meeting you. >> Nice to meet you as well. >> So, um I'm calling the town services and outreach committee of the Ammerst Town Council to order on December 4 at 10:00
a.m. and u like to welcome everyone to the meeting. We have a quorum of the committee present. Uh this meeting is being conducted by a remote means uh which is now allowed by the open meeting
laws. It's currently in effect. members of the public uh are availing by Zoom or by telephone. And uh the uh this is a uh public meeting that is uh
being entirely done uh by remote means. Uh we're making the best effort possible to make sure that the public is adequately um able to uh view the proceedings in real time. And um I want
to remind everybody from the public that this meeting is being recorded and u that um it uh is being recorded both v u audio and visual. And with that said, I'd like to make sure that all of the
members of the committee who are present can hear and be heard. Um, Bob Hner, >> present. >> Council Ryan, >> present. >> Council Lord, >> present. >> Okay. So, we have four members of the
committee present, which constitutes a quorum of the five member committee, and we're expecting councelor Jennifer Tab to be joining us, and she just is. Jennifer, hi. Uh could you uh confirm that you can hear and we can hear you
Jennifer? >> Yes. >> Okay. You did. Thank you. Perfect. Uh so uh I'd like to um introduce everybody uh to Eric Weiss who's uh the consultant
who's uh assisting uh Paul Bachman. uh he's from Pioneer Valley Planning Commission and u I uh we will in a moment um see if there's any members of the public who want to offer a comment
but Eric is there anything that you'd like to say an introduction at the beginning. >> Um I am looking forward to working with uh Paul and this committee on moving this project forward. I I'm kind of excited by it. It's it's a very unique uh endeavor and I think that it'll be uh
really interesting to find um the results we do and how we can proceed forward. So I'm looking forward to that. And for those of you who don't know me um I've been working around the valley for the better part of 40 years working with municipalities at all levels um for a while there. I specialize very much in
solid waste and recycling and help promote the MURF and a number of other things. So, this is well within my wheelhouse to be able to do this and I look forward to working with you. >> Okay. And uh >> and you have an office neighbor too that the council is aware of too is Susan
Wait. >> Oh yes. Yes. Um Susan White who now runs the regional outreach program for D. Um I've known Susan for a long time because she was on the MURF advisory board when I was chair and that's when she was working for Ammerst as well. Um and I
also know her because we now house that program um within the PVPC. We provide her office space etc. Um and so that was by my um they were they asked and I said yes I think that the that the PVPC should house that program and a
negotiation between us and D and the executive director for the PVPC and Kim Robinson and we now have that she's three deaths over or like a quick walk over when I need assistance and she's also looking forward to working on this with me as well. So, thank you for reminding me of that, Paul.
>> And I have known and worked with Susan for many years, uh, because I'm the one who's, uh, about to leave the council, but I was on the select board before we even had a council and worked with Susan
because I was select board leasan to uh, the committee that was uh, dealing with these same issues. So, um, what I was going to do today is, uh, we have a practice with our committee meetings that we have, uh, a
public comment period at the beginning. >> Yep. >> And, uh, uh, I know that there's at least two people who are u in the audience who may wish to offer public comment that is on the subject that um,
we're dis going to be discussing. So um what I would like to do is start with public comment and ask that anybody who um wishes to offer public comment uh to raise their hands so that I know and uh
what I was going to do is then um have you brought into the room and uh ask that you try and limit your public comment to three minutes. But we do want to hear what you had to say.
And uh the first person who's raised her hand is Darcy Deont. So um >> Darcy, >> bring Darcy into the room into the meeting. Uh morning Darcy.
Um, and I just want to let you know, Darcy, that um that um what you sent to me yesterday has been forwarded to the committee and um so that you um can um
you know that everybody in the committee has uh seen what you have sent and we can send a copy to Eric um after the meeting. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Hi Darcy. Hi, Eric.
>> It's been a bit, but it's good to see you. >> We worked together on the early um uh joint powers entity project for the community choice aggregation. >> Absolutely. >> Uh am I allowed to start?
>> Yes, please. >> Uh good morning. My name is Darcy Dumont and I live in District 3 and I'm speaking on behalf of Zero Waste Ammerst. Uh I'm going to speak briefly about zero waste ammer's preferred language for a request for proposals
from local waste haulers. Um which I which you are going to be receiving. I thought it was in the packet but um I guess you'll be receiving it. We think a well-crafted program will significantly reduce our waste, our climate impact and
cost to residents at a very little cost to the town. Currently, we throw out at least twice as much as we would under this proposal. CWA got involved with this initiative back in 2021 and with three counselors
co-sponsored a bylaw proposal that was then referred to TSO in August of 2022. Phase one of our recommended proposal would serve the approximately 5,000 single and 2 to four family housing
units in town. Our recommended system would involve each household having three rolling carts provided by the hauler if the trucks are automated. Cart one would be for trash. By diverting compost from the trash, we
believe it would be reduced by up to 40%. By adding a pay as you throw system, we believe it could be diverted much further. Thus, residents would not need as large a cart as they use now. Cart, pardon me, cart two would be for
recycling. For recycling, we'd like to um to model Pittsfield by using a manual or automatated dual stream pickup and processing. Pickup can now be done with automated trucks on alternate weeks, one week for paper and the next for mixed
recyclables as in Pittsfield. According to the Springfield MURF, single stream recycling results in 20% diversion to trash and dual stream recycling results in only 5% diversion to trash. Part three would be for compostable
materials. Having curbside compost pickup allows for diverting a wide range of compostable materials, including not just food scraps, but items that are not backyard compostable, like compostable takeout containers, dirty paper, eggs, and meat.
potentially yard scraps can be added too. The contractor would ideally handle customer service and complaints, supply and maintain the carts, collect data, do some degree of outreach and education, and spot checks for enforcement. The
town could provide the billing based on a standard fee for service, plus an additional or more frequent service needed. The town could supply official town bags in 13 and 30 gallon sizes available at local stores in the transfer station as done in South Hadley
as a further pay as you throw strategy. Phase two would ideally include our businesses, condo and apartment complexes and municipal schools, buildings and parks. CWA has spent a lot of years discussing the details of this potential program, looking at other
states and new developments. I hope you'll give plenty of consideration to our recommendations, ask questions, and include us in deliberations. There's a lot of information on our website about the history of this proposal and resources related to it, which we invite
you all to look at. Thank you so much. >> Thank you, Darcy. Appreciate it. If is there anyone else in the audience who would like to raise their hand and be brought into the room for public comment? Seeing none, then I'm I'm going to
conclude the public comment period and uh turn to Eric and uh ask uh you to um ask to to to share your goals for the meeting and uh
then we will continue. >> Okay. Um first of all um thank you to Darcy for um um saying all that. Those are all important points and they're they're points that have been made over a number of years with regards to how to
um implement a best strategy on in terms of best practices and best strategy on handling solid waste and moving towards zero waste. So those the suggestions in there I will I will certainly take into account. Um, so I think the goal this morning was really just to kind of go
over the scope of what I'm doing, how I'm trying to do the work for the town, how I'm working with Paul, and um, what would be the net results of that come out of that. And so I put together a what I call the simplified scope um, for this, which just says, okay, we've
started on the project, we're working on it now. Um, the first piece was doing some research on the current status of waste recycling efforts. Um, oh, you're gonna put it up there for me. I appreciate that very much. Um, and so, um, I just want all of I want to
reassure all of you that I have a long history of not only working in solid waste, but a long history of working with Ammerst on solid waste years ago, um, before it was I don't know if the words fashionable or not, but fashionable. I taught a sustainability course at UMass Ammerst as an adjunct
professor and every fall and every spring we did a tour of the landfill and what was over at the transfer station. And so, um, I I saw it happen. I mean, those things were happening at that time. So, that's all good. And I know that you, um, offer a lot of services at
the transfer station over at the landfill and that there's, um, private, um, haulers and and others that work the town over. So, the the idea here is to really characterize where you're at so that we can give a direction to where you want to go. Um and um that would reg
be regards to previous requests for proposals taking into account the Ammeris zero waste groups um um ideas and goals working with the town manager. Um we've had a couple of preliminary and and detailed discussions. We're going to have another one I think tomorrow. Um
and we're really trying to dig into this uh best ways possible to frame it in the best ways possible. Um, so then there's a whole section here of trying to meet with people that are involved with town services like your DPW director and the comments that I get here today. Um, as
