[Music] I will call to order the public safety committee meeting. I am Rachel Leon, chairwoman of the public safety committee. The committee members are Brian Callahan and Grace Cry Smith. The clerk will call the role. >> Miss Leon, >> present. >> Mr. Callahan and Miss Grampy Smith,
>> present. >> We have no other council members present tonight, this afternoon. YouTube stream reminder. If you start this stream after 2 p.m., please make sure to scroll ahead all the way ahead so that the YouTube
stream is current rather than a recording of an earlier portion of the meeting. There is one agenda item tonight involving the fire department. Fire department staffing study. Um I will now accept public comment with a fivem minute time limit. We're going to
go first with a gentleman who signed up. Um, David, that's you, sir. Yep. You're first. >> Number one. >> Uh, hello. My name is Dave Roof. Uh, 1625 Maple Street. I'm a retired
firefighter. Uh, I retired in 2011. I was hired in 1976. So, I'm I would like to give you a historical overlay of the Bethlehem party department within the city of Bethl, if
that's all right. Uh, when I got on the job, we had 116 firefighters, 26 per shift. I believe the police department was at 127 and there was no paramedic service.
uh Bob Tinsman and uh was very instrumental in getting the EMS service uh put in the city of Betham and uh later was supported by uh then Councilman Paul Calvo
Ersham and I believe uh Donz as you know you probably wouldn't even consider not having a paramedic service in the city of Bethl. today. When I got on, there was none.
Uh, so shortly thereafter, I would say not quite 8 years after, police department went up to, I think it was 132 patrolman. And then down the road,
they went up to 154. Uh again, the EMS service went from what we used to call snatch and grab to EMTT service to paramedic service all within I would say 15 years.
Uh now that's 1976. 50 years 50 years down the road, you know, uh EMS service and police department have gained personnel. The fire
department is still actually they're below what they were in 1976. The city of Betham has grown in leaps and bounds. uh we didn't have to respond less an extreme emergency to what was then the Betham Steel Complex which was
I don't know how many acres that is but it's a bunch uh now it's you have all kinds of entities operating out of what was the Bethlehem Steel property you have hotels you have businesses uh we
never had any of that back in 1976 six. Um, Lei University and Moravian University have expanded, the hospitals have expanded, we've had uh countless number of
uh apartment complexes all adding to uh the population of the city of Bethl. I believe when I got when in 1976 I think there was 72,000 they counted in in in the city uh that did not count all
the Lehi or Moravian students or occupants that were in the hospitals at that time. So to give you just a little perspective on it uh uh 1977 we had the Westcape Mall
fire. Uh I can still remember the headlines in one of the uh major fire journals, largest mall fire in the city of in the city of Betham fought with the least number of firefighters. And that's always been the case. I don't understand
why. 50 years later, I'm up here again. I guess I should say I was I was uh I went through the ranks all the way up to deputy commissioner and then back to assistant chief. I was a union president
for for two terms. I've been on this podium at least four times in my career asking for manpower. So I guess we have to ask ourselves why fire department hasund you no longer
have 116 guys. You have less than what you had 50 years ago and the city's grown by leaps and bounds. I do not understand it. And if people were made aware of the actual numbers, I don't know if they would be be as uh
complacent as as they are. My job as assistant chief was to send firefighters in the in the building knowing fair for well that we didn't meet NFPA standards. We didn't two men in two men backup. Uh
we we didn't do that. I can remember uh I was on engine six by myself. If I put a whole whole structure fire out by myself, you know, it's just crazy. I see my time's up, so I'll have to say thank you
and hopefully this shed some light on where we're at uh then and now. Thank you. >> Thank you, David. Uh the next person I have signed up is Kyle Dolan. Good afternoon everybody. My name is Kyle Bolton. I'm an Allentown resident,
but I'm a Bethlehem firefighter and the treasurer of the Bethl Firefighters Association. It's my first time at the podium and speaking to you guys, so I just wanted to introduce myself and uh share a brief story that would hopefully shine some light on the mentality that I and the people behind me share. um the
decisions that we make from the the moment we walk into the firehouse in the morning all the way up to the decisions we make here on the plaza um make the difference between life and death for the people in this community. Uh life and death can be measured in seconds in a fire, right? So the the thing that
kills people in fires is the products of combustion. So smoke, toxic gas, things of that nature. Um, and a mentor I had in another agency shared a story with me um that he called six seconds. And I'll spare you the story, but basically you can boil the difference between life and
death down for people in this community in one breath. Takes about 6 seconds. So from the time we walk in the firehouse in the morning to the way we tie our shoes, the way we put our gear on the truck to uh you know the minutes that you'll see here um in our response
times, they all make a difference. the decisions that we make in the firehouse and on the plaza make the difference between life and death for people. Um, so when I'm in the firehouse, I always ask myself, does the decision I'm making put seconds back on their clock or take them away? And I hope that you can ask yourselves the same question here as you
go through this data. Um, and anybody at home that's watching, I think everybody here um that's ever ridden a firetruck in the past, present, or future would push a wheelbarrow to your home to save you if it made the difference. But, uh, you know, we're here because we want to
do the right thing. We're passionate about our mission and, uh, hopefully moving forward, we can use this as a guide to build this fire department over the next few decades. That's all I got. Thank you. >> Thank you, Kyle. >> So, that's all I have signed up, but I'm going to open up the floor. Does anyone
in the general center wish to speak? Anyone to the right? Okay. All right, for this meeting we only have one item and it is going to be the fire department staffing study. Um I will say
this is a little bit atypical of a meeting. Um so for context it is the middle of the afternoon. Um but as we had spoken about President Jimenez, um this is information that you would like to present to council. Um we're heading into budget season. I don't want to wait
a whole year and see this in in January. So, um, thank you to Councilwoman Crany Smith for your flexibility. Um, so we're very excited to hear, uh, what you have to say. Um, given the time crunch that I put, there is no one from the administration here to speak, but they
