Scott. >> Yeah. >> And for DRA, I'm showing Trish, Greg, and Jim. And from Maui, I see Christina. And I'm wondering if Vivian, is she the 860 number? >> That is not Vivian.
>> Not Vivian. Okay. >> That may be that might be Brad, our engineer. Um. >> Oh, yeah. Good call. Drag Park. >> Okay. Well, that's good enough to start.
We are um um say call to order. Um I will make a note that Mary rescended her resignation. So, we appreciate her continuing on um with this project committee to make sure that's in the records. Thanks, Mary.
>> Thank you. >> All right. Moving on. >> I am Bill. I twisted my arm. >> Welcome back. >> Thanks, Jill. >> All right, I'll turn it over to Christina with the OPM report. >> Um, before Christina starts, would it be helpful if whoever is not talking mute
so we don't have like background noise? That might be helpful. >> It's probably me draining. >> Sure thing. Let me um just try to share my screen here. All right. So, good evening everybody.
Nice to see everybody virtually. Um, we got a kind of short and sweet agenda today. There's just one quick item on our OPM report and then we're hoping to give the majority of time to the design team because there is a vote today for the building systems. Um, so with that
said, our OPM report because we spoke with you all last week, we don't have to go over kind of schedule and budget and all that. There was just um our Collier's project leader monthly invoice that we have on the table to vote for tonight totaling 12,990.
>> All right. Would anyone like to make a motion to approve the $12,990 um invoice? So moved. >> Sorry, Carrie. And is there a second? >> Second, Jane.
>> Second by Jane. And we will do roll call. Uh Tara, yes. Jane, >> yes. >> Jen, >> yes. >> Jill PG, >> yes. >> Jill Fis,
>> yes. >> Kristen, >> yes. Mike, >> yes. >> Mary, >> yes. >> Jeff, >> yes. >> Peter, >> yes.
>> Sarah, >> yes. >> And Scott, >> yes. >> Okay, motion is approved to pay those invoices. >> All right, >> Tara. >> Oh, hi, Chuck. >> Hi. Just want to let you know I'm here.
>> Thank you. add you to the list. >> Do you um want to make you approve those um in the invoice? >> Thank you. >> Great. All right. So, I'll turn it over to the DRA team for their designer report.
>> So, we have a a real short real short uh followup. Um last we met, we talked about two different approaches to um powering up this building. The um one is the air source, the central plant. This
is um pretty much the base starting point nowadays for buildings of this type. Um you see the pros, lower first cost, smaller mechanical room, some of the equipment goes on the roof or grade. Um some of the negatives, it usually
needs additional electric resistance heating to uh keep temperature up on the coldest days and less overall efficiency. So we talked about this one and we compared it to our next slide which is ground source heat pumps or
geothermal and pros here high energy efficiency. It can maintain the necessary temperature even on the coldest days. Um the cons are an increased first cost. Um larger
mechanical room and it requires some sight space. And as you'll may recall from last week's talk, um the wells would fit under the parking lot to the west of the new building. And we've been designing for the larger mechanical room
from the uh from the the concept or from the beginning. And these this is a closed loop system, so it doesn't doesn't exchange water. It runs down through the well and back up and into the building and has a uniform series of
pumps so it's easier to keep a shelf stock if a pump goes down and um fairly easy to keep moving. Um the question that we left off on last time was cost and we spent the intervening week if you
jump to the next slide Christina. Um refining our cost a little bit in light of some of the uh grants that may be available to us. So the first line is heat uh airsource heat pumps. It's 151,000 square feet. Takes hit or miss
400 tons of heating and cooling. The estimated first cost on the heat so air source heat pumps about 17 million. Um the estimated cost after a 58% reimbursement from MSBA is about 7 million to the town and we could pick up
about $430,000 from the mass save. So we do qualify for some money under the mass save. And since that's our baseline, we're saying estimated energy savings are zero. And the additional tax credit, this is from
the inflation reduction act, which is um Vivian had mentioned it at last week's meeting, and we're working on getting a a better handle on how much of this building may um may qualify for that. But in this case, for the airsource heat pumps, there is no qualification for
that grant. So our second line is geothermal. It's 151 tons still or 400 tons, 151,000 square ft. Our first cost goes up by about $3 million to about 20.2 million is the estimated cost. The
