Hi everyone. Thank you Athena. Um we have I believe Bernie is going to be absent today. He emailed me um that he couldn't make it, but everyone else is here. Um so I'll go through our roll
call to start the meeting and pull up the agenda um and the documents for us. Colin Center will not be joining us tonight. Um, and we'll touch on that later in the meeting. She's sitting there. Jason Justin Julian, she's here.
Oh, you are here. She's right there. Hi. Sorry. That's okay. You're magic. So, you'll have one more meeting. Do you want to give us the update of what happened on email?
Um, the Collins Center is contracted to attend five meetings and um we've been to three. Um so but it seems to be of some benefit for us to continue along on the charter. So we're attending this meeting. Um we're going to continue to provide support so you can go along and
go through the charter as we have been and um we'll talk more at a later time when we should come back. Um so we're here today and prepared to help go through article 5. Um and um we'll
definitely be around in the background and we'll be continuing to meet with the with the planning team and um working on some of these issues behind the scene. Perfect. Thank you so much. Um I'll now go around and take a roll call. Um I'm glad you spoke up uh because I didn't
see you there. Um Meg present. Myself. Hi. Raphael present. Andy here. Erica, I can hear. Marcus, here. Excellent. Um, Ken
here. Awesome. I think that's everybody. Um, Bernie won't be joining us today. I mentioned that. Um, I have the agenda pulled up here. Uh, so did we approve the May 22nd
meetings? I meeting minutes. I believe we did. Um, the last meeting. The last meeting I was writing them and I didn't do it yet. Okay, got it. Have you done them yet? No, I just said I didn't do them yet. Okay, got it. Um, no problem. I wasn't able. Yeah, I have to find time
to look at the video. Got it. And the I'll do it I'll do it very soon. No problem. And the June 5th meeting minutes has Did anyone That's the one I didn't do. Oh, okay. Um, did we approve the May 22nd ones?
I believe we did. I don't remember. I don't remember either. Um, so we they're not Nobody sent minutes for the packet, so I guess I'll move past that. Um, public comment. Uh, would anyone from the public like to make a
comment for three minutes? Um, raise your hand or press star 9 if you're on the telephone. I'm not seeing anybody. Um, so now we'll move on to the outreach and feedback subcommittee updates and um, the Collins
Center just gave an update, but if folks have any questions on that, we'll have some time for that. Um, and then we'll do article five. Uh, my idea is this for for this to take about 20 minutes in total. So plan accordingly. Um
do you want to give a update um on outreach Erica for sure? Okay. Yes, I can do that. So um on June 18th we held our first public listening session. Uh Raphael and I were sort of
designated facilitators but we also had Andy and Julian attend. Uh Meg was unable to attend the first one. Um, it was held at the bank's community center and we had done a publicity push, but we had some challenges getting
support from the communications office because uh they're great, but they were kind of overloaded with a lot of other town events. As a result, we had a small turnout, but we had a we had an interesting discussion nonetheless. Um, since four of us were actually there, I
won't do too much recapping, but um, Andy took some notes to summarize and maybe we can put those in the packet for the future for the next meeting as part of the minutes of this meeting or something. Um, we had a we had a good conversation
about some of the issues around um, the charter. Um, I don't want to take too much time in this update to to go through that. Um, but I will add to the update that I've done out I've reached out to Sam Gifins
um this week again to sort of make up another big push because Monday is our next session and I would like to take a moment to talk about facilitating that next meeting um and how we would like to handle that. Uh originally we had talked
about having a bit of rotation uh since the first public listening session was rather small. Um and the outreach committee has not had a chance to meet since then because of the short timeline. It's only been a week since then. Um so we haven't had an
opportunity to designate a new set of facilitators. So I want to put that to the committee for discussion and how we'd like to handle that. I've also been given a Zoom link for the third session um which is July 8th and I will be
posting that to our website and Sam will be posting it to the town website so it will be getting around. The last thing I'll add to this update is that um uh today I received some feedback from Sam about having a table at the farmers
market and how to how to set that up. I did some informal kind of flyer distribution at the market last um last week and at the Ammerst Pride event just informally handing out little copies of the flyer with the website on
it and a QR code and information with the dates. Um it would be great if we could uh um have we could distribute support on the the distribution front right of the
outreach among us and whether we do tableabling at the market or whether we do a little bit of flyer distribution I can make copies of the flyer available uh through Sam or um I know she's putting them up around town but it would be great if people can participate in
that process. process as well. So before I kind of hand over the end of the report, could we talk about the facilitation issue and how we'd like to handle that? Meg, go ahead. Could you say what the what
the facilitation issue is, but also I was collecting different outreach lists and I have seven or eight neighborhood email lists. If some if you could send me the uh flyer, the announcement, I could get that out to those
neighborhoods. Applewood South. Yeah, I can resent it. I sent it all before. Oh, okay. But I can resend it. No, I if it's all there, I'll do it.
Don't I just miss missed it. 18th. Okay. It's before the 18th. I don't know exactly. As soon as we get the version that has the Zoom link, that would be good. Mhm. The Zoom link will be on the website and the website is on the flyer. So,
I feel like um one one sort of constructive criticism if we were to put it out on like I think email list is great. Our sort of handing flyers out is
great, but I think I might have seen one little like reel on social media. Like we should be spamming social media if that's I Julian I agree. I there's not much I can do except hand them all the publicity material and it's when they're
when they're towngoverned sites it's up to the communications office and um I have asked for for that to be like reposted so it can come up to the top of the feed a little bit more you know fluidly. Um I agree with you. I I wish that we had a little bit more visibility
at this point. Okay. Thanks. If anyone else has other ideas, like if anybody is a a social media user, by all means, right? Repost the thing that the town has posted to your own um to your own networks that starts getting
Should we give Scott Murers called me a couple of times asking what's going on? Is this the time to give him a call? Let him know. I just keep saying we're not quite ready. I don't think it would hurt, but he did write it up in the paper. Um the problem up the day before that
he wrote an article um and he quoted I think he quoted from our he must have watched our meeting and and quoted from that um oh good get to talk to him directly but he did write an article prior to the June 18th meeting
basically in the in the print version anyway if he wants to write another article I think that might be helpful for our next listening session So go ahead and reach out to Yeah, I don't think it would hurt at all. Yeah, except it's Monday. Today's Thursday. So
yeah. Um I'd give it a try if you can. Um and then the only other thing is and I could also take this on myself. I don't know what the sort of policy or line we're going in is, but just shoot
over a quick email to the indie and the current. I have the contacts for Art and Allison and I'm sure they'd be happy to publish something. Yeah, I think it's a great idea. Yeah, send them the flyer so then then they can print it. And Anita's
watch. Anita's participating in the meeting. She could help us too. Yeah, absolutely. Anita, I know I think she published it last time. Um, but publish it again if you can. We really appreciate you covering this. Yeah, stories are great. As far as the
question about the the facilitation, um what is it fairly turnkey for for folks to do it? I mean, is it it I think that um the way that the Raphael and I had uh set it up was
uh well, the outreach committee had a meeting and Meg wasn't able to attend the actual session, but we all contributed to just a kind of basic outline of what would be good sort of guidelines for facilitation, which we can share if anybody wants to take it on for Monday. And then we have copies of
the charter summary have already been made up and um we have a sort of one pager that includes our committee charge, a list of the members and some information about the additional listening sessions which is just
available to distribute. Um, and we came up with some just very basic guidelines for uh how to how to facilitate the meeting in a in the most open possible way while still kind of guiding discussion to
focus on issues around the charter as opposed to general discussion about the town. Um, and I can I'm happy to share that. Um, Raphael, you had also brought in um the question is always how to how are
we taking notes? And so when one thing that we had talked about and that Raphael brought in is this sort of easel pad to kind of have it have visible note takingaking as opposed to one person designated to transcribe everything. Um but to take take some public notes in
real time and I think um Raphael I don't want to speak for you but I think those could be made available to whoever is facilitating. Yeah, they can. And I want to add this part of my I'm jumping ahead to my to our ch our subcommittee, but um and I I reviewed a
bunch of final reports for the chart for for charters across different towns and one just had they were not photos, but they were clearly like um you know, sticky pad on a on a on a wall sort of, you know, transcriptions. So, this is
this has been done before. Um, just to be very clear, we're not we're not we're not doing anything new or anything crazy here by by by doing it that way. So, I just wanted to give that support that this is u this has clearly been done by other towns. Yeah. And I apologize, Andy. I didn't
see your email, but um please feel free um to add that to the packet retroactively. Oh, sure. I mean, Athena has it, so yeah. So the question is about who would like
to facilitate. Um I uh I feel like it it I could I could see it both ways. We could have the we could have a member of the outreach committee continue to be present, but I don't think it has to be only a member of the
outreach committee. Um I I'm happy to be the I'm happy to be there and help facilitate. I I'm not up on the entire curriculum that you guys prepared or whatever, but I I'm I'm certainly happy to help out. I am. Me, too. Great.
