President Hani, we are recording. Please begin when you're ready. Thank you. Good evening. Seeing a presence of a quorum, I am calling the 6:30 special meeting of the town council to order. of
the March 30th, 2026 special meeting of the town council to order at 6:30 p.m. Please be advised that this meeting is being held in person and that remote access option for members of the public is provided as a courtesy only. In the
event of technology issues with the remote connection, the meeting will continue in person as scheduled as long as there is a quorum of the council present in hotel room or through technological means. Chapter two of the acts of 2025 extended through June 30th, 2027, the ability of public bodies to
meet without a quorum of the council physically present in a meeting location, although a quorum of the council is present in the town room. This meeting is being recorded and is accessible in real time by Zoom, by phone, and as a live broadcast on Ammeris Media Channel 9 and at
ammerismedia.org. At this time, I will call upon each counselor by the name they have indicated that they would like to be addressed. This will indicate that we can hear you and you can hear us. Councelor Brevik, >> yes. >> Councelor Kennel Martin, >> yes.
>> Andy Churchill, >> yes. >> Anna Delgen Goofier, >> yes. >> Lyn Greimer, >> present. >> Mandy Johan is present. Councelor Lord, >> present. >> Sam Mloud, >> present. >> Pam Rooney, >> here. >> Councelor Ryan, >> present. >> Kathy Shane,
>> here. >> Jennifer Tub here. and councelor Walker um is not here yet. If counselors have technological issues, please let the council clerk know or call a point of personal privilege. In
addition to the special public comment period for DPW employees, there will be one general public comment period. If you are in the town room, please sign up with the council clerk to make public comment. or if you are a DPW employee and want to make comment, please sign up
with the town clerk. If you are attending remotely at the right time, I will ask you to raise your hand in the Zoom application. When we reach those two times, we are going to move one announcement before we move on on our agenda. The executive session that was listed on the
agenda, it will not be held tonight. Um we are removing that from the agenda. We will move on in the agenda to the special public comment period. This is a special public
comment period to hear from DPW workers, Department of Public Works employees about the plethora of issues concerning plethora of concerning issues they are facing. This is at the request um the town council meet special meeting was called pursuant to charter section 2.6D3
63. And this is one of the items they requested on this agenda. Um, any Department of Public Works employee wishing to make public comment during the special public comment period who is attending
remotely, please raise your hand in the Zoom application. If you are present in the town room and have not signed up with the council clerk, please do so now. Um, Alise Councelor Walker has arrived. I'll let her get seated before I I call on here. Um, you want to
>> here? >> Thank you. Department of Public Works employees are welcome to make public comments about the plethora of concerning issues they are facing at during this special public comment period. The council will not engage in a dialogue or comment on a
matter raised during the special public comment period. Public comments are not reflective of the opinions of the town council. The First Amendment broadly protects individuals rights to address the government, to speak, and to express themselves, including their right to say hateful and offensive things. I'm
generally unable to shut those commenters down under the First Amendment to the US Constitution unless their level of speech falls within an exception articulated by the courts, such as fighting words, true threats to a particular individual, harassment of a particular individual, or incitement of
imminent lawless activity. If a question exists as to whether a particular speaker is engaging in unprotected speech, I must defer to the principle of freedom of speech. Um, Athena, there are no hands at this time
raised on Zoom of DPW employees um who wish to make public comment. How many people have signed up? There are five DPW employees in the town room that has signed up for public comment. So um there each public commenter during this
special public comment period will have three minutes to make their comment. Um Athena >> Andrew Brace >> Andrew please come on up unmute them. Make sure the mic is working and state your name
and make your comment. >> Is the light on? Yeah. >> Is that where Okay, >> there we go. >> All right. Um, hi, my name is Andrew Brace. I'm the president of the Amoris DPW Associations and the chief operator
at the wastewater treatment plant. My division is responsible for the sewage treatment plant, which treats approximately 4 million gallons of sewage a day. We operate and maintain 22 pump stations around town and are responsible for 123 miles of sewer pipes, some dating back to the early 1900s.
We operate as a public utility with staffing required 365 days a year, including weekends and holidays and on call coverage every day for after hours emergencies. I'm on call right now, so if I get a call, I need to leave this room and go respond. Currently, only three of us have the
required race license to cover the plant. So that means between the three of us, we have to split the 365 day a year coverage. For the past several years, we have had near constant numerous vacancies. We always hire people with no experience or certifications and train them and watch them leave for more money and they often
go to work at a less complex system. The training placed an extreme demand on the current staff here at the time. At Wastewater, we have lost 26 staff in the last 10 years and that's including four retirements. There have been long-standing issues with low p wages, understaffing, high turnover, and low
retention. And they are not isolated to the wastewater division and are seen across DPW. Um, I would like to provide some background and updates as to where we are with negotiations. We've had eight negotiating meetings, four mediation sessions, and three meetings this March
in which the town manager has been present. Uh, this Wednesday will mark nine months working under an expired contract. The last meeting on March 18th, I feel, was very productive and I acknowledge movement by the town. We re we received the town's finalized written
offer and wage charts on Tuesday, March 23rd last week, and we needed some time for us and our attorney to really review all the details. There are some issues and details we still need to iron out, but we have not had a chance to communicate these with the town yet and are hoping to do that very soon. Um,
there's a couple new things in there we really haven't seen before, so that took some time to like review and consider. Um, we feel we're very close to an agreement that will act as a stepping stone to addressing many long-standing issues with DPW, but more work will be need to be done in future contracts. Um,
I'd like to thank you all for having this special meeting. Um, it means a lot to us that you've all made time uh for us to have our voices heard tonight. Um, I hope part of what comes from this special meeting will be a starting point for the town to have a healthy and
properly functioning DPW, which consequently will be a great benefit to the residents and to the town. Thank you. >> Thank you for coming tonight, Andrew, and making your comment. Dina, >> um, I think the next name is Mike Perez. I'm sorry, I can't read the hand. Is it
Mike Perez? Okay, please come on up. Thanks, >> Mike. Please come on up. State your name and where you live and make your comment. Hello, my name is Michael Perez. I'm one of the mechanics at the DFW. Um I'm I don't live in town, but I'm from where
um in regards to the condition of the buildings that what I wanted to touch on tonight. I don't know if anyone everyone knows all the things that are wrong with it. So, I'm going to try to quickly run down uh a list of some of the major things that I don't know if everyone's
aware of. Um starting with the collapsing roof. Um the we have a a collapsed roof over one of the active workspaces. It's it's over a staircase that we use um on on a daily basis when some of us need to go get uh parts from
a loft uh and supplies. Um the upper level offices and what we call the main bay. Um most of those offices cannot be used because the ceilings have collapsed and the walls have been torn out. You know, the drywall was at one time um torn out.
Uh the floors are spongy. Sometimes when it rains, if enough water gets in there, when you walk on the floor in some of those offices, floor is spongy and water just comes up between the floor tiles. Uh we have water that comes in through active light fixtures and what again
what we call the main bay, which is where we park most of our equipment. Um, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that active light fixtures and water is not a good it's not a good mixture. Uh, could be a fire hazard. Um, we still have mold
um in the main bay in different parts of the bay and in the mechanic shop where I work. um in the engineering department has water that comes in in multiple areas over some of their equipment and over some of their storage cabinets for
some of their files and various things that they use. Um in the mechanic shop where I work, we have water that comes in uh runs down an electrical conduit. Um and over time, we didn't realize it was happening. It
ruined a lot of uh some of our inventory for parts. We have a cabinet where we keep electric parts, the electronic stuff. Um it's ruined a lot of the uh the inventory that was in that cabinet. So that uh it's kind of a waste of money there. In our compressor room, the water
that comes in through what I mentioned before, the collapsing roof, uh makes its way through that staircase into our compressor room and leaks on some of our inventory that we have in there. And there's mold in there as well. There's mold in our part storage room on the
ceiling. The ventilation in the shop is poor. Um, there are times where we have two two fans. One of them is on its way out. One of them only works until it overheats, then it shuts down. Um, there are times where if we're welding or
we're using a plasma cutter or painting in that shop, the fumes get so poisonous in that shop. There's no ventilation, it doesn't go anywhere. There's times where we have to open the doors and just leave just to give ourselves a break from the fumes and to let the place air out. So there you're losing productivity from us
because we got to take time from our jobs just so we can take a breath outside. Uh there was flooding in the cellar of the DPW recently. Um, we have loose parts on the facade on the front of the building over the the
walkways, malfunctioning garage doors, and there's water leaks in the water department, ironically enough, as well when it rains hard enough. Um, I know 3 minutes wasn't enough time for me to spuel my whole thing here, but I just wanted to let you
guys know if anyone is willing, I'd be happy to give people tours if anybody wants to come down to the building. I don't care if it's on a weekend, if it's after work, it's early in the morning, I'll make the time to meet with you guys and take you for uh a tour and show you
all all the stuff I I listed off here, plus more if that helps, just to shed some light on it. >> Thank you so much for coming tonight, Michael. >> Thank you for your time, >> John Foster. Oh, thank you, John. Once you have a seat, please state your
name and where you live and then feel free to make your comment. >> Hi, my name is John Foster. I'm the drinking water treatment supervisor for the town of Ammerst. Over one year ago, I was elected by the union to participate in the current ongoing
negotiation process. We prepared diligently and worked hard to develop our argument. Created a handout full of supporting evidence. Printed printed current job postings from similar towns. I went into our first meeting and what I
discovered was that none of it mattered. None of that preparation mattered because the town's representatives had been told they are not authorized to go above their initial offer. We asked why when the budget hadn't been set yet and never received a clear answer.
