Okay, we're recording. Please go ahead. >> Okay, good morning. It's uh October 16 at 10:00 a.m. I calling the U meeting of the count town council town services and
outreach committee meeting to order. We have four members present. Um and uh that constitutes a quorum. We uh do not have Mr. Hegner with us today. Uh he is
uh had notified us in advance that he would not be available. So uh with that said u I would uh just wanted to remind everybody that this meeting is being
conducted via remote means. members of the public have access to the meeting uh by Zoom and by telephone and that was uh announced. It is pursuant to the uh
current open meeting uh open meeting law as enacted by the legislature of the commonwealth. so we can proceed. And I want to make sure that everyone um can hear and uh that uh we can they can hear
me and I can we can hear them. So, Council Ryan, are you present? >> I'm present. >> And Jennifer Tab. >> Jennifer, can you hear us? >> Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. I was my screen got
covered with the agenda. Yes. >> Okay, >> I can hear you. >> Uh, and council Lord >> present. >> Okay, so everybody is here. Uh, Chief Ting, um, I was wondering um, are is
there an issue that you would like that that you feel that um, uh, you wanted to be present for? I was >> Chief Tangan. U Mr. Mo are here for the 151 amity. >> Okay, both of them are here for that.
Thank you very much. Um because I wanted to um let's see who's in the um audience if I can. Um,
we usually do public uh comment at this point in the agenda, but I don't know if we want to um cover the uh an issue. So, that was one 51 Amity
Street so that the chief and uh uh Mr. Mo, superintendent Moing do not have to stay. Let me take a look. Um >> Jennifer, you have your hand up. So
>> um yeah, I don't know how you want to handle it, but I do see some members in the audience who are who may want to make public comment about this item. >> Yeah. And now the question is uh whether we want to
bring them into the meeting later which I will ask about but I think maybe we should go ahead and uh ask for public comment um and if uh it's okay with uh everyone and do public
comment as we usually do at the beginning of the meeting. And public comment uh can be on any subject within the jurisdiction of the committee. It does not have to be an item that is on the agenda for today's
meeting. Um people who are in the audience who wish to make public comment should raise their hand when uh they're brought into the room. We request that they identify themselves by full name. uh let us know if there's a preferred
pronoun that they want uh us to use and uh to identify uh where they live. They don't they can either give an address or just state the district they live in. Uh they don't have to give an exact
address. And uh we will take uh public comment on any topic that uh fits within the description that I've been I've given and we will uh limit each public comment to three minutes and uh I'm
going to go in um order. Somebody has uh named Joanna has a hand raised. Uh Joanna, could you uh please state your name and uh your address and then u go
ahead with public uh with what you want to tell us? >> Sure. Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Hi, I'm Joanna Morse. I use she her pronouns. I live on Flat Hills Road. Um I'm writing about the um lack of reappoint of Alex to the
Conservation Commission. Um, I had written the town council and um, manager Bachelman about this and uh, Mr. Bachman wrote back and said that he agreed with much of what I said, but I'm very concerned with um, a sentence that he said. I'd like to just address this
around the basic issues of democracy in our town. Um, he, this was basically the reason he gave for not reappointing Alex He said, "My sole motivation was to choose the best candidate and more importantly to ensure the commission and its members function in a manner consistent with the
town's standards and values and best protects the town's interests." So that's his quote. Um, so while he is saying that um, he agrees with me, this is exactly the opaque lack of transparency that I was referring to in
my email to town leadership and that is a dangerous slide away from dem democratic government. Um, I would like the manager, but I want this to be, you know, said to the town council as well to give detailed outlining of what are
these standards and values that he's trying to uphold. He must be more specific if he's going to be not untransparent. Um, and which interests of the town are being protected by Mr. not being reappointed. Um, if he
does not explain this, it appears that he's making a decision to eliminate a vote and a voice of someone who was willing to speak up for wetlands. And something that may not always be in the interest of elected and appointed leaders in the town. And that's my largest concern is that we need to have
people on committees and boards on the in town government who may serve as a check on executive and legislative power and may not always um just rubber stamp
the um the agendas of of town leadership for an actual democracy and not just a facade of representative decision-making. We need to include members of boards who may challenge the status quo and raise questions and it and Mr. has been someone who has
spoken up in the role in his role as conservation um commission member to protect wetlands and the environment which might get in the way at times of development interests by the town, but that's the job of the commission. I I
I'm not at all speaking to um the whether the person that he that Mr. Bachelman is appointing has you know I don't know anything about her and that's not my point. My point is the absolute lack of democratic uh decision-making in
this process and transparency and um I expect much more of our town leadership um to actually demonstr demonstrate transparency and be clear about what the standards are and not to have the standards be something that is upholding
um the interests of elected and appointed leaders. Thank you. >> Thank you for your comment. Um and I will note for you and for others that uh this is an item that is on the
agenda for later in the meeting. Uh Mr. Balman is not available at the beginning of the meeting but is going to be available later in the meeting. So that is why it is going to be uh postponed till the second half of the meeting
after he is is available. Um, so Mickey Wrathben. >> Yes. Hi. Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Okay. My name is Mickey Waspen. I live in South Ammerst.
I'm also I'd like to comment on uh the Alex uh issue. I'm very disturbed to hear that Mr. is not going to be reappointed for another three-year term to the Conservation Commission.
I understand that although reappoint isn't required, it is customary except in rare instances where the candidate is deemed unfit for the position. I think with these volunteer positions that are
critical to the town's function, it's it's important to have continuity and I think that's why three-year terms are generally uh re-uped. By all accounts, Mr. is highly qualified for this position and has
served very conscientiously and effectively throughout his first term. We depend on these hardworking volunteers and should not subject them to arbitrary and capriccious treatment. Wetlands protection is extremely
important for the health of the environment. They're not just arbitrary lines drawn on a map. The Conservation Commission's job is to enforce regulations that further conservation goals, and these certainly include
wetlands regulations. As I understand it, the Conservation Commission has repeatedly requested at something like eight hearings that Archipelago submit a plan for its uh development behind uh Atkins in South
Ammerst. They've asked at least eight times for Archipelago to submit a development plan that abides by the wetlands regulations. Um, and Archipelago has refused to do so
again and again. Alex has been a leading voice on the conservation commission in demanding that wetland standards be complied with. Um, when Mr. asked the town manager the reason why he wasn't being
reappointed first, the town manager said he didn't have to give him a reason. Later, the town manager suggested that there was a reason, but he wasn't going to disclose it until later, and he still hasn't done that. In the meantime, and
unless the town manager does give a a compelling reason, I think Mr. war's reputation is being maligned. I think there's a suggestion that he's done something improper. Um, and I think it's incumbent on the town to come out and
say what it is that he's done that makes him unqualified to serve. Um, I think under the circumstances it appears that Mr. is being punished
for taking a pro- environment stance. Uh if that's the case, this is just simple corruption and it's unacceptable. The town manager's actions send a loud and clear message to everyone who might
want to volunteer to serve on a town border commission. If you don't tow the town's line, you're not going to be allowed to serve. uh town manager has implied that there's something wrong. >> I need to ask you to conclude the three.
>> Okay. I'm just going to say if the town manager has a legitimate complaint against Mr. he should say so. And if not, he should reappoint Mr. and let the conservation commission get on with its business. Thank you. >> Thank you.
Uh, Rebecca Maser, I believe it's Is that the correct pronunciation? >> Yes, it is. Thank you so much. Um, I am uh thanking you for considering the parking space issue at 151 Amity. Uh, I
live at 151 Amity Street. I hope you can hear me. I am in the car, which I realize does not speak super highly of my abilities as a driver. However, I would like to say that it is very difficult to pull out of our driveway with the current configuration.
We take our uh sort of lives and property in our hands so often and I feel that I make myself into a public nuisance trying to pull out of space because it is absolutely terrifying. Um people fly down Amity Street. Um and it's not just making a left that's hard,
even making a right. I promise you. And I know the off, you know, our chief police officer is on the call. I promise you I do my very best, and we all do, to pull out safely. Um, but it's just a terrifying prospect every time. So,
thank you for considering getting rid of that one spot. Um, and, uh, I really appreciate all the work that you're doing. Thanks. >> Thank you. Uh Mickey Wrathman. >> I think we already heard Mickey. So I'm
going to Maria. >> That's right. Um Maria is somebody named Maria. >> Yes. Maria Kapikis South Ammeris. >> Um you can hear me I assume. Yes.