have sent some memos, um, that will be read into the record, uh, at this time, and then we will open up the floor to your presentation and some Q&A from from council members. So, Tad, if you can read the memos. an October 29th, 2025 memorandum from Eric Evans, business
administrator. Chief Griffin, Deputy Bayer, and I are unable to attend the meeting called for today at 2 p.m. We are not sure when the meeting was planned between the IAFF and the public safety committee, but we only found out about it yesterday. The mayor's budget
address is tomorrow morning, so I am preparing for that presentation. Fire Chief Griffin and Deputy Chief Bearer are unable to attend as they are interviewing applicants for the next fire academy class to begin in January. As we have mentioned previously at council, also previously mentioned at
council, city of Bethlehem is conducting an objective comprehensive fire and EMS apparatus protection and efficiency study. Study has been planned and discussed with fire administration and the IAFF since early 2025. The RFP was drafted in the summer and
issued 7 weeks ago on September 9th. Responses are due this Friday at 12:00 p.m. From the point, we will review the submissions with the plan to bring the decision and funding memo to council in December and initiate the study in early 2026. This will be the first study on
the topic since 1995. With regards to the 2026 budget, consistent with what we have said publicly at council meetings, we have worked hard to find the necessary new revenue to propose sending 15 additional cadets to the fire academy in 2026 at a
cost of $300,000. We sent 15 in 2024 and 12 in 2025. Fire department's $15 million 2026 proposed budget includes a 3% salary increase, not including overtime. As part of the
collective bargained agreement, we also are proposing purchase of two new fire apparatuses in our 2026 capital budget at a cost of $3.8 million. When these two new apparatuses are purchased, we will have replaced seven of our eight
apparatuses since 2020 since 2020 at a cost of $8.6 million. For reference, we have attached a chart of our 2019 front line as compared to our 2026 purchased front line. Additional details on the fire department budget, including four
ambulances, a new fire command vehicle, new fire inspector vehicle, and new SCBA filling station, will be shared with the release of the proposed budget tomorrow. As always, please feel free to reach out with any questions that you may have. >> And that's the memo that was sent to uh
this committee. As uh Mr. Mr. Evans stated and I as I stated this was a very last minute meeting. Um it is an informative meeting only which is why we were able to schedule it uh so quickly. Um and the administration has expressed their uh
their irritation at me for not giving enough time and um that is that is my fault. I should have given enough time but again I wanted to hear this information and the committee could make it happen. So um we're we're moving on. Um, but now I'll recognize you. Uh,
President Jimenez. Um, if you can go ahead and go through your your slide and then, uh, Councilman Nancy Smith and I will have some some questions from there. >> Okay. Thank you. I'd like everybody to say I'm President Lou Jimenez, uh, local 735 president, also a lieutenant in the
fire department, and I'm a district service rep for the Pennsylvania Professional Firefighters Association. I want to thank everybody for being here today, everybody on YouTube live, uh, for for checking in. But today is is an important day. Um, I'd like to thank the
fire administration and the mayor's office for helping us get the data for this study, and I'd like to thank them for the relationships that we've built over the last two years. With that being said, I'd like to address something that was stated in the memo. As as we go
about talking about the future in the fire department, we we tend to want to always highlight the apparatus or things that are already in our bargaining agreement. Now, this fire department is built on
people, on our brothers and sisters. So, the most important part in a fire department is the firefighter. We can have all the equipment we want, but without the right amount of firefighters,
it does us no good. With that, I'm ready to do my presentation. Okay. This is the staffing and response study of the Betham Fire Department. This was done with in coordination with
the IAFF GIS department, local 735, and with the data provided by the city of Bethle. The purpose of the study is objective and it's data driven and it gives the assessment of deployment staffing and response and then there's benchmarks against the
NFPA 17 standards. The benchmarks for them will be talked about later and is also to align resources with the community risk and the incident demand. [Music] The outputs are coverage arrival
performance and staffing requirements. the current staffing snapshot. Typically, we have two firefighters and one officer on our fire engines. Currently have two firefighters on our ladder trucks. And we have two fire
engines that only run with two firefighters, which is below the NFPA 1710 minimum. We have four stations. Uh we used to have five and they cover our ever growing city. It's full of new resident
uh commercial and industrial areas. The problem that we're having is a high overlap between our first two districts during peak demand. And I I'll simplify that for you. Whereas the engine company in their particular district is responding to a call, they'll get
another call in the district which will bring another engine from across the city into that district leaving the other fire district uncovered. So that's something that we need to talk about as well. Here are the benchmarks.
Minimum crew size for NFPA7 standard is four on the engine and ladder companies. The first arriving unit once a once a 911 call is made four minutes at 90% reliability. That means the first
engine that gets on scene needs to get there in four minutes or less 90% of the time. An initial assignment for a low hazard, which would be your typical home is uh 8
minutes with 16 firefighters and one officer. That isn't being met either. We do not hit any of these benchmarks and that's alarming. Our call volume trends, our units responded
steadily. Uh it steadily increased. Uh we have 9,000 plus unit response unit responses. The unit responses are the individual apparatus that respond. In 2024, we had over 4,700 calls for service.
EMS calls and overlapping incidents drive our workload and a sustained upward trend widens the demand capacity gap which basically means we need more people. Travel time performance. 80% of
incidents meet the 4-minute travel time versus the 90% NFPA target. Longer travel times in specific districts are due to unit availability. Like I said, some engines are out of district and they have to respond from
across the city. And seconds matter for life. Just like Treasurer Dolan said, six seconds is a breath. They matter. for fire growth, cardiac arrests, and other different types of rescues, risk assessment.
