Morning board of adjustments to order. And somebody has somehow perlloined our gavvel. So we're improvising. That was my phone you heard banging. But I don't want to break that either. So I may have to use my fist. Either way, we should be able to continue. Excuse me. without too
much of an issue. Um, so I'd like to call the meeting to order. Adequate notice of this meeting was provided with the Open Public Meetings Act. Specifically, on January 28th, proper notice was sent to the
electronic news sources of record filed with the municipal clerk at the Township of Bridgewater and posted on the municipal bulletin board. Please be aware of the zoning board of adjustment policy for public hearings. No new applications will be heard after 9:30
p.m. and no new testim new testimony will be taken after 10 p.m. With that, um, please rise if you're able and let's say the pledge of allegiance. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the
republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you. >> And Nancy, will May we have a roll call, please? >> Chairman Kulak >> here.
>> Mr. Welli >> uh here. >> Mrs. Mr. Zamin >> here. >> Mr. Franco >> here. >> Mr. Fresco >> here. >> Miss Henderson Rose >> here. >> Mr. Gi >> here. >> Miss Wisman >> here.
>> Mr. Vesio, >> Mr. Kuchi >> here. >> Mr. Mcnella >> here. >> Mr. Aller, board attorney >> here. >> The board engineer. We have a consulting engineer appearing for Bill Burr. This
is Jason Klene >> here >> from uh Remington Vernick >> and Katherine Sarmad board planner >> here. >> Jason just formally welcome and we're glad you could join us. Thank you. I know we're short notice but we
appreciate you being here. Um we have um one motion in particular. We'd like to appoint an acoustical engineer that will be joining joining us specifically for our cafe Amelia case that's going to be coming up soon. So I'd like to get this
done and I'd like someone to make a motion to appoint Ostard is it engineering is that how we go by it? >> Yes. >> Second. >> I couldn't see who did it. Second.
>> We have to have regular members first. >> Oh, second. >> Very good. That was Mr. Franco with the second. >> And let's have a roll call vote, please. >> Chairman Kulak. >> Yes. >> Mr. Wedelli. >> Uh, yes. >> Mrs. Zamin.
>> Yes. >> Mr. Franco. >> Yes. >> Mr. Fresco. >> Yes. >> Miss Henderson Rose. >> Yes. >> Mr. Gi. >> Yes. >> Miss Wisman. >> Yes. >> Mr. Kuchi. >> Yes. >> Mr. Mcnella. >> Yes.
>> Very well. Thank you. I'd like to open the meeting to the public who would like to address this board on any matter that's not on the agenda for this evening. Seeing none, we'll close that portion of tonight's meeting. I don't think we have
minutes or any resolutions at this time, Nancy, do we? Okay, just turn the page here. So now I'd like to open the tonight's meeting with the application that we have before us from Rockland APV
Bridgewater Energy LLC regarding block 338, lot 9, 760 East Main Street. And with that, the floor is yours. >> Thank you very much. Good evening. My name is Glenn Pantel. I'm an attorney
with the law firm of Vagy Drinker Bidd and Reef and have the pleasure of representing the applicant Rockland APV Bridgewater Energy LLC before you this evening uh on this application for minor subdivision and site plan approval with
some related bulk variances uh for the installation of a battery energy uh storage system commonly referred to as a BEST. That's an acronym battery energy storage system. So, you'll hear repeatedly through the evening, through the hearings reference to so-called best
uh facility. U we're'll be starting this evening, I should mention at the outset, in a slightly different order than your typical uh application. In order to give uh Mr. decline additional time to review
uh the plans from an engineering perspective. Uh we've agreed to commence this evening and on the operation and maintenance and proposed installation of the facility as opposed to the usual site civil engineering. Uh our site engineer is actually with us tonight but
will not be testifying. That's Craig Styers. Um but u I think I see that you have Mr. client here so he can take in the testimony, but we are not going to be presenting site civil testimony. One of the exhibits that we'll have up is a overall site plan uh just to put the
application in context, if you will, but again, not not going to be hearing uh site civil uh testimony. Uh another thing about this application that distinguishes it I think from uh the usual sort of variance application that
would bring uh a site plan before the zoning board is while we are seeking a D1 use variance that I know the board is very familiar with the parameters of that it is to allow the installation of this battery uh energy storage system
which actually would fall within the definition of your of an essential service under your ordinance which is a permitted use in the zone. Uh it's also a conditional use allowed I think in every zone in the township but in any
event is definitely a permitted use in this zone. So you might then ask why are we here before you? Well, part of the definition, I should say, is that it defines that as an electric uh storage or transmission facility operated by a
government utility or by a public a government authority or a public utility and we are not that. We are a private entity. So, we don't technically meet the definition of an essential service under your ordinance. But I think you'll hear from the testimony that the
operation and maintenance of this facility uh will be the same as what you would have for a facility like this uh installed by either a governmental authority or a public utility. And in
fact, this site, as you'll also hear, is actually owned by the Somerset County Improvement Authority. We have an agreement in place with the Somerset County Improvement Authority to enable us to proceed with this development on their property. It's an option coupled
with a ground lease. So, if the matter is approved, uh we would then in turn be entering into long-term ground lease with the Somerset County Improvement Authority. So again, it comes even that much closer be to your ordinance because the ground here actually is owned by
government authority, namely the Somerset County Improvement Authority. But at this juncture, we will be operating and maintaining the facility. It's we >> I'm just going to ask you to take a pause for a moment. >> Of course, >> take a take a breath. So there is a very important technicality that you
mentioned when you talked about the business that you intend to operate that in fact you're not a public utility correct >> nor are you regulated as one would be and so therefore you're suggesting to us or I'm inferring that we should take
your good faith efforts um to operate the business as if you were a utility. >> Yes. And that technicality is something on which partially your application hangs. As you move forward in in some of the um discussion or testimony that you
offered, the fact is that yes, the land is owned by the county and that does not however negate the fact that um it is not owned by a public utility. So, we're kind of dancing around on some very
important points and I would just caution you not to be too loose and carefree with your definition of those points. >> Right. Uh, no, I don't intend to and in fact we're here before you because we have acknowledged that we do need the D1
use variance. Uh, I think it was fair to point out that it is somewhat of an unusual situation in that what distinguishes this use from a permitted use is the fact that it's not going to be operated and maintained by a public utility or a government authority. But I
hear you loud and clear and I agree 100%. In fact, we are prepared to address how the operation and maintenance of this facility will in fact be what you would have had it been owned or operated by a public utility or government authority. So, your your
point is well taken. Um, I'm certainly not trying to avoid the issue by any means. >> You mentioned though that the the property is owned by the county. Uh, do you have a an agreement to purchase contingent on approval of this project?
Do you have a proposed lease agreement? I'm not certain as to the structure that you have in place. >> Yeah, we have an option agreement in place with the Somerset County Improvement Authority that gives us the ability to proceed with this development. And if the application is
approved, uh we would exercise then our option to enter into a ground lease form of which has already been negotiated with the county as part of our option agreement. >> So, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Right. >> Your landlord then would be the county.
>> Correct. >> And at this moment in time, because it's the Somerset County Improvement Authority, to my knowledge, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think they pay taxes to the to the township of Bridgewater. Do you know whether they do or not?
>> Uh, I believe they do not. >> They do not. And so as a this would not be introducing a ratable into our system for tax revenue. the terms of your lease agreement with the um Somerset County
Improvement Authority. I presume that you're paying Well, I don't know. Why don't you outline the terms of that lease so that the board and members of the public have an opportunity to understand it? Before you do that though, just want to remind everyone that this is uh meeting is being
broadcast live on YouTube. So, you're now a star. Um, and you can play the replay when you get home and critique your own performance. But because of that, we we are somewhat insistent that everyone who speaks uh speak into the microphone. Hopefully, you can hear me
and I can hear you right now. >> Great. >> Um, but at the same time, I just want to make sure everybody's reminded, especially the board members, when we have an opportunity to ask questions, make sure that your mic is on and that you're speaking into it. And if not, we
have an expert person who handles all of our media and transmission who will come out and instruct us to do it properly. So, thank you for that indulgence. >> Okay. No, and thank you for the reminders on the couple of points that you just made. No issue with any of that. >> Great.
>> Okay. Thank you. So, uh, to get down to what's entailed, uh, in the application is that, uh, it entails one a minor subdivision approval to subdivide this property into two lots. Uh, one would be
proposed lot 9.01 4.235 acres, which will continue to be owned by the Somerset County Improvement Authority and will not be the subject of our development. It'll be adjacent to it as you'll see on the plans, but it will not be developed by us. And then the
other is a somewhat smaller parcel 2.892 acres uh on proposed lot 9.02. The lot numbers I believe have already been approved uh by your tax assessor. Uh on lot 9.01 1. Uh well, on the property
right now, there is a trucking parking area uh operated by the either Somerset County andor the improvement authority where they're having trucks go in and out um of this uh of the of the subject property uh used in connection with the
public works facility of the county which is adjacent to the site. It's actually a transportation complex for >> county. I was going to ask you while you're on that topic, the Somerset County transportation office building and let's say support
resources are located on that larger overall property, >> right? >> Um, and they do have a variety of both uh we'll call them clerical staff as well as management and a whole host of employees that come in in and out of that site daily. And the part that
you're describing that you wish to lease essentially is used to store everything from garbage trucks to vehicles that maybe are in states of disrepair or alternatively just someplace to hold them until they can either be put back
in service or I don't know disposed of. I'm not sure. >> Right. >> The adjacent property is more active in that it seems to be a parking area. But I I don't know is that what you believe to be true as well? >> Yeah, the the county transportation
complex also has a a regular paved parking area for office employees. I'm assuming uh in connection with their operation. Um and when we get to the site civil testimony, we'll have we'll address all of that in detail. >> Okay, that's fair.
>> Okay. Uh, but I can tell you that what you now have on our property is a somewhat active truck parking area that will all be taken when I say our property, the proposed 289 acres that we would be we would ground lease if this uh application is approved. So instead
of having that trucking activity on that property, uh the trucking activity will be gone and it will be a fully enclosed and secured bus system. >> Okay. E >> somewhere I think we got between you and
I, we got lost on the terms of your lease agreement with Somerset County. >> Right. Okay. Well, the the le the lease agreement is, as I said, it's an exhibit to it. We have an option agreement with the county pursuant to which uh we have
we have a long-term option to develop get approvals for the property similar to what you have in any number of situations I think where you have con applicants coming before you have a contract to purchase property. >> Right. >> Right. And what you have in that situation is typically with a
contingency in the contract. So if the applicant gets approvals, he proceeds with the deal. If he doesn't get approvals, he can terminate the deal. Same thing with this. It's an option agreement. If we get approvals, we have the option to proceed with the ground lease. Uh if we don't get approvals, obviously we're not going to exercise
the option. Right. >> So that's the basic construct of it. >> And the the ground lease itself though, do you have a term for that lease and years? >> Uh yes. >> Would you share that with us? >> Uh I'd be glad to. I don't have the exact term at my fingertips here, but I
can certainly give you the the term of that. It's long it's a long term. I can tell you that. >> All right. And part of the reason I'm asking is we're here to um evaluate your proposals. >> Sure. >> To understand the nature of the business that would be located here in
Bridgewater. >> Yep. to understand the commitment that this this applicant has toward this facility and the term of the lease obviously for us is some something to be considered but also because we're not um
you know I don't want to put it crudely but benefiting financially from this arrangement that you will have with the county I'd like to know how the county is benefiting financially from that arrangement. >> Sure. Um I think it would be best if I could again I don't have all that
information at my fingertips. You know we'll be coming back for another meeting. >> Yes. >> U if it would be okay u I could respond more fully uh to that. >> Sure. >> At the at a subsequent meeting, right? >> But I can tell you for a facility like this, it's not going to be a short-term ground lease, right?
>> Because we can't afford to make the investment that we're going to be making here uh on a on a short-term basis. We have a long-term ground lease. Can >> I ask you a question? >> Of course. Well, you have a you don't have to go into specifics, but you have um a long-term lease. Is there any option to buy the property at any point?
