##VIDEO ID:GJdoVcHCmcs## all right today welcome everyone today is Wednesday August 14th and this is a meeting of the senior center site selection in building committee this meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this inperson meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance Andor participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for inperson versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID 375 414 6055 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Carly and Elis assistant Town manager at ATM a.m. us or 978-772-4864 729 so can I get are any other amendments before we do a motion can I get a motion to amend the agenda to include the July 29th second second all in favor chair says I wonderful all right great thank you all right so has everyone had a chance to look over the minutes from July 29th those went out last week or and then again um in yesterday's reminder email just like a brief summary of the um public engagement plan that we discussed kind of just getting the wheels I'll make a motion we minut Senior Center s selection build committee me July 29th 2024 second all in favor I okay I apologize for not having me minutes from the 24th and I totally forgot about them but they're done now and I'll get those out to everybody thank you for doing those Caroline and we'll um get those for the next meeting um speaking of which would who would like to take their turn doing minutes from the recording for this meeting well do all right don't all jump at once yeah you can't take the quietness from the crowd to speak up I can't talk so there you go I failed twice I used to teach it s DF JK L7 col SP let's about as far as I can get go do you want to start off with h a summary of the test pits sure yes so discussion of the test pits so I think was on August 1st we Advanced the test fits out at both sites so we started out at the brush dump site and we Advanced two of the ones over there out of the five the other three are in a wooded area and the axis with the back ho wasn't possible what we have to do if we want to move forward with those is we'll have to cut down a few small trees and use the mini excavator to get back there which the water department has so that's why there's only two over there at this time uh 115 Washington Street you can see we got most of those done um we eliminated there was I think one inside the existing storm water U Basin we didn't do that and there was one on the other kind of the north side of the storm water basin North Northwest so towards Washington Street we didn't do that one um because it was the access wasn't really possible but we were able to still do several um out in that area so I think you know we really kind of confirmed verified and saw what we expected at both locations so at at the brush dump we went down as deep as the back ho could go 11 feet and we were in sand the whole time um at both test pits still over there and then at the 115 Washington Street we would hit refusal anywhere from 42 to 7 and 1/2 ft it was mostly Sandy material above that and you can see that in the test excuse me you hit refusal oh yeah refusal it basically means we ran into Boulders or ledge and we couldn't digging something was stopping us from digging any further that's refusal so it was Boulders ledge that stopped us from digging any deeper um so you know I thought there was more cover there than I expected above the ledge yeah yeah and um I think in short that's kind of what those approved um I think now that we have that data and I can work with John and or we can as a group to understand what that means for the the construction with Center well we thought it looked extremely good if you wanted to come join us in long mle you would have seen how awful it could have been um this is really good material because it was sanding we had no real sign of it was dryish you know we had not had a lot of rain right yeah we did not encountered groundwater in any of the and and eventually prior to construction we would do that probably again to look at the soil condition to see where groundwater may have been because soil analysis the guys who are certified in that can see where there might have been groundw at one time but right now that that um proves good news because um number one we have to maintain a lot of the water that's generated off hard surfaces on this site and uh uh that means that if we end up with Chambers underneath our parking lot or other places it should work very well I don't think we perked that day we were just digging around but sand the sand was dry very um a reasonable um condition for um for terms of um drainage in terms of hitting refusal over at Washington Street if it's it I believe most of it was four feet or lower I think most refusal which is good because our foundations are set at four feet maybe four and a half feet um at the time when when actual construction drawings are done we would also recommend um geotechnical drilling more more specifically where you want to go but this is really um this is our this is what we wanted to see when we uh dug out and Dan came back with a lot of the pictures and I think we got a report from yeah I don't know where that standed out or not but but I I would say both sides in terms of soils are good not a problem I don't see a problem yeah I'd add to that too you know our water and our water utilities we typically go 5 feet minimum cover so you know there might be some rock removal but nothing significant as we might have expected maybe not as bad as we expected um and you know and Sewer as well we typically have four feet of cover for that when it's past the building area um just to add to to depth and what we're talking about here yeah and as discussed last time utilities I think one of the positive things that came out of this uh that Dan brought up at the uh Harvard Washington site was the issue of um running into extensive ledge for utilities it appears that we may run into some issues for the water lines but um all in all I don't think it's too bad and on the brush site the brush site are utility are more of an issue but everything is doable depending on what we're willing to pay so that's all good news I thought Dan came back for a positive yeah I thought so too and um when we like for example we can reconstructed High Street a few years ago and there was a significant amount of rock that we had to remove and they basically chiseled that out um and it was probably more than you would need to do for this site and it wasn't a significant cost in my opinion I could to identify what we might be looking at based on our current data and I do believe we're still okay about dealing with the existing U retaining fond there retaining area for the school I think one of our sites just it in between on the fence yeah but but it I I I it was I think that pond was dry at the time it was yeah that means it drains well too it's drain I don't yeah I don't think I've ever seen ponded water in it but I don't check it off that's always a good sign because that means it's sucking down the water yeah something like do so I think far as both sites in terms of constructibility uh they're quite reasonable yeah on I'm just looking at the the most recent um it looks like you um we did the traffic flow to no longer exit on to gr har is this the Harvard Street yeah we um finished the test I'm sorry not fin oh I'm sorry I'm sorry okay um okay so before we get off the test pit stuff we certainly have to thank the DPW for their cooperation yes that's sending the operator and the excavator so that was no class yeah thanks sir that was a good deal we always recognize what I found interesting we did go out and watch the not Road and watch and stre stuff because right down the street of my house um and the operator he must have talked to you right the gentleman running the back home he did like 20 odd holes higher up when they did the schoolwork the same operator that worked the other day was using on the side further up to the land when they were doing the dig for the school expansion the field expansion I should say so he was really surprised that he didn't H any jum because he you said he had all kinds of material through the road often when you go up there's a reason why you're going up there's something hard down there somewhere was very good I appreciate it right anything else on the test pit results seems to me it doesn't eliminate either one of the sites so that's positive Y correct all right do we want to move on to um the alternate site layout so there's two there's two alternate ones so there was the first one that came came out um a week or so ago that had the two layouts up by the practice field uh and I'm actually I'm not sure I printed those um and then the one that just came out yesterday that included the alternate traffic flow both in and out of Washington we um we discussed this at some length in the office and briefly with one of our civil engineers and General Gest was to get both entrance and exit on the same side not to avert confusion as to was this the entrance to the senior center or not so it becomes a lot clear for especially people who may have you know get a little confused so he tried to make it simpler and on the Harvard gr Street Washington Street we offset the U the exit to be a little bit farther from we wanted to get down from the intersection it's always good to have a fairly good length as you're exiting more important as you're entering because you tend to um want to slip out in front of somebody so what we did is we if we came straight out we'd be very close to that intersection and we wanted to stay up down from that and as it's developed it could be that the entire site would slide slightly more um in order to get a little bit farther away intersections always make us nervous the road has a really decent view view shed on it in both directions which is really critical for safe safety for um for older drivers none of which we all certainly you're not um so that's kind of what it is and then it's set up to be the the South even though we're up near the higher areas the south side of the building is the more transparent side has patio and we have drop offs in front of it it's um the um for some reason I think the building shifted a bit in this print it's supposed to be more over here I don't know what happened okay so it's supposed to be more here because I think something something moved on when he was setting this up but the building is that entrance is supposed to be your in line driveway I don't know why I got I'll make sure we get that corrected when it hits out because is the screen sharing when we were in the field he indicated one of these was going to be was supposedly in the elevator shaft location yeah do we know which one it was of these three that's probably this I think it is in the right place what I'm get yeah no but I don't know whether they did to test it there or whether this this whole thing could have been shifted either something's happened here because this this is the front door and the front door is here these guys line up with the handicap lines up with with the service side of the building so there's something a little L for that and I don't have d here to complain to him so yeah yeah see if you go to you go to this guy you see what I mean this him this the first yeah you see what I mean that's Bishop Ro that's different I know this bishop Ro but I'm saying that that's