Yeah. Meeting on May 21st. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice
for all. >> The 48 hour notice is required for the open public meetings act has been met as notice of this meeting was emailed on January 28th, 2026 published in the request. the poster and the poster. A copy has been placed on the bulletin board in the borrow office and a copy has been filed with the borrower. Uh Mr.
Bagley >> here. >> Chair >> here. >> Councilman Clark >> here. >> Miss Mahoney >> here. Mr. Mayor >> here. >> Mr. Mayor >> here. >> Councilman Nikki >> here. >> Missine >> here. >> Mr. Wishbell >> here. >> Mr. Warette >> here.
>> Miss Ley here. >> Uh Mr. Frederick is >> and Mr. West. >> Yes. here. >> And also present, Amarie Roso, our board attorney, Michael Shafi, our board engineer, and Christine Bell, our board
planner. >> Has Mr. Frederick said he was going to attend? >> I I have I did not hear from him. So, I just have him marked out at the moment in case he's late. >> Um, welcome and thank you for attending the May 21st, 2026 Bradley Beach Ladies
Board meeting. The board will observe a 10:00 time limit where no new applications or testimony will be started after 10 p.m. without pulling the full board. If an application is not completed during the meeting, a continuation date will be announced by the board of attorney. We would like to
maintain a civil environment for this public hearing and request no calling out from the audience. Everyone will be given the opportunity to be heard. After the the board and its professional staff have completed asking questions of a witness, the meeting will be opened up to the public for questions only of that
witness. This will be a time for questions and not for comments. If you have a question, please raise your hand. I will acknowledge you and have you come up to the podium before asking your question and state your name and address. Also, spell your last name and direct the questions only to that
witness. If a person from the public is rep represented by an attorney, he or she must speak through that attorney. All attorneys should register their representation to the board at the start of this hearing. After the board and its professionals have finished questioning an applicant and before the board takes
action on this application, I will open the meeting up for public comments. This is a time to speak on the application. The same procedure I previously described for questions is followed and all members of the public who wish to make a comment will be sworn in under
oath by the board attorney. Please be aware that the applicant or their attorney have the right to cross-examine any members of the public who may make comments. Written statements or letters from individuals who are not present. Petitions or speaking on anyone's behalf
are not allowable under NJSA 40.55D-10D. Uh written statements from the public cannot be accepted as they cannot be cross-examined. Public participation in this meeting will assist the board in making their decisions. We hope that this public hearing and your attendance will be a
rewarding experience for all and thank you for participating in the process. >> Uh do we have any correspondence? >> No new correspondence. >> Okay. Um, I did distribute the meeting minutes from our last meeting of April 16th. Did anyone have any comments or
corrections or otherwise? >> And I just need a motion or from one of the members at work. >> Make a motion that we approve the minutes of the regular meeting of April 16th, 2026. Do I have a second? Second.
>> All in favor? >> Thank you. Uh we have no resolutions tonight. Um we have a consistency determination but uh based on our on our attendance
tonight we are going to skip that till the end of the meeting so people can have dinner at a reasonable hour. >> Um >> so we will start with uh the application of land use board 23-01 use in both I'm sorry
>> well we should make the announcement. Let's make would you like to make those announcements? >> Sure. So, LUV23/1 that's a use variance in both varants is for a proposed demolition of the existing garage and construction of a new twotory accessory structure of a twocar garage Jefferson Berry block 85
lot 5 423 and a half avenue. Um this matter is not being heard this evening. The applicant's attorney um had requested that this matter be further carried um to allow additional time to revise the plans. New notice will be provided to the property owners within
200 feet and the uh next hearing that they are scheduled for they finally got back to me. Um they have requested to be scheduled for October 15th. Um so new notice will go out. So if there's anyone here for that matter it will not be heard this evening and you will get new
notice for the October 15th meeting. Uh the next one is uh LUB2406 parents is for construction of a new 2 and a half story dwelling. Michael and Kav Kavita Falvo, block 18, lot 18, 510 Parkplace Avenue.
Um, they also will not be heard. They are also in the process of revising their plans. Um, new notice will be provided to the property owners within 200 ft for the next scheduled hearing. They have also requested October 15, 2026. So, that matter will not be heard
this evening. Um, we have one application that will be heard this evening. Uh, LUV 6/1 variances to retain existing signs Hair Love LLC um Elizabeth Curry and Adam Foreman and sign sealed and delivered LLC Peter
Schul um block 70 lot 521 Main Street. Uh the applicants are requesting both parents relief to retain the three existing non-conforming signs currently located on the property. And just for the record, the the applicant entity is Curry Enterprises
LLC. The entities that Miss Dicker just um announced are the sub entities that actually do the businesses. They're the tenants that do the businesses and own the signs. Curry Enterprises is the
landlord owner of that property. So is the applicant is the applicant caring enterprises and then these tenants are >> they they've signed the authorization to allow them to make application for the property. So they they signed
the owner's affidavit allowing the entities that are in the building to make application to >> and they do have representation >> uh right? >> Yes. >> Okay. step up.
>> And I guess your main witness that you're going to present should come up with you as well. >> Sure. >> Cuz I swear. >> Hi. Good to meet you, too. >> Just put your representation on the record. Siki representing the applicants
uh of Suiki Law and this is Liz Curry and Adam Foreman and signed sealed and delivered back. >> Okay. >> And will he be sworn to sign seal to testify?
>> He's not suspect. That's fine. >> He's here. Moral support only. >> Okay. So, would you raise right hand? and you're going to testify. Okay. So, um, repeat after me. I I Okay, I lost my tr
I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, help you God. >> I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, help me God. >> And your name? >> My name is Elizabeth Curry. >> And you are the operator of Hair Love. >> Correct. >> And Hair Love is an entity, and you own
that entity. Correct. >> Correct. Your name, sir? >> Adam Foreman. And what is your relationship to the application? >> Uh Liz is my wife. >> Okay. >> I'm in the background who's helping out. >> Okay. So you are related to the tenant. >> Yes.
>> Who's making the application? Okay. >> Very good. Thank you. So I guess we don't have a loose chair to sit you down. >> I'm fine standing as long as nobody gets nervous by the elevation. That's >> okay. That's fine. I think you're
>> I want to thank you uh the board and everybody for attending for support. Uh this is an application that I believe speaks for itself on its face. The facts are very clear. What
happened here in a nutshell is uh Liz has had this business for 10 years now. During co she they didn't know they are very nice upstanding people. There's nothing nefarious about what happened
here. They had no idea that uh proper channels would have been to apply for a permit. It was during CO. Uh the town, I gather, was probably shut down anyway in Lane because of CO. So nothing happened.
The sign was up for several years and then after the fact uh more recently they learned of the fact an ordinance had since been put in place. Now uh making their signage and sign ceiling delivers signs uh
non-conforming. So they tried to fix the problem and apply for a permit after the fact which we understand was denied because of the ordinance now being in place and that's why we're here tonight. They made an
application. They followed all the proper steps for a use variance uh for themselves and for sign sealed and delivered for three signs. Uh if you're familiar, I'm sure you all are with the signage and where it's located and Adam
has uh pictures and and what have you. Everything was submitted with the application. They h she they they hired an artist to put this up this beautiful sign. The artist painted a beautiful picture. Uh
it enhances the community. It's very welcoming. Uh I don't know that anybody ever objected to the signage over the years notwithstanding the steps that uh should have been taken and that's why
they're seeking approval now for a bulk variance. They've agreed and it's in the application that this will if they are uh granted the variance. It will be only for the time period that they of course own the bu
the building and the business and at such time if they're no longer there then they will remove the sub and so I should be a little bit clear about that because this will be a condition. The owners are Curry Enterprises. So
when Curry Enterprises ownership ends, the signs will come down. If one of the tenant entities leaves, the signs will come down and that includes both hair love
and signed, sealed, and delivered. So that would be a condition of approval. If we uh go ahead and bring this one question, you mentioned just this out. They decide to sell it to somebody stays the same building, same same business. Does the sign?
>> The sign does not stay. >> No, the sign stays. The sign stays. >> Yeah. So, if we grant the variances uh to the teny, it's not the teny that the variances are being granted to. It's
to the property. The variances go with the property >> to the business air remains there. >> Yeah. And the and the sign is still applicable to a business in that building. You're right. >> That's not because way of stating it. It was it was ambiguous because it needs to be stated clearly that if it does get
sold, whatever, but either one the sign stays as long as it stays parallel or signal delivery, it changes names. Well, then you got another issue. >> Okay. >> Okay. Okay. >> You know what I'm saying? Let's be clear. Let's be very clear about What what what just to build on that what
happens if they decide they want to change the sign the same business maybe a different business owner they would have to come back for a new barrier. >> Yes. Yes. That would be for any sign in the bur that got approval or did get approval they would have to go for a
permit and if the zoning permit was issued for the sign they they could do it. But if there's a variance there they will be told they have to come to the board for variance. And if the business is sold to someone else but they're going to remain hair love or side sales rather than the side
>> the sign stays. Yeah. >> They uh in their condition in their statement they say that um they agree the variance would not follow the business. Should either business
close or move location the variance granted for their sign. >> Okay. So it's it's correct. So, that's what we file. Um, that should be in your package already. >> Yeah. And it's if a if a business changes and the sign
is going to change, it triggers a new zoning. >> You don't you don't get to just put the sign up. So, I just want to be clear about that. That would take take effect in any business. Um, I mean, my concern is is the gravity of the number of
variances. six variances. It's not only location, but it's also the size of the signs are not compatible with the ordinance. So, it's really kind of twofold. Like we have these signs that are far in excess
of and that's reflected in the the letter from Mr. Vak's office that Mr. Sofi put together. I mean, so it's not as simple as we're have a been there. I
mean, it's grossly oversized. I mean, all of it >> is oversized. Uh, but there are other there's other signage in Bradley Beach uh that would not comport with the signage
requirements. And again, the signage was put up regardless of it size. In terms of the time frame here, it's just unfortunate that they didn't know that they should have gotten a permit at the time and then all of this would have
been academic in terms of the signs then being non-conforming and having to apply for a variance. But Bradley Beach, my understanding is, enacted an ordinance in the midst of all of this and that's
why they have to apply for a variance instead of just getting a permit. >> Well, I mean, I've applied for six sign zone permits over the last 30 years and they've all been the same. So, nothing
nothing has changed. I don't Is there going to be any other testimony on this? So >> um I think you know perhaps we can hear from the applicant a bit more but um I
will say you know based on our while there are six variances um they're really because the the sign ordinance doesn't contemplate this type of signage right like this is
a mural on the side of a building. Um, and the way the sign ordinance is written, um, you know, uh, along Main Street, you're only allowed to have one sign per business. Um, this
is an additional sign. It This is not the type of sign you would see on the front of a building because of its size, right? like someone is not going to have a large picture on the front of their building. So, I think that this would is
not typical of a um a wall-mounted sign because it is more a picture, more a drawing than a typical >> it says hair love. So, it is a sign, >> right? >> It's not a mural. If it didn't say hair
love, I would agree with you that it is a mural. But by ordinance, murals are also prohibited. >> Correct. >> Yeah. When was the ordinance enacted? I'm sorry. You're saying that the ordinance was enacted after
the sign was painted? Was adopted after the sign was painted? >> Correct. >> So, what does anyone know what year that ordinance took effect? >> I want to say 2020 or 21. >> Like after the fact. >> Yes.
I think you put it up in 2020 during the pandemic. >> Was it 22 right now? >> The day was signed, right? >> There is the um the sign section doesn't say it
was amended on a specific date or anything. So, um >> the entire ordinance was updated. >> The land development or was updated but that sign ordinance was always in place. >> Yeah, I don't think this has changed.
>> So the parameters of what a sign can have was in effect before co >> before the sign was put in. >> Okay. >> Didn't change afterwards. >> Right. And then normally they would have then applied for a permit. Uh but then
because of as you said because of the uh changes after the fact as you said then now they did not qualify it was not conforming hence we're here for the variance >> but I'm sorry I don't understand that you're saying but the changes after the
fact they thought the ordinance was in effect as it's written >> yeah so the sign ordinance I don't believe changed at all the entire zoning ordinance was sections of it were updated But I don't believe any changes
were made to the sign section. >> That's >> so they if they had come here in 2019, they would have had to comply with what's there now. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> If they had gone for a permit, >> it would have been denied that kind of >> it would have been denied and they would have come to the board.
