##VIDEO ID:j75v8KI7GY0## finish before it will be my my greatest effort and honor if I can manage it okay we're recording Erica please go ahead okay so let's call to order uh the January 16th meeting of the CH Review Committee um we should check in uh go around and make sure everyone is Audible and present um Bernie present Meg present and I can hear people fabulous Raphael here Ken present Andy here Dan here and I see Melissa is joining we check in with Melissa later um and Julian is absent tonight and I don't see Marcus has anyone heard from Marcus okay I have not okay so um I I already said I am sitting in for Julian who is on uh who is on vacation tonight so I'm going to go through the agenda that we've prepared there's it's an ambitious agenda so we're going to do our best to um to to stay on track um if I forget the sequence of um moving through agenda items please pause me correct me um I'm not in the habit yet okay um I why don't I share my screen so that we can all see where we're at that visible for everyone okay so our first order business call to order we had um minutes I submitted the minutes from December 18th and we can discuss or approve them as people see it right now yeah I thought the minutes were extraordinary uh and I've said a high standard the only comment I'd make is that I think it's common to for the note takers name the minute taker to be noted I neglected respectfully submitted by I thought they were extraordinary and did you thank you and did you look at the video afterwards or take minutes as we went along I'm curious because they were to be modeled on um I tried to write fast as we were going through I did check two things with the video before I submitted them but um yeah so just along with the minutes it would be good to have a little heads up I know we're rotating of when your turn is at the next meeting so one would be prepared to do that yes thank you for bringing that up a Meg I don't remember who is on for tonight for taking minutes does anybody have there's a rotation that we yeah I don't have access to that list right this minute and I suggest at the end of a meeting we remind ourselves who's the following person so you approach the meeting prepared to do it good it's a good suggestion does anyone remember or have access to that list let me see any has anyone who hasn't done it it was Athena that that knew that the the day that I did minutes so unless Bernie can find it I'm not sure where that list is okay um I'm looking thank you Aina uh so after Erica is Dan and then Raphael and then Marcus thank you you're welcome so Dan are you able to take minutes tonight I am so just in in 10 seconds give me the the technique for doing this people have said look look at the transcript later what's the best way of doing this and participating I think everyone's had their own technique but if you can take notes as best you can as we're moving through and then Athena can link you to the video if you want to check any word for word or anything you might have missed sure very good okay um on minutes do we have any motion to uh approve them so moved thank you Ken um and we're voting yes okay rapael yes Dan abstain Ken yes Andy yes Meg yes I'll vote Yes and Bernie yes okay so we approved the minutes from last meeting um we're scheduled to have a period of public comment I see we've been rejoined by some attendees in our um in our Zoom here so we'll give a period of public comment if anybody who is on the zoom call wants to make a comment please raise your hand and uh we'll call on you and set a time for I think it's three minutes minutes any of our Zoom attendees like to make a public comment now's a good time okay I don't see anybody raising their hand so we'll move on to the next item okay the next item on our list a lot of our items tonight I think are kind of really interrelated um based on the the action items from the uh the plan that we approved the one that Bernie proposed and we discussed at some length last meeting the first item we're going to talk about is the scope of work that was drafted for Consulting with the cin Center on uh the work of the charter Review Committee um this is a I'm going to pull up that scope of work that was attached in our packet does everybody see that on the screen I'm kind of clicking around a lot of things yes great um that was in the packet as well um this is a draft of a scope of work that was put together by Julian in consultation with Athena Athena please correct me if I'm if I'm wrong about that um that the two of you worked on uh what what could be requested uh let's say to the consultant is that accurate um I gave Julian a copy of um excuse me of a different scope of work document I didn't contribute to this particular document okay thank you for clarifying so this is Julian's proposal for uh what we could do with the Colin Center and I'll just give everybody a chance to really um have a look through um believe it's two pages I'm going to scroll to the second page now okay so let's just open the discussion Meg um I'm interested in the section on helping us with public comment as a member of the subcommittee on Outreach about the timing of when that advice will come because we're already actively working on it so I imagine it would be in conjunction with our subcommittee or they would come in I mean we're actually we're planning full steam ahead with some ideas which you'll hear about later in this meeting so my question is uh making sure that they're helpful and not sort of starting us all over again with Outreach and it's far it's a little far down in the the deliverables which section was it me so I can make it sure it's if you could go to the second page there you go it's um uh public engagement number five uh when will when will I'm just we're already searching for people to help us with the survey we're already uh talking about Outreach and all sort as you'll hear when Erica gives a report on rapael her Erica Rafael's in my meeting earlier that um I'm just noting that they're going to help with public engagement we already have a subcommittee actively working on it maybe we should add working with the subcommittee or something so that it's we don't want to sort of have to start all over again three months from now okay um Andy um yeah I just I think I think that makes sense um moving it up maybe to number two rather than number five and maybe having it be um you know in conjunction with our subcommittee our Outreach subcommittee um I I get I originally raised my hand though just to ask whether this has been whether the Colin Center has been checked in with about whether these are the kinds of deliverables they they provide unfortunately Julian's not here so I don't know maybe Athena would know I don't know to what extent he actually spoke with them but like aen said she did she did provide him with some kind of existing uh sort of drafts of work that they've done in the same vein yeah I guess it's it to me it looks perfectly fine um as far as as a basis for um discussing a contract uh Bernie I'm I'm going to um respectfully disagree with my colleague Mr Churchill um this is unacceptable um we have a request can you be specific Bry yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna be um there's no mention of the committee's charge oh there's none I mean we we were given a specific charge by the council and so if we're going to ask for help in doing that um and and and getting that charge completed we should reference it and summarize it um there's also and it's just it's not there um you know the [Music] the there should also be mention and I with C Center because they helped write the charter would might would probably be aware of this this is a you a required review uh that um is limited in scope yeah they're again they're familiar with this but we're not looking at um the the whatever we report into the into the council um is you know going to contain so-called minor changes uh so I I I don't see those are important qualifiers that are just simply missing here um I've looked at some of the proposals that the con Center has done for other communities and U uh this misses the point um okay the other piece here is we have research requirements that are way off base small and mediumsized New England towns college towns and melties comparable demographics and resources I mean this is not a charter commission this is a charter review and this kind of research is timely and costly um so we can't expect the Colin C give us a nominal sum you you know in terms of a a cost for doing this the other thing is is that you know you can look as much as you want it's what might happen in you know outside of Massachusetts but what we do is framed by Massachusetts law so to say we want to go and look at every mediumsized college towns in um you know in Pennsylvania is was uh see see you know this probably a couple of other things in here that are um I think are disappointing in the fact that the consultant tasks are are not clearly delineated um it says that some of the work is going to be assigned to consult Consultants to some to committee members some to other volunteers Municipal staff professionals and town councel but there's no those aren't delineated we're not telling the Consultants what we want them to produce we're saying that here's a list of six things oh by the way some of this is going to happen by other people to be named later or starting that's already started so you know were I to be were I still in the Consulting business and having to respond to this I'd ignore it okay um thank you I'm GNA take in a couple more comments Dan had your hand up [Music] um we're you know I I think Erica has said very well they're interrelated things I don't know that if you anticipated what Bernie said about this is minor changes this is a this is a fundamental thing that I've raised in the point in the next agenda so um clearly we have some we have some clarifying to do here uh Andy I I hear what Bernie's saying um but we do we do have a letter that we put out to the community that said that we would be specifically providing you know we would collecting information both for the council to act on itself and that we you know questions that might require you know uh the state so um I'm I'm sorry Andy we are cutting out a little bit if they have done work oh um can you hear me now yes no okay yes um I I was just thinking that if we if we talk to the Colin Center about what kinds of things they've done with other Charter review committees they could give us a list of things that they do and then we could take that and massage it to meet our particular needs but um so I don't you know if that was not done that might be a way to to to to deal with this or we could say look we want to work with you here's a starting point for discussion and let's you know narrow it down and make it more specific I just think we need to get going on this we need to contract with the center and I don't want to delay it any long really okay uh Dan I see your hand and then Bernie yeah I also wanted to address what Meg's uh Meg's issue which is you don't want to do this work and then have to start again if you're doing you know the the survey work with Integrity will get something out of it it's not like the Colin Center is giving advice they're not giving us telling us what to do so I I think that you can I mean I think that if you're getting advice from people you can begin to put we can begin to get feedback it doesn't have to be all the feedback or the final but I don't see your effort being wasted Bernie um I you know I'm not saying that the public Outreach shouldn't start far from it I think the public Outreach um you know folks are hard at work at that I think we need to get moving and that would be acceptable you know we're going to we're going to get some feedback um in the Colin Center may want to suggest some