What proceeded in the months after those first couple meetings has been union busting and small and stall tactics from the town. I also realized from the beginning that the town's consultant is there for one purpose and that's to do to do the
town's dirty work. is clear to me that the rest of the committee and the rest of the committee that the consultant fee and the money the town pays for their lawyers to fight our union is to shut us up and shut real negotiations down. My message to the town is to please stop
lawyering this self-run union to death. It feels like we're fighting some huge corporation with deep pockets and not the town of Ammerst. Let me be clear about the proposal that's now on the table. Ammeris roads are a disaster. It looks like MadMax on
the streets, right? Um the town's addressing that by putting money into them over 5 years. That doesn't make the roads better. It keeps them from getting worse. And that is what is on the table for the workers at
the DPW right now. The contract we are looking at now may keep some people from leaving, but it doesn't actually fix the problem. Speaking of problems, there's also the current DPW building. You just heard from Mike.
A Weston Samson company uh Wesson Samson report on the building in 2016 deemed it outdated, undersized, and functionally deficient. That was 10 years ago. About eight years ago, the town manager
held a DPW-wide meeting where he told us that the town was moving forward with plans and that we were getting a new building. He never spoke to us about it again. Is it it is our is it our responsibility to ask for a safe working environment?
Should that burden fall on us when the town is so clearly aware that the building is a health hazard? If we don't say if the union doesn't say something about the toxic mold report done in 2019, does it still exist
or does the Department of Labor Standards report exist or the Department of Public Health report? The problem is that we are all so desensitized to this treatment that we expect it and up until now we accepted it up until now because now is
the time to make meaningful change. Make the DPW a priority. The staff, building, and infrastructure show that Ammerst cares about equity and justice for people who work hard for this town. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you, John.
>> Patrick McNeel. >> Uh, could you repeat the name, Athena? >> Patrick McNeel. >> Thank you, Patrick. Please come on up and state your name where you live and make your comment. Hello, my name is PJ McNeel. I'm part of the next generation of the DPW. I'm a
mechanic at the Ace Ammerst Wastewater Treatment Plant. I'm also an Ammeris resident. I live on Sherman Lane. I spent my whole life in Ammerst and wanted to join the Ammerst DPW to give back to my community. This community has raised me and I enjoy
it very much. I'm here today because I see firsthand that our DPW looks after our infrastructure and that the DPW that we rely on so greatly is being left behind by the town of Ammerst. The DPW building has been
left to rot and crumble. Our roads are wasting away. Our water piping infrastructure is bursting at the seams. The second reason I've come here tonight is that I'm also 24. And though I am lucky enough to have two very loving
mothers that allow me to live with them, I am looking to move out soon. I've been crunching the numbers. And if things continue to go the way they are, I'm not sure if I'll be able to afford a house for myself or the ability to start a family in or anywhere near this town
that I enjoy so much. Please consider your DPW employees when you think of the future of this town. We keep the town running and those of us who are residents would love to raise children in this town. Thank you. >> Thank you PJ for coming tonight.
>> Alan Snow. >> Alan, please come up. Come on up. State your name where you live and make your comment. >> Hi, I'm Alan Snow. I live on Longtown Road. um lived in Ammeris for 38 years, raised my family here. Uh became a town
employee in uh 2011 um as division director of tree and grounds. Um I three minutes is enough time. So first of all, thank you everybody on the council for what you do as a citizen of Ammeris. I appreciate everything you do. Takes a lot of time and effort and
thought to do it. Very complicated community. Thank town manager and I want to thank town staff and town hall that make all of this possible um and many other things in town and I want to thank all my partners in DBW who do awesome work um that make everything we do
function as a division and um DBW we all help each other out. Um in my opinion in in 15 years of working for the town we have a maintenance issue. We do not fund maintenance in in tree and grounds. We have tried
for years to get funding to properly just maintain athletic fields, you know, or street trees. We put in requests for money and we generally are told we can't do that. Sometimes if there's a major incident, money will magically appear and it will get fixed. Um,
recently the town gave the school system $150,000 to maintain the new athletic fields for two years. We simply were asking for the $20,000 to do the exact same thing with town staff, not paying some contract or prevailing wage to do it. So why does
the money appear when a crisis happens? Um this goes on with all of our infrastructure, whether it's police department, banks, community center, DPW building. Um you are in control of the budgets. You make the decisions. The
money is there. It is a priority. DPW is not a priority. Staff's not a priority. What we accomplish is not a priority. You just gave money out of the road projects to the regional school to fix a fix a roof that is leaking and has been
leaking for quite a long time. So, I don't understand why we can't fund maintenance. Every person that approaches me on the street talks about the roads. You must be hearing this. That's just the roads.
Lots of infrastructure we maintain. Think about maintenance. It's not sexy. Other communities do it. Why aren't we doing it? We're like third or sixth in the state in general fund spending on DPW. Third or sixth from the bot.
We're up at the top in libraries. You probably read the article in that was online for a while indie article about spending priorities. Great article. So, let's try to fix it. I live here. You live here. We all drive on the same
roads. We all love the same clean drinking water. Um, let's see what we can do to fix it. Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Alan, for coming tonight. Are there any other names on the list? That is it. Thank you to the DPW employees for coming tonight. We are going to move
on to item number three on our agenda, which is general public comment. Anyone wishing to make general public comment who is attending remotely, please raise your hand in the Zoom application. If you are present in the town room and have not signed up with
the council clerk, ble please do so now. Residents are welcome to make public comments on matters within the jurisdiction of the town council. The council will not engage in a dialogue or comment on a on a matter raised during the general public comment period.
Public comments are not reflective of the opinions of the town council. Again, the first amendment broadly protects individuals rights to address the government, to speak, and to express themselves, including the right to say hateful and offensive things, I am generally unable to shut those commenters down under the first
amendment to the US Constitution. unless their level of speech falls within an exception articulated by the courts such as fighting words, true threats to a particular individual, harassment of a particular individual, or incitement of imminent lawless activity. If a question exists as to whether a particular
speaker is engaged in unprotected speech, I must defer to the principle of freedom of speech. There are there is one hand raised in the Zoom application of people who wish to make public comment. How many people in the town room have signed up? Two.
Each um commenter will have three minutes to make their public commenter. We're going to start with the town room. >> Michael Brown. Michael, please come on up. State your name and where you live and make your comment. >> Michael Brown, Station Road. Um spoke
here once before. um hoped to be speaking here without feeling embarrassed and disappointed, but here I am embarrassed and disappointed. And I don't understand it. I don't understand the relationship between this
group, this council, and our town manager. But to sit here and hear that the strategies that he's employing are stiff arming and bullying is what it sounds like to me. That represents me.
No, doesn't represent me. Shouldn't represent you. And if it does, you shouldn't be on this on this council. So, here we are. We're giving a raise that doesn't really address anything.
And we're asking these good people to endure. Endure while what? We stiff arm them. Terrible. The building. The building for me as a resident is a
liability. What are we waiting for? For them to sue us? for someone to get hurt, get sick, then what? This is known known for years. You think you're going to avoid liability? uh you should talk to your town council
because there's absolutely liability in that building and you are responsible for making decisions about when that gets repaired and you are furthering our potential exposure. We don't have the money for that and we
shouldn't be treating them this way. I guess I'll be back. Thank you. >> Thank you for coming tonight, Michael. Maria Copeki. Uh, please unmute yourself, state your name and where you live, and make your comment.
