Oh, you guys are closing out. Okay. I'm calling to order the regular meeting of May 5th, 2026 of the Township of Bernard's Planning Board. All rise for the flag salute.
Pledgian to the flag of the United States of America and to the stands. One nation under God, indivisible, >> justice for all. >> This is the open public meeting
statement for 2026. In accordance with the requirements of the open public meetings law of 1975, notice of this meeting of the planning board of the township of Bernards was posted on the bulletin board in the reception hall of the municipal building, Kolier Lane,
Basking Ridge, New Jersey, was sent to the Bernardville News, Whippony, New Jersey to the Courier News, Bridgewwater, New Jersey on January 21st, 2026. was electronically mailed to all those people who have requested individual notice and was posted on the
official township website. The f following procedure has been adopted by the Bernards Township Planning Board. There will be no new cases heard after 10 p.m. and no new witnesses or testimony will be heard after 10:30 p.m. May I have a roll call, Miss Slayman?
>> Chairwoman Mrangelo >> present. >> Mr. Agarwal >> here. >> Miss Bannon >> here. >> Mr. Mr. Crane >> here. >> Mr. Eorio >> here. >> Miss Manduk, >> Miss Smith >> here, >> Mr. Suburvy >> here. >> Mr. Tommpkins
>> here. >> Mr. Drill >> here. >> Miss Fee >> here. >> Mr. Shreger >> here. >> Mr. Schly >> here. >> And for the record, Miss Layman is present. Madam Chair, you have a quorum and may proceed. >> Thank you. I have been notified by Mr. Seville that he plans to attend tonight.
May it will be a few minutes late. And may I have a motion to excuse Mr. Schaefer from tonight's meeting. He had uh previously let us know he would be out of the country. >> That motion. Chair. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Crane. Thank you for the second, Miss Smith. Roll call, please.
For all >> here >> Mr. Crane. >> Yes. >> Yes. Miss Muk, >> Miss Smith, >> yes. >> Mr. Suburvy, >> Mr. Tomkins, >> yes. >> Chairwoman, Mr. Angelo,
>> yes. >> Thank you. >> Next item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from the regular session, April 20, April, sorry, 7th, 2026. Uh, the only person that I have that's ineligible to vote is Miss Smith. Um,
these minutes were previously distributed to members of the board. Do I have any edits, suggestions, or comments? >> None. >> Madam Chair, I'm just going to abstain because I recuse myself. >> Oh, correct. Thank you. >> So, you're going to recuse, not abstain
from the minute. >> Yes. >> Um, I have a motion to approve the minutes as drafted. >> Second. >> Uh, Mr. Tommpkins, is that you as the primary and Miss Bannon Harris for the
secondary? I have a roll call. >> Mr. Argawal, >> Miss Bannon, Mr. Eorio, >> yes. >> Miss Manduk, >> Mr. Suburvy, >> yes. >> Mr. Tomkins, >> yes. >> Chairwoman, Mr. Angelo, >> yes. Pass.
>> Uh, the next item on the agenda is the modification of condition and extension of time. Octa Pharmaceuticals Inc. Block 2401, lot 4, 170 Mount Airy Road, PB23- 001A. Do we have a representative here from
Octa? >> Good evening, Madam Chair. Luke Pontier of the law firm, Dave Pittney here this evening on behalf of Octa Pharmaceutical. >> You'll have to sit down for the mic to pick you up and excuse me, Madam Chair. Push the mic real close to you. Talk directly into it. >> Is this
>> Yeah, we have a directional mic. Um, so for anyone that's testifying today, get as close as you can and speak clearly. >> Thank you. So, we are here this evening seeking a modification of condition seven of a resolution uh for Octa Pharmaceuticals.
Octa had obtained preliminary and final major site plan approval pursuant to a resolution that was dated April 16th, 2024. That resolution contained condition seven which put certain time limitations on uh with within which the applicant had to act. One of those
condition one of those items within condition seven is that they had to apply for and obtain a construction permit by a certain time and then once the construction permit was obtained they had one year to obtain their permanent certificate of occupancy. Um while the period for the applicant to
obtain a construction permit actually extended through April of this year, they got through resolution compliance quickly and they pulled their construction permit back on July 16th, 2024. So they they did that quickly and then based on how the condition is
drafted, they had one year from that date to pull a permanent certificate of occupancy. Um so they they did not complete the work and file for a certificate of occupancy within that one-year time frame. They do have a temporary certificate of occupancy and
the all of the improvements are entirely complete at this point. Um, all of the conditions of the resolution have been satisfied. Like I said, they do have a TCO. Um, but they just and they they literally have their application for the permanent CO ready to go. They just it
won't be accepted by the township because they're past that date. >> You need an extension in order to get the CO. >> Correct. So, we are seeking a a slight extension uh from now through September 1st of 2026. Um, like I said, we we do have everything ready to go, but just to
give us a little bit of of grace period. So, let's get I think we only need two people to be sworn in, your client's representative and Mr. Schlide, because the the two of them would have personal knowledge of anything that could come up. So, can you identify yourself for the record?
>> John McDonald from the RARI group. >> Okay. And is that an MC or an MAC? >> MAC. >> Okay. And Mr. Schlike, can both of you raise your right hands? And do you both swear or affirm the testimony you're going to give in this matter? Will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> You affirm. >> Okay.
>> So, >> could you give us a little background on what the delay was? I know you gave us a memo, but for the edification of the public, could you let us know? Um the the delay was due to some um overseas
materials that were ordered and with the tariffs um they were delayed in coming. Um it was right in the that period when ships were actually sitting offshore and their products were sitting offshore so they couldn't quite finish in time.
>> So what's your u what's your position at Octa? >> I'm the general contractor for Octa. They asked me to attend for them. >> Okay. >> Um, I would just like to put on the record if anyone on the board has visited the site, if you could let us know on any observations.
>> Has anyone visited the site? Raise your hand. >> Hey, Mr. Igerwall. >> Yeah, this is just observations. >> Um, no particular thing. I read all these things now. I didn't see different from what was listed in that
>> Mr. Crane. >> Yes, I uh visited the site February 5th of 2024 before the application of 24 and also visit the site April 22nd of this year. I observed the outside and I came
inside the building. The office manager was kind enough to show me the inside and the second floor. Um, what I uh >> Okay, so you did a site visit before the board >> 20 24 >> 2024. Then you did a site visit April
22nd, >> correct? >> 2020. Okay, I get it. Okay. Um the things I noticed that got changed is um they've put in a uh new fire system, sprinkler system, fire department
connection. I believe the old building did not have a sprinkler system. They put in six new EV charging stations on the south side of building. Uh they've marked all the handicapped and walkways on the pavement. Um,
they've eliminated the at least I didn't see they eliminate the exterior elevator and the walkway on the first floor. I did not see that. My understanding that they moved the elevator on the inside, but maybe the contractor can confirm
that tonight. Um, uh, they they've eliminated some of the AC units on the south side of the building. I did notice on both the 2004 and 2026 there's a courtyard connecting the buildings. The surveyor in 2024 said
they couldn't access that area, but when you uh uh when I walked through with the office manager, you could see the there's a walkways in the courtyard. There's about six benches, uh three lights, and two fountains that aren't on the plan. that they're not on the plan
because the surveyor couldn't access the area to to put it on a plan. >> Yes. I also so uh just one hydrant for the whole site and that hydrant was very sunk and in the the bottom of the nozzle
was probably only about 4 in off the ground. Also, there's four cables crossing the driveway on the uh south side of the building that are very low. Approximately, it looks like approximately about 10 ft to 14 ft in height.
>> What kind of cables were these? >> They were communication cables, not power cables. I I also me saw that uh the stop signs going out to Mount Airy was an old stop sign only about 18 inches, not a reflective standard uh stop sign that
you would have. And there was also a stop sign on 150 Mount Airy Road. That driveway that accesses the B Common Boulevard was missing. I think that's about all I can observe.
>> Does anyone else want to add anything? >> So, Mr. Macdonald, do you want to um speak now about some of the things that Mr. Crane has brought up or >> let's Mr. Schlly the things that Mr.
Crane brought up were any of these subject to the 2024 approval. >> Those things weren't addressed. They >> got a microphone >> resolution. >> They're not in the resolution at all. I
don't recall any discussion. It's a big property and the the site plan involved as you may recall. >> Yeah, it was a very limited application only to modify specific areas of the property. >> Yeah. What? So the the resolution is
captioned from the f the first page. This is application number PB-23-00001. a resolution memorializing grant of preliminary and final site plan approval, C1 variances, and an exception from site plan requirements to allow the construction of a building addition,
loading area, and related site improvements. So, ba based on your observations, are you suggesting or looking for anything or um contending that those are related to the
Yeah. the the request to modify condition number seven to extend the time by which they can get to CO. >> No, I I would just make a recommendations. I don't know if you want to hear the testimony before the recommendations or now. >> Well, I mean our position is that these are are unrelated to the issue at hand
and and the request before the board. Um you know, I think >> when you say testimony, I think that testified what the delay was. He explained why they want the modification. Unless there's more questions, quite frankly, I don't think there's anything more for them to
testify to. So, it's they're asking for something, tell them, let's get the response. I I would like to see an as built of outside of the complex. Um, there was things wrong on the plan. The the uh generator is marked as the
transformer. There's the transformer is not marked. The courtyard obviously isn't isn't on the plans. Uh, as I mentioned before, the AC's are moving are are removed. There's other things by the uh the fenced in area where the
generator is, other ACs. Um, just just mainly for safety issues. If anybody had to go to the plan in case of the catastrophe, they could pull a set of plans and see what's actually there. >> Mr. SH, do you have a position on that?
>> I really don't. >> I mean, my understanding is that that's not one of the prerequisites to obtaining a permanent CEO in in town. >> Actually, that's a good question. What do they have what does AKA have to do to get their permanent CO?
As far as the site plan goes and the engineering and and uh department and the zoning uh department, they just need to complete the work site plan and address all the planning board conditions of approval. nothing beyond
completing the work in accordance with inspectors will review that and uh any little field changes or somethingctor would get you know that was I don't know that there were any but uh
as survey required unless something to be off and not in compliance and the government really needed and has built to confirm with the site
>> have jurisdiction for this Mr. Drew and have the means to impose >> if there was going to be an asbuilt condition. It should have been in my opinion should have been imposed in this resolution. >> Uh July of 20
>> July 15, pardon me. July six July hold on for a second. >> 16 written down 2020. >> July 16, 2024 24. My question is
>> yes, that's what he said. >> It can be brought after the fact. >> It was brought February 26, 2025. Way before >> 2025. >> No, that's question >> prior to the
>> Hold on for a second. Hold on. February 26, 2026, not 20. >> Yes. >> Does anyone have any other comments? >> Does anyone on the the board have any? Mr. Ukraine's request
is that I assume you want a condition imposed condition on the extension that they submit an asbuilt to reflect what's in that courtyard which the surveyor said
was inaccessible in 2024 and to show the other conditions that you mentioned that you saw when you're on the site. Is that correct? >> That's right. And just to emphasize the the the site plan has changed. The elevator's not in the exterior and there's not a walkway on the second
floor >> on the first floor, I should say, connecting the >> two story building. >> Did did the >> Okay. >> Did this 2024 approval have anything to do with the elevator? >> Well, the addition was for an elevator. Yeah.
>> And they they scrapped the addition portion of it and just went ahead with the loading area portion of it because on the inside of the building. >> I do remember some testimony. Were >> the walkways included on the >> There was a second floor to the elevator
addition because the elevator was being built on a one-story portion of the building. So, it needed a second floor to go up to and then it went in both opposite directions to the twotory portion. >> All right. So, the basic >> hold on. I I think we have an open
question here. No, >> I think the board should be pulled stled. >> Go ahead. I just I want I just need guidance on >> if
>> if the board believes that that information provided to the board prior to the 2024 approval and it wasn't in my opinion extension. If the board believes that
that information would not relevant approval. Then my answer is comes down to whether or not that information should provided in 2024. Not whether or not not the fact that the
2024 resolution didn't require again what the board had before it must have felt that you don't need an asbelter. >> Right. Right. But according to what I'm hearing from Mr. Crane, but there's a couple departures from the
2024 plan that was presented, but there was a note saying that surveyor didn't have access to this courtyard and that's why there was nothing shown in the courtyard. access to it in 2024 presumably would have been that's a a board
>> back in 2024. >> Well, he could have if he had access if they had >> point out he didn't have access. >> Well, so that's what the board >> All right. That was my legal advice. If you if the board believes that it would have wanted to see that information in
2024 before granting this approval, then what was the asbill condition? Now, if the board says, you know what, we wouldn't have cared about that information because that wasn't um it didn't pertain or relate to the now
application. Then don't >> have an objection. I mean, the applicant would prefer to keep it to the subject of the application, which is the limited improvements essentially, the the interior elevator and and the loading space. I mean, that the courtyard,
correct me if I'm wrong, the courtyard was not >> corrected by the application. >> That's correct. As to the courtyard, right? But Mr. Crane also noted some he says changes >> fire system uh handicapped things that changed since his he must keep notes. So
he compared his notes from 2024 to when he just went out there >> when I believe Mr. Schly had said that the engineering and zoning departments before issuing the permanent CO will compare to make sure that the project was constructed. >> The problem is they're going to compare to see what's out there is what's shown
on the plan. And on the plan it's going to say the surveyor didn't see anything in the courtyard. And quite frankly I don't think whoever is going to be reviewing this for the CEO is going to have the Hawkeyes that Mr. crank out. >> But on the courtyard, I guess I'm
struggling to see how that if you don't know what was there versus what's there now. What is the benefit of >> Well, aside from the courtyard, there's a number of other items. So, let's not get hung up on the courtyard. I'd like to take the temperature of the board. Um, an informal straw poll on how
>> I have I have a a question, a point of procedure. If in 2024 the surveyor said um made no observation about the courtyard because he didn't have access to the courtyard at that point. Was it
incumbent on the board to say okay we need access to that to make an informed decision? Um or uh was that to be glossed over? I'm just wondering if the board's responsibility. >> If the board felt that they wanted to
see what was in the courtyard, then they should have asked. But if that that's the answer. >> So by not asking, they've tasted approval. >> Well, >> on that >> the burden is always on the applicant.
The burden is never on the board. >> Okay. So I'm going to for those of you that are newer to the board, it's an informal check in on where you stand on this issue. Okay. >> So, I'm actually
>> um No worries. So, Mr. Tommpkins, would you >> this a straw poll impose the condition of an asbuilt or not? Yes, imposed. No, don't. >> Yes. >> Say that again. >> Yes. >> The straw poll. Yes. Impose the asbuilt
condition or no, do not impose the as condition. M. >> Popkins. Yes. Miss Smith. >> Yes. Am I? No. Um I am a yes because um it's not just the courtyard. I see a number of items that Mr. Mr. Crane has brought forth and
particularly that impacts safety which for me is very important. So Mr. Crane >> yes >> yes also for the purpose of safety. >> Yes. >> Before I answer I have one one question
like if we have to send the surveyor how much time and effort is required to assess this thing? >> Ask them. Well, the contractor is not going to know, but presumably I don't know how busy the surveyor is, but all you got to do is, you know, go
out to the courtyard. I mean, again, I don't know his schedule, but it would be inconceivable to me that it could take more than half a day to survey the courtyard. The only >> I think that's part of the question because I I hear the chair saying that it's not just the courtyard. What would the scope be? >> Well, you need to show the the on the
site plan the new fire system, the six new EV stations, the mark the handicap spots, um, show that you eliminated the >> let's say a day, two days at most. But again, the issue is not how long it's going to take the surveyor to actually do the survey. It's when can the
surveyor get out there. So maybe you give them when does your temporary when does your TCO run out? Generally it's Dave do you know when this the TCO runs? >> Generally it's six months right? >> Yeah but they can get multiples TC.