Because I I can't wouldn't be there at all the last time. I'll help Andy and I can I can go over it with you. The original idea was if we had like 50 people, we'd break down into small groups, but that might not happen this Monday. It's Monday, right? That's
right. Yes. Um I should be able to be there as well. That would be great. And uh we have a Zoom link for the following one and we can talk about um next week the outreach subcommittee will meet and we can talk
about how to set up for facilitation for the following one. Do you mind just sending around the the facilitation guide or whatever the course of course before and then Andy you and I can chat over the weekend or Monday or something. Okay.
Yeah. Wait, who else is going to be there? Ken, I will. Okay. So, the three of us can chat. What time is it on Monday? 7. Yeah. And there. Oh, great. Is it virtual or is it in person? It's
at the bangs. It'll be more of us. I'll be there. Um, oh, I think I can make that. It's the same night as town council, but that's okay. Do we run into any issues if there's more than if there's a quorum of us? Yeah, we need to post it. Yeah. So, we
need to have less than a quorum. Well, why don't we just post it? We've got plenty of time to do it. Yeah. Athena just are you? Let's make sure that's okay with Athena before we just give her extra work. Posted by seven o'clock tonight. Tonight. Yeah, that
sounds like Athena. Is Are you okay doing that? Feel free to say no. It's too late to It's too late to post for Monday. Can we just attend because it's it's not a meeting of the count just like the council members go to things. I
guess that's only social events. So, as long as committee members aren't having a discussion amongst yourselves about your thoughts, feelings, opinions about the subject matter, then it's fine. If you're just facilitating a discussion and listening, that's fine. Just don't get into a discussion in
public outside the meeting. Deliberate. Good. Okay. Great. Thank you so much. So, it's Andy, Ken, Meg, Marcus, and Julian. Cool. Yeah. Raphael and Raphael. I would say um following what Athena just shared, I think part of
what we have discussed in terms of guard rails for facilitation is just listening, listening, listening. I think it's easy to chime in, share your perspective. I get it. But I think for us at least the there should be much much more listening than our own
interpretation of anything. Agreed. Thanks for saying that, Raphael. It was really because we because it was a small group. It was really um easy for us to drift into a conversation among ourselves and I think it was really important and interesting to hear um and
ask for like a little bit more detail from whatever people were sharing at that moment. Yep. Um I'm trying to think. Uh so does that any other questions about outreach update?
No. I'll send all the materials I have to everybody who I'll move on to that subcommittee. Yeah, Mang. Sorry. Just quickly, I don't know if this is helpful or not. I I was involved in a project, not the charter commission itself, but a community discussion about the charter
and I have 20 or 25 copies of the charter if that would be helpful for me to bring. Go right ahead. and then I'd love to not bring them home. But um so uh well you'll have to coordinate. Raphael, you have the materials for
materials from the first one. So yeah, I I'll be at this one the beginning of it. So I I'll just um be there with those materials. Great. Great. Awesome. Um thank you Rafael. Um
feedback subcommittee update. Yeah. Um uh I think we basically the the main thing that we did was to to talk about Ken's research or looking into the basically how other charter review
committees had presented the information that they had gotten or or their their final reports. And I think um we were intrigued by something that Framing had Framingham had done and I think Ken's here to to to talk about that as well as
maybe whatever else he wants to talk about. Yeah, I'll share my my screen um to show you what Andy's talking about and then I can try to flow into some of the other things that we t we um I think we liked or at least we want to bring up to you
guys. Um Erica, do you have a question right away? I just realized I'm not clear on who's doing minutes tonight. Aha. Oh my. I'm sorry. I did not say that in the rush of minutes. Um the minute taker for tonight I believe is
Marcus. Okay. Sorry about that. Um thank you. Sorry to interrupt. I will I will uh put it through chat GPT later. Excellent. Thank you. Sorry. Does that work? It does. That's what I did. That's how I did the first. I'm gonna come I'm gonna
come stop by and get a lesson. It's not perfect. It is not perfect on my It is not perfect, but it takes nine ten of the work away from you. So, yeah, you can go back and make it perfect.
I don't mind it honestly. Um, anyway, go ahead. Sorry about that. Oh, yeah. Let me uh let me uh share my screen and and refer first of all before I share it refer to what Andy mentioned as Framingham. Um this is um
well actually Andy now that I think about it. Framingham is it's well okay let me let me go backwards real quick. Um my research was I was sort of I was mainly focused on um
how did they present public input man on the street and then how did they present if if they did stake you know key stakeholder input how did they present that um city officials, elected officials um other important people you
know former officials and things like that. Um what we also looked at were um ways in which they uh these other um towns presented their their charter changes just the
format of how they did that. So I want to start with the format of how they presented their charter changes and that the one and we looked I think I looked at eight or nine towns um wildly different ways of presenting their
stuff. wildly different. Um, all made sense in their own in their own way, but um, not not a not an just add water kind of thing. So, uh, let me just share this. Okay. So, first here we're looking at
the Framingham final report. Um, which is a very brief document. um given what we're what I'm sure they they faced. Um what they did I'm I'm I'm skipping all the all the all the pre- stuff and just getting down to the brass
tax. So what Framingham did for presenting charter changes is they went article by article, section by section, subsection by subsection.
um what the the the what column is what did they do? Where is where is it that they did that and then why did they do that? And it's line by line. Boom boom boom boom. It's it makes a certain certain linear sense.
Um it's very bite-size, very chewable, not huge narratives. Um Bernie brought that up yesterday in our meeting. Um you you with with this version you avoid the narrative for the most part. There is some narrative in this but this is not
this is not a narrative. These are point by point. Great. Wow. Um I would imagine I haven't gone through this line by line but there probably were things they didn't touch. And I don't I mean there's
3.1B and 3.1F. So C, D, and E clearly weren't I'm going to assume that they didn't change those. So that's why they're not there. Um, so they didn't literally go through every every sub section. But this was an interesting really digestible way I think meant for
the public to consume um at the end. Um, so we looked at multiple different ways uh of other towns. This is the one that that stuck with us.
Um, so again, this is Frank. Um, it's amazing how how short these things are to be perfectly honest. Um, did
I think raise our hands here? Yeah, sorry. I can't see them on the screen when you're Hold on. Yeah, my internet connection is unstable for some reason. Okay, that's probably why. Go
ahead, Maggie. If did they have a I apologize if you said this. Was there any kind of narrative that went with this? Um, let me scroll up real quick. And did they did they give any areas where there was a difference of opinion? uh or what did it take to get in it? In
other words, we've heard suggestions that you know are clearly something only one person has advocated for. Obvious to to what extent do do they report on the variety of different opinions while they make versus just consensus? There
there's there's no sense in here about it being consensus or not to be perfectly honest. So, I can't answer that question. I don't know. Yeah, it's a great question. Were these consensus or were they just one person or a couple people that that felt these changes were made needed?
Um, so note that that that it does say this document is best used paired with a redlinined copy of the specific language changes proposed in the charter which is also available online although I couldn't find it online. So it it sounds like what they did was they said what
they did, they said why they did it and then they showed the changes in sort of a track changes version of the charter. Yeah. So this is something to to just kind of think about. Yeah. There were certainly more narrative versions. Um
which is what I'll I'll tell you that in my mind that's what I thought we were going to do. We never talked about it. We never agreed upon that. But that's just in my head what I thought a charter review report would be. So this kind of blows this out of the water a little bit. There's probably upsides and downsides. I imagine this seems pretty
simple and maybe it's not so simple. Um it's again incredibly digestible which I think is is something I I appreciate um out of a big government document. Yeah. I think what we we did talk about how we could potentially
um let on to you know who whose input led to a change um I've been pushing for a bibliography and then just cross referencing you know change a from one five three and
whatever but that's I think something for us to discuss at a later date but yeah I think The general consensus yesterday was that, you know, this is just so I don't want to call it simple, but really gets to the nitty-gritty straight away. You don't have any
questions about what's going on and uh you can really get the point across. We also talked about we also talked about how Cambridge had collected a summary and listing of all the of all the comments that they'd gotten. I think
they had a a very detailed with all the public comments in it. And something I realized, Andy, when I looked at this again was I don't know how they categorize these. These are not done by date. They're not done by name. They're not done by method. They're
random. They're very, very, very random. Um, which maybe that doesn't matter. Um, but there's there's really no organization to it. Um, but this this rolls on for about 30 pages. Wow. this tiny font. That's the regular font. This
is the font. Whoa. Yeah, it goes on and is very obviously very thorough. I love the transparency of it. Um I'm I'm a fan of this actually. Yeah. Um doesn't mean we have to do it, but um and they they redact when people mention their
their addresses, they redacted them. Otherwise, they put their names up there. Did they do it in a meeting? Do they do do it in email? Did they do it on Twitter? Um, so obviously not trying to get you to read all these things. Absolutely. Yeah,
it just it goes and goes and goes, but I mean we we talked about that, you know, our final report doesn't necessarily have to be printed. It could be something that's just on a website and it could be a table like like we saw from Framingham which explains what and why and maybe could have another column
that says the exact language or you could attach it to a track changes version of the charter and then you could have an appendix which is all the comments we got. So there's there's no reason not to include the database that
we have of all the suggestions that we got for transparency's purposes. M and I should say that there were several version several charter reports that we did talk about that did no such thing that did not list public did not list
them as an appendix. Mhm. Did not list them in a in a separate link on the website. Um some websites were very detailed and had lots of drafts of the reports. Some are very very very simple.
