Okay. Started the recording. Okay. Yeah. No, I just tried the recording button, but I couldn't make it work. Um, good afternoon everyone. Today is the May 6 meeting of the finance committee and it begins our cycle of
reviewing sections of the budget uh that have been submitted to us. And I my first order of business is calling the meeting to order and making sure the members can hear and we can hear them. So I'm just going to call out the names
as I see them on the screen. Uh Bob present. Mandy we didn't know Mandy or Andy. So you take both of us. Okay. So I got both of you. So Bernie, I'm here. Thomas Tom here.
And we're waiting for Alicia. Uh, and I see that Paul has joined us. So, I'm going to We have public comments listed as the first item on our agenda. So, I am going to open it for public comments right now. Um, and I see that there is
at least there's one hand up right now. Um, so Melissa, if you can bring her in. I I could do it too if you make me co-host, but I can't. I have um made you co-host. Okay, let me I'll I'll make her.
So, Kathleen, we brought you in, so you should be able to talk. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Maybe speak just a little bit louder, but yes. Um my comment is about the capital improvement plan and just the way in which capital
um money is being allocated in general. Um, in looking pretty closely at the budgets over the last now 11 years and the capital improvement plans, what I have noticed is that there are a lot of municipal departments that have not
increased their operating expenses at all since 2015. And many of these same municipal departments are the departments that are getting increasing amounts of the capital improvement plan every year. um often for bundled type
expenses that might otherwise not meet the threshold for capital and also in a recurring way. Um and while I do understand there may be instances in which uh there would be funding limitations that would cause operating
expenses to be held um at a level services. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect that facilities maintenance and equipment maintenance have barely budged in 11 years. Um, and it really just seems as if a lot of costs are instead being externalized to
the capital improvement plan. And I just think it's doubtful that the municipal side of the budget could stay within a 4% increase if it weren't for this additional money every year. And I think that budgeting in this way is perpetuating a false narrative
that the schools are the only entities that can't stay within their means. And I think that if they also had were able to supplement their operating budgets with um capital in the way that the municipal side of the budget is doing um
it would be a different story. I also just want to add that there's almost zero transparency as far as I can tell into how the capital money is actually spent once allocated. Um I don't know where one would find um how the money is
being spent, but for example, $250,000 a year going to sustainability projects when sustainability department doesn't even exist in open checkbook makes it very difficult to track down how any of this money is being spent.
So, I just would urge the um finance committee and the council to think about more transparency and um in how this information is presented and discussed for the public because I think the way it's being done right now is really perpetuating a false narrative that's
very damaging to the schools. Thank you. Thank you for your comment. I'm just looking to see I believe that is the only hand up asking to talk. So we
are we are turning to uh Alicia has joined us. So Sharon, your first I uh Alicia Walker um has library as the section of the report she's going to be writing up. So she
also sent some questions. I realized they came in to you late u um late afternoon yesterday and I think you received at least one other set. So perhaps we can focus on the you can say a little bit about your budget and then
we can focus on some of the questions if that works for you. Sure. Yeah. However you want to. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, uh point of order, can you just check and see if we can if Alicia can hear us and we can hear Oh, thank you very much. Alicia, can you can you hear us and can
we hear you? Um, yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, great. Thanks. Thank you, Bob. I just seeing her name doesn't necessarily mean that. Thank you very much. So, so Sharon, why don't why don't you
just say a few words and if you have some responses, I know um at least a couple of the questions was you've said you've been living with three unfilled positions and you're keeping them unfilled. And there was a question about looking forward when you have an
expanded facility and then one on the current state of the endowment. So, I I'm not sure where else we want to focus, but at least those are two, you know, with you've got a move coming and then a couple years from now,
you're going to have a much bigger square footage in terms of how are you going to manage the operating budget. So, I yeah, I have a quick I have a quick spiel and then um and then I have answers to the question like you I didn't do the answers to the question.
There's a lot of questions and I didn't get them until get to them till this morning. But um let me share my screen. Okay. And let's start uh from
beginning. Awesome. Okay. Again, thank you so much for having me you guys. Um, so really quickly, the library trustees uh have submitted a request for a 4% increase to the town appropriation for
FY26. Uh, this the proposed uh total operating budget is $3,88,672 which is a 3.2% increase over the libraryies adjusted FY25 budget. Uh the trustees approved a 4% draw rate from the endowment and we've budgeted
just over $146,000 to come from the friends and community donations. Regarding our expenses, we have budgeted for a 12.9% increase to benefits. Uh 2% increase to the book purchases. All of our state aid word
award 100% of our state aid award will be used most of it 97% of it will go towards staff salaries and 3% of it will be paid to the town in the form of rent for library services at the two branches. We do expect that the Jones
will be providing services out of 101 University Drive for the entirety of FY26 and the three full-time positions will remain unfilled. And I do want to speak to that just a little bit. Um, and there are there were more questions from
the counselors about this afterwards. Um, I I wanted to say the library is struggling just like everybody else. And we've been struggling for at least the 14 years that I've been here. And the library because the library has historically taken a 6% draw on the
endowment during previous trustee administrations to fund just annual operating expenses. I think it's safe to say the library has been struggling for decades. The town's appropriation to the library has never covered the full cost of library staff, just the staff. Um,
we've always needed to use our annual state aid award to fill the gap, but usually even that isn't enough money to cover our needs. So, for example, back in 2019 and 2020, that's when we three of our longtime uh full-time employees
retired. Yay for them. Um, but we have yet to be able to fill those three positions. And that's really hard on us because the library, just like the town and the schools, none of us can do what we do without staff. We, the library system is open seven days a week. Um, we
have several public service desks at three different library buildings overseeing programming at all three buildings plus offsite to all these different age groups, kids, teens, seniors, uh, archival researches,
researchers, all while at the same time staff need to be able to get sick and go on vacation. Um, and so, you know, being this busy, well-used and loved library, it it takes a lot of staff. So, in order to meet demand and maintain staff
sanity, we really need to fill these three positions, especially once the library opens. Um, but every year, you know, just like with all the other legs of town government, we're all getting further and further away from an adequate baseline. Um, in closing, I
want to assure you we're not going to stop. You know, we're not whining. Um, uh, we are truly grateful for every bit of support that we get from the town. Um, and we absolutely understand the importance of all the legs of town
government. Um, it's just we needed to remind people what it takes to run the library. Um, now I have other slides, but I kind of just I I went through it really quickly and so I thought and I'm happy to go
back to this later. Whoops. Go back. These are uh the questions in in black are the the questions I got from counselors and in green were my my quick off-the cuff answers that I put together
this morning. Um, and so those are the endowment numbers. uh 4% in draw rate has been going on for multiple years now. Um the town appropriation is it is it sufficient? Yes.
Um I thought this was a fascinating question. Is there a long-term strategy to diversify revenue and reduce reliance on the municipal appropriation? So um on the one hand, no. Uh we're always going to be a town department. we are always going to need uh the municipal
appropriation. Um but on the flip side, we have also always Melissa, you're raising your hand. Do you want me to stop talking? No, I was just going to make sure you told them that there's a requirement um for the MARS contribution based on the formula. Oh, thank you very much.
Yes. Uh we do there is a a municipal appropriation requirement uh through the state in order to be eligible to get a state aid award. Uh um and it's it's the average of the three previous municipal appropriations
times uh increased by 2 and a.5%. Um and so we've since I've been here we've always met the municipal appropriation requirement. Uh thank you Melissa. Um, so that be that being said, as I was saying in in my spiel, you know, we need
the town for capital and personnel because the endowment draw, taking a 4% endowment draw doesn't doesn't cover those expenses. But, you know, as far as programming and and paying utilities and stuff, that's what the endowment is for. And programming, that's what the friends
are for. So, we've always done that and and we'll keep doing that and that's completely reasonable. Um, you all asked about the grant, which I really appreciate asking about the ESL grant. Um,
so for FY16 26, we were expecting um an additional $15,000. Um, but that grant as we as we've notified everybody, it did it ended in February or March of this year. Um, but what Lynn
is doing instead is she's continuing this program, but she's fitting it within her 20 hours a week. So, she has set other things aside so that she can do um complete this uh this class um which is so great. uh the friends of the
library. Uh you know, ever since the friends took over our fundraising tasks, we've gone from raising, you know, $20,000 a year because we sent out one letter a year to now we're raising upwards of $150, you
know, thousands a year plus the capital campaign. So, um we've been really lucky to have uh those folks, uh doing what they do. Um, and so here I've listed off how for FY26 we've got
$146,000 coming from the friends. And this is the the breakdown. Uh, about half of it is for circulating materials. And then there's programming for all the different age groups. Uh, the personnel costs, that's um what you had asked about, which I
thank you. I appreciate you you all asking. um what is driving the 83% you know what's driving personnel um really the uh the benefits increase and you know that's true for all the town
departments and the schools um that 12.9% increase is that's painful. Um, the three full-time positions that that are unfilled are a building maintenance person and a person to uh dedicated to special collections and a person
dedicated to the the teen um the teen space. Um, so right now what we do with special collections, you know, in all cases, we rely on part- timerrs. Um, and and for special collections, we we our
special collections department is not open the full amount of hours that our library is open. And then regarding the new teen space, um I don't envision us opening I don't envision us opening special collections fewer number of
hours. Uh and and same thing with the teen space. I I feel like the only solution to that if we can't have the full-timers is to have additional part-timers because those are really important aspects of what the library does. Um, you had asked how how much more it
uh uh we would need to fund those positions and we're looking at about $123,000 plus benefits. And I'm not sure how to, you know, is that an additional 20% uh 30% for benefits. I'm not sure how to do that, but that gives you an
idea. And have any staffing models or operational efficiencies? So yes, that's what we've been doing ever since we haven't been able to, you know, fill those positions. We've been kind of um merging departments. Uh our
our branches, for example, we've got more uh we we've got staff serving uh at at mo at both of the branches and at the Jones. Um you know, youth and teen programming. So like we're less siloed now, I guess, is what I want to say.
