[Music] For the record, my name is Enrique Pepin, District 5 City Councelor, and I'm the chair chair of the Boston City
Council Committee on City Services and Innovation Technology. Today is September 16, 2025. The exact time is 6:03 p.m. This hearing is being recorded. If you're looking to submit a written testimony, please email our central staff leaison, Shane
Pacshane.acboston.gov, and it will be made a part of the record and available to all counselors. Public testimony will be taken at the actually public testimony will be taken at the beginning of the hearing. Individuals will be called on in the order in which they sign up and will have two minutes to testify.
If you're interested in testifying in person, please add your name to the signup sheet near the entrance. Today's hearing is on docket number 0768. Order for a hearing to discuss water and sewer infrastructure in Chinatown and the Leather District. This matter was
sponsored by councilors Ed Flynn and Julie Mahia and was referred to the committee on April 2nd, 2025. Today I'm joined by my colleagues in order of arrival, the sponsor of the hearing, councelor Ed Flynn, and our atlarge city councelor Aaron Murphy.
Okay. At this time, I'm going to open it up to um just opening testimonies from my colleagues. So, I'm going to start off with the sponsor of the hearing, Councelor L. Flint Counselor, the floor is yours. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And I also want to say thank you to City Council Central staff for being here, for working um working tonight. I also want to say thank you to Josiah Quinsey Upper School for um allowing us to use this building.
I want to say thank you to the panel for being here. I also want to say a special thank you to the residents of the Leather District and Chinatown as well. I do I do know there's also some residents here from um Fort Point.
Thank you to the residents uh for being here and to the Water and So Commission, the Boston Groundwater Trust, National Grid, Eversource Vicinity, Comcast and I also want to say thank you. We are
doing um translation um from from English into Cantonese. So I want to say thank you to my team and city council central staff as well. I filed this hearing order in April when it when there was a water main break in
Chinatown causing extensive flooding evacuation of residents. Three po three properties were impacted and six units were displaced. The burst pipe was a 6-in fire sprinkler
water pipe. There have been several other water main breaks in Chinatown over the last few years, including a 12-in water mane break in 2023 at the intersection of Harrison Avenue and Beach Street. a 12-in water main break in September 22
at the intersection of Washington and Neland. In all of these instance, traffic, services, restaurants, and small businesses in around Chinatown were impacted. Residents in the Leather District have also
expressed concern to me and to my assistant Melissa um about last year during la in the last year that their tap water temperatures were reaching almost 100 degrees
and they had concerns about the adverse effects of high groundwater levels on civil infrastructure. The maintenance of water and sewer infrastructure is a critical issue for groundwater level. Also, I know the Boston Water and Sewer actively monitors the health and
function of its systems via pipe recycling, pipe replacement, preventive maintenance programs, including water mane flushing, pipe cleaning, catch basin cleaning, among among others. This hearing will discuss causes of these water mane breaks, preventive
maintenance, projects in and around Chinatown and the leather district, short-term, long-term, how we can mitigate some of these impacts. I also called for this hearing on other topics that have evolved in broaden to a lot of other key infrastructure areas as
well. Residents expressed concern about rising groundwater. Some reported finding drilling near Reggie Wong Park and groundwater only four and a half feet below the surface. Residents are concerned about this rising groundwater
coming into contact with our steam pipes producing overheated groundwater and steam onto the streets and sidewalks. Concerns about potentially failures or impacts to internet services providers. Buildings losing heat from boilers. um
trip due to low gas pressure and even potential safety concerns on impacts to traffic signal control boxes. This hearing is an opportunity for residents to hear directly from the utility companies. It's an also an opportunity for us to hear directly from you. We're
not going to solve this problem tonight. Water and sewer pipes in our infrastructure are critical to our safety, quality of life, and growth of Boston. There is a need for continued planning in working together to address aging infrastructure not only in the
Leather District but throughout Chinatown to ensure residents and small business are impacted slightly if at all during construction. I'm here to listen to the panel, but my job as a city councelor is to advocate
for my constituents and my constituents are here tonight from the leather district, Chinatown and in Fort Point as well. U Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Councelor Flynn. Councelor Murphy, floor is yours.
Thank you. Um thank you everyone for coming out. I just want to thank the chair for being willing to have this in the community and for councelor Flynn. For anyone who knows councelor Flynn, he's all about showing up in the neighborhood. So having it in the evening and in the community, making
sure that the residents could be here to not just hear directly, but ask questions, too. So, thank you to his team and to central staff for also making sure there's language access so people feel that, you know, they're welcome here and they're also able to, you know, learn because I'm here to
learn, too. Um, find out what what went wrong, how can we work together, how can we get there. Investing in our infrastructure is like directly related to quality of life issues for residents in every neighborhood across the city. So making sure that we know how can we
support we have a great panel. Sometimes we have hearings and we do a lot of work scheduling hearings and not you know we don't have the great um the best panel to get the questions asked and the answers we want. So I'm looking forward to hearing from these expert panelists and also more importantly hearing
directly from the residents how this has affected your life, what what it is you want to see and how we can work together to get that get to that place. So, thank you and looking forward to the hearing. Thank you, Councelor Murphy. I also just want to take a second to um thank Councelor Flynn for sponsoring this very
important hearing for for me as I don't directly represent this area of the city, but I'm a big fan. Councelor Flynn knows this. If ever I'm on a date night with my wife, I go to Chinatown and the Leather District. And my family likes it so much that my sister moved out here. And what's funny, it's what's sad is
that one of our favorite spots, Sweet Waffles in Boba, over on Hudson Street back in March, they actually had to close their business because um of a water mane break. So, when I heard that this was a topic tonight of discussion, I really wanted to be part of the conversation and make sure that we had this because it impacts
our infrastructure, it impacts our businesses, it impacts our residents every single day. And obviously, city of Boston has very old infrastructure. So, we want to make sure that uh we are just taking care of everyone here no matter what corner of the city we are in. But I'm very grateful to our panelists. I
see a powerhouse of panelists over there that do amazing work for our city. And I know that whenever I reach out to them, they respond to my office with great answers. And I just want to give a quick reminder to the audience. If you have a cell phone, please put it on silence. Um that would be helpful for today's
conversation. But what I'm going to do now is kick it over to public testimony just so we since we when we do hearings offsite, we like to prioritize the voices of the residents. So we have here four people that have signed up and when I call you, please go up to the I
believe it's the mic over here to my left to your right and you have two minutes to testify. The first name I see is Ma Bing Chung. Yes, sir. My name is Ma Ch. I live at Oak Terrace
in Chinatown. [Music] flooding is a serious concern in Chinatown. We hope the panels of experts here are able to help us resolve this issue. Many times we see a lot of luxury condos that are being built and they're
built too high and they're impacting the water table and the foundation in Chinatown. [Music] Chinatown is a very old neighborhood. We have very old infrastructure. However, we have a lot of new
development coupled with climate change. Flooding will only become a regular phenomenon in our neighborhood if this does not get addressed. [Music] the infrastructures that has been built
does not meet the population growth of Chinatown as well as the usage and the needs. Our infrastructure needs to be updated to reflect current use. [Music]
We need to change and upgrade our infrastructure undergrounds to increase in size as well as numbers so that they can meet the current needs of our residents. We hope the Boston Water Sewer
Commission as well as other panelists experts here will um continue to grow our in underground infrastructure in Chinatown back with scientific data to prevent flooding and that other
catastrophe from happening in Chinatown. [Music] Thank you so much for the residents of Chinatown as well as other neighborhoods for coming to this meeting for the well-being and the safety of our
neighbors. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir. All right. The next I see on here is Robert Lung Lung. Yeah. The second row, first person. Mr. Long over here. Yes.
Oh, he doesn't want. Okay. He doesn't want to talk. Yeah, he's on. Okay. All right. That's his friend. Oh, he's talk. Perfect. Good evening elected officials. Good evening residents, panel experts. I feel
that uh the timing that this hearing is called by councelor Flynn can be at a better time. For the last few years, flooding that has happened in Chinatown, it seems like a common natural disaster.
