WEBVTT

METADATA
Video-Count: 1
Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=UTHR6yr3dQg

NOTE
MEETING SECTIONS:

Part 1 (Video ID: UTHR6yr3dQg):
- 00:01:23: Meeting Called to Order, Pledge of Allegiance, Roll Call
- 00:05:07: Millington Baptist Church: Completeness Hearing, Checklist Waivers
- 00:18:59: Board Discussion: Waiver Justification, Concerns, Partial Approvals
- 00:21:25: Motion for Waivers Approval, Vote and Proceed to Public Hearing
- 00:22:18: 131 Marstown Road LLC: Continued Public Hearing Introduction
- 00:24:27: Applicant Presentation: Plan Revisions and New Exhibits
- 00:27:11: Plan Revisions Details: Landscaping, Lighting, Amenities
- 00:30:11: Driveway Changes, Impervious Coverage, Environmental Updates
- 00:33:02: Addressing Zoning Design Waivers and Variance Updates
- 00:40:10: Eliminating Slopes Variance, Water and Environmental Impacts
- 00:41:58: Stormwater Management, D Permit, Drainage Basins Discussion
- 00:47:17: Water Quality Rules, Construction Impact Prevention Strategies
- 00:52:20: Detention Basins Overview and Overflow Management System
- 00:55:53: Water Source DOT Review, Variance Lists and Understanding
- 00:59:47: Sidewalk Buffer, Dog Park Noise, Recreation Areas Preference
- 01:06:23: Dog Park Noise Buffering, Maximum Dogs Limit, Noise Expert
- 01:11:25: ADA Accessibility, Van Space, Stormwater Review Concerns
- 01:14:41: Compliance Action Items List, Traffic Study and F Review
- 01:18:58: Public Comment: Ro Salaki - Water Flow Concerns
- 01:24:55: Public Comment: John Stein - Drainage Questions
- 01:26:39: Public Comment: Jack Salaki - Walkway Purpose Disagreement
- 01:28:16: Architect Brian Keelin: Introductions, Background and Qualifications
- 01:29:58: Architectural Rendering Presentation: Clubhouse, Unit Designs
- 01:38:21: Detailed Floor Plans: Design, Unit Configuration and Highlights
- 01:44:45: Basement Options, Homebuyers to Select with Configuration Options
- 01:45:54: Four-Bedroom Layout, Accessibility Issues and Layout Discussion
- 01:51:50: ADA Accessibility, Design and Senior Access, and Affordable Housing
- 01:57:13: Building Types Elevation Designs, Clubhouse Plan Details and Vision
- 02:05:23: Community Feedback, Clubhouse Evolution and Material Adjustments
- 02:07:00: Testimony Questions, Dormers & Architectural Details of Floor Plan
- 02:09:03: Floor Layout, Patio Dimensions, Sill Plate Heights & Heights of Club House
- 02:16:32: Public Comment: John Stein - Heights of structures with garage
- 02:35:49: Applicant's Representative: Sunonny Adoni to Address Issues
- 02:36:26: Address Board Members Questions: Elevator Concerns, Roofing Materials
- 02:39:28: Homeowners Issues regarding stairs, clubhouse and community concerns
- 02:44:51: Utilities & Solar Panels, Electricity and HOA, Site Infrastructure Review
- 02:47:51: Heated Pools to the Hours of Operation to HOA rules
- 02:50:56: Pad locations, solar panels and possible fees
- 02:53:29: Final Comments, Traffic Reviews and Set Meeting Dates
- 03:00:55: Carry to July 16th: Special Meeting, Motion to Adjourn
- 03:01:44: Motion to Adjourn Made, Board Members Concerns Addressed


Part: 1

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Good evening. We're going to call to order this evening um zoning board of adjustments open public meeting 41 146. First order on the agenda is the flag stand.

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>> I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America for which it stands. God, indivisible. In accordance with the with the requirements of the open public meetings for notice of this meeting of the board

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of adjustment of the township of Bernards was posted on the bulletin board in the section hall of the municipal building collier way basking region New Jersey was male newswater New Jersey and was filed with township

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clerk all on January 8th 2026 and was mailed electronically to all those people who have requested Metro. The following procedure has been adopted by the Bernard's Township Board of Adjustment. There will be no new cases heard after 10 p.m. and no new testimony

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heard after 10:30 p.m. >> Please >> here. >> Miss Dandria >> here. Miss Herrera >> here. >> Mr. Krauss >> here. >> Mr. Lindaman >> here. Miss Pear >> here, >> Miss Silver, Miss Trap >> here, >> Miss Warner

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>> here, >> Miss Benner, >> Mr. Quinn, >> Mr. Sly >> here. >> And for the record, Miss Layman is present. Madam Chair, you have a quarum and may proceed. >> Thank you, Miss Layman. Um, I believe we were notified that Mr. Lazinski could not make it this evening.

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>> That's correct. Do I have a motion to excuse his absence? >> I'll second that. >> And Terrera, >> yes. >> Mr. Krabs, >> yes. >> Mr. Lindamman, >> yes. >> Yes. >> Miss Silver.

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>> Miss Trap. >> Yes. >> Chairwoman Bowman. >> Yes. >> Thank you. Um, we also had circulated prior to the meeting the minutes for the special meeting of April 16, 2026. Do we have any comments,

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edits, or a motion to approve as drafted? >> Thank >> Miss Herrera. >> Miss Par. Miss Silver, Miss Trap. >> Yes. >> Chairwoman Bowman. >> Yes. >> Thank you.

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>> We also begin resolution this evening 2658. This is the award of the change order number two for 2026 professional services contract to the zoning board of adjustments attorney. Thank you for your service, sir.

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>> Contract. Uh do I have a motion to approve this resolution as drafted? Approve as drafted. >> Mr. I'll second that. >> Second. Okay. >> I'll second.

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>> Miss Herrera. >> Miss Herrera. >> Yes. M. >> Yes. >> Mr. Lindamman. >> Yes. >> Miss Popar. Yes. >> Miss Silver. Yes. >> Miss Trap. >> Yes. Chairwoman Bowman. >> Yes. >> Thank you. Next on the agenda, the completeness

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hearing for Millington Baptist Church block 8402 lots 4.01 and 7 498 and 520 King George Road preliminary and final site plan for variances variance

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conditional use that will be ZB26-01. Hi, >> good evening board members and board professionals. My name is Karly Clinton and I'm from the law firm of Dave Pittney LLP and we represent the applicant Millington Baptist Church. Um, tonight I have with me Azim Yousef, our

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project engineer from Boswell Engineering to go through the checklists waiver request. >> Thank you. >> Okay, so the we received the report from Mr. David Schly with respect to the completeness review. Um we are

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requesting waiverss from the uh finished elevations at the at the uh the project is located at the southeasterly corner of the property in the very back corner. So we feel that property we feel that the spot elevations with the level of

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contours and detail that we do have on the plans you know it might be a little excessive. However, if the board, however, if you know the board professionals felt that the that one property corner spot elevation in the vicinity of the project was necessary,

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we would feel a partial waiver would then be amendable. We would hope anyway. Um the true as the board knows uh in the event waiverss are granted from checklist

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items you always have the right as a board to require any role of those items during the course of the hearings if you need them or in the alternative uh as a condition of subsequent approval uh excuse me as a condition of any approval

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uh subsequent there too. So uh uh only a in essence potentially a temporary waiver every time if you grant one. >> Understood. M um the uh tree removal permit we will concede to that because

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of the diameter of the trees and given the ordinance and what the permit actually states. So >> and oh >> that is the numbers. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's number eight on the list. >> Yes. And then going forward, number 10,

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uh the locations of the individual trees with size and species. Now, at the time of the survey, it was only listed whether they were deciduous or evergreen. However, the size was obtained. We are replacing these trees basic essentially with

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either deciduous for deciduous or evergreen for evergreen for the most part. And we're trying to stay within that type of tree. Um, we felt that a uh waiver from that was uh would hopefully

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be amendable by the board. >> That's uh for 10. >> Yes. >> Yes. Eight. We will comply with >> and six >> the engineers advice to the board that Which >> item? >> Six with the spot elevations.

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>> Oh, how far away is this this this area from the development? >> Well, from the overall property, it's in the upper it's in the southeastern corner in the upper plan left >> or more away from where you're developing. >> It's around the area. It's just that one property corner around the area where

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are developing. That's why I was kind of saying that we would be amendable to a partial waiver just because of the nature that we're not developing any other property corner within the vicinity of the site. >> Not reasonable. >> Okay. And moving on to number 12. Uh partial

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waiver on the lighting plan. Um we're requesting a part now we will basically provide the specifications for the proposed lighting and the identification of the proposed m average maintained horizontal illumination on the plans in the next submission. with the existing

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lighting we were because of the vicinity of the project. It's new. It's in the back corner of the property essentially which is was the reasoning why we were requesting a partial waiver. As

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>> far as I'm concerned the >> Yes. And that's what we will do. Yes. >> Okay. Okay. We typically don't have a full lighting plan with illuminate ordinance compliance based on Thank you. And uh moving on to number

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13, the existing and proposed sight triangles. We are essentially building in proposing this project in the southeast corner in the back plan left. We're not proposing any new egresses or ingresses in and out of the property.

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We're not going onto any road. We're not expanding this parking lot into the expansion into the roadway. So, we were looking for a waiver from the uh ex from the uh site triangles. >> I was already there. You don't think you don't think it's

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unreal? >> That's right. And it is it is county jurisdiction. >> On the 15, uh we'll start with the environmental impact assessment. Um looking at NJO web, there's really no areas of environmental concern within the project limits or around the project

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limits. And we did receive a uh absence letter from Environmental Technologies Incorporated, ETI, that will be submitted in the next submission to the board. And we were looking to request a waiver from the environmental impact assessment

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because there's just no real environmental impacts to that location on the property that would affect anything whether that's flood plane or wetlands or anything because they don't exist. outarily

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if not exclusively a drive >> I mean a parking area expansion. >> Yeah. >> Yep. And the uh >> I'm I'm not the expert that weighs in on on >> you to say what I don't see an issue with environment

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>> as long as we have the letter from ATI. Well, that as actually separate item which I just realized. >> Yes. >> Letter from their wetlands consultant. absence. There's no wetlands on them. >> But does it also say there there are no

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other envir environmental issues? >> There are there's no flood plane. There's no >> nothing that would require a DP permit. And we have a we have prior we don't suspect there are any

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>> I guess my question is does the environmental impact study address anything other than wetlands a utilities traffic This project report is required. >> We don't necessar need it for

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completeness. >> I don't think you need it upfront in order to judge the application. aspect would normally be covered in a report. And uh we were also looking to request a waiver staying on 15 mind you uh from

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the project report. Um given the small scale nature of the project it is >> it's usually done as a combined report >> no one ever submits a separate but >> okay >> okay moving on to 17 uh looking to

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request a w we're actually looking to request a waiver from the fire service plan I know we initially did not in the checklist but we are looking to request one because we're not, as mentioned before, we're not adding any new ingresses or egresses to or from the

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property. We're just expanding a parking lot in the back. Um, and we're looking to just and we're looking to request that waiver just because of the limited scope of the project. >> I discussed this with the fire official

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going to get a report, a review memo from the fire official. All right. And uh the final waiver to discuss would be uh 18 in the letter uh photographs of the property location where the proposed improvements are

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hopefully going to be constructed should the board approve it. Um we're looking to request a waiver from that because it in the current existing condition it's just maintained lawn, a couple trees, really nothing going on there. Something similar. You could probably look out the

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window here and it would almost mimic it. Um, we're hoping to request a waiver from that. >> Yeah. Why? >> Just pictures. We're just talking about pictures here. >> Waiver deck or a pool or any other. >> Why do you need a waiver to take

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pictures? Just cur providing pictures. >> We could provide pictures should the board require it. >> Seems like the lowest cost item. Yeah. >> Area where you are. The buffering is going to be a question, >> right? Understood. Understood.

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And the remainder of the letter from uh Mr. Schly, we will comply with >> resubmission. >> Um the number one about the easements That is the entire list of what you are.

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of items. If the board is okay with the waiverss that we applicant would not have it would be deemed incomplete. No need to qualify. It's not a public hearing. >> Make sure um Okay. So then does anybody have any

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questions or thoughts on the waiverss? The only thing I'm concerned on anything is that I don't know what all these things are that we waved necessarily. And usually we re review them and they would say no issue, no issue, no issue or some issue. So as long as our engineer and David can identify those

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things that might have been on those reports that we should be aware of, I have no concern. Yeah. >> Waving them just to get >> the information if it becomes critical. >> I wouldn't know if I needed to require them. That's not the problem sometimes. So it's more of a

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>> it's more of identification that you would say you know board I addressed this I think you should get this you know for this application um not us necessarily knowing that we should get it all the time so >> like infill development so a lot of it really is it's already an existing

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develop >> right that's all >> I mind that would be helpful to evaluate like water flow since you're covering more ground. >> Well, on the >> asking for a waiver. Yeah.