Um, yeah. And and then over to benefits. Healthcare costs have been increasing. What measures? Yeah, it's kind of the same to my my answer to 5C. No, I actually think I'm at 5D
there. Um, you know, what what we've been doing to mitigate um and then the difference. How does the cost of benefits in FY26 compared to FY25? Yeah, so we went from 354,000 up to 478,000. Um, that's
enormous. What is this? Oh, the materials budget. Okay. Uh, so this is the materials expenditure requirement, which is different from the municipal appropriation requirement. Um, the so there's the calculation. And the calculation is we have to spend $249,000
uh and some change next year. And so we've budgeted for $250. Um since none of this how stable are the other funding sources? Um notice my little smiling emoji. Uh is anything stable right now? And you know I kid but
I that's true for any any year you know. So yes it's stable. Um yeah uh and spending on electronic formats. This was kind of a a fun question that you all had asked. Um absolutely this town loves physical
books. Um but also there are a lot of a lot of different types of information whether it's recreational or or educational um sources that are moving online. And you know that's very often how people they're streaming their videos and they're listening to their
books through Libby. Um so the circulation is still happening. They're just not necessarily checking out a physical book. um they're they're checking out items that are digital and and we're trying to why this question
one of the reasons it is important is because so our mun materials expenditure has increased up to $250,000. But that being said, because there are so many different formats of books that we have to
purchase, our materials expenditure, our materials budget doesn't go as far as it once did because not only do you have to buy that Stephen King book as regular print, you have to buy it in large print and you have to buy it in an actual audio
um and you have to stream it, you know, through Libby. So, it's um yeah, as opposed to if you only had to buy a book, then you could Anyways, let me keep going. Uh okay, so these were questions
on circulation and attendance. So, up here, so every everything's on the increase. Um and these were just a couple of the graphs that we had put together. Our programming is really skyrocketing.
People people love what the staff are doing programwise for all the different ages. Um our attendance is coming back uh from COVID. That's what that that's what that drop there is. And then down on the bottom is these are uh snapshots
of of different formats. So, uh, circulation of books starting on the uptick and the three different colors are are ages, uh, adults, teens, and kids. Um, so circulation of audios, you know, that's starting on the uptick as
well. Videos, that's starting to come back again. But where you see, so it's not that the circulation isn't happening, it's just they're they're people are getting their information through um digital formats. And that's where that's where that green graph is
kind of going skyhigh. Um what other questions? Patron uh performance metrics. That was interesting. So um you know absolutely just like in any profession you know um you're using your expertise and you're
constantly thinking okay I just held this program and this many people came so we definitely want to do that again. and we did this program and not so many people came. So maybe we don't want to do that program. But one of the things it it's important to, you know, keep in
mind that it's not all it's not all cut and dry. You know, just because we don't have 150 people coming to blah, it doesn't mean it's not an important program. And one of the things that I highlight is our teen librarian this fall, it was either February or
March, put together a name and gender marker change workshop. Uh, you know, we had a we had a notary on on hand so that people who um needed to uh seek gender affirming changes to their state or federal documentation, they were able to
do that during this program. Now, I don't know exactly how many people attended this. It was it was wellreceived, well attended, but we didn't have 150 people the way we do when we have a magician. Um, but that being said, it was a really important
program. And uh, yeah, building project questions. I didn't spend a heck of a lot of time on these uh, because it's all we're going to close to the public next Wednesday and everything is moving at the speed of light. Um, so all
services will continue. Uh, programming will take place offsite. We're going to be located at 101 University Drive. Um, yeah, stay tuned uh for all answers having to do with the the move. um any
costs having to do with the temporary location uh or or delays or all all of those costs are in the building project budget that as opposed to the the library's operating budget. Um and then questions
about the actual, you know, building improvements, utilities, improve staff sightelines, you know, to maintain uh level staffing. Um, those were the things that I kind of picked out really quickly. So, those that was my that was
my best my best crack at those questions this morning, but I'm happy to answer more questions. So, why don't we stop sharing and Sharon, if you can send that chart pack. Yeah. Uh, we'll post it. And, uh, I was following through my the list of
questions, the printed ones, and you did, I think, a remarkable job. Thank you. Thank you. on and a short time around on not just answering them, but giving us answers in writing. So, I'm I'm going to open it up first to Alicia
and then Mandy. Alicia. Um, thank you, Kathy, although you just covered everything I was going to say. Um, so I was just going to say, uh, thank you Sharon so much because that was incredibly comprehensive and I mean you you did really answer all of my questions in a very short uh time
period. So, I appreciate that. And then I was also just going to ask if we could if I could have access to that presentation. So, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Mandy. So, as you were talking about the the
minimum materials budget that you have to have every year, which is based on the town's appropriation. Um I don't I don't have all the numbers in front of me, so this is why this question's kind of like wandering here.
Yeah. How does So that goes up a certain percentage every year. Um and it was my understanding that a lot of those materials are purchased out of um the endowment part of your budget, not the town appropriation part of the budget.
and the endowment part might not increase proportionately to what the town's contribution is. So how how does those two work together and at some point is that going to be a problem in terms of like meeting the minimum
requirement within given that those numbers might not be increasing at the same sort of rate of change. Yeah. No, great question. Yeah. No, the source of funding the MBLC doesn't care about. So if we whether we got all of our funding from the town or
all of the funding from the endowment, as long as we're spending that money on circulating materials, that's all that matters. They don't care where we get the money from. I But I guess my question is if the you know, you're up to 250, but the
endowment draw isn't that big right now. I don't think it it just didn't go up, Mandy. it the endowment draw they held it constant the the slides that right and this is why my question is not well worded because I don't have numbers in front of me but that the
town's dollar amount of increase and that's a 4% increase every year and you have to pay spend 13% of that on materials every year or whatever our number is right um but that's a larger increase in terms of raw dollar amounts than potentially a 4% draw increases
over the course of on the endowment side. And I guess I'm wondering does that yearly increase in required materials spending become problematic given who is what portion of the budget at this point
is trying to cover that number because the town's contribution is not covering even all of the um personnel costs. So other portions of the budget that were normally covering the material costs are now having to first cover personnel and
there's less money. I'm not wording it well because I don't have numbers in front of me but and and I so so the municipal appropriation the town appropriation only matters when when we
are calculating the materials expenditure requirement. Yeah. So, um, if it would be a problem if, for example, if the municipal appropriation
were level funded for three or more years in a row, then you're right. When you do the math, it you we wouldn't be meeting the municipal appropriation requirement, but that's different from the materials expenditure
requirement, which uses the municipal appropriation requirement just to calculate what that number is. Um, but then it doesn't matter what sources you use. And I feel like I need a dry erase
board. Um because you run numbers to to to ask my question the way I'm trying to ask it. So we could get in trouble but we never have since I have been here. The last time the library was in trouble was when everybody was in trouble in '
08 and '09 and that's when uh this you know the MBLC will give out waiverss. you know, you have to fill out there are more forms you have to fill out and you give a you give a presentation to the MBLC gods and um and they provide a waiver and and yeah, I'll just stop
there. But if you want if it'll help once you have those numbers in front of you and um I'm happy to answer better. Thank you. And I'll try to ask the question better. Bob. Yeah. I had a just a couple of um
couple of nits. One one nit was on the first paragraph of the expenses, which is you you the the last sentence of that is as a result of all the library staff or town employees, the town's appropriation no longer covers 100% of the library's personnel cost. It's been
that way ever since I've been on the finance committee. Yeah. So, exactly. Maybe you should reword it that that I mean I it's fine for you to say it doesn't cover 100%. But no longer implies that it it had like list last
year when in fact it hasn't for several years. Will will you do me a f tell me where that is because I agree with that. There's a paragraph under expenses in your your uh the thing you your your budget that you the one that was posted. Yes. Yes.
Got it. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. And then um that's a good knit. Yes. And then the question I had and and you know I know that you're you're you're down three people, but will you need the same number of
people in at 101 University that you need now in the current library? And is there some way to repurpose some of those people for other tasks in town in the interim?