We need to have serious conversations and discussion in city government about this very serious matter. Not only that the pipe births and flooding in Chinatown impact the quality
of life of our residents, but it really negatively impacts the viability of Small businesses. [Music] I remember it was back in 2023 or 2024 there was a major pipe burst on
Washington Street and at the time Liisho the hot pot place it was closed for two weeks and then Jaho one of the few supermarkets that's left in Chinatown also have most of their goods that they store in the basement completely canled
and damaged and I think maybe you know there were a few small businesses who were also closed and impacted and then maybe a month or so later there was another flood there was another pipe burst
[Music] Fore. [Applause] So, I think I remember a resident before me testify to the overburdening of our aging pipes and infrastructure. I feel like that overburdening is even
worse than the overburdening of my teeth that are decaying and I'm getting less and less of. So I wonder, you know, after, you know, all these pipe bursts, if the commission did a thorough inventory and comprehensive mapping of
all the pipes uh in Chinatown and figure out which one needs to be fixed and upgraded because you can't just come in and fix the pipes that that are damaged. You need to have an overall picture, a plan. And we to include this in our
yearly budget that Chinatown needs to have timely and yearly infrastructure upgrades. Otherwise, our small business are going to be are going to continue to suffer and impact and they're not able
they're not going to be able to thrive. [Music] I know and I understand it's not lost army that this is election year. We're electing we are having a mayoral election. We're having a city council election. we're electing our, you know,
council president. I hope that once we're set after the election, this will be one of your number one priority. This will be your top items that you will focus on. Chinatown and infrastructure upgrades. Thank you so much. This is all
I have. He's my plant. I plant them in there. Thank you, sir. Okay. Okay, the next name I have here is a Katherine Freriedman. So, I'm sorry. I'm just checking. I have um a statement from a neighbor. Um would
it be okay to read that as well as my own? Sure. Okay. Um, the purpose of this letter and associated documents is to share background information relevant to the recent history of heated groundwater in the Leather District. The cause of this issue has been determined to be the
result of an unprecedented unprecedented groundwater level rise causing groundwater to come into contact with uninsulated steam pipes maintained by Vicinity Energy. Vicinity Energy does not dispute this fact and has actively worked to lower groundwater levels
throughout the Leather District using temporary and permanent pump installations. And I'm sorry, I should have said this is from Robert Qua uh from 77 Atlantic. As a result of this overall groundwater rise, residents of 717 Atlantic Avenue have experienced multiple days long periods in which
municipal tap water issuing from their faucets has ranged from 75 to 106°. This municipal water temperature is rise is a direct result of the overall groundwater temperature rise caused by groundwater contact with the district
steam system maintained by vicinity energy. This process is commonly known as thermal conduction. According to the Boston Groundwater Trust and the Boston Water and Sewer Commission, normal tap water temperatures in Boston should range from 45 to 55°.
Higher tap water temperatures can damage sensitive water metering equipment, increase overall hot water temperatures in showers and sinks due to lack of cold water, accelerate the leeching of lead into drinking water if present in old pipes, and increase the risk of exposure
to legionaire's disease. This concern has been repeatedly brought to the attention of councelor Flynn's office, the Boston Water and Sewer Commission, Boston Groundwater Trust, Mayor Woo Chief Climate Officer, Brian Sweat, and Vicinity Energy. the operator of the large district stream system that has
been identified as the source of the heat causing the tap water temperature rise. City officials, Boston Water and Sewer, Boston Groundwater Trust, and Vicinity Energy have been made aware of this problem since it first occurred over four years ago. A timeline of events relative to these concerns is
available for anyone wishing to learn more. Major concerns, damage to public infrastructure. This includes negative impacts on Boston's district steam system itself, municipal water systems, municipal sewer systems, electrical grids, telecommunication systems, and
multi- public multiple public transportation systems, including roadways, tunnels, subway systems, and rail systems. Signaling systems for automobiles and pedestrians can also be negatively impacted. Damage to privately owned infrastructure. This includes
damage to building foundations, basements, and internal plumbing systems. Higher subsurface temperatures brought about steam line ther brought about by steamline thermal conduction can also cause internal temperatures of buildings to rise and necessitate
heavier HVAC use during summer months. Health risks to residents of the Leather District due to elevated bacterial growth and sewers and water lines. damage to natural resources such as trees, plants, fish, invertebrates, and other organisms.
Uh, and the request is to identify the source of the groundwater rise and remediate it as soon as possible. Um, so just and um and then uh my testimony. Um, my name is Katherine Freriedman. I'm a
Leather District resident, Quinsey school parent, and Reggie Wong Park board member. The Leather District faces two underground challenges that are increasingly converging. First, groundwater in the neighborhood has been rising. The Leather District is built on historic fill near the Fort Point
Channel, and underground infrastructure, including utilities, roadways, and building foundations, restricts where that water can flow. Recent drilling at Reggie Wong Park found groundwater as shallow as 4 and 1/2 ft below the ground surface, or a mere 6 in below the frost
line. Second, the neighborhood sits at the edge of the vicinity plant where a vast network of pipes carry steam across the city. To reach distant buildings at the proper temperature, steam must be extremely hot near the source, and many of the pipes are aging and uninsulated. Where these conditions meet, the effects
are clear. Rising groundwater is coming into contact with uninsulated steam pipes, producing overheated groundwater. This is driving utility failures, venting steam on streets and sidewalks, and creating safety risks. We already see the consequences. In 2024, internet
service across the neighborhood was unreliable for extended periods. Last December, during extreme cold, my building repeatedly lost heat when the boiler tripped from low gas pressure. For years, traffic signals on and near Neland Street went dark as steam
infiltrated a signal control box. That box has since been relocated, but signal synchronization problems remain. and steam vents through sidewalks and crosswalks, obscuring visibility, burning exposed feet and legs, and intensifying the extreme heat burden in
Chinatown. These conditions raise urgent questions. What strategies exist to manage rising groundwater and elevated subsurface temperatures? Is anyone studying the long-term effects of hot groundwater on foundations? How is water
displacement being considered? And could new tower foundations destabilize existing structures? Would insulating the steam system, at least closer to the plant, improve overall efficiency? Boston's growth depends on stable, resilient infrastructure, addressing the
interaction between steam and groundwater is essential to protecting residents, preserving buildings, and ensuring the city's future stability. Thank you. [Applause]
Thank you. Thank you so much. We have one more p testimony that is um please forgive me. Is it Yalin Chu? I may be mispronouncing. They live on Tyler Street. Yeah, if you
live on 106 Tyler Street. Oh, okay. Thank you so much, Chancellor Flynn, and um other counselors as well as expert panels and residents for showing up for tonight's hearing.
Yeah, just like the other residents who has testified before me, Chinatown is so old. Chinatown is so neglected. I've been in the United States for 18 years. I haven't seen a single improvement in Chinatown.
So, Chinatown is a very old neighborhood. I'm sure there's a lot of old pipes and there's a lot of old sewer systems, but we have massive we have had massive development in Chinatown for the last decades. And I wonder if any of those infra uh infrastructure has been
upgraded to support those developments. We all know uh currently we're in the middle of a mayor uh um mayoral um election and I really urge our fellow residents to really um vote for whoever you feel would truly care about
Chinatown and have Chinatown's best interest in mind and I urge the same for our um expert panels that you would also prioritize Chinatown in your work. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you everyone. Thank you for um uh Councelor Flynn's um Chinatown Leone. Thank you. [Applause] Thank you so much to everyone for your public testimonies. Again, these hearings are important because we get to hear directly from the residents. Um,
okay. So, with this now, I want to turn it over to our panelist for introductions and then we can start with our Q&A. So, we start off with John and we go all the way down. Good evening everyone and uh thank you councils for having this meeting and you
for attending because you are all of our customers who we care for and it's very important that you understand we're there for you 24/7 every day. all of you that got up this morning and were taking a shower. You're welcome because it
works well. And the uh issue have heard of flooding. Um we are open all the time for any complaints. You get them to us, we investigate them. So I just want to rest assured with that. Um I'm John Sullivan. I'm the chief engineer of Boston Water Sewer. I've been working
for the city for 53 years. Um everywhere in the city, I know where most of the streets are. I know where most of the pipes are. I've also had the advantage of putting in a lot of the new pipes and I want to assure you that Chinatown is a focus and I have a little brief that I
want to go over with the councils just to go over quickly what we're going to present and any information I have here today after we get through you can take a look at it and you want a copy of it we'll get it to you whether it be by mail or by email. So we share all of our
information with you. Um, we've been going through a lot of work uh in Chinatown. Um, it is some old pipes, but many, many new pipes. And I can assure you that we can't come in here and do all 17 miles at once. Some of you have
experienced us working on the streets. You've seen how it blocks your roadway, blocks your parking, etc. Infrastructure renewal is a very difficult thing to do in a congested part of the city. We're not the only ones in the street. we share the same street with the other
utilities. So I I want to assure you of that we did do an analysis. We're constantly doing analysis on our city systems. Um one of the sheets that I have here that we'll go over later. Um there's a national study on all water
main breaks in North America and Canada. The largest one ever done. It was completed in 2023. So it's a very recent study. That study shows that there's 286 water mane breaks for a thousand miles of water mane. So 286 times something
burst per,000 miles. We just happen to have 1,000 miles of water man. So the math for us is very easy. In Boston for the last 10 years we average 35 breaks per year. The national average is 286.