>> Yes. Uh, so go ahead and uh just give us your area of where you live. You don't have to give it. >> Yeah, I got it. >> Yep. So, Maria Kapiki, South Ammerst, I am speaking to you today about the comm conservation commission appointment
process. So, let's I hope that you read the uh two letters that I've sent you so far, but I just want to recap what's happening here is that an individual, a resident, a volunteer who has served
admirably for three years has had allegation. Well, actually, no. The problem is that there are no allegations. There has been insinuations by the town manager that this person has done
something wrong. But there is absolutely no specific allegation. Mr. has not been told anything. The rest of the town has not been told anything. There has been no evidence. If there was something that had happened sometime
during his tenure, it was not brought up to him. It was not discussed. And now this person is in a position where he cannot defend himself. He cannot refute allegations that don't exist. This is
not he said, she said. This is just he said and she gets no say whatsoever. This is horrible process. This is not the way to treat anybody, let alone
somebody who has given endless hours and done excellent work as a commissioner. This is not acceptable. The TSO and the town council have a responsibility
to fix this. The process itself is not working. It needs serious reform. Mr. was not granted an interview when he submitted his calf. Another member who was another applicant, sorry, who was just appointed was given an interview
months ago but didn't get appointed till a couple weeks ago. You need to vet these nominations. You have a responsibility to do this. There is nothing in the charter. There is nothing in state law that prevents you from
doing this job and making sure that everybody has a fair shot to serve their town and to not be treated this way. This man's reputation and character
are being materially harmed. You need to do something about this. It's your responsibility, town counselors. You're the only ones that can do anything about this. Your role is to supervise the town
manager and your role is to make sure that these processes are fair and you're representing the people of Ammerst. >> Please do that. >> Okay. Thank you. Uh,
I would ask you to finish up if you have any final comment, but thank you. Um, I know that we haven't heard from somebody. Um, Pete, uh, why don't you
pronounce your name for us? Standar, >> you need to unmute, Arbor. >> No. So, please state your name and uh um give us a general indication of where you live. Um
>> don't have to give an exact address, but uh an area of town or district. >> Peter Snder. I live at 151 Amity Street as well. I'm in unit one. Uh pulling out of our driveway is very exciting. Um, if
I uh pull my car out far enough to see, which is to say when I lean over the steering wheel as far as I can, look left, I can see up the hill. But of course, uh, before the library construction started, people regularly rolled through the stop sign on North
Prospect and were going 20 or 30 miles an hour when they came around the corner. So, uh, I've been honked at several times. I was in a minor fender bender pulling out of the driveway because I couldn't see. Um I know the town needs parking places, but uh I'd be
very grateful if you could just uh cordon off that one so that we could see up the street and not get in accidents. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. I appreciate it. And I think we haven't heard from Janet McGawan yet.
Hi. Um, my name is Janet McGawan. Um, I live at 706 Southeast Street. I use she and her pronouns and I want to thank the TSO for taking comment and listening. Um, I wanted to talk about the impact of Alex non-renewal or
non-recommendation to be renewed. Um, I know Alex. I think we're lucky to have someone with so much expertise on wildlife wetlands. He's really hardworking. He goes out to sites. He collects information. Um he understands wetlands law and the impacts of
development on wetlands and also like how to put the two together in a way that is you know following the law and getting um the ne you know the development to go. Um several times when I was serving on the planning board, he would call me and ask questions about the history of a project or you know the
facts on a project. And so I just appreciate people who are curious and sort of go the extra mile to collect information. Um what is the impact? So I think it's going to create or there is already a lack of public trust in the process of appointments to committees.
Um it can it will confirm what many people um think that and reasons why they don't want to be on boards. I've I spent a lot of time trying to get people to be to apply for boards. they people have said well I had a friend who was an expert in this and was never called or
he wasn't picked um or she um it looks it you know it's like a failure of the process that if somebody who has worked so hard has the qualifications and the experience I mean the renewal should not be automatic but it should be close to it and in this case it hasn't happened
it makes it appear the town manager wants to control the process and the results the activities of the conservation commission um you know He wants to keep curious, knowledgeable, possibly dissenting voices out of the process. It's known that the town
manager wants the Atkin projects to go. Uh, and this will create a reasonable perception that he is trying to manipulate this process and on the process of an independent board that's created by state law. I really do think the TSO and the town council need to
find out why the count town manager has not recommended him for renewal because you're the ones who ultimately make the decisions. You will either rubber stamp it or agree with it or disagree with it, but you need to know the facts and the reasons for this deviation from a
customer or a policy. And you know in in you know we know the town manager is working under the town council and I don't think it's not going to be good for the process. It's not going to be good for our democracy and our government if we don't know why he
made these decisions. Um so I just really wish um the town council and TSA inquire further and find the reasons and also you know follow your policy or your custom of reappoint and um so others will feel comfortable
applying for boards or being on boards. Thank you for listening. >> Thank you very much for your comment. I think that that is um the request. Let's see if there's any. >> There's Sher and Judge >> cuz uh
>> we have one hand up. >> Uh bring Sharon Judge in because we haven't >> Can you hear >> Can you hear me? >> Yes, we can. >> Um good morning and thank you uh for
your service and for allowing public comment. My name is Sharon Judge. I'm at 151 Amity Street. Um number five, that's the Marsh condominiums. Um at issue is our parking. I I get nervous whenever I
pull out of our driveway. Um I we wanted to ask for two to delete two spaces because that would make it a lot easier to see but we are out of respect for the town for whoever works uptown and works
at the government center we decided well maybe we could get by with one. Um, I want to speak to the issue of why you're probably thinking, why haven't other houses complained on their side of the street? Well, I want to explain that
briefly. We, um, next to us is a, um, rental of some lovely young women who are students. Um, they have a larger driveway, so they have less of an issue, and I'm not sure if renters would complain to the town. Um, I don't know if they even think about having that
ability. Um the people next door um a large white house. I'm not going to use their names. Um they have for some reason a larger space from their driveway to the parking spaces than we do. Then the next house, the last house
on the block, um we originally owned there. Um they park they get into and out of their driveway from Lincoln. So it that is not a concern for them. So, it's a special thing on our block that
has us has people parking so close to our driveway um that it is a problem. Um I guess that's all I wanted to say. Thank you again for your consideration >> and thank you for being here and present
making your presentation. So, with that said, I think that we are completed with public comment now. Um and uh so we can proceed on to the agenda and uh as I have indicated
previously, we're going to shuffle the agenda a little bit. Um in the U posted agenda, town manager appointments are list um is the next listed item. But uh because the town manager is not able to
be with us at the beginning of the meeting, but indicated that he expects to join the meeting later, we're going to postpone that um item until he is present. So
we have no u minutes uh and we're going to proceed to discussion of 151 AMD street parking request which we had several public comments about already. Um,
so I'm going to ask uh one of our committee members, Jennifer Tab, who's also the one who sponsored um to the uh request to that was referred and uh see if she has any introductory comments and
if there's anybody who's in the audience that she would want to request to the committee uh to be brought into the meeting. um if there's agreement of the committee, we would consider that. So start with
Jennifer. >> Um thank you Andy and uh thank you to Guilford and Chief Ting for for being at the meeting. Um most of uh you know when I presented the motion to the council it was um in response to the homeowners
association at 151 Amnity Street which as some of the residents have discussed has a very narrow driveway and with cars you know parking very close to that driveway and I've come in and out of am
that 151 Amnity and you really have to get beyond the parked car. So, you have to nose out into oncoming traffic in order to see if cars are coming. So, it's a very precarious situation. And the cars go very quickly in both
directions, but especially when they're coming heading west from downtown and it's downhill, the cars go very quickly. And there um when the homeowners association requested from the police department the accident record, it does
appear that there is a very high accident rate on Amnity Street overall and especially that block between Lincoln and Pleasant Street. And since it was only one parking space, it seemed that the benefits this the the traffic
and safety benefits of losing one parking space um could be absorbed, you know, in whatever inconvenience it it might cause um for the cars that park there. I might also add, it's a little extraneous, but I'm a patient at Amnity
Street Dental, so you know, I have nothing but respect for the practice, but they have a large, very large parking lot behind their building. And apparently, they don't allow or discourage employees from parking there.
So, I think a a a number of the cars that regularly park on Amity between Lincoln and Pleasant Street are from that dental practice. Um, if a space is lost, I mean, I
I would not I volunteer to speak with the office about allowing their employees to park there because I know when I when I go, it's the lot is usually empty. So, it seemed like a small request for um a pretty, you know, significant benefit. And if we could
bring in the um representative from the homeowners association that initially brought this concern to the council is Steve Judge. And I see him in the audience. So perhaps we want to bring him in or recognize him to make a comment.
>> Is there agreement from the rest of the committee that we can bring Mr. judge in I don't think that uh why don't we go ahead and do that since I see no objection being raised
>> morning Mr. Judge >> thank you chairman Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that very much. >> Would you like me to make uh my public comment now or do you want me to wait till you had a chance to discuss uh that does it matter more? >> Um I don't know if there are going to be
questions that you might want to respond to. The other thing that you did send by way of uh um councelor Tab is uh four photographs and um I assume that they and I had uh
asked if they were taken from the position of a driver leaving the space. I didn't know if we wanted to show those quickly um in order to uh give a sense of it or if
we just want to go ahead and have discussion and hear from the chief and uh the superintendent of public works. Uh >> Steve, >> Chief Ding, uh do you have any intro any
introductory comments about this request? >> Uh yeah, absolutely. So, you know, certainly the safety is paramount for all of our motorists. And uh I personally have uh taken a look at the driveway out of 151 and um I can't
really comment on on every driver is a little bit different. Uh, so I'm certainly not going to discount others experiences with pulling out of there. Um, I will say that in totality from North Prospect Street to Lincoln Avenue,
there's three other driveways. Uh, and I believe that all four of the driveways are in similar situations when you pull out. Uh, they're almost identical um, in terms of getting out with the exception of um, the uh, the old Drake building.
that one. Uh I think people usually pull in and back out of that. That's kind of a storage area. So that does make it a little bit more precarious there. Um so with that being said, uh just keep in mind that if if this does pass it, if
this does pass, uh my guess is that all of the other neighbors will probably request something similar uh in terms of removing additional parking spaces. Uh but again, I do believe that safety is paramount and I don't disagree with uh the assessment from those pulling out of
151. Do >> you have any introductory uh comments? Uh Guilford? >> Um I I think Chief Ting hit an important part. If you if you do decide to do this, we will get other requests, but I
think it's a valid request to go ahead and get rid of the one space. Okay. Um, Jennifer would um I have the uh photographs available. Uh do you want to have uh them quickly shown?
