have an idea of what Outreach you're GNA plan in this first phase before your first report and then the second phase before your second report and then a Final Phase before your final report and recommendation exactly good it' be a good idea to coordinate coordinate that with the full committee yeah thank you yeah is the uh the charge does have those distinct reports in there in in sequence have to honor what's in the charge and yep thank you in terms of um interviewing with the uh uh current and former elected officials I added it was requested I added some some questions so to make things a little bit more directive and as I'm looking at this and knowing that the Colin Center will be showing up at the next meeting again I I can't believe I'm saying this but I may want to defer we may want to defer this until we can get some input from them so we're not um uh we're not you you we're not ending up replicating the effort later but if you look in the uh document Center you'll see the U um you'll see the interview format revised document and that uh has four questions in it that U I agree I think it would be it would be better to have the Colin Center take a look at some of these issues and um and sort of propose some Outreach questions that might be sort of the I mean these questions don't look bad but having the Colin Center go and actually look at this um in proposed topic and discussion questions for our interviews would probably give it more of a professional lens and also sort of take out possible bias issues and that sort of thing yeah I don't know that there's any any bias issues in those questions pretty standard yeah kind of approaches um which I I tried to do I didn't wantan to I didn't want to push people in One Direction or another so they're pretty General but I have no problem at all have a great deal of respect for the work that Colin Center does and their staff and I have no problem at all having you know this go to the col center after we talk with Anthony and see what he uh he he may be suggesting I have a a lengthy lengthy list of questions that could be asked what I was trying to do is uh narrow it down to a handful of broader questions that would give people the opportunity to kind of free associate around these these questions so like I said I have no th those folks are Pros um I have no problem letting them take a shot at this great Ken uh I think that's a great idea and I just wanted to ask Bernie Bernie do you do you have the former counselors in mind with these questions as well yeah yeah what what the list of um in last meeting there was a list of current former counselors and current scho committee um in library trustees so you've got uh in this you've got sort of general questions for the the current former counselors for the library trustees and the hammer school committee the regional school committee the G school committee um just a shorter range of of questions because uh I don't those committees aren't well defined in the charter uh they pretty much are referred to and and they operate as statutes allow them so uh you know folks should feel free to look at these if you've got any feedback you want to uh send me an opinion on it please do um just don't send it to everybody just to me I will be happy at some point to compile it all and hand it back but uh uh you know again I I know that the Colin Center uh will want to interview current and former elected officials I don't didn't want to inter interview department heads um they'll they'll have a whole range of of people that should be uh either interviewed or questioned you know you sent a questionnaire something like that and um if we're going to use them and I would hope we do I I really don't want to begin by duplicating an effort I I agree I think having uh I think having the Callin Center review them would be an excellent idea um I I think they're good questions they're generally objective and sort of run-of-the-mill questions that you developed uh but having that sort of professional touch from them would be great uh Andy and then Erica yeah this just reminded me of in the um conversation that I had with Mike and Anthony we were talking about the difficulty of get of getting people up to speed on what's in the charter so that they can answer questions about how it should be changed and they basically said don't ask people how the charter should be changed ask people um you know what's working and what's not working yeah and then we we collect what's working and not working and then we can sort of start to see what might be some answers to help fix what's not working um or and then we bring that back and and talk to them about that so it just reminded me of that and and I think some of these questions do that but we had talked I think at times about pay pain points what are the pain points you know and so that may be the kind of thing that they say if you're doing these initial initial things these elected officials are more technically savvy than you know at least they know probably more how the government operates hopefully than than the average citizen so they they could probably say what's you know what could what could be clarified but in general they're like they've found it useful to just ask people what's you know what's causing pain or what's what's not working and what what is working so yeah Erica um I don't know if it's uh on the I couldn't really tell where on the agenda it falls but in the last um meeting two weeks ago uh there was a conversation that the subcommittee should address not necessarily the specific questions but the protocol for conducting the interviews like how should we go about it what sort of um what what what standards should we have what should be standardized and what should and what technologies or platforms should we use and so the Outreach subcommittee spent some time talking about that so I wanted to offer that up it doesn't have to be now but I don't see a place for it on the agenda so since we're talking about interviews I just thought I would interject okay yeah okay so two so yes two two things that we talked about as a subcommittee regarding this issue um and Megan Rafael you know correct me if I'm Miss stating but one thing that we talked about was the um we we had a discussion and decided that the best approach would be to really standardize as much as possible it sounds like input from the Colin Center is leading Us in that direction in other words to standardize having the same set of questions asked of everybody that we conduct interviews with so that all members are sort of armed with the same set of 10 or 12 whatever questions and conduct the interview based on those questions so that the results are are are standard ored as well that was one conclusion that we came to that would be the a