well as moving towards and I'm just going to put this all in one big ball and then we can break it down however you want. Um, moving towards this be best practices option. Um, I see that there are some things that have been mentioned about Pittsfield and some other towns. Um this idea of going to um
pay as you throw is certainly not a new one, but it is certainly really beneficial. I've put them in place in a number of communities. Um um I use the one in Belchuretown myself to be honest, and I really think it is a great incentive to get people to divert as
much material as possible, but you need to provide them with adequate options if you're going to ask them to do that. You can't just say divert it and hope it happens. You got to be able to provide the services that go with that. Um, so the idea here is to develop what I'd like to call a road map or but I don't
want it to be a just a report that lands on all of your desks and you know goes stump and nobody uses it again. I'd rather have a working document that says here's the options, here's the directions you can go in sort of a phased approach of how do you reach fa you know the end of phase one phase two
there going to be pieces here which will be really easy to do and there going to be pieces here which are going to be more challenging to be done but all of them need to be identified. Um and then then the idea here is to wrap this up um pretty quickly. I mean this window is is a pretty um small window because I know
you want to move on it towards um annual town meeting and you want to get this piece pushed forward um in a reasonable fashion but in a way that is also um meets the town timeline goals and other pieces. So, basically from now until April, there's going to be um time spent
mostly by me here at the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission um to work with the town and put this together in a way that works for everybody. Um the details um that are are going to be uh really trying to do the right research and get
the right connections made and have the right discussions with the the the haulers and some other people. Um because this what you're talking about doing here with zero waste is beyond just what haulers can do. This is also um looking into making it a comprehensive uh package for the town so
that that um all aspects of addressing waste management, recycling um the circular economy, all those pieces are all part of it in terms of how you would create a program which would be bene beneficial um not only to just Ammeris but also be a model to where what other
communities can do um around the Commonwealth. And to that end, um I also know that there's some potential grand funding we can get our hands on for expanding the pay as you throw uh effort and maybe in some other places since you're talking about such a unique idea, this zero waste option, there may be
other places that um we can obtain monies from if not the state than others. And so I look forward to also like trying to identify some of those and help help the town pursue those because it's the second stage of this which is probably the more challenging one which is once you have a roadmap what do you do with it and how do you
implement it and how do you make it work and how do you line up all the pieces that go with it and um I see that as um a significant undertaking which needs to be um well planned. Um, I think that uh Marcy uh Darcy used the words
well-crafted and I would like to echo that that it needs to be wellcrafted. Um, and so I hope that uh to get your input and I hope to um provide you with a product that can help you do that. So in a quick nutshell that is what we're at. But the idea here is really looking
at all aspects of this in a way that would be beneficial to the town of Ammerst and also said there's almost an economic development piece to this in which you're setting an example of what you'd like to support and what you'd like to your town to do to help support the circular economy and make it work
better. So that there's another piece to this as well. >> Well, thank you. Um, one thing that I just wanted to use the word town meeting. We are a city uh known as the town of Ammerst and we actually have a
council and we meet year round, right? So that we don't have an annual town meeting uh deadline for >> Yeah. I meant more more the fiscal year because it rolls over July one, etc. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I just wanted to get that. And the um the other thing to um note is that uh we uh let me just say that this started with
Darcy made reference to was introduced uh um at uh somewhat to the urging of zero waste Ammerst, but I think that some of us were actually primed to the issue already because of our prior
experience. Uh there were four original sponsors um from the council a couple of years ago who were in introduced to it when Shelony Bal who's no longer a counselor.
Um myself, Alicia Walker and Jennifer Ta Jennifer and I are on this committee this year. Um next year I am not going to be on the council. I chose not to run for reelection. So that uh of the
original sponsors there'll be two who are still on the council at the time. The other thing that I just wanted to touch base on to ask you about is that when we started uh you know the recommendation that was made from this
committee uh to the council and the council um adopted was that we work towards an RFP that would u u sort of be the way to reach out to the haulers once
we've designed the program and I assume that that is uh um a part of the process, but I'm not sure that it was specifically mentioned in the bullets that are on the screen. >> Um it is part of the process. It's part of um the final product is to have a a
draft of an RFP that the town can use and then the question is where does it go from there? But yes, that's part of it. >> Okay. And then I'm going to just say one more thing and then turn it to my colleagues on the committee who should let me know if they um would if they
what they would like to add. Um and maybe start with Jennifer who's my was a co-sponsor with me if she's has anything to offer. But our goals um are pretty similar to what you already heard from
Darcy that um we are looking for um something a way of reducing waste that is going into landfills and pays you throw is an effective strategy for doing that. And we don't have to tell you why
because you you know more than we do probably. Uh the second thing is uh composting um for all of the environmental reasons that um are um people look for
composting. And the third is that um we really have what is not um turning out to have been a competitive system when you have private haulers, but we're now
down to u one major hauler that is virtually uh doing all of the providing all of the business for people who want to have pickup at home. And we're hoping that um some kind introducing
some kind of bidding into the process to pick a hauler. Uh for what we've been able to learn from other communities is an effective strategy for trying to um do the best we can for our residents to
have the most coste effective system. Uh Jennifer as co-sponsors, anything you want to add? Uh, thank you, Andy, and thank you, Eric. Um, we're thrilled to have you, and I was, um, I'm very excited by
everything you went over. I did have the question about drafting the RFP, so I'm uh, you know, happy to know that that's also part of what's on the list. Um, and I, uh, also was very happy to hear
about the grant funding that may be available. And I, yeah, I mean, any more. Um, so my question is, is there also funding that might be out there to help us as we implement the program and even as the program is operating? That
was one question and one among the feedback that we've received from residents and there's a number you know many residents are part of zero waste Amherst and I think that there's um you know there's a lot of people in town that of course aren't
aware that this is being discussed >> um but many that are you know have been uh supportive and encouraging you know they really came to the council sponsors Um but there's also you know a number of
people who use um the transfer station and so that has been communicated to us that it's almost like a given they you know that the transfer station remain open and an option. >> Oh yeah you guys have invested a lot in that transfer station as well. So
>> yeah, and I think for those people who use it, a number of whom are on Am I the only person on TSO that doesn't go to the transfer station, you know, they frankly tend to be the most uh ecologically minded and are already, you know, doing all they can.
>> Plus, it's a great place to politic. >> Andy, >> yes, >> at large would agree. Um, so yeah, that was um, so we I I guess getting back to the RFP,
you you would be drafting it, but you might not be with us through issuing it and evaluating the responses. >> The way that um, we wrote the contract, there's an option within it for us to
assist the town with the RFP bid as well. if that's determined, if everybody says, "Yeah, that's the direction we ought to go." So, the the contract that we're signing that we put together with Ammeris, I'm sorry. Um includes um us potent of us assisting the town with the RFP as well, the bidding part. So, um
but that what Paul and I recognized in that is that that's a few months down the road. And to say the details, we don't have the details now, but to say that we we intend to make sure because we don't want any of the momentum and information to be lost. That's for sure. >> Okay. Okay. And in terms of drafting the
bylaw, so you'll look at what we have is a bylaw and then the sponsors have proposed amendments and yeah, so that would be helpful. So you'll provide input as to whether we should refine that further. >> And go ahead.
So part of what you know got also got circular um with the council and why you know we got to the point of you know drafting going to the RFP maybe before the we had refined the
bylaw amendment language was the question was how much is this going to cost and we couldn't answer that without >> you know the RFP so I guess I'm just um a little curious. How would you
So you would do you know the work that's on that bulleted list which is great and then >> create a draft RFP or refined what we have. It may be a whole new bylaw. Um right before issuing the RFP.
>> Yes. That that's the only way to do it is to make sure that there's that the pieces all line up with each other. >> Okay. if if I could jump in on that as well. >> Um, so I think the idea on that the way we structured it was that the bylaw is sort of a check-in with the council. Is
this what you want to do? And if you say yes, it's what we want to do, then we go to the RFP process, right? >> Um, it does just a it's sort of an opportunity for the council to say yay or nay before we keep moving forward. >> Okay. Professor Ryan.