the relationship that this has that high point in the center of the yeah exactly so for some reason that little guy he's much better there this the had before yeah and for some reason I think he left it where it was and shifted this but this is in the right place this needs on this when you have exit you have the exit going out to yeah this needs to be swung this yeah this needs to be swung a little bit he left no no yes we we we upgraded this too to do that he didn't move this I can see that now so if I took my little pin let see how it's here this is way it's to be with these guys like this and this this like at this but there was something that happen in and I and I can be blamed for that because I made him make an adjustment to it um the day before yesterday what what they say on Monday I just the drawing that's incorrect it's not t that were okay no this guy is is correct this guy should have been more like that just to follow back to the test pits for just a minute in the same discussion yeah when we were out there I asked him to do this is test pit 3A over here you got mark his AG but the report came out of I asked him to go 34 32 whatever feet right there because this is the the least grade and exposed to the Sun the better so I asked him can you do one more over there which they kindly do um so I'd like to consider you know the whole thing moving that way a little bit too because it's is so steep I'm afraid it would get blocked up by some of the trees in the back that would be IDE um yeah we'll get that cleaned up um but the idea was to try and get both on the same side rather than creating a lot of extra movement around and then on Bishop it's a little bit more straightforward but it's a straight shot on a very on a much quieter Road and they're both a plus and a negative plus is that it's quieter the negative is just a little bit farther out of the the action if you will int and um and both sides no matter where we dug were pretty good this one had no issues and the other one had a few but they're they're deep enough there so I think we're okay even if we dug somewhere else I think we'd find unless you went up yeah the hill and uh and in terms of vegetation there's a lot that can be done about the vegetation as we work for this there's trees that we want to save and trees that we might not want to save um but I think that report works well and I think what you want to do is think about our idea I one of the problems we have with our Elder centers is making sure we have safe access in and out and the one thing we do is we've been doing for about 25 years with Architects is that we like to have one way in and one way out it takes about two weeks for everybody to figure that out we have lots of signage but people learn that this is where I exit and this is where I enter it because in the past we've had problems or seen problems from other centers where people are getting too close together and some of us don't stay stay in line um and as my team says when they ride with me in the car I'm one of them you you're basically say John that instead of having let's let's say we went here and we had a double barrel entry with an island up the that you would still recommend going to two rather than splitting this you know conservatively so you would have a general idea that you're going in and coming out well the Nifty thing here is that when you come in like fish I see that you're exiting out on the passenger side to the building and when you stick them together it gets a little bit a little bit trickier you have to peel off people and well happen well it gets confusing and we just find it this way it's a good example is Long Middle um uh I've talked to it's now been there for three or four years talked to them extensively and they have found the part like when it first opened was confusing for everybody and now they say it's it works exactly the way they wanted it plus we park them really important to park them with where cars stop without getting over the line and into the other parking space so we create a walk area that's safe from from the parking zones and there there'll be crosswalks here um and it just we're we're we're very careful in our parking a lot of people don't think much about parking you know they don't get too deep into them the other two thing finally mention is we we do make our parking spaces n and half ft wide where's the plow guy he's gonna plow let's get his opinion on I'll tell you little secret about my that's the guy that you really want to talk to is the guy that's move the snow in the winter time he probably has to plow about 10 times so if you change your whole par lot for 10 plows times 25 years that's 200 yeah so John we do two two we do an entrance and an exit right yeah I mean if we did one what's the cost comparison we're going to do two Street Cuts we two I mean talking pennies pretty ins significant yeah we do this all the time we never had a a big issue with it um you'll see this and well in wilham we we enter an exit where they do for the town hall entry one way out the other that's already was there EAS but in Long medal we we've done it this way and all of the other and so how does everyone feel about this latest building position with I me It's relatively the same building position but with both entry and exit off of Washington Street as compared to the one that's the single piece of paper front and back that's printed um which are the alternate layouts um that I believe Ken and Dennis had asked for after our last meeting that we up closer to the practice field did everyone have a chance to look at those and see well I like the idea of going in and out on Washington Street because it's just for dealing with traffic personally because I live close by there and um I I feel we' have to have some kind of traffic mitigation on um Harvard Gren Road it's just there's cures you can't see there's people coming really faster there whereas Washington Street is much easier and in some cases they have the duol zones up and you know I think it would uh be safer now I like it up there more than I like it down here also because there's less parking spots in the ones that are lower I think there's like 40 or 60 spots as close to 100 right which I think is not enough moving it near the practice field dramatically decrease the number of parking spots so the the layouts that are in the stapled packet are the ones that um include it down at the triangle sort of at the bottom of this of the BR harbard Road one and then the layouts that are printed front and back with no staple those are the two alternate layouts putting it up by the practice what we don't have any testing unfortunately up by the practice fields either that's unfor well we can always do something so I Dan can't wait to get to back out there guy thought was another one that show both sides I thought it was one up by the fact that they talking on either side of the was up last week I didn't that one there were just two alter right we just had it only on one side other than then there handicap parking and service knowing a little bit about Harvard Gren Road and you know the entrance to the to the transfer station it looks to me like this alternative one where you um you know you might have the same site issues that you coming out on the transfer station which isn't good line of sight issues yeah yeah that that's really tricky it's hard to tell in here but because you're at the top of the hill but I don't know if you do get yeah what the site distance is problem I have with the washing Street two entrances so weing at one at the drawing to the left the only issue this is coming can I don't think I think was the street and GR Road are both they're both busy street no matter what I don't care what you say they're both busy right I'm talking about as you approach when you're in a high squad over here it's a little flatter at the top by the the uh you know trucking company but Washington Street that's pretty steep as you're coming right down I think that to the right I think that for some of the seniors going downhill in inclement weather you know and then having to stop to take the r or it's just I mean it's obviously that's well it's a steep hill let's say or a pretty serious downgrade so if you're coming from that end of town you're going to have to be going downhill then to take the ride and then back uphill which in in inclement weather might be uh you know dissuasive for uh for wanting to go out a lane there that's the other option I guess yeah and also um you could also probably do some kind of speed mitigation yeah yeah not that anybody pays attention but yeah they could we're talking a lot about gr har really watching kind of leaning towards that well we just hadn't gotten to the other one yet here's the other one and the reason why probably that got a little bit more is because as Dan has pointed out um utility issues we have gas electric water s sewer right there we don't have sewer here Electric's a bit of a challenge I think it would be propane right do we have you gave us some numbers yeah the one that was a shocker was the power I think it was a million bucks yeah that that that makes me kind of quing a little bit we said we said one really a 1.2 1.4 million to do we were talking a quarter million utilities to do ro yeah significant difference yeah in fact even a quarter million I think it's conservative I but that's good I'd rather be conservative because as we dug around there might be some rock in the way but I think there's a lot less than we thought yeah and talking with my guys who've done digging back there it's been they call it Sugar Sand it's just a very Sandy area so it's really confirm what we thought we didn't obviously we missed three of the test pits but it's um but we also looked at the soils review on the state level right and it's pretty much that soil type is yeah but there alternate are there alternate ways to fund like I guess what are the mechanisms to fund brain utilities into this site is is rolling it into the cost of the project the only option or are there other ways to accomplish it um I mean you're probably asking about grants and I have to look at what ones might be applicable here that you know could tie into a senior Center housing um I don't know if you can piggyback it if there's going to be any future development you could kind of yeah John do you have any thoughts on that one well once you get into this scene you know and you're in your you get your you get your basic Town funding yeah which should be done in a way that covers everything and and in that process if you can get through that process uh we have found that there's a number of things you can find to get money uh that that mitigates it the IDE what what we've often done with towns is that we go in saying it's a $10 million project and the the job of the 5013c is to raise 200,000 and there's possibility of these grants for another half million dollars and that could begin to mitigate the cost but you often don't get until you start moving ahead it's very hard to raise money for something that is not yet set the other thing I found and it's happened I think in um several towns is that our local reps often can get a u what do they call it ear Mark ear Mark it's called back room negotiating I guess but um to give you an idea in hubberston they got $500,000 or 750,000 was a fair amount of money um and that's happened in at least two of the projects