best practice the other one that we came to was the idea of um transcribing uh in our last meeting here two weeks ago we talked about should we should we offer the opportunity for um you know um written answers like where you can just send people a set of questions and have them submit written answers um we talked about the pro pros and cons of doing inperson interviews what we discussed as a subcommittee was the great advantage of having interviews recorded and transcribed so that the actual answers are collected and can be uh offered to interviewees to check for accuracy and then included in whatever final report um I think Raphael referenced a particular Charter review report that I can't remember what town I'm sorry Raphael that included a sort of appendix of transcribed interviews uh interview subjects of elected officials and so on from whatever Town it was um and we discussed it as a group saw the value of that and thought that would be another useful sort of protocol to establish that interviews would be recorded and transcribed we can talk about technological platforms and methods to do that so we're not talking about transcribing by hand um um but those are two things that I just wanted to throw in the conversation about conducting interviews and making sure that we're getting solid and standard sort of results everywhere we go yeah I mean there's very simple transcription technology that you can bring your computer even your phone to a meeting and have it listen in and transcribe a relatively accurate situation of it um with like Ai and that that's not not difficult to do Meg uh thanks Erica for that accurate report on our discussion um I I strongly support what Andy said and people don't know what's in the charter and I kind of I was on the charter commission and I have to look at it sometimes you I really didn't say that uh I don't think it's help not only to ask them what's working or not working but ask encourage them to speak about their own experience yeah Bernie what happened you know what makes you think that or what you know what have you so that it's not just what's working what's not it's not just what they heard but maybe hopefully it's what they experienced or didn't experience hand yeah I think if you I'm in in general agreement with this I think if you look at the questions that I framed that were intended to be asked of elected officials um the the first four of them are pretty are General and and actually uh uh use the term feelings a couple of times uh you know so they're not leading anyone and it's not um you know what's wrong with this it's like what works for you what what what's been your experience the last question is what about specific changes that people would make and again this was intended for folks who had uh at least two years of of working with the charter so uh I don't have a problem with saying that we should record these uh these interviews just keeping in mind that there's a lot of them yeah um and that's that's timec consuming but if you know I'm certainly willing to to to a lot of the time uh to do that um and I I I agree that you shouldn't go out in the world and say what's wrong with the charter because I I still get you know on Charter what are you talking about the Char why do you do why don't you like Charter Schools I mean I still get that right so you know the um the idea would be to get folks sensitized and aware of the form of government we have give them the opportunity toine on that or react to that for when you're talking about um the the the general the general public the questions that I have here are framed for people who have lived with the charter for some extent of time uh and operate under it so uh you know again I'm not I don't have it I don't disagree with with any of the recommendations I think they're they're uh they're fine uh people are willing to invest that time and uh effort into recording these that's great this was not intended uh this was intended to get things started because I felt we had sto out right is why I said um I can't believe I'm suggesting we hold off until we hear from con next meeting so would would someone like to make a motion to wrap wrap sort of wrap that up if you will sorry just before that a quick question I'm assuming we're making recording voluntary right because um I don't know if we're going to be ending up talking to any anybody in the union on the town side that might have a problem with being recorded um sorry just dealing with uh Federal unions and people not wanting to be recorded yeah absolutely I it's a two-party consent state so we wouldn't yeah okay I just don't want people to think that we're not going to talk to them because we you know whatever so that's okay no obviously I think it's appropriate to say we would ask are you okay with this being recorded if not are you okay with this being transcribed if not still proceed with the interview take notes um right right okay at that and if they wanted to be more private that I feel like that's that's perfectly acceptable especially given um sort of the sensitivities around public sector work and unions and so on and so forth um so does someone want to make a motion to wrap up our agreement on this what kind of motion are you looking for yeah looking for something that would sort of basically say like Hey we're make a motion hey what don't you make it what don't you make it Julian make the motion I'll make motion okay sure sure I just don't want to be the only one making motion um but I'll make the motion that we hold off that we wait on meeting with elected officials until the Colin Center has a chance to review Bernie's uh Bernie's questions just in general until we get some advice from on conducting interviews because last want is to have them focus on these are they're gonna they're not gonna have a problem with these questions I know could I amend your motion make an amendment to your motion that it' be we hold off I know it was awesome what you did you saved us Julian that we hold off on scheduling the interviews until we have advice from the Colin Center yes thank you that sounds better um I'll second Meg's motion because that why ask somebody else to make it um when I can't think I ask someone else to do thinking sorry no that's perfectly okay um second oh you seconded it right I seconded it already um so I'll start with myself I'm an I uh Bernie Hi Marcus I Andy hi Ken I Erica hi and Rafael I okay approved it's obvious I'm an i because I made the motion y sorry Meg yep hi no approv unanimously um so we'll move on to committee vacancy um so Dan has resigned he does not have to take the minute so Athena will do that uh for him um so thank you Athena for doing that and the Town Council has the governance organization and legislation committee which I believe is