>> Sorry, I'm taking notes here uh as I'm listening. This is uh obviously I think for many of us very encouraging. It was great to have you here, Eric. Um it's been it's been a a long time coming, but it's a complicated thing and I'm excited. Um what I'm hearing from you is
also much of what we've been I think saying. It's been a while actually. our minds have been on other things for the last year at least. Um but um and I wanted just to note first of all that that we made a presentation uh to the council over a year ago on this uh
proposed bylaw change and um I was going to suggest if the if the committee and the chair is is open to it that we just send you the uh the uh uh bullet point uh slide presentation um PowerPoint. Um it just it I think it probably won't tell you anything you don't already
know. Um but it gives you some taste of how we presented this to uh the council and to the public initially um and what the the background briefly was and then what sort of our goals are. So that's something maybe after the meeting if if people are open to that I would ask the
chair to just have that sent to you to look at. Um I had a couple of quick questions. Um first thing you should be aware of in case you don't know it is that come January I mean the timeline here is pretty tight if I understand it. um you started work in November and the expectation is you'll be finishing at
the beginning of April. So we're talking about a fourmonth uh uh timeline is as I see it. Um come January uh 5th. Um actually it won't be probably until at least a week or two later you will have a new TSO committee. Um all of the
people you see here may Andy as he just said is no longer going to be on the council. Bob is no longer going to be on the council. He's stepping away as well. So you'll have an entire new TSO committee. I don't know how much that will impact you and your work. Um but you should be aware that um this
committee will change membership um perhaps quite radically. Um uh and so the question I have is when you would be coming back to TSO uh when when I assume we would be the besides you're working with Paul obviously and with staff primarily but at some point
um I assume you'd come back to us and sort of give us a sense of where you stand and and what's going on or is it more a matter you'll come back when you finally have a draft bylaw. So one question is when will this committee see you again? So, we haven't really talked
about that um in terms of um putting the proposal together. Um well, when when the new TSO forms, we can talk about that. I think um there wasn't a time I I forget if we did we may have put in a a check-in time. Um, what we did was we
put in a check-in time for meeting with like this committee again on the 15th of February, but we did also talk about um checking back in in January um um between the the middle to the end of January when once the council was
reformatted. So, we talked about both. >> Yeah. So, we'll figure it out when the new council gets formed. >> Okay. Um, >> I think the other question I have um is how we get the public and this is a question maybe for the committee and for after um maybe for another time, but how
we get the public involved in this um so that they know what's going on. Um is it something that happens once we actually I mean it seems it would make sense once we actually have a draft RFP. Um which would be it sounds like uh you know uh actually I think you said you're going
to start with the bylaw first. Is that correct? Yeah. So the we get a draft bylaw. Um and that would I guess the question for the colleagues really is what role how do we get the public involved? >> If I can make a quick comment which is
that I think that community engagement is key. So um wherever and what sort of whenever you feel that that's appropriate there's always the opportunity to do a public presentation or something like that to to to engage people. And the idea here is that you
say a lot of people are interested, which is great. So, bring them together. Let's let's make sure that something happens. >> Yeah. I um assume that uh Stephanie Gifin, who does
a lot of the public engagement assistance with town, will be available to help TSO with that part of the process when we get there. Uh Bob Hegner. Yeah. Um, Eric, Eric, this is uh the the only time you're ever going to
see me because I'm George mentioned uh I'm I did not run for reelection. Um I a lot of one of the things that uh people have said I'll echo what what Jennifer said was keeping the um the transfer
station open and operating the way it's operating now for for those who choose to use it. That's very important to a lot of people in town. The other thing that I've heard um concerns about and I share those some some of those concerns
is bears um getting into um you know trash and recycling and uh you know especially food waste um that's put on the curb and so there there obviously is a way to deal
with that if if Pittsfield is dealing with it u But that's something that needs to be addressed um to to to to address that those concerns for people. Um the other thing that um I'm hoping for personally is
that this effort would result in a lower cost to to residents. Um now I mean costs are going to go up obviously between now and then but uh and I don't know what the
what the inflation will be but um you know it it it may not look like it's a lower cost than we're paying now. Um but if but the inflated cost if you will needs to be
lower as low as possible. Um, and that's a big that's a big issue with with a lot of people in town. >> Well, and costs are measured in a number of different ways with regards to cradle to grave. Um, in terms of materials and material use and the whole idea of the
circular economy, when you put things back into the economy, then they're not being you're not paying to dispose of them. So, there are other pieces that go with that. Um, just one real quick aside for this committee. You mentioned bears. years ago, I got this video from somebody and you know the black compost
bins that are given out. They're they're like the size of a large garbage p, but they have the top on them. This bear had picked it up. It put it over its head. It was looking around it. Finally, it just toss it aside. But it was a very entertaining video. But yes, sometimes that can happen that way. So,
>> I actually have a picture that I can share with the committee later that one of my neighbors took of a bear looking into a uh trash bin up the street from us. And it looks when you look at it, it's almost like a person in a bear suit
looking in it. Uh Jennifer. >> Yes. I just wanted to make a request if we promise not to hold you for more than 10 or 15 minutes if if TSO might get maybe a monthly update that would be
great. I would think at least one of us >> will be on TSO. >> So we didn't contract with Eric to come to monthly meetings for him to do the work and I can update you on things. It's just unfair to our consultants don't >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> Okay.
>> I'll follow his lead. So um is there other things that you would like to hear hear from us about what our goals are? And uh I one other thing I might just say is u as far as
bylaw and um policy currently um the we have a bylaw that is um very light on content that essentially says that there's going
to be a a system and most of the regulation is actually in board of health regulations. Yeah. >> Um and uh so how we structure um after a program as far as the uh what
the board of health's role is and what needs to be done in the way of bylaw council policy is something that the council is going to have to work out. Um but um we felt like at least from our side we needed to know whether a program
could be designed that was feasible before you get into that um you know that kind of part of it. So Erica what what do you what are you hoping today and uh to get for additional thoughts or
information? Well, um, first of all, I fully recognized beforehand, but now was emphasized how important this is, how serious Ammerst is about this, and that's great. Um, so that'll actually make I think make this all go even better because you have a lot of caring, thoughtful people who want to see this
happen. Um the other part is that um I really think that with the right approach um if we can create something that is unique and therefore attractive to be looked at as rep replicable around the state or something like that um I
think that that might have value in terms of it being attractive for grant monies and things like that. It's a very awkward time for grant monies as we all know. So, I don't know what is or is not available, but um I'm hoping I do know the pay as you throw grants have um
support for um bags and carts and things like that. So, there's places we can go to get some help with that and other communities have done that. And so, I will be carefully looking into that and talking to Susan about that very much because that's very much in her Baywick. Um um and then lastly, I just um I just
know from my conversations with Paul that um this needs to be wellcraftrafted. This needs to be something that um you you can use as a a guide to move yourself forward and not just a report that sits on a desk. And that is the way I work. I really don't like writing reports that sit on desks.
That doesn't really work for me. I like to have a guide. It's not quite a living document, but it gives you an opportunity to be able to get things done. Um, I don't have too much else that I can add to what we've already said about
where we came from and uh what our our goals are. I do agree with what my colleagues have said about how important the uh transfer station and its current
operation is. And when I forward uh the item to you that the count that the committee has already seen that zero waste ammers provided to me yesterday um with their recommendations. They also got into the questions about
um have the role of the current transfer station for things that um need to be recycled um in an
effective manner. And um how uh what's the best way for people who are u still wanting to have home pickup to have access to the transfer station for um
those limited purposes. And uh I'm sure we'll be hearing uh getting more feedback from zero waste ammer and their thoughts about that topic um as we go. Councelor Ryan. >> So, I just want to conclude my thoughts.
I think this is very very informative. It's very encouraging. Um, I want to thank Paul very much for making it happen before our term ended and thank Eric for coming and and making his presentation. And I think we should let Eric get to work. Um, since he doesn't
have a lot of time, >> if I can just add to that. Um, so the the reason we set April 1st is because if there's any budgetary implications, we wanted to make sure that I was be able to be incorporated into the budget for FY27. Um, and and I think that presentation, George, that you
recommended um that if we can I'm sure if the city can find it, I'll I'll find it. But I think that would be a real good orientation document for Eric to start with. >> I can. >> Yeah, that would be great to have. Absolutely. >> I'll send it to to Andy and Andy will will forward it to you on behalf of the
committee. Yes. And uh I guess my my comment is is that uh I had hoped that while I was still on the council we would have concluded this project but that didn't
happen. But it is encouraging to know that uh it's not dying because uh I as an original advocate for getting this going um will not be on the council after beginning of January.
Um so is there anything else that you'd like to say or committee members? Uh, Jennifer, >> I just wanted to echo what um well, what you and George have said that we're thrilled to have you, not a moment too soon, and you know, we look forward to
working with you. So, >> I'm I'm excited about doing this project. >> So, um, I'll leave it to you as to whether there's anything else you would like to have from the committee today. >> Um, I've been able to, uh, work through,
Paul, to get what I need. um and he sent me some historical information and if I can get that um PowerPoint, that would be great. And any other documents that you think are relevant to this um just to make sure we I I can cite all those and make sure that we know we've got them. They could be appendices or at
least be gathered in one place. So, >> okay. Well, I um I can work with councelor Ryan, make sure that we can think about documents that we have. Um you know there various things that we've
used for presentations one of which is uh also um something that was from an MMA conference when they still called it the MMA conference um couple of years ago they did a pres
there was a session on this very topic and uh the slides that were put together for that um are available to us and we've been using those a lot too or pieces of them. >> That'd be great. >> So, I don't know if you've seen that
presentation. If not, I'll forward that to you. >> I think I saw it in Boston, but I would still love to get it get a copy of it. >> I have it on my computer. I can send it easily. >> Okay.
