We're ready to get started. Like to call the commission uh the value adjustment board uh meeting to order. >> Was the staff call the role? >> No, we don't have a role.
>> Oh, okay. We'll do that. I don't see an agenda here, so I didn't know. >> Um Yeah. Okay. You give it to him. He's gave me his. >> All right. Good. Um, now I have an agenda. Excellent. All right. We'll
begin with the pledge of allegiance. >> Aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay.
>> Okay. Item C, ratify legal counsel. >> I can briefly speak to this. It's this is required to be the first um action item on the organizational meeting agenda. Uh, I know that the staff has proposed myself to continue as legal counsel. The terms are unchanged other
than the the time frame. Um, and they've they've been significantly the same for the last few years. >> Okay. Any any questions? I know we I know at the last what the last not the last meeting, but maybe two
meetings ago, we ratified your contract at that meeting. I assume that was for a year. What was what was >> I believe that that was um that was for the interim period. >> Okay. >> So to bridge the gap between the end of
the last cycle and today basically. >> Okay. All right. So that was more of a bridge agreement. Okay. All right. Is there a motion to >> move to approve? >> Move to ratify legal counsel. I got a second. Um any discussion?
All those in favor signify. Can we just vote as a group? We don't have to do a roll call vote. Okay. All those signify by saying I. I. >> I. Opposed. Nay. Passes unanimously. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So now we'll do the introduction. Um and
um now we appointed myself as chair at the last commission meeting, but I had a question about that. Does the value adjustment board need to make that decision or does that come from the commission? >> It does come from the commission. >> Okay. So, I'm I'm the chair.
>> Right. >> I was volunteered for that. >> Were you at that meeting when they did it? >> I was there >> because usually they they like to choose the person that's not there. >> And Commissioner Atinson's our vice chair. >> Do we have a vice chair? Does it need to
be a commissioner or can it be anybody? >> It does have to be a commissioner. It does. >> And it also would be appointed by the commission. There does not have to be one, >> but not Okay. >> Yes. >> Well, you're the only other. >> Okay. Good. >> All right. I don't think you have much
of a choice, do you? She's not ready yet. >> Okay. So, I'd like um I'll introduce myself, Thad Alman. I'm county commissioner, District 5. It's a great honor to be a part of the value adjustment board. I think we have a very important role in the process. We have a
great appraisal appraiser that we work with and a great county. It's always interesting. Um looking forward to a new year and a new tax role. >> And we'll start next with our vice chair. >> I'm Kim Edison. I am county commissioner
district three. Um and I'm actually kind of interested and excited about the VA. That's all for me. >> Matt Susan, Bard County School Board, District 4. Thanks. >> Hello. Rob Adams, a resident of Indian Harbor Beach.
>> I'm Bob Springer. I'm retired and I'm a resident of Merit Island. >> Aaron Thalitzer. I'm legal counsel. >> Okay. We should have you guys introduce yourself and your role. >> I'm Jason Arthur, Chief Deputy Office.
>> Great. Well, thank you for your support that you give us with the clerk's office. >> Um, yeah. Okay. It says, "Provide contact information of VAB members and clerk staff." What does
that mean? >> That's >> Oh, this is it right here. Okay. It was been handed out. Okay. So, >> and it's on our website as well. >> We've got all the contact information. Excellent. Now, that said,
um I'm sure we have thousands of people watching this exciting meeting on the line. That said, we are prohibited from speaking. If somebody contacts us about a VAB issue, we are not allowed to talk.
We can't have exparte communication, can we? If it's about a specific case, absolutely that's correct. If it's a general VAB concern, then yeah, you can speak about that. >> And what would be a general concern? >> Maybe the the rules that the VAB has passed could be any of the issues really
at today's meeting because none of them pertain to specific cases, >> right? >> Specific cases. Uh somebody calls us about their assessment. We can't tell. What if just hypothetically, let's hypothetically say somebody knows they're going to appeal
But they haven't done that yet and they want to talk to us about it. Now, my gut instinct is no. What >> that that would be my instinct as well. >> Go talk to your the property. I >> I would point them to the to the clerk actually if they have a you know maybe a
procedural question um before anyone connected to the VAB, myself, the board members or the clerk can discuss >> anything substantive related to a petition or I I would be cautious and say a potential petition. I would at the very least want the property appraiser
to be in the loop and a part of that communication. >> Okay. Excellent. Okay. All right. Next, we have the minutes. Uh need a motion for approval of the April 25th, >> May 5th and May 12th minutes. A motion
for approval. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Second. Second by Commissioner Access. >> Um all in favor signify by saying yay. Yay. >> Opposed. Nay. No opposed. Passes unanimously. Okay. And we okay that we class those
three amendments as a block. New business. Uh appoint special magistrates uh 2025 tax cycle VAB council uh memorandum are reference special magistrate applications. >> Yeah. I submitted uh memos regarding the
special magistrate applicants. All I believe all the applicants this year were qualified and most if not all of them have served the VAB in past years. I recommend a motion to appoint all of them and that can be taken either all at once or separately between the the three
different types of magistrates. >> Well, let's see if all at once works. If if nobody has any opposition, they agree with that. A motion to approve all the applicants would be um >> move to approve all applicants. Motion by school board
member Susen. Second. >> Second. >> Second by Commissioner Atinson. All any discussion? All those in favor in favor signify by saying yay. >> Yay. Opposed. Nay. >> Motion passes unanimously.