three of the projects that we worked on that takes some political work you know working with your and that's another source there used to be and I don't think it's come back yet but federal government one time realized that if we take good care of our elders they cost a lot less so the Fed used to be we used to get a a fund and I'm not sure whether there's we still get the money but whether we can carve off a piece of it it used to be $25 million a year was allocated to a community senior centers and how that got spent you know sometimes it's for construction sometimes it's for operation it's for a bus or a truck um that is also another area that you're State Rep state senator help you so if I could so I think we can acknowledge that the cost of the utilities or getting utilities to Bishop roog will be substantially above what R har would but the question about the cost of utilities aside in terms of the desirability of the location the ability to build the structure the ability to kind of position it in in a way that is advant P for the community what's that all all the site work involved getting on and off of the site where does Bishop Road fit in in all of that kind of conversation about it's the best yeah there's no question about it I mean I was thinking a massive amount of land to work with store materials put a trailer and put all the temporary utilities and put whatever you going to do stock pile material I imagine if you don't think about the cost you know which one is preferable and and I'm looking back at our ratings everyone's most people were voting for this one so it's really that's kind of the only I think I don't think staging on the side was irrelevant between the two sites I don't think it makes any difference in terms of construction and setting up but but I I can't speak to your preferences I think that's strictly this Committee in town I think that Bishop Road is a more agitas site if you're looking farther down the road that you want to do some kind of expansion because once we take gron Harvard we're locked into whatever that portion of land that we take out from the school system is that's it we can't go anywhere at least at Bishop Road if we wanted to we could always go back to the DPW and say hey we wna you think we might not be there then or we could always go back to the town and say you know this this section behind it over here we'd like to put some walking trails or some paths or we want to expand a pickle ball CT or something else I think that's a safer entrance and exit then on Bishop Road is a safer exit and of course there's nobody on I I would say that in terms of um from my viewpoint I think you get pickle ball courts up both of them um and you do have one thing that we find a lot of our C I'm not pushing for either one I I don't care which site you you end up on but I can tell you right now the school playfields are are really huge for elders to come and watch the game or even use them to walk on but the problem is John is a hill is a serious Hill you get up either way they're going to walk a Long Hill up Washington or they're going to walk up a steill and it's the best thing you can do as a senior guarantee you no one's gonna do it no one's gon well I'm sorry but I've got projects where we got people walking 10 miles I think this is a really great example of how diverse it is to be a senior and how wide the needs are and why we need a larger more capable building because some people will have no problem walking up either one of those roads to watch games most many users won't so I my concern is that there at broton Harvard Road there will be an expectation that there's a connectivity that won't actually materialize because of that Hill even though we sit in this meeting and say that um but there will be an expectation um and my my other concern or caveat to this site is what is a shortterm issue versus a long-term issue so you know I've heard some people say I don't even know where you're talking about over on Bishop Road whereas I think once someone drives there couple of times even though it's unfamiliar they'll get familiar and so the hesitation or any barrier to use will be like initial just the first couple of times and then it'll be good to go versus if we don't get the traffic right here or people don't like the traffic at the Gren Harvard Road Site that's not like a the first time I use it that's a every time I go the traffic is an issue you so may that's I you know I I think one of the advantages of the um the Harvard Gren site is that it's really close to aut to the hospital have to realize I'm really an optimist and I just cannot imagine I cannot imagine it gone I just cannot but I've seen three or four of them all over the place and they're they're outside of towns they're not in the center where we're talking thinking up two and also they're which ones which ones are you I was up in main doing a job I was Hampshire they're not in the center of town you know well I our 25 of them almost all in the center yeah almost way out of town not even close yeah well I didn't do problem one of the things I'm concerned about because I'm starting to hear questions from people about it because we've done the program at a Bridge um cost and people are wondering how big is it is it state-ofthe-art is you know does it have to be that much and um um there's questions about the um transfer station whether there's any chance of I don't know what what they're worried about but feel like they just get this negative feeling about Transportation like well if it's a landfill if it was whatever is it some is there going to be odor is there going to be anything and I don't know if we've done any due diligence on whether there's anything at that site that could impact the Harvard Road site but um that's a question I have but the cost and it is a significant difference in cost to go um to Bishop Road I like Bishop Road I really do but I am starting to get kind of worried you know we're a small town and and uh we are small we don't have a cost we don't have a cost estimate small town we this town's grown dramatically it's only going to grow I want to make one comment in going elected that I have not given up on the electric utilities at Bishop yeah I just gotta get to but two just yeah I reached out to my engineer like tie and bomb that he didn't get back to but when you look at it we have a gravel access road which is probably where you want to run the wires down and that ends up being about 1500 foot run but if you did it as the bird slides it's 800 feet but you're going up the Steep through the woods and back down so I you know with that access holds in I don't know see I'm first get back B and then you're still not getting Horizon the other utilities as well which you get from time the other point so I mean it's good to look into in terms of the utility cost and you know to El point the cost of the entire structure I I think that there's going to be some sticker shock I think it's fair to say this members of the community the cost of the building I think for us the I mean the the the job is to put that into the context of a 30 to 50 year old 50y year long investment in the community and that if you amortize the cost over that length of time and the benefits that will appr to the town as a result of having the structure um um that's what justifies the cost that is if we can't we have to be able to say to the community um this is worth the investment um and the one-time Capital cost necessary to build the structure will be repaid to the community in any number of ways that we can that we can then outline for them whichever site that we're on that the cost has to be amortised over a 30 to 50e time Horizon and what are the long-term benefits to the town I think what might be helpful is if we had a conceptual cost for both sites you know at this point because looking at gr Hy you know going to deal with some ledge the storm water basin we have to underground that I don't know that's true most sites you got underground couldn't you do a retention Bas something oh we have a retention Bas over on on the bishop so you know funny yeah we have a we have a cur retention basing at Washington yeah but the parking lots over yeah well it doesn't mean it doesn't go somewhere else I thought it was going to go somewhere yeah so that we G to slide undergrounded or something but I maybe you could move it that would be I mean a simp so anyways I think it' be nice to know even you know we know the utilities cost more on this site um not Bishop Ro but maybe if we had it for each one it might I could ask my civil engineer his comments I would say though that that he took he put this guy Mas there is space on site just right now the nice thing about it is the chambers would be underneath here where were the current retention PL but whether it ends up you know sliding along here over here it isn't a very big item um yeah I would say that both s i I would certainly if we could do a surface retention it would be less expensive yeah we do a lot of under the parking lot because a lot of our cers are in towns in urban environments and you don't have that now in wilam we're right next door to a wetland so we creaded our retention PL adjacent to the Wetland and it's big it's it's probably 150 ft long by 30t wide by 5et De by way doesn't retain much interesting about attention outl to the dump side of theet do that go under the road to another side of the street before it turns around and comes back under Washington Street in the other direction not in the same right so when they designed that originally that the capacity for that may have been under sized and you needed to go across the street to have capacity yeah and I haven't it was as part of the landfill capping that's when the Basin was put in that's the currently proposed parking lot shown over so that that Basin and the landfill Basin put at the same time and then they yeah you're right they discharge over near number 150 whatever every one of them requires a discharge I don't know got be like there like a 30 in it's pretty large pipe that takes all the drain from up at the school comes down into this Bas and and that you know that's more it's almost like a big forb basically taking all the siment out and then it goes across the street basing at the transfer station which the transfer station takes the landfill range too kind of but yeah I I don't I don't have any they do have well in in the final analysis our Engineers are really good at um you may I know we're Ty bonds aware of how all that stuff works because they've been working um pick the brain but I uh I uh I would say that both sites are doing so to Dan's message like how how close are we to having some sort of a conceptual cost estimate because that comes from that's part of your contract right John I already started I I think that might well we only have it's two and a half months until the the town meeting or less and and we have to be out promoting you know so we we need some Robert did you want to comment yeah um Madame chair members of the committee um good evening just a couple of quick thoughts on on where you are in the process I think the first thing to keep in mind is ultimately the goal of the committee is to recommend a site uh to the select board um as your charge for the project so that being said obviously you're doing all of your due diligence and want to recommend the optimal site um for the project now