Um so is there anything else from because otherwise uh we have one other major agenda item that we have to address today so I don't want to let take more of your time if you've got what you need from us today.
>> I I'm good. I appreciate it very much. >> Okay. Well, thank you very much for being here and it was great meeting you this way. >> Take care everyone. Bye-bye. Okay. Bye. Um so for the committee um our obvious
additional thing and u I don't know Paul if you have anything you want to say about it or we would just want to keep going. Uh there was a discussion obviously at the council at the first reading of the transportation parking commission
uh and I and it's calling for us to propose some revisions to um the documents that we provided to reflect u some of the concerns that were raised by the um council. Um, and I think that
that's what our other task of the day is. Uh, but, uh, uh, you know, Paul, are you do you have any suggestions or comments about what you
heard and the direction we're taking with the um, commission proposal? No, I think they had a pretty good conversation. Um, and it's sort of I think the getting more specific when we
use examples. The only thing I was a little confused by was when we start to use examples like what's the difference between a roundabout and a mini roundabout. Um, that's in the eye of the beholder. I think that we might want to be careful about the phrasing that we actually use in terms of what the
council wants to keep uh and wants what it wants to provide to the um to the new committee. And of course that division was um not that the uh commission would not be involved but where the final decision
lay and um that the uh that is very much of the core of what the issue is about. uh because I think the uh what was being
said and uh is that the major um it was described as in the original policy this major layout of streets is something that is uh reserved to the
council and um I think that what we're trying to do is to um at least have the council work with a better system of getting a recommendation and looking for the U
commission to provide that recommendation um in a process that is uh more informed and more efficient because uh I think your point from the very beginning has been there's a lot of
inefficiency in the system uh So with that, what I would like to do is um probably um if if there's agreement from the committee to do this to put a document on the screen for discussion
that we can actually make changes to as we go through or at least see what happened. I sent out um number of items yesterday that um I had asked to put into the packet because it was only in
the SharePoint packet because that's the only one that I can add to um and then councelor Ryan has made some suggested changes to it but it it is so that that would be the document I would like to
put on the screen which is um the what I said you yesterday with councelor Ryan's uh comments. So, if that is okay with you, um let's see if I can find the
I think it's this one. So, let me try it. So, do you have go to the top? Uh, yes. This is the correct document. And everybody, can everybody see it on the screen?
>> Yes. And it's in the online packet, too. >> Okay. So, um, what I'd like to do, and maybe, uh, Council Ryan will help me with this, is to just go through where to stop at
points where there have been changes. And um so we're uh the first section where there were changes um which you see is um councelor Ryan um had made
some suggestions which were um just where I had missed on wording and the speed with which I was trying to do this. But um one of the um issues that had come up was brought up by councelor
Hanniki and I thought was a actually um an interesting and important point which is to make sure that anything that is developed in the way of bylaws um
does get considered um u and it's the responsibility of the commission to uh make sure that it's uh considering all of the relevant material. So that's
what number four is about is to put into that general charge point and uh what appears uh on the screen in um blue are corrections or additions that were
offered by councelor Ryan. So uh councelor Ryan, you have your hand up. You want to do you have comments you'd like to offer? >> Yeah. So what what um I thought I was trying to do and I hope this is clear to everybody. It wasn't clear to me originally when I read the original
language that what this is saying in my understanding is that when this body is dealing with when it's doing its work it is uh asked required assumed that it will consider any relevant zoning or general bylaw or council policy. They're
not actually um being asked to uh uh offer suggestions about zoning or bylaws or council policy. What this simply says is that when you're doing your work on a something that's been assigned to you or something within your purview, you should take into consideration any
relevant zoning or general bylaw council policy. Now, that was probably obvious to everybody, but it wasn't to me. That's my understanding of what this is trying to say, and I hope the language here makes that clear. And part of this is that I have had conversations with council Hanniki about
this uh fairly recently. So that she is uh looking to bring back to the council a proposal on uh dealing with the street light issues that she's been
concerned about for several years and was in our original carryover memo. And it's one item that we did not address um that came in the carryover memo that we received was the lighting policy. Um where it was left at the last council
session was that um Paul and Guilford were going to propose a lighting policy and uh you know with all of the work that they have to do that it just didn't they didn't get to
it. So it sort of got frozen and I think that it is uh uh councelor Hanukki's intention based upon my conversations with her to try and move this forward and she recognizes that when you um look
at the um experience in other communities and the MMA's best uh practices memo that um some communities deal with this is a matter of zoning and some deal it with
it in other kinds of uh in their general ordinances or bylaws so that um it's unclear as to where it might come up and this was a way of just covering that and if it's done as a
council policy as opposed to um a zoning and general bylaw that it would come up it would cover all. So, um, is number four as, uh, currently written with, uh,
the corrections and additions from councelor Ryan acceptable? Uh, I'm not hearing anybody saying no, so I'm going to assume that the answer to that is yes. Um, council Ryan, you
want to talk about number five? So, I think there's a fair amount of of of I don't know disagreement or at least some we heard at the council that uh how many reports do we want? How frequent? Um uh and also where should they where
should the the uh the language lie? Should it lie in this document or should it lie in the charge document? So, this is just my hack at it. Um I felt that that um monthly reports might be too much. I thought an annual report um is
not going to be all that useful because there there's a lot that's happening. I would we hope there'll be a fair amount of things happening on this commission. So I just suggested quarterly reports and I also thought let's put all the language about reports specifics about reports and what we're expecting in this
document and in the charge document simply say that you know there'll be reports line item but it'll simply say you know refer to this document for the specifics. It could be flipped. We could do it the other way. Um, but perhaps the first question for all of us is what do
you think about reports? Do you want quarterly reports, monthly reports, an annual report? Do you want quarterly reports and an annual report? Um, obviously I'm just giving you my my take on it. So, that's my question for all of you. What What do you want in the way of reports,
>> Jennifer? >> Um, I think quarterly reports is good. I think monthly is too frequent. I think quarterly reports is perfect. I don't know that we need an annual report. I
mean maybe yeah the final quarter they want to attach the previous three. I don't know what would be in an annual report that would be that would build upon four quarterly reports but I could be convinced. But I
think um I think having it uh I think this format is good to have the reports you know quarterly reports being in the charge and then to have a little bit more detail here but I was concerned that you know
initially it would be like the board of license commissioner where you know a report appears in the packet it's not even a presentation I think that's fine for the board of license commissioners but I think for this commission uh quarterly reports would be uh just
the right timing. And of course if the uh commission makes a recommendation to the council on a matter that comes as a separate item anyway
>> and if there's a council >> right or two on the commission if something important comes up at a monthly meeting that would be could be reported back >> during a council. I assume that if the uh council makes if the commission makes
a recommendation um for the restructuring of a street um that whenever it's made that recommendation, its recommendation will be communicated as such and that that
would be an additional form of reporting but it would be very specific and uh I I think that that's also covered in this document already. So is there any >> So if we we should scroll down so people
can see the full the language change is more than just what you see on the screen. >> Yeah. Um thank you. So, >> I mean, we're not trying to burden this body with with multiple reports, which means burdening staff, and I'm I'm sure
that's a concern for for Paul and for staff is that having to generate even more reports. So, that's my only concern. Um, and I don't know if Paul has any thoughts on this one way or the other. Um but um that's that's the one issue I have. But
I think there is a desire for people to hear what's going on consist because this does touch on issues that constituents feel strongly about and we often hear a lot about it. So I don't think we'd like to hear about it at the end of the year. Um on the other hand, every month seems perhaps too too much.
So that was kind of the logic behind this. >> So yeah, I agree with the quarter. I think you and Jennifer hit it. um quarterly seems to be the appropriate cadence for a report and I think if we get this this a system in place where
you know they can just fill in the blanks almost you know request time met and then it doesn't become a burden but they have and I think the the sort of um failsafe mechanism is that you do have a counselor who's been who at every council meeting will be can update the
council if there's something of higher importance that they want to draw to the attention of the council. That's the That's the main reason for having a counselor on the on the committee. I guess I don't understand really what this last sentence means, though. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question, Paul.
Um I think it was kind of like a little escape hatch that, you know, and if we ever want anything, we can ask for it. >> Yeah. Well, this is Yeah. This is a body of your creation, so I think you can do that. Um >> no matter what. We don't have to have a sentence like this in it.