>> So maybe the answer is ask for something beyond September 1 2026. >> I thought we had um last time talked about extending to January 16 2027. >> Right. We did. >> So >> it's a very slow industry survey. So are
you comfortable extending to Jan J? >> He's not going to care. >> The initial ask was I believe through January after we understood that the application was ready to be submitted. We tailored it back but we wouldn't object to a longer period of time. >> I just want to circle back to Mr.
Agarwal. Can you put your vote on your thought on the record? >> Yeah. No, and I would say yes as well and and I saw many of these things Mr. Crane saw over there, but I was not aware of the previous one. So, so that is why I think it is important that we
do it this way. >> Okay. So, now um do I need to have a motion? >> Yeah. So, does someone want to make a motion? >> Mr. Crane, would you like to make that motion >> to modify condition 7 to extend the time to get the CO to January 16, 2027
subject to the addition of a condition that they have to submit an asbuilt to show what's in the courtyard and the changes that have been made to the site. >> Mr. Dill pointed out I agree. >> So moved. >> So moved. >> Do I have a second?
>> Second, >> Mr. Tomkins. Second and roll call. Miss Slayman, >> Argawal, >> yes. >> Bannon, >> yes. >> Mr. Crane, >> yes. >> Mr. Yorio, >> yes. >> Miss Manuk,
>> yeah. If you want to grant them the extension, it comes with the condition. >> Miss Smith? >> Yes. >> Mr. Spurvy? >> Mr. Tommpkins? >> Yes. >> Chairwoman, Mr. Angelo? >> Yes. >> Hey, thank you. >> Thank you, board. Appreciate your time.
>> Thank you. Okay, the next item on the agenda is public hearing which is continued from our hearing on April 7th, 2026. Therefore, no notice was needed. Correct. >> Correct.
>> Um this is Ridge Oak Management Inc. block 1611 lot 40 block 169 lot 2201 95 and 150 Manchester Drive. preliminary and final site plan planning uh PB26
hyphen 001. Um before we start today I did ask the same question of the last at the last hearing if anyone had visited the site >> preliminary before that I think someone has to recuse.
>> All right Mr. Crane >> yes I'm going to recuse myself. >> Okay Mr. Crane is leaving the deis and is recused. Thank you. Now we ask you a question. >> Yes. Thank you. Um so at the last hearing a few of us put on the record
that we had um visited the site in the interim between April 7th and today has anyone visited the site and would like to put their observations on the record. >> One here visited the site raise your hand. >> Okay.
>> One three. Okay. So we're going to get some observations. >> Mr. Agarwal, why don't you kick it off? >> Yeah. So um I visited last week actually middle of the week um during the daytime I believe on uh 29th
and one of the uh things like first of all the property is really very well maintained. So that I was pretty happy to see. Uh the one one thing that I wanted to uh uh again make sure everything is good is
like um last hearing I heard like there is like there not much need for a lot of cars over there. What I observed was there were lot of cars in the parking lot. So
um I to it was a bit surprising to me because I heard last uh during the last hearing that um a lot of residents don't have cars over there. So but there were many and so and again like one
observation like I I think like what we were talking about last time um extending the sidewalk. I definitely want to see um how the um access to the dumpsters and all those things because
uh I see a lot of cars there and the pedestrians uh coming parking on the other side and going inside the building. I want to make sure they they have a safe access back to the building. So those are a couple of key things
>> which other than what we already have discussed last time. I think they were quite relevant but these two were like something that I definitely want to see on the when we go. >> Hey uh Mr. Eora did you have your hand up?
>> I I um gave my testimony last time of what I saw. You want me to >> No no any uh Mr. Suburb Miss Bandick you're fine. >> Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Um, you know,
>> so you went at night. >> I went right after. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Observations were that the but I did notice areas of um I'll call them gaps where it was darker in certain
areas than others. That was my specific uh point of the trip. >> Okay. Mr. Suburbby, did you have your hand up? >> I did. I did. Um so, as I mentioned at our previous meeting, I've been there many passed by it many times. Um I I did go there. I didn't see you as Mand
at the same time after our last meeting at night with the specific lighting was >> I'm sorry with the specific intention of seeing how the lighting was. What what I did observe was that you can see um from the street. So there on from Manchester,
right, you can see in front of the the the site, you can see light coming from the homes that are like sort of in the culde-sac on East Lewis Street. So presumably the light will also for this development will reflect back there to those residents in addition to the home
that is at the end of that block right on Manchester, the block of uh it's I think it's Manchester and and Prospect AB which is the home there that's you know on that corner. Um, so which I I think just makes makes the lighting issue even more, right? I mean, I know we've talked a lot about it, but even
more of a of a concern. Um, so, uh, but other than that, you know, it was the same as previously. Miss Smith, I just want to say for the record, you've reviewed the tape from the last uh you watched the testimony uh of the last meeting though you weren't here and you
signed an affidavit uh test attesting to that you reviewed the >> prior hearing >> and I notorized it >> and you've notoriized it, Mr. Drill. Okay. So, do you have an observation? Uh >> my observations are consistent with what the board has said. I don't have any. >> Do you went at night also?
>> I've gone at night and during the day. and Mr. Tomkins now. Okay. Um I will now turn it over to Ridge Oak. >> Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the board. Luke Pontier of the law firm Dave Pittney here this evening on behalf
of Ridge Oak Management. Uh we're talking about the property as as you know that is 95 and 150 Manchester Drive and that's designated as block 1611 lot 40 and block 16009 lot 22.01. Uh we're here this evening for a
continuation of the public hearing that began back on April 7th regarding an application for preliminary and final site plan approval along with one variance and exception relief to develop the property with an affordable housing project consisting of 29 age restricted
independent living units along with parking, storm water management, walking paths, landscaping and other related site improvements. As you heard through testimony at our initial hearing, uh the property's existing driveway connecting to Manchester Drive will be eliminated
and access to this site will be provided through a driveway uh through the adjacent 150 Manchester Drive because of the modification to allow for that extended access drive. Uh there is also some slight modifications proposed to the parking and circulation layout at
150 Manchester. Um but there is no overall loss in the number of parking spaces and otherwise the property at 150 Manchester will remain as it is today. Um as a reminder this project is included in the township's fourth round housing element and fair share plan. And
in furtherance of that plan the township adopted ordinance number 2573 back on April 15, 2025 which among other things created the SH4 senior housing zone for this property that we're talking about tonight. and the
application that's being presented is consistent with the terms of that ordinance. As part of the application, as I mentioned, the applicant does seek a few exceptions from the provisions of the township code along with one variance. As part of its initial application, the applicant had requested
an exception related to the spacing of lighting fixtures in the parking lot where one fixture every 60 ft is required. As part of the revised lighting plan, which was submitted in advance as an exhibit, and which you'll hear more about from our engineer this evening, the applicant now complies with
the requirement to have one fixture at least every 60 ft. And so, an exception is no longer required for that item. You'll also hear about the reduction in average foot candles that we were able to achieve after hearing your comments at the initial hearing. And again, that will be presented by our our engineer
this evening. >> Do you still need an exception from that? >> We we will still need an exception. uh with respect to average foot candles. Um whereas we were proposing 1.6 average foot candles both within vehicular roadways and sidewalks as part of our
initial application, we were able to reduce that. So we are now requesting an exception to permit an average of.7 foot candles within vehicular roadways and an average of 0.9 foot candles in sidewalk areas.
>> You still need an exception, but it's a much lesser exception. That's correct. 7 is in the >> roadway.9 in the sidewalks. >> Terms of our presentation this evening with me and next to me is Bonnie Kelly,
a representative of the applicant, and she's here to provide information to all of you based on your your questions and feedback at the initial hearing regarding the project and and operations of not only this specific aspect of the community, but the community as a whole. We also have Gary Dean, our traffic
engineer, and he'll provide testimony on the traffic report that was submitted. We'll then have Rob Michello, our project engineer, who testified at the first hearing. He'll return and he'll present that updated lighting plan. And then we'll have our architect, Mary Johannes, return to present an exhibit that depicts the gazebo with some
additional details, uh, as well as the mailbox clusters and and some building number signage on top of the the entrance way. Um unless there's any additional preliminary items >> you want to mark. I know that the exhibits have been pre-marked by the
board secretary and put up on the um website. So do you want to do you have them to hand out? >> Well, I believe that we have provided 16 copies in advance. >> So can you just go through the exhibit markings right now? >> So then when these are referred to,
people know which exhibits to look at. >> The ones I have aren't marked. So, I'll defer to to you and the board secretary on on the actual markings. I believe we're at A7 for >> So going to ask our board secretary
have so the existing lighting existing lighting exhibit which was just submitted like the other day and then we have A1, A2 and A4. So meaning Architectural's first and second
floor plans is A1. Building elevations is sheet A2 and gazebo and front porch are sheet A4. So can you tell us which is we have A7, A8, A 8, A9 and A10
exhibit wise? What is So tell me exhibit A7 is what? >> A1 is exhibit A7. A1, which is the first and second floor plans, is exhibit A7. Let me just mark that on
mine. And that would mean that exhibit A8 is sheet A, which are the building elevations. Correct. Correct. Right. Mark it on mine. That would mean exhibit A9 is sheet A4,
the gibo and front porch. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Mark that also on mine. which leaves exhibit A10 would be the existing lighting exhibit. Correct. >> That's also correct. >> All right. And I So, uh, Mr. Drill, I
think you had said that the existing lighting exhibit we submitted a couple days ago. That was actually with the initial package which depicts the existing lighting on the adjacent property. >> Uh, more recently, we submitted a revised proposed lighting plan.
>> That was hard to read though. Hold on for a second. But Chad, I do not have a hard copy of >> do not have a hard copy are with us. >> Just so you understand the existing lighting exhibit was dated April 22. That was the that was the initial one in
the >> No, this is for the >> when I So we submitted exhibits in two sets. The first set included the existing lighting plan that you're speaking about now and the the updated architectural exhibits that we just just
reviewed. More recently, we submitted an updated lighting plan for the proposed project. I just need to know existing lighting exhibit which is dated April 22, 202. >> That's A10. >> That's A10.
>> Yes. A1 is an exhibit that the board members don't have. Does someone have a paper copy? >> Did you have hard copies? Yes. >> Oh, hello. >> You bring them up. >> And electronic copies were sent to the board professor. Very hard to read. >> Start right down there.
>> Lighting plans are always You got to get your magnifying glass out. >> Yes. So again, exhibit A1 is a document that's being handed out right now. It says lighting exhibit
and it's dated April 7, but it has a last revised date in the upper right hand corner of either May 4 or May 5. I can't read it. >> May five.
>> May five. It's today. Okay. kind of see whether I still got it. >> I don't. >> Okay, with that, I think we're in a position to follow along with all the testimony. >> Great. And now that you have all of those in
front of you, this witness will not really be testifying about those exhibits, but we'll get to them. >> Right. I understand. I just wanted to get it out of the way. Understood. >> Uh, so, Miss Kelly, I don't believe you've been sworn in yet. >> Yes, she has. Yes, I was. >> Very good. >> Not only was she sworn in, I believe she
testified also. >> Oh, you did not. Okay. Well, you She was definitely sworn in. She's a director of >> housing and development. >> He's a lay witness, not an expert, so you don't have to qualify. >> That's correct. and you already just
went through the first two parts of my questioning, so we can skip those. Uh, Miss Kelly, can you please provide the the board with a brief overview of of Ridge Oak and the Ridge Oak development that's progressed over the past decade or so? >> Certainly. Um, the original Rididge Oak
facility was founded in 1976. The six Christian churches in Basking Ridge sponsored our development. Sponsorship is and remains a supportive function. The churches provide no
funding to our community. They make no policy or operational decisions. Each church recommends one of their congregation members to sit on the board. Some are with us this evening. This provides us with strong local roots
and full support of our mission to provide the highest quality affordable housing to elderly people in need. We are a private nonprofit organization. The original campus is made up of 248
apartments. 247 are rent subsidized. The first tenants moved into Ridge Oak in December of 1977. Ridge Oak 2 located at 35 Lindberg Lane
opened in April of 2005. It has 40 apartments. 39 are rent subsidized. Rich Oak 3 opened in January of 2013. It has 20 apartments. All are rent
subsidized. >> Thank you. And and so you obviously have many residents that that live within the community. Can you please describe the the typical resident if there is one? >> Certainly. There are 362 residents that are on our campus now.
41% of those residents either lived in Bernard's Township or have families that live in the Bernard's area. >> What percentage? >> 41. >> 41%. 71% of our residents are women. The
average age of our residents is 79. The average income is $22,569 a year. It is important for me to emphasize this evening that Ridge Oak Senior Housing is at its core a rental
housing community for seniors. We are committed to supporting our residents aging in place. However, we are not an assisted living facility or a nursing facility. We are very focused on building a sense of
community fairness to all residents as well as operational and maintenance consistency across all of our housing facilities. This will include Ridge Oak 4. >> Tell the board about the the waiting
list process. Are there people that are are waiting to get in? We have 598 names on the waiting list. 331 of those are unduplicated applicants. >> How many? >> 331.
What that means is that you may be on the Ridge Oak waiting list, Madame Chairwoman, and you may also be on the Ridge Oak 2 and Ridge Oak 3 waiting list, but we're counting you once when we say you're on duplicated. Does that make sense?
So again, we have three properties. We have three waiting lists. 598 names are on those three waiting lists. >> Okay. >> You're saying 331 are only on a waiting list for one of the buildings? >> No, >> they're on the waiting list for all.
>> They may be on one, they may be on two, they may be on three, >> but 2 and change are >> 331 are what? >> Unduplicated individuals. In other words, they don't they're they're only counted
once. If they're on more than one list, let me back up a little. If they're on more than one list, we're counting them one time. So, basically, you net 331 people, individuals on the three lists combined. Does that help? >> The ones So, the other ones are just not
on any >> they're dupes. >> So, the the other 267 are people that are on more than one >> more than one list. Correct. the second or third name of that person. So if if Jonathan Drill is on a list, >> he's one of the 331 people. But if he
also signed up for Ridge Oak 2 or Ridge Oak 3, he would maybe be included in the 598. But that original 331 >> I had it backwards. I apologize backwards. >> I have a little bit of a cold, so you'll >> That's okay. So the way you explained it was erroneous.
>> 331 people are only on a list for one of the There are 331 individuals that are on the list. Is that correct? >> That's correct. >> Over and above that, some of those individuals are on more than one list. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Okay.
>> The point is that you have over 300 people currently waiting to live at Ridge Oak Senior Housing. 29% of those waiting reside in Bernard's or have family that live in the Bernards area. The average age of our applicants
is 74. A typical applicant is moving is moving to RJO to get out of an apartment that they can no longer afford, to get out of a house that is too difficult or expensive to maintain andor
to be closer to their children. We're finding many people retire, move down south for whatever reason and some are actually moving back to the area to be close to family. >> So it's clear that there's a demand
here. Is that what you know trigger for wanting to have the the phase 4 project? Yeah, the the Ridge Oak 4 29 one-bedroom apartments proposed for construction will enable us to help people on the
waiting list and will assist Bernards in meeting its fourth round affordable housing obligation. Bridge oak 2 and three were also part of the township's affordable housing plans rounds two and three respectively. Our
units are 100% affordable and all are for seniors. >> Not to go back, 267 people are on the wait, pardon, 331 people are on the waiting list. 267 are on multiple lists. You're counting number of people of
apartments for >> one unit counting them as two individuals >> one applicant it's an applicant okay correct >> okay so as I understood it is incorrect >> correct Yes.
