##VIDEO ID:aP_CzQjypAQ## we're recording please go ahead thank you so much good evening it's January 13 2025 this is a regular meeting of the Town Council but includes a pause for a public forum the open meeting law which by the way does expire at the end of March but we're here it's going to be renewed um allows us to continue holding meetings REM Ely without a quorum of the council physically present at a meeting location while providing the public with adequate alternative access to the meeting this meeting is accessible in real time by Zoom by phone and is a live broadcast on Amis media channel 9 and through live stream at this point there is a quorum of the council in the room and there are additional people in on Zoom um it I will call upon each counselor by I'll give that we have a quorum of the council present I am calling the January 13th 2025 regular Town council meeting to order at 631 I will call upon each counselor by the name they have indicated they would like to be addressed at that time please unmute your mic and say present this will indicate that we can hear you and you can hear us please remember to mute your mic after saying present Pat deangelus present Anna Devin gothier present councelor ET pres Lyn grimer is present councelor hanii present Bob hegner present councelor Lord present but Pam Rooney here councelor Ryan present Kathy Shane here Andy Steinberg pres Jennifer to here councelor Walker I'm not seeing her yet okay there's no chat room for the meeting um if you have a uh technical issue please make sure Athena and I know about or that we know about it uh during this evening there will be two public comment periods one during the public forum and one during the general public comment period of the regular meeting the order order of the agenda is altered immediately following the call to order I will be turning the meeting over to the clerk of the Town Council atheno O'Keefe so that she can conduct the annual election of the president after that the president will conduct the annual election of the vice president the plan at that point includes a pause in the regular meeting in order to conduct the public forum upon conclusion of the public forum the plan is to reconvene the regular council meeting an executive session is scheduled at the end of the meeting unless otherwise informed the council will not return after the executive session with that I'm turning it over to AO Keef I see a member of the finance committee and I just want to let you know Tom that the public forum on the Appropriations outside the budget will begin at 7 o'clock if you want to leave your camera off or come back at 7 so I'm just going to run through the process of electing the president since it's been a year since we've done this um before I open for nominations so the process is that I will open for nominations nominations don't require a second councelors May nominate themselves um when you make a nomination you state the name only you don't make any other statements or or engage in discussion um the nominee will be asked if they accept the the nomination um you'll just say yes or no no discussion and then in alphabetical order I'll ask each nominee if they'd like to make a statement up to two minutes then I'll open the floor to counselor statements each counselor will be given an opportunity to make a statement for up to two minutes and then we'll take a written ballot vote those of you in the room have paper ballots those of you you who are participating on Zoom can send an email with your vote um after I read each vote then I'll announce the results we need seven votes to elect a president if there's no winning nominee with seven votes then we'll repeat the process until we have a winning nominee are there any questions before I begin I'm G to open the floor for nominations oh sorry George please go ahead to whom do we send an email for those of us who are on Zo to me to you thank you thanks all right we're open for nominations councelor d'angeles I would like to nominate my friend and colleague ly grimer for president of the council uh councelor grimer do you accept I do are there any other nominations hearing none Lynn would you like to make a statement for up to two minutes thank you for honoring me with your nomination and thank you to each counselor for the many ways in which you participate in town events what is clear to me particularly in this last couple of years the public notices when we show up and the town staff also notices when we show up for events we have just completed six years of this form of government and as you are aware our 2024 Charter Review Committee is taking a hard look at the charter they are inviting our input and those of all residents as to what changes we should consider they should consider in their deliberations I am sure that each of you have thoughts about changes you would like to see or issues you would like to focus on in the coming year my list includes some of those items I mentioned in the past as well as some new items for example in the past and still committed to ways to make the job of the president the vice president committee chairs co-chairs and all the counselors more doable how how to effectively evaluate and prioritize issues as they are introduced to the coun and sub subsequently how to increase greater understanding of the issues the actions that the council may or may not take and the consequences of those actions adding to the list I include the following what do we as a Town Council want to accomplish in this second and last year of this term how can we approve improve our Communications with the public and as always how can we shorten our Council meetings some I do have some requests of you one is that you join us for agenda setting and if you can do that for the entire month so that you get a sense of the flow of issues and the discussion that goes on in agenda setting that you look at how you can contribute to shortening please wrap up your comments thank you done thank you uh councelor Walker I just noticed that you joined the meeting can you confirm that you can hear us and we can hear you yes thank you Athena thank you we're in the midst of electing a president we've already heard nominations uh councelor Grier was nominated and accepted the nomination she just finished her statement um I'm going to go around and ask counselors if they'd like to make a statement you'll have two minutes each uh before we take a vote since you're remote you'll just send me an email as your vote once we get to that point would any counselors like to make a two-minute statement councelor haniki please go ahead actions speak louder than words for six years counselors have talked about the need for change in leadership at all levels in order to maintain a healthy body we've even adopted policies that limit the number of years residents can serve on the planning board zba and finance committee to six yet for the last six years the council has had the same president every time a counselor has challenged the current president others have agreed that change might be good in theory but that the challenging candidate is just not ready or your time will come or it's not the right time to change each year including just now which was a rehash of last year's speech Lynn promises that she will do things different if reelected president councelors rely on those promises of changing practices and vote for her yet each year within a few weeks or months Lynn reverts back to her old ways then the next year she makes the same promises councelor fall for it vote for her and the cycle continues one year ago Kathy stated I think we need a change as we look to the coming year to be more inclusive sharing talks sharing representation that don't just need to be the president agenda setting much more extensive involvement the only representation Lynn shared was ceremonial done three years after her first promise to do so councilors were not invited to share representation at meetings with our elected representatives the bid chamber or others after February there was Nar an invite from Lynn to attend agenda setting Lynn said the words but her actions did not follow again change is healthy I want a council president who lives up to the promises she makes regarding the presidency and a president who shares representation and does not keep their 12 fellow counselors in the dark regarding content of meetings they attend as president that the rest of us aren't invited to a president who says they will be more transparent every year but does not change is not leading and counselors who say every year that they want change but then ignore the failure to keep promises and vote for the status quo are also not leading I will be voting for none of the nominated candidates it is not an obst ition but a formal vote against the nominated candidates councelor Shane I appreciate ly of service as president of this Council and I do believe um following the comments that were just made there have been changes in the last year in response to some of the things we've asked for there have been multiple times and and I can't say how grateful I am where items have been taken off an agenda when it was clear we were going to go till midnight if we didn't stop talking there's been much more of an attempt and I hope it will continue to look at what we have to achieve and only put one item on an agenda that's going to engender a lot of discussion either a lot of public comment or a lot of council discussion we need time to think we shouldn't be rushed and if it's a complex idea give it time we often have other things on the agenda which are not as time dependent so I think that's been a positive change I also very much appreciated Lynn deciding though she gets to a point to not be on the finance committee to give room for people who wanted to be on the finance committee and despite that she made the extra time commitment to attend almost all the meetings in the audience to listen because she was concerned and interested so I hope that's continues I will say that I think it's a symptom of other things going on that are broader than the presidency that the council doesn't get enough people who want to run for Council seats not just enough who want to take over presidency some of that is the amount of time and some of is the extent to which we can engage in debate and real discussion and I'll take the town manager goals which are coming up which need a lot of discussion and I hope hope we have time for that discussion we should all be trying to reach yes after discussion not try to push it discussion through so Lynn thank you for being willing to serve Another Year and thank you for listening thank you thank You councelor tab thank you um I had not planned to say anything but I feel like I need to respond to what the first comment um Lynn and I off of bring some different perspectives and we often don't have the same vote on issues but I do appreciate all the time and care that Lynn puts into leading the council and I I would like I think it would be healthy for there to you know be new leadership on the council but I don't see a lot of people stepping up and and Lynn does and Lynn puts in the time and the effort and you work very hard to be fair so I appreciate that and I I just want to thank you thank you thank you Council of Lord yes thank you first I apologize for my camera getting off being off I'm overcoming pneumonia and I'm a wreck so my camera off is to save y'all the image of what I look like right now but I just wanted um to uplift Lynn as president or president grimer um personally as a person who came into this Council so grateful to be able to serve and talk to the people in my district and all around ammer I also came in not knowing a lot and president gmer always will give me the time that I need to explain something to me um she never I never feel shamed or patronized because I might not know how local politics work as much as some people who've been in it for Generations so I support um president grimer today and in my tenure because she really met me human to human with compassion and and no shame that I don't know this but a willingness to say here here's the different things and here's some other resources if you want to learn more about it so um I also thank you for your willingness to run because I also don't see a lot of people um vying for this position cuz it's you know beyond a full-time job so I just wanted to put my two cents in and thank you very much would any other counselors like to make a two-minute statement before the vote seeing none please indicate your preferred candidate on your ballot the name or present or abstain and if you are virtual you can send me an email with your vote e I'm just going to read these in the order that I that I collected them rather than an alphabetical order yes I got waiting for one more counselor to email okay I'll read these as they came in councelor Walker abstains councelor Lord Grier councelor ET Greer councelor Ryan Grier councelor Grier geser councelor Shane Grier councelor Steinberg Grier councelor tab Grier councelor hegner Grier councelor Devin goth abstain councelor Rooney Grier uh councelor heni none of the candidates and councelor d'angelus Greer that concludes that ele so that's 10 votes for Lyn griesmer you've elected a president conrat thank you stand you Sly swear or adir to faithfully