getting staffed at their next meeting they didn't do it this time uh but at their next meeting they're going to staff that and elect a chair and then one of that uh group's first priorities will be uh getting us a new member Athena I'm unclear if they will be working on getting us a new member from the original pool this committee was working with um and selecting like one of the three people who didn't get approved or if they will be uh soliciting applications fresh um do you have any idea about that or is that will that be their choice yes I think I think I sent the maybe I didn't send the policy on making recommendations for appointments to multiple member bodies to you but there the council has a policy for how this whole process works they do consider um Community activity forms that have been submitted in the last two years so they'll reach out to the applicants from the first pool but they do need to post the they can see notice um and open it open it up to new applicants for I think 14 days before they can consider um uh holding interviews and making a recommendation and and both so wonderful great does anyone have any questions about that process uh Erica and then Meg yeah um I had a question about um the requirement that the committee have nine members and is that um is that that uh is there I don't know of any is there a contingency plan other than being replaced can the committee continue to operate with eight members may I answer that yeah I youa go right ahead yes the committee can continue to operate as long as you have a quorum you can continue um so it's not uncommon for a Contin committee to to continue meeting with less than a quorum um so you can don't don't so no concern with with eight members um the governance organization and legislation committee did suggest to the council a smaller number of members for this committee and the council said no we want nine so um I don't think that's a suggestion that we'll go very far at this point the suggestion to have fewer members to reduce the number of members um and eight would not be wouldn't be an appropriate number anyhow because it's an even number so that the number of committee members is still 9 the Quorum is still five um and you can continue your work with as long as you have five you can continue your work so we can continue meeting as long as we have a quorum of five members and that process will sort of go through a long slot alongside us if you will Meg I had the same question Erica had great awesome um and then just a little bit of a recap I think Dan's most frustration was at last meeting um which I wasn't at so I don't want to speak too much for him but I would encourage you to reach out to him to ask why he resigned his email his phone is open um I believe everybody has his email so if you're curious please email him he said that he would respond um and that uh the last meeting was especially frustrating for him um is what he seem to express to me um but that his Lin's always open and he would explain if folks emailed him so any questions about that or his rationale or anything like that no okay um so I will move on to community organization and town staff Outreach plan Bernie you had a document on this um that listed some organizations and uh Community groups as well as um some Town leadership staff uh look at the document that I had and again would have been in the the packet for the 60 uh was department heads okay and again you know if we're gonna um here I go um you know stepping on my own t um if we're to bring the con Center in and they're gonna look at what we're asking the counselors and school committee members like we should let them um make SU suggestions around how we contact and get opinions from department heads of other staff okay great I'm I'll the other challenge is is that we need to think about and again we can take it up with them is uh you know we have a huge number of committees most of those committees are appointed by the town manager um and you know so that that may be a question of of how much does the council really want to get into the committee appointment business or or approval method but that you know we can dive into the charter and see what um see what it says in in detail and take that up as well in the near future yeah I mean a few thoughts I had on that was just first off that yes I think we do want to speak with Town department heads I don't think it's just Town department heads there's Town boards town committees and like regular Town staff I think that uh just having us meet with department heads I'd like us to meet with whether it be obviously we can't meet with everyone but committee chairs Union Representatives um from different departments Etc to sort of get get the opinions and uh and thoughts of sort of a broader group of people than just the department head so I think having the Colin Center look at that will be important Andy yeah I think um when when we get to questions of scale it then it's like what are the strategies for reaching out to all these people how many interviews can we do and do we end up identifying all all those people not just department heads but other types of staff and and so on and then you know at some level we'll probably end up sending out a questionnaire or something and they can they can respond to it or something because I I just don't know that we'll be able to interview everybody that we would make put on a list I would almost suggest having an anonymous questionnaire for all Town staff and all board and committee members that folks can fill out and then in addition to that interviewing um some of the major department heads along with some of the major board and committee chairs and some of the Union Representatives or Union presidents um of the different town groups that's or town departments that's what I would recommend sort of what I would what I would lean to seems reasonable but yeah yeah I'm hopeful that that again we're depending on the Colin Center a lot but I I would think they their strategy for drilling down into town staff and and uh committees and things would be helpful yeah um I also think it's good that there would be like somewhat of a buffer there between us and the um and the different staff and people we talk to just in case folks are concerned about confidentiality or that sort of thing Bernie yeah just to go back to the thing that Annie mentioned about scale um there are eight of us maybe nine once again at some point in time and we're it so um we we have to figure out how we can best uh reach folks and uh in different groups of folks and and do that in a in a time efficient manner um because last time I looked we all have lives and probably want to do something more than talk to people about the charter uh so so we have to we have to take into