Great. Well, I will call this meeting of the CPA committee to order for December 18th, 2025 uh on Zoom. It's 6:03 p.m. Welcome everyone.
Um I the first order of business is to is some announcements. Um, and so I we have one change, one slight change to the
agenda, um, which Leah let me know about um, this week and you may have noticed it that one of the, um, one of the presentations today that's sort of Oh, Leah, did you >> No, sorry. >> Oh, sorry. I thought you were waving to
me. Um, one that the one of the presentations that was originally slated for historic preservation has moved to recreation which is um the industrial history. Is that right?
>> Yes. Of the Mil River. It's not the continuation of the survey. The other one >> right that stays in. So, so tonight's um originally this is the final evening for presentations um from our 16 proposals and it was
originally slated to be all historic preservation, but we do have one recreation uh proposal now as a result of that switch. Does anyone have questions about that or Okay, great. So, that was one announcement.
Um, I also wanted to, um, remind those who are with us tonight and those who may be watching this on Zoom later that we have, um, a brief um, break over the
holidays and we come back together to begin deliberations on January 15th at 6 PM. And we will have one additional opportunity for public comment on the 15th um before as we do it at the beginning
of each meeting and then we will um go into deliberations and that will be the end of the public comment opportunity. Um we will have public comment this evening in just a few minutes. So, um, I wanted to just review quickly,
especially for new members, but from my experience, and Bob mentioned this, I think last week or, um, another time, that sometimes it's two or three years into this work, um, where you you just need some reminders of the process um,
or at least I did. So, I'm just wanted to go through the process of what we'll be doing in deliberations um very briefly and then we'll go into approving minutes and public comment. Sound okay?
All right. Um, so we mentioned at a the very first meeting of CPA this fall that uh we we looked at um we took a very quick look at the um sort of ranking
spreadsheet that we use um during deliberations. But I just wanted to offer up another spreadsheet that Leah will be sharing with you after the meeting that just helps in preparation for that meeting of deliberations on the
15th. And so what I think would be useful is to have everyone between now and the 15th have an opportunity to review your notes, review any of the meeting um recordings. uh the questions. We have a whole list
of questions that we gave to applicants and got responses for any of that material. Um the notes that you've taken, the minutes and get a sense from your own perspective how you rank each of these projects and the way we
rank them is one to five. That's been the process to date um or of of late at least in the last five years. um one being sort of the least uh you know high five being the highest ranked and one
being the least um uh in terms of what you want to move forward probably you wouldn't want to move that particular project forward and oftentimes you know it's three or four something like that in the middle and folks
if you refer to the CPA guidelines um that are on um the CPA portion of the town website. It talks about how you know kind of generally speaking how we look at these um projects and it's again it's you're bringing your own
perspective your own um you know that's why we have you know diverse perspectives from across the town as to what is kind of an most urgent perhaps what has maybe what's going to affect um the largest number of people
what is most likely to be um able to be complete completed. Sometimes we have proposals that um are super thorough and we we feel very confident that they can be completed and other times it's it's a looser proposition. So it's it's a set
your own sense of you know um the importance the urgency the likelihood of getting completed the um the effect on the town and we also will be looking at the percentage that we require for each of the different categories. So that's not
something that you have to worry about or take into consideration initially. Um but the rankings are honestly just to get yourself in a sense of priority. Then we and I'll share just in in a second um the spreadsheet. This I'm
offering to you can use your own. You can do whatever you want, but it's just a way to simplify it for you to keep your notes. And um Leah kindly put all of the proposals in the amount of the requests of the proposal and an a category for ranking uh I mean a column
for ranking. Then when we come together on the 15th, we have an opportunity to share all of our rankings for each project. So we could see where the committee is in terms of cohesion. We might be all leaning towards one uh or two and maybe
we're just, you know, all over the map on the rest of them, but it the way it often comes out is that there are probably a handful in which we have diverse perspectives and those are the ones we start having conversations with because those are likely the ones that we want
to have. We want to hear from everyone about their perspective on on um on the project and try to build some type of you know make your case for something. We try to build consensus but then in
the end we vote um on each project. So, I'll just show you quick or Leah will show you quickly. Um, and anyone who's gone through this process and wants to offer any other additional insight, we could do so now or we could do that um
on the 15th. But this is this I just wanted you to see this so that you would know kind of where the you know between now and the 15th what kind of time to set aside to get prepared so that you're ready to provide your own rankings.
So, um, thank you, Leah. So, this is just we'll send this out. Again, it's a tool. It's it's whatever you know, if it makes it easier for you. If you have something more sophisticated you have been working with or want to work with, that's totally fine. but it's essentially what
is the proposal number, the category, the name of the applicant, um the project, the amount, and then it a column for ranking. And you might begin to say oftentimes when you rank something really high or in the middle, you have a sense of um especially when
we have limited funds, you know, $6 million in requests and $2.4 million available. we have to either uh re decline several or we have to um reduce some of the amounts that we can give from what is
being requested. So you can begin building that kind of sense initially and any notes you have as to why you would rank something a one or a two or a five. >> I don't know why the formatting is a little off but it should be fine when you guys get it. >> Yeah, it looked fine when you sent it to
me. Um, and can I just I wanted to note I'm assuming I should have done this, but the Amoris All-Wheel Skate Park project that reduced their budget in the last meeting, I believe it was >> I and they had two options, 20,000 or 40. >> I reduced it to 40 just so we were sort
of at that >> level. Yes. Thank you. >> And I put a note that it could be either 20 or 40. >> Thank you. >> Just in case your totals look different than the original ones that we sent out. >> Great. Thanks for that note. Appreciate that. Uh Jonas, you had a question.
>> Yeah. I'm wondering um in this leadup to the 15th, should we be looking at the total and the available? Should we be >> Yeah. >> trying to like let's say we love eight of them and they're coming in at 4 million. Should
we start just trying to prioritize to try to get it in our heads down to the two and two two and a half million? >> Yeah, it's often helpful. Um it it may not ever come out like any one of us would imagine in our in the spreadsheet, but it is helpful because oftentimes
someone brings an um you know a suggestion to the table and we we discuss that at least as a starting point. So, it's a great way to it's it's a great exercise if you can do that and get a sense of where you and it also is a great exercise because if you think
something's a five anyway, you'll see that you'll say, "Oh, but it's a five, but I, you know, we just don't have enough versus a three and I think we should only do this amount." Um, and we can we can talk through this at
before we will talk through it a little bit more on the 15th. Robin. >> Um, yeah, I just wanted to I don't know if this time for it, but one of the things that um took me a minute to
understand was how bonding works. >> So, we're looking at $6 million here, but let's just play. Imagine that we took $4 million of projects and bonded them all. we'd have enough because the bonding >> the funding for it doesn't start until
uh the project starts and so then the bonded yearly amount gets applied to that year's CPA funds if that makes sense. It's definitely a a challenging process to understand, but it's basically like kind of like the credit card. So, we push it over there and
it'll hit in other years, but it won't hit this year. Yeah. if you had a shortfallion dollars and you decided to bond one of your projects, you actually wouldn't have a shortfall. So, >> that is such an important point, Robin. Thank you. And Jonas um is that that's
that's something we will review. We will have um Sean with us um on the 15th to talk about that. But it is great to kind of see what you how you might do it if we weren't bonding. Then maybe have in your mind some of the larger amounts and you can play with it. and then when we
talk with Sean we'll have a better sense of um what that could look like. So I really appreciate that Robin that's a really good point Jonas >> curious is there any kind of his historical data of like how much what percentage ends up getting bonded of the
shortfall like is it is it like pretty often it gets bonded or big >> I don't think I have that data but we can show we we can send you again the current schedule so you can kind of see >> how things are scheduled but I don't
have it in terms of Right. >> But we recommend we might recommend it, but of course we don't. >> That's true. >> That's the other piece of it. Yeah. >> Just a recommendation, not a >> Yeah. >> Just carry any more. >> Yeah. And we will have also have the opportunity to request
some guidance at that point from the town as to um prioritizing certain of the town projects and maybe bonding. Sometimes they come to us with a suggestion like here's here's one way you might do it and we talk about that and we might use
it and we might not or adjust that. Um Dave, did you have a addition? Yeah, I was just going to kind of build on that last point you made, Katie, which is I guess my advice to the committee would be
um to start with your your your sense of the project, its importance, how well it's put together, how well the budget is put together. Um and I I guess you know if I were in your shoes I I at this stage I wouldn't worry as much about the
total uh of all the 16 projects. >> You know on the face of it you know does the project have merit? Obviously it is eligible. Does it have merit? And how do you feel about you know how it's put together and how it's been presented? and then on the 15th and then you know
it might take us a couple of meetings when Sean when Sean comes in as Katie said we'll we'll staff will get a sense of where you all are going and then we might go away on the 15th and say let us work some numbers come back to you the
next week with an idea or two or three and see which approach you you you like but I would also advise you to take a look at that initial spreadsheet because that shows you what projects are still being uh bonded, borrowed and how many
years each one has because the more you bond or the town bonds these projects, the less we will have moving forward for projects in the future. But I would lead with the merits of the project, how well they were presented, put together, the budgets, and then let's, you know, let's
let's take a look at the numbers in January. >> Yeah, thank you Dave. And I I appreciate you saying that because when I went through, you know, just review I just from my own experience reviewing 16 projects, ranking them and having a
discussion about all 16 it it's really it can't be done in one meeting. It's very hard to do that. I mean unless some unless things were not eligible or you know things were more obvious. So it will definitely take two meetings. If I could, there could be an opportunity that we, you know, in the past we have
gone back to applicants and said, could you do it for less, >> you know, and and and propose a reduced budget. So that's that's a possibility, too. >> Thank you. And Bob, >> I'm I'm sorry to raise and lower raise
and lower. My question keeps getting answered personally. Um, I I just want to emphasize the concept that I did not get until the last meeting when Dave described it to us, which is that if we send something
nonbonded to the council, it's up to the council to use town funds and resources to do the bonding. If we send it to the council with our recommendation that the CPA be responsible for the bonding for
the debt service, then it's our responsibility for that 10 year or whatever period moving forward. The concept that I had not understood that I understand now is that to a degree we're
taking resources from the future by bonding something because it does diminish the capacity of CPAC in the future with respect to the resources available. I had not understood that it's not may not be that significant but
seems important to me. >> Yes. Thank you. And and when you with that with what Bob just said, when you look at um the debt schedule that we have, you go, oh, when you look, you know, out 10 years, you see the amount that is devoted from CPAC dollar, future
CPAC dollars to projects that have been approved. So that's that is an important piece and we'll go through we'll go through all of this. I don't want to take up too much more time. Um, but I I and I I think what I'll do is I'll put um Leah, when we talk tomorrow, we I'll
just put a few of these bullets in an email with with the um with the spreadsheet so that you have all that in advance. And Ellen, >> yeah, I just wanted to ask about a deadline. Um I know we've marked off the
15th and 22nd on our calendar. So, does it have to be absolutely decided everything on the 22nd because it sounds like we have more proposals than ever before? >> No, it's I mean we have to make we have
to get this to the town council, have it approved um before July 1. It's like but no, we need to do it before then. But um but yeah, no, it is we won't we don't have to have it completed by January 22nd.
