Now we're recording. Please go ahead. >> Great. Um, good morning. It is Thursday, March 5, and it is 10:02 a.m. and this is a regular meeting of the Town Services and Outreach Committee.
Chapter 2 of the Acts of 2025, extended through June 30, 2027, gives public bodies the ability to hold meetings remotely. This meeting is accessible in real time via Zoom and by phone and it is being recorded.
First, I just want to check and make sure everyone can be heard. Um, so Jennifer Tob, >> uh, yes. >> Andy Churchill, >> yes. and Pam Rooney. You're very quiet, Pam.
You're still quiet. >> I'm still quiet. Pam is here. >> Thank you. >> I seem to be having >> Yeah, I I know the feeling. >> Twice, Pam. >> Yeah, you're you're here twice right now. We have two Pam Rooneyies. One is visible and the other is not. So, who is
the real Pam Rooney? We're going to have to figure this out. Um, Hala Lord. Hala, are you here? >> It looks like she We >> just lost Hala. >> We just lost her. Okay. Well, when she comes back. So, right now we have four members of the committee present. Um,
and now only one version of Pam Rooney. So, there are four members present and Holla will join us, I think, in a few moments when she does. >> No, we still have two Pams. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> Weird. >> All right. So, uh
Paul will be joining us later, uh this morning, uh when he zooms in. We will go back to items, uh three and four, just for your um information. Um but we're going to begin first. Yeah, go ahead. No,
>> never mind. I thought I saw Holla in the audience, but >> Okay, >> there she is. >> She's here. Holla, can you hear? >> Yes. Sorry, I was having audio difficulties. >> Okay, good. Welcome. So, um we're going to go immediately to public comment. Uh
public comments on matters within the jurisdiction of the committee. Um residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes at the discretion of the committee chair. Um the committee will not engage in a dialogue or comment on a matter raised during public comment. So at this moment
uh if those who are in attendance um would like to raise their hand if they have any public comment to make um I will give you a moment. Okay, I'm seeing no hands raised and so um we will move on then to items three
and four. Um, as I just said to the members of the committee, Paul is currently not available, but he will be joining us later in the meeting. And when he does, he will give us uh he will give us an update on the waist hauler request for proposals, which is item three, and he will present his
appointments for TPC. Um, so we're going to have to hold those two off until Paul appears. And if anybody sees him while I'm babbling or we're engaged in something else, please notify me. I'll try to keep my eyes open, but I usually
have my head down staring at my script. So, uh, but when it joins us, we will go to those two items. Um the next item on the agenda, so we have uh we want to have a review of last meeting's discussion around possible
strategies to shrink the number and size of boards and committees which contain resident members appointed by the town manager. And this item, as you recall, is something that comes from the town manager goals and was uh sent to TSO for
discussion and possible action. And I think we had a very good and lengthy discussion last time. Uh we had Angela Mills here and we had the chair of RAC here, Jim Pisang. And so what I'd like
to do here, I see Pam, your hand is up. Go ahead. >> Oh, okay. I was going to wait till you finished your sentence. >> Okay. Well, that could be a while. Um, so what I'd like to do is give you a brief update of my conversation with
Paul and my suggestion about how we should proceed on this particular item going forward. Um, so this is the issue of shrinking and um perhaps uh combining or eliminating certain
resident bodies, certain bodies of that town manager appoints. Um, I had a conversation with Paul and with Athena and the sense was that the next step that probably would be appropriate is to work with the resident advisory uh
committee and the chair expressed an interest in doing that that we would um go I would go to them and u see what they would like to do in terms of reaching out to the various boards and committees. Uh the thought was that um
it would be most appropriate to start there, get a sense of what they're thinking. Um perhaps put together a very short but precise uh set of questions for the chairs to respond to also reach out to the uh staff liaison um and just
get some information um from the various boards and committees and then I would report back to you on what on what that uh what we learned. So the thought was to begin there with RAAC um and reaching out to the boards and committees um with
some specific questions about uh their bodies. Are they having difficulty meeting a quorum? Um do they have the right number of members? Um is there a clear sense of mission? Questions like that. So that was the sense that um came from that discussion. So Pam,
>> thank you. I was asking for or going to ask for some clarification on what is an advisory body to the town manager. And maybe Andy can weigh in because it was one of those charter questions that we um that an
advisory committee to the uh a multimember body that is advisory to the town manager does not need to meet open meeting law. And I am trying to get my head around which ones that actually applies to
besides the resident advisory committee. It's the only one that came to my mind uh off the top of my head. But then if I started thinking about um traffic traffic and parking commission that's advisory none of these except for
planning board and ZBA none of these and maybe um um local local historic um designation uh they don't have they're all advisory they don't really
have jurisdiction um so is >> so you would like clarity. >> So what? Yeah. What is advisory to the to the town manager? >> Okay. I'm going to go to Athena first if
if that's all right, Jennifer, but um Athena, do you have a thought on that? >> Uh so the distinction in the open meeting law is that boards and committees that are advisory to the town manager that are exempt from the open meeting law are ones where they are making a recommendation to the to the
decision-making authority. and that is one single person. So the resident advisory committee has been treated as a public body um subject to the open meeting law and there was you know Andy can speak to the discussion at charter
review committee about that um but say for example the cable advisory committee Paul has treated that as a public body that is subject to the open meeting law because he wants that process to be public but because they're making a recommendation to Paul and that recommendation can be carried out solely
by the town manager they're not required to be subject to the open meeting law. So um this is to allow say for example Paul wants to convene residents and staff and you know other members of the public get input from them in order to
make a decision all by himself that body that group would not be subject to the open meeting law. But our boards and committees while some of them may have power to carry out decisions all on their own like planning board and ZBA um
ultimately their work is part of a public process and some of those boards and committees do make recommendations that the council might then act on. So you know planning board makes recommendations that then go to the council for action. Um and some of them are required to be public bodies by mass
general law. um and say for example uh ECAC I think they're advisory to the town manager and council um but some of them might make recommendations that the council could act on. So in cases like that they are a public body.
>> I hope that helps. So there so there are really very few that are that actually qualify >> few that qualify as exempt, right? And even those that and even those that do qualify as exempt sometimes we treat as public bodies in order to make the part
the process and decision-m process more transparent. >> Thank you. Thanks. That's very helpful. Jennifer. >> Um, yeah, this was just more of anformational question, but in the four-page um in the packet, the memo
from Angela to TSO on page four, it lists all these um boards and commissions that uh have that authorize funds. And I was just wondering why like the um public shade tree committee I
think is there or even the conservation commission the design review board that it says that these committees are included among those boards and commissions that make decisions on the disposition of funds and I just didn't
see how all those bodies do that. I mean does the conservation commission or is that because it has to do with they approve >> you know applications for developments >> so that's considered a disposition of funds okay
>> okay >> so um would you like greater I mean I can go to Angela we can come back to this um and uh clarify exactly what you know what bodies have what authorities in terms of dis you know disposing of
money Um, is that something you would like to get more information on? That's a question for you. >> Uh, yes. I was just interested like what how is the public shade tree or conservation commission? Yeah, I would I would be interested.
>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Andy, >> um, I know the public shade tree committee, I guess they have a budget and they buy trees, right? or they or they buy supplies or I I'm not quite sure how that works. No, I guess no, they're they're that's public works. So,
um yeah, I don't know. >> I'd like to I'd like to hear that, too. >> And I think Athena I was going to try to answer Pam's question, but I think Athena basically answered it. know that when KP law looked at the language in the charter review that addressed the
advisory review committee they said you know advising the manager in his sole capacity to make for decision making so I think it's if there's sole if they're con convene to advise on something that's solely within the purview of the manager >> then that's you know that in a different
category than all the others Okay. Um, one of the things I'd like us to accomplish this morning, um, is to identify a series of specific questions that we have information we'd like to get. Right now, we have one, um, from
Jennifer. And I will try to keep track of these um, and certainly could use help in clarifying things and maybe also some backup in case I miss anything. But that's my goal today. Um, I deliberately did not invite any staff to this
meeting, though they're certainly welcome to come. I didn't forbid it. Um, but the thought was that I wanted to get clarity from you all of specific things you'd like to know more about based on the discussion we had last time from Angela uh in particular. Um, and so the
next item, next two items are going to involve that. This one actually um is more about you being in agreement that I can proceed to reach out to the chair of RAAC and um work with him and with his
committee uh to institute a process of uh review through them um and to create see they he thinks they're open to it and um I think it's the right way to proceed. Um, and then when that happens, I will report back to you what I learn
and hopefully they will take this on. And um, as I said, the kinds of things that I'm imagining um, they would look into is just first of all reaching out to the relevant boards and committees um, and these I would think would be limited to those that the manager
appoints appoints um, and letting them know that this process of review is beginning and it's very open. We're trying to so you know like I said have they had any difficulties meeting quorum uh they have any difficulties finding members um do
they have enough members um is there any question about mission or purpose um and then also contacting liaison and getting some input from them and then that would be brought back to us um and we would then proceed from there in terms of the the larger question of whether any of
these bodies could be reduced in size any of these bodies could be combined and uh uh or could be sunseted. Does that seem reasonable to you all? Jennifer. >> Oh, let let me defer to Athena first.