of course price is going to be a part of the viability of whatever is recommended and as we all know experience with public projects no matter how much the project costs somebody isn't going to to like it that's part of the process but I think at some point um what would be helpful is we need to get approximate or we need to get cost estimates for both sites um the town's Finance uh Team specifically the finance manager and our bond counsel and so forth um I think need to do some analysis um and come to perhaps one of your your meetings to discuss um the costs and what I mean by that is we have to do a a definitive look at the borrowing capacity of of the town for the borrowing piece the good news is there are some things coming off the debt schedule I think we need to look at the overall financial piece in addition to the the borrowing component also are there some other um funding sources and ultimately at least right now um The Lion Share of the project would fall into the realm of a debt or capital exclusion which as many on the call know is is a two-part uh process it would have to be approved by town meeting and it also has to be approved by a ballot um of the voters of the town of air uh on the financial front um I think there's still uh some work that needs to be done in some due diligence and we all want to get this um you know project you know moving forward um from my vantage point uh the the timeline for the fall town meeting um is getting very close and what I mean by that is on my final point just for the benefit of the committee is on Wednesday um August 20th the select board is going to officially open the warrant for the fall town meeting and approve the schedule um for the warrant articles and based on that schedule that they're going to approve the warrant articles are going to be needed by Friday September 27th and the select board uh will review and approve those on October 1st so there's a very we're coming up on a very tight window however as the committee knows because the select board said this many times publicly and is that they are willing um to consider you know a special ch meeting um for the purposes of this project so again I appreciate the opportunity to address the committee I think the takeaways are we need to get cost estimates for both sites so we can do some further uh due diligence on the financial piece so we have all of the information and the information for the public and secondly I think we need to be beginning to be thinking about the schedule um for approval um of the funding for this um in that uh the window for the fall town meeting is is getting tight thank you yes very good points every one of them Robert can I thanks for that um can I ask would it be possible to get from the finance manager and and the bond counil or Bond people perhaps two or three that is if the number is we'll give them three numbers and to compare and contrast if it cost this it's going to be that if it cost you know what I mean so that we can say you know the difference in price or the difference on the debt exclusion will be such and such depending you know what I'm trying to say we get that we get three numbers from the finance instead of just one so yeah through the chair um to Mr Curran's point yes barara could run um some scenarios just as you said like let's just say the the numbers 20 thou 20$ 25 million I mean again this is conceptual in in at that point um the more specific is always the better but yes scenarios could be run and to see you know what on the capacity the debt schedule um and this is more of of her Wheelhouse in the sense that there's also ways um potentially and and how we borrow it um there's a whole process to find out you know the optimal situation can also break it down to the estimated cost impact to the average residential tax bill average commercial bill so I think there's a lot we can do um and will do and be happy to meet with the um the committee um and I think getting the finance committee involved too um with that process is important um but yeah we can we're here to you know work on that um but I again the more specific the better I also think as we've discussed in the beginning the more that we have other funding sources to the extent possible also greatly helps you know the case as we move forward okay thanks for that robt y all right so um just to loop back to those alternate sites does anyone the ones that are on that single page does it did anyone like those more than what we're looking at here in the center of the table well I mean and when we I know that Carolyn originally walked up there with that I think Kennon for me the gron Harvard site was initially preferable but a large portion of my preference for it derived from the fact that the building would have access to the playing field out the back and that there would be kind of an easy way to um par integrate what was going on in the senior center with the use of the practice field during the day and that kind of thing but it seems that trying to squeeze the building in there both in terms of parking on GR I'm sorry travel on gr harbard and the availability of parking and the potential for Mor ledge there then down below um would argue against those sites um so what I mean for me what yes I I would conc that those sites are are less viable than the ones that that John has has outlined as being further down um but again the detriment for me is that then you know well maybe what we should do is look at how the access could be to those fields I don't know we have not this is a feasibility study a lot of that gets worked out ultimately in final design but we would like I I think it's worth our effort to look at that and I I would really a lot of our seniors good 15% have mobility issues and they're not going to be trumping up to the fields they won't they won't even be using IF on a two-story building be using the stairs they'll be using the elevator and there's a good reason for that but there's a whole group of seniors Who Will trump up to those fields or walk the stairs I think we did a study in um in folio where we found 87% of everybody who used the senior center used the stairs and and um and sometimes some of them didn't use the stairs because they went up with a and had a walker but it was a very high percentage and the one thing that we're doing you know is really promoting physical exercise whether we do it with a fitness center with you know with with a treadmill you know or or a bike or whatever or whether you can do it outside we're talking about having a walking Track around the building um that is a real concern of ours by the way we think that's pretty expensive item but we're going to have it budgeted in um and it's also kind of a an estatic issue too try to work out you prating um around the building so and we'll look at some of that when we get to the next level um but I can tell you right now I'm going to be 80 shortly I just played a squash game for two hours this afternoon that's me I'm not totally typical but it really makes a difference in physical exercise whether it's yoga walking running playing pickle ball you want a pickle ball court that Crees a lot of activity if I can play pickle ball I can walk up to those fields so um I would just say having the opportunity to walk to the fields and see games is a big part of physical exercise and it's a positive not everybody can do it for sure but those that can Will and it's a positive thing so I I'm not trying to we go over to the brush site and there's a lot of interesting opportunities over there too in terms of walking but it's much more level it's not quite as challenging I think challenge is important that's why we have stairs but we still have the parking issue because there's no backup parking anywhere around there and if we've only got 40 or 60 parking areas and we have a room where you can see 150 people for a special event but there's no place for them we have they both have 109 talking about the ultimate so the first one so the two main ones both have 101 plus 78 the two alternate layouts let's call them the two layouts next to the playing field one has um 50 plus 5 adaa and then the other one has 63 plus 5 a they're pretty small so not VI you would like to have 100 spaces so I presume the reason that these alternate layouts don't include 100 like the main ones do is because it just wasn't possible to fit them in there yeah we were squeezed by both slope and um we wanted to squeeze them up tighter to the U that spot we spread out much more pushed out onto the side on both sides we tried to get 110 parking spaces that's so I in particular like than was hoping was hopeful that the building would be able to you know fit up the street in these spots we just shot back here but after I walked out there the other day on that site again I found it to be not as steep as I thought I was visually um interestingly enough I not so sure the great shown on this what we're looking at is right but when I was out there I found that you could walk if you built a walk up this way gradually you could hook it up through the field not steeply but kind of work it around it could be ad accessible actually right it has probably has to be but a long more of a curve now the other thing I had was a total blowout idea like yours I like ever built a bridge John off the second floor it may not be a hell of a bad idea to where right to that field there's a short distance if you go right across off the second floor the second floor is quite a bit higher from the field here you can see the walk up to the next field yeah yeah so it's it's a trick matter what you do yeah I mean the town of the School District the high school in Harvard has a bridge that comes off a second floor to access the parking lot at the bramfield school it's not I mean they just redid it I wonder how much that was IDE it could also be something done at later J yeah you could yeah one thing too you we you know the committee will still have to present to the school committee and and I know the the practice field is something they've thought about expanding in the future so close we are to it maybe it's not as to them yeah you went in front of them and talk to school you were talking about that site there now if we move it up further we'd have to go back again say she hasn't talk we haven't talked yet formally yeah that we have a formal talk with the school committee next week um yeah next Wednesday so if I and I I don't have the document in front of me but if I remember correctly looking at this one that's up there it was um it was the end was going to Fan out from the end of the practice football field sort of that way which was going to involve some major must have involved some major grading because that's where the steepest drop part of the drop off is one of the whole one of the setbacks for them is the the considerable drop off I mean we're talking yeah you go couple hundred yards but I guess my point is either way with either placement of the building we're we're clear of that spot do that me that's there's no question that Cy to show the other thing that's when you get in there there's a lot of nice wooded areas there so you do get shielded from the street automatically or when you're up here and you get closer to the road going to be much more evident that you're going to go by the street when you drive in here this is going to feel like a private spot when you when you build it up because