and impassionately perform all duties and coming upon you as president of the Town Council the town I do congratulations thank you thank you a I'm going to follow the same script uh so the floor is now open for nominations for vice president of the council Anna I would like to nominate councelor Ryan councilor Ryan do you accept the nomination yes are there any other nominations at this time okay councelor Ryan would you please yes I'd like to nominate Kathy Shane Kathy would you accept the nomination yes okay are there any other nominations okay uh we'll begin in the order in which people were nominated uh councelor Ryan would you please take your two minutes um I won't take two minutes but I I um do accept the nomination and hna thank you for that um today actually marks the fifth year of my service on the council and I think as all of you know there's a tremendous learning curve and while I probably would never feel ready um I feel like after five years this is something that I think I can do and I would be willing to do um I would promise or commit to attend every single agenda setting meeting and I would also seek to attend every other meeting to which the president is invited uh wherever that is possible I would also commit to being available to anyone at any time to talk about what I see and what I hear um I value collegiality I think I hope you all believe that and I think you also hope know that I'm someone you can talk to and that I'm open to your thoughts um I know I can work well with Lynn we have a good working relationship um I would take the job seriously and I would give it the time and attention it deserves thank you um Kathy Shane would you please take your two minutes um thank you for this opportunity to be vice president I actually had not thought a lot about it before I came in tonight um but I did several years ago this I'm completing six years on the council and I have not run for president ever because I didn't think I had enough time and I ran for vice president once but I do think this time around we have a series of legislative issues beyond the Town Council purview that's important for our legislators to hear about and also to start thinking what does the council really want to see so some legislative options and ly's opened up and Anna has laid a road for those regular meetings with Mindy and Joe and I think they're very important I think agenda setting is important as well and for those of you who watched me on the school building committee I like to be in front of audiences so to the extent I can if it's an issue I care about I'm more than willing to do it so I have learned how to chair when I need to but I also think the range of issues we deal with there's an opportunity to split up some of the responsibilities so I'm honored to be nominated thank you okay coun comments Anna so I have had the privilege and the honor to serve as vice president for the past three years and one of the things that became abundantly clear to me is for the health of this body we need to continue to vary our leadership we need to elevate voices into roles that have not been there before so that we do not become stuck so that we do not become put into a way of existing in a way of functioning that is personality dependent I nominated George because I've had the privilege of working with him on go for the past year and on the Council of course but having worked with George on go I have seen him show up with a very balanced approach despite not loving motioning to adjourn he does show up with a positive attitude um he contributes very health healthfully and helpfully to conversation and shows up regardless of how much he personally cares about one issue or another uh he shows up for them with the same amount of effort that 100% effort he's willing to shift his mind um he's willing he's not coming in set on something and he's willing to challenge uh me anybody else um when he feels that that challenge is necessary so um I believe that George will bring an organized and balanced approach I believe that he will challenge uh the president as needed um and as is helpful and I think that he will be able to open doors and Elevate the strengths and the voices of others he's stepped in and helped out um on go and on this coun in a variety of ways so uh we need that shift and I'm stepping aside and nominating George to to do that because I think that he's more than capable and will continue to promote um the well-being of this Council Pam thank you I nominated Kathy Shane because I have watched her now for three years and I have been extremely appreciative of the thoroughness within with which she does her homework and follows through um it has said that that she will fight hard for actions that are important to her but if it's outvoted or if the you know if she's basically if she's outvoted she will drop the drop the issue and move on it is not a lingering um um issue with her that said she is extremely impartial um brings a a huge range of information and knowledge from from her past life to everything that she does and I'm not sure I've ever um I haven't yet to bump into someone on this Council that does the homework that Kathy Shane does so I would strongly support her and um look for a a really good team with Lynn and Kathy um um representing often times different perspectives and therefore bringing um us into balance thank you Andy I hadn't been prepared to speak uh but now that we have two candidates um I feel compelled to I'm going to actually start with a quick thank you to Anna she has really um served the council well as vice president has been very active in providing leadership uh in many respects including through go as well as uh in making us think and work on the legislative issues in a variety of areas um so hna thank you um I think we have two very good candidates who've been nominated and I think that both of them would serve the council well and be supportive of um Lynn who we've just elected as president um and uh so in in that respect I think that we are very fortunate in the selection makes it very difficult to cast to vote when I was not prepared to have to knowing what was who's going to be nominated in poll um I am going to vote um for councelor Ryan but it's not a reflection on councelor Shane um I find that having worked with George for a number of years including his being um the vice chair of the committee that I'm currently chairing uh TSO has been very supportive has been um willing to take on the areas that um I felt that he was better working on and has been a very good leader when called upon uh within the committee and uh so I have great confidence in his ability this and which is not a reflection on U Kathy but uh it's Choice have to make thank you Jennifer thank you again I hadn't expected to speak again and I want to um uh Echo uh Andy in thanking Anna for her service and Leadership and she continues to will continue to be a leader on the council um I again my support for um Kathy is not a reflection um I'm I've enjoyed working on councilor Ryan who I've enjoyed working with very much on TSO um he works very hard and is very informed and always prepared but I um Kathy is in is extremely independent she has run for the council three times and I believe has always run independently and I think that that's important I think having a president and vice president um who are strongly supported and I think um closely associated with one of the political action committees I think it would be a better balance and I think we're if we're fortunate enough to have an independent you know a candidate who runs um independently who's willing to serve as vice president I think that would um that would serve the council well uh Kathy is independent she's not political um I really respect a straight shooter you're extremely intellectual and intellectually honest and Kathy looks at every issue and is incredibly um prepared um and informed and takes the position that she thinks is right and I always look to Kathy I know when I ask you for advice I'll get it'll be it won't be biased it won't be reflecting an agenda it'll be what you think is the right thing to do so that's who um again no reflection on um councilor Ryan but I will be casting my vote for Kathy Shane and think she will be a good balance to the current president Pat the Angeles thank you um two good candidates what can I say two really good candidates for a vice president um I am with no negative reflection on you at all Kathy because I have been amazingly impressed with you over the years and particularly ex respectful of the work you've done on the elementary school building committee um but I really um am asking you to all of you or as many of you as you can is to support councelor Ryan um you know he's diligent he's collaborative he's cooperative and while he is um he has strong opinions he really is able to listen and to um be affected by others arguments um he has been committed to service um his whole life and that's an amazing uh thing for any of us to uh be able to do to say that my job is to serve and if you hang out with George for a little while you go to with George or you go to listen to Tony trishka at the Drake with George you start to see the connections he's made across groups in the community you see him talking to business owners you see him talking to homeless people you see him uh really meeting um you know representatives from the library building committee or or state reps with an Equanimity and a Simplicity that I have I admire uh I've worked with him on go um he can be annoying because he's very very precise and very um clear about the kinds of changes we work on in go which uh lead to clear Clarity consistency and actionability vote for him okay are there any other comments at this time then please mark your ballots and Athena will be collecting them and she will tally the vote and if you are on Zoom please uh I mean if you are remote please send it to Athena pH he's stuffing The Ballot Box uh counselor Lord can you hear us I can okay can you send an email it says if that didn't work oh I thought I sent it let me double check oh yeah so it says technical difficulties but if you read further down did you receive something that says technical difficulties yes okay is that your vote in the body yes yes that's your vote okay thank you okay councelor Walker votes for Kathy Shane councelor ET votes for George Ryan councelor Lord abstains uh councelor hegner votes for Shane councelor Shane votes for Shane councelor Rooney votes for Shane councelor tab V votes for Shane councelor hanii votes for councelor Ryan councelor Steinberg votes for councelor Ryan councelor Devin gothier votes for Ryan and councelor d'angelus votes for Ryan that's one two three four five and five Lynn we have a tie you're missing one vote George voted for himself that's six it's six and five she voted for Kathy councelor Walker voted for Kathy it's six and five with one abstention Lynn that's a failing vote six and five because ly didn't vote it's six to five with one abstention that's a failing vote okay so would you like to cast a vote or we can do another round of voting there are 13 of us I as I have done in the past I have withheld voting because I would be fine with either one of you right so it's a failed vote we need seven right you need seven to elect a vice president so do you want to do another round you're gonna sure okay we're voting a second time so please peel in your ballots uh point of order yes I don't believe that's how the rules work I think you have to go through the nomination cycle again under the rules thank you okay so the floor is now open for nominations do people need to be re nominated yeah we start over Okay we start the process over uh Pam Rooney I would like to nominate Kathy Shane okay and Kathy do you accept and yes I'd like to nominate George Ryan and George do you accept yes I do okay do we do speeches again okay all right uh Kathy this time you will go first they have to speak again they can choose not to they can choose not to I I think I said everything that needs to be said okay thank you thank you George do you wish to say anything else no I think what I said stands thank you okay are there any other counselors who would are there any counselors who would like to speak at this time saying none then we're going to go ahead with our vote if you're a remote please make sure you send an email uh councelor Ryan voted for George Ryan councelor ET voted for George Ryan councelor Lord abstained councelor Walker voted for Kathy Shane councelor tab t voted for Kathy Shane councelor d'angeles voted for George Ryan councelor hanii voted for George Ryan councelor Steinberg voted for George Ryan councelor Grier voted for Ryan councelor Shane voted for councelor Shane councelor hegner voted for councelor Shane councelor hegner voted for councelor Shane councelor Rooney voted for councelor Shane and councelor Devon gothier voted for George Ryan seven George you have seven votes congratulations thank you George George would you please raise your right hand yes thank you do you swear or affirm to faithfully and impartially perform all duties Inc combing upon you as vice president of the Town Council for the town of ammer I do congratulations thank you thank you all I want to thank both candidates for being their willingness to put each of their names forward and