So, welcome everybody. Today is Thursday, July 24th, and this is a meeting of the senior center site selection and building committee. This meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice. Members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting. Please
note note that while an option for remote attendance and/or participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public, the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law. Members of the public
with a particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly. This meeting will be live on Zoom. The public may access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID 375-4146055 or by calling 9292056099.
For additional information about remote participation, please contact Harley, assistant town manager at atmirair.mma. us or 978-7728220 extension 100 prior to the meeting. So,
I call us to the border at 6:06 p.m. Thank you everyone for being here. Um, >> yep. So, um, do we have any, uh, can I get a
motion to approve the agenda as >> second? Um, committee tonight. So, we'll just go around. >> Yeah. Dan, hi. Dan looks like he's at the beach.
>> I wish. Yeah. All right, Dan, you you I are you approving the agenda? >> I Okay, Ken. Hi, >> Dave. Hi, >> Linda. >> Hi, Dennis. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Okay, chair says I. Thank you. All
right. Um, that brings us to approval of minutes, clerk. >> Okay. Um, we're probably a couple meetings behind now, so let's meet up and see what we can put our heads together to get caught up. Um
okay. So that that brings us to um the real meat of tonight's meeting is a discussion of last night's um select board update and um any next steps that
need to come um from that in terms of um budget. I I does it make sense to go around and have everyone reflect upon what they heard? Do we feel like we all heard the same thing? Uh
>> um needless to say, I was disappointed. Um and um it's not clear to me. It appears that the select board has dug in on
this project being too expensive or too large or more than the town needs. It's unclear to me that any of those things are true. Um, and none of the arguments I heard from the select board
uh were convincing to me. that is why it's too big, why it's too expensive, why the town doesn't need it. Uh the fact that the town would not support it. Uh from my view, those were mere assertions
by board members without any substantive meat behind it other than this is what I think. Um, and it's not clear to me that if we present
what we have learned over the last year and a half or so to each of those board members on a, you know, point by point rebuttal that they would move off their view. Oh, >> so I I would concur with that and we can
go around or bounce off that just that um I think we I went into the meeting with the idea that uh we heard them from the last time we did make some changes and
we also got uh support for town adding town resources into it. Um, I went into the meeting thinking that there would be some sort of coming to a compromise or, you know, a resolution with where we are. Um, I didn't feel that, you know,
as you're saying, I I didn't feel like that was where we were at all. It's clear. Um, I I do think that there's I'm concerned that there there's not a a value, right? Um there's always a
balance of what you value and what you can afford and all those things, but uh to to your point, logic based rebuttals didn't get us anywhere in November. They don't get us
anywhere. They didn't last night. So to me, I think we either need to change the project or we need to figure out how others besides us
can help establish value. And one of that one of those solutions is far easier than the other. Um so or some combination of both. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. Any other thoughts?
>> I think what I heard was they've got 10 million and that's it. Period. They're not going to budge left or right. It's we have to come in at 10 million for the debt exclusion for them to even
consider it going forward. Regardless of what the professionals say or what Catlin says or what anybody says there, this is it. And if we want this to go forward, we have to come up. We have to figure out how we're we're going to bring the
cost of the building down to that 10 million or they're not going to put it on the warrant and we're going to be spinning our wheels until spring and then come spring the cost is going to go up even higher. So, we're going to have to build an even smaller building to get it back to the cassad. I don't think
they're going to come off that 10 million. So if we want this to go forward, we have to figure out some way to trim costs. >> Yeah, I agree with that. >> So we that trim cost to fill the gap
somehow, right? Because 10 million it's uh they they're one of their messages over and over was impact on the taxpayer. Well, 10 million is the same impact whether we reduce, you know, it's 10 million's they kept saying bring the cost down. Well, still 10 million is still going to the same cost to the
taxpayer. >> Um, you know, they're reduced the size of the building, which I don't think they I don't think they are taking the effort to understand where we came up with our cost and the size. Um, you know, they keep saying it's too I I hear it's too
large. Well, what does that mean? And is that five people saying that or is that 500 people saying that? So like we we'd probably have to go out and get the 500 people to say no, we believe this is the right size. We believe this is what the community wants. They are not in to me
listening to them and couple comments um from one of the select board members. Um you don't you don't build for then you build for now. And I don't see that as a plan for an investment in a town. You
don't think when you go to build a school, okay, we have x amount of kids, we're just going to build for that. You look at all the data, which we everyone's been looking at. Um Katie, you have all the details on, you know, seniors, their life expectancy, what they need, our needs are different. Um I
think they're dismissing that. I don't think they are really, they say, oh, we want to see this project go through. I don't feel that they're strongly committed to um doing something for the seniors. I don't think they're against it. feel we don't want it at all. But um you know and then the the person on
Zoom's comment, you know, about the size again, it's Yeah. Yeah. Anything we build is going to be bigger than this. >> Um but it's not like we we're building a resort for seniors. We're building something for their needs and that's what they're not understanding. They think we're going all, you know, all in
and getting the best of everything and talk the line and add all the extra rooms. Uh to another select board member's comment, um uh I feel like he thinks we're building this too big, so we're gonna have rooms sitting empty until we need them. And I know we address that,
>> right? >> Yeah. >> And I think that message, no, we did our homework. We're listening to the experts and we're building what we feel is the best investment for the town now and in the future. This is what we need now.
It's not what we want or should. It's it's what we do need. So, and again, I was disappointed kind of like in the whole tone of the meeting. I you know, personally, I felt like we're being scolded. You know, I just I I don't I'm not used to meetings like
that, I guess. >> Understand. Agreed. Agreed. And understand, >> um I found it disappointing. I apologize for getting um upset at some of the things that were said about do we really
need more than two rooms and um uh any role now. So I realize I shouldn't have jumped up to speak. I should have let some of the people who were there from the town speak and um and express their
approval of the design and approval for what's happening instead of just the idea that um there's some people there are people who think it's the Taj Mahal and all of this. Now I of the two people that were there that live in my complex
I asked them what was their what was their feedback about it >> and they said they were surprised at the tone that the selectman took. >> Very cool >> and that from the minute the the um uh chair started talking they knew that her
mind was pretty much set that this was not going to go forward and they were surprised. So they they feel she has constituents and maybe her constituents are telling her, "No, we really don't like this." So she's trying to be >> sure, >> she's trying to be responsive to them
and um she wants something that she can say, "I went to vet for you all and I got them to make it smaller and cheaper." You know, like that's the win for her. So um I mean I think she's doing what she thinks is the right thing
for her town, too. I'm not saying she is, but it was uh frustrating. I do think in the future we should have one person from the committee, representative committee who speaks instead of all of us going in and repeating some of the things that we've
said so many times and it doesn't make any difference anyway. >> So, um >> especially if there are members of the public that want to speak last night and express their support. I felt, you know, I went home, but you know, so, um, I
think we're going to have to, even though I love the building, I think it's right, I think we're going to have to make some cuts. Um, I think we need to get the price down at least a million and an hour.
Um, because it wasn't just that we were at 10 million. I mean, even with all the support we've already gotten, we had 12 something. So, uh, and I don't know, you know, we don't know if the grants are going to come through. We don't know if we're going to get any fundraising
stuff, you know, with the time that we have. Um, I think we've got to look at what can we do realistically and not just cut some corners, but you know, um, I hate to do it, you know, but, um,
something's got to give because I don't think they're they made it pretty clear that they want to see some changes. >> Sure. Great. Thank you. >> Dan, did you have anything you wanted to add? >> Uh, yeah, you can hear me, right? Good. Yeah.
>> Yeah. All right. Good. Um, yeah, I agree with Ellen there. You know, I think I just think I I kind of agree with the select board that if this goes to town meeting, maybe it'll pass town meeting, but I don't see this passing the ballot. And what do we do, you know, once this fails, then what do we do? So, you know,
I think I think the right move is to make, you know, to look relook at the design, find where we could potentially have some cuts, make some savings, do another look there. it'll go well with the public. Um, but you know, I think kind of and I think too we're talking
about public outreach, but you know, I don't know if we want to go out too hard at least with any numbers or anything, but maybe we need to get some feelers out there on the building and what it looks like now. Um, because, you know, next time we go for public outreach, you probably want to have the right number going to town meeting. Um, but those are
kind of my initial thoughts. Um, yeah. Okay. All right, Ken. >> So, there's it's needless to say we're very disappointed. Um, I think the thing that's interesting, there's a lot of things that are interesting about this dynamic. My biggest disappointment is that
sweatboard not to attend any of these meetings at all. So, that we could have got maybe the solid feedback as we were going along, as we matured through the process. It would have been better for us to stay closer to them, I guess, during the process. There's no question we come out of it. It's we're not going to get that amount of money. So, they're
going to have to find cuts. I have some ideas for that. But the thing that bothered me the most is the fact that he made these comparisons to Littleton. How big is a Littleton project? Us taxpayers may not be. I don't buy that at all. I think the town of has a strong financial
background. We know it. And it can afford whatever Littleton can afford, Rotten can afford. And it's not based on resident tax base. It's based on commercial and industrial tax base. They're focusing always on a few people, you know, that that made comments from the residential tax base. But the real
story in here is our benefit is the commercial and industrial tax base, which will pay for more than half of this building. That's a hard sell. It's very difficult for people to understand that. There's no question in my mind that we're going to have to lower the price that I agree with 100% with Linda.
