no rush take time um welcome everyone today is Tuesday April 8th 2025 and this is a regular meeting of the City of Asbury Park Zoning Board of Adjustment chairman Avalon will you please call this meeting to order i'd be happy to this meeting is being held in compliance
with the Open Public Meetings Act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 adequate notice that this meeting has been provided to the Coaster and Asbury Park Press by publication of the annual meeting notes and posted on the municipal bulletin board and municipal website all notices are on file with the
board secretary official action may be taken on the following matters before this board this meeting is being recorded by APV roll call please marie um Wendy Glassman absent uh Daniel Harris absent russell Lewis here jill Powder here
natalie Paserini here jj Hall here Vice Chair Scully here and Chairman Avalone here okay so just a couple of announcements first uh just wanted to let everybody know Tim Slick has resigned from the Asbury Park Zoning
Board for his own for their personal reasons um and we'll be having a education session this meeting there will be no applications um obviously we have no nobody in the public so I don't have to
say that the public doesn't participate um and I would say please make this as interactive as possible ask a lot of questions both Jack and Donna will be presenting and uh the thing is though we
have to be very careful about what questions we ask that we do not specify a particular application or property either past present or future thank you yeah couch everything in terms of a hypothetical if you don't mind uh
ladies first i'm old fashioned good evening everybody um again uh I'd like this to be conversational i don't want to lecture you about stuff that is what I think it's important this is for you guys i
know you've had questions in the past about how should we uh be looking at certain types of applications um you know what are the appropriate sort of parameters to filter things through so um we're just going to you know very
sort of 30,000 ft talk about you know um what do what do we do most of us know the the zoning board just through I think we have 50 years of experience on the board right about
there's that I'd say more between Russell and Christopher they've been around a long time like me I have 15 years okay yeah sis so
um you guys have seen a lot of things um we've seen a lot of changes for for for Asbury Park in general though oh yeah and but one of the biggest things from the zoning board's actual perspective is we changed the rules
right in town so what does the zoning board do people come here when they want to do something that's not allowed and um in 2021 we the city um adopted amendments to the zoning ordinance and land development
regulations that were um recommended by the master plan re-examination that the city undertook in 2017 so there were a lot of things that were conventional wisdom a-ok okay we've been doing it a
long time this way that got shelved thrown in the trash and we're doing it differently now and so when we see things like um you know just generically garages fences garages yes
um you know but that's how it is on 90% of these other houses on the block yeah well you know just in the last 5 years things have changed not to mention how many times in the past before that the standards may have been different so one
thing we have to keep in mind um is understanding that relationship of the city undergoes a planning process to develop policies on land use and that is how we get the rules
that regulate land use so um we're going to go through that process again in 207 2027 um there's actually uh some pending zoning amendments that we've been working on right now to sort of clean up
from the last the last batch in 21 um and so that's one of those things it's this ongoing process we look for those um the guidance from the policies and the master plan but the the rules are the rules
and that's why people come here to seek relief from you guys and so um a little further down we'll get into more of the the meat of you know how you make those decisions and things but so there's different ways of coming here right some people want an interpretation
of how the law applies to them um or what it is they want to do some are appeals um I don't like what the zoning officer said about what I want to do i think they're wrong i think they're reading the ordinance wrong um and some
are just straight up all right I get it it's not allowed but I want to do it how do I convince you guys to let me do it um and that even applies to the ones that come through as a violation how does an appeal vary to an interpretation
though may I yeah sure sure okay i thought I heard Okay um all right i I don't know if you saw the lecture outline that I circulated earlier i sent an email out yes okay under the primary powers of the board
right you look in section 70 you got the right to do interpretations appeals from any zoning officer administrator which is basically the zoning officer or any special questions that come to us and C variances which are bulk basically
D variances which are use category of use uh design exceptions which we see a lot of lately um here and there some uh inherently beneficial uses such as
things like a men's shelter or something like that but uh basically the appeal process is from the zoning officer's decision the interpretation is this somebody's saying that the ordinance they want an
interpretation that this ordinance allows them to do what they did quite often people will if they've been shut out of the appeal process cuz they've gone too they went they've gone too long and the time to appeal has expired they'll try and do a backdoor approach
because they're very they you kind of cross back and forth on these applicants when they come in in their presentation all you're doing in an interpretation is is you're taking the the literal reading of the ordinance and you're applying it to the
facts that's all you're doing okay uh is uh swimming pool allowed yes or no and there's the white and black areas are real easy it's when you get into the gray areas about rooftop decks all that other stuff so that's what that all that
is it's that simple and when you're when they're making their presentation remember the burden of proof is always on the applicant not on you it's not on you to craft a remedy for the applicant that's planning board okay your job is to hear
the case you decide the case have they proven to you by a preponderance of the evidence it's not beyond a reasonable doubt where you hear TV which is the criminal law standard it's just a prepoundonderance of the evidence that it you're basically swayed by the evidence that you see that they're
either they have met their burden of proof or they haven't okay but you always you always back it up with what does the ordinance say that they're asking you to interpret and you just apply it to the facts you don't have to engage you can engage in colloquially in
discussions but you don't have to convince them recently we had a case where it sounded as if one or two board careful not we just all I'm not talking I I'm not talking about any specific case okay but just in general I seen in
a recent case there where board members engaged in a discussion with the witness and it was as if they were trying to convince the witness to the board's members feelings you don't have to do that it's the opposite they have to convince you and if you don't you hear
somebody out respectfully unless they're coming up with something crazy that just is beyond reason and when you're done you're done you just say "Thank you very much." And then you can do your deliberation you just you have your own opinion if they're correct or they're
not but essentially Jack an appeal or an interpretation is just reviewing the ordinance again and applying it right yes the in the first case in the appeal the zoning officer has already reviewed the ordinance the gatekeeper of the zoning ordinance under the municipal
land use your use law is the zoning is the zoning officer the first comes through the gate at their doorsteps they interpret things and they may say "Uh-uh you need a use variance uh-uh you need a
uh bulk variance or a setback or something you know of that nature." um if they don't like if the applicant doesn't like what they've done or they they think they're wrong for some reason they can file an appeal but one has a
limit on a time limit on it to do versus the other one is unlimited the other one is just they're they're coming to you and saying we would like you to interpret this in uh as in for what we're trying to do it's sort of a backdoor way but and quite often in
other areas I've seen it where it pur purely comes in as a question of we're not sure what the ordinance means and then you have to fill in the gaps there are times when there's gaps in ordinances where nobody knows what the answer is but is it our job to interpret
the zoning officer's opinion is isn't it really just changing the opinion of the zoning officer on an appeal basically on an appeal it is if you feel that the zoning officer made a mistake but that's saying that we have more knowledge than
the zoning officer isn't it no it's saying that the state law gives you the ultimate power as the appeals or the appellet process that you have the final say at the at this level zoning officer makes a decision you're the But none of us have had the
training that a zoning officer you don't have to it's it's your statutory responsibility under the first paragraph that says the zone with all questions of interpretation come come to the zoning board and the zoning board makes the determination not the mayor and council
and it's a strict reading it's not like you have to Yeah and some you sometimes you'll agree with the zoning officer and sometimes you won't a good zoning officer makes intelligent decisions zone and on an appeal from a zoning officer's decision he or she should always be here to defend their decision absolutely
can't have Donna do it can't have anybody else do it but the zoning officer because they've got to give you the rhyme and reason and and the quote within the local ordinance as to why they did what they did on occasion you might disagree not it doesn't I would say the majority
of cases most boards don't disagree with their zoning officer because they usually hire somebody competent that has the training and experience that knows how well that's the hope right the city hall isn't making mistakes right but if they do that's why you're here every
every there's always a higher court so to speak until you get to the supreme court to overlook we're all human we can all make mistakes at whatever level and even if you apply You say the zoning officer is correct let's say in a case they still have the right to appeal that
decision to the superior court superior court gets to look over the whole record and the evidence and they can say "No you were wrong zoning officer was wrong you're wrong it's this." They send it back but the superior court has even less knowledge
than I think than the zoning officer in a lot of cases wouldn't you say Jack well that depends that's a lawyer like response that depends quite often if I've gone out over the years if I have a skilled
applicant's attorney or objector's attorney or something like that um and you get an a a judge that never practiced land use law quite often they will tell you cuz they always conference things they'll always tell you look you guys know more about this I had one
judge say to me what I know about zoning and planning where you can fit on the head of a pin I'm in a room with a bunch of land use attorneys who really know their stuff let's talk and let's not go out there and have an inexperienced judge render a decision
that we're all scratching our heads saying you blew it you know no nobody nobody wants a bad decision you disagree with me you know or you can agree with the other side agree with me that's okay that's that's the way ball games are played but and
lawsuits are made but uh I don't want a judge that is unknowing most of them when they realize they have skilled attorneys in front of them they make sure their law clerk does a thorough job in doing their research
and then you have an or they'll probably have an oral argument whether it's now virtual years ago we used to go to court and quite often if I think a judge is going in a wrong direction clearly going in a wrong direction um at 47 years worth of experience I kind of know how
to say with all due respect I think that you just might be missing the point and try and bring the judge back uh and there again if the judge makes a bad decision you can always appeal to the appellet division and then you have to hope that the panel you get knows zoning
and land knows land use law andor they have really good law clerks that do it's such a niche part of the law right that that you know you're not going to get uh really well-versed judges all the time I would say no but you get you get
a reasonably good outcome most of the time i mean there are times I've walked out of there and I've had judges who I was just like they're just they're just they're just imposing their will they want it this way and this is they're going to bootstrap themselves into an opinion and they're
wrong but you know practiced law for 47 years you got you got to get used to wins and losses some you win you don't think you're going to win and some you lose you don't think you're going to lose it's just just the way the game is played
but never let it throw you okay um people come here for a reason right the you're the last resort in the town you know at this level the municipal level sad no no no no it's not actually it's good because the you're the citizens of
the community the the system has given you the rights to interpret things you know um I think it's good system i I I think it works uh there was courts recognize yes that as a panel of local
residents yes you have that local knowledge experience kramer versus the board of adjustment of Seagurt okay whale landmark case from many years ago the court's not supposed to substitute its judgment in favor of yours unless
you've made an arbitrary unreasonable or capricious decision the court has to should by law uphold you even if they don't agree with you they should uphold you because you're the local citizens you know the town you know what is the applicant presented you you are the best
