--------- Good afternoon. Thank you all for joining. We will get started in just a moment as we clear the waiting room. As a reminder uh to everybody entering from the waiting room, please do remain on mute unless or until uh it is your turn to uh speak before the board.
have just another minute as folks are still trickling in from the waiting room. Great. Good afternoon. This is a hearing before the licensing board for the city of Boston. Today is Tuesday, October 21st, 2025. Today's hearing is being held pursuant to temporary amendments to
the open meeting law. That is what allows us to meet virtually. Today's hearing is being recorded and will be posted to the city of Boston's website. Before I run through how today's hearing uh will be structured, I will introduce chairwoman of the board, Kathleen Joyce.
>> Excuse me. Thank you, Danny. My name is Kathleen Joyce, chair of the Boston Licensing Board. Today, I'm also pleased to be joined by Commissioner Liam Curran and Commissioner Kiana Saxon. >> Thank you very much. Uh please ensure that your audio and visuals are working properly if you will be providing
testimony today. Today's hearing is anformational hearing. As was stated in the hearing notice, the city of Boston >> if we could just make sure Thank you. Uh, as was stated in the hearing notice, the city of Boston has formally accepted
Mass General Laws chapter 138 section 12D as codified by chapter 9 of the acts of 2025, which permits the licensing board to allow lences who are permitted to sell only wines and malt beverages on premise to trade in that beer and wine
license for a non-transferable all alcoholic beverages license. The enabling legislation allows the board to establish additional requirements. Therefore, this hearing has been scheduled as a listening session to afford all lences the opportunity to be heard regarding any
potential changes that may be considered by the board. Anybody in attendance may testify before the board. You will have up to two minutes to do so. I will begin with individuals who signed up to testify through the online registration. After I get through that list, I will call on anyone who has used the raise
hand function in the order that you have raised your hand. Please state your name and affiliation if any. Please limit your testimony to 2 minutes. Uh before I start calling on the list of folks who have signed up ahead of time, um I will just ask Kathleen Joyce if you have any
opening remarks for today's hearing. >> Thanks, Danny. Um I don't really have any opening remarks. I just appreciate people being here with us today. This is um a very exciting uh opportunity for Boston. We have the support of the city
council. We're trying to figure out as a board exactly what this will look like and what will mean to lences. We plan on having this listening session and then having an opportunity opportunity to discuss it at one of our hearings in the next few weeks and then we would hope to
vote on this by sometime in late November. Um, we're trying to understand this too. Figure out how this impacts the way um, we license those that have both restricted and unrestricted
um, beer and wine licenses now. And, um, we're curious to hear from those of you who are contemplating doing this and what it means to you as far as a business decision. >> Thank you. With that, um, we will start running through the list of folks who
have signed up to provide testimony, um, through the registration form. If you did not sign up, but would like to, uh, speak before the board today, you may use the raise hand function on your screen at any time. Um, and I will call on you in the order that I see your hand appear after we've gone through the list of folks who have already registered. The first name who registered signed up
to speak today is Johan Medina. Mr. Medina, are you with us? And if so, um, you may provide your testimony. Does not look like Mr. Medina is with us. The next name who signed up ahead of time was Robert Fitz Harris. Mr. Fitz Harris, are you with us today?
>> I do see. >> All right. Good afternoon. Yes, I am here. How are you? >> Great. Thank you very much. Yes. Please uh just identify yourself and you may have to two minutes to speak to the board. >> Uh good afternoon everybody. Um thank you very much for holding this meeting. Um, I own Rose Alliance over in South
Boston. Uh, we'll be uh 10 years in business next uh next May. Um, I just have one question to clarify and I don't know if um if I missed this already, but um when it says it's non-transferable, I would just automatically assume that
if it gets assigned to a spec specific address that it'll will will stay with that address and it cannot be moved anywhere in the city. Um, which is totally fine. Um, but then I also heard that if you do upgrade to an all alcohol
license, once you cease business, that license needs to be handed back to the city. And I just wanted to clarify that that point. I mean, I paid, you know, quite a substantial amount of money 10 years ago for the beer, wine, and license. So, just to hand that in um for
a straight swap is leaving me and probably every other uh person on here who's looking to do this without uh without an asset when it goes to uh selling their business and uh and moving elsewhere. I just didn't know if um if that was correct or if the board would
maybe consider implementing a timeline in operation before um you know that you know if you operate for say 10 years under that license then that automatically will be signed back over to you as a as an asset. Um that's my only question. I thank you very much and
uh thank you. >> Uh thank you Danny. Now I will attempt to answer this as best I can and then you can correct me. Um, thank you, Mr. Fitzar. And I know you did apply for an all alcohol license, and it is my understanding your beer and wine
license. You would fill out an application for an upgrade. That upgraded license, should you receive it, which you probably I think it's an automatic upgrade. You would become an all alcohol license that would have no value. So, you wouldn't be able to transfer the all alcohol license to
another location, and it doesn't necessarily stay at your address. What you would do when you'd want to close or move is you would then apply to downgrade your license and your beer and wine license that that you had that had value um returns to you. So then that is
when you would receive your value back and you would then be able to sell that beer and wine license on the open market. Danny, is that how you understand? I I do understand that that is a possible maneuver that can be done in terms of the can it be moved to a location. The
legislation does not tie uh the non-transferable alcohol license to a location. It ties it to an owner. Um a change of location does seem like it could be permissible, but the purpose of this hearing today is to hear these exact questions and these comments. So, you know, the board kind of knows what additional conditions we might or might
not want to place on it. So, um thank you for that. Did that answer your questions, Mr. Veris? Uh yes, I did. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. >> The next uh individual who registered ahead of time is Doug Bacon. Uh Mr. Bacon, I do see you are with us. You
will have up to two minutes to let us know your thoughts. >> Thank you for the opportunity. Um I'm the owner of multiple full liquor licenses in the city of Boston, uh which I made a substantial investment for each
and every one of them. and I have debt and I have a capital structure and pricing in my businesses that reflects the investment I've made in the all alcohol liquor licenses. I also own a beer, wine and cordial license which
obviously I would like to be able to upgrade. Um, my concern is for the people like me who have invested a lot in the full liquor licenses and being at risk of a competitor
opening up either in close proximity or somewhere nearby who has a different capital structure, a different investment. And so that is would be a little bit of a competitive disadvantage. Uh, I understand that a lot of people want to see more liquor
licenses in the city of Boston. Uh, you already answered one of my questions, which was, can an owner on transfer revert back to beer and wine? And I think uh, it was answered that yes, you could. Uh, are there any regulations in
place or contemplated that would regulate a new owner? For instance, if I were to upgrade from beer, wine, and cordial to full full liquor, and then next year I get an agreement to sell this license, I request it to be downgraded back to
beer, wine, and cordial so that I can transfer it. And then the new owner, presumably, unless there's some regulation contemplated, could come in the next day and apply to get that license again upgraded. So, uh, I would
like to hear, uh, what the board is considering for a situation like that, and I do appreciate the opportunity to, uh, have a voice on this. Thank you. >> Right now, we're not contemplating any sort of sunsetting of this. We're going to see how it plays out um, and what the
impacts are. I can tell you an upgraded beer and wine license um is not the same as the an upgraded beer and wine license. So, what we're talking about now is one of these um all alcohol um restricted licenses is not the same
as the license that you went and paid for on the open market. Cuz with a restricted all alcohol license that had been upgraded from beer and wine, that person cannot go out and pledge that license. they cannot use it as collateral and it's not an asset. So
there it is it is different as far as as far as as far as a business um asset. >> Okay. I I do understand and that is
helpful. Uh but further to the point, um are there any restrictions contemplated or is this regulation permanent and forever for all beer and wine licenses citywide? >> That's what we're trying to figure out. We have we haven't we haven't gotten to
that granular level of detail. We are going off of the language that was just adopted by city council. >> Okay. And there are is it 900 beer and wine licenses citywide? >> There are about 375 beer and wickedly.
>> Okay. Okay. And will you accept further comments and suggestions after this? >> Yes, the record will be held open. Chairman Joyce, do you know how long we will keep the record open for? >> So, that was part of um what we're going to talk about today is I'm anticipating keeping the record open for several
weeks. I would expect the board to have a discussion, a public discussion um sometime in November with a vote towards the end of November. This is our busy time as all of you know we're entering our renewal season. So,
um trying to this is has been difficult for us to figure out a way to sort of implement it at the same time while we're doing our our due diligence with our regular um responsibilities in the office. So, we we want to take our time, make sure we get it right. So with that, the record will be held
open and any written correspondence or testimony can be sent to licensing board of boston.gov that'll be considered in addition to whatever is shared um today prior to the board's discussion on the record. Uh and then you know eventual adoption of whatever regulations come from this.
The next name who has registered ahead of time is Noren Maloney. Uh Miss Maloney, if you are with us today, you may please provide your testimony to the board. >> Hi. How are you? Um, one of our questions was just answered there, but uh, we just wanted to be here today to
basically thank for the opportunity. We think it'll be a good opportunity for a business going from the beer and wine to a full. It would keep people in our area staying around our area in the Fenway area. So, um, yeah, just for
representing the area. So >> Norin, what is your business? Just so we can >> uh Bop production, sorry, the BBOP. >> Okay. >> Uh we're on Boilson Street. So um in our area there isn't too many liquor licenses. So we are getting people that will come in and go elsewhere because we
don't have the full liquor license. So that's about it really, but I appreciate the opportunity and we will wait and see, I guess. >> Thank you, Noren. Thank you for um being here today and for that testimony. The next name who signed up to testify is
George Lewis. Uh Mr. Lewis, if you are with us, you may provide your testimony. Do not see you. The next individual who signed up is Masimo Terry. Okay. And then the final name who had signed up ahead of time is Warren
Mustakio. Are you with us? Here we go. Yep. I'm going to ask you to unmute and you may please uh let us the board know your thoughts. >> Here we go. >> Can you hear me? >> We can hear you. >> Hi. Uh thank you for the opportunity. Uh
it means a lot to our business that um you know we don't lose lose any customers that um people that have full liquor license next door h have it's a it's a great opportunity and um I the
the the one question I have is um when you talk about um the licenses not being transferred and the license I have now was a beer wine cordial which the city gave me 8 years ago. um if I decide I'm
getting older a couple years down the road that I like to uh sell the business um the the license that you guys uh the city gave me would that can I when I sell the business can the new people
that take over uh use that license I think this gets to the answer you gave earlier I don't know if you want to um help out with that? >> That's a really good question. Um I think Danny explained it with a little bit more of a finer point. From
our understanding, these are not attached to a particular um address. And um I guess we would we would work with you to to make sure that we're putting
you in the best position possible if that's what you wanted to do. But I I do think they would have to downgrade if I'm not mistaken, Danny, if they were going to sell cuz we're not increasing our cap. Um these are like a these will still be a beer and wine. So
it sounds like your license is a restricted beer and wine license as it is right now. beer, wine, and cordials. >> Yes. >> Okay. That the city gave you. So, even if you didn't upgrade, if you were to close, that license comes back to the city. Um,
if you were going to sell it, and that license really has no dollar value attached to it. So, a new owner could come in and buy your business and then they would have to apply to us anyways for a license
that that fit the North End, for instance, that could go into the North End. >> Um, that's a confusing way of trying to say the you can't sell the license with the with the business necessarily.
>> Well, I'm not looking to sell it for uh a value. It's just that if you have a restaurant and you decide that, you know, you want to move on, um, retire, it's hard to sell a restaurant that you can't serve a glass of wine,
>> right? Um, I think we're moving to a world where if you wanted a license, we would be able to work with you as a seller or as with the new owner to get a license in that location.
how that works. We're not we don't we don't have clarity on that or a road mapap on how that would work. But Danny, why don't you >> Yes. >> Whatever you can for clarity. >> Sure. So, I think the question here is if you were to upgrade this license to a non-transferable all alcohol license,
what happens at the end if you want if you are going out of business, what to do with that business? Um, as the chair said at the beginning, we do envision that um, operators who take advantage of this may be able to apply to change their category back to a beer and wine
license to then transfer that license. That may be possible. That may be contemplated unless the board um, puts additional restrictions that would prohibit that. I don't know if that is being contemplated right now. That's the purpose of this hearing today is to hear from you all um to best inform the board
as to what restrictions, conditions, if any to put on top of this. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. Um I do see a hand raised from Obi and I apologize um about not being able to pronounce your last
name, Ono Ano. Um Obie, if you're with us, you may please uh let your thoughts be heard. >> Yeah, you got it. That that was a proper pronunciation. >> Great. Um, I've been trying to get a liquor license off like off and on for like the last two years. Um, I'm pretty
close to closing on one right now. Um, but sellers have so much leverage. I was like a day away from signing and then they added all these new stipulations and blah blah blah. So, I had to pull back. Uh, Doug, I heard you say you got a bunch of liquid licenses. I don't know
if you have any for sale. If you do, I'll talk to you on the side if you're open to that. But I need to move pretty quickly. And um just finally like how long after the November vote would the application process open, do you guys think? A
>> as soon as the board adopts final regulations, the process could start immediately. The application already exists. It is a change of category application that is already available on the city of Boston's website and the ABCC's website. the application, the community process, all of that already
exists now. The board just would not be able to issue this upgraded license until it had uh formally adopted this. So that's this is the first stage in that. As soon as the board adopts some sort of regulations in November, it becomes available immediately. >> Okay. So, and they would be able to
issue it immediately after the application process in November. >> It would still need to be approved by both the board and the ABCC. So, after all of that happens is when a license would actually be able to be issued that had been upgraded. And how long of a process do you guys anticipate that being?