It's the bond. I actually was happy to come out of there with the fact that the bond I was kind of unsure that the bond thing at 10 million would stay. So I was happy to come up. This looks like a knowledge that that they're willing to do we're all willing to do the 10 million with the bond and then the idea
potentially that we would get into more more funds potentially from capital stabilization fund and from UDE neither of which are guaranteed but it that potentially gets us up to like 13.5 million. I think we have to be the other disappointment is that you come out of
there and they don't tell us what their expectation is. So if you do it for 14.5 million, we'll support it. Nobody says that. They say we'll support the bill. If you want to see a senior Senate, I think we need a more solid commitment that no matter what you do, don't make
it more than 14.5 million. Don't make it more than 14 million, whatever it is. And we then will have to the task of trying to get that number to work. There's a complete misunderstanding about the square footage of the building, what that's worth versus the square foot, the total project cost.
There's no question there's a misunderstanding there. They think that all the savings is in the building. We know the savings is not just going to be in the building. We have to look at every single line item from the architect to the OPM to the site work to the water. Every single solitary item
this committee has an obligation to look at and start with the budget. Figure out where we can go to get that number down. It's definitely incorrect that we can make all the savings in the building. It will never happen that way. The building is not a big enough piece of the whole
project. So there's a definite misunderstanding about that. We need to clarify that as we go forward that the whole project includes so many pieces that add up to that total. So just by concentrating on cutting the size of the building will not do the trick. That
will not take enough turn and it'll still be a lot of money. Look, the other thing that was interesting was when we left the meeting, I heard comments, you know, from folks that attended and was very interesting that the first person that was identified by the select board was
Pauline rather than 25 or 30 people who were sitting in the room who were there to support the project. The concept that the select board had talked to several people in the community, I don't know what that number is. Is it 20? We could have had more potential voters in the room last night that support it than
have already been talked about by the selector. I have no idea what that number was because they never indicated. We've talked to a hundred people. We've talked to 20 people. We've talked to three people. So, we don't really know where that opposition is and where those votes of those negatives are coming
from. But we certainly know that we had 25 people in the room last night that are voting yes. Most something like 25. I'm guessing at the count, but I think it's about 25. So there's a misunderstanding of where the votes are coming from. There's a misunderstanding on the price. We have to clarify that.
No question about it. And our task, I think, is to get I don't think there's any way that that we're going to get it over 14 million. Just to throw the number out there. That gives us a chance to get from 10 with the capital stabilization and with the UDA and then
have a a small 500 or so that we have to raise something along those lines, you know. It's just coming up with a kind of round fees. And when I say that, I'm not talking about taking it out of the building necessarily. I some I have ideas for that they're going to talk about later. But what I'm saying is we
need to look at every single line item in the project where that falls and how it how it's been addressed. I'm going to say it with the other line on on the phone right now. about the the the input from the OPM. I
am at a complete misunderstanding about $1,000 a square foot as I pointed out last night of savings per every square foot that you cut. And I've had a complete misunderstanding where somebody come up with a number that says 30 and $50 million 30 to $50,000. We can
redesign and come up with a whole >> that's ridiculous. Yeah. >> I just know I don't know where the numbers came from. I'm just I must have missed it somehow when I was in the room with Robin because that's what happened. I missed it. Um but anyhow, >> so I think the important thing for us in the long run is we have to make changes
to the building. We have to make changes to the site. We may have to turn around and say, you know what, we're not going to put in a brick patio. We're going to put in a lawn for now. Brand new comes later. That saves us whatever it is, $60,000. We're going to have to go item by item by item to get that number down.
So I I'm sorry. >> I mean is it all right if a citizen >> Yes. >> Sure. >> I I just you know having been on the board of select then for you know six years. I was I was really appalled by
the way the meeting was run. you know, I mean, you pointed out that the first person that that was invited to speak other than um and the two of you, it was somebody on, you know, and and the other thing is that as soon as positive
statements were started for the project from from the citizens immediately, >> not enough time >> there there there wasn't enough time. People were not heard. You know, I've never been in a a selectton meeting before where the citizen citizens were
cut off at that. Uh I I just thought the meeting was run poorly. I mean, clearly there was no response to Katie's presentation. It was response that it was like you know response that had already been decided before any
presentation was made >> and um you know no consideration for what this committee has done and all the work that that you all have put into it. So you know as a citizen I am really
really unhappy with the board. We have Robert. >> Um, see anything? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm here. Um, I think I mean, I think we can be frustrated with
the board and, you know, I don't think it does us any good to do a lot of talking and bashing of them right now. I think we got to move forward with our focus and try to find out how can this be successful at town meeting. Um, you know, and I think Janice made a good point and it was like with the storm
water, you answer all the questions before the town meeting. So, we got to get to that point. We got to figure out how we can get there. Make sure that when you go into town meeting, we are ready. You know, we we have a very good knowledge that, hey, this is going to pass. And the ballot's probably the hardest part. So, that's the one we really got to make sure. Um, so I think
we got to kind of focus our efforts there. But, um, that's just from what I'm hearing, I was thinking. >> So, do we want So, Is the consensus that we need to start working on the changes that we we want to make to the to the
budget as a as a whole? If if so, I think we should move in that direction for the rest of the meeting. If Dennis is saying no, what about the rest of the >> Well, I think we have to. It would be helpful, like Ken said, if we knew what the number was.
>> Yeah, >> that's what we didn't get. You know, we don't >> we're working towards something. We don't know what it is because >> the the twist to this is that this committee was formed to do the job that we did. It was formed to determine what the requirements of the town were. It
was the all the size the whole thing. We did all of that. Then we came ran up against a number that's too high. Would have been actually better if we said you know what we got to build a $10 million center or something like that. We would have just done it from the beginning. So, a couple of things and to I think
Dave's point, what I was hearing last night is not only do they think that the building is too large or it's too expensive >> the project they should be saying, >> but that they are I would not be surprised if they reneg
on some of the commitments in terms of our access to UDAG funds or capital stabilization funds. um because I wasn't only hearing from them that the the tax impact was, you
know, too high, but rather >> we don't need all that. That is the building the the attributes of the building were too extravagant. They were unnecessary to meet the needs of the community. So, I could easily see us
coming in with, okay, we found the money, no more than a $10 million debt exclusion, and still hear that the building is too large. We don't need two stories. Um, and
so, so there's that. Um, >> and that's the kind of >> we don't have >> what I was speaking to at the beginning is that I think we do have two tasks at hand. We need to make concessions be they in the building, in the site or in
the soft costs and probably across all three of those. >> But I do think we also need to do work both in terms of the public outreach but also one-on-one in really establishing the value. And I thought that we had
established that value early on with our public outreach that was happening in the fall. I think we heard last night that there are, as you said, concerns about size, concerns about price, and ultimately that comes down to concerns about value. So, I do think we have to do two of those. I think we can make
significant headway or at least get the conversation started on potential areas for the the budget. I think that the value thing is going to be a more involved discussion over
>> a couple meetings. The assertions that we hadn't done enough outreach or that the public were not well informed >> or that no one knew about it are just were just clearly untrue. That is there
were numerous occasions the large forum up in the town hall that had 40 or 50 attendees. um the meetings that uh we had at the library where we ran into a few um and the new you know there were many others and
>> we had over we had 12 with over 300 people right 323 323 >> so there was no rebuttal to the assertions coming from the select board >> right >> so that assertion lies out there in the
ether that they haven't told anybody about My anecdotal information from having been at many of those public forums is that while there was some skepticism, I would say 60 65 maybe 70% was
generally positive about moving forward. >> We did poll. We did take a poll. I was watching body language as I when people asked questions or if they had some skepticism and I was explaining how we arrived at the number or how we arrived at the size or whatever. the the body
language I was receiving was nodding and like oh thank you for filling me in on that versus no you know so people were receptive to it and then we did take just and obviously you don't know what people will do in the ballot box by themselves but the straw pull of hands
was I would say probably around 75 to 80% um in support of it so it was um and keeping in mind like >> who was at at the meeting so Um but it was about 75 to 80% positive. So um
if they wanted to add >> Oh, what just happened? I think sorry I think I just turned our video off. >> Okay. >> One thing that's evident to me this project is extremely complicated.
It's so complicated in fact that we will never never be able to explain. >> Hey Katie, we've been cut off somehow. >> The whole never be able to explain the whole >> sound. >> So people can think about the building. >> Yeah, we lost the owl. I think
>> I'm working on it. There's no there's a 100 moving parts. What we do, >> if we can get it to the price and get convince them that this is a project that's worth that price, we're never going to get into the weeds of of the whole kitchen design, you know, for instance, and all the other stuff.
There's just too many pieces. So, no matter what, there's going to be a requirement of somewhat of a leap of faith for the voters that this is this is what you need. This is the concept. You worked on it for three years. I just don't want to sit here beating a dead horse.
>> We know what they want. >> They told us before and they didn't tell us. >> They told us again. >> Well, when we left, they would >> after they did all their stuff, the funding gap was $2.1 million. So, at the minimum, we have to get rid of $2.1
million just to bring it to where >> we would meet. >> So, >> that's 14 million, right? Isn't that add up to about 14 million? >> How we might structure approach some of those things?
>> Oh, I'm sorry. Robert, I didn't see you. No, no, that's a mic for sure. >> Brian, did you want to add anything? >> I didn't Yeah, I didn't hear what was said there. I was I was just saying, you know, and
maybe John wants to start any any suggestions for how we begin this process. >> I would I would pipe in here just for a moment and say, is it a consensus in this committee that
the town originally committed to 14 to 14.5 million? Is that is that correct? >> We haven't been talking. >> Am I wrong on that? That's the way to go. >> That's not correct. The number that the town has been aware of since your initial estimate was 16.6.