trier of the facts and your and what is good what what is good within your community because again even an appeal isn't rehearing the case no they can they on occasion they'll ask for more testimony or the better thing is when I
see a case going in a direction where there's confusion I don't argue if I see a reversal coming I stop that and I say well then the answer is you got to remand it back for further hearings and then we come back and we get a second bite at the apple whenever I see anything like that coming where I get a
sense uh unless there's a blatant error I mean on occasion you knock this point But remember I've been representing this board since January 1st of 95 so on occasion I've had decisions that were really good and really bad
um if I think it should go back I'll I'll I'll try and rescue it and send have it sent back and then give get further opportunity to hear the case so that's interpretations and appeals
yes there are other applications yeah your section 70 clearly this this this outline gives it to you straight your primary jurisdiction is bulk and use variances okay uh
and you can get site plan approvals yeah that's your but that's your primary jurisdiction on occasion your secondary jurisdiction is that you're permitted to grant site plans applications approvals subdivisions and the like but it has to
be in connection with a use variance application okay uh we rarely get subdivisions though no you're not in you're in an urban area and you're hardly ever going to get site plan applications because typically site plan applications are going to be for permitted uses if they're permitted use
and they have bulk variances they're automatically over at the planning board right you'll just see I I don't think I've seen a site plan application in the 30ome years I've been representing the board maybe five six times seven times in the last five
years yeah that's it not a lot because you just and especially in a town that's developed remember you're in an urban area small but still urban okay this is totally different from Colts Neck or you know out west out the freehold area
whatever out yeah and well and out and out where they're taking farmland and turning it into subdivisions housing shopping centers and the like here you're faced with a completely different set of problems and issues you're always going to have a ton of non-conforming
uses were they created validly or not that's always when I was in Long Branch for 10 years we went through the same thing any urban area where you see where there was once a single family house has to now has multiple families it's always going to be it's always going to come up
as to how did it get from a single to a double or triple or quad something like that so your primary jurisdiction is is your bulks and use you have what's known as
uh like non-conforming uses the and this is this has come up a lot the law on non-conforming uses is very straightforward okay all right put a pin in that though put a pin in that i don't want to All right go too deep in that yet let's All
right all right so those are those are the those are those are basically forat yeah that's the broad format you're in here you go to the book or you go to your little pamphlets that they gave you or whatever they gave you they give you the criteria positive criteria is
uh hardship variance C1 or a C2 okay what's the shape size topography isn't every application in terms of a hardship not in the the hardship is not defined as well I have a personal hardship it has to be something relating to the land
okay that's a C1 c2 it is like a small lot that so like when we had the undersized lots people wanted to put houses that that that's a hardship and then even though most applicants see it that way though D no they they don't understand to them everything's a
hardship right they they want this because they want it that's a subjective criteria it's a personal want and like we said even with those undersized lots there's a test that each of those applicants have to go through is there land available Did you ask those people if they want to sell that land right
right um it's it's not just some subjective you know should we put a house here or something you guys have to weigh that you know first we go through the test evaluate that compare it against the the policies in the master plan that guide you know what it does to
the zone plan and the public benefit substantial detriment in the positive and negative criteria then another positive under under there's C1 C2 c1 is topography shape size etc okay C2 is it's a better use of
the land this is more appropriate than the zoning ordinance itself says you should go with this essentially okay the old days there was a time when a lawyer would never present a variance case without trying to attempt to tie it in to the criteria in the law they'll say
well you know it's clearly the shape size the topography is uneven whatever it is even if it's like real far off they always try to tie it into that criteria because a lot of people just come in and they just tell you their case and say "We it's a hardship on us we want to
put a house there we want to move there it's what we want." Okay the other thing is you got to make sure that there's no substantial detriment to the public good which is the neighborhood okay no substantial detriment to the zone plan the zoning ordinances that your
deviation is not a substantial deviation and that there's no substantial detriment or inconsistency with the master plan so what they're looking to do should be within one of the stated goals of the master plan that's why you get testimony from planners so they can
tie it all in and a use variance it's always special reasons for the D1 through five you're always looking at those and there's a whole list of them and they're listed right in the book or in the primmer okay and it's the same negative criteria for the for the
Dvariance that it is for the uh for the C you always have to go through the the the negative criteria the uh neighborhood master plan and zoning ordinance as long as it's not a substantial detriment to any of those um
and basically that's that's where you're at you get into some other esoteric things here and there which are there's no reason to discuss them until they come up which I could always tell I find the most esoteric or most difficult things to review are design exceptions
ah no really the law the law we have but because they're not really a a variance per se and because they're not a variance design exceptions are sort of like do you like it or not right well there's there Donna always points it out in her report she saves me the time
effort and your money by doing that that there's only the positive criteria you don't there's no two-steps analysis with the positive and the negative just the positive but it still has They're still supposed to demonstrate a hardship
technically why there's some practical problem with them complying with that with that section of the ordinance now we've heard CO was a problem right yeah is that a problem for us to deal with CO right i find that really a
superfluous argument and ridiculous well it is because it's it's a temporary thing well I I will give a little bit that in some of those instances that seemed self-created right yes things were hard to get during
Yeah the start of co and we had a lot of problems with um supply of materials and costs of goods but that doesn't mean your decision making had to be against the ordinance
to achieve the thing you wanted like you know I built a deck i still got lumber but I didn't you know I was aware of what I was doing and whether it was in compliance whereas other people were like well you know this is what we wanted yeah it's still subjective and
it's it's passive it's not a permanent situation remember you're going variances are granted in perpetuity for the most part okay you that runs with the land it's not No no I'm not no not really when you're talking about CO and things like that you don't want to that
that shouldn't influence your decision cuz that's going to blow over at some point again it's been used as an argument well you they can they remember your job is not to convince them of their wrongness their job is to convince you of their right that means clarification for the board members is
why I'm bringing it up yeah okay yeah oh you know it's the applicants so yeah with a design exception there's hardship right so but it has to be like we said a hardship that's not that applicant's personal Yeah you know subjective
hardship subjective hardship yes good it's got to be something is a temporary situation yeah it's got to be something but again look I understand we're all humans but boards are boards the law is the law if every board was really
strictly to the letter of the law applying these rules there would be very little relief granted by any board okay that's why it's still made up of local citizens as opposed to a regional or a state board cuz then once in my
during officer with no appeal in my career there was a move at one time where they tried to say we should take the power away from the locals because you might get a difference in decision in each town i I don't have a problem with that as long as you're not violating basic constitutional laws or
the land use law i think it should be somewhat subjective per town because it's your community this community is different from Malboro okay and you going to apply what you know is the life of this community to these to these
applications so that that stopped dead in its tracks under the home rule situation some legislators tried that back in the 80s uh it didn't work uh which I'm glad it didn't because I always think that it should rest with you at the local level and basically if
you have these you just use this memo and go into a coxbook any one of them they may change the page from year to year which is leads me to one other point i'm trying to develop a little reference library where I can give you some of these old cox books to leave
with with Marie so that if you have issues and you want to read it and I gave one to John I'll try and give a couple there that are not too much cuz I'm I'm a lawyer i write over things make notes tough to read i know I make notes and stuff so uh in a lot of towns
it there was always one or two copies purchased every year for the staff but I think Marie did uh purchase some didn't you uh there Michelle did order them and she usually has extra copies upstairs in the office you know sign out gets you an online version of it too yeah and you
can get an online version of there probably is a code in the back of the book yeah and and if they have the the something that they designed for board members this is for attorneys i mean you don't need I'm I'm not trying to turn you all into attorneys uh you just need
you just need enough information you don't need to inundate yourselves and become analy an analytically like myself as to what laws and all that you that's that's not what this so so and again I'm not sure how many of you guys even know what we're talking about the Cox the Cox
was originally this guy came up with some summary of all the case law every year the what what happened how it affected the land use law and I think my first one was 94 93 3 you're You're young m mine
go back to it was thinner and and the font was larger and they keep like shrinking it and condensing it to try and keep it in a usable format but um you know Yeah it's more of a lawyer thing yeah this is more again guide you
guys when we get a case that's a particular type of relief so non-conforming uses or conditional uses um use variances or density these are things that have gone up to Supreme Court
um even even just each land use law ordinances yes and they've been designed by the city councils of each of those towns exactly yeah based on recommend there the whole body of laws referrals to the planning board yeah the process we went through
with the ordinance amendments i know I'm every town does it yeah you follow the municipal land use do them more often than others back in 76 or 7 Yeah 76 I was a law clerk in the summer so you could never really compare say the setback of one town to the setback of another town whether it's front side or
rear they would be different well you can they each one of them going to have their own list of setbacks in an urban area you're not going to require 90 ft setbacks okay out in Morrow you can can't do that here so interestingly
enough though in Howell where I live in a 6acre zone you're still not allowed to have things in the front yard set yeah i mean there's some common things even though it's 100 ft deep yeah yeah there's some common things that run through right is it okay if I put a shed
in my front yard compared to putting a shed in a front yard in Asbury Park the basic structure some of them keep the same ideas they use model ordinances so a lot of them have the same similarities but there are there are dramatic differences
yeah the basic structure of of municipal land use regulations which are in the form of ordinances are typically the same like format but each town has its own individual needs and creates its own rules pursuant to its master plan the
directors of its master plan all within which falls under the municipal land use law you can't create things outside the four corners of this so that you have some uniformity and constitutionality to the
laws and uh basically that's what you got to do you got to analyze it never think you don't you don't I I know it's tough because they're your neighbors and I'm not saying you should deny anybody but always always do your always make sure that you keep yourself in the
position of they have to convince me by a prepoundonderance of the evidence you know it isn't just evidence evident yeah it's got to be evidence it's got to be it can't be somebody's opinion yeah i mean I I feel like and when they they're going to get up
there and say things like that but you just take it in and just when you do your analysis in your mind before you vote you apply you apply it the way you see fit any other questions about design exceptions yeah the design exceptions
can be tricky i find those the most to deal with because they're they they're certainly a lesser standard of proof and it says that design exceptions may be granted in connection with site plan applications that's but the other thing is we're not supposed to be designers right
well so so design exceptions are are based in the fact that we have site plans and there are regulations pertaining to site plans that may not be as important as what's the location of the building like a parking space size but I'm talking like the the shape of a