cost to the town at this point is about 8.5. So it's aboutund $1.3 million more for geothermal than for the air source as a first cost. We then look at the mass
save incentive total and it comes up to aboutund 1.6 almost $1.7 million. So it it displaces the 1.3 upfront cost to the tune positive of about $400,000
and then it picks up about $36,000 a year savings in energy usage. So, we're about 400,000 to the good when we start and pick up about $36,000 a year. Um, of that 1.689, there's about
1.5 million that would enerure to the district at the end of construction. So, when you open the building up, and then 189,000 at the one-year post occupancy um inspection. And then that last column is the
inflation reduction act. That takes a little while to get to. You have to run the building for a year and then start to um work through how efficient the building is and do the audit of materials that were used. And that ranges for a building of this size
anywhere from 6 to 30%. So we're saying on the low end about two 293,000 and at the high end about 1.4 million and that would enerve back to the district. Um neither none of the grants across here
would diminish the MSBA participation that that was changed by MSBA and by most of the states in New England to encourage the um the ground source heat pumps. Um, so we are looking for
some concurrence and a vote to go with either the geothermal or the air source heat pumps knowing that geothermal ends up being a positive for the district both on first cost and on operating costs as you move through. Um, if
there's any really technical questions, Brad Park is the lead principal from CES. he is driving so he would be guessing at what we're showing at the screen. Um, but this is really just to set a direction for us so that when we get to the SD set goes in, we know what
we're telling the estimators. >> So, this is Mary. I have one question, Greg. First of all, you read my mind because I've done many MSBA projects where they take their share back of the Enra rebate. Um, so that's good. came. >> I did one project.
>> I did one project with a heat with a geothermal well during a drought needed backup for the AC. That was about 10 years ago. >> Yeah. It should not be an issue on a closed loop system. You're there, right?
>> Correct, Greg. That would only be an issue on an openloop system. And we're not proposing open loop here. Everybody get >> understood. >> Okay. >> Does anyone else have any questions or comments?
>> Uh, yes. This is Jeff Silverstein. Um I unfortunately wasn't at the last meeting, so some of these questions may have been answered previously, but I'll go ahead with them. And um uh the $36,000 uh annual savings, that's I'm assuming
compared with the um with the regular uh heat pump. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, do we have any idea what our baseline is right now? like how much it would how much would that save us compared with our building with our
current building on an annual basis? >> That is information that we're working through with our energy consultant and with Brad's folks. >> Okay. And then um are there uh do you
have a good feeling for the com if you did the comparison uh regarding maintenance costs for each of these systems? Are there any big advantages or disadvantages either in terms of um long-term maintenance issues?
>> Craig, I can answer that. Uh generally speaking, there's not a a significant difference between the two. Uh for geothermal, the one one pro would be that a lot of the equipment then comes indoors. Uh because instead of needing
to reject that heat to the air, you're injecting it to the to the water which is piped into the ground. Um some of that equipment goes indoors which you know can improve the lifespan of it. The only real added maintenance associated with a geothermal system is there's an extra set of pumps to circulate that
water through the ground. But pumps in general don't require a tremendous amount of maintenance. there's no there's not a lot of frequent maintenance required with those. We don't really ever see that as a meteor deal. So, generally speaking, uh the remainder of the HBD system installed throughout the balance of the
building is really unaffected between the two systems. So, really just talking about what generates, you know, kind of the source of energy, so to speak. Um and there's not a not a real significant difference between the two.
>> Okay. And um do um both of these systems um have we built um electrical backup into the plan for regardless of of which system we were to
choose. Um do we have some sort of an electrical backup system that goes into play if the power is interrupted? >> Yes. The building would have a generator. Um, >> if that's what you're asking, then yes.