>> No, that's not my estimate. I did not estimate that number. Had nothing to do with it. That came out of the OPM. >> Well, that's and you just got a document from me showing how that was wrong or not not from us.
>> Nothing to do with the 15 million. the final the final. >> Well, so I think >> the advertisement for the OPM had 16 million in it. >> I don't know who who came up with it. Not from me. >> Yeah, it was before we were on board. So, >> yeah. >> Um, >> so I think the original the original
estimate was at the total project cost >> was at 16.6 six. And then at some point in back in February, John, you and Ken sat down together and we worked on efficiencies, squared off the back of the building, and then like you said,
that number came down um considerably from there, and that was the number we were working from. So, I think >> Yeah. But but here's here's where the issue is. I got a spreadsheet. It came through the OPM, and I and I apologize.
because I didn't know the OPM was told that was at at the time it was advertised 16 million but the spreadsheet came out giving a $16.5 million number which was all kinds of problems with it was never
floated in front of us. Um I reviewed it just the other day and um and responded to that. Now, nobody has to agree with my response, but I can tell you right now there's a number of numbers in there that were nowhere in our estimates to
come up to 16 million. So, I I I was telling Ken the other day that the town says we have and and let's just do it for argument sake. You have 14.5 million period total all in. That's our job. We have to bring it in at that. If it's
$10.5 million, it's going to be more difficult, but that's our job. So right now we put a number out there. I believe it was not at the time when we finalized with the town that was 16. It was more like maybe a little over somewhere under
15. Um this is the town's response to it. But the problem is the number in front of them is 16.5 million. I this firm had nothing to do with that number at the at the present stage. And uh we responded
to that just the other day and I think everybody got a little output from that for discussion only. It's not it's not our absolute take on it. It's just that right now you know FF& is way out of
line. Um some of the fees are out of line. Um contingency was out of line. So, and and I think what hap needs to happen between the architect and the OPM and somebody from the committee is to sit down and walk through that number. I
think that's the answer. But if somebody says the town says and and I don't know whether they're willing to say this, you got $14.5 million. That's this committee's job to make that number. >> I don't think I ever heard that. It'd be nice to get something from the select
board to um give us a ground to work towards and after that that's our job. >> Okay. So, so we don't have that number. So, are we waiting till their August meeting and
asking to go back for a Chrome number that they would like us to go to or do you want to start this process now? >> No. No. >> John has >> the number I have is 14.5 million. That's the number I understood.
>> We know that we're getting right now like 2 million from the stabilization and 1 million from you, Dad. >> We don't know. That's that's proposal and they didn't nobody fought with that. >> And then there was another there were a couple of other grants. So that's three
>> couple of other grants. I think one of them was 500,000. I mean we can't some of them are not definitely have some um >> uh ear marks, >> right? And so some of those things, it's a matter of when they're available. And
and it's, as I said last night, it's very difficult to have this black and white number because there's a lot of moving parts to any municipal building project. It's rarely just one source of funding. So if you look back at the uh one we had from our last meeting, the
single page or the um >> the one you put up on the board >> or the Yeah, the one that was in the presentation. um shows a a range of funding gaps between
700,000 and 2.5 million, right? because that went from not having any UDAG fun or not having any CDBG grant and taking no ad alternates the funding shortfall at the 10 million was 700,000
all the way up to the more dismal picture of getting no CDBG grant and taking all of the ad alternates including them all and then that was a budget shortfall of 2.5 million. So that's where we're at like without
increasing >> I can't get argumentative here but look we can't talk about a budget shortfall because we don't know what the GD budget is. >> Yeah. Can I c can I just say something and and I don't want to put any words in Robert's mouth, but I was at a meeting
where we were told that it was comfortable a comfortable number was between 14 and 14.5 million for this project. I I I have to go back in the meeting notes, but we took that I wrote that down and we were working towards
that. That's why I was surprised to see a number getting floated in front of the selectmen recently at 16.5 million because that was not the budget that I understood it to be. I understood to be somewhere in the $14 million range with
$10 million being borrowed and the other four million coming from various other funds. Now, I I could be wrong in that, but I'm pretty sure I I have it in my notes and I don't have them with me, but um we could look those up. I I
>> I think you're right, John. You know, we've always known 10 million from um the town meeting ask and it was kind of that that capital planning meeting back in January. We kind of got the directive. Yeah. 2 million, you know, >> two 1 million from UDAG, 2 million
capital stabilization, etc. A few others potentially we get some grants. We've always known 10 million is what we want to aim for for the ask. So, I think what you're saying makes sense, John. Yeah, I I was aiming for 14 to 14.5 million. And by the way, I I don't know how the selectman will take this, but I
I mentioned this on a phone call today saying if you go if we if we agree as a committee and and I'm not part of the committee, but I'm you as a committee agree that this building and project
including the uh cost of bringing in utilities from far away has to be under $14.5 million. That's our job, you know, and I think we can do it. I don't see a problem with that. It's not unreasonable at all. So, I think one of the
constonnations that we're experiencing here is that the select men are looking at 16.5 million saying we're we're not going to support that or or whoever votes for me will not support that. But I'm not sure we're in front of them with 16.5 million. We should be in front of
them with 14 to 14.5 million. And then they could say to us, well, it should really be 13. But whatever it is, we need a hard number. And the number I understood to be was 14 and a half. I may be wrong, but I think D. Um, so then
the question is we have gone from and and Ken is showing me next to him the last document that he had that was you know how there was the one page that >> C John has been giving us so far and then um Ken had kind of broken it out a
little bit more from there. I love it. >> Um and that last version does have you said 14.5 >> we've gone from 145 to 169. What's happened in the meantime is schematic design and professional cost estimation
and bringing on the OPM. So between those three things, we need to go back through and figure out where we are and >> yes, >> you know, >> absolutely completely correct. I I want to go back to that those meetings we had with
capital planning and finance is when I passed out this document which was put together by the cost from two previous Catlin buildings in the discussion with John and other soft costs. However, what happened since then was for instance I made notes on here's the here's the
document that went around was dated originally dated 114 of 25 revised 320 of 25 when we went to the different committees this number came out to 14979 but I'll give you an example when we we hired the OPM
the OPM pointed out items that we may have missed some things that that we didn't cover okay so for instance one of them is we have a we're carrying a 5% % design contingencies and $514,000. I didn't have to I wasn't aware of that thought process. So there were things
that that were new to us that came up to get us partially up to that 16 million. We had the opium. >> Well, no, no, we we carried a contingency. >> No, it was never it was never on the for what I'm getting at, John, is I'm trying to just make a point that there were items >> in your numbers. Yeah, in your numbers,
but we we >> those numbers went around and there were other things that we've learned since then. Yeah. So, we hope to get back. >> So, so the larger point is though, I'm sorry, Brian. We >> Yeah. Can if I can just chime in for one
second. So, I mean, what we were trying to do is to kind of to Ken's point is to go through based on our recent experience with senior centers, John's senior centers plus what we've done with our typical budget format to say these are things we should be thinking about. There might be cost exposure there. And
again, it might be conservative at this point until you get harder numbers as you go through the design phase. And I think what we had talked about was let's put together a budget. Let's get a real updated cost estimate because you have to remember the Wilberham project was bid four years ago. It was bid in 2022.
We're going to bid this project in 2026. So there's a huge difference in the market from then from then to now just in the construction cost. So, it's let's get a real updated estimate and see where that total project budget comes out at and then we can and then we can kind of go through category by category
and see where we need to be. Also, understanding the town's appetite for is it a $14 million project or is a $16 million project. So, if the consensus is it feels like it needs to be a $14 million project to get it get to a $10 million ask with where we are now, there
are line items that we can go through and start to reduce to get that down. However, I mean, even the ones that John had sent around in that spreadsheet, if you kind of go with those numbers, you're still chasing a million dollars roughly. You know, I'm
saying you're going to need to get a building that's down around 12,000 square feet from 133. There is going to be something in the building in the in the project cost. >> No, no. I I I I lowered it down just on soft cost alone, not on the actual building. We have a lot of things in
this building that you don't need to build right now. patios can be done better. >> That's what we have to look at. >> A lot of those things. What we want to what we don't want to do is change the size of the building. We're building for 40, 50 years from now. So, what we need
to do is look at the finishes or the outside amenities. Some of the landscape we've done buildings where we did the landscaping two years later. >> John, I agree with you. What I'm saying is square footage alone would be down to 12,000. But if there's other ways to get the building cost down and not reduce
square footage, then yes. preferable. >> Absolutely. That's the way we want to do it. >> Um, what I need to do is sit down with Matthew and and perhaps Brian here and go through those soft costs. That's the first structure. You know, things like
to be fair about it. My fee has interior design in it. So, carrying 75,000 for interior design is is a waste of money. >> Yeah. We'll take it out. Yep. >> Yeah. So, I bet nobody asked me about that. So, I think for fair for the
committee, I think Brian, you and I and Matthew and and the other Brian, two Brians, um we need to walk through those numbers, okay? And we can come to some kind of reasonable balance on that. >> That's a million two right there.