>> Uh sure. And I would ask um you know if Mr. Judge provided the photos. >> Yeah, I I did. I provided Whoops. >> Okay. Um, >> do you want me to I don't think I can
share my screen. So, >> think that I have it. >> There you go. So, this is this is the um typical situation that we have coming out of our driveway that um as you can see, this is from the car. I think it's
my wife's car. Um, and she's sitting in it and she's she's already the the rear the side view mirror is already at the u the curb cut and trying to get out into Amity Street is just really difficult. If you go to the other other pictures,
you can see and the other issue here is a lot of times cars won't park right up against the curb. And so you'll have not only is the car parked there, but the car is parked a foot and a half, 2 ft away from the curb, which extends it into the drive into the street even more
and makes it even more difficult for us to to especially make a a right-hand turn. So, um, I think that's a pretty representative photograph that you just showed, Chairman Steinberg. >> Yeah. Here's another one of your photographs.
>> Yeah, that's at that point you're a little farther out into the into the parking area of the street on the the drive the end of the driveway. >> Okay. think I have
one or two more if I recall correctly. Um I didn't do one more I think. Now this was one we had previously. >> Yeah. Um why don't we stop and um allow
for some discussion and questions. Does anybody have any questions of uh Mr. Judge at this point? So is there any uh uh council Lord? >> Yes. Thank you. So 151 is a a
condominium h um area I believe. How many residents andor units are in that area if I'm understanding? Thank >> if if I may speak to that Mr. Chairman. >> Yes, please do.
>> Yeah, there are five units. Uh typically there are nine residents of those of this uh condominium. Um currently there's a vacancy in one unit. So, we currently have seven people
living here, but I anticipate it'll be filled soon. So, we expect nine people. There has been nine people almost all the time. >> Thank you. >> And how many parking places are within the property that have to come out through this driveway?
>> So, we have two per unit. So, there are 10 parking spaces um allocated to the units and then there's three park three guest parking spaces as well. So, a total of 13 parking spaces, 10 for residents and three for guests.
>> And the other um houses down the street that were referenced that might make similar requests, are they single family homes or are they uh multiple units such as yours? >> No. Um the one to our east is a single
family home. The one to our the first house to our west houses um six college students. They have a five or six cars there. The one farther down is a single family home with one car.
>> Thank you. That's helpful. So that information I open it up to the committee if questions of either Mr. judge, the Chief or Superintendent of Public Works, please uh raise your hand
and I'll recognize you to ask questions. Uh, Council Ryan. So, I think my question is uh really more for the committee uh and for our own deliberations. Um, as both Chief Ting and I think Superintendent Warang
suggested, um, there'll be other requests or certainly would be reasonable for other requests, uh, on the same grounds. And so, um, where do we draw the line and on what uh, criteria do we do that? There's no
question that this is a a safety issue. The chief admits that and it's visible from the photographs. Um, but it's a safety issue for a whole host of of properties on that street. It's also a safety issue for everybody on the other side of the street. Um, who
also have to make the similar kind of entry uh with parking on both sides. Uh, a number of years ago, um, I had personal experience with this. Um, actually my wife did, so it was secondhand, but she got t-boned um, as
she was coming up. uh the car was coming out of one of the properties on the other side of the street um and the young student uh was her vision was impaired by the parked the parked vehicles. So you know and some of us have lived in
places like Cambridge and other parts of this of the world where um you have parking on both sides of the street and it's just you just have to be very careful. Um so I'm very sympathetic and I I think we'll probably go ahead and approve this. Um, I understand the
concern. Um, but, uh, I ask my committee members, what do we do when the next neighbor comes or the dental practice across the street, uh, points out that all their customers have to deal with this challenge as well. So I think it's more the precedent we're setting and
trying to understand um you know what what sort of the rationale or criteria is um because it would seem the most safe thing to do would be to remove parking from the whole stretch on both sides. We should have the consequence that has
already been acknowledged that uh there number of people who we have a shortage of parking and the uh parking system is built around uh
parking on these kinds of uh streets near to downtown in order to uh uh serve the people who work in the downtown area or um are using facilities
in the downtown area. Uh Jennifer. >> Um thank you. Yeah. But where I think does make us different than a city, a bigger city like Cambridge is, you know, we've discussed it before that we don't
have the enforcement capacity to enforce when a car is parked, you know, into the street beyond the space. And in one of the pictures, the big SUV was not only parked far like a foot and a half from
the curb and over where the lines were drawn for the space into the street, but it was also over the line that's closest to the driveway. So, you know, again, we've if we don't have the enforcement capacity, I think that's another reason
why we might, you know, want to take the step of eliminating a parking space and it and then, you know, it may be that other there's not on that side of the street there's really just two other residences. There's the single family
house. That's one house in from Lincoln on Amnity. And then there's the house um that I think has six students living there, but it sounded like the driveway was wider. So they I don't know, the chief
would probably know this if that makes it easier to inch out if you have a wider space. Um the the streets only Well, I guess you know it doesn't matter how often you're pulling in and out. I mean that the residents that house that is rented to students is always, you
know, rented. They may go in and out less frequently in their car than other residents cuz you can walk to the university from there. Um and in terms of the other side of the street, I think it's a problem. I don't know if we if it's possible to have the spaces the
parking spaces start further from the curb, but I when I pull out from Amity Street Dental, I I it is pretty terrifying. And there's been a couple of at least one bad accident, I think, coming out of that driveway. So, you
know, maybe we want to start with eliminating this spot and then look at I don't know if that's feasible to leave more space on either side of the curb cut before the cars can park. If I can just Oh, go ahead, councelor. >> Go ahead, Steve.
>> I if I could just comment. I I you know, I I think that's a legitimate concern that this might open the door to other requests. But if that's if it does, then I think we in the town have a bigger problem than just our driveway. We probably have to look at what the
spacing is. Right now, it's I went out and checked it this morning. The white line which issues the demarcation for where you can park is 4 feet from the curb cut. A little bit less than four feet from the curb cut. That that just seems awfully close. And I don't know what the
regulations are in terms of the town is how much you space you have between the driveway. But if you're looking at a more um comprehensive approach, you might want to look at what that distance is between the curb cut for the driveway and where the parking begins. But my
hope is that you'd be able to deal with our issue now and so we wouldn't have to wait for a more comprehensive approach to be for the whole town to be um uh to take that up. I think that could take some time and it really is it really is a safety issue. If you look at the
there's been an accident at um see at 155 at 151 at 140. Um there's been and of course there's been a lot of lot more accidents at Lincoln. This is not going to affect that specifically,
but we've had a history of accidents including one person in this in the condo complex and and councelor Ryan, you've seen how difficult that you on that street entering that street can be. So I would really hope we could deal with this one for us and then we'd
be glad to participate in a a town discussion about what makes more sense uh townwide. Yeah, sir. Yeah, I think uh when I look at the way this is headed, it's uh we're going to lose a lot of parking downtown
and uh it is a downtown and u people who choose to live close to downtown such as myself and the folks who live at the at 151 and a whole bunch of other people um have I think a real there's a real reason why we do that. Um, but it also
comes with the the challenge of parking and it comes with the challenge of of navigating that in a dense urban area. Uh, granted it's not Cambridge, but it is our downtown and um, we want people to come and use it. We want to have as
much parking as possible. We've got the library up the street. You've got the Drake. Um, so these are precious parking spaces. Um, so I think we're we're kind of caught there. There's clearly a safety issue, but the safety issue is
not going to go away. Um, if we grant this request, which again I think is a perfectly reasonable request, um, the safety problem will remain for all the other folks who live on that street. Uh, the only difference is they probably either rentals for instance or if
they're a dental practice, they may just not come to us and say we want to change. So, um I think we also have to weigh um the fact that this is the center of the town. Um and parking is
precious and one of the challenges of living you have many advantages and I think I testify to them myself of living close to the center of the town, but one of the disadvantages is that it's denser and you have to be cautious getting in
and out of uh your parking. Um, so that's that's my main concern >> maybe getting a little off subject, but I would put in a plug for the parking lot, the town owned lot. It's called the Norse Prospect lot, which is between St.
