Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to the Devon's jurisdiction framework committee meeting. This is Wednesday, October 8th, 2025. Uh I ask that anyone on Zoom, if you have a question, please, you know, do the raise hand thing. Um and then I
because I can see you in front of me and if I miss you, somebody from behind me will be able to let me know what's going on. So, um all right, I'm going to do uh attendance. Uh Janice Livingston obviously myself, Robert Pmprian here.
Rachel Frylander here. I said that wrong, didn't I? It's okay. Sorry. Oh, Susan Mary Readinger here. Victor Norman is now here. Dan Nason, I think he's not going to be present tonight.
No, he's not. Don Dunar here. Brian Sawyer here. Logan Breeze. Did I say that right? Yes. Okay, good. Brian Hildebrandt not here. John Kedar not here. Jim Geller here.
Odal Smith. Christian Cullen not here. And Ryan McDevitt and Neil Angus probably on his way. So we'll we'll put him not here at the moment. And William Marshall. All right.
Thank you. All right. We have a quorum. All right. So, first up is we have the meeting minutes from September 10th, 2025. I uh I didn't see any issues. Did anyone else?
I have one. Okay. And it's something I said and if I said it that way, I I apologize and I can't find it. under old business.
Uh okay. Yeah. Uh under old business the very last section. Okay. Um, I think what I was trying to say was u that uh Neil Angus had indicated that there
would be an update to the uh working housing working group education committee. Okay. So I uh All right. Yeah. So the housing working group education is you did you did say that. Yeah. Okay. Um
All right. We'll uh look over the videotape. I know the Zoom meeting notes didn't get taken unfortunately. So, we'll look at the videotape and we'll fix that. Uh is there any is everyone else um move this one?
Anyone else have anything? Did anyone have any issues of approving with an amendment or do you want to wait till the next meeting to see the uh amendment put in? I'll make a motion to approve as amended. Second. Okay. All those in favor to
approve the meeting minutes as amended. I Anyone? No. Okay. Two abstains. Oh, okay. Oh, because you weren't here. That's right. Okay. All right, then. We will uh get those meeting minutes fixed and then
they'll be posted when they're updated. I'll let you know when I've uh posted them to the website. Okay. All right. So, we had two abstain. All right. All right. Any share, excuse me. Any
shareholder update on anything that's not on the agenda? Town of Air Shirley. Harvard. No. Deans, Deck, no. Well, that was easy. Okay. Uh, all
right. Under old business, we have the question 18, the boundaries of the permanent govern government matrix. Would you hand me the mouse, please? Oh, yeah. Sure. Okay. All right. There we go. All righty. It
back down to where it is. And All right. Town of Air. Madame Chair, um I want to thank uh Rachel and you uh for your help on the boundaries uh matrix from the town of
air. Uh as you can see from our submitt about 19% of the area if we were to go back to the historic boundaries would be within the town there. We flag two significant boundary issues
would be those of Vixsburg Square of which the majority as we know lies within the historic boundaries of air and the Moore airfield which is completely within the historic boundaries of air. Uh considerable planning and professional analysis would
be warranted to fully understand the potential uh development and use of both of those uh significant areas. In addition, upon if disposition were were to happen, uh the town would want to
verify all of the historic boundaries by means of professional survey and analysis. Uh we would from then look at the issues of of zoning and land use. Uh we would need to include private property owners, Devon's residents and
other uh stakeholders uh within our portion. And then once the boundaries are confirmed and zoning is in place, uh we would additionally prepare an appropriate study plan in terms of the overall future planning and land use for
the area. And of course, intermunicipal agreements would also be needed uh for some of the parcels uh such as the existing Devon's DPW site and others that may or may not fall in air. So just a quick snapshot of the boundaries in
air. All right. Thank you very much. Any questions, comments? Okay. Next up, town of Harvard. Harvard. uh the town of Harvard would
anticipate that the historic boundaries that still with this would reemerge and the only conflict as has been mentioned is potentially between air and Harvard uh as it relates to uh Vixsburg
Square housing and um Bates and Almond housing. Uh if V if Vixsburg Square were to be developed commercially then I I think that along with issues with respect to utilities,
the DPW barn, road maintenance and so on could be handled with uh intermunicipal agreements has been suggested. Um and I I would uh the town would anticipate negotiating with the town of air with respect to uh the whole housing
issue recognizing that uh the Devon residents have historically taken the position that that their entire residential community should remain intact and so there is potential conflict there that would need to be worked out
and that's it. Sounds good. Any comments, questions? Okay. Why are you all so quiet today? Town of Shirley. Uh yes. If uh if the historic boundaries
of Devons were to resort back to the original towns, uh Shirley would be responsible to maintain and govern the infrastructure and residents within those boundaries. Um, Shirley might be a little bit more uh simplistic uh in regard to the boundaries as far as you
know uh air or Harvard might look at redefining those boundaries. I think Shirley's is pretty clear-cut. Um they would probably remain as they are. Uh really the the two main sections, one of which is where the town office complexes are. uh which we kind of already um
maintain is almost the town of Shirley even though they're in the the boundaries of Devons. Um and then the other section would really kind of be where the sewer treatment plant is. And so I'd be a little bit more simplistic. Um but uh we would be responsible to
maintain and govern uh those boundaries. Comments, questions? All right. Thank you very much. And Devon's residents.
So, I guess the primary issue here should we become our own town would be uh which county are we going to be part of? That's that's true. Yeah. I think everybody else has already hit on
appropriate issues. Jim, can you speak up, please? Sure. I just was saying that the the primary issue for for us should we become a a town would be which county will belong to Middle Sex or Worcester? Does anyone know historically? Well, no.
Never mind. Never mind. Nope. I've already answered my own question. Don't see I love it when I do that sometimes. Oh, okay. Any questions, comments? Okay. All right.