>> Yeah. Um that's a fair I don't know what other think. Yeah. >> I mean since they are as as Andy pointed out in the document as it exists um there is language that basically says when you do make a recommendation you have to provide us with you know
basically a report. >> So perhaps this sentence is not necessary. I I had a similar thought as I wrote it. I thought you know um this is kind of like a CYA uh addition. Maybe it's not needed. >> That's your call.
Jennifer, did you have anything more? >> No. Does I think that's an excellent suggestion about having maybe a format that staff or the chairman of the commission, chairperson can just complete because I don't I don't think reports have to be long and I don't even
know that we want to read a long report. So, >> would you leave the sentence in I guess is the other question. >> Yeah. Do people want the sentence or not? Yeah. >> The one where the In addition, an interim report providing
written recommendations to council and town manager may be requested at any time because I think that written recommendations are really covered elsewhere, aren't they, George? they are. But I guess I was thinking of you know something could come up that
you know is is not a actual um you know request from a resident or from staff or anything like that but where we would just like to have their input and we could reach out to them and say you know we would like you to uh give us your
thoughts or recommendations on issue X Y or Z. Um I think stuff that comes to them in the regular course of business is covered well in this I believe. Um and we now are asking for quarterly reports just as a matter of fact. So I guess the only thing I could imagine
would be that you know in course of council discussion or or whatever uh some issue comes up maybe related to you know pedestrian safety, bike safety, speeding, god knows what and we think gee we'd really like to have TPC weigh in on this. Um, and so the question is
how how does that work? And maybe that would just be a request, but it's not a specific issue. It's just really asking for their um their input, but that that was the only thing I could think of. >> Yeah, I just put a comma after addition. Uh, >> Bob has his hand up. I know.
>> Yeah, Bob. >> Yeah, I was going to say that this just seems to me to be unnecessary. Um, I think we can always the council can always request information from the TPC uh at any time. Um, and I think that
this doesn't really say um, you know, I I don't know. I I I just think that it's unnecessary to put this in. I just think quarterly reports are fine. And then
as things arise, we'll see, you know, we we'll see how they they arise. But I don't see any reason why the council couldn't request information or request that the TPC look into something they could do so through the council representatives.
>> So, uh, how do we want to deal with this? have every bit >> I I feel like I'm channeling my inner Lauren Goldberg, which is you just try to cover every single possible contingency. Um, so maybe she's rubbing
off on me in that way, but I agree with Bob. It it's probably not necessary. >> Does anybody like to have it stay in raise their hand? >> See, nobody raising their hand. So, um, >> we can take it out. Okay.
>> Okay. Um >> just a typo, right? It's a typo, that's all. Yeah, this was uh the question is u defining what what do we mean by requests and uh so I did sloppy writing
by with a spelling of procedure but uh the go my goal is pretty clear people comfortable with this addition Jennifer has a hand up. I don't know if that's residual or not. >> Yeah, I'm
general question. Um, have we decided that street lighting is under the purview of this commission? >> It's coming up. >> Okay. >> Yeah, we'll get there. >> Okay. So um trying to see where we have the next set
of changes because this this is just the original. Okay. There was a lot of uh concern about how what we meant with uh
the wording of the utility structures thing uh were said except for um things in the prior paragraph. And so trying to clarify that language, um, I tried to move
things around a little bit and put the utility piece into a separate section all on its own and uh, pull it pull it away from uh, getting confused
since it's such an important point and just have a utility structure section. So that was why I did that piece. So if again if if somebody uh
has a problem with anything that we're talking about, please speak up because I'm going to have to we just have to keep moving to make sure we get all of our documents uh back to the council for Monday's meeting.
Uh so then we get this is where we had a lot of problems and I think that um you what we were trying to do is um
uh by pulling out the placement of utility structures and just getting into a separate section is clear. There was a lot of questions about um what is meant by traffic calming measures which was to
include speed humps or speed bumps but many roundabouts um and splitter islands. I think that the point that was being made at the council meeting is that those are really um ma are road
redesign as opposed to something that is um just a uh that is a traffic calming measure which uh we are designating for the
commission to make a recommendation to the town manager about. So, that was what what those changes uh were attempting to do. And I hope that that's clear. And of course, this sentence is no
longer needed because it had to referred to the utility structures. And that's why that struck. >> So Andy, if I may, the way it was presented to me by one counselor um in terms of the changes we're suggesting
here was that when you're making a a a change to the streetscape that, you know, u like a splitter island or a roundabout, it's something that residents notice and immediately have some reaction to her thoughts about. um
as opposed to some of the other uh changes which are important but less less in noticeable less of a and so that was why the thought was maybe separate them out. Um, and so when you're doing a what broad Roley says is a major change
quote unquote um like a you know um a splitter island or roundabout that would be something that ultimately the council should should weigh in on but the others could be uh treated by TPC. Does anybody uh
have concerns about this section which is major roadway and sidewalk redesigns which is a matter that um is being retained by the town council but upon
recommendation uh TPC would be holding a public hearing and making a recommendation to the council, but it's a council action.
And uh so anybody who's uncomfortable with this change, Council Ryan, >> well, I think Bob has his hand up. >> I I would always going to I'm I'm I'm fine with this change. I was just going to suggest in adding uh including you
know after including but not limited to add that uh which is sort of a a way of we don't have to list everything that might possibly come up in the future just including but not limited to
>> Mhm. That just gives us flexibility. Mhm. I guess it really does need a comma before after the word including take that. So is that acceptable? >> That's fine.
>> Okay. So, um, moving. >> Well, if I may, Andy, um, Paul had raised some concerns about precision of language, which I thought was an excellent point. He's not saying anything, so maybe he doesn't have any
concerns at this point, but I do want to at least give him the opportunity. uh if he is this language clear enough? Does he has I mean he mentioned I think in passing many roundabouts earlier. Um is is is this acceptable to him. Does he think this is going to create more problems than than it solves or does he
have no view at all on this one way or the other? Well, the way the way it reads now, I guess because main roundabouts is in the common parlance now, we should mention it because that's what people are. Um,
>> yeah. >> But I guess the question is >> on other sort of traffic calming measures. >> Yeah. which of course is in the prior section that it's too vague. In other words, it would
be better to have some examples or Yeah, I don't know. One question I have is in the the the the the permanent the uh major changes section, we only talk about we only give
examples of roads. We don't give examples of sidewalk redesigns. Mhm. >> Um I I don't know it, Paul. Are there any sidewalk major sidewalk redesigns? >> Yeah, there will be. There is one that's
in pending on West Street where they want to re realign the sidewalks. >> Okay. >> Um that would require the council approval, but it's it's a not significant, but it's but it's a it's a re it's a realignment for sure. >> Notice it does say all major Bob. It
says all major roadway and sidewalk redesigns. Yes, I noticed that. But we only include examples of roads, >> right? Right. >> We don't ex, you know, so >> we could put in maybe major sidewalk
redesigns or something like that. Sidewalk. >> Major. >> Yeah, >> it seems to be saying the same thing twice. >> Yeah, it's saying the same thing, >> I think. Yeah. And so, so speed humps are going to be
with the committee and mini roundabouts are with the council. Is that what we're saying? >> That's what it looks like at the moment. >> Yes. >> And sidewalk redesigns are with the council, but crosswalks are with the TPC.
>> That's correct. >> Okay, that's super clear. any we're we're open to suggestions from anybody about how to to uh to cut how to cut this up, but um as I said, I think it's in large part it seems to be driven by
how noticeable the change is to our to the public um and what you hear from the public. You you probably don't hear too often people talking about a crosswalk. Um, I mean they want a crosswalk, but if you put one in, um, but if you start
making, you know, they drive through and all of a sudden, you know, it's blocked off because we're putting in a splitter island. Um, but I agree. Speed humps that, you know, I don't know, >> huge. >> Just seems it seems odd that I mean, in interpretating interpreting this
>> Yeah. >> um policy if if there were a proposal that was brought for a new crosswalk >> Yeah. or I mean that seems like a sidewalk redesign. It's just odd to have it
that one part of a sidewalk redesign pulled out for the council. Um >> that's odd to me, but >> and I think probably the most intrusive thing for most people would be speed humps if they're installed somewhere.