>> Again, um >> hang on, bear with me for just one second. >> That owl is really acting out. We got to get >> get a new breed. Sorry, just no one can hear. >> Sorry guys. >> Yeah,
it should come back on. All right, it's powering back on. I don't know why it keeps shorting out. >> Maybe. Maybe. In the meantime, nobody wants to see my face that close. All right. >> It looks good to me. >> All right.
>> They can't right now because when the owl goes off, it goes only to the um >> host computer. Oh, >> testing. Excuse me. >> I can hear you all.
>> Now we're Now we're better. Okay. So, John, you were saying that you guys that you need to sit down with Vertex and really hammer out some of those soft costs and then >> and then if
Robert is able to speak to it, I also like to get a um viewpoint on is the number 10 plus the million
that has been committed from UDAG or not committed but pledged from UDAG and capital stabilization because that's a $13 million project, right? Um because there's no really good way to guarantee any of those grants or any of the
fundraising in the next x number of months. So the question is it what can we really count on from the town so that we're hitting the right the right mark >> and the other thing is well I was just
going to say Robert did you want to respond to that at all? >> Hi Katie can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Yeah and apologies for some reason my camera isn't working and I hate that. I would like to have the camera on. I missed Katie. Can you just repeat that?
I'm sorry you cut out in the beginning. >> So what it what I was saying is, you know, >> John just offered to meet with Vertex to hammer out some of the soft costs to make sure that they're where they need
to be. Uh but we were talking about 16.9 versus 14.5. But what I was hoping from your perspective you could solidify is are we what is the right target? Because if the right target is the $10 million
bond plus the 2 million in capital stabilization plus the 1 million in UDAG, then even us talking about 14 or 14.5 million here is still the wrong number because there didn't seem to be any confidence in the what I'm calling
the the the wiggle room, the uncertainty piece of of the grants and the fundraising last night. So I guess I'm asking you to kind of narrow down really what is the target number we're trying to work towards.
>> So based on that the the 10 million um is a solid number. the 2 million on the capital stabilization is a solid number and I just the caveat of course is ultimately town meeting um
needs to to vote that but that is reasonable and the UDAG at a million um which the select board has to vote and can vote uh is solid. So, with those three sources, that puts you at 13
million, I think. Um, and the board did not b at any of those, as somebody said earlier, um, any of those numbers. There's no issue with those numbers. And I have said, and we didn't get into it into
great detail, but I think there's a opportunity to potentially move that 2 million to say 3 million in stabilization. I I think that puts it at sort of the ceiling and potentially the
million um on the UDAG to 1.5 million. So there's probably another 1.5 there that now that puts you at 14 a.5 million. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Thank you, Robert. >> Yep. >> So is that a solid number we can go
forward with? >> So do you feel that 14.5 is a solid number to work with? >> I do. Yes. Yes. And and if Katie just offer because after the presentation I
know everybody um left and the only thing that came up that I think you should know I think Dan knows but the committee to know is that the select board did say that they would support
within reason additional UDAG resources if some alterations need to be made that cost money and they would be prepared to take that up at their August 19th meeting.
>> When you say alter rates and you're meaning funding right now, is that what you're talking about, Robin? >> Right. What what came up is because one of the points I think that's been tried to be stressed is first of all, you can't just just cut this with a knife. pardon the expression that
>> it has to be done professionally and thoughtful. There is time to that and there may be maybe some cost to that for which right now there's no funding and they said and I asked them that if there were some funding uh within reason
needed uh for the work um they would they would take that up on August 19th which is their next meeting. I was going to send the committee a memo um to this. I just got tied up just because it they talked about it. It it
was the only thing that came up about the building just so you know after everybody left. There was no the only um point that came up cuz I asked them was if and I said if there had to be um
revisions there's an issue with funding to do that. So, can I go to Brian just for a second? Brian, the agreement we have with you expired on June 30th. Are we uh for free is at the moment? Is that the idea? >> That's the idea.
>> Thank you. >> What are we >> free? He's working tonight. He's his contract's done. >> I mean, none of the professionals on this >> on this call have >> John, right? Correct. >> John's still in he's still in schematic
design. Yeah. >> Oh, right. >> But Brian Brian's a very thoughtful man. So, >> yeah, we had we had uh if you remember, we did the the half the half month at the beginning and pushed the other half to July. So, we're we're fine for what
you need to do. >> Okay, good. So, you're not free. That's good. >> Well, well, yeah, we're we're free for July, but we pushed it. Um, John, when you say you're looking at the 145 and you think you can do it, are you assuming you're not going to have to
make any changes in the building? >> Um, no. Not not any changes in the size of the building or the programming, but there will be changes in the way we're building the building. Um, and what we're actually going to do. We We don't
need a couple good I We run into this all the time. I know Brian has, too. We have a lot of things in the building that can be done at any time. Let's say a year from now or when funding comes in on some other aspect. To give you an
idea, in the town of of of Holio, we we had originally designed a 180 uh car parking lot, but we only build it build an 80 car parking lot and a year and a half later, they came up with the
money. So that's that's that's what can be done, but we have to look around. Ken doesn't like what I'm saying, so I I'll >> No, I like what you're saying, but we need to get down to brass tax in >> Well, brass tax is Yes. 14 items completely doable.
>> The select board seems very adamant that they feel the building's too big. We may not agree with him, >> but and that's that's that is a fair point to bring up, Ellen, because what
we're doing is addressing the cost. And again, there's that piece of the value. So, if they still think the building is too big, we do run the risk that if we make cuts in that manner, no patios, no landscaping, cutting the parking, that
>> we will hit the budget, but they may still say the building is too large. that that is a potential risk. >> And part of the argument is that the buildings for 50 years out, not tomorrow, >> right? Yeah. They didn't buy. >> One of one of the things that was mentioned last night by the chairman
was, "Oh, yo, you know, we we'll build it now and put an addition on later." This will not happen. >> Never happens. Never ever happens. Never happens. >> We have underground utilities. We have a, you know, water pipe coming into the building. We have sidewalks around the
building. We have a full-blown freaking storm water system and we have a generator pad. All that stuff is coordinated close to the building. We're not going to root all that up and move it and put another >> Well, it never happens. Anyhow, as Brian was just saying, in 40 years of me doing
this pro these projects, I've had one center put an addition on even though many of them said, "Oh, we'll do it later." It never happens. In almost every one of our centers, they complain within two years they're too small. So, I mean,
>> yeah, I mean, I don't want to change it, but Robert, do you think that the select uh board if we can come up with savings in other areas that they will go ahead with the idea of the size building?
>> It's Dr. >> Yeah. through the chair up the big issue and and and the two are tied into each other when they the size it it's it's really the cost. I I believe that if you
sharpen the pencil as you're talking about and get around the 14.5 and if the building is still the same size that it is, um you'll be in good shape because the other key thing is it comes down to
the the voters, meaning at town meeting and the ballot. At the end of the day, people are going to vote. It comes down to the the the price. And that's why, you know, I said last night the the 10 million is is not an arbitrary
um number. It's based in we we want the highest likelihood of this passing and the maximum building. >> Absolutely. So I just to conclude to the chair I think if and also if if you know
the committee um which it sounds like it's prepared to do sharpens the pencil um in and find some savings and we get into that that category that area of 14 14.5 let's say 14.5
um I think you're in solid shape. So, can I I know you have some ideas about that. Do we want to get into those things line by line this evening? Do we want to wait until after John and Vertex have had their
conversation? Do we how do how does the group want to handle that? >> Well, I I'd like to the results of the conversation between Brian and John and Matt. the Matt he's referring >> Matt Sts. >> He's our project manager. You've met
him. >> Oh, I'm sorry. Matt Sturs. Okay. I thought it was a member of uh John's team. Um but um but yeah, I'd like to hear what they're when they put their minds together what they see as
um how close they can get to that. >> Well, yeah. My opinion is they should get together. Um ultimately every decision will be the decision of the committees. So the committee is still going to have an obligation to sit down and look at what they resolved and then we still have to agree
>> that that's the right number. >> Yes. >> That's right. Yeah. We're just going to come with a list. >> It's because Brian obviously has recent uh they have recent experience in Littleton and other senior centers and John has substantial experience.
>> Yeah. So they are both aware I I assume of where cuts can be made without endangering the integrity of the larger project. And um and and my biggest concern is that the size of the the
building has to be right sized not to compromise the programmatic integrity of the building and the future needs of the community. Um, and to the extent that we can get to the number while maintaining those two things, I think we're in good, you know,
>> but so quick Brian, how big is the Littleton Center? Somebody make made a question last night. >> Top of my head, I think it's 15,000 square feet. I have to look that up. >> Thought it was bigger than the number that was making.