>> Athena, >> you don't have to do that. Thank you. Um, one of the other things we had talked about, George, that I just want to add was that um, one of the groups that we would reach out to through the RAC is um, staff leaison because often staff leaison, you know, in coordinating
the work of those boards and committees, they had some valuable input input about their function and you know um, they can add to that conversation >> and that Athena would be done through RA. We'd ask RA to do that. Is that your answer? Would it be done separately?
>> Um well, you can send specific questions to Paul and so so some of these recommendations um some of this discussion I'm sorry let me start over. Paul has authority to establish and dissolve town committees
most of them. Mhm. >> So, for example, we have on the council agenda this coming Monday dissolution of uh transportation advisory committee >> uh following the establishment of the transportation and parking commission. Um and in the process of putting that agenda item together, we discovered that
it it's Paul's authority to um establish and dissolve that committee. So, it doesn't require any council action. >> Okay. >> So, um some of this discussion is for you know is I I guess essentially advisory to Paul. Okay.
>> So, staff input could be gathered by by Paul um >> and then taken into consideration, but if what uh you're discussing right now is questions or um input that you'd like to share with RAC, then that could go to both of them too. And then Paul and the
RAC, I'm sorry, Paul will work with staff to get input about and by Paul, I mean probably Angela will work with staff to get input about boards and committees. Okay. Okay. So, what I'm envisioning and uh let me just quickly respond is that
um I would have some kind of contact with the with uh the chair of RAAC um and also Paul just to you know make sure that this is what they're willing I want to make sure they're willing to do it and that there's understanding of what we are trying what we're looking
for what we're asking. Um though some of this will be done by Paul, some will be done by Angela, some may be done by, you know, a a survey done by RA, but um I guess what I'm asking the committee is that they're okay with me um taking this step uh and and starting this process
and that we for the moment are not going to continue with this uh part of what we have in front of us. We're going to leave this um for the moment and and then get back to it once we get some information back from Paul.
uh other staff and from RAAC. >> Uh Andy, >> um I guess I just had a few other questions that I was thinking we might want to consider. >> Okay. >> Um so you had said, "Do they have trouble getting quorum? Do they have trouble getting members? Do they have questions
about their mission and purpose?" Um, I was wondering about do they have any recommendations for changing the size of the committee? >> Yeah, it's on here. Yeah. Do they have enough members? Diana, go ahead. >> Do they do they feel their work is is
utilized in some way? Um, I don't know how to frame that, but is you know, >> do they feel like they're effective? Would you say it's effective? >> No, I mean it's more like are they listened to? >> Yeah. >> Um, yeah. by whom um you know what
>> what parts of the government do they interact with? What a you know what agencies or agencies what departments do they interact with or >> um do they feel like their work has had an impact on town policies or actions?
If so, how? >> If not, what do they suggest? That kind of stuff. >> Okay. How's that sound to the rest of the committee? Yeah, Jennifer, please go ahead. >> Yeah. No, I was going to say um and
maybe if they have any sense, you know, I realize that the chair of a or members of a committee, you know, don't necessarily know what the whole landscape is of other multiple member bodies, but if they think they might merge with another >> body,
>> and you know, it may sound counterintuitive, you know, are you going to ask a committee chair if they think their committee has purpose, but I know one way TPC came to be is the long-standing chair of the transportation advisory committee felt like that committee didn't really have
the teeth to do what they needed to do and she felt that the town would be better served by a commission >> that had more authority. >> So anyway, all to say I think the committee chairs could have a lot of input. Pam, your hand is up and you need to unmute. Sorry. Go ahead.
>> Just waiting for you to call on me. >> No, I did. Go ahead. Yeah. >> Uh, another question that comes to mind is, does the work of this committee aid in obtaining grants? And that's not a reason to have a committee or not, but but it would be
interesting to me to know if if these um the committees themselves can contribute to grant getting. >> Maybe we make that part of their charge. >> Okay. >> Like you can't have a committee unless you bring in money.
>> Just kidding. >> I know. Okay. Um so just for the public um to understand that this is something that we are taking up as part of the town manager goals for this year that the
council asked TSO to to look into this and truly we are just looking into it. There's no um there's some ideas, some thoughts, some suggestions, but um the sense is the first step is is truly to begin by reaching out to the uh boards
and committees through the resident advisory committee and and start this process and that at some point hopefully within a couple months. I you know just a practical question is how soon we'd like to hear back. Um I don't know if people have any strong views but one thought was something like you know give
the committees like a month. Um, one concern I have which is just, you know, this is the way life is. Um, that this could just sit for certain with certain bodies for, you know, they don't meet on, you know, maybe they meet once a month. Um, and so it could be 3 months later. We still haven't heard from body
X, Y, or Z. So that's one concern. I'll certainly raise it with RAC and see what staff thinks, but hopefully this would be something done sooner rather than later, but it could take I would think it would take at least two months um for this to to take place. Um, so we try to
make it move as quickly as possible. >> Pam, >> um, I've been looking for I know we've been given it, but a full list of all committees and boards and I'm I'm having difficulty finding it. >> Can somebody point me to um
>> Well, um, there is there are a couple of places you can find it. In our packet, I have a particular item that lists all the relevant boards and committees that we are looking at, which is bodies that the town manager appoints. Um,
>> active boards and active boards and committees. Okay. >> Yeah. And there should be links, Pam, if that's the document that you're looking at, there should each one should have a link. This is largely the work of Angela Mills, by the way, but I took what Angela did. I took out um all the council committees and I took out
anything that was not and so that should be and it can be updated or corrected if I'm missing anything but that should be yes >> and there are links where you can go directly to the website and usually you can find the charge there >> um as well as well as membership and
other you know useful information on one or two occasions which maybe we'll go into and I'll reach out to Athena on this or somebody but um occasionally you couldn't find the I couldn't find the charge Yeah. >> Which is a little concerning
>> as part of this process. Um I think it would be smart to to start a list of of committees that we think really ought to dissolve and and having been one of the last members of the Amoris Redevelopment
Authority, I would recommend that the ARRA be dissolved. It hasn't met since probably 2022, maybe. I looked I looked into that Pam and at least according to what I discovered the
the body has to dissolve itself. >> So that raises an interesting question when the membership is no longer around or can't be found. Um maybe everybody's still I mean you obviously are here. Maybe >> yeah but my term my term expired in >> right so anyway so we will look into
that um as as a as a sidebar. Um, how does that redevelopment authority get uh sunseted? Uh, but what I discovered was it had to do it itself. Athena, >> uh, one thing that we needed to look into specifically for the redevelopment
authority was whether it was established by MGL and if and one thing that Paul mentioned, if it is established by the general laws, then there might be a a process >> for dissolving it if we no longer need it. And then Paul mentioned that we
might also want to keep it, you know, kind of quote on the books in case we need it in the future even though it's not functional right now. And um George, you had mentioned that some committee charges aren't easy to find. And I agree, there are some, you know, Sam has
been working really hard to kind of um standardize the board and committee web pages so that that information is easier to find on their committee homepages. Some boards and committees are established by town bylaw and so they might not have a separate
committee charge like the human rights commission is a >> right it's a bylaw >> um >> and I think there's at least another one >> and so those ones um you know we something that she's thinking about is like whether we need a link to the specific bylaw or how we how we make
that information >> more apparent on the website and um working within the product that we have for the website is, you know, challenging in many ways, but she's doing a great job with that. >> Um, >> just a practical question. If when doing the kind of research I've been doing and
maybe my colleagues might be doing at some point, if you have a question about you think something's missing, um, is it best to reach out to you or can we reach out to Sam directly? Um, who should we contact if we think, you know, if we have a question about a missing charge
or about some other item? I discovered something in which important piece of information was simply uh not accurately represented on the on the web page. And where do we go? To you to Sam or do we Yeah, >> the answer is always me andor Paul.
>> I can copy Sam or should I just do go to you and copy Paul? >> Counselors can't request staff. >> Exactly. Understand. Understand. But sometimes it's just a Yeah. It's just, you know, like a >> Right. >> It's housekeeping. It's housekeeping. that we should go through you is the answer.
>> Um, if you have something that you want staff to do, it's always Paul. It's helpful to copy me because sometimes I can >> Okay. So, reach out to Paul. >> Paul's inbox is even worse than mine. >> Yeah, that's what I'm worried about. Um, >> so well, it's helpful to get both of us so that if um >> because this is often this is really
pickyune. I mean, it's really I mean, it's not insignificant, but it's it's, you know, it's it's it's housekeeping stuff. It's it needs to be done, but but your answer is always start with Paul. Absolutely. Okay. >> And then and then you know it might be that he just forwards it to Sam to get a
response but it's up to him to do that forwarding. >> Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you. >> You bet. >> Um uh Jennifer. >> Yeah. I was just say in the packet it has says 2026 committee appointments or
when uh openings are coming up, but it's a four-page listing. It says 2026 reappoint process >> and that's a complete list of the boards committees and commissions. Is that correct? >> I've checked it against my list and my
list is the one that we just referenced earlier. Um yeah, it's some of those things might not be bodies that we're actually looking at. Um I haven't Yeah. So >> I'm just say all to say it's four pages.