roof trying to match it to the other shape of the roof right and that becomes like an issue when I as a personal I I look at it and say I don't like the way that looks right and I want the roof line to match the other roof line so you
know in a way I'm trying to redesign what they want and and that's that's the thing some of them are more technical like the size and shape of a parking stall and some of them are more subjective as to how things look so those whole community
design regulations are all very the city has decided how we want buildings to look but I want a Victorian to be a Victorian i want a Dutch colonial to look like a Dutch colonial i hear you so and we had you know the planning board
last night there you know waterfront development 11 design exceptions related to the guidelines about the design of the building and and the planning board you know kind of had to swallow them whole because yeah it's not uncommon
it's very difficult except in the perfect world to bring some bring a project in that meets every what's in the four corners of the ordinances it's very difficult um then we have the added effect of is this considered a historic
district right and so are we are we changing the look of that historic district because all of a sudden somebody wants to put a contemporary home there legally we don't have a historic district so in our ordinance we have a section that
says R1 R2 and R3 zones um are considered historic districts but it's historic not the capital H National Trust type of historic it's the historic architecture of the
city and that's what it relates to so um we want all of the houses renovations and new construction to reflect that history that architectural history and that's what the community design regulations uh are about matching roof styles and
having porches i'm sorry that's where it falls into right the historic the historic district is more about the design exceptions so to speak well that's where Chris is having problems with applying the design exceptions yeah but we do have historic districts you
know capital H historic districts in the CBD over on Sunset um and but legally we have them yeah yeah those are National Trust registered districts uh across the street uh the bank where
uh Mhm garden of State Equality is now that's a listed national so when you say building Sunset it's Sunset Park is the history around Sunset Park could you go into that a little bit more um like what it means for applications in and around
that area so um when if we get an application in one of those districts and they're changing um a historic structure or well there are buildings within the district that are not historic how would we know that
they're on a map okay how do we know that um couple of couple of ways um if you use the interactive zoning map that the city has there's a layer for that um would you mention it in your report oh
absolutely yes absolutely yeah Donna always points out usually Donna points it out most of those you know happened in front of the planning board um but does that have one we did have one historic district application in the last six years but it was not a listed
structure it was just that it was in the district and um so again those applications if it's this if the structure is a listed structure there's basically you know a test series of questions you have to ask
about um did they receive any federal funding um to renovate acquire do things to the building um that helps um c recapture funds you know if we use federal money to do something to preserve this building you can't undo
that or else you have to take the money back um there are some historic structures that um the activity in the area might affect
um the either the view of it or its um presence in the district those are uh you know a real heavy lift but those are usually only when applied when it's the government taking that action so if the city were going to
um demolish the bridge over Sunset Sunset Lake that would be like a huge thing wouldn't come to the zoning board of course because it's not a zoning action actions by the government do not get municipal review
only in limited cases with the board of ed type of thing um but the former federal government might have given um uh would have undertaken review
under the opices of the national trust um but at the local level um yeah you can demolish a historic building you can modify a historic building it doesn't have to be um you know modified in a way that maintains the historic character
um the those those types of rigs really only apply to if you're using federal funds you are the government undertaking that activity so in terms of design exceptions for anything that would come here in a historic district should we be
you would be evaluating them just as our community design regulations design exceptions so there's no difference basically the fact that it's in a historic district based on what you just said effectively yes right yeah unless it's unless it's one of
those buildings that you can't disturb because it's registered and all that well again even if it's even if it's registered unless the person undertaking the renovation or the building itself have received federal funds right i'm saying in that in that type of case you
can't we but she would point that out we would that would come out in the testimony and say "Okay this one's off limits." But like any other regular for the most part from what I'm hearing Donna say like Steinach building you know that's a historic building in a historic district um that received
federal funding grant funding to do the original renovation I believe Sacramento tapped into okay some some funding sources so that one gets some scrutiny when if anything goes on there but there's also another way to view it too
if you have a neighborhood with specific roof designs right um generally you have to keep to that same type of roof well so and that was one of the things we changed in the ordinance amendments we said you don't have to have the same kind of roof if
you're doing a renovation or an addition to an existing building it just has to be a roof style that's found in the in the neighborhood but for instance some a lot of people now want to move towards these metal roofs because they're
they're they last longer right safer i don't know safer for fire yeah metal roof is way safer but very few people in a neighborhood have metal roofs right so but yet they want to switch to a metal roof okay
is that an automatic way for us to deny that only if there's a standard that they're violating remember denying you can't you can't just deny something on subjective standards because it's the way you want to see things you have to
apply uniform criteria so that you apply it to the next person that comes in the same similar application but there's no metal roofs in that neighborhood somebody wants to put on metal roof so but metal is a finish it's not a design
that's true well but we still regd goes down to materials of what you you know the siding and the the roofing material unless your ordinances go into that detail of language you can't necessarily
tell someone they can't finish their roof or certain pitch you can talk about general design so it's there's a little bit of gray area with roofs in our ordinance it's not that it wouldn't be
allowed it has to be accurate accurate like could you have had a standing seam metal roof on a similarly styled building maybe it was slate originally we're not
doing slate roofs oh would metal have been an alternative yeah we had metal roofs historically on Victorian buildings colonial buildings quasi queen buildings craftsman buildings
um again zoning officer is going to determine whether it's appropriate by looking at neighborhood history architectural style of the building and how it reads how they read that section of the ordinance you know
is the whole roof it sounds a little It is that's why it's the zoning officer making a decision based on a lot of criteria and if somebody doesn't agree then they come here you
know we like to say it's very black and white sometimes you know the zoning officer is the authority they're they're evaluating these things um if they apply subjective standards versus objective standards that's grounds for appeal and
a reversal everything as as John well knows he's an attorney under the law you have to have objective standards that are applied equally under the equal protection clauses the United States constitution state constitution and the like so you all the way down the line even into zoning and planning you can't
just have these nebulous set of criteria so that you come in and maybe one board likes this and then somebody else comes in and I don't like that but it's the same thing that over here we don't like the person it's got to kind to be uh neutral neutral you know there's got to
be an objective set of standards it can't be subjective can you define neighborhood for me well that there's I I don't I don't know the definition of neighborhood the neighborhood is probably it's easily within 200 ft which is what you have to
have noticed mhm uh but in the general vicinity of the area you know I that's really something that's a that's a term of art that you folks have to apply you if they tell you six blocks away there's
a house with such and such and this is uh you know Kingsley and first versus uh sixth and bond i don't think you're going to buy that huh says the B yeah well I know it's
back there believe me I know that but you you you're going to not you're going to say "Okay you listen to them and say "Okay." But you might say you might want to engage them and say "I don't agree with you that's not the neighborhood." Or you just listen and say "Thank you very much." And then when you do your
analysis you just say "No I don't buy I don't buy that planner's testimony that this is that what they're claiming to be within the neighborhood." It's not within the neighborhood that goes into your matrix of thought as to whether or not you grant or deny the relief requested or you buy into why they're
claiming their client should be entitled to the relief requested so on that there are criteria within the design regulations that say on the same block front or on the same block either side of the you know both sides of the street so it
gives you that frame of reference it's not just the entire east side or Yeah if there's something in the ordinance Donna will always point it out and metal roofs are permitted just I was I wanted to see in materials cuz I thought metal roofs were an allowed thing metal roofs are allowed so
you know that criteria like that for instance windows like often become a big deal right well in some places historic district with historic district guidelines like you won't be able to use a vinyl window right it has
to be a wood frame window we don't we don't go to that level we just want to make sure you know it's a double hung or it's consistent with whatever the style of windows are from that period for that house for that building you know so yeah how much weight should
be given to those things in a neighborhood when you're presented by an applicant and say there's six houses that have this and I want to have it too how much weight should be given to that well
what's and I know you're going to say that every applicant should be on its own merit are those things the thing that isn't allowed yes okay that I mean I don't I don't know why it wouldn't have been allowed then yeah um
unless it's a thing that's you can't bootstrap yourself in by saying well no it's not allowed but since they have it I should have it that depends for that yeah it well you have to you you have to then in your analysis
say okay there's three quarters of this neighborhood that don't have it we don't know how they have these these five or six have it we don't know how if the character of the neighborhood in your opinion as board members is still of the
old look versus the new look then the fact that four or five other houses have it doesn't mean that that's the new character of the neighborhood right in your analysis so this is where one day they throw a
baseball and it's a ball and some the next day it's a strike but we've been given pictures right where they'll show us houses yeah and and those six houses have what I want okay just because they exist elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean that you have to grant it unless there's
a consistent pattern clearly a consistent pattern throughout the neighborhood and then then that's a different story well and there's a thing in the ordinance also that says is the element architecturally accurate mhm is it in character with the building and the
historic district that it's located in um you know based on the the architectural style the building's history within the existing block front on either side of the street and are there existing historic
buildings with distingu distinguishing features and I'm I'm thinking of a couple of sites um where we've had applications before you're going to get into a strange so there's you know you still have to Yeah they're going to give you pictures of 12 buildings and you're
going to throw out the ones that are well not in our neighborhood you know not within the block front not on either side of the street not architecturally accurate not you know in character with the rest of the neighborhood because again if these 12 buildings are you know
on the side street not on the block front two blocks away whatever it is you know these are the parameters how you weight it like you're saying how do I weight that this again goes back to that burden of proof they've paid their professional
staff to present the case that they should that to get what they want essentially right you're on the other side of the Yeah you're on the other side of okay they're trying to sell me this does this re are they accurate in
their sales pitch is it correct is it is it the legal criteria or is it not can you guys go into a little bit about garages because I know that a couple of years ago last year that
I was a little surprised i think a couple other were that there was a revision of the ordinance we just did that yeah and that it was allowed to be closer to the front so can you speak to like why it was changed how it was changed and what we should be looking for now
so I think the zoning office was seeing a lot of applications for new development single family houses the typical you know stock plans that everybody has is there's an attached garage attached garages now and the garage opening faces the street and