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>> The proposed plan basically the proposed plans only show the parking lot in a little corner on the property. So the and the property is what seven five acre about five five and a half acres. We're looking at

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probably le we're looking at less than an acre maybe a half an acre of the property up in the corner which is where I kind of mentioned the possibility of a partial waiver just for the spot elevation in the vicinity of the proposed work despite the detail contouring and spot elevations that we are providing in that area on the

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proposed portion >> will provide us elevations in the proposed portion. >> Oh yes and we have everything on the existing already except Okay. >> So, you got a few hundred feet of topo before you get to the spot.

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>> Okay. So, I think we're comfortable with the partial waiver on that one. So, that we would get it for that one corner and then Okay. And the rest we're doing full waivers except for 18, which the board was not comfortable with waving the photographs.

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Got it. Okay, I'm comfortable as well. Okay, I'll I'll make the motion to grant the waiverss as requested. >> Second that >> with the exception of 18 >> exception of 18 and the two partial. >> Okay. Um

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we have a motion and a second. Uh Miss Silver and Miss Par. >> Miss Herrera. >> Mr. Krauss. >> Yes. >> Mr. Lindamman. >> Yes. >> Miss Pear. Yes, >> Miss Silver. >> Yes, >> Miss Trap. >> Yes, >> Chairwoman Bowman. >> Yes. >> Thank you.

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>> Thank you. >> So, next on the agenda is the public hearing continued from April 16th, 2026 for 131 Marstown Road LLC, block 801, block 2, 131 Marstown Road. Preliminary

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and final site plan. bulk variances devariances for use and F that is ZB25-040 welcome back Madam Chair if I may while council and her witness are getting ready uh the

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board will recall uh as will uh that this matter had previous carried without further notice uh from April 16 I believe our last meeting was to July 16.

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ever in the interim uh the applicant. Uh uh so notice as if it were an entirely new proceeding for publishing and mail which is the personal

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property owners. I reviewed that notice. I found the content to be service and of publication timely the notice 30 uh the mail uh also

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April 30 both of those dates prior to this evening's to have jurist Thank you. For the record, I'm Donna Jennings from the law firm of Wins Goldman and Spitzer. Uh, as was correctly indicated, we were here back

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in April. We are now um back. Uh, we're going to rely on some additional testimony from some witnesses. Uh, Josh Weary, who's sitting to my left, was a site engineer who testified extensively at the last hearing. We're going to have him go over some revisions to the plans

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that we submitted. Uh we have a number of other witnesses that we're going to be calling up. Um but what I'd like to do is just for the record indicate that we did receive some updated review letters from your professionals. In particular, we received a third review letter from the fire official dated April 20th, 2026, which essentially

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says, "This supersedes my prior two letters. I'm satisfied with what the applicant has proposed." We have a new review letter from the environmental commission dated May 7, 2026. A traffic engineer dated May 11, 2026. Board engineer dated May 13, 2026. And

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planner dated May 14th, 2026. So, we'll touch on those uh additional review letters as we go through the testimony. So, with that, I'd like to have Mr. Weary begin. And I would presume that he's still under oath. Uh the uh for Good evening everyone.

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So, I'm going to try to be brief this time. Um, but we do we would like to go through the plan revisions. As Mr. Jennings noted, we do have a new exhibit tonight. Um, it's entitled overall site plan rendering. I do have um handouts for the board as well.

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>> Have it on the in the documents for the evening or is this new >> plan? the most recent plans we have to display if you want along with your architect's exhibits. >> I do have a USB uh with that uh latest exhibit as well if that can hook up into

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this. >> But is this a new exhibit this evening? >> Thank you. Okay, I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Perfect. So again, this exhibit is entitled overall site plan rendering is dated with today's date uh May 14th 2026

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at a scale of 1 in equals 80 ft and north is to the top right corner of the page. Um so getting into some of the revisions that we had made since the last hearing we are providing additional landscaping uh and buffering adjacent to the uh residential uses as well as um

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around the amenity areas in particular the the dog park that was proposed. So with this latest design, we are proposing 50 more trees as well as 49 more 50 more trees and 49 more shrubs. So our

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>> make our landscape architect was very adamant on that. Um so our new uh landscape totals for trees were at 759 total trees and shrubs are at 1,753. In addition to that uh with the

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landscaping design we are providing additional street trees um placed at 50 feet on center as required that's spread out throughout the development. We also increased the caliper size for the replacement trees to a minimum of 3 to 4 in that was specifically requested by

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the planner and the engineer as well. We also revised the lighting design to reduce light intensities throughout the site which uh throughout the site which was something that we had discussed at the last hearing. We also swapped the location of the putting green and the

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pickleball court. Um that was able to uh push the eight foot high fence for the pickle ball court outside of the front yard uh further into the site. So we made that swap in location of the amenities. Uh we are providing an ADA

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space adjacent to the clubhouse as well which was something that was requested by the township engineer. We also added new crosswalks that would provide pedestrian access to the to the two amenity areas in the corners of the site as well.

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We're also providing three uh make ready ei charging spaces. Those are located adjacent to the amenity areas as well. Uh also includes uh new bike racks within the uh clubhouse area as well as the amenity area as requested by the

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planner. We also revised the grading um to eliminate the retaining walls. That was something we had discussed at the rear of the site. So, we used to have retaining walls that kind of run along the the rear of the property that faced 287. We were able to eliminate those

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retaining walls. We revised the grading in those areas. Um and just to confirm for Mr. when uh the units now along 287 now that we eliminated the retaining walls in that area um had to revise the grading to to lower the elevations. We're slightly

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cutting in that area now along the buildings. So instead of having grade uh concrete pads, those units will now have decks. So that was one of the changes that we had to make based on the grading to eliminate the retaining walls that was requested.

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We had also looked at revising the driveways, the residential driveway connections um to be 18 feet long and 20 feet length. Um however, for the latest environmental commission, they're asking for us to be a little bit more strategic on which driveways we we widen and

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lengthen. Um so we certainly agree to work with their office as well as the township engineer to do that. Essentially, we've been looking to minimize, you know, the improvements coverage as much much as possible. um and choose the driveways wisely of which you know driveways we think we need to

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enhance while still complying with RSIS parking requirements and like I said we can certainly work with our office and the bunch of engineer to to comply with that requirement as well >> haven't you reduced your impervious coverage now >> yeah we're significantly reducing the

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impervious coverage however with this latest iteration we did um upsize some of the driveways the environmental commission asked us to look at that again to maybe pick and choose which driveways make sense to try to reduce the impervious coverage back to to closer to it was previously. So, we can

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certainly agree to work with their office as well as Mr. on that. >> Still about 120,000. >> Sorry, quick question. Can you just remind the board why we were expanding the driveways in the first place? I don't remember what we talked about last

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time. >> Oh, no problem. So, based on RSI's parking calculations, if you have a twocar garage and a driveway that is 18 ft in length and 20 feet wide, you're allowed to count that for 3.5 parking

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spaces. So, based on the demand of the of the development, we were trying to accommodate that 3.5 in calculations. However, we don't necessarily need that um you know 3.5 for every unit. We can work with the environmental commission

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and the engineer to pick and choose to still comply with the RSIS requirements and try to reduce our impervious coverage a little bit more moving forward. So that's essentially what we would do as part of our next analysis. >> Widening 20 ft

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over the whole width of the driveway. Yeah, there was a separate comment in the environmental letter that they they asked us to to try to minimize. >> I do understand you're well over part. >> Correct. Exactly. So, we have no issue with working with both of you know their offices on that. So,

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uh next moving on, we did reduce the monument sign from 10 feet high to a six foot high sign. That was something that the planner recommended. We're also providing a secondary water main connection. So we now have two water main connections within Morstown Road. That was something that was recommended

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in the letters as well. And as part of again the latest site plan submission, we tried to address as many miscellaneous planning and engineering comments that we could. Anything that that that is still outstanding, we certainly agree to comply with. We just take care of that under the resolution

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compliance aspect of the project moving forward. So that's, you know, a quick summary of the plan revisions that we were able to implement over the last month or so. Um, there were some updates to the design waiverss and the variances. I can

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quickly run through those. Um, obviously our planner is going to talk a little bit more to those in more detail tonight. U, but I can kind of run through those just for the record. So starting with the design waiverss uh there's a maximum spacing uh for light poles uh for per for our property 60 ft

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is permitted. The original design was over 60 ft. We revised our lighting design to to comply with that 60 foot separation. Uh next is the maximum average illumination in vehicular roadways. Um we are permitted 0.4 foot candles. The

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previous design was at 0.65. We were just above that threshold, but we were able to to relook at the lighting design and comply with 0.4 foot candles and eliminate that design waiver. Next is the maximum average illumination in sidewalk areas. Similar to the

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previous requirement, we permitted 0.2 foot candles in these areas. The previously proposed design had 0.34. Again, we were just above that threshold. However, we went back to the drawing board and we revised the design to comply with the 0.1 foot candle.

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Again, was we were able to eliminate that design waiver with this latestation. And then lastly, for design waivers, uh it's the maximum spacing of shade trees along our private streets. As mentioned, we're permitted 50 feet. Previously

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proposed plans had greater than 50 feet, so we're not compliant there. the latest iteration for landscaping, we were able to add in additional trees, space them appropriately to to comply with that 50 foot space. I can see. Do you still need that?

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>> We were, you know, spacing them accordingly 50 ft on center unless there's a certain area that we need to reook at. We were under the assumption that the driveways would be exempt from that because obviously you can't put a tree in a driveway. So anywhere along the

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streets that don't include a driveway >> space between the driveway, you could put a tree. Yeah, there's no there's no exception to it. It's >> okay. But I don't I don't >> Okay, so understandable. So

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>> they have reduced the magnitude of the deviation. >> Correct. We're providing 50 ft on center whenever there isn't a driveway connection of the property. >> I agree with that. It looks like they're planning. >> Thank you for the clarification on that.

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Um moving on to the variances. Um we'll start with the maximum floor ratio. And just for the record, we're permitted 0.1 under existing conditions. we were at 0.16. The previous site plans were at 0.21 and these latest plans are at 0.25.

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So there was a minimal increase in the foyer ratio um for this this plan revision and that is due to the increase in the number of basements. Um so we did not provide any additional units. We did not increase the size of the buildings.

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That calculation was solely due to providing additional basements and that really corresponds to us eliminating that retaining wall along the bottom side of the property. When we eliminated that retaining wall, the grades naturally dropped to the existing

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conditions. We were exposing more of the basement in that area and those basements along this row of houses are now included in the foyer ratio. So when you look at the plan, the plan looks exactly the same as what was previously submitted. The floor ratio

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technically gets bumped up in percentage because of the basement being included in calculation. Um these are half basement or daylight half daylight basement. They're not walkable.

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Yeah, we looked at that. Yeah, and our architect can talk to that a little bit more detail as well. We worked with them very closely on making sure that we were 100% on the foyer ratio 5% as opposed to Based on our calculation, we've rounded

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up the 0.25, but if it's 2476, uh, >> relief is is >> I would I would Yes. Yes, I would agree. Next is the uh maximum lot coverage. So again, for the record, we're permitted

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25% Under existing conditions, we were at 40.12%. So that's an existing non-conformity. Um the last plan revision um was 31.01% and with the the latest revision, they're at 31.75%.