We have 35. Just showing you we have an extremely extremely good system. Unfortunately, the the breaks in Chinatown in the district of 17 miles is an average of 7.6 brakes um per 100
miles or 76 breaks per thousand miles, but you only got 17. So, what I'm telling you is there's more breaks in Chinatown than there is on average in the city of Boston. And we acknowledge that. To fix that, we have been working, as you've noticed, up um Chanty Street
up in the Taiung area. We have plans next year to come back in do around Washington Street. Again, these are all in this set of plans that I can give you all. You'll see it again. It's disruptive. So, we plan this stuff out. We don't come in in one area and absolutely block businesses and block
your quality of life. We plan this stuff out. So, I'll I'll cut there and let everyone else introduce themselves. And again, we'll stick around as long as it takes or till they throw us out of the building. Um, but we will get you information and we're available at all times for you.
Thank you. Um, so my name is Christian Sinnelli. I'm the executive director of the Groundwater Trust. Um, some people in that room may not know what that is. Uh, I'll tell you briefly. We were actually established by the city council in 1986 with the sole purpose of monitoring groundwater levels throughout the filled land areas of the city where
they're wood piling supported structures. So in short, it's imperative that the groundwater um remain above the tops of the wood piles that support these buildings in the fill land areas of the city. the groundwater level drops for whatever reason, and that could be a
multitude of reasons, and the pilings are exposed to air for a significant amount of time, usually years, the buildings can start to sink and settle. Chinatown was actually one of the areas in the 80s and 90s where it was ground zero where you lost a bunch of buildings, particularly on Hudson Street, I think in total four buildings
were lost because of rotted pilings. That was prior to our existence. And the way that we monitor the groundwater levels are through groundwater observation wells. So, I haven't been at the groundwater trust as long as John's been at Water and Sewer, but I have been there for 26 years. I supervise the installation of all 800 wells that we
have. I'm constantly looking at the data in those wells, which we acquire 6 to8 times per year. And we work closely with water and sewer to identify areas where the groundwater levels are low. We also alert the commission when we groundwater levels are high because that can mean there's a water main break somewhere or there's a leak. And so, we let them know
that. So, like water and sewer, we're there for you. We're constantly out there monitoring. Not only we monitoring the walls manually, we're taking real-time data in 30 locations throughout the city. Uh we've also engaged in an underground heat study where we've installed 20 temperature
sensors throughout the city to see where this heated groundwater is other than the Leather District and other than Chinatown. And we'll continue to work with everybody really in this room um on finding a a mitigation, you know, to this problem. Uh I'm going to hand it over to Vicinity and Don. And like John
said, uh, after the meeting, during the meeting, whatever, I'm available if you, uh, want to chat. Thanks. Thank you, Christian. Good evening, Chair Pepin, members of the city council. Uh, thanks for having us. My name, for those that don't know me, is Don Sylvia, and I am the regional
vice president of operations for Vicinity Energy. Uh, Vicinity Energy is the largest owner and operator of district energy systems in the US. Uh we operate 19 systems across 12 different cities. Uh I have a particular affinity to Boston. I think it's the best system.
Uh it happens to be the one that I run. Uh our mission now is to decarbonize. Right in front of us is a is an interesting is an interesting uh interflux with our with our system uh to be able to utilize that and lever it for
the decarbonization of Boston. Our system in Boston consists of about 29 miles of pipe that's in multiple neighborhoods. Uh we operate on three metrics, safety, reliability, uh and efficiency. Uh the first two obviously will take uh precedent over the last
one. Uh we do pride ourselves in our reliability. Uh our customer base tends to be all of the uh critical care facilities in the city of Boston. Uh Boston Medical Center, Tus New England Medical Center, uh Mass General Hospital and the like. We also support life
science in the life science community uh and we do support small businesses uh in some of the neighborhoods as well. More recently uh you know we have been working in handinhand with uh water and sewer the groundwater trust in our other
neighboring utilities right to address what we feel are somewhat isolated issues in certain areas of the city. Uh and that would be uh the leather district is one of them. uh and we've been diligent in trying to address it, mitigate it, uh and try to find
solutions. Uh I think we understand some of the frustration of the residents. Uh I understand it's your home. We've been we proud to be part of the community. Uh you know, one of our plants actually exists in Chinatown at the Nan Street at the corner of Nean Street in Atlantic A.
Uh which serves the greater Boston community. Currently, you know, we've seen over the last few years is as John said, statistically across the city uh in 2024, we had 107 311 calls. So,
notifications from the city council or from the mayor's office of potential issues uh across the city and we we are here 247 just as water and sewer is to address those as quickly as we can. Um over the last year, we've seen that
number drop down to 38 cases. So we've had 38 calls uh in the first nine months of the year. So while we're not at zero uh we are diligent in trying to for constant improvement. Uh the last thing I would say is you know we're we're
trying to or we are in the in the course of of a of an evolution of our system. Uh over the next few years you'll see uh our system become decarbonized. We're going to utilize the Charles River for a heat pump to uh to supply the services.