But it would be good if we came close to that or Yeah. nearby. Yeah. Well, we'll just see. We'll see what the 15th how that unfolds and go from there. >> Great. Well, I don't think Leah, we need
to show the the big spreadsheet. We've seen that before. Um >> Okay. and we'll we can share we can like share that or screenshot it for the email. All right, great. Um it does look
like um the next item is to approve minutes. Um and I would this is these are the um minutes from Oh my gosh, I've lost it now. December
4th. Is that right? Yes. >> So I would uh entertain a motion to approve the minutes. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Thank you. Um any
comments on the minutes changes? Okay. And then we'll do a roll call vote um on the minutes. have motion to approve the minutes as presented and seconded. And I will start with Ellen.
>> I >> Bob >> I >> Jonas. >> Hi >> Jason. >> I >> Robin. Oh, you're muted.
>> Thought I undid that. I >> and Tim >> I I >> I'm an Thank you. I'm an I and uh so those minutes uh are approved. Thank you.
Now we have to find someone who has not yet done any minutes to take the minutes for this evening. Is there anyone who has not? I don't believe I have. Um >> Jonas, you haven't? >> I don't think so.
>> Jason, you did last week. Is that right? >> Yeah, >> that's correct. >> Thank you. >> So, Jonas, is that a is that a an off? >> Yeah. And uh is it uh possible to get the transcript at the end? I think actually I think I can save it. I see an option to save it. Um >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's a good starting point. So, I'm not >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. My apologies. I didn't put that in my notes to start off with that, but you will have um a the recording as well, Tim.
>> Yeah. Um I have not done minutes yet and I am going to propose I can do the 15th. I just am hesitant up to this point because I'm still recovering from my surgery and uh I should be fine on the 15th. But
>> thank you. >> We'll see. Well, >> so far good progress. >> Okay, good. Great. Well, let's hope that continues and I appreciate you offering and then we know ahead of time. So, thank you. >> Great. All right, so we'll move uh now
to um public comment. I just wondered if the those who are in attendance, we have a few who are presenting, but I wondered if those who are in attendance who wish to speak during public comment could just raise their hand just so we could
get a sense of how many wish to speak. That would be helpful. if any. So, if you're if you're here uh to listen, great. And um if you're here as a as a presenter, wonderful. But if
you'd like to speak um during our public comment section of the agenda, please raise your hand so we have a sense Not. Oh, I have one. Um, nope. Is that right? It went away, but we can try.
Okay. So, it looks like we do have one. Uh, if you could just uh state your name and where you live. I I don't have the name. It just says iPad. >> Hi. I'm not sure actually what the public comment part is, but my my name is Margaret Orlip and I'm um part of the
the uh Mil River History Trail presentation. >> Oh, great. Okay. Oh, so yes, if you're a presenter, we'll we'll call on you in the order we have that um written up, but it public comment is uh the opportunity for anyone in in the public
to make um a statement uh about any one of the uh projects being proposed. >> I understand. Okay. Yes. Actually, me and Brian will be making our presentation. Okay. Yep. Thank you. >> Great. Thank you. Appreciate Margaret. Yeah. Okay.
Do you see anyone else, Leah? I don't >> see any other hands raised. Okay. >> Well, then we should move along. And I apologize. I don't have printed out the order in which you had it on the agenda. Is the first one the Jones library.
>> Terrific. >> Yes. So maybe we move Margaret myself from this discussion. >> Robin is recusing herself. That's right. >> So uh I will join you after. >> Okay. Thank you very much. Tim, your
hand is raised. I don't know if that's intentional. Okay. Go. >> It is purposely raised. >> Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Good. >> Okay. Um I just wanted to have a disclosure. I was part of the fundraising team for the Jones Library
as they were in their early stages. I'm no longer on that team. Uh but just for full disclosure, I do not feel I need to recuse myself, but just for disclosure, I wanted to mention that. >> Thank you. >> Yep.
>> Thank you. And Lee, I think there are two people in our panelists that don't need to be here and then we could bring in is it Kent and Sharon? I'm not sure who else from Jones.
I'm assuming we're going to start with Sharon. Yeah, Sharon and Kent Fer, I think. I I could be wrong, but I thought the both of those But but I think iPad can move back out.
>> Greetings Sharon. Welcome. >> Hello everybody. Thank you for having us. >> Yes, it's good to have Are you joined by anyone else? >> Let me check out. So Bob Parent uh Hicks G is George. Uh Josephine Penta
is from Fineold Alexander and Kent Ferber. So >> will all of those everyone will be speaking >> speaking answering questions. Yes. >> Okay. >> Great. Well, thank you Sharon for being
here. Um, and welcome to all the presenters. >> Thank you. Thank you. Uh, Ken does start when he >> Okay, got it. Once we get him in. Thank you. Sorry, we weren't sure who was starting, but um I just just as a
reminder to all presenters, and I'll say this each time. Um, and maybe I'll wait till Kent is here so he hears it. Um, do you see him, Leah? >> Yep. I've >> Great. There. Okay, Harry's coming.
Okay, so uh we have about 20 minutes in total for each um presentation. So, we're uh we usually ask presenters to try to keep the presentation as best they can to, you know, seven minutesish so we have enough time for questions. Um
so, welcome Ken. I hear you're you're the first to go, so take it away. >> Thank you very much. Is Sharon is Jim Alexander? >> Jim is here. Leah, can you let Josephine in? Josephine Pento >> and And Jim
>> and Jim is with us. >> Jim is here. >> Oh, he's already on. He's the expert. He's the expert. >> Oh, thank you. >> You didn't ask for Eugene, did you? >> No. >> No. That's it. That's the gang. Thank you.