>> That's a great question. That's that's always a little bit of a a sticky point. Um, we know our process is usually we have to hold a hearing on an application within 30 days. Um, if things go smoothly with uh the ABCC review, could be a few weeks if there are, you know,
issues with the application could take a whole lot longer than that. It's um it's a bit of an open question sometimes. >> Okay. And then um finally uh like I said, I'm in the process of trying to purchase a full liquor license. I'd be happy to do it. The money is like crippling, but um I'm super close to
opening and I'd like to get that done as soon as possible. But if if that does fall through in the next couple of days, I haven't formally like applied for a wine and beer license yet. If I do that and I receive it before the November date, which isn't likely because I know
how long it takes, but whenever all that is done, can I apply for an upgrade with my new wine and cords license? >> Yes, we believe so. Can you let us share with us where you're hoping to open? >> Downtown Boston. Okay.
>> Um downtown Boston and somewhere in the theater district. We're good to go on everything. We have the money. We have the lease pretty much formally signed. It's just that this liquor license seller is trying to like put the screws to us last minute and like reig on
certain things that we discussed. So that's kind of why I'm in the position I'm in right now. But uh yeah, those are all my questions. >> Great. Thank you. Um I do not there were we've gone through everyone who had signed up ahead of time. Uh I don't see
any other hand I Great. I do see hand raised. Steve Clark. Um thank you for being with us. you please uh provide your testimony. >> Uh good afternoon uh city of Boston. I'm Steen Clark. I'm from the Massachusetts Restaurant Association. Uh I just want to thank uh the city for the diligent
process that they're undertaking. Uh I know this is a new type of legislation, a new type of upgrade and there's going to be some challenges. So, thank you all for navigating that process. Um, also as we've been partnering on the roll out with the new liquor licenses in the
restricted areas, uh, we're happy to offer our services as well as operators navigate this process in partnership with the city. Uh, it is a different operational um, animal when you go from a beer and wine to an all alcohol. Um, probably a smaller step up from a beer,
wine cordial, but a full step up from a beer and wine. So, there are some considerations uh, as part of that. Uh the two issues I just wanted to flag and one of them seems to be addressed is the first one was the ability to downgrade the license. Uh it is important for people to be able to transfer out of
their license uh and sell their business. Um at the end of the day, most people buying a restaurant if they're not buying a liquor license, they're basically buying some used restaurant equipment and a name. And so people do need to have the ability to get out of that license. So, um, so I think that's
a good thing that people can downgrade and then sell that that beer and wine license. And then the second question is, is the board giving any consideration to putting a time frame on how long a license holder has a beer and wine license before they're able to upgrade? Obviously, existing licenses
have been in effect, but uh you can see the scenario where someone goes out and buys a beer and wine on the open market, moves it to an area where they were trying to get an all alcohol license, whether it's the North End, Seapport, Back Bay, and then upgrades to an all
alcohol. So, is there any consideration um being given to how long uh a beer, wine, and cordial license is held for uh before it is upgraded? and it doesn't need to be answered now but just wanted to raise that as a potential concern as we look at different challenges that are out there.
>> Thanks Steve that is something we have heard from people about. So we are thinking about it. >> Thank you. Thank you for the partnership and yeah I look forward to you know hearing any other thoughts you might have. Um before I call on the next hand raised I just do see a question in the
chat from Annette. Does the closing time you currently have change with the upgraded license? Thank you. Um it if all you're doing is just applying for an upgrade, then the hour would stay the same. If you're also applying to change the hour, you can do that as well. It would also be part of your community process. It would just be a separate transaction that you're applying for at
the same time. So you could apply to upgrade your license and change your hour. Otherwise, your hour would stay the same. Hope that uh was clear. Uh hand raised I see from Anthony Lawrence. Mr. Lawrence, uh you may uh please unmute yourself and provide your testimony.
>> Hey, how are you? thanks for having this meeting and uh it's an incredible opportunity to have the chance to upgrade. Um I'm with Pico in the South End and I just wanted to be clear if are you saying that we're able to apply for
an upgrade now and then no decisions will be made until you guys set all the rules or should we wait until all the rules are set and then apply a little bit farther down the road? >> So sorry, General D. How would you >> No, go ahead. Go ahead, Danny. >> I was going to say there there is there
is nothing in the law currently that would prevent you and up the upgrade application exists. Community process could be started through the office of neighborhood services any time. Um the board could hear your application anytime. The board would not be able to issue this license or even grant the
upgrade and pass it on to the ABCC until all the kinks were worked out, until the regulations were made. Um because we are not quite contemplating yet what might be in these regulations. it might behoove you to to maybe wait to just make sure that they line up with your business decision that you want to make.
Um, that's I think that's really up to to you and how how much you want to do this ahead of time. Um, you want to say anything different. >> Okay, Mr. Lawrence, did that answer your question? >> Yeah, it's perfect. Thank you, >> Danny. >> Yes. Should anyone considering this uh
reach out to ONS or reach out to their neighborhood uh groups and look about getting on schedules for the next time they hold meetings and stuff like that? >> Yeah, any change of category application does require um a butter notifications which also generally triggers a
community process. If you would like to get started on that now to Commissioner Kerman's point, you can reach out to ONS at any time. You can reach out to your neighborhood leaison. You can reach out to one of the three um community engagement specialists. Um all of their contact information is on their website
boston.govs. You can also reach out to us and we will put you in touch with who the right person is in your neighborhood. Um but you can start the community process by reaching out to ons at any time even before you put an application in. Uh Warren, I will come back to you because I do see your hand raised. So Warren,
come on. Uh yeah, you can unmute yourself. >> Hi. um about 6 7 months ago um I don't know if it was January or February um we went through the process and we were deferred
but we had an abund neighborhood waterfront council and the North Den waterfront resident council and we we went through this process. We put all the flyers out. It was only seven months ago. Would we have to do that again?
>> Most likely not. Your community process would probably still stand. However, it would be worth just reaching out to ONS to confirm that. They're the ones who would, you know, be able to best advise you as to whether or not they want you to just, you know, reach back out to Nura, Nunic, or Flyer. Again, I I can't
speak for them. Um, but a recent community process will likely still stand. >> And I echo what Danny says. We would try to work with those of you who have already applied for an all alcohol license so you're not getting bogged down with more process. But um that's my my position. Uh we just have to see
where O andS is on that. >> Okay, that's a super question. What's O ands? >> The office of neighborhood services. So that's your >> the mayor the the mayor's office. >> Yes, >> exactly. Mayor's office of neighborhood services. >> Community liaison. >> That's the one we in acronyms around here. Apologies.
>> Thank you very much. Thank you for answering my question. Sure. >> That's a good question. >> Uh the next hand I see raised is from Frank Zanti. Uh you may please um provide your testimony. >> Hi. Um yeah, thank you for the
opportunity. Um sorry in my car as I'm driving around. Um stopped right now though for safety purposes. Um I just had one quick question as we're talking about this and I know um you know a lot of it had been about like beer and wine. We recently uh upgraded to a cordial
license a little over two years ago. Um would those also be um have the opportunity to Okay, they would. All right. I just I just wanted to clarify that as we were going on. Yeah. >> Yes. A cordial license is is a type of beer and wine license. So it's the malt
wine and cordial license. So yes. Okay. >> I just wanted to make sure. Perfect. Thank you. Sure. Kieran Alteri, uh you are the next hand raised. Do you may please provide your testimony. Hi everyone. Thanks thanks first of all for doing this. I really appreciate it.
This is uh super helpful. Um just a couple of questions. Um the first one is um with respect to the regulations that you will consider after you know this meeting. Curious whether you um would go
with a formal comment period. you know, in other words, send out some kind of proposed regulations and allow those to be commented on given the kind of widespread effect of of this great um uh or at least, you know, widely affect uh
this this program. Um that's that's question one. So that's that's the first one. Another one um was partially asked, but the thing that that I would like to ask is whether with respect to all of these new um applications for upgrade
whether you would consider having some kind of streamlined ONS process. Um given that there'll probably so be so many. Um I know that that's an ONS department that's not yours, but I think it's something that maybe might be of interest to people given the ownorous nature of the ONS process and all the
community meetings. Yeah, we'll get to the the second question first which is that really is an O ands question. Um I think it would be question that we can certainly work out with them. I know so many of these really are address specific. Who your abutters are your abutters meeting audience might be different. Um and also
if the applications are all coming in around the same time there might be an opportunity for streamlining but I think there is a little bit of just um how that would actually work between our office ons and the applicants to make that work. Um it there could be an appetite, but it could also be a for
conversation. Uh and then to your first question, the draft uh regulations will certainly be made public. They will appear on a voting agenda. Um any edits will also be made public. Um as to whether there will be a formal comment period. I I that's at the discretion of of the board and the chair. Um so I I
don't want to answer that for for them if there's any thoughts here. >> Just one more question. I I didn't ask if I still have some time on the two-minute clock. Um and that is when I was it was last before um the board I
think there was discussion of a map and I wonder there was some talk of a map of all the um different types of licenses being in the works. I'm curious whether that has been produced and if it's still in the works. >> Um it does not exist at the moment.
There is a, you know, publicly available CSV file on Analyze Boston of all of the licenses across the city. Um, you know, it's easy to plug those into, you know, make your own Google map, but um, there's not a formal map of all the liquor licenses that's been produced for us yet. >> Thank you.
>> Sure. Um, question in the chat from Elizabeth Lashway. Does the risk exist that a beer wine license might not be avail excuse me might not be available in the quota when someone seeks to downgrade to a beer and wine license? Um our understanding from reading this
legislation is that upgrading your license does not impact the quota at all. So that beer and wine license that you have upgraded kind of remains in limbo until um either the business closes and the license comes back as a beer and wine license or the lency
decides to downgrade into that same beer and wine license that they held originally. The quota doesn't otherwise change that beer and wine license doesn't really go away. It is kind of held there in waiting for the duration of the license he upgraded.
Uh Kieran Nagel with a hand raised. you may please provide your testimony. >> Uh thank you and good afternoon and what what a fantastic opportunity for everybody. So and thank you for all this information. Uh just
quick question in relation to annual license fees. So would the upgrade affect the annual license fee renewal? >> That is a question that I think would be determined by the board. I believe the legislation allows the board to set uh fees. As of right now, the contemplation
would be the renewal fee would be based on whatever type of license you have at that time. Um, current thinking is if you've upgraded your license to an alcohol license, you would pay the renewal fee for an all alcohol license. If your license is beer and wine, your annual renewal fee would be for a beer and wine. If you have a cordial, your annual renewal fee will be based on
that. That is the current thinking unless the board changes that um as they adopt regulations here. >> Okay. So, so then us having a beer and wine license, then the renewal fee would remain the same if we upgraded.
>> No, if you have an all alcohol license, your renewal fee would then be for an all alcohol license. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah, that that makes sense. Great. >> Thanks, Danny. Cheers. >> Thank you. >> Again, I don't see any other hands
raised. Um, feel free to raise your hand, use the chat function. Um, that has been working out pretty well so far. Carla Gomez, I do see your hand is raised. You may please go ahead. I just asked you to unmute. Something should have popped up on your screen.
There it is. Sorry. Sorry about that. My name is Carla Gomez. I'm the owner of Terry and Antico Forno in the north end of Boston. I've been in the restaurant business for 33 years and I've been applying for um a full liquor license since 2008. And um each time that I've
applied, I've been denied every single time. Um when looking at this this proposal, I understand coming from a restricted um beer, wine, and cordial license that was given to you by the city. Um, I understand where you're
coming from as a as having a restricted license, but people like me that bought their unrestricted license, um, you know, I have a strong opposition uh to it, like I have an unrestricted beer, wine, and cordial license and, um,
trading it in for a restricted non-transferable all alcohol license. And when I purchased my beer, wine, and cordial, I paid real money for it. And that license is not just a permit that was given to me by the si city. It's actually an asset, you know, with resale
value. It's what gives my uh my business long-term value. And I understand what you're trying to do here. But I look at it this way. If the goal is to create fairness and opportunity across all neighborhoods, then the solution isn't to confiscate what existing owners have
already earned, you know, with their unrestricted licenses that they paid for. I think the fair and logical approach is to grant unrestricted all alcohol licenses to those of us who have already have unrestricted beer wine and cordial licenses so we can compete on
equal footing with other restaurants in our neighborhoods and throughout the city of Boston. So why is that not being considered for people with unrestricted licenses who have paid for their beer wine and cordial licenses? I understand where you're coming from with the
restricted because that was given to they didn't pay for it but now I'm talking about unrestricted beer wine and cordial licenses. I think there should be a difference for those people. >> Thank you for that comment. I will just say oh sorry just quickly I just wanted
to say the the proposal that passed the legislature um signed by the governor passed city council and was signed by the mayor does not make that distinction. Um it treats all of these upgrades the same. any type of beer and wine license upgraded into an all- alcohol license taking advantage of this
new provision that all alcohol license is automatically non-transferable. Um there isn't really an option for us in adding regulations here to treat restricted or non-restricted licenses differently. This is the legislation that was passed. Um chair, anything you wanted to say?
>> You um hit the nail on the head. All I was going to say is we can only work with what we were given and the legislature only gave us the tools to upgrade them to restricted licenses. >> So, one other question. I have an unrestricted license. I give it back to the city of Boston. Where does that unrestricted license go? Does it become
a restricted license or does it go to another neighborhood in another in another part of the city to another person? So, that's >> as an underrestricted license. So that's the what I was trying to explain and I I know I wasn't very um
um clear. So let me use one of the example that Carla just shared. Carla has an unrestricted beer and wine license and she wants it to be all alcohol. So she applies for a category upgrade. That unrestricted beer and wine license.