just this is never an easy decision but I can remember on our very first time we ever voted we were here for like half an hour trying to break the tie um I also want to take an opportunity to thank Anna what I have appreciated most about Anna is her willingness to challenge me and she does it gracefully and she does it firmly and I hope that even though you are no longer sitting in the seat of Vice President you'll continue to to do that and I trust you will that won't be a [Laughter] problem um in addition to that later on you're going to hear that Anna is going to spend a little more time working with us on uh for formulating the retreat around the town manager goals um so uh Kathy I want to also thank you you're you are a trusted and dear colleague and uh the work that you have done on the school on the elementary school is coming home in a beautiful way that is unbelievable thank you so much um we are going to go now we are going to pause this meeting we are going to go into the public forum yes yes recess okay so the special this is a special Town Council and finance committee meeting it's a public forum on appropriate ations outside the annual budget um it is um and we will talk about what those items are in a moment uh so I'm calling the meeting to order on January 13th I've already gone through all of the things that I've said before so in the interest of time the meeting is called to order at 7:10 I do not see any change in counselors uh pardon me um B could uh Bob please call the finance committee meeting order one of the non- voting members is pres yes that's the next thing I'm going to go to so Bob hegner as chair of the finance committee please call the remaining members the finance committee please call it to order thank you yes the finance committee is is called to order uh Tom can you uh hear us I don't know if you're still there or not Tom Porter is on the committee um he's signed in earlier I think he's probably moved away um I'll just call him absent from now but if he can show up I we'll call him present okay thank you um so this is a public forum on the supplemental Appropriations it's and according to Charter section 5.6 the public form is called to provide the public with the opportunity to speak about any of the following Council orders in preparation for this I have asked Athena to prepare a slide which lists all of the orders as well as the by title and by number as well as the funding source and the amount so let's just go through those very briefly uh the first one is financial order uh FY 248b it is regarding sewer Enterprise funds and it's for 2, $250,000 the second is an order also for solid waste Enterprise funds and it's 20,000 the third is again sewer Enterprise funds for 575,000 and finally this group is an order for a sidewalk plow the original finance committee order was for $200,000 and the finance committee has recommended $140,000 and then finally there is a financial order that uh is regarding the track and field for the Amis pelum Regional High School that comes from CPA funds and that is $800,000 there are two people here present with us tonight that if need be they will answer questions as raised during the public forum and that and we want to thank both Bob parent uh who has worked closely on a number of the issues as well as actually um I'm sorry Guilford moing who has obviously represents four of these orders and also then Dave Zac who has been working diligently with all of our towns all four of the towns to get the track and field funded are there any other particular comments that either David or Guilford feel at this point they need to make no okay David not unless necessary thank you okay then uh the floor is open for public comment anyone wishing to make public comment who is in the town room please make sure you have signed up with Athena if you are in the audience and you would like to make public comment please raise your hand at this time Athena has anyone yes asked to make okay Vince o Conor yep come on up please please remember to state your name and where you live before you begin your comment uh point of order did you say two minutes or three minutes three thank [Music] you oh Vincent o Conor 175 Summer Street Department 12 the first step in solving the problem is to clearly State the problem for the past three years the manager's budgets delivered on May or 1 or thereabouts 56 of the way into that fiscal year have stated that no Surplus was anticipated these statements by the manager were clearly false any person familiar with Massachusetts Municipal Financial U fiscal management should know at the five six points in any fiscal year a municipality's fiscal manager has to know whether their Community is going to run a surplus or a deficit and its relatives side sides the effect of these surpluses minus whatever income was derived from restricted funds uh Investments was to significantly over tax am property tax payers not just for one odd year but for three consecutive years because taxing to the legal limit for money not needed for a given Year's operating and capital budget is essentially transferring money from property taxpayers bank accounts to our Municipal Bank account without the legal justification of voter approved dedic or a debt exclusion or a proper property proposition two and a half override to compound these injuries the manager then used the false statements in his budget to justify his cut to the last two Regional School budgets and to the FY 24 elementary school budget and now we have a situation where the Surplus for this this past fiscal year is essentially proposed to be restricted to uh Capital items the expenditure for Capital items just blatantly ignoring the the fact that this Surplus exists because the two School budgets were cut using the justification of these false statements and so I really object to the to the statement that we can only use this Surplus for Capital thing what this Surplus should be used is to make the schools whole for the cuts that were made in the past couple of years that were clearly not justified by the facts of the budget that were misstated by the manager in his budgets to the public and to the council thank you for your comment are there any comments additional Athena I don't believe that you wanted to speak to this item did you no nope that's it okay and there are no comments on Zoom we began this meeting at what time 711 714 okay so we should be F we've done we've fun thank you you for keeping the clock um that concludes public comment I'm going to go back to Bob hegner and ask if the Bob if you would check with the finance committee to see if there's any change in your recommendations uh I should point out that we uh all voted those who were present voted in favor of to recommend all of these uh with the provision that the the sidewalk Cloud amount was reduced to 140,000 as you say there um and uh is there anyone on the committee who wishes to change a vote Kathy you have your hand up Kathy Oh I thought I saw your hand I'm sorry you did see my hand but it was a comment not not in response to Bob okay thank you oh here's Tom hey Tom I I see your present now can you please uh just uh say present uh un unmute and say present so we can make sure that you can hear us and we can hear you I'm present thank you thank you thank you okay all right all right Lynn no one has changed their their vote okay so then uh I before I adjourn the public uh Forum Bob would you please adjourn the finance committee is there a motion to adjourn I move to adjourn the special meeting of the finance committee I'll second all right um I vote I Kathy yes Andy yes councelor anaki yes Jennifer no you're not um uh Tom and Alicia yes and Alicia sorry yeah you ating yes thank you okay so I move to adjourn the special the public forum are is there a second second Rooney thank you we're going to move immediately to a vote we'll begin with Pat deangelus I Anna delin gothier I councelor ET I Lyn grimer is an i councelor hanii i Bob hegner I councelor Lord I cam Rooney yes councelor Ryan hi Kathy Shane yes Andy Steinberg yes Jennifer to yes councelor Walker yes the me uh the public forum is adjourned and we're going to go back immediately to the council meeting thank you for joining us Tom if you'd like to say I'll move you into the attendees thank you okay um very briefly uh there is is our next meeting of the Town Council is at 6:30 on January 27th uh the CRC committee is continuing their hearing uh on un regarding University Drive overlay zoning on January 14th at 6:30 the other committees have not been scheduled and at later on in the evening we'll discuss how committee assignments will happen we're going to move now to General Public comment anyone wishing to speak who is in the town room please make sure you've signed up with Athena anybody who is in the uh on Zoom please raise your hand at this time if you would like to speak to P at public comment Athena how many people I have three signed up okay public comments are a matter within the jurisdiction of the Town Council residents are welcome welcome to express their views for up to three minutes the council will not engage in a dialogue or comment on matters raised during general public comment public comments are not reflective of the opinions of the council please note the clock and consistent with the three minutes the First Amendment broadly protects individual rights to address the government to speak and to express themselves including their right to say hateful and offensive things I am generally unable to shut those comments commenters Down Under the First Amendment to the US Constitution unless their level of speech Falls within an exception articulated by the courts such as fighting words true threats to a particular individual harassment of a particular individual or incitement of imminent Lawless activity if a question exists as to whether a public speaker particular speaker is engaging in unprotected speak I must defer to the principles of the freedom of speech we will recognize Speers speakers in the order in which they have signed up and we will begin in this case with zoom Martha Hanner please enter the room state your name and where you live Martha Hanner District 5 speaking as an individual Welcome to the New Year I hope all of you are doing well and ready for the new challenges it has been a full year since the solar bylaw was submitted to you for approval the legislature has now passed a new climate bill that includes solar array sighting and permitting the law allows local communities to regulate quote small clean energy generation facilities with a DC name plate capacity less than 25 megawatt where one megawatt rated name plate capacity corresponds to four or five acres of a solar array so we do need a local bylaw a new state organization will eventually formulate guidelines and regulations to follow but probably not before the end of 2026 it is important for us to have our bylaw in place now a good bylaw will give us leverage in negotiating these guidelines one of the requirements in section 23 is that a municipality must review and make a decision within 12 months and it must be a Consolidated review thus it is absolutely urgent that we prepare a clear and complete bylaw that will Aid the zba to facilitate the review process the new climate law is not 100% satisfactory our Senator cumerford has been actively involved and she will continue to persist in the new legislative session to get changes beneficial to our western Mass communities as well as well as interacting with the new state organization setting guidelines it will be to our real advantage to have our bylaw completed so that she can use it to help negotiate for our communities how should the council review a bylaw that requires some technical knowledge I would urge the council to set up a short-term ad hoc Council committee now to look at this solar bylaw with a fresh review in light of the town I mean of the state new law and you need to understand the state requirements call on Experts of necessary and conduct an informed review not just word smithing this bylaw is not a simple zoning Amendment the council owes it to our community to get the job done right and to get it done soon thank you thank you for joining us Martha we go to the uh Town room Trisha Martin Gomery thank you Mr Vandal well folks I am Trish Montgomery I've lived in the town for 43 years I live on Le street I'm also a business owner in town I have my own law practice that primarily focuses on Elder Law on estate planning I'm here today however as a member of the Council on agent and it's my understanding that the coun on Aging is due to have some construction or if you will upgrades in the next coming year so and I also know that budgets are very tight and and that there are other entities having construction and I am for you to keep on the list a number of the accessibility issues and due to time I'm going to speak to one this evening and the one I'm going to speak to is the community bathroom now I know for some if not all of you that sounds confusing Community bathroom what does that mean it means that it's a single bathroom area that one or more people can use at one time and by more people I mean there are folks with disabilities that need the assistance of a caregiver when they use the facility and if the caregiver or the person needing assistants are not of the