>> What is it? I thought it was six. I thought Right. >> The building was 162 or something and the total cost was like 183 or something. >> Yeah. Total total cost was 18. I do know that. Um I can get you the square footage if you give me a minute. >> Oh, that's that's just a quickie. Um
>> I just know it's bigger than bigger than what we have. >> Oh yeah. When I look at the building, one of the main reasons, one of the main reasons we hired Catelan Architects was because we tooured buildings and most
people on the committee agreed that the finishes, the design, the layout, all of that stuff was better in a Catelyn building than other buildings that we saw. That was one of the main reasons that we hired John Cat. >> Yes. However, the downside of that is
that those finishes are some of them are expensive. He has beautiful coffford ceilings. He's got detail all over the place. Are we strong enough to say to John, "And where will John back off on some of that stuff?" Well, have you ever done that before, John? Have you ever said, "You know what? I'm willing to go
back to a different ceiling type or a different ceiling type." >> We'll do whatever it takes. We'll do whatever it takes. It's what's going to take is every single we're going to have to say to ourselves, >> well, we better off with the square footage of the building and give up some finishes and win the case that way. We
get the the size, the program size, but we may have to give back details of the finishes. >> Well, I think there are places >> that's where we have to make decisions as a committee. >> Yeah, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. We have a ways to go. >> I don't know that until I'm assuming that there's
>> We have schematic right now. No, I know. But I'm assuming that the conversations that will happen between Brian and John, there is a hierarchy of needs and they will work through that. They're not going to >> Well, we'll see. But we don't know that now, Ken. >> Yeah. But what I'm getting at is I want
him to He will not give it up unless we ask him. >> Yeah. There's a little secret out there, Ken. I I'll tell you a little secret out there. We used to do very plain Jane buildings. Very simple. Um not a lot of fancy stuff. And we discovered as we
added in the details, it didn't change the overall cost. We were surprised at that mainly because it's public bid. A lot of these guys don't look very closely. >> Uh they ended up they end up owning it and they build it. Uh I'm I'm just
shocked by that. It it it has happened on our last three projects. It doesn't mean we won't cut some of that >> once we end our Yeah. >> So that's an answer that I'm glad I got because I never heard it before. So my assumption would be that every time you make an improvement in the in the finishes that it costs more. What you're
telling me is you have found out from experience. So that I have an answer for that. Now if somebody says why did you put in all that maple finish? I'm going to say well we found out through other bidding and other contracts that those types of finishes are included in the price and we get it for the savings.
>> Just want to say >> very similar. >> Yeah. I I think you're >> sorry. Go ahead. I mean, you're not you're gonna not going to make up the delta in the finishes alone. I mean, for we do have some fancier finishes, I think, in key spots, but we also have some very economical finishes in other
spots. Um, okay. And and it's also about and you're also thinking about finishes when you talk about the durability of those finishes and the maintenance of that and how long they're going to last and then you're in a situation where, yeah, we saved money initially and now we're talking 10 years later that the, you know, carpeting is is gone or
whatever it is. And I think John is agree with that 100%. I mean, that's probably there's there's also all kinds of subtle things such as acoustics. Um, offered ceilings offer better acoustics. It doesn't mean you're going to get them. >> Um, the lighting, some of the lighting
looks fancy, but in reality, um, it it it's really important to have layered lighting. So, I mean, we'll walk through all that and I think Brian and his team along with us and our cost estimator will sort this out. But as I said, I think in a phone call with Ken a while
back, if the town says we have 14 and a half million, that's our job. >> All in. >> So, >> all right. It sounds like we have 145. >> So, >> yep. 14 and a half. Yep. >> Yep. >> Let's work towards that. And it might
vary. Maybe you'll get some good fundraising. Who knows? But we won't know that till usually you don't do much fundraising till after the project's already in construction. People want to see what they're giving money to. I mean, you can talk to a lot of the
fundraising people in other towns and they'll all tell you we raised a lot more money once building started. >> Yeah. Once it's real. >> Yeah. Yeah. They And you could This town should be able to come up with at least close to a million dollars.
I would love that. >> Yeah, >> happens all the time. Um, >> what's up? >> I just want to say from what I see from this group from this select group and I know Robert has said they only care about the money but
I think uh they care about the size of the building and I don't want to change it but I think we need to show some change. I mean, I don't know if just taking away the patio is going to be enough.
>> I agree. You got to look at everything. >> I think you need to look at something and make some change somewhere so it looks like we altered the building. Well, >> but um without >> I got too >> getting too much impact on program
space, but um >> yeah, >> because they have this idea that well, yeah, you got the price down, but if you'd made the building smaller, we could have gotten it down a lot more >> because we don't need this. >> Yeah, that's a misconception, unfortunately. And some
>> but that's what they believe. >> But one of the things they should One one of the things I'll point out and you can bring this up down the road if you want. This building is an open plan building. Our our our unusable space,
what we call our our our multiple factor is like 1.10 versus 1.2. >> A lot of buildings their their their circulation and things. We integrate all our circulation into program. So there's a lot of shrinkage. This building, if it
was traditional with hallways and and uh closed spaces, would be another 1500 to 2,000 square feet larger. This this is an unusual building. It's called open plan. Um and um we learned that lesson
about five projects ago where we're able to shrink down what we call unusable space uh circulation. you don't party and or do meetings in circulation space. So, we we reduce that and we we'd like
what we'll try and do for you as a committee is show you how that was done so that you can present that logically to the board. >> Well, Dennis and me. So I think if if
you're able if we're able to get right at or right near 145 and revisit the select board and the argument shifts from well now you're you're at 10 million bond and you've got
to the 145 but the goalpost moves then that's another conversation for another day. >> Yeah. I mean I think we have to we have to first go to 14.5 and then if they choose to move the goalpost they do but we have to come
there first and hope that that doesn't happen. >> So I I think we have to start with this. So I again I'll come back to I if we have cons it seems like we have consensus that it's got to come to 145 and that
that process is going to start with Catelyn and Vertex putting their heads together on some of the soft costs and making some recommendations which will always ultimately be our responsibility and our job to vote into
So with that in mind, it probably doesn't make sense to go line item by line item through the budget this evening. >> Well, we should do it on our own off with us. >> Yeah. Right. Do it do it on our own to to bring back then. That's a a great
suggestion. Okay. So that between all of us, >> we can come up with recommendations. All right. Did you have something you want to add before we go on to public outreach? Uh, I want to follow up on a couple things and I'm going to ask a question that is going to take a lot of
brain power by Kevin and I don't know if he has a >> I don't have much. >> So, I'm a strong believer that the building size is correct that the two 5000s one on top of the
other and the 3600 for the the the only thing I look at is potentially I would I would not change but I'm going to get to something. I would not change the footprint of the building, the exterior of the building, the windows, roof, the whole that's but I think that there's a possibility we could agree that we could
potentially make the multi-purpose room small. That's one thing. The second thing I heard last night which was very important that one thing that I heard made clicked a little bit was the potential that we have too many activity rooms.
Okay, now I'm I'm pushing back against you guys. This is where concessions are going to have to end. Here's my question to John and the OPM. If we look at the floor plan and on the second floor for instance,
the second floor has the fitness room and three activity rooms. So that's where Mr. Virus went right away. We have seem to have too many activity rooms. What would we be willing as a committee and what would John be willing to give up to move the fitness center? Maybe we
have to give up the lounge is what I'm getting at. We might have to come back and say, "You know what? We had to give something up. We're going to move the fitness center to the first floor." Wait a minute. Let me finish. >> The idea The idea is >> I thought you're an architect. >> I'm telling you, I'm trying to get to
the point where we keep the outside of the building identical. And think like a landlord. Potentially inside of the building, there's a petition spot yet to be finished. Just like if I was building a strip mall and I had an open space that I hadn't leased yet, but I build
the whole frame. So, we all get we get the whole building, we get the whole frame, we get the whole systems put in place, yet we petition off part of the second floor unfinished and say we have a savings of that particular piece of construction and
we've made a concession. We've moved the f we've moved the gym to the first floor potentially and said we can build the rest later if we have to. In other words, put the gym upstairs in the future. Have a way to show a really radical thought keeping the whole shape
of the building the same building getting the whole buildout of the building. >> I like I like the way you're thinking outside the box. about part of the square footage within the box >> rather than >> psychologically. You probably got a point with the
selectman. Financially, I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference. It really doesn't. Not in public bid. >> The only the only thought is >> all the systems the only thought is it from the finishing. It'd be the finishings because you'd have to have it conditioned, right? You'd have to have
it fire protected. >> Fire protected. Um, you'd have to get to that point, but you could you could do the finishes as an alternate. I mean, you're going to pick up something potentially that way, but >> yeah, maybe aggressive 30 or $40,000, but not nothing. >> It may psychologically be good. I don't
think financially it makes a big difference. Not in public bid. We're under a lot of very strict code requirements. This is an A3 building. Um, all kinds of stuff goes with that. I I will look at that on Ken's behalf, but I know I
>> you understand what I'm talking about. Actually, >> it has a unit heater in it. It has fire protection, but it's gated, not your condition. The I thought one of the advantages the HVAC system because of its zoning, you know, you could back that off. You wouldn't have to put all the machines in there, the piping and
everything else. >> No, you got to have all that. You can't leave it unheated. >> All right. >> No, you could in the in the malls. >> It's a way we'll take a Yeah, we'll look at it all. Those are all good ideas. You know, we'll work with them. >> I would be worried that it might
backfire on us and if they say, "Well, if you don't finish it now, then you don't need the space. Why is I think that's why I'm bringing it up. I want to hear what everyone says." >> Yeah. >> Do we have >> I'm confident with Robert where he's saying he's comfortable, but a 14.5 and
the building staying the same size. I'm confident keeping the building the same size and going with that 14.5. >> Um, and you know, when we go back to the select board, they could say, "Okay, well, it's still too big." But I I I'm I'm
banking on my confidence in Robert's comment that he feels that we're it's really the cost, not the size of the building. And if that and if that conversation with the select board changes >> well that tells us something >> right
>> that is that it's not it tells us something it provides a hard piece of information >> and we'll see where they go. >> It doesn't satisfy the first question which is they keep blabbing that the building is too big. >> That's right. Yeah.
But we haven't we haven't heard why that is on what do they base that other than >> it's a twotory building and they would prefer a one story and um it just looks too nice for the town or something like that.