>> Thank you. Maria Capiki, South Ammerst. I'm not going to take the whole three minutes because I am just here to support the DPW, the DPW workers, and everything that they are doing. I want to thank the four counselors who have
made this meeting happen despite it being ridiculously um difficult to get done. Um listen to the DPW. Please, please stop messing around with them.
give them the working conditions and the support that they need to make our lives healthy. Please stop having weird priorities when your priority should be the people
who make this town safe for us. Thank you. >> Thank you for coming tonight. Maria Vincent Okconor. Vincent, please come on up. State your name and where you live and make your comment. like to start off by saying I heard much
of what I heard tonight from the DPW not about the pay the pay but about the building 8 to nine years ago in town meeting it was actually described as being OSHA violations. Now, I think I'll have to confess I
didn't think it was my job to file OSHA complaints about a town building that I didn't know the people who worked in it. But I do feel some shame that I just didn't do it. And quite frankly, um, what has gone on in the last nine
years where a building that should have been the first priority has ended up being the third or fourth priority because of that building over there, which everyone knows should not have been the first priority. Second, you have the written version of
my comments from last Monday. And I think when I read the legalisms of the manager's ex quote executive work, what I realize is that it doesn't
involve personal cow cowardice on behalf of the manager. I think it betrays a lack of empathy and concern for the people who might be affected. It is the very same
situation that um that Lincoln found unacceptable at the beginning of the Civil War. He couldn't find someone who wanted to go into battle because quite frankly they
did not share his beliefs. Quite frankly, the manager does not really believe that we should care about the people who are being pursued by ICE. That's what his his order is about.
They're dispensable. We can live without them. Um and so forth. That's and and I think as Lincoln found out, the only way that you can get leadership that leads people into battle
against what is what needs to be done is to find new leadership. >> Thank you for coming tonight, Vincent. >> Jerry Levitzky. >> Jerry, please come on up, state your name,
where you live, and make your comment. Good evening everybody. My name is Jerry Leinsky. I live at 21 Hex Street, apartment 20. Um, so much has been said. I've lived in Emmer since 1979.
Uh, I'm a longtime resident. I grew up in Springfield and chose to move to Ammerst. I raised my son here. We uh are a community that always stood for things that we were always very proud
of. This is a community that had people that were standup people in the community. Somebody used the term disappointed. I think it's beyond that.
I think it's outrageous. I think it's outrageous because we're living through a moment in time where not caring about how the people that
work for your organization are doing is common place. busting unions, destroying workers lives. It's all very common place. Unsafe conditions, toxic workplaces, mold, respiratory problems. Putting
aside the legal liability, it's all part for the course in the country that we're living in right now. but enamorous. Having a town management that is more committed to spending money on highpriced union busting lawyers
than in working with these folks who are the hardest working people this town has that keep this town going on a daily basis. Emergency in and emergency out. And money is being spent and authorized
by this council to thwart their ability to get a fair contract to get livable wages to work in a safe space. Ammerst. You guys need to think this over.
You really do. Thank you. >> Thank you for coming tonight. Jerry, is there anyone else that has signed up? No. Thank you. That ends the general public comment period. We will move on to item number four on the agenda, which is a
presentation and discussion. This is a presentation and discussion time um as requested by the charter section 2.6 Six request to explore possible solutions that are within the purview of the council to enact. This is under
presentations and discussions. So no motions will be made tonight um because any motions need to come under action items which we do not have tonight. uh perview of the council to enact.
Topics that cannot be discussed include anything that is a mark mandatory bargaining issue. That includes salaries, benefits, working conditions, questions of wages, hours, and other terms and conditions of employment.
uh standards or pro productivity and performance and any other terms and conditions of employment as just a general starting list topics that can be discussed as a potential general list. um things that are within the purview of
the council to enact the overall DPW budget, levels of services, expenditures on capital equipment, expenditures on safety equipment, um water and sewer billing structures, uh potential swing space, uh for use of a
new DPW building, timing of a new DPW building. Those are potential topics that might fall within um the purview of the council to enact. Obviously, neither list that I just raised is complete. Um, and things
sometimes go across those lists. I will be doing my best um to keep the discussion within those topics that are within the purviews of the town council. Um,
if anyone has a question as to that, please raise a point of order. our attorney is here and will help me make a decision as to whether it was is within our purview or not. They are online. I'm seeing a question of like of a counselor sitting here but but we have an attorney
online um in in the panelist. So at this point we will move to discussion um on to explore possible solutions that were are within the purview of the council to enact. Uh, Kathleen, >> I actually have a question. In your long
list of what we could discuss, you didn't say the building. I have several comments I might want to make about the DPW building. Is that part of this discussion? >> That can be part of this discussion. Um, or we have an item on our agenda for
committee reports for the DPW building committee. Um, it can fall under that too after that report is given. >> I think I will use this time period also then. Okay. I don't need to start with that if other people want to start. >> Okay, I'll start. I'll start with the >> I recognize you if you want to.
>> Okay, I'll go to the next person. Okay, so happy. >> I don't understand why it took so long to put together a committee for the new DPW building. We made a decision on where it was going to go and possible two splits. And I've attended
one meeting and heard about another meeting that there does not seem to be a sense of urgency. And we as a council, and I'm directing this mainly to the town manager, but we as a town ma council a while ago, last year said,
"Get ready to put a shovel in the ground with a full plan for it by the end of 2026." That doesn't look like it's going to happen. I don't know why. I I chaired the school building committee and we moved so much faster and we had a more
complicated decision on what we were going to do because we had about six different options but we moved faster than this. I just don't understand the pace and one thing I was really concerned about when I went to the one meeting is another piece of property was
brought in and we've been waiting eight years. What about here? What about here? we made that decision and I don't think anybody should be on that committee who's not adhering to that decision or we won't move forward. So I just want to know whether people have a fire in their
belly to get this done or not. >> Thank you Kathy Anna. >> So this microphone is so much louder. Sorry. Uh, one of the questions that I had was how over time if we can look at the acres of
land DPW is responsible for or miles of road DPW is responsible for and the on one axis and then on the other axis the operating budget that they've been given each year. Um, that was something that was compelling to me as we've added
conservation land, as we've added and trails, as we've added fields, as we've added miles of road. Uh, how it does not sound like the operating budgets have been proportionately increased. And I would love to just see that kind of comparison done out. And it's something
that I could probably pull except for all of the compiled acres of land or miles of road per year. And those are two different areas. But I I think that's one of my concern is we add and add and add without increasing proportionately operating dollars. And that's not touching on staffing numbers,
not getting at that, just operating budget overall. >> Thank you, Councelor Kennel Martin. So, so there's a few things that that I think that we can do and I would love for us to strategize with each other
about the best way to get them done. Um, and it's unfortunate that we can't make motions tonight, but I think that um, at the very least we could talk about things we have agreement upon and like how we can move those, whether it's through a committee or whether it's through a group of counselors, you know,
creating a proposal that we could bring back to the larger council. Um, but I I would like to see like a pathway forward on a few things. Um, the first thing I think would be the swing space, which was something that that you had mentioned. Um, I know that we had spoken informally at the last meeting. um about
possibly using the North Hammer School as a temporary space for um the DPW workers and I just feel like it's unconscionable to have them in that building even one more day. So I I would like to see what is the path forward um what kind of proposal would need to be made where that could come from um and
happy to work on it if that's helpful and you know bring others together to work on that. Um the second piece that I think that we can act upon would be the sewer and water rates. And um I just wanted to point to some materials that were not uploaded to the um meeting materials for tonight but have been
shared with counselors about how our sewer and water rates compared to surrounding communities. And if those were to be um increased or to be altered in in um certain ways depending upon usage, that would actually generate more revenue um that could help with our low
wages. Um the third thing that that I just I would really like to see action on is um the you know settling the current contract. I know we're very close. Um but I just wanted to express to um the town manager that I hope that um this will be settled really soon. Um
I think that you know it's great that we're close. Um, but I I do think the use of this consultant is a barrier and I I would like us to stop doing that because it seems like language keeps getting inserted in. That is not something that was originally there and that's dragging this out even further.
So I that is a concern that I have and um I hope that's something that we can address. >> Thank you. I'm going to respond. water and sewer rates, at least on on two of the items, are tenatively scheduled um
to be brought to the council potentially April 27th or May 4th. That is the typical time frame we hear about next year's water and sewer rates. And we have been having conversations about when those are brought to the council about having a discussion about not just
the rate themselves but also potentially how different categories of users are built. So a restructuring of the whole thing. I'm not describing it well. So so that is tenatively scheduled
for April 27th. it may get pushed to May 4th, but um so so for water and sewer rights there. Um as for any motions, our rules um require main motions and proposals to be in writing and produced. I'm happy to accept any of that at at a
point in time to put on a future agenda. If you would like to make a motion related to anything that includes a memo and all, I encourage you to look at the rules and and submit that memo with a proposed motion that way and and we'll work it into an agenda in an appropriate place.