Bridg's Church and the CVS parking lot um that the town owns. It's it's very underutilized. So that's um there's you know I think there's like 70 close to 75 spaces that are available there to park which is very close. And I would you
know we want people to live within walking distance to town and I you know hate for um you know taking a bit of taking your life in the h in your hands to have to be the price to pay for that. But I know that councelor Ryan agrees
that in this um or seems to agree that in this case we could grant the request to lose one parking space. Um and I think there are other options to park close by um to Amnity Street and
Prospect between Prospect and Pleasant Street. >> Yes. So Lord, >> thank you. I'm leaning towards voting for this um one because it's multiple units. There's five units. It's one spot
and I know every spot is precious, but um I just think if we've had a lot of people saying we really feel unsafe, there could be accidents, people fly down that hill. Um I know last night, this is years away, we talked about
robust bike paths and more of that. So, we could be also heading towards more walking and biking, especially with, you know, inflation and gas prices, but that's not going to help today or in the next few years. But just, yeah, I think
as the new library opens, um, Ammerst continues to build up, we will have to get creative about what parking structures that we might need and how that looks. But, I just wanted to say that I'm leaning towards voting yes. Other requests might come in. And if you're a
single family home, may, you know, everybody deserves to be heard and and given consideration, but um the fact that there's five units, that really is swaying me to say yes today. Thank you. >> Yes. I have a question for uh
Superintendent Public Works or the police chief. Are there any standards that exist in um safety for the distance between the edge of a driveway and when
parking can be uh should begin? Uh there there are standards, but then there's also ways to adjust the standards for each condition. Like the people who are requesting this change, they're on the outside curve of
the road. So you would actually have smaller distances on that side because you can see better into the roadway. um the people on the inside of the curve, which is the south side, you'd have larger standards because it's harder to see around the corners because of the
curve of the road blocks more traffic. So there they're there standards, but there's also judgment that goes in with making those standards and setting you which ones you use. Speed of the road is also uh is also figured in there. But um
the fact that no one wants to obey the speed rules, that's not a factor in that decision. Would you uh recommend in any way adjusting parking places so that u there's a a
larger uh distance that is uh recognized as in this kind of situation >> for this driveway. Moving it back, getting rid of that one space would be
would be good. I mean, we would actually probably look at it when we paint it again next year and we might be able to readjust the spaces and regain the space as we repaint or we may give more people different uh abilities to have more
driveway exit space as well. So, getting rid of one space may help more than just this one property owner. >> Okay. any any final comments uh from the chief or
>> uh No, I I support it. I mean, I I definitely think that safety is an issue. Um however, like I said, I I think it's been widely discussed here that that's uh that's going to set a precedence. We're not only within uh other neighbors on um Amity Street. I
think that uh probably other areas throughout town may start looking at that and that's it's going to it you're going to have a lot of requests. Um and we've seen that in other areas. Um certainly when um for
example for speed enforcement will if there's a neighborhood that puts in speed bumps um you know then the requests start coming in that everybody wants speed bumps. So that's just something to consider is all I'm saying. Yeah. Um hopefully we'll have a
transportation parking commission that can address those kinds of issues and spend a little bit more time with uh regular participation from police department and public works and planning
to u think through with the counselors who are on would be on the commission how to how to do this. Um, I think we need a uh motion and uh I think
it would be uh something like a motion to recommend to the town council that um it eliminate one parking place um immediately to the
east of the driveway for 151 Amity Street and request that the uh Department of Public Works um investigate in uh adjusting parking
places in an appropriate manner um to address the safety issues that have been um raised by the residents. Jennifer, >> now you as the chair can't make the
motion, so I should I make the motion that you just made or >> Andy can make the motion. >> Oh, okay. Then I second. >> Okay. Um and you recorded the mo uh you have the motion written down. Athena,
>> I don't think I captured every word, but I'll get it. Yeah, it was to recommend uh removing one parking place to the um
east of uh the driveway from 151 and request uh Amity Street and request that the Department of Public Works um adjust parking place uh space assignments in an
appropriate manner. Uh, >> got it. Thank you. >> Is that agreeable uh wording for the seconder? >> Yes. Thank you. >> Okay. Um, so with that motion on the
floor, is there any further comments, discussion? I will then call for a vote. Um, councelor Ryan >> I. Councelor Lord >> I Jennifer >> yes
>> and I'll vote yes so it's four to zero um Chief uh Superintendent Boring thank you very much for um being here and participating in this um we will um be
talking about the transportation parking commission proposals and um getting a report um from Paul about waist taller. I will tell you that um of the waist
taller um you know just a second I'll be back back to you in a second Mr. Judge uh because we really appreciate your uh bringing this to our attention your participation. Um the uh why don't I go ahead miss um and
he's Mr. Judge, did you have anything you wanted to say in conclusion? >> I just wanted to thank you for your consideration and uh say that we appreciate all the work that you as volunteers do for the town and for Captain Ting and U Superintendent Morning. We appreciate it very much.
Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you. Um the uh on the waist hauler u the town manager has found a consultant who will
assist from the pioneer valley planning commission and uh has made the arrangements to um do that and uh has noted that u there's a convenience factor
uh because Susan White who we know from uh the Commonwealth Department of Environmental Protection her office is is colllocated with the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission so
that she will be available to assist. Um but um you can if there are further questions the town manager about that but um there we have made progress and there is a uh
consultant that has now been identified. Um, so I just wanted to share that with the committee so that you know when uh since that's an agenda item um the transportation and parking
commission um I'm we met um I met with go um at their last meeting earlier this week and uh >> Andy can we say thank you to Chief Tang and Superintendent Moring
Yeah. Well, certainly u no I don't think that you really you're welcome to stay but you don't need to stay in any event for this. >> Thanks for joining your time. We welcome
we we will welcome if there is a uh successful um creation of the transportation parking commission having a body that has u either you or a designate that you make
for the commission. And uh the kind of uh discussion that we just had is something that would actually be happening in that body in the future and uh I think that that's uh from our view
very helpful and uh we uh I don't know if you unless you have some comment about the subject in general um I think that there's no need for you to remain. >> I appreciate your time. I appreciate everyone's time. Thank you very much and thank you Athena. Appreciate it.
>> Thank you everyone. >> Um I don't know. Uh do you have anything? Would you like to stay in the meeting? Uh it's up to you. Uh >> I'll I'll go ahead and leave. I'll let
you talk it out and I have been reading your minutes. It's I think it's going in the right direction. So, we had a um meeting with G and uh there's been um I actually have to turn
back to Athena as far as the um committee charge. Is the committee charge now done? Did they uh take a final vote on it? I don't believe voted either the charge or the public way policy,
>> but I don't think there's anything left to discuss in the committee charge because I think that we are um all in agreement. >> I believe so. Um and uh I reported back that uh we
seem just that we seem to be in agreement on the designation um of uh the and I think the only thing that they were just asking about was whether there
was any further specificity we wanted to give about public membership. the pub three public positions but I think that um we've gone over that language enough that um I did not have
any change to propose. So I think that we're pretty well concluded on that. Um is there anything that you can think of Athena? >> No, not for the charge. Yeah, I think that the the bigger item
is the uh public ways policy and there are things that need to be addressed that we talked about at our last meeting and I think that um uh when I've thought about this u some of the
language that we talked about last week, we I need to go over the recording of the meeting and make sure that we have the um language that we had talked about at the uh prior meeting incorporated. I
know that councelor Ryan has been making some review of that. Uh do you have any comments? uh can expect >> uh well I guess Andy the thought simply is that what go saw and uh commented on
and is now coming back to us uh doesn't include um some of the changes that we voted on. So there's language that we agreed that had to be inserted from the attorney. I think Bob Hegner had a passage that he
wanted deleted which we deleted or actually his language I'm sorry his language he inserted that we inserted. So I think it's good that it's coming back to us before it goes to them for for their final go review. And I think uh we just need to uh make sure that
what they get um includes everything that we uh have uh put into the into the policy document. Um there's a larger question which I know you're going to get to I guess about um utility structures and poll hearings. Um but I
think the most important thing or one of the important things is that that what we do finally send them should um be the uh the document we want them to review. So what I was uh I think that the the biggest issue
that we talked about last time was the um question regarding poll hearings as we have commonly referred to them and u whether poll hearings um
should be uh kept within from the council and um I wanted to at least revisit that issue because if we can make a decision on that as far as what we recommend and
it's a decision not to include poll hearings, I think that we could significantly um clear up some of the other uh problems that exist within the
policy uh wi within the policy because um at that point there would be no um hearings that we would necessarily have to require
that um be done by the uh transportation and parking commission a referral such as we just made. It was very important to have uh participation from interested parties in
that discussion but we didn't have to call it a public hearing in order to do that. We could use other um make a reference and saying that it is expected that the uh
commission will meet with interested parties or um conduct listening sessions as a part of its process. But if we drop the word hearings out of the requirement which is in the policy now
um that would simplify um process for the commission because it wouldn't have to go through um the formality that is required once you
declare something as a hearing and use that exact word. um and uh uh but we would still end up achieving essentially the same result. Um so we if
we made that change and um don't have poll hearings then a lot of the um uh we could simplify the document significantly. So uh I thought it would be worth having a
discussion about that topic and how to proceed. Um, so I don't know if there are any other comments from other members of now. Professor Ryan, >> just one other uh thought to that um
Andy in addition to simplifying the document um and making it I think easier for TPC to function uh since they wouldn't have the hearings uh um that would be required. Um there's also the
issue of duplication of uh labor. Um the uh in a poll hearing if it goes to TPC um the utility would have to be there and they would go through the process and then it would come back to the council and they'd have to be there as
well. So I think um for the sake of just you know not creating extra burdens on uh petitioners or applicants along with uh taking this I think off TPC's plate uh and putting it where ultimately it
has to rest rest anyway which is with the council. Um my strong recommendation would be simply to take it out um and uh then bring back to our committee the document with revised with that with
that removed and with all the other changes in it that we've already voted on um for for our review. Um and then it would go back to go and they could then finally make their take their action. I think that was kind of what my
thinking about it was. Uh the um another point that I think was raised at the last meeting it may have been um by Athena is that u we don't want to delay the process
because u at times there is urgency and there's citizen requests for changes to their electrical service and um having a long process that requires
u bouncing back and forth between the parking transportation parking commission and the council with the council having to make the final decision would delay for the homeowner who's
seeking the change to the electrical service. the uh change the installation of whatever is needed to serve their purposes. U so there's that act element to it too. The last thing that I'd like to point
out is uh and I uh we really spend very little time at the council meeting in the hearings. We've very rarely had uh I think maybe on only one or two occasions that we've had somebody come in who's a
property owner uh near to the change who thought that it was important to come into the meeting. uh their presentation was fairly brief and uh it got all of the facts out to the body that has a to
make the decision which is the council. So, um, you know, they they haven't been real long hearings, uh, and, uh, I'm not sure we're burdening the council significantly, uh, since they have to become familiar
enough with the issue to feel comfortable voting on it. Uh, council Ryan, you had your hands up in the ticket. Did you have something you would wanted to add? Yeah, I think if if the committee is agreeable, and that's I think what what I'm asking my colleagues to think about,
if they're agreeable to the idea of um [Music] moving pole hearings back to the council's responsibility and off of TPC's plate. Um what we'd be asking uh would be that the chair then revise the
existing document uh with that removed. And also I would suggest that we also ask the chair to directly speak to the attorney. So rather than waiting to get to go um uh we the chair could bring
this revised document to the attorney and make sure that that all the eyes are dotted and tees are crossed. Um and I think there may be one or two other questions that we had last time as a committee that never got answered um that also could be addressed. So I think
my hope is that um we would um send this back uh ask the chair to proceed with revising the document and also ask him to reach out directly to the attorney and and get her input um and then bring that all back to us where we would
review the document one last time hopefully and then send it to go. I thought about that too and I could um revise the document by going over the recording of the last meeting we had two
uh two weeks ago to make sure that we have all of the changes that um we agreed to recorded in the document and that's a matter of comparison but if there was clarity about um the
poll hearing issue, which would require a vote of this committee to change its recommendation on um having the poll hearings referred um done by TPC and leave them leave the
poll hearings with the council. um it would be easy then to make u to to do a whole revision of the document to eliminate all of the sections that refer to hearings. Um the other thing that
came up of course was the uh question of the licensing commission. Um and uh I think that that is in itself a problem that needs to be straightened out. Um
because we don't want to ask the board of license commissioners to report um to the council on matters that are unrelated to referrals from that are um
directly a part of the U council policy on public ways. And the only thing that's in the public ways policy that um actually refers uh to the board of license commissioners is u use of public
ways for um food trucks and carts that um and of course they do a lot of things and we don't want to burden their process. uh we want to have it limited to things that we have referred to them
um and we want to get that um addressed and I don't believe and we will have to check with the license commission about this that they have any hearings that are related um to that
particular issue that's within the public waste policy and if That's correct. Then um it should not be in this particular document. There's no need to have it there.