>> Right. So now it's been brought to their attention that they don't comply and they're asking the board to approve them as they are. They they recognize that they did not apply appropriately. >> It's not really a question of when the
ordinance went in and when the signs been in. >> I think you should let your applicants make some testimony. >> Absolutely. >> Because you what you state is not testimony. We need testimony on that. >> 100%. >> All right. as you
>> yeah I mean uh the only thing I was going to add which we're going to skip over that because clearly it's all here pretty much um was just the technical details um just so that was on the record but I mean the engineering report that came out yesterday is perfect we look at it it's exactly from our
perspective it's on point so I didn't want to blavorver this but I wanted to at least show a picture I didn't realize you had this thank you very much uh just so we could see that that was really my portion of this and then about good for university so Can we get on the record, please? Each sign, the size of each
sign. Let's take care of first >> the size of each sign. And in the record, we need a description of where it is. Like I know it says it on this piece of paper. So, let's get where it is on the piece of paper. Uh where it is on the side of the building. >> Okay.
>> Um and the size for it and then what is the size that is allowed so we know what the variance is. >> Sure. So, this is what we're looking at right here is the north side uh of the building. Uh >> what is the address of the building? >> 121 Main Street. It's the west side of Main Street. And this facing north what
we're looking at this picture >> and Carol is the uh business that has the front door on 121 Main Street. >> Yes. Which is Yes. True. And then that first sign is is Harlo sign there. That sign is 12t wide by 8 foot high, roughly
5t off the ground. Um, and then you see the little black one. Kind of hard to see the picture. That one is the sign seal delivered. >> Okay, we'll get to that. I'm gonna ask you the questions. Okay, if you don't mind, do you mind? Okay, >> so looking at this what we sort of
called a URL. So it does have the word love, but it has no address, no phone number. It's not meant to be an identifying type of sign. It is meant to be a a beautiful depiction of of
>> I don't know if it's angels or whatever, but hair, right? Hair love. >> So, and it's blue in the background. >> Yes. >> And also, for the record, it is not um it does not have borders around it. How is it affixed onto the side of the
building? >> That is signed plywood that's hand painted and then screwed into um decks. >> Okay. Approximately how long has it been on the building? >> Been 20 I think September 2020, August 2020. >> Okay. Any problems with the fact that
it's a fixed has it been moved? Has it had to be repaired? Anything of that nature? >> Okay. So, uh that what is the permitted size of the sign in this zone? >> It would be the maximum size of a
wall-mounted sign is um 40 square feet. Uh, and this is 96 square feet. >> So, it's more than half what we permit. It's larger by 50% than what we permit. Now, the side of this building is uh uh
there are no storefronts on that side of the building where the where the uh where the we'll just call this one a mural where the mural is located. >> There is no doors, no entry doors on that side. >> Okay. Is there any more signs that
you're asking for approval of for hair love? >> For Hair Love. No. >> Okay. So, does Hair Love have a sign on the front of the building? >> There's an awning. So, if you imagine an awning in the and the angle of the awning, there's it's on top. >> Yeah. >> Not quite visible from the street, but
that's something. >> And it has the name of the building, maybe the phone number or the address. >> It just has the hair with a the symbol of a heart and love. That's the logo. >> Okay. So, that's it for here. So now also on the north side of the building
at 121 is the the mural is on >> in Marie. I'm sorry I just want to go back to I think >> it would be beneficial. I'll go here. >> Um
there is not just one sign. So >> this is uh street view. >> Yes. So that's Google street view and you can see >> captured in October 2021.
Um, I think you described right the the awning sign, correct? Which we're too far. >> Um, but there's the Is this what it looks like today? It says hair love across the front. >> Then there's an initial. Is that on
either side or just Hold on. I don't know what happened. Um, this guy. So, there's two kind of initials, one on either side of the awning. >> Okay. >> And then I'm sorry, this is like
>> uh and then there is signage on it says hair love on the windows. >> On the windows. It's painted on the windows. >> Yes. So, those are window signs. >> Okay. So, they should be included in this approval. >> Well, have you received approval for
them? Is all the other signage here legally >> there? Well, there was no the the citation was for what basically is the paperwork behind this, right? So nothing was uh um that was prosec from from what we know they received a
permit for these signs at some point I'm assuming because you were only cited for >> we were cited for the signs in question the three signs question. We're not cited for the ones that invisible right now, >> which those may be conforming in. You're allowed to cover a certain percentage of the window
um you know that is allowed in the ordinance. >> I mean I I'm I'm also very concerned about the uh signs to the delivered sign on the south side. Actually both sides they're very large signs also. >> I think we should
>> I know that but I want to make sure we're going to make that. Yes, we're going to get we're going to get to sign seal to deliver. >> So, uh Christine, um they they received obviously a a a denial permit from our zoning officer and for care love the
only thing they said was about this blue mural on the north side of the building. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I It's not my application. >> Okay. So, so, so the um the front
warning that we see here, which is stated as um now I see an image capture of 2025. There was another image five minutes ago that said 2021. So, it's still there. It's hanging there in the same place. >> For sure. Oh, yeah. There's been no
modifications since >> Yeah. And so the in the front we have the awning which appears to be brown with the words hair love and the initials H heart love uh rather on each
side and then in the front uh uh window. So Mr. Chair, do we need to say that they're granted any relief for these things or >> I mean they appear to be um to meet the ordinance to me. Now whether they got a permit or not, I don't know. you would
still be required a permit. Um, but they appear to be fine. There's a certain percentage of the window that can be encumbered by a sign. Um, and visually I think that looks like they're going to need it.
So, I mean, I like to just stick with what was applied for based on the public notice. >> I think I think just for the record, it's important to note the total amount of >> um Yeah, absolutely. All right. So from that perspective,
let's move to sign, sealed, and delivered. And the first one that we've talked about is this is on the back of the north side uh side of 121. There appears to be a change from beige
colored uh siding to a white building. And there is a sign there. Can you testify, sir, what the size of that sign is and what it says? >> Okay. Uh, it says sign, seal, deliver, and you can't see in there. It says round back as a as a a directional so
that they actually know how the essentially sign, seal, deliver. It has no frontage. There is no front door. So, the only way for them to get customers is with those signs. And it literally says round back. >> Okay. And it has does it have an arrow? >> Yes, it has an arrow saying round back.
Is there anything else on that sign like address, phone number, anything of that nature? >> Good question. Peter, do you remember? >> Yes. >> A phone number and a website. >> Okay. He's not. Okay. Yes. I'm looking at the picture. So, we have uh a phone
number with the arrow that says around back and his slogan, which is your business, our signs. >> Okay. And what is the size of that? That is
six feet wide, 3 foot high, mounted about four feet. >> Now to where? >> 4 foot high >> from the ground. >> From the ground on the asphalt layer. >> And how is that the fixed on the building? >> Uh that has baramas. So that's basically
just a screw that's hanging on ground. >> Okay. To your knowledge. And you you you are a fellow operator of hair. You go to that place as your business. >> Absolutely. I am the janitor. Yes. >> Okay. So, so, so with respect to that sign, are you aware of any issues with it falling off
or having to be changed? >> Predated our uh purchase of the building at large as well as fair as an entity at large. So, >> okay. So, is this pristine the same thing 40 square feet? >> No. So the way the ordinance is written
um it's the it shall not exceed 10% of the facade area of the lowest floor of that portion of the building or 40 square ft whichever is less. Um they have that the white section yes >> of the building is 352
square ft. So 10% of that would be 35 ft about 35.2 And what they have is 6 by3 >> which is less than that. So this this sign square footage wise doesn't need a
variance but it needs a variance for the location number of signs. >> Okay. So the location is limited to what? Front door. >> The location's limited to the front. >> Okay. So and that is not the front of
that business. Correct. >> Correct, sir. >> Absolutely. There is no front. >> Okay. What is the the official business address of signal delivery? >> Peter, you can whisper to me. >> It's still 121. >> Still 121.
>> It's just in a different part of the building. >> Yeah. Essentially, if you if you would think of this as a house, it's the garage. >> Okay. You know what I mean? >> And like the white section is the garage >> essentially. That's >> okay. But there's no door. It's only facing the back alley.
>> Okay. >> So, there's no facing. >> How do you How do you actually access it? >> Uh because you know it's there because you have to walk around essentially. >> Do you if you're on Main Street, do you walk down this side of the building? >> Yes. Because we have a sidewalk that
basically cuts in between the white vinyl fence that you see and the building that cuts all the way through to the back and then through the back parking lot and that's how you get to to Petersburg. >> Does is that parking lot that's right there? service that building. Is that part of that? >> That's the gas station.
>> That's the gas station. This is >> We don't have that. There's five spaces from to answer your question correctly is there's five spaces in the alleyway, but the parking lots to both the left and the right, north, south are different businesses, >> right? And you have permission to use that parking lot for your business where
you have the sign. >> Uh we don't park to my office. >> So people can park there by the sign. Oh, I'm here. Park there and then walk your alley. So they're probably parking on Main Street or or further mostly mostly on Main Street. >> So that parking lot is not for that business.
>> No, that's where the common farms in the Mexican place is really good by the way. >> Okay. So right now we're looking at the first side. There's there's two signs for signal deliver. Correct. Indeed. >> Okay. So this one on the north side. Can
someone walk beyond the white and take a left turn around the white building and get to Peter's entrance or rather side seal delivered? >> When I first met Liz and I weigh 270 lbs. No. Now that I'm 220 lbs. Yes. So it's literally about this big between
the buildings. So >> okay. So there is a way to walk from that side and where the arrow >> like this literally like this. That's probably maybe 13 in maybe. >> Okay. So unless anyone has questions about that, let's move to the next side.
>> These are two separate companies. Yes. Effectively there's no connection, no ownership. There's two businesses. Yes. >> The connection is the uh same landlord same building. >> The ordinance is one sign per business.
>> Correct. They actually both are entitled to a sign. Both business >> signed, sealed and delivered is entitled to their ation and their signage and their variances and hair love is a separate business their
>> each business is entitled to a sign. >> Yes. And that's why Curry Enterprises is the applicant because it's their building and they want their tenants to have uh the permission that is needed through the variance process
>> and the hair love that. So if there the the sign that the awning on the front would be considered hair loss >> allowable sign. >> Yes. >> Yes. And that so not only is the mural for example too big, its location
>> is not permitted. That's a variance. And the size of it is not permitted. That's the variance. >> And and it's a second one which is another variance. >> Right. Okay. You're right. So I have to know all this so I can make sure I put it into the resolution letter. So we got
Yeah, I'm sure it is uh variance for location size and second when only one is permitted. >> So So I have one more question. The sign still delivered. >> Yep. On this side >> on the side on the north side of the building. >> Yeah.
>> There's a small narrow 16inch walkway. So that really is not an access from that parking lot to that build to that business. >> It's not used as an access point to that business. It's just directional in case somebody ends up in that parking lot and
says, "Oh, where's my where's this business?" It's around the corner. So it's not an essential sign for that business. >> Is this how you would enter sign sealed and delivered? Is the southside is this like >> Yeah. So basically that sign that you see on the white building you sit on
your right hand side at the back corner of the lake building. You make a right and then about 15 16 ft down is the door and the in business. >> So is it on the south side or is it on the west side? >> On the west side. >> It's on the west side. >> Let the record reflect that board
member. >> Right. I saw >> Hello sir. So the entrance to sign, seal, and deliver is on the west side. >> West side of the building at large. >> Okay. And the signs are on the south sides.
>> Yes. >> So to Mr. Noiki's question, >> you're only allowed one sign. You have two. You have one on the north side which if someone happens to park in that
parking lot which is not your parking lot but right next to the building they know where to go if they're parked there. The other one seems more appropo to getting to the front of the business because it's right around the
corner from the south east side east side of the building. Right. >> Oh, no. They're on Yes. South. >> Okay. >> But there's no direction. If you're heading south on >> Main Street, there's no identify.