>> Well, it's a lot. Yeah. a lot. Yeah. >> Well, the terms end June 30th, so there's and they're currently in the reappoint process now. So, it's like every single board and committee has um >> Right. That's what I'm saying. I mean,
that seems like it's a complete listing of >> Okay. Okay. I I will compare them as well, but yeah. Okay. >> I mean, those are all coming to us probably in the next month or so, right? All those reappoints will come to us or most of them will come to us. >> Yeah. Paul usually does them in batches.
>> Exactly. In batches. Okay. Andy, >> um just in terms of the timing or the expectations on the survey, which I guess you'll talk to the um resident advisory board about committee about, but >> right
>> is the expectation that they would that each committee would that it would be basically the chairs um filling out the survey or that the committee would talk about it and then give a joint response or what what do thinking. >> I think I'd expect Jim and his committee
to have some real input on that. Um >> I would certainly share a concern that I think they probably would have too is uh which is you know the time this would take and trying to keep the number of questions manageable. Um still trying to capture what we're looking for but if
you give too much people might freak out. If you don't give enough we don't get the information we want. So these are good questions Andy. I think you we're dealing with a lot of bodies. Um, and so I think it's going to be a challenge to get responses in a timely fashion and I'd very much like to hear
what Jim uh thinks and what his committee thinks and also obviously what staff think about, you know, how doable this is, but I would imagine it starts with the chair and then I think we'd hope that the committee would talk about it, you know, that the chair wouldn't necessarily just do it his or herself.
Um uh so yeah, I think there's going to be a fair amount of you know uncertainty in this. I mean each committee will do what it's going to do. We can't control that. I think um perhaps in the survey we could request well I don't think you can request that they discuss it. I think all you can do is this is
something we'd like you to to get to do and give us get us back to us and how they do it is pretty much up to them. Anyway, I'll ask them and see what their thoughts are and I'll give updates. I mean again the other thing I'm saying is when this meeting takes place I will come back to you and tell you what I've
learned uh and what the next steps are are are to be and hopefully that will be okay with you all too but okay so that that's this item that's where I think it's going to go that's the next step um and uh any any other
questions or that's helpful to me um Good. Uh, I still don't see Paul. Again, if he appears, please let me know. >> I just got a message from him that he should be able to log on in a couple of minutes. >> Okay.
>> Um, so if you want to begin the discussion on number six >> or seven. >> Yeah, I still we'll start six. Um, >> but and maybe just pause when he can log on. >> Exactly. so that he can
he can move on when he's >> So item six is again back to last time's discussion. Um this again is a quote directly from what the council sent to us through the town manager goals. Uh looking for ways to quote streamline and
improve the recruiting, vetting, selection, and onboarding of people. I'm sorry. >> Pardon me for interrupting Paul's here now. So maybe we can do appointments quickly. >> Okay. All right. So we'll hold on to item six. And Paul Thank you for accommodating me. >> That's quite all right, Paul. Joining
us. You've got a lot on your plate. So, um, we just have finished one item, so your timing is excellent. And, um, we're going to go back now, >> if you don't mind starting with item three. Um, if you can, the update on waste hauler requests for proposals and then we'll go to the manager
appointments. Can we do it that way? >> Sure. So you all met um Eric Weiss who was we have a contract with the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission to conduct the work that we had agreed to. Um you met Eric Weiss who came to your meeting and he started to work on it. Um
subsequent to that uh I've been informed that Eric is no longer with the commission and that they have um handed the project off to Mimi Kaplan. Now many people here uh are on the call may know Mimi Kaplan. She worked for two years as the town's waste reduction coordinator
for the Department of Public Works. She's uh has worked with Central Mass Regional Planning Agency. She has a master's degree from UMass and public policy. So, she's been in the waste reduction, waste management world for a while. She's familiar with the town since she's worked at DPW. She knows all
the players down there. So that's a if if we had to lose Eric and um it had to go to someone, Mimi is the a perfect person for them to go to give it to. So she is ramping up. Um this is an additional task for her that she I don't think had anticipated. Um but um but
she's eager. She's got she says she's got the time. Um and is going um going to be moving forward on this. Um she's we've sent her the information she needs the RFI and all the other material that the town has developed. Um she's going
to be reviewing the schedule and um I talked to her about whether um there would be a meeting it may be wise for her to do what Eric did which was kind of hear from the TSO committee directly. So that would um I haven't had that conversation to finalize whether she felt that was important or not. I
haven't talked about that with the chair even actually. So, so that's where that is. Um, most likely we'll not be hitting the schedule that Eric had put together just given the transition that has to happen. Um, so but he she he has uh
completed the warm handoff to her. Um, so that's where we are. >> Any questions from the committee? Uh, Jennifer. >> So, um, I thank you for the update. Uh, so had Eric started to draft the RFP?
>> Not the RFP. He was doing the other work. Um, I forget exactly what was um, uh, you know, he's he started the other work. The RFP is going to be done. It was sort of like putting together the options that you were going to decide on what to put into the RFP, right?
It was what are we going to what are we requesting proposals to do? like are we saying mandated curbside um curbside composting or are we going to keep the the transfer station open or not? Things like that. Those are the sort of criteria he was going to come back to you for for guidance.
>> And then so is Mimi Kaplan now is her ultimate task to draft the RFP after she gets the input from us. >> Right. I mean if Yeah, I think that's the that's the that's the last part of the contract. And
>> the council hasn't decided to do anything yet. The council has, you know, we're the idea is to create the actual bylaw that the council would vote to to put this into effect.
>> Okay. >> But part of >> Yeah. So the $75,000 that the council approved to retain a consultant >> Yeah. to take us through RFP and that included reviewing the RF the proposals that came in.
>> Yes. So the RFP is the second part of this engagement >> but it is part of the engagement. >> Okay. So is the is our contract or agreement with uh Pioneer Valley Planning Authority um for is the full
75,000 committed to that? >> No, it's not. There's it was less than that. I don't remember the exact number off the top of my head. I can send that. I can send you the contract if you'd like. >> Yeah, I'd be interested to see it. Yeah, thanks. >> Sure. >> Absolutely. I can send it to all the committee members.
>> Yeah, please. >> Uh, so being new to this committee, um, who who has it on their plate to actually create the bylaw? Is that with help from Mimi Kaplan to help write that bylaw as well? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Good.
>> I'm I'm done. I'm done writing bylaws. >> Okay. >> Um I think that um once we have gotten the information that we're seeking uh from Mimi um it would fall to this committee to um shape and fashion a
bylaw >> which would then go to the council um for its approval. Um it's not going to be right. That's what we right now are in the process of just trying to get answers to some very basic questions, which is what Mimi is going to help us
with. And I think a conversation with her um was it was helpful with Eric. I think it would be helpful with her. But that we'll see how that plays out. But um >> uh once she comes back to us with uh the information and guidance as to how to
craft uh answers to our questions, we can then begin the process of crafting a bylaw. We have one already. Um, but I think there were there were in fact a whole host of questions related to it that we could not answer and we needed help answering before we could proceed
to to any kind of final bylaw that could go to the council. So, it will be this committee um that we we draft a bylaw. >> And if I could go to the next item, we just we just got called in. So the the appointments are for the the three um
resident members of the traffic transportation and parking commission. Um we interview we is very popular committee. We interviewed a lot of people. So there's three people in um the my decision was to sort of um have um one counselor, one former member of
TAC, and one a relatively new person. So, the counselor would be Andy Steinberg who would serve for a one-year term to help with set up the committee and the commission and move it forward. The second would be a we have a new resident who went through the civic academy who is a um he doesn't own a
car. He he's mostly a pedestrian, takes the bus, works at the Yiddish Book Center as a communications expert, uh interested in helping communicate out the work of the commission. Um so and um his name is is Gisha and he lives on
West Street. And the third person is Kim Trembley who's been involved on the transportation advisory committee for many many many years. She lives on Cosby um and uh and um was very interested in continuing and she's also an avid biker
um but also a runner and owns three cars. So she's got the whole she's got the trifecta. Um uh so and I think she and she was um I like having the continuity from TAC. Uh in terms of the interview Tracy Zafian who you many of
you know served on the interview team uh she had not put her name in to serve. Some people often will ask that because she's been so involved in creating this uh commission herself because she helped really craft the idea of it and that that was the original proposal.
But then this committee last year put a ton of work to create actually create the commission and it changed in the terms of how the council uh conceptualized it which was really great. So those are the three appointments one for one year um one for two years one for three years because we
have to have them staggered. And then the only other thing as I mentioned is we forgot to add um Guilford Morin's name to the list at the last council meeting. So that's going to be you'll see that on the council agenda as well. So sorry is that Guilford or Guilford or
designate is >> I've asked all the department heads to serve at the beginning to help set it up. So Guilford himself. Yeah. >> Okay. >> So um are there any questions for the manager on these appointments to TPC? U
Jennifer. >> No, I think they're excellent uh appointments. Thank you. >> Okay. I see no other hands. Um, I have a a question for I have uh a question for Athena. Um, I'm assuming
that we're going to include Guilford in the motion. >> That would be terrific. >> Um, so there actually would be uh four names in this motion. Um, and so I'm going to make the motion and seek a second that um this committee uh
recommend the town council approve the appointment of Superintendent Gilbert Moing. um uh to the the committee uh to the transportation and parking commission for a term to expire June 30, 2027. Andy Steinberg for a term to expire June
30, 2027. Grecia Leafer for a term to expire June 30, 2028 and Kimberly Trembley for a term to expire June 30, 2029. Is there a second? >> Second, Rooney. >> So Rooney seconds. It's been made and
seconded. If there's no further discussion, I'm going to move directly to a vote and I'm going to start from my screen as I can see with Jennifer Tob. >> Yes. >> With Pam Rooney. >> Yes. >> With Andy Churchill.