We have a lot of older houses. We have a lot of seniors, disabled people, and poverty. Those are all factors that factor into these this particular type of situation. If you look in the most northern part of the city or we have our most elderly
people and uh disabled people. The industrial corridors and dense neighborhoods elevate hazards. If you look on the in uh on our city southside down past Hello Town Road, we have a lot of major industry there and warehouses
which are huge in excess of million square feet. Yet we do not have an engine that could get there in four minutes. Incident distribution by company. Engines carry the majority of the responses and ladder and utility units
remain active. Engine six and nine are among the busiest companies citywide for fire engines. But actually engine six is the busiest. Ladder 2 is the second busiest apparatus and utility one is the third busiest apparatus in the
city. Utility one is drove by one company officer and covers two districts in this city. The northwest which is engine 9 and engine six which covers center city. That's a big district and a lot of responsibility to be driving
yourself and covering two districts. The overlap in the back fill indicate system strain during peak periods. We get busy. We're all over the place. We we're not in our respective districts most of the time. We need to improve
this. I got a short video here on staffing and deployment. It's about 3 minutes. And if you can pay attention to the screen, no matter where the fire station is located, when the alarm sounds,
firefighters rush to answer the call. They know that every second counts for keeping a fire from spreading, minimizing property loss, and most of all, saving lives. But while the dedication of firefighters across the country may be the same, the
size of the crews they dispatch to a fire may vary significantly from station to station. Some with just two firefighters per engine, others with as many as five. So, how effective are differentiz crews at combating residential fires? To
address that critical question and others, a landmark study was conducted by a consortium of fire researchers led by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. >> This is the first time in a national study that we've been able to isolate
the effects of crew size, in this case, two persons, three persons, four persons, and five persons uh on an engine. uh also look at the effects of engine arrival time, the spacing between the uh subsequent engines and the
different fire growth rates. Using a two-story test house built near the NIS campus in Maryland, the researchers studied differentiz crews of firefighters in action against residential fires. Crews of two, three, four, and five firefighters were timed performing each
of 22 standard tasks for responding to a fire. The results, four and fiveperson crews completed all of the firefighting and rescue tasks on average 25 to 30% faster than two and threeperson crews respectively.
This finding could help communities better determine the number of fire stations and firefighters they should have at the ready. Currently, the way uh deployment decisions are made is that the uh fire chiefs and the um personnel uh the city, county managers or the
mayor, the people who have the resources um at the local level um get together and look at matching the resources that they have to the risks that they have. There is no technical basis for understanding if you make a change to
your deployment, you add or subtract people, um you open or close additional stations. There's no u validated data to support um understanding what the effects of those decisions are. >> Thanks to the efforts of the NIST
firefighter consortium, the data are now in hand and ready to make a difference. [Music] Okay. Reduce crew sizes uh delays fire attack search and rescue operations and
like like was said, four and five person crews can perform it 30% faster and more efficient. Fewer hands increase the risk to firefighters and to the public. Adequate staffing improves task
concurrency and scene safety. The more people we have on hand, the better we are at to combat the emergency. Now I have difficulty here. Go. All right. We're going to talk about two in two out coverage. This is the two in two out rule that was brought up
earlier in public comment. An interior attack requires four or more personnel on scene before entry. The current safe entry coverage is 26% of the city in four minutes. That is the top that is the top picture there
highlighted in green. So basically our south our southwest and our our northwest center city area is only covered. That's a quarter of the city that has two inout coverage. I'll give you an example. Out at our northwest fire station,
Engine 9, you have two personnel. If they get a fire in a far northwest corner, they're going to be by themselves for minutes and they're going to have to make a decision. That decision is to go in and save a life or mitigate a hazard or to wait till other
people get there. It takes seconds for fire to grow and they're left to make that decision for themselves. And at the end of the day, whatever decision they make is wrong because you need to wait for two other people, but you can't wait to save
somebody's life. These are the things that we deal with every day. And uh we need to really get a hold on it and move forward and progress forward. With NFPA minimum staffing, that goes up to 54%.
That's over half the city. and with a new fire station goes up to 63%. Low hazard assignments are low hazard assignments uh going to a structure fire at a at your average home currently is at 6%.
Would improve to 39% with NFPA staffing and 52% with a new station. That is something that is ve that is a very alarming rate there. Medium hazard assignments. These are garden style apartments, strip malls, uh
large apartment buildings, anything larger than 2,000 square feet. We don't hit the media. We we don't hit the we don't hit the standard 0% of the time with NF with falling within NFPA standards. We could hit that 29% of the
time. Our high hazard assignments are anything over 75 ft. Those big warehouses you see popping up all over the city and and huge apartment buildings. We do not have the necessary personnel to meet the high hazard requirements on
any portion and any portion of our city. Our mapping analysis, the GIS coverage maps. They highlight gaps and response time sentences. They propose a new station near Lynen
and East GP to improve our coverage. Now, that that came from the data. That didn't come from where we want to station. That came from the area that needs responses quicker. [Music]
Recommended actions. Staff all suppression apparatus to four personnel, three firefighters and an officer. Add one station Ber GIS model to improve the 4-minute coverage and allocate resources towards the
highest risk, highest demand areas. That there is a picture of a fire station at Linen and East Gap. I was kind of being having some wishful thinking there, but I had to fill it in. Here's the recommended staffing. Company
one Schweder on Fourth Street, we have engine one, engine three, ladder one, and utility 2. Currently, we run with two firefighters and an officer on engine one and two firefighters respectfully on engine three and ladder
one with utility 2 our shift boss driving himself. Now, think about that for a minute. If you're in charge of a huge operation and you're driving across the city, you're not able to read your notes. You're not
able to mentally prepare. It's unsafe. [Music] Staffing that is recommended would be three firefighters and an officer on both engines and the ladder and an office and the command officer on utility 2 with a firefighter as his aid.
That way he can better prepare for the incident. Engine five or Lincoln station on Eastn Avenue currently run with two firefighters and an officer. Recommended staffing is three and an officer again.