Uh, so I one of the reasons I'm okay not filling those positions right now is is because we're in this building and and and we're going to be to be going to 101. So, no, I'm I'm not looking to fill those positions right
now. Um I got very nervous you know when when for the past you know two plus years with the schools are really struggling and so what I normally do and what the trustees normally do is we kind
of because we've got this building project going on um we've kind of taken a back seat so that the the not enough resources can be spread spread around. And
so I I don't like to storm the castle. Like that's not my it it's not the way I can be a library director. It's not the way I can in good conscience come to the town council and say, "Hey, this is why we need the money." So, um, I felt like
I I wanted to bring this to the top of the list, trying to find that happy medium between not whining, but still wanting to point out the fact that when we open the new library in a couple of years, we're really going to need those positions because special collections
really is going to need another full-timer and the teen space is definitely going to need another full-timer. And so when I heard about the possibility of us not getting that same 4% or 3% or 2% or whatever everybody else was going to get, I got
worried. Um I I So this was me trying to let people know. Um does that any of that make sense? My point is is I don't want those positions right now. I I want them when the new building opens. Understood. But the
question I had was given your current staffing, will you need all those people in at 101 University or can some of those people be repurposed in in other parts of town? In other words, like like what we did in in COVID where we
repurpose some of the recreation staff to work elsewhere. No, because we're still, you know, we're still open seven days a week. We still have to provide our full level of library services. I've still got to, you know, staff the two branches. So, no, we've got the only
thing we don't have at 101 is space for programs, but the programming will still happen. They'll just happen elsewhere offsite. And then, um, you you know, I understand that the the costs of 101 and all the movement and all that is all in
the the budget for the the reconstruction and renovation. Is there will we get a report on though on the expenditures uh for those that project? Uh yeah because I want to see what what
you know where that expenditure is and how much is going to the town and etc. Yeah, absolutely. You know, when we started with collers a decade ago, you know, they were on board and they were giving, you know, detailed detailed budgets and then, you know, they kind of
took a back seat last summer and and Bob Parent has been doing God's work. Uh, and so, you know, Kers will be brought on and absolutely uh very detailed uh budgets will be presented to everybody definitely. Okay. Thank you. Thank you,
Bernie. Hi. Uh, thank you. Um, Sharon, thanks for thanks for all your good work in in the work of your staff. I really appreciate it. And this is sort of a staffing question as well because full disclosure, I live about a quarter mile
from the Mson branch and I enjoy very much just having to stroll down the street to pick up my books. Um, but we do have a relatively small space here in town and you have two branches and you have a staffing crunch. So, uh, the
question is really how long do you how sustainable do you see those two branch libraries being given that you um you have an increased demand for for staffing at the central location and you want to be able to help schools and uh
and do some other work. So, it's a question about viability for for the North Arist and the the Mson branches. Yeah, I um uh gosh, no. They're going to be there forever. Old harmless. Um I
don't what else can I say about they will be there forever and ever and ever. Uh this town really values the branches. um even if you're a Jones user um it it's a different experience at the branches and
um and so never in my time and and it's not that we haven't been afraid of losing money since you know in the past 14 years I
would the the type of budgeting that I would do or when I have to do cuts I tend to cut everything equally. Um, and I I can only speak for myself right now. Um, you know, it's not it has not gotten to the the point that it did in
'08 and '09 where things were very very drastic, but I have always felt like there isn't one department, and when I say department, I mean library department, that's more important than the others. We need the branches. We need special collections. We need ESL.
We need kids. We need adult circ. And so if if budgets are cut in my mind, they should all get cut. So I Thank you. Thank you. Well, I have a flip side of of Bernie's.
While you're at 101, have you thought about increasing the hours at the branches so that um people would be diverted to one of those two places? Um so yeah. Yeah, maybe. Um
so we're not going to right away um because we need to know how many staff uh this is kind of happening like that. uh we need to know how many staff we need here to close up and to move and
then and then to settle and then there's going to be a lot of interl loaning between the three buildings um uh because a a portion a sizable portion of the collection is is going to go uh to
Mson um and so there there will be movement there will be deliveries so at this point. I can't guarantee additional staff to allow the other branches to increase their hours, but that has been what I've
wanted to do all along. I just don't know yet. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So, I'm not seeing any other questions. So, uh as on behalf of all of us, thank you. Um thank you. Thank you
for the very responsive answers to these questions as well. Um, have a great day. And, uh, I see Mandy's hand went up as I tried to close this off, but here we go. A question. I wanted to in in with the thank you say thank you for staying within the council's guidelines. Um,
that makes our in my in my thinking about budget reviews. It makes my budget review of your budget much easier because you're within our guidelines. So, thank you for staying within them. Right. Thank you for your work. by you guys. So, thank you. So, now we're going
to swivel or pivot to capital. Um, and this is the uh capital improvement plan. It's a five-year plan. Um, and I sent in some questions and Mandy sent in some questions. And just
uh both Bob and I so uh people I think everyone on finance knows both Bob and I also served on the joint capital planning committee. So um I know more about all the columns in this report
than I would otherwise know and all the rows. Um so some of my questions are about the outy years but I think first um maybe we can focus on just FY26 or Paul I don't know how you and Melissa
want to handle this. So I had some questions about FY26 that I have a lot because the budget is balanced for anyone who looked at it. The budget is balanced in FY26 and it is very much not balanced in the other four years and it's less
balanced even than when we saw it on April 23rd. Um FY27 is running running a $4 million deficit if everything on the rose comes to pass. So, so how do I Paul
I don't know how you want to I had some very specific questions um as did Mandy and do you want us to just go through those questions? Do you want to do a brief you or Melissa want to do a brief brief presentation on the CIP?
Um, I think the easiest thing is to address the questions that the counselors have and I would rely on Melissa and Holly to sort of address them. But, um, yeah, I think just go through the questions that most concern you would be the best way, most efficient way to do it. Okay. So, I'll just start off because some of what I
was doing was comparing um what we had seen just we gave you very little time to get this yours finalized because we were still meeting late, but the you to to shift money to be able to spend more
on schools, you lowered the 10.5 for capital down to 10.65 or what I think that's what it is. When I looked at the rows, I didn't see any of the projects change. If anything, roads were up just a little bit. So, it looked like what changed is your
estimate of actual debt and projected debt. And that's where you got the you needed about $150,000 to lower that. And am I right that that's where that's where the adjustment better numbers on actual debt
and projected debt? Yeah. So I was um you know some of the projected debt numbers were in there from from prior years when we started the year you know and so as we get closer um Paul and I just got off a call um a few hours ago
with standard imports for our bond issue for um in a few weeks to do a lot of the debt. So, we just had better numbers. Like, the closer we get to issuing that, and honestly, those are my guesses, they'll probably I I I estimate a higher
interest rate than what we'll get. Hopefully, you know, that's typically how it works. Um, and so, you know, they might we might even have a little more room. Um, and my um, what we did last
year or this year and what I would um, advise and I know that Holly and um, Jen were were in agreement with this idea is that if there are sometimes savings in the debt estimate, what we do is we become more aggressive on the payowns of
the the bands that we're rolling over. um and which is which also allows us we pay down um we pay down debt this in 2025 that was scheduled to roll for two or three years. So those those big payments because we had uh estimated
debt that didn't come to fruition i.e. the library we didn't borrow for the library um and there was so therefore there was no payment for the library in um fiscal 25. So we took that money that we had estimated for 25
and spent it on another general government purpose in the debt so that we don't have interest on um I don't know there was something for the police you know the police chiller we had started to borrow for that but
not the full amount so instead of instead of paying down a small amount of that we paid down all of it um and so other things like that we we paid down as aggressively as possible so to the extent that we have a do um we we've overestimated our interest costs
and we have savings of say 20 or $30,000, we'll pay down one of our debt payments an extra 20 or $30,000. And to the extent that we um that the interest rates change dramatically and I've
mis calculated, we also put in um sort of an extra I think it's $123,000 of what if oops. And so if we don't need to use the what if oops, you know, of like the interest rates didn't
go from three to five overnight, which they might, I don't know, you know, then we'll we can take one of the projects that we're going to pay down on next year and pay an extra $100,000 down on that. So then the future years are less expensive. You know, that's that's sort
of the the movement in that estimated debt number. Okay. I've just, you know, I had expected to see that you would have to lower a project spending and you you mainly reestimated the the debt. And one
of the things I noticed just on this, and I don't want to stay too long on this, is that the library, which is now a live project, uh the the when when I look at the debt table, you don't have um a number anywhere near what we had
been looking at on an annual basis for FY26. It's it's much lower. Um correct. So that is the um interest payment on the short-term debt only because this is um this is not
this we have not borrowed the 15 million um permanent borrowed the $15 million town share yet. that is scheduled for at this time, you know, assuming everything keeps going as planned, uh, for the spring
of fiscal 26. So, um, there is a small bar uh, cash flow borrowing that is in there now of 2 million. That $85,000 is um is the interest on that debt.