refinement to it at some point but I I think we we do need to get moving I would agree that we should simply say to the Colin Center we would like to work with you can you show us what you've done with other Charter reviews and they've done several um and agree on a have a discussion with them around the scope of work and the cost because we don't have to advertise this we can have that that dialogue um and I I think and I agree with Andy we need to keep moving on this and unfortunately um talking to the cin Center which should have happened already hasn't uh so we need to we we need to get we need to get going on this I I would just set this aside and ask the cin cator to please uh give us some give us some input give us some proposals give us uh you know what they see as a scope of work here uh to do the charter review you and to assist with Outreach we can tell them with Outreach efforts we're already planning and what Outreach efforts we've already implemented and ask them to enhance those efforts not to duplicate them um so so I I you know don't see a problem with with Outreach so I before I take the additional comments I just want to try to summarize where we're at um there seems to be a feeling of that this this scope of work is not ready to be uh approved or submitted however we do need to get a scope of work finalized with the Colin Center quickly so that we can proceed and get even there's a budget issue that's related here um and that the that the Outreach piece that's included in this scope of work but overlaps what the subcommittee is is already talking about and bring to the table in just a little while can be separated out from this scope of work for the time being I'm just kind I'm trying to summarize if I'm missing something please correct me but excellent okay Raphael yeah I just wanted to follow what folks shared in terms of reaching out soon important they actually have their services that are offered with Charter change and government study they are five um there's not a lot of specificity there but perhaps someone could reach out and find out more there's stuff about facilitation presentations research um so more specificity would help agree I appreciate that Julian took a shot at this thank you uh Dan um in in line with what we've said before and specifically someone said um I think it's uh Williamstown in their Charter review report uh references their using the Colin Center so you know this is a thread that's run through let's look at other things and I think Andy said you know we could just find out their basic things and draws so here's an example there's a report that was molded by the cin Center's advice we could look at it well Williamstown is a town um so it's not I've read that report um and so it'll differ considerably from what we're trying to do the Colin Center Online somewhere there's a list of gazillion communities that the Colin Center has worked with either to draft a charter or to review a charter so um you know I I think that uh Mike Mike Ward can readily um pull together a proposal uh for us to to look at and review um there are a number of U there's a a couple of of proposals that I've seen online that I could share with uh we can post to the uh to the website for people to look at um you know new stuff okay uh Ken you had your hand up and then Andy um I'm gonna suggest um that even though he's not here that Julian at least has the first right of refusal to be the person reaches out to the Callin Center because he's put the time into the proposal he may still be interested in doing that and that maybe Erica you could be the person that gets them up to speed with with the with the with the minutes as well about what we discussed um I just want to make sure somebody grabs this and moves on it yeah um okay H Andy's comment I was just going to volunteer that you know I mean um that we should just somebody should reach out to them I you know I know Mike Ward I know Meg does um Bernie does you know we've worked with he's he's the director of the Colin Center and he worked with us on the charter so you know I know Julian's on vacation I don't know when he's getting back I'm also on vacation not getting back till next week but you know I think doing some Outreach soon to just say you know what what what are the proposals that you've given to other you know municipalities on tter review um you know summarize the conversation we've had and just say you know can you give us something to work with I don't know that we want to necessarily wait until Julian gets back Meg I wonder if we can reach Julian and tell him about this conversation just out of respect to say we feel we need to I mean whatever whatever this committee decides to do we can we can pass along a summary you know of of what we feel should be the next course of action so I just I don't know how accessible he is I actually don't have a sense of if um if he's checking email and that sort of thing so um just Trum but uh Andy are you proposing that you or someone reach out to the Colin Center for a a kind of um uh a list to to choose from a list of services to kind of uh prepare for us what we could then select as viable for the committee to work with them on yeah I think that I would I'd be willing to do that or or you know certainly Bernie could do it or Meg but I I would I'd be happy to send an email to Mike and um so so if I understand that right the the issue is we won't be able to vote on that as a committee um until I think January 30th is our next meeting um we I mean we can't vote on this anyway because clearly we have we you know uh we're not going to proceed with this I think from what I'm gathering from the conversation but I just want to put that out there for a sense of the timeline so are are you saying that it would be worth reaching out and then getting something back for them so that we could consider it at the next meeting or it's no it's my personal opinion that yes it is and just I wanted to be upfront about the the time delay that's involved right in going ahead with that as opposed to sending to them sorry Athena you had your hand raised yeah you won't be able to contract with the Colin Center until you have some funding anyhow so I think the the urgency there's a little bit of um you know feeling wanting to get this done and also that uh the the committee will need to address the budget part of it too before you can shake hands with the conent uh Bernie and then Meg I I would be more than happy to have Andy talk to Mike and either get from like um some proposals that they've done for other communities or you know in contacting them send them a copy of our our charge uh from the council and say you know how would you help us meet this and what might be a range of costs I would feel much more comfortable if we're going to go to the council um or to the town manager first and then the council and say give us some money if we have a document we can show them and say this is what we're going to get for our um and I you know these these the folks that col Center can work quickly um this is not um this is not rocket science they're well practiced at it and I think they can they can be helpful okay U Meg um what Bernie said makes sense that especially if we can't do anything till we have the money and we're not going to like get the money till we can tell the council how much we need um so I support what Bernie just suggested I have a suggestion about missing meetings but I maybe I should make that after we finish this discussion yeah let's hold that for just a minute yeah um so do we need to make a motion uh because this document has been submitted for us to review or we are just agreeing to proceed by a different means I think we have a consensus that Andy should uh reach out to the col Center and um get us a some sample proposals in a range of costs that we can then review in in time to discuss and decide on on the January 30th meeting okay Andy you're good with that charge great so that's how we'll proceed and I will relay that um to Julian and obviously they'll be recorded in our minutes um Meg I wanted to suggest um I don't know if this is a policy or just kind of our group Culture that we're a good group and uh we I trust this I've come to get to trust the people on it that if somebody misses a meeting that we don't expect things to be held up until we are at a meeting and if we have input for a discussion that we're going to miss that we give it to the chair but otherwise that if you miss a meeting you miss a meeting I think we're torn about Julian doing this work and then changing it when he's not here but I think that's how it is uh Dan yeah I mean I think this can all be accommodated it's respect to the chair definitely but we're also moving ahead with just getting some kind of proposal so we have something to work with so I don't think Julian is going to be cut out and I and my guess is if he wants to he can see the recording of the meeting and um yeah I don't I don't see him being excluded by our moving forward I think that's okay okay so we have a plan of action we have a way to update juliia and I'm going to say let's move on to our next agenda item um which is a budget request update uh and I think that Melissa is here in part to talk about that am I correct oh um I I didn't think I was here to to talk about the budget but um that's that's that's fine that was my impression but um the committee budget not the town budget well right but I mean like I you mean this budget request that that you're submitting with some sort of proposal to the Colin Center is I kind of that's what I thought um yeah we had a we had a um a budget request drafted um that was prep paired um by Julian and when it was submitted it was sort of the the town manager uh asked for more detail um then there was additional conversation um about how and where to provide more detail Julian and Athena and I met um to just talk through what the budget request um timing should be in particular so I think the we had a meeting um Julian and Athena and I and then I wasn't able to connect with you with the four of us um so I think what we talked about um mostly was about the funding the bulk of the funding is for this um this work with the call-in Center is what it what it looked like to me and obviously that would need to be a um you know a a supplemental appropriation um submitted through the town manager now and it's it seemed um to us when we um spoke that the um some of the other things like The Mailing and the um and the sort of um public Outreach portion um would um would would flow be part of maybe next fiscal year and it would be um unwise to submit that as part of this funding proposal but to ask for that in the next fiscal year so that it doesn't disappear in the middle of your work meaning that like the money would um on June 30th any supplemental appropriation that um was given now like if it was for a contract for the Callin Center obviously once the contract is started it can be um it can be completed and paid through that um appropriation but if you have um an event plan for like say July 15th you wouldn't be able to use any money that was asked for in this fiscal year so we were um saying that maybe we should talk about what you need to fund for the Colin Center study and that the other um Community engagements things based on the timeline that you know I mean correct me if I'm wrong but based on what I assume the a timeline was was kind of laying out to be would be more um advantageous to the group um as part of a bu budget request for fiscal 26 okay thank you Melissa for for outlining that um and I see a couple of comments already so I'm to just take that first Ken um Melissa I um I don't think you're known to everybody on this committee including can you please just just quickly introduce yourself so I know so the minutes recorded properly sure thank you