Okay. Uh Jennifer. Um well, and obviously concurring with what um >> can you speak? Yes. Thank you. You know, obviously I concur with everything that Kathy Shane and councelor Canel Martin uh just said and I feel very strongly
that there has not been any urgency with the building. When I was elected to the council in the fall of 2021, before I even was, you know, sworn in, um, in 2022, all the newly elected counselors were invited to visit the DPW and the
fire station and to understand the urgency of needing a new building, especi well with the DPW, which and aside from this building committee being formed and meeting for the first time in 2026, really nothing tangible happened
in the first in the four years I was on the council and when I we received the email um I think it was on Friday from Mary Lou Thalman which in including the report um from a DPW building committee or it might have been from the finance
committee. No, no, it was 2016. Yeah, that in 2016 a report was issued. It was referred to tonight that the building was unsafe and in poor condition. And I'm sure that committee fully expected that by 2026 there would be a new
building and all of that the DPW staff would have been working at but long before now. So, I just um whether it's a swing space or I don't I'm not an expert on this, but there are butler buildings and prefab buildings if there's some sort of
temporary space that that could be put up. But we it we it really like as councelor Kendall Martin said, it it needs to almost be tomorrow because it's it's certainly not fair or healthy to the DPW department and it is a liability
for the town. So whatever we can do if this committee has to establish I mean the council has to establish a new committee but we need to do something to ensure that the our workers are not um continuing to exist and spend their days
in an unhealthy building and I feel like it's become the way we do business maybe in the town and you know the council has to take some responsibility for this is we don't things don't happen until they reach a crisis. So, I felt terrible that we couldn't
give all the $4 million to roads and sidewalks, but the middle school auditorium roof is so past the time when it needs to be replaced that students are on the stage getting rained on and there's mold and we we really had no
choice. So why can't we plan or and do what two things what we have to do to put the funds aside and if we can't make a go of it if there really are no funds to ensure that when students are in the auditorium they're not being rained on
and that our DPW workers don't need to go outside so they can breathe from the toxic fumes and the mold in the building they're working in. You know, have we spoken to UMass and Ammeris College? Their students who are more than half of
the residents of the town, they must assume that we have a reasonably sound infrastructure and we have clean water and we have fully staffed and well compensated Department of Public Works. And if we cannot if if we don't have the
budget through our small base of taxpayers to for the town to work then I think our institutions of higher learning have to understand how urgent our situation is. Thank you. >> Thank you Sam Mlab. >> Uh thank you Mandy and thank you to all
of those in the meeting and online who have spoken. Uh I appreciate the offer to come visit the DPW from I believe it was Michael. I think I may take you up on that. Um, the descriptions are uh resonate and what popped into my head
was we do have a few vacant buildings currently in town. One that jumped to my mind was the South School. I don't know uh what it takes to make it usable, but people referenced swing space. There's a
building right there. Uh it hasn't been used in a number of years. that might be a fine use for that building considering some of the other alternatives that are out there. Um I think it's in the interest of the
town uh and it would be beneficial I think for the council and um town staff to see if we can identify available options. I recognize that
easier said than done. Uh there may be a lot of um steps that need to occur, but a new building is not going to get built right away. We've seen what it takes,
let alone the funds. So, I don't see why we can't uh jump on multiple avenues at the same time. And that's just that jumped into mind. We do have a few buildings that are out there
maybe trying to make them usable for you know there's the burden the DBW uh leadership and consider the barriers of people in different facilities but uh I think it's a discussion worth happening having and maybe
uh that can address one short term one of the issues I would advocate accordingly Councelor Breick. >> Um, so yeah, I just wanted to follow up
on Jen's point and I think a few others have made points about the urgency piece. I think we're all feeling this. I think we all recognize something needs to be done. We all recognize that the committee process can move more slowly
and that we need something to happen in the meantime. Um, and since this is a discussion, I'm wondering can can we as a council deem the building to be unusable, basically condemn it or something along those
lines? Um, and if anyone knows anything about that sort of route, what what would it take to condemn a building like that? Um, is that under our purview? Is that something we could move on? Um, and if not, are there other ways to get something like that done? Uh, it's not
something I know a tremendous amount about, but I thought if we had this time to discuss if anyone knows, you know, I I just really I can't get past that we're putting people's health at risk tomorrow when they show up to work. Um,
and and all the points that have been made about lawsuits, all the points that have been made about OSHA violations, and it just feels like it is a building that people should not be in. And I think we're all kind of saying this, but I guess I just wanted to raise an idea
to kind of get at some possible action steps and what can we do to stop people from having to go to work in that building as soon as is humanly possible. >> You councelor Walker. >> Um thank you, Mandy Joe. Um, I wanted to
thank the DPW workers um, for coming out again and for speaking again to us um, and to be willing to continue to stand up for yourselves. Um, I feel like I feel very sorry that it it you have had to do all that to be heard and I would
hope that no other department will have to do the same thing in the future when they have uh, these kinds of things happening and they want to be heard by the town council. And so one of the things I would like the council to explore is a regular process to address these kinds of things within depart town departments. Um whether that be having
some process that can go through TSO. Um I'm not sure. But I think it is it is actually egregious that they had to do all of this work just to be heard outside of uh public comment which we have at every meeting. doesn't really
allow for that kind of dialogue that I think at at the very least our town departments deserve. Um, I also just echo a lot of what some of my colleagues have said about the DPW building and and some urgency there and moving that along. Um, I won't bring up I think many
of my ideas have already been stated there. Um, but I did also want to take a moment to voice sort of my frustration about having what it took to have this meeting take place and the fact that um some of those things are process
based and there's not much I can do about that. But I think it feels appropriate to just voice that from my perspective. Um, and that it was my understanding in agenda setting meetings that we would have the ability to present a motion tonight. I had explicitly asked for that to be the case
and so I'm feeling a little bit blindsided and a little bit frustrated. I understand that that is um completely the decision of the council president and I respect that decision, but I just wanted to voice my frustration there because I had a motion ready to go for tonight and am just finding out now that I cannot propose that motion. Um and so
I'm feeling a bit frustrated about that. But I would be happy to um talk about my motion to write a memo to bring it up at the next meeting. Um but again just voicing that frustration and how difficult it has been to just have these conversations with the council which we
can't do outside of these meetings because of open meeting law. And so it feels like just another unnecessary barrier to figuring out what we can do as a council. Um yeah. So I don't know if if it makes sense to even say the motion language to
just uh Okay. So what I would say is you can talk about it. I would request a memo be written with a proposed motion there and and sent to the agenda setting team. Um myself and and you in general.
Um um and I will say I thought during agenda setting I made it clear that by putting this item under presentations and discussions there would be no motions. I know you were in those meetings. Not all counselors were but I thought I had made that clear. So if I didn't and I will try and do better next
time on on that issue. But yeah, >> thank you. I do appreciate that because I do explicitly recall in the agenda setting meeting saying that I think that counselors may want to propose motions and that there should be the opportunity to do so at this meeting. So that was also explicitly said. Not that I was
sure what your ultimate decision was and that we would not be able to make motions outside of action items because I'm not sure that that has uh uniformly been the case. So I think it's very important to be um clear about that. Um
the motion that I have worked on um is sort of aligned with something you talked about earlier, Mandy Joe, in terms of the water and sewer, uh fees and looking at restructuring that and knowing that the finance committee and the town manager will be looking at that soon. Um I'm hoping to request that the
town manager provide the following information with the proposed FY27 water and sewer rates. Um current and projected revenues and expenditures within the water and sewer enterprise funds. An assessment of whether current rate structures adequately support system maintenance and infrastructure needs, workforce sustainability within
the enterprise funded operations, including recruitment and retention challenges within the Department of Public Works, long-term financial um stability of the enterprise funds, consideration of the relationship between enterprise fund capacity and
broader DPW staffing challenges, and consideration of whether adjustments to water and sewer rates or alternative structure structural changes may be warranted to ensure that enterprise funds are adequately resourced in an equitable and sustainable manner. >> Thank you. I do request that you put
that I know it's in writing because you couldn't have come up with that in your head. Um um into a memo, send it to me and we can talk about how we can get that on an agenda. We do have a meeting next week. >> Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Um,
councelor Kenna Martin, Andy, um, I I think the swing space uh, discussion is important. And, um, but I'm not sure if we what how swing space works for, you know, repair bays,
you know, garages. Do we have space that would be adequate for that? Um and and that may be something we'd want we'd want to hear about. We are going to have a school that's going to be empty as of this summer and we have the North Ammeris offices and we have, you know, the the South School. So for office
space, we have plenty of office space. Um, and I guess I I'm it'd be good to to know I I think we should push, you know, with some urgency for that and then figure out what we can do to make, you know,
the the the the heavy dutier repair bay space, you know, safe if we can't if we don't have another repair bay space that we can use. Um, so I guess that's a question that we can dig into. Um,
I um I think that this is one of several financial pinches that we've had in town and um I think it's a symptom of tough choices that the you know management is
put in is put into because we don't have enough money. Um and I think we really need to get serious about generating more revenue in this town. I think we need to have a revenue goal for the town to say what would it take for us to get
um to a point where we have some sort of sustainability um and if we're going to do that I think we have to have um to recognize that you know developing more housing developing more economic activity is a key way of doing that. So,
I think we need to think about the whole system and how we have enough money. So, we're not just saying, "Oh, we can't fix the roads because we have to fix the the middle school roof or we can't pay, you know, these workers because these other workers want more money or we don't we just, you know, we need more money and
we need we need a reasonable plan for getting it." >> Councelor Kendall Martin. >> Yeah. I mean, I I do agree with Andy to an extent, but I don't think there's any money issue that that justifies putting the health and safety of workers in danger ever. Um, that should be priority
number one, that anyone who works for this town should be able to go to work and they should be safe and not be at risk of um becoming ill or injured because of the working conditions. So, I I think that we need to figure that piece out uh sooner rather than later. And again, I just want to circle back to
what is the process to get a swing space. I would like to know is it a motion that we make? Is it a request that we make? Is it you know what what is it? What is that process? And then point number two, I do want to touch on just the fact of the what's been mentioned by the workers many many times
um in this meeting and previously. Um and that is the issue of the turnover rate in this um with this with these jobs and the fact that we're constantly having new people coming in and being trained here in Ammerston and leaving for other jobs where they can make more money and that in turn causing
understaffing and lack of people who have the ability to run our wastewater and our water treatment plants and other equipment in town. That is a health and safety risk for our entire community including Ammeris College including UMass. Anyone who's on our systems that is a health and safety risk. So, I I really I reject the idea that that
shouldn't be addressed in open session because that is something that puts our entire community at risk. And also, I don't understand why the executive session was taken off because we were going to have an executive session where we could talk about these issues with Paul. So, I'm I would like an explanation on that as well if possible.