The category is changed to an all alcohol license. Your license doesn't necessarily don't don't picture it as going somewhere and being reissued to another neighborhood. Your license still remains the same, but while you're using it as an all alcohol license, it's being treated as an all all alcohol license.
If you should want to sell that license in the future because you bought it and it has value, you just have to come back to the board and apply to downgrade the license. So that restricted all alcohol license now becomes your unrestricted beer and wine license. So, what you
started off with is what you will end up with once you apply for this upgrade and then in the future downgrade it. We're not reissuing licenses. Our cap hasn't changed. We're just changing the categories of what these beer and wine licenses are for as long as you want to
use them as an all alcohol license. When you decide you no longer want to operate with all alcohol and you want to sell it, then you apply for a downgrade and then you have your license back and whatever the value is of that beer and mine license on that day is the value of
your license. So these are business decisions for you. We can't predict, we're not economists, what's going to happen to the value of your licenses. All we can all we can do is to work with what the legislature gave us and the only tool we have right now is to upgrade them to restricted all alcohol
licenses. >> Okay. May I ask just one more questions? All right. So that that clarifies a lot for me. Um so I have a 1:00 a.m. beer wine and cordial license. I would get that 1 a.m. beer wine and cordial unrestricted license back. Yes.
>> When I turned it Okay, that Thank you very much. >> Yeah. Don't think about it as turning it in. Think about it as downgrading it. >> Okay. Okay. And >> you can change a category. >> Mhm. Thank you. >> Thank you. Commissioner Kerman, did you unmute yourself earlier? I just want to
make sure you had a chance to talk. >> I did. Uh I think I have another way to think about how this would work is re really uh so some the example of Miss Gome is um say she operated for a number
of years all alcohol what this would mean is if she marketed her business to sell the the buyer wouldn't have an automatic right to to maintain that business in that place as an all alcohol license. Now, based on what we're
setting up as a scheme here, it's very likely that person would have a right to try to upgrade it again depending on what regulations we have. But they wouldn't have an absolute right, which would restrict that license in a way which wouldn't make it quite as valuable as a unrestricted all alcoholic license,
right? And that would affect the value of the open market. >> I think that's what people are concerned about. What's going to happen to the value of their licenses? And we can't predict that no matter what. But what we're telling you is that your license that you upgrade isn't being reissued
anywhere else in the city. We're just changing the category for as long as you would like it to be changed. And we can change the category again should you want to sell it or for some other business reason, you know, no longer operate with all alcohol.
>> Doug, yes, see your hand raised. Um, go ahead. >> Thank you. Uh just a couple of questions and I apologize I I don't have the new law in front of me. Um did the state provide any rules or guidelines or criteria under which a license could be
upgraded to full liquor or that the board may decide to refuse or decline to upgrade a license from beer and wine to full liquor? As we know, public need is is a standard that's often referred to at the licensing board under state law.
Um, I just wondered if if the state provided any regulations or is the board contemplating outlining regulation because it would be very helpful to owners and neighborhood groups and community members and elected
officials if we could look at a set of rules or regulations or guidelines on that issue. And then my second question is, are there any regulations about what corporate changes might trigger um an
inability to transfer a license? For example, could someone transfer it to a family member or could the ownership of shares be changed from 5050 to 6040 with two owners? Um those are my two questions. Thank you.
>> So, uh take the two questions in order. Um, did the state give us anything beyond what's in the legislation? Um, no. What the tools we have to work on is the legislation that was passed? Um, is the board considering uh additional regulations on top of that. Um, that's what today is is to hear from lenses
before the board contemplates any additional regulations. Um, you are correct for any change of category. Public need is always the standard. That will continue to be the standard. That is state law across the board. For any change of category, this would be included in that. Um, and your second
question, again, I think this is kind of up to the board, but since um the uh kind of inception of non-ransferable licenses in 2006, this board has always been of the mind that non-ransferable means no more than a 49% ownership
change. Right? The the ownership of a license cannot change more than 49% over the life of that license. Otherwise, that is essentially a transfer that would be barred by a non-transferable license. Hope that's helpful. Hope that is in line with the board's thinking. I saw a
couple nods, so I think that's good. Great. Um, any further questions? I see a hand raised. Jordan Vega, Mr. Vega, if you're with us, you may please provide your testimony. >> Hello. Uh, thank you all for being here.
Pardon me. I'm just at the gym. I was advised uh to be on this call and I just had a quick question. uh new manager at Serbia Boston and downtown. Um it was under my notion that we have a
full alcohol liquor license and I just wanted to know if this is going to affect that at all. Uh that's pretty much my only question. >> Sorry, I'm not not sure.
>> Yeah, I didn't hear the question. My apologies. Um, can you hear me? >> We can hear you. >> Okay, perfect. So, basically, we have a full liquor license under my understanding and I just wanted to make sure um for this hearing if there's
anything that's going to affect that, if ultimately um this is necessary for me to be here or not. I don't think so because it's for it's more about people who have beer and wine
licenses that would like to have all alcohol licenses. >> Okay. I had a feeling but just wanted to be sure. So, well, thank you all. >> Thank you for being here. Um, give a moment for other folks to jump in and
raise their hands if they have questions. I do see a question in the chat. I think both of it's a two-part question. I think both of them have been addressed already, but um just to reiterate from Bradley Fredericks, is there any thoughts of putting a time restriction between the time one purchases of a beer and wine license and the time one can convert that into a
full restricted license? Um it's been asked uh a couple times. I think the the board is here today to to hear what is on people's minds. I don't think that is necessarily contemplated yet. Um chairman, looks like you want to mute yourself. >> Did you want to say something? >> No.
>> Okay, great. Um, and then the second half is why would someone pay for a full unrestricted license when they could just backdoor a full license out of a beer and wine? This has also been mentioned a few times, the kind of advantages and disadvantages to having an unrestricted license that could be transferred. The market value, the
ability to collateralize that pledge for a loan, um, etc. versus having a restricted all alcohol license that would not have those abilities, would not be able to be transferred or sold on the open market for the same value as an all- alcohol license, would only ever
possibly have the value of a beer and wine license if it is downgraded um prior to a sale. I think that is that's that's really um the answer to that question. But also, we don't set the value of licenses on the open market. These are
open market considerations that anyone considering buying a license needs to go through themselves um with them and their business uh partners. >> Yeah. To reiterate what I think the board has said a few times here, while this is an opportunity, all of this is a
business decision that will need to be made on an individual basis for every business. I know we are happy to um help with the application process. The city's small business office, I think, is happy to help with technical assistance, business advising. Um, but ultimately, these are individual business decisions
that each business will need to make on their own. Um, I don't see any other hands raised. Please, you know, if you have any further questions or thoughts, uh, please do use the raise your hand function. Also, feel free to type anything in the chat. And if you would rather submit a testimony in writing,
the record will be held open for, um, at least another two weeks. Um, so please do submit anything in writing to licensing board@boston.gov. I'll pause for just a second there to see if there's anybody else who um has any thoughts they would like to share with the board about this today.
Great. If that is the end of public testimony, I'll just ask if um there's any any thoughts from the board before we wrap up. With that, um, thank you all for being here today. Again, public testimony will certainly be accepted, um, for at least a couple more weeks. Any draft that the
board is considering of regulations following uh, the comment period will be publicly posted with the voting agenda at the meeting where the board will be discussing it. Um once this is passed I do imagine an advisory will go out to all lences letting them know what the process looks like. We will certainly be
in touch if you have any questions. You all know how to reach our office. Um so with that if there are no further thoughts or further questions that will adjourn this hearing. Thank you all and we look forward to hearing from you. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. Part: 2
Good morning. Thank you all for joining me. We'll get started in just a moment. As a reminder, when you are entering from the waiting room, please do remain on mute unless or until you are testifying before the board. Good morning. This is a hearing before
the licensing board for the city of Boston. Today is Tuesday, October 21st, 2025. Today's hearing is being held pursuant to temporary amendments to the open meeting law. That is what allows us to meet virtually. Today's hearing is being recorded and will be posted to the city of Boston's website. Before I
review procedural matters, I will introduce chairwoman of the board, Kathleen Joyce. >> Good morning. My name is Kathleen Joyce, chair of the Boston Licensing Board. Today I'm also joined by Commissioner Kiana Saxon and Commissioner Liam Curran. >> Thank you. Please ensure that your audio
and visuals are working properly. If you will be providing testimony this morning, we'll call each item in the order that it appears on this morning's agenda. Um, with one exception, item number one will not be heard this morning. It has been uh rescheduled at the request of the Lency.
After I call each item, I will ask who is present on behalf of the lency, who is present on behalf of the Boston Police Department, and whether there are any other individuals with firsthand knowledge of the alleged incident who wish to testify. I will then swear in all parties. After that, the police report will be read
into the record, and the Lency or their representative will have the opportunity to make a brief statement followed by questions by the chair and commissioners. All testimony will be limited only to those individuals with firsthand personal knowledge of the alleged incident. Uh once again item number one uh has
been continued and rescheduled at the request of the lency. We will therefore be calling item number two Dunboy Inc. doing business as MJ O' Conor's Irish Pub located at 27 Columbus A. Date of the incident May 25th 2025 assault and
battery employee on patron in violation of mass general law chapter 138 section 64 and chapter 265 section 13A. Who's present on behalf of the lency? Good morning, Attorney Green, Madam Chair, members of the board, excuse me, Dennis Quilty, attorney representing the Lency
with me this morning, Mike Carlilele and Dez Sherry, both uh of the Lency entity. Good morning. >> Good morning. And I see Mr. Carile and Mr. Sherry. Thank you. Who's present on behalf of the Boston Police Department? Uh,
>> good morning, Sergeant Detective John Fitzgerald, Area A1, representing the Boston Police Department. Thank you. As such, detective, are there any other individuals with firsthand knowledge of the alleged incident who wish to testify? Can you all please raise your right hand?
>> Uh, Mr. Carla, there we go. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> I do. >> Thank you. Sergeant Detective Fitzgerald, if you could please uh read the report into the record for the board. >> Okay. Uh, incident number 252041683.
Uh, at about 12:42 a.m. on Sunday, May 25th, uh, 2025, officers Roa and Drew were assigned to patrol the area of 20 Park Plaza on a code 19. This assignment was response to heightened security around the uh, Jewish community um, Israeli
consulate. While on patrol, officers were flagged down by a concerned citizen reporting somebody with a knife in front of MJ Oconor located at 27 Columbus A. Also assisting on scene where officers Ket Spelman of the 102, the Lockwood,
the 426, and Ribero and Heran. The officers drove around the block the block 227 Columbus A. Upon arrival, they observed a staff member from MG Ocon is actively restraining a male on the ground. The s the staff uh members stated that the individual was in
possession of a knife and for safety of all parties to conduct a thorough investigation. The suspect identified as Frank Michael Adabu was immediately placed in handcuffs. He was pat down for and first for weapons which yielded
negative results. Officer Drew spoke with the three employees of MJ O' Connor Ahmad Sullean, David Solomon and John Lloyd. They reported that the suspect had repeatedly attempted to enter the restaurant appearing heavily intoxicated. When denied entry, the suspect became aggressive and physically
assaulting the staff. One of the employees observed a chrome colored object on the ground which they believed to be a knife. Fearing for their safety, the employees kicked the object away and with the assistance of other staff physically restrained on the ground and the excuse me, the
suspect till officer's arrival. Officers conducted a search of the area for the reported uh chrome object uh which were they were unable to be found. Officer Roker and Abadu um spoke with Mr. Abdu who claimed that he
was assaulted by eight individuals without pro provocation. He stated that he was staying at 212 Stewart Street and was in Boston for the weekend watching his son's lacrosse game at Gillette Stadium the following day. Denied ever possessing a knife. Officer Roa observed Mr. Abadu had visible blood
around his nose and mouth, appeared to have difficulty speaking. Due to his injuries, EMS requested to the scene. EMS evaluated Mr. Adabou on scene and later transferred him to Tus Medical Center for further evaluation. And that's the uh extent the report.