account the the the degree of reach and how can we effectively do this which is not to write off any group but to find ways that would would uh would would would get us an input uh at a with a reasonable amount of time and effort Erica yeah um I think Bernie you had compiled that original list that you referred to uh in the previous meeting of a sort of first pass kind of list on Town staff and so on and with additions right if that list becomes what we feel is more or less complete it may be something like we have to decide on what we would consider a quorum what we would consider a sort of fair enough representation of that cohort for a final report an aim for that if there's 50 people on the list it's unlikely we'll be able to get to all of them given everything you just said Bernie I would agree um and but that we agree that if we get 20 uh or some percentage that we all agree is a fair enough representation that we can go about we can do the Outreach and then go about it with some some with some Metric that we agree on is a is a good representation even if we can't get all of them yeah and I I think the um there are probably some department heads that are more involved with the council and the charter then others uh our finance officer comes to mind immediately as it does our DPW director because the council is The Keeper of the public way so there are some people that are more impacted by the operation of the charter than others but we may want to filter on that as well but this is in more for the mill more for thought thank you I think you're toet yeah I would also just say that that I think it's important to sort of like rather than have a list of 50 people and make it so expansive we can't do it it's going to be important that we can maybe develop a list of I don't know 15 people but it's a diversity of different people if we hear from just all department heads or just all board and committee chairs it's sort of an echo chamber of a certain uh perspective so I think it would be good if we had like I don't know five department heads uh five board and committee chairs and five Town staff Representatives Etc to sort of balance it out and get a diversity of viewpoints across the uh range of civil servants that we have Meg um I wonder if it makes sense to interview two or three at once carefully selected so there's some back and forth and maybe developing ideas listening to each other I don't know it would not just to make it it would make it more efficient but also might trigger deeper exchange than just answering questions that we ask I wouldn't be opposed to that I think that's a good idea Andy um yeah I think this is sort of where we're getting into the you know what's the strategy for outreach because there's the Bernie Bernie made this initial list just to to get us started with some general stuff from people who' have been deeply involved with the with the the government and then you know we'll have we'll we'll have a variety of things that I think the Outreach subcommittee has probably been talking about what you know the sort of waves of information collection that that would happen so um you know I think having a a comprehensive strategy of you know how do we use interviews how do we use focus groups how do we use surveys you know how do we use forums you know and and there's probably you know a variety of ways that we can reach people um and and it might be that we reach them so they can fill out a survey we can reach everybody to fill out a survey they might not do it but you know but and then we can have interviews with a certain number of people based on our capacity so I think that I I assume that the Outreach U subcommittee has been thinking about that and I assume that we'll hear some from the um the col thater as well about how to structure that yep absolutely um all right so thank you questions comments on this nope um okay so I will bring us to uh Outreach subcommittee have you guys had your meeting recently um either Erica or uh Rafael or Meg mind to give an update on your meeting and uh any sort of proposals for community outreach uh what you guys did with the survey anything along those lines uh just give us an update from your meeting and folks can ask questions so we met on um January 23rd and we had a couple of agenda items one of which we've touched on uh which is our response and recommendations to the um to the interview protocols that I brought up earlier the sort of emphasis on standardization the emphasis on um what we saw is the the kind of value of transcription so we already talked about that um the other thing that we covered is um Meg's piece of work which is developing a list of potential venues and sort of key people and facilities and organizations in the in the area to do our initial wave of Outreach too so once we have our materials prepared our survey prepared this is for the public piece not for the officials and town staff piece um where would we send it and Meg's been working on that list and is solicited from all of you additional names or ideas and I think has a list for us to to look at or review in the packet um so we can talk about that and the other the third piece of work that we took on was to uh review the idea of the survey and the draft uh survey that was on the table um that was sort of delegated for the subcommittee to look at last time and so we took a close look at it we spent time looking at the individual questions that were in the survey um and tried a method of like responding to them as whether they should be whether we should whether we should keep them whether we should ask them in a different way whether they should be something like uh something other than a yes or no question should they be open-ended should they be a Liker scale that kind of thing and also uh whether they should be revised in some way um I won't belabor and go through the whole set of questions again except to give you the sort of overall assessment at the end of that process is that what we felt like was that the survey needs some organization and some um some attention to the difference between General and Broad uh questions and specific uh sort of questions that address categories in the actual uh Charter and subtopic um that's the headline and one of the things that we identified as a a sort of recurring uh challenge in developing questions when we gave ourselves the challenge even in the conversation of like how would you revise this if you were going to revise this question when it hits a specific topic when a question is drafted to hit a specific Topic in the charter it's very challenging to not make it a leading question in some way or another it's very difficult to ask a question question that is like well what do you think about whether the lights should be red or green you