that's not characteristic of our town garages are usually detached you know in the back at least in you know certain parts of town um we do have some town houses where you know you have the garage it's facing the street it's right
in the front building line um so uh the standard was developed to you know say okay um you know get with the times I guess you know it's more modern convenient
typical um to have a attached garage um but we don't want it to be the dominant architectural feature in the front of the house so you know I don't know who came up with the 5T but it was offset it needs to offset from the front building line
at least 5 ft that was like that should give it some visual something you know it can't be a lot otherwise um you know if we only have a 100 foot deep lot you know it still has to be able to fit within a 5,000t lot typical
minimum aspberry lot configuration so I think that was you know how it came about wasn't too egregious wasn't you know just to add a little bit to that Donna there were a lot of the ordinance were reviewed and we we looked at
various trends through applications over a period of time and where we saw yeah there were some people coming in and it was like well how do we make them not put the garage in front of the main building you know we want to have that
front porch that's the key feature of um a lot of the single family dwellings in town and multif family dwellings in town again this whole what is the typical Asbury historic dwelling style and I think for a lot of people that's
you know third through eighth on the east side and on the west side you know conventional typical 2 and 1 half story gable end roof porch open railings
the pro there's a process okay so that's so that You're scowlling are you scowlling at the idea or are you scowlling what are you scowlling about um just in a scallally way it's okay yeah no I mean I I know what what Jill's
referring to i mean I stumbled into the you know to the garage uh fiasco with that neighbor fiasco fiasco yeah i didn't even know that our ordinance had changed and that's I was going to explain to you russell and I were both like what yeah I can explain there there
are certain things that have changed that we that we were not educated on i'm thrilled which is a problem well I'm thrilled that we're doing this educational classroom how do you remember what we went through it took years to years we were never
told we were never educated so certainly for someone that has a flip book of the changes that actually occurred well the way it occurs the way it occurs under the law is first of all you start out with the premise that zoning should not
take place through variance applications okay should take place through legislative enactment which is by the legislative branch of the government which is the mayor and council okay under the land use law that being said zoning board every year does a
report to the city to the city that'll identify patterns of what you're seeing for some if they want these garages you know you're starting to see that that should go in into the city into the planning department in the city and that
should be taken into consideration when they do their review of their ordinances okay then the process is before any redevelop any development ordinance can be amended mayor and council they they have their hearings it's on their
agendas public has a right to go and then whatever they come up with is referred to the planning board no re no development ordinance zoning ordinance or the like site plan ordinance can be adopted unless it's first sent to the planning board for review and
recommendations planning board has no authority to overturn what's been done but the planning board does a legislative type hearing hears from the public makes recommendations we think this should change that should change which is done all the time and then it goes to the
mayor and council the mayor and council can ignore what the planning board said can adopt some of it or adopt all of it if they ignore it completely there's different there's sometimes there's not a simple majority of a quorum it's a majority of the full membership but
essentially that's that's how the process works i don't know what the how far they the city goes other than the legal statutory notices when they put it in the paper to change things but I don't know how far the outreach is to the
community to come in because the during that legislative process we hear from everybody we allow them come up testify give their opinion you know um and and that's how you decide all of a sudden you know over the years I've been here a long I probably
been here longer than anybody right in ter I haven't lived here longer than anybody but I've been involved in Asbury Park longer and you see when we first did this whole redevelopment plan there was an old faction within the city that did not want to change things they wanted to keep things the way they were
in the 1930s there was a whole new group of people yourselves included that came in and said "Look it's our city those people are gone we want our city to look this way you're the constituents it's your town so now the town looks this way." So
there's that's how you get the flavor you get the the feedback from the general members of the community on the standards you can't just stick to the old design standards because that's the way it was you got to go if if if the younger people or the majority of home
families or individuals buying homes want certain features they're going to they're going to impress their elected officials to include these certain features now within the development or they're going to come before the zoning board or they're going to come before the zoning board and when you start eliminate actually a lot of applications
and that's by some of the ordinances right Donna yeah yeah that's the way it should be because you don't want to zone by variance after a while you start seeing the same thing over and over again you say "Wait a minute you got to you got to redo this ordinance because members of the community want." Yes
exactly yeah and there's case law that says you're not supposed to do this you're supposed to do it by legislative you have your ordinances invalidated if the court finds you guys are zoning by Yeah by Yeah so that's the process how the outreach
doesn't get to all the members of the community i'm not really sure i'm not in Well the planning board is noticed right they notice absolutely there's always adequate notice given by law well so when you've done the master plan process you don't have to notice the whole town for these amendments that come out of
you know out of that because there were notices as part of the master plan process um Fred took a little stricter line he wanted not people noticed he wanted all property owners noticed for certain types of changes even if it was covered by the master plan
recommendations because you know it's too big of a change you know we're reszoning somebody's property so um I know for a while there were a lot of notice activities going on for different sections of the ordinance ordinance but again you know it's going to be a kind
of a hit and run in the in the newspaper or whatever uh the notice on the on the bulletin board because what was it you know 200 pages of changes you know you weren't you weren't going to get a sense of oh yeah we didn't
know we didn't know it we didn't know us I'm not saying I didn't know it as a resident I'm saying I didn't know it as a as a law I mean there is no obligation to give you guys notice I and I were sitting here periodically and
we had a particular hypothetical application and we both were like what when you said 5T see now with the and I guess I'm going to take responsibility for that maybe we should have
notified the boards that there all these ordinances went uh were changed or deleted or amended or at least send us a document and say Things have been updated and changed here but it was everything though you can't imagine those you will be on my list it was everything from size it
happens quite often but it changed thing it changed our It changed our job yes yeah your criteria changes we were up here with the applicant and lawyers and
being recorded and I'm like "Hey that's not allowed." And you correct me and say "Oh yeah i'm sorry we changed the ordinance and then the attorney is really important i said I don't know what's going on i felt like with you and it was like when you're on television
um I like don't feel that way no don't don't pay any attention well it just I you know it's I think you know I walk around I walk around my neighborhood every day every day and I am now seeing things that I walk by as as a 20-year
zoning board member i'm like re really who approved that oh maybe they've changed it and I don't know i see a fence out here on a corner property i see a a single car garage being built right now on a property that I don't
understand i see I don't remember just cuz you see things being built doesn't mean you didn't got an approval i know but I mean that was my job as the zoning officer when I was here in the 80s was driving down the street and going wait I didn't issue a
permit for that so what I did walking but yeah there are change there were changes that would like to be empowered with you know the truth of what our ordinances actually mean up here especially the ones that highly affect us like there might be 200
revisions overall but five might pertain to the zoning board over you know they don't no they all pertain to whichever whichever applicant is going to be agrieved by those changes and comes to you so yeah you know and we
did have some that that through some we eliminated completely right Donna some we eliminated an entire ordinance where that that changed a lot of applications well yes but and don't forget I mean in
the zoning office every day they're dealing with people coming in saying "I want to do this." they get told "Well you can't but if you kind of tweak it this way or that way or shift this or cut it back um then you don't have to go to the
board you we can get you to comply." Um is it the shed section they did add that section about sheds if you don't have a garage or a driveway you're exempt from the building coverage and certain setback requirements there are three homes that I can that I can site in my
neighborhood none of them came before this board so I don't know if they were applicants before the planning board or the single family home wouldn't be but do they need relief they don't have to come to you unless they're breaking the law right but based on what I understand the ordinances and the design uh
guidelines these homes do not fit in what I would believe would be something that would be home what's that i thought they were a garage the simple answer is to go down to the zone to go down at the zoning office you know I had done that a couple of times and I was told "Oh the zone you
know the yeah the the zoning changed that that's now allowed." So it's like "Oh okay well I'm sitting on the board here for all these 20 years no one told me that would be nice." So I it's again it's about education and empowerment and making sure that everyone up here
understands what they're hearing and what they're ruling on and I it I just felt like we were not given those tools i think that's about Yeah I know and that's good feedback because we are going to have more amendments coming in
and there's a there's a brand new house new construction being built in my neighborhood right now where the garage is not 5 ft back from the front of the house so do I do I take a picture of it and you know I've done that a couple of times and gotten sort of in it's not um
and there's another house on that same block actually right across the street brand new construction that has a second floor am I getting a little too specific these are not applications before yeah I mean the these are these are enforcement issues a lot of them are enforcement issues that
that people should be paying attention to um as we know this board has gotten into a lot of trouble with enforcement issues we've had to clean up a lot of messes which is actually again another thing that's really really frustrating really frustrating and something that I actually don't think really should be
our jobs when you're not agree with that is the issue is this it's this it's this if you I've been here a long time i've se it was worse it was a lot worse okay however
however in an urban area like this you could hire a lot more zoning a lot more code enforcement officials zoning officer zoning officials to go out and comb the streets and they will come back with lists upon lists of violations it's
a matter of staffing it's not a matter of And it's also time yeah it's time staffing and the like they could get a violation notice i know and then they 10 days go by they can go to court and then the court how many hours have I
dedicated to this board in 20 years i don't want to hear about time it's 8 it's 8:00 right now on a Tuesday time is very important to me so I want to make sure that the city is matching the same commitment to time in
detail that I am and the rest of this board is and I don't see that all the time i've had this argument many times i just I don't want to hear I don't hear about time we have people in positions that should be doing what Russell run a full-time business i don't have time to
show up here and listen and do that as a volunteer and I'm hearing that my city government doesn't have the wherewithal to go out and police you have a half of an employee that does zoning enforcement yes a half of anoint large i I understand it and in
1987 I was the only person doing it we didn't even have an in-house construction official and I had to run around town literally every single day catching during a recession when there no building was going on and I was still catching people converting houses to
roaming houses building whole buildings without permits it's tough um but yeah the city has allocated resources in a certain way you have half a zoning enforcement employee and a full-time zoning officer
well it makes our jobs really hard i I I get it their jobs are hard too i was there last year for three months filling in until we got Vince and Morgan and you know it's a non-stop stream of people coming up to the counter and then trying
to catch the ones that skip the counter you know they go right to the code office or they go right to construction and try and pull a permit and then I think Russell what he's saying is I'm tired of hearing that they're here because they want forgiveness as opposed to problem for 40 years but yeah back