>> Thank you very much. Attorney Quilty, would you like to address the alleged incident? >> Yeah, thank you. If I may, uh, detective, excuse me, did you, um, did you file a license premise inspection notice? >> I did, sir. >> You did. And in that document, it
indicates that police were called uh, and by whom it's Desmond Sherry, who's the employee who's with us today. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> And, uh, and you also indicated that the management cooperated with the police. >> They did. Yes. >> Okay. And to your knowledge, sir, we're
my information is that this gentleman approached uh and was not let in when he first attempted to get into the establishment because staff uh considered that he he he appeared to be quite intoxicated. They basically told him he couldn't get in, asked him to
leave, he wouldn't leave, and then he got into an altercation with the staff people. Is that what you understand to have happened? >> That's how we understand it. Yes. >> Okay. And the um excuse me staff staff
did call uh 911 cooperated with you and um was there ever was it the knife or any such thing ever found? >> There was no knife found and yes um I think the officers were flagged down and 91 was called sim simultaneously. >> Okay. All right. And did you interface
we have Mr. Carla and Mr. Sherry with us today. Did you interface with Mr. Sherry? I presume you did. You knew you had his name for calling the police. >> Yes, I Yes, I did. >> Okay. Uh, thank you, sir. I have no further questions. >> Let me just briefly, Madam Chair, ask
Mr. Sherry to um get on the screen here. >> Yes, >> Dez. There you are. Dez, just just uh state your name for the record and your responsibilities at the Lency premises. >> De Sherry, I'm the general manager here at the licensed premises. Okay. And and
Dez, on the night in question, did you uh were you around? Were you there when this incident occurred? >> I was present. Yes. >> And did you call 911 as a result of what you saw this gentleman trying to do? >> Yes, I did. >> Okay. And then you stood by and
cooperated with the police? >> Yes. >> Okay. The board may have some questions for you, sir. Hold on for us. >> Thank you. And madam chair, I just want to confirm I I believe we provided the video of this incident as well as it was
provided to BPD. >> Yes. Um the video was received has been shared with the board and placed on file. >> Great. With that, we'll see if there are any questions at this time. Chairman Joyce. >> Uh excuse me. Thank you. So, watching
the video, um the the um patron I'm guessing is he's the one wearing the white baseball cap backwards, >> correct? Yes. >> Okay. And about 4 minutes or so into it, we see before
he's like approaching the door. Even before that, I guess what's Can you talk me through the video? Cuz what I'm looking at quickly is um staff wearing black uniforms. Um I see at least one push. I see them
going behind a truck with the guy, the guy falling to the ground. I do see them look to pick something up on the ground and kick it. So can you does is there anyone here that can walk me through the video? What happened? Because looking at this um >> I don't see him attacking I don't see
him assaulting the staff at all. just trying to figure out if the response is appropriate. >> I think I I I I can't speak to her. I wasn't there obviously, but Mr. Carile may be able to or Mr. Sher, I'm not sure. Our our reports are that, you
know, he basically pulled the door open and basically our our fellows, you know, thought the guy was attacking them at that moment in time because they had already asked him to leave multiple times. >> Do you have internal reports from this incident? Again, the video has no sound,
so I'm just I see your staff pushing throwing the guy to the ground. So, I'm just curious what I'm missing. And the I appreciate the video cuz it's it's helpful, but sometimes your internal reports are more helpful, too.
>> Uh Mick, can you respond to that? I do not know. I do not have any internal reports. I I don't believe an internal report exists, but in my conversations with Dez, I believe there was back and forth verbally with um our staff and the
individual, then the staff went inside, closed the doors to kind of bar entry, and he managed to rip the door open, and that's when they came out. >> Okay. >> Excuse me. Excuse
me. Hello. Um, I'm sorry to >> Excuse me, ma'am. Who are who are you? >> We cannot hear anything you're you're saying, ma'am. Your your audio doesn't work. We are right now um in the middle of a hearing on MJ Oconors. If you are here to testify on that matter, you will
need to identify yourself. >> My name is Michelle Jones and I have a case against um Mr. Simmons and I believe they send me the wrong information in mail with the wrong meeting ID. >> Okay. This is the licensing board for
the city of Boston. Um if you would like to call our office if you think there is something that you received incorrectly here, um I I don't believe there's any anything else why why you would be here. Um, you can call our office 617-635-4170. Someone will be able to help you. Um,
>> um, you you went a little too fast. >> 617 635 4170. >> Okay. Thank you. So, just in case, my name is Michelle Jones. So, to be noted in case Thank you. >> Thank you, Miss Jones. Uh, we will
return to um the hearing regarding MJ O Connors. Um, chairman dress, do you have any further questions? >> I think so. And maybe the question is for Mr. Sherry. Um, or for Mike Carile. So, there was a back and forth verbal argument outside. Staff went inside, closed the door. The man
came in and opened the door. Do the do these um staff members of yours, do they all still work there? Like, did you see any issues with this? Did you have any followup afterwards? Do they did you retrain them? what I'm seeing um
calls calls it calls into question some of the perhaps operations that are going on there. So I'm trying to give you an opportunity to walk us through this >> and so you mean did we retrain people after this or >> No. Do did do you think that the force
that was used against this one single individual was appropriate by your staff? >> A verbal argument in opening the door >> was it appropriate? We did talk to the staff, but they thought that this individual did have a knife at the time. Okay. Um it is right
behind the our door is behind that tree, so it is a little hard to see um everything that had happened from that individual who tried to uh pull the door open. >> And what And what was the object? It sounds like from the police report it was later determined not to be a knife, but I can see in the video that they thought there was something there. What
was that object to be determined to be afterwards? I am not sure what the police determined that to be, but um I'm I'm not not sure. I was there with the police when they were looking around the underneath the cars, but I'm not sure what they may have put into the report. >> Okay. And so your testimony today is
that your staff thought there was a knife. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> And that's why when I called I put that on the called was a knife. >> Okay, that makes sense. Um it the report does madam chair there's a there's a
appears to be a second report um suspect be this is the police report became aggressive and began physically assaulting the staff one of the employees observed a chrome colored object on the ground which they believed to be a knife fearing for their safety the employee kicked the object away and
with the assistance of other staff members physically restrained on the ground until the arrival of the police officers conducted a search but were unable to locate the item. >> Yeah. No, I saw that. I I appreciate that for pointing that out. Do any of the police officers that may have been
there that night, can they add any color to, you know, what was on the ground or what they thought was a knife? >> No. >> And we Okay, I might have more questions afterwards, but I will turn it over to Commissioner
Sax and Commissioner Kern. Um, my question is in the video as he's in the doorway there's one employee who initially pushes him out. Who was that? >> That was um Ahmad Sulman.
>> Okay. And is he with us? >> He is not. >> All right. Why is he not with us today? Well, I I I can tell you that I met with these gentlemen before the hearing and since M why why isn't he here? Because
he he's the one who has the direct testimony of of what was going on in that doorway between him and the the potential patron, the attempting patron. Right. >> Well, I did not know that until 10
seconds ago. So, uh, when I told these guys who should be at the hearing, it was Dez Sherry who made the call to the police and Mick who's the basically the in charge of operations. I didn't say don't bring anybody else. I just said, I've read the reports. You guys are the
most important players here, so make sure you're both on board. I mean, to me, the most important player is the person with personal knowledge of how this kicked off. >> Okay.
Yep. Sorry then. That's on me. >> Yeah. Um, I want to >> I mean there's there's nothing in the police report about a a knife being identified in the doorway. It was when the the the the
patron or the potential patron, I'll say, um, went to get something on the ground, which is several moments after a lot of pushing and shoving. He's pushed out of the doorway. He's pushed down the street and then he's pushed down onto
the ground into the front of a car. According to the police report, the the idea of a knife came up when this guy bent down, which is after he got back up from being pushed to the ground. And then he goes to bend down to the ground
apparently to retrieve something. And according to the police report, that's when the threat of a knife was identified. >> Actually, >> am I reading that right? No, actually in the first paragraph of the police report, officers officers were flagged
down by a concerned citizen reporting a person with a knife in front of MJ O Connors. That's the first mention of a knife. Concerned citizen, not >> that's a mention of that. Hold on. That's a mention of a knife. It doesn't identify when the knife was identified.
According to the statements of the employees, when they the moment they thought they saw a knife was when this guy went down to the ground to pick something up. >> The concerned citizen doesn't say this guy had a knife. He was brandishing it
before he ever approached MJ O' Connor. the the concerned citizen doesn't say when the knife was identified or why they believe he has a knife. The concerned citizen could have been responding to the statements of the employees like this guy has a knife.
>> Yeah. I I don't know that. It just says flagged down by a concerned citizen. >> Yep. But it doesn't say when the knife was identified or how it was identified. Right. Well, the following sentence says, "The staff member stated that the individual was in possession of a knife."
Somebody thought the guy was in possession of a knife. I don't know whether he was or wasn't, but clearly >> Okay. Do we have anyone who can testify to when the knife was observed or the the potential knife? >> Other than the two people that are with
us today, I don't have anybody else. >> Yeah. All right. I think that's all I have. Thank you. Jesus Christ. >> This might have been mentioned before, but do you have >> I'm sorry, Attorney Quilty. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. You know, there's a report here of a
>> Jesus Christ. >> People supposed to say, "Oh my god, there's no knife." I mean, what what is your line of questioning about? They thought the guy had a knife. I don't know what >> my line of questioning goes to when they thought he had a knife because
the way I'm reading the police report is they thought they saw a knife when the guy went down to the ground to pick something up and that is not the moment they started assaulting him. They started battering him and assaulting him well before that moment.
So, I need a witness who can tell me when they thought they saw a knife. You don't have that witness. The not the notices for hearings clearly state that we want witness who have personal knowledge of the facts of the
matter >> and the two people before you today do. >> I want to jump in here for a minute. Um, no disrespect, Commissioner Curran, but I think what might be missing here, Mr. Sher, you're the one who did you call the police or were you the one that went
and and flagged the police officer down? >> I made the phone call. >> So, someone on your team told you that there was a guy outside with the police with a knife. >> Correct. >> Okay. So, you called, but also somebody else there went and flagged down the police. Are the police officers here
still? I'd love to hear from them. >> I think it's the detective, ma'am. move the siterald. >> Sorry, detective. >> Sorry, s detective Fitzgerald. Yeah, I wasn't there that evening, but um from what I can ascertain is the officers were doing a code 19 at the Israeli
consulate, which is right next door, and they were flagged down, but there was also a 911 call at the same time. So, they went they were going around the corner to see to investigate what was going on after somebody had flagged them down, but there was also a 911 call that was answered by uh
>> by manager. So, it sounds like two people reported a person with a knife, the person that flagged down the police that were around the corner and uh Mr. Sherry who called. >> Yes. According to the report. Yeah. >> Okay. >> We can find out Madame Chair from the
individual if the individual is still in the employee of the Lency premises. We can try to get a statement from Mr. Sulleman or there are three people named as employees. Ahmad Sullean, David Sullivan, and John Lloyd
the officer spoke with. Um so, and again, this says they what they believe to be a knife, but we'll we'll get we'll try to get reports from those three individuals and provide them >> see who who shot what and when they saw
it. because there is they're definitely looking at something on the ground and kicking it. You know, we it just seems like missing information. The other thing that would be helpful because it is um employee on patron is a copy of your
um training or security and operations plans for us to have on file. >> What we're trying to do is to see if the response was appropriate to the to what was described. and a video without like firsthand knowledge is sometimes difficult. We we're led to jump to
conclusions, but Mr. Sher is saying what what he heard. I just I think what is also missing other than the firsthand knowledge is um a copy of your training plan so we know how you train your staff. Like are they trained? How are they trained to respond to something like this?
>> Okay. >> Like what are the steps they put into place? >> Okay. I we we will provide that. And I just would would make one final statement is that throughout the police report, the language about the knife is presumed to be thought to be what they
thought was. You know what I mean? It's it's in the heat of the moment. I don't know what it was. It was something that they saw that they thought was a knife. And perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't. We don't know. But we'll get uh the training manual, training information,
and we'll inquire of the three employees who are named as to whether they can provide any further information about what they physically saw um visa via the knife. >> That to you in writing. >> Thank you. I just want to ask if um if
Commissioner Saxon had any questions. >> That the Commissioner Joyce was the uh had the question. Um, so it was about the deescalation plan. So it's included. >> Thank you. Are there any further questions from the board at this time?
>> Seeing on the board will take this matter under advisement. Um, knowing that uh there is a request for a training plan and for any written statements from the three named employees who may have been present during the day. >> Very good. Thank you. Calling item number three, Congress Fine Dining LLC
doing business as Lucky located at 355 to 359 Congress Street. Date of the incident, July 26th, 2025. Assault and battery patron on patron in violation of Mass General laws chapter 138 section 64, Chapter 265, section 13A. Who is present on behalf of the Lency?
>> Good morning again. Uh Dennis Quilty, attorney representing the Lency with me this morning. Sean Sullivan, assistant manager on duty on the night in question and Emanuel McDuffy on security staff. Good morning again.
>> Thank you all very much. Who is present on behalf of the Boston Police Department? >> Morning. Officer Samuel Haj, Boston Police. >> Detective Jason Turkot. >> Thank you. Are there any other individuals with firsthand knowledge of the alleged incident who wish to
testify? Can you all please raise your right hand? Do >> you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> I do. >> I do. >> Thank you. Who will be reading the police report to the record?
>> Believe that'll be me. >> Great. You may please proceed. >> Incident number 252061006 about 10:25 p.m. on Saturday 7:26 25. Officer Hodge and the Fox 602 Frank
responded to a radio call for a person with a knife at Ly's Lounge, 355 Congress Street, South Boston, assisting on scene with a Fox 603 Frank Lewis and Fox 684 Frank Leesy. Officers were informed by operations division while on route that the 911
caller reported a black male suspect had pulled out a knife at the above location and had fled on a blue motorcycle before returning to the premises. Upon arrival, officers observed a black male suspect wearing a gray sweatshirt and black pants on a blue moped with no registration outside of Ly's Lounge.
Officer Leesy attempted to speak with the suspect, at which point the suspect fled on the moped, driving recklessly on the sidewalk before hopping the curb onto Congress Street and fleeing towards the Seport District. Officers broadcast the description of the suspect to other C6 units. Ly's lounge staff stated to
officers that the suspect threatened that quote he was going to come back with a gun end quote prior to officer's arrival on scene. Ly's lounge staff then directed officer Haj to a witness courtney who stated to the officer that he was inside the establishment when he was approached by
the suspect who was unknown to him and that they started conversing. The witness stated that the suspect eventually propositioned to quote go into business end quote with him and sell drugs inside of the establishment. At that point, the witness attempted to break away from the suspect and a shoving match ensued. Friends of the
witness, Matthew Marino and Alex Caprileti, victim number one, then intervened and assisted in separating the parties. According to the witness, it was at that point the suspect produced a folding knife and threatened Caprileti. It was also reported that as he was threatening victim number one, the suspect slashed the left hand of
Aria Kihoy, victim number two, causing what was reported to be a laceration to the back of her left hand. Once officers were informed that a person had been cut by the knife, they began to check the premise for that victim. Officers were told by Ly's lounge staff that she was receiving medical care inside the establishment, but later learned that
both victims, Capetti and Kio, had actually left the scene without making themselves known. Officers spoke again to the witness to find contact information for the victims, but he was unable to provide it on scene. He informed officers that the victims were quote friends of friends unquote. The knife, determined to be a folding knife
approximately 4 inches in length with a black blade and brown handle was taken from the suspect during the altercation. The knife was turned over to officers on scene and booked into the C6 evidence locker. As the altercation had occurred inside of the premise, officers requested a code 35 inspection.