>> Okay, great. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, I are Thank you very much for letting us make a presentation and for for your willingness to tackle what's obviously going to be a tough u session um with much more being asked than you
have to give away. Um, what we'd like to do tonight is I'd like to say a few introductory remarks and then I'd like to turn it over to Jim and Josephine to uh describe in more detail exactly what we're trying to do with this project. I think our application
is replete, speaks for itself. There's a lot of information in there along with the answers we gave uh to your questions. Uh basically we're seeking help for a small part of a much larger project um renovating and expanding the downtown Jones Library. And um by the
way this is not a town project. I see it was listed that way. This is the building is owned by the Jones Library Incorporated which was the corporation that was formed to receive the bequest from Samuel Mined Jones back in 1921. Um, I thought it might be helpful just
for me at the beginning to say a few things that maybe distinguish this project. Um, first and foremost, the coast of course we think the historic preservation we're doing here is really really important for the town. Um, it's an unusually valuable and beautiful part
of the town's infrastructure that we're trying to save here. And it it it and it's right at the town center. Um secondly, um despite the static you may have heard, I think you'll receive few historic preservation applications that
have had this much exposure and support. And I'm not just talking about letters or public comment. I'm referring to which we've mastered hundreds of times over more than a dozen public meetings of all
kinds. But in 2021, 3,000 residents of the town of Ammeris voted in favor of the project. year of which this is part um unheard of 65% of those who voted. It's in addition to the something like
600 families who've already contributed to it. So this is the project that comes with a huge amount of public support. Ammerst wants this project. Um I think a few third a few historic preservation
projects have this kind of extraordinary visibility. If you're interested in funding something that's going to be present to literally hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis, uh that will help demonstrate the value of historic preservation, I don't think
you'll find a project that's serves that purpose better. Um, fourth, the project is not only shovel ready, it's started. Um, and it's been prescribed within an inch of its life down to the most minute detail, including a schedule. Uh, what
you're going to fund is what you've seen, what we're presenting for you to fund is what's going to what you're going to get with this project. Um, fifth. Yes, this is a large amount we're asking for, but this is a large project. And it's because it's a large it's it is
a large ask because historic preservation is expensive. We understand that it would have been a lot less expensive for us to tear the building down and start over from scratch. But this project is devoted to historic preservation and we're spending
a lot of money to preserve some important historic assets of the town that are really important to it. And so we hope u you'll help us do that. And sixth, um
finally, we're making a monumental effort to keep the town's commitment to this project that it what what was started out actually seven years ago, $15.8 million by raising what has continued to be an escalated amount because of inflation and then the
withdrawal of the DOA's withdrawal of our million-doll NE grant. Uh we're more than halfway there, but we need all the help we can get. And you should know that we're doing that so that we don't ask more from you more than a small
fraction of the cost of what we're planning to do in the way of historic preservation here. Um so unless anybody has any questions for me right away, why don't we turn the screen over to Jim and Josephine to show
you what we're talking about here. Right. Right. >> Thank you, Ken. Share my screen. >> Can everybody see that? >> Yeah, I just There we go.
You want to go to the enlarge element? Can everyone hear me? All right. >> Yeah, we can hear each other. >> Great. Great. Well, I think Ken has summed up a lot of the discussion very nicely and I think that's important. I think the three things we just want to
show you a little more that are important deal with the interior mill work, exterior trim and repair and the windows themselves. One of the aspects of the mill work and we'll start with that is to really because we have to
make certain changes obviously in the interior uh to satisfy the requirements of a contemporary library program. Uh so making those changes, one of the things that we are now going to do is retain a
number of trim pieces, some of which are kind of a rare Philippine mahogany, but all of which have a very nice sense of detail for the entire uh original library building. Um, and as part of the memorandum of understanding, we are now
going to be keeping parts, some of which originally we were maybe not going to keep just in the interest of cost. So, you'll see the first item on the left you well, of course, with the Whipple window we're keeping and relocating. So, that that will be part of the uh
interior trying to again maintain the consistency of the detailing inside of the rooms, some of which will be somewhat changed. So the window will be kept and relocated. You see then a very elaborate surround around the doorway
and the entries to one of the rooms in the library itself. Um this will also be kept and relocated. Of course the main feature which is significant in setting up the detail is the interior of a main stair. So all of the main stair, the
ballastrade, the trim, all of that will be kept in place which really sets the tone I think for the interior. So in terms of preservation uh and restoring and keeping these elements, this is absolutely critical I think as part of
the historic fabric. There smaller areas which you see with the other sketches, the very handsome pilasters on the sides of these entranceways, the arch, the transom windows. All of these things are really critical to maintaining this kind
of historic character. Even if some of the rooms are somewhat changed, remember the majority of the woodwork that's existing is being kept anyway. That was part of the original plan. These added elements come from the desire to really
make the interiors feel consistent as requested by the MOA and Mass Historic and was Amherst Historic as well. You see two other elements, one of the this bookcase area along the wall on the uh another room there. Another sense of
very nice detailing the entrance way, another one of the arched entranceways. Again, you see that's setting up a theme which will carry out through the building and then you have this very one with the exit sign with a very elaborate intabe over it. So again setting up
these framed entrances to different rooms and different spaces. Even though the rooms may be somewhat changed, we have a real chance here through some fairly, you know, expensive relocating and reusing to maintain a consistency throughout the interior of the original
building. That's pretty much the interior aspects. the exterior trim. Again, we're dealing with, you know, some very complicated elements at the entry on the entry pilasters,
side pilasters, a number of places. You see these very elaborate sense of detail. This all now really has to be stripped carefully back to the original wood, refinished, repaired. In many cases, some places we will have to introduce um what we call a Dutchman,
which is a repair in place, a new piece added which will match exactly the original. The main entry we do have to make in the instrument of accessibility some small changes to this, but basically I think most people will think it's exactly what was there. The base of
the pilasters will be extended um so that we can actually make an accessible entrance at the main entry. But the elaborate detail, the pineapple, the wonderful scroll work at the top, all of
that will be restored, repainted, refinished, and will look like new. And same with another one of the entry capitals. And you see around the windows, um, we are replacing the windows with a great deal of window trim. Some sill pieces will have to be
patched and matched, uh, to the existing, which will be done throughout the historic building. And then we have these special cases, the small extensions on the side again that are deteriorating. In some cases, pieces will be replaced entirely to match the
existing. And again you see the window the window heads and the extension on the sophets uh which is in very bad condition which will have to be replaced. And then the last item of course was the windows. Um windows originally in the
original program were going to simply be kept and that was often desirable to keep an existing piece of fabric. um in looking at them more carefully and also meeting with the mass historic um I think everyone agreed the windows were
in such shape that energy-wise efficiency it would just be rather foolish to keep those existing windows and storm windows which is a very awkward situation. So in terms of preservation of the window, we're installing completely new windows
matching the proportions, the the outline, the mullions, the mtonons, all of which will match the existing as well as its location on the facade in terms of its depth from the facade and the depth of the sill and the interior. So
again, new all new windows which is a major upgrade as part of the the mass historic theou mass the un memorandum of understanding and is going to really turn the building is is going to really really benefit from getting rid of the
storm windows and having a real insulated glass window matching the original. So those are the I think three basic things that we are talking about as we ask you for your support in completing this exciting preservation
project and it has been about seven years and it's exciting that it's actually going to happen now and this extra bit of intention will help us I think to make the feeling of the library when it's finished the feeling of the original building very compatible
throughout. So, thank you. >> Thank you, Jim. Just this is Katie just noting that I don't know if we're um if if anyone else is speaking, but we are sort of at the 12 minute mark and I want to make sure that we No, no, I just want to make sure that we have enough time
for questions as I'm anticipating them. But are there other um any other parts of the present? I don't want to cut you off in any way. Just >> No, no. This is this >> noting the time. >> This is fine. I think we I think we've covered it. happy to answer any questions if there
>> Okay, great. Oh, awesome. Okay, terrific. I thought there might be more. So, that I really appreciate the um the presentation and the thorough approach that you all have brought to this. Um I think we may need to go back to the
slides, but um Lena, if we could go back to um the gallery view just so we can ask questions, that would be great. If we need to go back to slides, we will. I don't think so. >> Or did you Jim, did you have others
slides? Okay. All right. Great. >> Okay. Well, I will open up to the committee for their questions and we'll start with Jonas. >> Uh, hi there. I I noticed um I was I was browsing the um the application that's on the website. I thought I saw
something about slate roof. Was that not part of this ask? No, that that is not part of the ask. We have built that into the basic budget even though it put quite a strain on us because originally we had thought we would not
have the original put original slate back but part of the memorandum with mass historic is requires the slate to be restored and we will be doing that. >> Okay. And then just one question on like looking at any ways to you know
economize uh you mentioned the windows are going to be kind of recreated even down to the detail of what like the panes and the is is that adding a lot of expense because I my I wonder if someone who was not who um was not um aware of
this building a visitor to the town would notice a difference between uh you know the window is going to be new, >> right? >> How much is it? How important is it that that all those details be kept for the uninformed who just would look at that window and say, "Wow, a beautiful
window. It looks perfect." And it cost half of maybe what the window you're proposing. In fact, we sort of had started out thinking we might be able to well actually the first star was to repair what's there, which you know is a
detriment in a way to when you look at the building and you see these storm windows on the outside which sort of obscures the real detail of the window that is is a problem. And uh when we got into really working on this, the Mass Historic Commission and others decided
we really needed to and energy-wise too because the windows trying to repair and add weather stripping and all of that is never going to make a window like a new insulated double glazed window. So while the public might not see it, I think in
terms of the historic character of the building, uh, Mass Historic was concerned that we really needed to replace those windows. So >> understand need to replace them, but >> do they need to be replaced? >> Oh, detail of of the historic and that
that to me I don't. >> Yeah. In the memorandum of understanding, it's yes, if we replace them, they have to match the original 1920s windows. I mean, that's part of the regulation of theirs. >> I thought maybe there was an exception like for with economic if it was
economically infeasible, but another panelist said that I'm not an expert on historic preservation, but that was >> Yeah. No, I'm afraid we we're kind of up against it as far as I know at this point. There's, you know, we've tried, you know, the contractors were shopping around to find who can pay or make these
windows. They're not a huge amount of people who can. So that we're kind of tight with we're stuck kind of with the budget, I'm afraid. >> Thanks, Jonas. Ken, did you want to add to that particular part of the >> Yes. Just quickly, they would the slate
roof would have been a normal subject of the application except that you have a requirement that the work can't be started by July 1 and they're working on the roof already. And the and the replacement of the windows was insisted upon by the Ammeris
Historical Commission >> as well. >> Was a major major item of um request. Thank you, Bob. >> Uh, is it imperative that you use
Philippine mahogany? >> No. No. That there is Philippine mahogany on the interior now and we'll be matching, you know, new some of the replacement pieces will match and stain that, but we'll not have to use the
actual wood though. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Uh Jason, >> hi. Thank you everybody for the presentation. Um one of the questions previously asked, you know, in the initial question asking round was about
the work being part of the initial 46.1 million budget and the answer was that it was um it's not separate from the capital campaign. Can you explain that? Um,
can you explain the rationale behind asking for more town money than what was already borrowed? And then it sounds like some of these expenses were discovered, came up after the fact.