>> Uh and and not to get ahead of ourselves here, but if this project is to be approved, do you have an anticipated construction timeline? >> Um provided we're successful um in obtaining the uh planning board approval, we'll apply for construction
permits in the summer >> summer of this year, 2026. And we want to have a shovel in the ground by December of 2026. Our project will take 12 months to construct. So, we hope we can be fully
rented by the end of the first quarter of 2028. >> Very good. And now that the board has kind of a foundational understanding of of who the applicant is and how you operate, you heard at the first hearing that there were a few questions.
>> Just uh curious about like what how do you um put people in the waiting list? Is there a specific criteria which and when you uh once you this uh these 29 apartments will be built is there like preference or a criteria how people will
get those? >> That's a that's really an excellent question. Um once the building is close to being finished what we do is we announce the availability of applications to be placed on the waiting
list for an apartment. The individuals that apply must be age and income eligible at the time of application. We open the waiting list to applicants for a specific time period. In other
words, we may say from January 1st to March 31st, we'll accept applications. Then we close the application time period. All of the names go into a lottery. It's a lot >> and they are drawn randomly and that
determines your place on the waiting list. It does not automatically guarantee you an apartment because when your name comes up on the waiting list for an available apartment, you need to come in and visit with us. It takes a
few hours and you need to go through your income and age verification process. And that is a that is a involved process. >> Already have people on a wait list for other apartments. >> That's correct. >> Are those and can they transfer? Can
they apply? They can apply also for >> Yes, they can. If the people who are currently waiting when we get ready to accept applications, we will let those people know that we're accepting applications. They can submit an application for Rich Oak 4.
There is no preference given to anyone. You have to be age and income eligible at the time of application. The head of household must be 62 or older. >> Question. >> Answer your question.
>> Yeah, it did. Uh I I was also curious and uh ma'am my apologies for not understanding the process completely but is there a preference given to the township resident versus outsiders who you said some >> excellent question there is no
preference given to Bernard's township reference there can't be or you wouldn't have gotten credits towards your fourth round affordable housing option >> right >> the exercising of a preference let me just say to you The exercising of a
preference has to be approved in advance by the federal government. You can't just say, "I'm going to give preference to this group of people or that group of people or people who live in this town or that town because this is really about fairness." Okay? This is about
leveling the playing field so everybody has an equal opportunity. >> Hopkins, >> um, two questions. Uh who finances the construction the initial construction >> of Ridge Oak 4? >> Yeah. >> Um Ridge Oak 4 initially will be
financed by the Ridge Oak board. Um we will put up the money to begin construction. Um at the toward the end of construction, actually in 2027, we plan to apply for federal home loan
bank funding. Um, we also hope that we will be able to apply for affordable housing trust fund money from the New Jersey Department of Community Affairs and we will also seek a HUD mortgage so that we can make ourselves whole at the
back end. >> And does the initial investment when you say it comes from the board, is that from um funds that you have uh currently? Yes, they're from Rich Oak Assets
>> and um just playing devil's advocate, you get into this and HUD says no or there's a stumbling block somewhere along the way. Um one, what's the likelihood of that? And two, if that does happen, what's the game plan?
>> Those are two very good questions. If I had a crystal ball, I would be able to answer them for you. We're in a very challenging time when it comes to financing these projects. We are in the
process of talking with the people in the federal government, meeting with them actively, talking with our legislators about getting the project built, but also making sure that we'll be able to get
the rent subsidy to support the people who will live in the building. Okay. If we cannot get the rent subsidy, the Ridge Oak Bo, we will let me back up and say we will look at the possibility of
fronting subsidy for a period of time, but that is not something that we want to do on a long-term basis because it will be very very expensive. And my other question is what is the
average um occupancy of a resident >> in terms of number of years? >> Yeah, >> I would say 3 to five. >> Okay, >> that would be my guess. Years ago when people moved in um when the buildings
were first opened in 1977, the folks moving in were 65. >> Right. >> Okay. Now they're older. Um, but they're very active sitting behind me. >> I see that unruly mob back there.
>> That's right. They're they're these people are very much go- goes. That's for sure. >> Okay. Thank you very much. >> I have a follow-up question to >> One second, Mr. Agaral. Mr. Curvy has the the floor. >> Um, so I just had a question. What? Two
questions. Um, my first is what is the uh what is the average wait time for you mentioned there being a pretty lengthy list. So, how long how long are tip folks typically on the list before they actually get a get a >> It depends on where they are on the list
and how many units turn over in a year. In in theory, you know, we when we do our budgets and our planning, we anticipate somewhere between between 10 and 20% of our units will turn over in the year. So
maybe we'll have 30 to 40 units that turn over in the year. And what happens is if you're next up on the waiting list, Mr. Sei, we would call you and say it's your turn. Would you like to come in and see what we have available and go
through the income verification process and you say yes or no? And if you say no, you're off the list. You don't get a second shot. It's one and done. We find many we prepare people. In other words, if their name is coming up on the
waiting list, we're calling them in advance to let them know that their name is coming up. They need to collect all their bank statements and social security information, etc., etc., so that when they come in, they're ready. And sometimes we'll get a feel from
people at that point as to whether they think they're really going to bite the bullet and do it. It's a big change for people. They might have made other plans in the >> That's correct. That's correct. >> I just my second question was just more more procedural question. Just you mentioned you mentioned you'd lose the
affordable housing, right? If there was any kind of preference. >> So she's what the witness is talking about is federal government. I'm not I'm talking about New Jersey state the rules for you would not the township would not have gotten credits for the units unless
they're given out on a lottery basis with no preferences. >> No preference whatsoever. Military preference veterans preference which apply to other things doesn't apply to this. >> Correct. >> Okay. That that was my question. Now >> you're a vet. >> Some municipalities have veterans
housing. In other words, low veterans affordable housing which is only open to veterans. There's and and there's special needs housing only open to people with special needs. But unless
it fits into one of those categories that the whole development is that way, there's no preference for these units or they wouldn't have gotten credit for them towards the township's fourth round affordable housing obligation.
>> Correct. Thanks for clarifying. >> Any other questions at that end right now? No. >> Um got a quick one. >> Yes. >> Beyond the um obviously it's subsidized. Um beyond that, is there any other fees that the residents have to take care of themselves? Is there an HOA fee on top of that or utilities? They would pay
their own utilities. How does >> Residents pay for electricity? We pay everything else. Um they pay 30% of their income to rent. The federal government makes up the balance. We cover natural gas, water, sewer, payment
in lie of tax, everything else. You're welcome. >> Uh Mr. Agual. >> Yeah. So I was having a follow-up question. Um uh from you defined the construction plans and the we want to
have uh people coming in by of 2028. Um and then you mentioned about the financing aspect of it. uh in your ridge oak two and three, did you go through the similar process? And >> um in Ridge Oak 2 and three, we received
um federal section 202 funding. It was a capital advance for the construction of the buildings and we also received rent subsidy to support the ongoing operation of the of the projects. from the timing
perspective like what what you have put out in the plans which you are sharing with us like shovel and the the ground and then construction through next year. Um you confident you will get all the
money that you need by for the construction in the timely fashion? >> I'm working on it as hard as I can. It's a very very difficult time when it comes to financing these projects and securing rent subsidy.
The board of trustees of Ridge Oak is committed to this project. They are committed to their obligation and their mission to serve people in need and that's why we're pressing forward. like it takes I have some experience uh
for a project and it does a lot of time. >> Yes, when we when we first started on this project in 2022, just for your information, we did apply at that point. The federal government still had what they call section 202 capital advance
funding. And we did apply and we were denied. And one of the primary reasons we were denied was because we did not have site control. Um, and we did not have planning board approval. If the section 202 were
available now, we would be sitting pretty going into the federal government. >> But it's is it available anymore? >> No, I won't make any other comments on that question. Thank you, >> Miss Kelly. I I assume you have some more testimony or Yes.
>> Okay. Go ahead. So, uh, returning back to some of the operational questions that arose during the first hearing, one of the the main items that we heard about a few times was the the refuge and recycling and how that will work at at the site. >> Touch on that for the board.
>> Sure. Operational m operational and maintenance consistency across our projects for us to operate efficiently and effectively is paramount. For example, all resident trash and
recycling is taken outside to the dumpster enclosures. Residents do this on their own or they have family and neighbors that help them. For some, this is their daily excursion outside,
which they will often combine with a visit to the office or they'll they will relax on one of the lovely 44 benches we have on the property. For a few others, >> record everyone's shaking their head in that side of the audience.
>> I can feel it. I can feel the mojo. for a few others that cannot get out. We have special needs students from Ridge High School that come to take resident trash and recycling to the dumpster for
them twice a week. Currently, seven out of our 362 residents take advantage of this service. Bridge Oak 4 residents will be asked to take their own trash outside and we or
their neighbors will help if they need it. Helping one another really makes Rejo a special community. >> Thank you. And and there were some questions as well and and we heard a little bit earlier this evening about the number of parking spaces on site and
the the flow of traffic. Can you please provide some current data on the parking? Sure. Parking and traffic are always are always top on the list. I certainly understand that. I'll leave the traffic part to our expert. What I
can tell you is that most of our residents, they're probably already shaking their head. Mr. Drill, between drive between the hours of 9:30 in the morning and 2:00 in the afternoon, >> they shaking their head. >> Could you repeat that? What times?
Between 9:30 in the morning and two o'clock in the afternoon, residents tend to drive at times when school buses are off the road and when people are at work. They are not well known as speed demons.
We go to great lengths to remind staff, residents, and visitors of the speed limit around our neighborhood and have frequently asked our wonderful police department to up their speed control efforts to keep our community in the
neighborhood safe. I have literally told Alex Mcnite that if he has to write a ticket for a 78-year-old person to please be my guest. our Manchester Drive property. On the Manchester Drive property, we have 167
numbered parking spaces that can be assigned. 145 are assigned. Visitors park along the curb or they park at the front of our community building. On our Lindberg Lane property, we have
25 numbered spaces that can be assigned. 22 are assigned. The balance are used by visitors. 49% of all Ridge Oak households have at least one car.
So if we apply the same logic to Ridge Oak 4, if Ridge if 50% of Ridge Oak 4 households have at least one car, this will require that we have minimum of 15
numbered parking spaces to assign. We are planning for 39 parking spaces >> and you have room for um occupational therapists, physical therapists, people who come to visit for uh medical needs
etc. Currently, um, anyone who visits, um, physical therapist, occupational, what, whoever visits can park along the curb on our Manchester Drive property in
front of our community building and on our other property on Lindberg Lane. They are welcome to park in an unnumbered parking space, >> Manchester Drive. I thought one side was no parking. No, >> no. The
entrance to Ridge Oak is on Manchester in Manchester. That street is double wide. >> Yes. >> We our residents don't park that on that strip of the street. Right. >> Okay. >> Visitors will park inside the Rididge
complex along the curb. At the front of the property, they can park on both sides. >> Okay. at the back of the property where it goes around. Yes. >> It can only park on one side. >> Okay. >> Parking that you just described
>> in Rio 4 or Okay. So, in the proposed Rio 4 parking scheme. >> No, I'm sorry, but I don't really understand the question. Try try again. >> Described that there was some visitor Well, approximately how many spots would you say there are available for those
individuals? I >> think this you're mixing apples and oranges. Try try it this way. On Ridge Oak 4, you said if 50% of the households in Ridge Oak 44
had one car, you would need 15 spaces. Correct. >> But you're proposing 39, >> correct? >> So 39 minus 15 is >> I I have a cold. 24 >> 24 >> 24.
>> So would those would those 24 spaces be available for visitors? >> Yes. >> Yes. And just to to close the circle as well that the staff on site, where would they typically park? >> All sta office staff um and resident um
services are provided in our community building which is Felmouth Hall which is the at the center of the Manchester Drive complex. The staff report to Felmouth Hall and park at that building. So your testimony is staff would not use
any of the 39 parking spaces for Route 04. Correct. >> Correct. >> Obviously visitors for the adjacent current existing ridge could use and >> Yes. Yeah. And that does >> like an overflow. >> Yeah. Sure.
>> You know, family members will come and they can't get maybe a spot along the curb by their loved ones apartment. They'll park in front of the community building and walk. It's a lovely property to walk. >> Oh, I I agree. Yes, I have.
>> Yeah, you can get all your steps in. >> I guess out of those 24 additional parking, there are some EV spaces like one is a provision. >> Yes, I think there's one EV station that will be included in the >> that was testified to one EV station.
>> I think that's required. We don't have anybody with an Navy car right now >> likely in the new. >> Yes. Yes. >> I have one other question. Is there a van for transport with Ridge Oak? I think I've seen one, right?
>> Yes, we have a it's a 18 passenger bus. Um but that bus is used. It is Ridge Oak's bus. Ridge Oak driver. It's for Ridge Oak residents. It's primarily for grocery shopping
>> and library I think right or >> yeah outings but close by we don't use that bus I think our parameter is 30 miles I want to say you know we have a circle we will use that bus if someone needs a ride to a doctor's appointment
we will use the bus to take them to the doctor's appointment but it strictly for our residents and it is parked on the current oak drive property and will certainly be available to the rejo.
>> So, Miss Kelly, circling back to to the phase 4. Um, you had heard some questions and our engineer provided testimony about delivery and movein operations, but I think questions on that. Can you just touch on on how deliveries and and move in, move out?
>> Yep. As discussed in our hearing on April 7th, most residents that move into Ridge Oak do so incrementally. Most have a family member that will help with a pickup truck or a small box truck
which will pull up to the front of the building or joke for and unload and then park. Over the years, we have found that front door moveins are not a problem. People
are not moving into Ridge Oak 4 with a house full of furniture. These apartments are very modest in size, 666 square ft. So, usually you see them coming in with a, you know, a bedroom set, maybe a small dining table, couch,
television, etc. If they have too much stuff, it's going to be a problem. Um, but we do find people pair down quite a bit when they move into our units. >> Anywhere for residents?
>> No, we have no additional storage for residents. Delivery of Amazon boxes and mail will also happen at the front of the building. Day-to-day maintenance and operational supplies are always
delivered to our community building at the center of the campus or to the maintenance barn >> to confirm the the deliveries that would happen to this building resident specific delivery not be a joke.