So, by using that technology, we'll be able to decarbonize roughly 71 million square feet of conditioned space in the city of Boston. Uh and that's that's a a quantum leap for not just district energy, but for the city of Boston. So, we think we're an integral part of the
fabric. Um we're here to stay and we want to be part of the solution. Comcast. Good evening. Good evening, councilors. Um, good evening residents. My name is Angela Holm Barson. I'm here representing Comcast. Uh, while we do
not, uh, provide water through the city of Boston, we are your internet and cable provider. Um, as my panelists, uh, my fellow panelists have mentioned, we're proud uh to serve the communities that we serve. Uh we pride take pride in
our relationships with community organizations and in Chinatown particularly we have a very strong relationship with the Boston Chinatown Neighborhood Center. Um it's I work with our our counselors um in in our administration
to not only make sure that they're aware that I'm here to help them but so that they can further help you. Um Miss Freriedman, it's um nice to meet you in person. I've actually had many exchanges with Miss Freriedman in the past. Um, please know that that we are always here
to hear your issues and we are always working with other providers collaboratively to ensure that there are no disruptions. In fact, we've been working with those who are managing these steam issues to uh eliminate these service disruptions. Um,
we take this work seriously. You can reach out to us anytime. Uh and if you cannot reach us, you can always reach out to one of your counselors and and they know how to get in touch with me. Certainly. Good evening. My name is Joe Carroll, National Grid. I would like to thank
Council Chair Pepin, Council Murphy, and Council Finn for inviting us here tonight. Uh but more importantly for the community. Um, we operate the natural gas system in every neighborhood in the city but High Park. So, you see us all
the way around and I have 38 years. John wins this for 52 or 60 I believe. But, um, we're here just again in terms of some of the comments that were raised. But before we get into that, uh, the infrastructure, there was comments made about upgrading infrastructure key
component, right, to do that. John elaborated there's a lot of stuff on the ground and so does uh Dawn in terms of that and that takes coordination and in fact that word was stated a couple of times as well uh in terms of how do you coordinate how do you get into these roads into the streets in the city
working but allowing everyone in terms of their regular life um we see a lot of activity in and around Chinatown a lot of activity down in Back Bay leading into the Leather District so it's that type of coordination that that is needed needed and and the coordination that we
work with is two parts. Two we look at as two parallel parts. We're all on the ground. John and his team at water and sewer national grid meet on a regular basis because it is it is that improvement that they're doing on the
ground. The unfortunate thing that we have is because we're fairly regulated and there is a mass law on encroachments. uh when we operate and a lot of it down here is cast iron pipe, we have to replace it from that end and that takes coordination. That's why we meet in
terms of how we do how do we do the work, how do we plan for the work and then how do we schedule it and get into the community to do that. And that brings us to the second is is the coordination within the community. um how do we you know get in it's it's not
like when started way back that it was a an urban setting where everyone went home at night. Now it's shops and homes all the way around and how do you try to coordinate that work going in without doing it from that side. So that's the
key component that we're looking at. We also work 24/7. Uh we're around the clock with 311. We're on it all the time. I do want to give a great shout out and nothing against council Murphy's department because your your group is tremendous as well. Uh but Melissa from
Council Flynn's office. Uh she is phenomenal, right? She uh I think we talked whether weekends, holidays, she's out there representing you and the residents for that and and doing a great thing. And and also not to put it
because councelor Murphy is also all the way around from this end. So you know her office is touch and so you have a lot of representation out there that is speaking on behalf of you but what we going to do here is how do we coordinate when we do the work from that end so I'm
well we'll be here welcome to go on we can go through a few things if we get into the works but you know currently we do not have a lot of work going on in not in Chinatown. Okay thank you so much for those opening statements and for all the work that you all do. I'm going to jump right into the
Q&A and we're going to start with the sponsor. Oh, Chris Becky. Chris Becky. Yes. Um, is he your panelist? Chris, are you trying to give testimony? Oh, sorry, sir. So, right now we're
doing a Q&A from the city council side. Yeah. So we and just for clarity there is no Q&A from the residents to the panelists directly. So what we could do is Sure. Yes. Um but just wanted to put that out there to make sure that there's
some clarity there. All right. So we're going to start with the lead sponsor of the hearing, Councelor Flint. The floor is yours for Q&A. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the panel. Thank you to the excellent public testimony and um
and also want to say thank you to the chair for um being here with us to councelor Murphy for her important work in Chinatown in the leather district. But I also want to acknowledge councelor Mahia who was a co-sponsor. She had an emergency meeting she had to get to. Um
but she's also concerned about this issue. So on this on this chart here, this chart here, can someone can I get this in in in larger type
uh for the residents? A couple of the residents already asked me about it. Absolutely. We can in whatever size you want. Any of these charts are available. Okay. Okay. Thank you. the the issue that residents have ha have asked me to stress
both the leather district in Chinatown. So, let me try to let me try to ask a couple of questions and whoever wants to respond can respond. um the steam pipe system that we have
and it's impacting the quality of life for residents in the Leather District. What is the short-term plan and what is the long-term plan for providing a safe environment, a healthy environment for
residents? I want to make sure we're working together. We're doing everything we possibly can to provide a healthy environment, but when when water is 100 degree temperature, um that's certainly a major a major problem.
So, I I'll take that one obviously. Um so, first off, I I think a little history around the steam system is is probably appropriate. Um the this the original steam system in the city of Boston in in the latter district uh
dates back to about the 1930s, right? The Neil Street station was constructed uh around that same period. Uh the steam system itself has evolved over time as the city has evolved. So uh it's it's a little bit of everything and the and the
technology is a little bit of everything. So just to to make sure I point out the fact that on Atlantic Avenue all of the infrastructure went in during the central lottery project. So roughly you know in the late very late 90s uh 2000s is when it became active.
Uh so that's some of the of the let's quote newer infrastructure that's underground in the city of Boston. Um where you're seeing this issues. The issue uh with the heated water seems to be after we have we looked at data and we've worked with the groundwater trust
and we've worked with water and sewer um seems to be isolated to uh like a oneb block area on on Atlantic Avenue uh that where a service line crosses over uh the the steam main. um that what we have
done I think it was pointed out we have uh installed monitoring well there or or monitors in our manholes to to look for elevated water table. Um we've tried to source where the water is coming from. There's been testing. We've worked collaboratively with Boston Water and
Sewer to see if it was city water. The feeling is it's not city water. Um doesn't appear to be seawater. Uh so we're trying to figure that out. I think your question is what are we doing to solve it? Um we have taken a number of actions to solve it and we will continue
to work diligently to to come up with with a final solution. Uh that may be uh having to relocate water services. Uh but we're still working to try to figure out what that might be. Um okay. Thank thank you sir. Um maybe
maybe to Donald or to Christian. Um I I stated because residents stated to me temperatures of over 100°. Have you actually measured or studied what temperature um
this is the the water is at in some of these apartments or condos? I don't believe we've taken the data, but the data has been provided to us from the from the apartments and condos saying that they've they've taken the data. So, I've seen evidence of of water
coming out of a faucet um from a specific residence along Atlantic app of of 100 degrees. Yes. Christian um have you studied that issue and what can you report in terms of what temperature have you studied or or
observed? So in our observation wells we we measure the groundwater level but when we were alerted by Robert Qua who Katherine provided testimony from now it's going on I think almost three years ago um we we took an interest in some of the wells in the area said you know
let's let's check the temperature of the water and the and the ground water in the wells. So typically ground water depending on the season can be anywhere from 45 to as high as 60° Fahrenheit. hotter in the summer, colder in the uh in the winter. Obviously, um when we
measured the groundwater uh in a well at 184 Salt Street, it was 160° 100 160 degrees 106 160 160 160 and that, you know, happens to be that we just have a well that's right near uh a steam infrastructure. So, the
groundwater is being heated very locally in that spot. Okay. Um that does not account for the problem that's occurring about a block away. That's a separate issue entirely. Um, from our point of view, we're looking at it, we're saying, okay, where else is this a phenomenon
and is it is that hot water somehow impacting the building foundations and the wood piles? Um, again, if the piles are submerged and they're in the and they're in the groundwater, they're fine because there's no presence of oxygen. However, if the water is heated, what does that do to the pilings? What does
that do to the buildings? Don't know right now. Don't know of any buildings that have been have had their wood piles compromised, their structural integrity compromised because of heated water. Haven't seen that. Spoken to engineers who specifically worked on the artery and looked at a bunch of those foundations in that area in those
buildings during that time. Um they didn't note anything like that. You know, they did a bunch of test pits along the artery at that time. So, um again, this is something that we're continuing to to try to figure out. Well, let let me ask you as a followup. Um Christian, are we able to do a study
about the impact this is having on our infrastructure? Um you know certainly 160 degree temperatures um in in groundwater and then 100° in in drinking water or showering water um is is
unhealthy is unacceptable. But are you able to do a detailed study you and including the water water and so commission so residents know exactly what the problem is? I'm happy to coordinate with with any agency the agencies that are up on the panel and exploring that. Sure. Absolutely. I mean we have the well
infrastructure to do that. How that would sort of play into that study would have to be a discussion that would have to have with the with the with the utilities. So that certainly we are able to do that. Um John are you are you guys able to do that with um the groundwater commission? Yeah, we we continually work both with vicinity and
the groundwater trust. Um we our our water temperature in the pipes will generally be about 55 degrees. We're down 6 ft deep. That's the temperature of the ground down 6 ft. In the summer, the very hot summer, the water itself can get to 72ish.