The deck. So status quo. I had probably the easiest job where the boundaries on the boundaries. Uh the Devon's regional enterprise zone is uh is the boundary is identified under section 8 of chapter 498. Um so that
boundary is clearly delineated. It would continue. One thing I did want to bring to everybody's attention is on the next page. um share to it as the uh the Devons region. The the chapter 498 also defines the the impact region or the
economic impact zone of Devons which is the towns of Air Harbor and Shirley which are the immediate impacts and then every town that touches the towns of Air Harbor and Shirley as well as all the towns that touch all of those surrounding towns. So, it's identified
here on the uh on the the map here as um I think it's I think it's there's 27 communities total in the region roughly. Um so, just wanted to make sure people are aware of that as well. I have a question uh through the chair. Uh
what what is the the darker line? What does that signify? Oh, so it you can't see the colors on your probably on your photo copy. Um so the dark line is the uh is the Middle Sex County boundary and boundary is the county boundary basically.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So now sorry through the chair uh seeing this it's the it's the touching plus the touching right. So everything touches that plus one more. So all the pink is obviously our communities and then uh
the yellow is those that touch Air Harbor and Shirley and the green is those that touch all of those areas surrounding Air Harbor and Shirley within Massachusetts. Okay, great. Thank you. Yep. All right. Any more comments, questions?
All right. Thank you very much everyone. All right. Next on the agenda is the membership for contingency plan working group. And I know Robert emailed everybody out something today. And I've got some copies here.
Wait, where did I put it? Oh, this might not be Oh, you know what? We're not on the website. Yeah, we're not on the website. That's why. Let me go to the website so I can pull it up while you're talking. Sure. So, um, again, I I apologize for
the the last minute transmission earlier this morning. as we've been talking about um the issue uh for the Devon's jurisdictional framework committee is that on occasion uh when there are applicable grants that would be of
interest and a value to this effort to apply for um based on our meeting schedule. Sometimes some of these have a fast turnaround or deadlines in which um as the whole group uh we haven't been
able to necessarily meet. So the task was to put together a contingency plan uh for applying for grants. And so this is just a a very rough draft proposal to start the discussion. Um of course open
to any suggestions or edits. Um but in a in a nutshell um the purpose is that we have a defined plan for us to apply for any applicable grants that may become available with specific deadlines that must be met when the full framework
committee is not meeting. Historically uh we missed a couple of opportunities uh that we've had tight deadlines due to the med meeting schedule. This plan is not intended in any way to circumvent the framework committee, nor is it
intended to become the normal grant application plan, but more of sort of our emergency response. So, what's proposed is that we would appoint a grant application subcommittee uh that would be charged with meeting in a
timely manner uh for the purposes of applying for any applicable grants uh for this group. Every effort will be made by the subcommittee to keep uh the framework group informed and updated of its actions, activities with respect to
any grants and when possible defer any official grant actions to the full uh committee. The subcommittee shall have a standing agenda item under old business titled grant application subcommittee update. And oftentimes there may not be
any update but if there is um we would report that out. The committee the framework committee shall appoint a five member subcommittee with a representative from air Harvard Shirley the deck and Devons. So each of the
stakeholders and then a m uh as far as one other thing I think we should consider is a majority of federal and state grants require the designation of either an administrative andor fiscal agent
responsible uh for the grant. This is often a mandatory prerequisite of any grant application. To that end, uh the framework group should designate uh one of the three towns or the deck as the standing administrative or fiscal agent
for any grant application. Now, there may be grants where said agent isn't needed, but if there is one, we would be prepared that okay, air or surely is is the agent. So, it's again a rough draft
proposal. Our whole intent is here is to have agreement on some mechanism that when there are time-sensitive opportunities, we can at least act. Again, we'll do everything that this group is acting as a whole, but there
may be a circumstance where I think if we're all on the same page, we can we can move forward. So, that's it in a nutshell. Thank you very much. Any questions? Yes. Yeah. I I guess the the question that I
have is so for the for the for the grant opportunities that we missed. Uh I mean I I assume that they weren't just you know someone came up with a grant out of the blue and people only had 30 days to
respond. I mean these were these ongoing annual grants and we just from a timing standpoint we weren't aware of them with sufficient time or is or is this or I guess what I'm getting at is is if if if we if we continue down the road that
we've been then we're always trying to apply for a grant at the last second whereas why don't we know about it way in advance? I I I can't believe these grants have that short of a of a notice period. So if there's grants that we should be applying for, then is there
something that we should be doing as a committee to know about those well in advance so that we don't have to have a separate subcommittee to be able to address things at the last second? Good question. So I think um through the chair the Jim the example that I can
think of is so when we applied for the housing choice grant which we did receive um that had you're correct we should be always looking for grants and many have a
longer timeline sometimes the quest the challenge is is when we discover it though there's a long right so the housing one day was a when I say there was a relatively uh tight timeline in the sense that we did apply air
volunteered to be the agent. Um at that time we did get the grant as you know then the state wanted it reprogrammed more to this their scope and then Victor had brought up after the the housing
choice there was another window that that we could have applied for for the the financial study but we weren't meeting until after the deadline. So this is definitely an anomaly. It's more of just a safety mechanism. I think I do
agree that we should always be looking on the long term, but in the event that there is an opportunity, we could act. I guess I my my my follow-up question then would be so uh
how does how does this subcommittee you know how have we charged how would we charge the subcommittee so that we know that in effect we'd be applying for a grant that is pertinent to the jurisdiction issue
if I may through the chair I think the the answer to that my assumption is that any grant that we would be applying time for would use the RFP scope of work that this committee has already approved as a draft. So that
would that that is the focus. So in other words, this isn't uh giving this correct me if I'm incorrect. This isn't giving the committee blank check to go out and look for grants to apply for for any number of reasons. it really is
focused on what we've been calling phase one of a consultant's work or the financial aspect so that it would a grant grant source that they might be looking at would fit with the work that
we've already done creating the RFP. Is that accurate, Robert? Yeah, I think um to the chair that was the sort of the basis of forming this response. Yes. with with with that caveat then I I don't have issue.