Um one I I made it was sort of a funny thing. One says the link says charter review committee final report and I click on it and it's a one-page letter from the chair saying we've done our work. We are now dissolved.
It's a very report. I didn't know what to expect on on on any given website. I I did expect some sort of order to it, but it made sense to them, I guess. Um anyway, so we the the subcommittee
liked liked this idea and I think we can do this fairly easily. Um the last thing was um this is Somerville. Um this is not
Oh, sorry. Let me let me go backwards real quick before we go before we go into that. um some of the final reports who did um survey key stakeholders, town
managers, mayors, current former elected officials, whoever they considered their key stakeholders. You know, they they sent them out a standard survey. They reported back the responses to those surveys either by person, so it was person's name, former mayor, may current
mayor, QA, QA, QA, QA, QA, QA. Um, some I think one did it by I think by article potentially, article of the of the report and so it was article six and then there were multiple people's responses to what they thought about. So
again, no standardization about how they did that. Um but but Q and the listing out Q&As's which were clearly I think clearly written Q&As's not out of discussion not about out of conversation that was I think we saw I think I saw it
three times out of eight or nine. Um it made sense to me. I like it that way seeing who's who can be quoted on saying what. Um last thing I'll say is that this is a what they call a community engagement summary. This is a section
typically in the very towards the very front of the of the final report that is kind of a um a summary of all the outreach that that particular review committee did. Um so for example, this one had multiple
phases. A community mailer to 10,000 residents, a kickoff of community group presentations. Phase two, broad engagement and general feedback, a monthly newsletter of 560 subscribers, unscripted engagement, um,
public comment, um, which was, I think, the meeting, the meeting public comments, um, and then targeted engagement and survey. Um, some, by the way, one or two of these charter commissions were active for like
three or four years. I don't think this was one of them, but I just want you to know they didn't try to smack all this stuff into this the tiny time what feels like a now very crunch timeline for us. Um, so just data collection, how do how do we collect data and stuff? So they'll you know direct feedback. So I think this would
be really good to to really summarize what we've done in terms of outreach. We have these different methods that we're using now and just keep track of them and we can list them all. I think it's really important to kind of show off that piece of what we've done for collecting input. Oh, thank you. I think
it's I think it's super helpful for me to know what did you how did you actually go about doing this? It may lead lead you open to some criticism. I suppose people come up with ideas after the fact, but that's that's whatever. That's fine. Um,
so those are the three pieces I wanted to I wanted to show you. the um the Framingham version of how they listed the changes, how they sorry the recommendations for changes um the how public input was shared on the Cambridge report and then the
Somerville which is one of several examples of this making sure the report lists how we reached out. Yeah. So that was our discussion last night was was you know the the table
you know the as a way of showing the changes possibly paired as a as they mentioned with the with a track changes version of the charter uh the summary and listing all comments and then the methodology. So, um the one other thing
we did look at was um the we looked again at the charge just to see. Oh, um uh Ken, do you want to stop sharing for a sec? I can
just We looked at the charge just to remind ourselves of what the three different types of um reports are. So, it's actually sort of um backwards from what I what I imagined uh Framingham did, but um because they
talked about what and why and then they eventually got to the specific changes. But this this the reports that were asked for is an initial report with draft changes, a preliminary report with recommended changes also showing a comparison of all proposed changes to
the present language. So basically the d the the recommended changes and sort of a you know the comparing it or track changes kind of thing and then the third one is recommended changes comparison wall recommended changes the present language and reasons for the
recommendation. So, if we had a three column chart that had what are we suggesting, why, and here's a specific language that would cover the final report and we could we could start off with a draft at the beginning that
has all those things and just do it three times. But, um, I don't know. But those are the that's what we're being asked for. So I thought a fourth column to that would be sorry it's just sort of a parliamentary thing but just the section section you're talking about
subsection whatever blah blah blah and then the the old language the new language and the why. Yeah I totally agree. I think just to make it easy for people it might also be helpful to like put that language into the existing charter so people can like see how it
reads. Yeah. Without Yeah. Yeah. It sounded like that's what the um what Somerville I mean what um uh Framingham also did that that they had a basically a track changes version of the charter. Erica.
Yeah, I think that depending on what we end up getting back in terms of all our public feedback in all its different forms that it might be interesting to think about how to um how to meet up those two pieces of content that you showed, Ken, the the detailed public feedback like with the
tiny font and the sort of neatly organized um set of recommended changes that the committee synthesized and somehow being able to indicate in that same row that says what we're changing and what section it applies to and why and somehow indicate the level of you
know the level of interest that we're that we saw in the process of collecting public feedback. Was this a sort of is this coming mostly from our internal discussions? Is this coming like a we're hearing tons of you know written feedback or people raising their hand and saying this um repeatedly? It would
just be interesting to figure out a creative way to connect those dots in in the report. H yeah Rael and then Marcus. Yeah, sorry to keep you up Julian. Y the sort of focus on methodology but I think
what we should be really thoughtful in thinking about is just the analysis piece like how do we come to these decisions and sort of naming that I think it's important to keep on our radar. Um I don't know if Ken you saw the Northampton there if you check their work but they
have a section at the end that deals with topics for further study. I think in the listening session there was some conversation around like topics that aren't necessarily closely aligned with charter the charter itself. I'm wondering if that could be a
conversation about what else beyond what's recommended here um as topics of further study for the council. Not to decide here, but just to think about. Okay. I I did not look at Northampton. You should check out their last section
if you have time. Thank you, Mark. Yeah, Erica, I have you covered 110%. Um, I was I've been pushing for this for the longest time. Well, since yesterday. Um, but basically, just like an academic
paper, right? You site your sources. So in that table one of the columns is the sources and so you would just the the big super table of inputs each is numbered and you just say you know 1 five whatever happened to applied for
that particular comment and then you keep going through if it's blank that generally means it was us or we could have some other thing that's just like a C or something that says committee but yeah that that's kind of like the nice easy easy way to do it without saying well in this comment on this word you we
use that and all this sort of stuff. It's just straight bangs here. Here is how you are at. And yeah, Raphael, I really like the idea of kind of like a you know uh sort of a extra things to think about sort of section pretty much what it is.
And we'll just I guess we just have to wait and see what we get. So yeah. Yeah, that actually was the last part of the table in in Frammingham was they had things that are not recommendations for this, but other things to to consider
for future charter reviews. Awesome. I think we used up our time, but um that was how we how we spent our time and we're looking forward to getting the data from the survey and um get you know uh we wanted to get your feedback on
report format and then think about you know next time we'll be thinking about how how do we bring the information to you that how do we you know organize it to for for this group and for the public. So thank you. Thank you. Um,
other questions about this or about the Colin Center update that was given this earlier before we move on to the budget. No. Okay. Um, sorry to keep you waiting. Um, Pat, I'll let you take it away with the budget. I do have a document um that
I believe I shared with you all and is in the packet and um, I can explain it and discuss it as needed. But um I'll let you take it away. Thank you. Um so we are going to do kind of what we did last time. I will put the charter up on
the screen with some notes and we'll go through it. Um this is really a review of the charter. I don't know that you'll be making any decisions right now, but it's an opportunity for you to ask questions as we go along and um talk a little bit in in a little bit more
detail. Um, let me just see if I can share the um, let's see. Okay. All right. Can everyone see article five up on the screen? Great. Fantastic.
So, um I I guess I want to start out with as we go through article five, um we're reviewing this, but many of your questions might be best addressed by talking to the town council and town
manager and finance committee and on how they are doing things right now. So, what we're going to look at is what the charter um the broad outlines under under the charter. However, not everything is going to be in the charter. Um the charter is designed to
be flexible and allow some um movement to understand when when realistically are some of these um budget issues going to come together when can you know with some hard with a few hard deadlines but not necessarily um it will not be
prescriptive as far as each and every step there needs to be some flexibility built in. So um once you make decide to make some changes I think it will be really important to check in um and see how things are being done and if you
know suggested changing dates etc um will work within what the departments are already doing um if they can work um much of the budget is set out um by state law and recommendations
um so you know we'll go through it a little it and I want to we'll talk about the key provisions and some key dates. Um I I just wanted to start out a little bit because um budgets under a council manager form
of government uh are are very different than under town government and you've probably experienced this change over the last several years. Um there's a different there's a different schedule. Um they are not looking um to have everything done by a certain town
meeting. Uh there's a little bit there's a little bit different patterns of the schedule. Um the state and I included a link here. Um the state has a sample city budget um that incorporates just
some ideas. Um and basically Ammerst budget falls within these but I wanted to just kind of set out what the state's sample calendar looks like so that you can get an understanding of the flow of the budget season.
Um but generally they recommend it about early December. Um a budget kickoff where a city manager briefs departments heads on what's coming. They select dates etc. Um January through 10 days before department hearings the
departments are reviewing and updating their materials. Um sometime between January and March 6, there will be formal departmental presentations to the city manager. um January 15 and at the same time there's some um
January 15th um onwards there's a there's a deadline for capital submissions to the budget office um in March they're going to start looking for key initiatives and benchmarks to the budget office um all
of this leads up to um the city manager submitting the budget by May 11th in this sample which you do not have to follow. It's just a kind of a a general flow for the budget season. And then over the next few weeks, there are um
any budget hearings would occur. Uh and there's a projection of a budget being adopted by June 15th with a deadline by June 25th so that the first day of the next fiscal budget, July 1st, is met. um things don't always go that smoothly,
but that's just kind of the general flow of the seasons. Uh there's not much break um before they start up the whole procedure again, but you know, really you're going from December until July. It there's constant budget movement.