That's usually the most controversial thing, >> at least for Lincoln, that was a big big issue, you know. I think people more frequently want speed hubs than don't because it's a matter of uh
bring bring speeding under control. university seems to have adopted that as their major strategy is. We've uh observed of trying to keep
speed limit speed down. Well, I'm not sure we can make it. I don't think we're going to resolve this. I'm not sure the council can resolve this. Perhaps what we're going to do is just live with it and it's somewhat uh somewhat arbitrary distinctions and then over time we can change it. It's not
it's not difficult to change this. Um and unless somebody has some clear distinction uh that we could apply, I'm afraid we're going to have some sort sort of gray areas. It's like uh you know uh some teams are on the bubble I
guess and it's you just got to make you got to make the call and >> you're you're praying for Notre Dame. I can tell. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's an obvious Notre Dame should be in but um I Yeah. So I think that's where we're at. >> Maybe this is a reason Northampton just
gave it all back to the decide. >> Exactly. Exactly. I agree with George. I think let's just lay something down and, you know, we'll see how the dust settles. >> We'll probably have the same discussion
at council and it may who knows how long it'll drag on, but we'll try to try to push it through if we can. >> Yeah. >> I think the pivotal question is going to be, do you want speed humps in the council or do you want speed humps in the TPC? That'll be the fundamental question.
>> Where to put speed humps? Yeah. Mhm. >> And if the uh council wishes to make that change, >> yeah, they can. >> So, are we in agreement that uh
this is our recommendation with accepting all of changes that have been proposed? >> Yeah. Um, are you going to go down to section four? >> It would say the >> Are you going to are you going to review
changes to section four >> down at the bottom >> further down the document? >> I think I think you're just missing TPC in B. PPC could decline delegation of
authority. >> It should be inserted is what you're saying that it's missing there in 4B. Um we have uh the town manager, we have the board of license commissioners, the department heads, but we don't have TPC, >> right? Um, and the point is it they're allowed to decline, right?
>> Yeah, >> fair enough. That that should be inserted. >> So after, >> okay, so >> license commissioner license commissionals, then you put a comma
and >> or put it after the town manager. Right. Thank you, Athena. We missed that. So you would put in TPC too. >> Yeah, I would just include it in this list of department heads, town manager,
department heads, board of licensed commission owners. Add TPC in there. The easiest place to do it is after the comma after town manager the second comma after you know department heads under the supervision of the common the town manager
>> the TPC put in there and >> that's it my cough Yeah, thank you. >> And if it's okay with the committee is sometimes when we accept changes, uh, so I suggest sending this to the council as
a track change in clean version and sometimes when we accept the changes, there's some grammatical or formatting. You know, I I noticed there were some commas missing in a few sections. So, I just want to make sure that it's okay that the committee will let us do that
when we accept the changes and send it to council >> or we can accept the changes and I can accept the changes and and make sure the committee's aware of them. >> Should we call should we should it be the transportation and
parking commission write it out and not have ste TPC? >> At the beginning of the document we created >> we do. Okay. We did the usual where the first time it's used then we used TP it
says okay and >> so we've designated that >> yeah yeah >> um >> I'm certainly comfortable with allowing Athena to correct any scrivener errors any typos or anything like that >> okay thank you
>> that's not a problem >> so um what I would suggest that we do so that we can move this along to the document and be done meet our timeline is that um if we vote that we propose um
that this is our new proposed policy that we that I send this document as it is right now to Athena. we allow her to make any additional scrier changes that are appropriate
and I'll leave it to Athena to u decide how to handle it. Usually what we do is we send the council both the um
document showing the changes so that they can see what has been done since they last looked at it and the clean copy. Uh but that I'll I'll leave that to
Athena's discretion if that's agreeable to the committee and just ask for a motion. Uh that the committee proposes the change document as discussed
meeting on December 4. um recommends that uh that version to the council. So >> I so move >> second. >> Okay, there's motion that's been made and seconded.
Take a vote. Uh Bob Pegner >> I. >> Councelor Ryan >> I. >> Uh Council Lord >> I >> and Jennifer Tub. >> Yes. >> And I'm Yes. So it's 5 to zero and um
with that said I will forward this at the conclusion of the meeting as it is right now to Athena and uh she can uh move forward. U me see if I can stop share for a moment.
Uh so uh the next item that we need to talk about is any changes to the uh I think that maybe it makes sense to go to the uh
committee charge for the um TPC. So, let's see if we have that one available. >> Are you using Mandy's version, Mandy? >> Yeah, I'm looking to see if I have it here. Even thought I did, but
>> I can bring it up. I have it. Uh, Mandy's version would be the appropriate one, I think. I don't think we have any other version. I made some Yeah. >> Oh, um, I think this Yeah, this is Mandy's that
I have on the screen now. So another question about uh that you had raised actually earlier about um lighting policy. I think that we know that we have a counselor who's
very strongly u advocating that issue and um so we want to include that as a criteria for selection of residents. Um since we're saying that people uh the
three resident members doesn't mean that they that the three people are going to be found who are going to have all of these but it just gives criteria to the town manager when he recommends appointments to this
commission. Jennifer, what's your thought? Well, I was just um circling back to my uh question I raised earlier. We have decided that lighting is within
the purview of this commission. I mean, it doesn't seem like a natural fit necessarily to me. I could you know in ter so we're saying in terms of pedestrian and driver safety
we think the street should be properly lit that's how it street lighting comes under this because I don't think that's something we initially thought would be part of transportation and parking and I guess >> transportation advisory committee does
talk about lighting Um, and I think that there's uh maybe a tension that is going to be coming to play here, but frequently their concern is that
there is sufficient lighting. >> Exactly. Not that there's too much lighting >> and uh so it's it goes it can cut both ways.
Um, and I think that that's why in the last document, if a policy is developed and accepted by the council in the future about either zoning general bylaw policy
regarding the kind of lighting and the intensity of lighting that uh that should be considered by the commission. Well, of course, we want the commission to follow any bylaws or
policies adopted by a council. Um, but somebody's got to actually apply it. It would seem to make sense me to leave it in the commission, but if others disagree,
please speak. I wouldn't want the commission to be I mean so we're going to say to the commission we want you to as it comes up street by street or we want you to develop a lighting plan
for the town. I mean that could take up a lot of their time. I would think if someone came to them with a street lighting request or proposal. Um I mean sometimes I would assume in most cases it's very specific.
Um there's a light out on my street. It's really dangerous. I'd like the light replaced and and they they could respond to that. They could make a suggestion or whatever based on Right. But if someone says, you know, the the town's, you know, we have too many lights and I can't see the
stars or they have health consequences for my children. Um, they would say we don't have a policy and they would look to the town council to uh to to guide them. They they they certainly, I don't think, would be expected to craft their
own policy. And I agree with Jennifer. I hope they wouldn't feel like it's their job to sort of make a recommendation about a policy about that. they would simply turn to the council and ask the council uh you know we can't judge this because there's no policy by which we can do it. But if someone comes to them
and says, "Look," as is the case on my street, um is extremely dangerous um whenever I back out because a light that has been there for years has never been replaced. And I could imagine going to this commission and saying, you know, I'd like this light replaced. Um and
that's very specific and at least the the current policy would suggest that they could make uh they could make a decision about that. Um >> yeah, >> go ahead. Yeah, I I would like not to see those words, health consequences of
artificial light at night. I just don't see how that is within the responsibility or purview of this commission. >> It does stand out. I find it jarring. Um, we could you could also create a phrase for somebody who, you know, and
someone who is concerned about the safety consequences of too little light >> in and I would be somebody in that group. So, I think I I appreciate councelor Heni's concern for this. She's going to pursue a bylaw on this. You
know, you know, good luck. That's great. But I don't I'm not comfortable putting this language in here. Um it seems too specific and too it seems to be special pleading. >> Yeah. as opposed to pedestrian and bicycle
transportation that you >> the health consequences. >> What about the health? >> I don't see how that applies. I mean, I realize public safety is health, >> right? It's >> but it just doesn't it's just really
like fish out of water to me in this commission's charge. Well, the question the way that it's placed here is, is that a criteria that should be provided to the town manager in
selecting people? >> Right. Right. >> I disagree with that, too. I don't >> Yeah, it seems way too specific and arbitrary and uh you know, it's I'm not against it. I mean, I but it seems not really not very helpful to him. And I
could think of lots of other specifics that I could like to put in here. Um like the health consequences of me running over my neighbor because I can't see them um when I'm backing out of my driveway. Um would be my first thought.
>> So Paul, you have your hand up. >> So So two things um one I mean you could just say street lighting and just just like parking street lighting. uh if you want to if you want to name it, you don't have to talk about health consequences. It just so if someone says
I really know a lot about street lights and wattage and stuff like that. >> And there's one other sort of fix that needs to happen is the member it's the on on the fourth bullet. It's member of the commission uh for persons with disabilities. I think that's the name of
it. The name of that committee. >> Thank you. >> It's commission for persons with disabilities. >> Thank you. Yeah, I think that uh that change may have happened.
See, >> could Athena make that change now as we're we're talking just so we see it. >> This is Andy's document. >> Yeah. >> Oh, okay. Sorry. >> I'm not sure we should get capitalized here. >> The P in persons does.