>> Yeah. You're well past it before you realize that. >> So, you never see it. >> Yeah. That's what gets sticky. >> That's why we have a direction. That's the purpose of that direction. >> And there is an alleyway with which you can if you want to go behind the Cumberland Farms and drive down the alleyway. It is possible into the four
or five spaces that we have in the back lot. because there is no place on the front of that building at the address that denotes what the location is. >> So it serves some purpose of direct or of people who have never been there to
to know they're in the right geographical area, >> right? You're looking at an address. There is no identifier. If you're northbound, you could see it maybe on the south side of the building, but you're going southbound. wanted to see something on the north on the frontage
>> and so that's what I'm trying to >> then you call and say how do I parked on >> which only creates a traffic problem potential around the building somebody's trying to get there >> so their entrance I'm sorry I know I'm asking question but their entrance is on
the alleyway correct so in the alleyway so someone like >> driving down the alleyway or parking in the alleyway that's where they would walk into the Yes, I'm from the >> Is there a sign on that part of the building? Is there sign in front of
>> Is there a sign? Because I always park I don't park in the way. So >> Peter, do you have a sign behind uh >> Yes, you in the parking lot. >> Yes, there is a So the the west side of the building facing uh opposite Main
Street, there is a sign by the door, the single door. So they have a sign for their frontage. >> Their frontage to get to the the frontage for sign seal delivered. What do you turn before the gas station?
>> On Yeah. I never even knew that there was a parking lot. >> Yes. >> It's more like um a driveway. >> Oh, between a house and a gas station. >> Yeah. Single lane. You know what I mean? Like barely enough for a car that kind of >> Okay. And but then once you get that car
through there, there are a few spots in there. >> Yes. Yes. We have five. Yes. >> Yeah, there we go. >> Oh, okay. >> Thank you. >> So, so just could you point out where the signs are? You know, the ones that we're talking about on the north side there is the one, >> right? It's >> Yeah. So, basically the the hairlo sign
is by the little dot by the navigation beacon right there where the mouse is. And then about 15 ft. That's the next one for for sign seal deliver. And if you go south, that's the the other one that those are the three signs that are included in that in the variance. And there's another sign on you're
suggesting or saying that there's a sign on the parking area where the park parking stalls are on the west side of the building where his door is. There is also a business sign there. So he actually has three signs, two directional and one that's actually the the property. >> Yes.
>> And so that is a variance for number of signs, >> right? So >> but what about size too? >> So uh I think So hair glove hair glove needs a
variance for the um total area of the large sign on the side. It also needs um a uh
it needs a variance for multiple signs on the business. Um, and it needs a variance. No wall sign shall be permitted on the side or rear of a building. And there is the variance is on
the side of the building. Um, and then it says, hold on, let me Okay. Um then signed, sealed, and delivered needs a variance for the size
of the wall sign on the southern frontage. Um that is 44 square ft and it would be permitted to be 35 square ft. >> Um >> and the that's on the southern side,
>> correct? And we already heard testimony that the northern side >> meets the size >> that meets the size. Correct. >> Still needs a variance for number sign. >> It needs I'm getting there. Sign
>> sign love sign field. Sorry. Sign seal delivered needs a variance for the area of the um the sign on the southern side of the building. It needs a variance for multiple uh business signs because it
has three. We've heard testimony to tonight. Um we can see two. Um and then no wall sign shall be permitted on the side or rear of the building. Um and there's one on each of their sides.
So each one is basically the same size, multiple signs and locations. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think you said the one signal sign acceptable, right? >> The size is acceptable. >> The size is acceptable. The location is
not. >> And then multiple signs. >> A sign you delivered has no front. >> I know. That's the thing. >> But it can't go on only on a front. There is no front. >> So I think that their their testimony is
that um you know it is perhaps a better zoning alternative to allow people or it could be you know because of the conditions of the lot, right? like it's um unusual in its location that to allow
for people to um find the business, they need this additional signage. >> Yes, it is a testimony for them. >> No helping them if they would agree with >> planning. I'm summarizing what they've
said. Can I ask a question on the on the hair love sign? Um is there so if this was approved is there any requirement to maintain the sign in good condition like let's say 10 years down the road wear and tear it's
damaged by a hurricane or something like that. >> I believe that's also part of their um submission package. They said that they agreed to properly maintain these three signs, keep them aesthetically appealing to the public, which includes repairs,
fresh paint, and consistent placement. So, this, you know, would be part of the records. I would assume if the board chooses to act favorably, it would be a condition of any approval that they agreed to what they stated they would do.
And we'll ask you right now, do you agree to be responsible for caring for, maintaining, making sure it stays on the building? And at this point, we're just talking about the Hair Love mural and of course the Hair Love awning. Can't let that go into
disrepair. >> Absolutely. I mean, that's a reflection of our business, right? And that's what we're using. So, it look not looking good does not look good for us as a business owner. And let's say you you you it the awning fell down and you had to replace it. You need to go to the
business office and and see the zoning officer and further from it. You know, you can't you can't just let's find out all Yeah, absolutely. >> You know, just be aware that any municipality you are working in has these regulations and generally requires
the parents to go to do anything like that. So as a qualifier just for our education is if there were storm damage in your scenario even though it was there it still needs to be reperated even though it's a a fix just for my >> a complete removal of signage does not
ne does not necessarily mean you will get that same variance type if if the storm comes and knocks your sign down there's no guarantee that you're going to get that same >> so the act of God is not considered >> well I You know, part of the problem and
what the uh what the ordinance addresses from a planning perspective is >> signage proliferation becomes a a a danger to people traveling on the roadway looking at all these different it's clutter, okay, >> when there's too many. So, they're
trying to limit the signs and the location to what normal people driving want to see. signed, sealed, and delivered has more of a problem because they don't have a front door on on on Main Street. >> So, I don't think that they uh hero has
that problem. They're right on. >> Sure. >> Quite a question I have just for perspective because it was raised unprecedented time. If you have a business that's on a corner, are both street frontages considered the
front of the building for allowing signs? Um, it depends on, you know, the ordinance allows. >> That's a yes. I mean, I own 401 Main Street and I did the zoning permit for those for those signs for six different
restaurants and they're all you're allowed two on the >> ordinance permits certain types of signs and things like that based on your location. >> I just want to make sure the sign's not going to be amended at all. You know, that phone number in the future.
It is what it is. That's what we're gonna >> I think ultimately that would could if the board acts favorably um I would recommend you know that also be a condition of approval that you are um
approving what is what is there today, right? And if they choose to alter that in any way that would they would need to come back to the board. I would add to that that the the hair locks that you see as part of the sign also continue
with inside of the the the the business on all the sides. So from our perspective, it's a lot more just replacing the sign. So we're in agreement with you that we wanted to stay as is because it's also carries on to the theme of the inside of the building as Oh, so speaking of as is, um
I noticed that there's now a third mural poster on that garage part of the building. >> Uh I I'm not sure >> the banner >> the banner that was outside of the
>> Oh, that's not us. Wait, it's your building. >> That picture that picture is from the half hour house. Is that the Mexican place? >> I think the Mexican place. >> Well, I can figure that is not by permission.
>> I mean, for us too, like that side of the building we don't see cuz we're building this part of the record. We needed >> I'm just saying there's we we're talking about the building as is and currently as a 30. >> Obviously, we have something we need to deal with. >> There's there's another sign next to uh
>> Yeah, there's basically a large >> Hold on. Can I just say something? We're reporting this. Yeah, I get absolutely >> we can't have multiple people talking because when I go to listen and type this up, I'm not going to hear what all you guys are saying.
>> Sir, Mr. Mr. C uh uh carp board member, where is what did you use? Google Earth to look at that? >> No, I just picture driving here. That's >> Oh, okay. Where is the Mexican sign? Uh to the right of the
>> to the white >> of the seal delivery >> to the west of the sign seal delivery >> and and what side is this again? The west side. >> This is the north side. >> It's a mural. It's not really a sign. >> It looks like >> Yeah. I mean the bigger picture here is
100% not authorized. Thank you. Okay. So, >> we just we don't enter from that side of the building. So, we would have never sent it. >> You're not you're not seeking approval for that tonight. And that >> that would be something that you know your landlord, the owner of the property
would need to >> Yeah, >> that's not a problem. >> What I have a question. Would the variance carry in perpetuity regardless of >> Oh, you missed that. >> Sorry, my apologies. >> That's okay. We c we covered that in the beginning and there is a document filed
with the application that says >> what we can do. It's all going to be in the resolution though about if the if the landlord owner sells the property or if the business owner sells the business or if the second business owner sells
the business. We're going to have that all written down. >> But the short answer is no. >> Thank you. Sorry. >> If we could just put in any resolution that any other signs need to be removed
because it it's really not part of this application, but and it was not done intentionally by the applicant. >> You're talking about the the Mexican taco site. >> Yeah. But but that that they would have to have >> gladly
>> please. So that's a direction to the applicant Curry Enterprise which the tenant here is saying okay to remove that and so if there is any difficulty uh you know the zoning officer should be told that that's a direction from us.
>> I mean it just goes to the the fact that when you have these things happening with no permits everything happens. I mean this is the perfect teachable moment for this is what happens. >> Signage proliferation. >> Yes. Exactly. And uh just for everyone's
education that when this was put up the zoning permit was only $45. Now it's 75. But you do need to get one. I mean that's that's really the important part. Anything you do on the outside, you have to check the ordinance and just be safe
for $75. I mean all this money spent on all this you know we could have found out right >> be a lot cheaper for us but expensive blessing for us. >> Yes and to Mr. SC delivered and Miss
Hairlo and Mr. and Mrs. Curry would have been a lot easier to have done it. I mean, we understand because COVID happened that a lot of things happened during COVID, but obviously we uh have to deal with it now and I'm having a confusing time. I'll be looking at that
YouTube video very carefully, but when I write this, but I did write everything down. Um, is there anything else that you want to say about >> Yes, sir. >> Do you have any other testimony? >> Yes, we would like covered pretty much
everything. >> Well, I mean, obviously there'll be some redundant things, but you should you should speak as >> All right. >> Yes, you should speak. >> Okay. I was just going to introduce myself and I'm This is my own hair salon at 12. Um, we wanted to thank everybody for being
here. Thank you for your time. Um, and I appreciate the opportunity to make this case in person because I know it's a unique circumstance. Um, although ignorance is not an excuse, we had no idea that we rules and Peter sign has been there for
almost a decade and our sign's been there since 2020. Um we're just two small businesses. We're trying to serve Bradley Beach community and um we believe that Peter's business uh doesn't have any frontage, so it needs
the advertising on the side to let everyone know how to get there. It's a challenge for new customers to find his business. And our sign is just adding um beautifification to the parking lot. Uh the signs are humble. We hire the local
artist to paint ours. Uh clients regularly um stop by to tell us that they recognize the sign and let us know how beautiful it is. We hear that it brightens up the job parking lot and
it's been part of the community fabric for the last couple years. There's no hard sales. There's no happy hour slogans. There's no buy get one deals and um it's just a beautiful woman with hair and flowers and it really represents our business nicely. Um in
closing, we just we're asking the board to grant our varian our signs remain installed and we would love to continue to be a recognizable business on Main Street and show our small town charm. >> Anything else with you? Otherwise, I'll open up to the public for questions.
Sure. That was wonderful. >> Unless you have anything further not >> to question real quick. So I know in the documentation we got the science seal delivered sign. It's been up there for 13 years I think it said and they're
signed for six. What were the events that brought you here tonight given the timeline of these signs being in the building? >> Um, a citation from the code inspector. >> Okay. So, it's been up for six years and
no one has acknowledged that in that time. >> Yeah. Would have been uh I mean that's November something like that citation. Uh, any questions of these two witnesses? Um, >> Miss Curry, Mr. Curry from Yeah, please
step forward and uh, questions only. >> Question your name and address. >> You have to give your name and address. >> My name is Zelda Zelda. The last name is Bourtney. B E C O U R T N E Y. I live at 100 Madison Avenue, Bradley Beach.