Um number two, discuss memorandum uh reference to legislative updates for VAB. >> I'll cover that one. And this kind of leads into the next item as well. Uh in between the last meeting and today's meeting, the legislature uh passed a bill which made some significant changes
for the VAB. Uh uh the one most relevant to today's meeting is increasing the maximum filing fee that the VAB uh can uh introduce or can adopt. For decades, it's been $15 per petition. The maximum
has now increased to $50 uh per petition. So, the board has discretion to adopt a filing fee anywhere within probably the range from 0 to 50, though uh a $0 fee uh well was actually passed
by a VAB, I believe, earlier this week or last week uh in Broward. Uh which to my knowledge that has not happened uh in a in a long time, if ever. Um, but the board does have discretion to pass whatever filing fee really. It wants up to a maximum of $50.
>> What passed in Broward? >> A Z filing fee. >> Yeah, most >> I saw a grid with about two dozen, three dozen VABs that have adopted filing fees since the new legislation. Most of them did go with 50. I would say maybe a quarter of them were somewhere in
between 15 and 50. Broward was the outlier at zero. Um and a lot of them have sort of announced, you know, this year we'll go with something like 25 30 35 with the intention of increasing it to the maximum next year. That can't be actually enacted now. That would have to
be taken up next year. But they announced sort of their anticipated increase. >> Question. Uh, Commissioner Jackson, >> my question is, um, the $15 that we take now, as a guesstimate, how much of our, um,
cost does that cover? >> I don't know. Um, I can tell you, uh, I did see numbers from Valuchia County, which has a similar similar number of petitions, very similar county in a lot of ways for the VAB. >> For Valuchia, it was 10 or 20%. >> That's all
>> what the $15 fee would cover. >> Okay. But I don't I I asked we don't have those numbers handy today. >> If I if I may, I I was talking to um our attorney ahead of time and I asked him I said, "Can we get a breakdown of our budget so that we can actually make a decision based on is there a need to
increase it or not?" Um and he said that he would go work to to get that to us. Also said at what point do we need to make this decision? Um and he said I think he said January 1st. Can I have another meeting? >> That that was with a different rule. So,
if the board isn't comfortable changing anything today, um what I would recommend is leaving the at least leaving the $15 sort of standard filing fee in place and then if the board wishes to change that based on the information on the budget, uh another
meeting can be set at any point. I just personally so everybody understands um not that a business owner or a homeowner or anybody like that has a doesn't have $15 or $50 to actually pay. I just wanted to make sure on my end
that it was justified before I made a decision to raise it because we all in government people just start raising fees and then the next thing you know, you know what I mean? And um our attorney had mentioned that the school board pays two fifths of the budget and the county pays three5ths. So, seemed
like there's a little bit that we could do to look at the budget and then make that decision. That's that's just me. That doesn't mean that that's not something you guys can move on. But that's just where my head was was to evaluate it before we made that decision. That's all. >> I was say my thought is that if it if
the $15 covers only a teeny tiny portion of of our expenses, it would be interesting to see the budget. So we can we might want to do something different. >> Anytime we cost shift from the government paying for things to the people paying for things and the percentage goes up whether that's
healthcare or whatever there's usually some people that come back and say hey why'd you raise it and I just need to be able to say this is the reason or we didn't raise it because of this reason. That's all. And I didn't have those documents in front of me. That's why I what I mentioned. >> Yes. So, >> um
I believe uh of these petitions, there's a a percentage a significant percentage of no-shows. So, the staff goes off and does quite a bit of work, right?
No one's getting rich in this organization, but it's a significant outlay in capital for the county to do the work. and then there's a no-show and that money goes away. I believe that raising the
the petition fee to 50 might make those petitioners more serious about it >> and and would cut down on your no-shows if that's the right way. >> It's a good point. It is.
>> What um I'd be interested to break down how it's spent. I assume it it goes toward our staff, legal fees. You >> usually the >> Does any of it go to the property appraiser? >> No. No, not at all. They don't
contribute and they don't receive anything. The biggest cost is almost always the special magistrates because there's quite a few and they handle all the hearings. >> Is that $100 per petition or >> it's it's it's hourly. >> Oh, it's hourly. >> And what did we get? That's right.
>> I I don't a thousand petitions roughly a year. Yeah. >> 2400 or so last year. >> Okay. >> 135 an hour. >> About $45,000. Yeah. So 45,000 is what we get with the fee. >> There are there are some exceptions. So it's probably a little lower than that,
but yeah, for rough math. >> Okay. So petitions are going to be when do they start file? When's the date the deadline or when did when can you file a petition? What what is the date? >> Uh what what is the date? Is it uh September?
starting petition sometimes before and then they can file all the way up until the date that's on and then after that that's when the
deadline is then it goes into petition >> so we got a little time uh yes >> if we wanted to >> the board would have to come back before >> take a look at the budget. >> Uh we'll take a look at the budget. We'll make a decision. Um
>> but we'll have to have a special meeting to do so. >> We'd have to have a meeting special meeting to do so. >> Could the board and a enact a $15 filing fee just in the interim, which it's been for 40 years or so. That way we've at least got a
resolution for >> Yes. >> what we're receiving now. >> I I would recommend doing that. But we are required to set a filing fee and if we don't it's a little ambiguous. Do we continue it from last year? Is there even a filing fee at all? So to avoid that ambiguity, I would recommend
setting something today. >> Sounds good to me. >> Yeah. >> And and I I think I I don't know. Um I don't have an opinion of it, but I guess there's a couple way of looking at it.