We've seen water that hot. It gets very warm inside your buildings because your buildings are very warm, unless it's super air conditioned. But um the only time we'd see pressure uh water temperatures higher than that in 72ish degrees there's an external source and
in this case we believe working with that the groundwater is warm and vicinities there. So we're working with them all trying to find a way to get the water pipe away from the heat. So the service pipes feeding the building need to be removed or insulated from the
surrounding environment. So yeah, and we're working with them all on So So just as a fall, but we we don't really have a an idea of what is causing 160°ree temperature and then 100 degree
temperature for showering. Um that's going to be studied, but we we're not exactly certain why that is taking place. Is that accurate to say? I think I'll I'll answer that one. So um yes and no. Right. As Christian said, if
the if the monitoring well, right, abotss or is very close to the the the steam conduit itself, right, the steam lines operate uh at a high energy. So there, let's call them high voltage, right? They they operate at in excess of
350 degrees. Uh so if I if and that's throughout the city and if I was to put uh a temperature gauge right on the pipe or right next to the pipe then like any heat source right it will dissipate. So the 160 degrees that that he measured um
you know was for a certain period of time. It wasn't consistent. It you know it was obviously some some flux. So we could we could imagine that that the the pipeline was underwater at that point in time. I think that we talked about
elevated groundwater table um at some certain portion of time um and that could help for the transfer of heat but we had to have discussions to to try to sort that out because okay is this is this a an ongoing issue? Is it a a
sporadic issue? Um, and so I I don't know if that answers your question, but that's No, it it does. Um, thank thank you, Donald. Um, and councelor, can I just step in and make a quick comment? So, when we talk about the uh the groundwater table and elevation, I want
to sort of get people's head around quickly. When we work with the commission and we say an area is low, when the groundwater table is low, the commission goes out and they take a look and they look at the sewers and they look at the manholes and they look at the water mains and if there's found to be a leak, they fix it. So when we see a rise in the groundwater table, for us that's a good thing and we're not
surprised by it. In the case on Selt Street where we observed the high temperature, we also observed a three-foot bump on the water table and it coincided with work that the commission just happened to do in replacing sewers and water manes in the area. And that's not uncommon. So for an example I guess I can give you is
picture a bathtub and picture a bunch of pipes going through a bathtub and there's water in that bathtub. If there's a leak in one of those pipes, the level in that bathtub is going to go down. But if that leak in one of those pipes is fixed, the level in that bathtub is going to stabilize. And that kind of is the situation that we saw in
in the leather district. Now, since that repair three years ago by the commission, the water tables come back down about a foot and a half to two feet and is more uh consistent with the other wells in the area. So, we saw a temporary bump, but that is our whole purpose is to continue to monitor the
water table. And so, when we see somewhere it's low, again, we alert the we alert the commission. they go out, they take a look and they fix their infrastructure. I just wanted to make that that point. Thank you. I I'm out of I'm out of time. I'll wait for the second round, but I I just want to stress that we can't I
can't accept um water in someone's apartment or condo that's 100°, whether it's drinking water or showering water. We can't accept that. and and we I right now we don't necessarily have a good answer of of why
it's happening or or short-term and long-term plans and and I'm I'm not blaming anybody, but but we have to work together to address that because in my opinion, that's a public health issue and it's a public safety issue. I'll um I'll wait till the second round. Uh thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, councelor. I want to recognize that we've been joined by the city council president, Ruthie Luen. Thank you for joining us. We're in the first round of Q&A. Thank you. So, we will now be moving on with Councelor Erin Murphy. Thank you. Um, thank you to the public
testimony and chair for allowing that to ground us and start off because many of my questions are now kind of piggybacking on what you brought up. And also, I know you said it, Joe, but I have to give a shout out. Um, I know Melissa, you're always wonderful, but
you're the best translator ever. So, thank you um for being here and translating so you know directly for the residents tonight. Um a few questions bumped to the top here. So, this hearing order was filed back on April 2nd, so
five months ago. How long has this been an issue? Has it been years? Has it been just since that flood? I know like the hearing order kind of a few incences brought this to the floor of the council, but you know, five months ago this was an issue. So we were first
alerted by the resident Mr. Qua um I was sort of first alerted to this about three years ago now. Um and immediately reached out to water and sewer and then immediately connected with vicinity and since that time there's been a consistent dialogue. We basically check
in almost every month I would say since then to say okay you know what's happening here where's the water level at what are your readings showing in the growing what are you guys doing in the manhole what's water and sewer doing for for fixes what's the plan um so it's been about that long and we're
continuing to mitigate it try to mitigate it as best we can and if I heard correctly it's that the pipes are near the steam right and has that always been the case or is there some change in the temperature of the steam or did something a few years
back get put next to each other? So, I mean there there has been changes in the neighborhood. Um there hasn't been any change in the steam. The steam is uh is the same infrastructure that was installed in 2000 on on that street. Uh the
there have been changes in the amount of groundwater entering our facilities that we've seen. Uh, and we've, as Christian said, we first put into place mitigation measures to try to dewater our facilities to keep water away from it.
Um, it appears that when we do that, you know, that does help mitigate the situation. At least that's what I'm being told. And uh when when the in when the dewatering equipment would fail due to either the the materials that was
moving, whether it be grit in the water or what have you, then uh we would see this return to a higher groundwater table uh and we get alerted that there's again a temperature issue in that building. Uh so we that since then have added uh
monitoring so that we would get alerted before that becomes an issue. Um but that's the change. But if you're if 160 degrees is what you're measuring the temperature water in the pipes, what comes out of the
faucet? So just just to clarify the the temperature of the groundwater that we're measuring in the well is separate from the service that's being provided to the buildings. So that's separate. So thankfully that temperature to the buildings is considerably less. Still
very high, but it's not the 160. The highest that what is the highest temperature and do residents like how do you not scald yourself? How are your kids or people and do you have to const I know I'm asking the public and in a hearing I can't but do would a resident
need to figure out how to like adjust their faucets constantly to make sure that it's not too hot coming out? No, I think so. What happens or what we have observed has happened and we've seen this in some
other water manes as well is if the water is stagnant so let's say overnight you know the water is shut off then they the heat will accumulate in the service line in the street and then when they turn the faucet on in the morning that that warm water will come into the building
the hose right like it's laying outside and the heat's heating okay is it to a temperature though where a resident could be burned we have not seen that and what if any permanent damage will there be for um you know just the
scalding hot water in the pipes underneath even if it's not coming out into the house is there any permanent long-term damage to their infrastructure. I'd have to defer to John on that. Um the the temperatures that we've seen
coming into these houses at 100 to 110 is generally what you get for hot water in your own home in your kitchen sink. That's what you're heating it up in your cellar. So there should be no damage at all to any of the interior piping out in the street. As you get closer to this heat source, we put our pipes together
by putting a rubber gasket. And those rubber gaskets can take about 150 degrees before they start to deteriorate. So long term if that rubber is subjected and they all those pipes there have rubber gaskets long term it could be detrimental to the rubber
gasket on your end on our end but the iron itself can take tremendous amounts of temperature. So there's no problem with the pipes themselves. Interior no problem at all because that's what your hot water system in your house is doing.