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So again, a minimal increase in the previous coverage. That was mostly to us um upsizing some of the driveways. Again, as we discussed, we will look to work with the environmental commission of engineer to try to reduce that number a little bit, but as Mr. Quinn mentioned, we're still significantly

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reducing coverage as compared to existing conditions. Um, next is the maximum disturbance to slopes of 20% to 25%. So, we are permitted 20% disturbance, which

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corresponds to 457 square ft. Based on our prior calculations, they're a little bit more conservative. We were actually requesting a variance for disturbance in these areas. But when we recalculated um the disturbance based on the township's definition, we're actually able to

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comply with only 212 square feet of disturbance. We're actually able to eliminate the variance from what was previously requested. Uh next is the maximum height of an accessory building. were permitted 20

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feet. The previous proposed clubhouse was at 32.4 feet. Um based on our coordination with the architect, some modifications to the clubhouse building and the average grade calculations, that clubhouse height slightly increased to

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33.88 ft. So, it's a minimal increase. Um and again, our architect can talk to that a little bit more detail shortly. And then the last uh item on my list from the variances is the front yard setback. Um I'm calling it the front yard setback technically but um

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referring to the rear facing the 287 property line. So a setback of 175 ft is required. The previous plans requested a 107.8 setback. This latest plans that you see

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today request a setback of 100.6 ft. Again the buildings did not change. They did not shift. They did not move. However, that setback calculation is now taken to the deck um based on the tension definition. Um so technically that setback did slightly get closer to

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the property line although the buildings itself did not move. Um that's J is that summarize changes site plans and impacts the waivers we calcul calculated Mr. Okay. Um there

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the closest setback to building in the corner there the 100 CX I think in his memo he put plus or minus 100 ft >> right for building >> correct we went into the into the the software and calculated it at 100.6

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Not back. Correct. Yeah. Reasoning was full play. >> And then in addition to the changes that we made um um the impacts of the waiverss and the variances. We do have

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some updates from a D and environmental standpoint. Um so the applicant has recently completed a phase one environmental report that was requested by the township that was just done and completed on May 8th. Um so based on their review, no environmental concerns

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were picked up as part of their analysis. We can certainly share that report with the township as you know part of their review. Obviously we wanted to give you guys an update on that. Um was discussed several times u with Mr.

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Quinton at the last hearing. We did reach out to the NGP confirmed that they not only reviewing our project they're also reviewing the storm water management design as part of their review. Um obviously NGDP approval will be required as part of any condition of

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approval and if any additional storm water measures are required or requested by the DP we will need to implement those strategies and obviously working with Mr. Quinn on that as a condition of approval. Um as requested by the environmental

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commission our office also performed an on-site inspection of the existing storm basins at the rear of the property. Um we did identify substantial overgrowth in those basins. So, our wetlands professional, who is also here tonight, Mr. Krueger, spoke with the D and

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confirmed that we can indeed clean out those basins, restore them to how they were originally designed. I know that wasn't a concern that was brought up at the previous hearing. Um, we will need to submit for a new permit for that as

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well as provide additional application fees and But obviously the applicant has agreed to take that on and go through that route to try to clean out those basins based on that positive feedback from the D.

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Um just wanted to note that the only caveat with restoring those basins um based on our review of the record drawings that were provided to our office, there were several trees um purposely proposed in those basins. So

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based on our discussions with the DP, not be able to to remove those specific trees, but the overgrowth um of brush and sediment that would all be able to be cleaned out part of our permanent application. I just wanted to make that

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clear for the record. And again, obviously any broken structures would be fixed as well as part of this additional application to the D. I think was mentioned at the last hearing, but the storm water maintenance manual will also include provisions for

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routine inspections and cleaning of that basin to ensure that it's it is functioning properly moving forward as well. That maintenance manual will get deported um with the property moving forward. Um few um couple things then I'll be able

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to wrap up. We did agree to meet with the soil conservation district prior to construction to discuss the basins as well as the ditch at the back of the property. That was something that the environmental commission asked us to look into. Uh we'd also agree to work with the soil conservation district to schedule routine inspections during

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construction. That's fairly typical and typically required and something that the environmental commission asks us to do. We'll also have an engineer on site do performing inspections during construction as well as well as coordinating with the township engineer on any township inspections that will be

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required during construction as well. And then lastly, it was mentioned um from the environmental commission lastly that we agreed to maintain and utilize the existing head walls that discharge into this basin. So under existing

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conditions, there was three head walls discharging water into that basin. It was requested that we utilize all three. Right now the storm water design only puts one, you know, maintain one of those head walls. They asked us to to to

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utilize all three to essentially spread the water across the basin instead of um you know sending it to one location. So we obviously agreed to do that >> you have agreed to do that. >> Yeah. >> I believe that wraps up my update from

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environmental. >> Thank you. Um Mr. Quinn, >> where I was struggling with a little was the water quality aspect of this confirm that the state adopted the new

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water rules. Uh of 2020, those rules now clearly state whatever your net increase may being a poor acre that submitted before that. also their grandfather.

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I had had, which is why I was worried to see if DP was I've had redevelopment projects where the D edged their position on it and they they actually required 50% TSS removal where we're

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taking down a bunch of pavement and putting that seems to have been done more on a case-byase basis. now codified that with the new um but again they're they meet the standard technically and the DP

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gosh as well as Dave Krueger ETA have any additional quality requirements. You have no you have no worry that the water quality here would be

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I don't know um impacted. >> Oh it will be impacted. It's going to get better qual qualitative >> I mean negatively. No, qualitatively they're rem they're removing a bunch of regulated impervious surface which is now motor vehicle per

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>> the DP has separated impervious surface from motor vehicle that is what's meant to be treated. They're reducing that by a great measure. So qualitatively you can imagine there's less of that motor vehicle surface so the water quality would get better. The question I was

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struggling with was whether or not they were going to have to be required to submit some TSS removal platform like either 50% or 80% is the new standard, but they're grandfathered and now they're going to be within the purview of the D who will require if they're

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going to be subjected to any numerical TSS removal. Qualitatively I could tell you it's going to get better in all respects because we have that much less trick with this development and and I was talking to Dave about this. The trick with this development is going to

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be the impact that occurs while it's transformed. There's a lot of material that's act out of it. The end product will be environmentally more friendly than what there is there now. You just have to get

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there. >> So, can't you put some measures in? Well, that's part of the soil conservation application and and the silt fence and so on. Is there anything further that would be required during construction

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to prevent solids from entering the water system? >> Well, in my estimation, that's beyond the perview here, but my estimation is there'll be some sort of staging plan required. If I'm the township engineer, which port engineer, but town engineer, I

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would want to know what's moving when, where is this going? Because it's it's the biggest impact is going to be, >> right? >> Purposing this correctly there. And for the benefit of the board,

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everybody needs to understand that we have engineers, we have the D, we have the township engineers, we have the soil conservation district, all of whom are going to be reviewing um the the stages of construction, the plans, the process, and it's not really

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up to us to determine whether or not they need to put filters on their, you know, um orififices and so on and so forth. No, no, no, not not initially. But I will tell you that I don't know how well staffed soil conservation is. So the town engineering department

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usually will get involved checking to make sure and if there's anything they'll alert. So it's not just relegated to the outside agencies. It is initially for the certification, but the monitoring, you know, have to be the

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town has to be a little more engaged. I've got something you said. The detention basins you talked about cleaning them. Are they Are they cast concrete detention bas? >> No, they're above ground uh basins. Mostly grass and overgrowth there.

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There's no concrete in them. >> What are they made of? How is how is there a tree growing in the dation? >> Originally, they were just grass dirt and grass. Basically, think of it as the ground >> grassy area. Okay. >> And after so many years uh overgrowth and wetlands that started growing in

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them. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Why do you have any low flow channel in those bases? >> Based on the old record plans, there was a strip of I believe rip wrap in there. Um which we would be able to to replace. Um but there was not a concrete lowflow

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channel. No. But the um um head the head walls are concrete that feed >> correct. >> Yes. >> I just I didn't understand how there was a tree growing in the detention basin.

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>> First meeting saw the video, but is there an overflow of that if it ever filled up? >> There is a spillway. And again, where does that go? >> Um to the to the rear of the site towards 287. And we believe there's a pipe somewhere in the back that goes underneath 287. Um and again once we're able to actually

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clean out the overgrowth when we were there on site the overgrowth was actually over our engineers's head it was that hard to drove the site today and saw that area. >> Yes. It was that hard to actually inspect it. So once we actually get the approval from the DP to clean it out. We'll take out all that overgrowth.

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We'll check the grading. We'll make sure that the sediment uh that's been building up has been removed to make sure that they're, you know, obviously functioning properly. All the runoff from this entire site goes towards 287. Entire site goes down to 287.

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>> You don't want 287. >> Oh, no, no, no. I just mean but there it's it's one area you're concerned about. You're not >> normally with a big site like this, you're looking at several drainage areas where it discharges. This has got a single discharge. I think what's more important to us is

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is also making sure that it is cleaned out and the water has somewhere to go so that it's not going into the neighboring properties yards. >> Right. 100%. >> So that's really our concern and it sounds like the engineers aren't going to let that happen either and it all

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will all be evaluated further down the road. But um I think what I'm hearing now sounds far better um than what we heard the last time. Um, sounds like you have a plan to get everything clean cleaned out and make sure the water is going to be directed where it's supposed

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to go. So, thank you for taking a look at that. Um, did you have another question? >> Only that I remember in the hills we had a we had to pay a fee every year to the township and the township came and inspected all the retention basins. Correct, David? Maybe you guys didn't you weren't part of that, but I know

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they inspected we had to file reports every year. Okay. And we had to clean >> construction. >> No, no, no. ongoing ongoing, you know, maintenance of the retention. >> Yeah. Typically, as part of the maintenance manual, you would have to have a licensed professional engineer come out to the site after significant

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rainfalls or quarterly, make sure that everything's functioning properly. They would write a report. That report could also be shared with the township um on a quarterly basis as well um to make sure that everything is being cleaned out and everything's functioning properly. you're a big site

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kind and you're a single entity, you probably have to hire a professional to >> Yeah. >> Inspect and submit your report. >> Did the DOT have any comments? Did you have to apply? >> We did. >> Did they have comments as to where water

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was going so that they're making sure water's not going over? >> They reviewed it. They had no comments on it. Our traffic engineers here can can talk to that a little bit as well. Um, I would have to leave that up to them. I know they issued a letter of no interest. Um, but I'll leave it up to

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him to to to advise on that. I'm not sure their extent of the review. >> I've had that happen. >> DOT looking at the storm water. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Adjacent to their, you know, think, but I don't know if it should.

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>> Uh, Mr. Mr. SL, did you have any comments >> on the the list of variances that >> we actually we looked at that internally. We can convert that back to a concrete patio and and eliminate that the new variance that was listed.

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>> Yes. Um, building 43 not in the list. >> My list on page two, number >> number seven. >> Yep. on the uh lighting.

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>> I had a comment that there were two spots that looked to be comment number 13 looks like any to me. >> I think that was >> that area

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>> and then us from the clubhouse. Yep. >> We looked at it as well and we can agree to comply. >> Correct. Yes. >> One second. So number seven >> did you

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Sorry. Go ahead. Only other thing I I I we don't have to go through my entire memo. I we've responded to a lot and Josh knows what's in it, but the one thing I've been trying to get is a clear understanding of the water and sewer usage between housing and what

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is there. >> Yeah. And I I apologize, M. I I believe I thought that we were submitting that letter. We we should have submitted a letter. Maybe it didn't get to your office, but >> No. some point it just you've got numbers all over the two reports and I just wanted the board to understand clearly because the change of use it's

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all about impacts right so I wanted to be sure we understood clearly >> what potential change impacts associated with that change of sewing >> yeah and from a water standpoint just so the board is aware the the applicant did go out and perform a hydrogen flow test um and based on the the results we

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didn't see any issues from a flow or pressure standpoint which is great news um even with the the additional sprinklers ers that they agreed to provide in in town homes. Um, so we don't have an issue there. We certainly provide Mr. Quinn a breakdown of the the

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demand and actually when you look at the demand, the proposed demand is really not that much significantly more than what the office would generate. >> Well, that's what I'm kind of figuring. I thought we would want to bring out, but and look, it's the township is more concerned about the sewage obviously

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than the water. You'll be dealing with New Jersey American water, I think. Right. That's their issue but it the two generate one generates the other. So I just wanted particularly the board to understand what the sewer different. >> Sure I can certainly provide that.

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>> Talk again about um number 28 on Mr. uh Schlly's newer newest memo uh May 14th. I know we talked at the last meeting about the sidewalk or bicycle path along 202 and I know you said you were going

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to look at it. Um I was thinking about it. I'm not 100% sure that it's safe to have pedestrians walking that area of 202. So I'm wondering if you ever did get a chance to look at it. Is it something that we think that we're going to pursue or

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>> We did discuss it with our wetlands professional as well. Um he did discuss it with the D. We do have an idea of what permit we could pursue if the board would like us to pursue pursue that sidewalk extension. Um there is a specific permit that we could submit to

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the DP for that. But again at the last hearing I don't know if we had ever came to a resolution on if we wanted it or we didn't want it. Obviously the applicant said that we would um agree to pursue it but I don't know if the board ever came to a definitive decision on whether they

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wanted it or not. mile an hour speed limit. I think I'd be a little nervous walking along there. >> Um I think it's a suggestion in the master plan. Is that something that we leave for, you know, if there's future development further north of the site

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that it's something that could be looked at later or >> now as far as a thousand feet of >> Yeah. So you have the money if you decide to ever actually do it. But >> I have a question. Um could you make it

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so that the path on Marstown, it's similar to what is in the hills where there's a path but there's a piece of green on that is between the path and the road. Extra border. That's how it is in the hills on Allen Road, which is a pretty

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wide, very heavily used road, >> like a a nice buffer between the street, >> right? So, we have this path along Allen Road in the hills. You can drive it when you go home and but there's always a patch anywhere from

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>> 4 feet to 15 feet. It changes. Oop, sorry. It changes. >> Kind of winds. >> It winds. But if you're going to do straight, you can say, "Well, hey, let's put in a 4ft 5ft piece of lawn." So, as there's a buffer between the road

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and the path, it's just an idea. But I like I personally like the idea of the of the walkway because, you know, they're going to walk they're going to walk to their maybe they'll walk down to a a restaurant.