Now, I wanted to lay out the we're going to go through these individually, but I wanted to put in one place in advance um some of the key dates that are locked into the charter. Now, um again, the charter is designed for some
flexibility. So, um it it's not going to say in fact um the first date um it's is at the beginning of the process there's a meeting of the budget coordinating group and that's where they're really going to look at forecasts, develop
budget guidelines, develop deadlines and um make sure that the budget the budget has a process going forward. um the next the next date set in stone and it doesn't mean it has to happen you know as late as March but the town
council will call a public forum um is it the town council I was thinking it might be the town manager but the town council calls a public forum um prior to April 1st um the proposed budgets adopted by um and I know there'll be
some questions about this going forward by the Ammer school committee the regional school committee committee and library trustees as written. It says it shall be submitted to the town manager. Um by May 1st, the town manager submits to the council the proposed budget
including municipal school and library. The town council then refers this to finance committee which must hold a public hearing and then it says they pass or amend the budget by June 30th. um a similar path um for the capital um
improvement program. May 1st, the town manager submits both an inventory of your capital items and um a fi and a 5-year capital improvement program and the council has to hold at least one public forum and vote on this before
June 30th. So that kind of lays out from the top um where we're going with this budget and the budget season. Um, so and I start and the first section, let me go back. The fiscal year of the town begins on the first day of July and ends the
last day of the following June. That is um that's state law. That's not something that's going to be changed. Um section 5.2 talks about this budget coordinating group. Um the town man there's no date but the town manager
shall call a meeting of the budget coordinating group is defined below before the budget process begins and may call further meetings. Um the role is to review the financial condition of the town revenue and expenditure forecasts and other relevant information prepared
by the town manager to develop coordinated budget guidelines and a calendar and to coordinate the process. Um right now the budget coordinating group includes the town manager, um representatives of the town council, representatives of the schools, um
library representatives, and any other people the town council and town manager deem necessary. Um so this is really designed to provide flexibility and making sure
the necessary staff participates. that may change um as roles change in local government. Um you might have someone who one year's called a finance officer and another year called a director of finance or another year um they want
someone else involved in this budget group who has the information that they need. So um in general these budget coordinating groups are flexible to include whatever staff is needed to be included um as well as representatives to to understand what's going on and
understand the um timelines going forward. One just three questions. One is really easy um is like legally speaking is it possible to add in that the budget
coordinating group discuss budget shortfalls like I see here it says the financial condition of the town revenue and expense forecasts etc but I don't see anything about the budget shortfalls and I feel like given that pretty much
every town department had some sort of shortfall this year Um, it seems like a reasonable thing to request that the BCG discuss and maybe even make priorities of we would rather you save this position or this service than that.
Now, um I think one of the one of the challenges about including budget shortfalls is that um the tax rate isn't even really set until some point, usually in December. they and they only have two
quarters um of revenue having come in. Uh so it's very difficult to estimate shortfalls at this point. They can forecast which is included here. You know what is it going to look like? How much money do we think we're going to have next fiscal year? Um it's more
difficult to forecast shortfalls. Um there may be some additional um goal setting that may be come out of this. Um there may be some conversations about what goals you know
I would say goal setting is more um of a usual discussion than shortfalls because there are there's there are a number of fixed costs that are going to have to be included in the budget and they don't know how much money they'll have quite yet. they can't forecast. They can start
forecasting but not confirm and understand what they're going to have shortfalls on. Um so I I would say maybe that term term is a little bit challenging. Um goals and priorities might be something that um is more
feasible to be included in those discussions. I think I think that sort of answers my question. And I think like a goals and priorities um statement in the BCG to ask them to discuss that and sort of guide the town manager in that direction might be very
helpful um just because we have a lot of competing needs and some sort of goals and priorities statement I think is necessary um here. So that was my first thing. My other two things is
um well the hearings are at a different time so I won't ask that question. My only other question is um in terms of the regional school committee budget because that's a separate entity than
the Ammer schools or the library. Um, I was looking at state law and how I interpreted it was that BCG can set the limits for municipal, elementary, and um, library, but they don't have the
authority to set those same limits or recommendations for the regional schools. So, that was one area where I sort of feel like I don't know completely. I'm not a lawyer, but it seemed like state law and this budget
section were out of alignment. Um I I hear what you're saying and um there there was recently a guidance paper that came out in March 2025 um about the involvement of local
governments in passing regional school district budgets which are definitely different than local school budgets because you're not the only community involved in making these decisions. Um much of it is guided by the contract um with the regional school district
contract. Um a lot is guided by the department of education and their requirements which are very strict. Um and so generally the budget is set by the regional school district outside of
this. Now, that doesn't mean that communication between, you know, what's going on in the budget process isn't important to the regional schools. It's important that the regional schools understand the fiscal situation of the
town um as as they go out and work on their own budgets. Uh I think that this would be a good item to uh reach out to the town manager perhaps in understanding what the role is of the
regional school district in this. Um I'm not sure um how much is you know what the you know what their role is. Find out what's going on in those meetings. Um, I don't think as written
this creates a problem, you know, in this section of the charter. However, you know, it's it's certainly something to have further discussions and look into if if you're concerned about it. Okay, thanks.
Okay, so moving on to the public forum. um not later than March 15th, but before the town manager submits a proposed budget to the town council, the president of the town council um along with the town
manager calls at least one public forum on the topic of the proposed budget. Uh so this is designed to be mar before March 15th before the actual budget is turned over you know to the council to
um it allows them to present priorities context based on past year's budget and other relevant information and to get feedback from the public. Um, in general, uh, this allows the town manager and the town
council to have seen the forecasts for, you know, what what will be the tax rate, how much money will we have, um, and to develop some priorities and goals and then present them to the public so that they can, um, they can get some
more public input. But I wanted to just leave it open to you all to discuss a little bit the timing of this forum, you know, whether it's working for your community. Um, again, this is something that if you wanted to change, you probably would want to talk with the
town manager and see, you know, what is a realistic timing for them to have the information that they need for this. Andy, go ahead. And I have one comment. Yeah, I mean I I think we've heard concerns from especially from parents
and the and the school uh school advocates that if the forum doesn't happen until March then a lot of decisions have already been made um or a lot of it it doesn't give the opportunity for
um you know interested members of the public to have to weigh in at the beginning of the process. Um I hear what you're saying about the um the timing of forecasts and being able to sort of project what kind of resources we're going to have, but
there's als there's a I think there's a bit of a tension between, you know, what's the purpose of the forum? Is it basically to present sort of a fat comp plea to the public or is it to to to hear from them and then be able to adjust if the if there's a ground swell
in some direction? Yeah, thank you, Andy. I I I agree. I think that like if Bernie were here, he would say November is really actually the best time for input on the budget, and that's what I've heard again and
again. Um, and that's not reflected here. So, I think that we don't want to be in a situation like um where like it's too soon for input, it's too soon for input, and all of a sudden it's too
late. Um, you know, we need to give the public a good month where we can say, "Hey, here's your time." And I think that month should be reflect what the finance committee thinks is the right time, which is November, not March 15th.
Erica, thank you. My question is about um is it possible to in the language of the charter give some more definition or shape to this the format of the forum not just its timing like I I see that
you've noted the the timing as a as a point of discussion like where does it come in the calendar of the budget coordination and so on um but given that the that it's stipulates the necessity the requirement of a public forum, but
there's only, I think, one definition of a public forum in the charter which says something to the effect of where half the meeting is devoted to public comment, but that's all it says. And is there is there I don't know is there is there room is there is it appropriate to
give some more definition to what that um standard of a public forum is or what that looks like? um if if you're asking me um there there is room on the other hand I think many times the rules evolve surrounding um
input at a public forum um as we know there have been there have been um local sup there the SJC cases have come along of what you can what type of rules you can have as far as content and style and time limits etc. So um to some extent um
that forum is going to follow the council's rules that they already have for public speaking at their at theirs. Um what I would suggest is if there's something in particular that you're interested in
including you know raising to the level of a charter requirement. Um we should definitely talk about that. Um and you can talk about what it looks like and you can talk about what's being done already. Um are there are already rules
in place and um ordin you know bylaws in place that cover this sufficiently? Um does this raise does this is should this be elevated to the level of a charter or is this something that could be changed with um changing the rules for speaking
at public forums? Um, as for the, you know, I the additional timing and and that is certainly the committee's purview to talk about the timing and um and then the question becomes are you
moving up the public forum or are you going to add some sort of earlier public meeting or place where input is requested? and and that may be earlier in a priority and goal setting meeting
with public input. Um so you may not have the numbers yet and know how much money is available to be used for what things and how many how much money is left over after the fixed costs are in are introduced. But um you
know I guess the question is whether you're going to want an additional forum in the fall um or an additional public meeting where you know priorities are discussed um and it and still keep the one that is more of a reflection on
here's where we're at in the spring and how much money we have and what some you know how now that we've had some time to look at it what are your you know what is what does the public want. Um, so those are things for you to talk about and consider making changes to.