Were these things not known when the initial capital campaign started? Um, so how are they not included? It says they're included, but you're asking for money from the town. How did that how did it work out that way?
>> Well, should I do you want to take this, Kent, or >> There's two questions there. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm not I'm not clear what the questions are. Yes. Um the $46 million budget requires us to raise roughly $15 million.
And we're looking at all the available sources. And yes, that's in addition to the town's general revenue contribution of 15 million, but that's completely separate and different from what you're
what you have available. That is getting more money from the town would raise people's taxes. competing for the funds you have available does not whether you give us a grant or not doesn't change people's
taxes. Um so and the we have to raise this money and um your grant making process is available to anybody who has a project that qualifies like any other grant maker foundation or otherwise has
money available. So, we've applied on that basis. I'm not sure that answers your question, but at best I understand it. Um, I think the other question was around whether these particular expenses
were known or unknown at the time. Is that right, Jason? At the time of creating the project. Yeah, I've heard a statement about, you know, the originally the slate roof wasn't going to be original and then the windows were going to be saved, but now they can't
be. Ammerst >> Historical Society wants to say. So, were these things not hashed out? Uh, it's it seems like they weren't hashed out and I'm just looking for confirmation of that. prior to the budget being set.
>> Some of them were hashed out, but a few developed afterwards as a result of a lengthy deliberation process with the Mass Historic Commission. But we've been able to cover, we think we can cover those expense, those additional expenses
with a contingency in built into the original $46 million budget. that that's how we arrive at the amount we have to raise includes a contingency that that we expect to cover not only
those items that were added as a result of that lengthy regulatory process but also are discovered as you go into a almost 100-y old building and find what you find >> I think at the moment and Sharon can talk about this is and Bob Parent in
particularly part of the building committee We think it looks like that we can stay within that $46 million budget, but we have to raise the balance beyond what the 15.8 million committed by the town and the 15.8 million committed by the Mass Board
of Library Commissioners. >> Thank you, Ken. And I just just to underscore um uh Jason's question about we don't have um any thing in our criteria or guidelines that say that you can't come
you know that an entity couldn't come and and request money even if they've received money or can't request it each year like the town could request and others request money um frequently. So we don't have that criteria at the
moment or in the guidelines. Just to underscore and we're we're a little over but Ellen, I would love to entertain your question. >> Oh, thank you. Um, a quick question. I know several museums um have had their
NEA and NEH grants fully um replaced or um you know reinstated. So, I'm wondering if any effort has been made uh to get your NE if you've appealed at all to try to get that fun that million dollar funding back.
>> Unfortunately, we were at the stage where the letter stated directly there is no appeal. Um we we had we had received notification of the award, but no agreement had been signed. In part that
was because the historic preservation review hadn't been completed. But there was no possibility of review. That doesn't mean that we don't hope somewhere down the line with a new administration uh to get this money after all because
we went through a very lengthy process and this is a national competition in which we receive the largest grant. Um but at the moment there is no prospect of appeal. Okay, great. Jonas,
>> just one point of clarification. I think >> Yeah, it's you mentioned this has nothing to do with taxes, but um I believe CPAC comes from a local property tax sarge and I I don't remember the money the number, but I think a big proportion is
that and that the state proportion is the matching is is not as big. So it's not coming from So if I'm a homeowner and also probably I guess if I'm a landlord I'm probably passing that tax or charge to my tenants. So it's not obviously free money. So just a >> it's definitely from our taxes this
money but it's not an increase in tax if we were to >> not an increase but >> it >> it was early on. Yeah. >> It's it's a tax. So >> yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely right. Yep. Um
great. Well, we are at time, but Sharon, you had your hand up and I didn't know if you had anything else to add. I'm happy to give you the final word. >> Oh, that's very nice. Uh, no, you know, I was Yeah, so much going on in my head. You know, at at the end of the day, this
project is it's $46.1 million. Uh, and and the contingency was reduced when we had to add more money for historic preservation. And that is awesome. I mean, I what what Kent said in the in the be his opening statement about how
important historic preservation is to this project, it can't be it can't be overstated. And so the 106 process did what it was supposed to do. It involved the community and we got more out of it because of it. And the more out of it
means it's going to be more expensive. And so this is a capital campaign request uh because we do have to raise another $7 million um and and we are going to be asking everybody and their brother including
all of you in this Zoom room please donate um and um I don't know it's you know one of your criteria had to do with the number of people that will be you know that will benefit from this project hundreds and hundreds of thousands of
people will be walking through our doors already did walk through our doors and now that's going to double it. It's just that's what happens when libraries go through these expansion renovation building uh building projects and so it's going to you know add to the
downtown economy. It is and it's happening. This isn't a whether or not it's going to happen. It is happening right now and we're just we're excited about it and and yes, as Jim said, we hope for your support. Thank you guys.
Well, thank you all. Thank you Sharon. Thank you um Jim and Josephine and Kent. Appreciate um all of you being here and appreciate your time u putting this presentation together. >> Great.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you. Um all right. So onward to um the industrial history of the Mil River proposal which is the recreation
uh is under recreation and I am not sure who is is that Brian? >> I think it's Brian. I'm going to let him in and then remove everyone else. >> Okay, great. Thanks. and Robin. Just to note that Robin is back. Okay, Brian, are you the the Greetings?
Welcome. Are you the sole presenter for this project? >> Well, we have Margaret Orla out there somewhere. I think she was coming in on >> Oh, yeah. Margaret, I see her there. She had said that. She came in on an unmarked iPad earlier and I think about it.
>> She's she's back now with the name. >> I see her. >> And we would also have expected to have Meg Gage with us tonight. Meg is the president of the district one neighborhood association and one of the organizers of this from the beginning, but she had her hip replaced a few hours
ago. So we are not expecting her to join us, but we will we will be happy to carry on. >> Thank you. well, wishing her a speedy recovery. And it looks like >> it looks like Margaret is in the room.
Um, and so we'll just, >> as I mentioned earlier, thank you for your patience, too. I know we're a little bit later than we anticipated, but if you keep the presentation, you know, in the five to seven, eight, nine
minute range, then we'll have chance for questions after from the committee members. >> Yeah. And and I know we're occupying theoretically two slots here for the two different proposals. We've consolidated this presentation for the two of them. So we can do that and >> Okay. You're presenting for both.
>> For both. Yeah. Does that make sense? >> I didn't realize that. Got it. Okay. Great. Well, that's helpful. So your presentation is for both. >> Yes. >> Well, would it be all right to do one and then have questions and then do the next one in or No. Well, the
presentation is going to be background for both of them, so we didn't want to be redundant. So, we're >> Got it. Okay. >> So, we'll get to the end of that and there'll be lots of lots of question. Okay. All right. Thank you, Go right ahead. >> Um, and and by the and Margaret is our
consulting historian on this project has been since the last year or so. Been doing a wonderful job and we would not be here without her. Um, let me switch to screen sharing here and see where this puts us.