longer than that you can't well you we can't help that you're going to see those people they have the right to come and seek the variance to beg forgiveness that's part of the process
We are trying the city is trying to keep catch them and I'm having multiple meetings about they go to court and the court says we'll see if you can get your variance i just held one with an entire group of
people about this same issue this exact same issue but honestly yeah I can say the city manager is working with his people and they can do the best they can but we're always
going to be faced with this issue always always in a in an intense developed town like this a small city like this with the development patterns and the intensity of the population you're always going to have this cuz there are people who are
hellbent on violating the law they're going to do what they want to do and worry about it especially when they feel that they've spent so much money on a particular piece of property and they feel that they should have the right to do whatever the hell they please and that's the bottom line Jack okay well that whatever these whatever their
reasoning is their reasoning is I can tell you you go to Lakewood you go to Long Branch you go to Red Bank you go to Madawan any any urban area that any of the established towns oh it doesn't have to be an urban area you see what the zoning officer goes through in Defford
yeah I know i I in Atlantic City anywhere you're going to this is a neverending problem it'll never It never gets solved it can only be treated but you never cure the disease because people are going to constantly be doing
it do you know we I mean you look at the non-conforming you got a ton of non-conforming uses to if if we wanted to be real strict we'd have to come here with arm guards because because we would be
turning down a whole lot of people because they can't establish how the use was legal at one time there's nothing in the files anyway uh so no I mean there's some pretty good records yeah there's some but the point is is before you can
claim that you have a non-conform valid non-conforming use you have to prove that at one point in time it was a conforming use right predates zoning or predates the zoning so if you can't prove that you can't prove the validity of the nonconformity but we made a
policy decision 2530 years ago that the last major over overhaul was of everything was about at the end of the 80s and we said okay if you can prove that you were in existence in 1990 1988 you're going to get a pass essentially because it was a legislative
a legislative policy that it had to be because there's no way you could go back and prove or disprove and we would just have people going crazy you know with with a lot of the houses that have that have apartments in there fortunately the
redevelopment trends are and the and the investment in the city by you know you all of you new people that came in subsequent to the 1980s and so on is that you're taking those houses that had three and four and five units and turning them back into single family
homes again or rooming houses or rooming houses and turning them back into conforming uses so it's happening by citizen activity itself that helps it reinvest yes reinvestment cuz if you came here in the 1980s first of all I
wouldn't come I I wouldn't come here in the 1980s cuz there was no business i my office my my office was in Long Branch at that point i was here with a police radio yeah and I was the Long Branch planning board attorney from 80 to 90 and my office was there there was nothing going on in Aspbury Park there
was absolutely nothing and and then in the mid Oh we had stuff going on well not not to the rest of us land use attorneys i know your zone your planning board sometimes met once a year you're kidding absolutely zoning board probably only met what once a year the planning
board met a little more frequently but I think it was mostly hearings on the land development regulations that Dave and I wrote yeah but yeah I was I was very busy as a zoning officer driving around town catching people who were doing renovations
carrying single family homes into boarding houses rooming houses multif family dwellings um you know in the R1 district so not allowed um and um you know on the east side it was
worse because we had a lot of the old hotels um and they weren't uh you know attracting tourists so they were just trying to jam them full of transient residents and um
uh so single room occupancies and Yep okay um yeah so okay so um so yeah you are going to get cases that are yes we violated the ordinance the court says we have to come here and try and get our
variance and if what they're doing again you're applying the test um is it hardship is there is there public benefit what's the negative criteria what's the impact on the zoning right is
your evidence credible as to how what those impacts are like again we built a thing it's just like everybody else in the neighborhood well no that's not really your neighborhood it's not architecturally compatible it's not historic element
it's not you go through your criteria and you say "How did you come up with that rationale?" That's how I feel so that's subjective um or you know well that's what's in the market that's what people want are you a real estate
professional because if you're not expertise that is not your expert area you cannot testify right your evidence has to be credible and then you said "Sorry." Yeah you haven't met the criteria you just apply the criteria just do your best to
apply it uniformly if somebody has already done something and they're asking for forgiveness they did it not you you apply the criteria and if it's a tough decision it's I understand tough decisions but apply the criteria if you feel that they would have been entitled to the variance if they had come to you
in the first place fine if you don't you don't and then it'll just be dealt with accordingly it's just those are the facts that's the way it works oh I thought of another site plan
i It was bothering me i knew that we had a couple of site plan applications yeah i mean it happens it doesn't happen often because there's not a lot of open land if you're going to have a site plan application here for any type of development it's usually tail purchase consolidation down or the
type right the type of renovation or construction that actually involves site development but when we get those we'll let you know you know they're few and far between you know the primarily you're just going to see these variance applications non-conforming use interpretations
uh and all that that's that's just the nature of the zoning board the planning board's a lot easier because everything's permitted or it wouldn't be there your job but they still have the same struggle with design exceptions yeah yeah i mean they they're not just
passed willy-nilly but it's not like they're coming in there and they got to convince you for a use variance with five out of seven members you know that was another thing I wanted to definitely hit on so um remember some types of relief require that supermajority you
need five positive votes to grant the variance so that's use variance is actual use D1 uh expansion of non-conforming use D2 that's a type of use variance um uh do we even have conditional uses anymore rarely do you
see a conditional use but any any of those devariances the height devariances um define for the board specifically what a non-conforming use means an expansion I will of that okay section 68 of the land use law
non-conforming uses a non-conforming use is a use that at one time was permitted under old zoning ordinances or predate zoning ordinances which would be way way back that ultimately was converted into
a nonconforming use because the ordinance changed and doesn't permit that use anymore it's that simple okay well that's that's the nonformity that that's the nonconformity okay two gay just to elaborate on that a little bit
so you have like a single family home that had x amount of bedrooms then all of a sudden it became a multif family home right right yeah all of a sudden you got And what zone is it in is it in a single family zone if it's in an R1 zone and you got four units in there
it's not and it's an old It's a house originally was a house okay well okay well we're we're Some of the homes were huge yeah we're grandfathered well how are you grandfathered well uh we've been in a four family unit for 20 years well
okay uh we look back and find out that that was an R1 zone since the 1930s and it's never changed so then you're going to have to prove to us technically that pre 1930s there were four families in there
nobody's going to be able to do that other than that you you you have to come in for a declaration of non-conforming use zoning officer got themselves in trouble historically in this town because they overstepped their authority the only time that the zoning officer
can issue a certificate for for a valid non-conforming use a zoning permit is if the application for that permit is made within one year from the date that the ordinance changed it from a conforming
use to a non-conforming use anytime thereafter the only an entity that has the authority to issue non-conforming use status or a permit is the zoning board of adjustment you can go to the zoning board of adjustment at any time but the
zoning officer has that limited window of power one from one year from when it's created until they apply for the nonconformity if they issue a zoning permit beyond that one year it's an ultravirus act now
it's not a negligent act it's it's beyond the scope of their authority okay and we've had situations on numerous occasions where zoning officers have issued those and then the applicants take them and they relied on them and they to their detriment started the work
and so on and they can come in they can argue what's called an estoppel theory that says "Hey I got this permit from so and so i relied on it so I did the work." Or even worse the construction department came in and gave them a CEO right right
well there was a time when I started here that the construction department did not talk to the zoning department and I said "How can you not have a matrix when somebody comes in for a construction permit it should for this type of repairs or additions or anything like that it should go over and get a
zoning permit if the zoning officer signs off on it fine then you issue the permit for the construction but if they don't and they say "Wait a minute that's not a four family house that's an R1 zone we have no record of that." Well we got a tax bill the tax records are not
indicative of whether or not it was converted whether or not it's a legal non-conforming use okay so we've run into that we got to a point at one time where the zoning officer who was here many years ago was not permitted to issue zoning permits unless they spoke
to Susan Gr or me first well back in the days where we have them as a planner right and and that's how bad it got because zoning permits were being issued somebody can go in and just say zoning permit and they got a zoning permit like what are you doing well there's four
families there well I know there's factually four families there but it's not you can't issue this you first of all you know you don't have the power because that was created that would have had been created 30 years ago because the ordinance changed 30 years ago or 40 years ago what what
in-depth analysis did you do on the property i just saw that there was four families in there i said "Got a mistake here got the wrong person in the job." So that's that's what a non-conforming use is so an expansion of non-conforming use is
a delicate issue and so there's probably an entire chapter in that book constitutes expansion same criteria as the original use variance application you have to they have to
establish the same negative positive and negative criteria for a use variance for an expansion so we've had cases where people have argued that what we're doing is so small
insignificant benign um so there's some case law that pertains to that um and it's based on partially an estoppel case um and
um you know again the board has to weigh the credibility of the evidence being presented by the applicant about what they're doing what it is they want to do and how what those impacts are and again you guys are the deciders of how
substantial an impact is how much you think it's going to affect the neighborhood the zone plan so um you have to deliberate that listen to the to the witnesses assess their
credibility of their evidence what it's based on and come to your conclusions um do you want to talk about how that goes on the record and how it's important in the uh No I don't want no I don't want to get into the weeds because So yeah I want to keep it simple as I can you know
some are very plain i'm adding a dwelling unit i'm expanding the floor area i'm changing something from a vacant storage space to now it's going to be um you know a kitchen change
in intensity change in density change in volume all of those things affect whether it's substantial and constitutes expansion so this is very simple right physical expansion i'm putting on an addition
obviously bigger sometimes our non-conforming uses are also non-conforming structures right they don't have the right amount of setback um so if they're putting on an addition they're further affecting that setback
deviation that can be viewed as you know being a negative expansion of the use as well as the structure so um you know you have to take that whole look at the whole thing and evaluate each aspect of that criteria are we
going to be seeing ADUs come before this board no not at all not on any level no they're all going to be before city council but we've had an argument about an ADU michelle has had uh some conversations and um she feels that the
way the ordinance is written that permits ADUs um there's no avenue um that would put them before the zoning board okay yeah um what if they want to put the ADU closer to
the sideyard setback or what if it goes over lot coverage by 100 ft what if it changes F are all those things being considered are all of those impacts being changed
in our current or ordinances so again the and doesn't it mean also that you're becoming like a two family to a three family does it change those are some of the some of the things about the way the AU ordinance is is written um it is not considered a