The victim 949 Sergeant Detective Johnson arrived on scene. Detective premise inspection number 004235. During this inspection, the manager of Lucky Lounge, Sean Sullivan, reported to Officer Lewis that the suspect had left his driver's license behind and had paid his bar tag with a debit card. Officer
Lewis took possession of the license bearing the name William Brown IV mass driver's license at 649-65514 as well as a photo copy of the bar tab bearing that same name. Both the license and the copy of the bar tab booked in the C6 evidence blocker. Officer, search
for the suspect to no avail. Body cameras activated. Nothing follows. >> Thank you, Officer Hodge. Um, there is a supplemental from Detective Turkot. I don't know if you plan on reading that into the record as well. >> Yes, I can go ahead and read that into the record. >> Thank you.
>> On Saturday, July 27th, 2025, Detective Turkot called witness Matthew Marino to discuss the incident, which occurred at Ly's Lounge at about uh 10:16 p.m. on Saturday, July 26th, 2025. According to Mr. Marino. He observed his friend Jacqu
Cortchzi involved in a verbal altercation with another individual who had propositioned Mr. Cortezi to help him sell drugs in the establishment. Mr. Marino at that time attempted to break up the altercation but broke off contact to get the establishment's security
staff's attention to the situation. Mr. Marino went on to state that he observed a physical altercation between the suspect and his other friend, Alex Caparelleti, and a knife being taken away from the fight. It was at that time that the security staff broke up the
physical altercation and separated the people involved. Detective Turkot on Sunday, July 27th, 2025, then spoke with Alex Caparleti, victim number one, over the phone to discuss the incident which occurred at Ly's Lounge.
at 10:16 p.m. on Saturday, July 26, 2025. According to Mr. Caprileti, he was attempting to separate the suspect from his friend Jacqu Perznney when the verbalation turned physical when the suspect pulled a knife out
uh out of him while stating, "This is Boston. We cut [ __ ] here." Mr. Caprioleti went on to report that he immediately grabbed the suspect's hand, which was holding the knife, and forced it out of his grip. He raised it up high and passed it along to another friend,
Tobias Craner, who brought it over to the bar staff behind the bar. Also, it was at this time that lucky staff intervened and separated the viduals, the individuals involved. I then spoke with Tobias Craner over the
telephone and discussed the incident which occurred at Ly's Lounge. Mr. Craner recounted that coincides with Jacqu Cortez's accounting of the events in the original report in which the suspect propositioned him to help sell drugs and a verbal altercation took
place turning physical when the suspect pulled a knife on his friend Alice Caprileti. Mr. Krener went on to give statements which confirmed and verifies the statements recounting the events made by Mr. Marino and Mr. Capetti in which he
observes the knife being taken away and help up and helped up by Mr. Caprileti and him Mr. Craner taking it away from the scene of the fight and bringing it to the bar staff at the same time security staff became involved.
Detective Turka on Sunday, July 27th, 2025, then spoke with Elena Coohoy O'Grady, the cousin of victim number two, Arya Chang, who was named in the original report as area coohoy
over the telephone discuss the incident. According to Mrs. COY O'Grady, her cousin Aria Chang was approached by the suspect prior to the verbal altercation in which they had a cordial discussion where they exchanged Instagram account
information. Mrs. Cooy O'Grady went on to report that she observed the verbal altercation and physical altercation and that her cousin Aria Chang also attempted to break up the fight but being cut on top of the
right hand. Mrs. CHO Grady also reported that she departed Ly's Lounge with her cousin Arya Chang and proceeded to LOL General Hospital's emergency room for medical attention. Detective Tur
July 27th, 252 then spoke with the victim, Arya Chang, over the telephone to discuss the incident. Mrs. Uh, Miss Chang also stated to the detective that she met the suspect prior to the verbal physical altercation and had also
attempted to break up the fight, helping separate the suspect from the other individuals involved, Cortchznney and Caprileti, not realizing until after security staff had intervened that she was cut on the hand. Miss Chang was able to provide a cell
phone photo uh picture of her wounded hand which received eight stitches while she was at the LOL General Hospital. Video footage provided by Ly's Lounge Property Management Lions Group it Jeff Douglas on Monday July 28th 2025
corroborates all witness and victim's accounting of the recollections of the events which occurred. video and still images of the assault and battery with dangerous weapon knife saved and attached to I252 061006
case files. There's a there's another supplemental in which I call in Mr. Capri Letti and I presented him a photo array of the suspects and he identified the the suspects
of the photo array matching the um the name in which uh was it the um the ID that was left at the bar by the suspect. Um and then the uh the criminal
complaint was issued. The uh the suspect William Brown did not show up for the arraignment and there has been a bench warrant issued for his arrest. >> Thank you, Detective Terott and Officer Hajj. Attorney Quilty, would you like to
address the alleged incident? >> If I may. Um excuse me, detective. Um the uh inspection notice indicates that the police were called by management and that management cooperated with the police. Is that your understanding as well?
>> Yes. And um video was provided to you and uh evidence of the individual including the bar tab and the u ID that he left behind were provided to you and with those you
were able to conduct a uh photo array and the person was identified. Is that correct? >> That's correct. So >> from from all of that it would appear that management uh acted appropriately in the circumstances. >> Yes, they fully cooperated. Okay.
>> Um, thank you, uh, detective. Um, I may just ask, um, may I ask Mr. Sullivan to, uh, come on screen? Sean, are you with us? >> Yep. Just had to find the mute button.
I'm here. >> Do that. Good morning, everybody. >> Thanks. Just state your name for the record and your responsibilities at the lency premises. >> Uh my name is Sean Sullivan. I'm the assistant general manager at Ly's Lounge. >> Okay. Are you familiar with the
circumstances of the reports where you just read into the record? >> I am. >> Okay. Can you explain in your words what occurred and what your staff did? >> Um yeah. I I um reported to the scene about uh a minute after um the knife was
pulled out. um uh at the at the bar area. Uh there was already uh two members of staff there before me or more. Um and uh the knife had already been taken away at that point. Um I followed the suspect outside as he was
let out by security and um learned that then that the knife had been taken away from him and uh we then kind of kept an eye on him, surrounded him and uh called the cops and wait for the cops to come. The cops came quickly and I stopped him
on the side street so they um could could sneak up on him. Um and uh we went over together to where he was on his motorbike, but at that point he took off. >> And so is it your did did you have did
you have your staff call 911? >> Yes, that's right. Yep. me me and uh my uh supervisor Emanuel McDuffy we both called >> simultaneously. >> All right. And then um did you were you
aware that staff had then provided ID and bar tab and other documents to the BPD? >> At that point we didn't we didn't have that information yet. Um so after the suspect had left the scene I went back and I looked at the surveillance tapes.
I found the the time frame um from when he could have possibly purchased a drink and I went through all the signed credit card receipts from that time period. Found uh a receipt um that looks to be matching his drink and the time and um
and it just so happened that um there was an ID left at the bar that matched that that signature too. >> Okay. And then did so did you provide those documents to the police as it's indicated in the report? >> That's right. >> Okay. And to your knowledge, the video surveillance which you observe, is that
the video surveillance that was turned over to BPD and to the licensing board? >> Yeah, that's right. >> Okay. All right. And if I may just briefly ask just stand by the board may have some questions for you, but may I just inquire of Mr. McDuffy if he's still with us here? I hope.
>> Yes, I'm here. >> Okay. And Manny, um, did you were you involved in in the incident directly? um not in the incident directly but I was present as well um as management as well um and was also the manager that
called 911 as well. >> Okay. So you did you place the call yourself? >> Yes, I placed the call as well. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Do you have anything to add other than what Mr. Sullivan just suggested to us? >> Um everything that he said is the same
information I have as well. >> Okay. Thank you, sir. Would you both gentlemen please stand by? The uh commissioners may have some questions for you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. We'll see if the board has any questions at this time. Starting with Chairman Joyce.
>> Thank you. I don't have any questions. >> Commissioner Cron, Commissioner Saxon, any questions? >> Uh did the suspect come to the attention of staff at any point prior to the physical altercation beginning? Uh not to not to my knowledge. Um he seemed like he had it kind of he kind of
had it together as he entered the restaurant and had his uh ID um as he got his ID checked, but he didn't really show any signs of intoxication at that point or anything like that. So he he went in fairly unnoticed. He was in he
was in the restaurant for a total about about 30 minutes. >> Mr. McDuffy, do do you do do you have any knowledge of the guy before it uh turned into a physical altercation? >> Um, no. He came in as a normal customer.
Um, ID was checked. Um, usually security will always ask, you know, how you doing, where you coming from while they're checking IDs just to kind of gauge um the patron. Um, and he seemed fine. Um even uh throughout the altercations um throughout even he
didn't seem to be intoxicated. >> Thank you. >> No questions from me. Thank you. >> Thank you. If there are no further questions from the board and the board will take this matter under advisement. Thank you. >> No. >> Item number four, Broad Street
Entertainment LLC doing business as Tiki Rock and OSA located at 1 India Street. Date of the incident July 26th, 2025. Patron vandalism in violation of mass general laws chapter 138 section 64. Who's present on behalf of the lency? Do do we have anybody present on behalf
of Tiki Rock? >> Uh, sorry. Yeah, I'm here. >> Oh, great. Thank you. if you could please just uh identify yourself and we can't currently see you. >> Yeah, I'm there buttons. Sorry about that. Uh my name is Curtis McMillan. I'm the general manager and I believe
Michael Nelson, the head of security is also uh in Zoom with us. >> Hello. >> Uh thank you Mr. Nelson. Is that you? >> Yes, sir. Okay, >> great. Thank you very much. Are there any other individuals? Uh sorry, who's here on behalf of the Boston Police
Department? Sergeant Detective William Gallagher. I can read it. I would say I'm not the author of the report though. >> Thank you. Sergeant Gallagher. Um, are there any other individuals with firsthand knowledge of the alleged incident who wish to testify this morning? >> Can you all please raise your right
hand? Uh, Mr. McMillan, your right hand, sir. >> Thank you. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> I do. >> Thank you. Yes, I'm Gallagher. If you could please read the report into the record for the board. >> Yes. Good morning. I'll be reading a Boston police report authored by Officer
Monnique Janarian. At about 9:21 p.m. on Saturday, 7:26 25. Officers Janarian and Theodore assigned to the 102 responded to a verbal altercation at Tiki Rock at two broad street. Assisting units for the Victor 923, Sergeant Detective
Gallagher, Alpha 103 Canary Harris and Mcdana, Alpha 421 Aoya, and Alpha 422 uh Leighton and Beaton. Prior to arrival, officers were made aware by area A1 dispatch that the suspect was a black
male wearing a red shirt and had a knife on his waist. Air dispatched inform officers that the suspect had not taken out the knife nor had made any threats to use it. Upon arrival, officers observed several individuals in front of the main entrance of the aforementioned
location, including a black male wearing a red shirt. Officers attempted to speak to the suspect matching the description later identified as Jeremiah Horn 242000, who became aggressive and repeatedly cursed at offices. Officers asked Horn for the knife and
then began to immediately pack fist him due to the nature of the call. It has been known that Horn did not have a knife on his person at that time. B for us. Horn immediately began to pull up pants and get into a fighting stance. Officers immediately gained control of
Horn and guided him safely around place him into handcuffs. Horn became belligerent and rested towards officers while in handcuffs. It should be noted that Horn was very intoxicated. Horn was able officers were able to smell alcohol coming from Horn's
breath. Bystanders were leaving the immediate area due to Horn's behavior. Warren's behavior became alarmingly towards officers bystanders to which they began to take out their cell phones and record the incident. Officer Generian spoke to the assistant manager
Tiki Rock B Rodriguez Lopez who reported that Horn and several individuals were seated inside the restaurant with bottles that were not purchased from the restaurant. Rodriguez Lopez reported that he could not confirm if the bottles were of alcohol. Rodriguez Lopez
reported that he asked Horn and several individuals to step outside the restaurant to which they complied. Rodriguez Lopez reported that he informed Horn and the several individuals that they needed to remove the bottles and they would be welcomed back inside the restaurant once
discarded. Rodriguez Lopez reported that Horn became aggressive and punched the door causing the glass to shatter. Rodriguez Lopez also reported that Horn punched the door. Horn began to march towards him. Rodriguez Lopez reported
that he jabbed Horn twice, put him into a headlock, self-defense. Rodriguez Lopez reported that Horn exited the restaurant but was still in front of the entrance, refusing to leave. Rodriguez Lopez informed Officer Senarian that the surveillance footage would be available
upon request. Officer Janerian spoke to security. Michael Ingram reported that the altercation began over a water bottle. Ingram reported that Horn was being aggressive informed Horn that he needed to calm down. Ingram reported that Roz Rodriguez Lopez stated that
because of Horn's aggressive behavior, he was not allowed back into the restaurant. Officers Janerian asked Rodriguez Lopez if he needed to be evaluated by Boston EMS to which he declined. Jeremiah Horn was transported to Nashville Street by the Alpha 202.
while being transported by the 202. Due to Horn's physical size, officers were not able to put a seat belt on him, resulting in him being on the floor of the wagon. Uh Jeremiah Horn be charged with disorderly person, resisting arrest, destruction of property. Uh and
that is that report. There is a supplemental turn to that quickly. Uh on Sunday 72725, Detectives Hurl Swan Tiki Rock code 35
and issued violation 037922. Violation was signed for by manager Brandon Lamb. Patron vandalism. All licenses were current and accounted for. Staff was cooperative and stated that they would email video the incident or save it on a thumb drive if it was too
large to send. And uh those are the reports. >> Thank you, Mr. McMillan. Mr. Nelson, would you like to address the alleged incident? >> Uh, yes. The patrons were there were about 15 of them. They were a dinner
party. It was a birthday party. Um, when I approached the table to speak to them, they had water bottles, uh, Poland Springs water bottles, mini bottles, which we don't sell at Tiki Rock. Um, it was stated to me that there could
possibly be alcohol in those bottles. So, I approached the table and spoke to the said individual, uh, quietly because there was music in the background. I leaned over and said to him, "Excuse me." I said, "Uh, we don't sell those bottles, so we need to
have them removed from the table." At that point, he turned around to me and aggressively said to me, "Why are you singling me out?" I said, "I'm actually not singling you out. You're sitting at the head of the table." And there were
six or seven mini water bottles there. I said, "We'd be more than happy to replace those with the water bottles that we do sell at Tiki Rock." Um, and he continued to say to me that I was
being loud because I was talking over the music. At that point, I asked him to go to the vestibule with me. When we got to the vestibule, him and uh, one other individual that was in the party,
myself and and Mr. Gallagher began to explain to him um what the policy was at Tiki Rock and he continued to get loud. We we kept
diffusing the situation and when Fosto came over to the door, Fostto said to one of my other security guys, "That gentleman's not allowed back in here. We can smell the alcohol."