>> No, we don't have an option to buy it. >> It's just a long-term lease. >> Be a long-term lease, right? >> We're also looking down the road at potential liabilities. You are adjacent to or extremely close to one of the largest super fund sites in the country,
American Cyanit. they are your neighbor in of sorts along with a whole host of other public utilities. So when we think about long-term leases and we think about the long-term impact to that land and who's ultimately responsible for
that land should something occur that may in any way um pollute that land or somehow harm it from an environmental perspective. Then we want to know who's responsible for it. you, the county, certainly not us, and to the extent that
someone is responsible, what sort of financial protections they'll put in place at some point in the future. And as I said, you're adjacent to one of the largest super fund sites in the country, one that's been responsibly remediated and will continue to be, but will
probably last another 30 years in remediation. That concerns us, as does your property as well, should something happen. Yeah. U understood. I'd like to put that in the same category that I just mentioned with respect to the term of the ground lease. Yes. And get back
to you on that. Though I can tell you it's uh very common in a long-term ground lease. Obviously, for the owner operator of this facility to be responsible for, you know, environmental issues arising from our operations. I'm sure the county is not going to be taking that on.
>> Right. >> Right. So, it's it's going to be us. And as I said, we need long term. we have long term. >> Yeah. And and certainly you can get back to us with the particulars, but it is an important component that the board has to evaluate in the overall picture as we
hear the additional um experts and testimony that you're going to be offering. >> Right. >> Mr. Chairman, >> please. >> I just have a question. Um a good point you brought up. When a nonprofit starts using their property for profit, um they usually lose that tax exempt. Is that
something our tax assessor can look into? So, >> it's, you know, the county is not really a nonprofit in that sense, >> but they're tax exempt. >> They are. They are. But I think, and one of my notes was to contact the tax assessor for that purpose as well, but
um I don't want to venture a guess on it. I'm not really >> No, no. That's why I thought maybe our tax assessor could tell you how the assessment would work, >> answer that. >> But it's something you can certain we can check. >> Okay. >> Yeah. We'll be getting additional information as Mr. Pantel gets back to us and has >> Mr. Eer connects with the tax assessor
and so on. So we'll be able to put together >> and complete picture to be in contact with Mr. following that consultation that he he'll have. >> Great. >> No problem at all. No problem at all. So getting back to a few brass tax about
lot lines and all that sort of thing. >> Right. >> Okay. So, as I mentioned, two lots. Um, the property, let me just see where we are here. So, one of the items with respect to the
um well, but you'll you'll see on the plans um you'll see in this exhibit that we're going to post in connection with the testimony that you'll be hearing tonight uh is the location of the facility uh on the site. Uh the site you'll see is bounded by the Conrail
Railroad uh on the on the uh east side of the property. Polus Lane immediately adjacent to that and then across the street from Polus Lane PSG substation on the north side obviously Main Street
on the west side obviously the the county improvement authority land in that county complex and to the south there's a disposal active disposal and I think it's trash and recycling sort of facility uh which is immediately uh to
the south of the site Right. >> And that's on Pis Lane. >> That's on PEus Lane. Yeah. And access to it, I believe, is actually 15 Pis Lane, considerably south. >> And and it is only accessible via Paul Hemis Lane. There's no other access
point to that facility >> to the disposal facility. Actually, I believe there is, as you'll see on the site plan. I think it's a probably a secondary entrance, >> but I did see it on uh Earth View. I was just looking at the plan the other day. which is probably used as secondary or
service vehicle. Right at the bend in the road, we have Rael Lane where it bends around, I think, to Newberry Street. Right at that bend, there's a cut if you're familiar with that. >> It may be um for emergency access, but um it's closed off currently >> mostly.
>> And I will I'll just add to that that as you continue on Polus, you're going to also find the Ronin Valley Sewage Authority, the New Jersey American Water Treatment Facility. there's a a whole host of services that not only provide
those services to Bridgewater but also to other towns within the county. >> Right. >> So, we're very very sensitive too as to access to those facilities especially in the case of any emergency. >> Yeah, understood. Yeah, I'm familiar
with the Somerset Rail Baron Valley Sewage Authority. I've done a lot of land development work throughout Somerset County. So, >> Okay. >> Definitely have familiar. I've been back there for sure. U what a best facility does is it really represents a
modernization of the energy infrastructure and enhance it serves to enhance the resiliency of the of the power grid in the area. Uh it does also I hadn't mentioned maximizes utilization of renewable energy sources which you'll
hear about because renewal renewable energy sources tend to be generating excess power during noon time especially with this especially if you have a bright sunny day and to prevent the waste uh that you might get of from the
over production of electricity during uh hours around noon etc. utilization of an integration of a best facility into the grid prevents the waste uh of that electricity. Uh it's an important point and in fact on the first executive well
the second executive order because it was executive order number two signed by uh governor Cheryl uh on January 2026, the day she was sworn in as governor. She issued her executive order number two in which she recognized the electric
capacity shortfall from the most recent electric capacity auction New Jersey was 4.5 gawatts u which was approximately equivalent to electricity consumption of nearly all residential households in the state. Her
executive order went on further to advise that since solar energy and battery storage can be developed in months rather than the several years it takes to develop either nuclear nuclear plants or gas fired plants. That time
lag makes solar and battery storage facilities and I quote particularly critical technologies to meeting the state's electricity supply shortage. uh best facilities do include two primary benefits to a local mute
community. They tend to lower computer uh consumer prices because what we do is we buy electricity during peak hours uh and then sell it back into the grid at prices that may be more beneficial than you would otherwise see power being
generated back into uh the grid. Uh it's our facility is not particularly large as facilities go. They can sometimes be 100, 200, 300 megawatts, but it's not tiny by any means. It's a 20 megawatt facility. Can power up to 20,000 homes
for four hours. Um so they tend to be able to prevent brownouts or blackouts. It's can be a very much appreciated and valued resource to the region including of course Bridgewater Township. uh it
happens to be located right next to the PSEG substation and may very well end up with a power supply agreement with PSENG has given that proximity to the substation but doesn't have to be connected into the PSEG substation but
that does lend uh some additional potential uh benefit to the to the region if you will >> is that one of the criteria you used for your site selection. >> Yeah, it is. It absolutely is that we we did take that into consideration.
>> I know one of the questions that certainly I had and >> maybe other members of the board would have is when you look at this site in particular were questioning why this site is so ideal for your business. And some of the
things you're saying, I'm sure we'll hear from perhaps the principles of the business about battery energy storage systems and how they might um reduce the um the pressure on the grid. But the grid takes the flow of electricity, does
it not? And move it to where it's needed. So you can't really differentiate among the power that's coming into the through the grid into your facility or to my house or any other user of electricity. It's just
electricity as far as we're concerned. And when you start to talk about the um the green aspect to this or the environmentally friendly or maybe there's another term associated that I can't think of. >> Sustainable. sustainable is one, but that's that's a little nobody really
knows what that means. So, um, but in any event, we're we're curious to know down the road how you can differentiate because often times like if I have a battery energy storage solution that I built and I'm adjacent to a solar
field that I own, then I say, "Oh, wait a minute. That makes sense. I can't put the energy that's I'm using. I'm generating too much and I have no place to sell it. Maybe I could put it in a battery somewhere or maybe there's another kind of generation I might be
using and similarly store it. But in your case, you don't generate anything. Is that correct? >> Correct. Whereas there's not a generation. We we we store electricity and transmit it into the system. >> Right. >> Right. >> And you and you you stated, however, that you do so in a way that would
reduce the rate to the consumer. But I don't think that's accurate a description as to what happens in the business model you might have for or your client might have. But maybe he can talk about that. >> Yeah, I'd like to I'd like people to have a bit of an open mind on those sorts of questions because I don't I'm
not here as an expert myself. >> But we do have with us tonight. I should let you know uh three witnesses who I would like to present to the to the board. one John seeker who is a principal of the applicant who has a lot of experience in the energy industry. Uh
he's devoted the past several years to development of best facilities. Before that he's had a lot of experience in other aspects of the energy industry including uh development of largecale power plants. Uh so I think he'll be able to respond to some of those
questions along those lines. And we have with us as well Joe Brown from Trina Solar who will be is responsible for the sale and then operation and maintenance of this facility to Rockland APV. and he
can certainly address as well the question and comment you just made regarding the grid and where renewable energy >> I'm sorry just roll that back a a minute it was Joe Brown >> Joe Brown John seeker is the first one is >> I got his name >> and then we also received I as I'm sure
the board knows a report uh from the township a while ago regarding a a fire situation that had occurred in an Arizona best facility >> and we have with us tonight, Leonard Dionin of Jensen Hughes, who's done two
things of real consequence in connection with the application. One, this the second thing he did actually was to respond to that uh report that had been provided to us regarding that Arizona fire. It was a UL underwriters laboratory report that made various
recommendations and had included various analysis that arose out of that Arizona fire. So, we can certainly uh address that. That was a number of years ago uh that incident. He also prepared uh an emergency response plan uh for this
facility in connection with which he actually met with Bridgewater and Somerville fire people back in last June of 25 or so. And that emergency response plan is part of the record and he definitely would like to be able to testify to the board about uh the nature
of emergency response should one arise. Mr. Brown, by the way, I think will testify that there's their their company has installed some 250 of these facilities nationally and internationally and has not had any fire episodes with them. Uh,
but we're not we by the same token we have submitted an emergency response plan. We feel obviously we would we definitely would do that whether or not as to do so and we have a very detailed emergency response plan that Mr. Uh, Donnaring will address.
>> I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just I'm one of these sticklers. So Joe Joe Brown's the name of his company is >> Trina T R I N A Solar. >> Got it. >> And they will be providing the the the
components of the best facility and he will be oper operating and maintaining that facility as well. Will he be responsible for the construction of it as well or is that somebody else? >> Trina Solar will be and he can address
the particulars of Trina. >> I'm sorry. I just wanted to get the name right so I have it in front of me. Thank you. >> Easy one. Joe Brown. >> Leonard's last name I didn't get, but I figured we can get to that later. >> Let me tell you, Dehonarine. D E O N
A R I N E. Leonard Dehonarine. >> Got it. Thank you. >> Okay. So, unless there's any questions for me at this point, uh, what I would like to do is turn things over to John Seeker from >> By all means,
>> Rockland APV. >> Thank you. Thank you very much, everybody. Appreciate it. Thank you. >> Mr. Speaker, would you uh raise your right hand, please? You solemnly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> I do. Yes,
>> you sir. >> So, could you please Whoops. Is this Am I being picked up by the mic here? >> Yes, I think so. >> Okay, good. Thank you. >> So, Mr. Speaker, could you please >> Now you're not. So, you kind of have to be within a hands width of the mic. >> Is this better?
>> Yes. >> Okay, good. Thank you. hand. >> Um, you've just heard our our initial exchange with the board, especially Mr. Kulak, the board chair. So, what I'd like to have you do is uh give the board an overview uh of the nature of the
application that's before them this evening and a little bit of background on yourself. And one thing I'd like to add too, we had some reference to the fact and you'll hear further reference to the fact that while we believe the facility is inherently beneficial use,
we will definitely present be presenting testimony in support of the application for its approval as an inherently beneficial use and also if the board also has a use which is not inherently beneficial. So both grounds will be presented to the board. The application
by no means hinges by itself on inherently beneficial use classification. We believe it should be treated that way, but we're going to address the proofs both ways. >> Okay. And council, you have a professional planner who's going to testify at the end to on those >> AB. Absolutely. She's not with us here
tonight, but she'll be reviewing the transcript. We know we weren't going to be getting to her testimony this evening. Katherine Gregory uh will be presenting that testimony for us. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So, Mr. Seeker, if you would. >> Uh, good evening, Mr. Chair and members
of the board. Uh, my name is John Seeker, and I'm here on behalf of Rock APV Bridgewater Energy LLC. Uh, by background, I am an engineer. I have a bachelor of science degree from Syracuse University and a master of science
degree from Columbia University, both in mechanical engineering. I've been an energy developer since 1983. And over the course over the course of my career, I've developed energy projects across a number of different
technologies, including hydroelectric facilities, biomass facilities, waste energy facilities, um natural gas facilities, and more recently now since uh 2020, battery facilities.