>> Correct. And you have a mailbox on your new site plan that you think of us. Where is that going to be located? the the multi-unit mailbox, >> right? The mailboxes that we're showing you are 16 box cluster boxes that are on
a stand and they will be at the front of the building. And there will be we've added a bench there so people can sit and go through their mail and talk about the coupons or whatever. >> Our architect will present that that exhibit for
where those mailboxes will be located and the the postmaster has approved that location. >> Yes, the postmaster has approved the boxes and has approved the location. Thank you. >> But addressing another question that arose at the first hearing was with
respect to having a single elevator in the building based on your experience operating the prior aspects and of ridge with having one elevator. >> I do not. The ridge oak 4 building will be elevator equipped. We will have one
elevator in the building as we do in three other buildings on our campus. We have a maintenance agreement for our for our elevators. And in my 25 years of working at Ridge Oak, we had one intermittent outage over
a 2 to three day period. This was a total anomaly. The elevator contractor was fired. Our current contractor knows we are a senior facility and responds to us quickly and we pay for that level of
service. Our elevators are inspected annually by their contractor and once a year by the state of New Jersey. They are well-maintained and in today's world when the contractor comes they simply
hook up a computer to assess what is deficient so that they can replace parts as they're starting to fail. That's what we're seeing these vendors do. Residents in the f and their families are made
aware that we have one elevator that is this is not a concern that is normally raised by them. Some actually prefer a second floor unit and they like getting their steps in using the stairs. There's one lady sitting behind me who I asked
if she wanted to move down to a first floor unit and she smearily told me to move along. Some prefer the second floor unit. If a move to a firstf flooror unit is requested and is needed as a reasonable
accommodation due to disability that is handled by Ridge Oak management. I don't recall this ever happening in the 25 years that I've been at Rididge Oak or in any of our elevator equipped buildings. >> Are the elevators do they have generator
backup when the once in a thousand year storm comes every five years now? Um, >> very good question. Yes, this elevator will have generator backup. >> Okay, >> can you please describe security for the site? Security cameras, access to the
building and >> for security, we have cameras that now have cameras that are installed outside and inside and will be inside the Ridge Oak floor building. Um, access to the building for visitors
will be via a front door vestibule intercom. So, in other words, there'll be two sets of doors. The first set of doors will open. You will walk into a vestigule. You'll press the intercom and the resident will need to provide you
with access. >> I just I apologize, but that second set of doors then will be locked. >> That's correct. That's correct. This is very similar to what we have at Rejoke 2 and Rejoke 3. >> I assume that's where your packages will come as well. >> Yes.
>> Into the vest. >> Yes. Apartment doors will be equipped with wireless door locks that will be activated with a key fob for ease of use. The building will have wifi that will be accessible in common areas and
inside apartments as approved by the local postmaster. US mail will be delivered outside the building to kiosk type mail stations. Does that also um
area? >> Yes, we have um Genitech cameras on our property with license plate recognition and also speed detection. >> You have license plate readers? >> Yes.
>> Police department was very happy when they saw that. >> How long is the is it I think it's 30 to 60 days. I think it depends on the the LPR cameras, the license screen recognition cameras have
a a different um uh different time frame for saving data than the other cameras do. But they're extremely helpful and they are very easy to see, you know, very visually very
helpful to us. >> And the key fobs uh generator backup. >> Yes, this is new for Ridge Oak. Um actually um currently the executive director Corey Havanic who's sitting behind me is
working with um vendors to replace front doors and also put keyless door locks everywhere. The advantage is that we will be able to see who's coming and going. Um, if the resident is concerned
about maybe a family member visiting who they don't want to visit or they think someone stole something, we'll be able to download that information to see who's been using key fobs. >> I don't have any additional questions for you on direct. Is there anything
else you'd like to add? Now before we before I conclude, I really want to thank the planning board and the professional staff their review of our application. Um I I would certainly like to thank the RJO staff, Corey Havlanic, our executive
director and the RITO board of trustees and most importantly the residents we serve. They are and will remain our inspiration for Ridge Oak 4. We really appreciate this opportunity to come before the board. Thank you.
>> I I want to ask the board before I move on to the public for questions if anyone has any residual questions right now. Does any of the uh board professionals have any questions or clarifications?
None. Okay. I'm going to open up the uh portion of this hearing to public for questions only. This is a question of Miss Kelly. If you have a question, you can come to the front podium, state your name and your address for the record.
>> Prospect Avenue. >> You repeat that. I'm sorry. >> Libby West, 35 Prospect, which puts me on the pro corner of Prospect in Manchester. Um, but I haven't I know they handed out the new lighting and that's really was my biggest concern.
Um, because literally I will be looking at this building. >> Hey, do you have a question? >> Yes, I do. So, I wanted to know why there's still an application for needing enhanced lighting. >> Hey, I'm I'm going to stop you there for a minute because this witness has not
testified to the lighting. >> I thought they submitted this. >> Well, hold up. Who's going to be testifying about the lighting? >> We will have our engineer return and he's gonna officially present that exhibited with your >> So, it was submitted to the board in advance of this evening, but we will have a witness that specific.
>> I just wanted to get him pre-marked just to roll things in with that with your witness here. >> The engineer is going to be testifying >> and I'm I'm not meaning to cut you off, but I want him to testify first and then you can reserve your question for the right witness. Okay.
>> Yeah. Because the question is why? >> Okay. Do you have any questions of Miss Kelly from her testimony? >> No, it's only what >> Okay. >> Redirect on what she had talked about is what you're saying. >> It's going to be your question on lighting will be. >> No. >> Right. >> For the
>> No, no, no. I'm saying for right now, the only questions I can ask are redirect on what has already been testified. >> Yes. Yes. >> Correct. >> Thank you. Anyone else like to come up and qu have a question of Miss Kelly in her testimony.
>> Stein 172 Riverside Drive. >> We went way too fast. >> Todd Adlestein 172 Riverside. >> Mr. Edstein. Go ahead. >> Brown. Um what's your
part of your um parking lot will be pvious um surface? What is your plan for um having that surface cleaned? >> That'll also be a question for our engineer. >> Okay. >> We had talked about at the first hearing, but he can he can address that when he's up.
>> Any other questions? >> Anyone else like to Yes. Come on up. question. Ray Stites, 34 Prospect Avenue. >> Could you pronounce >> spell that last name? >> Stiti TZ. >> Ei TZ. And what was your address?
>> Or Prospect Avenue. >> 34 Prospect Avenue. Go ahead. >> I don't have a question, but I I just want to make a point that >> Okay, this is this >> I might have a question on the light. Okay, let me just make a like let me just add just give everyone a little bit of background here. The way we
procedurally advance this hearing is we ask questions of the witness at the end of the hearing. If you have a comment, you will be able to make comments. >> I will swear you in for comments after they finish all their witnesses. >> This portion is a limited portion. Okay.
>> Anyone else have a question of Miss Kelly and her testimony? Okay, come back up. Okay, wait till you come up. This is Miss West, Libby West, 35 Prospect Avenue. A question for Miss Kelly.
>> You mentioned the 39 parking spots, right? So, when you put those together, the the plan was that 15 would be for residents. What was the original thought for the extra 24? the based on current uh resident car
usage, we anticipate that 50% of the residents in the building will have a car. >> Wants to know why you're proposing 39 if you're projecting 15. Is the answer that's what the ordinance requires? >> Yes, that's what the ordinance
>> the ordinance requires them. So that the thought this is just what hap do you think that there will be any parking then in front of the building on the road there? >> No. >> And when you said that the the earlier
discussion was how the vehicles were leaving. Can you explain that they go out through the current property? Is that >> Yes. When you come over the when you come in Manchester Drive and you go over the speed hump as if you're entering
Ridge Oak, you would turn left into the first parking area and you will cross over to Ridge Oak 4. >> Go through the first parking lot. Yes. >> And go like that. >> Yeah. You're going to turn left and the building will be there. >> So, just for clarification,
>> they show it on your lighting plan there. The ingress and egress to the new Ridge Oak 4 is going to be through the parking lot. The driveway is being eliminated from the prior uh house.
>> That's correct. >> The record will reflect there's a private conversation going on. >> Oh, sorry. I was asking No, it's okay. No, no, no. I was asking if they're losing parking spots that exist there. >> We just wanted to be shown. >> I was giving I was >> Yeah. orienting Miss West. I I know the
the property while I walk through there almost every day. So, I was just curious as to the parking >> spots there and how that was exiting. >> And >> I don't know who this is a question for, so I apologize if it's the wrong one. >> Okay, we'll let you know. for during construction.
Are they opening the back access or will the construction be >> Why don't you reserve that for the in >> Well, do you know, Miss Kelly? >> I don't know that I can answer that. My my >> Well, then don't answer it. >> That's fine. I didn't know.
>> We'll wait for the engineer. >> That's fine. That's an engineer question for construction. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> We have someone else coming up. >> Don't know. You just say you don't know. >> Ed Girtz. >> Can you spell your last name? >> G E R DTS
60 Manchester. >> Spell that last name again. >> G E R D as in David, T as in Tom, S is in Sam. >> And what was the address? >> 60 Manchester. >> Thank you. So you mentioned the funding and that there was going to be initial funding by
Ridge Oak and then you're relying on additional funding. What's the val How much does this cost? How much is the original funding that you have secured and how much are you relying on? What percentages? >> The we're our construction cost estimate is $ 8.5 million.
Um the we are prepared to put forward $ 8.5 million and we will after construction or during construction we will apply for federal home loan bank funding which can be up
to 2.5 million. We will apply for a HUDbacked secured mortgage that can be anywhere from 2 million to 6 million. and we would like to apply for affordable housing trust fund money from the state department of community
affairs, but that funding announcement has not been made yet. So, we don't know what the limit will be on the funding. >> So, you have the money to do the whole job right now. >> Correct. >> And then you're looking to get
reimbursed potentially, is it? >> Yes. >> And as I understood it, you're also looking for subsidies for the rent. >> Correct. We're looking for rent subsidy to for the for the town >> offset some of the rent and that's above and beyond eight and a half. >> That's correct.
>> And when is construction plan to start? >> We hope that we'll have a shovel in the ground in December of 2026. >> 2026 >> start in this this >> in seven months. >> All right. It's the only question I have
for >> Okay. Thank you. We have any other questions from the public of Miss Kelly? Okay, seeing none, I'm going to close the public portion for this witness. Uh, would you like to call your next witness? >> Will at this time, we'll call Gary Dean,
our traffic engineer. >> Mr. Dean has been sworn. You just need to get him qualified. >> Absolutely. Mr. Dean, can you please provide the board with your name and the name of your firm and then describe your education, experience, qualifications, and lensures, please? >> Certainly. Uh Gary Dean, de professional
address is 181 West High Street in Somerville. I am the principal of Dolan and Dean Consulting Engineers and we are civil engineering consulting firm that specializes in traffic engineering and municipal consulting for traffic related matters. I'm a graduate of Lehigh
University with a bach bachelor of science degree in civil engineering. Um and a former member of the faculty of Lehigh University in Lafayette College teaching transportation engineering. I've been a licensed professional engineer in this state for 40 years. And
in that capacity, I've appeared routinely before this board starting with six or so. Uh, and more recently Fellowship Village, but other notable projects such as the Somerset Hills
YMCA, Millington Baptist Church, just just to name. >> When you testified before this board, the board has accepted you as an expert in traffic engineering. Correct. Just again for background, I've been representing Ridge Oak for the past 24
years uh when they first appeared before this board of your predecessors in roughly 2002 uh for Ridge Oak 3. >> Questions for the board, >> but members of the public, anyone have any questions on his qualifications?
>> None. You accept him as a an engineer? >> I continue to accept him as an >> Thank you, Madam Chair. Board members, >> uh Mr. Dean, did your office prepare the traffic impact assessment that was provided and prepared for this application? >> Correct. And for identification, it's
dated January 13, 20. >> Take the board through your findings, including any traffic flow anticipated. Certainly as Miss Kelly indicated uh Ridgeok was anticipating that this project we would have been advanced
several years ago and to that extent our firm was first retained in uh 2023 to first measure traffic associated with Ridge Oak and the reason we did that is given that the characteristics of the
proposed housing would be identical to the existing housing logically whatever we found in terms of traffic and parking characteristics would be similar if not identical for the proposed 29 unit. >> And when you're going through the report, can you just tell us what page
you're on and what figures and all that if you're going to mention any so we can follow along? >> Okay. >> So, as we get into the report, we first I uh take an inventory of the existing roadways serving the site. Uh, as you've
heard, Manchester Drive will be the primary will be the only means of regular vehicular rest and egress to Ridge Oak 4. Um, the posted speed limit is 25 miles per hour. There is sidewalk
on one side of the road near the site and the road is 36 feet wide and on street parking is not prohibited. Heard and will hear through my testimony. We are not relying on the
width of Manchester Drive to serve parking either for residents or their visitor guests. However, it's allowed. So, we I'd be remiss not to acknowledge it. Um, that's on page three, Mr. Drill, where we go through the inventory of of
the various roads, including Prospect Avenue, South Maple Avenue, and the like. Um, starting in April 4th of 2023, and I've moved to page four, we placed a traffic counter on Chester Drive and we
did it just north of Prospect so that every car coming over that counter, we knew left that out for roughly two and a half months. So often times whether it's the
public or sometimes board member they they criticize traffic engineers this day. Well, we do so on a representative day. We do so when schools are in sessionable um and and it's you know we're not into
the influence of holidays but we were out there for two and a half months. So I I know that uh the data that we compiled is certainly representative of the characteristics the traffic characteristics of of Ridge
Oak. We also in the middle of June of 2023 sent staff out to the individual intersections. We we performed intersection counts at rush hour at Prospect and Manchester and at
Manchester and South Maple. did that in June of 2020. Here we are three years later. And so for this application, uh we we felt it was prudent to supplement that data with new counts that we did uh just before the report
was prepared and ultimately filed. And those counts were done in early December of 2025. >> In fact, December 9, 2025. Correct. >> Correct. Tuesday. >> Same location. >> Same location. same exact locations. So
we we did so again just to have a fresh set of facts and not rely on something that not that there's been any change at Riggel but perhaps other conditions in the neighborhood may as you've heard from Miss Kelly most
residents because of their age uh and and that they're by and large retired intentionally avoid rush hour. No buses, no commuter traffic. As a result, the actual peak hour traffic associated with
ridge oak when when most people are commuting, particularly any of Butters on Prospect or Juniper or further south on Manchester or South Maple, rush hour is rush hour. It's influenced by your schools. It's by people traveling to
work. And ju just from our findings, that rush hour, if you will, from our counts, occurred in the morning between 8 and 900 a.m., full hour and a half before, as Miss Kelly indicated, most residents at Ridge Oak elect to arrive and depart. And in
the afternoon, again, rush hour, 4:45 to 5:45. During that time, the traffic coming in and out of Ridge Oak was very limited. 20 cars, 22, excuse me. And and this on
table one, page four of my report, had 22 cars coming in and 17 leaving for a total of 39. Afternoon peak hour, almost identical. 20 cars came in, residents in their
vehicles, and 21 left. So for 267 units that are served by Manchester, less than 10% arrive or depart. And I would characterize that as fairly typical
particularly for senior housing as we I'll say criteria of it being affordable availability of shuttle service. In my opinion, this is an exceptionally low traffic generator. And it gives us that
benchmark with 267 units to then say, well, if we built another 29, it's 11%. Traffic should go up 11%. And that projection of future traffic is
featured on table three in our report on page seven that shows the additional 29 units for Ridge Oak 4 would generate two cars coming in in the morning cars leaving and similarly two arriving
in the afternoon peak hour and two leaving. To put that in the context, that's one new car traveling either up or down Manchester. One new car every 15 minutes. I study traffic for living. I count
traffic. I watch traffic. I couldn't tell the difference. Two cars an hour, one direction or another. Unless someone has a machine or has time to kill and wants to spend 60 minutes staring out their window and counting, it would be very difficult to perceive it. and and I
believe that's due to the nature of the application and the specific characteristics of the housing type. Traffic engineers also assess impact and and how we go about that in terms of what we experience as drivers. We model
the intersections surrounding the site and and we through our traffic counts and through the speed limit of the road and whether there were buses or trucks or cars or pedestrians all even the width of the roads many different
features affect the operation and and traffic engineers have developed a term. I'm sure the board has heard it from either myself or other professionals. We call it level of service and and a report card, if you will, with A being
the best. And what does that mean? As a driver, when we pull up to a stop sign or if there were a traffic light in the area, we wait a very short amount of time at a and and ask >> page five, bottom of the page,
>> I show what those levels of service are in terms of whether you're at a light or a stop sign, how long you wait. That's really the assessment. And at the very bottom of the scale of a service F in this neighborhood, that would mean
you're waiting seconds or more, almost a minute, to turn. I'll get to the punch line as quickly as I can. As we looked at all of the intersections that we used in our study, technical appendix to the report, we we
show you um what the levels of service are. So I'm going to bird to figure three not pageentionated along Manchester and Prospect great levels of service level of service. A whole lot of traffic out there
make a left or right turn for residents uh or or anyone traveling on Prospect at South Maple. That's level of service C. pull a lot more traffic on south. Now C is right in the middle of the pack. It's
a passing grade and then some. So for uh a busier road such as South Maple, that is not an an unusual or problematic level of service. In fact, it's even a little better at night, mostly because people are
the way a traffic impact study works is we we create sort of a traffic sandwich. You know, our bottom layer of bread or filling is existing traffic and and that assessment I just characterized levels of service A, B, and C. We then assume
over the next, say, two years or year that it'll take to build out this project. There might be more traffic in the neighborhood. Family that moves in, maybe there's more traffic on South Maple due to other pocket developments in the community. Recognizing that Bernards is by and
large mostly built out, we assume that traffic grows annually. So that becomes the next layer of this sandwich. Then the last element of of this confection or meal is the site traffic. And we
compare is we look at future traffic with and without this expansion. And our study concludes that there will be no change in level of service. will still have abs and c's because of the low traffic attributed to ridge4.