>> Yes. >> With Councelor Lord. Counselor Lord, are you with us still? Uh, don't. I'm going to check my I'm going to come back to councelor Lord in just a second. Uh councelor Ryan is an I
and I'm just trying to see if she's hang on for a second. Uh she's here at least. Uh but her video and sound are off. So councelor Lord I'll give you one last chance otherwise I'm going to
>> um please could you repeat the question at my work? >> Sure. That's all right. We're just We're voting on the town manager appointments to the Transportation and Parking Commission. >> Yes. >> Did you have a chance to hear those? Yeah, >> I did. Andy Steinberg, Kim Trembley, and then um the other person who does not
have a car. Thank you. >> Okay, that's it. So, the vote is I So, the vote is unanimous. Um and so we will move that recommendation to the council. Thank you so much, Paul. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye.
>> All right. Okay. Um so we are back to item uh six uh review discussion on ways to streamline improve the recruiting vetting selection and onboarding of community volunteers who serve on the town's boards and
committees. And the goal here um is to um basically develop questions uh from the committee that they would like uh staff to provide answers to um related to this particular question of
process. Um so we talked earlier about streamline excuse me about uh shrinking and size and so on. The step there is to go to RAAC and hopefully get a survey here. Um, what I'm looking for are based on Angela's presentation, based on the
materials that she gave us, based on the uh, discussion we had last time, are there specific questions that you have related um to the process of uh, putting people on these committees,
interviewing them, etc. So I um saw four topics, recruitment, vetting and selection, actually three topics and onboarding. Um and if you had specific questions in any of those areas, um I will take them
down and then I will go to uh staff and ask if they will come and answer those questions. Um and also other questions you might have. Maybe there's something else besides those um that you would like answers to.
Um but specifically rated related to the process uh that we heard a fair amount about and we got a fair amount of detail in our packet last time. Lots of information. So u for a few minutes I'd like to just see if we can come up with
specific questions and I will do my best to write them down and uh I see Jennifer's hand up. So Jennifer, we'll start with you. Yeah, two things. I mean, there's not so much questions, but I think in terms of publicizing the vacancies,
I mean, there's always more you can do, but I it seems like we do do a lot. You know, the current will, you know, runs the um usually post the vacancies. The indie does. Um, it's on, you know,
Samantha Griffin is doing a great job of getting information out on public media, um, on social media, I'm sorry. And I think town counselors, you know, through their newsletters and their mailing list, that's a great way to get it out. And then just
>> kind of anyone I get it out just, you know, when I'm walking in my neighborhood. But um so I just want to say this is just a comment and with all due respect to Andy I have really been thinking since the last meeting you know I'm just concerned
you know there was the discussion about well there's a role for advocates and it that may not be the appropriate role for them on boards and committees but again you know one person's advocate is just
somebody else's involved citizen or resident. And I think that it's really easy to be labeled an advocate. Like I even think with Yeah, I won't go. Um and so and that's why I think there's some people who feel
like they are never going to be selected for a committee. And you know, there's people on boards and committees that somebody may consider an advocate for a different point perspective than they usually have. and those people are on
committees. So that's I think that's fraught and we really I don't know how we you know maybe it's just being mindful when somebody during the selection process but again I'm very concerned that it doesn't take
much to be considered an advocate for a different position. And I think you almost just come and make a couple of comments and you're sort of labeled as being, you know, one of them and then it's unlikely you'll be able to participate on a boarding committee. So
>> Okay. Uh Andy, >> you're muted, Andy. Yeah, I had a different comment, but just to continue that discussion, I I didn't mean to say that anybody who's advocated for any particular position shouldn't be considered for a committee,
but I think um you know, if you're trying to put a committee together that's functional, you're trying to think about the dynamics of the committee and you know, is it it's not that it's a problem to have different perspectives, but is do do you anticipate that that the people
that you're appointing are going to be able to work together and and and that that the the sum is going to be greater than the than the than the you know parts. So, I I'm just trying to I was just trying to uh think about if I was,
you know, the manager appointing committees that one of the things I'd be thinking about is am I going to appoint a committee that's going to blow up or am I going to appoint a committee that's going to be functional and be able to reach out to a bunch of different constituencies and and and and get some
work done. So I I understand the the the challenge of that and and I agree that we shouldn't be shutting people out um because they have different views from other people. Uh but but you you might have people who have who are are are
very difficult in committees and that I I guess that would be something I'd be considering if I was the manager if I wanted a committee to make progress and that's a subjective thing and I I would guess that the the council's role should be to say, you know, I've heard that other people applied and I think they'd
be good on this and I I don't think this this committee is good enough, so we should reject that committee, those appointments, you know, if we don't if we don't like them. But um so um you know um the the question I had was one of the things we heard on the
charter review committee was that people were getting c you know committees were getting fil filled out and then people who had applied were never hearing whether they you know they never got notification whether if they weren't on it they never heard back
and so that seemed like a basic courtesy that >> that we should understand what the communication is for people who've applied. I think Angela said in in some cases she's like, "Well, we have these three other committees. Would you like to be on any of them or something?" But I'm not sure if that's ad hoc or if
that's sort of what the actual practice is of notifying people when they've applied that their application has gone in. I think we do a pretty good job of that. But then it's like once the decision has been made and the the committee has been filled then it's like
make sure that people are hearing that and being offered other opportunities if that's appropriate. >> Good. So that's a specific because again keep in mind colleagues that what I'm trying to come up with I mean you can say what you want to say but what I'm trying to come up with is specific
questions that you would like to get answers to based on what we have read and heard from staff from the last meeting right now related largely to recruitment but we're also getting into selection and vetting as well but right now I have one question which is um what
is the process uh once the decision has been paid for those individuals who were not selected. Um I think we did hear last time that uh it's automated with notifying people that they've been that we've got their calf. Um and uh so now
the question is and obviously the people who are selected are notified and Angela did speak anecdotally about you know is instances where she would go talk to people who had not been selected and suggest other things but what I hear Andy asking is is that a codified
process is that you know uh it does seem like some people slip through the cracks and again this also raises another question which is one a larger one which is right now this process seems to be handled by one human being. And as I said last time, we're looking
at over 180, you know, maybe sometimes 200 uh positions that, you know, uh not in any given year, but but over the course of a couple years. Um and so one concern is is just is this just too much
for one human being to handle. Um so that's a question I hear. That's one I will note down. Uh Pam, do you have a question or a comment or both? Yeah, both. >> Okay, go ahead. >> I was going to summarize that question
and and the question might be um can we can we identify a standard operating procedure for responses to those who aren't selected. the just as a commentary on that the CRC has a
standard operating procedure if somebody is not you know selected >> and a specific message goes to them. Um I want to go back to to the point that Jennifer made and and that is um and
maybe we can craft this into a question but having people with differing views. I have sat on some committees with people that you know I typically voted opposite to uh at town meeting. Um but
when you are on a committee you are you are learning about that committee. You're learning about its its responsibilities and I have never seen you know a committee blow up. It's it just people work together once they're on the
committee. they work together, they learn, and they and they share um decision-making responsibilities. So, I think the idea of having, you know, somebody who's been labeled never finding a seat on a committee is bologoney, really needs to get
rethought. >> If we can shape that into a question, um I certainly hear the concern. Uh I think it was shared in my report from the last meeting. I can share it again, but right now um I'm looking for and maybe we'll come back to this, but specific
questions I can put together and say to in this case Angela um or perhaps some some other staff person, but um so if we can find a way to shape that into a question, um I will add it in. But right now, I hear it more as a comment. Um
interesting one, but it's it's not a question. Um it >> yeah it sounds like what we're part of what being uh this is focusing around hearing diver you know how do we ensure that we get diverse viewpoints um and
that just having a viewpoint doesn't uh immediately eliminate you from consideration. Um I'm not sure that's a question that that that staff can answer but um I can certainly try I can say something like that. Okay I see a hand
up. Um that is Athena. Go ahead. >> I think that one is more a question or concern to raise with Paul because that's about who he chooses to appoint on boards and committees. >> Fair enough. So that's not so much a recruitment question as it is a selection question which is the next
category vetting and selection. Um what I'm hearing from the committee by the way is generally speaking we think that staff does an more than excellent job in the process of recruitment and it's not just staff but we have the current the indie social media counselors. So I think u overall I'm getting the sense
from the committee that they feel that by and large we actually do a pretty good job um and uh with recruitment trying to you know spread the net as wide as possible. There is concern that in some cases people fall through uh the process uh either uh after the process
is done they're not notified or some people seem to keep applying and they don't get accepted and there's some question about why that happens and that's a perhaps a question that is a question for Paul. Um, okay. So, uh, vetting and selection, any
particular questions in that area and I'm typing and watching at the same time and so bear with me if I don't see hands up, but um, I see Andy's hand up. Go ahead, Andy. >> Well, I think that was the question that Pam was asking and I think it's a
legitimate question to ask >> under selection. uh right for and it's a question for Paul. Why don't some uh uh individuals uh why do they seem constantly not to be able to get on boards and committees?