multif family doesn't have to be doesn't have to be registered with the state as a multif family can only be a one or two family dwelling and an ADU um and because it's in a separate building it's not in the one or two family house it's
a separate building um that's part of it even though we do have multifamilies registered as with the state as multifamilies where they're in two separate buildings um I I mean we haven't seen it yet i haven't seen one yet she's been able to
either convince applicants to fully comply so they're not coming here or they've been fully compliant so that's why they're not coming here are ADUs
strictly separate buildings yes you can't construct one inside a inside an existing dwelling correct that's why it's accessory i It's like accessory structure dwelling not just accessory dwelling so but yeah has to be
a separate builder y and can only be associated with one or two family house so if you have a three family and one in ADU no again I don't know why that doesn't come here as a use variance seems to be a mechanism missing here but I I would think ultimately they
would have to at some point be able to have an appeal process you can't just be denied process right so I'm not sure and everyone has their day at the zoning board right yeah so someday you might get a question on an
interpretation of that you might It all depends on it's fact sensitive but yeah uh if anybody tells you oh this this would be could be construed as an ADU that's probably a pretty far reach because yeah very strictly has to be a
separate structure can't be associated with anything larger than a one or two family dwelling can we talk a moment about front balconies what about them is it an expansion of use is it a non-conforming
use is it permissible in the historic district it depends i have to you know you have to evaluate all the criteria that are happening with that particular site what's the architectural you know
significance of the building um if it's in an R1 two or three district right because it's it'll be subject to the community design regulations um what is the use is it a permitted use is it a non-conforming use you know if it's a single family house and it's in the R1
zone that's permitted use um you'd go to the zoning office and say "I want a second floor balcony on the front of my house." Morgan has to evaluate the architectural aspects of it for conformance with the community design regulations
um I'm going to say nine out of 10 of these are going to come back as "Yeah no." Because we either have a front setback issue because when you put something on top of your front porch you no longer get that exemption for the front
setback we mentioned the front setback line from the front property line to the building wall not the porch mhm so if you put something on top of the porch and and most of our existing buildings you know the front porch is in the setback so if you put something on top
of the porch now you're in the smartyard setback cuz that end of that balcony becomes the front wall is that what you're saying i think that's how they're interpreting it whatever you're putting up there mhm um and again depending on what it is they're doing so is it a
railing is it um is there other stuff how how far does it extend is it a non-conforming structure is it a non-conforming use are the you know the architectural design components compatible with the community design regulations is it a non-conforming structure did I say non-conforming
structure mhm okay um so that's what they're evaluating and deciding whether yes you could get a permit or no you need to get relief from the zoning board yeah remember that's the threshold you're always usually going to get a secondary application which is if you
turn if you come out against them they're going to ask for the variance and then that's a whole other set of criteria you may very well say we like this who knows uh but yeah it's usually a two-step process but a second floor balcony on the back of a house you know again it might meet the architectural
criteria because it's a weaker standard on the back um it may comply with setbacks you know they may not have a problem on the sides or the rear um or they may be able
to you know position it so it complies with the sideyard setbacks and they have plenty of rear yard setback and whether or not there's a problem with you know coverage building coverage if it's over a one-story part of the building in the back it's not going to increase building coverage because that's already a solid
so you know there may be situations where one in the backyard there would be no you know zoning regulation that that would um that prevent it so many times let me ask a question
Donna Jack um many times we get an application for a particular thing right but when they go out there and they review the property there may be four existing situations on that property mhm and all of a sudden that we're really
just reviewing that one thing but those four things that were existing problems or or variances that were never approved all of a sudden we forgive those all at once so are you talking about nonconformities related to
setbacks setbacks and or lot size right okay yeah well that's quite again urban area smaller house smaller lots quite often all houses that were built 50 60 70 years is that like a
grandfather did yes they're they're they're prior nonconformities they're not illegal in the sense that somebody did it they didn't just go build the house now and make and violate the setbacks it's it's not a use situation it's a boat situation that's all and
then there's lots of them all over the place pre-existing nonconformities it's it's we see that you see Donna's report she'll always outline all of them she gives them to you but you can tell by reviewing those or just Not really not really no i never really get excited
about those you know some people say "Why don't you put a whole big thing in your resolution?" I don't have to they've been that way the board knows they're there the the the House if if they're not going to grant the relief that they're requesting now it's not because then they're not going to rely
on those pre-existing non-conforming setbacks for the basis for the denial of the application that's before them now it wouldn't make any sense so why bring them up to because they have to be pointed out to you they'reformational and they may have again you know if it's a Yeah
a lot that's too narrow right right and there's an existing sideyard setback deviation what are we doing carry that setback variation longer in the lot it's relevant but you're not changing the house you're not going to change the
existing condition of the house we're going to focus on what the difference the new thing is can this work can what they're proposing work and not look disproportionate not throw everything out of whack and and like you guys rightly do like well so is the neighbors building you know going to be obstructed
by the new construction you know negative impact um but yeah um there's I guess there's two schools of thoughts because I've seen other towns where they they make a point of granting those variances
but that's not our job though we We are aware of it but it's not for us to focus on right even if you granted the variance all you're doing is val it would be like you're doing the put a stamp in stamp on there to bring to make
it you're validating legally so that's all and and by granting the variance and that you we know like I always say there are various non-conforming non-conforming bulks of variances on the property pre-existing anybody that can and if they're going to they're not going to argue over that on
an appeal they're going to argue over what was done that you granted it's really the new thing that coming before us exactly yeah after 47 years they're not I know what they're going to do the objectors or they're not going to do if they want to raise that on appeal and some judge gets it i say "Okay then send
it back i'll redo the resolution i'll get a new vote." You know let the let the applicants the the appellants pay their lawyers a second fee to come back or we just keep moving forward and talk about what's really relevant now for for benefit of the new members
okay I got some old-timers here okay grumpy old i I I don't want to I want to talk to everybody when I speak so I don't know the the degree of your knowledge you seem to have more knowledge than I thought are you an attorney um I'm
offended by that comment no no no no no that No that's not it in a way no no that that was not intended to be offensive i I want to make sure that when I when I speak to you I have an understanding oh then I'm sorry that you Okay yeah no I I want to
be able to speak to you i want to I want to have an idea of what you what you know so I don't just gloss over things i can play one on TV good good okay cuz you seem to have a lot of knowledge you know you by the way you're not helping
no no no the idea no no I I didn't mean to offend you not at all i just want to make sure that when I speak to you I don't assume things that Okay and and JJ how about you i'm definitely getting used to more of the terminology but I I'm familiar with the process okay good
okay no I just want to Do you have real estate backgrounds or I am a realtor now you're a realtor all right i find a lot of real estate people um have a very quick some of them can be very quick at uptake of this stuff and some of them know but
um does sometimes help yeah again I'm really I I didn't mean to be offensive i'm sorry i forgive you okay thank you um okay are there things about the process that at least locally the process how about just for for the
benefit of of the entire board go through the process how an application comes before us Donna like where it starts and how it ends sure um again a couple of paths um an applicant somebody in town comes to city hall and goes to the zoning
office ultimately sometimes they go to building first or they start somewhere else but ultimately they end up in the zoning office and um they can apply for a zoning permit or certificate of zoning compliance to find
out if what they're doing or the property they're interested in is either permitted use or um what they want to do is is allowed and uh depending on what that is um they might get a zoning denial where they might just be told
"Yeah no no no no you're going to have to go to the board." Um and that's kind of the most popular way of of going I guess so if um if uh Morgan issues a zoning
denial um those people can then file an application for a variance again we're talking about a situation where they would come to the zoning board so either it's a bulk problem or a use problem
and uh so they you know there's fees and plans and things that they have to pull together um so there's an administrative review process that goes on and then um once they have all their ducks in a row basically they get scheduled to come
here and come before you guys um depending on the outcome uh they can it never goes that smoothly it's my perception depending on the outcome they can uh ultimately go get their zoning permit and their building permit and
then go do what they want to do um but yeah I mean the process can be quite tedious can be quite tedious can be quite timeconuming can be very confusing and expensive extremely expensive um you know applicants who are
just like a single family homeowner with what they think is something very simple and don't get an attorney um often times do have the the worst scenario happen to them um some of them
you know draw the bad luck of a bad architect or you know other professional or think they can do it on their own or think they can do it on their own well they think they don't understand the the the need to establish the legal criteria in the case right
nor should they cuz they did yeah a lot of times the the process is lost on them they think they're just coming here like it's part of an administrative process we can just kind of get our pull my deck outside you know um and again having the lawyer or a knowledgeable design
professional assist them um goes a long way um but you I mean you guys have seen the range of who's more helpful and less helpful um and then when you get the bigger uh
projects or bigger um more speculative um applicants they usually have a pretty good team yeah they never process um they sometimes too are um gobsmacked by the cost the time and the fact that it's
not a rubber stamp um uh but yeah you know end to end and then there's still process afterwards um they build their thing uh zoning still has to sign off that what they built is actually what was approved and um sometimes there's bonds
that have to be posted for improvements and they have to go through a process there's also a time frame for everything correct Donna so um most of the stuff that you guys grant um those approvals are unlimited
uh time to do things unless we apply a time limit and we have that ordinance but a variance but you put on many resolutions Jack that they have to do something within a year that's because the city has an ordinance that says that if you don't you lose your variance i I
have my doubts about the enforcibility of that but it's an ordinance and I can't ignore the law that the city has passed so I put it in but so that wouldn't hold up in court i I I'd rather doubt that to be the case cuz you you're essentially saying we're giving you a
temporary variance cuz the only if you give a and and if you there is such a thing as a temporary variance okay um but that's not the case for these these are these variances granted run with the land the only time that they're going to be affected and variances last in
perpetuity if you exercise it it stays with the land then considered more of a conforming use because they establish the criteria that they're entitled to the variance if they don't do the project and the law changes again for that district and the and the and the
standards become more conservative then you have grounds to say you should have acted on your variance because now you have you haven't built the house with the 10-ft versus the required 15 but now uh we have it 20 foot setbacks it's a
little different you have to come back when is a use considered abandoned the only well that is a whole other can of worms abandon chapter of law abandonment of uses and not abandonment of non-conforming uses is one thing
abandonment of variances is another there has to be outward signs that there was a clear-cut intent intent to abandon uh and they say "Well it's subjective." Well no it's really not because everybody that comes in here and says "I didn't abandon my variance."