Hold on. Get this to start getting rid of Zoom. Don't need here. Okay. Where do you see that? Are we on the air?
Yes. Okay. So because not everybody lives in North Ammeris, I just wanted to give a quick recon orderer of what we're talking about here. So here's North Amoris, you know, over here is the corner where the church and the uh school and so forth
are down here. Here's Puffer Pond and then up here is Bridge Street going across. So it's really the Mil River comes in at the corner by Lever and goes out into Hadley and really cuts across the whole of North. And here's the system of trails that
conservation trails that the town operates. All this light green stuff is the conservation land. And over here we have the Mil River recreation area. So you can see that this whole corridor is basically conservation and recreation area. Um and there's not much else in
there right now. Um which um is sort of the rationale for what's going on here. It was not always like this. Uh for quite a long period of time, this area was known as Factory Hollow. And this
map happens to be from 1856. But you can see there's already a lot going on here. Up by the bridge, a very active location. There was um uh there were a series of of of different mills early on, grist mills and so forth that went
on to become all kinds of industrial facilities. And in fact, that spot right there, if that yellow star is showing, turns out to be one of the busiest spots in this entire area. Then down the river, you had paper mills, some of Robert's paper mills in that area between Puffers and
the bridge. And then right below Puffers, there was a very intensive area of industrial activity. And even all the way down on this is just about where Meadow Street comes into the 116 bypass. And you wouldn't know it today, but that
was at one time another industrial area. So this this was is currently a very bucolic spot but was a beehive of activity for a long time. And here's 1873. You can see it all again this big area down below a reservoir which or a
mill pond that no longer exists but for was there for many many years and rivaled puffers pond inside. That was the Jones or the Kushner mil pond. Then you have puffers and all that activity below there and again back o over what was called westville. So this area which
is now very very quiet and calm was once extremely busy. By the way you may notice they show here the Massachusetts Central Railroad going across right in front of the bridge the dam at Puffers Pond which of course it doesn't. This was an interesting feature that we
discovered because they were going to build this railroad and then um never did but it got onto the map. This all began way back. This is the earliest map of Ammer 1794. And at that time um the river ran
through here. There were very few roads. So this is sort of Pine Street sort of going up to Market Hill, but there were two grist mills. That was it along the river. The first one is probably there from 1727. This is an agricultural community. But this all got started for us because you
know some of us in living up in North Ammeris took an interest in some of the ruling foundations that we saw and Dona the district one neighborhood association organized the project and we got two earlier exploratory CPA grants. I don't know maybe Bob maybe you were
involved way back at the beginning. Um we had those in fiscal year 23 and 24. And we've also done quite a bit of private fundraising. And on the strength of that, here's what we found. We got interested because you walk along the brid, you walk along the trail up
here just north of Puff or east of Puffers and you look over the edge and you see some stuff, some something was obviously there. Um because of our first round of research, we've discovered that stuff is what we call the Robert's Lower
Mill. That was actually the Daniel Rose paper mill. Those stones were set in 1795 and there was a paper mill there for a long period of time using rag paper. You keep going up the river a little bit and you'll see yet another something or
other which turned out to be another Robert's mill. This is the Robert's Upper Mill, a much more substantial operation that operated for a long time also. But that's about all there is left to see, right? This is not an area that has a lot of ruins or foundations or
stuff you can see. And yet the activity was there. And three years later now we found this is sort of the the situation we're in far more than we ever anticipated. We're now trying to make what we found available to the community. And to do that we've got the
two sections of this. The first project is to complete the historical survey. And that means putting together all of this evidence that we found, again, far more than we ever anticipated. And then on the basis of that, sharing with the community uh through a website
and trail project as you go along that beautiful corridor of currently preserved town controlled land. So in the first survey, this is all we were looking at. All we knew about were these two little paper mills up here and the uh you know, the gist mill that's on
Monagy Road that's still there. had a sign on it. Uh that's what we knew about and that's what we looked at. But in the second survey, we discovered we knew there would have been an ice business at Pepper's Pond and we knew that there had been some sort of paper factory activity up here by the bridge.
And so that's what the original CPA money got us going to look at this. But in the process of looking at all of this, we found a few more things. I'm gonna let that sink in because it's it's sort of mindboggling. But this was
an area that had between 1727 and 1920 there are 18 locations where mills or factories are constructed at least 26 different structures and 69 different businesses. They did everything from grinding grain to fabricating wood
products and paper making and textile production. This is a story that we hear bits and pieces of but no one has actually ever told it in its entirety and we now believe we've completed the research necessary to tell that story. I just want to give you one example of one
of those locations because not only are there a lot of them in space and a lot of them over time but each one of those sites went through various iterations. This place right here started out as a cotton mill. Then it became a paper mill and then it was a woodworking and
planing mill for many many years. Uh in fact here it is the graves they made doors and moldings and boxes. So it wasn't just an old sawmill. Um and here it is right here. That is the last of the factory hollow mills. This burned in
1940. This is on summer street. Um you can see why we don't have a lot of these buildings up there. So many of them are wood. So as we look here it means we had these things scattered all over the landscape uh across time and across industries.
This is one of this is something we put together just to allow ourselves to figure out what's going on. And this is organized by the industries. So you can see at the top we had the agricultural uh activities like grist mills and sawmills. And then down here we begin to see the
more industrial stuff. Here's the paper. Here are the textiles. Down here's the the the wood planing operations. And if you kind of simplify that, we began to see certain questions emerging. We began to looking for patterns here. And you can see there's
some different things going on. So one question we asked was kind of simple. For example, why did a farmer with no business experience build a cotton factory in the wilderness? And I mean the wilderness. This is an 1830 map. And
even at that time, there was nothing but a couple of grist mills and one of those paper mills. And yet this was the Ebenezer Dickinson cotton factory constructed right there below Puffer Pond. It was a It wasn't as big as Puffer Pond as this map would show and
it wasn't lying on its side, but it was 80 feet by 30 feet, three stories high. It was a substantial substantial edifice. Why was something like that there to begin with? This is the beginning of the industrial era on the river. And the answer of course is very
simple. It was Napoleon by which we mean this was the period of the Napoleonic wars, the global conflict between Great Britain and France. Great Britain in order to keep its fleet staff would impress US citizens and make them
sailors in the Royal Navy. You probably all learned that in high school and that was a big deal. And the United States at that time had only six warships and couldn't exactly um complain militarily. But they did put in place the 1806 non-importation act and especially the
1807 Embargo Act which stopped the importation of European manufactured goods to the United States. And what this did was create overnight a demand for a domestic textile manufacturing business. And so although
we can't be certain that this is why he was doing it, it seems quite likely that Ebenezer Dickinson like people all over New England started to go into the cotton factory business because of this outside force. So it's a fascinating thing to look at. Another question, how
did this paper industry survive and prosper for so long? 130 years made paper mills along the river. This is the one we looked at a minute ago, the earliest one. This was the Kushman Old Mill way up on East Lebert Road. This is the Kushman Red Mill which
was right at the corner of State Street and um Bridge Street where that yellow star was earlier. This was a big operation that was there for many many years. One of the ways they did it is that the paper industry in our neck of the woods didn't try to compete on with
bulk wood pulp paper coming out in rolls. It was all specialty. Every bit of paper made in Ammerst in North Amoris was a niche. So in this particular case they would do leather board made grinding up leather and rope and who knows what or straw board straw
and they would make uh leather board that was used as insoles and they would make wrapping paper out of the straw board. This believe it or not was on the same spot. This is taken about 1930. And that
is the amorest waxed paper mural. which was uh actually operated out of Hoyoko. They came up and bought these old paper mills and converted them. And down here is the Hoyoko carbon paper company. So this is this is the interesting story of paper making in
Ammeris being unlike really almost anywhere else. And if textiles came in, they rose and fall in just a few decades even though paper went on for so long. And so this really puzzled us why the sudden activity then fell
apart and quickly after the treaty of Gent was signed and European textiles came back in. So nobody built more textile factories here. Then there was the panic of 1837 and the businesses that we had were
actually they failed several times still limping along. But then the economic recovery after that the gold rush of 49 threw capital into the American economy. the railroad bubble. And look, all of these uh these textile factories were built on our river as part of this
larger national economic context. Unfortunately, the panic of 87 came along. The railroad bubble burst, the high inflation from gold rush took its toll and our places all closed. By the time
the civil war came along and places like Lawrence and l were really taking off in terms of textiles, we were done. A hammer was done. And so, so we finally come to the big question. Why did this all disappear? Not just economically, but where there's
nothing left. But so part of it is the river was just too small, limited and seasonal flow. The capacity was very quickly exploited. Transportation was a problem. It was not navigable. There are few nearby marage and supply chains. And the railroad
didn't come to North Ammeris till 1866. And at that point, it was all over. And the competition of these larger places on bigger rivers with better transportation, we simply couldn't compete with them. And the fact that we were not making pulp paper or highv
value textiles really undercut the competitive possibilities of our places, but also fire and a little flood. Here's here's the 1809 Dickinson Cotton
Mill. Um he put it in there. He didn't know what he was doing. Within a few years, he was bankrupt. His competitors were circling. Uh he decided to skip town. Uh but he decided he would take with him the proceeds of the factory. But word got out. The constable went to
his house and in the attic, found all the cotton yarn that he'd taken out of the factory. So the iron stayed, Ebenezer Dickinson did skip town and went to Ohio. But as he left, he uttered a violent curse on Factory
Hollow and all the mills to come. Now, did do we believe this? tried to say, but it is a fact that shortly thereafter his own building burned and then Peter Ingram's Fulling Mill burned and then the building that his predators had
built to replace the one that burned also burned and then over an extended period of time the mills of North Ammerst went up in its flames. Now, in addition to that, there was we
should note there was one flood. The Hills palm hat factory got wiped out and the pressure of 1863. But this is one of the reasons that we do not see much left of any of these things except a few stone foundations.