And we explained to him that if he had continued to be aggressive, then he wouldn't be allowed back into Tiki. He looked at the manager and then punched the glass. At which point we were like, "Okay." His his friend was
apologizing to us um the entire time saying, "I understand." I go, "You do understand." It wasn't singling him out. It was just a matter of where he was sitting at the table. He goes, "I get it." He goes, "Um,
you know, we're all just trying to hang out and celebrate our friend's birthday party." I go, "I understand that, too. Our goal is to just make sure that everybody is safe and has a good time. There's very few policies that we have in place, and this is one of them."
Once he punched the glass and it became aggressive, myself and the other security officer was at uh security that was at the door were able to get him outside. It wasn't aggressively. We just talked
him out the door. At um that point he had walked outside. He was talking to his friend. He came back to the vestibule where um Foster was at the door and he tried to come at Foster at that point in
between um himself and Mike at which time as as what Fos said happened was he defended himself and once he grabbed him then we ushered
him back outside. The police were called in the inrim of that second incident and I believe um the first one that pulled up was it you officer Gallagher when you pulled up
and he goes um who the [ __ ] are you? >> Oh [ __ ] you [ __ ] you [ __ ] pig. And this was this gentleman's attitude the entire time. Um at that point
as as officer Gallagher said um the rest was in the report as said. >> Thank you very much Mr. McMillan. Anything to add before we move to questions from the board? >> No, that all follows exactly what we
tracked especially off of the camera. >> Thank you. We will see if the board has any questions at this time. Uh starting with Chairman Joyce. Uh, thank you. I don't have any questions at this time. >> Commissioner Curran, any questions? >> Um, do you have the video for us?
>> I do have the video. >> Oh, yeah. Mike, >> I was going to say I I believe I turned the video over to the officer that came to Tiki. >> Um, I don't know if Curtis has it readily available, but I know that
evidence Did everybody freeze? >> No, we are we're here. >> Okay. >> So, Mr. McMillan, is that video you have in your possession? >> I do. Yeah. And I can turn that over to you guys. Um, the system is not new.
It's very old. So, if you guys would like to come get a The way we've done it with BPD always is that they just do a phone video of um emailing it from the system. is just not possible as old as the system is.
>> Open. >> Okay. If that video can't Sorry, Sergeant Daller, were you about to say something? >> Yeah, we can pick it up tonight if if they're around tonight. I'm in tonight. We can swing by and pick up whatever they >> I'll be there, Mr. Gallagher. >> Thank you.
>> Okay. Um maybe does the Boston police already have a a copy as well or no? All right. Either way, um the regarding the video, um if we are going to pick it up tonight, I
think um we should have a particular focus on the uh the moments before the approach happened. um just as far as foreseeability about whether this patron uh would be problematic. So um not just
kind of picking the video up right at that moment where he's um the first contact is made, but some amount of time just prior to that as well is uh is helpful. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Does anyone have any um testimony
regarding his demeanor as he was coming into the establishment? Um, not to my knowledge. They came in as a dinner party. It was a reservation. >> I guess I'm picking up on that. How long had the party been there?
>> Um, if I if I had to guess, and I'll I'll check. I believe we can check to see what time the reservation actually was. Uh, it would have been maybe they had a 7:00 reservation
and the incident happened between 7 and 8. >> Thank you. >> And if you know how many drinks he had >> Sorry, did did you hear the commissioner's question? Looks like Mr. Nelson may have frozen
Mr. McMillan. Did you hear Commissioner Saxon's question? >> I did. So, from the video that I was able to review, it looked like they had only gotten their first drink at the point when the incident had happened. >> Any further questions from the board at
this time? >> Thank you. Um, we board will take this matter adisement. We will await submission of the video that was requested. Calling item number five, Zaz Restaurant and Catering Corporation located at 1238 River Street in Hyde Park. Date of the
incident July 20th, 2025, open after hours in violation of Mass General laws chapter 138 section 64 and over capacity in violation of Mass General chapter 138 section 64 and board's rule 1.03J 1.06A and F. Who is present on behalf of the
Lency? >> I am uh owner. Thank you. If you could just please state your name for the record. >> Yes. Audrey Roberts, owner's restaurant. >> Thank you, Mr. Roberts. Uh, who is present on behalf of the Boston Police
Department? >> Uh, Detective Matthew Manning. >> Thank you. Are there any other individuals with firsthand knowledge of the alleged incident who wish to testify this morning? Can you both please raise your right hand?
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> I do. >> Thank you very much, Detective Manning, if you could please read the report into the record for the board. >> Okay. I have two reports. I have the uh initial uh Boston Police incident report and I have a supplement. I'm going to begin with the uh incident report. It's
going to be I number 25258797. At approximately 2:27 a.m. on Sunday, July 20th, 2025, officers Takosa and Clement in the Lima 101 Alpha while patrolling the area of River Street noticed a large group of people outside
the Zaz restaurant located at 1240 River Street High Park. The officer noticed a large group of people outside the above premise blocking the sidewalk and playing loud music from their vehicles. The officers attempted to disperse them by activating their blue lights to no
avail. Officers did observe a female unknown info citizen who was heavily intoxicated fall backward almost hitting her head on the curb. The officer advised Boston EMS to which he stated she was fine and declined their service.
Boston operations was notified and the Kilo 90 981 Sergeant Detective Joseph responded to assist the Kilo 981 Sergeant Detective Joseph spoke to the owner Mr. Orley Roberts and checked his
licensing. Uh E18 detectives will follow up regarding this incident per the Kilo 908 981 Sergeant Detective Joseph. It's part of the uh supplemental report. Uh at about 5:22 p.m. on Saturday, July 26,
2025, Detective Manning, the Lima 802, Detective Galvin, the Limo 808, and Sergeant Detective Robalis, the Lima 982, conducted a license premise inspection at the Zaz restaurant located at 1238 River Street High Park. Upon
arrival, detectives spoke with Orley Roberts in reference to the incident that happened on Sunday, July 20th, 2025 at about 2:27 a.m. Robert stated that a private event had taken place at his restaurant earlier in the evening, but
when the police arrived, they only found other patrons from other establishment congregating outside his business. Uh, detectives observed the following licenses posted on the wall. The c certificate of inspection number 8008823
Faz restaurant Orley Roberts uh 1238 High Park A issued on 51 2025 which expires on 828 2025 with a mass capacity of 19. Uh, the common Vic
license LB12636 issued to Zaz Restaurant and Catering Corporation Manager Orley Roberts. Capacity 19, closing hour 9:30 p.m. Uh, Robert stated that he received a new closing hour, but was unable to produce
any documentation indicating the updated hours. Uh, Detective Manning reviewed the uh, Boston Transportation camera footage, camera 321 from the River Street and High Park Avenue camera from
2:00 a.m. to 2:30 a.m. on 7:20, 2025. Uh, no large groups were seen approaching the Zaz restaurant. Uh, digital video request form was completed to preserve this evidence. Uh, Detective Manning reviewed the officer's bodywn camera footage, which shows a group of
people congregating directly outside the Zaz restaurant. Uh, officers uh, spoke with one male who stated that he was a DJ at a private event that evening. Uh, Detective Manning observes on body camera, the door of the restaurant opening and closing, as well as people
exiting the restaurant. Detective Manning also counted 20 people standing directly outside the restaurant in the body warn camera footage. Uh following a a review of the footage, a license premise inspection notice and citation 26386
were issued to Zaz restaurants or Roberts for violations of operating after hours and exceeding the permitted capacity. >> Thank you very much. Uh Mr. Roberts, would you like to address the alleged incident? >> Yes. Um good good morning board. Um so
our policy at Zaz there's two matters I want to discuss. Um we have a cleanup policy at Zaz after each event. Um upon those policy any any private events that Zaz um is is hosting the the guest has
to remove all you know they got to clean up it basically after each event. Um so we we shut the event down. I think the DJ from what I when I came in because I was called in the later on that afternoon or later on that night to
kind of make sure everyone is out of the out of the premises. When when I got called in, the folks that left the leaving the building, they had gathered outside of my uh establishment. Upon notice, a lot of their friends came
along with their cars congregating outside. One of my staff told them they have to leave. they can't congregate outside and they pretty much created a a an outside experience of my establishment because there there other establishments on the street on River
Street here that that has um event events and other operations happening at simultaneously. So, we told the officers that came in that all those guys, all the patrons, all the people that were outside or were not part of the event on
the inside of my my business and that it was they need to be shown to me that these folks were um were were, you know, from my event. And so, we had a hard time deciphering that. And so that you know in in in moments of that
it looked into the license and what we were posted as and we we were unable to post or to have the required documents. Um we didn't post it. It were in our files. Um and at the time we didn't have it to show that we have we do have a
updated time of closing and so forth. So, we told the officers that he could come back um at a later time and I will have it printed and I will have it posted at um upon further review. Um and so we we end up getting it posted and
and so on and so forth. But I think that the the the main thing for me is uh because we also have a the area of River Street. If you if anyone on here know understands there's a there's a particular area where there's Uber uh
pickup areas. There's other areas where folks kind of like cuz further down the you can't park on that side further down the street by the lights. So, a lot of folks, there's other businesses that that have events during the weekend.
They will park on on my section of the street. And so, it became something where we we couldn't control the amount of people that was out there cuz they were coming from different direction. And so we, you know, we told officers one of the things that we're going to do
moving forward is have make sure have a security or do whatever it takes to make sure that we are ushering folks out of here on time but also trying to let anyone that's part of this event that we hosting that they will leave um immediately after the event and not hang
out outside of the the premises to avoid any further issues. Um but those are the you know the two main points I have and um again we we know couple of things that we did differently is we like I said we're going to have security and we also we we posted a new updated um um
license and so forth that we didn't have posted at the time of the event. >> Thank you. We'll see if there are any questions from the board at this time. Chairman Joyce, any questions? So just a comment um even with your new closing hour you are responsible whether
it's your event or a private event to disperse the crowd at the end of the night. So and I think you just spoke to that as well. So on this night um it appears there is still crowd outside at 2:30. Um
you have to be sure as as the manager that any and all events um the crowd is dispersed before that. Do you understand that? >> Yes. Yes, I do. I do. Yes. >> Okay, that's all I have.
>> Uh I'm sorry. I just need to confirm a couple of things that I I just want to be sure about. What is your capacity? >> So, we have um there's two sides of the building. The the side for dining is um 19 seating capacity.
>> Uh-huh. And the other side >> the other side is a venue space. Um so that side is it's a the newer the newest space during CO we had a like an an additional site added to the space. Um so we pretty much during CO
what we did was we >> All right. It is that licensed? >> No. the 1240. Both sides are licensed. I >> I don't see anything that says it's licensed. Um, Secretary Green, do do we
have anything about an addition? >> I do not believe there's anything licensed with us at 1240 River Street. The capacity, >> have we ever had a hearing to increase your capacity, >> sir? No. >> Sorry. I didn't hear the question. >> Have you ever attended a hearing before
us to increase your capacity? >> No. This this happened during co we decide to add another space to the to the venue or to the restaurant. >> Yeah, that's not licensed. You you can't use that as your as your
business under this license. >> Okay. But we had thought it was amended. I mean we when the inspectors or the the anyone that comes in, they've checked both sides of this of the restaurant. Um,
>> well, yeah, we'll take a look at your license. Even if it was allowed during CO, it still has to be part of your >> Yeah, I'm looking right now. There's never been an application filed with the board to increase your space or change your layout since your license was initially granted back in 2015. Um, so
if you are using an additional space to serve alcohol, that would need to be part of your license. Right now, it's not. You would need to file an application with us. You do not have permission to use anything beyond the 19 capacity in 1238 River Street. >> That being said, we can help you and
work with you, but you're not allowed to use it right now. >> Okay. >> Okay. And so, uh, additionally, uh, your closing hour is 1:00 a.m., right? >> Yes, correct.