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We don't know what else is going to be built. I think I think a path would be good, but I think it needs to be a path. So, agree to me is a better option. >> We definitely think there's plenty of room in the front to put a path if that's what the board prefers.

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>> Well, right. I'm saying the board >> together collective option. Yeah, >> it's a safe it's that's a safer option and it would be nice. >> It'll look nice for the It'll make it look nice, too. It'll look like a residential versus a >> highway >> baldoff community, let's call it. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's DOT jurisdiction. So,

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they're going to have say on what final configuration occupants permit to put that in. They'll have some input. Um, if I was bringing up the dog park last time

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and I still have concerns, um, having lots of experience with dog parks and how noisy they really can be. And I appreciate that you said you've putting more trees or buffers in there, but when you're first starting out, you're talking you're saying you're

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doing three trees or whatever. That's small. That takes a while to grow. First of all, and again, you know what's reflected on your drawings when I drive by that site, there's no way that's that's the amount of foliage, so to speak, that's between

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the roadway of 202 and where your roadways are internally. So, I am still extremely concerned about the noise levels that could potentially be from a dog park, especially when you're talking about in the summers, you know, 6, 7,

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8:00 at night, it's still sunny. Same thing with 7 o'clock in the morning, five, 55 and older community, you're probably still going to have a lot of people working. What are they going to do with their dogs? They got to exercise them. They're going to need to do it before they go to work. And you know

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this, although this sort of looks like a big property, it's not a big property. So to walk their dogs there, they're going to go to the dog park. They're not going to walk them along 2 202. Um, so like I said, I I'm still extremely

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concerned about the the noise issue. >> I have another idea. Instead of a dog park, you should just put pickle courts. Just I'm on park. just put another pickle ball court or two. I'm on I'm on parks and wreck and I'm on the Somerset

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County Park Commission and we had to do an entire park of pickle ball courts and it's filled all the time. >> So applicants willing to do either like really recreation area so that preference of the board

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>> drown out the dog barking. >> So I >> they could be noisy too noisy. complain about the noise. >> Pardon me. Pardon me. You're trading one noise for another. >> It's as the applicant, it's your application. You're entitled to design

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it as you see fit. >> I agree. >> So, if you prefer a dog park to pickle ball ball courts, that's your call. Um, uh, however, your suggestion is understood. Um, the fear of the noise for the dog park. I do think that people

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will probably walk their dogs around the neighborhood as well. Not not not everybody's may not all go to the dog park. >> Um >> I won't go to the dog park. >> Um

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but do you want to just talk a little bit about the buffering that you did add just so that >> Yeah. And I mean the dog park itself is pushed back over 100 feet from from the rightway and then obviously you have the roadway and then the residents across

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from that. So there is a a significant distance to to the adjacent residential uses. I understand the concerns. We did try to enhance the landscaping all around there to you know >> can you maybe put some more mature trees or maybe a taller

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>> Sure. And we we try to do a mix of both shrubs and trees. So lower lower shrubs to block you know some of the noise from the lower level and then trees that would obviously would grow mature from a higher level. Then also you have uh obviously the buffering in the wood wooded area that's going to remain there

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today. So we did really tried our best to to enhance the landscaping as much as we could around there. Can we try to add a couple more trees? We certainly can look at that. Um if if the board's preference is to keep dog park in that location >> maximum number of dogs that would go to

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the dog park. I'm just make asking I've been to dog parks. I'm just sometimes they post something, sometimes they don't. No one monitors anything anyway most of the time. I mean, I'm I'm sure that's something that we could put in place >> that might limit the noise if you have >> with the HOA. I'm sure there's certain restrictions that >> I guess I guess my question is, do you

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have any kind of noise expert could at least provide a study or something to say I I mean I understand. So, how far distance-wise is this dog park from the nearest resident?

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>> Now, do a separate calculation, but we're talking 200 feet away. >> That much. >> Factor in existing woods. There's a, you know, route 202 is there, which creates its own noise obviously with trucks and vehicles passing around. So, I think

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there is a a significant buffer of trees, you know, the roadway. >> Go hang out at a dog park for a while. I promise you it it can other noisy. Uh I just I just have a concern for >> Is it possible to just

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>> I think that would be a great solution. >> Certainly agree to that. subject to the review and approval of appropriate representative. It's also NJAC7. We all have to abide by state regulation. Our municipal ordinance

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complies with it. valid time 10 p.m. daytime 65 dBA that will always will govern first and uh

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Any event there are laws and there is enforcement related to amenities in the community if they wanted to change that amenity to a different amenity. I know in the association documents they have to

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maintain the amenities usually, but if they need to if they wanted to change an amenity, whether it's the pickle ball court, the pool, or the dog park, do they have to come to the township to change that amenity then >> or pickle or remove the dog park and add a pickable corridor or stuff like that

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has to be approved would be impervious, >> right? I'm just asking do they have to get approved see they have to seek approval that that you get a permit to do that anyway >> I would call a significant enough of a change they would have to >> okay >> they were trading off tennis for pickle

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ball or bic >> right okay >> does anybody else have any questions for Mr. Do you have other comments that relate to Mr. Weary or do you think some remainder or a couple

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>> go ahead >> relate to plan revisions not the one >> I don't know if Mr. wants to He said he was agreeable to all of them. >> Yeah, we went through had no issues with the uh

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>> memo dated May 14 number five regarding the ADA requirement. Not certain whether it should be surface parts. In other words, are we counting

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residential driveway space? >> So to clarify that the the number of ADA spaces is actually calculated on the surface spaces or the visitor spaces. That's the 63. Um so that's how we calculated the initial three um ADA spaces. It does not include the driveways or the

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garages which will privately owned. >> And so the applicants are proposing for including a van. There any way to get the van space at the clubhouse? I know that's a parallel space. I know and it's arbitrary really where

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you're going to put spaces as far as needed, but certainly the I think that we most likely to be needed at the clubhouse space should be at the clubhouse if that's possible. >> Yeah, I don't see an issue with that. We would just have to jog the sidewalk, the adj sidewalk a little bit. But I don't

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see an issue with Next number six about the uh the I guess there's another question about applicability. I know the um statute seems to talk apartment buildings. ing the 50.

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>> It's kind of a gray area. Our traffic engineer could probably talk to it a little bit better than us. But at the prior hearing, we did agree to provide a handful of the EV up front near the clubhouse, which we did. And we also agreed to make make ready space or make the garages make ready for EV charging

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as well. make ready or are they going to be >> So those won't be make ready. They'll come straight with uh EV charging spaces that number is in >> in the garages. Correct. Yes. Yep.

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That's really all I had as far as >> Oh, I mean, in terms of mine, most of mine that we haven't discussed are action items. If you're okay with them, then we don't have >> We have no issue with complying or providing any of the comments that you're requesting. >> I actually did have um one question on

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your report, Mr. Schly number 26 provided the table of the zoning requirements. >> Yes. Um, but I didn't see a comparison for the F. >> So, is that where you were saying you would use the 25% then?

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>> Typically, my experience F isn't used that much. heading. >> Okay, I see. Okay, thank you.

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Most of the lot coverage reduction due to the grade change and changing patios to decks. Is that >> talking from an existing standpoint or from the latest change? >> No, from from the latest change from our previous meeting tonight. >> So, from the latest change, there was a

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slight increase um where we were trying to expand or elongate some of the driveways. Um but we said that we would agree to work with the environmental commission. And >> that's that I'm I'm just wondering, isn't that counterbalanced by changing

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the patios to decks? No, >> correct. >> I'm talking about I'm sorry, the driveways. >> I know, but I'm I'm asking the question about the patios >> changing to >> Yeah. No, that would just be a benefit. Yes. >> So, that does reduce lot coverage

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somewhat. Did you Did you include that in your number? Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, since we didn't actually reach a decision on the bicycle path, so it's called out in the as number 28, Mr. Schlly's memo, I

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my thought is that take a look, see if it makes sense to do the the walking path maybe with some sort of a buffer or payment in lie. I would be fine with either and leaving it up to the

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applicant. That fair. >> I'm just in charge of law. It's not We're We're quasi judicial, but it's not a court of equity here. Um but uh so uh offer, so to speak, from the applicant.

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Either or. >> That's what is the board okay with leaving them to make a decision one way or the other? Right. So you'll give us your decision at some point. >> Magnitude parameters details with that.

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>> The master plan does call for it. So I think we should look at it. >> Um does anybody else have any other questions for Mr. Weary >> for professionals? Are you all satisfied for the moment? Um, does anybody in the

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public have any questions for um, Mr. Weary as to the testimony that you just heard? Just questions. >> Hi, welcome. Could you give us your name again, please? Ro Salaki 114 Marstown

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Road across the street. Um we're talking a lot about the wetlands and all are having basements. Build the houses. All the black tops going to be removed going down for the for the base.

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I'm truly concerned about the flow of the water through that area. Uninterrupted. It was uninterrupted. What? Buildings. I will tell you as a resident right there across the street right on 202

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that it is a wet area. Everybody has sump pumps. So if you >> Mr. Do you have a question in there? Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I I get I get carried away. >> So, where is the water going to be going? If it's not going underneath the black

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top, it's going to be stopped by those basements. Where will that water be going? >> If if required, the basements will include some type of drainage system in the pump. But ultimately all the drainage uh combines to to the rear of

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the site and as we mentioned earlier it goes underneath 287. >> That's where it's supposed to go. >> Correct. And that's where we have >> to block it. So it comes back to the other side of 202 and all those houses there >> won't be permitted to block block the flow of storm water. We would be

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required to pick up any of that flow and discharge it to the rear because we were required to maintain the same drainage patterns that happened today. Sure. >> That is that is correct. Due to the significant decrease in impervious

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correct yeah >> not not increase but reduced. Correct. Reduce >> it would reduce it going where? >> To the to the rear of the property. >> So what he's saying is that they're they're reducing the amount of coverage. So they're they're going to be reducing the amount of black top that currently

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exists. >> Correct. >> So when you reduce the the amount of imperous cover, you naturally will have less runoff. >> Correct. But now there is the water is flowing underneath the the the black

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top. And so it is flowing, but you've got basements. That's what I'm I'm saying. You've got basements there now, which is cement, I assume, or cinder block or whatever. >> You're going through it. But how do you go through it?

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>> There would be some type of perimeter drainage that would be required if there was any, you know, blockage of groundwater in that location. So, as part of the construction, there would be piping and pumps involved to to any blockage of storm water. So in the

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in the development itself itself, you would have to have certain pumps like a sump pump like all the homes around there have to keep the water out of their basement. >> Correct. Yes. >> I I think >> I see >> we're talking about something different than storm water. I think your concern

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is that if groundwater that's in the ground and this water is going to go in all directions. houses will not be the basement are not going to be placed in groundwater. No, no basement should be placed in groundwater.