know um it's difficult to ask it in such a way that is not leading and it's not uh cherry-picking it whatever it is out of this enormous bucket of issues that the charter addresses because by you whatever thing you you can't ask all of it and by picking the thing you've not picked 99 other things um and so there's a sort of there's a there's a kind of um uh potentially confirmation bias right by setting up a question that says do you feel like this is an important issue well sure I think it's an important issue that doesn't mean I think it's an important issue over and above the 99 other issues so where we landed is that this is a place where we might also need consultation that developing a survey is a is a um is a serious uh skill that the consultation with the Colin Center might spill over and kind of advise on this process as well um and um I also think I would I would this is maybe more my one of my conclusions from our discussion rather than representing the whole group but I was thinking a lot about the Cascade or the flow from general questions about how the how the form of government is functioning how well is it functioning in your life type of questions how well is it serving your needs as a citizen of the Town how well do the different constituencies of the government work with each other how well do they answer uh each other's needs how timely are they how whatever whatever adjectives we want to put on that there a sort of General functioning of government kind of question and then there are the questions that go to specificity that go to specific things named in the charter described in the charter [Music] um that are almost more almost like quantitative they're spe they're really specifically outlined um and there's a there's a there's a flow required from that and there's also the possibility that we might need to [Music] um think about the idea of having two separate surveys and they might be a part A and A Part B right but they might be anyone can answer those General functioning of government kind of questions anyone who lives in this town can step up and opine on such a thing um there are also the questions about specificity which people may or may not want feel inclined to want to have the expertise to have have feel like they want to take the time to answer questions about and I think we want to consider whether or not we want to make those exclusive of one another in other words if I have time to do my part a survey but I don't I can't get into Part B is part A still valuable to the Charter Review Committee and to the town and everything else so those are just some of the questions that we um wrestled with and the things that I've been thinking about in the subsequent week but that's just a kind of a quick outline and we should leave time for Meg to go over the materials that she prepared on that list Andy yeah I think that's a the the the notes of the Cascade and the and the two different types of survey questions is important and um it might be that we have the general function of government questions that anybody can answer you know how well is this working what's the you know what are the pain points for you or what do you see as needing Improvement and then in terms of just how things work and then you know through various means we come up with some suggest some you know potential proposals and then we ask people what they think of those so they're responding to something specific and tangible I mean and even that might be fairly technical but I mean at least it thinking of those in two as two separate and you know um exercises I think is important I agree and I would say that it it makes sense to have the Colin Center look at and provide us some advice regarding uh public input survey um and public Outreach survey I think that they could help in sort of the general government questions I think were pretty good and then you had some of these questions where um where I chose what we would ask a question on what might not be asked question on and they might be able to more objectively choose how to ask those questions what scales to use Etc in a way that could be helpful um Meg um I think it's important to not only ask questions that are literally about the charter because people don't necessarily know what it is and it can be intimidating but but how it's how it's being interpreted or things you know what the the practice uh so it might be things like uh do you feel that your district meetings do you know about them are they useful how might they be I'm not I'm pulling that out of the blue but things that are you know should people who uh put in their names to be on a committee be public information unless they decide they don't want their name revealed um that's a topic that has come up when people approach me and give so I think it doesn't have to be literally about the charter there's a lot we can change if we want to or recommend changing in in terms of practice I would also just say we want questions that are in the public sphere enough that they will develop interest in the survey like we want people to be interested enough in the survey to say oh I cared about this or I had a problem with that um and develop questions that are not so obtuse that they aren't getting to the heart of things the public uh has paid attention to Andy yeah that was one of the things that the Collins folks mentioned that that they have the the survey questions bank that they that that they've you know that they've tested questions and they've used them in the past to to specifically get public input so I think that could be a huge benefit you're muted juli y Rafael no I was just gonna comment again about the bank of questions that might exist I think we ended our meeting with just we need some support with just survey creation and we also talked about some other materials I don't know if the visual sort of sort of the things we could provide uh in terms of a graphic I don't know if I'm recalling correctly yeah we did thank you rapael yes we did cut we did talk about the um the need for when we when we have our survey ready to distribute promote publicize um how to create some visual branding and visual sort of materials to accompany um any promotion that we do so something is recogn able we did we did um we did talk about reaching out for that support Ken um I I'm one of those weird people that love surveys I love taking them because I know that they're helpful to to whatever organization is asking my opinion um so I take a lot of them um and a lot of them come through work through UMass um I've never seen a survey as strictly just questions um if they're asking me to my opinion on something um there's often like a little bit of an aid there a little bit of a you know a link or something to say you know before you