regarding the executive session. Um the town manager had requested I put it on the agenda and today I received a request that I remove it from the agenda by him. So I'm so I have removed it from the agenda because if it is not a
request of the person who is the um request of the person with respect to bargaining or litigation, I do not believe it should be on the agenda because the town manager, as we've
scene in the charter is the bargaining representative for the town. >> So just to be clear, the only way to talk about this is an open session. >> Collective bargaining issues cannot be talked about in open session.
Lynn, this is a discussion of the town council. This is not general public comment at this time. Lynn, >> thank you. I want to actually thank the workers for coming tonight and the other nights
you've been here. Part of the reason is building on what Andy Churchill has said and that is the people in town of Ammerst need to understand the tradeoffs. Some people want this, some people want
that, some people want yet something different. I will tell you our roads are a mess. I was on one of those building comm I've been on two building committees. I chaired two building committees before I came on this council. This has been one of my agenda
items from day one. Am I sitting here happy about the progress? No, not even remotely. And when I sit in because I've now gone to two or three of the meetings of the DPW building committee and I'm watching
one or two people on the committee suggest we should open up and look at yet different sites. I'm going, "No, we're doing it this way. Let's figure out the swing space. Let's get it done. Let's keep moving forward. we're going to when we build that swing
space, let's make sure that we build it so it's usable for other things or for DPW. So, if we're going to use Ruxton and we're going to put something there, let's put it there so that we can use it over time. In other words, be wise about
how we're spending. But I want to go back to the original point and that is everybody in this town has a demand and we are up against it as is every other
town in Massachusetts. Even the other day, Lexington, the richest town in Massachusetts, is talking about layoffs. I'm sitting there going, "Something's broken." It's broken at the state level. God knows, we know
it's broken at the federal level and unfortunately it's now trickled down. And so I really want to say thank you for helping people understand what you're up against. Two weeks from now, four weeks from now,
we're going to have another group in here. We're going to hear what they're up against. We're going to have parents here. They're not going to be happy about the schools. And then we're going to have another fire and somebody's going to tell us the fire department is
under staffed because and we're lucky we didn't lose a life in our recent big fire. I also want to say to our colleagues sitting here, it is incumbent upon us,
us the counselors of this town to understand the juggling act that we are going to have to do to try to keep a balanced budget and keep Ammerst moving forward. And then we are going to have
to make some other tough decisions about things like zoning, housing, and other things that we've talked about before. So, it's important that we've heard from you. I'm sorry that we are dealing with a building I agree should
be condemned. Hey, it's an old trolley barn and it still looks like an old trolley barn. It is. I've been there many times. I'll be glad to come back for yet another visit and see what the latest buckets
are because I've seen them. It's a mess. Thank you, >> Sam Ml. >> Thank you, Mandy. Um, I'm not familiar with progress or discussions that have occurred to date
on a swing space. Uh, but and that's great to hear. Uh it seems to me that uh if that swing space involves building and other aspects that it's apt to be timeconsuming
uh great to plan but I from my you know perspective or thoughts on this I believe it's still in our interest regardless of what swing space has been
discussed to date that if there are available spaces in town now, um that it's worth identifying what it would take to get it ready. It it it's also I
think would be worth discussing with DPW leadership to identify if the concept of some of these spaces being used is or would be desirable. It could be
organizationally, you know, it could impact communications and some aspects, but you know, would it it does not address the need for a new building and it doesn't address the other items on
discussion, but would it be desirable? And if so, um, you know, what would it take? Maybe it would only be space for the worst offices. I don't know. But if
there's available space, let let me put it this way. Maybe we can identify what's necessary to get them usable and to offer them as usable space if desired. Um there's lots
of other discussions going on here and I'm not, you know, talking negotiations or anything like that, but I just buildings take a long time. We've seen it. Uh money is an issue. We saw some of us saw this, you know, 8 years ago. We don't know how quickly it's going to
happen, but if there's something we can do, we can at least explore it and broach the topic and uh see what it is. Those are my thoughts on the swing space. Thank you, >> councelor Breick.
>> Um, so I raised my hand actually just to say that in terms of the swing space, um, thinking about the school spaces opening up in the fall that I just I feel like that is too long to wait. And I just wanted to throw that in there
that I think it's, you know, barely April and September just feels and in the hot months where mold is really a bigger issue. Um, I just I think that just I want to keep that in mind. But I did want to just also add given some of the other comments that for folks who
are listening to that I don't know if all of us necessarily agree with the sentiment that you know like everybody has their thing so get in line or there are issues outside of Ammer so there's nothing we can do and that kind of sentiment I just really feel like it's
our job to prioritize appropriately and people's health and lives our top priority and we know that I think the counselors who were saying these things We all we all know that we all agree to health and safety are top priority and it is our job to listen to all the
requests but then make decisions not based on you know um the the item of the day but but what's top priority for people's health and safety. Um, and I've already just in a few months seen areas that are
clearly we can, you know, move funds hopefully in this budget season to really think about rep prioritizing in ways that make sure that we keep people safe as our top priority. Um, and also that I agree with Andy fully that we need to think about revenue as a
cohesive goal for the council. I'm I do find it hard to believe that this hasn't been a stated collective effort in the past. Maybe I'd love to learn about what's been done in the past around this, but really work with anyone who wants to work together to come up with some language that could unify our
efforts around increasing revenue. um because it needs to be in my opinion it's it's such a diffuse and broad goal that without kind of agreement or consensus among us on how we want to go about that I think it will be hard to
accomplish and um I I would love to work together to think about the different avenues for increasing revenue. >> Jennifer >> uh thank you. So, and um I totally I mean we all agree that economic
development and bringing more business to Ammerst is a top priority um for any number of reasons certainly to um help us work out of our uh budget challenges. But uh 10 years ago in 2016 when that
DPW committee was meeting and they probably said, "Oh, if we re if we change our zoning and we build more off-campus student housing complexes, that will help us raise the money to build the DPW building." And in the last 10 years, we have um added hundreds of
units of um in apartment the new apartment complexes and thousands of off-campus beds primarily for students. and that has not helped us get any closer to paving our roads and building a DPW building and an a myriad of other
needs that we have. So that is not the answer to our problems. I hear that I was surprised anyway in the campaign trail to hear that talked about a lot that we need to keep building building and that's you know how we're going to um solve our our budget challenges. It's
one component, but that's not and I always talk about um you know our UMass and Ammeris College need to step up and that's something that could happen a lot quicker than building you know adding again hundreds and thousands of
off-campus students beds to our housing inventory. Anna, >> I think just Jennifer, to your point, we've also added new departments and new programs and new land. We It's not that we haven't added new things that have taken up those budget dollars in all
fairness. So, I think that the council hasn't always asked the right questions. Um, and I think what uh, councelor Bravik and councelor Keno Martin said would be really astute elements to make sure our top line in the budget guidelines for next year as we write
those I that is not a a frontline fix right now, but that's you're absolutely right. That is the critical piece here and it should be at the top above everything else is keeping our staff safe. So, I appreciate that. Um, we we're we're kind of asking questions
into the ether and I would like responses. Um, so I'd like to ask the town manager some questions and give you time to to respond maybe before we're done asking all of the questions in the world. Um, and then similarly, I have a question for the town council president and for councelor
Rooney. So, first off, I believe I am not mistaken that Ammeris College did donate land for a new DPW building many years ago. Is that correct? And then the council at the time or town meeting, I don't remember which, it was the council, turned it down because there
were resident concerns about noise. I think we also need to own that we've made conscious choices that have actively delayed this decision and while we may not have been on this body at the time, that is this body's decision and we need to take accountability for that. So
my questions for the town manager, we keep saying swing space. We really mean temp space, right? like we're really thinking it's not necessarily a swing space in that anybody can just hop in and out of it. It's more of a temp space. I'd like to know why or if that has been discussed or why it has not and what I think similar to what uh Sam
Mloud was saying what it would take to do that and what the impact on services might be. I know those are big questions but if there's a rough estimate I'd love to hear that. Uh on the revenue front, something that gets discussed a lot is that the library and the schools both
have state funding entities through the MLBC and the MSBA and there is no state funding entity for other municipal buildings. I would like to know from the council president and vice president whether they've talked to Mindy and Joe about the status of Joe's act uh for to create a municipal and public safety
building authority. That's something that has really delayed a lot of towns, not just Ammerst, but Ammerst, is that we are responsible for the entirety of this funding. There is no state aid for this, which is insane. Uh there is great state aid for schools. There's great
state aid for libraries. Granted, it messes with everybody's timelines depending on when you get those awards, but there's no state aid for public safety buildings. and this needs to be a rallying cry from us of the impact that the lack of aid has had.