>> I just I don't think we're going to get that answer as much >> the number it's it's the cost $16.5 million it's from a cost perspective. Yeah. >> Period. Cost just money. It's just money. Linda, everyone else feels that
we get there finding the $2 million. >> Yeah. >> But not changing anything up. That's right. >> The building >> a big bun. >> I don't I think we have to change something. But >> I I'm kind of with you. >> But uh I that seems kind of drastic, but
>> I don't know. But they're a very difficult group to work with because they just have made up their minds about certain things that they don't know anything about. >> And they look at one of the selectman looked at the property and said, "I looked at it and there's an awful lot of
empty space in it. >> You know, you should be able to tighten it up and make it smaller." And you know, he didn't I I tried to say something about why we would have a lounge area for some people who need quieter time. you know that it wasn't
just, you know, a bad use of space. >> So, can I can I task our architect and our OPM with coming up with with these changes to propose to the group perhaps two alternatives. One that
doesn't change the size of the building, but finds the cost savings outside of that area between soft costs, finishes, whatever. and one that says if we were to make a change to the footprint of the building, this is what we would this is what we would recommend. That way then
the committee has the two options because I I see it's a little bit split in terms of how we do it. So I would like to test the the architect and the OPM with creating those alternatives. >> Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Yeah. And Brian and I and Matthew and and the
other Brian will get together. Um, >> going to expect that they will include some of the ad alternates like the room divider. >> Well, we're going to have them all listed. >> You already have them listed? Yep. >> Yeah, we're going to list them. Plus, we're going to add a couple more
>> to reduce the price. >> When you look at the site plan, we own a sidewalk all the way around the building, which is kind of unusual, but that's the walking track. That could be a gravel thing. You know, it doesn't have to be poured concrete. There's a
lot of stuff here. A very large patio. We added a second patio at the request, but it it it's less necessary than the the main patio. Uh there's a lot of things in here. There's a lot of landscaping. We can simplify that. Um
but one thing I'd recommend, and I don't know whether Robert can get anybody to do this, somebody should pack up the selectman and take them over to Wilberham or something and then hear what the people say. they're already complaining it's small and that's 15,000
square foot building. Um and and and whatever we build, people will come, they will fill it. Um I can tell you right now the multi-purpose room is already too small, but we certainly will look at adjustment. I maybe I'm wrong.
>> Yeah. But but what you need to do I recommend this committee. I don't think you you know we'd love to do a formal uh get into a van or come in our cars. Wilberham's not that far away. Uh go walk through with the director and hear what she says. There's some things she
loves. There are some things she doesn't like. And you could hear both sides. >> And that would be great for you as a committee because um >> we do know that. So, so most of the members of this committee have been to either Wilberham or North Andover.
>> Yeah. But not on a formal tour. A formal tour where you really get the the tour. >> We did formal tours with the director. Yeah. Right. With each time, but I am fully supportive of inviting the select board to go things um because I do think
that would be impactful for them to >> They don't know. Yeah. They don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the building. don't know what it looks like. >> I think it's a it's more than just the select board though, you know, it's a this is out there in the the general public. So, I mean, I think when we've
talked about doing a video, I think something along those lines you could reach a lot of people with. And I think that might be a better route. You know, the select board's not going to hop in a van and go to go to the another site. I don't think >> you mean they don't care. >> I don't know.
>> Is that what you're saying? may call. >> I w I will say when you know I took a whole bus full of seniors to uh North Andover to look and I asked them very much for their impressions afterwards and only about half of the people I took
liked my drawings to begin with or John's drawings to begin with. Um and the other half were going like to point out to me how we didn't need it. And when we when and I understood that and when we left,
the ones that were the naysayers were saying, I could not believe how light and bright and spacious and welcoming this place was. I had no idea it would feel so good to be in the building. And then another one said,
"Now, how many square feet was that again?" I said, "Yeah, that's the same size as we're planning to build." that didn't feel as big as I thought it was going to feel. So, and part of that is due in part to the very welcoming, very homelike finishes that have been chosen
for both of those buildings and part of the reason that we really were enamored with Cathol Architecture buildings. So, I do think there is a risk if they go and they if the select board were to agree to go and they were to say that it was too much, but there's also the
opportunity that they could learn more here directly from someone other than this committee. So, I don't think there'd be any harm in asking if they're going to do it, but >> and I think that that feeling and that's a great story. I don't know if I've heard that before, but a I mean, my
thought is a substantial part of that feeling comes from the fact that it's a two-story building. That is when you're on the first floor, there's a a homeier atmosphere instead of staring down a long >> a long blank hallway as if you're in,
you know, like a large medical facility. Um, and that that feeling that attracts people to want to spend time there, um, comes at the cost of an elevator. Um, and you know, hopefully people when
they see that will appreciate it. Um, >> it's pretty it's pretty evident that this committee has gone deep into the weeds of these topics for a long long time and we understand it. So, it looks like the public outreach is going to be
the biggest thing because we do people do not understand them. >> John reminded me of the acousticals tonight. They Janet Livingston did point out that I mentioned the some special floor treatments and she never heard that. So it looks like maybe John Katlin
could put together a reminder list for us. What's special about these buildings? Listening acoustical treatments, sound systems, you know, >> flooring, >> flooring, any of the specialty things that we've heard and we might have
forgotten by now, but are there. And that's one of that's the reasons we're make. I tried to make the point last night. It's hard. It's hard to say what you have to say. You know, get >> you have to see it. You have to personally see it. We do have a walkthrough video of the entire building
and um I think it's almost ready for prime time for you as a committee and for the OPM. And what we'll do is I think it's done in Lumian, which is a software that we use. >> Um Dan can my Dan can correct me there,
but I think that's what it is. And it it we I've seen the early version of it. >> Yeah. What we'd like to do is I'll review that with with my my team on Monday and um uh if it looks good, we'll
get it off to Katie to distribute to everybody as a draft walk through um and then for your comments as to what might be something you're concerned about or like and um I think it'll be very very
helpful. It's all modeled. So, >> thank you. >> Like you're really there. It's really pretty amazing. >> Sounds exciting. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I just want to suggest that I remember being here one time when we were, you know, having a friends meeting and then there was a movie going on there and
then and there was some meeting or conversation going on in the middle and then over in the other room there was, you know, exercise class or something. And if if you could come up with why we need all of that those activity rooms,
you know, for because there's all these activities happening simultaneously and if you know if so >> Ellen and I shot that video, we shot the clips of the video and compiling it into something that we can use has just been
it's been sitting on my to-do list. Um, so we do have the raw footage of that. So I I don't think we're too far from that. We just need to I I don't edit video. I'm I can learn, but I I don't edit video. So that's part of why it's
not done yet. So we are well on our way to that. And I think it's a great idea. >> And I did contact the APAC, which is the town >> um cable access to ask them tell them what we're trying to do. >> They could do it. They could do it. >> Yeah. They could help if there's someone looking.
>> Sure. >> Actually, I I have a video of it of of the Holio Cedar Center done by um Ken Burns videographer. Um it's pretty impressive. So, maybe I'll dig that out and see what it looks like, but he was he made me look good,
which is scary. >> What was the soundtrack? >> Yeah. But but it it has it it is pretty amazing and it explains why now that's a larger center and it's a larger town, but it has all the same elements. I I'll
take I'll dig that out and take a look at it and give it to Katie and see what she thinks. >> Yeah, I think we want to we want to have all of this kind of rounded up with the solid number that we're going after to be able because that's the message. You don't want to go full steam into this community outreach until you have the plan. >> Yep. >> Pretty solid where you feel like you can
support it. >> Yep. >> Agreed. six. All right. Solid number. >> All right. So, what in terms of a a timeline for um John and Brian and Matt to put their heads together and bring
back some alternatives, some to hit the 14.5? What What's the timeline on that, do you guys think? >> We can get it done next We can get it done next week. And if you guys want to send lists of uh suggestions as well and then we probably schedule schedule a
meeting for two weeks from tonight. That way we could gather everything up, get it out in in advance so people can look at it and then you come to the meeting. >> We could wrap up our discussion end of next week. >> Okay. And then Robert, does the select board are there meeting just once in
August as well? Do we have that date? >> Yeah. They're scheduled to meet on August um 19th, which is a Tuesday at 6. >> Um if there is >> we need to do some type of a special
meeting. Um I think they would be willing to do that. >> That's right. >> Okay. All right. Great. It's always good to keep those in mind till the board. Okay. All right. So I I think unless there's anything that's really pressing, I think we have a plan for that. Can we
um transition to uh I know the public outreach subcommittee met earlier this week and give us an update and I know that you guys are just getting started but give us an update kind of on where you are and I do have a copy of that
handout. I don't have it to put up screen share. Can you go ahead? >> Let me see if I can find it actually. Oh, >> one page. >> Yeah, one page. Katie, can you email that or do we have that?
>> I'm just gonna try and put it here. >> I do have a hard stop. I got to hop off. >> Yes, I can definitely email that to you. Not a problem. >> Yeah, my bed my bedtime is another 15 minutes. So, >> Linda, do you want to go over there? >> I start an hour.