same gender it's a problem when you have to use the facilities so a community bathroom is essential now disabled people aren't the only folks that need a communal bathroom if you have a mother or a father with a different gender child that too is an issue beyond the age of three or four and a communal bathroom I a bathroom in which the mother or father or grandparent pick whoever's caring for the children or child it would be almost necessary for them to have a bathroom where they can bring one more child while either they go to the bathroom or multiple children need the facilities so so it's not just an a disabled person's issue um most places now are leaning toward communal only bathrooms for the reasons I just mentioned now there are also folks of different shapes and different sizes that find it easier to use a communal bathroom than a little stall or even the handicap store so I can't tell you the number of times I waited out the quote handicap so while everybody else uses it because there's more space it's more comfortable it's more convenient so I ask you not to distract that from the proposed renovations to the bank center I also imploy you to also include additional accessibility issues in the plans if there's money right now I know that the communal bathroom is definite but that's not the only issue that appeared there are other things on the list that for folks with disabilities or movement impairments or aren't the typical male and typical female need now I'd like to take a moment to with respect to the communal bathroom or any bathroom I often can get in we can push the door open so we need you to wrap up please if there not enough space for the wheelchair to get to the left from the door to pull the door open I'm stuck there until somebody comes to use the B just we want to thank you for taking the time to come and share with us the challenges that you face my pleasure but again remember it's not only to table people that need these pains thank you thank you for your comments thank you no we don't comment great um we will go to Maria kapiki please enter the room state your name and where you live thank you you Maria kapiki South amist before you took a vote over a year ago to authorize the town to be responsible for more than $46 million of borrowing for the library building project you including the finance committee held multiple meetings to discuss the fiscal implications of that decision unfortunately several town and Library leaders kept information from you before that vote about violations of historic preservation standards and the subsequent rejection of million of historic tax credits and also about the need for a rigorous and timeconsuming section 106 process required for another $2 million in federal funding you were still being kept in the dark about all this six months ago when you were only one vote shy of stopping this project we are now two extensions later from the mblc and the project remains in disarray the section 106 process still has a long ways to go more bidding will be required the contingency is already being consumed before the project can even start and the deadline for the general contractor bids is upon you meanwhile fundraising remains many many millions dollar millions of dollars short far more than the endowment of the library in its entirety you have an obligation as The Keeper of the purse to take action now you have to acknowledge that there is a possibility really a probability that the library will not be able to make up the difference in funding and you have to understand what the consequences will be in that case now I know that you're going to hear about oh the town is only on the hook for $15.8 million well let's think about that the difference between secured funding right now and the alleged 46 million which is probably going to go up is 11.5 million so you can just add that on to the 15.8 million we're talking about the town being responsible for 27 million even if the library comes up with the pledges that they are supposed to have and with $2 million from section 106 you're still talking well over $20 million you cannot get blood from a stone if the library doesn't have the money they can't give the town the money you need to do a thorough analysis of the fiscal situation and failing to do your job will not absolve you of responsibility for the consequences of that inaction thank you thank you for joining us uh we'll go back to the room Dennis bandal hello there hi uh good evening I'm Dennis Vandal I'm a property owner and resident of ammer at 173 Columbia Drive I'm also the vice chairman of the town's Council on Aging and I'm also the president of the FRS of the ammer senior center I hope you saw a recent story in the ammer current uh website entitled A Tale of Two senior centers written by Nick grab I was asked for comment for that story and I was also asked to provide a few photos so I made a special trip to uh with my camera to take uh to look around and take a few pictures and what I found was honestly disappointing and disturbing it is a facility that has not kept up with the times or the community's needs at all I was surprised to see deteriorating wall board absorbing moisture from a malfunctioning industrial dishwasher I saw the trap on a sink drain that had obviously been leaky for months if not years I saw $155,000 worth of EX exercise equipment Gathering dust for no reason that I can see ammer for a long time has enjoyed a reputation as a jewel in the Happy Valley it provides it it uh it Prides itself for its aggressive inclusive politics and it's transparent to the max form of government but when it comes to the senior center amorist has become a disappointment as a member of the Council on Aging I now often hear negative comments about the senior Center's lack of free parking lack of space for events and programs lack of exercise facilities and its lack of Staffing to meet the needs of amorist growing elder population there is no question in my mind that the needs of amorist senior population has taken a back seat to so many other competing interests I blame I place the blame for this squarely on your shoulders as members of the Town Council I hope the renovations of the bang Center will finally put the senior the entire Senior Center on a single floor the same floor where it's located right now and I also hope that we will finally see a kitchen facility eventually that will be clean and safe to use I hope to see an exercise room that will be open and available for use we can't afford to lose a single penny of the arpa funds designated for the renovation of the bank center we can't afford it especially when we consider how many years the needs of seniors have been neglected because of budget cuts in past years along with very negligible increases in more recent years that concludes my mark remarks thank you very very much for your time thank you for joining us Dennis is there one more person Vince o Conor okay again vinel Conor 175 Summer Street Apartment 12 um and the members of the council have u a printed statement entitled revising ammer Charter to democratize library and school funding and let's read from the opening paragraphs the following proposed addition to the ammer home Rule Charter conformed to the restrictions in section 4 parentheses 2 of amendment 89 to the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts which reads any change in a charter relating in any way to the composition mode of election or appointment or terms of office of the legislative body the mayor or city manager or the board of Select or town manager shall be made only by the by the in in grow Charter commission by petition procedure of Charter revision set forth in section three I read this because um with regard to Charter revisions exaggerated statements are made about what can be done um and what will require a petition and a charter commission by petition those requirements are very limited as you can see uh in section two reason I propose these is because one I I've watched primarily the school committee members who spent a year on their budget reduced to the status of ordinary citizens by the manner in which they have have to approach the finance committee and the council they are simply other citizens regardless of the fact that they've been elected and they get two or three minutes to speak to their budget and have to sit silently while people quite frankly who have not spent the entire year on the school budget speak about their budget this is not tolerable um my view is that both the library trustees and the school committee should sit with the council to vote on the respective budgets of their organizations and that with respect to any finance committee consideration of either the library or School budgets that two at least two members of that of those organizations should sit with the F finance committee as full voting members and that there be an individual selected by the various School committees or the library trustees to accompany them as a nonvoting member the only way we are going to bring the school budget to the realistic con consideration of the council not just what the manager says and the amount he says but the actual involvement um is not to require that the councilors all attend the school committee hearings that's not realistic I don't think that would happen you have many other things to do and many other meetings to attend we need you the way to the way to do that is to bring those elected individuals into the process of voting as happens in 300 other Massachusetts communities that have Town meetings without any detriment to the elected leadership otherwise thank you for joining us that concludes public comment um we are going to move to the consent agenda uh the following items were selected because they were I'm going to ask the town the clerk of the Town Council to please put the consent agenda up on the board so that people can understand where we are the following items were selected because they were considered to be routine and it was reasonable expect they would pass with no controversy to remove an item from the consent agenda for discussion later in the meeting ask that it be removed although I do want to point out we have an opportunity to discuss each of these items regardless of whether we vote them now or not the request to remove an item from the consent agenda does not require a second okay um to move the following items and the printed motions there under and approve those items as a single unit 6A adoption of 2025 Reverend Dr Martin Luther King Jr Day Proclamation 8B referral of appropriation and transfer order FY 25-5 and Order appropriating funds for a portion of the town of amorist capital program roads and sidewalk repairs to the finance committee 8C appropriate approval of appropriation transfer order FY 25- 04b and order appropriating a supplemental increase to the town of amerur Enterprise fund operating budget for FY 2025 8D approval appropriation transfer order FY 25-4 C an order appropriating the supplemental increase of the town of armmer solid waste Enterprise fund for fy2 5 8A approval of appropriation and transfer order FY 25-5 05b and Order appropriating funds for the town of Amber sewer fund Capital program uh sewer collection system wastewater treatment pH and chlorine studies and additional costs associated with the gravity belt thickener project 8f Council appro appropriation and transfer FY 25-5 C and Order appropriating funds for a portion of the town of ammer capital program sidewalk equipment AG Community preservation act appropriating and borrowing authorization for order FY 25-8 08a in order appropriating and authorizing debt for construction of the reoriented track and field facility known as option 3C at the Amis pelum Regional high school and 11a approval of minutes December 2nd 2024 regular meeting Kathy I have a a question and a comment one is on 8f the uh sidewalk equipment um the finance committee had recommended 140 is that the amount that's in the order because it was not the amount that was shown on the screen earlier Athena the fin committee recommended a reduction in that amount you know and so in the motion on the motion sheet there's an amendment included in the motion to adopt the financial order I couldn't change the order based on finance committee's recommendation but it is included in the motion as an amendment okay so it's for 140 for 140 yes and then I have a comment on HG that I don't think requires um it to be removed but I just would like the public to know that 800,000 for track and field is part of a another 3.7 million so we're talking about a project that's at about 4.5 million including fees and design fees so this is not all of it and so I just want that's in the finance committee report but I want people to understand this is a piece of it and other towns are also contributing yes and we'll have an opportunity to hear more about that when we get to that item even if we vote this okay um George I'm sorry Ryan so you may have answered my question um I do have some questions about 8f and as long as we're going to have a discussion and I can raise those questions then I I don't have anything to add is that true we will have a chance so you're not asking for it to be removed well as long as I understand that we'll have a chance to talk about it um I don't want it approved without some sort of discussion