Um, and then I also would really like to know I know that we have later on the agenda an update from councelor Rooney about the building committee, but my my question is really how has urgency factored in? How has the urgency of this project factored into the building committee and how that's being
discussed? Um, if you could talk about that in your report. Not needing an answer now. I think those are all of my questions at this point and I don't think I said it before but I want to be very clear that thank you all for coming.
So the state building the bill regarding the a municipal building authority was not discussed in the Febru um but it has been brought up and in fact at the um most recent weo convent
leadership conference Lynn asked the MMA the status of that that legislation and they were not very positive at all that it was going to go anywhere. I think it might have actually did they say it was sent to study? I think they might have said it was sent to study again. >> I thought it was still in committee.
>> The plan was that it was going to be part of the Municipal Empowerment Act and it is not pres >> Yeah. So, they're going to still work on it on the MMA side, but I will add it to the topics for the April meeting that will be next week. >> Thank you. And if there's any advocacy
that the council can do, please let us know. I'd love to give Paul a chance to respond to the town manager. >> You thank you for the questions. I appreciate the conversation and thank you to my co-workers for being here and being really clear about what the needs of the department are. Um, you asked
about the Ammerst College land. Yes, we had negotiated with Ammerst College to get a a very good piece of land. They had been voted by the board of trustees to um give it to the town for a deep for a DPW. Um, and at the time the neighbors
uh opposed it and the uh is determined not to move forward on that. Um, and swing space. I think that's a really important conversation. I appreciate the counselors bringing it up. Um, it's something we've been thinking much way more actively about. You know, we when you think about a building, you think, oh, when you start
construction, you need to create swing space. And there are different ways to do that. But, you know, lately it's like, why wait? Like, let's utilize swing space now. the need is now. So, you know, there are different options available. I think some counselors have talked about the North Ammer school.
There's four classrooms at the North Ammer school. Um, we have talked about a uh initial construction of some buildings that would be used later on at Ruxton. And we've also talked about Wildwood School. Would that be a good swing space as well? And so, our, you know, building commissioners been
looking at that building as well and what the costs of operating that building would be if it gets turned over from the from the schools. that would not happen until they plan to use that building the way I understand it through the summer. Um but they they would like to get rid of it and then if the school
committee releases the building we would have access to that building and there are a lot of benefits to that site um uh for u the swing space and swing space is just we're we're going to tear down the current DPW and build a new structure there. Um and there's, you know, it's
not the ideal site, but it's the site that is the um has the fewest barriers to success, and that's um to demolish it. There neighbors already have a DPW there. There's not going to be that kind of push back. We know what the site contains in terms of environmental
risks. Those those we think can all be mediated. Um and so I think that there's some real So if we're going to build there, we need to move everybody off site to someplace else. So that's and then as we were talking about it internally is like well why wait? Why not just do it now because the need is
is very clearly articulated and clear about that building. Um you know you talked about the municipal building authority. We're not waiting for that. I mean if that happens fantastic but it's not going to you know we're not counting on that. >> So >> can I ask a follow-up please? >> Yes you may. >> Uh sorry I started writing sideways
which is unhelpful to me now. So, is there a way that we can have a plan to get folks into the Wildwood school? Oh, sorry, into the Yeah, the Wildwood School the instant it's vacated, the instant that it turns over. Um, and in the meantime, is it possible for
classrooms might not fit everybody, but is it possible to move some folks at as many folks as possible over to the North Ammer school? I guess timeline on the temp space that'll last a little bit longer. and then feasibility of im as immediate as possible temp space.
>> Paul, >> so we I'd want to review this with the superintendent public works. Uh he has to maintain the operations of the department while everything is moving on. Those are two options that are available to us and the only there you can't just uh the the swing space or the
space at Northammer School was used as a child care facility for Head Start. It does not have internet. We'd have to put internet in there. It's not connected to the town's um uh intrinet. So it's, you know, so but we'd have to do make that we can it's fixable, right? We can make
that happen. Um Wildwood, we wouldn't be able to get in there to modify the space and address the heating and the HVAC stuff that would have to happen. I think the um the work that we have pretty good uh information about the building itself, I think it's either one of these
things where it's um everything is turned on or everything's turned off in terms of HVAC. And so we've looked at some modifications. Can we use um you know, heat pumps to to just heat parts of the building? And so there's different looking at that building on our own. Um assuming that the school
committee will release the building to us come September. And they're and they're hesitant to say anything until they know for sure they're going to get into the new school, which is, you know, again, it's on a tight timeline. We're pretty confident that we'll be able to get in, but they're hedging their bets as well. they're saying, "Well, we don't want to release it if we can't fully
occupy the new building for whatever reason." Um, so I think that those are things that we're actively looking at and um, you know, I think those are real possibilities. >> Thank you, Andy.