Since 2011, I've served as CEO of American Power Ventures. Uh we're a developer located in Bernardsville, New Jersey, and through a partnership with Rockland Capital, we develop clean energy projects uh throughout the
Northeast and Mid-Atlantic states. >> I'm sorry. You're CEO of American Power Ventures. >> American Power Ventures. That's >> when when we talk about Rockland APV, that's a merging of those two companies or a blending. >> It's a partnership between the two two
companies. Yes. So Rockland by itself, how would you describe that company? >> Rockland is a private equity firm that invests in the energy space >> uh primarily in uh batteries and solar but also in natural gas projects and
they've been around for over 20 years. >> Yes. >> So they're they're the funer behind us and we do the day-to-day implementation of this type of work, the project manager, so to speak. >> Right. So you're CEO of American Power Ventures. There's a partnership between Rockland Energy,
>> Rockland Capital, >> sorry, Rockland Capital, and you and Rockland Capital is a how would you describe them? A financial services firm and >> Yes, they're they're a private equity firm. So, what they take is institutional investor money and they
invested in the energy space. they own and operate uh these types of facilities and um based on the returns that they receive they provide those types of returns back to their investors. >> So when we talk about the the relationship
um the product if you will the sale of stored electricity is something that they're interested in from a profitm point of view. >> Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, as Glenn mentioned in his introduction, our um, application
concerns the development of a the subdivision of property at 760 East East uh, Main Street to allow for the development of a 20 megawatt 80 megawatt hour battery energy storage system. And as Glenn mentioned, that's commonly
referred to as a BES. So, you'll hear me refer to it in that manner um in my testimony. Um I'd like to explain why this facility is not only appropriate for this site, but also essential to the uh future
reliability and stability of New Jersey's uh electric grid. Um, and while I do not profess to be a land use planner, it's my understanding that the characteristics of the proposed best, many of which will be described further
by uh Joe Brown on the technical side uh with Trina Solar, support the conclusion that this project uh represents an inherently beneficial use. >> That's a conclusion that this board has to come to the end of your presentation.
>> Yes, of course. Understood. Um, at its core, uh, a battery energy storage, uh, facility is a critical tool for maximizing the use of renewable energy resources such as solar and wind.
Um, solar and wind facilities generate electricity when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing. And that generation often occurs during off- peak hours. Uh wind typically blows at night and um the power is not really in high demand
during those times and as Glenn mentioned solar is typically uh generated during the middle of the day uh not at the end of the day or in the morning when people are getting home and turning on their air conditioners and making dinner that type of thing. So,
uh, what batteries essentially do is store the energy that would otherwise be wasted during those off- peak hours and then delivers it back into the grid during the peak hours when it's actually needed. >> When you say it's wasted, that's something that really I think most
people would say, well, what happens to it? >> It it's actually curtailed. Um, the grid cannot absorb that energy because the demand's not there. And so without that demand uh that energy must be curtailed. So the grid operator literally tells the
owner of that wind facility or the solar facility, you've got to turn down the dial. You can't put that energy into the grid. Now if there's a battery project that can absorb that energy, then they can turn up the dial and it goes into the battery.
>> How is it that you turn down solar? Um, you probably dislocate some of the the panels. Uh, I don't know the technical side of that. Maybe Joe Joe could address that from a technical standpoint. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And with with wind, it's easier because
they just shut down the turbine. Is that what I'm saying? >> Mhm. >> Um, but it's still going to spin anyway, right? Because that's what >> it'll spin. It just won't be connected to the generator, >> right? Yeah. >> Okay. Please continue. I'm sorry. Thank you. >> You have a question. >> Yeah. Will will the power into the
battery come directly from a wind or solar source? Is it going to go through the grid and then to yours? it will go through the grid and so you can't guarantee that it's 100% solar and wind but it is essential and especially as the grid continues to grow um with wind
and solar and now the state of New Jersey is really pushing those technologies uh batteries will be a very essential component to uh uh to that growth. >> Can I ask you a question before I really get a little confused here?
>> Yeah. talk about the battery, the grid, the solar, everything. So, can I interpret it that you would almost have to have an agreement with the utility company to make your project successful? >> Um, it's not a requirement. It is a
preference. Um, 20 years ago, those types of agreements were very common. Um now with the development of the grid and spot markets um you are selling into the market >> essentially minute by minute
>> then that you have an agreement with that could go to your storage could go to them then and not to public service or >> correct >> we we could have an agreement with public service. We could have an
agreement with uh financial entities as well that trade energy on the market. So there are people for example when our power is sold into the grid we'll sell it into the local grid operator PJM. >> They would have to connect into your facility then.
>> Yes. We will apply for an interconnection agreement >> lost here because if you did public service they would just connect into you. So you could do almost anybody but they'd have to connect into your facility. their your storage
>> there. There are two different ways that you can sell power. One is a physical connection and the other is a financial uh uh hedge agreement. So for example, when we sell power into the grid, we're selling into the PJM system and that is
every I think >> explain PJM to us. >> Yeah. Yeah. PJM is the regional grid operator. So it's um >> stand >> what they do is >> PJM does it stand for something that's the >> stands for Persy sorry uh Pennsylvania
Jersey Maryland interconnection PJM. >> Got it. >> But it actually extends uh down into Delaware, Maryland, uh Virginia. Um and um I think that's it. So, and
what they do is they balance the power because typically your inter your interconnected system needs to be balanced in a way to provide electricity throughout this spider system. So, they have a lot of different controls where
they turn down certain plants, turn up certain plants, and they regulate the generation of electricity from your power plants to make sure the grid is stable and we don't have blackouts. So they physically control the electricity. >> You're saying that there one of the ways
that um you may be able to buy and sell energy is through financial instruments. And when you do that, you're essentially turning over the pricing to professionals who hedge positions, who
manage financial assets, and try and do it in a way that for them is profitable based on what they forecast and what their models are and so on. >> Exactly. And those people are um primarily your who you're looking to do
business with and sell your energy to. We will sell into the spot market of PJM which is I think every six se every six minutes there's a new price on the grid and we will be receiving that revenue from the grid
>> and what we could do is we could go to a hedge counterparty a financial party who says you give me that revenue that you receive every six minutes and in return I will give you a flat price of X >> and that will be pretty much discounted.
it off the price of the grid if you look long term. But the benefit to someone like us is we then can pledge those revenues to a bank and go out and raise the financing for this type of facility. So typically that's what we would seek
to do and that could be PSEG, could be JCPNL or any multitude of huge banks that do the same thing. um City Bank, uh all the big banks have energy trading floors where they have many many traders
that trade electricity, trade gas, and trade many other types of commodities. >> I appreciate the explanation from a land use board perspective. We're trying to balance a lot of factors here in making
a decision and one of them um is how Bridgewater may benefit from such a facility like this um or how consumers may benefit. And when you explain it the way in which you did uh it makes it more
difficult, not that your explanation wasn't good, it was it was perfect. It makes it more difficult to understand how we might benefit from that. >> So please continue. Right. Um I I think if I could address that point um again
we're delivering power when the power is most needed and during that time in PJM again in the spot market that's when prices are extremely high. So what we do is we lop off the highest prices during that time by providing that power. And
if we're not there to provide the power, some old dirty plants in Newark are going to be running on oil and producing the power because those are the alternatives when you have these peaks. Um so we will be offsetting high-powered
otherwise facilities produced by um power produced by facilities that would produce it uh with a lot more pollution and at a higher price. what you sell into the grid would typically be lower priced than the other oil fired facilities for instance that
you just alluded to. >> Correct. >> And when that happens, when you're selling power into the grid at a lower price, what does that do ultimately? What is the the tendency of that to do ultimately to the price the consumer will pay? It'll bring it down because
we're selling into the wholesale markets and it'll bring down the markets that where PSEG and JCPNL go and purchase their energy to then sell to to the ultimate consumers. >> Presumably, you you purchased that
energy yourself because you only store it at a lower price than that which you are selling, >> right? And since you have a financial partner who's interested in maximizing profits for their large financial institutions and invest with them, how
does that make sense to the common guy walking down the street? I buy it for less, but I don't sell it for the maximum I can. And yet my my investors are happy with that. >> The investors are happy. They're compensated in PJM. And this was going
to be part of my uh testimony here, >> please. is that the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, as Glenn mentioned in his um his opening remarks, uh passed um an order, I think it's 841
in February of 2018, and it forced um grid operators like PJM to enable financial structures to compensate batteries through not just energy differentials where You pay less to
charge and more to sell, but also for reliability. So all facilities in PJM and previously batteries were not compensated this way. They receive a payment every year just for being available. So it's essentially like
insurance and that's called a capacity payment. >> And that capacity payment is a guaranteed revenue that you receive just for being there for the year. >> Mr. secret. I I apologize if I'm making you answer questions out of order. So, if you feel as though you're going to
get to something, you can feel free to tell me that I'll be covering that in a few minutes or in the next segment or what have you. But, thank you for indulging us in answering our questions because the the the kind of um description that you provide is very helpful and we would have no way of
knowing that had you not explained it to us. So, thank you. >> Of course. And can you also comment on the effect of of a best system in terms of preventing brown outs and mitigating against blackouts? >> Yes, I will get to that in my testimony
as well. So I will >> youer on that question. >> Um >> oh wait, I'm sorry Mrs. Amin. >> This is more like a financial question. The way usually batteries
uh application is applied where you have like a solar system on the site itself. Right here you don't have a solar system or any anything else on site. All you're going to do is send the electricity to
public service. Right? And you also need to have electricity coming in to charge the batteries and there will be loss of electricity while moving from there to you uh in the transformers and the
equipment. So there is a loss. Now the question I have is, is public service going to pay you a lot more money for your electricity than you have to pay them for the the
electricity that comes in to charge your batteries. You you need to pay for that, right? >> Yes. That's the basic structure um of of the energy difference, not the capacity payments that we receive, but the difference in in energy. You're right.
So, when we charge, we'll pay for those 80 megawatt hours that we need to charge, we'll pay something, let's say 10 cents >> per kilowatt hour, but then when we sell, we'll sell at 13 cents a kilowatt hour. So, we'll be making that 3 cents a kilowatt hour
>> as an example. as an example. Yeah, these are just prices that I'm >> using as the money left for you to run the facility and pay the expenses necessary. Right. >> Right. Then and the capacity payments >> that's what you Okay.
>> But would such an agreement with public service electric gas again is a hypothetical I think is the question that's been asked. But would that could then have the effect of reducing the the cost to PSEG of that electricity as
opposed to them having generated it themselves. So again could could conceivably reduce the cost to the consumer. >> Correct. And again just to be clear we're selling into PJM. We wouldn't be selling physically to PSEG. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Excuse me. Excuse me. I have a question. Yes, please. Who who makes the capacity payments? >> Those come from PJM. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Well, so if I can get back to the testimony then. Um beyond the renewable
integration with that we talked about with solar and wind working in tandem with with um with storage um a best facility also serves as a very fast responding uh generation source uh and a
flexible grid resource. Uh for example, and maybe Joe will speak to this, but natural gas plants might take an hour to get up to full speed and start generating power. Coal plants 24 hours. Nuclear you can't really turn on and
off. So they have to run. But a battery is virtually instantaneous. So when you have an outage on the system, it can immediately turn on and help to solve that issue. So for that reason, it's also very essential to what's called
grid resiliency. And maybe that's a word you've heard used around the uh um the electric sector. And that goes to the point that Glenn had asked me about with the ability to respond very quickly to outages.
These faces of facilities, the best facilities can prevent brownouts and blackouts. And that was part, I think, of order number two that you referred to, Glenn, um that our governor just passed in in January,
Governor Cheryl. So if you have an in a lack of power supply due to problems with the PSE and G plant that may be somewhat remote to the facility. So somewhat remote to the immediate area, your facility can kick
in and alleviate that problem. >> Correct. >> Correct. To the tune of producing selling as much power as you could have needed to supply 20,000 homes for four hours. So we're not talking about a minuscule amount of power by any means. Correct.
>> You keep saying can. So what conditions will it not >> saying it can't kick in? Right. My UPS systems on my data center will kick in if the power goes out. They don't say they'll kick in if I pay them X, Y, or Z
to turn on. They just turn on. Right. >> Yes. Correct. >> That the same with this. like no matter what if there's a blackout and a brown out that best is going to contribute power to the grid that's going to power our town or is it powering wherever you're sending the power to?