Okay. All right. That would be under selection. Any uh Jennifer, please? >> Yeah, that's kind of a leading question. I don't um I'm just trying to think if there's a different way to phrase it. >> That is true. I'll think about that. I think you know
that's like saying I don't know that's >> well you could say there's the perception for that somehow that some individuals just can never get appointed either because they for whatever reason and um uh I think it's a concern that
individual councils can certainly raise with Paul. we can raise it as a committee, but I think some committee members don't share this concern and some do, but that's, you know, fine. Um, but right now it is kind of a a question
of basically why are some folks not uh appointed even though they apply over and over again? And I'm pretty sure I know what Paul's answer will be. I'm sure many of you can imagine what that answer will be. It's just that you probably won't find that answer satisfactory. But there's nothing
procedurally that can be done um that I'm aware of. Whereas in the question with uh a previous question uh we really are trying to understand a process and we can have it described to us and it can be you know uh improved or it can be you know or maybe we'll find out there
isn't a process. Maybe there is no SOP for once you know when you apply and you don't hear back there's no SOP for that and we can ask why and maybe we can help with that. So this is one. Second one here is is kind of dicey as far as a question.
Jennifer, your hand's still up. You want to >> No, I was just going to say I think I mean we should raise it in terms of the followup if you're if one is not selected, but I think that I think there that is happening now. I think it was brought to the attention of those >> Yes.
>> needed it to be brought to last year and that there's a process in place now. >> Okay. Andy, >> yeah, I would just ask that the that, you know, frame the question so that, you know, there's a perception that certain people are unable to get
appointed, you know, regardless of how many times they try and, uh, um, how how widespread is is that? Are there actually people who are, you know, you know, repeatedly refused for
committee work? Uh to what extent does that happen? And um how do you balance ensuring we get diverse viewpoints um with whatever you're doing to not not put some of these people on these committees?
>> Okay. >> I guess I'm just interested in how widespread this is. I mean, I've certainly heard from several people they've tried multiple times and they didn't get on. So, um, >> it see your your perception is that it's
it's um more widespread and you would like to have Paul's reaction to that? >> Well, I don't know. I don't know how widespread it is. >> Well, it's anecdotal, Andy. I think this is something, you know, I don't hear this very much at all. Um, in fact, I've heard it from one individual in my uh uh
uh in my district over four years. Uh, and it was striking to me, but it was one. Um, but then not that many people apply, so it's the pool isn't that big. So, I've heard of one. Um, Jennifer and,
uh, Pam, I think, have heard at least one or two, maybe more. You've heard of couple. So, uh, that perhaps is sufficient to say to Paul, you know, as counselors, we we get these, uh, you know, comments from constituents
and we'd like to have a sense of, uh, you know, what your thought is. I mean, I I don't think we can determine how widespread it is. I don't think Paul can determine that. Um, I think it's a concern that some counselors have. I don't have it, but some counselors do
and they would like Paul to respond to that concern. Now, I think he's already responded to it, but I think it's fair enough, and again, it's up to the committee, but it's fair enough to say to him, the committee would like you one more time to, you know, respond to the concerns that some members have about
this problem. And uh some feel it's well, some wonder whether it's how widespread it is. Some really don't care whether it's widespread or not, but they just want to understand why this keeps happening, at least to some individuals. Pam, >> you're muted. Pam,
>> I think it would be a good question for Jim Pistrang if he comes to meet with us. >> He's engaged in almost all of the he or the committee is engaged in almost all of the selections and I think it would be a a really good topic with him. he's,
you know, he's about as equitable a person as I have ever met and balanced all that. So, um, I'd like to hear from him. >> And I think I think the condition does exist. Um
and whether it's a minor recurrence or a major recurrence, just the fact that that people, you know, try and try several times and they finally say, I have I have tried three times and I'm just not going to go through the process again. >> I stop, right?
>> It's you know, >> so your question for Jim would be similar. Is this your perception? What's your sense of this? Is this a problem you've seen? Is this a concern you have? um is is similar question for him and you'd like that addressed to him. If he's willing to answer, I certainly will ask him. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. Uh Jennifer. >> Yeah. I I mean I've actually had a conversation a couple with Paul about this. So it's not that I'm I don't know. >> Right. >> Paul needs to come. I mean I think we've we've had conversations. I'd be interested like Pam said to
>> uh hear Jim's perspective. And the other thing I would say is this goes, you know, it's not just looking at who's applied in the last two years. I think this has happened over a period of years. As Pam said, if somebody's applied three times, even if it's in five years,
you know, they're going to stop applying. So that's um and the other thing I was just going to say, I think this committee is a great example of people with very different perspectives that can work well together. So it can happen >> so far today. That's true. That's true. so far today. Um,
so um I'm hearing with vetting um so you know with the work of of of staff of Paul of the RAAC I think I'm getting a sense that there are no specific questions and that this committee is you know impressed by or satisfied by what
they've learned and what they see and hear in terms of the process of actually um you know uh interviewing and so forth. Um though there's some concern about this as we just mentioned. Um how about onboarding? Um the other questions specifically
about that? Um again I think it's a process that Angela's been doing for quite some time. Um it I think there's fairly set procedures. I don't hear a lot of complaints about it but that's that's just me. Andy
>> um I've heard some discussion about um chair training. um you know what you know if you're on a committee and the chair knows what they're doing and can keep a meeting moving it's a lot more satisfactory than if it's really disorganized and you never you know know
exactly what you're talking about. I don't know how far we can go on that but I think there's some question of there is there some sort of you know at least a list of expectations for chairs or some sort of you know orientation to the role of being a chair
or you know I that seem useful >> okay >> and maybe to being to being a member and what the role of a committee member is too >> okay Athena has her hand up I'm gonna go to Athena >> um thanks George I I personally And
Angela also has offered um information and and I don't want to say training but you know like some kind of training for chairs. Whether they do anything with that information is a different question. You know once people are appointed and the committee is in
process we can't tell chairs how to run a meeting. Um and and we can provide all the advice in the world but um there's there's an extent to you know where we have to just step back and go this is going to work the way it works and
members have an opportunity to elect a chair and if they feel that the chair >> isn't effective or there's some kind of problem going on because of the way the person is chairing the meeting then uh it's member's responsibility to say you know we need to reorganize and select a different chair
we can't be in charge of that. >> Um, >> is is that information standardized? Is there something that you hand to people or is it just sort of like you catch them and give them what you can? >> Um, Angela does a chair training. I think she offers that.