Just curious. Um, Lauren said that she asked a question timelinewise that it had been there for a while. I know it's been there for a while. I've loved it for a while as has
my husband who notices nothing. Um, how come all of a sudden it became an issue? who saw that it became an issue six years later, 10 years later, that's confusing to me as a resident. I don't
how did it suddenly become an issue if it had been there for that time frame? Can you answer that question? >> Uh, only from the other than the fact we got a letter that cited that that's all we know and we have no backtory. There's no backtory. So,
>> kind of odd. Can I chime in with something to kind of help answer that question? >> Sure. One of the things I'm the the board leazison is on to um the um code enforcement and uh up until last year we did not have a full-time code
enforcement official. So only recently have we had a full-time code enforcement official. He was now responsible for his his full-time job of driving around town and noticing the formities. >> Sure. >> And picking up on that. So, >> so it's code enforcement, not the
zoning. >> It's code code enforcement. Sure. >> I just would like to add to that. I'm a councilman here in town that often get phone calls from residents or adjacent property owners that make complaints about things that are non enforcement.
So, it's not just that he drives around as a you know, you know, policing. Sure. but he investigates complaints from other um you know property owners. So I don't know if that had transpired here or not. And it's but but I just
want to make it clear that it's not that we're just you know driving around you know and and looking to target but often it also comes from complaints. Yes. >> So, we have to look at both and we do drive around town and look for
violations for public health, safety, etc. that are non non-compliant, but we also have to look at complaints and go and validate those. So, those are two key points here and it's really immaterial which way that that arrived,
but those are jobs of the individuals and the code enforcement in Bradley Beach. It's important for health and safety that we do this. And often people target the employees who have to do these things for health and safety because of of an opinion. So I want to
make sure it's clear that they're doing it for purposes of health and safety sign proliferation that could cause um a danger to the traveling public. So all these things have to be considered and it's not just oh Brad's overreacting that often we have to look at these
things because of a complaint as well. But it's for health and safety of the community overall. Yes. And I would just like to point out um because uh Miss Siki said something in the beginning that the board should be aware of. If you're not aware of, I'll just state it.
There is no argument of sort of I'm a target or Bradley Beach is selectively enforcing against me. It's not an appropriate argument to say, well, I want my signs because the guy down the street has the signs. The law does not
require the burrow to go and and ticket every single person for every single violation that exists. What what it the law says is you have to be reasonable and typically code enforcements divide up the city in four quadrants and the
first week of the month they might do quadrant A then they go to quadrant B whatever they do. The same like policing. We we divide account and police. And and the point about it is it's inappropriate to say, "Well, you got my sights. What about that guy? What
about that guy?" Or, you know, parking illegally. Oh, you gave me a ticket, but you didn't get that's not an acceptable argument in a court of law. Or for us, we are a quai judicial body. We cannot we we can not follow. Oh, the selective
enforcement argument there. There could be a violation if you really found that only one person was ever given a sign violation and uh there's 50 5,500 sign violations. I mean
any lawyer could make any argument but for our purposes it's not an argument that is reliable in this instance or often part often in any sign case or co code enforcement they us as the councilman has said health safety and
welfare is the major basis for enforcement it like for example he these two have learned and the Mr. uh science field and delivered has learned. We got to go get permits. The Mexican guy is
going to learn that too, right? So, I mean that's the point is people can't just go about hanging things out. >> Well, that's been, you know, to that point, I mean, having a full-time quot officer makes a big difference. Everyone says Main Street needs to look better. >> Yeah.
>> So, we've had a proliferation of banners and they're gone. And, you know, I don't have to name them, but they're gone. And main street looks better. So coin is doing their job and as they do it they a lot of times people said I got to take
mine down. What about him? And you know that's how these things evolve. But you know we're all working towards following the ordinance and and if that happens we can all just enjoy. I mean I prefer you not to be here.
That's that's the way I feel about it. But are there any other questions of these two witnesses only from the audience? Uh, seeing none, I'll close the public questioning. Mr. Wiki, do you have any other testimony? >> Are you going to ask for comment from the public?
>> We will, but I want to make sure that Mrs. Wiki has nothing else. >> Appreciate that. I think uh I think that they covered everything. I appreciate you solidifying everything. Uh and again my clients are very very good people,
very hardworking people. They contribute to the community. Um everybody loves going to the hair salon. And as Liz said, I mean it is a really beautiful it's a piece of art. It's a beautiful sign. Um there was no malice here or ill
intent and uh they didn't know. There are rules and they're happy to follow. Miss Miss Wiki, I see some photographs. Do you want to mark those into evidence? >> Sure. >> Yeah. Basically, that was just a a depiction of how and this was in
reference to maintaining the sign is basically that's what it looks like in the inside. So, the hair locks kind of spin around and they go around the inside of the room. >> Doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, but it's sort of like that. Yes, we're absolutely going to take care of this and yes, this is not changing because this is all
>> part of the inside, part of the outside. That's part of the look of the feel of the business that changes our brand. So, we're not doing >> I have to Gotcha. I have to describe it for the record. A1 dated 52126 is a closeup of the blue hair love sign on
the north side of the building. And A2 is a sign of of a photograph of the inside which shows some hair products on one side and then it shows a long uh
painting maybe by the same artist >> in the interior of the building that >> I'm going to pass it around but it needs to get back to Christie. It shows the uh the hair locks with with flowers in them. So you let those just pass around
and then we will keep these because we have to >> um and I'll need a copy to stand open up to the public for comments. >> Okay. At this time we'll accept comments
from the audience. Again, please step up, state your name, uh spell your last name and your address and Sure. >> Hi, Gary Ingstad. Uh, NG E L S T A D 311 Second Avenue. I come here tonight first.
>> Oh. >> Oh, comments. You have to get sworn in. Sorry. So, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So, help you die. >> Thank you. Um, I come here tonight just as not just a resident but also as president of the Bradley Beach Business and Community Alliance in support of one
of our business members. In that capacity, I took the time to check with the adjacent business neighbors to see if they had concern with the mural in question and they did not need Mr. Martinez, Mr. Patel. If they had originated this process with a complaint, the alliance would not be involved. The block between Evergreen
and Second Third Avenue is a fascinating one. In Bradley Beach, you have an eclectic mix of establishments coupled with some properties that cause concern. You have Country Farms and that's a lot of by the sea. Two thriving and busy businesses. You have the hottest business in all of Bradley Beach with Hey Peach. You have a
somewhat quirky pharmacy that has its devotees. You have Fins. You have Stock Room. You have a a cigar store. And uh you have a gas station which also unfortunately thought that a convenience store next to a convenience store was a good idea. So that didn't work out. But
possibly most importantly you have a theater where we are literally praying right now that a major proposal becomes a reality. If that theater truly comes back to life, I can guarantee you that they will be coming back to the burrow asking for permission to do murals on
the south side of their building. I bring this up because this group has a perfect opportunity to demonstrate that every block in Bradley Beach is different. But for this block in question, the hairlo is a perfect addition. It sends a message about the vibrancy of the block and contributes to
the attractiveness of other properties for investment and improvement. This countless studies have shown that public art has a significant benefit to main thoroughares in cities and towns of all sizes. We're not talking about graffiti here. We are talking about a classy rendering of an individual that's
mentioned before adds the spirit of the block and we hopefully and will hopefully be a precursor to additional murals and properties on that block and in other appropriate locations in our town. Let's celebrate art where we can. I respectfully ask the board to approve
their request with regards to sign sealed delivered and I kind of liken this to the uh situation with the back in time cafe. They had a unique location where people didn't know where they were coming on Main Street and the mayor and council decided that they would allow uh
um sandwich board or something some signage in Riley Park so that people could support the business in town. Um the amount of work that Sign Seals and Delivered has done for the burrow of Bradley Beach is amazing, incredible. Probably some going on right now as we
speak. Um, but that being said, they deserve an opportunity for people to find their bizarre location. You know, if they came to us today and said, "I want to put a business on a on a back of a building on a on an alleyway." No one would do that. But he did many years
ago. And but you they he deserves the opportunity to have people find where his business is. And no one goes to that little congratulations and being much skinnier than I would not make that story. I I have used their business many times for my businesses and go right down the alley and they're right there.
So, please uh uh ask you to uh grant these variances request. >> Thank you. >> I have a question. >> I have a question for you. >> Yeah. >> Um you're you're referring to approved
public art, right? Not just public art. The public art would have to be >> Yes. Approved. Yes. Right. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. This one is not approved. >> Well, that's why you're here, too. >> Yeah, I realize that. But I was wondering about the uh mural that was done at 1200 Main Street while you were
the mayor. It was the tire place and apparently that was not approved public art and you painted over it. >> Couple volunteers that was based on numerous complaints that was graffiti as far as I was concerned. That was not public >> and they they never came to the burrow
asking for anything. >> Exactly. They didn't come to the bar when it got painted open. >> They never had the opportunity to come. >> They should have. >> Exactly. >> Everyone should come to >> Right. >> And when the mural was painted on Jersey
Shore business, um those folks came to to to your administration and were given approval in an open public forum. >> Great. >> I think it's beautiful piece of work. >> That's how it's supposed to work. I have no not question. That's why we're here
tonight. >> Great. >> Please step forward. >> Hi, >> my name is Brie Cade. The last name is spelled C A D E and I live at A10 Borton Avenue in Point Pleasant, New Jersey.
Um, I'm one of Liz's employees. Uh, she's probably the best boss I've ever had. I've been doing hair for 16 years and I've been working at Hair Love for 10 years. Uh salons a lot of times have a lot of turnover with their employees. There tends to >> we have to squeeze you in. >> Oh, sure. Oh, I'm sorry.
>> You tell the truth, the whole truth is nothing but the truth. So, help you God. >> Yes. Thank you. Um long story short, Liz is a great person, a great boss. So is Adam. Everyone who works at Hair Love all the clients, Amy, and everyone does, like Amy said, comment on how beautiful
the sign is, the artwork. One of our clients drew it. I wish he could be here today to defend her beautiful work. Um, I also uh work as an actor and I was in a musical touring for nine months. I saw 82 different cities in nine months, places I never thought I'd go to. And
the ones that I remember had beautiful artwork on so many of the buildings and like Derek was saying, not graffiti. And those are the places that I thought I'd never never in my life go back to. I never thought I'd say, "Oh, I'd love to go back to Lincoln, Nebraska or Tulsa, Oklahoma." so many buildings and so many
blocks that were so interesting and had all these different character about them for different businesses with their artwork. That's what made it attractive. That's what made me say to people, "You should go check out this place. This is a really beautiful place. It's really eclectic and something different and not just the same old boring gray town
houses you see everywhere." So, >> just my two cents. >> Thank you. >> Can I speak again? >> Sure. Lisa, this is comments. >> Do I need >> No, you don't have to be sworn in. You
have to identify your name for >> the Courtney 100 Madison Avenue Bradley Beach. >> Previously sworn. >> Thank you. Uh I am an artist myself. I'm a retired art teacher from Fairwood
Public Schools and I am a recent member to the arts council of Bradley Beach. I am a muralist and a painter by love and trade. And I have spent the last five years painting murals
inside public buildings, um, Middletown Village, elementary school, um, a temple in Oak, the one right next to Deal, um, not Ocean Township. Yeah. Um,
I am a firm believer in how art speaks to a community. and we are moving in the direction of openness and willingness to make Bradley equally more beautiful than it already is. I moved
down here full-time 10 years ago and it spoke to me as a child. I came with my parents when I was a little kid and I brought my kids when they were little kids and I bought a house here 14 years ago and said this is
the place I want to be. This is the town I want my grandchildren to come to and they do come and hair loves murals speaks to that heart when you walk to the water and I'm three blocks from the beach and I smell the
ocean and I say this is what makes Bradley beautiful. So things like what happened with her love and what could happen with the mural by the school and what may happen in murals elsewhere and the old photographs that are on the boardwalk from the historical society
society. All those things speak to what Bradley is. It's a huge community with all kinds of people who want to see and feel all different kinds of things. And they drive into Bradley, they smell the salt air and they say, "Wow, I want to be here." So art in its form, musical,
visual, photographs, any of those things can only make it better. So I hope that you will lean in their direction as an artist and a resident. It speaks to who I am and probably who a lot of people in the
community. Thank you. >> Anyone else in the audience comments? Seeing none, I'll close the public comments and do some
would you like to hear some comments from the board at all before you start because >> I I agree with the res on Madison Avenue. the same question. The first question I had was why so long?