>> That's a very good question. So yes, it will respond immediately to a signal from PJM. Again, they control the grid who runs and who doesn't run. And so when that signal reaches our facility, we will immediately turn on
Now, we will be connecting to a wire that runs right at the north side on East Main Street that is a 26 kilovolt um line. And that line does run into the PSEG substation
across the street. So the fact that we're close to the substation will enable us to also put the power into that substation which will then spread it out like a spiderweb through other
lines. So so it should um create additional reliability locally as those lines are connected um throughout Bridgewater and of course further away as well. But if there is a need, you will always be meeting that. You would
never be a situation where you would prevent the power that you're storing from going into the grid or leaving if it's needed. >> All of that is automatically um regulated and and and um it's all automatic. The only thing that would prevent it is if we have an outage.
>> Fair enough. Right. So, I wanted to talk a little bit about battery energy storage and um um how it's supported at both the federal and the state level. And I think um Glenn made some references there. And I spoke
earlier about on the federal level uh there's uh Federal Energy Regulatory Commission Order 841. And again, it it it's an order that directed regional grid operators to remove barriers to the participation of
uh battery storage facilities uh in wholesale electric markets. And it ensures that battery facilities are fairly compensated again for reliability. That's what they're compensated for under guaranteed to be comp compensated for under this order. So it's not
necessarily for the energy arbitrage. It's for making sure that for compensating in recognition that battery projects provide reliability to the grid. And so the the FK as it's called passed this order.
Um at the federal level as well, the inflation reduction act you may have heard referred to uh passed in 2022 created an investment tax credit of 30%. for these energy storage facilities uh
which is a strong incentive again for investment and that has significantly uh accelerated deployment of these types of facilities uh throughout the country. >> So it begs the question as to if not for that incentive would this still be a
viable business? It's getting there. Like solar facilities which were I don't know 15 years ago had just come to the market and were starting to get built. You know now solar is less expensive than natural
gas. And at the time they first came in natural gas was quite a bit cheaper. So the idea behind this investment tax credit is to kickstart the technology and through competition and additional technical developments improve the
economics. >> Does the incentive financial incentive sunset at some point? >> Yes, it does. Um it's over a number of years. I don't have the the numbers in front of me, but maybe five years something. >> The intention is to as you say kickstart,
>> right? and then over time just disappear so to speak and hopefully the business stands on its own >> right battery pro batteries should decline in cost over time and become self-supportive economically >> right that's the premise we'll see what
happens >> yeah we'll see what happens >> thank you >> um so that's at the federal level and then here at the state level um the state has been equally clear about incentives for these energy storage
facilities. Um the 2019 energy master plan um produced by the state uh established the goal of deploying 2500 sorry 2,000 megawatts of energy storage by 2030
and with subsequent modeling that showed in actuality 2500 megawatts was more likely needed to maintain that system reliability. Um the the plan explicitly recognized battery storage as a critical tool for
both u achieving a decarbonized energy system and supporting again grid resiliency. >> And that goal of 2,000 megawatts is of energy storage facilities such as ours. >> Correct. That's for energy storage
across the state. Um, in August of 2025, in response to rising electricity costs and growing supply concerns, Governor Murphy uh signed legislation directing the Board of Public Utilities to
establish a statewide energy storage incentive program. Uh, that's known as the Garden State Energy Storage Program now to advance the state's um energy master plan storage goals.
Um during policy discussions leading up to that legislation, some publicly available m materials reference potential incentives um citing figures up to $400 per kilowatt hour, which we referenced, I
think, in some of our written materials and uh primarily in connection with small distributed uh storage facilities or behind the meter facilities as you were asking. And if those are connected to solar,
uh they you would kind of be blind at the u at the meter. They would be behind the meter. So these incentives were created for these smaller behind the meter type facilities. Um and for larger grid uh connected facilities like the one uh proposed here, um incentives will
be structured through some program rules and a competitive process uh established by the uh BPO, the Board of Public Utilities. and that's in the process now of getting finalized. Um anyway, the specific dollar amount u
of these incentives is is not the material uh point that I would like to make for this application. uh what is really material is the overwhelming support and uh uh consistent public policy of the state to uh promote and accelerate
deployment of battery energy storage uh as essential infrastructure. Um that urgency was reinforced in the 2024 energy master plan released on November 24th last year and that plan
emphasized the need to accelerate deployment of solar, wind and battery storage and noted that PJM is projecting a 24,000 megawatt regional shortfall in capacity
by 2030. That's not in New Jersey. That's in all of the states that PGM serves. >> And that's all energy that there's a limited capacity with 24 >> 24,000 megawatt megawatt or 20 megawws.
>> This would be 24,000 in the region >> and that's from all sources of energy. They have a shortfall. >> Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. >> And that's due largely to all these data centers being built, isn't it? >> Yes. Um the plan also noted the most recent
PJM auction um capacity auction in July of 2025 resulted in approximately $2 billion in additional energy costs for New Jerseys uh families and businesses.
And this is the annual auction for that capacity component that's like the insurance. So every year PGM conducts um an auction and all the suppliers bid in their prices and those prices have been going up and up and up because of
these shortages in supply and demand imbalances. And as Glenn mentioned, um, on Nove sorry, on January 20th, 2026, Governor Cheryl, uh, on her first day in office
issued Executive Order number two. And that uses New Jersey's emergency powers to mobilize state efforts to um, rapidly expand storage and solar, among other generation resources. Um it also
streamlines the state approval process making it easier for facilities to get approvals from state agencies and um and the other uh initiative was to protect grid uh reliability.
Um that order was issued in recognition of a 4500 megawatt regional capacity shortfall that exists today whereas the 24,000 was in 2030. and that's roughly equivalent to u the
electricity consumption of nearly all residences uh in New Jersey. It also warned that without swift action brownouts and blackouts could occur jeopardizing public health safety and welfare. As Glenn mentioned, and I'll re uh
reinforce here, um the order further recognized that solar and battery projects can be developed in a matter of months versus other types of projects that need years. And so the these are particularly critical technologies for
addressing the state's near-term electricity supply challenges. Is is that also true when we look at power plants that have been decommissioned, taken offline, because both in the prior administration and the current administration, to my
knowledge, there are no plans to put those plants back online. And you even mentioned a little earlier about the coal fired plants in New York that they have to fire up once in a while to help support the grid, >> right? So the question becomes, did we
create the problem and now we're solving it? What what exactly are we doing? And can those other plants be re recommissioned or restarted? Um the answer is in all likelihood they can. Uh although I'm not sure how quickly
>> because as equipment sits rotating turbo machinery for example needs to be rotated needs to m be maintained in order to be able to continue to operate. A lot of those plants are moth balled with no ongoing intention to ever bring them back. So now that equipment may
need to be um may need to be refurbished and that could take years as well. >> Thank you. >> So anyway, I think we've talked a lot about the backdrop and the energy situation in the state. So um it's
against that backdrop that um this proposed Bridgewater facility we think should be uh should be viewed. And um to repeat um the project will produce 20 megawatts of capacity with the ability
to discharge 80 megawatt hours before recharging. >> That's over a 4h hour period of time. Is that how the math works? >> Yes. >> Thank you. And um this it's a small facility, but it's meaningful and timely in terms of its contribution to New Jersey's energy
storage needs. Um and from a local perspective to some of the questions that were asked here, the facility will reduce strain uh on the grid during periods of uh peak usage uh improving reliability for residents, businesses,
and uh critical services such as schools, hospitals, and u first responders. It'll also prevent the waste of renewable energy um by storing excess solar and wind
during uh generated during off- peak hours and delivering it later when demand is highest and the power is most needed. And it will operate as a quiet non-polluting neighbor with no smoke stacks, no emissions, no water
consumption, no water wastewater discharge. So in in short, this project directly addresses uh New Jersey's urgent energy challenges. Uh it strengthens grid reliability, advances clearly
articulated state energy policy, and delivers meaningful environmental and community benefits. Um the technical details of the site layout, safety system and u zoning
compliance will be addressed by others uh on our team. Uh my purpose this evening has been to uh introduce the project and explain how it serves the public interest and advances the state's energy goals. >> Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of
questions if I may. >> Please. How many sites are there in New Jersey? How many best bees sites are there in New Jersey? >> Um, I will defer to Joe Brown on that question. Okay. >> He may have better stats than myself.
>> Do we know how many of those sites are privately owned versus governmental government owned? >> To my knowledge, I don't think there are any government-owned sites. I think there are to my knowledge there are no uh government or utility
owned sites. >> Okay. So all these sites, however many there are, are owned by private companies. >> To my knowledge. Yes. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Can I ask you a question? >> Of course. >> It was brought up a couple times and you mentioned a couple minutes ago this is a relatively small facility. Um what is an
average size and of a some of the other ones? Um this is only on >> Yes, this is on just under three acres. Um so in terms of the facilities that we are developing with Rockland, this is
the smallest one that we have. >> What would be like the next size up in >> for our portfolio? We have two 80 megawatt facilities. This 20 megawatt >> four times the size of
>> four times the size. Correct. >> And would still be being that small this project still be beneficial to >> Yes. >> economical viewpoint. >> Yes. We are developing a 200 megawatt
project as well in Texas outside of the Rockland platform uh with some other investors that that would be I think a medium size. There are some projects that are 500 megawatts. This is really small. >> This is really small.
>> Yeah. >> Great, Mr. Chairman. >> Please. >> So, um, thank you for the testimony. You know, it's it's it's great, you know, bringing in the politics of sort of our state and sort of maybe these are the folks that got us in this mess and now they're the ones that are giving rebates
and discounts for building new ones is is ironic to me a little bit. But as the CEO, are you is it safe to assume you're the guy that is involved with site selection? >> Yes. >> Okay, great. So, I want to talk about site selection because I think if it was
just as simple as saying yes or no, I think we all see there's a benefit to this. Um, but I think what's important though um for this board is where you're putting it. And I I guess you answered a few of them. One of my questions was how
it benefits you being close to the substation. And then you said something I believe you testified 26 ft. Did you say that it was 26 ft? >> No. No. >> Okay. >> No, I said it's it's connecting to a distribution line that runs right past
our site and it's a 26 kilovolt or KV. >> Oh, sorry. Okay. >> KV. >> How close is it? How close is it to the substation? >> It's across Pyus. So my guess would be 100 ft, >> right? So does that benefit you having it that close if you had it in a farm in
Hillsboro? >> Um I think it benefits the reliability of the local grid. It doesn't necessarily benefit us. What really benefits us is that the 26 KV line that runs right by our facility means we don't have to go very far in putting in
a line from our facility to connect to a far away substation. >> I understand. And and that's to the point my my colleague made was was it putting is there any loss if you put it in a farm in Hillsboro where there's no
stream there's no water treatment there's no uh ballpark nearby there's no massive uh you know malls and things nearby why couldn't you put it there >> you know I think that's probably a
question better for Joe Brown who's our next witness Yeah, but it's a sight selection question. I think I I think that he's certainly qualified as the CEO to make that. Were you involved with that? I'm just asking, would it would it be would it be less profitable if you
put it in a farm in Hillsboro than where you're putting it now or >> it it depends. It would cost more to connect to that point in the grid, but each point in the grid is called a node.
And each node has electricity priced slightly differently than other nodes because it reflects supply and demand at that node. If you're delivering into a node in Newark, for example, where there's a very heavy uh industrial base,
that power will be more expensive whether I generate it, you know, when I generate it with a 20 megawatt facility in Newark, I'll get paid a much higher price. So I can build further away and build a more expensive line because that'll be worth the investment.
>> Interesting. Okay. Can you can you tell us how many you mentioned you had 280 I think you said you have a 500 in development. How many projects is um has APV worked on? How many of these have you built? >> Um it's a fairly nent industry. So we
are developing but we haven't constructed one yet. >> Okay. All right. I think that's important. Okay. Um um so one of my colleagues asked if there are any government-owned and I think your answer was no to that. There
are no government-owned. >> Um I'm not aware of any in New Jersey. >> Right. >> Right. >> Um okay. So some other questions came up I think and um the chairman brought up about nuclear. We all hopefully know
about these nano nuclear sites that they're working on. What what happens to this if if Bill Gates succeeds and makes, you know, these nano sites uh profitable in in 10 years? I mean, that's the whole point of these, right? They're built quicker.