Engine 5 has a very big district. We used to have a fire station in Deubberry and that was closed in 2011. Since then, they've had to uh take up for that and they are
doing their best with what they have. Company six, our Memorial Fire Station, which is our busiest firehouse, which has the three busiest pieces of apparatus call volume. The engine and ladder are staffed with
two firefighters and the utility utility one is staffed with one company officer who also covers the Northwest District. A company officer should be in charge of the companies in his station. You should
not have to go to two districts and deal with different emergencies of the sort. [Music] And then they have a proposed station. They call it company 10. I'd like to call it company 7.
Would be at Lynon and East GP Street. And that would bring us another three firefighters and an officer. [Music] All this has been proven with data. This isn't something that we took into our office and said, "Hey, we're going to
come here and we're just going to give you some numbers to get what we want." We operate way below national standards despite the jobs that our guys do each and every day. The sacrifices they make, the times where they have to work overtime when they don't want to but
have to because we do not have enough people to staff for fire trucks. We need to invest in our stations and our staffing. It's essential. The data shows a need to a safer, faster, and more reliable response.
And also, we trust the NFPA. The city trusts NFPA standards for a lot of things, including our gear, other types of equipment. It's time that we do the same with our staffing, our most important piece of this department, which is our people. Without the
firefighters, all the equipment in the world will do nothing. Strategic benefits to increased staffing. We will get uh faster fire attack and improve performance on all emergency calls. Our injuries and property loss will be
reduced and we could prog progress through towards 1710 compliance. The safety of our community depends on being proactive, not reactive. This has been something that's been on
my mind for a a few years now, as we always seem to be running behind the eight-ball when it comes to staffing our firefighters. It's that our budget is more important than the safety of the citizens of this city and to our firefighters.
We go to work each and every day not knowing if we're going to go home. You've seen plenty of uh incidents that have happened. There was one in Fall River, Massachusetts. Nursing home was pretty bad. Their fire department was not staffed
properly. Guess what? A lot of lives were lost. You had firefighters coming from home and and and working without gear because they didn't have enough stuff. That was fixed. But it took that
emergency to get fixed. We do not need an emergency like that in this city. I don't want to see any of us hurt or die because we don't have enough people.
Our general president, Ed Kelly, always says it always starts in front of a church where we sit here and realize the sacrifices that we make. It's time that our administration sees the sacrifices we make and can put
themselves in our shoes and see what we experience every day to take our word for what's going on. We are the subject matter experts. Okay? Our job should not just be run by a budget to take into consideration the safety of
our residents because they're our number one priority. collaboration and funding. As president, I am grateful for the collaboration we've had with the mayor's office and with fire administration, but we need to make that better. We need to
advance it and help to plan and pursue the safer grant, which we've asked for the city to apply for for years and have always been told we cannot apply. We also need to look forward more into uh state grants and we're headed in that
direction with state grants. But the safer grant is pertinent to getting more people on the street. Let's talk about a relief factor and a vacancy factor. When we hear in budget meetings, we talk about we talk about relief factors,
vacancy factors, and and the fact of the matter is is it's just a budgetary term. Right now, our firefighters are working excessive overtime in order to keep the staffing where it's at.
That is not something that can continue. Our members are going to get tired. Our members are going to get hurt. Our members may not come back to work. We've had a lot of retirements, a lot of retirements due to many things. And one of those factors is
they're tired. You know, um the vacancy factors been used to justify budgeting overtime rather than hiring the additional personnel. You know, I understand we have to be fiscally responsible in the city. I do I do
realize that we cannot have 35 people per shift in two weeks. It's not going to happen. But we need to move in the right direction. And the collaboration just doesn't have to be between the fire administration and the union or the fire
administration and the mayor. It needs to be among everybody. human resources, business manager, city council, we need to collaborate. This isn't an us versus them. This is a
safety issue. We need to We all took an oath to protect our citizens. So, let's live up to that oath and let's collaborate and figure this out. [Music] With that, I want to thank everybody who
helped with this. our city administration, um, retired chief Mike Reich, Deputy Chief Bearer, Chief Griffin, Mayor, the IFFGIS Division, and my
executive board. as I wouldn't be standing up here today without the hard work of them. We all share one goal and that's to be safer as firefighters, having a safe community and having a stronger fire service altogether.
That concludes my presentation. I do have I do have the actual study with interactive maps if anybody has any questions regarding that as well. And that's all the presentation. I'm not turning to anyone else.
>> All right. Um, since it's just us, Councilwoman Smith, do you have any you have any questions? And you know, if I ask questions and you think of something, you know, we'll >> Okay, sounds good. >> Um, well, thank you. Thank you everyone for for coming and for this valuable
info. Um, I was wondering, Lou, were you did you email the actual study or could you email the actual study? You said you have the actual study with the data. >> I did send I sent you all a link. >> Okay. >> It's actually on online. >> Okay. >> You click the link and you can go
through the study. >> Great. Okay. I couldn't get in my email. Great. I just had a couple questions to clarify. Can you clarify again the overlap issue like explain in you know an example of what what happens with that overlap issue when uh one you know one station is out and
then there's another call. >> I'll give you an example. So, we have a you would have an emergency in the northwest >> where you would have engine 9 go out and since engine 9 does not have an officer,
utility one would respond from company 6. Memorial gets an emergency. Engine ladder goes. They don't have an officer. a whole other engine company has to get pulled to another side of the city in
order to have that coverage to have that incident commander which leaves that district unprotected. >> So, it's a matter of that there's not an officer available in within one district and they have to pull an officer from another district, but you're also
sending the firefighters from the other district. >> Correct. The firefighters go with the officer. >> The officer >> on on the other engines. Yes. >> Okay. Okay. >> It could also be with with fire engines, too. >> Fire engines go out of district, that leaves the district unprotected.
>> Okay. All right. Thank you. That helps. Um, the call volume. Okay. Can you just give a little more info on the call volume, like the increase in the call volume? It says here from 21 to 24, 9,000 plus.