The other issue that um I heard from residents and also in the hearing order is it just about flooding and that there's been flooding here in Chinatown and I often talk about when we have you know meetings with Chief Sweat and the environmental department and the city
does have a lot of plans and resources towards you know where I live in Dorchester East Boston the coast the seapport are we also making sure that neighborhoods inland who are also being affected and I know there's no like city
hall administration but I know you work directly with those departments. Do you know if there's plans and are the resources able to come out here to the leather district in Chinatown also when floods happen? Yeah. So there's there's couple types of floods. When one of our water manes
burst, it dumps a tremendous amount of water. These pipes in the ground are there standing by for fire protection. Our pipes are large because if there's a fire anywhere, we want to make sure as much water as possible can be used by
the fire department to put out the confilgration. So when a pipe burst, you get a tremendous amount of water, more water than what the drainage system is designed for. The drainage system is designed for rainfall. When we burst one of these pipes, we can
dump up to 10,000 gallons a minute onto the street, which for fire protection, you're all happy, which for a water main break, you're all sad. So, what you see is you'll see the flood in the street. It could be two feet high, water trying to get into buildings, water trying to
get into our system, water flowing wherever it can until we can get there and shut it down. So, that's one flood that you'll see because of a water main break. Flooding during a rainstorm should not be happening up to what what we call a 10-year design event or five
inches of rain in 24 hours. We can handle a lot of water. If there is flooding in any neighborhood, there's a great chance it's either a catch basin that needs to be cleaned. Those are the square little boxes you see in the gutter. It could be the pipe leading
from that catch basin to our pipe in the street. And we just recently did a major job on NSA NSA Street where we found three of the pipes broken and that was a constant problem and it's only because somebody brought it to our attention because we we don't know it unless you report to us
we have a problem. We respond to every problem. So I would just remind you that under normal circumstances you see water pwning up the street you call us and we will get there. We'll get your information and check it out. As far as long-term with the what we're talking
about the coastal flooding, etc., we're working with the city to stop the ocean from having us have a problem. But we're also continuing to look inland for the rain events that may occur in the year 2070 to 2090, where we expect much more intense rainfall, more than our pipes
can handle. And we're coming up with solutions of where to park the water when it rains real hard. We need to take it and put it somewhere temporarily and then let it get back into our system because many of these streets, we can't fit bigger pipes in them. We can't put bigger pipes in the street. There's too
much stuff in there. We also have streets with subways. We can't even get anything in there. So, we are coming up with solutions. In the end of two years, you're going to be able to look anywhere in the city. We're going to tell you what's going to happen in tell you what our solutions are. We're working on them. You should also know
that in Chinatown, without you knowing it, we have been televising every sewer in Chinatown and the leather district. And we we we're continuing to do it. They're out there all the time. You'll see these big trucks making a lot of noise. We're checking the internal condition of the sewers. When the need
be, we'll fix them. If need be, we'll replace them. And the reason we do that is we're the lowest utility. We're down deepest. And so we need to do our work first because everyone else is above us and we need to warn them that if we got to put a sewer in, get ready to replace
your utility because we'll be disrupting it. So we're we're doing all the things possible. Um again, in these sheets here, you'll see the layout, what our proposals are, where we'll be. Um I would say within a total of five years, every sewer will been checked out. We'll
know what to do. Every water pipe will have a schedule of when it'll be replaced. And on the flooding issue, we're going to rely on you. You tell us when you see a problem with flooding and we'll respond to that. Thank you. I know my time is up, but I
do just want to thank all the utilities for being here and clearly working together and communicating because that's how we're going to get results for the residents. So, thank you for that. Thank you, Councelor Murphy. Council Luan, floor is yours.
Thank you, Mr. chair and thank you to my colleagues and thank you to this panel. Thank you to members of community for being here. Um I apologize I was um at a different community event prior to this one. I so I I do have a basic question
that's included in uh the slide just so that I understand and I'm pretty sure you probably went over it already, but it says the national average is 28.6 breaks per 100 miles of cast iron. Um, the Boston Water and Sewer experiences 3.5 breaks per year, which is lower than
the national average. Is that accurate? Yeah, the the average is 28 and we're at three three and a half. So, so that's significantly lower than the average. Significantly lower than the average. The national average, but here in this neighborhood, it's higher than our city average.
That's correct. Although it's higher than our citywide average of 3.5, it's lower at 7.6 compared to 28. So, it's significantly lower than national, but it's something that we're working on to get it down to get it to our average across the city.
And what accounts for the what I guess for both questions? What accounts for our lower than the national average? And then what accounts for our slightly higher than average here in this neighborhood, but still lower than the national average?
So, we've been replacing pipes for the last 40 years. everywhere in the city. We were doing 17 miles a year for a while. Then we're down to 11 miles per year. We're constantly upgrading our system, constantly fixing our system. But you should know that the people that originally built the system built a very
good system. It they built it with extra thick pipe, so we had less brakes. We have a great system hydraulically. We don't have the pressure uh problems other people have with the burst pipes. But I think it's the the fact that even when the commission was formed in 1977
for one purpose is that to upgrade your water and sewer services and we have been at it since 1977. Every year we have an incredible commission. Uh the commissioners give us the funding we need. It's up to the engineers to do it and it's up to us not to disturb your
quality of life as we replace them. Because after we get through replacing our pipes, which are deep, in comes your other utilities because we disturb them. And one of the reasons we have breaks, more breaks in an area, congested area like Chinatown, we also had it in the
north end. We also had it in Beacon Hill, is because the streets are very small and all the utilities are crowded together. And without us knowing it all the time, someone's got to work on their utility. So they will dig a hole, they will work on their utility, fix it. But
that excavation can disrupt our pipes. Our pipes left untouched will last for a very long time. The 30-inch pipe feeding the frog pond was put in 1848. It's one happy pipe because nobody digs Boston common.
And so it just shows you that the good old pipes will last for a long time undisturbed. We also had a problem before with the DC current on the MBTA. It used to get loose. When it's loose, it corrods pipes. And so we had a problem with that. And that's the problem we have and the gas company has
on cast iron. But we're address we know the problems. We're addressing the problems. We're doing it methodically so that we don't wipe out neighborhoods because businesses need to exist. And you don't like it when we're in front of your business because it takes us a while to get in and out.
Thank you um for that um response and helps me understand the issue. Um and glad you all are working on it. Second question is maybe not fully related but one of the things that my office has received complaints about and issues about is private sewers. Are there is
there are we dealing with that at all in this in this in Chinatown and the leather district? Any private sewers are an issue and how does that does that complicate the work that you have to do or does that complicate or are there more likely to be breaks where there are private sewers? There are there are many
alleys in this city, very small alleys where people chose not to have municipal sewers installed. They had them put them in as private. They owned them themselves. And it's it's we have some in the south end. We have some in the north end. I'm not sure if we have any in this district here. Um but you should
all know that the sewer leading from your property out to the main in the middle of the street is yours. So, the word private sewers, there's plenty of them because everyone's connection from their building out to us is owned by the property owner. The good news is if you
have a problem with your property uh sewer, we will provide a grant up to $8,000 to help fix it. So, we help you fix your own private sewer. You never know you have a private sewer to the day you have sewage in your basement and you call us and then you become enlightened
that it's your problem. So, we work with the the customers. The main private sewers, we have a betterment policy and it's on our website. If you have a main a sewer in a particular alley and it's open to public travel, we allow you to petition us and we will work with you to
design the thing and you pay it as a betterment just like you do on a new street or anything else. There's a betterment policy. You pay it over 20 years. I'm sorry. A what policy? Betterment. A betterment, right? So, like for private waste. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. like the roadway, it's for the sewers, which is hard and council Ben has been
working on it, but but we we don't necessarily take a betterment policy on a small private driveway where there's two or three houses put together. If it isn't a public way, a private way rather open a public travel, we will not take it over, but there's plenty of those out there.
Okay. And then lastly, um how are the utilities companies have been working together to address these issues? And have there been any complaints that you've received recently from constituents and how are you resolving those? We we work with all the utilities
because we have to. It's like a it's like a happy family. Um and like a happy family, there's some disagreements occasionally, but the answer is we all responsible to bring to the customers our utilities. We need to bring the water and sewer and the drainage. We
need to bring the heat to the steam. We need to bring the natural gas in. you need to bring the electricity in. We know that our job is to work it out so that you're served by whatever utilities we have. So, it could be tough. It could be expensive, but we get there. So, I
would not say that we've had any job that never was done because we couldn't get along with the utility. And I see if they agree with me if if I may just join in. And I do agree with you, John. Um and and as as I said earlier and as you said in terms of
coordination we actually uh through chief of streets Joshera and with Norman um working through coordinated effort water and sewer and national grid held a um this will be our second one large
infrastructure planning bringing all our employees their employees that work with the engineering get to know everybody and walk through dos and don'ts what's out there, what are what are we seeing from that end. So, and it it's paying dividends. We're doing a lot of work. As
I mentioned earlier, cast iron pipe, we have cast iron, coated steel, and plastic. Cast iron by law, we have to move if it's encroached upon by anybody from that end. This type of coordination, we can collaborate in terms of the planning. So, we can
eliminate if a good pipe doesn't need to be moved. So, I yield to to John in terms of that coordination for that. So I do thoroughly agree with John. So I'd echo that sentiment as well. I think that you know no problem in the city can be solved by an individual
utility. Um every as you peel back the onion, every layer affects the next. Um as we as John said, he's he happens to be the oldest and the deepest. Um but we're all on top of that and and build up over time. The steam system is somewhat unique in that it also has a
few different traits than than other utilities. Other utilities are agnostic to pitch and drainage where uh the steam utility in order to operate properly needs to see this ability to drain away water from uh from a steam line.