Yeah. Thank you. Um, I guess we can keep going if anybody else has questions. Okay, this is where most of my questions are, so I apologize in advance for taking No,
not not at all. Um, that's what we're here for. Um, section 5.4 talks about submission of the budget and a budget me message not later than April 1. Um, the proposed budgets um for the Ammer school
committee, the regional school committee and library trustees shall be submitted to the town manager. Um, I'm going to stop I'm just going to take these one at a time and stop there and ask if there's any questions. I have one question which is and this
might not be possible with state law but basically we have a situation where the the library trustees in the schools as in the schools the Ammerst and region get an added month of scrutiny and the
municipal budget then gets released in May. I understand the need to combine sort of everything to make one big budget package, but would it be possible to require that like the department budgets for like I'm thinking town hall,
fire, police, DPW come out also on April 1st so that it's sort of an applesto apples comparison that everyone can look at rather than basically you you have the committees and the
library trustees submitting what they want and then the manager sort of being able to fiddle that around with the municipal budget. Um I'm I would be curious to ask the
town manager um how this works in practice. Um my my thought on this is that the town manager is involved in the creation of all of these other budgets. So he has an idea where they're going. He or she um h they have an idea of
where they're going with the budget. Um, and the reason for the April 1st submission is to get an understanding of how much they're talking about so that the budget can be completed within the parameters that are going to be required by the
other departments. Um, because they don't have that information before they complete their they they need that information before they can complete the rest of the budget. That would be my understanding for it. Um, but I think that would be a great question for the
town manager of how that would work out in practice. Um, but it's certainly something that could be considered. Okay. Any Okay. So, and and as you mentioned that that kind of bleeds right into the next section B. Not later than
May 1, the town manager shall submit to the town council a proposed budget for the ensuing fiscal year, including municipal, school, and library components as determined by the town manager with an accompanying budget message and supporting documents. The
town manager shall simultaneously publish the proposed budget on the town bulletin board. So, um, essentially May 1st, the town manager is giving the budget to the town council, including these other, um, budgets in the school
and library components. Um, and along with a message um, that that's really very typical across the Commonwealth. That's a date that's very typical. Um, but um, but I'd love to hear, you know, if you have any if you have had any
concerns or feedback about that date. I don't really have any concerns about the date. Um, my concern is, and this partially blends in where it says later
on that it goes to finance committee, but I'll ask this now. So again, Ammer school committee, library trustees, municipal budget, all makes sense that it goes to the town manager. But on MGL
chapter 71, subsection 34 says that the regional schools budget has to go directly to the appropriating authority, which in our case is town council. Some places it's town meeting
or city council um for a vote, but instead in Ammerst it goes to the manager, then to the finance committee, and then to the council. So,
the law says um and I spoke with Tracy Novik that the law says that it goes straight to town council to be voted on. So, it's sort of concerning to me that the wording here is
has it going to the manager and then the finance committee. Not that they can't have input, but the the law has it for a reason that it goes directly to the Democratic decision-making body, not through multiple layers of administration. Can I can I get
clarification? Is this this is the regional the regional assessment is going directly to the This is just the regional school budget, not the assessment, just the regional school budget. Um, not the elementary school
budget, not the library, just the region. Why would the region budget go to any anybody other than the school committee? We we only care about the assessment. We're we're paying we're paying our share of the region's budget, but we
don't approve the the region's budget, right? But that assessment goes Sorry, I may have misspoke. That assessment, according to state law, goes straight to the town council. But in Ammerst, it goes to the finance to the town manager
and then to the finance committee and then to the council. Well, the the the assessment needs to be part of the town's budget. So, I don't know why we'd approve one piece of the town's budget without having considering what the implications are for the rest of the budget.
Well, I think what is being said here, sorry to um keep going on, but this is just what I'm trying to explain is that it both the town council has one vote on the regional school budget and one vote on the regional school assessment
method. That is fine and how it should work. But before it gets to the town council, it goes to the town manager and the finance committee, which is not in compliance with state law. State law has it just
going to the town council without the finance committee or town manager's involvement. Not that they can't have input at the council level, but they don't get to do the 17 pages of review that they did
this year. That's not legal. I'm I'm confused by that. Do you want me to send you I'm happy after the meeting I can send you the subsection in the law that I'm reading off of. Would that help? Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I guess to put it in the phrase of a question like I was just sort of unless I'm misreading the law, please correct me if that's the case, but um I sent you the document Pat, it seems sort
of blatantly out of alignment with what the law says. Um I think there I would also first of all you know the Colin center we don't give legal opinions on you know whether this is within the four corners of it.
Um I can say that this charter went through the attorney general scrutiny process and that wasn't raised as an issue to my knowledge. Um that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. I I don't see without knowing the facts of what
happens once once it gets there. Um, you know, it would be impossible for me to say whether this is the appropriate way for it to go. I think, you know, you may want to have town council weigh in on this. Um, your rather s your solicitor
weigh in on this, but I would encourage you. I I'm not sure was was what you sent me was it the March 2020 there is a March 2025 guidance on municipal approval of regional school district budget. Is that is that what you sent? Yep. That's what
I have also you know and and definitely the town council needs to be voting on the assessment that's put before it by the regional committee. Um, that doesn't mean that others can't weigh in on what they think about that because the town
council is looking for guidance in how they're going to vote. Um, but whether this particular language and order, um, you know, I don't think it's necessarily violates the, you know, spirit of the
law, but I I think that's uh for that's for your town's attorneys to decide. So you may want to flag that as an issue that you ask your um city solicitors because um it's it's difficult to say to some extent the finance committee is an
arm of the town council that they provide them advice. Um so from that perspective um it certainly would make sense for them to review it. um whether um you know whether the town council receives it and then hands it to them
for review or whether it goes to the town manager first who hands it to them for the review. I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not. I I really couldn't give an opinion on that. Okay. But it's definitely something to look into if it's a concern of yours. Yeah, I
think should go ahead. Sorry. Nope. Nope. I'm finished. Yeah, I think we should look into this just because like basically what happens now is it goes to the town manager. The town manager puts it within
his guidelines which effectively usually chops a few million dollars off of the budget. Um and then after that the finance committee votes on it and then that vote goes to town council. So, like
it'd be one thing if finance committee or the town manager came to town council in public comment or whatever and said, "Hey, here's what I think of the regional school budget. I don't like it or I do like it." I feel like that would be more appropriate, but they the
manager puts it within the guidelines and then the finance committee votes on it and the finance committee vote is what actually gets sent to town council, not the regional school committee vote. But isn't isn't the isn't a fine isn't a
committee of the town council's vote their voice right so they are telling the town council this is what we think I mean after it's get sent to the
manager in the I'm I'm not talking about the first bit your your complaint was twofold, right? Goes to the manager and then it goes to the the finance committee. The finance committee vote is their voice. They are a I think as the Collins Center
was saying, they are a member body of the town council. They're appointed by the town council to give them, you know, feedback or whatever, right? So, I mean, that's just that to me fits into the the letter of the law. The town manager is
required to submit proposed budgets per this. So in order for it to be a proposed budget in general, doesn't it have to go to the town manager to then get proposed?