What happens in five years if that becomes the sort of trendy energy um mechanism? What happens to this? What's what's the endgame look like when these are maybe rendered useless? I don't think they'll be rendered
useless because nuclear facilities by design cannot be regulated up and down just because of the technology. So when they run, if your power demand curve goes like this throughout the day or the
year, nuclear is just flat. So it's the first thing you turn on and then you turn on gas and then you turn on at the end these battery facilities which can follow the load as that load uh varies
throughout the day and throughout the year. So I don't think nuclear will ever displace batteries. >> Okay. So what will it look like though if this is I mean there you know there aren't that many of them out there but I mean if it
if it became uneconomical to have it just tear it down. >> Well we we would decommission and remove the equipment if if that's >> that's what I'm ask >> what you're asking. Yeah. >> Yes. Okay. And just just one last thing I just want to be thorough about the site because I think as this case goes
on we're going to talk more and more about the location. Um, how long does it take to to pick these? I mean, you're local. You guys are in Burnersville, so I'm assuming this is nice nice close site for you, but how long did it take to find this site?
>> It took about 3 to four months to find this site. >> What we did is we commissioned a study by a transmission system engineering firm and we said, "Look at all the sites where substations are located in New
Jersey." And then what we did was we looked at the price of power at those sites to see where the highest power prices were and where the economics would work best for us. And then we looked around those sites to see if there was land available close to those
sites and whether the land was agricultural, industrial, um, residential. and looking at the whole picture, we zeroed in on a number of sites that way. So, we did go through a process and we
approached a number of different land owners and some landers owners are are eager to transact and others aren't. So, it is a process, >> right? So, there's that substation thing. So, that that really is the the big the big factor. Um, so if there was
a substation near a farm, you could do this. You'd be more inclined to do it? Yes, we have an option on a site in Mansfield, New Jersey. It's a 50 acre residence um owned by a doctor and we've worked
out a deal with him to put an 8 megawatt facility there and we'll have to go about 3,000 ft to connect to a JCPNL substation. >> Okay. Um, last thing. Um,
you know, it it it's near the river, it's near it's near these other complexes. Um, of the ones that you have in development, the 280s, the 500, some of these other ones. Are any of those in similar sites?
Water treatment, you know, >> flood zone. >> Flood zone. >> Flood zones. Um, our Texas facility is in a flood zone, uh, but it's in an industrialized area. So, each site is fairly unique. Um, and it's, by the way,
that's a 200 megawatt site, not a 500 just for >> and and by the way, I think it's fair to point out we haven't gotten into site civil testimony. So, I don't think we should we shouldn't all presume that we have flood issues, etc. I think we have to hold off on that till we hear from
Craig. It's a long process this case. Yeah, it be Yep. Thank you. >> So, let's I think let's not try to compare this to others. >> No, but I but you know, like I said, this is the the man that's driving this business, right? He's making these decisions. So, I I just I think you
listen, I'm always pro business. I'm a business guy. That's what I do on this board. So, I I love it, you know, but I just I think just knowing what these insights are um are important, at least for me and maybe somebody else. But I I'll end it there. I appreciate you answering my questions. Thank you. Of course. >> And and Mr.
>> Yeah, please go ahead, M. Rose, >> what other sites did you look at? >> I would say we looked at 20 sites in all in New Jersey. Um, some in South Jersey. >> Can you narrow that to this area? >> To this area.
We looked for some other sites in Bridgewater. We looked um on Route 22. There's an abandoned site there that we um approached the owner about. uh the price was too high to support this type of investment.
Um we looked quite a bit in this area and this was really the only site that we found that was what we thought would be uh >> when you have a moment could you just make a list and send it to us. >> Sure. >> I would really like to know what else you looked at. >> Sure. Of course, Mr. Speaker, so you
understand the process that we're going through and appreciate you are answering our questions. The board members will pose questions. We will ask our board professionals to pose some questions as well and then we'll open it up to the public to answer to pose questions based
only on your testimony. So you're as I look at it from the board's point of view and I'll let each individual member speak when they have questions. We're looking at site selection as Mr. Fresco talked about. You've explained the business very well. So, we know that
this is a for-profit business. We know that you have investors behind it. We know that this meets all of the investment criteria required to provide them the kind of return. And then it also has some it takes advantage of incentives that are put in place and it
has some benefits that um you outlined with respect to the resiliency of the grid. perhaps um the profit margin has the two components both the arbitrage and the resiliency payments we'll call them or the guaranteed grid payments uh
and yet one of the the key driving factor that will come out is safety and we're not there yet with you I understand and we'll get some additional testimony to that extent but that's one of the reasons I was asking how long um
the lease is for the other because you're a financial services related company. Do you have a holding period in mind for this? Oftentimes, alternative investment funds try and hold something for three, maybe five years before they flip it out at a much bigger return. So,
do you have that in mind for your this plan strategy? >> No, there's really no timeline um for us. Um I believe our lease is 20 years. It could be 25. So, it's not a 15-year
um um that would be the minimum that we could um recoup our investment in and make some profit, >> right? >> But it is typical in this type of industry, in the power industry, for investors to sell these facilities to other investors. And so, we couldn't
guarantee that for 20 years we would be uh an owner here. >> Right. um >> with your financial partner Rocklin, do they have an average holding period time? Is it three years, five years? >> I would say their funds typically uh are five or seven years something in that
time frame. So if we use a funds um if we use those funds as the investment, those investors would be looking to get repaid during that time frame, five to seven years, >> right? And then we don't know who would be operating this facility in the
future. >> Well, >> won't be you. >> I' I'd like to Well, so Joe Brown is with Trina Solar. Yes. >> And he is selling the equipment to us. >> Mhm. >> And that equipment is always sold with a
long-term service agreement, and Joe will talk to that. Typically, it's a 15 or 20 year agreement with warranties. If you don't have a long-term service agreement without warranties, you will not get financing for this type of plant. >> Okay. >> He will be operating this plant, not me.
>> Fair enough. That's appreciate it. >> Let me see if there are any other board questions and then >> I have one, Mr. >> Yes. >> You testified that the U facility is 20,000 megawatts. Is there anything in the lease to expand
that down the road? In other words, you have a clause where maybe after a certain amount of time, you could buy lease more land and then make the facility bigger. >> Uh, no, we don't have an option to lease additional land.
>> And there's no thoughts of that? >> No. >> And Mr. Mr. Oler, if they were to in fact look toward um expanding the plan, assuming they had gotten an approval and so on, wouldn't they have to come back to this board? any assuming an approval any future expansion would require the
applicant to come back uh to this board. >> So let me ask our board professionals if there are any questions from Mr. Seeker specific to his testimony. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of questions. Um
and for the record, this is Katherine S, our planner asking the questions. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, so you mentioned kind of before that there the energy that these batteries will be charged by is kind of tangentially renewable because some portion of the
energy from the current grid is renewable. What what percentage of New Jerseys grid is is from renewable energy? >> Um, I think it's best for Joe Brown to respond to that question. Could we defer that to him?
>> Okay, I I can do that. I just think that some of the testimony that was provided included direct relations between um the best capturing wind and solar energy and um I think there should be something that substantiates that.
>> Yeah. >> Um yeah. So I yeah if it if the question is better for Mr. Brown then that's fine. Um, additionally, I think you'd mentioned that um during that pe those peak demand times
that the the bests would essentially provide energy at a lower cost than those peak rates essentially otherwise would. Right. And you'd mentioned particularly in conjunction with that that that would be in lie of a I can't remember if you said gas plant or
natural gas plant in Newark and it and dirty energy basically being kicked a dirty plant in Newark being kicked on. >> That would be coal is what he said. No, I'm kidding. >> Oil. I think the term that John used was oil fired. >> Oil fired. Sure. Thank you for clarifying that, Mr. Pantel. Um can can
you point to examples of of that happening? Would would the plan actually kick on or or not kick on depending on if the best facility um would it be in lie of you know would the plant actually turn off if the best if your best facility turned on or would it continue
to to operate and you know provide different energy elsewhere to the grid. >> It's probably not a direct onetoone connection. Right. So in Newark they have their own demand. So if that energy needs to be supplied as PJM determines
it must in that localized area then it's going to run. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Um I I just wanted to bring that up because in you know in light of the fact that a lot of the executive orders that were referenced talk about how demand is growing. I I would assume that probably
this facility is not going to be in lie of that you know another plant kicking on. Um, you'd mentioned that PJM pays the subsidy for these types of facilities or I'm calling it a subsidy, but I think you called it a capacity or uh what do
>> a capacity payment? Yes, >> capacity payment. Does PJM get that from federal funding or is that who is that funded by? Is it funded by the customers of PJM indirectly? >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. Um, and additionally, the I think
there was some reference in some of the application materials, and I'm not sure if you referenced it in your testimony, but there was some um from the NJBPU, there was some documentation about straw proposals from the uh New Jersey storage incentive program, um, which also had
additional incentives to the I think the federal incentives. And in that case, I don't know if they've been implemented. I know that there was proposals essentially through that documentation, but it would those subsidies also be paid for by the consumer?
>> I believe those would be. >> Yes. I and I and I mentioned that because it there was a term in one of those uh in some of the documentation that included recommendations uh that would minimize the period over which rateayers would support each energy storage resource. And so, um, in, you
know, in light of executive order number number one from the governor, Cheryl, um, I think it's interesting or at least, you know, just to put the whole picture together about rate increases, consumer pro protection, but then also understanding that these do have costs
involved still to to create new resources of energy. There are still costs in order to bring them online. >> Yes. that the consumer pays for essentially. Um, how long does it typically take to
charge a facility of this size? >> Four hours. >> Four hours to charge it. Okay. And it also and it can deploy that energy over four hours. >> Over four hours. >> Does, and this might be a question for another expert. Um,
does the lifetime of the battery ever take longer to charge as it as it um decreases in efficiency over its lifetime? Does it take longer than four hours? >> I would um like Joe Joe Brown to answer that question. >> Thank you. Um,
are any of these best facilities to your knowledge that you either you've been involved in or industrywide um more directly connected to actual renewable sources? Are there solar fields that have best, you know, batteries capturing energy? Are there wind um, you know,
facilities or thermal or nuclear facilities that have batteries? Right. Right. Right. On site. >> Yes. >> Um, and and in your site selection, did you look at any existing solar fields in Bridgewater Township or anywhere else in New Jersey where a facility could be
more directly connected to an actual renewable energy facility? Um, we we did not because the owners of those facilities would typically be developers like us who would then control the site and be able to integrate their own batteries onto their own site. So,
they're essentially would be competitors of ours. >> Okay. So, they'd be a competitor. Was there any um interest or in your sight selection in developing a solar facility uh to create renewable energy that the the battery uh the best
facility could be connected to? um we've looked at it but solar technology requires a lot of land to produce few megawws and so uh we never looked at the large larger sites like
that. Um you know it might be I think it's about 5 acres per megawatt. So for a facility of 20 megawws you'd need 100 acres to produce the same amount of energy out of a solar project. >> Okay. Um, and I know you'd mentioned
that there is that 26 kilovol kilovolt line connection proposed and it is shown as an overhead electrical wire on the site plan um to Main Street. And then you'd mentioned that there's a potential to connect to the PSNG site across Bohemis the substation site. Um that's
not shown on the plans. >> The the 26 kilovolt line runs into that substation. So, we just have to connect to that right next to our facility and it it may run in there or it may run past it. So, >> it's we're not guaranteed to to
necessarily be connecting into that site. >> You're just connected to the utility pole on East Main Street. Okay. I misunderstood. Um, so essentially if PSENG is is the prov electricity provider, utility provider on that poll, you are you are essentially a customer
of PSENG. >> I will let Joe Brown answer that. He worked for PSENG, so I think he can answer it a little better than I can. >> Okay. And is there have you at uh in any of your the sites you've worked with or you know industrywide is there ever any
um issue in connecting um these facilities from an from an electrical or electrical sorry a power demand um perspective that the utility may have an issue with that may need upgrades or things like that.