One sign have been up for 10 years, one up for six years. Yes, we've had part-time zoning officers. They both by that sign 100 times or should why at this time in juncture in Bradley
Beach just brought up I I don't have I don't understand and Miki I I do understand what your comment but if there were complaints there should be complaints on the record on record. uh den and just the fact there so the sign had
been up in this parking lot was a nondescript parking lot to begin with and there's one business tries to stand out which is commendable in this town considering the amount of empty storefronts we have in this town.
It's to put up roadblocks for businesses to succeed and for attract traffic to go to these businesses is a crime in itself. If you don't if they start harassing
that's wrong terms too strong. If you it's not harassment it's just why point this out? It's been so could a better way maybe handling this I don't know obviously now since you applied for it you open up Pandora's box and just
here's an applicant business is tough I'm sure spending extra money to do this is senseless in my in my my opinion is senseless we we've seen that block just be nondescript and I think it's a
very pos positive the thing and anybody who brings positivity to the streetscape is great and I'm just I'm a little irritated at the fact it took this long to get to this point. Now we all know the other permit and everybody knows that any businessman
knows that intrinsically they know they get permits for everything else. I'm sure the proper plans they're going to that question will come up with proper the proper legal advice that will come up. get a permit, put a sign. I hope it
stays there. Personally, I'm in favor of it, but it's, you know, I'm just one of and it to have it changed now would be Mr. Chair, could I speak after because
my name was mentioned, so I wanted to be very clear. So, I I think the hero sign is is beautiful. Also, I love urban art. Um I think it brings as stated by um brings a lot of enhancement to the community. But in the same regard, we
can't have unregulated artwork that anybody's um freedom to put anything on anywhere on a building um and everywhere. You you you can't allow that either. You can't have chaos happening across our town that anybody
can put anything up. And so this is why we have ordinances. And what's ironic and I have to say this so I I spoke how wonderful that sign is. It's beautiful that mural. We have a sign company that's attached to this that has signs up. And you would think
that a sign company that produces signs all over town and in other towns would be aware of ordinances and laws that you have to follow in any sign you put up on any building. And so I I'm flabbergasted
that a sign company that has a business that's been there for 10 years doesn't understand that there's ordinances that you have to follow for signs. So that kind of blows my mind. So I have to I have to do a little, you know, you know, smack there. Um, but I also agree that
there is a need for directional signs on the north side of that side of that building because you don't know where to go and we want to encourage small businesses in our community. It's very important. And so
you're making great use of that back space of that building, bringing a thriving business. But please use your expertise to help guide your clients on sign ordinances wherever you do your signs because you you're costing a lot
of time and trouble to a community that doesn't need it. So I need to make that point. Um and then if you would have followed the rules to begin with, um we we you wouldn't be debating whether a sign
is allowed or not allowed a mural and and and having to deal with variances and you had a great opportunity here as well if you wanted to look at this as a mural as a council person. I would have loved for you to come to the council to suggest that we should look at our
audiences on murals and for public art because we as a council should probably be looking and saying how do we encourage or monitor artwork in our community and use this as an example of something that could enhance and and I
would suggest that perhaps you come to our council meeting and bring this forward to the council. do collective council and the mayor to be able to discuss how we could um potentially look at our ordinances for mural art, public
art um within our bureau everywhere. Um and how do we um as a council and governing body administer that? And how can we do that? How can we engage the art uh council to help support that people who are talented artists to help
us find a way to ordinance that and and um approve it properly. So um with that I wanted to make those statements of how I like a lot and understand the need but also that we need to be able to find a balance in what we do and how we
>> thank I don't think it's a sign businesses responsibility to encourage to like enforce ordinance with their clients like an ice cream shop. I'm not saying he shouldn't enforce it, but but I'm saying that he's going to
>> I would say that's not his responsibility. >> Well, as a business, >> I feel like business is to make a sign. It's not to like explain the law of wherever it's going. >> I just don't think that's a fair statement. >> Let me clarify that. If you're going to
put a sign on a building and someone's paying you to do that, I would expect that that sign professional would say, "Hey, you know, this is check these ordinances is all I'm suggesting." >> Encouraging and following the law as always. >> Otherwise, an owner could come back and
say, "Why didn't you tell me I could put the sign up on the wall when I have to take it down and it's going to cost me money to build a new sign?" So, that's what I'm trying to get is the clarity that he doesn't have the conflict in his business in the future. I just want to clarify something. We've
said this is a sign because it says here warrant. If it didn't say love, it would be a mural. >> Correct. >> Which is not >> which is not permitted any
>> is it a mural though if it's on plywood and it's on the building or is a mural directly painted on the building? So let me just say that those questions are important but not to this particular application. There is a definition of
mural in our >> I assume there's a definition. So from that perspective we we didn't really consider oh this is a mural. We said this is a sign because it has some words on it and we made a
determination of what the variances are. So, it didn't qualify as a mural because it has words on it. A mural typically does not >> I guess where I was going with it is since we're getting into all these nuances of the ordinance, if you were to remove paralog from that
>> and it's on plywood and that no longer makes it a mural. >> Does it move? >> I don't think it's Do you know what I'm saying? >> It would still be I would say it would still be a sign >> because it's used for just a picture. It's used for advertising purposes. Um
>> I guess I'm just this is the point of this conversation I guess is >> sign or >> how do we better to your point, >> you know, talk about how we can enrich the community visually and do it in a way that allows more support rather than inhibiting that with some of these
regulations. The sign ordinance does not allow for signs to be painted directly on buildings and there are other places on Main Street where you know um businesses have gotten variances from that. I can think of a number of businesses across the street even that
have their signage painted on building and I think bu on the building um and I think some of the testimony was that you know the uniqueness of the building um and its location similar to the applicant tonight we have
to remember that you know that every application stands as its own merit >> um I think that, you know, I really agree with what Council said. Um, I think I know we're working on this application tonight, but in the sense that this
needs to be a larger, broader conversation across the town about the role that art plays in public displays of art play in our community. To that end, is that removable at this point? Because you said it's on plywood. >> Technically, yes.
>> Then it could come down in one piece. >> Uh, several pieces. >> Several pieces. Okay. Um and we are looking at this application as a whole. Correct. So you we can't bifurcate out anything that >> No. Go. >> That's correct.
>> Well, you could bifurcate between sign seal delivered in here. >> You could grant variances for one or two signs and not the third. >> Okay. Because I I do agree that I believe that sign seal delivered does have a hardship here. I never even knew that. I never knew how to get there. I
never knew there was a back alley. Um I probably couldn't fit through that hole. And um I've seen the signs and if I needed a sign, I would need a sign to tell me where to go to get the sign. Um but I at this point I'm I'm still a
little torn because I do love the hair love sign, but I think it being there and then the Ohaka having put up their own sign um is indicative of the fact that it causes signals at this point until we
can um actually decide what it is that we want to do as a community because they thought, "Hey, everyone else has signed up. Let me sign up." Um but that's where I am right now. So, >> no, >> no, the public portion's closed. I'm sorry.
Any other members? >> Yes. Um, I don't I doubt there's anybody here who doesn't love the way the sign looks, but it's not a question of love. We're here to interpret our zoning ordinances, and
we're here for a variance. And if you look at how it's defined, it's that the property faces a hardship due to its characteristics. And um I think it's for me it's easy to see the hardship that science building
delivered faces because of the nature of the building where it's hidden and you can't tell where it's coming from. Um but I don't think there's anything special about that that shows a hardship for hair love that's different than any other
building on Main Street which has a front. It actually has I mean it has sides two sides which many other businesses don't but it's it's not it's it's not missing anything that any other business doesn't. So I'd be inclined to
um grant relief to sign deliver but not to hair love because of those reasons. I would I would agree that well first of all I want to start off and say this is a teachable moment for a community. Unfortunately you are paying the bill
for um I want everyone to learn from this experience. There are a number of other buildings that have that same configuration where it sticks out farther than the corner properties. So there's there are a lot of other opportunity for people to try to come in
and ask for the same variance. Um it is an unusual configuration but um it is a very attractive sign and I do agree with the comments made by um about signal order that is totally a hardship no
matter what. Um I would have liked to have an opportunity to decide on a proposal in front of this board back then but obviously that didn't happen. Um but I do agree that
uh based on the principles of zoning uh item I uh to promote the visual environment through creative development techniques and good civic design arrangement. Um because it is on that parking lot which is not attractive
place. Um I I do believe that that applies >> ask question. >> So that's actually where I'm going is so according to what I just said that's you know not a C1 barrier. >> So um
>> I I agree uh that this I do not believe um the relief for the hairlo sign could be granted under the C1 criteria. There is really no hardship. You know, we looked at they have very attractive
frontage on the front of their sign. No one is going the front of their building. No one's going to miss their building by. I do believe, however, that um and I think what uh the chair was uh kind of referencing, I do believe that
um in reference the purposes of zoning. Uh the criteria can be granted under the C2 which is the flexible um zoning. Um and that you know they've I think they're they've been trying to illustrate that um in this instance in
this location allowing this signage to continue to be there is a a better zoning alternative and does not harm the um intent and purpose of the zoning ordinance. Um, I think, you know, we've heard testimony from the public um about
how beautiful and attractive the sign is and how, you know, it um adds some vibrancy to um an interesting block of the streetscape. Um, and so it uh,
you know, brightens up the parking lot a little bit. Um, so I think that you certainly there's no hardship here, but that's why the C2 um criteria exists as well. >> Could you give us a little clarity on the C2 specifically? What's the
statement of what the C2 is? >> So if my did not die, it's been a very long day. I will read directly from our letter. Um, boards may grant a C2 variance based
upon finding that the purposes of zoning enumerated in the MLUL which our chair referenced a purpose of zoning are advanced by the deviation from the ordinance um with the benefits of departing from the standards in the ordinance substantially outweighing any
detriment to the public good. Uh the Supreme Court ruling in the Kaufman verse planning board for Warren Township provides additional guidance on C2 variance is stating that the grant of approval must actually benefit the community in that it represents a b better zoning alternative for the
property. Uh the focus of the C2 case then will be the characteristics of the land that present an opportunity for improved zoning and planning that will benefit the community. And I think the testimony from the public and also the statements um from the board re members
in this instance really speak to the benefits of the community um in this instance. >> Thank you. Now we just opened up bit of Pandora's box and Mr. Cart's
acknowledgement that now the hot restaurant is going to be told to take their sign down because it's not allowed. But but from a layman's view, they're going to say, "Wait, you're telling me I
have to take my sign down?" But these two are >> so time out. Time out. Time out. I understand your concern. You know what I mean? I just don't want to open up the board to all a sudden I understand your
concern and the only reason that it was discussed with this applicant teny is because they should contact their landlord to have their landlord do what is necessary to be
compliant with our ordinance. It's not up to these applicants to do that. And but certainly we are all sitting here and any one of us theoretically we have an obligation to sort of say that sign's not permitted. If you want it come and get it come and
get it as a variance. You can't just hammer something into someone else's wall and think that it's correct. So uh and I don't think it's the obligation of these two to perhaps have a an issue
with a neighbor. I think the appropriate way to handle that is separate and apart from >> this applicant will be taking you down. >> I'm really glad to take it back. >> That shouldn't even be part of this application. >> We have no testimony, no evidence. We
have we have hearsay photograph. We have a photograph. >> Yeah, >> I know. We know it's a permanent sign, a temporary sign, knowing nothing about it. >> Yes. and to introduce that introduce it without it being introduced to the whole
group to see what it is. We don't know and how it's how it all of a sudden snuck into this application. >> It's it it didn't sneak in. They were talking about the building as it is today and as it is today is not representative of that picture from 2025.
>> But do we know the sign is from Ohaka is attached to this building or is it or is it temporary? It's attached to the building are not the time. >> I'm going to I'm going to just say this. I think it muddied the waters
unfortunately. I it it definitely did being brought in and yes it but it's not their sign. They're not promoting that business. They're not part of it. >> We didn't know that it wasn't their sign. >> But but then our our our sturdy zoning officer needs to go look at it. They're
going out there knocking look this out tomorrow. Somebody should be showing them that >> and we always say it's a case by case basis. So we're talking about their signs the these two businesses independent and that's what we're talking about. >> Right. But isn't the building owner represented here? >> Yes.