you you may want to look at the the charter or or visit our website you know the charter review website that that we shouldn't Overlook that idea of kind of holding their hand a little bit and saying this is where the stuff is yeah along with a survey and not just have straight straight um questions just an idea yeah absolutely other thoughts on the survey public survey ra for me it would just be good to hear from the Colin Center in doing this work worked what hasn't here are some resources for you all to use yeah absolutely I agree Marcus oh yeah uh actually took a course on how to create a survey once I have a book somewhere I was just trying to look for it I have no clue but yeah I think going with the bank of some it's somewhere over there and I have no by by the sunset yeah yeah um and uh I think yeah I think going with a Collins on tried and tested questions is a great way of doing it because I mean even the slightest Nuance can get you in trouble on these things and you've got to be supremely careful so yeah is that a photo years ago sorry I think for for me yeah use surveys develop them but I think what matters most to me is these folks have done this work with this process that's crucially important y yeah absolutely Meg do you want to screen share um your Outreach I uh I'm not sure it's worth taking time of our committee I'm sort of thinking we're going through the agenda and some people thought we were meeting at 6 might be good to end at 8 but um uh what I'd like to I'll send it to I'll email I didn't wasn't expecting to do that I um what would be helpful to know so sorry go ahead um I can I can sh okay but good thank you rafhael um what um what we're trying to identify this is the broader Outreach to the public is as Erica said entities neighborhood lists uh standard uh Outreach mechanisms like the Indie and the uh current Amis current and the Jones library and what we need is to get the more information about how exactly you get who's the gatekeeper for these different things and um it's a heck of a lot of work if I just do that by myself so I'm wondering if everybody who would be willing to take five uh places and I would so not just you know for example ammer Chamber of Commerce I know it's Arthur H Haskins we don't need that one but the rotary or or um different these different lists to find out exactly who's the gatekeeper so that we can when we have something to send out we can do it very quickly that's my first question and you can do I mean as it's being scanned through here you be I'd be thrilled if somebody has things to add but I can't I was amazed look at all these apartments and I forgot to put on Olympia Ville oh no it's there Olympia um this is amazing and do we our committee subcommittee is discussing whether how much Outreach to the apartments given that they're there's a lot of variety some of them most mostly students and some of them are not uh so I'm curi I don't think it's worth our time to go through this list one by one uh but you see there with ammer Ford it's Katherine appy and there's her contact so we would say you know I might we would send to say could you send this to your post this on your website or send it to your list Erica um thank you Meg it's it's a lot of work and I hope that I think that your approach may be to um have people take on three four five of these and and add to it is great I think um uh I wish we could have a collective document but I realize that's a that's an open meeting problem um but you can send it send it to me yeah absolutely I just wanted my my raise my hand because I wanted to add to the what you raised about uh we had a conversation in the subcommittee about the apartments but specifically about students and including students in the uh in our Outreach efforts and I just wanted to confirm that the conclusion that we came to is yes that we are you know uh we are inclusive of the student population in our in our efforts and in how we're thinking about designing U designing questions and designing our approach so you'll see that updated list that was just screened through in which I'll send everybody includes the Collegian and I need to find out so then we need to that's an example if if I mean if you all took five that would still leave most of them for me to do but uh how do you get who's who's what's how do you contact the Collegian I mean I could do it but each one will take three or four minutes five minutes or 20 minutes so um we did decide we want to that whether an apartment complex has mostly students or not it'd be interesting for them to we decided to not screen against students use that as a negative thing I would I would also just say that the apartments some of the apartments are mostly students but some of the apartments are mostly families and residents so I think that it's important to go after all of the apartments but especially those with the families and full-time residents because not only do they some of the more diverse communities with ammer within ammer so I think that going after those areas is important and um and we shouldn't just assume that because their apartment complexes only students live there right that's what we our committee was unanimous and but it's more you know it's one thing to say okay we'll send it to for example Olympia Place how it's administrative thing but who's who's the contact there so you if anybody here is willing to take say five let me know and I'll pick out or you could pick five out yourself and let me know and uh I'll do the rest I had a couple of other questions but some Andy shall I I'm not facilitating I see two questions and then I had a couple of things to to ask you yeah Andy go go right ahead yeah I mean I think this is a great um list and a great start and I I don't think it's necessarily um you know we're under a time crunch to get it to get it right because I think these these folks are likely to be recipients of the of a survey right I mean it's or or if we're some cases we may have focus groups or or forums or something but I think those will be down the line way so we have time get the contact information but just to get the full scope of of you know venues for outreach I think is is great to get it now and I'd certainly be happy to help you know find the contact people as we go along but um I don't think we're under a time crunch to do that I'm happy to help to me right Bernie thank you Ken yeah I was just going to suggest that trying to screen out students is a um impossible if you look at data um the town turns over every couple of years uh you know so so half of our housing is folks who are Transit so we're not gonna it would be absolute waste of time to screen out students plus students do live here and they do have uh a they do have a role to play one um thought that just