okay it I think we should remove it thank you I am going to remove ad ad thank you yeah I think that's wise okay so all of them stay except for 8f is there any further question or comment or request to remove seeing none we're move to a vote there a second I think we need a motion I'm sorry did you make a motion I did make the motion is there a second is there a second I'll second thank you um um all right motion's been made and seconded we've removed one item will'll begin with Anna Devin gothier hi councelor ete I Lyn grimer I councelor hanii I Bob hegner I councelor Lord I Pam Rooney yes councelor Ryan hi Kathy Shane yes Andy Steinberg I Jennifer to yes councelor Walker yes P Pat Angels hi it's unanimous uh so with that we're going to move on to um uh the reading of the Proclamation and and we're not going to read the whole Proclamation but I have asked Anna to read the last two paragraphs thank you as one of the sponsors now therefore we the ammer Town Council do hereby Proclaim January 20th 2025 as a day to recognize and remember the Reverend Dr Martin Luther King Jr and the dreams and ideals for which he stood be it further proclaimed we the amris Town Council encourage amorist residents to observe this holiday not only by reflecting on Dr King's Legacy but also by actively serving others in the pursuit of community and Justice let the town of amorist reflect upon its commitment that all people are able to live his dream okay thank you and please note that we there are various activities going on including the food drive and the addressing of cards Etc okay uh so we're going to move on to there are no discussion items we're going to move on to action item 8B and I'm on I'm looking now to see if there's any hands of people who would like any further discussion even though we have already voted on this on consent whoops I didn't mean to raise my hand okay seeing none I'm going to go on to the next one this is F Financial order F I mean Council order FY 254b are there any further discussion required on that one I'm sorry I'm just asking for each of them if there's any further discussion I guess I don't know why when we approved the financial orders so I I did promise that if anybody had any questions but we can skip over d and e and move on to F and F was removed from the agenda I mean from the consent agenda so um the following motion therefore has to be made having being held a public forum on January 13th 2025 and in receipt of a report from the finance committee on December 12 2024 to approve appropriation and transfer order FY 25-5 C and Order appropriating funds for a portion of the town of ammer capital program sidewalk equipment as shown on page 16 of the motion sheet as amended by reducing the appropriation amount to $140,000 is there a second second ruin are there any further questions George yeah this one sort of puzzled me and I I guess maybe I just need a just a more clarification from the finance committee um there's a machine that apparently does multiple things that would cost a bid more um and then there's a machine that just does snow removal and I think this point was made at the last discussion um that I'm ass sure tomorrow there'll be a snowstorm but um you know this is I'm I'm trying to understand why we're not getting a machine that can do multiple tasks rather than getting a machine that can only do one thing and something that perhaps over the next few years is going to be less and less in demand um is a case of being penny Pennywise and pound foolish so I I I read the finance committee report and um I didn't get a sense of of why this is the better uh strategy other than it's cheaper so if somebody could just help me why understand why not not only is this cheaper but it actually makes sense even though the machine can only do one thing so before I go on to um uh DPW superintendent Morin I'm going to ask the finance committee chair if you have any further comments on this item well I'll let I'll let uh Guilford uh explain things but the way my understanding was that both pieces of equipment uh could were appropriate for uh for doing the clearing the the sidewalks the $200,000 machine was uh more flexible in that it had additional uses outside of the season um the snow the snowfall season however the As I understood it the $140,000 equipment was sitting on a on a you know on on a on a you know sitting sitting at the dealership and could be acquired immediately so that was part of our also rationale for why we wanted to do that but Gilford if you wanted to add anything to that please go ahead Gilford yes first I apologize I seem to have confused people in the two machines the $200,000 machine only does one thing that machine is made for plowing sidewalks it's a track machine it it's it's basically a very small snow gromer um but it is the one the more expensive machine only does one thing the $140,000 machine can do multiple things it's basically a mini loader so it has a loader bucket and then it can have a snow plow and then it can have a snow blower so it is that is the more versatile machine um the drawback to that machine is there are storms where it struggles whereas the $200,000 machine is just a beast and it'll plow to just about any snowstorm you have so those are the two difference we are actually buying a multi-use machine that will'll have be able to do the most of our work especially since we're having such a great snow season this year um it should be fine um I hope that clarifies it and I apologize if I confused the two machines earlier George you have your hand up that clarifies it absolutely and Gilford your job is to make sure that we don't have any more serious snow storms for the next at least next 10 years okay are there any further comments or questions so I've made the motion and we need a second I second Ryan second it okay thank you um we're going to move then to a vote councelor ET I ly griman is an i councelor hanii i Bob hegner hi councelor Lord hi Pam Rooney yes councelor Ryan hi Kathy Shane yes Andy Steinberg all Jennifer to yes counc Walker yes Patti Angeles hi H dein goth here hi it's unanimous we did we did suggest that when we got to the track and field there might be a little bit more um although we did vote this on consent David are there any additional information you'd like to provide us at this time uh thanks Lynn I think the only information that may not completely up to date is is we have been successful at securing funding from two of the Hilltown communities in the region um I think most people realize we we did get funding $110,000 in funding from pelum and then shutesbury voted $136,000 toward the project and then we are awaiting more action by the CPA committee um in the town of lever and we hope that they will recommend the project to down meeting in the spring uh of this year thank you Bob is there any more finance committee yeah I just I just wanted to um add my appreciation for Dave and his uh group that um they really worked hard on this and um came up with some a plan that um is flexible the there are parts of this that if the budget does not allow we can postponed to a later time they've already figured out what what can happen you know what we can do now that uh what you know there's some uncertainty about the final cost of all this and um I was someone who was actually skeptical of this project when it was first um proposed um and I think I I certainly came around to realizing that this was the right thing to do and um we have a a a really good project we have flexibility that if we run short of cash we can we can postpone certain things um and we can always add to it uh you know this isn't going to be the the the be all and do all um the only concern I have is maintenance of the facility and we've discussed this with with with uh David and and and the the crew um I I the the field itself will be Turf and will be a multi purpose field and in inclement weather that can be very vulnerable so we're going to have to have someone responsible for maintenance of the of this field and someone who has the authority to say hey nobody can use this field for a week uh so but but that aside um that that really has nothing to do with the project per se it has to do with the fact that it's a turf field so just everyone needs to understand that this field may not be a available from time to time because of inclement weather but um it's basically I think the best thing we we can do uh and it's got the support of most I think three of the four towns already have given it support all the towns have given some support um but the um you know we're just a waiting the final I guess the final approval from one of the four towns thank you uh councelor Ryan I just want to Echo Bob's point that this is definitely the right thing to do um it's been long overdue it it will serve a very important community that often is is seems to be left out in the cold um and it encourages me that sometimes though it takes a long time at times it we eventually do the right thing um I think Bob makes a good point about maintenance um that's something we need to be be attentive to but I um this makes me feel good I'm glad it's happening thank you you Kathy picking up on the maintenance theme I agree with their previous comments it's nice to see this project moving I've heard from now from multiple sources including when we were discussing the fort riverfields that there's not a clear designation and delineation of who's responsible for what and we've got the rec department DPW and the schools sometimes over swss of narrow land that are abing each other and I know Paul at one point said the new superintendent is trying to get some real agreements like let's have who's responsible one of the things we heard from the new group that came in to start to give us estimates is there are Drainage Systems next to the track when they dug a little but no one had bothered to clean them out so they weren't draining anything we don't want that to happen again you know that that the track was getting water on it where it didn't need to we thought there was no drain and they said there actually was drainage they were just clogged so it it's going to be have to be high on the radar screen not low on who's responsible for what the the last thing and I I've mentioned this a couple times in discussi with UMass they have artificial turf fields that are practice fields that aren't used very often maybe we could get permission to be using those in heavy rainfall just for practice if we need to ammer college has them also but UMass has a whole bunch tucked away way over by the track and when you walk by them they're often not used so just thinking of ink kind service to the town there are fields in town this doesn't need to be the only one okay thank you Andy yes um I think this is the right thing to do I'm pleased that we are where we are with the process now I wanted to just take take a few seconds to thank the community preservation act committee because they worked really hard on this and without their U creativity in finding a way to work that's within the budget and uh projecting into the future because it requires uh U multiple years for payment for funding um I you know it was really a good piece of work and so I thought want to thank the committee thank you so much um Lynn could I just add one other comment please um first of all thank you all for your support and and certainly to the to the various committees uh across the multiple towns that have supported this project um we are talking uh regarding the maintenance issue we are talking to the region and the superintendent and uh DPW about what you know what are the plans what is the plan for maintaining the track the field in the middle of the track and then the field that will be created to the west of that so that is very much uh on our radar screen um we're also talking about swing space with the region and with the town uh our goal is to have this uh facility under construction in June right after school uh is concluded we're talking with the ad about what will need to be adjusted in terms of schedules and and um usage in the fall because we will still under construction in the in the fall of 25 so thank you all I also wanted to just say you know I'm often the one at meetings out front on some of these projects but really I just wanted to give a lot of credit to Bob parent he's on this call without the guidance and and work that Bob has done with our consultant SLR uh we wouldn't be where we are so Bob deserves a tremendous amount of credit um he he works closely with the engineering firm the Lance Cape Architects uh with with everybody on every detail of the project as well as the funding package that we've put together and he'll be right there with us as we bid this and as it's constructed so really so much of the credit uh really belongs to Bob and the SLR team so just wanted to thank you I think we want to say thanks to both of you and also to the CPA committee and to other other other community ities that are stepping forward on this project um are there any other comments with that I would like to suggest we take a 10minute break we'll reconvene at 8:15 please turn your video off and your sound and when you come back turn your video back on thank you e e e e good e e no e e e e e e e e e e e we need to reconvene folks as you return Please turn your picture back on as you