um my name is Melissa zawatski um and I was hired as the finance director for the town of ammer um very recently in July of this year okay or July of last year now it's off January already yeah welcome thank you Ken Melissa is holding up well and Andy you had a comment yeah welcome also and and you have you have a big job to do and we appreciate it um I I just wanted to say that I think you might have heard that the Outreach committee is already meeting to talk about Outreach and it's my personal hope that we can do uh the majority of the Outreach in this fiscal year that we would actually between March and and June you know having meetings and we and it might extend into the into the next fiscal year as well but I think we will be having um meetings you know before people leave for the summer and so I think we will need some funding for um you know support for for materials and for you know costs of convening people and things like that so I'm just thinking that um you know our the majority of our work is reaching out to the community to say to find out what they think about how our how our Charter is is guiding our government and how it can be improved so um we'll be doing that as soon as we you know can get it going but it won't be we won't be waiting till July right sure fair enough it is possible that I assume that based on the scope of work that I saw that said that the consultant was going to have input on that so you know you you brought up that point earlier you know earlier in the meeting today so right that makes sense and we're we're trying hard to sort of separate out some of that work um so um but that's an important uh deadline or calendar to structure the way that we're requesting funds um I'll just add a note that um we're going to update this committee with what the subcommittee talked about with regard to outreach and um but we will be coming up with uh with clearer figures for what we propose um for that budget request to go in as soon as possible so that it can be spent out in this fiscal year as Andy said so clearly could I just piggy back on that on that yes um uh I guess I'd like to ask Melissa from your point of view you know we're we're a small uh Tim limited you know committee with a fairly specific charge that we've out that we've out you know and a letter that we've written about the kind of work that we're going to be doing um but as you know what degree of specificity do you need do you need you know how many paper cups we're going to buy for various you know uh you know uh information gathering sessions or can we have a you know what's the line what's the level of line items that would be useful to you if we said you know we have three types of Activity one is consultant support one is uh meetings and one is materials can we you know can we just say you know those number you know what those numbers would would be or do we need to get you know really much more specific about you know the sub costs within the categories so there are a couple things um so I know that one of the things was for a mailer so that can kind of be um kind of calculated based on um you know Postage and how you know flyers and you know the population of the community you know so how many Flyers you're sending out sort of thing or um postcards um and so that number can be you know pretty specific and then the other um part to consider um sort of food and beverage um is something that um is not is not it's not a standard practice for committees to have those expenses um it is allowed in Outreach um and it um but it's something that you know the daytoday um working session for a committee or for um staff of a department is not allowed to do so there is a special process for um getting that approved um because you know we do do a lot of Outreach and this is something that's happening but there's sort of an extra layer of um approval that needs to happen with um like if you were going to uh serve snack or you know pizza or whatever some kind of Refreshments at to um at an Outreach event um that the accountant needs to approve beforehand and so it's typically um you know you'll want to sort of understand you know what are the costs of getting a tray of sandwiches or whatever it is that you plan to serve or like a craft of coffee what are those kind of expenses what are the size of your group and sort of know that ahead of time and kind of almost at the same time as that we're approving the budget it would probably be easier for the committee to actually get those those programs off the ground if you kind of knew that the accountant had already seen those and approve those as acceptable you know like I don't I I haven't I'm not involved in that part and that's that sort of approval process is new to me but I I I um you know you I know that you there's a form you have to fill out and it says you know I'm buying sandwiches for this meeting for this outside group and it's going to be $200 so if you know you're going to have like five of those events and you know about how much it's going to cost just make sure that it doesn't you don't run into roadblock later so that's why I would honestly that's why I would be more specific only because I know about the the subsequent approval that you will still need to get even if you have the budget for for it h Andy um yeah but just in terms of you know um getting I mean we know that we will need to get approval to buy specific amounts of uh food and materials whatever for for outreach meetings um but we don't know exactly how many meetings we're going to be having yet and um but we need to you know we again we don't want to delay having a budget unnecessarily so you know if we could just say we're you know we're going to ask for $30,000 and $20,000 of that is going to be for the consultants and 5,000 of that is going to be for materials and 5,000 of that is going to be for outreach supplies including food and and we will get the permissions necessary for the specific meetings that we end up planning um and we won't overspend those categories so we'll just make that work it's really small amounts of money on the scale of the town but is is that is it possible that we could you know get that approved so we can get the funding moving so that when we get the Consultants ready to go and we get the meetings ready to go then we can go you know for the meetings in speciic specifically we can go to the accountant and say Here's exactly what we're going to buy we want to take that out of our $5,000 for food um you know could we go in that direction or do we have to have the exact number of meetings and the exact type of food figured out before we can even submit the budget so I I I think that's a reasonable plan but I I think um that it it was the town manager who asked for more specificity so I think if you could have a fair estimate that you are planning to have let's just make up a number five to six meetings and you think that you need $3 to $400 a meeting or something like that then that to me would and maybe Athena could comment on that if she you know um I know has talked to the town manager about this about what the expectation of the kind of specificity okay uh Bernie I was just going to suggest it it maybe if someone from Outreach would just uh have a conversation with Holly Drake who's our comproller um and I'm assuming Holly's the person who's you know who's she may hand this off to the staff but H's the person who uh um manages the books and um just to get an idea just to let her know that this is what we're trying and we want to try and get an idea from her as to what kind of documentation she'll need so that we're on firm ground with this you know I'm particularly concerned about the child care piece that's in the uh um in in the request not that I have a problem with child care it's just you want to be certain that the town can hand somebody a check for allegedly hiring a babysitter or something like that so so uh you know it would would be helpful to check with Holly and see what what documentation is required and then move forward um can I ask a a question um Bernie um for some reason I thought that the child care was going to be provided at the meeting is that not the case this is reimbursements we don't know something that was my understanding as well yes at the meeting okay and um Bernie did you suggest that someone from the Outreach committee make that contact with Holly yeah yeah we have we could do that I just want to be sure that's what you've said yeah no that would be you know just get the know what the ground rules are going in and and that's that's something we could do I'll just speak for myself but I think quite sure why we would but yeah you got also assure Paul when we when the request lands on his desk that we uh we know what the rules of the road are so that makes me think that the Outreach committee ought to be working on the budget related that we a buget there should be a budget writing component of our work yes I guess Melissa Melissa's already I mean uh Erica is already all over that on top of that I'm sure um yes it will it will come up at our at our next uh yeah sub committee meeting um could I just shift the subject a little bit Melissa thank you so much for providing that detail and kind of insight um and since we have you here I I and we're going to be working in various ways on this um budget request and since the issue of the as you probably heard the colins um the Colin Center scope of work is going to be Revisited um is there any guidance that you want to provide us on that piece of the budget request in terms of specificity in terms of limitations in terms of how um how the scope of work for the consultant piece uh can or should be Des described so as I understand it I mean I um I too have seen several scopes of work um that um that the Colin Center has had for um Charter review um committees um and it it was my understanding that um it was at least um at least one other um Charter Review Committee scope of work that was borrowed to to to create the the outline that that Julian you know sort of previewed in order to to kind of get an idea of like what um he gathered from that ex example and um and what he had heard in the meetings um and so I guess I mean I I heard on Bernie say and I think that is absolutely accurate that you know in a proposal that you would get from the Callin Center they can provide you their proposal with a scope of work with a dollar amount associated with it and that might be the um best way to go as to and I think I think the goal was to to get a scope of work to sort of get an idea of what it would cost because based on the scope of work and how broad or or focused it is changes the price I would assume um with the call center so um so maybe getting them to give you a proposal but then that proposal will become most likely or the ones I've seen with a scope of work that not not to say that you couldn't you know take that in as a committee review that and then send it back to the Colin center with edits but that might change the bottom line price but but getting a proposal from them as to it's going to be number of dollarss for this specific scope and I think that was the his um intent was to to give something a starting place to have that conversation yes I think so too so thank you so I think that the the where we landed be earlier on what we're going to do about this the Colin scope of work um still leads us to the same kind of conclusion that you're describing okay um Meg just a technical point I wonder if we should stop screen sharing so we can see each other better now that we've yeah thank you ah okay um anything else that anyone in the group wants to discuss regarding the budget request okay thank you very much Melissa that was really helpful um and it's good to have you here I appreciate it thank you um the next item on our agenda was the charter