it's a tree there's protection anywhere around it so it's a wooded kind of a nice wooded site cling pool's going to be really I think difficult to get from there the so coming back I think I agree with Dennis I like this layout the the most upto-date one with the two driveway cuts and Washman I like that better than the just personally my this feels like a pretty nice private s the one the one the one drawback on Bishop Road is the The Unknown about the utilities I mean you got you got some numbers I can tell you right now unless you can get somebody else to fund the power it's really hard to bury that into that budget you're going to you're going to end up shrinking the building one way or the other because right now construction is is really high it's not growing like it did two years ago but it is it's still moving at a pretty good clip I've not recently updated myself with my cost estimator but I know that a year ago a year and a half ago we're working on another thing and the numbers were not pleasant so if we took the numbers that we had from uh wilham which is the most recent it's a it's a pretty stiff number it's about 750 800 bucks of a foot not soft costs those are construction costs soft runs another 15 to 20% depends what we run into in terms of you know the nice thing today is that um the bidding process is a lot less expensive because we do it electronically we used to cost us $20,000 if did a big project printing sets we're killing trees left and right we don't do that any um so I there are positives that are helping us digitally in this business but right now sourcing you know unless we get a little bit you know it's a double-edged sword we get a dip in the economy people have feel less comfortable about spending money and if we don't get a dip it gets more expensive so it's it's a balancing as and when we do our estimates ultimately we can give you what we call Our Best guest estimate at feasibility when we get into the construction documents we do it at um 30% uh 60% and 90% And at 90% that's the go number and then we add in alternates that might help us you know things we really like the bridge you know or or or the yeah but but you know to give me idea I'm overand we took all the alternates but the stage which was an $80,000 item U but we took them after the bid because they came into a large amount of money from the inflation reduction act which of course pushed the price up but I won't get into politics but but they added $2 and half million dollars to the project because they had the money and maybe Robert will tell us about that can we go back and what were you talking about with the 30% 60% of of what and of the construction documents as as we progress the sign design we keep wanting to know where the budget is because we may have to make adjustments at 30% or 50% and at 90% we hope we're and I can tell you that although I knock knock on wood that's think wood right this is real wood when knock on wood our estimates our our feasibility estimates have been almost exactly on the final budget but that's because we have to make we have to make adjustments as we go along that stay within the budget that we were predicting now when you go to town meeting you'll I'll have to work on these numbers because I want to be conservative but if you're too conservative you kill the project and if you're not conservative enough you get a shock down the road so we have to it's a very it's my most nervous time in my business in my life is for the bids C it's very you know because Massachusetts it's file sub bid its wage rates that are set and I don't know if we if if the town decides they have some federal money in this then we have federal wage rates if we use State money it's state wage rates and because where we are in the state the wage rates are a little bit lower where we are versus if you're downtown Boston so those are all things that come into the factor and I do have some very early numbers which I don't want to throw out but I I want to maybe talk to Katie a little bit about um so did we want to move on to the elevation how about I promise my my partner life I'll be home by 10 o' all right where you have to go to I'm going to an island in New Hampshire really Midway up how long does it take longer than I wish yeah it's actually I I I I checked it out when I got here it's about an hour Just sh I two others in the dark I'm sharing now the latest floor plan and this is the first floor yeah yes um one piece of feedback I've been you know talking to some of our current Senior Center users because it's easy access and some of our regular users one point they brought up um John is let's say you know we've been talking about the large multi-purpose room being able to be kept divided for lunch most of the time and um and then joined into the larger space for big functions but the patio is on the opposite side yeah uh and I've noticed that I think that's that way in Wilbraham as well so some people are asking questions well what if it's a regular lunch day and there's a midday program or exercise class or something going on but we want to eat lunch outside so yeah what are your well at long meal we do eat outside because it's dead centered right um and the patio can be moved that way okay we wanted also be somehow connected to the lounge library because there's a lot of action there there is a separate patio for the cafe out front right okay and whether there's no reason why the I doesn't come around we just limited its size for now but but it could be smaller over here and come around and grab the rest of that so but go ahead so for for I mean one thing for us to think about is is it preferable that the patio connect to the library and be somewhat closer to the lounge or is it preferable that it connect closer to the kitchen and the other side of the well logist I mean so you're saying that they're outside the cafe not the library side but the cafe side so the front side of the building there'll be space to have tables and chairs outside essentially the entrance yeah you could EAS you could easily just put a patio here have one here they're connected by the walkway right it it's not smaller here bigger over there we have one here oh this is no that's that's the cafe right you we talking about this no she's talking about this so some of the yeah so some of the the some of the feedback I got was John I'm gon to reach over you for a second was that this is where the line is here for that yeah um partition and that this would be set up for lunch for 40 or 50 people all the time and then exercise would be going on all day long kind of in this room but if somebody wants to eat their lunch outside they've either got to carry their plate through the exercise class or go out and go across the the building go down I thought that was great feedback then on the other hand though you have to be considerate obviously depends a little bit on the site placement but you also do wouldn't want the patio right next to the service ENT entrance to the kitchen and where the generator is going to be coming and you know I think that's a great point you know and I will Dan and I will come up with an answer for you I think it's excellent um in long metal we don't have that problem because the patio is connected to the main our multi-purpose room is actually smaller in window because they have the gymnasium right right and also we did not do it here and you may have seen it if you've been to wilam it's not a raised platform but in long metal we have a raised platform connected to the patio outside and then for presentations we didn't do that here we thought might be a little expensive um but what we did do is we did this we have a a door that opens up all the way and allows both a performance or talk here and out here or it can just be open between the two um there's no reason why this might not also occur over here okay the actual patio is not a highly expensive item um the building it's all about and also we could put that um you know different ways of doing the Pao is ADD alternates is part of hitting the budget just like we often put the the movable partitions as ADD alternates because you can put those in at any time we we put the structure in for now in the power but we don't necessarily and those you know this one here is is an $8,000 wall the one upstairs is a about a 45 ,000 so those are add alternates and we we play that game because we want to hit the budget you can if you're within 10% most towns dig into their contingency I don't recommend that I like contingencies but because it's new construction we generally carry maximum of 7 a half% contingency um our experience to date is that we've rarely exceeded the second half of that contingency so we get kind of flexible down end if we see a lot of money left over we can put the wall in it so that's kind of what that that kind of system works so that's why we do estimates if we go too and part of that estimate process is starting to talk with you as a committee as to what is a reasonable at alternate and what isn't and we usually limit ourselves to about six at alternates we don't want to get it too complicated for the biders yes I'm sorry the drive up Portico is still not there which is something I feel very strongly we need to have because we saw at one of the places people you saw was in gr well they Gren has one but I'm talking about we went to one of the sites and there was a a van of special needs people getting off the van and having to sit in the snow in their um Wheelchairs and stuff because there was no place to take them out that was protected well all the all our centers have a port corer that comes all the way out to the actual spot where you get out of the van if we don't go over it I'll tell you why we don't because in many cases you'll come in with a bus and you have to raise that up to clear the bus and if you don't I can assure you I've seen it they hit it and damage it so if you want to have a you have to go all the way up to the second floor for that item to come out and it's crazy we we avoid those like the plague we've never had a lot of any complaints really about how we build it right out to where you exit out of whatever vehicle you're getting out of um and you go directly underneath a cupboard area so does this elevation kind of explain what you're talking about well have you been to any of these in the past you been toand yes I've been hand over but I think to Ellen's Point perhaps this would alleviate some of the this is the covered no see it yeah and and it comes right out to it comes right out if you look at it comes right smack out to where you where the where the curb is and this is a zero um curb it's it's will your wheelchair right over it you're immediately on underneath cover and um there will be a couple ballards there because we don't want people driving into the building but um it we have found that effective you can certainly talk talk to the directors of other centers but when you do I can show I can give you some images if you go down to Rochester they have a for cocher and the one in U in um Bon has one but yeah but it's a very different building to but um so if I look at the second page of elevations where it's giving the sorry second the here the actual Heights for the second floor I see you've noted the 13 six inches just at Flor right so like our our van for example requires a 10 foot Ean clearance so um that gives you an idea of well any kind of