>> Okay. Were you there this evening? Yeah, I came in at like 11:30 to try to make sure the guys got out of there after the event at 11:30 p.m. >> So, you were there from 11:30 on? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And what time did you clear the
premises of patrons? >> At 12:45, uh, we we told everyone they have to start cleaning up. Um, they kind of were kind of dragging on that. So we we had to call them at the event coordinator to make sure that they cleaned up the premises. Um and so that
took some time to kind of get cooperation on that regard. >> All right. And so this is related I guess to the earlier question is so how many people were you clearing out at 12:45? >> Um 12:45 there was approximately when I got there I guess they didn't have the
expected amount that they invited but so approximately 25 people that was in the in the building. Okay, thank you. >> Uh, nothing additional. Thank you. >> Any further questions from the board at this time?
>> No. >> The board will take this under adisement as well. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Calling item number six, Big Night Venues Boston 4 LLC doing business as Scorpion Bar and Restaurant The Grand located at 25 Northern A. Date of the
incident, January 18th, 2025. Serving under 21, alcoholic beverages in violation of mass general laws chapter 138 section 3434A 416464A and board's rule 1.08F and intoxicated party on premise in violation of mass
general laws chapter 138 section 64 who is present on behalf of the lency. Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the board, Attorney Green, Kristen Scanland for the Lenc Ee with us uh on behalf of the Lency, members of their security team, Melton Howard, Charlie
Kaine, and Matt Allen. >> Thank you. I'm just looking for Mr. Kane and Mr. Allen. I do see Mr. Howard. Um if Mr. Allen or Mr. Kane is planning on testifying. There we go. I see Mr. Kane. Um we need you to come on camera so that we can swear you in. I'm still just waiting for Mr. Allen if he'll be
testifying. Thank you very much. I see all three. Who is present on behalf of the Boston Police Department? >> Detective Paul Donland. >> Thank you. Are there any other individuals with firsthand knowledge of the alleged incident who wish to testify this morning? >> Officer Aaron Glavin.
>> Thank you. Officer Glavin, can you all please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> I do. >> Thank you. Who will be reading the uh report into the record for the board? Sergeant Detective Donlin. I can read it
into the record. Anyway, >> thank you very much. >> This is uh Boston Police report number 252004701. This was a authored by Officer Glavin. At about 1:40 a.m. on Saturday, 11825. Officer Glavin and Howerin assigned to
the Fox 112 Alpha responded to a radio call for an unconscious person at the Grand 58 Seapport Boulevard, Boston. patrol supervisor Sergeant Detective Dawnland Fox982 responded to the scene. Upon arrival, officers were met with the
victim Vincent Seika 42205 who was visibly unconscious but appeared to be breathing. Officers were informed by staff that they needed to retrieve a wheelchair in order to assist with removing Seeker from the bar area. The officers spoke with two individuals
accompanying the victim who stated that they had been drinking alcohol since approximately 12:00 p.m. that day. The officers were able to identify the two individuals, one of which was Connor Monroe, date of birth 71,
and the other Brady Ericson, date of birth 1014. After speaking with the two individuals, officers were informed that they all met at the above address at approximately 10:30 p.m. Officers were made aware that at least two of the individuals in the
group were underage, one being the victim, Seeka, and the other being Ericson. The individuals informed officers that the victim had been drinking beer throughout the day until arriving at the Grand when he started drinking mixed drinks with various
liquors. During conversation with Erikson, officers were informed that the victim had only two to three drinks while at the Grand Officers were told that the victim's condition quickly declined, resulting in Seeker going in and out of consciousness. Boston Fire
and EMS responded to the above to evaluate the victim. However, Seeker's condition required him to be further evaluated and transported. Seeker was transported to Tus Medical Center for further evaluation. Sergeant Detective Donlin issued license pre premise
violation number 026996 for serving for serving under 21 alcoholic beverages an intoxicated party on premises. Manager Matt Allen acknowledge receipt of the citation. That's the report.
>> Thank you very much. Attorney Scanland would you like to address the alleged incident? >> Uh please just a few questions for Sergeant Detective Donlin if I may. Um, Sergeant Detective, you responded to a radio call that was made from the licensed premises by an employee. Correct. >> That's right.
>> And upon arrival, staff informed you that they assisted with safely removing the patron from the bar area. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And according to your report, EMS was called to evaluate the patron. >> Yes, they were.
And in your report, in addition to suspected alcohol consumption, it appears you also indicated suspected drug use. >> In the report, it says that >> it there. The box is checked on the report on page uh two of three.
Um I don't I don't have that. Maybe it's somewhere in that checked off. I didn't author the report, but you're talking about where uh suspected drug use, alcohol consumption. Okay. It looks like officer Glabin uh must have marked suspected drug use. Yes.
>> Okay. Um to your knowledge, no allegation was made that drug use occurred on the premises. Correct. >> No, there was not. And upon information and belief, the subject patron was consuming alcohol prior to arrival at the licensed premises. >> That's what we ended up uh learning.
Yes. >> And upon information and belief, the subject patron consumed two or three beverages during the approximate 3-hour period he was at the licensed premises. >> Yes, that's what was relayed to us. >> Thank you. And at all times throughout the course of that evening and any uh
follow-up investigation you had, were staff cooperative with you? Yes, they were. >> And did you uh following uh that evening, did you speak with any staff um from the licensed premises regarding this incident?
>> Uh I spoke to Mr. Kaine at some point afterwards. Yes. >> And um what if any information did he provide to you? >> Um he had just informed me he had gone uh just to check and see where these kids were for from, but I think he could probably just tell you about that more
than I could. and he was cooperative and helpful to you in your investigation and followup regarding this incident. >> Yes, he was. >> Okay. Thank you very much, Sergeant Detective. >> U Madam Chair, members of the board, if I may proceed with questioning for um Melton Howard, who is one of the
security directors for the lency? Uh Mr. Howard, please state your name for the record. >> Uh my name is Melton Howard. >> And what is your title as it relates to your work at the licensed premises? director of security for a big night.
>> How long have you been employed by them? >> Uh 22 years. >> How were you working at the licensed premises uh on the evening in question? >> I was not. >> Uh were did you become involved after learning of this alleged incident?
>> Uh yes, I did. I did the uh subsequent investigation in relation uh within days. As a preliminary matter, uh can you share with us how many staff were on that evening? >> Uh approximately 26
>> and how many patrons total? >> Um 575 total, 478 at peak. >> And how were staff first alerted to this particular patron mentioned in the police report, Mr. Seika?
Um staff had observed uh his friends assisting him to the elevator. Um security staff stepped in and um provided medical attention and helped usher him downstairs. >> And following this incident, you spoke and interviewed staff that responded to
this particular incident? >> Yes, I did. >> And that included Mr. Allen, who's with us today as well? >> Yes. >> And did staff speak with any of the patrons friends that evening? Um they did speak to his friends. Uh they said that um you know he had only
had a couple of drinks. Uh he wasn't showing um signs of u major intoxication during that time. Um but they said he just uh was on floor and started to lose consciousness. >> Did you interview any other staff within
the bar area that um indicated anything out of the ordinary with this patron or any other patron? >> No. Uh, did you have an opportunity to review surveillance video inside the licensed premises that evening? >> Yes, I did. >> And did you review footage of the patron
entering the venue? >> Yes, I did. >> Uh, approximately what time was that? >> Um, I believe it was around 10:30. >> And in reviewing this footage, um, what if anything did you observe? >> Um, the video just shows him presenting
his ID. Um the door staff checked his ID um and then he entered uh entered the premise. Um I didn't any major signs of intoxication upon his entrance into the into the premise. >> Um what if anything did you learn
regarding the form of identification he used? >> Um we did were able to find out that he did use his brother's ID to get in who is actually of age. Um he is a year older. Um it was a Massachusetts ID. Um
so nothing out of the ordinary for the ID itself. >> Following um Mr. Seika's entry, were you able to locate him um in other parts of the premises on any video?
>> Uh yes, on the dance floor and in the bar area as well. Any observations made regarding any um signs of intoxication that you could discern from viewing the video? >> Not that I could discern from the video. Um he was dancing on the dance floor. Um
walked over to the bar area a couple of times. >> Um how many times, if at all, did you observe um Mr. Seika being served? >> Uh I saw him consuming approximately three um three drinks. Uh, I also saw him consuming multiple waters throughout
the night. >> And following this incident, can you speak to any updated training that has occurred with staff since this incident? >> Um, we did speak with staff uh directly on um paying more attention to the face
and certain signs of how that individual looks uh to the ID. Uh we do extensive training with our door staff. Uh most of them are required at least two years of experience. anyone new brought on um has to shadow for a a long time before we
allow them to check on themselves. Um we do personal sitdown trainings. Uh we have lots of um information on on IDs and how we go about those. >> Thank you. Um no further questions for Mr. Howard at this time. Um, I would
like to turn it over to director of security or excuse me, vice president of security, uh, Charlie Kane in a few moments as well for testimony regarding his interaction with, um, Boston police as well as the subject patron following this particular instance. Um, but if I
may briefly, uh, the allegation before us this morning is not uh, for over service. It's for intoxicated patron. And I think it's worth noting that that distinction is important. It's not a violation in and of itself to open the doors to an intoxic intoxicated patron, which you heard from Mr. Howard after
interview with staff. Um that that wasn't there. Um uh observation of this of this particular patron entering their premises. Um and it's not a violation of in and of itself to have an intoxicated patron
within a licensed premises. That said, the lency does not dispute that the patron was found to be under 21 and that he was served while on the premises. Um, it is worth noting, however, that thousands of people walk through this particular lences doors um and have been
every year for the better part of a decade at this location. I think the board is well aware that this is a rare occurrence with this particular lency as is supported by the docket history for this license as well as their other establishments in the city. Um, Mr. Kaine will testify in a few moments that
in his seven years in his role as VP of security that he hasn't been before you for this particular type of violation. Uh they are incredibly attentive staff. They do always heir on the side of calling for police assistance on their own accord which is also supported uh by the docket history for this particular
lency. And while they do not deny that this patron unfortunately slipped by them with a verified real ID of his brothers that strongly resembles him, as you heard from Mr. Howard, uh there was no other issue with this patron. No over service. Um no issue with his demeanor
until suddenly there was. Um worth noting that all staff, security, bartenders, and servers are TIP certified. uh they constantly do pre-shift regarding signs of intoxication and trained for signs of intoxicification as well as uh have experienced door staff checking IDs
doing so as well. Um well I know the board does have on file the staff training and security procedure this year they have made slight um tweaks to that to improve those training policies and procedures which we will update and submit to the board as well. And um of
note as well because I don't think it necessarily came out in Mr. Howard's testimony. While he did have the opportunity to review the video, um this video um we haven't been able to locate uh since it was saved in January. I believe it was located. They've changed
some systems and moved some offices. This was at the time when Mr. Kane was out on medical leave and they had their director of compliance out on maternity leave. Um and I think it just got misplaced and lost in the shuffle. But that is uh part and parcel why we definitely had Mr. Howard here to
testify regarding his um investigation into the matter because he diligently pursued it and reviewed it so that they could ascertain um any issues um with obviously staff that night and with that patron in the premises. Um at this point in time, we would like to turn it over
to Mr. Kane, who can speak directly to um his involvement um shortly thereafter regarding his interaction with BPD and the um US subject patron here as well. >> Uh good morning, Attorney Green and
members of the board. Um first off, I want to apologize on the video um due to unseen for uh circumstances. um it happened and I believe 99.9% of the time it does not happen and we have
provided video so I apologize um for that. Um just to go into my conversations with Detective Sergeant uh Donlin um we spoke the following day. Uh what I did was I went to um the guest
list after Melton had spoken to the door man Evan and I spoke to Connor Monroe who was the guest of one of the DJs that was on the guest list and I called him um to uh show my concern for Mr. seeker
and to also to find out some more information if he would assist me because we wanted to make sure that um he was identified and showed ID, how he got into the club, etc. Uh Mr. Monroe called me back with Mr. Seeker on the
phone and he stated he was reluctant because he thought I was law enforcement. I told him I was former law enforcement. This was just an internal investigation on a business. and he stated that he had used his older brother's ID to get in um on that night
and he apologized. He said he was fine. I asked him if he would do a email statement or something and he said he would not do that and the conversation ended somewhat abruptly. Um, following that, I spoke to Detective Sergeant
Donlin and just advised him of what had happened, that um, he stated that he had showed his brother's ID, a real ID. Um, also told him that that afternoon myself and Melton Howard were in the seapport um,
at the venue and WS is our managing um, landlord that oversees the outside of the venue. and they shared with us the camera showing us the video of Evan the door um
officer IDing the individuals as they came up to the door. He stopped and IDed each one of them as they went in um as part of our investigation. I passed that on to detective um Sergeant Donlin. Um, following that,
um, I just wanted to talk about, as Scanland stated, I've been with the company for 7 years and 7 months, and Scorpion Grand does just on um, nightlife nights aside
from private events, does over 200,000 people to the door. And I know that we have not been in violation of underage um patrons in the establishment to take into consideration. Um and we get numerous visits from the Boston
Licensing Board as well as ABCC while in operation that come in and identify patrons um for that exact purpose. And we have never been written up by either the ABCC or the licensing board at this establishment.