Yes. >> Yes. I that's Yeah, that that would be my question. I'm I'm I'm wondering whether um instead of a generator, you could use a battery that would be p that would be powered by solar panels on the roof or
something instead of, you know, instead of a regular generator that's powered by propane or whatever. It it's it's possible. Um we have done a little bit of that. Um we've done that for a couple smaller projects. We
haven't done anything on the scale of a of a new high school. Um it's just a it does add some level of complexity to the system and some additional first cost to purchase the solar panel. Um and also the battery the batteries are actually
pretty expensive. um and for a building of this size take up a prettyizable area. They're talking about kind of like two shipping containers worth of area for for batteries. Um >> just scaling up what we're for for a couple smaller buildings.
>> Um so it it is it is uh plausible, but there's some some additional things iron out there. >> Yeah. I'm just wondering what you what you might design for in a backup system. Are you designing for like a a week? Um
or are you designing I just don't know. And so I I know that you have a s you have a you have a a flat route that's um that's that would be optimal for any kind of a solar system. But I don't know
whether the costs would would um would be prohibitive. I mean, if you designed for um solar batteries to handle a 7-day outage, for instance, I mean, that that would be generated that kind of electricity if you stored it in the
batteries would be generated easily probably, you know, within uh within a month or two during the summer. But, um but I don't know uh what the um conventional generator uh how that cost would compare.
could definitely be more expensive than a conventional generator just because there's a lot more. I mean, you're you're you're adding all the solar to it, which you may or may not choose to do anyway. Like you don't, you know, even if you put in a generator, you could still obviously install solar to help offset your utility bills, but uh
did you install a generator? You don't need them at that point, of course. Uh so there's quite a bit of additional cost there. And the batteries are actually pretty expensive. Uh so you know and we can always we can always work through that pricing exercise. We can put a couple options in our smack
narratives if that's uh of value uh to get what that delta is. Uh >> yeah I I think it would be worthwhile especially if you designed a backup system where the batteries only needed to be a handle like a few days worth of
um of of power. um you know, it's unlikely that that you're going to have a week without power, but >> yeah, it generally speaking, uh how we've approached it before, we did we did um we did a library in
Connecticut that was that had geothermal and had solar and batteries to support it. Um the the biggest question really comes down to whether or not you expect to hold pool in session during a power
outage. Uh especially a prolonged power outage. Um because as the batteries start trying to support a building for multiple days on batteries would result in a a a pretty significant battery package if you can imagine. Uh in
generally how we've approached that we support as much as the building as we can but then as time goes on we start to shut things off the batteries because they're starting you know to to try to you know >> only support emergency loads that you know some lighting maybe the kitchen
walking cooler you know only like critical things. >> Sure. Sure. You know, I I'm actually thinking, you know, as as I as I as we think through this, I'm saying, okay, well, if there was a if there was really an electrical outage of that length, you
know, like a week long, is it likely that school would even be in session at that point, >> right? And that's always a good conversation to have because some people would say, well, then, you know, who knows? Maybe we're not even having school because, you know, we had a hurricane come through and nobody keeps
school anyway. Uh, >> right. Right. Right. I don't know how the district has has dealt with extended power outages in the past. Every district is different. Some districts want, you know, want the ability to have the kids go to school, have the lights on. Um some some don't. So that that
plays into it also because if you're expecting to power, you know, the entire building with these batteries for a prolonged period of time, probably it would become >> probably cost prohibitive. But if you only need to do certain load, um it may
become a little bit more plausible. >> Okay. All right. >> So, one comment on that. Oh, go ahead, Jess. Finish yourself. I'll comment. >> Finish. I'll comment. >> Yeah. My my only other question um is do
we have um other buildings? We have a lot of do we have a lot of experience with these um similar uh thermal systems uh say in other high schools or other public buildings um that we can look to
um for experience. Uh we we you know between CRA and TESS we certainly do um some that are recent and then some you know we did a spool with Greg in his previous slice 15 years ago but geothermal that's still up and running and and last we checked is still
operating in in good standing. Um so we certainly have some references if you're ever looking to you know uh chat with their facility group to understand how the building is operating if you're if you're that interested. So we can certainly provide some references.