Review Committee web page discussion that was a continuation from the December 12th meeting um I am assuming that Julian meant the the issue that Dan had raised uh from the previous meeting which because Dan weren't able to attend December 12th right or December 18th um so there's that and it's combined I think Andy correct me if I'm wrong with the um with an issue that you emailed me about on the same topic is that right um yes I talked to or I emailed with Julian and um I had some summary materials of the charter that um I had created and Meg had edited and we we had submitted for consideration Julian thought that those might in some ways overlap because they might have something to do with the website so I'm happy to piggy back on that just to be on the agenda but I'll go after Okay so let's have Dan uh I'm gonna put up the um I'm G to share my screen again and and put up the uh document that you shared and you could talk us through this uh your sense of this issue it was in the packet so I think everybody saw this already but I just want to have you address it as a sort of an action point like where where we can um as a group what action can we take uh based on what you're describing here yeah well well I think I mean My My Hope was that people have seen this though of course I mean I I can talk us through it um you know I think we have seen it I don't think you have to yeah yeah yeah so so you know I have to say I think I indicated this in the email I'm more concerned about the ideas than the website itself I mean we could ask we could vote and say does is the website itself worth our time um I mean I think there are reasons to say it is but I also think we have a lot to do so maybe can we take a sense of the committee without a formal vote to people want think the website deserves our attention is that show of hands how how should we do that does anyone have an immediate comment I'm not sure I understand what the controversy is well the the issue is I mean and this just came up I mean we're we're still Haven I think really looked at the treatment of the scope and Bernie mentioned this our scope is limited and you know we're not we're still not clear about this that we're only talking minor changes but our letter said we're talking Charter commissions and special acts that's not what you do for minor changes so I feel like there's a lack of still is a lack of clarity about this I brought this up really because this issue of large changes if you look at you know the first thing is comparing the the this is the language from the top of the website and the top of the the the council's charge to us this is a treatment of this language that leaves out Charter commission leaves out big changes and now look at the look at the um where is it the the the thing about what in the purpose section this is all at the big top of the website features that that may be changes consistent with the present form of government is that what you're talking about consistent with the present form of government if you're talking about Charter commissions if you're talking about special acts by definition those are changes that are changes in this form of government you need a special act to to to change this thing that that the the mode of election of appointment the terms of office this is the central allocation the central structure of power in the charter and so I mean part of why I've pushed this really why I pushed this is because I don't think that we still have all this clear that we know what's the difference between a special act what's the difference between a charter commission how do they work in the real world I mean again when I heard Bernie say this is limited just minor changes I was like well I'm glad I'm pushing this because the issue of the scope is contained in what I'm looking at here and I don't know if you all are following me I guess it's hard I wish we were in the same room um but you know maybe to look at you know I mean this is direct quotes from the law and look at it and see what it is that's missing in the council's charge when we say we're we're you know Bernie said let's send this uh the charge it's based on the council's charge I'm trying to say there are problems with this charge and that we're not limited in the way this charge seems to indicate I thought we'd resolve this but it's not clear that we have so I don't want to go on I mean I've know if you read this they took your time already maybe take people's um questions comments okay uh comments from Andy then Ken um I feel like we addressed this uh in the letter that we sent out that that was sent out to the public that you know and in which we did say that I think we recognized what the charge was and we also said that we would consider um you know casting a a broader net and have separately having um you know other ideas that came up in our in our work and so you know the charge is the charge I mean that's what we were given and that's what was voted by the council and then the letter supplements that to say yeah we're going to meet the charge and we're going to do more uh if if that's what comes up in you know in the public we're we're interested in listening and that's mostly what what we're doing and then filtering that um so to me it seems like if we have the charge and we have the letter that we that we released to the public and we already voted on to approve it I think that covers both what we were asked to do and what we said we would do um and it and it you know it incorporates some of the the language that's I I think it it it nods to the kinds of broader you know o other other ways of changing the charter that Dan is concerned about um I think we mentioned that in in the letter that some of these things may require you know additional uh work either at the state level or in the form of a charter commission but um you know we have our charge we have the letter that's described broadly what we're going to do and I think if we have both of those things on the website and in our minds I think we're probably um you know on the right path you Andy uh Ken um I I'm I'm a by profession I'm a Communications person so words are super super super important for me um Dan when you these quotes in the and the I'm looking at your document the quotes that you you bring out but also you're also your your comments as well when you when you say Charter commission do you mean Charter commission or do you mean Charter review Commission because those are those are two no no the law the law here is that I'm completely aware I mean we're a charter Review Committee we're an appointed power you know advisory committee we have no power and a charter commission is an elected U body that has the power to to replace a government I'm I'm this is I'm very you know I'm completely aware of that I mean and these you know again the the the the the point comes back to the issue of of scope and I understand what Andy is saying that it's covered and you know to be very blunt I don't think it's actually cons this is really the central point it's not consistent with state law for the Town Council to say this is limited in scope I don't think they actually that's really my point the state law says and the Constitution says just what it says in 9.1 this Charter can be replaced revised or amended via any of the three means if it's in the charter the council has to conform to the Charter they can't say you that it's limited the Constitution 43b and the charter say you can change this including replacing it and there's no time limit on it this is really why I'm driving this home because it isn't we have the Char the charge we have to accept it I'm questioning the charge that's really what I'm doing and I I'm certainly going out on a limb here but that's why I really want to look at this if you're this is look at let's go back to what's on the page there this is what the the the council has put it's the first it's in the first line of the charge from uh September 11th of 23 and it's the same words are right at the it's the first thing mentioned on the website in that per in that purpose section can't be used to you know I'm I'm I'm asking really that the issue is that this is a charge that is saying that has left out the issue of major change both in its deletion from this quote and in this thing about saying it's it has to be it's consistent with the present form of government this is it I'm again the website we can leave the charge that's the council's business but I guess I'm really driving home the point of looking at the law that that that for us to say well that's the charge so that's what we're doing the charge isn't consistent with the law okay really what I'm I'm Ken were you done with your comment um I think so yeah okay uh Bernie and then Meg uh long ago far away I said we need to meet with the town attorney and have our role clarified we haven't done that to me it's there's no contradiction here the the the periodic review piece that's in the charter is pretty standard in town and City Charters throughout Massachusetts and it functions under a specific piece of the of specific statute and basically that says you can make changes in the charter that given a two-thirds vote by the Council can then be submitted to uh a referendum vote okay that's the process that we're operating under those processes that that section of the statute says you can't change major elements in other words you can't change terms you can't change numbers you can't change the form of government to do that stuff you need to have change form of government you need to have a charter commission which is a whole another calish and Dan you you you know I I went through and looked at some of the stuff that folks had said when they were applying to be on this committee you yourself said this is a limited scope of work and that you were willing to live with it so so we we know that and I think this can be clarified if we insist on it I think we that attorney Goldberg can clarify this with a simple letter saying yeah the charge is valid and and that'll be that there's no contradiction here um the law is a Min Splender thing and the reason why you have attorneys by the way is not to read the black letter of the law but to understand how it's been interpreted by the courts and I I really don't TR think for a moment that Council has gotten this off on the wrong foot it's a pretty standard process it's embedded in most charters in the Commonwealth uh where it hasn't been embedded in the charters C Center has recommended that it be embedded in the charters and what we're doing is we're looking at we have in front of us the doc the form of government and and what's working right now and suggesting improvements to it okay Bernie I'm gonna I'm gonna pause we can take other comments thank you Meg um just briefly I think this is a difference of opinion that we resolved already so underscoring what Andy said we've said over and over and particularly in the letter that we was in the newspaper said that our primary job is to listen not to screen or to tell people they can't say certain things but to listen to tell them what the they can see the scope the charge and we'll decide based on what we hear how to respond and what to recommend and we're not limiting uh what we're willing to consider but we're going to listen and hear what people have to say and if things are difficult to do but let's imagine there's some overwhelming opinion of something that's difficult or requires a dramatic process we're going to report it that's all we're not going to that's our job is to listen and screen and sift not report every single comment we he hear but to report the trends and the consensus the general ideas that we're hearing whatever they are seems like we've had this discussion some of I just think we need to get going with doing that listening okay start listening I'm