It's an it's a fascinating story. These are just a few of the questions that have come up and we found that the community is quite interesting. We've uh had progress reports in the local local press that people have been reading. um did a a big presentation at the Amish
History Historical Society History Bites. More people have watched the video. Did a presentation recently at Applewood did a guided walking tour along the trail just back a couple of weeks ago. Uh people love this story and it's a fascinating story.
uh in order to tell it, we're trying to get the funding to bring it all together. And that is the first proposal to create the archive and the second to develop the trail on the website. And for that, we're hoping to get additional CPA funding and also to
continue our private fundraising. And we bring this is not just a asking for a handout. We're actually bringing a lot to the table with this. Certainly hundreds of hours of volunteer effort have already gone in and will continue. We've got great partnerships we've developed with the Amish Historical
Society and the Jones Library Special Collection and families like Bar the Puffers, Barbara Puffer has been terrific on this and again private fundraising. Uh we've raised about onethird of total funding so far. Just want to point out that um this is
an entirely communitydriven project, right? Just a bunch of people in the neighborhood. And uh it's it's kind of nice that this is something that CPA has been able to support and we hope will continue to be able to support. Um that some of these projects that just sort of come up from interested people in the
community. And finally that there's just a ton of tangible assets that come out of this. One is the trail project itself. Um when we talk about the historical survey what we mean is this entire historical record that we've dug up will become available to the town to the
world actually on digital ammeris which is the Jones library special collections online resource and they're very excited about it. Um Robin had uh asked us at the historical commission uh meeting about whether we could be helping to
populate MAC which is the Massachusetts cultural resource information system. That's where the material on these historic things get that's loaded up by the state and the answer is absolutely. Uh I just went and reviewed recently what's out there on Ammeris now and not
only we have more by far than you're going to find on North Ammeris right now but there's some things that are out there now I would not say completely fit the facts. So yes, uh foundation for follow-on projects, school curricula.
We're introducing a few ideas here that other community groups may want to extend and potentially even a model for other neighborhoods. We run into people in other parts of town who would like to do a project like this. It'd be great to show kind of the possibilities. So the
last thing I will say is although this is fascinating to us, we're also trying to make progress on some of the town's already stated goals. The master plan talks about promoting the preservation, appreciation and use of our historic and cultural resources,
wayfinding systems and signage to mark historic districts. uh developing outreach tools, tours, print publications, websites to disseminate knowledge of amorous history among the public. So these are community goals we're trying to support and specifically the open space and
recreation plan. Talks about developing and improving the network of trails between neighborhoods, conservation, recreation lands and commercial areas to mark historic districts. support historical and archaeological preservation and education efforts and
strategic connections between open space parks, recreation areas, village centers, and to create con connections for the center of North Ammeris to the Mil River recreation area. It's it's almost as if we had written this, but we didn't. and to promote broadened awareness of open space and recreational opportunities and
explore public outreach and education opportunities and even update mapping and make it available. And I should point out that from the very beginning, we've been using the base mapping we got from Aaron Jacques in the planning office so that everything we're doing
can be easily incorporated into the town's GIS and mapping systems. So again, what we need more than anything is to keep the momentum going. It's taken three years to uncover the story, but you know, it is difficult to sustain
volunteer effort. Private donors need to feel that their investment is wise, that it's going somewhere. And honestly, you know, if we walk away now, we're concerned that this will never really rekindle. So, we're here, we know this is a terrible year to be coming. Um, but
we are hopeful that you'll be able to do something for us and we are eager to hear what you have to say. Thank you. Great. Thank you, Brian. I appreciate um the thorough presentation um and all the info and all the work
that you and others have been doing for so many years. I've um been part of those two other grants and um you've come a long way. I mean, it's amazing what you've what you've done. So, thank you. Um we're we'll entertain questions
on either proposal now. We have a few minutes. So either one. Um and we will start with Robin. Okay. I'm going to start right in on the um survey part of the project. Um I want
to start off by saying um like what an incredible project this is. Um, we saw it as the historical commission as well. Um, as a fan of historic maps, I can't I just love seeing historical maps.
Um, but I'm going to bring that's going to bring back um sort of the two issues that a historical commission rep um and and after many years on the CPA um trying to figure out. So, we have
history and we have preservation. And because something has history doesn't mean it's preservation. But, um, as I've learned over the course of time at CPA, studies to help the town manage its historic resources are considered an
important part of historic preservation. So I think that we can make an argument for um the research that's listed under this project as long as it results in a product like a report to the town. Uh we talked about macros um inventory forms.
Those would generally be for exit buildings, buildings that are still here on the landscape or possibly ruins. I'm not as familiar with ruins and also um structures. structures can also be documented. But anything that no longer exists on the on the physical landscape
if and if it's below as well as if it's below ground don't fall under the macro system. So I'm not sure how many resources that that is. Um and then um I know there was uh there are line items
for um they fall under the term exhibits which I had initially said well that's not that's not an eligible activity but it sounds more like the curation of a digital archive which I think uh if we're talking about historic photographs and newspapers um that could definitely fall under the
preservation of of uh documentary materials. >> Um archaeology is a little bit different. I know from, you know, I've only been at MHC for a couple years, but I know that the archaeology department is quite separate. Um, so I'm not sure about that. I mean, I know that
everything before us, the opinion of the town is that it's eligible. I would say that the second issue that um that we talked about is the budget. And um I know that Brian, I looked again at the
answers to your questions and um there's some discussion of a a $75 an hour fee for the historian. Um but $125,000 is a very large ask. And um to give a comparative example, I
work in the survey and planning department at MHC and um a project of 140 resources researched from start to finish with resulting inventory forms runs about $40,000.
So there's a big difference there. So I think um those are my I don't know know that they're questions so much. Well, the the the number of existing um resources is one question, but um
concerns around what we're funding, how we make it, how we get how we as a committee get a sense. You know, if somebody comes before us to replace a slate roof, you get uh estimates from three different roofers. you know, they fall within um
>> a certain but to get a sense of what it would what the pro what the products are are what you could expect um to them to cost different historic preservation consultants. I think those are the the thoughts and concerns that I have for this project which is so fabulous. Let's
have to say it again. So fabulous. >> Can I just make a couple of thoughts because we have talked about this before. Um the what again what's I think should be evident to all by now is how surprised we were
to discover how big the body of information really was. And so honestly we priced this based on on our best judgment based on our experience over these last three years what it would take to do this whole thing correctly up to uh uh industry standards to make it
available to the town for the future. so that so that this resource this historical resource which currently exists in boxes and you know people's heads and so forth would actually be available and you're right Robin I cannot disagree with you it's a lot of
money and it's a lot of work obviously uh the time will come when we have to think about what we can do with the funds that we do have available right how much of this stuff can be mounted in the way that we hope to mount it you can always there's two ways that you can you
We all face this problem. There's two ways you can control these costs. You can you can squeeze the amount of what you do and you can expand it over time. And you know, and we're quite open to both of those things. We just wanted to begin by being quite candid about what it looks like to kind of get the this
this project to where we think it could and ought to be um in whatever means we can do. Um I wanted to add um Robin to your to your question um about the resources have to
be above ground um for the macros editions. I assume that we would be adding to the district nominations um and in inventory sheets for North Ammerst and Kushman because um a number of the mill owners, the paper mill
owners particularly u but also um Peter Ingram, a textile mill owner. Anyway, a number of the buildings in Kushman and North Ammerst were the homes of the mill owners. Um so we can definitely add to those inventory sheets and in addition
we can make the um historical synopsis in the nominations much fuller. These mills were an important part of the transition of the economy of North Ammerston Kushman from a barter based on you know I'll trade you a butternut squash for that bowl of cloth. they were
an important part of the transition from barter to cash to using money and having one set price for goods. Um so in that sense they're they're an important piece. It's um no that just couldn't be included or was not included in the uh
district nomination. So my point is that we can we can add quite a lot because there are are above ground resources that are related to the the mills um which of course are no longer Yeah. Yeah. Actually, let me let me just piggyback on what Margaret had said
because I I just went and today looked at the uh Kushman Village National Register documentation and it's full of either little owner's homes or factory workers housing. It's full of these things and um there's very
little context actually in there and I was a little brain to discover that some of the context that is there I would not say under today's understanding is exactly correct. So I think there are a lot of ways in which this can you know really bolster the town's documentary record.