Typically, yes. Um the you well PJM does an interconnection study. So in this case, PJM would go to the local utility who was PSENG and ask them to do a study to see if the power that goes into that substation or
anywhere else in the region might need some additional equipment to be able to support the energy that's generated by our facility or any other facility. But one of the requirements by law is they must a utility must give
an applicant like us access to the grid. >> So it's not a question a legal question. They can't say no we don't want you. They must provide access. The question is what is the impact? And I mentioned earlier that when we took a look at a lot of different sites,
New Jersey in particular compared to many of the other sites in PJM has very very high interconnection costs. And the transmission system consultant that we used looked at the potential for upgrade costs as well. So when we go to PJM,
they may take six or eight months to do a study and come back to us. Well, our transmission consultant was able to do that as part of their scope when we went to them and said find these substations and then look at the cost of interconnecting a facility of let's say
100 megawws and what they did was they looked at 100 megawatts 80 megawatts and they ramped it down until the interconnection costs were actually manageable for the economics. So that is a key component >> and and those interconnection costs are
footed by your facility or by PSENG or the rateayers >> in PJM it's footed by the owner of the facility that would be us. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Um and and I understand you know PJM or in in this case your expert undertook that analysis. Is PSNG involved in any
way in that analysis or they as any No. And is there required to be any kind of um cooperation with them besides the fact that they can't say no to a you know a customer they have to figure it out. Um are they involved in coordinating any of this at all? >> No, it's all coordinated through PJM. So
PJM will go to PSENG and say it's your system, you do the study. >> Okay. And in the case that um I'll say almost 15 years ago the PSNG
substation right next door actually shut down due to supertorm Sandy. What would happen in a case like that for a facility like this? Um you know where the sub the substation is down. Can this facility still operate? You
know barring you know the actual transmission lines not going down from the storm. Could this act as a generator if the if the PSCG substation was down as was turned off? >> When we connect to that wire and if that wire goes into the substation and it
turns off, the electricity should flow in the other direction on that wire. But I think it's a very complex analysis to really be able to un to um answer definitively and and Joe may have some better knowledge of that. >> Okay. And I only bring that up because I
know you brought up the more the more typical scenarios of when this is useful to both, you know, financially for for, you know, the investment, but also to, you know, the consumers and grid resiliency, but um I
think that that was a major event in New Jersey that led to conversations about grid resiliency and we have been seeing more and more frequent storms um and catastrophic storms uh in New Jersey and that's when power outages um are, you
know, bigger deals. That's when everyone remembers, not just when they have a brown out for three hours in the middle of July. So, um I just wanted to to bring that up. Um that's all the questions I have for right now. >> Thank you. >> I just had a quick question. Um >> on this site, do you have the capability
to increase capacity from 20 megawatts either either through additional batteries or upgrading batteries? Um, I think our application to PJM would limit it to our actual um, output. So, I think we'd have a
difficult time going to PJM and increasing it. There is enough um, room on the site to um, put 30 megawatts of batteries in there, but interconnections to PJM are very expensive and 20 megawatts is a cutff point. So if you go
above it, it incrementally gets much more expensive to connect to the grid. So we reduce the size down to 20 megawatts. >> Excuse me. Was that uh reduction done since the initial application or? >> No, that was done
probably when we first started looking at the site a couple years ago. >> I saw somewhere in the plans potential for expansion. potential for >> expansion at the facility that I cannot locate. >> Um these batteries do over time uh lose
their ability to um charge and discharge. So typically the room that's on the site is to replace batteries with other batteries to be able to maintain your um 20 megawatts and 80 megatt hours together.
And Joe can answer that a little bit better than I can, I think. Thank you, Jason. I know you're you're new to the table here and I don't want to put you on the spot. So, is it okay if we move on and not ask you to comment on this testimony or did you have some questions
that you're comfortable asking? >> I do have some questions I'm comfortable asking. >> You're gonna have to speak into the microphone though. >> I do have a few questions and actually the board planner teed one or two of them out nicely. So, I I don't have an objection to to asking a few questions.
Um, I should probably be sworn >> not for questions, but I'll swear you both anyway because sometimes questions turn into testimony. Won't you both please stand and raise your hands? You solemnly swear that any testimony you may give to this board will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, help you God. And just
for the record, would you both state your names for the record? >> Jason Klein, >> Katherine Sman, board planner. Okay. So my understanding is in New Jersey the the decisive
site selection criteria ends up being proximity to a substation and you've decided that since the connection the interconnect fee is not a linear fee
that you found where your ceiling is that you're comfortable with. Um would that be accurate? Yes. >> Um, these best units, you said this is the first one of these you're doing that's a a standalone that's not
associated with like for a solar field or how many of these best units have have you been involved with um in behind have you been involved with any best
units in behind the meter installations because that's I I guess the category. And I'm assuming since this standalone is the newest being developed, most of these units have been associated with a
solar field or something like that behind the meter previously. Would that be true >> or accurate? >> Not not necessarily. There are a lot of standalone units particularly in California and um and in Texas. And I think Joe understands that market very
well because he sells to all of the developers, not just to us and I think he can address it better than I can. Um we've been involved with um uh besides Rockland where we have um three projects, hopefully a fourth coming on
pretty soon. Uh this would be our second most advanced project. We have one in Virginia where we have uh um received approval, local approval to move ahead. And we went through much of the same type of testimony. Uh we had Leonard uh
do the safety reports for us and the uh emergency response plans and um we're in the process of putting together a decommissioning plan now uh on that project um with the possibility we'll may have to put up a bond for that as
well. So that's our most advanced project. >> Okay. Um, are you aware of other best projects in New Jersey by other developers similar to yourselves?
>> I'm familiar with a project in Seville that is um was developed by a utility out of Ohio, a private arm of a utility. So it's privately owned despite being developed by a utility.
>> Um you had you've had a number of comments about uh peak. So you know the idea is to charge the unit at low rate uh time of day off peak and then return that
during peak. When is peak considered? because you were saying you were treating sol the best solar time as non- peak but my understanding is electricity demand is often
noon middle of the day like that. So when is peak or can you can resolve that for me? >> Yeah. Yeah. So peak typically occurs twice during the day and depends where in the country you're located, right? But typically it's in the morning when people get up out of bed and they start
cooking and preparing to go to work and whatnot. Uh and it's in the evening when they come back from work and they turn on their air conditioners, their stoves and that type of thing. Um so those are the two peaks typically during the day,
but uh again that varies uh based on your climate and your location. And Joe, I think can speak to that a little bit better than I can. Makes sense. Um >> I think um in the interest of time because everybody here is wanting to
take a break >> and I would like to let Mr. Seeker complete his testimony if possible. So unless there's some really important question you have to ask right now I'd ask you to hold them. >> Thank you. And with that, let me open
the um the meeting to the public if they have any questions specific to Mr. Seeker's testimony that he provided. I don't see any members of the public right now who would like to ask a question. Do you have any closing remarks, Mr. Speaker? Um, just that we
respectfully submit that the U. Best facility will be a positive addition to Bridgewater and an important step towards New Jersey's um, clean and resilient uh, goals. And with that, I think that concludes my testimony. So,
thank you very much for your time. >> Thank you very much. So let's take 10 minutes for a break and I'm going to adjourn the meeting for 10 minutes and we'll reconvene in see it's now 8:47 9:47 did
But I would like to reconvene the meeting and call this meeting to order. And Nancy, if we may, can we have a roll call, please? >> Chairman Kulak >> here. >> Mr. Woodelli >> here. >> Mrs. Amin >> here. >> Mr. Franco >> here.
>> Mr. Fresco >> here. Miss Rose here, Mr. Geski >> here, >> Miss Wisman >> here, >> Mr. Vesio, I'm sorry, Mr. Kuchi >> here, >> Mr. Mcnella >> here. >> And our professionals are all here.
>> Very well. And it looks like we have a new face at the podium >> and he's going to introduce himself as >> Joe Brown, >> the famous Joe Brown. So, welcome. Thank you for coming. And you are >> let me let me >> we had the word first.
>> Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> So could you please describe for the board uh your background and the nature of your involvement in this project? >> Yes. So I'm a I'll start by saying I'm a
12-year resident of Warren, New Jersey, mechanical engineer by trade. I've spent 28 years in the power industry and half of those have been working for public utilities. Duke Energy which is in PJM the largest public utility, Con Edison
right across the river in New York City and PSEG which obviously is also in PJM and close to the topic of this. Uh my role in this project is I am selling the equipment. I work for Trina Solar and Storage, which is a manufacturer of
renewable equipment that is supporting this project. I would like to take some time to kind of go over I heard my name a lot of times when some questions came up. I believe my testimony might answer a lot of those questions, but then again, I
I'll repeat any answers or uh readress any questions that I did not answer. >> Okay. Before you do that though, uh you mentioned that you're involved in the sale of the facil of the batteries system uh to Rockland APV. Are you also involved in the operation and
maintenance of the facility and have you been involved as as well in addressing its relationship to the adjacent power grid? >> Yes. So, Trina will manufacture this equipment. They will operate this equipment. They will maintain the
equipment from a maintenance perspective, corrective, preventive checks, and they will remote monitor this uh site while it's in operation, while it's in standby mode 24 hours a day. That will be part of their contract for 20 years after the site is fully
commissioned. >> And Trina is based where? >> Uh California, Fremont. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Um, so I think just to kind of simplify things overall, there have been a lot of questions on beneficial use,
PSCG as a customer, PJM. I'd like to just take 30 seconds to kind of explain how that all works at a very high level. So one one big thing that I need to make sure is clear is PSEG in this case acts as a distributor of the power. They do
not set the price. They do not make money off that. They get paid for shipping the power to different places. They're like Door Dash. They don't make the food. They drive it to wherever it goes. They're not even involved in making the food. John's company will actually make the generation and then
PJM sets the price. So, a lot of discussion earlier was on beneficial use potentially for the community on pricing. Battery storage again has two main focuses. Lowering the cost of energy and providing backup power. I just have to back up a little bit
because I may have misheard you, but he doesn't generate electricity. >> Uh, so he'll charge from the grid and then discharge and when it discharges, it acts as a generator for those four hours discharging power into the grid.
>> Yeah. So, you may be the expert and I know you are. >> Okay. >> But when I hear the word generate, I think of somebody making power. >> Okay. >> Not releasing power into the grid. So, >> okay. Releasing power into >> misusing it. let me know. >> It's okay. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Um, so essentially what would happen is like everyone has been talking about the peak are in the morning and the evening and the price gets very low during the middle part of the day at noon when the sun is the highest. On average, the price of power in New Jersey is
something like 10 cents a watt. And you don't need to know what that overall means accurately, but in perspective, in the middle of the day, that price will drop to an average of about two cents a watt. Sometimes it's even zero, which means this project, these batteries will
be charged for free because there's nowhere else for the solar to send its power. In New Jersey, there has been no coal plants. They were all shut down. I used to work at some, no new gas plants since 2012. and no new coal plants since
the 70s. So the only new generation that can come in is really renewable power, meaning wind or solar. So that presents that difficulty, which is why you get a zero or two cent price of power at noon.
Later on in the day, that price, which is set by PJM, not by PSCG, not by APV Rocklin, that price will jump up to something like 30 cents a watt. And at that point, everyone's paying 30 cents a watt. The consumer, the industry,
commercial, whomever. John or the this project can then discharge and get paid 30 cents when they only had to pay 2 cents or maybe zero cents. And that's how they make money in the project. The benefit is because these batteries are being
installed and charging and discharging, that 30 cent now does not have to come from a gas plant in Newark or a project out in Pennsylvania. It can come locally from something that charged cheap. And the closer you are to your generation
source, the cheaper it is. So instead of the 30 cents that you would have paid for that plant in Newark, you're now paying 20 cents. So the company is making money based on that spread of how much they cost to charge and discharge.