So that makes it more difficult to relocate or move it uh and most times nearly impossible um to do that. So, we work very closely with the other utilities to see if we can alter their uh their profiles and leave ours intact
where it is. Also add while I am certainly no expert on cast iron and I can't offer you any opinions or specifications on that material, what I can offer you is uh commentary on the collaboration. Um, as a provider, uh, Comcast works with, uh,
all the folks at this table as well as many others that that aren't here that, uh, whether it be timing or, you know, where to dig or how to dig um, and on the occasion where one's infrastructure is impacted by the work of another, we always come to the table to work that
out together. I think everybody here has has worked with um most of the others at this on this panel at one point or another to resolve issues that affect the residents of Boston. Well, thank you. I want to thank you for your collaboration and thank you for
addressing this issue and for being lower than the national average, but acknowledging that there's still work for us to do here to be replacing pipes and want to thank all the members of community who have come out um and um offered their testimony as we work on this issue. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't have any further questions.
Thank you, Madam President. I have a few questions that I'm just curious on. Probably this is specifically for Boston War. So, when you look at work to do in this area of Chinatown leather district, how do you determine what areas you're going to
work on proactively? Because obviously you have to work on the areas that that break, but do you have a plan for proactive work to replace them? that I see like the in the maps here and I'm sorry that the residents can't see this like the ones that are labeled red they were they're like pre-1925
etc. So how do you determine you have a a long-term plan at the Boston water store? Yeah, we if the a pipe is like pre-1925 that seems old to everyone. Some of our best pipes in the city that don't break at all are 1876.
So there was because the city burned down in 1872 and they decided to build the water system and the new pipes they put in after 1872 after it burned down were the best pipes you could get anywhere in the world and we still run those. So age alone is not it. We also
look at the break history. We have a history of every single pipe in the city. We run analysis and statistical analysis of the potential of a pipe breaking based on that. We dig up pipes randomly, take them out, and we test them to see how corroded they are. We
crush them to see how strong they are. It's an ongoing process. And then we run statistical programs to say, "Here's a 1926 pipe. Should it come out?" Well, good chance it might not. We look at the ground conditions. If you're laid in virgin ground, if you're laid on the top
of Beacon Hill, which was a a natural drumland, there's no corrosive soil up there. But if you come down to the waterfront where we backfilled it with all crummy material as we kind of expand the city, that stuff eats up the pipe. So there's tons of factors that go into
it and we plan it and that's that's what we got. So as as you see on this thing here, we would go in if there's one bad pipe, well, we got to get the next street and the next street because they all connect together. So sometimes we'll do that. Other times we'll just take a whole district and we'll look at it and say we can go in and wipe out a whole
district really quickly because there's no utilities in the way. But then we get hurt. We find one that the utilities are everywhere. There'll be a Verizon manhole on top of us that were built later. Then it takes a lot more coordination. So you may see us a little spot here and then a whole bunch of work
somewhere else. So there's actually a method to our madness. It's scientific. It may not seem that way to you, but we're always willing to sit down with any group and tell you why we're doing what first. But it's not just age. And I have to keep repeating that to people. Old people that work for a long time for
utility don't need to be replaced right away. I'm just throwing that back up. No, I've heard that that some of our older infrastructures are tend to be stronger than the new materials that we use. Yeah, they are the the new material because of the science of it all. They're excellent material when they're
brand new and they bend and twist. Corrosion is what gets us in the water field. It's the corroded of the iron. So, the thicker you can get the iron. We use the thickest iron that you can buy. We coat the outside of the thickest iron with zinc to protect it from corroding.
Just like you'd put the zinc on your outboard motor. It it attacks the zinc first. You can't buy better materials than we do to put in the ground to for the new systems. But I still like the 1876 pipe. Okay, I'll take your word on that. All
right, so that's it for me. I am going to do a second round of questions. I know councelor Flynn has a has more questions and I want to be respectful of our sponsor. So, councelor Flynn, the floor is yours. Thank you. And I'm going to continue to work with the
Boston Water and Sewer Commission to advocate for replacing any old pipes, especially the the pre1926. I think that's important. We have a short-term plan and a long-term plan.
But I I do want to get back to I am concerned about the uh public health and public safety of of the steam uh that's impacting residents. Um, Leather District residents have told me
they measure the temperature of concrete walls as well. Concrete walls are budding the hollow sidewalks you see in the Leather District. High temperatures, 130 degrees. Um, multiple incidents of residents being burned
from steam coming out of manholes throughout the Leather District. Um, walking by them, you you you often see that. Um, to me that's a public health issue. That's a public safety h issue. I know this has been happening for a while. Um,
the other issue I do want to focus on is one one woman said to me, um, when can we expect a a solution short-term and long-term on the heated groundwater issue? her 5-year-old son in in this mother
have been burned by hot steam coming out of the manholes on the street. This woman agreed that it's a major public health issue. It's a hazard. Um, is insulating the pipes one of the options? But I I just guess one of my my
final point on this issue is we have to elevate the seriousness of this. It's not just a one person may have been impacted here, another person impacted a few months ago, someone else. This is constant with the steam having a major
public health public safety on a lot of young families in the leather district, Chinatown. A lot of we have a lot of Asians as well in the Leather District as well. Um, so I I really need to elevate this issue in terms of public
health and public safety because residents are concerned and I'm concerned about the seriousness of how hot the temperature of the the water is and residents are getting burned. When a little boy that's five year five years
old gets burned by steam, we have to take that very seriously. So, I I will respond to that. Um, first of all, I I will say thank you. Uh, Mr. Flynn, you uh your office has been very
proactive, right? They have worked very collaboratively um and and you've been very vocal. Uh Melissa calls us whenever there's a a constituent complaint. And I think uh that she would also echo the fact that we do try to be as responsive
as we possibly can be to make sure that we're addressing the issue. Um as far as you know specific incidents, you know, I would have to know more detail around you know the who and the when um to see what the background was. Uh I you know there there there are
instances when uh when vapor secondary vapor can can come out of manholes and it is hot uh without a doubt. There's as I said there's 29 miles of pipe and we are in the city 24/7 365 maintaining
those facilities. do we keep and and I also want to I also want to acknowledge um that you have been very responsive um to my office and I also want to recognize I should have recognized at the beginning a former
colleague and friend uh city councelor Matt Ali is here with us um but whether it's the water and sewer whether it's groundwater whether it's vicinity or anyone else national grid do we keep track of any calls
coming in of someone burned by by steam. Yeah. Majority the majority of calls that uh that we get come in through the 311 system um that will report, you know, whether or not there was uh contact with with a hot surface or or
some type of steam contact. So, yes, there are records of of of all of that. Okay. So, I what I would like to do is because I represent the Leather District in Chinatown, if residents have been
burned by steam um in Chinatown or or the Leather District, um I' I'd like for them to let me know as well so I can keep track of that data and I I would like to share that data with city officials and with
vicinity. I think it is important for us to document every incident to know exactly what is happening, how serious the situation is, but also what our short-term plan is to address it and what our long-term plan is to address
it. But I I don't think I don't think we're there right now in terms of how we're going to resolve it. I think we know what the problem is. I don't think we we have the solution yet on how we're going to ensure I I need 100% compliance
that when someone uses the shower or or or turns the f faucet on, a little a little kid is not going to get burnt. When that when I get that guarantee, that means the problem is solved. But until then, we have to focus on this
because it's a it's a critical a critical emergency as far as I'm concerned. Understood. Um, Christian, how are we going to how are we going to solve this? Um, I just can't I just
can't let this continue, Christian. Um, we have to have we have to have a a plan of action on how we address this. What is the plan, Christian? The plan is to continue to work with the gentlemen that are on either side of me right now. Um, we'll continue to do
that. We'll continue to track down the source of the groundwater and I'm confident that vicinity who is who has not shied away from this in state one in water and sewer has not shied away from it ever. We'll find the solution and we'll mitigate this issue. Um we know what the problem is. It's just a matter
of having the proper design so that once they get in there and fix it, it's done and we don't have to worry about it anymore. Okay. Can can we can I coordinate a meeting that's not not it's not a official city council meeting but with the same group here and with the leather
district residents and with the Chinatown residents specifically on the steam related issue and we can talk about this because I I really need for us to come up with a a plan of action on how we go forward. Is that is that something we're all in agreement on?