Well, no, 9,000 plus calls in 2024. So, have you are are you saying there's definitely been an increase in call volumes between 20 2021 and 2024? >> Let me clarify that that that number of 9,000 is actual responses by individual
apparatus. The call volume for 2024 was around 4,700. >> Okay. >> And it has it has increased by almost 20 29%. between like last year or between the last three years.
>> The whole period >> for those three years. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, it's increased 29%. >> Okay. And what about the number of fires or I mean you have the calls but actual fires. Has there been an increase in number of fires in that three-year period? Do you know it seems it? But
>> just looking at it, I would I would assume yes, but I would have to look at the CAD data to to verify that. I give you a defin. >> That would be that would be something more for for our chief and deputy chief. >> All right. I mean, it seems like there's been more fires lately, but again, it would be nice to have the exact data.
Um, okay. What's the other one? And I was going to ask you about a new station, how vital that is, but apparently it is really vital based on the data from the study. >> Correct. Originally, we were thinking before the study started that the
station was going to be uh recommended on the south side, like somewhere near Fourth and Lynn, >> right? >> However, due to the due due to the CAD data and the calls for service, the most strategic place to put it would be near >> Lyndon and East Gap.
>> Okay. >> I I would think I would I would think that's because of the loss of Dubberry, >> right? Okay. But it's still essential to have a station on the southside near Lyn Avenue to respond. That area is growing back there. Old Forge, you know,
you got the industrial area back there. Everything's popping up. We have a lot of multi-occupancy apartment buildings coming up and our population hasn't increased. Our official number of population hasn't increased. I find that surprising. But
all these buildings come up and we're still where we're at from 50 years ago as I've learned today. >> Okay. And I don't know if you'll know this, but you talked about the difference in the medium and the high hazard the buildings. Um do you know is
there data on has there been an increase in medium and high hazard, you know, buildings? I'm assuming because it's just been so much development in those three years if we've had a significant increase in those type of buildings because those are the ones that are really significant with the um
the time and the efficiency. >> I couldn't give you a definitive answer on that. We would have to look at the at the data for that more closely. >> Okay. All right. I'm I'm assuming so just because of the number of warehouses and apartments that have been coming up.
Right. And then for slide 17, um, because it's pretty like how many what are you what are you saying that we need firefighter wise per shift at total >> the total number
>> compare what we have now and what we need to meet these. >> I believe they're calling for >> guidelines, rigs, whatever. >> About 31 personnel. >> 31 >> first shift. Yeah. And how many do we have now per shift? >> We work
>> 20. >> We we work with 18. >> It's 18 now. >> Yes. >> 31. And we're at 18. Okay. >> Let me add that number up for you so I know it's it's correct for >> Okay. And I know this is a tough one because I know we brought it up at the
last council meeting and I I I felt like the administration felt like we're sending more to the academy next year, so we're really going to be more on target. But the one thing that is really significant is the number of retirees. And um do you have any idea what we're looking at in the the next year? And
like how soon do you know if an a firefighter is going to retire like within a month, six months? >> A firefighter with with his time eligible to retire could could walk in today and retire tomorrow. >> It's it's just a note, >> right? Do you have any that we have that are
eligible to retire that you anticipate? You know, do you have any idea guesstimate for next year what we're looking at for retirement? >> Those that are in the drop program that should be I believe we're looking at about four or five,
but others are unknown. They they can they can walk in any time and retire. >> Do you know how many are eligible will be eligible next year to retire or can you find that out? should be around 30 between 30 and 35. >> So they would be eligible. They'll have
the time in to do it. Okay. >> Correct. >> Okay. [Applause] >> Um and I did ask about the overtime too at the last meeting. Um so you're saying it's excessive. Like can you expand on the overtime as far as you know how how
excessive is it at this point? Well, at this time we're we're utilizing overtime to fulfill the 18 >> and a lot of firefighters are are working and now we're coming into we're coming into a season where firefighters are
being mandated to work overtime. >> Um basically against their will. Um and that is something that could be solved with extra personnel. the extra personnel that we need, the less overtime that we'll work.
>> You know, it's it's an investment. You know, sometimes I I believe it's looked at as a detriment to add personnel, but it's actual investment in our community. It's an investment in our own people, the well-being of our firefighters. It depends on it. You know, we don't we
don't want a department full of people that are overworked, >> right? Yeah. And then I I know I say this for especially the emergency responder departments like I cons I'm concerned about the um the risk of getting injured and being tired and
burnout, you know, with overtime. It's it's a real concern. >> It's definitely a real concern and it's a concern off the bat with working with less people. Uh, for instance, a firefighter in Bethlehem does could do four or five different tasks at a fire scene, whereas a
firefighter in Philadelphia only does one and never does one because they have enough people. >> Okay. And so if we and um if we're looking at sending 15 cadets next year
and we have the 12, do the 12 that we sent this year, are they included in the in the um 18 that we have per shift or how how many total firefighters do we have? Let's put it that way. >> Right now we have if we're talking budgetary, it would be 101.
>> Okay. And does that include the 12 that went to the academy this year? >> That includes eight of those that went to the academy. >> Okay. >> Um >> Right. Because there were some that didn't. >> There's four currently in the fire academy. >> Okay. That's four. And then there's
supposed to be 15 next year going. Right. >> Correct. >> All right. So we'll be up to 120. And And how many should we have? I think I have everything. >> I think you have 104. 10 104. Okay.