>> Yeah. So we met and um came up with what we thought would be a good start or you know we started went from now till the meeting in October. Um so a full-scale public outreach would include um well
we've already had the public input sessions. We we talked about that already. We had about 12 uh sessions already. Um, we discussed mailings um by bulk mail and I did meet with I went to the post office and I went to the printer and that come to find out post
office send you to the printer because they do most of the work for you. >> Um, there's different basically they're suggesting the most you know economical way or most easiest way to send out a a
mass mailing is called a direct door. But it can only be a postcard type thing and there's several sizes to choose from. Um it's a pretty quick turnaround time. They from start to finish they just need two to three weeks. Um they would hit the printer I went to was a
local printer. They would handle all the details. They would print it. They sort them by roots for the post office. They deliver them. Um I got a cost on that depending on what size. They gave me a cost an estimate for 5,000. this size
type postcard, two-sided color. It's a hard stock. Uh the cost estimate they gave me was about $1,900 for 5,000 to be direct mailed. >> I inquired about the um paper flyer that
we have, the four page flyer folded in half and mailed. That can't be direct mailed the same way. It has to have a permit. He said that's not the way most towns do their mass mailings. He said it was possible. would cost more and it doesn't go to every household. This
would go to every household. The other one with the mailing permit, it doesn't go to every household. I can't remember. He said there was some that were eliminated from that. It would be more expensive to do it that way. So, we looked at um for earlier this summer
doing a direct mail of um in a a bulk mail, a permitted bulk mail of the senior center newsletter, which is three 11 by17s, plus the four-page pamphlet, which is a fourth 11 by7 page with an 8
and 1 half by 11 as a cover, you know, around it. um so that I didn't have to reformat the newsletter. Yeah. >> Um and it was right at a dollar a piece using the town's um you know postage meter for their their bulk mail. Okay.
So that's that puts in >> so 5,000 that's 5,000 opposed to the the director or the the hard stock you know under 2,000. Um, so we discussed possibly doing a large this size postcard in August. Um, a four-page
flyer if we go that route in September and then in October do another postcard flyer. Um, a different message, not the same message. The last one would be we need your vote type, you know, change the message, but it would be all directed at, you know, what we're our
efforts are. Um, we talked about doing a mailing with utility bills. I called the billing office. Um Dan, uh they referred me to you. So they do their mailings monthly, but what I inquired is there something they
can do. They have an outside printer and I said, "What's the timeline to get it to your outside printer to stuff it? We could actually print them, but what the timeline?" They were unsure of that. So um there is there's a July mailing that I believe went out this week, this week. So we missed July. There was one in
August, September. we could possibly meet the October one depending on the time that those bills go out. Otherwise, that we might only be able to do two mailings with a utility um bill. Um, we talked about updating the website to
specific page for the project. Um, and go into more detail on the website, why air needs a new center, give all the information on the details from start to finish, where we start, you know, what what to expect along the way. Um, the timeline, the cost, videos of the
current center and proposed new. Um, we could possibly add a video of we discussed of the other senior centers because that will reach a larger target market opposed to having people go visit a center. >> Uh, social media, I believe Katie,
you're posting stuff through Council on Aging Facebook page. Um, we discussed yard signs which, um, some PE would be residents and businesses interested in participating or promoting the project.
The yard signs come in at about $10 per piece. That's the two two-sided colored with the metal stand. >> And how how big are they? >> Uh 18 by 24. Yeah, yard signs are 18 by 24. >> How much are they each? >> $10 these.
>> We We're going to have to check the town regulations. >> What size they um >> And who is >> Did you go to the one here locally in town? >> Yeah. Okay. All right. >> And I didn't know if we had another
friendship that the town uses, so that was just the first source I went to. >> Yeah. >> Um, yard science, uh, public sessions via in person and Zoom. Um, so we've already done one at the library, one at the town hall. Those probably are good
meeting points. We talked about having one in September, right after Labor Day, and then later in September or early October. And we could do one at the town hall, one at the library. So that would be four total. And I was interested, Dan,
how many did you do for storm water? >> Sorry. Um, how many What is this you were doing? >> So, how many of the storm water um >> public sessions? >> Yeah. Um, I had one with the general
public, but I had separate other ones with like just businesses and I had another one lined up, but by then we kind of felt, you know, we were in good shape already. So, we didn't end up having a second public session. >> Okay. So, we have target anywhere from 2
to 4 spacing from September early right after Labor Day and then later either late September, early October just to keep it fresh in everyone's mind. >> Sure. Um, >> pause here for a second. >> Linda, I think we need to put in here
town of air committee meetings, meeting conservation planning board, um, board of assessors, whoever we can meet that are on town board. We should be going to those boards as well. Doesn't have to be the whole our whole committee, but >> somebody should be meeting independently
with each of those and adding that to the public outreach because those people If we get them to vote, they will traditionally bring other voters with them because they're already committed to volunteering for the town and stuff. >> So, we do have some targeted group meetings. So, we could add that the
committees and boards. Um, we also have some of the churches such we had a list of, you know, we could have just a table after services or discussion if people want more of a casual just hand out if they want to stop and see what what's, you know, what the project's about. Good
Um, we discussed neighborhood gatherings which would be more centralized to a neighborhood or your group of friends. Um, I know Ellen's had experience in her community where they've had a good amount of people show and you've gotten different feedback which is actually
good because they're not in a public so it might be you might get more you know feedback that people are you know comfortable not being in a public meeting. We talked about counter display brochures, town buildings, library businesses, and grocery stores. That
would be a counter, the color, one or two-sided uh doesn't necessarily have to be a pamphlet, one or you know, either a pamphlet or just a something grab and go, something grabs their attention with the the picture of the uh center and then why we need a new center. And then
I am going to go back to what I talked about I think several months ago. I still think the uh transfer station because it's high volume. I would target it to weekends um you know and just hey you know hand it out. You don't even
have to talk. People might stop and ask questions. I did it at a transfer station that I for another town and it was great success and we had a lot of different um groups in town that they that was their that they signed up to hand down there. So it's a it's a it's a
good opportunity and there is volume. You're not sitting around waiting. because you know everyone goes on the weekend so I think that might be a good opportunity. Yeah. >> Um so we have to look at is we if we no matter who if we want to design our own um
brochures or postcards we could have somebody else the printers do it and obviously there's cost to that. The cost it does seem it seems minimal. Um but we'll have different messages as we approach the October meeting. the the message really should be we need your
vote and you know the first message should be revisiting what the center is all about why we think we're h we why we're promoting the center why we need it um so there'll be different messages but bottom line is just to kind of do a a blitz to different groups and towns
>> do we have money available for the printing cost for all this >> so that was a question I asked the other night so I'm not I I so so We don't we have the $15,000 left um in the UDAG funds. Um some I I
don't have the budget sheet in front of me, but there is the the Blazing Star survey need is going to need to be paid out of that. Um and I think there might be one other thing that's committed out of that, but yes, there are funds
available. And then with the last of the grant funding, there was I want to say $1,700 um left after I replenished all this paper that comes out of the senior center budget that we use at all of our
meetings. Um I was able to uh buy in to to the Pittney Bose system in town hall. So, we have about $1,700 in postage there in our in in the senior cent's account or in the town's account. >> So, do we have an overall budget we are
trying to stay within for the public outreach? >> Um, I think that's something we need to put together. Um, happy to work with you to figure out what that what that is. And I think some of that's going to come down to reviewing what's left that's still to be paid and then um getting a
sense of when we have the recommendations from the OPM and the architect what that's going to cost and what we think the appetite for asking for more UDAG funds is. So, but yes, I think there is a budget. I think we'll be okay with that. But it's
>> so I mean just a couple random thoughts. Yard signs it seems have a lot of cache. If you've got a lot of yard signs around town, people see them, they notice it. it just tends to create public interest
in full what's so to the extent that we need to spend money I think yard signs are are a good expenditure for that as well as I think that this in everybody's mailbox >> so that would be in every that every door direct so that would hit he
>> quoted me on 5,000 they can look up what how many households so it was based off 5,000 so that would be basically to every record >> and the other thing is I I think that we would need something to happen between
the town meeting vote and the ballot vote. That is that's a twoe gap there. And you know, assuming it passes at town meeting, then like the Friday after town meeting or whatever, so that people know that there's another step you have to
do. Yes. Everybody who voted for it. So a mailing goes out or some forum is held in that gap. Um, >> yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, thanks. Um, yeah, just my couple cents on this is Linda and crew, I think
this is very good. Great work here. You know, lots of good ideas. >> Um, one thing I would suggest, I wrote a few notes. I think getting the video out now, any video kind of like we've talked about showing existing conditions versus what industry
standards are now. a few of the other towns, what they're doing. We're basically playing catch-up. We're going to be like one of these other towns. This is the industry standard. This is what we do now. Let's show people what it can be like. I think that'll be great now, especially and you can send it out now and then send it out again in
September when everyone's back from vacation, but it doesn't have a monetary value tied to it. It's all just, you know, emotional. It just shows here's, you know, what the current center is and how inadequate it is and here's what we can have. Um, and then speaking of
monetary, I think any of the items where we'd have to speak to a cost for the building, we need to wait on that until we nail down this cost. We've really talked a lot about it tonight and we have some next steps on it. But I think you got to kind of wait on that. But, but I think these are all real good
ideas and that's my um my couple of suggestions. >> So, I think mail blitz would not be till after Labor Day. So, we would have the costs by then, correct? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the videos you're just Are we talking about just posting them on the
town website or where would those be posted? >> Yeah. And I think we can certainly post them on the town's website. We I mean, if we post them on the council on aging website, we can post them on the COA's Facebook page. The town often the town
has a its own broader, more general Facebook page. they often share things that I put up and then it could be shared into any of the sorted community groups. Um, that's one thing that is interesting that's not available is I
have no idea how many hits I have on my website. Um, >> your website being the Facebook page. >> No, no, on the town's website. That's not data that's available to the department heads. Um, so I don't know if I have a lot of traffic. I don't know if that's a viable place to put it.
certainly not going to hurt, but I I think I would spend as much time get it up on the website, but use that content to push out through social media as well. >> Yeah. The way the way I did it with Storm Water is I I posted it on YouTube and you can actually see how many views
you get and then you just create links to it and you can link it anywhere you want. Like I I didn't really put it out too much. I think we put it on social media and post it on the website and then you know if people asked about things you could say hey go check out this video and you know it really kind
of explains a lot. >> So actually the link could be printed also on all the Yeah. So that's a good idea. The YouTube >> you might gain a few you might get a few subscribers. I actually have like seven subscribers now. Expecting more videos.