I I I don't want to speak for her. I don't know. I don't know how often they they do that, but um but our staff liazison provide advice to boards and committees all the time as well. Um, for boards and committees that I'm involved with, I provide advice and try to make
myself available as often as possible or as much as needed. Um, and then there's a board and committees handbook and you know, off the top of my head, I can't recall how often or if it's been updated since the form of government changed. I want to say yes, but I haven't actually
laid eyes on it. Um, >> it's updated 2024. Multiple member bodies handbook, >> if that's the body, the thing you're referring to. It says updated January 2024. >> What I'm hearing from you, Andy, is that you probably would like just to hear
from Angela on this specific topic. Um, Athena can't speak for her and obviously there are lots of, you know, she has lots of interactions that Athena's not part, you know, party to. So you it sounds like you would like to hear from her on this whole issue of what she does
and what sort of the procedures are for you know training chairs orienting members. Um is that a fair description of what you'd like >> any? Yes. Okay. Thank you. All right. >> And if I could add something George
Sure. the the charter allows and I think the word the charter uses is shall um boards and committees to establish their own rules of procedure and they are then tasked with filing those with the town
clerk's office and I don't know of any board or committee that has established rules of procedure aside from the council. So, that would be something that I'm not sure that this body would recommend boards and committees do. Um, but it would be really helpful if like
the council boards and committees had some sort of, you know, document that that lays out, you know, how those things work because there are a lot of boards and committees that have members who've never served on a public body before and don't have an idea of how, you know,
>> parliamentary procedures work and things like that. And some boards committees are more informal than others, but it would be really useful if they did that >> in my opinion. >> Yeah. Um, one of my questions might be for
Angela. Is is there any way that um the sitting chair of a committee or board might be able to take on some of the um just some of the process for Angela um as as members are interviewed. I know
I know that the chairs often sit in on those selection committees. So, in that sense, they do participate. Um, but when I think of the the total number of of interviews and applications and boards that I mean this is a full-time job for
Angela and she has she has >> two or three other full-time jobs, >> lots of other things that she could be doing is so I guess the question would be for her are there some ways that we could build in um other people to do some of this
process? So, not just chairs, but perhap I mean actually staff assistants or you specifically thinking of chairs people are already >> thinking of non I'm thinking of non-town staff being able to help
>> move processes along to take some of that load off >> Athena and Angela and whoever and Sam whoever is >> participating you know it's it's you know these are all volunteer jobs so it's >> you have to have willing people to
volunteer, you have to have willing people to chair. Um, it's it's a lot to ask >> and and given that, you know, if you think of our population of maybe 14,000 people, I don't know even how many registered voters we have, but let's say
it's five or six thousand people, that's, you know, it's just not many to choose from. um on the the boards can adopt rules of procedure um idea. Um I'm wondering I mean if there's a
handbook maybe within the handbook there's a model rules of procedure. Um it's a lot easier to for a committee to say yeah we like all these except that one or rather than trying to come up with their own full full process for how they're going to operate. Or they could just say, "We're not going to be this
formal, but there here's the here's the model, rules of procedure for a committee." Um, it might just um get get things it might be useful. I don't know how many people would look at it, but um expecting each committee to come up with
their own rules and procedure seems unlikely. >> So, I'm just glancing at this document. Um, I imagine it's on the town website, but I happen to get it because I now serve on two multiple member bodies because I'm such a glutton for
punishment. And so I've got two copies of the town's multiple member bodies handbook. And I'm just glancing at the table of contents. Um, uh, civil discourse, open meeting law, executive session, meeting schedule, meeting location, posting,
recordkeeping. Um there's a that as is I think common in our town actually a very detailed and thorough uh document that spells out just about everything we've been talking about. Um I will take a closer look at it at some point. Others may want to do as well. But I think a
lot of what we're asking um Angela would just point to this and then as with Athena she would say but I can't force anybody to read it and I can't give them a test. I can't examine them. I can't, you know. So, the information in fact is there. Um, if there's anything missing,
we could be helpful by pointing that out. But, um, anyway, that's, I think, a valuable document for us to, uh, to look at or at least keep in mind when we're asking these questions of Angela and others. Um, in fact, I think a lot of it is here. Jennifer,
>> where is that? I'm sorry, I wasn't listening. Uh, >> I know. I'm assuming it's available on the town website. It's called multiple-member bodies handbook. >> Okay. >> And the most recent version is January 2, 2024. And as I said, I got it simply
because I was appointed to TPC and I got another copy when I was appointed to uh uh the Jones Library. Um exactly. And and Pam got the same thing. So she has it, I have it. Um and if you glance at
it, Pam, I think you'll see a lot of the things. It's got a fair a lot of information in it and maybe people are terrified by that but you know welcome to public service right >> I hate each committee to have to establish their own rules of procedure I
mean they have they have to do the business of the committee >> I think this is the answer to that um so I don't have any other questions there's not a lot here but we still we still have a second category or a second item on really a third item on the agenda I'd like to start >> um I want to give it about 30 minutes at
the most. Um, and then we do have some minutes to approve and I do want to talk about future agenda items and give you a sense of what looks like it's coming down the pike. So um unless there's further questions related to this topic
which is essentially process um I see one two I have about five questions here um that I will put together and um uh it's not a lot at the moment but there may be others in this next category. So, that's what I'm trying to do. Um,
because if I invite uh a staff member like Athena back, I want to be able to give them specific questions in advance um as a request for information. So, all right, the next item, if it's okay,
um is has to do with outreach. Um what do I call it here? Um it's beyond really it's it was partly uh instituted by Andy's suggestion that we take a look at what's in the uh beyond the beyond the charter section of the charter review
committee final report. Um I thought was an excellent place to start this conversation but the topic is not that per se but has to do with outreach and community engagement which is actually part of our charge as TSO. So, I thought
we could use that as a conversation starter. Um, I'm happy to have people offer uh topics right away that they have that they would like to bring up. Um, there's a fair amount in this. So, starting on page 18, um, there are a
whole series of suggestions, some more specific, some more general. And uh I don't know if people had any chance to look at it, if they were able to highlight anything or something jumped out at them. Um I just initially uh on
the very first page 18 um the notion that according to the report that um calling for the town government to more fully live up to the democratic values of transparency, responsiveness, public
participation, and efficiency. Um, I think the town should live up to those things. I personally feel the town actually does a pretty good job of doing that. We always can do better. Um, but reading this seems to suggest that at least the uh try to review committee or
perhaps a number of people that spoke to them feel the town is not quite living up to those uh laudable goals. Anyway, that's something I highlighted on my document. And then the little box item below create a functional transparency and public engagement working group. Um
I when I read that I thought that's actually us in so far as we do outreach and public engagement and um I'm also someone who these days particularly is reluctant to create yet more working groups unless
absolutely necessary. So, I'm not saying this isn't an important topic, but I think we already have a committee that um is interested in exploring this and partly from the council's charge to it through the manager's goals. Anyway, that was my initial uh thought on that
first page. Um, and Annie, I'm coming to you in a second, but I just wanted to orient us. Excuse me. And then make clear the various ways residents can participate in town's governance and weigh in on government decisions.
And I hope everyone read this list. >> Could I share it on the screen? >> Uh, can someone do that easily? I'm not I don't know. Um, maybe I can. Hang on for a second. >> I think I can. Um, do you need to be um, >> No, you can. Andy can.
>> Andy can. Okay, Andy, thank you. That would help me. I can do it, but I'm juggling a lot of balls here. Um, >> let me see if I Is it Are you seeing this? >> Yes, it's there. It's there. And um >> you were talking about this section of
the beyond the charter and then you were saying that it was down in section B public engagement >> public engagement issues and I was just responding to the sentence uh and then to this box item. So the the sentence here um however taken in a
broader scope this is the very first paragraph under B the last sentence um these comments and requests cumulatively indicate so the committee seems to be suggesting that based on what they heard um a considerable public desire and urgency for town government to more
fully live up to these very laudable uh goals and my comment was these are very loudable goals. I personally feel the fact based on what I've seen, heard, and done for the last number of years, the town actually does a pretty good job, but um we can do better. And so I think
this is a conversation worth having. But anyway, I had a little reaction to that. And then the box item at the bottom there um I just felt really that's us. Um or could be us, but others may disagree. And then I thought we'd start
looking at I and then the next page, Andy, was just a list of the ways in which citizens can be involved. The one thing that I think was missing from this list that I noticed, um maybe it wasn't appropriate here anyway, was simply public comment. Um certainly a way that residents can participate in the town's
governance and weigh in on decisions is through public comment, both written and in person. Um so but then you look at that list and um it's quite it's quite substantial.
Um so that was my thoughts just initial Andy your hand was up first and then uh Pam and then Jennifer. Um trying to see if I can lower my hand. Um yeah, so within that box, the committee
recommend the the committee recommendation, it did say uh this could entail referring to an exist existing committee. So that could be us and and it seems legit to me. Um so then just below to to to sort of summarize there
are a variety of ideas that came up in the you know in the discussions and in the contact with the public. So there was this notion about that the the the second bullet is about public comment being frustrating for
people and the first bullet being about the variety of ways that residents can participate and weigh in on on decisions. So those two are sort of related but having a you know having having a sense of you know notification about when things are happening um clear
communication about how you know how and and when public comment will be you know considered in decision making. Maybe having some sort of flowchart for public input like when to call staff versus a counselor different ways of bringing an
issue forward etc. Um so then um you know a variety of things around how public comment could you know could be uh tweaked or or utilized
>> clarifying the application process for boards and committees. We've just been talking about that, >> right? >> There was some interest in the civic academy, you know, that that, you know, making that that that the town has recently developed a course on how Ammerst operates and maybe there are
ways to, you know, make that w more widely available, whether it's through videos on YouTube or more civicies or, you know, um, giving that giving presentations to various neighborhood associations or groups. Um
>> Andy, I'm interrupted here for a second if you don't mind and I beg your indulgence, but um just to remind the committee and everyone that what I'm looking for are questions that I can form. So maybe a question here. Would you like to hear from staff about the
civic academy uh and what its future is going to be? Um what plans are for it and what are ways in which it could perhaps better uh meet some of these concerns? Is that a question you'd like to have answered and have staff come and talk about? Um because I'm assuming
everyone's read this document, everyone has, as I have taken some notes and has some thoughts on it. Um and we can continue. I don't mean to stop you. We can continue through it and look at all of them in aggregate and then come back. But what I'm really looking for are
concrete questions um that uh I can then take to staff and say, "We'd like you to come and answer or respond to some of these concerns or questions." Um, and so one might be Civic Academy. Um, uh, do people want to, you know, hear about
this more? Do they have questions about it? Um, I'm getting a sense the answer is yes, but I don't know. Um, and so that's I'll stop. Why don't you continue, Andy, for a moment and then I will go to Pam and then to Jennifer. >> Okay. I I just want to make sure people
actually saw all the different types of things, but that you're you're right to assume that people have have read this. So I guess in terms of questions one would be would it be possible to develop you know a protocol or flowchart for public input. So to really let people know the various ways that they can you
that they can be involved and that they can try to you know affect the the workings of of of government. Another would be um you know can we take the information that went into the civicmies and make it
more broadly available through a variety of media. Uh another one would be can we get a can can we get a greater level of detail and budget documents so that they are similar to the level of detail that Northampton's has. Another one would be
what's going on with the website? how is that being worked on and how you know how how could we have a better search function or whatever. >> So I think those are those are sort of the ones that I that that I would highlight but um I can stop sharing this if that's not use if you'd rather.