I mean honestly I'm not completely sure but I'm looking here and the what I got from the letter um was that they were guiding that this does not include select boards or
finance committees um and that it wasn't the authority wasn't provided to them it was only provided to the town council I can understand the argument of there's an arm of the town council. That's the finance committee. But that also the
finance committees of what four or five member body that cuts out the voice of another seven counselors who weren't on the finance. No, but I mean so but you pointed you pointed out right there right that it's a select board finance
committee part of things. Is that is it just be the different form of government necessarily? I mean this is something this is a question for the you know to the consent's point for the town attorney but I mean is this just the way that we're you know talking about it
sounds like it's very we need to get into you know who's what where and when and yeah I' I'd rather not ponder without getting full input. Julian, if I Julian, if I may, the regional school
budget comes to the council and the council refers it to finance committee. It doesn't go directly to the finance committee. The council acts on it first. Got it. Thank you. Then it goes to the finance committee and then finance committee makes a recommendation and the council
takes the final action. But there is an initial presentation to the town council. Usually the superintendent or the um the regional superintendent or the regional finance director will come and help make that presentation. Counselors have an opportunity to ask
questions um and then they usually submit additional questions to finance committee so that that can be included in the final report. Okay, that clarifies it somewhat. Thank you. You're welcome. I still think the manager point stands
but I understand what is being said about finance or fin. Um I think we should still investigate and ask the lawyer about this because it does say
directly to the town council which even if it goes there it doesn't go there for a vote. It just goes there for a discussion and then back and then back and forth. So, I mean, I don't know. I'm
not a lawyer, but it does it doesn't seem completely kosher. Sorry, Andy. Yeah, I mean, the council will be aware of what the school committee has and the
superintendent have have requested. Um but it is the job of the manager to come up with the proposed budget including the regional assessment. So at the same time,
we're basically looking for an Ammeris budget that includes the regional assessment and if the council receives a budget from the manager and they've already heard that the the region had a higher budget,
but the but but the you know the the manager said we can't afford that. So, I'm going to I'm going to recommend an assessment at this level. Or, as sometimes happens, one of the other towns says we can't afford that. So, the assessment ends up coming down lower for everybody. Um, the council could reject
the budget and say, "Go back and give us another budget that has that that more closely reflects what the the super the school committee requested." Um but the the job of
the manager is to prepare the the budget for Ammerst including the regional assessment. So whoever it gets sent to, it's ultimately the job of the manager to propose something that's going to pass. And it's the job of the council to reject it if they don't think it
represents what the people want. All right, I think that's my only question on this section. Um, I'm just looking here on this specific section. That's my only
question. Um, was about those issues. Um, I think probably the best place to go with it, I'll send you that email, Andy, but I think the best place to go with it is to ask some sort of legal advice about this because
I I mean the everybody has a different interpretation of the law, but the way I read it, something's sort of incorrect here. Um, okay. So, um, we'll we'll move on with this. Um, I I
had a couple other points on this, but I really I I think it's best to, you know, have you have your interpretation outside of what we would what we would do. Um, but it it's just interesting. You know, I I have read the letter. Um,
and because I'm not aware of what exactly happens at these meetings and where it's going first and what's um, been through it, I don't really I don't think I should opine on that. Um, but let me let me talk about C. Um, the budget message
explains the proposed budgets um, in terms of priorities, programs, etc. It outlines proposed financial policies of the town, describes important features. etc. Um, and may include any other materials that the town manager
considers desirable or that may be required by the provisions of a town bylaw. It also outlines the progress progress being made on the current capital improvement plan. Um, and kind of goes together with D. The budget prop um proposed budget provides a complete
financial plan for all town funds and activities except as otherwise required by law. in the form that the town manager considers desirable or may be required by law bylaw. Um the actual format of the budget and
tends to I'm sorry to interrupt. Are you still screen sharing? I'm not seeing it. Oh, I'm sorry. Did it It's showing me still screen sharing then maybe it's my computer. I'm sorry. Um can can anyone else see? I'm sorry. My bad. My fault.
Yep. Go ahead. So, um, what I wanted to highlight here is the form of the budget. You know, some sometimes it's going to be, you know, technology and best practices change and how the budget should be presented, whether it's an Excel
spreadsheet or a different kind of format. So, you you definitely want to give Lee flexibility in here for the town manager to present the budget in the most upto-date um in the most up-to-date and flexible way. But I wanted to ask if you had if anyone had any comments on C or D before we moved
on. Okay. I'm not seeing any. All right. Section 5.5 action on the budget. Um public hearing. um as soon as it receives the proposed budget, the town council refers the budget to the town council's finance
committee, which shall hold a public hearing um no less than giving no less than 10 days notice. Um financial committee thoroughly review the budget, make a presentation and recommendation to the Wooltown Council within 30 days
of referral. Um so any comments on five on section A? Um the finance committee considers any questions. Um in general they the finance committee can take a look at
books, accounts, management of agencies um and through the town manager, superintendent or library detect library director um ask for people to come before it and talk about um the budget and and provide information. Um
the finance committee's membership um as an advisory committee for the town council seems to be it includes members of the public who have a vote may include members of the public who have a voice but no vote. Um and council rules
shall address the appointment of such members. So um we'll see this a lot. Um some council manager forms of government don't even have a finance committee. It's just a subcommittee of the full council. It might be a couple of
counselors who um get together and and bring this. But there there is a finance committee mentioned here. Um there's not a lot of definition as to who is involved in this. And I would suggest that's probably intentional because they want to be able to build a finance
committee that includes staff. Um and um and members of town council um maybe you you know you can talk a little bit more about whether the makeup of the um finance committee and their role is
working for the town of Amherst. Um is that something that you've had public input on? had a little bit of discussion on it, but not anything huge. If I'm recalling correctly, um
Andy, we have had several people recommend that the uh resident members should be able to vote, right? That's I was going to Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that a lot. I've heard that a lot. question I was thinking and I don't know what people
think of this is even maybe the possibility of elected town resident members. I don't know how allowed that is, but like have the town be able to elect
simply finance officials um as resident me members. Um, and that way everybody sort of gets I mean we get a voice on town council who manages the finances but the town itself as taxpayers
we pay some of the highest taxes in the state but we don't get a direct person who solely handles finances who we get to vote on. And I know in a lot of other states, not so much in Massachusetts, but like in Vermont and Colorado, um
they elect their own municipal finance officials. I'm going to raise my hand here. Yeah, go ahead, M. Um I think it's another time of discussion interesting discussion about which leadership positions require
a special level high level skill uh and which and might another way of putting it which are most uh benefit by being elected by a popular vote as opposed to appointment based on
qualifications. I mean both have pros and cons. It's the federalist papers discuss this a lot. The tyranny of the majority and so on. There the whole protecting democracy from the voters.
Go ahead. If I recall from the charter commission, um, as Pat said, some places just have a subcommittee of the town council that is the finance interested members who, uh, you know, vet things for the council and
then bring it back to the full council. We we decided to have a little more public, you know, something have a little bit of extra uh, perspective on that. But we were hoping to have people with some financial expertise. So, um I
think that's why we had the the community members. But, um and then and then to have but the question that I've heard more about is like if you have these people on who have some sort of presumably have some expertise and have suffered through the process with the other finance committee members, the
town council members that maybe they should have a vote to, but they're not elected. So, um, you know, I don't have a particular thought on it, but I think that's the it's a little bit more public, uh, involvement than just having a subcommittee of the council, but but
they don't have a vote right now, so we could decide on that. Yeah, it's certainly something to discuss. I'm not opposed to having the resident members have a vote. I just thought it just might make sense given that I know like if we look up in like
Boulder, Colorado, they have elected finance they have elected finance officials. Um, and I just think that's sort of an interesting way of making like I hear what Meg's saying, but I also think the economic democracy in this day and age is really important,
especially when we are making a lot of decisions that affect a lot of voters. I mean, generally the main things we hear about in town are the roads and the schools. This is how that money gets spent. I think the more
say that people can have in that the better. Me Julian I think we're mixing up two things. We're talking about two things at the same time. One is whether the resident member should vote and the other is how resident members are appointed or elected.
They're separate. Yeah. I'm just arguing that they should be elected. I'm not weighing in on what I think. I'm just distinguish making a distinction between those two issues, whether they vote and how they're chosen.
Yeah, I'm I'm less concerned with if they vote or not. I'm more concerned with if they're elected. But Andy, I I mean I I've been speaking Marcus, I think, had his hand up. Sorry. Go ahead, Marcus. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Um, I mean,
yeah, it's nice idea to have elected voters uh that I mean, sorry, elected members that are non-counsel members on a finance committee committee, especially for a city like Boulder, which is slightly larger than here. Um,
we barely get enough people to run for town council. So adding to the number of townwide elected voting positions to me seems a bit of a reach, but uh certainly open for discussion.
Yeah, Andy. Um yeah, I kind of feel like we elect town council members to make these kinds of to to weigh these kinds of things. So, and then we and then we have members of the council who are elected on the as a majority of the finance committee and
then we look for some people with some financial expertise to join them to help deliberate. So, I kind of feel like we have a good mix uh with hopefully some expertise that comes from the community and um and people who are elected to
make, you know, to to prioritize and to to make judgmental decisions. Um the but the question as me as meg pointed out is if we have those people who have some expertise should they have a vote too or should they just be advisory? Bernie has
been in that role. It'd be interesting to hear what he has to say. Yeah, I will just point out what Raphael said I think was a good point. Boulder is a little bit larger of a town. Um, and I looked it up and actually Dalton,
Massachusetts, which is on the other end, slightly smaller than Ammerst, um, elects its own finance committee separately from its select border town meeting. Um, which I find sort of interesting that that's how they do that. Um,
anyway, uh, I'll move us along if folks don't have any other questions or comments. Um, I just wanted to point out that Dalton is a is a town form of government and not a city form of government. Um,
so there's a little bit of difference in how finance committees work in both just just to you know there's a little bit of a distinction um but um your your point is still taken.
Um okay. So uh as I mentioned this this is definitely any changes that you want to make to the finance committee, you should get input from the finance committee as well about any specific changes. Um fortunately you have a member on your on your um committee to
at least start with uh because it's really important to understand how they're working and what's working for them and whether it's working for them. Um and it and it also will help go through the process because you want to make changes that will be um you know
that down the line you want these changes to be approved and go through. So it's great to get the input up front. U the next C is action by town council. Um okay the the town council adopts a
budget with or without amendments by June 30th. Um in amending they may delete or decrease programs or amounts except for expenditures required by law. Um except on the recommendation of the town manager, they shall not increase any item or the total of the proposed
budget unless otherwise authorized by general laws. Um the one place where it is authorized by general laws is um under certain circumstances in the school budget. Um if if the and there are parameters to that. If the town council fails to take action on an item
by June 30th, that amount um shall without any action by the town council become part of the appropriations for the next fiscal year and shall be available. Uh the vote to approve is a roll call vote and if they um it's
the rest is just procedural. So essentially um the the budget budget needs to be adopted with or without amendments by June 30th. Um some some places say June 15th give it a little more of a cushion uh if there needs to
be some additional uh a additional time. Uh I'm a bit curious if you've ever run into a problem with the June 30th deadline. If not, you know, if it's if it's not broke, doesn't need don't fix it. But um it's something to it's just something to consider. I I don't think
I've seen any feedback that says that the June 30th date is a problem. Um does anyone have any um any comments on this particular section? Andy, go ahead. And then I have two. I'm curious. You said under certain
parameters the uh town council can increase the school budget. What are those parameters? Um it has to be within um the they would have to decrease from other portions of the budget. it still has to be under um the two and a half.