>> Where does it say that in the report? >> On page eight, which continues over to well, page eight, analysis of future traffic volumes. >> And I'll conclude all movements at the intersections
of Manchester Drive and Prospect Avenue and South Mabel Avenue. Prospect Avenue are projected to continue to operate at favorable levels of service C or better during both peak hours. There will be no changes in
levels of service due to the minimal traffic increases of so and and I should say we did include three years of traffic growth to a 2020 extra free board. Um should there be
traffic conditions that we did. So, we've concluded again with one car every 15 minutes, some of which will use prospect, some of which will use Manchester, um that that will have no material
effect on overall traffic operations. Then, as part of our test, given that we're a permitted use that addresses, will be safe and efficient ingress and egress to the community. Third, the plans were revised to
eliminate a new driveway to Manchester, that the access will be through a continuation of the internal roadways and parking facilities within Rigido. That intersection with Manchester will function as it does today. It has clear
lines of sight. Manchester is very level uh flat if you will and has good visibility for approaching traffic. So there no change in terms of that design. Um as you've heard the new building will have 39 parking spaces. Uh which for the
29 units is a total supply of 1.34 spaces per unit. Um, and as you've heard from Miss Kelly, it requires only 0.5 lot of surplus parking almost almost one
surplus space for every unit or should I say unassigned and visitors, guests, dishwasher repair, truck, whatever it may be that is more than abundant and satisfies the ordinance requirement for the senior housing. uh
SH4 zone. So we meet that standard and and again current history at RJO provide credence that that parking uh will be more than adequate for the proposed
bus will be available well as traffic in one van. that is quite a benefit in terms of suppressing traffic as well as park. So with that uh it is our conclusion that uh there will be a minimal traffic
impact associated certainly won't unduly burden the roads surrounding the site and it is my expectation that that ridge oak will good neighbor in the community. The ultimate conclusion I assume that
there'll be safe and efficient ingress and egress to the this proposed development based on all the other testimony you gave. Correct. >> That is correct, Mr. Trump. >> Yes. >> Questions the board of this witness are traffic. >> Yes, sir. Mr.
>> So, uh, does your a question. Does your your analysis include an analysis? You mentioned South Maple, right, which is a much busier. Um does that analysis include the construction phase? Right. So you're
you're construction traffic will be coming from Route 78, you know, probably from that gen from that general area right down south Maple. Um and then either
Prospect likely down to Manchester. Rford construction >> assuming favorable approval here as part of any construction related uh activity in the township. There is a pre-construction meeting with
engineer police contractor ridge oak to identify travel routes and hours. So generally speaking that type of activity is is restricted to pre hours. Let's say the trades need are typically on site by
7 and then often times they leave at 3. They're outside of rush hours and they're outside of you know where we have activity. That is all part of that. Our study doesn't address that principally because we're looking at the
impacts once the project is built not not while it's being built. those specific routes, you know, I I'm not a construction expert. Quarry materials could come out of like say Weldon in Scotch Plains. Some traffic
may use 78, some may use 287 coming from the north and south. Um that would all be worked out principally with police. I >> I meant 287. I may have said 78, but I meant >> No worries. Uh I understood >> if if the board >> Yeah, we had talked about this in the
earlier um hearing that we were as a board I had asked that we have construction hours um >> one of the construction construction routing plan and the board could impose a condition saying that they have to submit construction routing plan with
hours for to who to review >> hours. Uh who who would that be Mr. shy that generally does that. Yeah, that's gen their construction meetings. They don't do that. But you can impose a condition saying that they have to submit it for review and
approval. But again, who I think maybe Mr. Schlly's suggestion is a good one. You do it with lighting. You have these lighting subcommittees >> can have lighting, landscaping. We could have a construction building committee. >> I think I think we should and and and I'll tell you the reason why I asked the question is just because you know there
is you know there's a lot of kids that cross the street. You know the Oak Street schools there. I think Oak Street lets out around 3:00 roughly. So so um you know there's kids and and that intersection at Henry Street and and South Maple if construction traffic is going to be coming and going right there or Oak Street in South Maple, you know,
that's that's heavy walking traffic during a certain time. So um and it's and it's often backed up because of the Verizon traffic, right? folks, employees going in horizon. So, I I do think I think that's a good >> Also, your ingress and egress is through that parking lot. I assume that's where
the construction vehicles are going through as well. >> He's not going to know, >> right? So, we'll talk to Mr. I can only guess and speculate. So, I'm loathed to do. So, >> Mr. Michello will have to address that. Okay. >> And and if Mr. Michella doesn't know,
again, that's why >> make that part of our construction routing plan committee. Okay. for example, you know, low hanging fruit that we can all >> You're hearing mostly that it's about the school and Yeah. I mean, we don't
want these big construction vehicles coming through with, you know, kids on the street and everything. And I don't think you do either. >> Okay. Um, thank you for that. Anyone else have >> anything? Yeah, I've got a lot of concerns about the construction process and the
in-n-out. um to kind of piggy back off you. I don't know if we should wait for >> I think we should wait for >> Michelle. I think he's got his Yeah. Okay. >> You're gonna have a full deck, Mr. Michelle. >> Okay. Uh anyone else down there? >> I agree with him. >> Okay. All right.
>> I Mr. Seville. And for the record, Mr. Seville joined us at 910. >> Right. So if there's a vote tonight, he's not eligible to vote tonight, but if it get carried for some reason and you listen to the recording, you can get yourself uh >> certainly eligible ask questions.
>> Right. Correct. >> So um through your testimony and thank you. Um you had shared that future traffic would be a c um >> well he didn't say or better. said it would continue at a C. >> Continue at a C. >> This thing is C or better.
>> Future without Ridge Oak is see or better. Future with Ridge Oak C or better. So >> it's not getting worse. >> Yeah. It's right. No change. >> Yeah. Yeah. So So just help me I and I think you kind of explained it, but just help me understand. So you've you've
collected a baseline of current traffic having some moderate rate traffic over the next three years off of that projection you're you're concluding better. >> Okay. So just so I'm clear on the next
three years it's 2026 27 28 >> correct >> that we're still under construction. Oh, I don't think so. For this building, I I I have to defer to the applicant, but a one-year construction for >> she had testified when you weren't here
that they projected to have the shovel on the ground December of this year and finishing by the first quarter of 28. >> No, she'd have occupancy by the first quarter of 28 was her testimony. And she testified one year construction.
>> Okay. So, so that three-year projection would account for construction, but then also occupancy accounting for increased residential use.
But then help me understand how accounting for additional traffic within that area. Sure. What what we look at is CO changed a lot in traffic and and it used to and and I'll dare say you 40
years ago when I started working in the community things were very different and and there was a lot of growth and explosion you know we'll say on the eastern end of town I mean the hills the hills was a a game changer for the community. Um you also had Kah and and
Spring Ridge and uh the Cedars. I mean, you had a lot of multifamily coming into the community. Um, we do our best to look at those communities and and look at their traffic and and account for it. But there's what's known as a background
traffic growth. For example, there's a little new development in Warren and there's some in Bridgewater and and Bedminster. And that traffic filters through the community. As traffic consultants, DOT, the county, whoever's counting cars, sometimes local
police, traffic historically has grown a percentage, 2% 3% maybe back in the 80s. In more developed communities, that has tapered off. We saw a drop in traffic during the pandemic. A noticeable drop.
Highways weren't as busy. Why? Well, people weren't going to work. But a lot of people either a retired we have an aging population and b figure it out zoom work from home and a lot of employers employers have embraced that.
So traffic has not been on its same growth. We still nevertheless in our report we look at the category of each road and we apply what DOT recommends traffic engineers do a annual growth factor and it's it's in
the report. I know Mr. Drill would like me to be very specific where we include that information and start to figure so >> figure eight in your appendixes. Nope, >> it is not it. It is on page eight under future traffic volumes.
And as we look at growth patterns specifically in Somerset County, we um do DOT has recommended a a 1.75% annual growth rate on local roads, which would be Prospect, Manchester, and the
like. And on urban minor arterials, South Maple, 1% annually. And that accounts for little pocket developments here and there, right? Somebody subdivides a lot, they put on a new house. So, we we can't
capture everything. We know the quarry, whatever goes on with it. Some of that will filter through the area. We account for that. So, that's our snapshot, a forecast, three years hence. Then, we put the final layer on
top of that, which is ridgel. Long as none of his layers of the sandwich are baloney, he'll be all right. >> Ice cream sandwich, John. It's sweet. >> All right. So, have any other questions on traffic and
the impact of Ridge Oak for Mr. Oreo? >> One more. Uh, you could calculate how many cars went through. Can you calculate speed with what you did or No, >> we did uh conduct a speed study. It it it's in our report. Um
through the evolution of this project, there was some I'll say expression of concern from nearby residents. >> Top of page five, table two. Right. >> As to
a concern of safety and speeds. Um that's an existing condition. It's unrelated to this expansion. So it's it just is um in right um we performed that speed study
in 2025 beginning uh on December 4th through December 7th. Again not this was not intended to be a comprehensive yearslong. It was let's take a snapshot and just see what's happening. We did so with um electronic equipment that is
very accurate. you know, rubber tubes are are measured out in a very predefined distance and every time a car goes over it, it's it's measured and we measured it in two locations. One was just north of Prospect, so
essentially on the Ridge Oak portion of Manchester and then on Man on Manchester but south of Juniper. So that picks up the influence of whatever traffic is on Prospect and also the traffic on Juniper as it goes out to South Maple. Table two in our report
page five shows essentially what's what's occurring. Uh I I will say traffic is slower on Manchester the closer it gets to Ridge Oak. Average speed was between 24 and 25
miles per hour. 85th percentile speed. Now, I'm gonna get super nerdy on you, but 85th percentile speed is threshold at which 85% or less is traveling at that speed
limit. And that is important because it's what's used to set speed limits. I show you the figures for each day. Friday and Sunday seem to be the higher speed days with an 85th percentile of 30.
any speed study there's outliers. We we know that there are those that travel fast and those that will travel slower. And that's why averages and this 80th percentile is important. As we move down to Juniper Way and south of that, the
average speeds were higher anywhere between 26 and 29. And that 85th percentile again marginally but slightly higher about three miles an hour faster than it was closer to Ridge Oak.
I'm not here to interpret it. I'm just here to say we looked at it. I'm pleased to say people aren't being outrageous. You know, I'm not seeing 40. >> What's the speed limit? >> 25. So, by and large, you know, with with 85th percentiles at 28, you know,
can't give it quite a gold star, but I'd say it's it's pretty good. um because it's an existing condition. It's I'll say endemic to the neighborhood whether this expansion goes other than as you've heard from Miss
Kelly, she's asked for a little horsement that that's the only thing that curtails higher speeds >> likely commercial traffic >> and >> one guess >> only other you know solution and quite
frankly and I forget who who on this board is an elected official it's a governing body issue right mayor and council have to say we have a speeding problem and ask the municipal engineer and >> multi-way stop signs or more speed humps and and things that have benefits have
consequences because >> school buses and snow plowing and emergency response >> don't always like speed humps. So it's it's a bit of a balance but as I look at these speeds too bad not not not
outrageous. So that was something we did consider out of concern for you know what came out of the various neighborhood meetings. Thank you. Welcome >> Else at that end. No. Okay. Um Yep. I haven't forgotten them.
Board professionals, do you have any comments or questions? Probably a carryover from when we first did the report. On page eight, second paragraph, we specify that we used growth to create 820.
>> Yeah. So if you look at those figures starting at the figure five, figure six, figure seven, figure eight, right? We should go in there instead of 2027, it should be 2028. Correct. >> I'm hand annotating.
>> Same with me. >> 167 that are served on Manchester. different recollection. >> 247 I believe was was the phase one. It was the initial buildout at 150 and then 20 units were added kind of within phase
three which is inside the same property. >> Okay, thank you for that clarification. >> One curiosity question. If you're at level of service C and a car is trying to get onto the road, what is the safe
gap between cars? How many seconds gap between cars is safe versus not safe? >> Preston, you pay that much attention, Mr. Trill, after so to answer your question, it depends on whether you're making a left turn. >> Give me the right and then right or
>> or if it's a four-way, you can straight. The left turn is the biggest gap and it's assumed to be 7.1 seconds which >> long time. >> It's a long gap and that's what the
modeling software uses because it's inherently conservative. >> Real world, we've all been there a little impatient and we look left, we look right. >> I'm not answering any question about that right hand turn. Yeah, right hand turn >> because it only requires a gap in one
direction is much shorter and that's assumed to be 5.9 and >> right >> 5.9 right >> a little shorter and the reason is the modeling assumes for example if you were to turn right
we don't want a condition where even though I was able to turn right the next vehicle really has to be on their brakes we want enough of a gap so that let's say I'm the driver I can turn Right. I can accelerate and I don't m
following. Same with the left turn. The reason straight through movement is different is because you literally just have to shoot that gap. You don't have to worry about people coming up. That was my only question. >> Happy as always. >> Okay. Um seeing none of the board, I
will open this up to the public for questioning of Mr. Dean. Please reserve your comments for at the end of our hearing. But if you have com uh questions, specific questions of Mr. Dean, please up to the mic at the
podium. >> One. >> Yes. Miss West, >> just please repeat your name. >> West. >> Okay. ju just so you understand I'm not I represent the board certainly not Mr.
But on page four, they took the traffic counts from April 4 through June 19. What he testified to was what came back just as a check from 2025 in December, but his underlying counts were taken April 4th through June 19 of
2023. >> Mother's Day. >> Yeah. I'm using that as an example, though. I'm asking if they're >> on senior living or adult living. answer. The short answer is no. The the
more broad the broader answer is if it were a golf course community, that kind of retirement, senior housing, there will be seasonal effects. This being affordable, you know, senior housing
not subject to making an assumption no one here is going to have a second home. >> I think that's a fairly good assumption with a household, you know, automobile ownership of of one car for every two houses characterize it as particularly affluent where we have snowbirds for
example that that leave terms of it's difficult on Mother's Day. It's sort of like back to school night next. There's going to be days where it things could get a little chaotic. The good news is Mother's Day is Sunday. So it generally doesn't have an influence
on the regular peak hour day in and day out. Know that holidays, you know, isolated days in your community. Yes. Not with say for example assisted. >> Very welcome.