the when we renew the whole thing, the the when we when we when that becomes due in a year, we'll roll that into the 15 million that we'll borrow for the town share. And we won't we will only make pay principal payments, which what you showed in your estimates in prior
years was that that that the town share had been borrowed and that we were paying principal down. And so I wanted to segregate that as one distinct, you know, number. Okay, we're going to permanently borrow for the 15 million. We're going to do it on this date and every principal payment is
towards that 15 million. And then any um sort of so there's that's why that's why it's less. There's no princip there's no assuming of a principal and the 15 million hasn't been borrowed yet. Okay? Which would be about a million bucks a year, which is what you're
you're used to seeing. So I I won't I won't bel label this one because it basically every number on the debt changed from what we saw you all the way throughout to 31 and we're now instead of 10 years projection we're at
six years. Um, so I liked the 10 poll. I'm going out further, you know, in terms of watching the big buildings come online, trying to figure out what we would have. I think 10 is So my other quick questions and then Mandy's hand is up. We both asked um why not show
chapter 90 somewhere. Um, we're getting state money for roads. There's a blank on state aid in the current CIP. That has always been a line. And I understand that it's different. it's a grant, but one suggestion was show it as a footnote
that there is, you know, 800 or whatever the number is so that people understand this isn't the only money we have for roads. So, I'm just not sure what the rationale is in this part of the budget uh deleting a line that we have always
shown as a source of funds for for roads. Um, and then all of my other questions are on are we being tough enough about the projects in FY27, 28, 29, and 30, you know, to bring the the how are we setting priorities? So, I'm
just going to stop with those so that Mandy can jump in, but can you just explain why we wouldn't somewhere show chapter 90? I mean, it So, I I can answer why I didn't show it. Um, and like I've said
in capital planning and several times is that we don't show any other state grant in the capital plan. It's not part of the capital plan. It's not part of JCPC approval and the number that has been shown there is not consistent with what we actually get. So that is the base
amount and as you know over the last several years the um actual amount for chapter 90 has been increased by the governor's office um and so that number goes up and down. It it was an estimate put in there for the base number for
chapter 90. And then also um you know there are other chapter 90 not chapter 90 monies that aren't necessarily that are like uh they do specific projects like um I don't know what is it like they do
uh I want to say like they're they have they have different names. Help me out Holly. What are the three three other things that sometimes come in that are also road funding but not specifically chapter 90
and not maybe as flexible as chapter 90. So it just it's it's a it's kind of a number that like we could put you the the base number there which is a calculation of miles um in town based on a formula that
the state um you know tries to beat or has in the past number of years that I've been doing this um tried to you know increase the chapter 90 funds and just to be consistent as to these are not funds that uh no other state aid
comes into this uh process and nor is it part of the um part of the JCPZ JCPC approval process because it's already been designated to where that that money goes. Um similarly there are monies that
are supplementing other projects in the JCPC project um JCPC um plan uh in the fire department in the planning department etc. And that that's that was my rationale. So I wasn't questioning it on
JCPC. I mean we just we as you said it's money that is is assumed and will be spent. I'm more, as Paul knows, as you all know, when the f this past fall, people saw a drop in our cash to 500,000
and focused on that and didn't focus on the fact that that wasn't the only road money. So, I feel like we have to capture it somewhere. And in the capital improvement plan, putting in four sentences saying in addition to our cash
capital, we're getting X and Y and Z. Um and and C you've got it. I tried to find it in a big budget book, Paul, you know, way back at the back and I found something called chapter 90 plus. Um but it's it's just it's understating what we
have available for roads is my is my main point. Yeah. Yeah. So I I guess my response to that, Kathy, is that um the JCPC can put what they want in the project. This is the town manager report and we chose not to put it in. So it's a judgment call. I understand what you're saying and we
just decided not to put it in in this pro in this Well, we don't have it either. I mean, it's it's it disappeared and it was in last year's CIP and the year before in in the in the six years before that I've looked at the CIA. It's always been there. So, I just point out that it makes it look like there's a
drop in road spending. So, I'll I'll leave that off. Mandy, why don't you come in because all of my others are on the outy years and what we're planning to do about them. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'll just I I'm going to start with my questions with the current fiscal year
because I I had a lot with the outy years too, but with the chapter 90, um, I just want to comment that it's not in the big budget book either, as just Kathy said, under grants. And if Melissa's referring to it as a state grant, um, why isn't it listed in the
grants page of the big budget book under DPW state grants? So with Kathy, I'm with her on it should be somewhere in a budget and it's always been in the CIP and it's not there anymore. Okay. But then why
isn't it under the state grant section on page 200 or whatever 256 I think or whatever I just looked at um of the big budget that lists all the state grants. Um but moving off of that um
um three sort of largeish questions. Um, I'm going to start with the electric school buses. Um, the CIP has 200,000 in funding for electric
school bus and charging infrastructure as well as 250 for sped vans. Um, the elementary proposed FY26 budget has a transportation line for quote new vehicles budgeted at $80,000. That's on
page 93 of their budget. Um, on March 24th, the council, as you know, authorized the superintendent to enter into a contract for public transportation services nominally for the lease of electric school buses. And so right now I am frankly extremely
confused as to what of all of the money is electric school buses. Um why the elementary school has $80,000 for a capital purchase in their operating budget. That might be the contract we
just authorized the superintendent to enter into. But yet our CIP has $200,000 for the purchase of buses that we were told in March were going to be leased at a cheaper price. So can you
just clear up what is going on with all of those numbers for me? May I Paul? Okay. So, um, so I this I believe this was covered in JCPC, but that it it is a
lease that 200,000 is a payown on the front end of the lease. So to lower the ongoing operating cost and so it is both um it is both capital and it is also a maintenance agreement. So it it is
partially um operating and partially capital because leases are t first of all leases are typically you know in operating budgets like because they're maintenance agreements and this includes both
infrastructure building of charging stations for the buses that they are leasing and maintenance on those buses just like if you lease a car like you know you get a certain amount of ongoing bumper-to-bumper warranty So everything except the tires are covered under that
lease agreement and so is the um maintenance and infrastructure set up for the charging stations. So the 200,000 is a um that coupled with some other grant money they have is how they're trying to pay down the front end of that lease. Just like if you were to
go lease a new um car, you could choose to do a larger down payment in order to help um you know defer the the ongoing year-to-year cost. So So Melissa, I think it's the 80,000
in the elementary,000 in the elementary operating and maybe that has to be dealt with on Thursday. the 80,000 in the operating budget of the elementary school for um as they said new vehicles, right? It's their it's their lease. It's
the lease that's the ongoing lease the annual lease payment and the 200,000 is the sort of down payment on the lease, right? I think if correct me if I'm wrong on this. I think what they said is that if we can get some money upfront from the
capital, we can our ongoing operating costs would be lower over the future years and that would help our budget and that was seemed to be a reasonable request. Okay. My next question related to the buses is also related in some sense to
the 450 um,000 budgeted for sixth grade moves. Um and then I'll get to and that is last night um it was said that for the transportation some of that
is is um for the charging infrastructure but that the charging infrastructure will be put on regional school property grounds but it's my understanding that the town is the sole payer of that charging infrastructure.
capital improvement um cuz it's but it's going to be installed at the middle school which is regional school property and same with the 450 in Ammerst capital funding for the sixth grade move some of that is for improvement to the middle school building uh which is not a
building that the town owns um and so what kind of agreement is is being looked at or considered for those capital improvements that are being 100% paid for by the town of Ammerst on property
that the town of Ammerst doesn't own such that if that property were ever to be sold or divided because of future potential issues with region um or consolidation of that building into you know the the educational building into
one building at the high school. Um, the town's I believe the agreement is that the town gets 80% of whatever essentially 80% of whatever that sale and all is, but we're putting 100% of the improvements in or something. So, can you talk about how
you who owns all of it? Um, who owns the improvement in the assessed value at the improvements we put into the physical building of the middle school? Who owns the charging infrastructure? How are those agreements happening? So, Paul, I'll I'll take the busing
thing because I've been involved in that project. So, all of our buses are um stored at the they're owned by the elementary schools and so therefore our town of Ammerst property, but they are
gared or parking lot at the middle school. That is the parking lot for all of the um all of the transportation buses and or vans and uh obviously the site for the charging infrastructure where it's going to be set. Um
the because the infrastructure is leased who owns it is the leasing company. And just so you know, you know, we kind of like when you um I mean, we we'll be able to buy it out in the end, but I I don't know the
the end, but I do know that the all of the buses are owned by the elementary school, I airgo the town of Ammerst, but then they have a recharge agreement for use of those
buses for the region. So, it's always been a an inter um school uh adjustment that they do where they one owns the asset and the other pays a service for the asset. They have they have a service
agreement between the school and the um the elementary school and the region for busing services. Um the details of that, Shannon tells me, are very complicated and I've never seen it, but it is a process that they go through uh every year for each part
of that um busing calculation. Um and Paul can speak to the um the sixth grade move. Yeah. So, typically when you lease space from a landlord, which is what the elementary school is going to do with the region, um there's an allowance for
leaseold improvements, but that comes out of, you know, we're we're renting it on a very small amount. There's a in the regional agreement, it talks about how much we will rent, but so if we want to rent the space, the the tenant has to make the leaseold improvements to accommodate the the activity they want
to hold in that space. the landlord isn't going to make that improvements. Those improvements stay with the the property just as if you rented a space and you made improvements to a to a rented space. It stays with the property and unless you know the way we see it
is, and this has happened with Ammeris Media, unless you can like unplug it from the wall. We're not going to pull wires out of the wall, but if you have a something that's attached to the wall, like computer equipment or something like that that you can unplug and carry out of the building, that goes back to the the elementary school district. If
we ever if a year later we say we don't want that space anymore. Um, so and then the improvements stay with the building and then the town of Ammerst or has the 80% whatever it is stake in that building. So the value stays 80% of it
stays with the town of Ammerst if that building were were to ever be you know disposed of in some way that may not have that particular improvement have may have no value to whatever the future uses of the building. But in order for us to occupy that space the district has
determined they need this amount of money to make it accommodate the sixth graders moving into the middle school. I think that I hope that makes sense. That that does. I I have some other questions regarding that amount of money, so I'll stick on that topic
that's not about who owns the improvements. Um, originally you intended to use money from ARPA for this. Um, and clearly you're not anymore. And you've booked the ARPA in, but for the bank center, you booked the ARPA into health insurance and then
asked us for a thing for free cash to and it'll all balance itself out. So, I'm curious why you're using CIP money instead of nominally ARPA money instead of essentially free cash um for this.