It it has to fall you you have to have the money essentially to be increasing that and it has to be reflected in the rest of the budget. So like just I'm trying to understand the exact same thing Andy is. So it's it's a separate law that the town has to
opt into and I'm not sure if Ammerst if Ammerst has opted into that. Ammerst has not opted in but Northampton has. Ammerst has opted in. Oh, it has. Oh, awesome. Okay, great. Um, I know Northampton did, but I don't remember
Ammerst. Thank you, Athena. Um, so basically that just means the town council could theoretically say we are going to, and I'm just inventing this, we are going to reduce the capital budget by 300,000 and move
that money into half the elementary schools and half the regional schools. That would be allowed. I think we really have to take a closer look at it. Um I I don't want to say that they can do that because you know I'd have to really look at it. Um it it would really depend on the
circumstances. It's um there's procedures that have to be followed. It has to be done the right way. Um and that is um as far as I know one of the other one of the only exceptions to um moving to um making that. Okay. Got it.
And we have opted in. So even though it's not written in the charter, I imagine the counselors know about the exceptions even though I didn't. And there's a reason it's not included. There's a reason they say unless otherwise authorized by general laws because general laws really controls
that and not the charter those circumstances. Awesome. Thank you. Any any other questions on this section? um supplementary budgets, other appropriations. Whenever the town
manager shall submit a request for a new appropriation of any sum either as a supplement um to the annual budget or for items not included um town council does not act on that until it's been reviewed by the finance committee, published and there's a public forum. So
unless except in the case of an emergency. So if something comes up during the year, they need to pay an additional bill that they didn't count on. Um it does need to go through a similar review process through the to the finance committee and a publication
and public forum. Um so that is you know allowing for the fact that the budget is not may not necessarily be perfect the first time around and some oftentimes there are additional you know maybe you need a new you there may be some change
midyear that requires even correct me if I'm wrong this is how we got our money for so yeah for example um Ken yeah a question about the the bulletin forward
part of 10 days. Is that because somebody can raise sort of raise their hand in some way to to say I don't like this? I mean why why the why the 10 why at all on a bullet board? You know it's very interesting because charters
reflect moments in time and it's very difficult to say where notices have to be placed in a charter because things change. There's websites, there's community, there's social media. I I think the bulletin board is often chosen simply because it existed and it
continues to exist and um most cities and towns you can go find the bulletin board and and take a look at it. Um that's why that is there. Um the publication is just to make sure everyone's aware of an item. It's about
transparency in in budgeting so that additional funds aren't allotted quickly without thought. Okay. Thank you, Andy. There has been a little talk of what language should you actually do in use in future charter
surrounding notices. Um because oftentimes there's not of you know your town is very lucky, but there's often not even a local paper to put things in. Um I think Andy has a question though. Yeah, I'm just trying to remember what
what we did, but I think we defined the bulletin board somewhere and basically said that it was well maybe maybe it's not here, but it's not in the definitions, but somewhere I think it says Andy, it is in definition. It's it's under it's under T. It's town bulletin board, not under be bulletin
board. Maybe the same thing. Um but yeah that that the idea was that um to to just use bulletin board as as a an identifier for whatever way we want to publicize you know whether the the website or whatever. So we we have a
place on the website now called the bulletin board and that's where those notices go. Thank you so much Athena. Um, I have a bunch of questions about 5.7,
but um, go ahead, Pat. I I just did you see that Marcus has his hands up? Oh, sorry, Marcus. Oh, it was nothing important. I was just saying this reminds me of the bans of marriage in the UK that have to be announced, you know, every two weeks for a month. So
it's all just because people take her that long to ride from town to town. So wonderful. Okay. Um so the next section is the capital
inventory and capital capital improvement program. Um there are there's some requirements. I'm not going to just read it to you, but um not later than May 1st, the town manager also prepares and submits the capital
inventory in the 5-year capital improvement program and a public forum is held and um at any time after the public forum before June 30th, the town council adopts the um capital capital
improvements program. Um and because you have questions rather I mean it's why don't we just go directly to your questions. Sure. My first one is pretty easy which is it says the town council shall establish the requirements for the
inventory such as age, condition, mileage, repair history, useful life, etc. I know we have a document um because I've looked over it that has some of these things, but it doesn't
include all of the town assets. In fact, some were removed this year. Um and then it doesn't include the mileage or useful life or maintenance or repair for any of these vehicles. Like I have a stack of
stuff in my glove box of maintenance and repair. Same with like house projects that I have never seen. And I get that seems like a minute detail, but it would surprise you some of the things we claim
need replacing. Um, so I feel like it might be useful to have those things given like I haven't seen I've seen age and condition, but I haven't seen any maintenance or repair history or
remaining useful life information on projects like the town hall roof or some stuff at the bank center or some vehicles at the police department that information just isn't there for. And I'm not trying to point out any of those
departments individually. Um I just think that it's important that like what recourse do we have if this isn't actually being done on the council level? Um well
there are a few I mean you this is really a balance of powers issue and since the town council appoints the town manager that's certainly something that they can address directly with the town manager. Um it may be a part of their um
a part of their review process. Um they may have given the town manager some guidelines as to what they need and what they don't need already. Um I'm I'm not sure um that would that would definitely be something the town council could address
with the town manager um and see what they're doing and how they're following it. This particular sometimes there are charter enforce there just a handful of charters have charter enforcement provisions. Um they're very complicated
and they're very difficult and they're a very new idea. Um, but that is something that could be adopted if it was really necessary. I I guess I'm wondering, have you has anyone looked into whether
the town council is interested in having this information or if they've said the amount of money that you're spending to get this information isn't worth the value of what you're giving to us? um they may be interested in either updating the capital inventory language
or um coming up with a better plan for following it. Yes. Um the answer to your question is it's been asked for with some of the information provided and some of it not. Um
so anyway, that that I find that idea of an enforcement provision really sort of interesting. So, I appreciate that. Um, my other question was just is this a sort of appropriate place to
put in like I know sometimes we have unexpended funds like there was 500,000 that was going to go towards the bank center that didn't get expended in the process. There's money at Mson Library that didn't get expended. Um, and I'm
wondering like is there any way that in addition to the stuff already included in the capital inventory, we could add um something about a report back on unexpended funds.
Um, funds that were not expended for capital improvements specifically. Yeah. Just because like if you think of a few hundred,000 at the library and then 500,000 at bangs that just don't get
expended like we don't want that money to just van vanish. It could probably pave someone street. Um is that you know my question is that already being included in the capital plan where money is shown what wasn't, you know, what they're not going to need
going forward, what wasn't expended. Sometimes that's on the um but it's you know that is something for you to make a note of and decide if you want to and talk to you know find out the process and if that's
already given somewhere in the plan and decide if that's something you want to include. Okay. Uh my understanding is that the cap uh joint capital planning committee has a prioritized list and so if they and then
they have an amount they can spend each year. So if they don't end up spending it on some item on the list, they would go down to the next item and they would put it toward that is my understanding, but I'm not I don't know for sure. Uh Julian, a lot
of times the the capital spending is borrowing and so we don't we don't have if we don't spend it then we don't borrow it so we don't have any you know there's there's no like unused money left over. Sometimes projects come in under budget so there would be a surplus but we would only borrow what we need.
Got it. Thank you. I think with the bangs I was thinking of cash but Mson might have been borrowing. I could be wrong. Um all righty. Let me see if I have any other questions. Um, budget should include
Sorry, I have a document here I'm reading off of. It's the same thing that we attached in the meeting so everyone has it. Um, yeah, I think that the only other question I had was with the
five years. Um, with the 5 years, are we sort of going are we requiring Does this mean we're requiring everything to be in the 5-year plan or is this just meaning we're sort of
encouraging them to plan out with most things in section C or so it's just a projection, okay, the five-year capital plan. So, um staff puts together what they project they'll
need in the next 5 years. Some departments have, you know, expenses that come up, you know, every 3 years something needs to be replaced. So, that's reflected in the 5-year capital improvement plan. Um, and so we can see kind of those big expenditures coming a
little ways down the road and and plan accordingly. But okay. Yeah, that answered my question there. A planning budget isn't a commitment to spend it. It's just helping you figure out what's coming down the road. Yeah. Um the committee
should be Yeah. Um Okay, that makes sense. And my only other suggestion was under IV in section B. Uh I was thinking we could add something like the committee could be responsible for determining the
most efficient and cost-effective time schedules and financing options. I don't know that's not something that currently happens at BCG. Like they discuss it, but it's that's more at the department level. Um, and I feel like that might be
a discussion that should happen at JCPC rather than at the department level. So, that might be something that I mean, I'm not completely sure it's legal to add, but I imagine we could have. And that's all. Okay. Any any other comments or input on
that section? Okay. Um just briefly um section 5.8 talks about an h an independent audit um and that is something the town council provides for an outside audit um
conducted by a CPA um or another certified public accountant um etc. This just outlines a very you know usual process for having an audit. Um, were there any and I believe were there any I thought there was some public input into
this but I might be wrong. Was there any questions about this process? Did we have an audit in like the last few years? I don't remember quite honestly. There's there's an every year. Um, the audit. Yep. It goes to the the town
council. I must have just missed it. Awesome. And then my only other question was something that I wasn't able to include in my document. So I apologize to the other committee members but at our
um public forum we discussed level of detail in the budget and I was wondering in like we have a very deep level of detail in terms of the capital stuff but in terms of the operating we don't really have a level of detail that
we ask for in the budget from the manager and the finance department and I was wondering would it be appropriate to put something similar to what we have in the capital with a level of detail in the operating section. Um because I know a lot of school advocates and folks have
asked to see, you know, what the salaries are, what the expenditures are. Like we have an overall um an overall accounting, but we don't really have a direct like um
take the town manager's office budget. We don't have a the town manager makes this much money and this much money is spent on the fax machine. We have an overall view. But with the school and the library budget, we do have those very specific views. In the capital
budget, we have those very specific views. And in like Northampton city budget or even in like Shespberry town, little town budget, um that type level of detail is included. So, I feel like that might be something.