interested in creating a logo which you'll hear about later was something that people say oh that's that committee that listens like I know it's a somebody with I don't know I just think we need to put it out there that we want to hear what people think okay thank you Meg H Andy yeah I think I I'll just say I agree I agree with Meg who agreed with me so I think I think we've said that we will listen and that we will meet the charge that's been given to us and that we will go beyond that charge uh to list other things that we've heard if we hear them uh Ken your hand is still up but I think it's from before is that right okay uh Dan um yeah I mean there's a lot of agreeing and some disagreeing going on I thought it was resolved too I mean I had brought this up a month ago uh and and as I said you know the reason I thought about the website is should the website represent us well if what we're doing is saying we're going to listen to anything and if it involves a bigger change we're going to report that that's going to be part of of our recommendations then then the website doesn't say that again if it doesn't match us and we don't care that's fine but that I hear I mean to say the issue is settled but there I just heard Bernie saying and I have to say Bernie not not against you but you're simply you're you're not correct about the standard form look at cambridge's Charter review they say openly this recommendation would require we we replace our Charter it's on the table of what they considered saying that no they only looked at minor changes Bernie isn't true Watertown had a process their biggest thing was about should we have a manager or a an appointed manager or an elected mayor it was the central political conflict in the town they took it on dead on and talked about 43b and said that just means if we were to act on this we'd need a special act you're saying it's limited and you're saying that you would submit this to the Colin Center that we this is our charge that's it the issue has to be settled because you're talking about already about soliciting a budget based on a on a charge that we're saying that we're not limited by so that there has to be clarity about this and I and I you know I really I mean maybe do we need to vote on it I mean I thought I thought we did I thought we put in the letter Charter commission special act Council act that's our scope do we need to have a vote so this issue of no the charge is limited and that's all we're doing so that goes away because it really does have to go away the law does not limit Us in the way you've said Bernie and we can go to those reports and we can look at I mean this is why I'm focusing on this gridge is a unique situation in as much as it's no and then Watertown is unique I mean you unique no you're wrong but you're that's not true I just W to pause I just want to pause here because I want to see if we can arrive at an action item because I think this I don't think that we're we're going to arrive at a full consensus on the nuances of what happened in other towns or what happened in the even in the origins of how this got to be confusing so is there a translation here at this point of of even based on our differences is there something that you want to propose Dan or Bernie or anyone about how to move forward is there some as there some action item is there some motion someone wants to put on the table and before I bring that finally back around Andy and rapael a final comment well I've already talked so I'm interested in hearing what rapael has to say so could I defer till after he talks yes yeah I appreciated what Bernie said about sort of Consulting with an expert I think a lot of these committees they lean on legal counsel to make some to to clarify things I think maybe that would help us okay are you proposing a uh the town count a town legal council I'm not sure whom but someone who can help us with Clarity around the stuff that's on the table someone who's aware deals with Charters um so I think that might be helpful to the school okay uh Andy do you want to follow that yeah I guess I I would propose that we post both the charge and the letter that we've already voted and say this is the work that we're going to do and um we can talk you're saying on the website yes and and that we and I would be open Al you know I think having the council talk to us about you know I think that's fine you know but I think the the the charge and the letter together say what want to do and I think they'll pass muster so I'm not I think my proposal would be we post the charge we post the letter and that we let that guide us okay um Bernie I think you were next you know I'm gonna agree with I'm gonna agree with Andy um you know that that we we have we have the letter that we sent out we have the charge from the council we have those documents as framework when we move forward the one thing I do want to do is quote from a slide deck that was prepared by the town attorney for another Community looking at Charter change and it says only an elected Charter commission may recommend major amendments under General law 43b a major amendment is one relating in any way to the composition mode of election or appointment or terms of office of the legislative body the mayor or city manager or the board of selectman or town manager so I'm talking about minor changes I'm talking about something that doesn't fall under 43b okay that doesn't mean that if we hear from people repeatedly that they think the uh term of office of for the council this is too short it should be four years instead of two that doesn't mean in an in after make our formal recommendations to the council under what we can do Under the statute in our charge that we can't add in a a conclusion saying we've heard a lot from people who believe that right term of office is too short and it should be so that's what I'm that's what I'm going for what do you so what do you proposing Bernie so I'm what I'm proposing is what Andy suggested okay I'm just trying to clarify where what my position is okay I'm not an attorney but period but i' I've spent a considerable am of time working in The Vineyards and you know that that's where I'm coming from okay uh Dan a final comment and then we need to figure out if we have a proposal a real proposal on the table yeah I mean my my you know the reason again I I pushed this is also further down about the stuff I think we should consider but but there is confusion I think in what you you've said Bernie which is only a charter commission can propose we're making proposals to proposers we're making recommendations there is a clear link legal distinction and saying that only a charter M we're not we don't have the power to propose formally anything we can't put anything into the pipeline we can just suggest either to the Town Council or to the people of the town that these are changes that that we have we have heard enough about that they should be considered so you're quoting that about the only the charter commission that's not apples and and apples it's not the same thing we're not we are we are giving advice to people who might act on it and Charter commissions are making formal proposals that put things into the pipeline to be brought to the voters to change so the way you're citing that Bernie is not is does not that does not indicate us that I think that that isn't clear I'm fine with letter you know again and I think it's worth it happened because here it is that where I think a bunch of us thought this was resolved and it didn't it wasn't clear so now if our clear scope we can vote that our scope is what we put in the letter which includes what's in the charge maybe this is having a clear vote about that with the on the record is we will put this issue away um that's fine with me okay so given that Andy has proposed putting both descript descriptions uh on the website one of those being the letter and Raphael has also uh proposed seeking legal advice is there a motion on either or both so I think we need to vote me I move that we put the letter on the website and that's all we do I think we don't disagree very much and we need to move on and waiting for the lawyer I just think that would extend this discussion and basically we've agree and we've seem like we've addressed this we're going to listen to everything we hear there's a motion to put the public letter uh on the website second um so that we can discuss yes Andy seconds go ahead um and I assume the charge is already on there so would it be a friendly amendment to say we will post both the charge and the letter and that those two would you know the letter includes the charge but I think the charge is important since it came from the council I friendly Amendment except I was a big question who looks at the website but we're not talking about that okay so that was a motion so that's been seconded there's a comment uh Athena you have a comment the uh charge is on the website and I would just ask the committee to make a request to put the letter on the website rather than vote to put the letter on the website because the going to do that itself but um I would offer I accept that amendment to my proposal thanks yeah it was a motion towards a vote when we when it was a slightly different scope of work so to speak um okay so we're formally asking that the letter be posted on the page um is there anything else we need to say on this item at this time I think you need a vote to request of you yes there's a motion you should vote your motion okay we are voting on the motion to officially request that the letter that represents what we are doing um that was already agreed upon as a committee is going to be posted on the website Bernie yes Meg yes Andy yes Dan yes Ken yes rapael yes and I also vote Yes uh so Athena we are asking officially I'm posting it right now thank you wow look at us getting things done um okay thank you our next next item on the agenda it is 10 minutes to 8:00 by the way um our next item is oh Andy I just wanted to Circle back because there was another piece of this that you had brought up um and you had I think it was you forwarded the the or chart that related to the question is there something you wanted to add to that effect um well just basically I um thought it would be useful to have you know a a summary a short summary for the of the charter that we can use ourselves to remember what section certain things are in and also we could use an Outreach so that people would know what we're talking about when we're talking about various sections of the charter and how and how our government is organized under the charter so this is what you're referring to this yeah so there there's that and then there's the or chart that was in the original charter uh report um both of these documents I'm previewing here are in the packet so yeah so they're both in the packet and this one I think is pretty you know there's a there's there's line there's dotted lines and there's black lines but I think in general it's pretty clear um what what the intent was and how things are organized and who you know appoints whom and so on so I think that's a useful document and maybe the two of them together would be four page or the other if you could go to the other one the charter summary this one is you know I started out hoping that I could do a one pager and there's just too much in in it but at least it's organized by article and um as I said um I I went through and did this and then I sent it to Meg my colleague on the charter commiss commission and she provided some edits and then um once we incorporated those I I sent it in so I just wanted the F the the committee to know that this exists and maybe and to take a look at it and see if it's useful maybe the Outreach Outreach committee or maybe the full committee but um hopefully it's a helpful tool and it could be modified