So um I think that would that's sort of the context of how we could move this along. I'm not going to make a motion on this and I'm leave it to somebody else. But if somebody makes a motion to u change
that one particular issue, I'll certainly look for a second or council Ryan. >> Well, I'm prepared to make a motion. Um, and we'll see what my colleagues think,
but I would move that we uh remove uh the TPC from the authority of the Transportation and Parking Commission, which is currently where it resides in the document. I would move that we remove that and put it back into the
authority solely of the town council and that we uh instruct the chair to uh revise the document um and also include all other changes that we've already voted on. Um, and uh, I would add also
to consult the the town attorney and then bring this back to the committee at our next meeting um, and for our review and vote. And don't ask me to repeat that, Athena. I'm sorry.
>> So, it's probably got more in it than it needs, but that that Thank you for the second. That's my motion. Athena, do you u have sufficient motion or do you need to get that clarified? >> It's sufficient.
>> Thank you. So the motion uh it's essentially that we are recommend that we're changing our recommendation um and would um not have the hearings on
utility issues referred to the transportation and parking commission and uh any further discussion on the topic? hearing. Uh, >> Andy, can I can I ask for a clarification?
Is the committee going is this committee going to look at th those documents again before they go to go or are you making changes and sending them right on? Well, that is my next question is going to be u >> I I don't know if it would be better to
get the vote on the motion, but >> my suggestion is that we uh in order because we're we're running out of time essentially >> and uh we need to have two readings at the council level and we need to get
this back to go. So, I was wondering if we could meet next week for a brief meeting. It wouldn't just be on a um the single issue um of this particular document.
And uh that way we could get it back to go more quickly. And what I would do is take responsibility. I may look for help from somebody else in the committee, but I
would take responsibility for uh doing the revisions to the policy as described. Um, council Ryan. >> Yeah, as part of the motion actually that it does come back to us. I think it
does have to come back to us. We have to see um the final product before it goes to go. be nice if we could send it directly to go, but um they're going to be substantial changes or they're going to be changes and I think uh all of us need to see them and discuss them and see if we have any questions. Hopefully
we won't have many, but who knows? So, um I'd be open to an extra meeting if if if the rest of of our members are open to that. But whether we have an extra meeting or not, I do think that it has to come back to us first before it goes to go.
Uh, Jennifer. >> Um, so the the meeting if I could make an ex a meeting next Thursday, not the full two hours, but it would just be to address this item. I could do that.
>> I think if Athena, would that be a problem to post to have an extra meeting for one hour from 10 to 11? >> Nope. That works. Council Lord, is that a problem for you? >> No.
>> Shall we vote on the motion that's on the floor? I think there's agreement. Um, so I'm going to call for a vote and I'll start with councelor Ryan. >> I vote I. >> Council Lord
>> I. >> Jennifer. >> Yes. >> And I'm a yes. So, it's four to zero with one member absent. And, um, with that said, um, I'm going to go to another.
>> So, Andy, if I may interrupt, just for a point of of clarification, um, and for the sake of the public and for my sake, um, we are adding or we're going to add an extra meeting on October 23rd, Thursday, at 10:00 a.m. from 10 to 11.
>> Correct. >> Do I have that right? Okay, thank you. >> Yeah, I uh as with Jennifer have reasons that I need to limit the time on the meeting. Um
but I will put the extra meeting in. Um so I think that we know now have talked about that topic. Um we have not yet heard from the town manager.
>> Um I I am in touch with him and he should be on in the next five minutes or so. They were a little delayed this morning. >> Okay. I know that he had a personal matter that and he was going to join us
as quickly as he could. >> And uh I think that what I would um then like to do for a couple minutes is we have two other items related to transportation parking commission. One
is the council rules of procedure changes that would be necessary and the other is um the committee charge for um the future because there would whether we would want to um make
recommendations and changes on the committee charge. I think we probably don't have time to talk about both, but um I am going to put on the screen um if
I can find it. Um the uh see if I've got if this is the one that I'm looking for. Yeah. So, um under the rules, um this is um agenda.
See if I get it right. The recommendations having to do with changes to the council rules and procedure. It's item seven. And um so on your screen you should see
um 8.2 of the current rules and um wherever referral is listed it is shown in yellow and um the I think that we we would need to do is recommend
a change in 8.2 too that has um makes it clear that if there is a it could be done it's one of two thing two ways of going about it. One is to say that anything that is referred to the um
transportation parking commission comes back to the council should not be referred to a committee. And the other possibility is to say that um in a more general sense any referral
um to another body that is um then returned to the council and is to a body that has counselor members as a part of the body that it does not um get referred to a committee.
Um and that makes it a little bit broader. Um but it seems that um we would need to do some revision to 8.2 to u in order to
address that issue and not have a situation where u something is thoroughly reviewed by TPC and then gets to the council and it has to be referred back to TSO.
So um that that was what we had talked about previously. That's what the issue is. And so I'm going to stop sharing now, get back to the committee and see if there's anybody uh has any comments on that
through disagreement that uh councelor Ryan >> just a process question which I should know the answer to but um these kinds of um requests to change the rules of procedure that can come from an individual counselor. Correct. It doesn't just have it doesn't have to
come from a committee. So, are you envisioning the committee bringing this request, which is perfectly fine? Are you envisioning that you would bring it individually? Uh, and I assume it goes to go anyway. So, um, I guess your thought is that we as a committee would
make this request and send it to go assuming we agree to it. Is that is that your way we would do it? Yes, I would feel more comfortable if there was an agreement in the >> committee amongst the committee that the
thinks that this is the appropriate action to take. Um but um it does need to go to go and I think that the only question is um whether it is uh expected
that we actually provide the language that we would like go to consider or just the general concept and leave it to go to do the drafting and I don't know if Athena has advice on that um
otherwise I would need to talk with the chair of go about how she would like to proceed with it. So >> my instinct is always Andy to just give them give them language and then they can play with it as opposed to give him
a general concept and then let him. So but that I think it can go either way. My other question has to do with the committee charge and how you want to handle that um going forward. Is this something that that you will I mean this is really appreciated. You put it up on the screen. You showed us what you have in mind. Um and we certainly will talk
about it I assume at their next meeting. Well, not the next meeting but the next next meeting. Um how do you want to handle the committee charge? A similar fashion. Um uh sort of present us with a a document with suggested changes. Um is that how you want to proceed with that
as well or is that more u complicated? >> I think that's probably going to be more complicated because I think that once we open up the committee charge, we should look more um more carefully at whether there are other changes we want to make
to the committee charge. So I would um urge >> more general discussion >> to generally look at the committee charge itself >> and to make their own assessments of what is needed. Uh I think we could ask one person to
uh draft a proposed language change for uh that particular council rule of procedure along the lines that have been described. If it's the agreement of the committee to do so and u just proceed
and we could get one volunteer to take that on. Um is uh Paul, good morning. Um and welcome to the committee. Uh
I'll fill you in later about 151 Amity Street. I reported on the waste hauler uh discussion. um that that you have uh found somebody from the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission who would be
drafting um the RFP and uh that there were issues that would follow that might follow. U I just shared that brief piece of information with them and we had some
public comment regarding the appointment which we'll get to in just a moment. So that's uh >> it looked like the town manager was having some connectivity issues. He was frozen. Oh, here he is.