Okay. All right. Well, thank you. I um I think that answers my questions. I'll look at the data, but um you know, I probably shouldn't say this, but I will. I it it reminds me of I think I totally agree with you about the apparatus and you know the equipment because it I'm hearing a lot of people
complaining and I'm I saw it myself with an appointment this morning where healthc care is building buildings and doing all these other things and they don't have the people and it's a real issue and I think it's sort of you know similar in this case that you know the apparatus is important but we don't have
the people to operate it >> and if I'm not mistaken there are two different budgets we're talking capital budget budget and operational budget. >> So, we're talking about things that are on the capital budget and trying to mask what's on the operational budget. We need to we need people that comes from
the operational budget. Maybe that needs to be considered in order to move in the right direction, >> right? And I think we were fortunate because of the co money that we were able to use some of that money for apparatus. So, you know, we were lucky that we're able to do that, but um we definitely need the people to operate
the apparatus. So, thanks so much. This was really um really good information and I'll look at it further. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, I'm done with my questions. Okay. >> All right. Uh I'm going to ask questions a little bit all over the place because I'm just going to ask them as they come.
>> Um you did talk about the difference between capital and operational. Um you've asked for capital and operational, i.e. firefighters, but also a potential additional firehouse. Um, do you know what kind of budgetary ask
you're asking for when it comes to capital? >> That I that I could not answer. >> I'm basically giving you the data that was presented to us. >> Okay. Um, is that the same for uh our operational budget as well? Do you know
the figure of how much this would increase the budget by? >> I cannot give you that answer >> always. Um just just curious because I I agree with you like our budget isn't a restriction but we don't operate a volunteer uh fire department and we need to be able to >> correct
>> pay the fire department. It's um >> and I think I think working together >> Yeah. >> I think the local does realize that this cannot happen overnight. >> Yeah. >> And that it would take a gradual >> gradual overtime to get to where we need to be. And I think if we meet in the middle of the road we could we could solve that.
>> Yeah. which is why I think that this was the appropriate time to have the meeting because we are heading into a budget season. Obviously >> the 30th is is not a time to come with a comprehensive like we want 37 firefighters. Um >> looking forward to tomorrow's budget >> but we will be looking at our budget and
we don't look at the budget in a year. Um we look at the budget like what's coming up. So this is the appropriate time to look at this information. Um there were other questions I had because we've we've brought up warehouses and structural fires. So, I'm not going to ask you how to fight a fire. You know,
you guys obviously are the subject matter experts in this. Um, but how does the NFPA define a high-rise? Like, what is what's considered a high-rise >> to be over five stories? >> Is there a foot like >> Yeah. 75 ft the lowest access point?
>> All right. I know we don't have a lot of that within our denser like downtown districts because of height restrictions other than places like um the Rooney building which predates Sure. things. Um, Wind Creek. Uh, I don't I don't know
the height of like the dream, the void that's outside of are are I guess I'm I'm thinking when we when we're talking about an increase in highrises, are we talking about what hasn't been built yet? Because I think we only have about like five or six highrises.
>> Is there a concern about >> I'm speaking to the multi- occupancy apartment buildings? >> Okay. Um, one thing you need to take into consideration, u, let's throw Marvine Village. They're going to redo Marvine. >> Yeah. >> Right now, they're they're they're brick
homes. >> Yeah. >> They're they're going to build these homes. >> They're going to go up quick and they're going to burn faster than any home could ever do. >> In Marvin Village, >> the construction is cheaper. They don't build them like they used to. Their construction type is different. And
that's going to that's going to increase call volume as well. >> Okay. All right. And I always quantify this because this is a conversation. It's just me >> trying to find information. I want to make sure that we're making good decisions. And uh so when it comes to these newer builds,
don't they offer some kind of different type of like like internal firefighting like sprinkler systems or something that would make it a little >> there in in in some buildings there are they are uh stand piped where we can access water from from the stairwell. Uh
they are sprinklered but sprinklers contain fires. >> Sprinklers do not put out fires. So, >> is that the same with warehousing? Like, how actively do you fight warehouse fires or is it just you let the baby burn and >> Well, that would all depend on the
situation, you know. Um, >> but they they are sprinkler too, but like I said, it's they contain fires. They do not they do not put out fires. >> Okay. All right. And again, these are kind of points of curiosity, not necessarily related to
the study, just things that I'm thinking about while we're while we're going through these things. Um, there was something else I wanted to ask regarding um I think the thing we we constantly dance around is like this idea of minimum manning. Um, and minimum manning
is something that, you know, just from previous conversations we've had and curiosity on my part, that's something that kind of went away in 2011. Um, was that like considered a loss in arbitration because like it there was
minimum manning at one point and then it went away and you've been able to to operate. So I just can you kind of talk me through your thought on that? >> Our minimum manning that we lost is is a loss >> to the local and to the community. Uh we
had we had had a 22 minimum manning um >> prior to 2012 and uh we were awarded in arbitration that we would work with 18 sometimes dropping to 17 that that is
a quote that was in the award. Um, so we're operating with less people and taking into consideration, I'm going to go back a few years. We didn't hire for about four years, >> five years. And we had a fire chief that sat here and said he didn't need more people,
>> which is felonious if you ask me, but um, yeah. So, >> so are we operating with the like, okay, we already asked that, we answered that question. All right. So, the the minimum Ann Manning was a loss. I'm contextualizing the time 2011 was another financial hit for the city. um
things were that financial crisis of 2008 and I'm thinking about like how uh what's happening economically affects you know so as the city does better then we should be like restaffing to these to these >> correct our city should prosper you know
as our city prospers our department should grow >> not only our department of police department I know they're having staffing issues too but the more the more occupancies the more the more buildings we put up, the more people that come in to visit and go to shows,
the more they need protection. And we're here. We're telling you this data doesn't lie. This is something that we didn't come up with. We we need to work together to solve this. >> Oh, can you talk to me about how you gathered the data a little bit? Uh, I know you talked about it briefly, but
can you walk me through like >> in May of 2024, um, myself and a couple executive board members were >> talking about our staffing and how we need to how we need to improve it. And, you know, just coming into city hall and
and coming into council meetings, you know, walking in without any data or knowledge and just saying we need more people and getting asked why, we needed to get facts. So the IFFF offers this GIS study >> and it it's a long process.