return Please turn your video on so I know you're back Pat I know you're back Pam I know you're back George counselor Lord councelor ET present hi councelor Lord are you back he yes I am back thank you so much um hang in there okay uh our next item on the agenda is a request for an easement by eversource for around the Fort River site and uh I'm going to make the motion and and then seek a second but then we're going to have a brief discussion or a brief um presentation if you will about what this is all about okay uh to approve an order authorizing the conveyance of a permanent utility easement on Town property as shown on page 18 to 19 of the motion sheets is there a second shange seconds thank you Paul I'm turning to you and then you can decide who else to bring in okay thank you Lynn yeah so I'm going to turn it over to Bob parent our capital projects manager who's been working through the elementary school project um just for reference we had our kickoff meeting ear last week and um this is a um request for the council that we've had queued up based on waiting for us to sign the contract so Bob do you want to talk about what the request is it's a pretty straightforward request but it deserves an explanation certainly thank you Paul um as Paul indicated it's a very straightforward request anytime you a the utility company like eversource installs an underground service line to service facility like the Fort River School they request an easement so that they can not only install the underground service line but maintain the service line in the in the future and they also do also seek some protections that the owner of the property doesn't build something over the top of the easement or doesn't do anything that in any way interferes with that underground utility line so that's that's really what this is all about is creating an area within the property that is there for the purpose of the underground utility line but also um is available to the town for other utilities for instance uh part of the underground water and sewer lines are going to be installed within that that same location as well so it doesn't prohibit the town from using it but it just prohibits the town from using it in a manner that might in in any way impact the electrical line that's going into the school and it's feeding actually two separate Transformers one Transformer that will be installed near the existing Maintenance building that'll serve the canopy mounted uh PV facility and then a second Transformer adjacent to the building that'll be serving uh the building and the PV system on the building itself um so as Paul indicated pretty straightforward but something that's necessary and something we're really trying to move forward as fast as we can because um staying at the front of the eversource queue is very important these days there is a a worldwide shortage of electrical Transformers of the size that are needed for this project and we don't want to give eversource any reason to let this project slip down in the queue and not be as high as we possibly can to get what what's needed to put the the project in in service um thank you are there questions from the council yes councelor Han just a couple um thank you for pointing out the I had noticed it too the fact that we can't build on the easement is a driveway okay because that's kind of building on if we're Paving over it so just making sure that it's not going to impact any of the actual plans of the the that are you know the building plans that we've already sent out to build and sign a contract of and number two um is this an exclusive easement I noticed it includ includ both eversource NSTAR and NSTAR DVA eversource but it also includes Verizon New England um which kind of surprised me that it included both but is it exclusive or if some other utility company needs to get in there to provide lines through that area um since it is a pretty wide easement location would we be able to Grant a non-exclusive easement to to some other entity utility entity too so relative to your first question absolutely constructing the driveway on top of the utility easement is is appropriate and in fact is of benefit uh both to the town and to the utility owner as well because it allows them to to more readily access the utility um easement or utility if it's needed to be maintained in the future um it's just we can't build any structures on top of it um that would prevent them from from physically accessing the the utility um on the second question um at the moment um we have rights to install utilities this easement doesn't provide any rights for any unnamed parties other than the town and those parties named in the easement um if there was a plan for something else in the future I assume we could discuss it with eversource and you know providing it didn't impact the eversource uh line wouldn't expect they would have a concern um but they would have to consider it and understand it before U they'd be willing to to work with us on that okay any further questions okay uh Kathy I am totally for the project and my I have a comment that's sort of a question Bob it seems to me we could have asked we could have brought this before the council earlier was there some reason we delayed it um because I agree we need to have that and um it looks to me like it's completely in line with the design plans we had the the the design team had already plan that there would be these lines so now it's just the eversource side so that's a question statement so it's just did we have to wait till we sign the contract could we have done it earlier but can we get it done and ever horse knows right now cuz we always need needed these Transformers thanks certainly in hindsight we might have been able to move it forward a month or two earlier we have been working with eversource for months now working with their attorneys in terms of the language of the easement working with their technical staff in terms of the layout of the easement and how much space is necessary and that process did take quite some time it also took some time um the town had to retain a surveyor to preate create the plan that you see here that took some time as well but uh we probably could have got a month or two head start on this I I would agree thank you Pam thanks um I'm hoping that this precludes the need for overhead power lines uh something that we typically like to reduce as much as possible and the and so the question is will we still see overhead power lines on this on this site um secondly is the the Transformers then belong to the town or is this uh eversource property once it's put in do they maintain it or do we the the second part the Transformers are owned and maintained by eversource for the benefit of the town which is actually a a good thing the town really doesn't want to own the Transformer we're not in the Transformer business we want utility to purchase it for our benefit maintain it for our benefit so it's available and useful um I lost the first part of your your question now just do do we get to avoid um overhead power lines power P Lin yes we do all the all the utilities on the project are underground utilities um starting with with this electrical service so yes there won't be okay are there any other questions uh before we take a vote Bob again we want to thank you for your diligent attention to these kinds of details um I know that the committee appreciates you as well um so thank you Andy yeah I guess I did have one additional question um I don't know where the other end of the line is and uh I was wondering if they're also going to have to come back to the council ask for any EAS that involves the West common Bob I don't believe they anticipate this at this point I believe uh directly opposite this is the old Southeast Street or old East Street um and all the work from this point to the West would be within the town right of way okay all right any further questions see none the motion's been made and seconded we'll begin the vote we begin with myself Lyn grimer as an I councelor hanii hi Bob hegner I councelor Lord come back um I'm G to come back for her pamaron yes uh councelor Ryan hi Kathy Shane yes Andy Steinberg hi Jennifer to yes counselor Walker yes damn paty Angeles i h Devin goth here hi councelor ET hi and councelor Lord hi thank you it's unanimous um the next is uh I'm going to call on the finance committee this is with regard to the dep Department of Public Works placement and the South fire the fire station South of downtown locations and financing uh model um Bob I'm G to call on you um so we we uh discussed this uh quite some quite a bit and decided that we did not really need to choose select a model at this particular point in time we lean towards I guess models what were they two and four or three one and three I can't remember uh anyway we we we two and three two and three two and four yeah uh so basically it was um the the features we liked were um the 10 and a half% of the uh of the maintaining the 10 and a half% of the um Levy going towards uh towards uh infrastructure um we do um the the the the the big difference between the two models was um really the the the speed at which we um we the amount of money we would borrow versus um the amount of money that we could fund out of cash capital and we decided that it really wasn't at this point necessary to pick between these two models because we could re-evaluate as we go along can we you know how much can we afford to borrow how much can we afford to pay out of cash Capital so we'll probably be some sort of hybrid of the two uh by the time we actually get to it but the the the the features we did not like about model one I think was the fact that we reduced the the um Levy the percentage of Levy to 10% and what we didn't like about three was we delayed too long the we delayed some of the project um into the future so we we just didn't think at this point we we don't need to kick the can down the road anymore we need to go forward with these projects get them done and figure out how we're going to pay for them so I think we we we didn't actually vote on this but I think there was consensus on the committee that this was the way to go forward and we wanted to go forward with the the DPW uh facility uh the way it was described which you'd have it you know sort of distributed around the town in various locations and the fire station at Hickory Ridge which I think we were asked to uh to do that um by the the council anything else anybody else want to so in other I just want to be clear you're not putting forward a motion with regard to the model but what I think we do want to make sure is are we putting forward a motion that basically identifies the two sites as proposed okay Finance never discussed the sites and whether it supported that part those particular sites for those things at all we were only referred the financial model you were that's correct okay um did you have another comment you had your hand up earlier let me question okay Kathy Lyn as as Bob said Finance was asked to look at the financing models we weren't specifically asked to look at the locations our sense from the council discussion before this was referred to us is that we were all fine with these two locations you know and that the plan to move ahead particularly on DPW should should begin so if you need to separate that motion into two on a vote for the site we were assuming those were the sites when Finance was discussed ing the one thing I want to add to what Bob said is we were all worried that 3 million for everything else was likely too low and when asked like three and a half or four we said well we can interpolate between them um and think of what the number should be but part of the issue of how much cash we have is we don't have to stay at 10% in the general stabilization fund as Shan a while ago we could draw it down to the 5% so it's not just the capital stabilization fund there's other money and that those are getting replenished over time so that's waiting for a year getting getting moving on a schematic design so we know the actual price with one makes sense to us rather than focusing on the model because the model is going to have to be adjusted by um both um how much money we have at the close of this fiscal year in terms of decisions the other point and I think it's in the finance committee report but we talked a lot about it that the JCP process The Five-Year Plan needs to really focus on not just year one but all five years we need to have a really good sense of the Urgent projects coming up first year and SE several others um so that we make sure we have space for them schools are one of them um and we in the past having been on jcpc for several years the focus has been on year one and we didn't ask a lot of questions about 2 three four and five in terms of the projects we look we had a list of them but really make sure these are high level urgency projects because now we're in a competing for funds because jcpc doesn't look at these two buildings the buildings are pushed off into some other place so so we had a discussion on that a much um that requires staff to come with more information and a a focused look on all five years in the context of getting these two buildings going okay Pam thank you um I appreciate that the the conversation has gelled around the locations for fire and and DPW you um I I could be really