I'm also curious what kind of um I guess reports or determinations were made to figure out how much was needed especially since there isn't an agreement with the regional school committee as far as
I know to actually permit the sixth grade to go into the middle school at this point. Um, so, so why is it in essentially the question is why is it in the CIP instead of waiting for more solid information and asking for it out of free cash like you did with banks?
So, we we I felt an obligation to have money available to the regional to the elementary schools for the sixth grade reloc uh relocation. That's something we had said earlier in the ARPA um funding that that was a commitment that we had
we had made along with uh other things. Um I wasn't confident that they would be able to actually expend the money um in a timely manner under ARPA. So rather than lose that money, we had it we put it into our health insurance and it was
going to fall to free cash. But I still felt the commitment to meet the re the uh the promise to the to the elementary school that we would provide the funding and this is the avenue we chose. I guess we could have gone in for a free cash request. Um it's sort of six of one half
dozen the other in some ways. Um but I think that that's um that was the reason that this is provides for that in terms of the actual number. Melissa was did Shannon give us additional Yeah. So Shannon did provide um I think that they
had some preliminary estimates from a previous um look at this that they had done that they had um built some escalators in to um and then I think that the original request was for 350
and in um the in the JCPC um there was a discussion and about how comfortable she was with those numbers because she is basically using really old um estimates um and just trying to
build in an escalator and the um they collectively um meaning the committee of JCPC and um both um Shannon and Mr. Gallow whose name first name I forget right now. Um but the new um
facilities manager or facilities director um thought that if that they would be more comfortable with 450 as an estimate and anything that they didn't use will go back to to to the to the
town if if if unspent. It was just um I know that's kind of how they came up with that number. Does that seem accurate Kathy and Yep. Bob about how that went. Yeah. Yeah. That and and Mandy, they they listed out some of the physical changes including carving up a
a small space for sort of a an administrative of or clerk office as well as uh doors and some of the and painting and rehabbing it. And my the other thought I had because I had asked this of Paul when we saw this on the
list and I says is it double counting that this money will be available starting July one of the coming year and to the extent we're going to certify free cash it's not going to be till November. So this money this provides
money to actually go out and get the estimates and get some of the work done over the summer potentially um you know if if the schools can focus on it you know while the school is not occupied and they could actually uh start to really get
get um get focused on it. I think the notion that if it comes in under, we will know about it sooner rather than later because this is all much more time dependent on those three-year-old appropriations that haven't spent yet. I
mean, this uh we're talking about this, it needs to be ready by uh in 2026 for the school opening. So, we because the numbers were old. Rupert did the numbers and he had specifics. the original request was
500,000 from ARPA and so I was surprised by 350 and then they said that these were all old numbers um and old meaning had been done the year before Shannon got there so we went up to 450.
So one follow-up question on this one if I may. Um Paul, you said it really to you didn't make a difference between using free cash or the CIP plan money, but um that 450 coming out of CIP means you can't put 450 into roads
on July 1. You can't put it into other projects on July 1. You're putting it into this project. Um, so is there a plan to essentially when free cash is certified
in November, like are you going to point to 450,000 in potential capital expenditures and say this is what it would have been for the school, so now we're going to put it to capital or like have have you thought
about that too? because it might not matter from like spending the money point of view, but it does matter for how much capital we're doing otherwise. So our our habit has been to, you know, when we get free cash certified, we have
our sort of system for allocating the funds and then if there's additional funds available coming in for an appropriation. If you recall last year, we did ask for a million dollars for roads and the council ultimately did approve 500,000 of that. So I think that that's the way we would go about this
the same we would use the same process. So So Mandy, one of the things we did in the JCPC report, but it's then a question of what the town manager and staff are going to propose back to us was at our finance committee report is
indicate should money become available. And we put roads up on the list. We also put uh we pushed off the southeast intersection design because there isn't a choice of what we would do. So we thought you don't put in design money
till you know what you're going to do. So we had those listed. If we know what we're going to do, here's some potential. And then the we pushed a huge amount of the vehicles. If you look at vehicles in FY27 almost with a few exceptions,
almost all. So we had roads, the intersection, and vehicles at the top of the list for which of the we didn't have a discussion of the vehicles that weren't recommended for FY26. We didn't have a discussion of which were the most
urgent. You know, if you had to pick one, where would you go? So DPW had one they really wanted. I don't know whether it was the most urgent, but it was moved out. So we listed those as potential. Um, and it was a street sweeper um of
250,000. So, so we we looked at some of those, but we really had no discussion. Um and part of what we were recommending is a vehicle policy. So, if how would you decide what is the most urgent of
the vehicle purchases? Um because we cut down on everybody's vehicle going forward. So, those were the three areas we flagged. um aside from the middle school roof, you know, on but but we flagged some as here are some places
that we know everything was moved into FY27. Yeah. So, Bob, I don't know whether you want to add to that, but that was our thinking on that that that clearly things were bumped out. Um, you know, one of the big bumps, um, Paul, and I just want to say we, last year we
agreed to a bundle of 500,000 broadly called roofs, um, for maintenance. Um, this year the bundle got bigger. It went to a million and it was for anything, you know, anything building related, uh, whether it was infra outside of the
building, the top of the building, the inside of the building. And we were told that zero of the 500,000 appropriated last year had been spent. So there's in theory 1.5 million. I think one of my requests is we really
start need to start accounting for that. So just banking it. Um Stephanie's done a very nice job with sustainability fund to say here's here's was 250 here's what it was spent on um when she reports up. And then she also said, "Here is what
we're planning on spending it on in FY26." So it was a and this year we didn't have that with the million other than there's 11 or 12 million of everything that we could spend it on. So a million is a drop in the bucket was kind of rather than where will we go
with it with a suggestion maybe town hall roof but it's not enough for the town hall roof. So I think that's a a bundling may be a good idea flexibility wise but with it I think comes a lot of accountability.
So if I can respond to that if that's okay Bob. Um so I I think the um few few things. So the the vehicle that the DPW had was involved in it's a it's the vehicle that has the lift on it that lets us repair um light fixtures. It was involved in an accident so it couldn't
be utilized. We needed to buy a new one so we can keep doing the work and we will get some reinsurance money back from it. I think there's going to be some salvaging of the actual truck itself, but the the lift in the back of it that that's why that was promoted up. Um and I think you you know we have been
work we don't have it finalized yet but there's been a really serious for the first time ever uh analysis of all the municipal buildings and you know including like so we really have a much better sense of what the needs are of the buildings and I think at this point in time we don't have specificity on
what would be a priority but we do know the needs are are dramatic and um I think they I think you're right Kathy to say report back tell us I think we wanted to give our facility people some flexibility in saying, "Hey, we're doing a roof at Atkins Reservoir. We could
actually do another roof and get more bang for our buck if we also do this roof or that." I think that's the the you know, the logic of it is to give some flexibility to our experienced capital managers to to make judgments on that. Their their philosophy is to make
sure water doesn't get into the buildings. That's job one is to protect the buildings and that's because water is the enemy. And then from there all the other things happen and there there are some other things that there might be a bathroom that needs to be renovated because of handicap accessibility or
something like that. But um but that's generally and I think by you know I'm not sure exactly what the timing is but we will have all the reports. They're doing a building by building report this company that's been brought in. So we'll have a much deeper analysis of each of our municipal buildings and what the
investment is going to be. I think we're going our eyes are going to be popping when we see what these numbers are because they all need significant investment. And just as a side note, that's I think that's you know um and talking with Ammeris College that's one of their big things is deferred maintenance that they they're really
recognizing that as a as a major something that we share is about how we're not investing enough in our buildings to maintain them at the level we think they need to be maintained. So I think this year is one of those we don't know we know we need more money but I think the approach is to account
for it and say here's how we utilized it and I think that's the same with sustainability. You know we didn't know there was an option to buy um batteries for our fire trucks and ambulances until well into the fiscal year and um that was a really that was money really well spent.