going forward if it's not but um it's a resource that I that I just wanted people to know about okay thank you uh Dan you had a comment uh yeah I there was a second part of what I submitted and and people can say we're not interested but um there there were other considerations there that were part of what I sent and I did I miss something and yeah yeah no we we we stopped there um you know and I and really what motivated me in this is that we sent this letter so and it says some would take a you know a special act some would take a charter commission and the question I had since I'm still you know trying to understand this is do we all understand the same thing if we were asked in a in Outreach what's we saw your letter what's the difference between those things would we all be able to answer and answer in the same way so it seemed to me like a thing that was worth you know this is the bottom part of the um yeah yeah so again you know what we're talking about is the law and law is about they different aspects it's about power and one of the things is well how you access that and so this is a level of things of thinking about what we're dealing with this is a thing that interests me that I think if you're going to give advice about law understanding it as thoroughly as possible seems to me like that's um that's our responsibility so you know I have made a list of things to people think they're worth i' I've proposed we think about them if people don't want to that can be dealt with immediately we can say forget it um but I do think that I want to draw attention to this um and that the real difference is in the between a charter commission and a special Act is does the does the government cooperate with it and that and so you know this ties with other things that we're that we're talking about but but you know what is big changes who who is involved in big changes that's the big difference that a chart a special act if the government says sure we agree they'll take they'll send a petition to the legislature and you can do a major change to your Charter if the existing government doesn't agree the charter commission is the vehicle for dealing with that and amoris knows this very well do we want to think about the law in this way that's the question I'm proposing it's it's involved in our work I have a I have a comment myself and then I'll recognize you Andy um uh one thing that occurs to me in this whole discussion is that it's a um that it's a um a question of Framing and about when this becomes relevant um this particular issue about um what kinds of What kinds of recommendations or proposals or the parsing of which is which and what is a big what constitutes a big change and who is um is the committee properly charged to make a proposal versus a recommendation all the all that that entire body of questions seems to me like something that we could um take seriously and reconsider later in the Stream of our work when we're cons sort of consolidating what we've heard and and organizing and filtering it and preparing it for its next phase which is to be submitted um and that there is room in there to for instance seek legal advice or clarity as Raphael proposed um about these subtleties and nuances in the differences in how the charge is described so I don't think that by putting this aside for now and proceeding with the very very many long list of things that we need to do and get off the ground very quickly um I don't think that we're saying it's not important or or throwing it away in my mind it's it it becomes relevant and important again when we take a lot of the work that we're doing which is listening in a variety of ways and compiling a report and directing that report in various ways with very precise language to interested parties and at that point a lawyer would be great and I and I fear that in intervening any further in this question even as compelling as it might be is is going to uh sty what we what we need to move forward with and that's not that's not dismissive that's actually recognizing the importance and just saying where does that where can we revisit that question that doesn't interrupt us permanently in a philosophical Point Andy um I I appreciate that and and I'm um I agree with it um I do think that in in terms of just informing people um how a charter can be changed we could create a a very simple document that says how can a charter be changed and you know we could have the legal you know our legal council write that up and say you know a charter you know it can be changed by the council you know there's a charter committee Charter Review Committee that can propose things that the charter can approve by X you know vote whatever uh it can also be changed by a special act it can also be changed by a charter commission and what you know I don't know if that's there may be more but that that could be a perfectly informative piece of work that the council could do if if people have questions um but I don't I you know that could I don't know what the timing of that is I think it would be fairly simple to get that written up but I don't think we need to wait for it given what we've talked about I think if it can happen um sort of concurrently I think that is a that would be a great piece of work in the same vein that the charter summary as a resource um could is a great piece of work Dan yeah I I I actually when I proposed this a month ago that was what I wrote was a summary of the law I'm not saying it's we can look at it but I it it really does it summarizes three ways and their uh and different aspects of them so it's been written it's in the uh I think it's in the packet from the whatever the last Mee the meeting before last okay uh Andy did you have is your hand still up or yeah I was just gonna say that I appreciate Dan raising the issue I think it'd be uh you know more bulletproof if we had a lawyer write it out um but I think that um he's he's a eventually outlined it and now if we had a lawyer just give us you know legal legal language that says exactly what the law says about how each of these work I think you know I I'd feel comfortable with that okay um I don't know if we need a motion here I think I have I have a sense that this is something that we can that we can revisit uh We've made one action which is to share publicly on the website um I'm not sure that we need another immediate action given what we've just discussed Rafael yeah I appreciate circling back around to the legal expert I think part of our charge is to understand the home Charter rule home Charter and it's clear like there's some disagreement here I don't want to dismiss Dan's concerns and though people might share reasons why they believe one perspective or not having someone that's an expert in this space could help us all just to I I think it's been a long conversation I think I would not want to dismiss Dan's concerns but have someone who's knowledgeable expert can advise in play would be helpful okay um other than kind of deferring that question to um I mean we can we can vote on such a thing now or we can defer it to a future meeting and I haven't heard a a specific motion I I could make a motion okay I I would move that we request uh Town count Town legal council to um write us write up a short summary of the various ways in which a charter can be changed for use in informing the public I would second that shall we vote uh Ken yes rafhael yes Andy yes Meg yes Bernie yes I'll vote Yes and Dan yes okay uh folks before you move on I'm writing up this request right now um and I want to make sure that it captures what you want it to capture so if you don't mind me just Erica if I may yes of course for a second the TR Review Committee voted to request a legal memo with advice on different methods of changing the charter um you say a description of different ways yeah it's it's not necessarily advice that I would that I might characterize it as but like a a concrete description with the description of different methods of changing the charter within the framework of um I can't remember the statute that's General law thank you uh Erica Dan has a hand up oh I'm sorry Dan please that's okay um the only thing is um I mean I think Andy's original point was something for for outreach to give to people so what we want is a lawyer who actually writes in a way that people can understand if I've understood your point Andy um and those definitely aren't necessar those aren't necessarily the same thing so am I did I understand your your your what what you were suggesting Andy correctly yeah I think give us a description of the the different ways in which a charter can be changed yeah but but with with the clear that the purpose of it is for people that aren't lawyers that it's not a legal memo but rather this is a Layman's explanation right it's written for for public consumption it's I mean I don't know if you can specify that but we're we're asking them for it based on their expertise their expertise is I don't do lawyers write that way Athena do you have enough to go on Bernie you have a comment yeah I'm looking at attorney Goldberg's slide deck that explains Charter um formation and review and there's two slides here that would meet I think our requirements and I'm confident that she is capable of putting those into letter in a way that's imminently readable I've worked with a number of people on staff at KP law and they all write well and they all understand that you're you're you're writing for for public and not for um a journal article would the committee like to invite um a member of the KP law team to their next meeting or to a future meeting so if they're questions about that memo they can be answered do you like to make that part of this request rafhael I think I would I don't know whether it's you are there objections no okay I I'll include that request thank you for letting me interject youa for taking note of all that okay um agenda item number seven I don't have Insight on um Julian created the agenda and I'm sorry that I don't have Clarity on what he intended with number seven unless it was some member of the committee that added that Dan yeah it's it's it's me the Troublemaker um I intended it not as a I I have things to say but more as a question I mean you know the the the charter uh the replacement of town meeting was a was a divisive thing where like every other human Community we have divisions in us so to what extent in is there any way in which we should or how should we acknowledge that proactively or should we just say the past is past and um we can proceed as if uh it's settled what's our philosophy of dealing with um dealing with hard things from the past and again I don't want to talk I ask that as a question of you [Music] guys uh Ken and then Meg um definitely want to acknowledge that it was a divisive thing um and I was I was in sort of the middle of it without being a town meeting member um I think that's just an open thing that that that's an open subject that will come and um we accept it and listen and move on I'm not sure that it's something that's worth um addressing because it is in the past at this point so that's my personal opinion and Meg I strongly agree I just want to point out that Andy and I were on different sides of the charter commission and we work really well together we respect each other the best thing we can do I think I care as much as anybody about moving beyond the divisions is to move beyond the divisions and show that we're working together as a team we're listening to what we hear we're open-minded and just try to Model A Different Way um I would I would add that I think um I'm looking forward to I'll be very interested to see how much that shows up in the comments and feedback that we get from the public and how much that registers in the general public that perhaps wasn't deeply and emotionally involved