wrong cuz my memory lapses at times but I don't recall ever really seeing a like a townwide map that that really pins down what we're talking about in terms of DPW distribution similarly we have since we purchased hicky Ridge talked about a master plan for that property and I have seen zero Master planning for Hickory Ridge and yet we have now decided that maybe this is the best place for the fire station we have never seen any options for you know what else might be at Hickory Ridge or how much space something needs or um um you know what are the what are the competing needs or uses of that property so it's this lack of sort of explanation um and I know we're really good at this we keep talking about something until it just basically gains enough traction to become the decision without really having a thorough discussion and I and I would appreciate I really do not want to vote on you know maybe we maybe we vote on do we have a distributed model for DPW as opposed to a single site maybe uh you know a presentation on that would be very helpful I might be very comfortable with that that decision um but that's about as far as I want to go in terms of committing to voting on a location tonight Jennifer um yes I also I was going to ask this question but when the town manager uh gave his report because he talked about forming two committees to you know plan for the DPW building and the new fire station and a number of people have written to the council um who are you know have knowledgeable and have Municipal um administrative backgrounds you know suggest asking if we'd ever considered locating the two facil new facilities on the same site and maybe they could you know that that might even be a way to streamline costs and I thought that was something that perhaps the two building committees maybe they would meet together that they could address so I also didn't think it was a I I guess I saw DPW more being you know because that we were that it was recommended that it be primarily located at the current location but that I didn't think the fire station was a done deal um okay we're gonna compile some questions um councelor hanii so I understand that the manager would like us to make a decision on this because we can't move forward unless we make a decision um and we did have a presentation last council meeting maybe or two Council meetings ago but there wasn't a lot of information provided and there wasn't a lot of time to discuss it um and it seems like now tonight we didn't get any additional information we did ask questions very few because we didn't have much information even before we got that presentation and we didn't get additional information tonight so I guess I'm operating with I'm not sure what we're being asked to do tonight um but I do have a question I know there is some concern of locating the fire station as far south as Hickory Ridge I know we need to build a DPW building and I know we need to build a fire station and I know we need to do that soon but could we put DPW at picker Ridge to alleviate the concerns about the fire station being so far south um I know previous studies on the fire station have indicated that pomoy might be too far south in terms of Ideal or not um and I just don't know the acreage of the two sites is the DPW current site acreage similar SAR in size to the Hickory Ridge size and if they are have we ever considered swapping the two out so that the fire station goes to DPW it would also solve the spring swing space issue because you could build DPW at Hickory Ridge while it's still operating at its current location and then once DPW opened the fire station could then be built at the DPW where it has always originally been had um so was that ever considered um and what was the result of that consideration and would is that a decision that would need to be I mean presumably that's a decision that would need to be made soon but I bring it up let's collect um any other comments and then I'm going to ask the town manager to speak um Pat please use your microphone quick yes I'm sorry um when Chief Nelson was in uh here and was our fire chief he made uh several uh had several conversations with Council over a few years uh about Hickory Ridge being as far south as you could go and that it was safe and that it actually was a very flexible space particularly because it had access from East Hadley Road and stuff like that for other areas in town and he's he was an incredible um tactician in ter terms of fighting fire and stuff so I feel very secure and relying on his recommendation I also uh and my memory is not the best but I remember um Dave Zac doing presentations about Hickory Ridge um over many over the years but the last one being uh with the fire station being there with the possibility of a community building being there so that was presented to the council and I think we've done some talking about this um I don't know so I just wanted to say those thing I'm gonna look to Paul I think the real question Paul is what decisions do you need made so I think councelors are asking legitimate questions and you clearly don't have enough information to weigh in and you'd like to see a little bit more um uh Clarity in terms of what the options we can go through that and get a presentation for you uh at a future meeting I think you know I think Dave Zac is ready and always willing to prepare a presentation on Hickory Ridge and what the status is of that um you know I think I had um for councelor top I had talked about one committee actually a joint committee for tpw and fire which is what we had before uh I would seek to have with your reorganization ask the council to start thinking about having two members of the Council on that committee uh in case who ever split them and have two different committees that be two counselors who have representation there um and then have other people who have uh uh knowledge of the building industry and you know things like that so I want to move forward with getting that committee set up it takes some time so I I intend to start to move on that start to solicit membership the council can start talking about members for itself um and I think at a future meeting I'm not sure we going have it ready for the your next but in February at least um do more of a broader presentation about addressing some of the questions you're address you you asked about like what does a distributed model look like um you know the the location on West pomoy um uh was one of the three options that were listed in the in the in the study that was done by the town 10 years ago um and but also the new fire chief you know I've asked him to to study up on it and so he can bring his judgment we we I know I knew where um uh Chief Nelson stood um and uh Chief stren has um you know we've had conversations and he wants to educate himself on uh the needs and things like that so I think it's fair to give him some time to look at this as well so um I think putting this on a future agenda sooner than later um so that we can get to a uh decision point and we start moving on on at least one of these projects we have to get moving on them and I think I think Council has made it very clear to me that it's time to get moving on them through your goal setting process so that's what I'm trying to do are there any other requests of the Town manager in terms of that uh future meeting and presentation if so please let Kathy I I think I think they've already been mentioned but just the acreage that PW is currently on and how much can be built on so what I heard maybe 5 years ago or six years ago when we started this that they're built for nearer to the water than they probably could buil be built today in terms of how much of that land and we asked really at the very beginning could both of them be there and the answer was no there's not just not enough acreage but Paul I just think we need to see that like how much land is there and then this offsite where up in North armmer it's quite a bit of land I don't know how much is buildable and I went out and walked it it's already got some storage sheds and some equipment on it it's got electric it's got Wi-Fi I mean it's actually got a Transformer thing so I don't know how quickly something could be built there but just acreage and when Pam's asking about distributive if that's the big storage with quanas hots for equipment and then similarly at Hickory Ridge I've heard eight Acres 7 Acres 5 Acres six and a half acres in terms of the buildable amount we've got along paloy and that the fire station would need X and then there's hats referring to we find had a diagram with something else was built next to I don't have a good sense of that so if you could just come with much more clearly not schematic design but it only needs three acres and there's another five or and who wants to live right next to a fire station but it's only a few times a day that the sirens go but in just something like that on what that layout looks like would be useful I mean and I'm saying the acreage when we first bought it there was I heard more and it keeps shrinking so okay um are there any other questions or comments on this item comment to to Kathy um I had been concerned about the siren out at Hickory Ridge for the residents there and that was also something Chief Nelson spoke about and most of the time when they leave the fire station they do not have the sirens on they only do that when they're hitting an intersection or something so that's very interesting it's a lot quieted right so the questions could be something be built next to and how big can the something be an apartment building is just right different question than the sound okay um that concludes that item until in future meeting uh Town manager goals Anna we're not going to discuss the goals tonight but would you please talk a little bit about Go's discussion regarding the retreat yeah so this is included in the go report but where where we got and I'd invite any other members of go to um supplement supplement my tale uh where we've gotten to is that ultimately the council will need to be going through the action item we've talked a lot with the council about the objectives and the goal areas but to narrow or to zero in on the action items would be best done at a retreat um where that is the sole Focus where we can really um dig into each specific one uh where we're not pressed for time and ideally where some of us don't have to get up at 5:30 the next morning for work so uh when we get to the goals it tends to be late in our meetings we tend to be tired so we wanted to bring the council together at a retreat with um some an external facilitator we found that it would be most beneficial meaning everyone could engage most fully in the discussion if we aren't the ones facilitating it and leading the meeting so um go talked about a couple different ways to do that but essentially going through at this Retreat and in some process which is to be determined um doing engaging in conversation but also looking at prioritization and determining if we can possibly remove some of the action items as priorities for the coming year as goals for the coming year in order to make sure we've got a set that is feasible um and what we're seeking to do okay Pat you have your hand up okay we do not have a date for The Retreat this will be something that we'll have to Poll for right so stay tuned councelor hanii so thank you for that clarification because I was really confused when I read your report and it said that's what the plan was but then at the very end it had a motion to recommend adoption of the gals so I was confused tremendously um but it sounds like if that motion was made you're not actually recommending adoption of the goals at the time you're recommending a retreat to discuss the goals we had to get the goals out of go we have to recommend we the way I understood it was we had to recommend the adoption of the goals as go had written them the council can change anything about a recommended thing that comes out of a committee um but go did say that they thought the goals were good uh and ready to go but it's mostly the logistics of discussing the goals we thought would be better done at a retreat my next question is I believe last year the retreat was held in late March if not in April um it was the manager is operating now without goals um I would like to know how the manager feels about operating without goals at this point um and whether we are going to modify the goals because we're going to be looking at six-month goals if we wait till March to even have a r Treat because he writes his evaluation self- evaluation um in October it doesn't really sit comfortably with me that we don't even have a retreat date set and it will literally be six months to complete quote a Year's worth of goals so I'd love to hear the manager about that his thoughts i' would also just like to add we would like to very much have the retreat before March um Paul yeah um that the time for performance on the goals shrinks it becomes more challenging the key piece for me is really about setting the budget and establishing the budget because the budget needs to align with the goals um we're working on the budget very actively um now through April so getting the goals set and being clear about them is is that's an important feature of our budget preparation because that's the main tool we use for