>> He doesn't know. Maybe that's >> Hold on a second. Here's the thing. >> There's a release in the packet for an on-site visit. So we are as board members obligated to go take a look for a sign release. We can't. >> I took a look at 5:32. The sign was
there. Mr. K took a look at what time, sir? >> During the meeting. >> Okay. For us to us to ignore the existence of that sign or mural, whatever it is, would be improper. So, it should be a part of this record. And the owner who owns the building has
agreed that it should be removed. And uh if if it's not, then we'll I'll call code one. >> Yeah, I understand. >> But I I feel like we'd be skirting our duties if we didn't do the sight inspection and see that just like any other application.
>> Okay. So, we are at times going forward field from what we need to do. However, I think that the owner is represented. They've agreed to this application and they will agree they have agreed to
comply with the resolution of the board. So if there is something that we want to say to Curry Enterprises Inc. about other signs on their building, we can say that in the resolution. >> I don't think we should say hair love
has to do this or sign say deliver has to do this whatever. The other thing is we need to get move on and we we have an unusual situation here legally because two applicants are in one application and I think and I think that C1 applies
to maybe one of the businesses and C2 applies to the other business. So, if we're making a motion, if all the you members are done talking, the board, we have closed the uh public session, the the applicant has
made all the comments that they're going to make. >> So, the motion needs to be >> C1 here, C2 there, so I can write it appropriately. >> Or however, go ahead. >> The board's planner, I would say. So, I, you know, said I think um hair love
could be granted under the C2. I think uh the other signs if the board chooses to act favorably could be granted under both the C1 and C2. I think um you know the unusual uh characteristics of the
lot, the fact that it has no frontage, that's certainly a C1 hardship type, but then also um because of the the unusual character of the lot. Um a better zoning alternative in this instance would be to
allow um for the signage so on the sides to identify those Do do we have a motion from the board? >> Make a motion, >> please, >> to uh approve um the variances
um C1 variance and C2 variance for uh sign seal delivered. Um I I know that one of the signs is slightly larger. It's four square feet larger over 40. So I
don't think I think Um and uh I would also and and for hair love C2 variance because I believe that it um does add to the character of the
town and I would rather look at that than the plain side of that building. >> Okay. >> So that's a motion. Second. >> I'll second that.
>> Second, >> Mr. Mayor. >> Yes. >> Miss Mahoney. >> Yes. I believe that they've demonstrated based on C1 and C2 that um this should be granted. >> Missy.
>> Uh yes. >> Mr. Bradley. >> Yeah, I certainly think that SC delivered has an exceptional hardship case and should be approved for that reason. Uh I think when they hear of love, I'm concerned about sign
proliferation in town precedent we're setting. But I think this situation is if that if that was just a sign that was on your awning that says hair love, you know, come get your hair done here. Wouldn't approve it. from the testimony we've heard about the artistic nature of
this and the beautifification that it brings to the town. I agree should approve that under C2 Mr. Wishb. >> Uh yes, I'm in favor of you. Uh, Councilman Nikki, >> as I stated earlier, I think that the
hairlo sign is is fantastic artwork and I would agree with a uh C2 variance and um the hardship for the signage uh for the um that C1 and C2 applies for the back property appropriately and I would
love for you to come into and present this to the council for consideration of how can we handle urban art in the future. Councilman Clark. >> Um, yes. And I want to say how important it is for
the public to be here. I will say that, you know, you have, you know, you get all the paperwork beforehand. You have your your initial feelings. You drive by the place every day. But um you know when you get the only
because of the input from the residents from the testimonies from the discussions here do you really get the s only because of that do you get the sense of the CT variance and I think that was really powerful and hearing all of that today. So thank you very much. So yes
>> Mr. Mayor >> art is in the eye of the whole look at that and say I think it's terrible. I don't other people Obviously, the audience has said they love it and they're in favor. I am in favor because
I think it enhances a very dingy part of a parking lot. It's having that sign up at least gives something to look at rather than a side of a building. We have plenty of that in town. This is an this is an enhancement
and obviously it's encouraged. The only thing I'm really geared though it's still back took six years to get here now. It's a wonder it's a wonderful yes teaching moment that the next time somebody has a mural or a sign they'll come before
the they'll get the proper uh approvals because again we don't want graffiti. We all want we want something that is a positive and enhances the look of the town whether wherever it be Main Street, the beachfront,
wherever. I'm in favor >> and chairman. >> Um I I will stand by my comment about the the purpose of zoning item I to promote desirable visual environment. Um I think the herop sign does do that and
I do agree with the se for sign sealed and delivered based on your unusual location and this is the best way to handle it. Um, also, you know, I was kind of hoping that we were going to get some testimony on traffic counts because that is the highest
traffic count wall in the entire town with the country farms traffic. So, um, I would vote yes. >> Congratulations. I went to the bakery for lunch today to check out the site. It was a really real
hardship on my Take a 5 minute break. >> Come on. I can usually agree. I agree. I know I mean temporary I have a question.
I told you. >> Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. That was a letter. The first day is dry. There's two different people. This is not This is not
in that next meeting. >> Oh, okay. Okay, that's enough. That's a >> we have the zoning the determination on the uh the ordinance whether it is
matches the master plan. Um this wrote a very nice uh overview. >> Sure. So you want me to go through that quickly? So this um organ you want you want it. >> Uh Mr. Bradley
>> here. >> Chair William >> here. >> Uh Councilman Clark >> here. Miss Mahoney >> here. >> Mr. Mayor >> here, >> Mr. Mayor >> here, >> Councilman Wiki >> here, >> Mine >> here, >> Mr. Witchaw >> here, >> Mr. Warick >> here, >> M >> here,
>> Mr. Frederick >> here, >> and Mr. West >> here. >> So, um, we're here tonight to look at ordinance 2026-24, um, to review it for consistency with
the master plan. Um, ordinance 2026 6-24 amends um the zoning chapter to create a new section section 450-72 which is uh titled relief for groundwater compliance to provide
limited building height relief where required for groundwater compliance and it also clarifies applicable definitions and I found it to be consistent with the master plan um in particular the 2018 master plan re-examination report
recommended that the bureau review the definitions of all of its terms in its ordinance for internal consistency with land use regulations and to update outdated terminology clarifying applicable definitions does that um and to regularly review the
regulations within the land development ordinance against its planning goals and objectives and clarifying amending and updating where appropriate. Um the proposed ordinance includes revisions um to the ordinance definitions as they relate to basement sellers crawl spaces
and incidental storage and it updates the land development ordinance to provide building height relief um for groundwater compliance as it relates to subgrade garages and basement um which is you know uh updating um the land
development ordinance uh were appropriate. So as such I believe it's consistent with the master plan. >> Um that being said the subgrade garages were handled under the previous ordinance change. >> Correct. >> Correct. Okay. >> That was
2619. 20 2619. >> We looked at that. Was it the last meeting or two meetings? >> Two meetings. >> Two meetings ago. Yeah. U but there there are I mean I I did conference a little bit with Mr. Zudo
and there are some issues um >> yes that I think we should just review and it's it's basically semantics and correct and legal concepts in terms of the ordinance I'm assuming there going to be minor changes when it gets sent to the uh to the council.
>> Right. So obviously the um recommendation of the plan planner and her finding of consistency is what you are going to be voting on tonight. What I'm going to tell you about is that there's some language in the ordinance that needs to be tightened up a little
bit so that there is no uh problem with everyone understanding what the definitions are and understanding what the purpose of it is. What I have to say is not about whether it is consistent with the master plan or not. Christine's
report covers that and that's what you are going to have your vote on. However, I did have some general things that I have to change throughout the ordinance. For example, at one point it says uh consistent with this ordinance. Then it
says consistent with chapter this chapter. Then it says consistent with the code. So there are multiple things being said that are inaccurate. In other words, we want to say we need to have um
for example in the basement definition in the third section we need to specify that we mean chapter 450 of the zoning which is the zoning code. So it's going to read
burrow code chapter 450 zoning is so that there's no discrepancy about what we are relying upon. That happens a number of times throughout the the definitions that we're doing and through I don't think there's anything in the
actual ordinance. So, what you are doing is you're putting three definitions into the definition section and then you're having the meat of the ordinance, which is what we're going to do if someone needs to do a groundwater compliance
application, not just to us. The first application for that goes to the zoning officer. If the zoning officer grants it, we don't see it. So if there is a variance, we will see it and we will have the paperwork that is talked about
in this ordinance. So in my uh referral letter over to the governing body, I'm going to tell them about the changes that we are seeking for the semantic type of language. One of the I just take
them briefly from the start of the uh of the six pages of this ordinance. First, I'm going to put some page numbers in it because we need page numbers. Uh also I find that the whereas clauses of three
the third whereas clause on the first page and the fourth whereas clause in on the first page are unnecessary to the adoption of this ordinance and they're
uh they're um they're not helpful for the application of this ordinance. All that really needs to be said here in the whereases is whereas the burrow finds it is necessary to clarify how groundwater related height relief affects
classification of spaces the basement the cellar or the crawl space. I find that the whereas clauses uh that I am seeking the council to strike uh are you know somewhat negative and we don't want we want this to be a positive thing.
It's not a negative thing. Does anyone have a question about that part? >> Okay, we move on. >> I got a question. So, you're saying the very strict application maximum ability may create hardship and discourage compliance, right? >> That's one that you wanted to start. >> Yeah.
>> I think the intent of that was that we're trying to give some rationale. >> Yes. Yes. And my problem with this is it's it's as if um uh we are inviting someone to determine that uh they have a
hardship with maximum building height about maximum building height. The the purpose of this ordinance is they have a groundwater compliance issue not a height issue. So I find that this
language is unnecessary and muddies the waters. >> What causes the other though? >> Yeah, I I understand what you're saying, but it's not something that we need in the legislative history of this ordinance, which is what the whereas clauses are. Uh and if there is a
challenge by any chance to this ordinance or some applicant in the future, that language is not helpful to the burrow and not necessary for this ordinance and that is also accurate for the next one. Uh and the language in
that whereas >> we're criticizing our own ordinance and really a planner I believe would have >> I don't know what Miss Bell is going to say. Well, in any event, I just want to kind of >> Well, so I think that this um what
you're criticizing is really it has nothing to do with the planning aspect of the ordinance is the >> the legality of the ordinance and the way it's written legally. I mean, I think cleaning up um the ordinance, the the language and the definitions
>> code ordinance. Yeah. I I'm sure um you know there might be other instances throughout the land use ordinance where it says this ordinance or chapter probably typically says you know section whatever. Um I would think
just for consistency it makes sense to do that. >> Um I am not an an attorney an attorney I'm sorry like you said it's been a very long week. um day uh um I wouldn't touch
personally right like for me as a planner I I don't even really look at the where sections because that's not I don't have anything to do with that that is a legal >> issue I mean our intent is to or I believe the intent of the council I know
but I'll speak for my own intent is that you know people are impacted by the additional two feet I read >> if they want a basement they need relief and that way they they're granted the height relief if their basement
situation and were table block. We really don't want people to come in and say, "I want more volume. I want that extra two feet and it's your fault because your ordinances are inconsistent and ambiguous." >> That's already happened. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Okay.
>> So, the building department got a uh the construction office got say, "Oh, we submitted plans, but we want to change them. We'd like two more feet of >> Yeah. So, >> which I think that is the intent of this ordinance, right? To clear up the ambiguity and that is um why I found it
to be consistent with your master plan because your master plan >> um recommends you know you re-evaluate the ordinances and clean them up. Um and that is the the job of this board is to determine whether or not it is
consistent with the master plan. if you have, you know, issues with the ordinance that um things you'd recommend to the council for them to review or clean up as as you have in the past, you can certainly direct um your attorney to
put them in the memo to clean them up, but really your job is only consistency with the master. I mean, historically, we've agreed on the consistency with notes, and I that's what I'm thinking we're going to, >> right? Yes. >> Okay.