Is it possible? What I'm asking is, is it possible to include that level of detail in We have on our website something called open checkbook. You can go and look up the past three fiscal years, what's been spent. A lot of times in those department budgets, you'll, you
know, budget $100 for paper and $200 for ink and you use maybe some more ink than you use paper. you know, it doesn't always come out perfectly. So, um it's not always useful to have that level of detail in
the budget, but then the expenses are all part of open checkbook. So, you can see exactly what's been spent on different things. Thanks. And also, this is the we're talking about the charter. I don't think in the charter you have that level of specificity. It's you want
to leave as Pat said more clearly than I'm going to say it so I won't I guess but you want to leave things enough open that um people are it's not you're not creating more work that you're creating benefit
Yeah. I just know Northampton does it like maybe not as much to like the level of inc but like it's it's in the charter in Northampton. It's in the charter. Yeah. They have it where do they have to list how much they pay on their fax machine and stuff like that. Not that detailed but that they they require that
was the example you gave. So they require a level of detail. Basically they say we have to know how much it costs to pay this person or we have to know where this money within this department goes. And that's in the charter. That is in the charter. And the
Northampton city budget if you look at it I mean I could like they had the exact salary of the comproller for example and in the charter yeah in the charter it is it tells how much this person's salary is by the city of Northampton to have that level of
detail. Um it doesn't say specifically the salary but it says an in-depth analysis. Andy, you're muted, Andy, but while you're muted, I'm just going to tell you that salaries are posted online. Okay.
Um Pat had uh me mentioned uh seeing something in the list of feedback about auditing and I went back and looked and there is somebody who said that we should have not just an accounting audit but a performance audit which was the
idea of having some independent contractor give us a sense every couple of years of are we getting value for money and I don't know how that would actually work But that was what one of the suggestions was a performance audit as opposed to an
accounting audit. Interesting. Yeah, that's a good that's a good point. I'll think more on that, Andy. Thanks for bringing that up. Um, all right, that's all I have, I think. Thanks for bearing with me. Yeah, so sorry. Going back to
what you were just saying, Julian, I'm looking at the charter of Northampton. I don't see It just says describe important features of proposed operating budget. Include any ma any major variations from the
current budget, fiscal policies, revenues, and expenditure together with reasons for these changes. I don't see where it's saying down to the level asks for the specific expenditures and they provide there's a variation in
the expenditures. they h right which means the amount of money they spent x year on this position or this role and then the amount of money they'll spend this year on it. We
don't see that in the emer budget. So, they have asked specifically to have those variations of the specific roles and info and they get it. And I'm suggesting or asking if it's possible
for Ammerst to do the same thing in one document that's easy for the public to read and understand. Yeah, I'm I'm concerned about what this means for the unions, too, but we will talk about it.
Um, Julian, the, you know, personnel expenses are in the budget. Is that what you're referring to? Because that is a section of the budget. Yeah. I'm more thinking of like I guess the best thing I can say is look at the
Northampton City budget and look at the level of detail that it goes into in terms of both personnel and like expenditures on equipment and maintenance and small
contracts and that sort of thing. Um, and it is a much greater level of detail and as Marcus pointed out in the charter it asks for or advises that it has that granularity to it. Well, yeah. I Julian,
I'll be careful with that. I'm saying it asks for a difference. It doesn't ask for necessary. There are ways to get to what you're talking about without going to the level of granularity that you're seeing in the budget. I would suggest that they
potentially determine that the way that they present the budget is the way to get to that. But what's in the charter, which was what um Meg was kind of getting to, is a bit higher level than that.
Right? So it's kind of laying out a strategy in this in the charter, but they have chosen outside of the charter to go down to the level that you're talking about. So you know there's a need for us to kind of
work to see what that balance is if you understand me. Yeah, that makes sense to some extent. I mean, I think there's no hurt in more detail unless we hear that
it's un Yeah, that's where I get into the potential impact to like union contracts and things, right? People not wanting certain bits put out in public at the level of detail that they can be. So, yeah, I guess we'll see. Yeah, that
makes some sense. But all those union salaries and stuff are put on like within the contracts that are posted publicly within. Yeah. It's like if you go what you're talking about by going line by line that's a little different, right? So I guess that's where we get
the into the issues. I guess. Yeah. I mean the schools and the library publish line by line and I know that may be the part of their agreement with their union, right? Yeah. So that that that's why I'm saying like
we can think about it, but there's potential kickback on the other end. So we that's what the town staff feedback form is for, I guess. Exactly. Um anyway, we're over time. Um so we want to discuss future agenda items and
thank the Colin Center for being here. Raphael. Yeah, thanks for the presentation. Um, I think it moving forward it'd be great to sort of circle back to the timeline around like reports when they're due, uh, sharing with the public. It would
also be good to think about like how will we as a committee collectively analyze the feedback. There's a lot that's coming in. I think that analysis from this group, it's important to think about what that might entail and just grappling with that feedback as a
collective group before we launch into sort of thinking about the writing report and sharing. I think it's important to push that onto the agenda soon. Thanks, Andy. Um, while we have Pat here as
because we're not going to have we're not going to have her in meetings going forward for a little while. Um, my understanding is that you guys are going to continue to uh give us the annotated sections that you've walked us through with the kinds of red red comments in there for us to
think about. So, we'll need to be continuing to go through the sections and figure out how we're going who, you know, who's facilitating that and how's that how's that going to work. And then um I guess the while we have Pat here, I
was wondering if you have any any experience with other uh committees if they're trying to decide what goes into a report and what doesn't. Do they do it by majority vote? Do they do it by consensus? Do they do it by anybody who
has an idea gets to put it in the list? Um you know, how does that how does that work? I would say um it you're trying to build consensus. You're trying to build something that everybody will feel comfortable signing on to. Um
as far as to what public are you talking about what public input to put into the report or just what the report should look like? What the recommend what the recommendations would what what recommendations make it into our report? How do how do we decide? Okay. Um,
generally what happens is along the way you'll have some um kind of mini boats and the mini boat won't be like a deciding vote, but it may be something like um for for we we you may decide
that certain language will go into the charter for for further you know we're moving forward with this language at this point and then at the end you will have a vote on the entire charter. Um, and obviously your your goal for all of
you is to reach some consensus. Um, it you you'll have an even more effective chance of your, you know, report and your recommendations being followed the more consensus you have. Um, but you know, you you may not be unanimous on each individual vote. Um, and somebody
may, you know, at the end you may feel this whole all of these charter changes should go forward together. I'm not going to hold it up for my one piece that I think I should have included. Um, but you you will have, you know, I would recommend doing some at least straw polls along the way so that you can
understand where you've built consensus around an issue and where you've moved forward. Thanks, Me. Sorry, I'm finally eating a little dinner. I just want to reinforce what
Raphael said that um it's we we have are trying we need to listen to what people are telling us. It it was clear to me early on in this process that what I think isn't very important. It's really about listening to what the public has to say and processing it and and
fine-tuning. And I'm eager for us to get going. We've we've heard a lot of things. So, I'm eager for us to get going calling through it. Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing to seeing the survey results. Yeah, hopefully more than Me, too. And listen,
what what what are we hearing? Yeah, because we didn't get elected to or appointed to this committee to I don't I I I believe to just sort of proitize what we think. Yeah, I think surface that feedback and how we analyze it and thinking about
that in terms of the methods that we use is really important to consider. So, more of that. But he's looking forward to looking forward to Me too. All right. Anything else before we adjourn?
No. I'm just curious with eight people. What's a quorum? If if one of us dropped off and there were only four, is that a quorum? Nope. Um, five is a quorum. So, if one more person dropped off, we would end the meeting.
Let's end it anyway. So, I'm going to end the meeting. Bye. I'll second that. Um, yeah. See you later. I'm Raphael. Great.
Where's that damn red button? Can't find it. Ext.