I think the other thing to consider about having this subcommittee is that later on in the agenda we're talking about the future meeting schedule. So, this could be a good idea is to having the subcommittee um being able to
move faster if we're changing the meeting schedule while then we like say, "Okay, everybody, here's what's going on. Subcommittee's working it and we need to get together, you know." So, I think that'd be something else to kind of consider. Yeah. Yes. And just so the Jim to your point
we can clarify and just to be clear the subcommittee this subcommittee is not going to be tasked with finding grants and applying to grants to your point that that should be here. it's more of sort of our life jacket if we have to act in a timely
manner and and if that's the case and it's with respect to uh possible grant money against the RFI that that being put together then I'm I'm fine with that. I just I just don't want this committee going off and
Oh, absolutely. Number of different directions. Yeah, absolutely. Question. Yes. Um so then what I could foresee if we do go to a quarterly meeting as was uh option presented in the packet for discussion would uh the way that I felt
that it worked last time with that grant was that we agreed to it but we didn't have the time or the resources necessarily to apply for it to have another meeting to get it all together. So are would we be discussing that any grant that is gone for whether through
this ad hoc subcommittee or quick subcommittee or whether it's by vote of this is that it would still be only by vote of the larger committee is that what you're talking about clarifying um Robert well then wouldn't that just to clarify your question wouldn't that then create
a new problem because then we've got to get this committee together to then tell that committee to go do it or do we want that committee to see an opportunity, start working it while they're shooting an email, for example, to me to say, "Hey, this is what we're working on." And then me saying, "Hey guys, this is
what everybody's working on. Do you want to let's get together so we can look into this." Yeah. I think it's important that we just all understanding of what that would look like. Yeah. Yeah. Want to just add one other thing to the chair. uh when we were working with uh
the department of housing and Louisville cities, they focused our grant on housing, but there also was a a a category that dealt with community planning which the the grant the RFP really fit right into it. And so in in that discussion,
it was determined the next funding cycle was in February or something like that. And I asked the questions, are there ever exceptions to the funding cycle? And the answer was yes. So I think that could present an opportunity for this
commit uh committee uh to explore that possibility and having worked in bureaucracies uh there always are exceptions. uh and you know whether you can
convince an agency to make the exception is another matter but it might be something I think that this working group uh could do as well is a kind of unconventional time schedules for funding sources. All right. Yes, Neil.
Uh I I think we just have to be mindful too that as everybody knows mass development is not at the table. Um, and whatever grants this committee may be looking to go for, they're not listed in in this
contingency plan either. And, you know, they were the original one of the original members of this group. And I just fear that I don't want to get down too far down a road with a grant and not have the participation of mass development who is a key partner in this
whole thing. Um, so I think we should just be mindful of the fact that they're still not at the table when we're looking at exploring potential grant opportunities for whatever. I think it's an important point. Um
I think the exercise we're doing right now uh that we're coming to a close on the matrix has been a great a great opportunity to gather information and it's something that we can all do without mass development on the table but as we move forward with more
strategic objectives of the of the committee I think we really need them at the table. Mhm. Here's my recommendation for the moment. So, everyone just received this draft today. Okay. So, you might
not have had a chance to really look it over. So, my recommendation is everybody look this over. Robert, if it's all right with you. Yes. If anyone has any questions or comments to contact Robert directly on this draft
and then at our next meeting, we will look at a more polished version. And Neil's right, but for right now, let's get this part built while and that's later on in the agenda while we still work on the other issue that Neil
has brought up. Okay? So, you know, we're going to kind of work the two lanes. All right. Does that sound like a good idea to everybody for the moment? Yes. If you send me your comments, and surely I apologize. I have you misspelled on the the composition of
committee. It's twice. Feel free to um just send me the edits and then I made some notes from Jim and others uh comments. We'll incorporate everything
for a a final draft of the next meeting. Thank you. All right. Any further questions on this item comments? Okay. All right. Next up was an education group update which I believe was coming from you, Neil,
right? Might be me. Might be you. Yes. So what? Yes, madam chair. I thought Neil got me. Okay. So well he so the this has to do with the original housing grant as this committee knows
has been reprogrammed into four uh subset efforts one of which is an educational analysis of um of the region and we define school needs assessment the school needs assessment
we are getting the band together when I say the band it's the it's the three um town administrators, the superintendent of the air Shirley Regional School District and superintendent of the Harvard um public schools. Um with schools starting and everything, we our
goal is to get the group together. Once we get together, our first task is to put together a a a scope for the RFP uh for that component and we'll have more um update for the next meeting. It's
just taken a little longer to get everybody together. But the the and we will definitely talk about that scope with all of you, but it's an opportunity to do a full education analysis um of the region
including future needs. Did I miss anything? I think that's that covers the the re this regional school needs assessment piece. Oh yeah. As Robert mentioned, there's four four items that came out of that housing working group report. Two other
items, one was a parking and traffic analysis uh of the innovation technology center district within Devons that was subject of that report. Uh Mass Development is currently finalizing those reports. Um
so we expect to see some information on that in the very near future. Um they were also a third item was an existing buildings assessment neat um structural assessments on the conditions of Vixsburg Square and the old bachelor's
officers quarters buildings. They have engaged with a consultant to uh to analyze those buildings. So we hope to see a report on that very soon as well too. Uh the fourth item was a look at a
community engagement uh program for um changing the zoning to allow for housing in the innovation technology uh zoning district, innovation technology center uh district, which is that area that encompasses Vixsburg Square and BQ's
basically that kind of horseshoe half horseshoe around Rogers Field. uh Mass Development has uh has been uh putting out some feelers on some potential consultants to assist in an in a community engagement strategy.
um to um basically uh conduct a series of listening sessions to go into the surrounding towns to you know identify what the issue is, what the potential zone change is, get community feedback, concerns,
issues, all this information leading up to a potential supertown meeting in the spring for a zone change to allow for um adding housing to one of the the allowable uses in the ITC district. So, they are looking at engaging a
consultant. Um they have uh partnered with the Devon's Enterprise Commission on that. Um and we'll report, you know, to Robert uh who's administering that, you know, the grant funds associated with that um with any updates, but right
now there's a lot in the works on all four of those items. So, but progress is being made. Excellent. Through the chair. Yes. Neil, is there any chance that this committee could get a look at the um RFP for consultant services before
they go out on the specifically on the community engagement piece? Uh I don't know. I'd have to check uh and see. I don't know if there's going to be an RFP. Um it may be uh the use of mass development has a series of house
doctors that they utilize. Basically consultants that they've worked with in the past uh that they may choose to utilize one of those. Um but they're going to have to communicate some intent a scope of services kind of thing. So uh
as soon as we see anything, you know, I can share it uh when it becomes available. And how is the work of this consultant different from the work of the housing working group? I thought that is what that group was intended to do.