>> And I'm certainly going to review it with uh the town attorney, the burough attorney, >> and make sure you know he's okay with it. Uh moving on to definition of basement. I I also am suggesting a format issue because the definition now is going from
one paragraph to six. So, we're going to label we're going to label those paragraphs A B CDE E. It's just better for reading the paragraphs. And a judge can say, I'm going to strike section B of the basement definition and leave
everything else, right? He doesn't have to decide between, you know, it it helps in the overall looking at at things. The only thing that uh I have a problem with
in other than you know borrow code, borrow ordinance, chapter, I'll change those. But in the definition in the very first paragraph, we have a problem with um it should be a
height of at least 7 feet. And all your other definitions say that at least. In other words, it's seller. It's fine. And in seller, meaning the seller, like not a seller or a buyer, seller and
crawl space, you don't you don't have it says at least. So, this is something that we're going to fix in the basement. And Mr. Karp is shaking his head. Correct. >> At least >> also in the last section of basement.
And this two is repeated in the seller definition and in the uh uh crawlspace definition. So if you're looking at it, it's the last section. For purposes of enforcement, the classification of a basement shall be determined based upon
physical characteristics, actual or intended use, not what the architect puts on his plans. That's a illustrious purpose that we want to meet. But I also want to put in it's based upon this
definition as well as what the physical characteristics are and what the actual or intended use. So in each of the three um definitions, I'm going to put based on this definition because that's the
first thing a zoning officer or a code officer should look at. doesn't meet the the the definition section. So that's again that's a clarification that is apparent to me. And so that's what we're
going to do there. Uh I'll talk about incidental storage when we get to that definition because that's the fourth definition. But again looking now at seller the definition of seller and there are there are a b cde e. So these
five paragraphs now in the third paragraph in the third paragraph a seller shall be considered a nonhabitable space. We don't want anyone having a bedroom or a kitchen in the
cellar or in the crawl space. What we are saying to them is it can't be used for sleeping, living or dwelling. And then uh it says shall be limited to storage, building systems and utilities.
In the crawl space, you also have mechanical equipment and you also have a difference between storage and incidental storage. So for consistency in these definitions, I think that
saying that a crawl space and In this case, the seller can be for storage, incidental storage, building systems, mechanical and utilities.
So now we have we we have the now just understand in basement which is seven feet or more uh we're not putting what they can do in the basement. They can do anything in the basement other than it shall be it. They can even have it
habitable in the basement. So, we don't tell them suggestions about what they can do in the sellar and crawl space definitions. We give them ideas that don't include habitability. No habitability in sellers or crawl spaces.
So, again, I'm going to use the consistent language. Also, I find that using the terminology of permitted uses is inappropriate in these definitions because we do not zone for a room called
a basement and say what are the permitted uses in the basement. What we do say is the usage in the basement can be so that's what I want to put there. The uses usage in basement can be storage, mechanical,
uh the five things that you do have. So the term permitted uses is a term of art in drafting land use ordinances and it mucks things up. Go ahead. >> When you say usages can be though. Yeah. So you're suggesting that these can be
it doesn't limit only to those. >> I know. And and and but if you read what you say, you say shall be limited, >> right? No, you're changing that that you're not limited. >> No, I'm going to say usage instead of saying permitted uses, I'm going to say
usage of a seller shall be limited to storage, building systems, utilities. >> Okay. >> Okay. I thought it was such it can be such as which open. >> No, we're going to be specific and theoretically like,
>> you know, I can't figure what someone would want to do in a cellar that's not 7 feet tall. Uh I guess you could put a you could put a a game room in there or something, but we're not saying we're not suggesting game rooms in under seven
feet. We're not suggesting game rooms in crawl space. We're saying use it for storage, use it for mechanicals, use it for utilities, put your put your uh machines down there, whatever you need to do, that's fine. But we don't want it being used as living space. Most
definitely not live living space. Uh so that's that. Now crawl space again, if there whenever there's a section reference, we're going to have the section that we're talking about. Uh again, it says
permitted uses. I'm going to say a crawl space, the usage for a crawl space shall be limited to. And I'm going to repeat the five things that you have. And that's all I have to say with respect to this. The incidental storage. >> Can I cover that one?
>> What? >> The incidental storage. >> Yeah, but >> Okay. >> Yeah, but you have to say certain things. >> Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, I think the the first three bullet points are not really necessary. Um, to say uh it it
can't include furniture, appliances, or materials indicative of habitable occupancy. People are going to want to store their outdoor furniture and things in there. So, space, >> you know, so I think there's really no reason for that. >> Um, and it doesn't involve the installation of shelving, partitions, or
flooring. I mean, I' I've had a crawl space that was six blocks and I had carpeting down there to get to my shelving at the other end. I mean, it was it's storage. So, I don't believe that should be covered there. And then the fourth bullet point, it says it does
not include the storage of hazardous, perishable or uh flood susceptible materials. I think we should just strike perishable or flood susceptible materials. Everything is flood susceptible. So, um I think you
can just cut that right in half. does not include the storage of hazardous material and leave it at that. >> Yeah, >> those are those were my notes if anyone has any different. Um yeah and again with that section what
um what the writing is is ins says incidental storage shall be characterized by all of the following but all of the following is actually not what inst not what incidental storage is. They all say it's it's not
furniture, it's not shelving, it's not you know all of the so it's a reverse negative basically. So, I'm going to clean that up. >> And I'm going to, you know, I think I even said we should distinguish and
allow indoor furniture in cra I mean outdoor furniture in crawl space. >> Again, I don't think we should be too restrictive. I mean, no hazardous materials. You can put your bikes down there or whatever else you can fit, but there's no reason for us to be that involved with it. But but again, we're going to uh you know, determine, you
know, the letter will reflect based on our vote tonight. The determination >> who's enforcing what is being stored where. >> Exactly. Well, I think the issue that comes in is say code goes in there for some reason. >> Okay. Because they have to because
whatever and they identify it. You need to have some clarity. >> Yeah. think about that because there could be and this is what I thought about >> all of a sudden you see a bed set up down there >> you're like well wait a second I'm just storing that bed why is there bedding on
it I mean I mean so you can get into these areas so some guidance from me well what do you notude >> I think you differentiate between outdoor and indoor in that case you know but like >> but I might have an old bed that I just
want to you know the headboard books store down there or some extra chairs for my dining room. What's wrong with that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, >> well, it's a crawl space. That stuff will last in a crawl. I mean, presumably a crawl space is open sumps.
>> Not all. >> No. I have a crawl space that's not open to the exterior. It's It's a bathtub section that is sealed. It has suck pumps, but I you know, I use it for some storage, but you know, >> I have two side room chairs sitting on there wrapped in plastic. Yeah.
>> So, why can't I do that? And it's only 4 feet tall. Grant I'm 66. It's a pain in the ass. It's right by the step so I can grab a chair and bring it up. >> So, that when I read that, I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm not going to be in compliance. I have I have a chair stored down there."
>> Okay. So, I think that we I think that I am hearing that you're okay with what this is, but clean it up a little bit, >> right? and and get rid of the I don't think we should be so restrictive, but there has to be some level of >> Well, do you agree with what the chair
said? He doesn't want to put in bullet point >> uh bullet points the first three and then the second half of the fourth one. >> Yeah, I'm okay with that because that basically takes out the the limitation of you can store furniture down there,
but >> yeah. >> Yeah. And the fourth one we are going to say hazardous materials are are are prohibited. Okay. Hazard. No, you can't store. >> Can you store a can of paint down there? >> Is that hazard? >> Latex.
>> Yeah. No. >> Well, I I don't know. That's what I'm saying. >> The definition flammable. >> Yeah. >> But again, it's it's not our purview to be inspecting these things. It's >> Well, that's what that's what uh
Christie is saying. And of course that enacting an ordinance that isn't going to be uh easily enforced. It's only going to be enforced if if a code enforcement officer happens to go there to to see something and see some. So
then he would they don't issue a violation right away. They give him a warning and time to comply. So if he saw 25 cans of paint, he would tell the guy, "You're trying to you're trying to burn down your house. take that out of that false piece.
>> I don't know. >> But that doesn't necessarily stop us from putting >> 25 of putting a regulation in place, right? There's something that says you can't have a garbage disposal in your sink. >> I bet you there are garbage disposals in
Bradley Beach because no one's ever >> dispos. >> We'll talk about that later. I want to know why >> because the age of our schools >> it's a problem every time I have one they broke >> so is the consensus one two three and
part of four are getting eliminated or am I putting hazardous materials >> again these are these are just memos for the council so we'll let them >> they make the final decision >> yeah exactly we we're just happy to share our opinion >> okay now the last two are what I call
kitchen sink sink. I like kitchen sink when it's appropriate. So in section, this is in the ordinance itself. In section D, we say what does an applicant have to document to us. Now when I say
us, the first person that looks at this is a zoning officer. And if he grants it, that's fine because there's no variances. Otherwise, we get it and we want these things. And by the way, I went over all of this with Mike today, especially because it's engineering wise
important and Christine was was he talked to Christine as well about this. So in that section, all of these four things are what we would need to make the determination. But I like to put in such other items as are reasonably
necessary to demonstrate compliance. That's a kitchen sink in case you want to say to him, "We want your birth certificate, too." Whatever. You know what I mean? So, you put the kitchen sink. The the next thing that I am going
to do is a new section F. And the reason for this is because you have made substantial changes to definitions. And I know from experience that only the lawyers usually look at the definitions. The architects forget to look at them.
And sometimes the engineers forget to look at them and then you get a plan that follows what 45072 says but has no idea that we changed the definitions in the basement. So in F I'm
going to state there are specific definitions relevant to this code section 72. Go look at the definition section. So, I'm throwing that in there so that no one has an excuse up here. Oh, I didn't know to look at the definition.
We told you look at the definition. So, that that is a change that I call kitchen sink. >> Perfect. Can I ask one question? >> Yes. >> One question. But you kind didn't get over the relief for groundwater lines. >> Yeah. >> Is this the is it the is it the town's
intent to allow people to raise the houses 2 feet? Is it their intent? Well, why not if it if they have a basement, they can turn into a crawl space and you don't have to raise a house. Is is there
is there is there a way? This is what this is what we want. Houses being raised two feet automatically if they had groundwater issues without I'm not saying they may come in with a a basement. I mean a crawl space or a cellar as a instead of a basement. If
they have a basement should be stated that Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is a last resort. >> Yeah. So So just as an example, I mammoth I built the new house, right? And my groundwater was way high. Yeah.
>> And I chose not to put a basement in and put a crawl space because height and exact was limited to a 35 foot height. So, I couldn't do a basement unless I wanted to shrink my my ceilings and each floor. And then even then, I don't know if I could have accomplished it. But I
but I also knew I couldn't go any deeper even though I was, you know, because I knew the groundwater was there. So, what the intent of this was was that why are we limiting people to the 35t height? Because we can encourage them to and and
then lie by the not not do the groundwater. Live by the groundwater elevations. That's why we stuck here. You have to document it. >> Yes. >> Um but to still allow people to be able to have a full height basement. Why 30 Where did 35 feet come from? >> Well, you can't make that.
>> And so we could go to 37t or 38 ft. What's the difference? >> They used to be well the half there's a half story issue. Remember the half story issue and we had we approved previous board approved some
uh projects that allowed uh over height. I was out of there. I was >> you the biggest also does add one more point to this. We're also thinking about the the the real kef zone that is kind of becoming
July 20th unless it gets pushed off. And what that's going to do is say you can't have any basement. The whole everything everything uh east of Madison or east of Fletcher Lake basically is not going to be able to have basements, crawl spaces
or anything with any equipment in them based on the DV Rale rules. And so and so everything right now, >> okay, but right now we don't know that we have as a town we have to react to that. And so, so we're looking at all this knowing that and this really would
start to apply towards the western part of the town where you're not going to be in calf. So, right now in the eastern part where calf is coming, this still applies. But if calf happens, >> well, they take we deal with it then. >> Well, and and we're not dealing with that today.