Yeah, absolutely I am. Yeah, sure. Okay. Um, Mr. Chair, I don't want to take any more time. Is am I out of time or No. Uh, this Do you have If you have questions, you can ask. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for
give me a couple extra minutes. One one resident said to me um when we do the infrastructure planning um improvements rather, are we able to do it are we able to coordinate all at the same time where if if one issue is
happening? Um are we able to look at other issues that could potentially impact the construction schedule and maybe do it all at the time all at the same time and are we able to do it during the day? Um, that's that's one of the questions one
of my constituents asked me, so I wanted to make sure I followed up. Every every June, Boston Water Sewer sends to every utility or anybody that owns anything under the street and to everybody that owns a street, including every city agency, our intention to put
together a capital plan that'll go to the mayor in November 1st. We ask them to tell us by August what they intend to do. We send them our plan in August of what we intend to do. So every utility
in this city, every roadway agency in the city knows what the Boston Water Sue is planning to do over the next three years to give them time to plan it. There's a reason they can't get to it right away, then we can shift our schedule unless it's an emergency. This has been going on since 1977.
Every year we do it. Every year we hold a public hearing in November and we invite everyone in the city to come to it through a public notice. Um and that will continue to go. So the coordination basically starts with us asking everybody what are you doing. We also
avoid digging up a new street wherever possible. That's one of the most difficult I know it sounds easy but you plan on doing something in two years and for some reason the highway department or whatever purpose there is goes out there and paves it. we have to reschedule our work for five years
later. So, it's very important about the coordination, but the coordination does take place. People do respond to us. They do tell us what's going on. Um, like National Grid needs to know because everything we dig, we dig so deep that we interrupt if they get a cast iron man. So, anything we do bounces back on
them. So, they have to come up with the funding to take care of that. They have to do it right away. They're not allowed to do it later. Other people can defer their maintenance. the MBTA may own conduit and choose not to do it right away. We can't make them do it, but there's no question that coordination
takes place that they're notified every year. One one of Thank you, John. One of the issues I'm I've focused a lot of my energy on and time on pest control. Um, a critical issue. It's a public health issue as far as I'm concerned.
It's a public safety issue. It's a quality of life issue. when we're doing this construction, pest control has to be a critical part of the solution as well. Also, when we're dealing with um the situation in the leather district
with the steam um but pest pest control operations um should be included. We can't ignore pest control. I know no one here is specifically responsible for pest control. It's an issue I've held hearings on, but it's a it's a major
issue as far as I'm concerned in Chinatown. It's a major issue in the Leather District, and I need to continue to work with city colleagues and with the administration uh but with the residents to improve quality of life on
pest control. We can't uh we have to take that issue very seriously as well. Uh Mr. Chair, thank you for giving me an extra couple minutes. And um I I want to say thank you to the panel. I want to say thank you to the chairman um for for hosting this. I want to say thank you to
councelor Mahia, my the original co-sponsor, but especially say thank you to the um residents of the leather district in Chinatown for being here. Thank you, Councelor Flyn, Councelor Luan. Thank you. U Mr. Chair, I don't have any additional questions. I just wanted to
say thank you, John. I don't know if I've ever um um talked to you about this, but I really find the bold ideas that you sometimes present to for the city's uh storm water problems to be really refreshing because I think bold ideas on how we solve these problems are
what we need and you have offered them over the years and I really appreciate that. Um and I want to thank the residents again because I know that it's uh a lot to deal with whenever any of these breaks happen. Um, and I hope that we've given the information and sort of the um, confidence this evening to know
that it's an issue that we're working to address. I also want to thank all of the utility companies. But um as the effects of climate change become more and more apparent to the city, um I think we really do have to start dealing with our storm water issues, thinking about green infrastructure, thinking about gray
infrastructure, and I know two years ago we had a really great hearing on the Boston City Council about um preparations and I I think it's probably time for us to have one again, but just wanted to thank you for your bold ideas and your leadership on these issues. Thank you. No further no actual question, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Madam President. I guess also take the opportunity to just thank the panelists here for for everything you're doing and just the fact that nomen again not not directly representing this area but hearing the challenges that the residents are facing obviously the challenges of our infrastructure every
single day. So want to make sure at I think councelor Flynn mentioned that there's a follow-up meeting to this that there's follow conversation with the residents. So that's that's what I'll say. So again, thank you for that. Um colleagues, any follow-up questions? No, Mr. chair.
No. All right. So, and we don't have any more public testimony. Okay. Could we just um say since we have a few a few minutes? Yeah. So, before we wrap up tonight's hearing,
is there anyone in the room that would like to make any last minute public testimony? Not questions. We not be a Q&A but a a a testifying. Okay. All right. Good. So with that we will do we I'll allow the panelists to
do any closing remarks if you have any or closing statements. I would only reiterate any issues you have call us. We're 247. Again my name is John Sullivan. If you don't feel you're getting any kind of answers right from immediately if you
call on a weekend, you can call me because I answer every call. I answer every email. Thank you. Um I do want to thank the counselors for putting this together, particularly councelor Flynn. I just want to echo the comments of um everybody in the room about Melissa. She is fantastic. She's been wonderful to
work with and gathering everybody together. Um obviously for the public and everybody for coming out and um I'll be available post meeting uh if anybody wants to chat. Thanks. Yeah, just in closing again, I I'd echo the sentiments of John and Christian. Uh, thank you for the opportunity to to
be here and to speak directly to the residents. Uh, I can assure you that we work diligently to maintain the infrastructure that we have. Uh, and and it is it's my life's work. That's what I do. So, uh, again, as John said, if if
there's any issues or or the like, you know, continue to bring them forward. I do understand that there can be frustration, but it a lot a lot of times it's a process uh to get to the solution. Like to say we we look forward to continuing to work together with the
council uh with each other, with the panelists, and with the residents to resolve these and any other issues moving forward. And as I started, I just want to thank you for allowing us to be here in this room, this building, speaking to the community and to the counselors, uh, for
allowing this panel. Uh, there's a lot of effort going on. There's a lot of coordination, but if you ask anyone up here, we can always look to improve and we always strive to improve and we are here for safety. Whether it's for the workers in the field, the residents, the tourists, people coming to the
restaurants, people traveling around, it is all that. So, we look forward to any further dialogue on this. Any final statements? I I also want to say thank you to the panel to to the to the chair, councelor Pepin, for conducting a very informative
hearing today and the preparation he and his team did. Another thank you to city council central staff for their professionalism in being here as well, but especially the the residents of the leather district in Chinatown. We still have a lot of work to do ahead of us.
It's important we work together. I'm going to follow up with a meeting probably in the next maybe in the next 30 days or so. um probably can have it here in Chinatown um with with some of the panelists and figure out a way going
forward short-term and long term. But this is this is one step in the process, but we have a lot of work ahead of us and looking forward to uh continuing to work with you and to represent you as well. Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Madam President.
I just want to again I said I said a lot of things. Just want to thank everyone again, uh, residents of the Leather District, the residents of Chinatown, our incredible central staff, our panelists, um, all of the people who have shown concern. And also, I want to, uh, give a big thank you to Boston Police Department, our very own officer
who's at city hall is here with us today just to make sure that everything is running smoothly. And I want to thank them for the attention that they give to our off-site hearings, which are very difficult to pull off to have these hearings in community. So again, want to thank the Boston Police Department and want to thank our central staff. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Thank you to the residents. Thank you to the panelists. Thank you for former city council me for being here. Thank you to my colleagues. Um with that, this hearing on docket number 0768 is adjourned. [Music] Thank you.
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