structure has at least 18 to 24 in of structure from back of the floor right but go ahead I was always trying to get a sense of like you could see Ellen where 13 feet that's his 13 six or a k 1 so you're GNA be looking at that would be where the top of it would be essentially because right it's F of structure and we would need 10 ft clearance well I went over today to um Dev and looked at the they have two hotels that have little p and one is 12 foot and one is uh 14 y so you're saying we can't put out anything how many stories are the hotels about four four stories two two sure what two I don't think so it was pretty I've done a couple hotels too we do have for shares but they're they're up they're large enough to have a a bus that would take you to Foxwoods slide but we don't need so well but guess what a fox like a bus like that can show up and you cannot get underneath that and we've had uh in dexur we built a port crocher and uh about 18 months a year later a two years later a bus drove into it and dislodged the whole thing it's just it's it's a really I I can show you some images there is another solution too if you anybody been to chapi it's it's a lot more modern but it's not dis similar to the way we're trying to do the walkway um we could also we did this in Lexington Kentucky we built a uh we build a right where these columns are in front we continue them along and we project it up high big can lever space up high that clears everything so the buset can drive underneath and generally a straight down rainstorm or something it's not a big issue but a lot of these things um right now if I pull up with a van with handic people in it I'm dislodging them right at the canopy and you're you're immediately underneath that uh canopy nobody's sitting in the snow or in the rain you may get a little D that one that you're talking about doesn't have a cover over its sidewalk at all which one are you talking about Sudbury no she's talking about this one right here the one that I saw where they had they didn't have anything that's what you're talking about that's the Devin yeah right no I'm saying one you're talking about where people were sitting out in the snow Yeah they didn't really have much of anything I think sbur but Sudbury didn't have what would that cost if we did like just you like a hip roof coming over with palms and play can drive what would that cost I mean everyone just free for here they're really ad about having it's I can tell you another problem um we have a lot of seniors if you go down to stoton they've uh they've had the columns knocked down twice by cars because they go out s let me send you some pictures of those to look at and I will send show you what we did in Lexington joh could you tell me the the distance between the outside columns here in the building itself like how much space would there be in there for people to congregate or that comes out about 20 ft 25 20t and it's got It's got benches on it too underneath it of the covered walkway yeah oh no but we go beyond this is the covered walkway which is like 8T this comes out to the door inside here and this can be adjusted any which way so um Town's a good example of one that has a covered area right to the curb but not Beyond it yeah and that's about between the columns you can actually drive up in there if you wanted to you shouldn't yeah but you you could under a special circumstance not the van that's why we put big giant ball so do you think this is adequate I would like to see what it would look like with one on it um and understand the cost of it to to know um I think if it's feasible and possible I think it would be an asset um wait see I think I'm gonna go with John on this one what oh my God but the concern would be by raising walk get out car step under the the that is the four share where's that Rochester if the if the if the overhang is we do them in concrete if the overhang is taller with second floor building Yeah we actually show them how much I can't tell you which Community is that that's in Rochester Rochester okay okay I'll show you another one too John I think that's gonna if we do what we're talking about that's going to change the whole structure of the building change the whole roof it's dramatic I can tell you as an architect Rochester is one of the ugliest cers SE this is just think you're a country club or something with lineup of limos now I'll show you another one we can't call this a country club it's not no I had that shot down in one job when the slman got cut up said we're taking care of a bunch of greedy old yeers no this just embarrassing okay now another one um let see this check I think say syrial or you think we can ask any questions on the elevations yeah yeah well let's look at the second floor real briefly because because um there were a couple of changes there yeah we made some changes to the second floor um we um reduced the glass went into this into the second we we moved as you know we moved the fitness over here took the fitness area and put a divider in it so you get two different glass activity rooms left one activity here and we reduced amount of glass to kind of peek in rather than glass all the way AC looking down on yeah although when I do my yoga work I don't mind the girls looking at me I noticed that the um I don't know what you call them Dormers or whatever on the roof yeah um on this elevation they look asymmetrical is that just Noe they are asymmetrical I hate symmetry as an architect but you may love it I am we did two things ASO we did the this one reversed and this one the other way um and um it's more of a architectural aesthetic the one problem I have with all of the elevations is the walkway I I'm not a big fan of it we're trying to suspend it because if we had to build columns all the way around it it would cost more you wouldn't believe how expensive it would be to have columns around the walkway all the way around the building so what we did is we're hanging it off the structure I'm not a big fan of that either I I really think that what we're trying to do with that walkway and I'm not disparaging it except that we're trying to get a walkway that we would have had in a gym but we don't have a gym so and and I think we're artificially trying to create a walkway which by the way in the dead of winter with the wind blowing snow blowing I don't care if got calms or not it's not a Pleasant area to walk it's good in the rain probably if it's a nice steady R rain at all I yeah I'm not is that quite wide we made it about I think six feet wide go ahead so when we were when I was originally proposing this idea I was envisioning it more like a farmhouse concept with a wraparound porch which would include the columns but having the columns then would allow you to have added eyes and glass at some point later if you wanted which I'm sorry that's a voting word eyes and glass like the windowed side of a wedding end as a thing later this obviously doesn't allow for that because I I see your point here that as this is designed at six feet with a cover over it will help at noon in the summer and with a straight down rain but it's not going to do anything for WI weather if we did columns I can tell you right now that we'd be adding 3/4 a million to the more than that proba how much does the roof overhang have I can do that less probably quar million to 300,000 because it's a what we would do is a it'd be a flat roof with a slight slope to it we drain off the far end and we would just hang it off the steel structuring and by by the way that's not when I say just is not it's not quite that simple I get a big problem on that so yeah I know I wants all TI it into weather make a weather type keepu big snow load you have to calculate for that I would actually I would have it two inches off the wall still G could two inches off the wall I would not flash it into the wall it'd be way not only expensive but it a cost Factor down the road in maintenance I think it takes away from allity yeah I I like the idea of columns okay you can make them look really nice and I can show you a drawing that way but I can tell you going all the way around the 10,000 square foot is a lot Robert you had your hand up I'm sorry I didn't see there Madame chair U members of the committee um I was just going to suggest in and these are all very important details and so forth but I was just going to suggest that perhaps Shifting the focus back to the issue of selecting the site whether it's gron Harvard Road or bishop and the criteria that the committee is going to use potentially to do this I know that you did a a rating exercise before and perhaps that rating exercise could be done again adding some categories one which would be estimated price which we talked about earlier which we know some work has to be done on and not for tonight but price would be an added category um accessibility I I can't remember because I don't have it in in front of me but I think sort of the two next key steps is I think one is to begin to develop and shape the the price issue because that definitely is a key piece and then but also the shift back to sort of the site specific qualities that the committee is going to look at that makes one site um optimal over the other not that all of this other information isn't important and all of these other details aren't important but I think the first step stepping back is okay of these two sites which one all things being equal if they can which one is optimal and why and then of course the other piece that we've talked about earlier which we will start is is is the price piece and the funding piece and so forth so I think that's sort of sort of a next big step for the the committee is is the criteria as to which site you're going to to ultimately recommend thank you thanks for that Robert so we have our we have uh and I'll stop this sharing I'll see if I can find it the the list of criteria that we used initially uh and we've talked a little bit you we' talked a little bit about that but do people feel like they have a preference is there more information we've talked about needing a cost estimate is there other information besides a cost estimate that individual members of the committee would need in order to let's say at our next meeting rate and make a selection what are the other pieces we need so and I this was raised earlier and it kind of you know I've been absentmindedly not returned to it but the is the issue of so potential solar or solar panels on the roof are the extent to which um that would appeal to certain green members broader community that the building is climate friendly and solar efficient and all the rest of it is that something we want to is that part of the conversation in terms of the design of the building or not or well the last three centers everybody would like that done that we designed them for solar nobody's acted on it because the funding was not there in fact in long metal we designed the whole gymnasium roof to be a solar roof we structured it for that it's been now 5 years four years I nobody's moved on it it was a good sales point but you should understand that we go our centers and it's part of the cost of this I think I've talked about this in the past it's um your greatest cost for the building is not building it but operating it so when we do these buildings we use closed cell foam it's uh we use zip R panels we get an R40 wall and r60 roof and and um we use the stretch