Uh it's it's building on that work. I believe it's going to be building on that work and engaging directly with you know more more detailed engagement with all three surrounding communities and the Devon's residents um to
uh in listen inform and educate on you know the potential um impacts of his own change and uh you know up preparing up to that super town meeting process. I guess my my concern would be and I'm I'm really suspicious of mass
development. I'll admit that that they are looking for consultants to steer uh the final end product in a certain direction and candidly that that's that's why I'm suggesting if this committee had a chance to look at the scope of that of the work of the
consultant that might be a way to uh dig a little deeper in what their intent is. I mean I can reach out and see if they're willing to share what they have. Um, but you know, I think it's, you know, I don't I don't know that it's the
purview of this committee to be reviewing stuff like that. It's it's not a disposition process. This is a this is an existing zoning proposal or zone change proposal. Maybe maybe not have this committee
review it. If that seems to be an appropriate perspective, then at least the towns and the Devon's residents look at it in some fashion before it it goes out. It'll it'll be up to mass development, I think. Um, but, you know, I will say that, you know, to your
comment about it being something that they're trying to force down people's uh force an agenda. I think it's uh the whole point and you know I worked with them to talk about putting in these listening sessions where we're going out
to the communities not with a you know a preset agenda but listening to the communities and understanding what their concerns are and issues are so that it's not pushing something down and it's understanding the issues. The issue with respect to soliciting
listening to the communities isn't the issue. issue is what do they hear from the communities and you know Vixsburg Square is the example in the past they heard very specific things from the
towns from Devons uh and uh the in this case it was a developer who did all the listening did not include any of that in the final proposal they made to town meeting and town meeting said no we're not going along with it so just
so hopefully they will have learned from their mis mistakes and this process is very different. Well, Neil, if you see them starting to make a mistake or something, maybe kind of ping them and say don't go down that path. Lost missed opportunities through the chair. Can we keep this as
an agenda item? Just as just a education thing, it's already on it. Not only education, but update on the the reports from the housing working group that includes more than just education. So, changes to the housing group. housing
housing working group consultant reports updates. Okay. Okay. I think that's what caught me off guard. I mean it said education. So, speaking of representation, um, as I listen to the, uh, the makeup of the
education group, uh, I can't help but remark upon the fact that it does not include anyone from the Devon's educational advisory committee from the Dev doesn't include anyone from the Devons community. And that's a concern of mine. And I know that you know this this this
this this this committee is is should be focused on jurisdiction and I know the education is not jurisdiction. So that's just a a side note to you that's all. So here's the good news through the chair. So um we would welcome somebody
from Deans. So I will reach out to you and John. So, um, this one and we'll come back with the proposal to Victor's point about as much local input on this education effort. I think having the superintendent of the two schools, the
three town um administrators kneel from the deck and yes, we could add somebody. So, I will um reach out and then we haven't good news is he hasn't missed anything yet because we have yet to have the first meeting. All right. So,
I'll be right back. Okay. Any other further questions on this topic? Comments? All right. All right. Under new business, the preparation for state representative representatives on November 12th. So, I emailed Senator
Eldridge, Senator Cronin, and Representative Cena. I heard back from Eldridge and Cena. they would like to zoom in on our November 12th meeting. Okay. I saw Jamie and Dan Monday night
and I said, "Hey, you know, if you see Senator Cronin, could you let them know, you know, I've been trying to reach him and you know when you're going to be zooming in." So, that's where that sits at this moment. Okay. Um, in regards to that, in the email that I
had sent you before, I had stated that Senator Eldridge had recommended that the three towns perhaps send a note to Mass Development saying, "Hey, we need you to come back to the table and I indicated that I was going to talk to my board and I did last night." And the
town of Air is going to send a letter. We're going to be drafting a letter that we're going to send to Mass Development saying, "Seriously, we need you to re-engage." Okay. Now, as I stated uh to last night in our meeting, we're not
asking them to do any of the heavy lifting. We're not asking them to do cuz that was some of what was being gone being done when we first started get together. They were doing all the administrative stuff and everything. We've got all that covered. So, we're not really asking them to do anything
but to sit and engage with us. And if they say, "Well, look, we can give you 20 minutes out of an hour's meeting." That's fine, you know, but we need them to engage. So, we're going to be sending in a letter and, you know, I encourage
Shirley and Harvard to also do that from their select board um to either, you know, say inviting them to attend our meeting uh per the three towns or saying that, you know, we'd like to go see them. as far as the representatives of
the three town and that's to get them to re-engage. Um, you know, because as stated numerous times, we do need them to re-engage and I don't think we're asking a lot of out of them except to
have a conversation with us. Okay. So on that, since we're having state representatives um coming zooming in on November 12th, how do you want how do we want to handle this? What do we what is it we want to ask them to do besides could you go tell
Mass Development to talk to them, talk to us? So that's why it's on the agenda as far as meeting prep. Well, it would seem to me that if there are state grants that might be applicable, they'd be the people that would know about it. So, why wouldn't we
ask them if there's any grants that we should be sorry? Okay. Going after. All right. Taking a closer look at. All right. Anything else? Yes. This was clearly generated at our previous meeting. So, what was the
discussion that brought this forward? We want them to kind of help us Yeah. get to mass development and get mass development to re-engage with us. So that's why we we're contacting them um in the hopes that if state
representation is also saying to mass development, you need to re-engage, maybe that'll work. Okay. Well, so that would be the primary. It's a maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Um that would obviously be our primary ask of them. I'd like to understand where they're at with where
they're at about the whole thing and where they're at about disposition and and where they see them interacting with the towns with this committee to move that effort forward. I you know I have heard some things said by either one of
the two over time but there just doesn't seem to be any action. So I I'd actually like to get commitment from them if they are going to support us what they will be able to do for us. Okay. So that's something that we should you know discuss with them. I would hope. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. that they have been to our meetings in the past and and Mag Delore has has stated publicly that they will come back to the table in 2030 and they will pay for everything right
associated with the jurisdiction. So just for everybody's benefit that was that was that has been stated numerous times in public settings. Mhm. Yes. Madam Chair, I think to that point, so I I do like Jim's idea when the state
folks are here about the grant. I think Neil, to to your point, I I don't disagree because I was at that meeting. But I think we need to stress I think there's my own observation, there's a a level of naivity by mass development to
wait until 2030 and then we'll pay for everything. So that leaves only three years before there's supposed to be a study. And if we've learned anything from history, how long did it take us, this group to put together the RFI? What I'm getting at is unless absent absent
mass development having some plan that we don't know about, it would make sense to start the planning process sooner because there's a lot of work. I I I agree. They've said, "Look, we'll get back to you in 2030 and we'll pay for everything." But we're trying to say
the sooner the better for planning purposes. I know we're on the same page, but I think that's the key thing for the senators and the state rep is we can't we can't just accept this blanket statement. Well, call us in 2030. We'll we'll talk then.