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So these on a new development I can't see that the any of these are going to be placed in groundwater which in fact would displace water. Basements still need some pumps because not only ground water but surface water travels along the basement walls and

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collects and that's but again there there should be no displacement of groundwater associated with the basement house because none of these houses should be built in the ground. Um, the other thing that was mentioned, um,

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I guess it's not a it's kind of a question. Why would anybody put a sidewalk on a major highway 202? Okay. And uh, where nobody ever walks on it anyway. There's no no

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um, would you be cutting down the trees that are there currently? Because that's a big thing for me. In fact, they have the company. Oh, here I go again. They just mowed the lawn in front of the

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area and they've kept a nice appearance. It's always nice and neat and landscaped and everything inside. And I would like, if anything, to see that the amount of trees that are there currently there because they were kind the last people

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they they um put in all the trees. But anyway, I'm sorry. Uh, let me see if there was anything else. No, I guess that was it. I'll have to wait till later. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Does anybody else from the public have

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any questions? >> Stein 172 Riverside Drive. Uh, just pardon me. I stuff's written down 20 pages of stuff. No. Um, the um roof drainage is that going to be

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going underground? >> Typically, we do underground uh roof leaders that would connect into the storm systems. >> All all the um buildings will have it or >> Yes. That's preferred rather than having splash blocks and water running all over

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the driveways. >> Exactly. No comment. Um will you be providing um fireflow testing for the site so that there'll be a minimum of a thousand gallons per minute

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for the um 13 or fire sprinklers that will be in the town houses? >> Yes. That's all I have. >> Thank you, sir. >> Better half was up here earlier. I'm Jack Salaki. I'm also at 114 Mar. My question had to do with the discussion

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that was coming back and forth about a walkway along 202 and bike paths and things of this sort. Um I I I don't know what the concept is of the builder about purpose of that and how it's going to be. Someone mentioned be nice to have a walk path. People could walk to

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restaurants and things. People don't walk along 202. They go to a restaurant except if you live next to the one that's on across from where we live. All right. So, the point my point is uh is getting a walk path going to require a state department of transportation

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approval? >> Our traffic engineers state highway. >> Yeah. Our traffic engineer is going to talk to a little bit more detail, but yes, it would be required. So I I mean fine for the property owners if if let's say they get approval in that section

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where the development is but to make a conception that people then could walk along and go other places beyond that go to I think is a little bit of stretch as as far as what would be able to be done properly. >> We don't disagree with you.

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That's what we're going to do. A payment and L sidewalks along 202 kind of up in the air. We did not we did not propose it ourselves. >> Thank you very much. >> Does anybody else have any questions?

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>> God bless you. Yeah. At this time, I'd like to call up our architect, Brian Keelin. >> Thanks, Mr. >> Thank you. >> Okay, I'll leave that here for him. Pray to God to refer that the testimony

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you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. >> Could Mr. Kein give the board your benefit of your background and qualifications? >> Certainly. So, I'm a licensed I'm a licensed architect in the state of New Jersey. I've been employed with Mid-Atlantic for over three years now.

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I'm a graduate of the New Jersey Institute of Technology and have been working alongside our principal architect, Rob Larson, who couldn't be here today on this project since its beginning. >> Yes. Thank you. You just give me your name. >> Brian Keelin.

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>> Brian. K e l anrian. >> Thank you. Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. We have um we have our updated renderings with some slight modifications.

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have a copy of the um architectural drawings that was already submitted. >> Can I pause you for a second? Do we have this put on the screen? that for the record of um architectural renderings that show the exterior of the development

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including the clubhouse as well as the various townhouse designs. Yes. So, this is the entry. Um, this is how you'd be greeted on the site uh with a significant amount of landscape buffering. Um, looking in to be greeted

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by the clubhouse which has been designed to be in scale. um similar to a residential home um with you know upscale materials, beautiful architectural portico. Yes. So, um, so currently, as we're all

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aware, the the, um, the site consists of an outdated office building, uh, with an expansive parking lot. And um while we intend to preserve the boulevard entrance and improve it with the landscaping as mentioned, um beyond this

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clubhouse, there will be townhouse units designed to accommodate um senior housing um clientele downsizing from their single family homes into a beautiful town homes um providing similar amenities.

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um and move their you know uh they can maintain the furniture that they're used to in their current homes and and provide them in these spacious town houses. Provide a safe private community that someone can feel comfortable, you know, whether it's locking up their doors and

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heading south for the wintertime and returning at their convenience. Um this is this is the idea of providing a safe uh welcoming community for senior living. Before we do, I apologize that I guess I

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was architecturals myself and I didn't hear uh did we mark these renderings or do they appear as they appear on screen in the architecturals? I I didn't think >> Oh, those color. >> Right. So,

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one thus far that we marked on the architect as they were not in the last revised May 4th, 2020, >> right? There's a set. >> Yes, these are all colored images, >> right? And we've only we only hit one. I didn't miss anymore when I was down

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there getting my architecturals. Okay, good. Okay, great. Please. >> Um, yes. >> Want to stand up there and direct the >> There's a mic up there. >> Pretty high tech. Microphone's also better. So, we'll do

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better. >> All right. Great. >> No free ride here. >> All right. >> So, exhibit A5 is a Close-up rendering of the clubhouse. Front of clubhouse. Yes, it's an image looking at the front

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elevation of the clubhouse showing some of the landscape buffering um as well as some context of the neighboring town homes. Yes, this is an exterior elevation of building unit type B. Uh, this is a three-unit configuration.

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So, this is A6 or are we doing a compendium? >> Mark each one. Okay, so we're on A6 and this is Yes, >> those are unit three unit configuration. Okay, I missed

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unit B. Thank you. >> The next exhibit A7 is a rendered front elevation of building type A of the three-unit configuration. Sure. So the the main difference is that these are two different these are uh two

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of the different aesthetic styles that we are trying to create pro provide variety um to provide varied architecture throughout the site. Um in as you'll see as we continue in addition to both type A and type B there's the various sizes of the three units versus

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two units. Um each of these designs use use a mixture of traditional forms um with some highlights of contemporary materials and finishes to provide architectural interest um in a design that that we're proud of and that we feel you know the community would be

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proud of. >> Favor, can you go back? Yep. Okay. So this is the three unit B and then >> this is actually type A for three units and this one's type B. >> Okay. Wait, go back to the

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the So, I have a question on that one. Where's the Oh, never mind. I see the other set of uh garage doors. It was behind the tree. I was very confused at first. All right. This would be A8. This is building type A in the twounit configuration.

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This would be exhibit A9. And this is a rear elevation or re a rendered rear perspective rather. And while this is of unit type A, the three-unit configuration, this would be a rather similar rear elevation for each

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unit configuration. South 287. >> Correct. These are all showing the patio condition >> ones have the decks. Where is it? >> Have to refer to the site plan for that. >> Correct. It's it's it's dependent on the

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site condition where the grading drops off. that requires the deck versus >> mostly the ones along that that back along 287. It's mostly there >> because they eliminated that retaining wall. So that >> Oh, I know. I know where I get that

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location. There's multiple types of units. I guess >> yes. And and >> and frankly, that's our intent to provide architectural variety throughout the site so you're not in a you know a corridor of repetitious town homes

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10. This is the clubhouse floor plan, a rendered floor plan. So, what we show in the floor plan are the the various spaces and programmatic areas, um, amenity spaces within the clubhouse, which I'll elaborate on

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further later in my testimony. That is all. Yes. there. Just give us the last revised. That's correct. Yes. Okay. So, starting with um type A in the two-unit configuration.

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Helpful. I can zoom in here. This is sheet A1.10. So, starting with the first floor, you'll notice with all of these unit designs, the the floors are only elevated just a few steps up to provide ease of access for our senior clientele.

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Um um the unit design overall in the two unit, it's a mirror a mirrored design with four bedrooms and three and a half bathrooms with master suitees on the ground floor for ease of access for se

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uh for this clientele. Each unit contains two large um a large twocar garage with ample room for recycling and garbage bins um as well as two driveway spaces. Receptical placement and retrieval of

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course would be the responsibility of the unit owners and would be governed by the association uh bylaws and regulations. Um so staying on the first floor again we have the master suite uh kitchen a

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double height great room with expansive windows providing flooding light on both both stories. Um powder room and kitchen. Uh and then the rear patio most commonly at grade um as opposed to the deck condition that is only in those few

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select few locations where required. Uh the rear yards will also accommodate two AC condensers and a grill if desired by the unit owners. Each AC condenser would be for a separate zone being the upstairs and the downstairs. Um moving up to the second floor,

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there are three additional bedrooms and two additional bathrooms. There's a secondary loft sitting area with access to an exterior balcony. And included up here is also a secondary pri private suite. Um, as mentioned, some of the buildings

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may have basements. Um, some areas of those basements may be finished with others with other areas remaining unfinished for storage and seven of the buildings will have the walk out basement condition given the site grading conditions. Uh there are several several interior

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options for colors, materials, tiles, kitchen appliances, and such. Our clients looking to provide a customizable high-end design for these unit owners. And as we move to type A three units, the both the first floor plan and second

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floor plans are nearly identical to the two unit with the left unit being copied over. And as we get into the front elevation design, you'll see there's some changes and the upstairs bedrooms respond to those design changes. And

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what I mean by that is that you'll see on the left that the bedroom configurations may vary from the threeunit configurations. And that's really in response to what the front of the townhouse looks like, trying to create architectural interest without making this appear as three distinct

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units. Again, that's to try to fit into the sort of single family manner style and creating a, you know, smaller scale of the development. Are the sizes of each of the units relatively similar? Are they exact?

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>> They're not exactual responses, but besides that, our goal is to have them as repetitious and as >> exact as possible >> for all of them throughout the entire site. >> The average size is just under 2500 square feet.

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We have it shown at plus or minus 2,484 square feet. >> That includes the basements or does not include the basement. So first and second floor 2500 square f feet. >> That's correct. >> That not all of the units have basements. Some

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live on ground they with no basement. >> Yes. Um, so it's it's my understanding that we will um it's an option that's going to be presented to the to the uh prospective unit owners.

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>> Pull these before you have units buyer will be buying a house to be built. They will not be coming into a house already built, >> right? It's not going to be a a development that then is marketed. You're going to

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have buyers first and then build to suit. Whenever you build, but they'll they'll pick a a location and they'll say, "Okay, I want to live on uh Aiden Place and I would like to

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have a basement. confirmation, >> no rentals, all for sale. Can >> I ask what what's the average at a 2500 square foot? What's the going cost of one of these units? What's your expect?

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>> Oh, who would I ask that of? >> Some. >> Okay. I'm just >> Okay, so he has >> No, I understand. From a project standpoint, I thought everybody would kind of understand what the the because you're building it and you're putting materials in it, you know, that what the

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cost would be, maybe not the sales price, right? Okay. >> I mean, it's variable. It's going to be based on market, you know, market. I'm just everybody has to have a range otherwise you wouldn't build it. Yeah. And I also um and I think we've talked

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about this before, but for 55 and older community, and you keep talking about older, so that's why you have less stairs and things like that. Why do you need four bedrooms? What was the thought that went into four bedrooms with an older community?

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It >> it's it's a great question. It's it's something we're seeing more and more of in the market and that there's a demand for this um with trends of um you know having family members come to stay visit and having safe uh you know comfortable spaces for them to be accommodated

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whether that's hosting you know seasonal parties and and having place for your guests to stay. It's also maybe that the h you know two partners don't sleep in the same room anymore for various reasons and you have an an ease of you know sleeping arrangements. Many people

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today need an at home office. Um maybe you use another room for an activity, a craft, exercise. You know, all of a sudden four bedrooms are being utilized rather quickly. >> And obviously at least one person in the

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family unit has to be 55. >> Correct. >> Is there a minimum age for anybody to have to be able to be there and be a considered a resident? And what is the definition of a resident of a unit? >> That's really more legal. He's the

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architect. >> Okay. Sorry. >> What I what I can say is that they would need to abide by any governing bylaws and regulations. >> Are we going to cover that with somebody >> follow the rules? So I don't know if that's really a

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technically you could one partner could be 55 and one could be 50. have uh I think if your child has a disability for special needs >> my understanding is that the so this isn't for the architect

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>> but we are going to need to talk about this because I believe if I'm not if I'm not mistaken it's 8020 it's 80% >> that required for 55 so we're going have

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to address the other 20%. At some point, um, but it's a good question. Uh, I had the same question. So, let's plan to talk about it maybe with the HOA person. Um,

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>> yeah, but we'll get there. >> Can I ask maybe an architect question? >> Sure. >> Um, the other development that's down by Far Hills, have you are you familiar with that one that went up? I don't >> I'm not specific. And I want to ask you that question. I'll ask someone else.

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>> I just want I was wondering if it was similar in you know >> structures and makeup. >> Are all the units? >> Yes. >> They do not. >> I was going to say, do you want to consider putting in elevators?