>> Anyone else have a question for Mr. D? Yes, we have someone coming up. Identify yourself again for the record. >> Edgar, 60 Manchester. >> And we don't need you to spell your last name. >> All right. Thank you. Um, do that
enough. Um, just a question. Uh I thought I read that the you know red oak I mean in your study that that you did one day of only one day of additional study on December 9th and it was from 7
to 9 and 4 to 5 is did I get that right >> correct >> but but um Ridge oak said that their most peak traffic time was from 9 to two. So, you didn't study the peak traffic time.
>> The reason we didn't is because it's a benefit to the community to have a land use like a Ridge Oak. Um, or say I'm trying to think of a a different example. I'll I'll just I'll use a movie theater
for recreational use. They tend to be busiest on the weekends or evenings, which isn't rush hour. So, I didn't do a study of looking at Ridge Oak when it's busiest. I did a study of when traffic in the neighborhood and community
assess their impact. I know in the middle of the day, just because of we put a machine out, traffic patterns look like the letter M. They go up real slow. They peak in the morning. They dip down lunchtime. Sometimes you get a maybe a
little bump, but and then they go back up in the afternoon and then they drop off at night. So the fact that Ridge Oak is in the middle in between those two peaks, we're not aggravating rush hour. So I don't need to study that because I know traffic is much less.
>> You know, traffic now, not I mean maybe three years ago was that like that, but you don't know the traffic now. And you don't know if you didn't study it. How do you know? >> Because I studied Ridge Oak and that's who we're here to assess. And we I looked at their traffic patterns
>> when 2023 from April through June. >> Right. So So you don't think there could be any possibility that that would change? Now >> are there they've had no expansion. They've had no, you know, res residents,
but the characteristics of the units, the housing type hasn't changed. And Mr. Dean, you did testify that in December of 2025, you did new counts at the same locations. >> What he's asking what he what he's asking is >> Yeah, but why did you study 7 to 9 and 4
to 5? And Mr. Dean is responding because that's >> I also want to make sure he understands that because that's >> I mean I I understand but but it's just counterintuitive because they claim that the peak traffic for Ridge Oak is time periods that they did not they did not
monitor. So, so, so from 9 to two or whatever the peak traffic that was, it's on their website and and was and it was uh reported today by Bonnie that the peak is 9 to2 and if you look at the
table, they didn't study 9 to2. >> That just seems to be to me to be, you know, a data gap >> to >> but I know he explains it. >> Let him respond again. And I just want to say for for the record appended to our report are the actual traffic counts
that we did. >> Yes. A speaker to the mic and b direct us to where in the >> Sure. after the the numbered figures uh one through eight which page >> now this pageentated page.
>> You're in a technical appendence. I then show the counts, the actual where where uh staff was present and and they monitored, you know, who turned left from Prospect onto Manchester and the like. >> These are these are titled the intersection turning movement counts.
>> So they were done from 7 to 9 in the morning and from 4 to 7 at night. >> So >> So they missed that same period. >> Correct. And the reason is we study rush hour. It's sort of like uh a movie
theater lets out at 11. Can I finish? A movie theater lets out at 11:00. I don't need to study traffic at 11:00. >> There's far less traffic on the road at 11 at night than there is at 5 at night. I I the fact that Ridge Oak has their
peak in the middle of the day is great. That's where we want it. We don't want it to aggravate rush hour. So, I don't need to study it. When I look at the conditions when they're at their worst, at their peak, >> what's off peak is immater.
>> You look at you're going to save this for your sworn comments. >> You're disagreeing with his methodology and >> Well, I'm just saying there's a data gap and he's not >> I understand, but that's the argument you're going to make to the board. He's not you're not going to move him off his
answer by Right. >> Right. So, at the end, you can certainly bring that up in your comments. Correct. >> All right. Well, I I wasn't satisfied with that answer, but any anyway, the uh the other issue, um you had two locations where you check speed.
>> Yes. >> One you said was right by the entrance or it says on the table at the entrance to the Ridge Oak, the proposed Ridge Oak driveway. Right. >> I'm going to read on page four.
Additionally, a speed study was performed along Manchester Drive at two locations, comma, just south of Juniper Way and just north of Prospect Avenue. >> That's where we did the speed study. >> Okay. Because there's a table, right,
that that pres presents and and on that table, doesn't it say at the entrance to >> That's north of Prospect. Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. So, but so it so north of Prospect at the entrance to the the Ridge Oak facility, the proposed new
Ridge Oak facility. >> It was on Manchester and it was north of Prospect. I I don't have in my file where the exact machine was installed. >> But you said it was at the entrance to Reoke as it is. >> I didn't hear that testimony. I heard uh north of Prospect.
>> I'll repeat just south of Juniper Way and just north of Prospect. I think it's in the table. It's in one of the tables. >> Now, here here's the table. Here's table two. Come and take a look. >> Table says proposed driveway, >> right? That's what I'm saying. >> Okay.
>> So, so it's So, those two things are correct. I'm not saying that they disagree. It's north of Prospect at the proposed >> entrance. And all I'm saying is, >> right, >> that's what the table says, proposed driveway. >> Right. All I'm saying is that that at
that point there's a speed bump and of course the traffic speeds are going to be low at the speed bump >> or a hump. >> Hump hump. >> Is that a question? >> Whatever. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> So why would you do traffic speed? So,
my question is, why would you do a traffic speed uh measurement right at the entrance to the the proposed entrance to the facility at a speed bump? And to me, that seems like >> it's asking why would you do it there? That's the question. >> I didn't do it there. I did it just
north of Prospect, well south of the speed hump. >> But then why does your table say it's there at the at the entrance? >> Well, probably for the same reason that he had to correct the 2027 to 2028. But I don't want to speculate either. But you know what? I was asking you why did
you label proposed driveway instead of north of Man of >> Is it your north of Prospect? North of Prospect. >> Hold on. I just want some clarification here for for the um public. Your testimony is that it was not at the
speed hump at the entrance. >> Correct. >> And how do you know that? Because when I assigned this to the staff member that conducted it, I took an aerial map and I drew red lines on it. And on those red lines, which I I'd have to look in and I
won't bore you with my life. I had a flood in my office. I lost a lot of paper files. So, if it wasn't digitized, I don't have it. Um, but on that if I have a digital copy, I put a red tick just north of Prospect as the report
states and just south of Juniper as the report states. >> Stop for a second. He's saying the report doesn't state north of Prospect. The report states proposed driveway, >> right? >> That that that's what he's saying. And your testimony is that if it says proposed driveway, that's wrong. It should have said north of Prospect. Is
that your testimony? >> On on the prior page, Mr. drill on page four at the very bottom it literally says just north of Prospect >> and it does say that on the bottom of page four he's just nailing you on the tape. >> Well, I'm just saying that that both
both of those things are true, right? They could be both be true. It could be north of Prospect and it could be at the entrance. Correct. Because they both are >> correct. And you're asking him and his testimony was it wasn't >> at the speed hump >> at the speed hump. It was north of
Prospect. That's what his testimony under oath is. >> Okay. Okay. >> You're you're going to give your comments or testimony under oath, >> right? >> And then another uh comment you made was that the the uh well I don't know what the term of the art is
uh good sight lines. >> Line of you mean >> lines of sight on Manchester? >> Yes. >> So my question is at the entrance >> you mean level of service or or sight lines? Oh, sight lines. He said there were good sight lines. Go ahead. >> Right. Right. He said there were good
sight lines, but on Manchester uh there where where I live, which is right a block away, there is not good sight lines. Um you actually can't see over the hump. >> Put it this way. You have to put it in
terms of are you aware that where I live at >> drive which is at the basically at the intersection of June Junifer >> that the site that the sight lines are bad >> are bad >> are you aware of that that's your question >> stated that they were good >> that's your question right that's your
question yeah >> I want to clarify my testimony which is >> as I started my finding relative to the site access which is we'll say for clarity at the
speed hump those sight lines are very good that's where ridge oak that's where ridge oak 4 will intersect the public street of Manchester so that was my testimony as related to
this specific site and its good sightelines which allowed me to draw the conclusion that there is safe and efficient ingress and egress. Your question pertains to something further south unrelated to the site. It's I take it it's your house at
Manchester. I'm aware of a rise in the road. I am aware of the intersection with Juniper and if there are lines of sight whether on your property or your neighbors that you believe are affecting traffic safety that should be directed
to public works or police. But it has nothing to do with Ridge Oak or my testimony. I didn't I didn't evaluate that. Right. >> That's an existing >> Okay. Well, I just You said I I heard that the sightelines on Manchester were good. And >> I think again >> I think it's clear.
>> Yeah. It was Manchester at the entrance where people would go to get to Ridge Oak 4. Is that correct? >> That is 100% Mr. Drill. Correct. And and that is the essence of this application. Is is the access to Ridge Oak safe and
efficient? >> And you characterize the level of service or what that term of art as a C level of service. >> No, he he I'm sorry. I think the testimony Oh, go ahead. you
you answer and I'm not going to >> that level of service C is only found at the intersection of Prospect and South Maple and only during the morning peak hour. It's actually a B in the evening peak hour >> and this is figure seven.
>> That is figure three, Mr. Drill. And then figure seven, which is the projection of future traffic assuming Ridge Oak is not expanded. And then figure eight are the levels of service with the Ridge Oak expansion.
>> It's all the same. >> They never change from current condition to either condition in the future. >> But is it level of C in on Manchester? >> It's >> that's what I thought I heard. >> No, you heard incorrectly. Manchester
and Prospector A. My testimony is at the intersection of Prospect and South Maple and it's principally driven by there aren't a lot. There's only four that turn left to to go towards say uh Lions, but they delay the traffic enough uh
where where it does require a slightly longer processing. >> You want to see figure three from his report that shows what he's >> No, no. I I just I thought I heard >> there may have been testimony that they that all of the intersections will operate at C or better, >> but when he was specifically talking
about the the Manchester and Prospect, he did note that it was level of service a >> question. Okay. Thank you. >> Um any other questions of the public? >> I'm going to close the public portion of questioning of this witness. Mr.
>> We're at five of 10. Would you like to We have you know no new witnesses called after 10:30 just so you >> understood. So we we do have engineering and architectural u that the main purpose of each of them was to come up briefly to introduce the exhibits and do some cleanup. I know there were some
questions directed at Mr. Michello but our our hope would be to please >> Mr. Michelle >> been previously sworn and you've been previously accepted as an expert in engineering. >> Thank you. >> And you previously testified.
>> Yes, I did. >> Coming back to clear up some >> lingering questions. Correct. >> That is correct. And >> is there an exhibit you you'd like up? >> Yes. I'm looking here. Oh, you have it. Okay, great. You You got the exhibit
numbers that we're using? >> Yes, I do. >> Not use. Oh, there we go. >> Making sure of something. Give me one second. Okay. And for the record, exhibit A10, the existing lighting plan dated April 22nd
is up on the screen. That is correct. So, I want to start off with um exhibit A10 um for the record here. And again, this was something that was mentioned at the previous hearing. Um we were asked to go out to the site and take some light measurements of the
existing parking lot that is adjacent to the development site. And we went out there with a a typical light meter that we have in my office that we typically use to measure light levels in the um you can use to measure light levels whether it's in the daytime or evening hours. It's used for both. Um, and we
went out there and we took measurements at the locations denoted as X's here on the parking lot, generally down the center of the parking lane and at the edges of the parking spaces. Um, we also noted on the plan generally where the um, existing lights were, and that's these blue um, dots here shown on the
plan. They're typically 12t high um, polemounted lights except for the light at the intersection down here. Those lights are much taller. are their typical utility pole lights at a height of approximately 20 ft. Um but again, our focus was primarily on the parking
lot itself. And just to give the board an idea of what light levels look like in foot candles for the ones that went out there um in the evening hours were able to see those foot candles. Again, this is measured the level of the lighting on the surface of the ground. So what we do is we take the light meter, we put the we put the receptor
flat on the ground, we step away from it so that we're not going to shade the light receptor and you can still shade in the evening hours. And you take and it reads the light level and foot candles at the ground level on the pavement basically. And you can see these levels here, you know, will vary. Certainly the further you're away from
the light fixture, the lower the light level is going to be, give or take. Um, there could have been, and I don't I didn't mark this down, there could have been some cars in the parking lots in certain spots that could have affected some of these numbers slightly. Um, but you'll see that for the most part, you know, a light lights around the
perimeter, you've got light levels that go a little bit brighter when you get towards the light fixture, such as a 1.1 um, foot candle. Zoom in a little bit here. Um, you know, here at the edge of the parking space here, here's your light fixture. You got 26 in the center aisle, 37 in the center aisle, 085 on
this side as you get closer to the light fixture on that side. So, it gives you a sense of what the light levels were. I did not do an average of these numbers because that would not be um really um apples to apples comparison because an average is based on the entire light level across the parking lot and we
didn't do that here in in terms of when you do an average when you do calculations, it's based on a grid with with um spacing and so forth. This was just to give the board um a sense of what those levels look like out there. >> Done on what date? >> Um you know, >> recently. >> It was done recently. It was done before
April 22nd in the evening hours. I just don't remember the exact date of of when we did it. >> Um here it is. It's on the plan the lower lefthand corner. April 14th. Uh the it was done. So those are the existing conditions
that are there. And then um and you'll notice just briefly if you take a look at that intersection where you have 20 foot high poles, the light level is 1.3 in the middle of the intersection. So it's certainly much higher because you have a higher light. It's a different type of light and it it throws a a
light, you know, further lighting in terms of it the throw of the light. Um we also did take some measurements down Manchester Drive just to show folks you got a 0.3, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1. There are no lights in Manchester Drive, but you do
still have some very light um ambient very low ambient levels that that that were out there. So, as as a baseline. So, that was exhibit A10. And so, >> outlier there where it says 7.3. >> Oh, yeah. That's 7.3 right there. It was taken
right underneath the light. And sometimes you'll get what they call hot spots right underneath the light fixture itself. So, depending on where you put the uh the light meter, you you can get that. So we we you we'll even see that when we do the calculations. So that just happens to be one that that we took right there at the light fixture. But if
you look over to the left, I got a 03 right in the right in the park line, the curb there. And that could have been it could have been and again I didn't do the exact measurements. My office did. They could have put the light meter right next to the curb and that curb actually throws a little bit of shade on on the meter itself. So that's why you kind of take these with a understanding
of where they are and how they relate to things. Um, there's also, if you notice, there's also a I don't know if this is an exact tree right here or a shrub, but that could affect levels on the ground as well. So, all right.