So uh talked to our district vice president who who authorized the GIS study. I then talked to this is going a couple months. Uh I did talk to then retired Chief Reich and Deputy Chief Bayer and put the cards out there and
said, "Hey, want to do this study? We're willing to share it with the city in order for us to move forward. uh we just need data over the last few years. They were more than willing to help me out. Took a few months between them and and it to figure it out to get the right
data. We got the data and submitted it to the IFFF which over the course of around 11 months, got the got the staffing study done. The total turnaround was about 18 months. So >> did did the city itself pay for this or did the the union pay for the paid
>> for by our union by the Okay. Um, right. >> What what I would say to this too is we have a we have a RFP for an efficiency study. >> Yes, you do. >> Which uh a lot of the items in the in the efficiency study don't meet the
things that we need >> to determine what type of manning we need. >> It seems to be more of a study to kind of maintain the status quo. And if the study was done like our study is
done, that study would see similar numbers as we had. Data doesn't lie. >> No, data does. Times will lie. Um Oh, there was a good book about that, but that's actually called Mine with Statistics, so probably not relevant to
this conversation. Um, okay. I'm thinking so when it comes to this this upcoming study that you're talking about. Granted, I'm not going to turn down any type of data. I'm obviously going to listen to to the study that is being
done. Um I have looked it's not often that we have a public safety meeting or even a a c like a council meeting where we have external data presented that isn't a city funded kind of thing. um to
try and maintain uh no one being biased. But I think it could be said either way. If the the union funds it, you can say it's biased one way, the city funds it, you can say it's biased another way. But I think that if we hear all of the data, we can kind of >> see some kind of interesting things rise to the top and really pinpoint
>> what we what we might be looking at. Uh I to the point like we do invest heavily in apparatus. Um and we have invested heavily in apparatus. It's been really good to see over the past couple of years that kind of turnaround. When we first got on when I first got on council
four years ago, it was a very aged fleet, you know, as a result of these financial ups and downs within like the country. When things bottom out, you can't buy anything. So, we've mainly like we've done good with the apparatus and you're saying that we're not doing good with personnel. Um, when it does
come to the personnel that we do have, how is the mental health of our guys? Well, um, as you know, a few years back, we did a we did a survey. Yeah. >> And, uh, a lot of our personnel were struggling. >> How are they doing now? Because I
remember that study. That was a very pointed. >> Well, we've we've lost a lot of personnel. >> Um, we've got a lot of new personnel. We've got about 32 new personnel. So, that's fresh. They're new in the fire service. They're eager. They're willing. Um, but I would say that our that our
general mental health is kind of stagnant, kind of staying where it's at. >> Um, when it comes to uh multiple emergencies at one time, how often how often is it that you will see like multiple emergencies, not just multiple
callouts, like multiple like structural fires at the same time? >> Structural fires at the same time. >> Yeah. Well, when we're talking about fires, it doesn't happen a whole lot. Yeah. >> But different types of emergencies, it happens all the time. >> So, you have a lot of
>> Correct. >> Can you talk me through 510 flats? Because 510 flats happen. You don't have to give me the the playbyplay, but to me it was like the fire departments knocked it out of the park. Um, but that doesn't
feel like it's indicative of what you're asking. My interpretation of the five turn 510 flats wouldn't be wouldn't be as accurate as talking to the incident commander >> about it um and dealing with the stresses that he dealt with, >> you know, trying to get apparatus and
and and personnel to the scene. Um but my interpretation of it is we got there and we started doing what we needed to do, but had that been 2 in the morning, >> Yeah. It would have been a total total total out different outcome, you know.
>> Why would that be the case? Is it just Why would that be the case? >> Just, you know, people noticing the fire and and things like that because I from what I've understood, it was called in. >> Yeah. >> Because it was seen. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> also had a lot of external support. Is that external support harder to come by
at night or like >> that external support is hard to come by to begin with? Correct. You you got to look at the numbers and while very vital, our volunteer uh fire service is struggling nationwide. I
mean, we've we've gone to a very limited number of volunteers and they also have their own areas that they need to cover, too. We're grateful that they came in to assist us, but it it it's not going to happen all the time. >> Okay. >> All right.
Before I wrap up, do you have any additional questions or anything? Sorry. Before I wrap up, did you have any additional questions or anything? >> Um, well, no, just piggybacking off that. Um, do you often have other um I know there's a word for it, other fire companies come in to assist or or need
to, you know, volunteer or other mutual aid. That's it. >> Mutual aid. We have we have uh Allentown Fire Department, >> Eastston Fire Department, Betham Township U, actually Nancy Run. Yeah. comes in for their air truck for
specialized equipment and then in bigger bigger events like 510 flats. >> Right. So for that Yeah. You you had all the mutual aid for that fire obviously. >> Correct. >> Okay. And you I don't know. I mean I can I'll address this but the I guess I'm trying
to get a feel for also the study that is going to be done by the city. It sounds like they're looking more at like apparatus efficiency, but you're saying you don't think it's really going to include I don't know if you know anything about it, staffing. And I can ask that
question of those that are doing it. I'm just wondering >> a lot of the points that >> why it's being done. A lot of the points that we would ask of the study like uh part of the study we we would like to have members of of each rank interviewed and
talked to about about the >> the atmosphere of the fire department, things of that nature. Stuff like that's not being hit. >> Um >> seem to want to be focusing more on like, you know, who's off and who's not and and the classic sick time >> argument that we've had here for
decades. And um I I' I'd like to say it publicly there is no sick leave abuse. Um but yeah. >> Okay. But so do you so this study it says that it's been
discussed with administration and the union. I guess I'm trying to get a feel for what's the difference going to be in this study that the city's doing and the study that the that you did. I couldn't tell you that. I mean, >> yeah, that the parameters,
>> you feel that this study is necessary? I I mean, I don't want to put you on >> any study any study to possibly improve the fire department is ne is necessary and needed. >> Um, I just don't I just don't know how
how how uh good that study is going to be. I mean, the turnaround they want the turnaround to be around 6 months. It took 18 months for us to get our data >> right. It's been like 30 years since they did it. I just I just don't want to see us doing repetitive studies, you
know, and and spending money on unnecessary. >> Correct. That study is also that's going to go into apparatus and things of that nature. We did not cover apparatus in our study. All we're concerned about is is our staffing. >> Okay. There it said it was the last time it
was done is 1995. >> Yeah, >> on this this the one that the city's doing is going to be on apparatus protection efficiency study and it's going to be fire and EMS. >> The parameters of that study was to have
the current funding levels stay the same. In other words, there was when they looked at the at the city They didn't look at additional funding. They looked at the fire requirement and how they can maintain what they've had. And I said this that
study we lost two engine companies. >> Yeah, it was right around the closing of the steel too. So it was a bottoming out >> companies and we lost firefighters. >> Yes. 95 is right around the bottoming out of the steel too. So there was it was an economic hit to the city. So it seems like there's an economic hit to the city at different numbers. An economic hit to the city at different
numbers. around >> the steel post. Yeah. >> Yeah. That they >> steal property now. >> It's very different. >> Yeah, it is. >> Right. >> We're responsible for it. >> Right. All right. Yeah, I I hear you.