>> No, please keep it up. I think unless people don't I mean we can scroll. I do appreciate it being up there. Um what I need is for people to identify and maybe we can do this you can send it to me offline. Um, we can try and do some of it here, but I just need to hear what
the committee would like to have more answers on related to this whole broad issue of engagement and communication. And Andy, you've given me at least three specific questions here. Um, I may need some help at some point uh refining them, but let's keep along in this
spirit. um questions you have based on this document or based on your own um thinking uh related to engagement and communication you'd like to hear more from staff about is what I'm looking for. Uh Pam,
>> the questions that Andy uh formulated as he was going through those I think are are really appropriate. Um we can we can ask the question you know how could we do X? How could we do why? Can staff can staff describe, you know,
how this might get accomplished? I think those are the kinds of questions that it's the only way to sort of get an answer to to taking those steps. Um, a question that comes to my mind is >> is and I don't know who we ask, but is
it appropriate for TSO to hold a forum specifically about public input? and it could address any number of these questions >> um or or or comments that that were heard,
but you know, would that be helpful? >> No, I think that'd be a question for us. Uh I think it's a good question um Pam and once we get I think some u input and feedback from staff um we might very well consider whether we'd like to do
some kind of public forum as a committee inviting the public to hear what we've learned and to invite their questions and responses to what we've learned. I think that would be appropriate. I don't think that's something we can't do. I don't think it needs any special uh dispensation. Um, but I think first task
is to see if we can get answers to certain questions and then we'll we'll filter through that and then uh turn to the public and see what they think. >> Jennifer. >> Uh, so this isn't really a a question and I don't it's not a question we can
put to staff. It's I think it's something for the >> council to address and maybe we do it in TSO. But there's a lot of concern with public comment. you know that you come and you make public comment and you know it's like if a tree falls in the woods or whatever and nobody's there to hear
it. You know, you just never you say it and then you never hear from anyone again. You know, certainly if it's if the council's about to take a budget a vote and people are coming to make public comment on the vote, the subject matter of the vote, then we've responded through our vote. But yes,
>> when I guess I'm just thinking again of the situation with the DPW um employees, they come to the council with a concern and we can't respond, you know, which I understand. We can't we have an agenda. We can't respond to
their comments as they present them in public comment. So you know what we can then we really the only avenue we have is to call a special meeting to say you know we heard you and we want to get more information. I mean because people
do come and then we ne we don't address it they've just raised a concern but in this case you know it was important enough that we wanted to hear what more of what they had to say. Um so should so that's not a question. And I mean that's I I guess part of my question and this
isn't this is just process. So that issue was extremely important. So we may well hopefully address it in a special session of the council. Now maybe we can't always have special council meetings for you know other important
issues. So is TSO the avenue or the forum where we would say oh th this concern has been raised several times in public comment and we are going to invite those people with that concern to come speak to TSO. So I guess that's a
question. I mean how do we sort of systematize? I know you know sometimes people will come one person in town will come with a concern and make a public comment but sometimes we hear a concern and from many people and if we how can
we systematize some way to respond so they feel heard you know and often it's a very important concern that we should be addressing. So I also put in the packet um charter uh uh section 2.8
and I encourage everyone to print it out and uh or put it on their computer or both. Um it describes the process by which the council can request information from the manager and it states clearly the council's uh role or
uh task or responsibility or right to investigate and get answers to questions. But the questions need to be fairly specific. We can't just say Paul we'd like, you know, we want to just talk about senior services. Use an example that that I've raised. you know, we just want the senior center director
to come in and we want want to talk about senior services. Um, first of all, we cannot summon the senior services director. Uh, right now we can't because she's no longer there. But, um, we can't summon staff, but we can ask Paul specific questions related to an area
and then ask him to respond to those questions. And it's in his authority if he wishes to bring someone with him to respond. And so that's kind of the mechanism that currently exists. Another issue is just us uh taking up a topic uh
and and just putting it on the agenda um and then people can come and offer public comment on it. Um I think it's more effective at council but um but anyway there are um there is a procedure in the charter for us to the council to
get information and it goes through Paul. Um whether the committee can do that on its own is a question I have not gotten a clear answer to. Um, I felt that a sub a committee of the council is essentially the council,
but that's I I'm it's above my pay grade and somebody's going to have to answer that for me at some point. Um, we could always go to the council and say we want to do this. Would you please give us permission? Um, I think we can just go ahead and and directly ask the manager if the committee so decides. Um, and
then it's his call what he wants to do. Um, but that's one mechanism. Jennifer, your hands up. Go ahead. >> Yeah, I just have a followup question. So, in the case where the DPW union members come if we said if our response is oh we're going to talk to the we're
going to ask the town manager to respond to you. I mean this was a case you know when it's people are saying we make public comment and we we don't know if we're you know we get no response. So I think in in this case and it was c it's certainly important enough that
the council has to create a forum whether it's a special meeting which I think is better than having it just come to TSO but we have to create where we're directly not that we're defer you know we're sending having the
town manager respond but I mean we we want to get more information and maybe even engage in you and engage in a dial dialogue, not collective bargaining, but just >> what was that? >> I think it's more frustrating for to say you can always come make public comment.
We won't respond, but you can make the comment. Like that's, you know, that's like uh when you're dealing with customer service and they say, "I understand your frustration." So, >> well, Jennifer, I actually don't agree with you on this. Uh I understand the
frustration. And I think sometimes people come and speak and and then they're frustrated when they don't get what they want. But I do think that when we hear from a concerted group of people who um come with passion and articulate
uh uh concern um that does have real impact um and I've seen examples of that on a number of occasions. Uh sometimes on issues or topics that I'm at least initially not all that sympathetic with. Um um but when you have a a a good
number of people come either in written or even more a powerfully spoken comment um that does have an impact. Whether that will lead to the desired result that some of the people there want is a a totally different question. But I do think that it's something and that's
what I was upset about the other night. Um because that was no longer a a public meeting. What took place uh after that meeting was adjourned was no longer a public meeting. Uh it was not recorded. Um a number of counselors were not
present. Um I understood why people wanted to speak and I sympathized with them deeply. But in fact it was not a public meeting. It was just a bunch of people talking to a group of counselors. Um so what I wanted and I think what you wanted and I I thought others wanted was
to have a special session. um where that conversation could take place. But for that conversation to take place, we did in fact need to hear from our town attorney and u the decision was made not to do that and that was the end of the meeting because that was the only thing
on the agenda. Everything that transpired after that was no longer a public meeting and um so that was unfortunate and maybe we'll able to get past that at some point. I think some very powerful things were said um but they were not said in public. It was not
recorded. It was not a public meeting. I would very much like to hear those things said in a public meeting. >> Right. I agree. But there was a newspaper article. So it is >> No. No. Yeah. That's true. And so that sort of >> the community is now informed. >> Well, those who read the newspaper. Yes. But as public elected officials who
function in a public space by very clear and strict rules that it didn't happen and that's unfortunate. Now maybe it will happen, maybe other ways of what whatever. So, um, I'm off topic. We're both off topic, but >> Right. But I want to say, so an example
is in Well, I I know it's it's different because it's a service, but I think, you know, on Heatherstone with the roundabouts in the last TSO sess session, we had several um I guess you'd say forums about that.
And I do think even if if it didn't go the way different, you know, some residents wanted the roundabout, some didn't, but I think they all felt heard that we gave them the opportunity more than once and we, you know, we they so I think
to the extent, you know, again, not everybody's going to get the response that they may want, but at least, you know, we have to for people >> they're not going to get the result they want. I think >> the result, right? But they felt like they had an opportunity to be heard. >> I agree. I think that's true personally.
Yeah. Uh Andy, your hand. So >> yeah. Um the I think that the you know we and I'm just sort of recounting the experience that we had um on the charter review committee, but we
heard about the frustration quite a bit. Um and then but there's a pairing that with making clear the various ways residents can participate um was something that that we thought was important because um public comment
to a certain extent is always going to be frustrating because you can't really unless you're talking about something that's on the agenda, you know, you can't take the meeting off the agenda because then it's not people didn't have an opportunity to know that was on the agenda. So, it's sort of speaking, you
know, you're you're hoping that something will stick for maybe a future future event or something or that you'll raise consciousness about something. But there are all these other ways where, you know, residents can call, you know, I mean, they
can petition the council to act on on an issue. They can require the council to act on an issue. Um, requiring holding an open meeting. We talked about these sort of public dialogues which are in the um the council rules. So it may be
that that we we need to use those more and that though you know or that we need to make people conscious of the full range of ways that they can you know lobby their representatives or create or or ask for a venue in which they there
can actually be give and take. So or or for us to recognize those opportunities. So, um, so I think those two those the first two bullets are kind of paired in in in the report there, you know, having and I think that's what happened in this most recent case that there was public
comment and somebody a counselor recognized that that was an issue and several other counselors agreed and so then we tried to create, you know, a forum for discussion and so once we figure out how to do that the right way, then then we can do that. So having that sense that public comment
is not the only way you can be heard I think is really important. At the same time there are probably ways to make public comment a little less frustrating you know so >> the question would be what are ways that and I don't know if this is for staff uh
I don't know who it's for but the question would be what are ways in which public comment could be made less frustrating? I mean, I really wonder what the question is. What are ways in which public comment
could be improved? >> Um, I I think what are the ways public comment can be um >> I mean, I guess I'd like to see it situated in what are the ways people can can be heard and what's the role of
public comment in that and what are some other alternatives and how can people access them. So, it's everything question. Yeah, that's not a question for staff. That's really a question for us. Um and uh Right. I mean, or can you make I don't see how staff can answer that.