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>> Someone requested it. Could it be put in? Um, I mean I look so I see the the chair the stairs. Okay. And the stairs are one shot. >> Sorry. >> I'm sorry. >> Okay. >> I just asked if if any of them

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>> heard the question. >> Oh, >> the question. >> Oh, the answer was no. No. >> No one could put in an elevator. >> I asked if you could put one in if it was requested. That was one question I had >> to clarify that that after construction Or yeah, I guess you said you said that

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they would be built based upon someone saying I want to build it or >> Right. Was that an option? I don't think. >> Right. So would that be a valid option like a countertop to say I want an elevator? You know, >> the answer is no. >> Okay. >> So the the stairs are a one shot. It's

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not like doing a split level, which is good because these people if they stay here, they're all going to be putting in chair lifts. That's why we're saying, well, I'm saying you might want to consider maybe some with elevators. I know it'll be more money, but they would probably sell

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the quickest. >> Okay. I I would also um like to restate that, you know, given given the small height difference from grade into the entry level and the presence of a a master suite on the

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ground floor, should someone be limited by their mobility, it really is that delta that we're talking about, you know, of course that would limit, but I I still think it's rather, you know, accessible. So the other question I have then going back is you did say that

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there's a couple of stairs, small stairs going into the entryway. Are there any units that are ADA compliant that there is no stairs to be able to get onto the first floor? >> There are not currently, but I would say

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that given the ample size of the garages that there are modifications that one could make if needed over time. Are the garages large enough to take a van kind of unit of which somebody who has to be in a wheelchair could could fit and you

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have two cars in the garages. >> Yes. >> Something you can change. I mean you're building eventually you can call it an adults community a senior want to have some units that are

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can be modified. >> No. >> Is it a requirement of building code? >> No, it is not was rental. It would be required. And again, this is this is something that, you know, our client sees a demand for in the market. And, you know, I

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don't think that we'd be proposing this if we didn't see the applicability of it. Relevant very familiar. You and I are both very familiar the the the the um but uh nevertheless there's

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senior housing >> with ADA uh access elevators. >> Any event don't want to get ahead of ourselves. Um >> I know I was just going to say >> that's what I was saying.

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>> That's that's middleage housing. >> Middle age housing >> and and also you know looking to buy this is, >> you know, with and it's not just it's not necessarily just wheelchairs. I mean, you talk about especially if you're talking about aging, you have people with walkers, significant amount

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of people with walkers trying to walk up, trying to get up those stairs, even if it's three or four stairs, it's going to be an issue for that community. So, you know, aging in in place is going to become an issue.

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My thoughts >> like a 55 to 75 community >> I have partners or at the office that are 85 with the stairs. >> We we might be getting a bit a field

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here but certainly the issue is is out there now. >> Someone after it was built and bought it and it goes into the association could modify it to adapt. Correct. >> Yeah. If as long as it's the in modified interior exterior, you would probably

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need your homeowners association, >> right? No, I understand it. Yeah. And and maybe that's part of the homeowner association duties and the modifications. And >> is is that something we have any kind of you can't put a restriction on doing an

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ADA compliance? >> We're we're a land use board. >> Okay. the the uh we we have uh uh we have jurisdiction but it's far from unlimited. It's another double negative. It's it has it's limited.

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>> The the >> there are laws in place obviously fair housing allow you to prohibit somebody >> they might not be able to do exterior but they could do something in the garage make it 88 fine. I mean there's other accommodations that can be made. >> Speaking of laws maybe just to to

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firm Recollection is that the applicant that if required uh requisite affordable housing set aside a component project I stated last time that there is a

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mandatory set aside ordinance 21- one three in our code require 20 for affordable housing uh and

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construction on site uh notwithstanding a request or an offer of a payment in lie that's ordinance 593

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adopted by our township March 10, 2020. Uh and uh that the minimum 10% project by way of on-site construction as a that's a law too that's

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Mr. Ken, do you want to um continue with your testimony? >> Sure. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> All right. So, um moving on to describe the um general elevation design of building types both A and B in both the

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three and two unit configurations. Um so again, in total there are four different elevation designs that complement each other well throughout the site. buildings will be laid out and dispersed with intent to create and maintain variety throughout the site. Um these

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are varied traditional forms with contemporary accents, color schemes. Um we see it as somewhere between traditional and modern farmhouse design. Um mixture of stone facads with high quality siding, different colors and textures and softened up with the warm

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natural wood tones of the garage doors. Moving on to the clubhouse floor plan. Um, we see this clubhouse as a as a place to, you know, create and reinforce the community while providing some family fun for visitors.

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>> Thank you. Um, so entering into the clubhouse, you're greeted by the foyer lounge area. Um, beyond that, there's a a golf simulator that's truly a sports simulator. It's more than just golf. Um, and it's really it's it's something that

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our client provides at many of his properties, and it's a it's a major hit. Um, you can actually play >> I'm a seasoned citizen. I got I'm a little slow lately, but um you can you can play golf against friends and other competitors um

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virtually from and and on courses across the nation. It also offers various other sports and activities besides just golf. So, it's it's really a, you know, a a great attraction for for the community. Um, beyond that, there's a private fitness

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center uh with high-end commercial equipment. This is not just, you know, your low-end uh residential gym and coupled with the men's and women's sauna. This can be sort of, you know, your your private neighborhood spa. Um, there's a threeseason sun room at the

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rear of the building. Um we see that you know with the retractable foldable walls we see this to as a space to provide yoga and similar classes um as needed and determined by the community. Um beyond

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that there's a great room here. Uh the great room will be limited in terms of its hours of operation as well as its capacity. Um it's not intended for large receptions. This is intended for community celebrations and events. Maybe a small birthday party, chess club,

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knitting club, right? Um, and in addition, we have the sales business center that will operate as a sales office before evolving into a business center for the community.

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Um, and then outdoor, we have the >> Yes. South, right? Community South. Yes. >> So this is well um I think intended for business purposes for any community member like

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not I mean like so I'm considering this like a remote office. Is that accurate? >> Is there going to be an on-site staff? >> No. property management staff. I'm sorry. >> No. Yeah. No, that's that's not the intent of that space.

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>> That's probably not for you. I'm sorry. Question for you, but okay. That's not >> So, there's no space in there for a HOA person to or property management person to be. >> So, it's it's it's >> you don't want to walk work in your out

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of your home. And now take place after the leasing office. >> Computers are are read are computers in the space. >> Okay. Okay. >> Um but yeah, in general, so there's

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there's various um you know, offerings out of this clubhouse and um these are all to be contained and limited with their hours of operation. Um the foyer, lounge, sports simulator will be open from 8:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. The great room will operate from 10:00 a.m. to 10 p.m.

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Fitness center from 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. And the pool from 10:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Memorial Day weekend to Labor Day weekend. Sorry. Where's where's the pool in this diagram? >> See it just on the edge here.

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>> Okay. And how large is that? >> Uh I do not have a site plan here. >> That's the outdoor pool though, right? >> It's an outdoor pool. >> It's an outdoor pool. Okay. Okay. I wasn't clear on that. Thank you. >> Have like a swipe card to make sure that

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I'm I'm not sure how the operation is go with that. So deferred for testimony >> first. You mentioned are those going to get repeated again? Are they in any documents? They're not in the architectural documents,

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>> right? Sorry, wrong question again for someone else. Okay. They'll be covered later. But just to clarify the location and size of the outdoor pool, you see the adjacent clubhouse here and the exterior

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pool which is uh 20 ft by 40 ft. >> Not really. The size of that is not really a question for you though. >> It's not really later. Thank you. >> Um,

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>> so just to go back to the exterior of the clubhouse. Um, you know, keeping in line with the rest of the community, this is designed with high-end materials, lots of stone, beautiful portico, um, residential style windows,

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um, consistent with the black window color that we're seeing, you know, throughout the market and especially throughout this development. Um, and in fact, this design has actually evolved a bit over time because our client has met with local community members and taken their feedback into

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account. So I believe one of the comments in the engineers review letter was a change from a brick facade to a stone facade and that was a direct result of working with the community members. Um, additionally, we've provided an increased amount of landscape buffering in front of the

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clubhouse here, which was also a result of working with the local community group. And, um, it's my understanding that that that group has expressed their satisfaction with this uh, via email to our client. >> That's correct. >> Our twotory,

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>> that is also correct. >> Most of the heights is a What's the height of the ceiling inior? Is it a normal or is it open in certain areas within the clubhouse

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>> higher than I don't know what a normal >> cathedral ceiling? Yeah. We we do not have a reflected ceiling plan at this time. Um the ceiling ceiling heights in this space I anticipate will be greater than those of the residences. Um but this is a one-story structure. There is no

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occupiable attic space or anything like that. Um it's strictly a one-story structure. No basement. first floor I I don't know is that >> 12 feet >> probably be I'm sorry I misunderstood. Um for the town houses the typical first

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floor it's going to be 10 feet and for the clubhouse it'll be 12 feet. >> Okay so it's not a big difference. >> So the sill plate is is at 12 feet. >> Yes. >> Mostly attic the second story. >> Yes. Yes. >> Back to the frontal view.

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Yeah. So you've got the two These are purely aesthetic just you know fake doghouse dormers and >> doesn't even shine down into >> the hills facilities at the kind of the same structure where there's nothing

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upstairs but it looks like there's a That concludes my testimony. >> Have any other questions for Mr. That was what's turning into the >> That's correct. and uh okay clubhouse and some models and then it

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gets rolling. Is that plan >> why I'm asking but there were that's had >> I um tourists the the tourists um and uh that's what happens when a lawyer tries to play

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architect um the the uh quite see that in the interiors or that's just really more facade it's plans sort of yeah there you go caught my eye

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I guess that's a office in one unit or >> it's actually a bedroom space. >> Bedroom. >> So it gets >> certainly could be but >> one of those it's one it's bedroom two, three or four. Okay.

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>> Oh, I see it now. Okay. >> Um how large are the patios? The fence only on one side that I saw, right? >> There are privacy fences between the units. So if you're on the end, it would

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be one side. >> But like sill plate height, is that because of the golf simulator space? >> That's certainly one of the reasons, but it's also just a grander space, larger larger spaces and a more proportionate ceiling height.

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site engineer. >> I think he's trying on it. >> He's already on it. >> You're under 8 ft. 8 ft deep, 15 ft wide. >> That does that typically Sorry, I can't talk. How many is that typically fit? I

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mean, how many people does that typically fit? Five chairs, six chairs, big table. >> Probably fit a small table. Okay. >> Excessive patio spaces. >> Okay. And it can't technically be

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expanded either because you're >> over our coverage. >> Okay. >> Coverages were proposed. >> You would have to come back before the board >> about the same size. >> Privacy screening.

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>> Yeah. The same screen. architect. There's something I'm not understanding. Earlier it was said the clubhouse height is 33.88, but yet you you're only having a 12t wall height. So is that you have 20.

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So what I so the the design of of the clubhouse is intended to present as a manner style single family home keeping in line with the general context of neighborhoods and

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um the development itself. Um to I should clarify that the the se while we're saying that the ceiling height is 12 feet. I'm not certain on the exact sill like the the you know the >> where the spring line is from the roof framing. Um so this was you know the

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design that we that we are presenting is something that we felt was architecturally appropriate um to achieve such >> second floor what what is don't I don't understand the point of that building height with

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>> yeah completely understand the question >> ceiling height >> it doubles the height of the building >> yeah and and I think part of it was that we didn't want to we didn't want the entryway to be greeted by some smaller accessory sized, you know, building that didn't fit in line with the rest of the

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community. We wanted it to present as a as a welcoming entry point um place that the residents are proud of and that, you know, makes a statement when you either drive by or enter the community. >> Not having a second story space if you have all that room above. I don't I I'm

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just not understanding this. >> Right. >> That's why they're doing >> it's more of the exterior. Yeah. Exterior statics versus interior use. >> I'm still not understanding that, but okay. >> It just seems excessive. I 20 feet above

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the above the ceiling height seems excessive. Um with regard to the building height calculation, the engineer. >> Yes. So we've we've worked um we've worked diligently with the civil engineering team to confirm each of the um building heights and in no in no case

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will it exceed 35 ft. Not what I asked. I asked if you know yet what the elevation is going to be from your finish calculation throughout, but you haven't developed that design enough to know. So we we don't show a dimension of that.

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You know, we I believe the the height of structure is defined for an average grade. And so um we are in agreement with our civil engineers metrics of height and they have been coordinated with the architectural design as well

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architect if the architect plan drives it. I'm just trying to get to the fact whether or not it's 31 ft 31.1 ft from the >> Yes. Do you want to see that on the plan? >> I would like to see it on the plan. It's on.

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>> So, why don't you just make a note that you add add that to the plans? >> That was stated earlier for the clubhouse height was 33.88 ft because I wrote it down. So, I'm just not understanding where all

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that extra space is going. I guess >> just I mean I I would call your attention to to the entrance, right? I mean it's a large celebrated portico that's clear for way finding and you know it's it's part of our architectural design. >> See any downside to it? Do you see any

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detriment? >> We we have a limit in town of 20 ft and they're asking for the 33.88 88 ft like to understand how it's being used and what the need for it is. Yeah. Why? Like why? >> But isn't that different for the height of the town houses?