Okay. Thank you. I don't think I have any more. I'll I'll reach out after I look at the data more, you know. >> Okay. Like I said, if you if you use the link, it all the maps are interactive. Okay. >> Everything's broken down by years. >> Great. >> We could we'll walk you through it. Okay. All right. Well, I I would like to
say that I think that this is a very proactive step because like just looking historically at data, 2011 was a time where we lost some things. 2011 um the city's population was 75,000. Um 2020 the city's population was
roughly 75,000 as well. I don't believe you can say that about Bethlehem now. Um and the the state of the financial state of the city is is relatively strong. Um, you don't stay strong without being responsible. And that that's what this is. We're trying to be responsible here.
Um, one of my favorite websites is Strong Towns. If if you're ever bored and want to look up munic municipal government, Strong Towns is an amazing website and there's this graph that they have. I love it. It's like these three circles and one is highquality city services, one is low taxes, and one is
high density. Like, and it's it's this kind of joke with strong towns that you can't make all three of those meet. there's sacrifices that are being made. Um I don't believe that the sacrifices should be made out of public safety obviously. Um so I think that when we're looking at our budget holistically and
we're looking at our city services, we're looking at um the density of the city and we're looking at how do we keep our taxes manageable, I think the flex has to be somewhere. And I again I don't think it's city services where the flex should be. So that leaves us taxes and
leaves us density. Um, and if we choose density, obviously that makes public safety even more important because that's more people within a a small city. >> Um, so like thank you for coming out. Thanks for having this conversation with us.
Um, I will once again apologize for the last minute nature of it. Uh, the administration absolutely wanted to be here. Uh, it's just the budget meeting is tomorrow. Um so I again I apologize for that but I felt like this was um necessary and it was a conversation that
we should have absolutely especially right around the budget season so we could start thinking about what it looks like if we are to grow what it looks like to grow in a responsible um manner keeping the fact that we're talking about personnel not equipment. Um so is
there anything else you guys need to talk us about? No, I just um numerous times while Lou was answering your questions, there's a lot of things that I wanted to say, but I'll short it up and say that like there's a lot of things that were missed in this presentation. >> Um we didn't have the time that we would
have liked to have prepared. There's a lot of data um in the study link, particularly about uh company 7 and the losses around that time period of 2011 um and either reopening company 7 or building a station on the southside. There's there's so much that we didn't
get an opportunity to cover here. Um, and I don't know what our availability is like, but we'd be happy to meet with you and go over the nitty-gritty of all the information the IF provided us. >> Yeah. And like I I feel like um I hope this is understood. I definitely have an open door policy. I feel like other
people on council also have an open door um policy and I I hope you understand how much we are here uh to listen. This is very much an atypical um meeting, not something that we tend to uh do. Uh but
it's still to me it felt like especially given 510 flats, given the concerns that we've had, there's been a lot of conversation around our fire department over the past four years. Um I'm happy to know that relationships continue to improve and to continue to progress. It's all I've heard anytime I've
contacted the administration is that they are in constant communication with you all and it is a good relationship and that is that's you know it's heartening to hear considering um things have felt strained lately. So it's it's not to confine the whole entire conversation to this one room right now.
It it is although I've tried to keep this a little bit informal. There's still a gavl up here. It's relatively formal. Um and I'm more than happy to hear anything as I'm sure the other members of the public safety committee are happy to hear anything. Um as well as council members. So please do not think that this is an end of a
conversation. It was just the start of a of a conversation and for your ability to to present the data to us. this the uh the survey is is very interactive >> and there is a lot of data that was not covered. We could be here for hours. Um but
>> you can't you have to work. >> I know uh but uh you know you I did provide you the link a few weeks ago. >> Please take the time to to go through it if you have any questions. We're here. And and one other thing I just want to
let you know that this study was done and this is this is a testament to how we've progressed forward in our relationships with the administration and the mayor. Um this type of study would not have come forward into a public safety committee meeting five years ago. >> Yeah.
>> You know so we've made a lot of strides and in order to progress we have to have those good relationships. So I just want to let you know and I thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you all for coming. >> Thank you for coming. Um, and I please express to everyone uh our our deepest
gratitude for keeping um the city safe, really our first responders within the city of Bethlehem. If I wish budgets weren't a thing, you would have all the firehouses, the police would have a precinct. It would be wonderful. Um I think with with time and concerted like investment within our city, we can get
to a place where we have very robust um city services and a fire department and a police department that feels genuinely appreciated. Um so for legal purposes again all matters discussed here were informative only. This was anformational meeting. Um and this meeting is
adjourned. Thank you all. >> Thank you Grace. appreciation.