Yeah, I think I mentioned Wildwood when I was speaking before, but I also know that we have the RXON space and we have uh water treatment plant offices and we have, you know, the North Hammer School. And I guess um you know, one of the
reasons we're moving kids out of the Wildwood building is because it's not a great building with its own issues. And so I'm not sure that moving, you know, people out of one substandard building into another is the best answer, but um maybe um using the North Ammeris spa,
you know, uh school space and maybe putting a couple trailers in Ruxton or building some sort of temporary bay or you know that that's space that's ready to go. Um so I just I'd be a little hesitant to just say, "Oh yeah, we're going to it's not it's not good enough
for the kids, but it's good enough for the workers. Sam. Oh, Paul, did you want to respond? >> Yeah. So, those are those are all good points. Um, you know, any site has its barriers. There's still permitting things and, you know, you have to go through conservation and all the things
to use utilize RX and it's new construction that would have to happen. So, there's the bidding and the, you know, procurement and construction. An existing building is easier to access quickly. Um, you mentioned other buildings the town owns like the South Ammerst School and that's really not h
inhabitable. It's been out of commission. It we looked at that a few years ago for Ammerst Media and it was not available, you know, just it didn't the H the investment you would have to make in that building was so intense that it didn't make any sense at all. Um, Wildwood, you know, um, has its
issues, but I think, you know, we'd look at our at our capital projects folks to look at it and say what parts of it do work. Um, we're addressing some other needs in the community as well in terms of um, other offices that we have to relocate. Um, we're undertaking the same
people are doing the bang center which was being funded with ARPA funds. Um and so there's just a lot a lot in play but you know clearly um the council's priorities are that DPW has been that way for many years and but you know the
funding opportunities is what drove the prioritization and I think all of us would agree that the priorities would be different if the fundings weren't there and also be honest you know the delays in these major capital projects in the library and in the school have cost tens of
millions of dollars and there are people who oppose things and instead of a $68 million school, we have a hundred million school. Instead of a $35 million library, we have a $46 million library. And those are just simple delays in our own we got to in our own decision-m
that's a true cost in in terms of when people advocate for something different than what the council or has voted, it becomes a real cost to the town that that and those dollars are are not doubled. they go one place or the other
and you know I guess that's I mean and I think that's the challenge for the for the council is that um you know we will look I mean I think the all the requests from councelor Walker about water and councelor Kennart about water and sewer fees and how we up that
you know that's going to be a real decision for the council in terms of what do the residents want to do see in terms of raising their fees I know there's want to do a restructuring and things like that and that's another way to generate more funds, but there's all kinds of complications that can come
with that as well. But I hear that uh and but ultimately the council is going to be asked to prioritize things and they're all goods. You saw that with the choice between a new middle school roof for over the auditorium or roads and you made a decision and that's your your prerogative and that's your
responsibility to make that decision. But they're both needed. No one was saying neither one was needed because they were both needed and that's going to be the where we're going to be. Uh when you look at the budget like there are many needs in the town and not enough funds to meet them all. >> Sam
>> uh thank you Mandy and uh thank you uh Paul for uh responding with your thoughts. Uh I just would like to encourage whoever is contemplating options to uh not limit the
potentials. Um uh you know a non ideal destination for a short time period might be better even though not perfect and not up to you know brand new uh desiraability to the current exist
existing situation. Um, and that would be the case we're at Wildwood, North Ammerst, and South Ammerst School. Uh, from my perspective, but I'm not an expert in these issues. uh but I would
encourage considering the time frame of need and weighing it against the uh quote unquote quality needed as possible options because maybe
a short term and multiple it you know for me uh does it need to be a single swing space? Why you know maybe there can be a few. It's not ideal. I mean, we there's a desire for a new building, but in the interim,
maybe there can be three different locations if it makes sense for the DPW. I'm sure they'll have opinions on uh different locations, but this is just a thought to um consider all alternatives
uh given what I heard today. uh and even you know even if it's peace meal first stage second stage prior to when the construction takes place whenever that might be. So, another thing popped into my head I
don't think is viable, but uh I don't the Jones Library building there on University Drive. They're going to vacate that, right? I I don't know what we pay. My guess is it would be too much compared to the alternatives. But, um you know, I'm just
indicating if we think outside the box, maybe there's some other locations in town that could be desirable. and we're talking about a short-term staging process and I realize that's not the main end goal. Uh but it's what I
heard from a description of a situation from some folks here today and thank you all for uh coming to work. >> Councelor Kendall Martin. >> Yeah. Um just a question for you Mandy Joe in terms of like council action on
the swings phase. Sorry. In terms of council action on the swing space, can you just explain like how we would do that? Is it a motion? Is it like what is it? So, our rules require that any measures and and that sounds like it would be a measure of some sort of
measure is not just a bylaw or or a financial order or something. And obviously, we can't propose financial orders, but bylaws and other measures must be in writing, limited to one subject, clearly stated in the title, be bear the name of the sponsor, and be in a form necessary for final adoption. Um
the council clerk and I are always happy to work with any person who wants to propose a measure to make sure that the rules are followed and that it's something that is actionable. Um I I think in a case like this we would need to work together to figure out what the
actionable part of it is. So I don't have a specific answer for you tonight on how that would like take a form of what it could look like. But certainly the clerk and I are are happy to work
with you to make sure it would be something that is actionable. Sorry, I can't do better than that. Um, councelor Ryan, >> I can understand the desire to want to
do something and one of the first and most important things that we're doing is having this conversation. Um, it's good for us. It's good for I think the people who
work the town to hear this. It's good for those who are listening and may listen later. Understand some of the challenges we face across the board. So, the desire to do something. Um, I understand that very much. What I've heard tonight
and I'm I'm sure I'm missing some things, but three large topics. One of them has been swinging space and the pressing health and safety issues and to what degree um that can be addressed immediately and that sounds like something that um the manager is going
to be looking at very carefully. He's been talking to the head of DPW. I'm not sure a motion by this council is going to at least at this point in time is going to have any impact. Um I think we need to let him do his job and he I think hears tonight very clearly our
concern. So I would suggest uh that on that score something needs to be done. At least we need to find out what's possible, what's feasible. Um and that's something the manager can report back to us on. If at that point we still are not happy as a group, then perhaps motions
could be called for. But I think we're also hearing that it's a complicated issue. Um so I think we will hear soon and we want to hear soon from the man from the manager about that issue and particularly related to the issue of health and safety. The second has been a larger question
that um I think was addressed at least in part by councelor Walker's uh potential motion and maybe a motion there is something that would be appropriate to look at the larger issue of water and sewer rates and how that uh plays out. Um, so perhaps a motion next
time would be appropriate and directing the manager as to what we would like him to do and come back to us with some answers as to what's possible and what's feasible that addresses as I understood the motion or at least the idea behind it. Some of the longer range issues we
face issues of retention stability in the program. This is a crucial element of our infrastructure and we obviously have concerns about it and so we want to see what to what degree water and sewer rates might play a role in that. The third thing I'm hearing tonight and
I haven't heard anything about it yet but maybe it's coming later when councelor Rooney speaks is the DPW building committee. What I have heard so far is rather concerning that apparently we have some members of the committee who are uh thinking of doing something different than what we thought they were
supposed to be doing. So I really do want to hear in a few minutes I hope from somebody. Um I'm sorry Pam from you hopefully and maybe from Paul and anyone else who's involved directly. What I have in my notes here is quote light a fire under the DPW committee building
committee unquote. Um, but then I'm hearing things that sounds like some people wouldn't be affected by that fire. They would just be immune to it. So, that's the third thing I'm hearing is just the the issue of getting the building built. Um, there's probably other issues that I'm missing, but those
are the three and those are my thoughts on it. >> Andy? Yeah, I think just in terms of um figuring out what the role what kind of motions we would want to make. Um I think if it's if it's
about figuring out what space will work, I think that's a matter for the DPW uh you know staff to to work with the manager on. And we could have a motion to say please come back to us with you w with a proposal. Um, but I I don't think
we should have 13 of us discussing where we should put the swing space because we might never get around, you know, we we don't know enough. Um, but I do um I do I do think that that that a message has emerged that
this is something that's of interest and I I think um you know I'd be surprised if we don't hear hear it from it but I would certainly support a motion to say you know bring us a a report on spring on how we can you know come up with some
space that's safe as quickly as possible with great urgency. Um, so that's the kind of thing I think we can identify some some priorities and some goals, but I'm not sure I want to sit around and say, well, we should put this department up at Ruxen and this one over in the, you know, the the North Ammerst building
and whatever. I think that's that's the the administration's job. >> Thank you. Um, as the two of you were talking, going back to Councelor Ken Martin's question, um, charter section 2.8 8 and
the way um Pam and Kathy used it early in the tenure with a memo under charter section 2.8 to request in investigatory andformational requests from the town manager um and a presentation at the
council may be one of the options to use um if if it's mostly information and specific information is thinking. So, so just that's a possible we have an example of a memo um and all that was
used and that will be coming theirs will be coming back to us in midappril. Um so, but I can certainly talk with you later about that. I just wanted to bring that up as as it hit my head. Um councelor Hannah Martin, >> I I just had one sort of outstanding question that I I feel like hasn't been
addressed and I I just wanted to see from from Paul. >> I'm trying. >> There we go. I'm trying. Um, so I just want to see from the town manager, can we have a commitment not to use these types of consultants that are engaging in union busting tactics going forward
because that is a huge concern of mine and I I'm also concerned it might affect other bargaining units in the town. So I don't know if that's something we can put into like our principles or values or mission statement, but I I think that that would go a long way as well into having a sense of sort of trust and and valuing of our workers to not have folks
consultants who are engaging in those tactics. So I am not going to recognize the town manager on that issue because that gets into the actual process of collective bargaining which is solely under the town manager's perview right now. >> That's why an executive session would have been helpful.
>> Um no hand I see no other hands at this time for this item. So we will be moving on to the committee reports. Item five, DPW building committee. Pam, our our counselor on the
building committee. Well, I feel like it's all been kind of dumped in my lap here. Um, let me position this a little better. Thank you. I want to say I am really honored to be
on the building committee. Um, I volunteered for it. I've been waiting for this moment for the 10 years since the 2016 study was done and I asked if I could please represent the council and I
was nominated for that. Um, I have a background in construction management. I have a background in swing space management that I did at the University of Massachusetts and I am very focused regardless of what
people are saying. I am very focused on getting this done as quickly as we can to the point of expediency. The charge that we were given well the charge I think we developed we approved last July but our committee fully formed
and met on July I mean January 21 this year. The charge to the committee focused on the use of the existing site of the existing DPW facility. So on February 11, the committee met
with a previous consultant, the the the Weston and Samson mentioned before um to hear about changes in the industry since 2016, energy codes, code, energy efficiencies,
ventilation requirements. Somebody mentioned wetland considerations, all of the all of the things that may have changed since 2016. That report did evaluate or at least reviewed the existing DPW site, but the
consultants have a proposal in to verify the information for the existing site and there's a pot and they were asked at least to give a cost proposal for the same level of inspection at the Ruxton
site. It was also suggested within the meeting, one of the committee members suggested that we also get an evaluation of the Wildwood Elementary School site. However, it was noted by me that a great deal of information already exists about
the elementary school site on Wildwood because of the uh exploration that was done uh in this in the opportunity that it might have been become a the actual school site. Sorry about that. and I argued strongly that we did not
need to redo that uh examination or spend money on it. So right now at this moment the committee is finalizing requests for qualifications for an owner's project manager. We have to have an owner's project manager in
order to kind of move forward and hire a designer. Um that's been that's been edited. will talk about it and hopefully adopt it at our next meeting. It will go out and get hopefully qualified owners, project manager, applicants.