Can can you potentially add Crocker onto your list of buildings because I was very we were I realize it's a school but you did Wildwood and it would just be Crocker sitting there with big big needs out in the front but doing that same assessment tool you know just trying to
think of uh you've got a tool that and then you're so I'm just it's a check that yeah okay Bob yeah I was going to say the same thing that that the approach is is really for flex flexibility and um you know we we trust
that the facilities guys are going to spend the money well. Um and also I was going to put in a plug for Crocker as well because we don't we haven't done that for Crocker and I think we need to know what Crocker needs um at the same level that you know
because it's basically the town money even though it's going through the school. That's a good idea Mandy. Yeah. Um I have two more questions with regard to next the proposed spending for FY26.
Um, the first one, it struck me as interesting on page 13 of your actual budget book, not the JCPC, not the CIP book, but the budget book that you wrote that the town remains focused on core infrastructure needs, particularly the repair of roads and sidewalks and the
construction of new sidewalk connections to enhance safety, mobility, and walkability in neighborhoods across Ammerst. Yet, the CIP includes no additional money for sidewalks. that's zeroed out this year. Um, so to me, the
statement in the budget book that you're focused on those core needs, including new sidewalk connections and repair of sidewalks, and then the statement in the CIP basically that says, but we're not going to fund any of it except potentially outside. We're not going to fund any of it outside of chapter 90
because sidewalks have a zero line versus roads that have 775. If I read it correctly, um I I see an $190,000 for sidewalks. Am I Am I looking at the right thing? No, it's definitely There wasn't any
190. It was It We We got a 100 for traffic calming, 50 for lights, and public works sidewalks around town is zero in FY26 at the document. I'm looking at on page Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm
sorry. Yeah, is isn't it 50? No, it's zero for FY26 and it's listed as 50 in the outy years. So, I I wanted you to speak to that dichotomy
uh because it doesn't really ring true. I don't have a good answer for you right now. Okay. Um, and then the other one was a statement you made on last night about traffic calming money that that was increased from 50 to 100,000 because there were a lot of requests and and I I
guess I wondered I'm always concerned when we increase money because there's specific resident requests without having done um sort of going through the typical prioritization process that we might prioritize the squeaky wheel instead of what isn't squeaky but might
need more. And so I'd like you to talk talk about how DPW is going to make decisions on how to prioritize this. Not ignoring the residence requests because that's a good way to inform what needs done but not
necessarily prioritizing them over things places that residents might not be speaking to, you know, can you speak to that? Yeah. So, I think Andy's probably got to talk about the proposed new committee um transportation parking that would help facilitate that decision-making process. I mean, and I
always like to think the squeaky wheel should get grease. I mean, it's squeaking. Um but if you have a wheel, you should grease it, but I'm not saying that is a priority, obviously. Um but I'm guessing what you're going to say, Andy, were you going to talk about the
TSO process? Yeah, I was just going to briefly say it because it'll be in the thing that we're going to circulate to the counselors uh for comment. But what we're thinking is
that having a transportation and parking commission that will in we're going to propose to include uh two counselors one being um from this committee either the chair or the
chair's designate um is being one of the two and u then key staff from various positions as well as three residents with
expertise that we will have a body that is really able to uh prioritize and identify what are the um highest priority projects and that that
will be a much sounder process than exists now because we don't really have a good process presently. No, no, no, not not wanting to offend anybody by saying that, but we really think that this is one of the great
improvements that can come about by establishing the commission. Uh so that is uh what we're envisioning to occur and what we want to do um is also
recommend to move the citizen requests having to do with um public way transportation and parking issues and move that from JCPC to the uh new transportation and
parking commission so that you can center it all in places where their expertise. Uh Bob is also on TSO and I don't know if he has anything you want to add to that. um not specifically to that, but I did
want to mention that um when the issue of um of of resident requests came up, uh Guilford was very clear that he has his his own way of prioritizing things and that these things wouldn't necessarily move to the front of the
line. So, I don't think we there isn't anything in this. We just decided to increase the amount of money Guilford had to spend because clearly traffic calming and there I've had two or three
um people write to me just in since then traffic calming is a big issue in town and so we thought it was important to address it. That's what I was going to add to Mandy. We didn't add these. He actually said, "Sure, I'll take a look at it, but it's part of a bigger list
and it doesn't necessarily go to the top of the list." And I just want to make one thing on the way we describe traffic charming. In one of our pieces, I can't remember the CIP, it talks about blinking and warning lights. I would
like to add street h uh humps uh street bumps, trap bumps and humps. the we we have a preference for the blinking lights, but one of the ways so I'll try to point it out to you, Paul, but when we describe what's in that
bundle, the word uh traffic hump, speed bump, traffic raise position, none of that was there. It was just warning lights, blinking lights, and so a lot of these requests are to literally slow the traffic with a some kind of a raised pavement.
Um, but we didn't put them at the top of the list at all. There were just a lot of them. Yeah. Bernie, you're muted. I'm gonna change gears just a little bit. I don't know if folks want to talk about traffic. Can I just say one last thing to Bernie before
you do? Sure. Um, so I what I think one of the motivations for this putting fund side is the council was approving, you know, considering and approving, you know, these trafficcoming measures. There was never a budget available to really implement them. So we're taking them out of existing budgets. And so
this is a way to recognize that there is an interest amongst, you know, for the town council to take these uh traffic calming initiatives. This puts a little bit of money aside to actually implement them. And I guess the only thing that I would add in response to what Cath adding to
what Kathy said is uh we were also assuming at TSO that if we esta if the council decides to establish the transportation and parking commission that it will not be limited to the
listing that occurred um in the description that was given in the capital plan. It was to anything that the commission itself would determine um is appropriate expenditure of those
funds to achieve the goal of traffic calming. Okay. So Bernie Bernie ready to switch. Okay. Um I'll just throw in paint. Uh which is also a great cheap way to do traffic coming. Um, so if we have fog lines that are a little further away
from the curbs and and the like makes the road seem smaller and will help. Uh, my confusion with the uh capital budget is uh one capital budget question, one comment. Um, the fire department public
safety radio system replacement. We we will recall that last year that created some because it was $900,000. We we got some uh questioning about that. Uh it's back in the budget word for word but at 1.1 million. So my
question is what happened to the communications system? So um the communication system was split uh last year. So it was
originally 900,000 and 900,000. So this is the second year of that project. And then um what we learned from the um from the fire um well from the public safety officials, you know, because uh this this is although it it comes in under
fire, it is a dispatch um police and uh fire system so that all of the public safety um radio systems can talk to each other. and they um they said that the
unfortunately the cost of of implementing it has gone up. Um and I know that they have gone out to bid on the first half of the system um recently
and I'm not sure if that has come back in but I know that there were um some issues. And this is a continuation from the previous appropriation. Yeah. So it's actually $2 million. So I just want to put it out there that it's not only is it not 900,000, it's 2 million. $2
million. And and I will add that it's $2 million if we get our bids up before the tariffs kick in. Correct. Because then it can be much more expensive. Uh I I just want to do make a comment about the the allegation that uh
certain departments are padding their operating budgets with capital money. Andy will recall from our previous service on the finance committee earlier iteration of finance committee and and I sure hope that the folks who are on the served on the capital improvements
committee will will will make the point that uh requests are pretty carefully rogued off and that stuff that should be in operating budgets are in operating budgets and that uh that's a source that's been an ongoing source of concern that we don't um and some tension
because as we tightened up the definitions of what's capital and and looked at it uh it put some additional pressure on the operating budgets themselves. So I just want to make that u I just want to make that point to assure folks that uh uh the the staff
and the finance committee understands the difference between capital item and petting your operating budget. So I Andy I think your your hand is up first on my screen. So it's Andy, Bob,
and Mandy. The question I was going to add is ask is something that I had a brief conversation uh with Kathy about by email. Uh and it
is that the u improvements to Southeast Street can that were started as a discussion because of the u anticipation of increased traffic going with the new
um elementary school building at the Fort River site. Um that now is proposing that the U design be in FY2
um 7 and that the construction be in FY28 and u I was curious what the thinking was about that because that certainly then pushes it back to after
the school is open which is actually a discussion the TSO has had is but I was wondering what the thinking was um as far as uh constructing the CIP how that came about
and um what is the intention because I think we need to coordinate the processes among the committees. Um, I I'll I can speak to it, Andy, but just uh and we did rank that high if
certified TA cast cash cash is available at the end of this current calendar year. Uh the the concern was putting design money in, the design money might be spent without an agreement on what
the design should be. um that you could really spend the money quickly and that since we weren't at a point of agreeing on what should happen there. Um Guilford originally asked for 500,000 for that.