It's already going to be 2026 in a few months. Sooner is better. especially getting all of the constituencies, the people of the towns, Devons, their input and involved in the process. Plus, when this committee was first
formed, they were one of the driving forces that said, "Let's get this committee formed, right?" You know, so, right, which is why we need them back with the data to be progressive and move forward. I was just making the comment that, you know, they responded to us.
They're not they're not ignoring us. It's, you know, well, they are they are they are kind of ignoring us because they're kind of like, no, we're not interested. So, you can kind of make the argument that we are being ignored a bit. If I may, even in the very last
correspondence that we got from mass development, um the Najib Ball said that the planning process should begin by 2030. So, so there, so they keep going
back to those dates, 2030 and 2033. And the legislation is clear that there's nothing to stop the parties from beginning before that date. And they're they've never for the past three CEOs,
they've never given us a reason, right, or reason beyond that. Like we've got too much work to do. We've got uh environmental issues that we've got. They haven't given us anything other than dealing with those dates. And the question I have for the I
would have for uh Repscina and and the senator is do they see 2033 as a hard stop? Is that when mass development is done? Because it says a report is due by 2033 but the report
could say uh well you know and we need another 10 years to finish whatever we have to do. So that would be a question. Do since the legislature put those dates in there, was it the legislative intent that 2033, not later than 2033, be a
hard stop? Uh, and Massone is done as the interim government that they may still have land to be sold, some projects to undertake, but as the interim government, are they done by 2033?
That's a very good question. I know that what I said last night was that in 2033 a decision is expected. The decision could be goes back to the historical lands. It could be becomes its own town.
Could become status quo. But even if it stayed status quo, mass development was like, "Oh no, we still got work to do and we're going to stay." That in itself is also a change. So we know that a change is coming. I do not think that if something as big
as this should make it it it kind of comes across when when they're saying, "Well, we'll talk to you in 2033 that then it's going to be this rush job to get a report together." And I don't think that's fair to any of the stakeholders
because whatever decisions made, whatever is in that report that gets to the state, I think that we would all feel good to know that such due diligence was put into it that no matter what the decision, because we know
there's going to be somebody unhappy with the decision because that's the way it works. But everyone can walk away going, but my goodness, we worked hard on that. And I was proud of what got sent regardless of what the decision
was. And so I get very concerned when I have, you know, this state entity telling me, "No, we'll talk to you in 2030 and then we'll put this together and then get it out." That's my concern.
Yes. Also, I think um to that point is I'd like to have Jamie and Dan's input in input on how long it takes to move something through the legislature. I mean, it isn't like that we're going to just present it and five days it'll be done. It takes, as I understand, it's at
least a year-long process for anything to be done. And this being contentious may require longer than that. So if I'd like them to stand in 2033 with a decision having been made because then the towns actually need to have a lot of stuff in place should it be going back
to historical boundaries. We are for it to take place. So I'd like them to stand in 2033 with it all being done and for them to look backwards and say oh wow we really should have started in 2028 or 2025 or whatever. So that um and then also impress upon their decisions that
towns are making now. uh a five-year capital plan. Uh anything that you're doing on a large basis is impacted by whether we are resuming jurisdiction or not. And if we are, then there's a lot of other things that will fall out of
that. So it's really not fair to the towns to have this question unresolved. Whichever way it goes, it impacts. So y So I I guess I would like to offer an additional comment based on what I'm hearing here. And that is is I think we
all agree it would be great to have mass development back at the table. Um what I wonder is is uh in order to get them back to the table, can we tell them that the intent of getting them back to the table is not to
speed up the jurisdiction issue, not to get to resolution on the jurisdiction issue, but to engage. I mean, right now, I'm not so sure that mass development doesn't say you want us to engage right now because you want to speed up the jurisdictional issue. If we were willing
to say that we're that we're not seeking to speed up the jurisdictional issue, then maybe they would come back to the table. Well, it's an interesting point, but I mean, why did they leave, you know, and and there, you know, the CEO changed and then all of a sudden it was just nope,
we're done with you. We're not going to engage with you. So which is kind of and and so but I think you bring up an interesting point and I think it's important to note that you know the legislation specifically says a report
and recommendation goes to the legislature. So like in 2033 everything just doesn't it's not automatically flipping over to the towns or continuing on as is or whatever the disposition scenario is there will have to be some plan you know
if has to be a phased out pro yeah it's going to be a phased process right so whatever the recommendation is it's not going to change on July 1st 2033 um there's going to be a you know an implementation phase but whatever
happens Unless it's status quo as is, continue on as is. But all right, just just raising that issue as you know. Mhm. There's not a hard fast deadline for
everything has to be resolved by this date. We have to have a recommendation into the legislature by then and a path forward, a recommended path forward and the legislature will do what what they will. All
right. Anything else? Well, I think we pretty much I think we got it covered what we want to talk to them about. So, that's good. All right. All right. Next up, meeting schedule.
So, it's been brought up because we're coming up to the end of the uh matrix questions as to going to a quarterly schedule. Here is a recommended schedule. All right. Day long. I've written this down five times, so just to make sure I
got it right. So, we're going to meet on November 12th because we know we got company coming. Okay. Um, unless otherwise stated, you know, unless we have business, we may or may not meet in December. All
right. We we'll we'll finalize that part of the decision in uh next month depending on what what we have that to talk about. Okay? Otherwise, you know, we might not meet in December. So, we would meet so starting a quarterly
schedule if that's what everyone wants to do. And I I think I worked this out. Okay. Meet in January. All right. And then no meeting February, March, meet April.
Okay. No meeting May, June, meet July. That of course could be tweaked depending on people's vacation schedule. So you could either if we decided uh you know move it up in June, move it up to
August or just skip the summer. Okay. Then no meeting August, September unless otherwise stated, meet October and then no meeting November, December. And then we're back to the January.