uh keep not raising fees. But on the other hand, uh that might be $30,000 that might go to a teachers aid in the school board, you know. >> Well, county budget's pretty tight at the moment. >> County budget's pretty tight. >> To his uh his point also, making sure
that people actually apply. >> That's that's a very good point. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. You've been been here. So, um >> it's a good point. >> All right. We're good. Can I make a motion then to uh keep the filing fees as they are for now until we discuss it
at the next meeting? >> Is this a good motion? >> Okay. >> Yes. >> By Commissioner Atinson. >> Second by Susan. >> Second by Susan. >> Good. Uh any discussion on that motion. All right. All those in favor signify by
saying yay. >> Opposed. Nay. >> No nays. Passes unanimous. Great. Thank you. Okay. The next item is item four, E4. Discuss and adopt resolution number 25-02
reference establishing local guidance for electronic appearances at hearings. >> And this kind of relates back to some of one of the other legislative changes that occurred. Um, it won't have a big impact on our VAB. Basically, in prior
years, VAPs were not required to allow uh electronic hearing attendance, remote attendance. I know we've had that for several years. I don't know how long it's been, but many years. Uh so, we don't really have to make any big changes, but we uh I did uh draft up
some local guidelines to make sure that we're compliant with the new law, which basically just says if a petitioner requests electronic appearance, we have to provide it. That's more or less the the requirement. We have to pro provide uh uh electronic uh rather procedures
for electronic receipt of evidence which are incorporated in those local uh rules. Um again on a sort of ground level, it's not going to change much about how the VAB does business because we've been doing electronic hearings uh
during the pandemic. All of them I believe were electronic and we've been receiving electronic evidence for a long time. So I don't think logistically it's going to create any new issues. Um but my recommendation is to adopt the local procedures um establishing those
electronic hearing procedures. >> Okay. Interesting. So um any questions on that? >> Just me. >> Um so by How do I say this? By establishing
the ability to have electronic hearings. Um, I believe the intent is to say we'll take care of the county side of the interface. The petitioner has to be able to, in other words, the county is not
going to give the petitioner a computer to go do that kind of stuff. >> Correct. the the VAB is required to have the u the equipment needed. Make sure that it's clear enough that it's accessible by the parties and the public at least in some way. Uh it could be an
inperson uh attendance by the public. It doesn't necessarily have to be electronic, but they have to be able to attend in some way. >> Does it does it state um the operating system? In other words, if the if the petitioner has an Apple iOS
operating system and the county has >> Windows, >> it doesn't get that granular. Um I believe we do is it just telephonic? >> You can probably do both. >> We just offer telephonic which is compliant. >> Okay. >> We can offer video. >> Talking about Teams or
>> No, it's just a phone call. >> Zoom it support for the petitioner. >> Oh, it's just a phone. >> And that's what Yeah. And that's what a lot of VAS do. Not the video. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So if it's you got no graphic interface then right
>> it's just a verbal. Okay. Okay. Any other questions? Do I guess you need an action to accept those procedures? >> Yes. A motion to >> a motion would be in order to to either accept, deny or amend the procedures
that are presented before us. >> I make a motion to accept the procedures. Okay. A motion to accept procedures as presented for us by Commissioner Atkinson. >> Second. >> Second by Matt Susan, school board member. Any discussion? Any debate? All
those in favor favor signify by saying yay. Yay. >> Opposed. Nay. Passes unanimously. Okay. Okay. Item uh E5, discussion regarding adoption of Robert's rules of order,
newly revised for the VAB meeting, VAB council memorandum and Robert's rules. And um any discussion? >> No, as you guys remember, it was good to adopt as a formal process. And >> yeah, >> just just for clarification on a small
board Robert's rules of order, the a tie the chair gets the gets the do you need that because that's not always clear. If you read regular Robert's rules of order, the small boards is usually a section of the Robert's rules. Sometimes whether we're a small board or not is
considered different ways. I would like to adopt it that if there is a tie that the tie goes to the chair. It clears stuff up because then you have a winning side rather than it didn't get a majority and it loses. You know what I mean? But that's up to everybody else. It's usually what small boards do.
Anything under seven, they do this just in case there's one member missing and we need to have it. Um, but that's what I would suggest. We've had a couple times where there's four of us and only one time was I questioning where it would go. So, as part of this, I would like to have that as part of it. Um, but I really appreciate you bringing it forward because I think this gives us
the framework if in after we pass this if there's a way you can get the Robert's rules to our board members that may want it. You know what I mean? As a guide for them. >> If anyone if anyone wants a copy, just let me know and I'll >> Yeah. Okay. >> That's my two cents. If it makes any sense. >> Okay.
>> I'll move to approve it with those um >> conditions. >> Yeah. So I move to approve with the idea move to approve the line item um with the idea of adding the the tie to the chair as part of it. >> Is there a second? >> A second.
>> Second by commission action. Any discussion? All those in favor signify by saying yay. >> Yay. Oppose. Nay. >> Passes. Now, there'll be a test at our next meeting >> for the elected members, not for the
volunteers. >> So, maybe uh maybe Matt Susan will be our parliamentarian since uh since he's the one that wanted >> There we go. >> Yeah. The rules chair. Okay. Now, um
Okay. Our tenative schedule for the upcoming VAB. We talked a little bit about that. Hearings will start October 20th. We'll start with exemptions within the first two weeks, then move on to real property value, etc. the first week in November.
>> That's an easy schedule. >> October, November. Now, our fee if we change the 15 >> would have to be in before October. >> Before that, >> yes. Yes. And and what is the date when people will be filing those petitions? I mean, we have >> they're already >> they're filing as we speak
>> and they're paying $15. >> Yes. >> Mhm. >> So, any change that if we wanted to do would not be in effect for the filings for the hearings that are coming up >> for the petitions already filed. They'd essentially be grandfathered in.
>> And we would have to probably make it to where it's after this year would be >> it would have to be after this year then. >> Be a lot cleaner. Okay. See a hand. Go ahead. >> The clerk would ask that if if the board were to increase the fee that it be applicable just to the 2026 cycle. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. Gotcha. That answers a lot of my questions. >> And I believe that would eliminate any specific start date or whatnot, >> right? >> Petitions. >> Yeah. >> Okay. That's good input. >> So, we're talking about next year. We'll be meeting hearing give plenty of time to have discussion since we'll be
meeting. >> Okay. All right. So, um item E7, uh approval of VAB good good cause decisions determined by VAB council. >> These are petitions that are filed late.