>> Um yeah abs I mean absolutely those are really great points that you're not just um documenting single buildings but you and you're absolutely right. One of the things that we um that we address at MHC is the need to update inventory forms because the standards in 1985 were about
four sentences and the standards now are about two to three pages minimum. Right. >> Yeah. So I think from from and I don't know if I speak for my other committee members but from the the um what would be helpful for us to see is that list
the list of which macros forms >> impacted by the study because that would give us you know deliverable >> um and of course a narrative history and the and the cultural context for the would be another deliverable those are things that would be really useful. The other thing I wanted to ask is that um
do you have a >> you know to keep the momentum going? We'd ask this of other projects. Do you have sections of this that you think you know if if your if your uh reward award had to be limited would it be the digitizing of resources? Would it be the
updating of those macros forms? That sort of thing. >> Right. >> So I can I would think since we had this conversation earlier, we really been thinking about this. Let me just share something that kind of gets to this. Um, let me see if I can find it here.
So, in terms of the funding thing, we've been thinking about this in terms of this being a tight year and so forth and certainly carrying over some of this to the future to another CPA cycle or fundraising can happen. As we all know, one of the problems is that that means
the next we the money for the next CPA cycle wouldn't exist for another 18 months, which is certainly a factor in our thinking about momentum. But yeah, some of these things, as you just said, Robin, some of these things can be stretched out. You know, they they have a sort of logical sequence. Um, one
thing with the signage and the publications and so forth is one of those things. One thing I just want to mention, I don't have the answer, but I know Dave's on the line here. maybe he has a perspective. One of our uh strategies here is to try to piggyback or to integrate with the
the town signage project that has already got CPA funding and we don't want to delay what we're doing so long that we lose the ability to do that. I don't I don't know how to deal with that exactly, but it is a consideration and obviously we remain committed to fundraising. Um
but the CPA money is sort of what provides the stimulus for that. But I will say, you know, I'm taking this seriously. If you break down what we're asking for into the big categories, which is the documentation, the website, and the installation of the physical stuff, right? Yes. Some of these things
could be put in different places in this cycle. Um, as I said, the main issue is we would love to be able to launch this thing uh in the spring of 27, right? that that's a long time from now, but
probably the first time we'd be able to do it. It's just hard. It's hard to think about going another year beyond that. That's so far in the future. But yes, it could be done. And if it would be of help to the group, we could try to figure out
how to, you know, how to plot some of these costs across a different time frame. So, I just offer that. >> Thank you, Brian. Appreciate that. I um going to Bob next. >> Um Brian uh thanks that was really
fascinating stuff and um I'm sorry we don't have more time and we really are running very late here. Uh very quick question. Um what would be helpful I think for our group is to to use a bad
analogy here put a moat around this. what you've described is sort of a a Vietnam project and all the quagmire there's just so much information and sort of defining
how much it's going to take to complete this and what the CPAC ask might be in the future would be very helpful because it sounds somewhat boundless right now and I just want to make sure that >> the committee's uh purpose. It's not.
>> Yeah, absolutely. If you think it feels boundless to you, we should be sitting on this side of the camera. But the the the truth of it is that we we feel as if we've knocked down the historical research. You know, we now know what's there. So, there's a couple of natural boundaries here, Bob. One of them is
even though the river goes across the whole of the northern part of town, the trail doesn't. So we're going to be obviously a lot of the cost will be for signage and other things that are just in that central part which goes from about the bridge down to the grist. So you could follow that. So the other
thing is in terms of the extent to which this documentation occurs you know it when we can't tell every story fascinating though it may be. And so I think part of what we're doing here is trying to uh create enough hooks so that
people can come along in the future and pursue some of these things. We can introduce some ideas, but we are definitely, you're absolutely right, not going to be able to tell every story. >> Thank you. Um since we combined these two proposals and were sort of a
combined time of about 40 minutes, we still have five more minutes and it looks like we have two more questions for sure. So Tim, you are up. >> Thank you. Um, I'm missing the recreation piece. At the
beginning of the meeting, I think it was said that this project is going to be moved from historic preservation to recreation. In terms of our CPAC categories, >> there's there's two >> and I didn't hear any pardon me.
>> There's two projects. One is the trail. The trail. >> Well, one is 85,000 and one is 105. Which is which? >> The 85 is the first this the 105 is the historical survey. >> That's the survey.
>> Yes. And the 85 is the signage and the trail, you know, the sort of more physical part of it. >> Brian, is that 105 or 125? There's a typo in there some. >> Oh, yeah. I think uh right. Um I don't actually have it in front of me, but
yes, I think at our responses we pointed out that that was a typo. So, >> so it's 125. >> Yeah, it's it's what's in >> research. Yeah. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Okay. So, everything you talked about in your very fine presentation was not
recreation at all. It was all the historic survey. And I just don't understand I really don't understand what the 85,000 request is for recreation. >> Right. So this was the um this this is
the uh so this is so here's that area again right and you can see in the two ends the two um national or the two historic districts and so forth. So the the trail the trail
part of this the recreation part of this is passive recreation utilizing these trails. Um the website is what's in the background and in the foreground if you're actually physically there would be these kiosks and and QR uh markers. So these big stars, there's a few places
where we would have something substantial where you would have, you know, a larger guide to the project and you would have more information. And then right along the trail itself, the Com has been very concerned that they don't want, you know, super highways
going through there. They're not big on having big signs, but we can do this with very modest um you know, standards that allow you to point your phone at it and get the whole story coming at you as you go along. So, this is where a lot of the expense Tim you're talking about on
the recreation is it's in the website and all of these physical markers that are going to, you know, guide people through it. >> Okay. Because I think before we make our final decisions here, we need to understand how this is related to the
request from the town for their recreation conservation signs. >> Yes, >> that we are being requested and how they dovetail, who's asking for what, etc., etc. And I just need some clarity. Who does that? I'm not sure, but we need at
least I as one committee member need some clarity on that. So, We do too. We do too. And and we've been talking to Dave from the beginning, but >> All right. Fair enough. >> Well, I think what we'll do is we'll put that I'm going to put a pin on that to to get back to that, Tim, so that we'll
have that for the next >> We don't need to do that tonight. That's fine. >> Yeah. Great. Thank you for that question, though. That's We do need some clarity there. And uh Jason, you're you're up. >> Thanks, Katie. Thank you, Brian. Um,
somewhat related to what Tim was asking that Brian, you have that slide stating that you were wanting to launch, you know, in 27 >> and you have a website and um there was a number of things there. >> Yeah. What >> you want me to bring that back?
>> Uh, you can and you if you want to. Um, >> I launched my video so maybe I can't. Go ahead. >> What is it that when you say launch Um, what is it that you that you need to actually launch or that you think you need to launch it? Is it a full finished
website? >> Yeah. >> And all the signs with corresponding QR codes and the kiosk or what? >> Yeah. No, that's right. Because the the whole theory here is that the story itself will be on the web and the way
you get to it would be we're trying to limit the amount of physical signage and maximize the amount of uh material that's available on the web not only for the people who are there physically but for anybody anywhere who wants to get access to this story. So yes, it would
be both the website and the signage. Will there be signage in places other than along that trail and at those kiosks? For example, will there be a QR code associated with this project somewhere
in the new library? >> Oh, you mean you know downtown library? >> Yeah. So, you know, somebody might not if somebody's visiting or new to town or something like that. >> Yeah. >> May not know anything about North Ammerst, but find it
>> either at the library or somewhere else and want to visit. >> Right. So, very very brief. I know you're running out of time, but yeah, absolutely. Um, again, one of the reasons to make this webheavy is because I mean, I'm a trustee of the historical society. I hope certainly have a point of access
to this at the history center, the Jones, any place like that. You want to be able to get people into this whether they're up in the the frozen north or not. Yeah. >> And certainly at the North Amir Library, I would think. >> Yes. That's one of our kiosk locations, we hope.