Still the second Wednesday of the month. Yes, we'll keep the second Wednesday. Okay. Um now, of course, depending on, you know, this little subcommittee, if a grant comes up and needs to get together, then
it would be boom. I don't foresee anyone wanting this time slot. uh here in this meeting room. So you know I would then send out a meeting going hey can everyone meet on empty sum date to discuss this agenda item.
I think the quarterly as you outlined it madam chair makes sense and we always reserve the right meaning for the framework. If we need to meet we can call a meeting within reason. All right.
I like to offer a kind of a variation on the theme which is picking up from what Robert had said but only reversing it. I think that for the the work that this the grant subcommittee will be doing and the fact that we are heading into a super town
meeting at some point. Well, we don't know. We haven't heard anything about a super town meeting. Okay. So what what I'd like to suggest is that we schedule meetings on a monthly basis as we have been
but the chair can pull the members and cancel the meeting. So if there's nothing there are no new there's no new business there's no activity with respect to grants there's no report on the working group then the
chair just sends out a memo says without exception I'm going to cancel the meeting uh and superimposed on the schedule that you suggested so that so that there there it it be becomes an active decision on a
monthly basis whether we have a It's I mean I think that that becomes a little bit confusing um because now you know you might be seeing so for example for the town of air on our calendar is a reoccurring meeting so that no one else
picks books this room. Okay. So now, not only, you know, people are going to look at the calendar and they're going to maybe see what's going on and now it's, oh, I keep canceling. So that when we do have one, I think then there's going to be confusion like, oh, I didn't know you
were going to have one. I think, you know, that again, I think this meeting room will be fine. And I think that in enough time I can poll everybody and say, "Hey, can you meet and and and try to keep our normal schedule in the back
of your mind?" That's it. You know, but I I think that that just causes confusion and I think everybody's been kind of clear that they want a quarterly schedule. I would I would agree with um the chair. I think both would you know you know
would result in the same you know end um where if you don't have to meet you don't have to meet if you have to meet then we can call a meeting and but I think you know the quarterly schedule just seems a little bit more clear I also agree with the chair okay if it pleases the chair I'll I'll
make a motion that we move to quarterly meetings as per your schedule u with the caveat that if we need a special meeting uh we can schedule it uh in a time that matter I okay all right those in favor
I any opposed any abstaining all right I will uh make sure that the uh new meeting schedule gets posted um so that we can start popularizing that.
All right. Next up, I had submitted a policy draft on here uh for discussion on a uh general policy as far as chairperson.
All right. So, I'm going to just go over it and then we'll kind of go into some questions. So, let me get it on here so that it's on the screen also. All right. I think I come up with something nice. Um, and of course we
will tweak as needed. So what I did was I took the town of Aerys select board policy and kind of did a save as and did some tweaking. All right. Now with respect to the chairperson, it would always be by maturity majority vote. Now
I put every two years by annually January being this is when you would rotate. Now, I put every two years because if we're going to a quarterly meeting schedule, this is less than a year of monthly meetings. Um, I don't
know if anybody just wants to just keep changing chairs every year or if they just want to do the business and then do a chair change. Okay. Um, the board may at any time remove the chairperson by a majority vote. Okay? So, if for whatever reason you feel that the chair person
needs to be changed, you bring it up on a motion, there's a discussion, there's a vote. Okay. I put on here a number three. Unless by unanimous vote, the chairperson shall not serve two consecutive terms. Um, that I'm just
putting I put there as a rule. Okay. Now, I I put that there. one it was in our it's on our current policies for my select board okay and we have actually utilized it uh once during co because we were all zooming so it just made sense
but I also put it there because sometimes you have somebody who nobody wants to be chair okay that's been happen there's also the occasion that if everything is is going okay and there's
a lot going on in the committee that people might not feel that that's a good time to change. So, I've only put it in there as just a general rule. All right. Um if at any time the chairperson
cease to be a member of the DJFC for example elected official okay uh no longer on the board no longer part of the committee the vice chair which we're going to cover next is would then automatically become chair because
that's the purpose of the vice chair. All right. And then the vice chair upon the next meeting the then the vice the new vice chair would be voted on. If for some reason there is no vice chair and the chairperson is no longer in this
example. I will use Robert. Okay. I'm no longer a member for whatever reason. There's no vice chair. Robert would convene the meeting. first thing on the agenda would be to vote on a new chair.
Okay? So that's all the only thing he'd be doing. Then a new chairperson is voted on and we we just move on. So and also that the town of the outgoing chairperson does not automatically become chair. Okay? So you don't have to assume that
there's always going to be you know oh is still it because you know she left now air is taken over again. that type of thing. Okay. Um, obviously the chairperson of the board presides over the meetings, make sure that everybody's recognized, calls
for the votes and whatnot. Uh, sets the agendas, uh, posting the of the agenda. Uh, in my case, I also update the website, but that's something that would have to be fixed later down the road if I was no longer around. Okay.
um obviously serve as spokesperson for the board as designated by this committee uh make liaison assignments the whole kitten kaboodleoodle that a chairperson usually does now and it's on the next agenda we we're going to we
should have a vice chair now the vice chair really doesn't have to do anything unless the chair isn't around and if for some reason like I wasn't going to be at a meeting whoever's the vice chair they uh chair that meeting. Okay. So, that's
my draft. Any questions? Yes. Um in keeping with the town not being double represented, would you want then the vice chair to be elected from a town that the chair does not represent? I think that that's a good idea.
Okay. Um, and then if the chair for some reason leaves midterm, is the term started new or does the vice chair step up as the chair to resume that duration of the term or are we starting new? I would say we and we can put that to
resume to resume the um to continue the term of the previous chair, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Continue the term. I picked January because it just seemed like a good idea. Calendar year.
Um and then sorry, one more question. Um when you say unless by unanimous vote the chairperson shall not serve um two consecutive terms, I would potentially just put in parentheses four years because you are saying the terms two years correct
is a term two years. That's that's what's outlined because it's bianual which of course that can always be changed. Executive terms would be four years. Yes. Okay. Is that current? Okay. Just to clarify it there. All right.