>> Okay. Um let me see. I think see I think I've uh oh how many um how many uh pumps or actually how many um uh drillings um are you expecting to have
to do? >> So we're still early um in terms of the design. So you know it would more more to come but generally >> speaky >> uh and it depends how deep we go also uh the very conventional geothermal well is
500 feet deep but some people are going deeper now to try to reduce the number but if we go 500 feet deep with a conventional geothermal well you need you usually need about one for every 1500 square feet of building. So thankfully the math on this one's pretty easy because 150,000 square foot
building uh you'd be looking at around 100 wells uh and they're spaced usually around 20 ft on center. >> Give you a ballpark. We would certainly dial that in. >> You shouldn't call them wells. You should call them four holes. >> Yeah.
>> Four. >> Four holes, not wells. >> Yes. Okay. So, and each of those would cost um on the order of 40 to 50,000. >> Correct. >> Okay. Um
>> I give me give me an idea of how these um how these uh borings would be sort of mapped. Are they close to each other? Are they scattered all over the place? How how do how do you site them?
They're so they're typically spaced about 20 feet on center. Um and we would try to fit as many as we can in a singular area just for you know economy of pipe routing and things like that but they don't all go in a singular area. Um obviously that's something we would work
through with this like plan of you know can we fit can we fit all of them in a >> in a certain area completely under the parking lot or do we need 50 here and 50 there type of thing. Um, but generally speaking, we try to group as many together as we can. 2 ft up there.
>> Okay. And then are they all connected to um to the system underground? Is that how it works? So that they're basically invisible at at ground level. >> Exactly. So they're usually the casing itself stops about four feet below
grade. Um so then you back fill pave on top of it. You don't even know they're there. Uh the piping runs underground typically to u one or two uh we call a vault which is basically just a u can either be a fiberglass or a concrete structure that all the piping comes into
to combine into you know a single set of pipes that goes into the building. So um that all of that occurs underground. So yeah when you're on the site you don't even know that this system exists. Uh, >> okay. >> And so you could have parking over it.
You could have ball fields. You could, you know, any any site feature could be above it. We t we just need to coordinate the the bore locations with any site utilities, underground, storm, water retention, any of that type of stuff. >> Okay. And as you bore these these um uh
holes, um are there any significant environmental impacts that have to be um addressed? Are you going through aquifers? How does that work? >> Yep. So, it it's really all uh that the
short answer is yes. There are uh environmental requirements. So, uh and what that comes from is when you drill uh any and depending on your ground conditions. It's really how much groundwater comes up when you drill. Um again, we're not necessarily capping that groundwater, but when we when we
drill a hole, we're going to we're going to get some ground water that comes out. Um, and the more groundwater that you have, the more treatment you have. You know, you have to treat that water before it's introduced back into the ground anywhere. Um, whether it's introduced to a waterway or wetlands or
anything like that, it has to be filtered. Um, so we include all of those requirements in our specifications for the the geothermal contractor. Um, so they have to deal with all of the the water quality treatment um, and handling
that uh that groundwater. Okay. So, before they start um drilling, do they have a fairly good idea of what they're going to encounter under that deep underground? >> Well, we would do in design, we would suggest doing a test bar. So, uh and
actually, we usually suggest doing two uh just because, you know, it's always there to have a little bit more information and make sure the one you did is an anomaly or anything like that. But we would we would if if the district is confident that this this the approach they want to take with geothermal, we
would do two test boards. Uh we would do that in during design because it helps inform our design as well because you know the more the more bedrock you have, the better heat transfer you have. Um and so a contractor would do two bores. they would flow water through them for
for >> should this discussion be like separated out and uh and do that on a special occasion. I I'm just saying that if we have a lot to get done kind of what going in one one direction. Yeah, I know there a lot of good questions but I'm just wondering if
it if it doesn't deserve its own topic. >> Yeah, because I had a couple comments too. If if we're going to battle the fire chief to be involved, that's a huge issue. We don't have the equipment to deal with battery fires, battery stored units or anything like that. And
typically generators for a building of this size are used for an emergency warming space and not the house still suit. Um, that being said, I think we have an expert on the committee. Chuck, don't you do geothermal for a living? >> I I have. Yeah.