>> Yeah. >> Um, okay. You got to do that. >> Okay. So, do people want street lighting or do they want to just leave it as it is? >> Oh, >> yeah. >> You want to just say street lighting?
>> I don't know. >> Or take an expert. How about expert on speed bumps? An expert on, you know, I mean, we can think of being expertise in a thousand one things. >> Um, why are we focusing on this? Um
uh yeah I don't know. So what um is the consensus of the committee and I'm going to and if is the consensus of the committee to take out this suggested change
and uh if uh councelor Hani wishes to offer it as an amendment at the council meeting that's of course her right to do so. >> Right. Is there anybody who disagrees with
taking it out? Okay, seeing not I'm going to take care of that one by removal. Um, >> I mean, my only thought and I I'll try to be brief is that, you know, I know
that she will almost certainly move to reinsert this language if we took Paul's suggestion of just including street lighting, which is a perfectly, you know, I mean, that is both a health and safety issue and it is something that will come before this body. Um, and I
could imagine Paul having somebody coming, you know, applying and they happen to have an background or expertise in that area. Um, I guess the question is would it could we compromise here and at least put just put street lighting without the health safety
consequences in the hopes that that would satisfy councelor Heni and we wouldn't have to spend about five minutes or more maybe more um dealing with a amendment and then the discussion is are people open to that as a compromise?
>> Yeah, that would be fine for me. >> Okay, >> I I'm okay with that. I mean, she still may go ahead and insert, who knows? But I think it would be a gesture on our part to meet her concern without u because I think I don't hear anyone thinking that the the the full language
is acceptable. I think it's way too much. So Andy, we're suggesting just put just take out the language and put street lighting. >> Yep. >> I have just done that. Thank you. >> So, uh, >> thank you.
>> Thank you. >> When I send it to Athena, I'm going to remove the comment box. I'm not going to do that now. >> Sure. >> So, So I think there's only one other change that she proposes which is near the
bottom under uh additional uh in additions if we scroll down just a bit more. Um yeah we see it there. Yeah, this is uh >> and I don't know about anybody else, but I have some real questions about this.
We need to talk about this. I I really this makes me really nervous and maybe I'm just misreading it or misunderstanding it. Um, but and I know she's not here to argue for it, but I interpret this as
at least as it's written as this commission sort of weighing in on what DPW is planning to do in any given year in terms of paving plans and sidewalk plans. And I don't quite
understand. I don't think that's a good idea. Or maybe somebody needs to convince me that it's a good idea. Um, so or maybe I'm misreading it, but I don't quite I I'm What is this saying? What What is this? What is this? What
powers or what what what is this saying, >> Jennifer? So, I'm comfortable with this commission making recommendations or providing on trafficcoming plans. I mean, that seems like part of why we're creating it. Um,
I guess to the extent that DPW is represented on the commission, you know, DPW, I believe, is creates the yearly street paving plans. >> Right. Right. So they that the DPW
representatives would bring that to the commission. I'm just trying to think how this would play out. And the commission would provide feedback. Is that what's >> That's what it says. Yeah. >> Yeah. Is intended here. >> And just to the manager, not to the council is what it says. Yeah.
Paul, what are your thoughts on this? >> So I mean, we're getting into maintenance questions now. That's what this is. Paving is is part of maintenance program. I was like, and you know, we come to the council to get funding. We report on what's being paved, but the decision on what gets
paved, we really do leave to the to the town engineer and and their professional judgment. You get into I want this street paved or that street paved. It it I've seen it too much too often, especially in cities form of government with um mayors and counselors. It
becomes just a political football. And I think we're we are a town that res relies on our professional engineers and staff to make those kinds of day-to-day decisions on maintenance new projects, you know, like installing new things
like splitter islands or traffic comes. I think those are much those are more significant, but um because those are more public policy things. But this, you know, every year there are things changing and um and I I think, you know,
I'm hoping that when we make our presentation to you and, you know, hopefully in February of next year, you'll see what, you know, what what we're looking for and what what kind of investment needs to be made into our roads. So, I think this is beyond the pale is what I'm saying.
>> Your agreement taken out, >> even the traffic calming Well, I I think that those those things are part of it already. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I I I think we should >> it's it's in the three bullets above. It
says traffic calming. >> Yeah. Okay. I'm I'm fine taking it out. >> I think we should take this out. I agree with with Paul that this is really maintenance. I mean, as someone who fielded a lot of complaints about >> Yeah.
about the roads. It's it is it really comes down to, you know, there's a priority. You know, we have so much money. We have so many issues and, you know, the tech, you know, leave it to the professionals to make their judgment
on what the highest priority is. Well, let me play devil's advocate for a second if you don't mind. I know we don't have a lot of time, but I'm just trying to understand what the rationale was behind this proposal. What did Mandy and perhaps other counselors expect?
And the best I could come up with was that in any given year, Jason, whatever comes up with a plan, and way this is was written would be he'd bring that to this body. Um, and then they would weigh
in on this to Paul. But my thought was that that also would mean it's public. Mhm. >> So, uh, that allows for better or worse, and I'm not sure which it is, but it allows the public then to come and comment on the plan. Um, and I I'm sure
many would say, "What about my street?" D, but it has that public element. And that's the only thing I could think of that this was perhaps meant to provide for. Um, but that was that was my best guess on
this was that it it would every year in theory or whenever a plan was being presented there would be a a meeting for the public to come and say their piece if they wanted whereas right now they don't. They they can't. Um the plan is
presented and um that's you know that's it. May maybe um if that's the goal, if it's the goal is to promote public awareness of the paving plans and the and the priorities, maybe that and that last the
this last bullet >> um foster public awareness on >> uh paving strategies, transportation s just add add something in. You >> put it in there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I could see putting it in there.
>> Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. >> So, >> I mean, isn't it isn't it the the the council's re responsibility to look at these paving plans and say, "Wait a minute, you know, I think this road needs to be
>> on the list." Um I I think it's you know >> you know the problem that I have with it I because I see your point but in the end uh somebody's got to take responsibility
for how much money do we have? What is the most traveled street? what is the one that u is going to have the greatest effect on the largest number of people u for repairing and uh what kind of
deterioration can take place if we don't address the issues now those are all professional judgments and uh >> and Jason has presented us a plan that spells out the criteria they use and and
it's it's pretty detailed so it's not just, you know, trust me, I'm an expert. Um, it's here's the criteria we use, here's the the pe the money we spend to get these, uh, you know, roads, you know, surveyed and rated. Um, and here's
the charts and so on. Um, so it's a pretty thorough professional analysis if we start Yeah, I don't it seems like a dangerous path to start saying, well, let's let's have this commission start weighing in on it. Um and while the
public is should have an opportunity to complain or or present their brothers, our view has been traditionally I think that u we trust the experts. Um what people often ask is they just like to know what the list is. They'd like to see you know and Jason has provided that
to some extent. Um you know here are the roads most in need of repair and and here's the priority list and if you give me enough of money I can do it. But if you don't give me enough money, I can only do a little bit of it. And and then you ask me to make I'm gonna have to
make tough decisions um that often dep are dependent as much on money as they are on actual need. So yeah, I'm not sure we want to get into this. I think we want to trust the experts
as long as it's transparent and you know, I mean that this commission could have an a place for people to come. I mean, they could present the plan or they could talk about it. Um, but yeah, I don't think they should be given recommendations. >> Let's hear from Jennifer and then Bob.
>> Sorry, >> Jennifer. >> Um, yeah, I mean, the list could possibly be brought to the commission, you know, with it um if it an explanation of how the streets were selected. I mean, I'm just thinking of example, North Hadley Road, which is
down the street from me. It's a little street and two years ago I two or three years ago it was on the repaving list and there were people that asked is this little street like nobody drives on why is it being repaved and Paul had an ex gave us an explanation I think in TSO
which was that after Fieldstone went in they were putting in parking meters so it was actually a revenue generating street for the town and so that was very helpful um to be able to share that with um constituents but yeah I I'm a little
torn too, but I think, you know, we want if we invite the public to have input into which streets are paved. No, the majority of people are not going to be happy because we can only do so many. So, I always feel like if you're inviting input and you really can't take
the input, then that's not really fair. Yeah, I was I was going to say um something similar which is uh you can create a plan today u but as Paul can attest things are going to
change um and you're going to have to change that plan going forward because there's more deterioration here or whatever um and and or things are unexpected. And so that's one reason that I mean I've always wanted to see
like a 10-year plan for everything, but you can't do that because, you know, like I think it was wasn't it um uh I can't think of the name now, but the the road by that goes in front of uh
Applewood um that wasn't on the list, but suddenly got on the list because it deteriorated. I think it was Lenin Way maybe. >> No, it was the main road there. >> West Bay Road. >> West Bay. West Bay. >> Anyway, um but the point is we have to
leave it up to Jason and and DPW and Paul to figure out what we need to do with, you know, today, you know. Um and we can't, you know, we can put it on a list, but it may not be two years from now. It may be a year from now, maybe 5
years from now before we get to that because of other things that happen. Just people need to understand that you can't promise you're going to pave a road 5 years from now or two years from now because we don't know.