energy code which has just been upgraded by the state and we use ervs which is the energy um er energy reduction ventilation I won't go through the whole story again but solar is always an option there's a flat section on this roof your best bet if you do solar is not located on the building but located elsewhere in the site um not sure how the good thing John you just said when you build this build we don't think about on Capital plan we talk about all the time you want to put an addition on okay your arm your which her budget is going to have to get increase now okay so what's that going to cost okay so the building has to reflect what the costs are going to be to run this building every single year heat electricity forever and you know it's going to get and by the way we always say 30 years build years from now that should be one of the things when we get started building we you know what's gonna well we designed the structure to allow for solar solar is getting much better 10 years ago it was a chunk it really was your panels left last 15 years by the time you paid for it you have to replace the panels the other deal too is that solar is daylight so a lot of these the best way to get it worth right is you buy the the Tesla type battery packs I have a son whose whole house is solar with Tesla battery packs and he only drives electric cars and he pays for it by charging them and selling it to the grid but this building we should always anticipate that we could put solar on it and we could that should be said to the town too that this building is set up to accept solar the technology is changing but right now a model y that you would have bought 10 you know 5 years ago is a completely different car today because technology so what we need to do is be prepared for it and then let the town know that when the time's right and the funding is available we can mitigate our carbon footprint and our overall operation cost that's fine what we need to do here and Robert just told us that we need we have a timeline we have a timeline right here yeah and we need to pick a site between this eight of us and nine of us here pick a site that we all agree upon whether it's the assessive ility whether it's utility cost whatever we need to pick a site so we can move on to the next Avenue and we can talk about making a patio bigger whatever we want I think we're we're way ahead of our game Robert just said that we're way ahead of the game we haven't bit s yet we need to finalize we have two sites we need to all come to conclusion well I picked a site but I'm not saying what it is so I I agree with you so I think you know I need to know the price like I need to know how big the difference will be in the price that will be part of the decision for me what else it won't be the only factor in the decision there's 12 other factors that we're rating in but for me I I will need to know what the difference and prices can everybody else offer if they have all the information they need right now or if there's something else because that's what our next work item should be if we're missing pieces for everyone to make a decision how do we get those I'm wondering if we need to do any kind of due diligence on the transfer station and how it could possibly impact um Broughton harbit maybe I'm way off on that I'm just saying you brought that up earlier we have we conduct monitoring twice a year out there for landfill gas and for groundwater and there is uh zero landfill gas and the gas outside of the capped landfill so the landfill it was old trash landfill um it's been capped and we monitor it twice year um the groundwater is I have all the data on it from all that which I could show you I mean I don't see it being an issue for the site um Dan felt that my Dan went went over to the site said I don't see how I think people in their mind yeah you know when I was a kid we we we filled pits with garbage and it smelled terrible we we don't do that anymore now the other issue I want to mention about what you brought up to is that right now both buildings being equal same size the differential right now in cost is about 1.1 million I think it's more yeah because of utilities yeah I you know I'm guessing the utility number you were kicking around was yeah and 1.4 something like that something like that 1.4 and utilities for the outer sight is probably 200 250 in fact I'd be surprised as that Mar we've done a lot of connections it's in our budget you know we would budget I'm not sure how we do Bishop Road does that relative in terms of dealing with the storm water runoff and the systemns underneath the I'm not sure whether we' have sister whether we we could very well have what we can handle design yeah we could easily have a retaining Bond it's just and and by the way all retaining ponds and systems all have overflow somewhere yeah and in this case here we know where we overflow it not sure if we did a pond we still would have to look at how the pond FL somewhere um so we know there's a utilities differential so without getting into the details the answer to your question is somebody wants an estimate we cannot give you an estimate Bishop it's impossible there's nobody can give us an estimate for the utilities well he already did rough no he's trying to give us an estimate but he did the best he could I guess but that you want to use those numbers we use them yeah you g got from yeah what other what other pieces of information do each Committee Member need in order to rate and cast a vote for a site I I would just say that I don't you know the the this the little rating survey thing is really inadequate to the the the the process because you know you have all all of these different things that are are given same weight but obviously you know they don't they don't deserve the same weight you know bringing you in utilities from you know a long distance weighs a lot more than that's how you rate it you give it a very bad number yeah but what she saying is individually the actual category C should be one to 20 instead of one to 10 or one some get we point some more so then let me rephrase in order to cast your vote for which you would you would want is anyone missing any information aside from the cost estimate so that we can come up with tasks for the next meeting I think we we still gotta go to spool committee and you gotta factor that in as well you know that hurdle with what field six could have turned into another one of those issues so commit and and the and we'll get some sense of that next week yep right that the school committee support but also a sense from the school committee I guess or the school district about ongoing support in the in the that is you know our three years from now is that relationship going to be fraught because we seek to expand or they want to expand and you're kind of running into each other so you know the size of the the size of the land that the we ire or not or how that that is if it is in fact rotten Harvard Road the long-term relationship we will be married to for I a better word the school district for I don't think that's accurate I think we would as part of the next step if that was the Avenue we went you would we' want to make sure that the survey for the parcel included an expansion area that was as recommended by by John so that the school committee could give their support for that whole package not this and then maybe later maybe it would be parceling out making a parcel to include that I I would add one thing to that I'm sorry me I would add one thing to it we've been doing these centers now for probably since 1987 so and I've probably have done 25 that were built almost all were designed to have expansion only one has ever expanded was D and they expanded exactly the way you should but that's the only one that's ever and the reason why is because once you get the funding and you get it built and it's really nice and everybody's enjoying it it's with all the other things that come up in the towns we never seem to be able to convince somebody to let us put in you know after a $10 million expense or whatever it's going to cost I don't know what it's going to cost but U um I I really think that we should always plan for expansion because in 30 years I'm not here and I don't know what's going to happen and it could happen but the only one that's ever expanded was duckberry the luxberry so so Dave Ken and Jim other I haven't heard from you guys is there anything else you guys need in order to cast a vote no no okay all right so it sounds like cost estimate will come from you John yeah right the question about energy and solar was answered they're all built to be that way the transportation due diligence there a term I wanted to get into joh know it is the building is solar ready solar ready solar ready there you go that's nice I'm going to say that right here thank and then Ellen your your question was about transfer station due diligence and then so Dan would you be willing to write something that establishes that there is a process yeah I can Prov just databased on what we have right so that would information yeah yeah that'd be great I can understand people are concerned about that but I I spend a lot I have two properties that I take trash from and I go to the transfer stations you guys must go to oh yeah it's really not a problem it's not a problem I've never I mean you you know you walk into that transfer station you you throw your stuff in the in the trash area and and it and and it's it's not it's not a problem when you when you're even right there so you know well I think the fact that it's up above and emptying into uh Washington Street is a lot different from when it's right across the street and you're going out on G Harvard Road so I don't think it would be as much of an issue so so there's an answer for it either way a data that's fine a databased factual answer for how it's monitored and where it's going so I think that would answer that it's not an unknown I guess it's a known um so in turn so cost estimate would be a next step that would come from John school committee support would be something we'll have more understanding of next after next Wednesday it won't be resolved but we'll have more understanding of that so in terms of our next meeting then it obviously needs to be after after that does it seem reasonable that at our next meeting if we have those two pieces of information that we would be able to select a site I think we need to SK the site yeah yeah I don't think it's a we a need okay you're exactly right because I think we really can't start scheduling um item number five on our agenda was public input sessions I really don't think we can do a lot of public input sessions we can do the homework to sort of tee them up but I don't think we can start doing them until we have a cost estimate and one site we can tell them that we had two sites and how we arrived at one um but again it is our as um Robert reminded us it is our job as the committee to make a recommendation for one so in terms of a next meeting um I did I did preliminarily ask both the um police and fire chief because I know that was the next step once a site is selected um if they were available we've been meeting kind of every other Wednesday they are both available on the 28th if we wanted to have if we wanted to try and Tackle both of those things in one meeting if not we can delay them till the following meeting but um okay not we're gonna