Madam Chair, um thank you for putting this together. I I think it is good. I I do like the suggestion brought that the vice chair be from a separate so that
they're not from the same town. All right. So, I want to make sure I'm getting all these notes together. So, vice chair, we're going to add the comment of vice chair should be from a different town. Um, if the vice chair automatically becomes chair, then they're continuing the term, the
original term. And, um, put in parenthesis the four years. Am I missing anything? Yes. Um, we should uh probably not state town. uh we should probably say member entity or
something uh to cover the Devon's residence group uh residents and businesses and the deck. Um so just a little where well it says there wherever it says town
we should have entity or you know member entity or some type of term not just town because there are other representatives than town towns here right number two right but I thought we had all agreed that the chair vice chair I know it had
been discussed should be from a town. Did we? I know it got brought up last I know it's been brought up. So that's what I'm asking. So there's no opportunity for a Devon's president. Well, that's what I I know that had been
said. Okay. So that no. So but I means um I can change that. Uh so the original idea was that the would rotate actually the original idea was on
a monthly basis a different town would chair the meeting and the location would vary among the three towns that was actually that was when we were quarterly during co and we couldn't meet in your town because you said you didn't have
the capability for it and then there was another no room and that's why we ended up here. Um but I know that it has been brought up that the towns um would be the chair or the vice chair because for
one thing we're following the OML and whatnot and we have all that so and the whole minute taking function was rotated among the towns right that's what we had decided yes and it's been working as far as the
meeting minutes and thing. No, but this is a draft. That's what we're discussing. Something to think about just whether or not we include all stakeholders as you know, potential, you know, chair, vice chair position. Well, that just but that also brings up
a qu Well, no, I'm answering my own question, so never mind. I know. Isn't it Isn't that great when I do that? Um, okay. So, let's say the entity and madam chair. Yes. Um should the
should these rules apply to like I would assume the vice chair has voted in every two years as well or should it be chair and vice chair? Yes. Yes. For consistency purposes? Yes.
So everything applies to both the chair and the vice chair. Okay. Add vice chair also for vote. Yes. Okay. So, the chairperson,
vice chair. Okay. All right. We're going to change that to chair vice chair shall be elected by majority vote every two years. Okay. We're adding in the parentheses the four. Okay. Let's see. We're going to
vice chair. We continue the term. Change the words town to entity. Entity just sounds I saw that movie. Number stakeholder. Let's put stakeholder. That sounds better. Okay.
Uh so the state and the vice pair should be from different entity. Yes. I know you don't have minute taking in here but should that also whomever is the chair the that entity is the how do how
you say minutes will be taken by minutes are rotating through the the towns do we want to put that in here I don't well I mean no I don't think I mean I mean somebody from the deck becomes chair should the deck be responsible for
taking minutes Well, again, as far as the meeting minutes go, I know that this bothers you because you bring it up to me all the time. Uh, the me you do, you do a lot. Okay. Um, the meeting minutes, it was decided because the towns have the OML
obligation um that would be taken uh by the towns. That's what this committee decided. Okay. And it's and it's working. The deck is governed by the open media law, right? But that's I'm just telling you what the committee decided. I you know
and there hasn't been a problem. So if there's a problem and somebody wants to correct it, we will. I you know I just don't understand why you keep I mean you bring it up to me a lot and I don't understand why because the process has been working instead of making it personal if we
could stick to the policy. It wouldn't hurt to have it if it's just by or by discussion if we could just put it in. The minutes shall be taken by blank or shall be done at the discretion of the chair. I don't know how you want to word it, but
I through the chair. I I think that the rotating model works. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And so we just put that in there because it it it shifts the burden and then also as we all know if you're taking the minutes all the time and
trying to interact in the meeting. So yeah. So we could yeah that it would rotate per a set schedule or it is um every meeting every meeting it gets changed. Okay.
So, so so whoever is taking the meeting minutes in January the next entity would take it at the next meeting. So that just like we've been doing it. So okay saying to codify it so it's in writing somewhere. Yeah. I mean just through the chair we
could get to put that that level of detail. But I see what you're saying is January, let's say, would be air and then go alphabetical. I'm not concerned about that you have it listed by month, but I would just say minutes will be taken by a stakeholder
um from one of the towns on a rotating basis. Perfect. Mhm. All right. Yep. Get that worded. I got that note in there. So, anything else. All right. I will work on those and uh bring back the uh updated draft on our
next meeting. Gosh. All right. With that, we need a vice chair. Anybody going to make any nominations? Anybody want to be vice chair of Shirley?
Uh I mean we're we're open to being vice chair. there's no other major interest, you know, I think the town of Shirley would be willing. So, all right. Do to we want to pick an individual from the town of Shirley? I do.
I would make a a mo a motion to nominate uh Brian Sawyer, the town administrator from Shirley to be vice chair. I'll second. All right. Any further discussion, nominations?
All those in favor? I. Here says I. Congratulations. We have a vice chair. That was a tight vote. I hope we're still friends.
All right. So, that ends the agenda. So, anyone here for public comment? I Paul I can think better sitting down. Uh yeah, madam chair, thank you for the opportunity. Um I've been taking some
notes and um for the people on the school study that uh was mentioned at the top of the meeting, I would urge you to include uh physical considerations. That is to say, uh my my concern would be just things like headcount, right?
Number of teachers, number of students, maybe number of classrooms. But as as the long-erving members of this committee will know, I'm um I'm concerned that Mass Development will sell every acre of sellable salailable
land. Uh even though explicitly in 498 it calls for them to um deal with uh schools for example, it's right there in the language that that's part of their charter. And when we still have
undeveloped land near the residential areas uh that can be used for municipal use, I I would urge the study committee so that when uh the consultants are hired, they're charged with finding uh specific
parcels of land at Devons that would be suitable in future years for school buildings, playing fields, sports fields, the whole thing, right? Mhm. without necessarily regard to whether it's an elementary school, a middle school, or a high school. Okay. I think
we can say that we'll kick that one down the road because in this day and age um schools take a lot of land. Okay. And having land um a mile away at the other side of Devons from the residential areas would be a bad thing.