>> I' I'd be interested in your take. So, I like the closed loop uh method that they're discussing and uh I I would the electric backup batteries just complicates things and and adds added
expenses and our generator would be our backup system and the pumps to heat the building, you know, don't require a lot of uh electricity. So, uh the the test bore holes where you do
a thermal conductivity test and that tells you uh would basic tell you how many bore holes you would need and yeah, they're set in the grit pattern. Poly. Um, >> yeah, I know a little bit about I think
this deserves its own top its own meeting or discussion and I don't know how your meeting's uh scheduled for tonight, but >> well, this this this was tonight's meeting is just for us to say
consensus is we think geothermal is the way we want to go. That way we can get the SD set done. We can come back and revisit this and go down all all the little wormholes and bore holes and everything else. Um, the reason we were looking for consensus is if we're going
with air source heat pumps, there's some changes in the building that would have to get wrapped up into the SD set. It's easier to go the geothermal route and then if somewhere down the line someone's uncomfortable and the committee goes, "No, we'd really rather
go with airsource heat pumps," then we'll have a mechanical room that we can shrink down a little bit and a roof design that will work. We'll just have equipment on the roof. I I wasn't intending to get into how does all this
work. The biggest cause biggest concern with this is usually everyone thinks it costs more and we wanted to get the grants in front of everybody to show that going this way is a zero game on first cost and a savings on annual
costs. And then we have no problem spending some time at a future committee meeting and and delving more into it and showing some examples and getting some people that that folks can talk to. So, I'd like to make the motion to go
with geothermal. >> I'll second. >> This is James. I'll second. >> Okay. Motion by Mary. I think Jeff, was that you that said second? >> Yeah. Yes. >> And Jane. Thank you both. All right. And
we will do roll call to um all in favor or I guess no roll call. You say yes or no. All right. We've got Tara. Yes, Mary. >> Yes, >> Jeff. >> Yes,
>> Jane. >> Yes, >> Jen. >> Yes, >> Jill. Pilgalerani. >> Yes. >> Jill Fis, >> yes. >> Kristen, >> yes. >> Carrie, >> yes.
>> Mike, >> yes. >> Peter, >> yes. Sarah, >> yes. >> Scott, >> yes. >> And Charles, >> yes. >> All right, it is unanimous. Everyone
forward with Thank you. >> All right. Um I think next we have public forum. Not sure if anyone joined us or if anyone from the committee has anything. All right, hearing nothing. Um, Christina, yep, there we go. Our next
meeting is May 13th. Uh, these are all on our calendars, so they just, um, you'll see that the topics for discussion are included here. Um, and looking for actually, okay, next slide.
>> Yeah, Terrace, just to let you know, May 13th, I'll be away. >> Okay. Do we need to reschedu or are we good with the rest of >> between Trisha and then you're well covered? >> Perfect. >> As long as you don't bring orange
buildings, you can go on vacation, Greg. >> Oh, man. >> I won't be there. Of course, there'll be orange buildings. >> Jane Orange worked well with the Middle Burough School that we toured. >> Yeah, I'll send you the pictures,
>> but that's their school color, so it's a different term. nice little accent. >> But yeah, it's kind of exciting. Three more meetings um until the final vote for the schematic design submission. So, and next meeting is finalizing exterior materials. The June 10th meeting was a
cost estimate review because we will have them back by then. And then June 17th is um the vote for the submission itself. >> Great. I think there's one last slide. Yep.
>> Um, accidentally we were did not I know in the agenda there was no community engagement update. So this was a >> just a mistake. >> All right. We can catch up on that next time. >> Yep. Just a thank you to you all. >> All right. Thanks everyone. Looking for
a motion to adjurnn. >> Motion by Carrie. Second by I'll give that to you, Jeff. >> Thank you. >> And we'll roll call. Tara, yes. Jane, >> yes. >> Jeff, >> yes. >> Mary,
>> yes. >> Jen, >> yes. >> Jill PG, >> yes. >> Jill Face, >> yes. >> Kristen, >> yes. >> Carrie, >> yes. >> Mike, >> yes. Peter,
>> yes. >> Sarah, >> yes. >> Scott, >> yes. >> And Chuck. >> All right. Thanks everybody. Enjoy the rest of your night. >> Thank you.