Uh so the process there in the past has been they go before myself and I decide whether there's been uh the extraordinary circumstances required to allow a late petition to uh be accepted.
Are those um set forth in statute? >> Yes. >> There. Okay. >> So, I guess um the action we would need to take is whether to uh delegate that to you or have that come to us as a full body.
>> The options are to have counsel, the clerk, or an attorney, special magistrate handle the good cause. I gota >> I've handled it since I've been council, but it's at the board's pleasure. >> Okay. So what would be the pleasure of the board
>> when you review them? Do you charge it by hour or is that part of your fee? >> It is by hour. >> And then if the clerk does it, they do it by >> Right. >> They It's just part of part of the position. >> Interesting. Okay. I have no problem
going forward with the way it was. >> I make a motion to keep doing what we've been doing. >> Okay. The motion is to continue the process by which we determine good cause decisions uh and have them for filing late fees have them uh determined by the
VAB council. >> Second. >> Second by Susan. All right. Any discussion? Any debate? All in favor signify by saying yay. Yay. >> Yay. >> Opposed. Nay. Um no opposition passes.
Okay. E8 approval. VAB good cause reschedules determined by the VAB clerk and her designate. >> And this is where a petitioner wants to reschedule a hearing. They get one good
cause u reschedu uh sort of as of right they still have to show good cause but uh in the past the clerk has handled that which I think is is the best idea. They handle most of the all of the scheduling so it just makes sense. >> Okay. All right.
>> Move to approve. >> There's a motion to approve. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Second. Uh, any discussion? All in favor of favor signify by saying yay. >> Opposed? Nay. >> Passes unanimous. Thank you. >> Can I ask real quick after that? Before
we get to the next one, who holds the agenda for the VAB prior to the chair getting it? Is there because normally you know how you somebody is the holder of the agenda and then it gets published and then the chair has it for the last couple of days or something like that
usually seven days to change is that in effect here or how do we do all of that >> there there's no procedure like equivalent to what you're talking about really the the clerk prepares an initial draft okay >> I I review >> the clerk houses the agenda so if anybody wants to add to that agenda they
would go through the clerk say I would like to be on the agenda And then that comes before us. Go ahead. >> Yeah. If any board >> will contact either the VA attorney or the chair of the VA and ask their
approval to put something else on the agenda. >> Is that specific um the whole time or is that time specific? Meaning, do you call them anytime anybody tries to or is it the
last seven days or the last 14 days? Somebody comes to you two months ahead of time and says, "I'd like to be on the agenda." Um, you make that determination and then call one of the attorneys or the chair, then >> call. >> So, you're running that portion of the
additions >> essentially. >> Okay. >> Final word, I would say. >> Yeah. Okay. And then if you think it might be something the chair needs to hear about, he'll do it. Is there an opportunity for the chair to look at the agenda and say, "I don't want these on here or take them off." >> That could be done,
>> right? Okay. I just want to make sure that's all. Okay. Thank you. Sorry. I was just curious because Yeah, I was looking at Thank you. >> I think we'll make an effort to get the board the agenda >> as soon as possible. They have that
option. I have never had an age change, nor do I have any issue with anything here. It was just a cur process question, that's all. >> Okay. Um, did we vote on eight? Do we need an action on eight? >> Given the uh
>> I think the board did vote on Did the board vote on that? >> Yeah, I think we're on nine. >> We're on nine. Okay. We have fortunate to have Dana Blakeley here with Bar County Property Appraiser. Wanted to appear before the board. And as far as I'm concerned, you have an open invitation. Anytime you want to speak to
us, you're you know, >> I I appreciate that, chair. Um I normally only come if I have a purpose. Um I'm always at the organizational meeting and of course always at the final meeting. Um so I'd like to start by this remembering everyone deployed on
wearing red on Friday to recognize Major Brooke Bilman. She is so selflessly serving us overseas voluntarily um while we enjoy all the freedoms that we get to enjoy. So I just want to publicly recognize her and uh tell her that I love her. I'm thinking about her.
So the reason I wanted to address the board today is I have some uh major concerns about some of the things that happened last year with the board and and I have some questions, but I want to be very clear and I I left a packet of information for each of you. one for the
board attorney and one for the clerk um to have for the record. And I'm not going to read all of this information to you because most of it is information you either already have or it is simply excerpts from uh the rules and regulations or statutes that oversee
this process. And also let me say uh we are always very appreciative particularly to our citizen members that um voluntarily serve on this board. is a highly regulated process. Um it's difficult at times to understand and so
um you know it's okay that we have a difference of opinion. That's what this process is about. Um but it's not okay if we feel that the process um is not fair for all petitioners. So for
folks that haven't served for a long time like Commissioner Atkinson and Commissioner Alman kind of understands the tactical process, but just so you understand, property owners can communicate with the property appraiser 365 days a year about their assessments.