pick we're gon to talk about finalized site that night yep and then meet them and get their inut from them too that I mean that is probably doable if we if we don't go into we talk about the floor plan as it relates to Public Safety but we're selecting the site and then showing them that does that seem overly ambitious or does that seem no doable and if they have any problems with it it would be good to know right away well I mean I I guess they would have to be prepared to assess both sites um you know what what you know when they come here to talk to us we hadn't right yes I can I can prep them on both of them um they've actually both seen earlier versions of the floor plan when they're here for senior C I'm sorry Ken I couldn't hear you they not going to like Bishop Road there's no water you can't put a fire system we have to put the water in before they def fight a p and say it's okay yeah either that you have about a 20,000 gallon tank basement could but I think they going have's the water stop on Bishop um it's proba the railroad tracks so from from there to the cost this what would it cost to run water sprinkle system right yeah it be yeah oh by law was up, I have the estimate why you why you put those together for a milon yeah half a million really is that on top of the electric right but that's part of the that's that's part of our our understanding that the utility that Bishop Road will in fact be more expensive and that to get water and electricity and to do the septic system at Bishop Road is going to be like 1.4 and it's like 225 yeah whatever I have in estimate Utilities in the basic building estimate so you you would assume that we have whatever it takes to bring utilities off from a standard Street let's say like like Washington Street okay that's in that budget because that's the budget that we have for all of our projects the all they give an idea of wilham we had to run the town had to bring in a sewer system they they paid for that that was no small effort I think the town separately funded that with different funds was about 1.3 million and then it got close to our building but we're still have to go as far as going to Washington Street to connect to that and um and then the water was the same way we had a 6 inch line I think it was May maybe it was eight for that building um so right now all things considered both buildings being the same size with the same issues that we want to deal with we have roughly about a $1.5 million difference so that's the premium you pay for Bishop Road it doesn't mean you shouldn't decide Bishop Ro right maybe make the building smaller I don't know in order to accommodate that I can't do that decision I think some of that for me would depend on the modeling that that does see is there a mental threshold of one number versus another number for the average taxpayer or something like that so um all right so in terms of our next meeting before we go to I haven't forgotten about public input but before we go for our next meeting does the 28th is that a reasonable period of time for you to have a cost estimate ahead of yeah I'm already working on it you know you know it's not it's not my typical I do a a fairly large breakdown m I don't we don't do the kind of cost esate we do for construction documents that's 60 pages of stuff right what we do is we take the numbers we get a a rule of thumb number that these buildings are being built for right now and then we add up um if we think the construction will start in the spring if it if it all gets approved we put in an escalation number and my cost estimator will give me that number in the past it's been as high as 8 or 9% % for like 6 months now I think it's running much lower if you follow inflation it might be running 2% 2 and a half% but I have to find out where construction is um and uh we'll put that in there and then if it's delays beyond that sure just but will you be able to get that number to me in enough time that I could when's your next meeting well I I was just saying if we met on the 28th would it be reasonable for you to have it oh yeah um Robert how much time do you think Barbara would need before if we wanted to do meet again on the 28th when would she need a cost estimate in order to begin to do some of those preliminary scenarios I can yeah I can check with her tomorrow Katie she moves pretty quick so I don't want to speak for her but I think um we could have something for your next meeting at least the initial overview and discussion okay okay great yeah so so I'll put together AC C gives you to you within about four or five days and then and then you're going to and then then you you get it to Robert and his team okay and thank you and and I I'm going to be as honest I can with the cost estimate I mean I'm not going to try and make it less we need a real number it's going to be a really real number including sof now I can tell you right now in the end our soft costs are sometimes ends up a little less and what do soft costs include just to for they include um the UNL Among Us geotechnical architectural and Engineering fees um um publishing you know for bids um any legal we usually have some legal costs in there and one thing we and Robert and his team will give us that we usually also add in um uh financing so any kind of number that might be related to a bond um and then there's Insurance um builders's risk we usually put it on the contractor but it towns have different attitudes about that um we we'll hear back from lert on that but I think um uh it's it's a hotspot of and then I also carry a contingency on new construction on a raw site we carry 7 and a half% and I think I mentioned earlier that we often don't use more than maybe at the worst 2% but you never know what you know a good example one site I was not involved in this but they somehow missed all The Boulders that were a foot underneath the ground and it was a $2 million upch charge for the boulders on the public safety site yeah we we that's why we before we get into this we do come in with our Geotech di we drill yeah we go down 20 feet or refusal you might had refusal earlier yeah but but um those are all the numbers that come into that and I'll break that out for you too so one of the things and Robert one of the things that um has come up in the past is I I know for John the networking it infrastructure within the building is not included as part of the design work that he does it's in soft um but we will need I'm sorry so we'll need to kind of I think look at how we W to kind of do the network within the building and integrated into the broader town or not or or how all that's going to play out so just through the chair very quickly and I had mentioned this to Katie uh Dennis that um the IT director and the facilities director are available and would like to meet with the the committee at the appropriate time um to talk about both of those that both have um some experience and expertise um in that so I think that that's another on sort of Katie's list whether that's the next meeting or not I defer to the committee but they are aware and look forward to meeting about the it component and the facilities uh component thing is just we have a budget item for it right it's way too to figure that out yeah we carry a budget but it'll be nice to hear from them and also I'd like to avoid what happened in wilam uh the OPM hired the it guys an outside contractor and um it was like $60,000 and they they wanted to they put like in a small room six speakers 2 by two speakers we we don't need that and but they did it without talking to us and and I tried to explain to them that if you want a PA system there's lots of ways of doing it but but $60,000 for speakers with Furnishing to BU oh yeah we have an FF and in that that Sol all right wonderful so just one thing on pricing yes I'm wondering if we should separate out certain items that would be if we have money then we would you know like I'm willing to say the kosare I mean the ptico whatever um if you want to keep that as a if we have money it would cost this much or I don't know about the overhang on the roof or whatever other things people might want to so for this first round cost estimate for this cost estimate that you're going to do for our next meeting will it include those we're going to add a square footage for that walkway Okay so not 100% it'll probably be 60% or 50% so we're going to take that 6t walkway around the building and added that into your square footage will go above this and then it's about $7 800 S foot so we'll carry that as a separate item okay so those add alternate and if we do it with columns it'll be more expensive than if you did a without colum okay and and I agree with you I think without columns is kind of an so but I guess I was just clarifying that that will be delineated in the cost okay all right great great wonderful so does before we go to public comment does the 28th at 6 PM that Wednesday work for everybody yeah what day is that the August 28th that would be two weeks from today anyone have a okay all right so I think that brings us to um public input is there any public input if there is um no public then I we have a motion to adjourn oh sorry um are you confident that we would only have to make minor tweaks with the uh Washington stre from here would we we took it we asked you confirm to take a look at the two pieces up the street I think we all agree we're not going to do that we're going to concentrate on this they did not work well my question when we look at this site is it is there a possibility even to move the building over here and you know well we going to look that in the future like final construction you're right on it at chees Bly study we're trying to get a ballpark where we are okay final design U when my civil engineer comes in he's very anal retentive and he will I try and guide him a little bit but he really is and and we will talk about handicap access up to the fields and also maybe a stair or a bridge um this was a mistake I I'll get that fixed to you inste it to but I really like where is here I like where it is on Bishop Street I think they're both the right place on those sites and is there room on these sites yeah there room on both of them but I can tell you my experience is let's plan for expansion good luck if you ever see it happening because it just doesn't good F you you the answer is 10 years from now like in Belmont hey we just built you a new ther what do you mean you know our school's 50 years old or whatever you know they it's it's the same our and town meetings are really exciting and I think that's yeah just a great reinforcement for the importance of building it correctly correctly first time oh yeah you know um the the one thing about these centers is the multi-purpose room really needs to be a fixed element that's really hard to expand expanding on more function rooms and things like that in terms of classrooms and things that's all a r possibility but but if the kitchen and the multi-purpose room and service entrance are they tend to be pretty fixed it's all St and by the way although we'll get into this in we get to a construction drawing I'm pricing this as a steel building not a wood frame we've had lots of problems movement and safety and flam ability and steal is the right way to go now I will shut up I have to go home to anyone want to make a motion to adjourn motion to ajour Second all in favor y wonderful good J Jour at 801