in the um the various riffs that happened around the formation of the charter I think it will kind of emerge organically what how to what extent it needs to be addressed I don't think it needs to guide our work Dan I didn't me mean to keep my hand up yeah I mean I I think that um really what motivated is that in my experience being direct with people and acknowledging things at heart and showing them that you're curious about what they have to say and not shying away my experience is that's a way that really gets people to open up so it wasn't I wasn't bringing this up to say we should be mired in this or it should mold what we do but more what does an attitude of openness work into conjunction with our Outreach being willing to say hey this happened if you have something you want to say about it we're we're open to it again not to be mired or guided but again I think what Meg said is there is like model it model being like yes it's there we can talk we can be uh we're going to do things a different way I like the way you put that Andy um yeah I I would want to to stay in sort of in inquiry uh state of mind that I don't know the the degree to which the entire Community is divided uh versus you know a certain number of you know partisans who were and and and so I don't want to tell everybody that we're divided when maybe when we don't know how divided we are um so I guess I'd want to I think Erica's point about I'm very interested to see how much that shows up and I'm committed to being very open to whatever comes in but I don't want to you know just lead with the idea that we're divided um so I I think we should understand that there's going to be a range of opinions and that we are open to hearing them all and uh then we we we can assess the degree to which you know there's consensus on certain things that need to be changed or whether that's you know those are just you know a minority of view points so Bernie I was just thinking back to when Palmer changed the swarm of government got rid of its town meeting um that battle went on for years um we saw nothing like that and I I think it's uh you know I would agree with with Andy with Meg we just um you know we're if someone wants to talk about it wants to mention it that's that's fine but not to raise it as a topic okay um I am going to move us on to agenda item eight members meeting assignments with elected officials um and mag I want to just look at the agenda and I know we want to stop at 8:30 do we want to um wonder if we want to hear the Outreach subcommittee update because being on that subcommittee we're eager to get some feedback from people to proceed but I'm ha if we think we can do both eight and nine let's keep going I just noticed how much time we spent on this last discussion we're got 20 minutes left yeah unless we're going to keep going until the clock until we fall down but I like we expect to end Bernie I think you submitted the materials right as um as promised and um I can try to do this really quickly if everyone is in agreement you've had a chance I think to look at the list what I did was take a list of current create a list of current and former uh counselors and then current school committee members and current Library trustees and it's a pretty substantial list and then went just down through alphabetically assigned uh committee members to talk to uh right one or another uh I did a very short um suggestion around how to how to conduct an interview with folks which I think tried to keep things open-ended um that uh uh with a little bit of difference from the school committee and Library folk as opposed to the uh as opposed to the counselors um if people are in agreement to go forward with this we can um we can simply move on folks accept their assignments I will provide people with contact information I didn't want to put contact information on a public document so individual committee members will get contact information for um the people that uh the they should be interviewing I think it's pretty pretty straightforward pretty simple um and it gets us it gets a conversation started among a key group of people uh Ken uh Bernie I read I read everything that you submitted um I just want to be clear when I uh approach the the people that I'm going to approach that they understand that our conversation isn't the only way that we're asking for their inut that they can also use the public input form but some some may just want our conversation to Simply Be I'm theoretically at least be the conversation that I have with them be their public input um which of course is up to my interpretation because I take notes um so just just to be clear we should we should let them know that if they want to put it in their own words that they should really use that that input form yeah I think there's I I put a short two sentence paragraph in there saying you know to to to to tell folks remind folks that they're welcome to offer other opinions they there's other methods of contacting us and um you know they're they're we may go back to them as you know as things evolve and we welcome them to to communicate as as as little or as much as they choose um I would hope that more people would IM imitate councelor hanii and do our work work force and nice I see I've got her okay well you know did people may not want to talk yeah that's the other that's the other option um and say you know you know I'm GNA skip this and honor that um I have a question and then I'll call uh Andy um these interviews uh I think we need to have some I I appreciate that there's some a sort of standard um some standardization around like the category or the framing of of the kind of interview um I'm wondering if we need any sort of standard methods for um tracking what we hear in other words taking notes taking minutes doing recording or some combination um so that we can sort of we're proposing each time we're reaching out to someone to propose the interview and to set it up we have a kind of um we have a a similarity among what we're all doing with our with our assigned contacts okay um I I'm certainly open to that these are suggestions that what I actually had in mind was ER I think uh some work that you did earlier with sorting through communities and groups um we do the same thing that these interview that people would keep on these interviews um I would take responsibility for sorting and sort of grouping things um and and so that we get where there's we get an idea of where there's Trends and if someone else wanted to do that work as well that would be fine by me um but I would ask that people keep not made of notes but notes bullet points of the discussion and then we can and um we we can then sort and arrange them so that U we understand where people are coming from and where where we might see Trends emerging okay uh Andy and then Rafael yeah I appreciate this work and and I think it's I think we talked about this being a starting point for our for our you know for our work and something that we could do to get started um I I I I agree that they that anyone and certainly these people could um could submit you know more detailed comments or we might go back to them as we identify certain themes that we're interested in probing and um you know they they might have further things to say going forward um I along the same lines I think as what Eric was saying do we need a common for form for reporting our findings you know should we have should should we have and should we have a common um introductory email that you know or text that would go to them to say here's what we're trying to do this is an initial you know blah blah blah and some somehow we need to introduce this this in we need to invite them in a in a and it' be worth having text that would be a common invitation and then some sort of format are we going to ask each of these questions here or are we going to say we basically want to get your initial sense you know what whatever you want to tell us about you I think just having a sense of how we frame the question and then how we collect the information if we have common uh a common form that we can fill in um whatever notes we take we could fill in the form then we can sort it it will make it easier to sort it and make sure that we're asking the same questions of all the participants okay well I can certainly take a take a shot at that Andy if you have any um anything in mind or uh please you know send it along Erica or the Outreach the Outreach subcommittee could frame something as well yeah I was gonna if just uh propose along those lines that we could create a kind of a container similar to what I had sent out to you all in earlier sort of forms to collect input on we did we did one about public uh public Outreach ideas we did one about I can't remember what the other one was but a simple form that you could fill out with your your respondents answers to the same set of you know five or eight questions that you could paste in based on whatever notes or sub a text document attached um to have them all contained in one place I would I would welcome that so folks want to pull that together and I will be happy to um uh incorporate that into into any any kind of any kind of effort this is an Outreach so yes okay uh Rafael has been waiting go ahead yeah we don't have a lot of time so I appreciate the introductory introductory email idea the common form seems like it would be helpful to appreciate the work that you did on this Bernie I would say if you look at other Charter review commissions sometimes these interviews are shared with the public if you look at Cambridge they have a space where folks who have been interviewed their sort of interviews are shared wondering if that's worthwhile like talking about with us for us should this be shared with the public my intent was to share the results with the public just the results not the raw not the raw but the you know at some point um I I think there there at some point if the notes get shared enough they become public documents so um and I so they may be become public documents anyway but my my my thought was to as an initial effort to sort of get the the wisdom of the crowd if you will um of this particular crowd uh and in in in sumary form and put that out so that people could um committee members in in in the public as well because this Will Go On on the website um you know can can take a look at it my my intent wasn't to say you know so and so said this but of the folks interview these are the themes that emerged as um as positives or as uh to stealing IND phas pain points and processes and begin to like build so we could build a discussion on that okay okay um Dan has his hand up and Andy and Meg I don't know if you were still waiting but Dan go ahead um I mean I think the ideal would be to record things then you you know and if there are technical reasons not to that's that's fine but I mean if we're approaching these people and saying I mean Bernie says and I think it's good a non-directive conversation I mean if that by that you mean that they they're we give them freedom to speak they may be up for you know 20 or 30 minute conversation with us but not want us to keep coming back and so to have a real record so it isn't just um hear my notes on it but anyone who really wanted to see okay here's a here's a we've documented what we've done so that seems ideal if there are technical reasons not to I I that if if somebody wants to re conversations they're they're welcome to do it I I don't intend to do that I don't intend to make that a a standard practice keep in mind Massachusetts is a two-party state so if you're going to record someone you have to tell them in advance you're going to record them and get them on tape say I agree to be recorded of course yeah um there's also an there's a couple other approaches perhaps to consider one is to um have this if we if