And as a matter of fact, um, when the trim notices are mailed, the notice of proposed property taxes, which are going to be mailed on Monday, there's actually a formal 25 days in which the property owner can request an informal process, uh, informal meeting with the property appraiser to have this exchange of
information. Understand, there's no incentive for the property appraiser to appraise a property higher or lower than she feels that the market supports. Budget isn't dependent upon that. There's no scorecard. uh that type of information. What typically happens
during this period of time is an exchange of information. So there are thousands of petitions filed every year. Many of those are resolved through an exchange of information, informal counsel, maybe a a formal council meeting. Um or uh we we are receiving
information that we need many times to go ahead and approve an exemption that we previously didn't have enough information to do. So it it's not a a very adversarial process at that point in time. It only becomes adversarial if
we are not able to have that informal conference or we cannot come to an agreement meaning the property appraiser and the property owner. So then they can of course exercise their administrative right of appeal and come before um the value adjustment board meaning
magistrates in a county this size and then eventually have a record a recommendation and a record of decision based on their appeal. So that that's the process in a nutshell. The first thing that you have is a copy of 129.005. I'm not going to read uh everything to
you, but I want you to know that the the property appraisers office has to be very very careful and the rules specify that personnel performing any of the board's duties have to be independent from the property appraiser and the tax collector. So, Chairman Alman, you are
correct in that we cannot have any exparte communications. I can't contact the clerk and say, you know, the process would be better if you did X, Y, and Z. But what I can do is opine on the process or let you know if I feel that
the process has some legal pitfalls. And I do feel that we ran into that last year. Uh the next thing that you have um is a copy of 194.035. And the reason I'm doing this is because none of you are required to have any
training to sit on this board. Um I disagree with that, but the legislature disagrees with me. the magistrates are required to have training, but in a county this size, the board members are not required to have any training. So, you guys are are kind of coming into this, I'm not going to say blind because
you do have counsel, you do have a clerk that helps guide you through that process, but in terms of understanding and knowing what the board can and can't do from the ons before it becomes a question to your attorney is kind of difficult. So, one of the big differences that we talked about last
year um chairman is the fact that now as we sit here today versus years ago um we are required to have magistrates and that comes with limitations in terms of what the board can and can't do. And the
law is very specific about the qualifications of these men and women that are serving in in these roles. They are many times state certified general appraisers, state certified residential appraisers and attorneys that have to have a certain amount of experience and I've kind of highlighted that in that
section. Now last year um and we're fortunate I think all the members are the same this year from last year. I believe I I could have that. So everybody served last year. So we had a situation last year where we
had a case that went before a magistrate and the evidence uh was submitted of course by the property appraiser and the petitioner and the uh request for uh a reduction was denied. So, the petitioner and the petitioners
council showed up at a final meeting and after 56 minutes of testimony and submitting evidence, um, you guys decided to collectively send it back to the magistrate for
another look. And that's not really prescribed by law unless you find that there are legal insufficiencies with the findings of facts or conclusions of law. And specifically that is really the authority of of
course the board but the VAB attorney is the one that makes sure that that all of the recommendations have a finding of fact and conclusion of law that's that is in accordance with law. And there's three particular statutes that are referenced there. So basically when those recommendations
come to the board for a final uh review of you for for you to uh sign off on those that should be legally vetted at that point. However, the board had the discretion. So says the VAB attorney and you guys
sent that back. Well, the magistrate came back with not only the same decision, but he enumerated in two additional pages why he was not going to make any change in value. Subsequently, you sent it back again with a directive
and a number and a value. And so what the magistrate did was enumerated the same information, found the same conclusions, but changed the last paragraph. Now, this process became an issue where the property
appraiser lost her constitutional rights to be able to crossexamine any of the witnesses that was giving testimony. We concluded we as you as the board concluded that there was not a rehearing and we have that in the transcript from
your attorney that there was not a hearing. There really wasn't anything you could do at that point because any and all testimony and evidence had to have happened at the original hearing. But that's not the outcome. So as a result, I had to file a lawsuit to
ensure that the constitutional rights of all other petitioners that didn't have the opportunity had to have a request for reconsideration and even to the point where the board directed the the information go back to
the magistrate with a number. Now in 1940 334 there are rules of procedure on evidence um for all parties. Um obviously there are problems there when when you have that the rules of evidence are not followed.
Now I'd like to bring your attention to uh 194.301 301. And this is what happens when there's a challenge to an assessment and the presumption is retained or the presumption is overcome.
If the presumption of correctness is retained, that means that the property appraisers value by process is upheld. If the presumption of correctness is not retained, then it is the the responsibility of the petitioner by
preponderance of the evidence to prove that the value should be changed. And if the if if there's evidence there, if there is a lack of evidence, if you look at B that's highlighted, if the record lacks such evidence, the matter must be
remanded back to the property appraiser with appropriate directions from the value adjustment board or the court. and the property appraiser has to comply with those directions. It does not say it is remanded back to the magistrate. It says if the lack of evidence is there, it's remanded back to the
property appraiser. That did not happen last year in this case. After that took place, you guys uh adopted a formal procedure for request for reconsideration. Now, I would say that there's two places
in the statutes that talk about a request for reconsideration. Those two places are in the do series 12d9.032 032 under under final decisions. It says that no
reconsideration of a recommended decision shall take place until all parties have been furnished all communications and have been afforded adequate opportunity to respond. Of course, there would have been no way to know that the petitioner was going to show up and give 56 minutes of testimony
from his attorney um and that the board attorney said that was not going to be a rehearing. there was no chance for me to have any cross uh witness testimony um or to cross-examine the information that was being given by the petitioner.
The other place in the law that talks about a reconsideration is in the role of the legal counsel to the board. That's in 12D9.009 009 that says board legal council shall review and respond to written complaints
alleging non-compliance with the law by the board special magistrates board clerk or the parties legal counsel shall send a copy of the complaint along with the response to the department the department meaning the the Florida department of revenue this section does
not refer to routine requests for reconsideration requests for rescheduling in pleadings and argument in petitions Now, I agree with the VAB attorney when he says in his memorandum that we've always had many, many requests for
reconsideration. You've just never had a formal procedure for that. And I would agree. Many times petitioners are not happy with the recommendation of the magistrate, particularly when it doesn't vote in their favor or the value conclusion is not what the petitioner is
requesting. However, the only recourse at that point is not a request for reconsideration because they're not happy. It is circuit court. All of the forms that the value adjustment board uses, this board and and boards all
around the state do not have another step in the process. Request for reconsideration can be done and the law specifies it can be done if in fact the findings of facts or conclusions of law are not found to be within state
statute. Not just I'm not happy with the value. So, the new information that you do have there is a legal opinion from from my attorney from from Lauren Levy. And there are some things in there that uh
specify yes that the board by law can have additional operating procedures, but but the law kind of talks about that. It also says that you cannot adopt new rules. You can't expand on them, but you can adopt new operating procedures.