Andy, could we just get closure before we we bring we can turn to Paul um on the two items that we were discussing. At least in my mind, I'm still a little confused. Um, can we do that first and then we can uh >> Yeah, I think that the uh
um what I'd ask for is whether there's agreement from the committee to um move forward with drafting a ch a proposed change that we would submit to go
um regarding the referral once a a matter is referred from TP. PC to the council that it should not be referred back to TSO. >> And I think Andy, at least speaking for myself, the other committee members can
speak up, but I'd be happy to have you um draft language like that um for us to to discuss and probably vote on um at the next appropriate meeting, at least for that issue. Um if you're willing to do that, seems like you've already made
a pretty good step in that direction. Um, as Todd, >> uh, I agree with George. I just wanted to weigh in that I I would support that process. >> Okay. U, we don't really need to vote because
we're not adopting anything. We see the um, >> what we're we're proposing. Um, nothing to I call on you for help with uh what might be the appropriate wording for the
motion for the uh revision to 8.2. >> We can work on that outside the meeting. >> Yeah. So I I Athena and I could uh come up with something that we're both comfortable with and then get it back to
the committee for the next full regular meeting. Um we uh we are going to have that brief um no more than one hour meeting a week from today as an added
meeting to talk about um changes to the uh town council policy on the public way to address the issues as we had discussed and u so that
Paul has full context We voted to change the recommendation so that utility hearings or poll hearings as they're commonly called would uh remain with the council and would not be
referred to TPC. So, uh that's what the we were going to uh do a reddraft of the policy and then u see if we can uh get clearance that
the revised policy um would be uh whe whether um attorney Goldberg has any further comments on it after we do the revisions. So that was what our thought was and why we wanted to have the special meeting next week is
to keep this moving so that we could get TPC um through two readings before the end of the council term. So, saying that um and I don't know if you've had connectivity problems, but
what I was saying is is that I did report about the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission being available to do the drafting and uh uh in the fact that um Susan Wade is
located in the office with Pioner Valley Planning Commission is an added bonus that would come with it and but it gives us a path forward and um you know I speaking for myself I really appreciate the fact that you have found somebody
and have now plan to get that RFP moving as has been voted by the council. Um so um is there anything else on waist hall or any other issue? Otherwise I would like to turn it to u the committee
appointment. Um and so I'll wait for just one moment to see if any hands go up and if not um we will uh go to the committee appointment
issue. Seeing none Paul Okay. Yes. Can you hear me? Okay. I'm so sure we have >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, yeah. So, it's it's good news with Pioneer Valley Planning Commission. Appreciate them um coming forward and and offering this. A lot of pluses to
that. So, the appointment before you today is for conservation commission and the person is Christina Smith at 150 West Pomeroy Lane. Uh, Miss Smith is extremely wellqualified to serve on the commission. She's um has she works for the state and uh Department of
Agricultural Resources where she supports farmers in complying with the wetlands protection act and helps them preserve their land and address a lot of drainage issues that farmers are dealing with especially in the climate change era. Uh she has been active in um the
conservation commission. She's presented to the Massachusetts Association of Conservation Commissions on drainage. Um her presentation was a a tale of two ditches and she one of the ditches was in Ammeris that she used as a reference. She has taken trainings provided by the
mass Massachusetts Association of Conservation Commissions and has uniquely is super qualified um to serve as on the commission >> and and thank and thank you for accommodating me on the schedule. So, I appreciate that to the council.
>> Yeah. And I I I guess I have to say that um what you did miss because you weren't able to be at the beginning of the meeting was that um we did do public comment and that there was public
comment offered on the subject. Um and uh it was uh number of issues related to the decision to um not reappoint. Mhm.
>> the current member. Uh but to go ahead and make what you thought was most appropriate appointment without um consideration of that issue of the fact that um a current member who
served only one term >> is not being reappointed. I can't I'm not going to try and characterize the public comment. I think that the best thing is to um just say that if you are um it might be advisable
for you to listen to the recording of the meeting for the public comment period in a future when you have time and it's available. >> Um so I'm want to open it up for uh comments, questions from members of the
committee. Jennifer. Yeah. So, um I mean this is not a sort of controversy any of us were looking for, but it's before us. So, I think we have to
>> address it. And what makes me very uncomfortable is there is just so much innuendo um out there. And I don't have any uh you know necessarily any doubt any
reason to doubt that the two um new members that were that we confirmed the appointment of at the last TSO meeting or the person who's being nominated today about their qualifications. But we do know that the member who's not
being appointed is at least as qualified. And the concern is I guess I was thinking about it. I was maybe a little slow on the uptick, but um thinking about it after the last meeting is like the zoning board of the of
appeals and the planning commission conservation commission members cannot join an cannot be part of reviewing an application midstream. So these new members, three, as qualified as they may be, as far as I understand it, will not
be able to participate in the review of the Atkins Corner application. So that so it really does have the appearance. >> Mhm. And it puts us as TSO members and
the council in a really, you know, impossible um situation because it it's not you can't just say, well, the current member is very qualified and the three new members are qualified
because the fact that the new members cannot be part of reviewing this major application, it's a real loss to the town and the committ. that somebody who has been who is very knowledgeable, very, you know, has been
active, you know, participant on the committee, um, totally wellqualified is being taken out and replaced by essentially one to three people that can't participate. So, it's very, >> you know, and then I do think TSO needs
to discuss because I' I've raised this over the years. So it's not just with this situation our process of appointing because it's just um feels way too subjective. It there's got
to be um a more transparent objective way that it can be handled. >> So those are my starting comments. >> Those those are great comments. Um so I don't want to disrupt the process for whatever wherever the process is for the
um the ar the archipelago project. Um my understanding is that the commission has already approved not decided not to uh make any adjustments in regulations. Um that's already been voted. Um I you know beyond that I can check on if there's a
if this um would interfere with that decision those decisions. Um in terms of the but that's not the intent. It's not it's it's clearly not the intent. The in terms of the process, the process is set by the charter. The charter establishes
um the the that the town manager is the appointing authority and the council has the right of approval or not approval. Um and that's pretty well stated. Um it is a subjective because I have to make a judgment. It's it's one person's judgment that makes this the the
decision. It's a council's decision to approve it or not approve it or take no action. Um those are the three options available to the town council. Um this when we first started this process when the council first formed um we
established a process where um I gave a fair amount of detail to the about the process in the in the memo. I think if you look at other cities and towns they just you get a name. Um so I do an extensive memo. The other piece that was included in the charter is to include
the resident oversight board um which is involved in pretty much every interview. There's a member from the resident oversight board assistant on the interviews as well. So those are the sort of checks um on on a town on on the town manager's appointing. Um
so I think that this process has been running really well. I know that this is a controversial one. Um but I think in the past if if you look at the record of the hundreds and hundreds of appointments I've made in the last since the council was formed um the council
has been pretty supportive of it. What's different in this case is um there is like the ali well what about this person or that person and because we know who the who the incumbent uh appointee was and so there is a comparison and then there's people who would support one or
the other and I think that that's where and I think that's where the council has has experienced challenges as well when you when you are the appointing authority for the planning board or zoning board um you have those kinds of um conversations with each other.
>> Ryan, >> so this is not our process. This is the town manager's process. This is not our appointment. This is the town manager's appointment. as he's pointed out and has been the case for all five years that I've served
on the council and often been uh involved in reviewing his appointments and recommending them. He follows a very rigorous process. Um always consulting multiple people in this case three other individuals.
Um this is an extremely unusual circumstance. I can't think of a a previous example where someone who served on a body is not being forwarded for another term and that in itself suggests that there is this is an
extremely unusual circumstance and um I think the town manager has u made every effort to make it clear that it's not about the individual's qualifications. It's not about the individual's expertise.
it's about something else. And um I think at this point given the long history of what the manager has done in making these many many many appointments and the rigorous process that he follows
that he's not asking too much of us to uh trust him when he makes this kind of request or when he makes a decision uh not to renew someone. These positions do not come with guarantee of anything. We're grateful
for the willingness of residents to serve and many many do. Um and but the fact that you are serving um is in and of itself not a guarantor of anything. Um, so I think ultimately for me it
comes down to respecting uh what I've seen the manager do over the years and the process that he follows. Um, in fact, he bends over backwards to be fair. He understands very clearly that he's a manager, not a mayor. That's a
very different kind of position where mayors can make decisions and just say and just say that's, you know, that's it. That's not the way he works. That's not the way he's ever worked. Um, and I think in this particular case, um, he
has done as much as he can do to help us understand why he's done what he's done. And finally, what we have in front of us is, um, an appointment that we need to, uh, make a vote on. And so I would
strongly urge my colleagues to trust his judgment and to trust his process. Um and uh I think I'm prepared to make a motion as soon as the chair is ready to recognize me. >> Yeah. So I have to respectfully disagree
with several items. I have brought this up um in TSO before that it's a contradiction I think what councelor Ryan to me it's a contradiction to say this is the town manager's decision if that's the case and this is what I've
brought up before why is it even coming to TSO and the council what you're saying is it's our job to rubber stamp and that just forgetting this even this particular situation It's if it's the town manager's position and
there's an implication we're out of line by questioning it it then why >> why is he even coming to us and I don't you know I'm trying to respect everybody's privacy but we
you know I don't the community I mean to to say just trust me that is not flying I think with many members of the community as being a transparent process and it even came up
in the council forum last night where candidates shared that they've applied for multiple committees and haven't been selected. So it's it's different than the council committee process. You know who applies. The interviews
are done in public meetings. So it's it's very different. Um, so it really, you know, is how much of this is the council's decision? How transparent are we? And I think, trust me, is is not um,
>> it does not sit well personally with, you know, me or I think the community. And I feel like we're in this case particularly because we we don't know. Oh, I I just feel like I'm also being um complicit in some
innuendo which makes me very uncomfortable. I know I can, you know, >> and I it um I suggested in my remarks, I'm getting a little off uh topic to the charter committee that that we revisit the committee appointment process that
they on council appointed committees as well as the town manager because I think our council committees have become too politicized. Um, but I don't I I think there's um there's there's not enough transparency in the way we've set up the
the town manager appointed committees because we don't know who's applying and there are people who apply to multiple committees and you know at this point feel like they're just never going to be appointed. >> Andy, can I jump in please?