>> Oh, we're looking for staff questions. Yeah. >> Yeah. The whole purpose of this is if it works is to come up and I have a bunch of questions already. Um can we create you know to staff can is there a way and this has all worked for them and I can imagine their their you know sense of
panic but it's fair to bring them in and talk to them and hear what they think. um create a protocol or flowchart for civic involvement. Uh can we take uh the information gleaned from the civic academy and make it more widely known? What are ways we can make the website more functional and can improve it? What
are maybe things are being done? We just want to know how that's going, where we're at. What are the challenges? >> George, George, Athena has her hand up. >> I know, but I'm still talking, but thank you. It's okay. Um I didn't see her hand. Athena, go ahead.
>> Thanks. Bam. >> Um I I just want to I want to highlight something that um that Andy touched on and that is that what you're talking about specifically right now is public comment and engagement at public meetings which is very tricky due to
open meeting law and other considerations that we have to take during public meetings that you know like people have mentioned the council can't take up topics that aren't on the agenda and it's difficult to create a dialogue during public comment sessions and so on. But there are a host of ways
the council and um and other board and committee members and so on can engage with people outside of public meetings. um counselors I think I I'm not sure the last time there have been counselor office hours but counselors can you know
create meetings and um now that we've we're we're out of the thick of COVID and into a different phase of uh pandemics you can um schedule office hours at the black sheep or other you know places physically or on Zoom and
engage with constituents that way. I think um you know just wanting to point out that engagement with constituents doesn't always happen to have have to happen during a public meeting and that that is really valuable too because conversations can be had there that um
that are just simply not not as you know not as easy to have during a room full of people. And uh as as somebody who really hates public speaking, if I had a concern that I wanted to bring to one of my uh elected representatives, the likelihood that I'm
going to do that in public is pretty low. Um but I might write a letter or I might pick up the phone. So I think, you know, I just want to highlight that there are lots of different methods of doing this. It doesn't always happen have to have have to happen in a public meeting. >> Thank you. Um Pam and then I'm going to
make a suggestion. Pam >> that. Thank you, Athena. That was that was really helpful. I have a actually a question for Athena. Is it is it just a policy that we don't uh we don't dialogue in our public meetings for
instance in a CRC meeting or in this meeting? Is it just policy that we don't respond or is it um part of open meeting law that we don't respond if we are on a topic that's been not noticed?
>> So this was something that and maybe Andy you can speak to this more. The charter review committee did consider about adding special public comment periods during specific agenda topics in the meeting and we have done that in the past. um not not only for public
hearings but for other topics where there might be interest in that specific topic. If um if a speaker were to raise an issue that's not on the agenda then you know there are certain limitations that that are that exist about how much the the council or the other body can
discuss it. if it is on the agenda going back and forth with a commenter. I mean, so the the qu what what is raised is a question of equity. If a commenter speaks for three minutes and then there's back and
forth between counselors and the commenter, then is everyone given an opportunity to do that? How much time does the council spend with each person? you know, we need to make sure that everyone is treated fairly. So, if someone speaks for three minutes and
then somebody else speaks for three minutes and then has a a further 10-minute back and forth with counselors, is that fair to everybody? And are we giving everyone equal speaking time and engagement? Um, so there are lots of
reasons that we do things the way we do, and that's not to say that the way we do things is perfect and that we shouldn't revisit them. often. Um, thank you. Yeah. >> Okay. Um, in terms of our timing and
agenda and at the desire to end at noon, I am going to suggest, uh, I'm actually going to bring this to a halt, this discussion for the moment. Um, I'm going to give you a little bit of homework. uh if you will take it seriously which is we started to put some questions
together on this particular item uh number six I'm sorry item seven actually on the agenda um I would ask you uh if you could between now and the next time we meet um to formulate specific questions related to the issue of public
engagement and um uh and you can use this document I think there's still a lot more here we could talk about um because the goal here is to come up with a set of questions that um we could then take to staff and ask them to come and speak to us about them. And so I'm going
to have suggest this come back at a future uh meeting um and continue the discussion. And what I'd ask you to do um assume you've already read this once uh obviously we're reading it in council as well because this is before the council. Um, but if you could come up with some specific questions in advance,
um, or send them to me in advance, but be have some ready because the goal here is to come up with questions. Um, so we're not ready to proceed with, uh, the issue of engagement and, uh, public outreach, public engagement and outreach yet. Um, we still have some work to do.
Um, but we've made some progress. Um, the next item on the agenda is uh, future agenda items. And I wanted to talk to you briefly about what the schedule is looking like. Um, as we heard uh,
well, where to start? Paul has said that he would like to have Jason Skills come and speak to us TSO about the roads and sidewalk plan. Um, and that was either would be April 2nd or April 16th. Uh, it
would not be at the next meeting date. Um, I would like to calendar with Paul a meeting with the uh the new Pioneer Valley Planning Commission representative working on waste hauler. Um, and I'd like that to be either April
2nd or April 16th. It will not be able to be done for the next meeting, I do not think. Um, but those are two things that are coming up um, uh, soon. Um, I do have a set of questions that we could present to Angela Mills and I could ask
her to come on either April 2nd or April 16th um to address those questions and you can certainly send me more but the the point would be that I would send specific questions to her and ask her to come and be present. Um, at this point I don't think we have anything sufficient
for the area of outreach and public engagement. Um, I will be meeting with Jim Pistrang and the RAAC at some point soon and I will report back to you on what I learned and what they are thinking in terms of proceeding on that. Um, and uh, what
else? >> Sorry, George. Weren't we gonna didn't we talk about having >> um Jim and or others from the RAAC come talk to us? >> Uh, no. First, what I was suggesting, well, we can clarify. I was suggesting
that I reach out to them and find out if their committee is willing to do it. Jim has not raised this with the committee yet. Um, and I think there's also a question of what exactly we're asking them to do. And so, I was going to take what we had a very thorough discussion today. I was going to take uh our
thoughts and our questions to him and confirm that they're willing to take this on, talk to him about, you know, timing, procedure. Okay. >> That's Yeah, that's what I Yeah. Um, so we'll hear back on that at least for a couple weeks or maybe more. Um,
what else? Uh, f other future agenda items that people have. I'm wondering I will not be here on March 19 and um my understanding is that the meetings I've been talking about with uh Jason
Skills and with the new PVPC rep will take at least a couple weeks to arrange. Um so I'm wondering if we want to meet on March 19. And so the question becomes uh and we don't have to decide this right now but at the moment I'm leaning unless there are appointments that Paul
has um uh which might necessitate a meeting um I'm leaning towards cancelling that meeting um and I've got some work to do myself with RAAC um and so that's where I think we're headed uh in terms of future agenda items.
Questions? Jennifer? >> No, I would just say unless there's committee appointments we could Yeah, I I'm not seeing at the moment um anything pressing. If that changes, I'll let you know. Um but that's where I'm heading right now. Um any other items that you
are thinking of that you'd like to have on future agendas? Um as I've said, road and sidewalk plan, a meeting with Angela Mills with specific questions related to process. Um and please send me more questions if you have them, but I'd like
to give her specific questions. um meeting with the PVPC rep. Um I'll be reaching out to to uh Jim Pistrang and RAAC and report back to you on that. And then finally, we will be following up on our discussion today. Um and again, what
I'm asking you to do over the coming weeks is take some moments and think about specific questions you have related to engagement and and uh public uh public engagement and outreach that you think you would like to hear from staff about.
Okay. Uh we have two sets of minutes uh in front of us and minutes for February 5th, 2026 and minutes for February 19, 2026.
Um any changes, concerns, questions about those minutes? I move we adopt both the February 5 and February 19 meeting minutes as as
presented. >> Is there a second? >> Second. >> So, it's been moved and seconded. Um, without further discussion, I'm going to go to a vote. Um, Jennifer Tob, >> yes. >> Uh, Pam Rooney,
>> yes. Andy Churchill. >> Yes. >> Council Lord >> I. >> And Council Ryan is also an I. So it's unanimous those sets of minutes with gratitude to Athena are accepted. Um I
don't have any other items unanticipated uh in advance. And so unless there's any further comment, I think we are at the end of the meeting and I'm prepared to move to adjourn. >> Okay.
>> And again, uh, Jennifer Todd, >> yes. >> Pam Rooney, >> yes. >> Andy Churchill, >> yes. >> Councelor Lord, >> I. >> And councelor Ryan is also an I. So that is unanimous.
That was uh that was intense. Thank you all. Um, I will get back to you in touch, but right now, as I said, I'm leaning towards not meeting on the 19th, but we'll see what uh the manager has to say about appointments. Okay. >> All right. All well. Byebye.