I'm not going to read you um the opinion. You have it there. But I do want to bring your attention to page three. Um the value adjustments board review of special magistrates recommended decisions are governed by the Florida administrative code. Talks
about what the value adjustment board attorney must do and what the board must consider um when looking at the recommended decisions. But I want to bring your attention to the highlighted section of three in the middle of the page. If the board determines that a recommended decision meets the
requirements of subsection one above, the board shall adopt the recommended decision. When a recommended decision adopted by the board is adopted, it becomes final. So that means that if you do not find that the findings of facts or conclusions of law within a
recommendation do if you find that they meet the the test of the statute, you must adopt that recommendation. That that's what that says bar legal insufficiency because you are required to hire magistrates with a certain
amount of expertise, certifications, credential, bar license, those types of things to ensure that the recommendations that you are getting are sound legally. And if they are found not to be, it is the property appraisers's opinion and the opinion of the law and
the court that the value adjustment board attorney performs that function for you and can and you as a board can send those back to a magistrate if you find that that is the case. The other thing that I want to bring to your attention is no matter what this
board decides to do, I can tell you that I am always going to to be an advocate for the property owner. I'm a property rights girl. That's where I fall. So if in fact you're going to proceed and you are comfortable with your new procedure,
then there is no way for a petitioner to know that they have that option. It is not on your website. It is not in Axia where people file petitions. It's not on the clerk's website. You haven't
published anything. It's not on the do forms. It's not on the recommended decisions that you are going to be sending the petitioners once those recommendations come. And based on your procedure, there's a time limit of how many days someone has in writing to
request the reconsideration. So, how in the world is any petitioner to know if it's not advertised, it's not in their instructions, it's not on the website, it's not in anything that's publicized, it's not in a publication by the do, it's not in any of the forms, how in the
world is all petitioners, everyone supposed to know they have that option if they disagree. Okay. So for for the property appraiser, this is a a question of um accuracy,
equity, and uniformity because because that's the world that we live in when we are establishing value conclusions for all properties. So I just wanted to bring that to your attention. Um and I thank you for your time. >> Thank you, Miss Bickley. Um, general
counsel, I think that being the fact that we're in a possible lawsuit, um, I think we shouldn't comment up here, um, to give us exposure to anything. I don't know how you feel about that, but I wanted to say thank you for coming out and eloquently laying out your opinions on those items. Now, the lawsuit is not
with the property owner because unfortunately, unless you were to do something over and over, consistent violations, I don't have that availability. Even if it is the board that violates my
constitutional rights, because it's only one petitioner, I have to file. >> You're gonna come up. >> I have to file against the property owner. Mhm. >> I I I would So that's >> I'm not by any means saying you
shouldn't discuss something or you should discuss something. I'm just letting you know that and that's in there as well. >> Yeah. >> Um >> I just I just know that was my theory and I appreciate you coming with everything. >> Um but that's how I felt. That's all I was going to mention. What whatever your feelings are on that. think I appreciate
Miss Blickley coming forward and saying these things and I think for us I don't think we should mention anything. That's all discussion. >> My two senses that's probably prudent not to discuss. >> I had a couple >> items that may be subject to litigation but
>> I just wanted to one um I um I appreciate you being here what you said. I like the idea of the training. I I think this board's seeking that. I would I would be willing to um it would be very beneficial for us to have
some training, some briefing. I don't know who would do that, but maybe that's something we would have to some discussion. But um I don't know if the Department of Revenue provides that service. >> There's board training offered by the do
each year, so that's voluntary for this board. I'm happy to brief any or all of the board members at any time before a meeting or otherwise. >> I was going to say before the last one, you came to my office and briefed me so I felt >> Yeah. which I appreciate. >> I don't have time for
>> And the do training is that something you do online and at certain times of the year. >> It's available all year long. >> I don't remember if the new ones come out yet. They do a new one each year. It does take a while. It's pretty intensive. So, >> I'm going to do that. I think it's a
great idea. It's a great recommendation, >> Mr. Chairman. Also, like I'm in the process right now of putting together the onboarding packet for new school board members. I'm updating it right now. >> Might be, if it's okay with you, if I work with him to develop a packet for
new members as they come on for a local educational piece and bring that before the board. >> Thank you for volunteering for that. I thought you were going to volunteer with me, but no, that'd be even better. >> And then and then um because the do is good, but it's not local specific, >> right? So, if it's okay, I'd like to develop that, maybe bring it back to the
next meeting for you guys to review, see what you think, and then go from there. >> And I will I will do that. I I find the D to be very helpful and very informative. I'm curious what it's >> and chairman, I just want to say for the record, I'm not recommending that the board have training. Uh that that would
that would violate what I'm saying is that the law doesn't require formal training for >> But you did say you wish it did. >> I I did say I wish it did and I and I stand stand on that. Yeah. Um and then uh so definitely I I think it's a great
idea and I'd love to do that. >> Um it sounds like there were a lot of statutory changes so they probably haven't updated the training yet to include the new >> I don't I I don't think I've gotten an email that it's out yet, but >> Right. Okay. >> I don't take it. So I I don't
necessarily I'm not 100%. >> That'd be good. You did say one thing though. I I um that I differ a little bit. I differ a lot. I just disagree. When you said that this particular landowner in this petition request was
given some sort of favorable treatment that it wasn't available to everyone. Absolutely. That's not true. What we did for that land owner was available to virtually every petitioner to hear their to hear their appeal. We didn't have we
don't have any set restrictions on the time. We didn't give them any any special treatment at all. >> With all due respect, sir, I I disagree. And special treatment isn't the right verbiage. I I I wouldn't characterize it as special treatment. You had no way of
knowing, nor did the property appraiser have any way of knowing that that that property owner was going to show up at the final meeting. I I you know, I don't even know how long the the clerk's office knew. I don't know if he called the day before, got added to the agenda. Not my concern if he did it last minute