Whereas the local consumer in the area where the energy is being dissipated is saving money because they're not sending it from an old less efficient source that didn't charge from free that's miles and miles away. It begs the question though as to when energy is
coming into the battery storage battery energy storage system. How do you know where it's coming from? Um you don't have a blue wire for wind. Um what would be a good one for solar? Maybe yellow and then some other color
wires for coal which doesn't exist anymore or oil or natural gas. Can't tell them no apart. It's all energy. Is that true? >> That's absolutely correct. >> So, it's like a big bucket of water. >> Um, and that that's all the sourcing together. And whatever cup you dip in to
pull out, you don't necessarily know where it comes from, but you know what constituted that big bowl of water. Yes. And in the case of New Jersey, specifically in these nodes where like Bridgewater is about 65% of their power at noon comes from renewable sources.
>> Sometimes it's a little higher, sometimes it's lower. And it's not to say that that cup of water you're scooping out came from the renewable source, but that bowl in general, twothirds of that is coming from renewable. And generally speaking, that means on average 2/3 of what is charging
the battery is going to be renewable. >> Got it. >> If that answers it, >> it does. Thank you. >> Okay. The second main reason or advantage for batteries, as was kind of spoken about before, is backup power. And I know there were a lot of questions on um you
know how it's beneficial if it starts immediately. Um and I kind of equate it to you know living in New Jersey. I went through hurricane Irene. I went through hurricane Sandy. We lost power. We had young kids. So my wife said we need a generator. Where do you think that
generator is? It is not 2 miles from our house. We put it 4 feet from our grid connection going into our actual house so that as soon as the power is out there is no interruption. and we make sure that generator is going to kick on and we're going to have power right away. The closer you are to your source
of power, the more reliable it is. There are many reasons there are power losses. We talk about hurricanes, but it's not just hurricanes. There are power plant trips. Those plants in Newark and Pennsylvania, um there are floods. There
are trees that can fall on wires. Sometimes, even if no mechanical failure occurs, but it's a very hot day and there's just not enough space on the line sending all the power in from Pennsylvania, you can have blackouts. Under all those scenarios,
the local source of power mitigates all of them. And that's why it can act just like your GenerRack at home as a backup power source. And even though it's only four hours, that gives time to either, you know, cut the tree off, replace the
line, get that power plant back up, pump the water out, whatever it is. It's not a permanent solution like a generator, but it also doesn't have any emissions. And unlike the generator, its main purpose is lowering the cost of electricity. Like I spoke about earlier,
this backup generator function is kind of a secondary function which essentially comes as a free service which obviously I had to pay for my Generrack so I did not get that for free. Um that kind of acts as a dual benefit outside of that. So as far as if
it powers Bridgewater or Somerville, you can't specifically answer the question which homes is it going to power other than on average it's about 20,000. I think Bridgewater is about 16,000 homes. And because it's being generated right in this area, that power in one of those
emergency situations where it's lost is going to generate to the closest proximity first. So, it's safe to say the closer you are to the generation source or the power dissipation source of this project, the better chance you are it's going to power your home when something 10 miles away is going to be
affected and it won't make it there. >> Yeah. But you you mentioned that the primary purpose of this facility is to lower the cost of electricity. >> Oh, primary benefit. Sorry. >> Primary benefit. And I know that you sell this equipment and obviously you're
very good at it and this is I'm sure part of your sales presentation and I appreciate that. But as a primary benefit to lower the cost of electricity when I've got a for-profit business profiting from that and I've got a variety of
other factors intertwined in this whole business proposition and I don't think that stands on it on on on the merits of what you said. >> Yeah. So maybe I'll rephrase that. It's a primary benefit to the community is that obviously the primary benefit of
the system is also making money for the owner but that 30 cent to two cent spread is essentially split because the the company that owns the project is making money and the community is saving money by that local generation source
without coming in from afar. So this primary benefit to lower the cost lowers the cost for both the owner to make money and the local community. Albeit the owner is making a little more money than the community is but at least it's shared. >> Understood.
>> Okay. Um next thing I think there were some questions on here um as far as uh why not uh on a solar plant. Um it makes absolutely total sense to have batteries at a solar or at a wind plant except as
I think John said earlier a solar plant is 5 acres per megawatt. This project is 20 megawws. So uh I worked at PSCG there is a solar plant in Seaw War in New Jersey that is 100 megawws I'm sorry is 20 megawatts and it is 100 acres a
little more than actually. That kind of land is not very available in urban areas. um for reasons just other than you know their homes, they're more urban, their stuff there. So unfortunately those urban areas are also
the places where the highric nodes are to offset that 30 to 2 cent difference and where the power is needed more because where there are more people there's more power needed. Most solar and wind plants specifically of the large scale are out in Pennsylvania or
in Texas. They're in the middle of nowhere where there's a whole bunch of really cheap land to put all these panels or these wind. And unfortunately, that's not where the people are. They have to usually send it hundreds of miles to places like Bridgewater where all the people use that. And that is the
main reason why you don't always see batteries at those facilities because it's not as beneficial to the end user for that. It's not to say they don't exist, but in in the case of developing urban projects, solar and wind are
usually not part of that equation. >> And are you um suggesting that Bridgewater qualifies as an urban area? >> Uh much more so than the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania and Texas where those large wind and solar plants are. >> Nobody would dispute that. That's for
certain. But when we look at the character of Bridgewater, it's not something we describe as an urban area. So for your purposes, it may be urban. For the township itself, from a master plan perspective, from a planning
perspective, um it is something which we look to preserve as a suburban quality of life that we've enjoyed for some time. So, as we look forward toward toward your continuing with your testimony, let's just differentiate your
definition from ours. >> Got it. I'll refrain and uh rephrase to say a community with residents. Most solar and wind sites are not within communities with residents. >> Fair enough. >> Again, in fairness to Mr. Brown, he's not a land planner, so I don't think
he's characterizing Bridgewater as a quote unquote urban area. uh from a us from the land planning perspective that you and I might use to describe Bridgewware. In fact, you heard Mr. Brown's 12-year resident of Warren Township probably fall in the same
category. Uh and again, people in Warren wouldn't call themselves urbanites. And I'm sure same goes for for Mr. Brown. But yeah, it's a matter of relative population density and land values. We know that uh to put a facility like this in branch on bridge in Bridgewater on
100 acres isn't going to happen. >> Understood. Thank you. >> So the next thing I wanted to testify about is what these batteries actually are, how they work, what they look like, and that's why I brought toys in front of us here. So essentially, this is one battery cell and there are 5,000 of
these in a container, which is 20 foot container that this is a model of. So I think what we should do is mark those two items as exhibits. We have a exhibit marker. >> And Mr. Pantel, please speak into the microphone.
>> Yeah, I'd like to mark those two items >> since you referred to that first. Is it A1? >> Yes. Well, first to the the first one, the battery. It's the identify that for the record, please. And that will be exhibit A1. >> Trina's battery cell is exhibit A1.
>> Okay. Is that an actual bat size of a >> No, it is a model replica. Same weight. >> Same weight. Okay. So, we mark that as exhibit A1. And then >> Thank you. So, I'll mark that as exhibit A1 with
today's date. put that sticker on it and what we will do for the board is we'll leave we'll get a a photograph of that for you for your records. In fact, we already have submitted to uh Miss Propes a photo of this exhibit A1 and then
>> you share them with the board. >> We're looking I think at the ones on the screen I don't know but >> sorry I received them um around six o'clock this evening. So, they were um forwarded for the website and they're
downloaded on the server. So, I'll share them with the board tomorrow. Okay. And then identify exhibit A2, please. >> Right. This is a model of a Trina battery container which will be identified as exhibit A2.
Mhm. >> And that container is part of a larger system. >> Yes. This is one 20 foot container, standard ISO. There will be 20 of these on the project. >> And would you say standard ISO for the layman?
>> Uh 20 foot by 8 foot by 8 and a half. >> The ISO part is where I'm losing. >> I'm sorry. It's a standard shipping container with international standards. I got it. >> So, it's the size of a container that you might see >> on a truck or >> on a container truck on a ship or on a container truck on a
>> How many will there be? >> 20. >> 20. >> How many batteries in each >> 5,000 >> of these? You have 5,000 in a container. So, what if one of the batteries goes dead? How do you
>> get to? >> Uh, so, excellent question. So the whole design process from Trina when they manufacture this is to separate and isolate and as a result of that everything is replaceable and accessible. So you could ask why don't
we just make one big battery that's the size of this 20ft container. It's not as safe. It's not as maintenancefriendly. So in fact there are 5,000 of these and we put 104 of these in one drawer which we call a module. Think of it as a big
desk drawer. Then we have going to throw a lot of numbers at you. Eight drawers in a cabinet, which is the size of a closet. And then we have 12 cabinets in one of these containers. And that is all done specifically with safety in mind. As you may know, there have been battery
incidents in the past. And if a battery catches fire, it's called thermal runaway. That means this battery has enough fuel that it can sustain its own fire and does not need oxygen. Because of that reason, we make 5,000 of these in this container. And in between each
of these cells, we have a fireproof bladder barrier between them, everyone. And then we test it, not just us, with a third party UL, US-certified uh testing agency, so that we force this battery to catch fire by putting a
heater on it. And when that happens, we verify that the barrier protects it so that it does not propagate and catch the next battery on fire. Then we do that same thing with an entire module, that drawer, to make sure the next drawer doesn't catch fire. Same thing with the
cabinet. And then the same thing with the entire 20ft container. We purposely set the whole thing on fire to make sure the one next to it does not catch fire. And under all these tests, we shut off every safety system inside the container
itself to make sure there isn't a potential failure of a fan not kicking on or some other function to make sure that under all scenarios if one battery goes bad, it does not propagate to another battery, to another drawer, to another cabinet, to another container.
All that is done intentionally. It is more expensive to do that. But by doing that, you isolate it. So, it's not the entire energy of a container that's catching fire. It would be only the potential of one cell, which I should mention has never happened with Trina in
a 12-year history for 250 projects that we have. >> You use the word fireproof. So, fireproof to the layman means that it's impossible for it to burn. >> True. >> Yes. It's a fire barrier that's rated up
to a temperature hotter than what this cell can emit. >> But the cell can burn. >> Yes. >> And you purposely start them on fire by applying heat. >> Yes. >> And how would you describe the process by which you create the fire?
>> Uh, we just stick a heater on it and bring it up to 900° Celsius until it goes into >> Celsius. You had to throw that in there. >> Really, really hot. >> Yeah, I got that part. way hotter than it would operate under a normal scenario
to force it to catch fire in order to actually see if that barrier prevents it from going to another cell. >> And that barrier that you're describing in your tests has prevented that one that you set on fire from uh starting
the other ones on fire. >> That's correct. >> Mr. Widley had a question. >> So, back to my original question is so you basically just pulled the drawer out and replace the battery. >> Yes. Yes. There are doors on the outside of these containers that you can open and then pull the drawer out and then you could access each one of these
cells. >> Will it identify which battery is no good anymore? >> Yes. On each module there's a thermalouple and an actual uh EMS um a control board that identifies where the fault is occurring.
>> But we take the entire module out regardless. >> You just pull it out, determine which one, pop another one in. Uh, usually we'll we'll pull it out and put a spare in and then we'll send it to the lab to isolate and and do sorts of tests. >> What's the average life of one of those
A1 exhibit? >> It's about 20 years if it's cycled once a day. And that average life really means to get to a point where it has 60% of the life of what it started with, not
down to zero. So, just like a battery you have in your flashlight, if you stick it in your flashlight and never use it, it will degrade. But if you use that flashlight every single day, it'll degrade quicker and eventually it won't work anymore. Lithium ion batteries are
very similar except that they're going to work um that brightness of that flashlight will remain just as bright as it was until the battery is depleted. So in this case at 20 years you'll have 60% life left in the battery.