Nobody's going to come in here and say "It intended to abandon my variance." But they wouldn't be asking you to extend it it's so they could say all they want words are hollow you got to show me by your actions what did you do you know what did you do you know did if you tore down the
building you're in trouble well the house has been sitting there say vacant for three years no it used to be a three family yes does that convert now to No because if the house classic case is Bobinsky okay it was a tack farm up in
northern New Jersey Bergen County way back i think it was Bergen uh it was a non-conforming use having a horse farm with a with a tax shop okay but if you went there it was the farmer still maintained it had the building
looked the way it looked had a old sign on a window you went inside it still had counters they just weren't active it was aband was that way for 20 years court said no it still looks like a horse farm it still looks like a tax shop there was no intent to abandon non-use is not the
dispositive criteria for abandonment so if it's a three family it still looks okay it's not boarded up it's not falling down what if it is boarded up well if it's boarding down and falling down then you've got outward signs possibly depending upon the facts
it's going to be dependent upon the facts because then it's maybe here the city can can mandate unoccupied buildings to the city has an ordinance that said if a building is not occupied for x amount of time it's considered abandoned that ordinance is absolutely uninforceable in a court of law say a
hotel was converted to uh some type of spa okay wait converted we don't know how it was converted And it's now a spa we don't hotel you can't rent a room you
can't stay there you can stay there but it's not a hotel anymore it's a spa so how is that not also a hotel uh that's a good question right but and I don't want to refer to any
situation but so um sometimes uses are not simply one thing right um a spa could be an accessory
incidental activity occurren at a hotel if adding a spa to a hotel no room conforming use that might be an expansion of a non-conforming use did they convert or add this other use to their non-conforming use without
getting a zoning permit so you can get a treatment and spend the night quite often hotels are small right especially modern day even so you know a lot of depends what about what else so
it's not an abandoned use of a hotel that depends on it's fact sensitive what else is happening there what's what is actually going on are they still advertising rooms for a lot of things also hinge on as far as abandonment it
seems so subjective what's abandoned though is my point no well you got to look at the evidence You have to see outward they're going to sit there everybody's going to sit on this side of this table and tell you they did not intend to abandon the non-conforming use or they wouldn't be
here right okay fine now show me show me yeah am I still advertising rooms for rent or you have a merkantile license for a hotel and all that has that been kept up to date you still have rooms yeah do you still have rooms for
rent and all that if they still maintain the hotel features and they have the merkantile license it's not a matter of whether or not anybody's renting any rooms in there but if they're still paying the licenses they're still operating they're still in the old phone book or wherever you look now for a
phone number online and you know Google it whatever um you know if all that evidence is there you say "Okay it's no different than the Bobinsky's Farm Tax Shop the fact that they're not using it does not make it abandoned." Time is not
the dispositive issue they go in there they rip out the kitchens it's a three family house they're claiming they got a three family house there's no more kitchens in there the windows are broken and everything else they can say "Well we were going to redo it but we ran out of money and there was a recession and
there was co and there was this." You say "Well that's a then you decide whether or not you buy that if you buy it okay if you don't you abandon it." W how look look at the outward signs they're clearly there factually that you have not kept up the the nonconformity
of this property you know they may have may be a COVID situation who knows what it really is you know you know if you really dug in where a lot of them come in and they say "Well our contractor how many of them bring their contractor in and tell
you that the contractor you know they always blame the contractor right you hear it all the time we told our contract the contractor went down did this and all of a sudden this came this way i guarantee you you subpoenaed those contractors they if you got them in here all the major the vast majority of them
are going to say I never said that i never told them that and then you got a disparity between the two witnesses but how far are we going to go i mean in terms of how how much in depth are you going to take the thing yeah we had one guy who was down the
beachfront who pressed my buttons at the planning board on something one time and I said "You I want to see the contract for your sale of the property." Who did this attorney represent you no i said "I want to see your contract cuz you're
telling me you bought it this way and all that there has to be a representation in the contract." I did real estate law for a long time i said 'Now if you and well and I said if you if you keep pushing this button I'm going to make you bring that contract in and if necessary we'll have the chair
subpoena the attorney that represented you and we're going to find out what the attorney put in that contract but it's up to you if you want me to go down that road I will so you may want to reconsider your testimony and he reconsidered his testimony cuz I was going to call him to
task cuz if I caught him in a lie and purged himself it would have been a problem he ultimately dismissed the application john do you have any uh interesting little You've been quiet i
was uh I was up at 6:00 heading to Trent this morning for meetings all day so got it i'm tired sorry i'm not trying to bore anybody or this has been very helpful sorry for my my lack of participation and of course we we set a whole we we Don and I
and we decided we decided we're going to keep this as simple as we could because it's I've been doing this for 47 years we can this is what I do for a living and have done it for a living for a long time i still don't The one challenging
thing about Asbury Park is even at 75 having been practicing for 47 years every month I come before these boards I get hit with a new question and a challenge that I don't know the answer to and that's what keeps it interesting okay there are times I wish I say I I
want it to be routine but then I No the challenge is is you constantly expanding your knowledge this is tough stuff advocates keep it's tough finding new ways to slice the bread and I'm trying to I try to give you just enough so that
you can make intelligent decisions the wrong decision isn't the worst decision it's indecision so if you make a wrong decision so what that's what appeals are for okay so my job is to make sure that I get you the criteria that you need i'm available at any time to answer whatever
questions you have and if I don't know the answer I'll go find one and give it to you you have my cell number you call me anytime you like um same yeah I Yeah I get it it's It's tough stuff it's still challenging after 47 years you know um
we conclude though maybe you can help with the deliberation process a little bit for the board and how they Okay yeah when you're done what you should do is every decision has to be based on what you find to support your
decision you should always try and give me one or two reasons why you voted the way you voted you don't have to say "Well I disagree with the planner." You just have to say "Well I find that based on the evidence of totality this is how
I see this that you know it's been established that this is this." you vote yes or it's not been established and I find that to be uh uh most relevant to my decision it's on the record so then in your resolutions you'll always see I
create some findings of fact because I can't if we go out on appeal I learned a long time ago when I was a young attorney that if I create this beautiful resolution with all these grandiose findings of fact I had a judge lay me out in front of a whole room of
attorneys saying you know you can't do that and really laid into me and said I'll let you go this time you ever do that again I'll sanction you it has to be the findings of fact by the board not by you okay so I mean I can embellish the facts to support your votes but they
have to come from you if I just get a no no no no no or all yeses without some reasoning I have no factual basis now I've argued that I put them in there and then you review the resolutions and you have you adopt those resolutions so by
adopting it you're agreeing how I stated the facts but that's really not that's a backdoor way of me trying to protect every the decision i really should get some facts you don't have to go crazy you don't have to go into these grandiose sets of facts just give me
some supported re rationale for your decision that's all and then and then uh you vote the way you feel you know and again as I said if you vote right or wrong it doesn't matter to me because
you know I I mean I certainly want you to vote the correct way but whatever it is if you make a mistake and you get an appeal and we get reversed we next inning we'll step up to the plate and swing at the balls when they're pitching that's all you know don't don't worry don't ever let that
bother you you know I mean conscious wise you make your own decisions up but don't worry about a a decision that might get appealed and reversed if it happens it happens it happens to everybody your record Asbury Park's record over the 34 or 35 years I've been
here um in the beginning I wasn't I was I had a real bad batting average on appeals over the years they they've held up more importantly we've only had a handful of appeals which means that the decisions of the board are good
ones that that tells me if we're doing a good job if we get a lot of appeals that tells me we've got a problem okay it isn't a matter of win or lose them it's a matter of how many appeals we're doing our job people may walk out unhappy but if we're not getting a lot of appeals
we're we're doing a good job and I think I think I've seen the boards go from where they were in 95 to where they are in 25 uh and last number many years the boards have consistently done a good job
it's a This is the hardest board to be a member of because you have to make the tough decisions and you I get to go home to Tom's River even though I was I grew up here okay i don't have to go around town and see people out in the streets and have them say walk up to me when I'm
going to the dry cleaner why did you vote against me cuz they'll never have boundaries they're always going to bother you right easy answer anybody by the way ever comes up to you and says "I got this application." You see my board attorney has instructed us not to discuss anything that's past pending or
future cuz that creates conflict of interest if you have a problem call Jack Serpico let him yell at me that's what I get paid for i don't mind okay speaking of conflicts of interest you're up on a board you're
there to make the tough decisions true conflict of interest is simple financial friends family you're a member of the church and you're an active congregant of the church or congregation fine indirect conflicts is if somebody's
a good friend and somebody or somebody talks to you they've tainted you at a party or something like that that could be an indirect conflict of interest anytime you have a conflict of interest when in doubt first of all call me we'll discuss it i always take the conservative approach when in doubt I'll
tell you to step down it's not worth having a case and somebody accuse you of being unethical or having a conflict they're not paying you enough for sitting in those seats to go through that right uh other than that unless
you've got a ethical uh objection to sitting on a case should sit on it and vote on it one way or the other call the tough ones even if they're borderline strikes or balls a conflict could also exist if say they
are working with a professional that you Oh yeah yeah i get friends family business associates commercial relationships anything you know what all of our parents taught us the difference between right and wrong and we don't have to have somebody tell us when we're wrong when we do something wrong there's
that little voice in your head that that tells you you did something wrong if you think you've got something that's developing that could be a conflict step aside it's the easiest thing to do just like when they ask me about ethics or John went to law school they gave you this ethics book this big in the end it