or if he did it two months before. Um, but you know, we had no way of knowing that. And it shouldn't be a problem because at that point in the process, as specified by your attorney on the record, there wasn't anything that you could do at that point by way of
listening to additional testimony or taking in any evidence um or providing another hearing where even the property appraiser could cross-examine uh the witness at that point. It that that time has come and gone at that point in the process. What I am saying
to you is that what happened was a can only be characterized as a request for reconsideration. Right? There was reconsideration given. It was sent back to the magistrate not once but twice um until the board gave a directive on what
they wanted and the magistrate was very specific in the you know had three recommendations and the third one said based on the value of adjustment board's directive here's what they want here's the value >> without getting I agree with rep uh with
Matt Susan we don't need to rehash that that's going to be litigated >> but the process itself no other no other petitioner would have had any way of knowing at all that a request for reconsideration was available and
subsequently even as we stand here today. Okay, even though you now have a formal procedure, >> that petitioner had no way of knowing. They didn't know either. I mean, we entered this hearing, we could have had this, we could have had a a line. We
could had the room full and a line going around the fountain out there. We didn't have any way of knowing how many people were going to show up or >> we're opening and that's correct, sir, because anybody can show up under public
comments. Yes. But are you saying that maybe we should have procedures that if you want to appear before the VAB and present your case that they give notice or can anybody just >> No, sir. I wouldn't even answer that
question because that would violate the law if I did. You would have to ask your attorney that I >> understand what I think. >> But my point is we gave no one any special any had no idea what this person was going to say or if they were going to come out. We were open to everyone.
There was no special treatment given to anyone >> that that was not the assertion. That's not the assertion I'm making now. And it's not the assertion in the formal complaint either, sir. It was a due process constitutionality issue. >> All right. Um I don't know if we've gotten a copy of that. We should take a
look at that, too. And >> the uh the procedure. >> Yeah. No, the actual lawsuit. >> I'm sure I can find it. Yeah, we should get briefed on that so we know what know what's happening, what the arguments are and what the allegations are and what what and u that'd be helpful to us.
That'd be a learning process in and of itself. >> I can send that over. >> That would be good. >> Um question. >> Yes. >> Um sorry, Miss Blick.
>> Dana, just Dana's fine. Dana, >> you did mention that this property owner got how was it a pro something outside the process happened,
right? And it and it didn't say even in our website that that was an option open to the taxpayer or the petitioner. Is that right? So my question is or my request is maybe that
no process is perfect. You can always sharpen the pencil a little more, >> right? >> Perhaps a review of the website because usually the website is very good. I mean, I've seen a lot worse. And perhaps if there's something in there in the
process, little fine-tuning, a tweak, maybe working with the property appraisers office, the staff can get together on the right words. No, can't do that. >> Can't do that. >> No, not on that. >> No, sir. >> We don't want to violate the law. I get it. >> But >> there's a lot that we talked about while
we were there in regards to this topic. We said that we could email out all of the members that this is an available option for them and stuff like that. I think this brings up some of those comments that we had during that time. I think I think those are some of those things that we can bring back to make some changes to our process. I agree
with you 100%. I would love to have more. >> Yeah, just review it. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. It was interesting. We had so few appeals. That's maybe that's a good thing. But uh I um
I assume as you said most of these are resolved when they meet with you at the beginning of the process. >> Yeah. Most of them chairman um unfortunately this has become a business. Okay. all around the state. It is really really changed from if you go
back to when you and I first started in this process, it was basically property owners and business owners um and those seeking classifications and exemptions that were making appeals. Now it's kind of become not kind of has become a business. So you do have tax reps that
will shotgun, you know, 1,200 residential cases and kind of see what happens. And you know, for the property appraiser, I have to defend those cases as if they're going to show up. So it it is a costly endeavor, not this board's problem. That's something the property
appraiser has to do. I can't treat a case as though I feel they may not show up or withdraw. I have to prepare my testimony, my comps, my evidence, supply it to the the the tax rep on behalf of
the property owner as if it is, you know, a a a individual property owner filing on their property. Um, but what I would say to you is yes, thousands of appeals are made um with or without those uh additional uh tax reps that are
filing on these cases. And many times that is an exchange of information. Sometimes it's information that we would know, okay, that the market wouldn't tell us. Maybe it's some functional obsolescence on the property. Maybe they had some water damage and now they've got a mold problem and they've got some
information that they they supply us with. U maybe there's uh something that's not memorialized in the public records that prohibits development or or something. So yes, you know, again, the property appraiser is looking for a reasonable range of value for every
property. She's not looking for a value here or a value here. Um she's looking for a value that we can defend um and that is equitable, accurate, and uniform. I think it goes it's interesting what
percentage of the appeals are tax reps versus individual >> prop homeowners property owners business owners >> by by volume now I'm looking over at these ladies maybe George has >> 97% by tax reps >> really
>> that's incredible >> and I would add that most of the larger ones tend to be tax reps as well and they take a lot of resources. >> H interesting. Well, that's good information. That's >> We're sponges up here. We want as much
information we can get. >> You're seeing an increase and you said 90% >> 97 >> about 97% only about 3% of the cases, >> right, that are representing the petitioners. I guess >> I'm sorry. >> There are organizations that do this for
a living and represent the petitioners, right? >> Yes. So, getting back to the original, do we want to raise the VAB? >> Yes. >> Um, petitioning fee, filing fee from 15 to 50, >> right? >> I don't know if we get to share funds,
but >> we'll do our part. >> No, sir. I'm not part of that equation. That that's between the county commission and the school board to split those costs incurred um for the hearings. the property appraiser doesn't have a line item in her budget where she
can uh ask >> costs. Correct. Correct. I I just have to uh include that in the the part where I defend the values that >> cost doing business. >> Cost of doing business. Yes, sir. >> Gotcha.