>> I just wonder though is the town's intent though. >> Yes. that you can do that you potentially so so you can maintain it and still build a basement comply with the ground water rules and you could raise your house up those extra two feet >> there should be some some language in there as that should be the last resort
you have a basement and you'll be forced to go up two feet then bring your basement down >> you're not forced to go up two feet >> no people going to you know >> they're going to take advant you were you were a gracious home >> I could have responsible builder when you built because you didn't go for the
basement option. You were kind and you were tall space and we stuck to the the height requirement. >> We see people all the time who want more more, >> right? >> So, so that I just feel like giving them the two inches it's like or giving them two feet. It's giving them
>> miles like you know that that people are going to want because they're going to just see if they can get it >> and then seconds and then we're going to be >> we're limiting all the seal. We're maintaining every um more elevation, >> but still 8 8 9
>> as it is as it is today. And so what we're saying is is we're still going to we're going to if you comply with this because your groundwater and you have a perched t water table, your ne your neighbor may not, but I do. Why can't I have a basement? So we're allowing that to happen. >> The logic was though why we didn't much
staggered roof lines looking down streetscape. >> You have that already. Uh but you're going to exacerbate it. If if things get redeveloped, you will exacerbate it. People are sitting on high water tables. The house is going to come up. It's guaranteed. >> Yes. >> But it doesn't necessarily have to
unless they if they came in with a crawl space and it's they're just barely above the wall like then this then this >> we could we could do that. We could say you're not use you have a high water table and you just aren't going to be able to put a basement in. And what happens you can't put a false basement
in? Well, then you have a slap. That's the way it goes. That's just the way it goes. >> Or or are they going to come in for variances? >> They can come and they're going to come or say, "I'm going to raise my elevation of my lot so I can so >> has that been defined yet?"
>> No, those would be variances. Those would all be variances. >> But so we're also trying to limit this board's necessity to roll out more and more variances because we institute a ground control. We're not looking to
create more more load. We're trying to find something that's a balance for community and development to be able to afford a resident builder to be able to build what everybody else is building today. >> I think it's very magnanimous the
viewpoint of it. But I have I have a feeling that see all the years you give an inch here >> people are going to come and they're going they're going to push it and >> only they had the groundwater they're going to push it to get the the additional height.
>> But is it we want though raised houses raised above when you could keep it at the 35 ft as part of DC >> you were kind. But that's my point. We see people in front of us who are greedy and they just and and I always think
this way which is awful. If you want, you know, more than three or four variances, you're just overreaching being greedy. And we see that all the time. And that goes to the whole roof line thing. Like it's just what are we big picture planning on our vision for
the town and this is the opportunity to have a vision and to be kind and to think long term, >> right? And so can you really tell a difference? >> That's my concern. Can you really tell the difference of two feet? Can you really see the difference of two feet? When you look 35
to 37 ft not see the difference. >> I I totally agree with you because I've had that discussion. You're not going to see you're not going to see >> it's not like this. It's 2 feet and and and over 30 in the area is just the point at all. >> And and the other problem we have in
this town is that there's a property here that's elevated 7 ft of fill >> that we're using as our resident grade. The next house doesn't have that fill and but but but that ground levels only 35 ft. So you're you already have seven feet of a difference of the height of
elevations. That's all over the town. >> It is. And when you sit on your porch then that person cuz the house next door they're jacked up that high and the other person is jacked up that low. >> And and we're not allowing anybody and we're not allowing anybody to come back in and add more fill to make it equal to
that house next door. Legit. So, so, so how are so how much do we constrain development and not allow it when we there's an easy way to solve a problem to really what is important is the groundwater a two-ft elevation
difference we felt or I feel personally that I think it's the relief of that is um responsible and and I would have loved to been able to have that opportunity for relief when I built mine I don't know that I would have put a basement in but um I would have been
able to raise my house an extra two feet and be able maybe still to put it and and get myself further out of the out of the flood way um that now I'm going to have to deal with with with calf because now I you know >> when that happens forget it >> well 50 years from now I'm going to be bailing you know
>> but my point is that's the intent so so you know what I'm saying that's the intent you ask the question that was the intent >> the intent was to balance Well, the I view I view it as, you know, the the groundwater is a problem that
I want to ask you. Um, you know, every one of these new houses that that gets built has underground recharacts of that underground recharge on the on the seasonal high. I mean, we used to just let it run down
the driveway off the gutters, done. Now we're retaining it and it's it's perking into the groundwater and you know we're keeping it off the surface, but now are we building up our groundwater? >> That's a tough question.
>> Um, yes. I mean, you're you're if you're pumping it out, you're lowering your groundwater levels, but if you're perking it, you're putting it back in there. Um, >> okay. I mean I mean in 2023 we you know that that fall I I pumped out three basement for I mean it's it's a problem
and basically the council has pushed it to 2 feet to get people farther away and they're they're just giving them the same volume they would have had before but now they're protecting them from the from the water and we're sending the message to NJP that you know we
understand our local uh impacts and we're dealing with them. I think they need to understand that. But, you know, we'd rather do it here under home rule than have them dictate what it's going to be. Um, and when real does come, these 37 foot houses are going to look
small. >> Was there also what height was there any relevance to fire department reach once you get over certain height? has certain difficult
>> I hear that incorrectly somewhere >> change >> I don't know their limits >> it's a good good point though I thought somebody mentioned that once that's why you're not allowed to go 35 >> ft ladders >> I heard that at Shore hospital that the
tower that they built it was top two floors their offices in the hotel or hospital rooms I should say he goes they can't get That's a very valid point. You know, do we have fire that can reach up to what elevation? That's that's a
>> well, we should ask we should ask if we have to if we have to conform with >> the real rules on as of July 20th. >> They don't care. >> They told us we have to allow four feet. >> Well, well, I mean, >> but I mean we they didn't tell us we
have to allow four feet. They want people to build four feet above what currently is, >> right? Which means >> but in our town >> that would be 39. We allow 35. That would be 39. >> Or or you say no, you only can do 35.
No, it says you only can go 35, but you're going to raise everything up. So you're just going to squeeze your house envelope, but now you can only build a smaller volume of home. >> Yeah. >> And reach in the cafe zone >> and they're going to want full build >> and which then, you know, affects everything. I mean section C I mean
covers it because we're limiting the volume based on the floor ceiling. So we're we're taking that into into account taking away two feet from from below. We're giving it above but we're getting people away from from the work
table. So I mean I I believe it is consistent with master plan and and again it shows that we understand the conditions here. So those are my feelings on I'll let the board make a motion on, you know, their determination.
>> Make a motion that this is consistent. >> The changes are cleaning up. >> Yeah. Well, I'm just doing a separate letter for that. It'll go separately in the master uh report.
>> Yeah. Usually I send like a transmitter. I'll include >> Yes. >> a letter with recommendations. >> Yes. Correct. And I think they they're having it on uh June 4th. So we want to get that in. I want to discuss with uh Greg Canon.
>> Okay. >> And then you know get that get that out there. What is the window that new these new rules if they ever go through? >> So, well, they've been adopted. >> July 20th. >> July 20th is when um the grandfathering
ends. So they've been adopted but for the first 180 days uh you can you know your grandfather kind of under what is existing previously to January 20th but as of
July 20th they will be completely in effect unless something changes between then and now. So anybody So anybody who submits permit applications >> prior to that day >> in the in the calf zone which is almost
like Fletcher Lake from Ocean Avenue for the whole length of the town pretty much we will not be able to get a building permit >> because we don't have our ordinances in place to allow them to build. So there
is a um I believe NJD did release the uh new model flood damage prevention ordinance which like kind of grinds my gears a little bit because I don't think they realize how expensive like it is to a municipality
to update their flood ordinance. Right. And they had every municipality in the state of New Jersey update their flood ordinance in 2022. Yeah. >> So now it's four years later. Um, and I believe uh every municipality will have
until January 20th, 2027 to update their flood ordinance to be compliant with the uh real rules. >> But no permit until we do that, we can't have >> Yeah. And the resolution we did to the
governor and the assembly was to give us the model ordinances, give us the direction. >> So, the model ordinances have been out for a few weeks, a month, I don't know. Um, I do know that most towns I work in
have not been chomping at the bit to update their flood ordinance. They're like, let's kind of just wait and see what happens come >> July, you know? There are lawsuits. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The lawsuits are here. >> Well, there are two lawsuits, campaign.
One is we're in it because we're in Mammoth County. So, Mammoth County, Ocean County, and Kate May are in one lawsuit. It's a that's a big one. Then the other one is a builder association. >> New Jersey Building Association. But the
other aspect that might come and what what you all should be aware of and you probably are but and I didn't realize this is that the um the DP did this without the benefit of legislation. They
did it as part of their rule making authority. Normally the people that you elect, >> it's called delegation. Yeah. And they that's illegal, >> right? The people that you elect create a law and then they tell their agency
make rules. There is no law supporting these rules. They were done by the D because the Determined that we want to follow rules for 2100, the year 2100, 75 years from now, we want to file rules.
Now the legislature has taken up because the legislature can overrule the overrule these rules. >> They're going to do their job. >> They can do their job. They're elected to make big decisions like this kind of
uh this kind of regulation which costs people a lot of money, you know, >> and and and so now they're mad that someone else did it and they they could they have introduced legislation to knock the real rules out. We don't know
if any of this is going to happen at any time. So, we're we're we're doing something affirmative here to deal with our town. Fine. Uh and and whether or not real comes in is going to be it's clear
>> like Chris like like like um uh Christine said, they're in effect right now. If you are able to get a package into the D by July 20th, that's not the end. You have to be approved. >> Not the D to to >> the municipality. Yeah. for the
municipality by July 20th. After July 20th, you had to submit your permit >> to GP to to the D as well as have our ordinances in place. >> Right. >> Only if only if you're in the C. >> If you're the C. >> Okay. I see. I understand that.
>> I think did you make a motion? >> Yes, I did. >> Yes. Motion. I now you are my second correct >> Mr. Mayor. >> Yes. >> Miss Mahoney. >> Yes. Miss >> Mr. Bad,
>> yes. >> Mr. Wish, >> yes. >> Councilman Wiki, >> yes. >> Councilman Clark, >> yes. >> Um, Mr. Warette, >> yes. >> Miss Lady, >> yes. >> Mr. Frederick, >> yes. >> Mr. West, >> yes. >> Mr. Mayor, >> yes. >> And Cherin,
>> yes. >> How many people is that, please? >> Oh, it's a lot. >> A lot. >> I mean, 13. >> 13. Okay. That's That's what I have. 13. Okay, >> I'll be sending that up to the
>> get it to them. We have we have no old business. Do you have any scheduling? >> We do have stuff next month. >> Um, okay. So, we already know Miss Ley will not be here. So, if there's anybody else who will not be in attendance, please let me know.
>> What's the date of that? >> That is uh June 18th. >> Okay. So, Yeah, think about your schedule. >> I thought it was the following week, the 25th. >> Think about your summer schedules because we have some applications. We're not quite sure.
>> I have potentially three somewhat smaller applications. Um, >> well, two two are one maybe not so I'm a little scared. I try not to
schedule more than like one application, >> but um I don't really have a choice. So, >> are they represented? >> Um represented. >> One is an attorney. >> Oh, >> what about the use variance? Is there a lawyer on that case? >> Uh no, there is not.
>> One of them was a use variance. >> Uh yes. >> And um the one um I'm just waiting on the completeness. I think it's the fence. >> The fence in somebody's looking for a fence in the front yard.
>> I'll try reaching out to them and they didn't provide any det. >> They didn't. >> Okay. So, possibly three, definitely two that I know of because I sent them the scheduling letter. So, there's definitely two. One's a use and one is
uh to retain something that they got a notice from code enforcement. Um >> it was >> they were approved to do something and I guess I don't know. something else. >> They It was They have um >> pavers
uh in their apron and stuff. >> Yeah, they did a paper stone apron instead of concrete. They went to the town, got construction, everything, and six years later they're flagging for having a paper, >> but the permits were >> they got permits, they got approval, they
>> I don't know that for that >> six years about 20 I'll have to double check. I think it was about six years. Uh, we're not going to talk about the application. >> Anything for July? >> Um, as of right now, nothing for July.
>> Okay. So, we'll do a vacation. >> That would be >> Are we scheduled for August? >> We are. >> We are. Okay. >> We are. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Where are we? Anyway, >> I need to know what I was doing.
>> I think what I wanted you to do was I wanted to stand up and say, "What should I do? She looks good.