>> Yes. So, I just want to I don't know, Athena, my computer's threatening to reboot in f four minutes. So, if I can if you know how to stop that. So, if I log off, I'll log back on as soon as I can. But to Jennifer's um point, which I think are important points. So, it it
isn't a com It is not a it is a town manager appointment that's reviewed by the council. It's not a count council appointment. You can say yes or no, and that's the that's the council's authority. It's a sort of advise and consent type thing. And so if you if you think this is not a good appointment,
you can say no and that's how and then we would go go back to the drawing board. I would also like to say I probably have not appointed as many people as I have appointed. We always just like the council we try to have an adequate applicant pool so we can draw from and we interviewed a lot more
people than we ever actually appoint and that goes you know a lot of people don't get appointed and um but their name um oh um maybe I get 10 minutes out of it um so I think that that's um
so I think that that's one of the benefits of the town manager is that you do have a a unitary figure who's been designated as a chief executive officer as the appointing authority and that's what the charter chose. Um they could chose they could have chosen a different path on how to do appointments. Uh one
of the advantages is that there is um you know people who don't get appointed are more shielded. It's not a huge public process that you know that this you're choosing this person over that one. This is different um because it is seen being seen as a choice. I've had to make I take this the appointment of this
position very seriously and it was um I think I tried to share with you the level of um it's really hard to discuss personnel issues but we treated this as a as a serious as a as an issue that we took
very seriously out of respect for um the the incumbent because I have a ton of respect for the work that that he does and has on um it's just a it's I had to make it sometimes I had have to make executive decisions and difficult
decisions and what I believe is in the best interest of the town and that's what I'm doing in this case um and and I think it is in the best interest of the town to to make um long-term to to make this decision
Ryan Right. >> So, I want to push back quite firmly on the notion that I just have the view of quote, "Trust me," unquote, or that I'm just a rubber stamp. I've been doing this for five years. Every time we have an appointment that's
presented to us for our review, I just don't take out my rubber stamp and slap it down. First of all, I look at the qualifications. It turns out we have someone uh a town manager who makes sure that we generally get people who are highly qualified. In
some bodies the qualifications may just a matter of interest but in a body like this there's a you know we're talking about the conservation commission I very much look at the qualifications as for inance the current candidate we have in front of us um I look hard at the qualifications
and this individual uh is very highly qualified. So that's the first thing I look at. Second is the process and Paul has been very clear about that process for the last seven years that that he's been town manager that I've been involved with this. Um in the last 5 years I've actually had an official
responsibility. He tells you what the process is. He tells you who he has an interview team. It's it's never one person or two people. In this case it's four. Chair of the committee, assistant town manager, a member of the conservation commission and himself. So I look to see
that the process is being followed. I look to see the process is is clearly stated and it is. I look also just over time do we have a town manager who has a history of arbitrary actions who uh doesn't who just decides not to reappoint people
willy-nilly and in fact I can't think of a single instance where this has happened in my experience. Maybe I'm forgetting something but I can't think of it. So, I look at all those factors and weigh them before I make my vote. I'm
not a rubber stamp. When I say that we trust the manager in this particular case, I think he's clearly stated what he has been trying to articulate and at some point. Um, I think you do have to consider that as a factor as well, but it's like the fifth factor and five or
six other things that I consider before I make my vote. answer and then I'm gonna ask >> so I just want to say myself afterwards. >> Yeah, I was not directing that at councelor Ryan you know that you rubber
stamp. I'm just saying it feels like and I've felt this before that you know that how you know Paul explained but it's we're asked to approve but then told you know are told
it's not our decision. So that feels like the process is a rubber stamp. Um I'm not you know suggesting that you don't that you are personally rubber stamping that I know that you're making a decision. Um I just have to say in this case
when we talk about the interview process the incumbent was not given the chance to interview. So the who the participants on the interview committee it's not as though they interviewed the incumbent and the three other new members two appointed one being
recommended today and made a choice. So I think that's a a different situation. Um, in this case, they didn't have the the interview or the individuals that sit in on the interview did not have an
opportunity to also evaluate uh the incumbent to the to this position. So, I'm going to step aside for a second from my role as chair um and uh actually and share my thoughts on the subject
which is why I raised my hand to treat it in that fashion. Um I think that there are two things that I've been thinking about with this whole thing. one is this uh what are the standards that I apply all um on a
regular basis as a member of TSO in in reviewing appointments and it is always is the person bringing the qualifications to whatever the committee or board is
that we're talking about. Do they have the qualifications and can they serve well? And um I don't uh that that is the focus. Um but I do take that seriously
and I um in this situation uh the person who's being recommended is qualified and uh brings some exceptional qualifications. Um it when you have two people who are both
qualified that the town manager is considered um town manager has to make a decision as to which to recommend um and uh those are difficult decisions under any
circumstance. I'm sure that that happens more frequently than we know about that uh a decision has to be made between two qualified people. But the way that uh we have proceeded has always been that we don't second
guessess that aspect of the decision our role is to make sure that the person who is being recommended is qualified. Uh the other um thing that uh was brought up earlier I think by uh
Jennifer was the question is to whether um having only four members who are members of the commission from the beginning of the of the process
involving the property uh down at Atkins Corner poses a problem because it's getting close to a quorum not quite I mean if if everybody is
there but it certainly is is getting close whether that poses a problem and I that one you know that aspect of it I guess I would like to have some assurance that um the conservation
commission can continue on and see that process to a conclusion which is from my mind a timing question not a qualification question. Um so those are my thoughts about it and
I'll leave it at that. So I turn it back to the committee as to how you want to proceed. Councelor Ryan. >> I'm prepared to make a motion. >> Okay. >> I move that TSO recommended town council
that they approve the appointment of Christina Smith to the conservation commission for a three-year term to expire June 30, 20, 2028. >> Is there a second? I will second to get it on so that we
can actually have discussion on the motion. But I do want to get back and hear if there's any more discussion. Uh Jennifer, >> well um I think you had just asked a
question. So this so then this um possible scenario was also raised in I think one of the letters that the council received you know from a member of the public which was
one of the one of the four commission members is also a candidate from the town council. So, it's I know it's a few ifs, but if that person is elected and has to step down at the end of the year and then there's
only four of the original commissioners who have reviewed this Atkins Corner application, they actually don't have a quorum of members. And I'm not, you know, we could say, well, the application will wrap up by
the end of the year, but you know, it could also easily not. So, what happens in that case? >> Unfortunately, uh Paul's uh computer problem did take hold. So, >> he'll be back on in just a moment. Sorry
about that. >> Yeah. Uh we're going to have to wait for a moment for him to come back because then I would uh if you don't mind when he comes back, I will ask you to repeat
your statement. There wasn't a second for George's motion, was there? >> I ended up seconding. >> Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I missed that. Thank you. >> Yeah, mine was a question. >> I just asked more than a statement.
Paul. >> I'm back. >> Okay, you're back. Uh what uh I Jennifer had started to had made a comment after you were disconnected and uh we sort of have gone into pause because I should
repeat it when you're back. >> Yeah, good. Thank you. Yeah, it was really a question and I know there's a few ifs here, but um this was brought up in a letter uh that um we received from a member of the community which was
so we have four members that which is a quorum. There would be four members that have been acting on the Atkins Corner application. One of those is a candidate for the town council. If that person is elected and has to step down, then there
are only four members that can continue to act on that application >> are only three. >> Three, I'm sorry, three, which isn't a quorum. And I know that, you know, we could say, well, it'll wrap up by the end of the year, but
you know, it hasn't. And it, >> yeah, >> my following it, I'm not it I wouldn't be absolutely convinced that it will. That's a that's a that's a very good consideration. Um, and I would need to look at the um the continuity of that
because we don't want to disrupt that the process that they've followed. They've put so much time and effort into that. So, I want to get that whatever they're going to do on that to conclusion. So I I will need to look at that and can report back to the council on that on Monday.
If that happens, would you be prepared to withdraw the um appointment and let the current member continue to serve in the capacity as
um is presently happening because he his term continues until replaced. >> Um I don't know if I would with withdraw. We could make it effective a certain date. So to see if we can get through the um
permitting for Atkins, >> would that require a new um appointment memo? >> Um it might be something I could deliver to the council. I I would need to check with um the conservation agent to figure out what that and probably the town attorney um to make sure the count we
would want the conservation to act on this. I I just don't know the status of that pro project right now. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So um Again,
I'm going to speak uh as a member, not as chair, you know, with an assurance that um the timing of the um appointment or the considerate or either as the
appointment or the beginning of the term would be adjusted um as needs be to asssure that um that particular project can be completed with a quorum of the uh conservation
commission seeing it through um you know comfortable I um I guess that that's the only issue that's that's an issue standing in my >> in my way. I would uh really like to
have had um had a turns before this committee votes. >> I know that council president is not involved with this and uh she would have to agree to it, but um we have 30 days
as a council to act. We don't have to act at Monday's meeting and this committee >> could adjust its motion or do something different. >> Guess I'm struggling to my way through
that as to how we could do that. >> Council Ryan, >> I guess Andy, I'm trying to understand your problem. Um the town manager has brought us an appointment and is asking for our decision. Um a number of hypotheticals have been put forward um
to which we have absolutely no answer or any sense of what could or could not happen. Um and the town manager also I think made it clear that um he is uh not going to uh recommend the reappoint of
this individual that we're talking about even though this individual is not actually in front of us at the moment. We're not actually talking about this person. We're talking about someone else entirely. They've apparently completely uh fallen off our radar screen. Um I
think he's made it pretty clear that um he is not uh open to or willing to um recommend reappointment and um it's also not on our agenda actually. Um so Andy, help me understand what it is that you
expect to be uh determined that would uh somehow alter your view of this. I I'm really not clear what your problem is. I think the problem is is that uh the whole Atkins corner project is very
important u I think to the community for numerous reasons that I don't need to state here and uh I don't want to have that process be jeopardized
and we don't know that that's uh in effect and uh if with the request was currently made um the assumption is that once the council
approves it u assuming that they do and it's recommended by the committee um then it becomes effective uh the the the appointment becomes effective immediately
>> and that ends the term of the person who's currently serving. Um that means that there had there is not a quorum present on the council who's been at this process from the beginning
and uh Don managers also indicated that he needs to make inquiry as to whether that's a problem or not. because of lack of certainty um
said that he would need to consult and uh to get an answer to that. So I think that that's what the problem is. It's not the appointment but it's the timing of the appointment. >> Does that make sense to you? Do you
understand? So, what are you recommending that we u postpone the vote and uh wait uh we uh is that I mean I'm open to suggestions. Uh there's a motion and it's been seconded. Um you seem to be suggesting
that you would like to postpone this decision uh and hence not have it brought to the council on Monday. Um I don't know what others think. Um I'm you know is that I think that's what you are
struggling with. Uh should we pause on this and when would when would we take it up again? We take it up not at the next meeting which is a meeting designed for one particular purpose but we take it up at a uh the next official meeting. Is that what you're suggesting?