I think we can all agree on that. Secondly, um, as the people from Harvard will know, I just had the privilege of working on the get out the vote campaign for the, um, special town meeting that we just had. And in that special town
meeting, the town was asked to approve the purchase of some land for which the town had the money in our reserve funds. So, it would have been no net cost to the taxpayers. We've already taxed them for the money. It was sitting in the bank. And yet um that article failed by
three votes in the spring. It passed by three votes a couple of weeks ago. Um I would say that there is a strong uh ethos, if you could use that word, today of no new spending. Um
and so this notion that um or this uh news really from from um the deck that Mass Development may be working on a uh super town meeting and a educational campaign for a future zoning change for
Vixsburg Square. I I just want to go on record as saying that there's plenty of people certainly in Harvard who will look very hard at what the cost to uh taxpayers might be for such a proposal. And I would I would just say there's
probably about a third of them that even if the cost is presumed to be negligible or or you know zero, they'll still vote against it. Okay. Now, I suspect this is a majority. No, zoning changes already 60%. What is
it these days? 23. 23. It's still 23. It's still 23. Okay. Except at Supertown meeting, then it's majority. Okay. Correct. All right. Well, I'm just I just want to warn people that this is where taxpayers
are these days. Okay. Um third um to the comment that um mass development should be here um we should be careful about what we do because we don't have that participation. Yeah 100%. But I would just I would just say the
flip side of that is please do not let mass development hold this group or hold the towns hostage prevent progress on this for the next five years or as of January the next four years. Um, I I'd be willing to um do a citizens
petition in Harvard so we'd have the whole town vote to ask mass development to come back to the table. Okay. And I'm I think we could probably get people to do that in the other towns and maybe at Devons as well. Um I'm not sure that would change their mind, but it would be, you know, a plebite effectively an
issue. Uh my fourth point is that um And I'm surprised nobody brought this up because in terms of um forcing mass development to re-engage with us, there's a trivial way to do this. The legislators work for us. They do not
work for mass development. We vote them in. We give them donations. Um they want our votes. Um they don't answer to mass development. They answer to the people in this room and our constituents. A one-word change to 498
would basically call their bluff. Change the change 2030 to 2025. Okay, done. Now, what'll mess it up and say, they can't they can't rest on 2030 anymore because it's gone. It'll be out of the language. That's that's well
within the capabilities of the state legislature. it would be introduced by the by our representatives. I can't believe that somebody from Wor not Worcester um Westfield or you know North Adams would vote against something like
that. Um so that's something this this committee should consider. Now having said that it's always about this HDC on which I serve. Um the concern is always well if you if you send the legislature
a wish list of any size for 498 there's going to be kind of a piling on process and certainly there are other things I would love to change in that. Uh but that's still the debate that that this committee would be ideal to work through
the issues on. Um, for instance, you could add the residence as a party by very simple change to 498. You could specify the means by which the utilities would be disposed of. Right now, Mass Development, that's not called up for in
498. Mass Development could just call up National Grid and say, "It's yours. Send us a check." Okay? And there goes the lower electric rates that have attracted so many businesses. That's created so many jobs because it would go to market rates. The reps work for us. Don't
forget that. Okay. They have the power to change the law. Mass development says we're going to follow the law. Great. Wonderful. Finally, to answer the finally to answer the question about the legislature, I researched this a couple years ago, and
I even drew up a a schedule, which I um I could I would be happy to share with you, but but basically, the legislature is a two-year process. Starts in an odd year because the elections are in an even year. So, you may recall there's an
election in about a year ago, 2024. the new we had uh lame ducks then from November of 2024 to December 31st of 2024. Then the first week or so of January of this year the new legislature
took effect. That legislature will be in effect for two years. They start in an odd they end in an even so. So we are in the first year of a legislative term today. So I looked and I thought so what's the deal with 2033? Where does that fall in the legislative term? Well, that would
be it's, by the way, it's June 2033. It isn't January, it's June in 498. So, you'd already be 6 months in to their 2-year term. And the way the legislature itself wants to work, now there can be exceptions to this, but the
way that it's designed to work is the legislators file their bills at the beginning of the term. They're assigned to committee. Committees hold hearings on it and then eventually when the committee's done you massaging it, figuring it out, they they
either, you know, kind of forget about it or they take it uh for a vote. So, um I asked Jamie flat on how long he thought it would take to get the report quote unquote called for in 498 through
the legislature. And in fact, you should ask him this question again when he's on Zoom next month. Please pin him down on this. He said it would he thought it would take a year, but it could take two years. It can't take three because everything
every bill that doesn't get acted on is thrown in it's thrown in file 13. Okay? It's thrown away. Each two-year legislative session starts from ground zero. Starts all over again. So, um, conceptually that report
conceivably, I mean, that report that would be filed in June of 2033, it might not even be acted on, in which case it could be 2035 before it gets passed because that would be the start of the next legislation. Is
that really what we want, Miss Towns? You tell me. Thank you. Okay. Anyone else for public comment? All right. So for our next our next our
last permanent government matrix question is redevelopment authority. Yes. If I may, um, through the chair that I think what the committee had in mind when we put these 19 items together, and Neil, correct me if I'm
wrong, is that would be, uh, the relationship between the the permanent government and mass development after mass development is no longer the interim government. What would the relationship be? And
there may be no relationship. There may not be any work to be done, but there could be land yet to be sold. There could be buildings yet to be redeveloped. So what would be the relationship between the town of Devons or the the towns with the redevelopment
authority which is Mass Development that is that is as opposed to creating a new redevelopment authority. Yeah. The presumption here Masselton has titled to unsold land and sold building. They would that that would continue unless the legislature took it away.
Understood. Okay. Okay. Anything else? So, for the next agenda, we are going to have the we're calling it the housing working group update instead of an education group update. Is that correct?
Uh we're um we're going to work have the uh contingency plan for grants on the agenda. Obviously state representation. I'll have the new draft of the policy
and the redevelopment authority. Am I missing anything for next agenda? Hopefully the presentations from Cena and Yep. That's on Oh, yeah. That's on there. Yeah, because that's for the Yeah, for the state representative. And I just suggest through the chair that this committee has really op up
until now, this committee has really operated on an informal basis. U I think the uh codifying the the the chair and I think is a good thing. But if there's anything else that should be formalized, this would be an opportunity
to do that. Like what? meeting well meeting schedules y minutes for instance was brought up but if there's anything in the in the course of the governance of meeting that that we should be brought up this might
be a good time to do that. Okay. If anyone has anything they want to add it to the agenda please send it to me. Okay. Anything else? I'll make a motion to adjurnn. Madam Chair, I'll second. All those in favor?
I says I. We are adjourned.