we agree on standard questions to sort of send them ahead as a sort of in preparation for an interview the other thing would be to for people who are not comfortable or or can't make themselves available for a a face-to-face interview um to send to send those same questions questionnaire style and collect written answers in that way so I don't think you know we don't have to standardize every single piece of it but I think having um having like our sort of preferred protocols clear to us um so that we can have a couple options for how to proceed with the four or five people that we each have to work with Meg did you have a comment yeah yeah quickly um I would prefer myself not to tape them I think that could become sort of a performative thing and hamper um the questions I have are um this would add more time is probably not worth it but it would have a little more Integrity to give first the interviewee the chance to see the notes after we type them up to see if if they're accurate or they would like to we Mis understood something um I guess I'd probably want to do that although it does add a step this other question is uh Bernie first of all thank you for doing all this work What's the timing when we want to complete these interviews well if we're gonna if we're g to come up with um I I was hoping to have them done in in in the over the next month um we can take a little bit more time some uh uh you know framework for them um or or some better way of organizing them I had this you know I had this as very loose let's have a chat kind of thing um and uh but we can formalize that a little bit more we can get get a better way of reporting this uh correlating this and I'm I'm happy to have that happen before we start what do you think about giving them a chance to see the notes before we submit them if you want to do that that's fine again I I think I'd like to do it just to be sure I oh my God she totally misunderstood what I said I had on doing that but um especially this is a guy who always complains it whenever he's quoted somebody's made it up uh at any rate I hadn't intended on sharing the notes back but um people are welcome to do that certainly um we have three minutes of our allotted time I feel like we're going to need five extra Athena is that possible for you yeah please go ahead okay um Dan and then I think we need to come up with what we're going to do with all this no my that was Rafael yeah I just want to be clear about what and how we will be using these interviews um I think the folks need to know um I don't think I'm clear yet sure using to analyze to compile a report but is the raw data to interview going to be be shared anywhere like that type of information I think matters to these folks well the intend would that be to um if the information notes come and and I'll um have to double check this but if I collect your notes and your your your your results of your interviews and compiled them and then put them out in on a standard fashion then those notes are not public documents if we bring the notes to the meeting where we put the notes on our U committee web page and they do become public documents so it depends on how they're shared if they come from one Committee Member to just one Committee Member for the purpose of compiling them then it's not a public document that's my opinion yeah what I'm saying is what I'm saying is we should decide as a committee how set interviews will be used and shared okay um then maybe we're best off uh continuing this discussion at the next meeting because I know that Outreach folks want to have some say and um little give us some time to think about how we're gonna say and use this I think that there's I I do I do think that there's this is a good amount of work and that I think it gives us a good head start to sort of give additional shape to the questions and to come up with a sort of proposal that we could agree on that has to do with the questions that Raphael just shared about how how what are we telling people about how the sort of Final Destination of what they're giving us is going to end up is it going to be made public is it going to be anonymized is it going to be summarized with their class U or is it going to be specifically quoted that kind of thing should be decided we can work we can Wrangle over that in our next meeting but but Bernie if you feel comfortable sort of putting some of that in writing um the other piece of work that can move forward is I can try to build out a container that would be either a questionnaire that each of us as interview interviewers could fill out um or patch a text transcript or some other some other container to hold all of the things we're going to generate those are two things that can happen in the intervening two weeks sure and and thank you for volunteering that Andy um yeah I was just going to suggest that we that Bernie's taking it this far and that maybe we I'm interested in hearing from the Outreach committee so I I will um brief but I think that we should maybe we should just hand this to as part of the Outreach subcommittee's work to create an introduction a common set of questions and um a holder for the results and and the process so certainly Bernie is volunteering to do work so they could say we we suggest that Bernie do the work but but if you came up with if you came up with the the common language that we can all use in the way of collecting it that might be helpful yeah would be yeah please okay okay so thank thanks for that transition now we'll talk about the uh Outreach subcommittee had its first meeting um and uh Meg do you want to report out the sort of the or not sure you don't have to I can I I've um we elected a chair that is me and we elected um I can get my notes somewhere here sorry I have many many notes from this week yeah I have I have my notes here but our vice go for it Erica our vice chair is Raphael thank you um we are um in the I just wasn't quite ready Let's see we are in the process of creating a number of things and we'd like your input one of them is to get ideas of uh email I'm make we're making a list of email uh closed email list i' I've found identified 19 of neighborhoods uh that have emails where we wouldn't have access to them directly but by finding someone other ways of reaching people other like the Indie the current the Jones Library weekly update we'd love all of your suggestions of ways to reach people that you may think of that we haven't thought of so if you could send those I'm the one Gathering those that would be really helpful um we're also uh looking for someone who has graphic design skills we're thinking of branding our look so we might have a a logo and possibly a a poster or something graphic theyd say oh there's those that's the charter Review Committee you know what whether it would be a hand up to the ear or something so that we're uh become Fami people become familiar with who we are and what we look like um we'd like um uh oh another some other ideas like see if the ammer cinema would give us some free ads when they do before you see a movie they know they have those ads I think they do public interest ads I think that go together with the um what you were saying Meg about like a list of venues and places yes publicize our activities and Meg is gonna be the collector of that so if you have Notions about uh specific uh venues or emails for email list Outreach that goes to Meg right um we're also looking for someone who has expertise in surveys so that um someone you know in the Communications Department maybe somewhere who would give us some free advice on surveys uh there's a I'm gonna just interrupt you for one second yeah thanks because I'm not wasn't ready to report so thank you you don't have to do whole report I just okay good thank you but the one piece that is really important to bring to this group is that we had a discussion uh about the public input form the one that was initially drafted and proposed by Julian and as a large committee we all agree that it needed some additional uh work and thinking before we would sort of release it um and we wanted to propose to as a subcommittee we wanted to propose to this larger group that the Outreach average subcommittee take on and manage the process of editing that uh that form before it becomes public um so that so that's the the nature of our our report I don't think we need to go further there's for us to do we've set another meeting for next week um and I think we're adding some items to our own agenda based on what this most last bit of discussion that we just had about about interviewing officials but uh we do need to sort of make a motion about that piece to sort of does the committee agree that the public Outreach subcommittee should take on the work of editing the public input form Raphael you had a comment I talked over you sorry you're you're muted yeah I wanted to make sure we got to that and also recognizing we told that you know five more minutes so we're there so exactly exactly so can I can I please make a motion um second um as I said I'm moving that the uh Outreach sub committee manage the editing of the public input form and then bring it back to this larger group for approval second second thank you let's vote Ken yes Andy yes Dan yes Meg yes Bernie but of course Rafael yes and I'll be yes so that will become part of our charge and if you could get those ideas of Outreach venues to To Us by Thursday afternoon that's on our agenda for we're having our meetings on the other Thursdays um the same time pretty much so if you could get those ideas we're going to start moving on that next week thank you sorry to interrupt and Meg those ideas go to you not us to me I'm the in exchange for not being the chair or the vice chair I agreed to collect the Outreach ideas yeah right okay [Music] um I believe we've we've basically reached the end of our agenda um thank you Erica there are other items that we want to make sure get added to the Future agenda when our next meeting is the 30th I believe well I think the Outreach committee will have much more time much more to share we didn't have that's right we'll have more to share next time so is there going to be is there going to be a link to this meeting uh on the uh on the where where is that GNA be on the uh on the website L to the recording Dan yeah then Thursday that's coming up yeah Raa did yeah yeah it's announced there's a link to join if you would like other agenda items for January 30th that anybody wants to propose now well I'm interested in the next steps on the reaching out that Bernie's working on I'd like to get I think we should get going on that remember that we added some of that to the subcommittee's work well then okay we yeah wow big agenda for the subcommittee wait hold on Bernie you comment I can't hear you I said I also put a list of department heads and the like on the you know for folks to look at I haven't thought about how we're going to approach them um that might be something that can wait until the Colin Center comes in because I know the Colin Center has um you know what they have preferred protocols for interviewing employees and the like okay uh Andy yeah I I believe that it's my charge to reach out to the Colin Center so I'll report back on that great thank you uh we will probably want to revisit the budget request with new information from either the Colin Center or the Outreach subcommittee or both so we should probably consider having that on the agenda next time um okay I think we need a motion to adjourn so moved second you Ken let's vote Raphael yes Dan no just kidding just kidding just a few more you You're Gonna Lose yes Andy yes I'll vote Yes Bernie yes and that was everyone Ken yes [Music] thank you ER good job everyone thanks good job Erica yeah awesome awesome facilitation thank you Athena thank you good night everyone thank you Athena