He said the lowest he could go was 260. Um but he didn't give a what that 260 would buy. And when he was asked suppose where we want to go is some better traffic lights um you know including a bus control traffic light entrant and
exit and just traffic system lights on both uh how much design money would that cost and he said the lowest I will go is 260 was the answer. I mean it wasn't you what about if we're doing a roundabout and we're doing the lowest I'll go you
know so we the the worry was the money will get spent unless we are sure about what we're designing to um that it would be a repeat of getting back what we just got on the four traffic circles which
weren't met with a harrah and the estimate for the cost of whatever was 6 million And I looked at the uh what we're spending on the roundabout down at University Drive or what we spent on
Pomeroy. And for a roundabout, it's more in the 1.5 million. So that number didn't seem to make any sense either. But we didn't focus a lot on the six, you know, like could it be lower? We mainly moved the design piece off. So I
would rank it very high Paul if we have certified cash and if there's some agreement on what should happen there. Um there is and then the only other point is there it may all disappear but the state has money called intersections
near schools where they will put in grants up to $500,000. So if we knew what we wanted to do we potentially are in line for a grant but we would have to apply for it. So, so that was we pushed it off because of the abstractness of what we were
hearing, not because we thought if there was agreement on what we wanted to do, yes, go ahead and design it. So, the design cost seemed to be no matter what you wanted, it was going to cost this much money, which didn't seem to make sense. So, so the the uh TSO was told
that we needed to spend some money with consultants in order to have DPW uh draw plans to even see what was feasible that we because what we were
asking for is u you know some of an analysis and presentation by DPW W just to give us the ability to compare those two options that you described and uh
who uh the response was we don't have this the capacity to do that without getting some assistance. So I'm not sure how this whole calendaring works out then. Well, he didn't say you were down to
two. He did talk about doing a mockup and blocking and a matched major design. And I just I just worry that the money gets spent really fast if you're not moving toward an agreed on solution. Um
and I will say, you know, I wasn't the only one that reacted this way to it. And the other thing I think I'm reacting to is up here in North Ammeris where the intersection there was extra work done on it that didn't match what people thought we were applying for it didn't
get funded but there was a lot of design early specking out work. Um, so I think getting clearer on what direction, as you know, I'm not on TSO, so that it was the haziness of the answer and it didn't seem like there was a focused use of
that money. Um, uh, that led us to say we weren't ready yet to spend it and and if we waited, um, so it may not have been the best decision, but that was where we ended up. Bob, you might want to speak to it,
too. Yeah. Yeah. The the other thing uh Guilford said was um if we're pushing this to FY26, we wouldn't have the road prepared by the time the school opens. So in in
some respects it's it's it's a bit of a mood issue because we're not going to have whatever it is we want to do won't be ready for for September 2026 when the school kids are going into the school.
So that that's what Guilford said. So I mean there was I I think to me we really have a chicken and egg situation. We we need either the council or TSO or somebody has to sit down and decide what
are the options we want DPW to look at and then we need to move forward with that because right now I I don't I'm not even sure what options we have to look at. Um the other thing I wanted to mention about the the the police and
fire system is the first year's money really goes to the base stations which are the sort of the broadcast stations and then this year's money goes to to units that are mobile units that are going to be in the in the cruisers and
in the fire trucks and then carried by individual uh police officers and firefighters. So it it's really divided in it. It's one of one big project, but it is divided up into those pieces. Um,
so anyway, Mandy, yeah, I'm going to flip grounds to some of my other questions, but I'm going to basically combine them. A lot of them had to do with the CIP for the five-year plan out yours is much worse than it's
been in the last couple years. it's not anywhere close to balanced in FY25 and 24 and all. We had worked really hard to get it close to balance. Um, and much of that lack of balance, this is why there were multiple questions cuz I write the questions as I go through and then never
combine them. but um seemed to result from dropping from the CIP a pending list and moving nearly all of the projects that were on that pending list in FY25 or FY24 um into the actual CIP
for the 5 years. And that pending list included things like the Cracker Farm playground, police body cameras, Puffers Pond dredging. Um those were ones that the pending list said they'd be funded through grants or other sources when funds are available. Pop puffers, parking lots and beach improvements, war
memorial playgrounds were projects that require more development and analysis, but they've been moved into the five-year plan creating this wildly out ofbalance five-year plan. Um, so can you
speak to why they were dropped, why the whole pending list was dropped? Number one, why many of the projects were moved into the five-year plan, including projects that said they needed more development and analysis or projects that there might be grants and would
only be done with grants instead of keeping them in a pending list. Are are we giving up on the grants? Are have we done the development and analysis for like the parking lot and trail improvements and stuff so that they are logically now in the five-year plan?
Please talk to the thinking around all of that. Do you want to start Paula or do you want me to? You can. Okay. So, uh I All of those all of those items were continue
to be requested by the departments. So, they are pending. They aren't pending. They are real legitimate requests. And that doesn't mean that they've given up on the idea of getting grant money, but as we experienced with um Sean's project
for the um disaster recovery, he he didn't get the grant. He'd hoped that he would and he didn't. So instead of um removing it completely, we ended up funding a smaller amount this year
for the most um urgent need and it is put into the subsequent year, not as pending, but as if that we're going to apply for the grant next year and hopefully we'll get it. And if we do, then it will come out of the capital um
plan because it doesn't the these grant funds don't show in the capital plan. Um and so um but I also didn't want it to come back the way that other things have come back where they're like, well, why is this the first we're hearing about that?
They're like ongoing needs. They're new needs. They come into the plan. So you can put things in a pending list, but to me that's just like, oh well, I wanted to force it to balance. and doesn't that look pretty and it's not based in reality. So that's that that was that's my logic on it and you can disagree with
it but that's that's sort of where I went with that. Um and then um so I would say that all of the departments are acutely aware that funding is unavailable and that we are in a a deficit for these capital items. um but they wanted their needs to be reflected
and so that's how we reflect that and then every year we need to make uh choices based on their priority while they continue to seek other ways to um fund those those projects and many of our projects as you know come through that are partially funded by CPA and
partially funded um through the CPI project and we don't know the balance of that and some of our grants especially around parks have matching requirements so you're going to You have to, you know, the total amount of the project needs to show up in the CIP because if
you ever have gotten a park grant, I believe Ammerst has done several, but park grants require the town to take on the full cost of the job uh project as far as an appropriation, which is typically done in a borrowing, but then ultimately you only borrow for the
amount that is the town match. So, I think that was that was my logic. I know that there is disagreement on this committee about why it was done that way, but that that that was my thought process when putting um the the work
together. Well, no, I wouldn't speak to this too. So, yeah. So, I think the question is this is a planning document, you know, it's not a it's it's a planning document. It's a capital improvement planning document that says what are our needs? How are we going to
place them on the outy years? Are we ident are we capturing all the needs and are we making decisions along the way like what are the priorities and I guess it's you know we've done it two different ways and I think the whole point of this is to communicate to the council and to the public what are our
needs and I think it's it's an open conversation like which is a better way to present it is it better to put them on you know log them in and show that we don't have enough money to do everything we want or is it better to balance out those outy years and say we have this wish list also And um you know I think
we've we've done it both ways and I just sort of welcome your thoughts on how what what's the best way to communicate it's a this a communication document like what's the best way to communicate what we want to say on this I guess is my question. So, and did you want to speak to because
because I this was a half a discussion on JCPC, but we didn't really get into it. And did you want to speak to it? Yeah, the only thing that I want to add to the comments that were just made by Melissa and Paul is that uh if a
playground shows on the list that people are really interested in for FY27, given the nature of who our constituents are, they're going to be some advocates of that playground who
will have seen the CIP, have looked for it, have gotten excited. and will be very disappointed and will be coming back complaining to whoever is involved in town government in FY27 that that playground
that was promised for the year was not developed. Whether it's dredging puffers pond or playgrounds or trails or anything that people are interested in, you have to be prepared for the uh complaints that are going to come when
that year happens and it does in the construction that was proposed the capital investment that was proposed is not made. So Paul, you said you know it's it it's it may be a preference or what I think
of as a planning but uh putting it on an action list and saying everything on the FY27 28 29 is an urgent issue I think is the mistake is what we're we're pointing to that
that uh Dave uh Dave Zack when talking about puffers the puffers on the list if you add it up is more than 5 million dollars and a piece of that feels really urgent. You want to make sure the dam doesn't break and that the dyke holds.