I was suggest that is what I was suggesting that uh the 30-day window in any event doesn't >> right we don't have to do it right away we can wait that is correct >> right away >> I understand
and you think it's worth waiting because you'd like greater clarification on what might happen if if if >> Yeah it's a Paul, >> I apologize for losing connectivity. Um, yes. So, I think the the question is um
when does the term become effective and the council often and the council actually counselors often require a effective date on appointments. So that could be something that could be added to the council's motion whenever it comes up before the council if it's
Monday or the next meeting of the council. Under the charter, you made a recommendation for a change. Um once it once it's acted on by the
council, it happens. it goes into effect because you did not recommend it as an as a different date. Your recommendation was just the appointment because this has not come up before. >> Right. So, I would have to amend that um
that that recommendation to the town council. And that's the problem, George, that I had is that uh unless you're mending it right now, but it sounds like you probably want to get um advice from
your staff in conservation and planning as to whether u there's a problem whether it would be advised ible to make that change. Athena,
>> I think this committee can vote on its recommendation and then if the town manager decides it's necessary to update the appointment memo, he could do that by Monday. And we would um we would change the motion for the council meeting on Monday.
So our our vote would be on the appointment uh but not the effective date. that would could be changed but the appointment itself
>> um I think that you can make a recommendation on the memo that exists now with the effective date um normally the effective date is immediately because that's what the town manager has asked and then if the town manager needs to amend the appointment memo then he
could do that Monday and we would alter the effective date in the council motion on Monday. I have a feeling that this won't go on the consent agenda and so it won't need um the committee's vote to
change the effective date before then. >> Okay. So, we have a motion on the floor then that I think we've clarified. Um does anybody have any questions about what Athena's just said?
Are we ready to vote? I don't see any reason not to. So maybe we should proceed with the vote. Councelor Ryan start. >> Councelor Lord. I
>> councelor tab >> abstain >> and I vote I. So it is three to zero with one member absent, one member abstaining
and uh I think that concludes the matter. Is there any questions that people have of the time manager on other issues um particularly uh I mean my question is
whether you've given any thought to what this TSO needs to do before the end of our term u to assist with the RFP process if you get that um
arrangement signed and uh have the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission on board. >> Yeah. So part of the um this we have to work on the um work schedule but one of the things we two of the things we have in there are meetings with the I assume
the TSO committee um one at the beginning of the process and one once the process gets more developed. So, I think for them to hear what the council's goals are on this is important. Um, and that'll help them frame the work that they're going to do. They're ready to begin once we iron out
all the details probably as early as as mid is, you know, early to mid November. So, um, so I think we if you have time on your calendars before the end of December to meet with the the staff there. Um, and they're wellversed on Ammerst, everything about Ammer, so it's
there's no ramp up time for them. Um, I apprec appreciate you carving out some time for them. Probably an hour. >> Thank you. That's helpful because I am doing the planning for the uh whole committee process and continuing
to work on that. Council Ryan. So Andy, I think you asked my question pretty much. Um, and I wanted to echo uh previous comments that this is very good and exciting news. Um, I'm happy to hear that Paul's been able to finally make this work. And I'm particularly happy to
hear that we would have a chance, this existing TSO would have a chance to actually talk to and interact with uh the consultants um before our term expires. So, I I really hope that we um will make time. Um I know a number of us
have worked very hard on this and we care a lot about it. Um we realize that these things don't happen quickly. Um all of us, I was at least speaking for myself, I wish it happened more quickly, but I understand it's not life doesn't always work that way, but it's it's great news to hear that it's it's it's
in process. Um, and yes, I hope that the rest of the members of the committee will uh support the uh thought that we should uh make every effort to meet with them um and talk to them about what our uh hopes are and and thoughts are for um
this this uh uh waste hauler proposal. >> Okay. uh far as uh I mean I think the the we can fit um this into the remaining agenda items. Um
maybe I should u put on the screen. Um and this is not an official it's not a document for and I'm saying this for the public but I'm going to add to the screen for moment
is something that u see if I can find it to make sure I get the right thing up there. not finding it on my uh when I go to share screen. So, it's a problem I'm having right now. um the uh
committee plan that I have and I was hoping to put up on the screen, but I'm not going to uh belabor the point if I can't do it, is that uh we're adding a meeting for from
a week from today for just returning to the one issue of the U policy that the the town council policy and the public ways so that um a draft that I'm
going to do over the next week uh we have a chance to review and get to go so that we can keep that process moving and see if we can get this through the council by the end of the year. That's the sole purpose of next week's meeting
which will be at most one hour. Um we have meeting um scheduled for November 6 and um we were going to try and return to review of the Southeast Street uh to
see if there's anything that could could be done for the school when it's opened uh to make it as uh uh safe as possible for the new school when it is open because there is no time to do the a
process for major change and uh hopefully that will be a matter for the uh TPC if we can get the TPC done. um might want to have and we have on the um
possible agenda a uh brief review of what happened within the last council about the lighting policy because that was a carryover item to us and we're going to have to make it a carryover item to the next committee and
I will have to let the uh two people who are the the two counselors who are sponsors counselors uh Hanekly and Hannah and Delin Cathine know that it'll be there if either one wants to be
present. Um so those were the two things that are listed presently for that date. We um obviously are going to be picking up other things as we go along on the 20th. um to the extent that we want to
revisit Heatherstone recommendation uh that we have the opportunity to do uh to do so that's really up to the council because it's now in the council not it not not in this committee and uh unless
there's a request from the president or referral back it's really not in our um respons area of responsibility anymore or we've made a recommendation. Uh the uh but I did put it in there as a
placeholder. The aging and we were wanted to hear from the new director of senior services and I will have to contact her about aging and dementia study and senior services. Uh the police chief had raised the question about
downtown restrooms as being uh part of the solution to public uh defecation and urination and uh to get a report on where we are with uh downtown restrooms, particularly the one
at Kendrick Park that we know about and whether there are any others. Um and then November 4th we were going to um concentrate on the carryover memo and the assumption is that um unless there's
an absolute reason we would cancel the meeting of the 18th but we have a meeting on the 18th on the calendar nonetheless until uh we decide we don't need it u hopefully because of proximity
to the Christmas because there's nothing more that we could do that would get to the council. Uh there's no more meetings of this council that would happen after the 18th. It's probable we would not
meet. Uh so those were the u the the tenative agenda. Uh councelor Ryan. So, in light of Paul's comments, um I would like to suggest that we uh s make November 20
at least suggested as a possible date to meet with the consultants on waste hall. Um Paul can find out if that's feasible or possible. It sounds like they're interested. Um and I would speaking personally, I would very much like to make that happen. Um, and given the
schedule that you're sketching out here, Andy, it seems like November 20th, um, would be either that or the 4th would be, um, a date I'd like it to be added to the list. Um, I don't know what others think. Maybe they'd want this to
fall onto the next, uh, TSO iteration, but I would very much like to see it come to us, and November 20 would be, it seems to be a possible date. Yeah, I agree that we should it we should definitely have the opportunity or the consultant should have the
opportunity to meet also both ways an opportunity with this TSO just because there's going to be a learning curve for for the next TSO committee. I mean they won't be ready to take it up you know as one of their first or second items. So
whatever we can do to accommodate and the consultant can meet with us I think we should do. And I would put out uh just for Paul's uh thank you that if they were interested in meeting on
the 6th, we could accommodate it on the agenda for the 6th. Uh because uh I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on the lighting policy. It's uh not anything that we've done any work on and
it's just to know what we need to do to get it into the um carryover memo that we're going to have to develop uh is one of our last acts
and u the other is Southeast Street and that may take a little bit longer. I know that um Kathy Shane is very interested in participating in that discussion and we
do need to reach out to the schools because uh when I have talked with uh uh Superintendent Moing about it um literally u there are school related issues that are
important. So, uh, but we do need that, uh, we could do that on either the 6th or the 20th, uh, December 4th if necessary.
And so, Paul just needs to consult with person from PDPC. Anything else for today? If not, then we can take a motion to adjourn. I I will move to adjourn.
>> This is the highlight of my day. Andy, I don't want to leave. Sorry. >> Is that a second? >> Uh, yes. I think Jennifer did second. I apologize. Yes. >> Okay. We'll take Jennifer's second.
That's voting. Uh, councelor Ryan >> I. >> Council Lord >> I. >> Jennifer >> yes >> and I'm yes. So we are adjourned. Thank you very much. It's been a difficult
meeting. I appreciate everybody's participation and help. >> Thank you all. Thank you.