always turns out to be what is your gut reaction to this should you touch this or not and if the answer is no chances are you shouldn't do it it's and that's the simple rule that I've worked with for my entire career u and that'll keep us all out of trouble okay i'm always
going to tell you step aside or within 200 ft of the property oh for sure then you have then you're then you're not a non-interested party because you're within the 200t distance yeah and that's uh the basics
in a nutshell in a uh two-hour nutshell thank you you're welcome nobody Nothing else yeah please and we can keep going no no no but call me if you have questions do not hesitate to call me i do have one question so if
somebody does come in front for like multiple things can you approve some not others or Sure how to like condition specifically individually determined okay each case rises or falls on its own merch you will see the same attorneys you will see the same architects i mean
it's more so at the planning board obviously yeah um and many of the applications will seem similar yeah yeah um because again zoning board you're only dealing with certain types of cases expansions and non-conforming
use use density um and those you know uh incidental setback bulk things um so um you may get a feeling of repetition but everyone is
on its own evaluate again all those criteria credibility of the evidence credibility of the witness and again we don't get them like next to each
other right applications are happening all over the city it's rare for us to get applications in the like literally in the same neighborhood on the same street um so those those simple differences
will totally affect how you evaluate each application well not so much different applications but like if one person comes home but like multiple variances or multiple issues where they're not necessary applicant or attorney you talk about the applicants themselves um either well the attorneys
are just people seek them out because they feel they're good at what they do and they get good results right no I'm more so speaking about like if there's different variances that are needed or like you know multiple variances for different things on the property like I want a pool and there's impervious
coverage issues but then I also want that deck or whatnot um essentially like if they put it as one applicable reasons whether it's over the course of a year or like the same meeting um like what's is it in the way that they presented that we have to
choose we've had applications where you know somebody did something they got an approval they built their thing and then they came back a couple years later and said I want to do this thing now you know again you just from
scratch within the same application they're asking for multiple points of relief within one application correct so if they were to hand me hand us something well this is what I want to do based on how they're submitting that application like do we have the leeway
to say yes to this no to that or is it based on the application do we approve it each individual like the setback may be valid right based on what they're doing but the coverage might be too much
after the you say look I I hear you okay I'm okay with this or the whole thing but I'm not okay with that okay or and then you're giving them a chance to say why don't we go back to the drawing board possibly come back without those
things if you get a consensus from the board good attorney sitting over here is going to get a consensus okay you start to see a case going in a certain direction you see that three out of the four things are okay but that one four thing putting that example pool equipment putting it 6 in under the
neighbor's window just isn't going to work uh I'd say I need I need 5 minutes i talked to my client we got to come back with a new new design we're we're we're we're ahead on three counts but we're going to get nailed on this other one and if you insist on the whole thing being voted on at once you're going to
lose because they're going to turn the whole package down because of this one feature so that's something you know you can you tell them you know you're you're in the position of authority you tell them how you feel and uh that's where the compromising comes in right but it's
because the combination of things is like totality of circumstances right yeah cool thank you sure that we do get a lot of yeah you'll get a lot of that yeah it's sometimes nine variances all in the same
application yeah I just don't know if we have or if we had the latitude to say yes to it or if it was strictly based on how they wanted it yeah you could say look if you you're asking us to if they get some negotiation yeah yeah there
there's a little give and take here okay there's an art to it as well as a science okay um but again if you see the package and you say "Look I'm I'm" You be straight with them say "I'm I'm comfortable with this comfortable with the swimming pool i'm not comfortable
with this." And if they push the button and can say then okay I'll vote on all of them and then they'll get a turnown and if the lawyer was sitting next to them was smart he would have he or she would have called an adjournment and said "It's time to
But you can also say you know um you know I'm good with the setback thing i I might have a problem on this side is there a way to like if we do something and that eliminates the setback problem?" Yeah it might increase the building coverage you know is that that
might be a more acceptable tradeoff based again what our hardship is on our lot um because again most of these are going to be I I can't make my property any bigger right the house is where it is these are hardships yeah quite often you may recommend what
you might recommend maybe an additional variance but it's a better design it's a better layout on the land it's it's much better from a zoning and planning perspective so doesn't impact the neighbors it doesn't impact negative it's a very minor situation as a matter of fact it's
an improvement why not it's a win-win it's a win for the applicant it's a win for the city and the neighbors sure thank you sure all right so um 9:05 uh you guys want to call it do you
want to do another one of these in two months are laws going to change well we got to we got to figure out how to get everyone the notice out to the public quite often the public is noticed
they don't attend but if you're noticed I would think that you'd go to the planning board and make comments as individual citizens you can't go to the planning board and make a comment and say "Well I'm a member of the zoning board blah blah and say stop right there." You know tell you're you live in the community what is it you don't like
about these ordinances changes that are come across or what are you what do you say what do you want to say about it but you can't represent that it's a zoning board you represent as a individual property owner still the same net net difference but it doesn't want to look like Yeah it's not a question of whether I like them or not it's just a question
of having the information to be able to do this job properly and and professionally how often are we supposed to review the zoding officers done i I really don't know the answer to that question so the board does its annual review of its actions i know we did that but you you
guys are basically left out of the the process for ordinance amendments master plan you're active citizens right um as part of the activities that the city undertook with doing the ordinance amendments they wanted to
include you but obviously not the entire entire world um and and like I said we're going to we're going to have ordinance amendments this year hopefully by the end of the year um I can certainly you know keep you guys apprised of what the scope of those are
so that um when they do get to planning board or governing body if you have you know opinions about them great if not you know at least you have the information oh I know that's coming that annual
we're going to make the setback for garages 10 ft the annual report we're going to outlaw second floor balconies on the front of the building pay more attention fences right up on the more common in there fences what right on the rightway in the front yard 6 ft
18in setback instead of 1 foot setback um I I think actually one of the things is um going to be counting swimming pools as imperous coverage so that may be um of interest because I
suspect that would generate a lot more activity here that's interesting yes I didn't hear that it's on the list oh that doesn't that sounds like a pain but again it's one of these things you know we're seeing activity in the zoning
office where you know Michelle is kind of going "Wow everybody's backyard is pool there are a lot of people putting pools in it's their whole backyard." Yeah when I was growing up no one in this town had
pools well I mean that's also a modern phenomenon yeah that's what I'm saying it's just it's trends it's It's all Well that also came with a whole CO situation that you're at station now right right yeah plus not everybody goes to the beach right some people want to Why do you live in Asbury Park
i don't know so so yeah so that might um be a thing that might surprise you as you start to see applications coming why are we dealing with pools yeah um but there's some other things that are also just administrative we're going to tighten up things like the how
long a zoning permit is valid for and how long you know other approvals are valid for and um that you need a zoning permit basically for everything right now it says only in association with a building permit and you need a zoning
permit whether you need a building permit or not for certain doesn't have an ordinance if you do a title transfer the toot includes a zoning permit a review of the zoning file it's a policy okay it's not a regulation so yes things like that are are going to get further cleaned up just for curio out of
curiosity who's pushing the non-pervious pool change i I don't know i don't know is that the is that to slow the production of pools going in in town or is it really from I think it's off point of view or what's the basis of that i I
think again it's part of the It's probably water right if our whole backyard that every lot is storm water management it may be starting to have an impact on how storm water runoff is happening block so I again I've only
heard the request to add it to the list i don't know where it originates fully on what the trigger was like who said you know we should be looking at this it would have to be storm water management it's possible storm water well as a pool
owner I can tell you it's not the pool it's the hardscape it's the It's the decking around it well again there's a couple of schools of thought on this because every town regulates it differently um some towns do count the
pool the entire pool surface toward impervious coverage others only count the coping um but some people want to put an entire their entire backyard as as right or you know they may be very house large on a
normal lot and so how does that affect the coverage overall and then they can't have anything else so um again I don't know what the trigger is i've just been told added to the list look at making pools i can understand
when a pool is closed how it would not be impervious i mean I lived in Florida for 7 years you know it rained a lot you know if you had your if your pool was low and it rained 5 in it didn't matter
but if your pool is not low and it rained five inches because it rained five inches yesterday you know it's everywhere in your yard your neighbor's yard their pool is running into your pool is running across my yard across that yard i I don't think we have that kind of
rainfall problem here those are more extreme events but you know five inches of rain in central Florida is not that unusual interesting um but yeah so there's you know and other things that have just come as part of planning and zoning is reactionary we
generally do things because people come up with new ways of doing things wanting things right pools pools are now the thing that people talating so if water goes in water goes
out and it's self yeah there are far more pools in the probably in the last 10 years than pools were being built in the 10 years prior tennis courts were big in the 70s yeah basketball courts were big in the 80s yeah i I lived in
Elberon in the 1980s so we come up with regulations you know trends happen we can set the level of it very neat well thank you very much you're welcome anyone else have any questions before we conclude
thank you Jack thank you Donna you're welcome and again my apologies i'll make a motion to the meeting all in favor i opposed good night thank you thanks for listening