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>> Again, >> so you're saying that there's a limit of 20 ft throughout the town >> for access for an accessory building and that's what they're saying the clubhouse is. That's one of the variances that's being asked for >> because it's an accessory building. >> Yeah, it's an accessory building. So it's being it's asked as a variance to exceed that 20 ft. And I understand that

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you need more than 20 feet for a clubhouse, but I'm not understanding that height with what is been has been described as the inside inside space. >> I guess the test >> Yeah, it it's aesthetics and and and

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presenting more in line as a single family house. Um, you know, consistent with the neighboring town houses. >> I mean, it's it's it's a matter. >> That's your answer. That's your answer. >> Yeah. It truly is just a matter of prominence

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and and effect of of entering the neighborhood. And that's that is what you're greeted by. And at least this uh clubhouse doesn't have stairs. >> Uh does anybody else have any questions for Mr. Keelin? Does any if you want to take a seat.

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Does anybody from the public have any questions for Mr. Kllinstein 172 Riverside Drive? Forgive me if I'm mixing architect with um engineer site engineer because

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with the porch you all said it's all a sudden say um I'll have to ask the questions anyway this is to your architect's um plans. Um, will you be putting um the floor heights from the garage floor to the top

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of the roof and possibly the um picture of the roof on the plans because couldn't find them on your asking for the for the height. from the floor of the garage to the >> garage floor or

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the top of the roof and stuff >> to the roof to the rooftop. >> We know what the elevations are, the exact elevations. And I don't think um they also have I don't think the um roof pitch is on there like you know a 512 pitch or something like that.

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>> Okay, that's Not trying to beat anybody up here on this. >> Um, can you confirm where the radon piping will be going through the roof? >> Um, that sort of information wouldn't be

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presented at this stage of the project. Once we get into permit drawings and coordination with mechanicals as you mentioned that would become relevant >> and that'll be reviewed by our township engineers. Correct. >> I won't use the mechanical I

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>> not you but the inside >> building department >> building department that's what I mean. Yeah. The sprinkler systems the R13 sprinkler system is that going to be for occupied space or all space.

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So it won't be for the attic space or garage spaces, >> right? Will there be fire department connections per um townhouse or per building? Uh, will there be any special soundproofing for the buildings are

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close to 287? >> No, not specifically architecturally. The first floor uh the height of the first floor ceiling is 10 ft and is the second floor um building height 9 ft. >> That's correct. Sir,

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>> you'll be providing um connections for charging for um EVs and then garages. The back decks will be railings on these back decks. >> Yes, the back decks will be constructed

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in conformance with the building code. >> The decks, are they going to be open or closed? Will they allow for proper drainage in between? >> Yes, >> certainly. >> Yes. >> So there'll be space.

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>> You mentioned that um is kind of unusual. You mentioned about having a basement as an option. Now, if we look at the whole site plan, is there certain sections they're going to have um basements where the every site's

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going to have a basement? Possible. >> Yes. >> Say there's there's certain certain areas of the site that are going to have basements due to the grading. They are going to be more susceptible to having a basement. Otherwise, the remainder are

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are have the option of having a basement. some of the um the decks over the basement there's a twoft difference. Will they have um railings on them?

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>> Um Whether the decks will all comply with the building code where there's where there's railings required, they will be provided. >> It makes a determin basement or not. >> So if I understood your your your question correctly,

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>> some of these basements come up a little bit and that's probably maybe two feet off the ground. >> So So the building code is actually the the threshold is 30 in. If you are if there's a greater distance than 30 inches to the adjacent grade, a guard rail is required

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>> only because this is supposed to be for older people may not be may fall off the deck. So >> that's why I thank you very much. Hey Todd, uh real quick, um if you look at

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the um front elevation building type, um plans, it's really around 33 feet. Okay, that is not exact. Says less than 35 ft, but there's a twoft uh entryway to get up. So, it's about 33 feet from

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that bit floor to the roof. Okay, approximately. So again, if if where where is this from the from the first floor to the top of the ridge? >> I think that was the same question that was asked previously and we we agreed

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with was it 31.88 ft 33.88 >> engineer has 31.1 ft. >> I'm sorry I believe That's the building height for the clubhouse, correct? >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> What is the requirement to put any kind of

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ice or snow, so to speak, uh, on a roof to make sure it doesn't come down on people, >> membranes to keep water. But you'll see some of the old farm

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houses, lower half of the roofs are studded with these projections. >> Those are meant to pre preclude ice sheets from falling off. Usually they're done on high roofs, fairly steep roofs. >> I guess I'm just wondering, is there any

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building code or anything that requires at a certain height or certain pitch of a roof that requires you to have to do something? >> Not familiar with the building code. I love >> So, um, as the applicant, you're going

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to comply with all of the building codes and regulations. Um, and are you going to match your numbers and you're going to put the numbers on the plans, um, for our next iteration? And you'll just coordinate and make sure that the heights and everything are matching.

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Um, does anybody else from the public have any questions? Seeing none, um, does you, um, have anything else you wanted to add? Jennings, would you mind if we took a

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fivem minute break? Um, we will not hold it against you for the time. We are 5 to 10 right now. All right. So five minute break. Sorry about that. Okay, we're gonna we're gonna um call back to order um the

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meeting. Um, Miss Slayman, I can say for the record that we have all of our board members present. Um, okay. Uh, Miss Jennings, >> call. Um, the applicant's representative, Sunonny Adoni. He wanted

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to address some of the concerns that he heard from the board members. >> Okay. >> Spray him in. Right. Do >> you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Thank you. And um I understand he's going to be addressing operations, some

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other issues. One issue we did address earlier on site uh uh housing. I don't know if he's anticipating. >> We already said we were going to do that. >> No, understood. And and I guess but in hindsight now I'm realizing that that

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might impact architecturals. I don't know. >> No, you're smart. You're smarter than you look, Steve. >> The the uh I'm I'm some stu I'm so stupid I'm arguing with you about my but the >> No,

434
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yeah, we're gonna we're going to come back. Obviously, we're not going to finish up. We have several other witnesses have to go. We know you have a time limitation. Um, so we we know now that it's the set aside. There'll be some consolidation of some of the buildings. We'll actually have less buildings at the end of the day because the affordable units don't have to be as

435
02:37:19.359 --> 02:37:34.640
big. Um, but they have to be the same type of unit under the new fourth round rules. So, we know all of that. And so, we'll work on doing that because we do have some other fourth round projects that we're working on as well. So, we're very familiar with the rules. So, and we've done a number of

436
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inclusionary developments in the third round. So, we're we're all good there. So I think what Mr. Doni wants to do is he did hear some of the concerns with respect to some of the comments and so he wanted to kind of address those but I'm going to let him do it in his own style. So he's going to let you know what he's he's thinking and how he wants to respond.

437
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>> Okay. >> He's a fact witness. Correct. >> Yes. So um I know you guys have an issue with the uh with the units with elevators. >> Warning around. I was warning >> I just >> so as far as the the units it's first

438
02:38:07.439 --> 02:38:23.280
floor living. So in the first floor you have a family uh kitchen, living room, dining room, you have a master bath, master bathroom master bedroom. So basically a typical unit is about 25 2600 square feet but the first floor is

439
02:38:23.280 --> 02:38:40.640
about 12,300 square foot. Our typical buyer for this um for this uh community is a 55 and over. Obviously, it's 55 and over. Between 55 and 65, um, usually a married couple. Most of the time, they they stay on the

440
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first floor because they don't really have to go on the second floor. The second floor is a tent for children, their children, their grandkids to come in for in holidays to enjoy. Basically, some um some of our clients, they work

441
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from home. They have an office, so they can go upstairs. Um, and that's why we don't put elevators. We build a lot of these product before and really not many people want the elevators because it is on a first floor. So we try to put minimum stairs from the garage to the

442
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first floor and the same thing on the on the um from the front door. So you basically walk in and you stay on the first floor. We have laundry on the first floor as well, not in the basement. So, um, and that's why we don't have we don't put elevators options for elevators.

443
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Far as I know you have concerned with the with the roof of the clubhouse. Clubhouse about 6,000 square foot of first floor. Okay. If we lower the roof, it's going to look like a flat roof. Right now, it's about eight on 12 roof, which looks grand. So, what what I

444
02:39:44.800 --> 02:40:00.640
wanted to do is to show a is a typical house. Um, and usually a house is a two-story house, right? So you don't regular five six,000 square foot house is two story not usually a ranch. So that's why the roof is so big. We can try to lower it a little bit but you'll

445
02:40:00.640 --> 02:40:17.359
see that what happens is the roof will come to a five on 12. It won't look as nice look like a flat roof and that's not my intent to to do a contemporary flat roof. And that's why it's looking like this. Um if you guys can wanted us to to show you next time we come to be

446
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lowered a little bit I could. But um I tried it. We tried it a couple times. It doesn't look right. Okay. It is a 6,000 square foot onestory. So, you got from from the from the uh behind and from the front and the back. It's a big span,

447
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right? So, >> what is the stand? >> I'm not really sure. I can tell you what the exact span is, but it's pretty big. It's probably about 40 feet. Okay. So, >> he's on it. Um, I'm not really sure his measurement exactly what it is, but if

448
02:40:50.560 --> 02:41:07.520
we lower it, it's just going to impact the look of that of that building. And now, if you look, it it best consists with the town houses. So, I didn't want to show a smaller building, a lower much lower building because now it it doesn't look right with the community. And it's the same size as a roughly same size as

449
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a three three townhouse um uh building. So, it really looks typical. >> Still have a a flat ceiling throughout with an >> So, as far as as far as the ceiling, soon as you walk in, I don't know if we can put that on. Soon as you walk in,

450
02:41:24.960 --> 02:41:40.960
you got that big the the front door and you got a big window. That's the foyer. That's going about 16 feet high, >> right? And then lounge is probably going to drop to about 14 feet. It might jump to 12 feet. So, so everything's going to go up to the attic. You're not going to see it.

451
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It's going to go into the attic space, which is a dead. >> That's my question is a lot of times people build attics and say they're not finishing them but do that later. So, >> but that's that's the that's really the question. >> By this construction, it's probably be a trust construction. So, you can go inside.

452
02:41:56.640 --> 02:42:12.160
>> Oh, okay. It's going to be roof trusses. >> Yeah, probably. Yeah, that's what it's going to be. >> Can I just go back to something you said a few minutes ago? minimal stairs coming from the garage to the house. Whereas

453
02:42:12.160 --> 02:42:28.399
before we heard, oh, if it's ADA or somebody's a walker, they can go through the garage. So that would have applied to me that there's no steps going from the garage into the house. >> So does that mean? >> Yeah. So some houses have one step. You

454
02:42:28.399 --> 02:42:46.399
got to have a step for I think the code has to have a step for the smoke to come outside basically for the garage. Okay. So, you do not have any housing >> building code that you have to follow. I think the minimum is four. Some of them will have one maybe one step. Depends

455
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where it is where the most one will have three. I think that's what got to make two two steps. So, basically take a step and then you're in the house. Basically try to get away from railings because the the the max I think the minimum is 24 inches for railing. So we try not

456
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even to put a railing because you don't need to. Now I know you were talking about the the the clubhouse does have an office sales office is it'll stay as an office for the HOA. The HOA because it's almost 120 units 119 units. Um, you will have

457
02:43:26.000 --> 02:43:41.359
an HOA person, maybe not a full-time person, but probably three, four times a week will be there and that's going to be their office to run the place. That's usually the HOA determines how many days a week

458
02:43:41.359 --> 02:43:59.200
when when I'm done selling it, we give it to the that that place will not be a business um place. That's what we do with go back to the four for the for the fourbedroom. Someone wants an office, he could go upstairs to his own house and it

459
02:43:59.200 --> 02:44:18.160
>> modification of prior testimony wasn't entirely accurate as to >> correct clear state. >> So that space is not for residents then to use like if they want to use a computer or something that's not like in a hotel when you go to a business

460
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center. It's a it's an office space for personnel. Okay. Okay. I just want to make sure. Okay. >> Um, there might be two. Yes. Depends on what it is. >> Is there any uh Sorry, this is a random question, but is there any uh like food

461
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service or restaurant in that clubhouse? >> No, no restaurant. So, if somebody wants to to have a let's say a party, right, they got to bring a caterer. They can bring a caterer in. And usually we do usually like this you can't stay there

462
02:44:48.000 --> 02:45:09.200
after 10:00. We have some So, no kitchen, no refrigerators, no nothing like that. >> Um, I think there is a kitchen on this one, but not a commercial kitchen. >> All kitchen you can compare. >> Another question that I just occurred to

463
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me. Utilities, are they going to be above ground or below ground? >> A new development like this, everything's on. Gas is always on the ground, >> right? >> What is on the ground? But usually electrical. >> So no wires. >> No wires. Usually cables. Right now all

464
02:45:26.720 --> 02:45:50.880
the utility companies wants everything done for me. >> Probably no hot box on this one because each house will have its own curve box and his own meter inside the house owned. So usually on those when when

465
02:45:50.880 --> 02:46:07.680
they put a hot box they put a one big meter. Okay. We didn't talk to American Water, but usually on a townhouse style like this, it's a loop of water, cur curb boxes by the curb, and then each person has a water meter either by a pit, small

466
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little pit by the curb or inside depends. >> Can you go back and I apologize, I am not sure that I understood. There's a business center inside the townhouse and we were talking about people maybe like a like a home office kind of a thing. When you're talking about the sales

467
02:46:24.479 --> 02:46:40.960
office or the office where the you might have an HOA worker, is that two separate spaces or are we talking about the business center? >> If that business is not, it's a mistake. >> It's it's not a business center. It's an office. Okay. I I thought we were talking about two different spaces. So, I just wanted to sales office. Once we

468
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sell everything out, then the HOA person >> that runs it will be there a couple days a week. depends on what they need. >> Whatever the board decides the HOA is and whatever the HOA uses to >> Yeah. >> President's gonna have a swipe card or

469
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something. So you don't have >> Yeah. So now they have everything by your phone come in and put your phone. Okay. So the clubhouse usually locked and only residents can come in. Um, usually we have, if you look,

470
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there's an there's an outside door going to the fitness center because the fitness center opens up earlier and stays later clubhouse. Now, we can control the HOA can control even if you're a resident and you want to come in 11 o'clock p.m. all these openings. It's pretty cool.