crossed my mind looking at this list as a way to get the word out is that uh the town is allowed to include uh a page or flyer with the tax bills yeah and good idea uh you know if you want to make sure you're uh you're you're you're hitting the PO population that's you know has skin in the game um putting a simple notice in with the tax bill that says you know this is what we're doing the Char review here's where you go to do it here's where you go to check things out or have a QR code or something in there um would would be uh pretty effective Marcus oh yeah sorry um what was I gonna say oh yes yeah I kind of agree with Bernie there um we really need you know students are people too they use our roads they use our services they use everything that we do so yeah just that's I wouldn't worry about one or the other let's just go for it so sounds like we all agree Rafael yeah for folks to know we we agreed like we want students um but I think what was in play as well was trying to get some other venues that folks here might know to add to the list yeah so other spaces that we could have as points of contact yeah I agree I would just say some smaller organizations um that I can think of off the top of my head uh I'm thinking of like uh Community organizations uh mothers out front um oh Sunrise I was a part of sunrise for a number of years I think that's on isn't sunrise on there I don't think so oh maybe it was on what the okay good I have the contacts for all those people who now lead it um I'm thinking uh the PCA Progressive Coalition I know they were that's that's on the list um I'm thinking like uh so in essence Julian we were trying to come up with a process where folks could review the list yeah right one or one that just come to mind I know I sent you a real brief response to email but you know stos good idea yeah how could I forget that so I think it's a better use of our time rather than go over right now is for everybody to commit to taking 10 minutes to look at the list and I'll send it again with these additions on it and think so there is this a good time for me to ask my three qu to reinforce my three questions one is look at the list and add to it uh if everybody who's could AG let me know of say five that you're willing to research in order to so that we know uh what's who's the gatekeep you know gatekeeper like the Amis college student newspaper there's it's pretty straightforward it just takes some time to do it that would be wonderful the third thing was um this is a little different kind of a question I was asked by the league someone a friend of mine on in the League of Women Voters are doing their newsletter could she post something about the charter review and I my instinct was I'm very U eager to sometimes I jump the gun a little so I have a a warning that says don't jump the gun mag uh she said is there something I could put in the league newsletter and immediately I thought sure the statement we all agreed on but I didn't know if I could actually do that so it' be great to know if somebody says do you have something that we can just send them that since we've agreed on it we word smithed it uh rather than if if they're eager I don't know but I that's a question I have if everybody could if you could weigh in on that I don't know if they'll ask me again but you know and she needed to have it by tomorrow it was the day she asked me could I get it to her by tomorrow which I couldn't um without asking somebody and I thought this isn't worth everybody's time for me to email and say can I send this blah blah blah anyway technically I am the the news person the chair is the like talks to the news or whatever um technically so if there's something that comes up like that Meg you can email me um and if it's it's minor like that I I can handle it or give you approval great is that okay with everybody I mean I think it we've already approved that and that's it's part of our read so I think anybody who wants to print it is it's fair game I think I would agree with that anybody disagree because I don't have to even call Julian I could just you could just yeah we all worked on it okay great thank you very much you know if we can create this list with a contact for each of the apartment complexes and you know 15 or 20 neighborhood email lists man that's gold I completely agree I think oh one neighborhood I didn't see on their uh Orchard Valley that's a good place to add um I think they have the I sent you all this info and an email Meg so you can you can look at it there I thought I saw it okay yeah but great Ken um I I think I heard Meg say two different ways to to divvy up the the different organizations one was that she made just deviate up for us or that we pick our own I would strongly suggest that Meg you just deviate up to us you give five and we won't we don't I don't I mean we shouldn't play favorites or anything that stuff we just it's just a phone call or an email please just assign us okay is that okay with everybody I agree yeah I think that's most appropriate that way people aren't sort of and choosing and competing say no I want the progressive network no I want exactly forward I know I know those two I know who um yeah exactly it's not yeah just ass sign randomly um thank you and then I looked here Outreach subcommittee update and then survey so on the future agenda planning does anybody have other questions about the Outreach stuff no just um future agenda planning other things for me to put on the agenda at our next meeting besides having the Colin Center come and attend I I would suggest um taking a look at the charge and the required reports okay and having a you know laying out those required reports maybe creating some rough time frames or some rough topics for each of the reports so we frame that up a little bit and then at some point I'm sure the council's gonna want to know what we're up to and we could calendar saying well this is what we're planning on doing and you notice that it's uh past April 1 uh so please you know extend us right right Erica uh I have a question I don't know if it's an agenda item or not um we had talked about this idea of having um design support for visual branding on future materials and that sort of thing takes time to develop so I want to move on it sooner rather than later and so my question is primar first for Athena um about whether the um Communications office can support us in that way or if we should look outside um I can check Sam Samantha gfin our Communications manager said she um she has time to attend a meeting and if you'd like her to attend an Outreach meeting since you'll be focused on that I can invite her I don't know the date of your next meeting okay February 13th that's the next date of the of the whole committee yeah I know the committee schedule