>> Yes. >> Great. Jason, you you good with that? All right. And Jonas, last word. uh >> squeaking in. >> Just wondering um how much traffic is already on these trails. Is there a hope
that you're going to be drawing traffic to these trails? And that's that's the recreation angle of it that these signs will be kind of a build it and they will come effect. Um and then
uh yeah, so and the signs themselves like like you impart a lot of his a lot of information. So, I don't know. I guess you kind of talked about how the the balance of what the signs will be and >> how much text it will be versus
um yeah, I guess I guess the main question is do you how how could this not have the intended traction that you would like? And have you thought of that and like kind of incorporate that in you know
maximizing the impact that you have? Um, so that it's not just the signs are there and >> they're not seen. And >> yeah. >> Yeah. I think this also goes to Jason's point. Um, while the location is a location, right? And if you want to go
up there and walk the trail, you can. And that's the passive recreation part of this. We go up there a lot and we see a lot of people using it, but they're mostly walking their dogs. You know, there's things going on. We're hoping to get a model going here where there are other reasons to get out and utilize the
town's natural landscape. >> But that doesn't mean that we're not going to be trying to get people funneled into this through the schools, through the library, through other civic organizations because that's the beauty of it. It exists at a larger level as well as on the ground.
>> And so so there is there is good trail infrastructure there already. I'll never up there. Yeah. Okay. I think it's natural curriculum material as well for K through 12. Um, and I think potentially for the public history
program at UMass, I could see how they could really add on to this with perhaps a driving tour. Um, >> that of course would take you off the trail, but it would take you to the extent buildings and the historic districts. >> And I took two I took two dozen people,
you know, two and a half miles up and down this trail, and they had a great time. Great. Well, thank you. Thank you, um, Margaret and Brian. Really appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you for your presentation tonight and, um, answering
all our questions. >> Okay. Good luck. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thanks a lot. >> Take care. Happy >> Margaret. So, um, we have one more presentation,
but we unfortunately have, I don't believe anyone is here from Goodwin Church. We have done a lot of outreach. Um, I made phone calls this week. I've left messages. The town has left messages.
We've written to folks there. I know that they met with um the historic commission on October 20th. So, I know they were still interested in participating in um
the process. Uh but we just have not heard from anyone that they would be here. No, nothing to confirm and we don't I don't see anyone in attendance. Um, so there the
the CPA application doesn't state um crystal clearly that you are required to attend a presentation. Um, so I don't I don't think there's a
conversation here tonight about whether or not we would I think we have to deliberate uh next um next meeting about this. But um unfortunately we didn't receive um responses to our questions either. So we
don't have that additional information from the applicant. So it does, you know, put them at a disadvantage in that way. Um, but I they that doesn't, according to my reading of all of our application
and process, it doesn't make them ineligible. And if anyone else had wanted to discuss that, we can do that now or at the next meeting. Um
the the last agenda item is uh on anything I didn't anticipate, the chair did not anticipate at least 48 hours in advance. I don't have anything there, but I'm willing to take questions from the committee. Um and Ellen, your hand
was up first. >> Yes. Uh regarding the um Goodwin Church, you said they met with the historical commission. Yes. >> Answer questions. Could um maybe Leah could provide a link to that recording so we could at least see what some of
those question maybe it answered some of our questions and would help. Yep. We can Leah is nodding and I do have I do have a link too so you can we'll get that to you. >> Yeah, it would be helpful. Thank you.
>> Sure. >> Um and Bob, you had a question. Um, Ellen, I think that's a great idea. I was going to suggest we also to give them they put the application together that we go back and read that application again just to give it a fair
hearing in absence of a presenter. >> For sure. No, I I highly recommend that they're part of the deliberations. It just I just want to give some background that there um over the course of the last two months
we've had you know emails and voicemails and um even a a letter sent last week. So I want to make sure the committee understood that. >> You mean you've been trying to contact them or they contact us?
>> No, no, no. We we um both the town and Leah, other members of the town um staff, myself, we've all been doing outreach um LinkedIn, emails, phone numbers. I reviewed the proposal again. I found a new phone number a few days
ago. I called that number, left a message. So, we've been trying as, you know, everything we can. just wanted to make sure they had the the information and you know if they could be here or if they needed a different date or something but we just haven't heard back.
Other questions from the committee. Um any questions about uh preparation uh between now and the 15th that we didn't cover earlier? I will send out through Leah a you know kind of a just a
bulleted suggestion of things um to review and with the template and a at least a screenshot or something of the the large spreadsheet that we use during deliberation so you have a sense of how that feeds into that that part of the
process. Jonas, >> uh, where are the recordings? Uh, where can we access the recordings, the meeting recordings? >> So, I can I will receive a link tomorrow morning for this today's recording, and
I can email that to you directly, >> other ones as well. >> Well, I'm not I I just want to make sure I haven't been missing. Um, >> no, previous ones you can find on um on the CPA part of the town website. >> Okay. >> Yeah, there's there are links there.
Um, and I know Angus, you joined us a little bit later. I hope everyone's asleep. Okay, good. Um, but if you had We just We >> Are you talking about the committee members or uh >> No, in his household. That's
>> Oh, okay. >> Sorry, Tim. >> Um, no, we just reviewed, you know, just some of the things to do in preparation for the fifth to be able to deliberate on the 15th, which is um you'll see in the email like just getting your own
rankings put together in advance and having your notes ready to talk about why you are in favor of or against or have questions about. Yeah, Tim, >> yes. Uh I'm not sure whether you want we
want to discuss this today or before or as we begin next week's meeting on our preliminary uh decisions and opinions about each project. If I recall last year and years past, we would go to
committee member, say me, and I would then rank all the projects and go five, five, four, three, blah, blah, blah. As opposed to hearing everybody's ranking for each project at a time. It's a little
different. You know what I mean? Uh, and I would, for me, I find it helpful if we say, let's pick the first one. this Amity Street redevelopment project. Uh if we took that as a project and maybe it's more burdensome for us to just just
sort of do a roll call on each project and we just fill in the numbers that way rather than start with me and I go through all the projects and rank them. You know what I mean? It's a different way to doing it and we want to think about what's most helpful or not or
whether it makes any difference at all. I just felt it made a little more sense to me to rank each project at a time as opposed to here committee member at a time. So, let's think about that.
>> Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that. And I'm open to other suggestions either before then or at the meeting. Um, so thank you Dave. >> Yeah, thanks Katie. I was just going to
highlight um on the website and Lee and I spoke about this earlier today just the uh I I believe it's called the it's the 2021 I think it's called the strategic plan or or the CPA plan. I found that really helpful you know. Yes,
>> I I lived that, you know, I've been doing this for about 20 years with with various members of the CPA, but I read it today and I just found it a really good refresher on criteria and and and all of that. And, you know, it's it's a
quick read and I would just if you have time during the holidays before you make your rankings, um I think it's really interesting to read. And then, you know, again, if you're really glutton, um I also went on the um the CPA website, um
the the Mass CPA Coalition website. >> Again, that's a deeper dive, but it's very interesting just to read. You know, you can you can sort by town, you can do Ammerst projects. Uh you know, I often look at Ammerst and Northampton because,
you know, we're similar communities in in some ways. So, just to refresh my memory on kind of what what things were funded, but if you have a a quick second, I think that strategic plan is a a really good reminder and refresher on on uh the work of uh CPA committees, you
know, and and and ours in particular. That was some good work that a previous committee did here in Ammerst. Yeah, I um I think a couple of us were part of that and I will will include that as a link for folks because I have I refer to that all the time and it
isn't a long read and I know some of you have been have looked at it already but it's good to have and I appreciate the note around the state too because I've also dug into that and it can be very interesting. So thanks Dave for that
Angus. Uh Dave, that plan is the one from May 2021, correct? >> Yep. >> Okay, great. >> Yeah, that's the most recent you. It's, you know, I think the practice is to review it every five
years or something like that. So, um that could be on our docket at some point. But anyway, it's very it's totally worth looking through before you start looking at your notes and rankings. Yeah.
Great. Well, I would entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> So moved. >> Thank you. Second. >> I second. >> Thank you, Jason. And all those in favor just, you know, thumbs up.
>> And a happy holidays to everyone. And >> yes, >> thank you, Katie. >> Yeah. Thank you. Best wishes in the new year. will see you on January 15th. >> Thank you. Happy holiday. >> All right. Take care.
>> Thanks everyone.