>> Uh, surface also affect >> um, typically no, because the light's coming down. If it's being reflected back up, I'd have to turn the >> meter upside down because the meter is a direct reading of what's of what's coming into the meter itself. If I turn
the the meter sideways, I'll get a different reading than if I leave it flat with me to the receptor. These are existing levels. And then we then went and said, "Okay, you know what? We were looking at this and and I know we talked about at the last meeting of the waiverss we were asking for on the prior plan. U we went back and took
a another look at the lighting design. All right, you know what? We can probably make some adjustments to this um and try to at least eliminate um one of the design waiverss in terms of the analysis." So, exhibit A1, which the board has in front of in front
of you as well as an 11 by 17 print. Um, >> what we did here was we came back in and >> that's >> A1. Yes, that's the one in front. Yes, >> correct. >> I did. I'm making sure my board knows which one it is. >> And I'll zoom into the numbers in a
second so you can see them on the screen. But >> Oh, so there any >> Well, yeah. What we ended up doing was we had six light poles previously and they were spaced further than the 60 foot apart which your ordinance says five times the height of the light pole is the max spacing that's allowed. So, we came back in, we said, "All right,
let's let's take a look at a plan that basically meets the requirements of your ordinance spacing, which would be 60 foot light pole spacing." And basically that that basically comes up with a uniform lightish light um layout here where the B lights are on the side of
the building. The A lights are on the park on the far side of the lot or on the south side of the I'm sorry, not the south side, the east side of the lot. You can see they're all directly across from one another. They meet the 60- foot spacing separation requirement. I've got eight park I've got eight lights in the parking lot and then I've got three
lights going down the driveway towards the existing parking lot for a total of 11. These are these meet the 60 foot spacing requirement. What we also did too was we looked at the wattage of the LED lights. We basically halfed it to what the lowest level of what the manufacturer um would can provide for
that typical light. I believe that ended up being um I had >> looking for the average for candle. >> Yeah, I have it on the plan. Hang on. >> The bottom left >> um it was uh 24th number 24 28.2 watts
is now that would be the wattage of the of the new lamps with the other ones are I believe like 56 watts. So we almost halfed it in terms of the wattage. Um and by doing that 2856 just a little bit more than half. Yeah. Um to be able to reduce the
intensity of the lighting because basically you're adding more lights. So you're you're um if you kept it at that 56 58 watts, you'd have more light you'd have higher light levels on site. So we reduced the wattage in half. We added more lights. And basically what we came up with was a little bit more of a uniform light distribution across the
parking lot. um where you've got the the the yellower shades where it's a little bit brighter and then the the lower the lighter shade is where it's a little bit dimmer basically in the middle of the drive aisle which would be in which would be anticipated based on the throw of the lights. What this ended up doing was and you can see if I zoom into some
of the numbers here you get a sense of of those light levels where you know closer to the light fixture you're you're 2.0 1.8 8 1.7 um as you get closer to the middle of the drive lane you end up at 7.5 point4. So you see how that that you
know goes goes lower as you get further away from the uh the light fixture and the throw of the light itself. What this basically does is it changes the averages across the parking lot. And based on the calculations um your township allowables for
residential in vehicular roadways is 0.4 and sidewalks is 0.2. We brought the average down to um 0.7 in the vehicle roadways and 0.9 on the sidewalks. >> And while the average is is what we're
seeking an exception from, we are also at 0.0 at at most of the property lines. Is that right? >> That that is correct. And we still we comply with that. Um and you'll see here that I have it on here, but again it's it's the non-residential average is 0.9 for the township, but the residential is
0.4 and we're at 0.7 and then 0.0 on the sidewalks. And the reason why the sidewalk number is at 0.9 um has to do primarily with um the notion that the sidewalk that is behind the curb line all along the building here is being
illuminated by the polemounted lights. So the levels there are going to be higher because it's underneath the light fixture. So that's driving up the average of the sidewalk when I break it out from the parking lot um because of its location. As soon as you get away from that, the sidewalk numbers almost dip down to zero along here. um you know
but that's really why the sidewalk numbers coming in um higher. >> What are those three triangular type shaped or amoeba shaped areas? Yeah. One and then two. >> So what are those things? >> So these the darker lines represent the
foot candle levels of one and greater. These thinner lines here represent the foot candles of 0.5 and less in in in inside of here. >> And Mr. Michelle, I know you had provided testimony on this at the initial hearing, but there was a question earlier. Um, can you just
provide some brief uh testimony again about why these light levels are appropriate for this type of use? >> Um, again, based on the type of resident we we have here, the distribution of lighting across the site, we feel that having a slightly higher level um is
certainly appropriate for for the users that we have here. Now, by redoing the lighting and changing the wading, we've changing the wattage. We've made it to be a little more uniform across the property um and and brought the level down but made it more uniform so that this way for the users it's it's
actually a more appealing um layout than how we were previously with less lights further spaced apart than what we have now. So we have more lights but we are we are closer spaced but we have a more uniform lighting distribution that's actually lower than where we were previously.
>> There no issue with the walk at the uh on the right side where saying there's essentially no lighting. No, >> I I don't think there'll be an issue. You'll still get you'll still get throw even though it says 0.0, you'll still get ambient light levels there. And again, the sidewalks were supposed to be
an average of 0.2. So, you have that balanced out across the site. And I think it was mentioned that if you walked around the existing Ridge Oak development now, you've got some of that same situation where you've got light poles spaced actually they're probably more than 60 feet apart and you've got some lower lower lit areas there, but you still have you still have lighting
of front of you and behind you to balance that out. So I don't think it's I don't think it's a negative that you have a couple of of of zeros across there. >> I I don't necessarily agree with that. I think if you know you're you're dealing with the community and you have a walk
that you know you're relying on some ambient uh light that you guys are are estimating are going to be zero anyway. Um I just think it probably be wise to do some sort of lighting scheme in there so people aren't walking in the dark. I
understand it's above the average. The the the lot is above the average but then you know put the sun in the middle of the parking lot and everything else is the average. So, uh, I, you know, put it put it where it's needed. >> I certainly understand that. I mean, if
it's, if if it's not, if it's, if it's not something that the board would have an issue with, we can certainly add another light in that area. Um, it would bring the it may not even bring the average up more than, you know, to affect it. But, >> what about ground lighting >> as opposed to a pole?
>> Walkway lights are >> Yeah, walkway lights. >> They don't really have ballard lights there. So it would they've had everything's basically the 12 foot high lights that they have on the campus. So maybe it would be just another polemounted light generally in the middle that would bridge the gap to to make that work like right where my
pointer is right here where my hand is. I would put one there and that would bridge that gap. >> How would you describe that if that were to be a condition of an approval? Add a polemounted light >> on the walkway >> on the walkway between the Ridge Oak 4 development and the existing parking lot
on on Ridge Oak one. I have a follow-up question just so I just want to make sure. So there is no lighting at all across the uh what is that I guess the western portion of this of the building right there or across the back basically there is is that zero
>> there's no there's no lights proposed out there >> at all. Okay. Just want to make sure. Okay. No, I think that's good. There's no door on the back side of the building. So, >> there's no um >> building mounted lights. >> No >> exit. >> The the exits are if we went we went
through this. There's an exit on the north face. >> Just want to be sure. >> Yeah. And there's an exit on the south face. Yeah. But no, there's no doors that face the east side of the building. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> Face the >> Oh, west side of the building. >> It's It's getting late. >> Yeah. >> North is North is that way. Ju just just
to clarify and and speaking with with the architect, there are wall pack lights on the back of the building that are motion sensored. So, they're not on, but just as a safety precaution, there are motion sensored lights back there. >> Okay. >> And on the exits, you come out and it's
dark and you got to walk into the light and then it's light, you got to walk into the dark before you get back to the light. What about putting motion uh uh lights there? So if you come out, you're not coming out into the dark. >> There will there will be a light on that door. It's just it's just a regular
doormounted light. We didn't model that. So there'll be So there would be one on the door right there when you come out. >> Get you to the light. >> Yeah. To get to get you through the walkway to the C-mounted light that's f that's on that side. >> I assume that's a shielded light. >> Correct. The C's are shielded for down lighting. And there's only two of them on the building. One on the one on the
north and one on the south. Yeah. light fixtures are also fixture as well as the same wattage consistent with the existing. >> Now these this well this wattage is actually lower because I we the original
one was the original one was in the 50s and I and we now went to a lower wattage to change the distribution on this site >> for LEDs and so it requires less wattage or >> well not that they're LEDs and they require less wattage in order to get the averages down. We had to go with a lower wattage light fixture.
>> There's no um no lighting in the gazebo. >> No, >> I just want to clarify that. >> Um so that covers my direct testimony on the lighting. One quick question on uh so with the new
additional lighting, what's the impact of that on the Manchester venue? >> The impact on Manchester is basically um nothing because we have to have shields on the Alights. You see the eight lights here. I actually have shields on the backside. So the distribution is meant
to throw the light in the western direction towards the building, not in the eastern direction towards Manchester. out. Yeah, it's it's very limited. >> Unless the board has additional questions on lighting, I'll we'll turn to a review we received from the fire
chief. I ju I just have one one thing I want clarity on on the I'm just going to say right or left on the right side the exit you're saying that's lit with traditional um you know overhead door uh
uh lights shield. Thank you. So what do you have I'm just thinking in in in in emergency. What do you have to get you from there to because that's a that's a reasonable walk down to where it's lit
again >> where the C where this C wallpack happens to be here on the building. There's no there's no door there. >> That's just that's just a wall pack on the building just for that corner. The door is just further to the uh >> to the west. Yeah, it's right here. The door's right here. >> I'm sorry to to the east. To the
>> east that doors to the right. >> Doors right? >> Yeah, you can see right here on the screen. This This is a door right here. >> That's going to have a wall pack. >> That's going to have a not a wall pack. A regular Look at the light. Yeah. Door light. Yeah. Your typical door light that you would see there. >> I thought it was the corner down to the
parking lot. >> This just more for just the corner of the building. I want to say security, but it's it's there for the corner of the building. >> Yes. I have um one additional thing I want to touch on in my direct um on a fire official fire chief comments that we got.
>> Correct. Yeah, we did receive a review from the Basking Ridge fire chief. There were two items that he raised >> the date on that. >> I don't think we were got a memo that did not have anything on it. >> So, there was a there was a a formal memorandum received from the fire prevention bureau that had no comments
to the application. >> What's the fire chief thing you have? Uh, so there was an email from the Basking Ridge Fire Chief um with two comments to the application. >> What What's the date of that email? >> Um, April I have right here. April 29th,
2026. >> Who's it addressed to? >> It's addressed to to Mr. Pointier from the Baskin Ridge fire chief. >> Did he CC the board? >> He he did not. He CCed um Rich Vondenstein Steinen who is the fire >> listen >> the fire official
>> forward that to the board. What does it say? >> Basically says say says two things and I I can read the um I can read the comments. I'll just read them exactly as they say. Um good evening Luke. Thank you for the opportunity to review and comment on this project. We have reviewed the proposed plans for Ridge Oak 4 and have the following concern
comments and there's two here. Um, as the access is proposed, there's very limited access for apparatus to access the building. In parenthesis, only the front side of the building. We would like to have additional vehicular access considered to the other sides of the building. This is a particular concern given the nature of the proposed
population for this building and the potential to have to perform rescues from the second level of the building. That's his first comment. And then the second comment um was there are no hydrants on the roadway approaching the building. We would like to have a hydrant at the entrance to the driveway along the
proposed water main feeding the building. This is important because there is no access to a hydrant in the line of approach to the proposed building and apparatus would have to go past the building to secure a water supply and then backtrack to the building in the event of a fire. Additionally, the closest hydrant of the secondary access is on the bend of East
Oak Street, which is several hundred feet from the building. So, we'd like to have another hydrant added on East Oak Street closer to the proposed building. So, those were his his two comments in the email. um are the responses to the >> My office spoke with um the the the chief um this is Doug Gazali who um put
this in the fire chief from Baskin Ridge Fire Company number one. I we spoke my office spoke with him this afternoon. Um and in terms of the second comment on the fire hydrant um we we concluded that yes, we'll agree to add a hydrant and after talking with him, we're going to add it inside the property typically somewhere in this area of the driveway
where my pointer is here. >> Yeah, but you need to make that for the record. So, the >> I'll say I'll say between the existing parking lot and the north face of the building along the entry driveway. >> I have a better idea. This is going to be continued anyway. Guess what you're
going to submit? >> Fire hydrant plan. >> All right, fair enough. >> And it's just one fire >> one fire hydrant. Correct. One fire hydrant. It'll be off of our fire It'll be off our fire line. We'll add one fire hydrant for him. The other thing was we spoke to him about the access and he he after explaining to him a little bit
more about the building's construction and the fact that it's going to be sprinklered um and it's only a two-story building, he understood that he has firetruck access on the north with the fire access company. >> You need to get something in writing >> from him on that. >> That's fine. I mean I >> and I would like to be copied. Yeah. So,
you're going to forward that, but when you speak to him, you need to have the board secretary at a minimum copied, but you should have all the board professionals. Let's tell them to copy all the board professionals. Give them the email addresses. >> Our engineer needs to be copied.