but I don't have a schedule for the um the Outreach subcommittee we meet every every other week we're meeting alternate alternate Thursdays so far no our Thursdays are book forever and ever they're um at 6 or 6:30 6:30 I think it's 6:30 so we can have dinner um I will ask Samantha if she can attend next th Thursday and um and help with some of that support and then for the full committee um the committee had asked uh for KP law to come and do a presentation for them or give some lay some the lay of the land a little bit um obviously they couldn't make it tonight um and then next meeting you're having the Callin Center so I asked if they could come um to the meeting after that and I just heard back that they can so for the 27th yeah we we may want to keep in mind that um KP law is the KP law represents the town and so as we get into discussions with the Collins Center and the Collins Center suggesting changes and the like we're also going to want to have KP law look over their shoulder uh because if push comes to shove it's KP law who's gonna have to defend us and they're they're very very skillful off fir uh some really good people that they employ and uh and their own retainer so we should we should see if we could take advantage of it as well I I would just say that I think KP law represents the town and KP law represents the town if that makes any sense as in it's it's good for us because anything we need to defend would be defended through KP law it also means that KP law represents the interests of the town not necessarily the interests of what our committee might want to do or not want to do if that makes sense yeah it's a good way of putting it okay um raise my um also for the agenda next time we the Outreach subcommittee might have a report I don't know if we'll get to the make a calendar but we probably you're muted whoops Outreach subcommittee survey future agenda planning topics not anticipated by the chair any topics folks other stuff to put on the agenda no all right I'll make my last motion of the night to adjourn wait I have my thing wasn't working um I have something wasn't on the agenda um we don't have to discuss this but I'm just sometime I'd be interested um to I don't know how we want to share what we each would our own I think it's great that we haven't it seems that everyone on this committee is really committed to listening and to what other people think and I'm just wondering if at some point we should put on the table what we would recommend uh or maybe not but if it's if not that's okay with me uh and we should let anybody who wants to be there's some people who've lobbied to be to have to be advocated for to get on this committee because they have opinions about things and uh maybe a better way to express your what you think should change about town government is not to be on the committee and instead to be uh creative and smart about how you raise your concerns and things you'd like to be different I'm just it's it's something that I've molded over I actually don't have any big huge things that I'm hoping happen I have a few little things here and there but I was just curious if we ever put those things on the table of what by the way here's what I'm bringing to this I appreciate very much that that's not how anybody is leading which is wonderful uh really I'm really impressed because I think our the the cleanly of our process if that's the right term is extremely important and I'm really pleased that we've all seem to be committed to listening to other people over uh Andy yeah I think um listening is what we do um for most of the upfront and then and then at some point we're going to have to apply judgment and that's where maybe we bring some of our I mean maybe as part of the listening we can maybe the tail end of the listening we say well here's here's what I'd like to throw into the mix but then we'll have to as a committee then decide you know so I think there'll be time to do that I just think it'll be backloaded rather than front loaded I agree I think we need to have a a neutral face to the public when we do Outreach to an extent um Rafael and I'm gonna follow that and say I hear you Meg but in terms of like the work that I see us doing it's more about getting insights from all community members we could fill out those things too but I think if you lean into what we would want it's just it's tricky in terms of like our analysis of what comes in I think we set ourselves up if we do that I actually agree as you know I agree with you I'm just curious sorry wasn't called on called out his turn sorry Excuse excuse me sorry jul quick quick question before Athena can I get the recording of this I'm taking the and who does it go to it goes to you Julian the minutes the minutes go to me and aena okay and early next week's fine yeah that's fine okay all right thanks um Marcus oh yeah sorry uh I was just going to add yeah I think the last thing we want to do is star and add to our our opinions into the mix because that's just going to bias the pool of whatever we approach you know if we are open if we're as as open as we want as we need to be then you know we need to be take a neutral opinion of everything and be welcoming of all opinions and then we can get into it yeah yeah I think there's there's a time and a place for us to add our opinions into the mix our judgment on recommendations and removing language from the charter adding language to the Charter or amending stuff in the charter I just don't think that's right now because we don't want to sort of create bias in our Outreach um or sort of randomly have like confirmation bias if you will Meg yeah I I hope it was clear that I agree with that um okay and since we're going to get a new member and others may be being lobbied about people who should be appointed we should clarify this is if you want to have your opinion uh communic at it might be better not to be on the committee instead to put your energy into giving input I don't know if other people have been encouraged to nominate people to Pro to promote people um one last Quick comment from me um the there was an issue raised earlier about an extension so I just it doesn't have to be at your next agenda but I just wanted to remind you to put a pin in that so that the committee can ask for that extension before it gets too late and the council agendas tend to get really full um in the spring with the budget and so forth absolutely thank you I'll probably put that on the agenda for the next meeting great other questions comments topics not anticipated before we adjourn the none I move to adjourn second second second um myself I'm an i Andy hi Rafael Hi Marcus hi Erica hi Ken hi Meg hi and Bernie hi all right have a great night everybody thank you atha thank you thank you Athena thank you yeah