>> Wow. Good. Um I just want to say the select selectman particularly um Janice Livingston was very hot with the idea that we need to do public meetings to present the plan and all and get feedback
>> and so I think that's important and I know in the town of Rotten when they did theirs the first couple of mailings and things that they did um was to promote the public meetings. So, if we schedule
the public meetings in mid and late September and then we can um push that, you know, come to a public meeting and here and and then the vote and then plan to come to town, you know. So, I think we need to to push those. >> So, we have to determine those dates now
though >> to get everything so we can book them. >> Yeah. >> Yes, I agree. >> So, we're going to come with a up with a content from us. We can either put it together and just have someone print it. Um, or they can put it together. If they
>> I can get it. I can get a design. My daughter's >> Yeah. I mean, I could do it also. I mean, I don't have >> Yeah. >> Should we should we try to have one public outreach before
August 19th so we go to the selectman again and Livingston wants to say, "Well, how come?" We can say, "Look, we had one here and we've got this planned and this planned and this planned." So, at least we can say, "We took your input. We're trying to get it going. Here's one we've done to start getting
and everybody there said this." >> But I'm afraid that when if we do that, everyone's going to say, "What's it going to cost me?" >> And I I don't know. And then we're into that. >> Then we could say, "Well, the the proposed budget is 14.5 million, and we're still working on it."
>> Frame it kind of like that. At least then we can say to the select board when on the 19th when we go in front of them, >> we took we took what you told us. We're starting, we're doing this. Here's our here's our game plan going forward. I >> think you have the right idea. But I
think the important thing what Ellen mentioned is scheduling the times. >> So we can at least tell them that this is where we have >> people are back from vacation usually after Labor Day. And I would just like
to add to this um mix is that September is um older adults month and senior center month. >> So the senior center will be having an open house. Um we're going to do it in hours that bridge the afternoon and the
evening. Um so it I'd like to include that in some of our publicity to come on down, see the existing space and uh enjoy some of the programs and activities that we have going on. So, I think that's another um that's a less
structured but another opportunity to get people in the building. >> But do you up Valley Park? I think that >> I know, right? >> So, I think it's time sensitive if we get all these dates so we can get our >> We're going to have to have another meeting. >> Yeah. Can we meet early next week and
get some of this? >> Okay. >> The next phase of this. >> Yeah. I can I'm not available Tuesday. The other um the other this kind of is not public outreach, but the other thing I heard that I thought was a great idea, we do need more people to come to the
select board meetings for public input that are in favor of the project. >> Correct. >> And I have some people that I've reached out to already that are residents that I've worked with. I have one person I'm hoping he's on board because he would be awesome. He's lived in town all his
life. His family, his family's work in town. He's very close worked with elders. So I think seniors, excuse me. Um I think he would be great. So I'm trying to get some people. >> Another woman lives right around the corner here. So I'm I'm trying to get
people that know of the project that are in support of it. So it is not just like one board member said, you know, you're just having these meetings for seniors, but we really should, and I think I've mentioned before, we I think we need to make our
broaden the our public outreach to a a slightly younger age group as well. And I would be more than happy to um you know, as we're ex I think these are the the key ones to have. I would also be more than happy to have a presence at
the youth soccer in the morning and the afternoon down like that will go on all fall long. The fields are full and >> that reaches a whole different demographic. You know, come down with the flyers, walk around, talk to people on the sidelines, sweeten the pot with
donuts and coffee, you know, just to reach a different demographic. >> And I think that the from what I understand and I have the library children's room early in the morning like from 9 to 11 9 to 12 are
packed with young parents and their toddlers. Um and I think that that would be a good spot to hit up >> young parents and you know the three-year-old can vote that's all also good. So >> could we just that's a good the library
is a good idea there. Is it possible to go to the library and ask them if we can put up a permanent display so we can just put up the boards things like that in a little section >> with the for the pages of you know cont the data that we have basically just
post it >> what >> print it print another set up and just put it >> right >> put it there for a while >> I I think it's definitely worth asking >> anyone who comes in they can just stop and see it you know they just look at it when they drive when they walk by >> even even without anyone talking about it they could see it
get an idea. >> Definitely worth asking as we're approaching um when we asked them about that before when um when we were doing the public input session in the fall, they said they have a very specific set of criteria. It's a table downstairs at the bottom of the steps. That's where
all community and other things go because they have they have put up they moved where their magazines were. They put up a huge bulletin board and now they have expanded where public Oh, awesome. Great. >> Those materials can be
>> I I don't know about not at the bottom of the stairs anymore. >> It's just another way to put out the mess. Well, I was thinking we just set, you know, >> be there. >> I guess you make a diarama build a little scale model.
>> Yeah. >> All right. any so we'll get the public input the public outreach subcommittee will get together early next week try and get some of these additional or whenever we can meet before our next meeting to try and get some dates
scheduled some more and then >> did we get the dates for the inserts in the utility bill yet >> so that's what I'm waiting on because she wasn't sure how it worked or when it Yeah, I I can help with that. I think you were talking to Bethany and she's
pretty new, so she doesn't she doesn't really know much about that. So, I can help with that. Just reach reach out to I I'll check tomorrow. >> Good. >> Yeah, >> because if we get anything in August, we've got to get on it right away. >> All right, great. Um, anything else on
public outreach? Otherwise, I think >> we want in terms of public outreach, we want to in especially after last night and actually I ended up talking with a neighbor of mine as I was walking across the parking lot home um who was
remarkably well informed although I haven't seen him at any of the but it seems like he's been paying attention. Would it be um helpful to encourage people to call the selectman's office just phone call
>> and just kind of let them know that they support you know give their name their address and I support the senior center >> project >> I don't think so >> yeah I think they're going to talk to they're going to get the town manager office >> well the town man yeah
>> yeah I mean I think anytime people want to show their support they should do it in the that they will actually do it. So whether that's showing up at a meeting, writing a letter, or making a phone call, it's whatever they'll actually do.
>> So, but as a for members of this board to encourage that behavior, >> do you think that that's a good idea? I I would say that the better method would be for people to come to a select board meeting, come to a fincom, come to a capital planning meeting where it is
recorded and there's a formal public input >> spot that will end up then on the Apac page afterwards. I think that kind of a thing has the most impact. Y >> uh >> but and the app that also takes time and
energy and agree that's what I'm saying. So the phone call being the easier option >> state legislator you know who track all their calls and that is very >> one thing we do see on the planning board. Okay first of all another thing that came up last night some people
mentioned to me at the end of the meeting last night they were intimidated but by having to go to the the tables. A lot of people feel uncomfortable going up and speaking at a table like that especially in the atmosphere of last night. But I think a letter is the strongest thing. Email is one thing, but
>> if you write a letter and you send a letter in now, that's a record, >> it's basically it's not speculative. I would encourage people if they if they have can spend 15 minutes to write a letter and send it to the to the board of circle or send it to this committee
and we we'll give it to the board, something like that. I don't know. >> It's an old fashioned way of doing it, but it it takes it takes the pressure off having to show up and say something in public or whatever the case may be. And I think it's good to time it after
we have the public hearings because that's what the select men seem to think they need to inform people. And if they start seeing after we do those meetings that people are saying, "Hey, I really like this project. I'm in favor of this." You know what I mean? >> That's why it would be nice to have some
come to the next meeting, stand up. >> Yeah. >> Automatically that has to happen. No question about it. I mean, just they have their public input all the time and nobody says anything. >> Why not say so?
>> Right. Well, I I Carolyn asked last night if that was for things that were not on the agenda or on the agenda. I think if people had been able to stand up in the beginning, >> then it would have predated, >> right? It wouldn't have worked last
when it's not on the agenda. >> Right. Thank you. >> Okay. So, um there's no public here, so there's no public input. Um but, um our next meeting is scheduled for currently scheduled for August 7th.
Um and I think we had said we were going to alternate them and I think I picked the wrong alternating time this time. So, I'm going to write it down this time. Do we want six o'clock on August 7th or do we want 4 p.m. Cool.
four. Are we going? >> Yeah, go four if we can. I I'm good. I'm good with either, but >> four works for me. >> Okay. August 7th at 4 PM. All right. Can I get a motion to adjourn?
>> Motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Right. Dan, have you vote? >> Uh, I'll just say thanks. I had to I brought my daughter to lacrosse tonight and I forgot I had to. So it was good I could still join on Zoom. So thank you. I vote I
>> Dave I >> Linda I Dennis >> Ellen I chair says I. All right. We are adjourned at 7:58 p.m. Thank you so much everyone. I think this has been a really productive