>> Yeah. Okay. That's it. >> Right. So questions on any of this testimony from the board, >> my uh construction was something else. Yes, >> that to you, Mr. Yeah. All right. So,
just a handful. Bear with me. All right. Um, so someone made mention along the way in testimony about trying to avoid, you know, construction deliveries and things like that in and out of sight for school hours. We kind of run a staggered school
start and finish time around here. Buses, kids start walking out to the bus in uh on South Maple like 6:45 I think it was when the first bus picks up to go to Whams Middle School. Then you have Oak Street Bridge is in between there at some time in the 8:00 hour and then Oak Street they're walking up to 9:00. I see
a lot of residents also using um Prospect coming up there to go to South Maple to go to some of the shops, the libraries, things like that. I don't believe the sidewalks are in great condition on Prospect. I think a lot of people end up using the street. Maybe they shouldn't be, but they do. Kids scooter, use their bikes, things like
that. A lot of dog walking. Um, projects like this often times they start behind. Not saying you guys, but often times construction starts behind schedule and over budget and general contractors have to make up that time. I'm just worried that the impact that this is going to have inside of going
through a quiet residential neighborhood to build this project. I think last time we discussed maybe, you know, ballpark 50 triacles coming out of there of dirt and whatnot. Uh countless deliveries, deliveries are going to be coming off 287, a lot of them getting out to North
Maple and they're going to turn down Prospect. You're going to have Mafit trucks, you're going to have cement trucks, you're going to have workers in and out. It's a big strain. I don't think anybody really fully knows the strain uh it's going to have on Prospect particularly. So, I've heard multiple
times throughout testimony that it's it's going to fall under uh Department of Public Works or the Police Department. I think we kind of have to know that at some point and know what they're willing to take on and what their bandwidth is to take it on. I'm not an expert in that area. I and I know
it's temporary. I think we can get through it. I just think we have to have a plan. So there's another possibility because this is being continued instead of imposing if the board approves this a condition about the truck routing and timing plan. Maybe you could have asked
them that you want to see before the next hearing you want to see a proposed truck routing and timing plan for the board's review and approval as part of the approval of the project. Can I can I comment to that for a moment because I I think with that what you're asking for there is and and I understand the
construction aspects of this and and again when you're having deliveries and stuff. I think we agreed to limit some of that stuff already to certain times of the day. Um contractors going to show up, you know, 7 a.m. in the morning, that's when they're going to show up. But usually that's a few trucks or cars when they come in. The bigger trucks like concrete, you know, wood delivery,
um material delivery, things like that to the site that can certainly be staggered and controlled, you know, in terms of when that's coming in. And we typically would work with the the the township engineer township engineers office at that pre-construction meeting to figure that out. The one issue that I would say that comes up with trying to say what we're going to do right now
with that is we don't know who the contractors are. We don't know who the vendors are. We don't know if we're getting concrete from one plant or another plant. So to be able to sit down and say here's where I think the trucks are going to come in at the next meeting. I think we would be just guessing in terms of that. I mean, I think we could agree to some hours and
some some conditions or restrictions to help that, but I think to be able to say exactly where those deliveries going to come from, whether it's 287 or some other local area in town, I think would be very difficult to lock that in. We we know they're going to come down Prospect, you know, that's a that's a given. And they're going to have to access the site typically initially from
Manchester to do the demo work and prep the and do some site prep. And so, you build the driveway coming off of the other parking lot. Certainly, Ridge Oak has parking available to the contractors to park. on site and maybe not on Manchester. So, we can limit that when the appropriate time comes. But, I think, you know, being able to lock in
where all those contractors can come from is tough because we don't have them hired yet. It could be a couple local one guys that do plumbing, electrical, and such that they may not even be coming from the highway. They may be coming from their own shops within a 20-minut drive. So, I think that's something >> my concern is not really so much where they're coming from. It's just the it's
got to come in. >> And I think it's the timing of it. >> I think even like, you know, like you have someone who's trying to make their last load of the day. So instead of a triacal coming down the road doing 25, he's doing 35. Try to make that first one, it's going to happen. So how do we and who do we call upon to make sure
that it's being monitored because oftent times these things once they go into the execution phase, no one's standing there monitoring it. We all push boundaries. It's life. It happens. It's business. We got to get it done. I'm just wondering who do we speak to in town to make sure that there's some sort of plan. And I
agree, you shouldn't have to know that now. And there's no way you can know that now. I I would I would be giving you bad information if I told you >> and I don't know if it's temporary speed bumps on Prospect during construction. I don't know what it is. I just think I want to put it out there to the board that I think we have to have some sort of plan to not just let it
>> go as it may and I think it can be managed properly. So, so to your point, I I think what I'm hearing is that, you know, it's maybe not necessarily a plan that would be to your concern being too prescriptive, but maybe perhaps it's protocols and guidelines for when
construction if and when it does on those particular days. Not saying what those days are because we're not predicting the future, but just a general guideline of who do we reach out to for the coordination of traffic. Maybe it's the police, else but having that discussion, I think, is really what
we're what you're suggesting. >> And I think that's a great idea. >> Can we have some sort of contingency in place that says, "Hey, subject to, you know, later." >> We've talked about a construction routing plan. >> So, I think we're going to have to flesh this out a little. You're hearing from the board. This is a big concern of
ours. It's a residential neighborhood. They're traveling through many residential neighborhoods. We're obviously interested in curtailing and putting some limits on ours. Mr. Eorio, from what I hear, is concerned about bigger trucks rumbling through these
neighborhoods. Um, so we're gonna have to and you're gonna have to come up with a solution for this. There can you do have the ability a lot of developers and owners do this. They have a construction routing plan. You can have a limitation
on delivery hours. you right now. All you have to do is find out exactly when the school buses are are out and then you you have a construction routing plan with a limitation of hours. It doesn't have to say when you can deliver, but it can say when you can't. >> And I don't I think we're in agreement with that. I think
>> we did that for Verizon with their large U with when we did the garage and brought in the T panels. I remember that. >> The only question is >> would you would you want to make that a condition of an approval or would you want to see that before you approve it? want to see it before you approve it,
then you tell them that's what they have to submit >> before the can the next >> his point though that's that's tough for them to get. >> No, it's not a construction routing plan is not what's tough to get is when will things be delivered, >> right? What's not tough is a it might be
hard to put together, but a construction routing plan based on the assumption that trucks are going to be coming in on a a certain route and the prohibited hours which would be coordinated with school buses. It's it might be a pain
for them to do, but it's not it's not tough. >> Should some thought be gi The only question is who who should? >> Yeah. So >> if you made this a condition of approval, you could have a board subcommittee work with them. If you want
to see it before there's an approval, I I my recommendation you don't have any board members working with them before an approval, then you'd have to say which municipal officials >> is a condition the board committee. >> Correct. I I think I think that's the answer. I think because I think then we
could say, hey, look, you know, we understand the plan's not perfected yet, but what the plan will not include because of the safety, you know, our concerns are about the safety to the community is these hours or whatever, right? You know, that that's I think we can say that >> wouldn't have to do it now before an
approval. You would do it >> before we start construction. it be it'd be part of the pre-construction meeting or they would that committee would be at the pre-construction >> meeting condition of an of an approval and it's going to be you know the lighting committee and the landscape committee go out after construction. This would be before construction.
>> Yeah. I think just in terms of timing we would probably want it phrased that it's not necessarily needed for resolution compliance but would be required prior to construction. >> I don't know that we can deal with >> Yeah. Right. Bill, just to be clear, I'm
less concerned with the timing. If we can somehow find a way to maybe make sure that the speed on Prospect and Manchester and Juniper can be, you know, can be limited to what's reasonable, >> be managed. I understand. >> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if we put up some temporary flashing 25 mile per hour lights, a couple temporary
speed bumps. I don't know what that solution looks like, but I think as long as we manage it, it's okay. that that could theoretically I say theoretically because you know committed but you could do that with typical orange construction signage which is put up during construction to you know reminder and it
gets taken down once construction is over >> and South Maple too. I mean I mean I know I know it's a county road but it but but there's a lot of foot traffic crossing that street. >> There is. >> Okay Dave uh Mr. Sly, excuse me.
Well, they're still taking construction materials out of the site though, >> right? And they're bringing in large >> bring in dump trucks. >> Yeah. prior to prior to land disturbance >> because presumably before do they have a construction meeting before land
disturbance or a construction meeting only before construction permits? >> Okay. Prior to land disturbance, >> your very well fleshed out and I'll volunteer too for the committee. >> I was going to volunteer. Yeah, I knew you were.
>> Um Um All right, more questions on this issue. No, >> I just want to make a note of like it's not just the construction uh but at the demo plan as well like it's impacts that as well preconstruction you know
>> right which is what we said land disturbance >> land disturbance >> okay do you have more >> I don't have anything more direct >> our board professionals have any >> microphone heard a question earlier about
maintenance of pvious pavement. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I thought I touched on this at the last meeting. Um but yeah, there there is a pvious pavement system here as I talked about and it does have to be maintained. Um we do have to provide an operations and maintenance manual that's going to be recorded as part of a deed
recordation on the property, you know, before con before construction. Actually, it's require it's it's required prior to construction, but you're not going to maintain it till construction is completed. Can we just back up for a minute because there's new members of the public here. What we're speaking of is the area that was for the fire access, I
assume. >> No, this was for the pvious pavement which was in the parking lot that was along the front. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, the operations and maintenance manual covers all the storm water components on the property. the pvious pavement system, the bio retention basins, um the piping, all that all those components are covered in
the manual and it explains the maintenance aspects of how that how those how those components supposed to be maintained. So I think there was a question about maintaining the pvious pavement and there was a comment I think it might have been in the environmental commission letter about having to um sweep or vacuum the uh the pavement
every every year to make sure it doesn't get clogged up. And so you have to move the cars to do that. typical type of of maintenance work that goes on there and that's that's covered in the manual. >> And speaking of which, we had talked uh we did not go through the environmental commission memo which I would like you
to go through. >> So it's 10:30 right now. Do you want him to do this now or do you want to do this? >> We'll have to recall you on that. But that will be the first order of business on the next meeting to go through the It's a lengthy memo that they gave us and I want to give it >> What's the date on that memo? The date
is March 23rd, 2026. Um, I would like to go through that. So, >> did you was that answered sufficiently, Miss Fehey? >> Yeah. >> Use the microphone.
>> I'm sorry. I said I just wanted to say that the public had asked it previously and it was directed towards Mr. Michelle. >> So anyone else from Yes, Mr. standard might want to go two plus two instead of
two plus one, >> right? Correct. >> Yeah. So, yeah, I would agree with Mr. Schly. Two years and then two years because according to Miss Kelly, it's probably going to be a year to build the building, but we know how construction timelines go, right? >> And that would be right on the
>> button in terms of a year. So, two and two would be appreciative to be able to >> build it. >> We're going to continue your testimony, but I want to open up to the public um any questions of you for what the testimony you've given presently tonight. and you'll be continuing your
testimony. So, >> does anyone have any questions of the the public? Does you have any questions of Mr. Michello of his testimony tonight? >> If you come all the way up, identify yourself for the record. >> West again. Thank you.
>> Two things. One, what was C? >> Come to the mic. Come to the microphone. C up here. >> C was a just a building mounted uh light. Is it motion centered or just >> I think C I look at the archive. I think C was just going to be on um as as uh
and turned off at a certain time of the evening. >> So that was my other question is did are these on timers and what were your times? >> Um confirm this. >> Yeah, you have a note at the bottom. >> Yeah, that's right. The parking lot lighting was supposed to be on from from
dusk to dawn because it was I I mentioned that at the last meeting because it's residential. >> And then so now you're still asking for an adjustment. Um >> still asking for an ex still asking for an exception. >> Exception. Yeah. Why? >> Um on the on the lighting level because we can't get the lighting to
when I did the calculations, I had to choose whether I wanted to get the spacing of the lights to comply or the light levels to comply. So based on the the lowest wattage I can get for the particular light fixture, I went with the notion of having the spacing comply, but because of that, my averages were
still slightly higher than what the ordinance requires, which is 0.4 for a parking lot, which is very low, very low lighting levels. >> And just to confirm, it's the reason in addition to the technical aspects is because it is a safer environment for
this community to be outside at night. Correct. >> Correct. Well, we they've already said 10 times they only drive 9 to two, so I don't that's it. You >> they may still be and there's still people that are going to come and go in the evening hours. >> It has to do with the lighting,
>> the type of wattage of the light fixture. Yes. >> Okay. The fixture. >> I think there were a few more people I Sorry. Hey, >> welcome back. >> Just uh when you I don't know what they're called. Blanks or something on
the >> into the mic. >> Into the mic. You >> the mic up higher. >> I can see. There you go. >> There we go. All right. Um along the the bottom line there, you said that you put
something on the lights so it shines, you know, east and >> he wants to know about shields, light shields. >> Shields. That's a word. Right. Right. So my point is all of the >> question is my question is why do you have it only protecting
towards the east where there's no residents where all the residents are north? So, couldn't you have some orientation of the lighting and the shields orientation to protect the light pollution from going north? >> South.
>> North is to the right. >> South. South. >> You mean Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. I >> Yeah. South. >> Yeah. >> So, to just explain that brief to answer that question. Um, >> yeah. Sorry. Um, as I mentioned, those A
lights have shielding on them, so the light doesn't propagate towards the east. Um, because there's no reason to propagate the light towards the east because there's nobody there on that side. It's a grass. It's a grass area. Um, the light itself, the distribution is more of a throw towards the west. Um, and you've got the building to the west,
which blocks the light from going further to the west. But to the south, the light only travels a certain distance because that's the throw of the light. So, I'm looking at this a light fixture here. And if I look to the south, you see the light levels propagate down to zero by the time you get away from the light fixture. So there's no reason I'm not going to
shield this the south side of the light because I do have to get light coverage on my my my parking lot there. So the reason why I don't shield the south is because I have to get distribution of light, you know, in in a certain direction to to throw that light outward from the fixture. But then once you get to a certain point, the light level's
zero and it's no longer impacting anyone. >> Come up to the mic to ask your next question. So, so if I'm standing on M Man Manchester um south and looking at that parking lot, I'm not going to see light.
>> No, you're going to see the light. But if you're standing if you're standing on Manchester to the south and let's just say I'm on Manchester halfway between my property corner and that light A. I'm standing in the middle here. Where I'm standing is going to be, you know, essentially I don't want to say dark, but there's going to be no light shining
there. But you're still going to see the the light levels that are illuminating the parking lot. That's just if you look out on any on any street, you see street lights and you see light underneath those street lights. It's going to be the same the same thing, >> right? I'm just wondering if there's any benefit to shielding it
south as well by reorienting that to the corner more and then shielding it so there'd be less. >> I don't think there's going to be any >> there's there's no difference. If I'm going to put the light on the corner, there's still going to be no difference. If I put the light here at the corner of the parking lot and shine it this way,
there's still going to be no difference. Cuz if I'm standing to the south, you're still going to see the parking lot. Now, if you go further south on Manchester, you got to remember we're just looking at a lighting plan here in the context of just lights. We're proposing landscaping on this southern property line. I talked about that at the last meeting that that provides some
additional screening. There's there's landscaping that's going to go on here on the site. So that's going to provide some additional buffering um you know dur during the times of during different times of the year. So that's also going to help reduce if you're looking if you're further south looking into the site you're going to there's going to be reduced views because of that.
>> Okay. The only other question I you made a comment about you know there was some anomalous light numbers when you were doing your readings. One were really high one really low and you said it might be near the curb. Aren't there some standards for doing this kind of
measurements that should be followed? So you don't have these you said it could be next to a curve. I would imagine you couldn't that should be in a standard somewhere that you don't measure next to a curb. You got to you got to remember and there's no exact
standard on on where I put a light meter on the ground, but you want to you want to measure the light from all directions. So just because it's next to the curb, the light may be coming from one side is maybe blocked or they may be a bush on that way. There's light coming from a different direction. So that's my point was the numbers are what we're
showing based on what we measured, but again it's it's it's an it's a guide. It's a kind of a guide to show you what's out there. >> So it's not like there's a standard like I know I do testing for a living and you know we have to test in the breathing zone. So, I would think you'd want to
test where people could see at a certain height >> so you wouldn't have these anomalous results that might impact the the evaluation. >> Put it this way. What's the standard procedure where you put a light meter when you when you want to get readings like this on the ground, right?
>> I don't know if there's a standard procedure in in the ASM that says for light measurements. I don't know that. >> But again, I put I'm put I don't I don't know. I do not know. I don't know. >> Yeah. But I put the light meter on the ground and you take the measurement. You do that in multiple locations and you you get a number. >> You would think that there there is a standard. I imagine it's got to be.
>> I I I've been doing this for 28 years and no one's ever asked me for a standard for where I placed the light meter on. >> I bet the two of you are going to look this up and when we're here next time you both >> look it up right now. >> Yeah. >> I'm not going to Well, >> you have any more questions, Mr. G? >> Uh, no. I'm just wondering.
>> All right, that's >> um Anyone else with questions from the public? >> Going once. Going twice. No. >> So, um, at this point, we're going to continue the hearing >> to May 19th, Miss uh, Slayman. Yes,
that's correct. >> Okay. Without need for further notice. But what is the >> date by which the board has to decide the application? >> Our time to act is August 5. >> All right. We're still well within it.
The only the only thing I'll say about May 19th and we would love to to be back for that next meeting. Um, you know, there were a couple items, I guess, the fire hydrant plan. Well, let's put it this way. Does the is the board willing to wave the 21-day submission rule and
go down to 10 days so that and to submit that's the MLUL required minimum. >> But what's the question? They don't. He's think they're not going to have enough time to submit 21 days before. >> Well, we're already within 21 days of of the next date,
>> right? So, if the board waves 21day rule and says 10 days, can you ask your ex uh May 9? >> Yeah. So, that gives us till Friday. >> Okay. What's the next hearing date after May 19th?
>> Second. >> We have anything on that agenda? >> Yes. Karns and Vicaro and some of us will not be here. >> Have the fire hydrant plan submitted by Friday. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, the hearing in this matter is being continued to May 19th, 2026, 7:30
p.m. Same room. No need for further notice. So, anyone out there, you're not going to get a new notice. You I'm now giving you notice. See you all on May 19th. >> Hold on. And um so we have Mr. Michello and we have the architect. >> Yes. Correct. And do we have any other
witnesses? >> I just wanted to set the stage here. >> Yep. >> Okay. Um any Hold on. Let me get my agenda here. >> Here. Take this agenda. >> All right. Um any com
>> any comments from members? Comments from staff? Okay. Going to adjourn the meeting at this time and we will see you on May 19th. Okay, >> thank you.