And that would be it. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. With that, we will see if there are any questions from the board at this time. Chairman Joyce, >> thank you. Um, I don't know who I should direct my question to. Maybe Attorney Scamlin. The police report says there was two underage individuals in the
group and we talked about the one that had the verified Real ID. >> Yes. >> What about the other one? Um, I think Charlie can speak to this regarding the investigation. I know they confirmed in reviewing video that all IDs were checked. Um,
this obviously I mean I think conceding that this is one that got got by them as well. Um, >> go ahead Charlie. >> I could testify to that. I mean um when this happens um that night of I was well aware of Mr. Seeker due to the medical
issue and that's all I was aware of. Um, we do not get served uh the Boston police report until we get the either a follow-up uh from a detective or um we get it from the licensing board relative to a hearing. So, I was totally
unaware that there was a second patron, but I can't state that all the patrons that came in together that night were all identifi IDed unknown. Uh what Mr. Erikson showed for an ID though.
>> Okay, thank you. Um, commissioners, do you have any questions? Uh, are you scanning licenses here? >> Yes, we do. Uh, director Howard, if you could uh address that, how we do it. And
>> and also ju to add on um is there any logging of that scanning? Yes, we we do have a system that logs every ID that we scan. Um we do scan the majority of IDs that we scan are out of
state IDs. Um in this case, it was a Massachusetts ID, which um in 22 years of experience of checking IDs. Uh Massachusetts um is the easiest for us to discern that it is a fake fake ID because we do see them constantly. Um I
did speak to the door staff that was on that night. He is an experienced door staff. Um, very good with IDs. He scans out of out of state IDs. Um, he was very adamant that the IDs in this group um were real IDs. Um, you know, I I I never
had a prior issue to hit with him before um checking IDs. Um I do not believe that uh this ID had been scanned but it was due to it being a Massachusetts ID and that it was real and had you know
very much experience checking those IDs. >> Okay. Any chance you have a a log of the Ericson ID being scanned? >> I do not believe we would have that log because we did uh switch um ID scanning systems within the past three months. um
I can try to go back and retrieve from um the past company that we we were using. Um but we don't have that um software specifically. >> Is it your So is it your policy not to scan Massachusetts IDs or or are you supposed to be scanning every single ID
regardless? >> Uh we scan uh almost every out of state ID and we do scan Massachusetts um IDs, but we do not scan every Massachusetts ID. >> Okay. What is the criteria for scanning or not scanning?
>> Um, usually it depends on um, you know, what the flow of the business is uh, at that time. Um, it depends on the individual, uh, you know, what they look like. Um, it depends on the ID itself. Uh, if the picture seems off to us in
the ID, even if it's a Massachusetts ID, um, we'll scan that ID um, just to cooperate that it is real. Um, like I said, on most Massachusetts IDs, it's very easy to discern if they're they're not real or not. Um, so,
>> you know, if we have a question on the mass ID, we will scan it. >> You is does the policy touch on the the age of the person that they appear under 25, under 30, they should be scanned? >> Uh, we do not touch on that policy. No.
>> Okay. You might want to consider that. Um, I mean, my concern here is you're you're raising essentially, you know, Attorney Scandler, you're essentially raising the uh defense of reasonable reliance, but we just I'm concerned that we don't have a good, you know, we have
a statement that he used his brother's ID, but like for example, um, was it expired or not expire, you know, non-expired, things like that? Um, do do these brothers look exactly alike? Are they the same height? Do they have the same eye color? um you know, we just I
don't think we have that, so it does concern me. Um I don't know where I'm going to fall on on this defense, but um I just wanted to raise the issues with you if you had anything to say about those issues. >> I think in in regard to the specific ID
that was used regarding the victim or the patron in this case, Mr. Sika um Charlie correct me if I'm wrong, but it was confirmed that it was a verified real ID that would have scanned if a scanner was used. So I don't know that in this instance a scanner would have
resolved the situation. Um I think the lency tries to balance um strike a balance between both the use of the scanner and their due diligence with humans at the door checking IDs because of the increased sophistication of IDs
as well that that can scan that are fakes in some form or fashion whether it's a different person or it appears to be the person at the door but the information is fraudulent. Um, I I don't think, you know, they're admittedly going to be getting it right 100% of the
time, but that's that's what they strive to do in this instance and at this location um to ensure that they're not letting anyone under 21 in. And if I could just um elaborate a little bit, um we would not um accept an
ID that's expired because that's one of the obviously indicators of our training and staff training that you know using your brother or sister's IDs. It's expired. We do not accept expired IDs period um on anybody. And we do identify
every single person. We don't do a age. We want every person in our establishment to have a license, some type of identification in the event something would happen. Um, so we're very stringent on IDing and as far as the expiration, um, he wouldn't have got
in with that. And I feel like I did my due diligence, um, as a private company and limited in my scope of what I can do. Um, I could not access the RMV database to see license pictures or
heights uh to cooperate this information. Um unfortunately um in this situation >> um not were the police officers were you able to see the the the two IDs the ID
that belonged to the actual um patron and also the ID of his brothers you know do they have an opinion on whether they looked similar? Um, Sergeant Detective Donlin, I can recall looking at it briefly, but this was back in January. So, I I couldn't
really honestly tell you, you know, if they looked alike or not. I was just concerned because I think I saw and once you started getting the information that these kids were underage, that's what and, you know, just getting him the medical attention that he needed. Anyway, um, as far as otherwise, I
could, you know, try and look into it and see if we can get these registry stuff and compare them and get that to you if you'd like. >> There any further questions? >> Sorry, that was a yes, Commissioner Saxton.
>> So, Dr. John, if possible, uh, the board would appreciate that. >> Okay, I'll try and get that for you and forward it to you guys. >> Thank you very much. No. >> Any further questions from the board at this time? >> Uh, I would just state I I think if we've received that type of information
from the sergeant detective, um, let's forward it to the the lency as well. >> Yes, of course. >> Any further questions from the board? >> Board will take this matter under adisement as well. Thank you. >> Thank you. And calling item number seven, Paga Inc.
doing business as icon located at 100B Warrington Street. Date of the incident, August 7th, 2025. Persons under 21 in possession of alcohol on premise in violation of mass general laws chapter 138. Sections 34A, 34 C, and 6464A. Who's present on behalf of the Lency?
>> Good morning, Madame Chairman, uh, commissioners and attorney Green, Mark of Liyadi, Sopaga, Inc. I have with me today Kevin Montgomery who is the head of security for Paga Inc. and Sheroke Resza. >> Thank you. I do not see Mr. Resza with
us, but I do see Mr. Montgomery uh who is present on behalf of the Boston Police Department. >> There's Mr. Resza. >> Detective Gallagher and Detective Hernandez. >> Thank you very much. Can you all please there any other individuals with
firsthand knowledge of your alleg incident who wish to testify? Can you all please raise your right hand? >> Mr. Thank you. Do you sort of tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> I do. >> I do. >> Thank you very much. Who will be reading
the report into the record for the board? >> Uh I can. >> Great. Uh, Sergeant Detective William Gallagher reading from a Boston police incident book. On Thursday, August 7th, 2025, Sergeant Detective William Gallagher,
Detective Eddie Hernandez, assigned to the BPD licensed premise unit, conducted a licensed premise inspection of ICON. Detectives walked into establishment. Detectives observed two patrons drinking all beverages. Detectives noticed these patrons looked young. Detectives asked
them to produce identification to confirm their ages. Initially the patrons stated that they were over 21 years of age. Upon further questioning it was determined that patrons were under 21 years of age. The end of age patrons were positively identified as
Miss Amelia Singer date of birth 54 2005 who did have in her possession a valid Massachusetts driver's license belonging to her sister Colleen Stafford with a date of birth of 1026 2000.
Miss Yalda Alstat, date of birth 114 2005, did have in her possession a valid US passport card belonging to her sister Leila Hat, date of birth 919 2002. Both
underage patrons will be summoned to court for being persons under 21, possession of alcohol and false or misuse of an ID or license. The two older siblings are also sentenced at the court for assisting purchase of alcohol under 21. Detectives brought this to the
attention of the person in charge, Mr. Kevin Montgomery. As a result, the detectives had observed Sergeant Gallag issued license premise number 019681 for persons under 21 possession of alcohol on premise. Mr. Montgomery signed for and accepted the notice. Uh,
that's all I have. Now, >> thank you very much. Uh, attorneys, would you like to address the alleged incident? >> Yes. First, uh, Sergeant Detective Gallagher, did the staff and management of Paga Inc. cooperate on the night in question? >> Yes, surely did.
>> Thank you very much. I'd like to ask Kevin Montgomery to state his full name and position for the record. >> Kevin Montgomery, director of security, PA. >> How long have you been there, sir? >> Over 20 years. >> Were you working on the night in
question? Yes, I was. >> And could you please tell the board what our ID policy is? >> Just like before, every uh ID is checked. Everybody that comes from the building check. Um
>> if there's questions, we will scan and we turn we turn away a lot of our false IDs and we send them on their way. These these two ones happen to be legitimate. Um so they they got in. I mean, there were the siblings of the persons that
they had acquired their licenses from, and there was a strong resemblance. I mean, I really don't have any excuse to say other than the fact that I we try to do our due diligence and making sure everything's legitimate, >> but um after the incident, did you have
a meeting with your security staff and the bartenders at the establishment? >> Oh, absolutely, Doc. I told my daughter staff that, you know, we always have new trainings and everything else, but I just told him that we have to be not so not as we have to be as diligent in
verifying the faces even though they might be similar in presentation, but we have to make sure that they are as as well as making sure that their IDs are valid. >> And do you scan IDs? um if needed. Not every not every ID is
going to be scanned like like Massachusetts IDs are very rarely scanned and cut because they're legitimate. I mean we all live in Massachusetts. We all we all know what they look like and uh but if there's something from out of state, we will scan it and we also ask them for a backup from something from out of state.
>> Both of these IDs uh one was a Massachusetts driver's license, correct? >> Yes. And the other one was a US passport card. >> Yes. >> Thank you. I have no further questions for this witness. I think that at this
point in time, uh, as you stated, the siblings presented, verifiable, valid Massachusetts ID and US passport ID with a very similar resemblance to their
siblings. Uh the establishment has a strict policy of having no one come in without an ID and a strict policy to make sure that nobody is drinking underage there. I would say that the establishment did
the best they could on this particular evening and cooperated with the police. Thank you. >> Thank you. We'll see if the board has any questions at this time. Starting with Chairwoman Joyce. >> Uh thank you. Thank you. I don't have
any questions. >> Commissioner Curry, Commissioner Saxon, any questions? >> Uh, Sergeant Gallagher, the regarding the IDs and the resemblances and any other red flags that might have came up with with the IDs and the individuals that were using them. Do you have anything to state?
>> Well, they they were older siblings. I mean, one of them was five years older than the other one. So, that that was a red flag to us. Also, the US passport cards, they they don't scan. There's no scan mechanism. There's no barcode in the back. And uh really honestly, who
who has them? Uh we've been alerted by bar staff in particular, not them, but other bar staff that they're seeing an increase on counterfeit US passport cards just as the IDs, they come from the same website. Uh and like I said, they're not scannable. Once we saw that
and the age difference, we we talked to the kids. It was an 18 plus event with the old of 21s cordoned off to where they could have alcohol. So just the big age discrepancies and we started talking to them the girls they they came clean after we confronted them with what we
saw and they could not provide any backup to the nature of that you know other than what they had there was nothing else in their wallet to confirm that they were the individuals on the IDs. So that being said they were they were an easy find for us. Mr. Montgomery was there with us too that night and uh
you know they cooperated and you know we talked about it and you know that's why we're here. >> Okay. Sorry. >> Yeah. Sorry. Um yeah I mean so for the premises regarding the passport cards
um do do you have anything regarding you know what you're going to do about accepting them and do you believe that under the statute a passport card is you know um one of the forms of ID that uh you can
reasonably rely on uh or is it limited just to the actual passport? Um, we generally, um, we do take passports. Those are all right. But we've been told that passport cards are just as legitimate as passports. So, I don't know where our position is on refusing them, especially when it's
actually you and you're actually over the 21. So, it's kind of that that area that maybe the city can kind of tell us what we should be doing with those, but as of now, we're still accepting them if they're real. >> Yeah. I mean I I I don't know if there's any guidance
from ABCC off the top of my head but the on the face of the statute I don't think passport card would be inclusive. I think the statute says passport um secretary >> yeah a passport card for a passport
issued by the United States can be relied upon for any other um country it has to be the passport itself. So, a passport card is on the list of acceptable identifications that can be relied upon if it is a passport card for a passport issued by the United States. >> All right. Thank Thank you. I'm sorry I
didn't know that at the top of my head. Um but >> but we do have to we have to confirm that it is in fact legitimate. Right. Okay. And but detective Sergeant Gallagher, it was legitimate, right?
Even though you have >> this other issue about Okay. So, that's good. Thank you. I'm I'm glad. Uh and so once again, uh Sergeant, you know, not a five inch height discrepancy or nothing like that really
jumped out, right? >> No, I mean eyes, different colored hair, anything. >> They there was some familiar representation. I mean, older sisters, obviously. Uh yeah, like I said, there was discrepancies in ages. Usually, you don't have 21 and 26 year olders hanging
out together. And there there were certain red flags that that popped up like you can't scan these cards. So uh you know if if they asked for a backup besides a credit card I mean these people would not been able to produce
anything other than the fraudulent IDs or not fraudulent but the IDs belonging to other people. They wouldn't be able to produce anything and you know that that's how we caught them. >> Okay. Thank you though. Nothing additional for me.
>> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Are there any further questions from the board? >> The board. >> Thank you. >> The board will take this matter under adisement then. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Those are all the items before the board this morning. Uh the board is set to vote Thursday, A October 23rd at 10:00
a.m. Notice has been posted to the city's website. That will adjourn this hearing. Thank you all and enjoy the rest of your day. >> You too. Thank you.