>> Now, ironically though, I think I don't know, but the hearing that we had here was a property owner. It wasn't one of these businesses that have >> and his lawyer. and his lawyer. Everybody's entitled to get legal counsel and probably recommended a lot of times. Um
this has been very very helpful. Um that that I thought about your re as we look move forward. Okay. 97%. That is that is a huge that's shocking. >> And they dramatically increased in last
LA beginning last year throughout the state. At least that's been my observation. >> Wonder why. Why do you think it's increased? Do you have any ideas? >> It's a business, sir. >> It's a way of making money. >> It's a way to make money. Yes, sir. It's a business. How many of those are like
now of course if you appeal and and back to the point of the fee if you appeal and you get relief you don't have to pay the fee you get it gets reimbured doesn't it? >> No sir >> no it doesn't it used to be that way many decades ago maybe but u um
>> I used to not color my hair >> chairman. Okay. >> Yes. >> Yeah. The filing fee, I believe, has always been the cost of of appealing, no matter what the noatter what the fee was. Yes, sir.
>> Okay. I thank you. Thank you so much for being here. And >> thank you for your time. >> We welcome your your presence and input uh any uh anytime. And I'm going to make a note to wear red. That's a striking striking red. >> Red on Fridays.
>> Red on Fridays. Okay, that's good. Okay. So, we got an action somewhere in here. >> Pardon me. >> After after this presentation, we got an action somewhere, >> right? >> Public board reports. >> Yeah. When you say an action, some
>> No, I mean maybe training set up for the board. >> No, but it's not in reaction to this Blakeley. It's just something that we said we would like to do. >> Yeah, I think that's great input. >> I think I will forward to the board the training, the link to the training.
Good. Um, let me get back to the agenda here. Do we have any member of the public who wishes to be heard? >> We do not. Okay. Um, board reports. Number one, value
adjustment board attorney. Do you have any additional? >> Thank you. Yes, I've got one that's required and one that's just uhformational. The rule does require us to discuss Florida's property tax system. Miss Blickley actually covered almost all of what I usually say to do
that. Um, so I won't uh recite what she already did, but the process generally begins with the trim notice at which point they can have that informal meeting, file a VAB petition or go straight to court. You can file a lawsuit. You don't have to go to the VAB if you're a taxpayer. After going through the VAB process, which we've
covered in in various points of today's meeting, again, petitioners or the property appraiser may file suit in the circuit court to appeal the VAB's pos uh uh final decision. And that final decision gets no special weight in the circuit court. It's reviewed denovo,
meaning newly. Uh so everybody gets a a fresh look. Um and that's really the the the very short version of the of the process as it relates to the VAB. Uh the specific uh report I have is there is uh
which is very unusual. There is a pending lawsuit involving the VAB. It was filed by one of the petitioners from last year. I have uh responded to that. I filed a motion to dismiss. I can tell the board this comes up from time to time. I think it's the second or third
one we've had since I've been council. Uh the long and short is this petitioner um filed it in error. uh she filed su suit only against the VAB disagreeing with the outcome of her petition. The proper party to that is the property
appraiser. Just like when you appeal in regular court, you don't sue the judge you disagree with on appeal. You sue the other party that you disagree with. So I've filed a motion to dismiss on that basis. It should be granted. The hearing is set for the 26th of August. So I will
have a report for the board after that hearing. Uh whatever the outcome may be. I did try very hard to communicate with Miss Velasquez, the the plaintiff in that case, and tried to persuade her every way I could that she had filed the
lawsuit erroneously. So, we did not have to do anything in the litigation. She did not agree. Um, so I was forced to file our motion. It really should be granted. The law is extremely clear. Um, >> did she use an attorney? >> Nope. It's pro. >> Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> uh, that is what it is, but, uh, unless there is is a a really significant mistake, the case should be resolved very soon. >> Okay. >> What's she asking for in the suit? >> It it's not that clear and it's really not even that relevant to us, but essentially a reduction in value.
>> Okay. >> Is she able to if this is thrown out, will she be able to refile it properly or is a dead issue? >> Probably the court will give her leave to amend, but not to include the the value adjustment board. That would be my best guess.
>> Okay. It's very interesting. >> And that's all I have. Thank you. >> Okay. Um I have no report other than you're going to send us all those dates. You'll email us. The clerk will the dates. If you all
could follow up and email us all the the dates so my staff can get them on the calendar and >> the sooner the better. >> Yes. >> And we can call and request that. >> Okay. Commissioner Atkinson.
>> No. >> Schoolboard member Susan? >> No. >> Robert Springer. >> I have nothing, sir. >> Robert Adams? >> Uh, nothing, sir. >> Okay. Well, I think that concludes our meeting and uh thank you for for being
here. We have unanimous attendance and thank you especially for those citizen volunteers for your willingness to serve the public. Really looking forward to next series of he hearings and uh
I will uh adjourn the meeting.