471
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Police open usually from Memorial Day weekend to uh Labor Day weekend. Locked. Do you have a um a lifeguard? >> I don't know what the rules are. >> In for Jersey. I think you got to have a

472
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lifeguard. I think you do. >> Yes. >> Research that for you. >> So, yeah, we did that for for rentals. >> There's so many toys that don't, but yeah, >> but you're supposed to by laward hire a company that basically takes care of that whole pool. >> So, they come in with a lifeguard. When

473
02:48:07.760 --> 02:48:27.279
our lifeguard checks, usually they check the water to make sure the water is in good health and um they open up and close up the pool >> size pool. It seems small. >> So, >> or for all those people. >> So, you'll be surprised. Um they're

474
02:48:27.279 --> 02:48:43.200
going smaller right now. We built a lot of buildings with more units and um the pool is even smaller. It's >> not going to be heated pool or is it going to be It will be heated. Okay. Have >> a jacuzzi in there with heated jacuzzi. >> Okay. So, it could be used longer than a non-heated pool.

475
02:48:43.200 --> 02:48:58.720
>> Yeah. But usually they leave them. That's on the HOA. They can they can change it if they like to, >> but the typical is usually Memorial Day, >> right? Okay. >> Are there going to be any generators? >> So, generators? Yes. Well, it's up to the owner to put a generator.

476
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Owner can put his own generator. That's a That's >> Is that an >> clubhouse will have a generator? Yes. >> Okay. So usually they go on a platform which also then means additional impervious coverage. So how is that co how is that

477
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calculated into all of this since you're already over the impervious >> you're over? >> Yep. >> Reducing >> reducing. >> You're reducing it but you're still over. >> Still over. >> So I'm not sure if the engineer uh put that in there. the condensers and the

478
02:49:31.520 --> 02:49:55.359
generators calculated. >> So to answer that question, uh the latest calculation we did on on coverage includes the AC condensers at the rear of the building, but we did not include generators because we don't know exactly which buildings will require them. Um,

479
02:49:55.359 --> 02:50:12.960
obviously we could make some assumptions and add that into the calculations so we're covered uh moving forward. Um, >> I'm wondering what what that space would look like. So if you're looking at the patio in the rear of the house, that's probably the most likely location

480
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or maybe the side of the house. >> Yeah, I guess depending if it's a side unit may go on the side or like you said at the rear of the building, we can find a space for it. it wouldn't be a significant um increase in the previous coverage. And again, I don't know if every unit would want to install one of these generators either,

481
02:50:29.200 --> 02:50:53.399
but what I recommend to do is do a typical um plan for you guys to see what the generator >> the pad is not that big. So you guys >> Well, if you're a middle unit, what do you do if you're middle unit? typical drawing on it.

482
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>> Nothing. >> I'm not I'm not sure if that would even raise the percentage. I don't know if that would be enough to even raise the wall. >> Shouldn't you be asking for that now? >> Exactly. >> Certainly can. Yeah. Can I ask a

483
02:51:17.600 --> 02:51:33.840
question about the EV chargers? Um, so you said there are going to be three uh EV chargers for in the in the development for people that can pull up and and charge their car. But then someone mentioned about putting the also

484
02:51:33.840 --> 02:51:49.680
the chargers in the garage, but then is that every garage or is that going to be an additional add-on like when the person goes to build their home? >> You have to do a minimum I think of 15%. Oh, you have to >> definitely 15% of the homes will 100%

485
02:51:49.680 --> 02:52:05.439
come with it. >> Okay, that makes >> 15%. >> No, no, no, no. I think that's a it's a good thing. I was going to say three is not enough. >> No, three is not enough. >> Okay. >> Actually done and ready to plug in. The other ones are make ready. So,

486
02:52:05.439 --> 02:52:21.640
>> yeah. No, no, no. And it's in there and then you just plug in and you plug it into your car in the garage. Okay. Thank you. >> Do you have any solar panels consideration for any of this because You got a lot of electricity stuff being used. >> Uh, no.

487
02:52:23.120 --> 02:52:40.279
Every townhouse has its own meter. So now solar panel for each one. Um, owner could later on maybe get one, but then structurally see structurally can they can

488
02:52:57.840 --> 02:53:14.000
would have the option to do that though, right? If they want to. I mean, HOAs usually restrict some things, >> right? That's >> Yeah, but you said you don't >> the township override the HOA. >> I've done it before, so I can look into >> Can >> that's one question. Yeah.

489
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>> Can we Yeah. Can we just answer have one question and answer the question? >> Look at David first. It's the HOA that overrides the township if someone wanted something like that. >> Well, it can be more more restrictive >> more restrictive, right? >> Okay. So, would the HOA rules allow

490
02:53:29.520 --> 02:53:46.560
solar panels? That's why I'm asking. >> You write back to you on that. Let me think about it. >> Okay. >> Yeah, but just catch that he also has to look whether structurally >> No, no, that's fine. That would be >> and structurally make a difference. >> That would be the buildings aren't built yet. You could add a couple if we decide

491
02:53:46.560 --> 02:54:02.319
to give them the option. Can we have I'm sorry. Can we have one person talking at a time, >> please? >> You're You're fine. You're fine. For the board members, can we have one person talking at a time? >> So, do you are you sufficient? Yes. Are you sufficiently answered?

492
02:54:02.319 --> 02:54:21.279
>> He said he'd look at it. >> Okay. >> Question. >> Okay. >> The next one was >> Miss Trap, do you have another question? Oh, it's I just it was >> signed into the building now. >> So, you're going to look at the um

493
02:54:21.279 --> 02:54:37.600
feasibility of having the buildings be structurally supportive of um solar maybe for a percentage of them. >> Correct. and and I want to look at more for the way it's going to look because some

494
02:54:37.600 --> 02:54:58.920
houses are facing in the back. >> So, a lot of it might not look as good when you're in front and you're looking at a backyard and now you're looking at the solar on it. That's what >> Okay. Thank you. >> Questions or I think I'm done

495
02:55:01.520 --> 02:55:17.279
traffic. >> Yes. Um could you just elaborate more on the use of the um the great room? Is that going to be specifically for small parties? What exactly is it just residents only or with guests from outside of the community?

496
02:55:17.279 --> 02:55:34.560
>> So usually we up to about 30 people up to usually. That's usually what we do in the club. And if you live there and you want to have a party for your friends >> and your family, you could. But you have to you have to live there to to have that party. You got to be there in the

497
02:55:34.560 --> 02:55:48.960
party. >> Okay. And for the golf simulator, that's also just for residents. >> Which resident is their and their friends? >> Okay. And that's still limited to the hours of operation for the whole clubhouse in general.

498
02:55:48.960 --> 02:56:03.359
>> Correct. We can again we can um every room has a as a as a fob usually. So we can determine whatever room we want to go different hours and that's the HOA can um can change that. It depends on what the residents like.

499
02:56:03.359 --> 02:56:19.600
>> Okay. And um just one other question is do you expect the residents to be driving to the clubhouse and parking next to it in order to use it? >> Is that how you envision it? >> Typical. No. >> It depends how how cold it is or how

500
02:56:19.600 --> 02:56:36.640
warm it is, but typical it's within the community. It's not that big. It's not that far, especially there's a lot of houses around it. Um, >> thank you. >> But the spaces that are around the clubhouse, are they mostly for like So

501
02:56:36.640 --> 02:56:53.279
if a resident has a guest, they would park at the clubhouse. I think that's might be where you were going with that question. Is that correct? >> Correct. Because a lot of times they'll have a party and they won't go to the house first. They'll just come to the to the, you know, to the club. Is there

502
02:56:53.279 --> 02:57:09.600
are there pathways from the houses that are closest to 287 walkways I should say to the clubhouse >> walkway all the way around the whole community? >> Right. But if I'm in the middle in the very back and I want to go to the clubhouse, I don't want to go around. I

503
02:57:09.600 --> 02:57:28.920
want to go straight. >> So my question is, do you have small narrow walkways between certain areas? >> Right now we don't. >> Okay, that's fine. Thank you. Anybody else have any questions for Mr. Adoni?

504
02:57:29.760 --> 02:57:45.920
>> Thank you guys. >> Uh we can you hang on one second. We're going to ask the public if they have any questions for you >> if you wouldn't mind. Does anybody from the public have any questions for Mr. Adoni? Seeing none. Okay.

505
02:57:45.920 --> 02:58:04.120
Um it is 10:30. That was a great witness to bring up at this time. Well done. Well played. Um, so I we're gonna carry to I believe it was June. >> July >> July 16th, correct?

506
02:58:08.160 --> 02:59:08.680
>> July se Jul July 16. Yeah. >> Do you want to just take note of anticipated architect again? You're probably the end. We have our traffic engineer.

507
02:59:12.479 --> 03:00:03.040
You have a homeowners association. 16. Sorry, >> didn't mean >> uh so we're carrying again for the members of the public we are carrying this matter without any further notice. This is the notice uh to

508
03:00:03.040 --> 03:00:31.840
July 16. July 16 >> Thursday >> Thursday night special meeting >> uh night >> right here for >> time to act extension if necessary. >> Wow. How about August 15th?

509
03:00:31.840 --> 03:00:55.200
>> That's fine. August 15th. >> Okay. So, thank you. We will see you on the 16th. Um, we do have some matters that we need to finish. So, if I may ask you to exit quietly, we'd appreciate that.

510
03:00:55.200 --> 03:01:11.920
Um, so do we have any comments from any of our members? Anything talk about? >> I have a question. >> Yep. >> Mic is all sorry. Can we get some more

511
03:01:11.920 --> 03:01:28.720
information on the rules around just 55 plus communities for the board members so we understand what those rules are to evaluate this case better? because I didn't understand what you were talking about with like the 8020 rule and I was wondering if we could get some guidance

512
03:01:28.720 --> 03:01:44.560
on that. >> I think one of the well we don't want to talk about the case anymore but I think we can have an HOA witness that might be the witness to the >> so they can testify on that. Okay. >> Or the operation or the council. >> Okay. >> Somebody will testify on it. >> That's fine. Okay. Thank you.

513
03:01:44.560 --> 03:02:01.760
>> Yeah. So any comments from any any members or staff? Anybody? >> Um no motion. Everybody as always >> motion to adjurnn. >> Madam chair >> somebody had a question. Where is it? Yes. >> Are we cancelling June 3rd?

514
03:02:01.760 --> 03:02:17.120
>> Oh yes. I'm sorry. Didn't we do that last meeting? >> So officially we are going to cancel the June 3rd meeting. Uh we don't have quorum. Uh but we are going to have a meeting on June 11th. So June 3 is

515
03:02:17.120 --> 03:02:31.439
cancelled. That's Wednesday, June 3, which would be our normal. That is canceled. And we are going to have um our special meeting June 11th will be um for

516
03:02:31.439 --> 03:02:48.560
the next applicants on the agenda. >> Joanne knows that I will be an hour late on June 11th. >> Okay, wonderful. We call it a special meeting, but those who are still here know it's regularly scheduled.

517
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>> A regularly scheduled >> calendar at the beginning. >> Every meeting is special. >> Every meeting is special with this group up here. >> June 11th. >> Did I get a motion to adjurnn? >> I'll make a motion to adjourn. >> Thank you, Miss Trap. And a second and

518
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Miss Silver.