Um anyway, >> yeah, I agree. Should we leave it as is? I >> I would recommend leaving it as as is and then, you know, >> if people want to get into paving, they
can get into, you know, we can fight it out with the with the council. So Andy, before we get to reports, if if you if you're willing, I would like to propose and I didn't get a chance to to edit put it in this document. I'm sorry, but I
wanted to propose an additional bullet. Um, I feel strongly, I'm just going to describe it briefly before I spell out the language, but I would like to see some kind of statement uh among these bullets that specifies
uh bike and pedestrian safety. And I felt I'd also like to have the safe streets to safe routes to schools program mentioned. But the current document talks about in the next bullet bicycle and pedestrian facilities.
But I would very much like this body to for instance in Northampton they have a subcommittee which is focused on uh bikes and pedestrians and I think a lot of people have been involved traditionally in our transportation uh advisory committee
have been cyclists um and um my impression reading this is that it seems to have fallen out of the of the mix and I may be alone in that or maybe in the existing language you could
justify what I would like to put in as a separate bullet. But I would like to put language in that makes specific reference to bike and pedestrian safety and potentially even referencing the safe routes to schools program.
Before I put that language or ask that language to be put in, do people agree with me generally that this would be a good thing? Do they feel like it's something that we should emphasize? Is it missing in the current document? That's my impression, but I don't know.
>> So, you're do but your essential thing is that you want to do something more than just foster public awareness. >> Yes, I would like them to. I mean, we have we still have not adopted a bike and pedestrian plan. Um, there is a lot
of money available in safe routes to schools. Um, and one of the things that I would like to leave as a legacy um, uh, is that we are more conscious of, um, pedestrian and bike safety and encouraging people to find alternate
ways to, uh, move about as much as possible. Um, but particularly making routes to schools safer. It's expensive and maybe it'll take many years, but um, and I just like it to live somewhere. Um, and this is would seem to be the
right place for it to live. >> So, what is your proposed language? >> Well, are people Jennifer has a hand up. We should perhaps hear from her and then if people are open to it, I'll propose some language. But yeah, >> Jennifer, >> I I agree with George. And not to beat a
dead horse, but I think that is very relevant more so than street lighting I except to the extent that street lighting we need more street lighting for safety. But I think that bike and pedestrian safety and also as
George said there there's a lot of fun there is funding there. So that seems this commission seems like a very appropriate body to address that concern which is top of mind I think on the public's
mind. >> So you have language George. >> Yeah. If you if you bear with me Andy I'll read it out u but if you'd insert this bullet. It would begin, advise the town council and the town manager on all matters
related to bike and pedestrian safety. >> I realize I'm not doing well, but >> that's Yeah. So, advice town manager, right? and at common health management on all matters related to bike and pedestrian safety in
particular promoting the Commonwealth's quote safe routes to schools unquote program. >> Sorry, I I just didn't get a chance to put this in the document. Um I apologize, but um
and I guess as Andy's typing it, I mean, one question is whether that's too specific. I just really think that's an important program. I'd like it to be mentioned. I think it's critical in sort of this larger perspective of bike and pedestrian safety. Um, that's why I put
it in. But my main point is that I would like them to know that they're very much empowered to weigh in on matters related to bike and pedestrian safety. Um so advice of town council and town
manager on all issues >> all matters. >> What? >> Okay fine. related to bike and pedestrian safety. And then this is the extra in particular promoting
the Commonwealth safe routes to schools program. Yeah, thank you. >> That's a semicolon for what it's worth at the end. >> Yeah, >> I'll be up in a second. >> Yep. So,
so, >> and there's an an S after the apostrophe. So, what do people think about this? I mean, I just I don't know. I mean, we'll see what the council thinks, but you're willing to put it in at least and see if it if it flies. I just felt when I read it, I thought,
where's bike and pedestrian safety in here? And um this is really something we hear a lot about. there are fair number of people very active in this and um I thought of the Northampton experience and also tax experience with with uh you
know people involved in in biking. Um, so anyway, >> is there anybody who objects to the addition? >> Paul, >> I I just I just I just caution you. This is a lifelong docu or a document. This
this comment they'll say schools safe to school program could terminate tomorrow. I just don't think you should reference that. I think just put a period or a comma at the end of the word safety. and just leave it there. Yeah. >> And trust them to be aware of and to
obviously do their homework in terms of what's out there and and to explore it and blah blah blah blah. >> Of course. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. That's I wondered about that. >> Yeah, I agree. I mean particularly there may be other things that crop up that we don't you
know we don't want to include >> good and I'm sure people who are active and engaged in this area will certainly bring all this to them and talk to them and so >> Oh yeah well it's you know that's good okay good
>> anything else is there anybody who's not comfortable with the sedition. Seeing no hands going up. >> Jennifer Jennifer has a hand up. >> Jennifer's hands is >> No, no, this is just I have a hard stop at 12. So, I didn't know if we were
going to be voting on this. >> Um, and we have one other thing that we need to get to. So, we >> we did it before by consensus. I don't know that we need a vote. Or did did we vote? I can't remember now. My god, I'm losing it. Um, did we vote? I guess we
did. We did vote, didn't we? >> We should vote. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, so the motion would be to uh recommend the uh change. >> Well, we still we still have one change, I'm afraid. I'm sorry, Jennifer, but >> I was going to say,
>> yeah, right there. >> And the suggestion was to simply have the one sentence. Um, if you're accept if you're comfortable with putting everything in the policy document, um, this would simply say that um, you shall make
reports and it'll be specified in the policy document how you should do it. Period. End of story and the rest. >> I agree. I agree. >> Is that is that acceptable to people? >> So this would not be here. It
>> just the first just the first sentence >> and after period after public ways. >> Yeah. >> And then everything else gets deleted. >> There's no requirement for an appear somewhere else. >> Right. Right. >> Because it's it's there in the in the policy.
>> Right. Right. >> So that would be the thought. >> Yeah. We don't need to we don't need to repeat it. >> Okay. But yeah, that would be the last change
to this document. Um, I think the one thing we haven't talked about, I'm afraid, again, I apologize to Jennifer, is just two counselors in one. >> I like two, but you know, we're not going to resolve it in the next two minutes, but um
>> I like two. Yeah. >> And if the council decides one, they'll >> So, we're going to leave it as it is and see how it plays out, right? >> Yeah, I would like that. You want to have an odd number of people in case there's >> Right. Yeah. >> Well, there'll be odd people on it no matter what, but
>> an odd number. >> At least two of counselors. >> I didn't say a number of odd people. I said an odd number of people. >> Okay. >> I I like the two also. >> All right. Well, we'll leave it then. So, we could vote and let Jennifer go. Is that Is that acceptable?
>> Yeah. The only other thing that we need to do for just a second, but actually Maybe I'll make a proposal and that is that um we not deal with the TSO charge this week and hold that till next week
uh when we have to deal with the carryover memo and% >> the TSO charge. And so let's just take a motion um to uh recommend
the uh committee charge for the TPC as revised at the um committee meeting on December 4. >> Second.
>> Yeah. Um, that being the motion, Bob >> I, >> Council Ryan, >> I, >> Council Lord, >> I, >> Jennifer, >> yes. >> And I'm a yes. So, it's unanimous. So, >> I'm going to sign off, but thank you.
>> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. See you. >> Agreed. I think we're ready to take a motion to adjourn unless there's anything else. The town manager had no appointments. uh we've had no minutes to
uh consider. Um I can't think of any other business. Um so I believe that we uh and we know what our uh we have. >> So next time Andy, if I may, next time we're basically dealing with um a
revised committee charge for TSO >> and committee and the carryover >> and the carryover menu memo. >> Yep. >> And that's December 11th, right? We did accept. We're going to meet on a special. Okay. Okay. >> That's it. >> All right. >> So, I make a motion to adjurnn. Is there
a second? >> There's a second from Bob. >> Hi. >> Okay. Uh, councelor Ryan. >> I. >> Council Lord. >> I. >> I'm an I. And Jennifer is absent. So, that is four to zero. And the motion
to adjourn passes. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Did a lot today. Yeah, it was good. >> Good. >> Okay, >> byebye. Take care. We'll see you Monday.