implementing the goals so yes speed is of the is be so help this point go is officially asking the clerk of the Town Council to Poll for a retreat is that correct that is correct okay right uh councelor hanii did you still have your hand up uh Kathy Shane I think a retreat is an excellent idea and soon so my my it this to me could be 4 hours it could be an afternoon it could be a morning you know just something that gets um the in terms of operating without goals if you look at the most recent draft and you go down one column it says continuing continuing continuing so it's not like we've got a whole bunch of surprises here so then you can find some things that are called new new different modified um we just talked about two of them getting DPW going setting up a committee is on on the list so I don't think we've been silent about goals because there are so many that are continuing there are some that are new that are contentious and so I also would hope the retreat could focus on them right away you know as opposed to Let's and and avoid I don't mean to say this in a negative way but avoid word smithing I'm less concerned about the best word for something and more that we all understand what that sentence means um so we spent a really long time on climate a lot of it w when we did have a discussion a lot of it was words and and and now we have a new climate one added which is a good one but so I would just like it to be a really focused discussion on the content and as you said on the actions you know these um are we missing any and the the one I sent in is we have a section called finance and infrastructure um finance and management and we actually don't have any goals around Finance said maybe that's okay but there's not one anymore I guess it's assumed there will be a balanced budget and we will be rational but in any case so that's so Lynn I'm wondering can we set one up so within the next three weeks we have this re Retreat if we poll and we all say we need to do this right we will begin the process tomorrow yes um are there any other questions or comments on the goals uh Town manager there are no appointments uh there are few committee reports but let's quickly do them CRC Pam Rooney and Jennifer thank you um CRC met back in December and as you noted we're still working on the University Drive overlay the public hearing is still open still working on solar somebody tonight mentioned solar let's get it done which is a really good thing so that's um both of them are in progress sadly not quickly okay Elementary School building Kathy we we're meeting this Friday and the good news is this is the week construction is due to start and the construction team leaders are joining us at the meeting by Zoom so anyone who wants to see the faces behind something called CTA which is the general manager and they've been at a kickoff meeting as Paul and Bob mentioned already on a getting ready with the school leadership and the facilities people so uh this will be our first meeting as a committee with them and it's partly just so we have some faces to put to to the team um so that is Friday and we've switched our meeting times we're now meeting at 12:30 uh just afternoon so one person couldn't meet in the mornings and it will be about an hour it's not going to be a long meeting okay thank you H is committee Bob uh nothing more to report go Anna nothing to report at this time uh Jones Library building Pam roon thank you uh Jones Library building committee um is expecting a meeting soon but also uh was encouraged to participate or to listen in any anyway to the trustees the Jones Library trustees recently um addressed um some of the historic preservation concerns uh raised by the community and and counselors that um some of the elements of the building be restored uh including the slate roof um and the lack of need for a new Dr um drop slot in the front of the building so um these are good steps in the right direction in terms of starting to address the section 106 historic preservation act requirements okay TSO TSO uh has written report uh which we sent on Friday to council by email ma is available for the public in the packet um I think that it sort of summarizes where we are with the two major projects that have been outstanding for substantial discussion the other one of course we're working on but now waiting for Town manager um is the wasti huler if you have any questions of course I'd be glad to respond but I think we tried to be comprehensive in the report thank you any liaison reports Jennifer um just to share that the Council on Aging um is going to be attending a practicum um that at the Eisenberg School uh they are going to be doing a practicum of needs assessments of the senior community in amorist and they'll be kicking that off on January 31st but that's something I'll try and keep you updated on and then I guess just to reiterate what um Mr Vandal said in his public comment that there is a lot of discussion at the community on Aging meetings um about the need for a more robust Senior Center so uh councelor hanii um as part of my membership on the MMA policy committee on Municipal and Regional Administration I was part of a panel that testified on Friday um at the executive office of Housing and livable communities eohc um and they're hearing on the regulations to implement the Adu affordable homes act Adu Provisions in there um if anyone would like information on what I said on that um or um what other people said um I listen to the whole hearing come find me okay thank you are there any other comments with regard to Liaison reports um we've approved the minutes a town manager's report Paul sure I have a few things um April 20th which is Reverend Dr Martin Luther King Jr day um is will be celebrated um by people seeking to make it a day on instead of a day off and this is our cpos working with our community participation officer working with the the recreation department and the senior services department to get people to do something positive that day uh and I think that um there's other events happening that day that others will be thinking about but we're also thinking about the model that President Jimmy Carter had led about the way he involved himself in community as well so pretty much a real staff-driven initiative feeling like we want to do something and just credit this the team for bringing that to the floor um as um Kathy said Elementary School uh we had the kickoff meeting um which is very exciting CTA construction managers LLC is the contractor um they're excited to be get started on the project um there's a number of issues that will they're going through the perming part the piece with the um our building department right now so we expect that work to get to really um get moving soon so we're happy about that Jones Library as um Pam said the section 10 review there is there is still uh the we we got an answer from the mass historical commission uh the library trustees recommended that we accept their recommendations uh which makes total sense which is about the slate roof and the bookd drop um and but there still the Consulting parties still have to have a meeting which they're trying to schedule this month when they can get the mass historical commission to participate with the Consulting parties as part of the 106 review process um so there are other issues that Bob Parn is just sort of trying to navigate through um in terms of um making sure the project can move forward we are looking at a March 31 deadline that the mblc has set and we're hoping to shoot for to um achieve that deadline um and I also recognize that the financing for the project is something that a concern to the council uh and we'll be talking about that with you as well okay Jennifer um yes I've asked this question before but uh this is the week that the two contractors that submitted bids were asked to hold their quotes until so since we're not in a position to award the contract because the section 106 review has not been completed I just wanted to ask what is the process for asking the contractors to continue to hold their quotes yeah so this is the exact same process we went through with the schol elementary school project B parin is having conver ation with the contractors asking them to hold their bids uh beyond the deadline that they said they would hold them for so they everybody agreed to it during the school project and he's pretty confident that they will hold it for the library project as well will they be asked to hold it until the review is complete I I'm not sure exactly I would assume um for sure I mean I think until we're able to sign a contract is where they'd be held so I'm not sure exactly what dates he's looking at with them but yeah okay Kathy I I I sent some questions that was one of them to pull it advance so the the other piece that's you're pushing against a deadline is assuming this is moving forward the discussion is pulling the roofing out and rebidding it by splitting off the Slate so all of that has to be done before you get a whole project is that is that correct so there there's several different ways to do that as you know as your experience with the school there's different ways you can uh skin the cat and so one of them is to pull it out from the bid another is to make a change order after the bid is awarded which is what we did with the with you know with the school project so again I just rely on Bob parent to sort of work through what's the best option is for the town and he is in conversation with the designers and with the um the contractors on this because during the trustee meeting one of the things he pointed out is the roofers who have the the roofing contract don't necessarily have slate roof experience because they didn't need it for the original one so this so the we're working against the deadline and then um I'm also hoping you'll come to us come to the finance committee with what does the financing of all of this look like you know yeah I think I mentioned that just a minute ago yeah okay are there any other questions of the Town manager Jennifer so I did want to uh ask terms of the waste huler bylaw if there was any status update on how on the RFP so the firm that we were trying to get to do the RFP is um says they're not able to take it on right now so we are now searching for a different firm to to do the work um I'm sort of hoping that the MMA medeia I'll find we'll dig out some more applicants people who will take it on have also appealed back to that same firm uh which is the Colin Center um because it's a very easy procurement process with them um to see if they can make this happen for us so that's was just sort of disappointing that we they weren't able to jump on right away councelor I was just wondering if the town manager had a general idea when the report G report on Crest would come out yeah um I don't have a timing for it I know um uh the director is meeting with the CSS JC um I don't know exactly when this month or next to give an update I I can find out for you though um but I know she's working on an update on where Crest is at this moment in time and I know that's going to be a concern for the council during the budget process and we're we're sort of focused on that as well so we can give a full report on where cruss is during the budget process thank you okay are there any other questions of the Town manager seeing none um with regard to uh president's report there's not a written report this week there will be in two two weeks um I tomorrow I will be sending out an email asking people to express their um interest in committee appointments the ones that the president makes in consultation with counselors and then also uh preferences for the committees that the council appoints we will then move to those Council appointments um at the next meeting on the 29th um and also um I yes 27th 27th thank you um and then in addition to that with regard to Future agenda items I will start developing an annual calendar and uh we'll send it out and ask people to start filling in things that they know will be coming up are there any questions on either of those at this point are there any counselor comments seeing none um the thing I just need to clarify I don't adjourn the meeting I just move us into executive session do do IJ the regular session you make a motion to move into executive session um it's on the motion sheet yeah and then you just make a statement that the council will not return to open session following the executive session thank you you're welcome all right so at this point I'm making the following motion to seek a second to meet an exec session executive session pursuant to General law M General Law chapter 3A paragraph 21A in Prince and one in Prince to discuss complaints or charges brought up against a public official officer employee staff member or individual the Town Council will not return to open session following the executive session is there a second second okay um is so we're going to move to a vote councelor hanii hi Bob hegner I councelor Lord I Pam Rooney yes councelor Ryan hi Kathy Shane yes Andy Steinberg hi Jennifer to yes councelor Walker yes Patti Angeles I and Deon gothier hi councelor ete I Lyn grimer is an i it's unanimous you you will now go off of this uh link and you will receive another link and meantime we will ask um the audience to leave and also the other note taker