And then we talked about the the water quality and it's not clear that dredging will solve the problem. It's an up they think it's an upscreen. So some of these others seemed we would like to do it as opposed to urgent. So he talked about I
was put in a box before by Shawn McMano. box was called the if money becomes available, these are the top things we'd like to put back on the agenda. Um, and so what Andy just said, I think that's a
better way of presenting the choices we're going to have to make than showing a five-year plan where only one year is balanced and the other years are broadly out. It looks like we didn't make decisions. And then my other point on
this is we've got these buildings coming in and we've been told in a separate session that there's only going to be so much money for new projects if the buildings start coming in. So the implication of that there's only so much
money. So we we have to start prioritizing. So I think a planning document needs to say these are important but they're not at the same level of urgency and that's why they're not on the list right now. It's not that we don't know about them and that it
writes your plan a little bit differently. You know it it has a section that talks about that rather than just dismisses them. So that's why when uh um I actually was going to was recommending that make some choices on
puffers and pick the one that is urgent and leave it on the list and then talk about the others if we we can move forward on it because puffers is clearly a treasured resource. But seeing it on the list, people are going to think we're going to fix puffers and we didn't
even have any insuranceances that spending all that money the water quality would be okay. So it was like, whoa, that's a lot of money to fix a beach, put in a bathroom, you know, etc. So that's just the it's I realize it's a
judgment call, but I think judging getting nearer to balance. Um, so that was just one comment I made and it looks like fire station has been moved off a bit. I think we in finance and we in the council need to have a conversation
about do we move some of the money out of the capital stabilization fund to make DPW real, you know, to make sure we can pay for it. And that would show a different capital plan because it would show some money coming in from a stabilization fund as a source, but it
would be matched with a use, you know. So, just trying to think of if that's part of the thinking now, starting to talk about it would be a good idea. Um, and I'll stop on that, but that was just my reaction to
urgent versus priority or urgent versus very urgent versus if money becomes available as a good way of ranking things. Mandy. Yeah, I I agree with Kathy. I I thank
you Paul for sort of which way is the best way, right? Um but I agree with Kathy and and frankly what Andy said the minute it shows up on those five years in those charts starting on page nine eight people think it's going to happen
even though page seven shows that clearly not all of it can happen. Um but they get invested in it then, right? Which is I think why in previous JCC's we pushed to have that chart more balanced because people do look at it
and say, "Oh, the playground is there or dredging's there." Um without realizing $3 million has to come off of this and and all. Um so I really appreciated the pending list. And maybe there's a different way to do it. Maybe there's a color. I I think JCPC there used to be a
color coding of the chart that starts on page eight, you know, that had like various colors of what's been moved to from various years, which got very confusing, but maybe there's a way to create sort of two charts that are equivalent to page eight. One that's got
here's what our plan as of now is. Obviously, that will change and maybe we need a little bit more wording about, you know, presentation of what these charts are. this is what we think the next five years of projects will be that fits into our budget. And then there's a similar chart after that that says, and
here's the next level of priority if more money comes or if we get grants for some of the stuff in because what I heard from Melissa was, well, we didn't get the disaster recovery grant and so we put it in to fund it here because it's that important. is Crocker Farms
Playground or is the War Memorial Playground that important that if we don't get the the grant, we're going to do it out of our CIP money or really is it we're waiting for that grant, right? And and that's we need to find a way to
clearly put that information into the CIP because people look at this project and say, "Oh, we're getting a new roof and we're getting this and we're getting puffers dredged and trail improvements and a parking lot and no, we're not getting it all." And so, how do we how do we
communicate what of not just those are some of the big ones. So, those are some of the ones that if you pull out would would help the the projects balance, but maybe they're not the ones you pull out. Um, maybe you start pulling out all of the cars and say, you know, we're not going to do when I get to vehicles here,
$2.8 million worth of vehicles next year. Um, and and we're going to start pulling them out or, you know, we're going to rethink that or we're going to rethink the Cherry Hill Golf Course EV charging that showed up this year. I'm
I'm happy that there's an EV charging and cart shelter in the plan, but is that our highest priority? Um, it just showed up and yes, we need to track it because we want to do it, but what where where in the list should it
be when we have money or is that going to when we get to FY28? And if it's still there, is that taking precedent over some other $175,000 project? Has it bumped up and all? So, I would go with balance the
budget. Keep either a pending list or some other thing that tracks the projects. I agree. We should track what the departments need. It's a good way to show the town how tight all of our funding mechanisms are and all of the choices we are
making. So, I don't want to lose that that visual and that transparency, but we should be thinking about in five years when we only have 3 million in cash capital, what what right now are that
three million most important projects and let's put them into this five-year plan and move everything else off into pending or some other way of listing it. Bernie, you you almost need two lists.
One is this is what we're going to pay for out of cash at hand, free cash, whatever or through borrowing the town's going to pay for. And this is what we hope to do with other other people's money whether it's you know whether it's a grant or a reserve fund or something
else so that people can more easily discriminate between how we're going to pay for all this stuff. Uh that seems to me to be a you know a problem overall and we're certainly not going to solve it in this discussion this afternoon because people seem to think that uh
uh there's a a budget god somewhere that will just throw money down on us when we put something on paper. Um and we go through the struggle everything. But I I I really do think I I would like to see a comprehensive list of what the town
needs. Um but that may be again the best way to do that. Maybe divvy it up. This is what we we this is what we need and this is important enough that we're going to pay for it out of pocket. We're going to pay for it out of available funds. This is what a wish list we're
going to try to get grants for. And then this is, you know, blue sky thinking. Um, uh, you know, if we had all the money in the world, we we'd do this stuff. Uh, it's a little more work, lot more work. Uh, but it does make it
easier to pull apart the the affordable projects versus the wish list versus the um, this would be would be nice if we had it kind of things. So, so if I'm hearing the counselors right, what I'm hearing council, several counselors saying is that we would like
to have a five-year plan that looks doable. We don't want to lose the list of all the things that we have to do or we would like to do to make our town the town we want. And that would go into a different list, but it and it could be
prioritized, it could be not. Um, and then sort of identify how much cash capital we have to work with. um and and sort of say and what Bernie S saying allocate those try to allocate those funds as best we can. So you know I
think there's two different approaches. One is this is a needs budget versus a you know what's available to us. So um you know we'll we'll talk that over with our staff and think and talk through this what what the options are. No I think you captured Paul and you said
early on it's a communication document. We're trying to communicate. Yeah. And I think Andy's right that people latch on to a number in year three of the project. They say, "We're going to get our new playground." Whatever it is, it could be a truck or whatever. In year three, we're counting
on it. Even though when you go to the bottom line, you know that there's going to be a million dollars in cuts in that year. So, yeah. And fortunately, you're not giving us operating budgets that are $4 million in deficit two years out, you know. So, I mean, it's a similar way of thinking
that we're we're trying to plan our capital in a way that we think we can afford it and then we we know what else we'd like to do. Um, and how you communicate that it's not that we were ignoring these other pieces.
Okay, I hear you on that. So I I also do want to say I realize the um intense stress that this has all been produced under you know in terms of both you know the you know getting JCPC
budget and schools all running on the same track um that decision. Yeah. Can I just say I mean I do I mean our team has been working I just it's been amaz it's just been totally amazing what you've accomplished and and just made a a knock
them out presentation this morning with the um standard employers. So um it's just you know these folks have been working their butts off. So I just wanted to recognize that. No and and so this is not a it's it's constructive advice is the way I would put it rather
than Yeah. No, no, not not not anything else other than uh you know the the pretty pictures. You know, I think if anything we've gone overboard on the pretty pictures and stuff and and and tried to say what's the message we're trying to get across here um and try to
think about it. So Andy. Yeah. No, I just wanted to follow up on what Paul said. Thank Paul. Thank uh Melissa, Holly, Ay, I want to thank you and Bob for serving on
JCPC. The amount of work that has gone into thinking through what our capital needs are and how we can go about organizing and funding them is just a tremendous chore. Having been on JCPC
many years myself, I've lived too, but you guys just did a fantastic job this year. And we're u kind of now getting a little bit lost into the amount of information and detail that you provided
for us, but we wouldn't have had this conversation if you hadn't provided it to us. So, thank you. Thank you. Well, then and Paul, just you know, however you thank all the staff, um we we had amazingly robust conversations,
you know, and I I think quite honest conversations during JCPC um uh on in including a challenge on can't you drive your police car more than 100,000 miles? Why does it collapse? But but now I've been looking at and it looks like Ford
Explorers are often collapsing. you know, like it's the particular vehicle that may be a problem, but who knows whether there are other options. But the the the reception to those questions was so cordial and a willing to discuss rather than um say, "Well, wait a
minute. What do you know?" It was fantastic. And and Melissa facilitating them, making sure people knew we were raising the question and got them back into a meeting. Um various groups, that was terrific also. So big thanks to your
staff. Great. Thank you. And I'm I get have 358. So if we have a motion to adjurnn, we could end on time. I'll make a motion to adjurnn. Why don't I do that? I'll second. Tom second it.
And I will do a quick uh vote. Uh Bob I. Kathy say yes. Mandy I. Andy. Hi Tom. Bernie of course and and Alicia
left early as she said she would. So we are adjourned and next Thursday is schools. So anyone who hasn't looked at schools and there is a set of questions that has been sent to the schools. So thank you all and have a great rest of
your t Tuesday and thank you staff very much. We