We have to do that. They have to do that for any project that's I think over a million and a half dollars. Coming on the heels of that, I have also I've also looked at a draft for the um request for qualifications for design
services. So right one after the other and that would be for something all the way through construction administration. So um those two contracts are in the works and getting ready to go. Uh and
I'm hoping that those are done by the end of this June. So just in a month or two we would have those on the street. There are some up um I'm going to talk a little bit about swing space and then give you the upcoming meetings.
um the list of formulating swing space and taking everyone's comments. If you want to email me directly and just say, "Hey, take a look at this, take a look at that." Um it has been on my own personal to-do list to start that list
of swing space and the capacities of each of these places to accommodate functions within the existing staff needs. earlier obviously is better than later in terms of getting a department into
space that is less problematic than where you are now. Um, so the swing space is an early need and I think as Lynn pointed out, whatever we do, whether it's swing, meaning move in,
move back to the new facility or a or a or a permanent addition to the complex of facilities that we have. um those new constructions need to be as efficient as possible so that we're not wasting money
on uh just a temporary shed when it could also serve us long term. That's the kind of um so if anyone has ideas or thoughts, email me. I'm on the on the
town council website.gov and you can ask questions about the building committee or ideas about where we might put folks. Um, the next upcoming meetings, April 8 at 2 p.m.,
April 15 at 2 p.m., April 29 at 2 at 2 p.m., May 13 at 2 p.m., and May 27 at 2 p.m. Some of the locations vary, but those will be on the town website.
Those are all in person. Um, those are all in person and I do not believe that they are they haven't been hybrid yet and I'm hoping that they may be hybrid. >> If you have any questions, I'm happy to answer them now.
>> Questions, councelor Ryan. >> So, two, uh, the first is this talk of alternate sites, is that something you feel is gone and is not going to come back or is this something that may be a recurring theme over the next few months? I think I think the same person will
bring up the issue again and I think it may be met with the same response because I think if we are if we're going to move ahead with any kind of speed we can't be we can't be spending time analyzing another site.
>> I mean the charge does explicitly state >> Yes, it does. Yes, it does. So perhaps read the charge >> be on the committee. >> Yeah. Right. The second question is whether you feel that and this is just subjective and maybe it's not fair but do you feel that there is a strong sense
of of urgency? You do. Okay. >> Yes. >> I know you share it. You feel that your many of your colleagues do as well. Okay. Thank you. >> Especially especially Gil Guilford >> Kathy.
>> Um I know you and I did this once just the two of us. We walked the Ruskin site just to get a sense of you all probably know what it looks like, but it's near my house and I walk the dog there a lot. This time I walked it with where might you put a building. Are you going to
take the committee up to walk that site? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> And I don't remember which of these days. Uh actually it's April 29 cuz one of the virtues of it, it's not necessarily the only virtue of it is it gets fantastic Wi-Fi reception because
there's a tower right there, you know, but but you know then there other issues around it. So, just a question. When Lynn said temporary, I thought when we were looking at that that it might be a permanent building that would temporarily used one way and then would
be used another way so that we would be starting if we're building at two sites. So, I know Pam that's part of the discussion, but I just if you can get your one member off not wanting to look for other sites, but just really focus on Yeah, these are the these are the two
biggies. So, so you think it's the 29th? I just >> The 29th is the visit to Roxton. >> Okay. Thanks, >> Lynn. >> Um, having now been to two of the meetings and at the last meeting I was joined by
two other counselors and we all specifically expressed strong opposition to the idea of even bringing in the Wildwood site. And I just have to say I hope that we're done with that
discussion because it's only causing delay. The second thing is every once in a while I hear people say, "Oh, but it needs to be in one location." Hey, DPW is never going to be in one location. You're already in multiple locations.
And if we were in a big urban area, you'd be all over the place. And so you know how to communicate with Wi-Fi and phones and all the other devices that you have. and we probably don't even know. So, um, this issue that a DPW can
only be in one site, we defy that anyway because we're never going to move our sewer and water plant to one location with everything else. So, please let that not be the enemy of the good. Um, so in the process of all of this, um, I
think if you feel that the council needs to reiterate its commitment to the existing site to send a message, uh, please let us know that. We'll bring up motions in the future. Thank you, >> Councelor Kennel Martin.
Pam, um, I just wanted to make a suggestion to you all if you might want to. Um, I think you could probably update your charge and think about including maybe one or two DPW workers on the committee if you all are amendable to that. Um, just to have that input built in. Um, and I don't know
about the feasibility of attending meetings at at two in the afternoon. I know I would I would love to attend a meeting, but generally I can't do in persons around that time. I usually have to do Zoom. So, um, making those meetings hybrid would be helpful. and then perhaps consulting the union to see if you all would have one or two people
that could be on that committee. >> So, I believe the charge was created by the town manager, not the town council. So, I would request that you direct that request of of an amendment to a charge directly to the manager who is sitting here. But,
>> Paul, would you be able to do that? >> We certainly consider it. >> Thank you. Um, Anna, oh, sorry, Sam and then Anna. Uh, thank you Mandy and thank you Pam. Um, question Pam, I assume many people
may already be aware of this, but am I correct that part of the task ahead for the building committee is to con as designs come forward to consider designs of various scopes that would have different cost breaks? Is is it just too
early to be thinking like this? Um well, I'll just say that there is a budget >> and and this and any alternatives um must come in with within that budget. It's um so let's let me step back. If
this were if this were an ideal situation, we would we would continue to to to explore sites. We would continue to um think about all the ways that um you know
every every possible scenario could be met with this new facility. It will be the facility for the next 50 to 100 years. Um but we have a budget, we have a site and we will create a really great
facility there. So, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. >> Uh, I I think you've answered my question. Uh, which would have been the question I should have asked. So, I understand what you're communicating. The budget's going to determine the
options. Um, and secondly, I just wanted to say uh I'm glad hearing your background that the council selected you for this committee. Thank you. >> Uh it uh I I'm I'm glad that you're representing
the council on this. Thank you. >> Thank you, >> Anna. I Pam, I appreciate the work that you're doing on this committee and also it sounds like the work that you're doing to focus members on the charge. Uh you and others are doing to keep folks focused on the charge. I keep thinking
about how uh what I don't want to end up with is a camel, which is a horse designed by committee. Um, and and I I worry that when we're constantly throwing in new ideas to something that a decision has been made, even if everyone doesn't love it, we're going to end up with a camel. So, I appreciate your focus there. My concern is really
logistical. Um, I I share Amber's inability to always make 2 p.m. weekday meetings. Uh, but I'm curious when I looked on the committee page, um, the meetings weren't necessarily posted. It said that the the committee will determine the meeting day and then there
didn't seem to be minutes. Uh and I assume there won't be recording since it's not hybrid. This is not me pressuring. I'm just curious if there will be minutes soon so that those of us who can't attend the 2pm can keep up with the committee more accurately or more quickly.
>> Paul, yes. So minute minutes are prepared and they'll be on the next meeting's agenda. Thank you for all past meetings. >> Great. Thanks. Um, Lynn, you know, just a small piece of history. Uh, since the beginning of
the council, there has been an RFP to look for additional sites for DPW and we basically I mean the town manager can address this better. We came up empty. Uh so and then there also was the look at the site um off of Stanley Street and
the issue besides noise was the fact that it's neighborhood and people felt that we were picking on lower income people and putting a dump in their backyard. Just to put it bluntly, it's my district. I heard it. I was at all
those meetings. Thank you. Seeing no other hands at this time, um I am going to make a motion to adjurnn. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Thank you. Um we will move to a vote. We
start with councelor breick. Brevik, >> yes. >> Councelor Keno Martin, >> yes. Andy Churchill. >> Yes. >> Anna Delgen Gothier. >> Hi. >> Lyn Greimemer. >> Hi. >> Mandy Johan is an I. Councelor Lord.
>> Hi. >> Sam McCloud. >> Hi. >> Hamron. >> Oh. >> Yes. Councelor Ryan. >> Oh yes. >> Kathy Shane. >> Yes. >> Jennifer Tob. >> Yes.
>> And councelor Walker. >> Yes. >> The motion to adjurnn passes. We are adjourned at 8:19 p.m. >> I can just say you really appreciate all.
>> Well, thank you for coming. >> Thank you all for coming. Thank you so much.