>> You replace them at that point. >> At that point you have the choice of replacing it or just adding more batteries next to it if you wanted. In the case of this project most likely we would be replacing it. >> So if everything goes as planned at year
20 it's going to be a very expensive maintenance. >> Yes. at at year 20 they should have made their return and at that point these batteries can be sent for recycling or they can be sent for some other beneficial use that is I'd say 95% of the time that is
what's done with batteries at end of life >> what's the defective rate of the batteries >> uh I don't have the exact number but it's less than 05% but I don't know how much less >> I mean because you could buy a whole back pack of batteries and sometimes >> that's right
>> get one that doesn't work and you're sitt there for an hour figuring out what >> No, that's right. So, um, we make the batteries ourselves and part of the process is they go through a rigorous testing program and part of that testing program is cycling it up and down to make sure it works and that it does not
degrade prematurely. So, when when we speak about what the defection rate is, that's what's identified at the factory, not necessarily what's placed in the field, which is a much much lower rate. >> Okay? So if you had take a scenario let's say you have one of these
containers and one of the areas had a issue >> we're not working it was some mechan whatever issue >> would the plant or the facility still work at the same capacity without interruption. So, the
remaining containers will still operate as planned, but they will not last as long because one of the containers we will shut down and perform maintenance on whatever the issue is. So, you'll still get 20 megawws, but instead of 4 hours, it
might be 3 hours and 40 minutes. >> Okay. So, you will lose a certain amount of capacity. Yes. You will obviously at some point have maintenance issues. >> Yes. Same amount of power, less duration for that power if a container is down. >> You said you manufacture these yourself.
>> That's right. >> In the United States. >> Currently in China and Southeast Asia. >> And when you say Southeast Asia, just sort of abroad or do you have some countries there? >> Uh Thailand and Indonesia. >> In Indonesia. Okay. And so being
manufactured over there, quality control is managed by whom? >> Trina. >> Trina. employees that are here or that are there. >> Uh the qual quality is being managed by the shop in the country.
>> But because we are a US entity, we have our own QAQC people that will visit and perform inspections from the US side to verify everything is working in accordance with US permit and requirements, which are the same requirements for this project as they
would be for any public utility like PSCG or K Edison. All the same code applicants for NFPA 55, all these different codes I could mention which Leonard could probably give more specifications on, but all the standard codes that are required for operating
facilities at power plants under fire prevention, >> right? And during the process of shipping, how do you ensure uh that it's not damaged over the long distances that it has to travel? So the containers themselves have shock absorbers and
sensors. And when they come in, the first thing we do is we check to see if there's any distortion on the containers. We check those sensors to see if they experienced any, you know, crane dropping it or bumping it with a truck or whatever. And then once they arrive on site, we do a test before we
energize it to see if all the current and the electrical conduits check out before being energized. So when it's shipped, it's effectively inert. >> It's at a 30% charge rate of the 100, which is a standard for international
shipping code. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So, um, a couple things. It looks like there's like a door handle on this, but from what it sounds like from your description, this is serviced from the outside. >> That's right. The original battery
uh sites that were installed 15 20 years ago were walk-in style where in order to maintain and service the batteries you would enter the container yourself and go in. This is actually one of the ones that had the incident in Arizona was a walk-in type. Um one of the things I
wanted to bring up were the differences between there. So the first is we make sure no one can walk in because we fill the entire thing with batteries. So there's no access point to enter it. The second thing is um the battery chemistry that is made is significantly less
volatile. Without getting into chemical engineering 101, the old batteries that were installed in the US from say 2012 till about 2018 were called NMC which was cheaper, more energy dense but much
more volatile. Since then, everyone in the industry has shifted to LFP, lithium iron phosphate, which is an industry standard now, which is much less volatile. 95% of all the battery incidents that have occurred in the US are on that older chemistry of 2019 and
before. >> So 5% >> 5% are due to three main reasons. overheating, overcharging, and um what's the third one? >> Human error.
>> No, no. Luckily, human error is not one of them. Uh overheating, overcharging, and water intrusion. >> Right. So, that's perfect. So, I see six racks. So, that means there's six doors on one side, six doors on the other side. >> Right. So, you know, I actually have one
of these containers I use and I know how cumbersome it gets and heavy the door. So to my point of human error, >> let's drop this in a full flood zone and tell us what's going to happen when we get 8 ft of water or 3 ft of water or whatever. So the batteries are sealed on
the bottom. But if for some reason water does get into it, there are sensors on the bottom top and in the middle and it'll immediately trip the battery so that the battery does not operate in a discharge or a charge function. It'll then send a message to us uh through the
remote monitoring system if no one is on site and then someone will come to site to identify what it is and the battery will remain dormant, not operating until that happens. >> So if somebody leaves the door, I can't imagine there's sensors on the door. So if somebody did happen to leave a door,
you know, guy's servicing it, leaves the door open, runs to his car to text his wife, but that I guess is potential for something silly like that, right? Uh what's the scenario again? >> If somebody leaves the door open. All right. But >> Oh, it it will not operate with the door open. >> Okay. All right. Good thinking there,
too. Okay, great. So then it is it's it can be immersed in water and it'll it'll continue to run while it's in water actually. >> No, no, it will not continue to run. >> Okay. >> There are sensors that if they detect water intrusion, they will trip the battery, >> right? But that's water intrusion. What
about if the water is outside? I mean, if there's a foot of water, I assume it's water sealed, right? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If no water gets in the container, it will not. The the one discrepancy is there is a air conditioning to keep the batteries cool and that air conditioning intake is on the upper half of the container
intentionally so that um if water gets in the intake that will also trip the unit, but that would have to get up to the halfway point for that to occur. >> So, while you're at it, then just tell us about the you know there's been obviously we're cooling you know heat is is a big issue with these things. So, are you going to tell us there's some
redundancy for heating if it overheats kind of thing? Yes. Um, so this is liquid cooling which is much more efficient than air. But again on that liquid cooling system there are multiple sensors where if anything isn't checking out uh it will trip the unit immediately. In addition to that we have
sensors throughout the container that detect any uh temperature excursions, smoke or any hazardous gases. Under all cases no human interaction is needed. it'll immediately trip the unit not cannot operate and will not send a
message immediately from the remote monitoring and someone will come to site that has been trained in order to do it. Just one other thing I wanted to mention one big key thing in uh some of the previous events where that uh local fire responders were not trained properly.
Trina requires we train all the emergency responders that are in the area for this site before it is installed. We do it in person and we do an annual refresher so that it has it. Uh we met with the fire departments for both Somerville and Bridgewater and went
over these. U my compatriate Leonard here would be able to give some more um accurate details since he can speak more to the fire prevention. >> Okay. So my my last question is even though it shuts down whether it
overheats if there's water intrusion if somebody tries to breach it it's going to shut down but it's still energized. >> Yes. >> Right. Okay. I I if it is after it's noon charge then yes the the majority operation of the plant is it stays
deenergized and then when the sun starts shining power gets cheap it charges during the day and the bigger peak is the evening peak it discharges at night and remains at 0% energy for the majority of the night until it gets to that charge the next day
>> we were talking earlier about the fireproof membrane that you have that protects the cells from catching to an adjacent cell and you haven't had any failures there. But waterproofing this is not it is not waterproof
and it's potentially where because of sight selection in a flood zone where it's known to have flooded many times. >> Okay. >> What protection do we have to offer? I'm not asking him to testify to the flood zone. I'm asking them to testify to what
happens if it's flooded. >> So if it's flooded and water does not go above uh the midway point to the container. So that would be about 4 and 1/2 ft plus it's a foot off the ground. So that would be if water would have to get about 5 1/2 ft in order to get to
the intake of the system where it could intrude into the system at which point it would detect it in the air conditioning portion not in the battery containment. that is a separate isolated compartment and water inside the a HVAC the air conditioning unit would trip the
unit in that scenario >> and the HVAC unit excuse me which is used to cool the the batteries is not connected to the there's no you're saying it's somehow separate from the batteries I'm I'm not
>> uh it's isolated from it so no air or water even if I flooded the HVAC that air that water could not get into the battery compartment >> because it's liquid cooled. >> Maybe I could show you here that there's an isolation barrier here. These are all
the batteries where you see the light. This is the air conditioning portion right here on the end. >> Yes. >> And this is there's a hard sealed wall in between the two so that water cannot get from one area into the other. Yeah. So, if the if there were a substantial
flood, not if, but when, then your unit would shut down because the air conditioning unit would sense that there's water infiltrating it. >> That's right. >> And it would prevent it from by your construction, it prevents it from going
into the batteries themselves and creating that um dangerous situation. >> That's right. And the batteries only generate heat when they're operating. So if the HVAC was to fail, it'll trip the unit so there can be no more heat generated.
>> Okay. >> Preventing that overheat mechanism. >> Right. And I I know you're I know you're not suggesting this in in a flood prone area or may perhaps you were actually implying that might be the case, but
bear in mind that when Craig Styers does testify, you'll hear that we're well that the all of these batteries, which by the way are foot above the ground, are well above flood elevation um by ma matter of feet. So, let's just
hold off on any test. That's right. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately, I don't have details of the site elevation or anything. >> That's okay. >> Um, how are you stacking those 20 trailers? >> We're not stacking them. Um,
>> 20 20 trailers laid out flat on the ground. >> Yes. Uh, that's done intentionally again for safety. If there was an event to occur, which has not happened, but if there was, heat and flames go upward. So, for that reason, we do not put anything on top of these batteries. We
would put them adjacent to each other. And I believe one of the layouts that can be shown here will show. So, these batteries will be next to each other in an adjacent scenario. Maybe if we can get the screen >> go. So what we'll what we have on the
board u will identify as exhibit A3 which actually shows the layout of those containers which are not stacked. Again Craig Styers as I mentioned several times will be testifying to that but it helps put the the plan in context I
think. So yes, this A3 is labeled. >> So the containers are freestanding adjacent to each other in some cases with some space in between them as it's depicted on this drawing we can't see anymore, but it's it's there somewhere.
And there is no building in which they're enclosed. >> That's correct. That's done intentionally for safety reasons. Okay. So, exhibit A3, which is on the board now in front of you on your individual monitors, is the colored
landscape plan sheet a A sheet seven of 10. >> And I could look, if you're looking at the orange blocks, each one of those blocks is one of these containers. >> So, they're they're definitely not.
So the drawers only open on one side. >> That's right. Because you can put another one right on the other side to open out. They're mirrored versions. >> I have a quick question. You're going to have 20 containers and each one holds 5,000 of those. Are you talking a
100,000 >> and they're put in one at a time? >> Uh these will all come fully assembled. So this >> get here. >> Yes. This will arrive fully stocked. Nothing has to be done with it. The only maintenance that has to be done when
these come is there are desicant bags which just keep everything dry on the inside that have to be removed. Apart from that, all other work is done in this section over here that does not access the battery compartment. >> Okay. So, and just for the record, when you say these come fully assembled, you're referring to
>> the container. >> The containers. >> Um, it comes assembled, he's saying. So, you're there. So basically there's going to be 100,000 battery cells, storage cells on site. >> Yes. >> In one container. >> No, one 20 containers. >> Yeah. 5,000 per container and then there
are 20 containers. So it's Yeah, it's about about 100,000. what we've just put on your screen now and on the board we'll call exhibit A4 which is a photo of a taken by Trina of
a single uh container uh you'll see it's uh >> I can explain this this is one battery container uh in Texas and you can see it's raised off the ground a little bit and right next to it it's kind of hard to see but there is another container
adjacent to it right next to it on the other side. >> Your toy there looks more colorful than one by quite a bit. >> I wanted to show they actually exist here in the US instead of just by model. >> Is that how these are going to be mounted on helical footers like posts like that or a pad?
>> So a geoteex survey would have to be done to determine it'll typically be one of three methods. Helico pile, standard pile or concrete slab. Which one is used will depend on the geotech survey, but all three are perfectly fine and normal in today's standards.
Once these things arrive from China, I'm assuming on a ship. >> Yes. >> How do they get from California to New York? >> Truck. One of these can fit on one truck. >> And they're tested when you get here. >> Yes.
>> We were talking about the potential for things happening and you seem to be well ahead of us. What about extreme temperatures as which we've experienced most recently with the cold and all the Teslas are at the charging stations because their battery either won't hold
a charge or dissipates it too quickly. What about your stuff? >> So that HVAC doesn't just act as a cooler but also a heater. So, in the times when you get extreme cold, they will keep the batteries warm and
available to operate at full capacity and performance, as well as keep them cool when they're operating on a summer day. >> They're rated up to 55° C, which I don't have my math, but way hotter than we will get here in New Jersey, >> right?
>> And 30° C, which is way colder than we will get here in New Jersey. >> 30 degrees. >> Yeah. Negative30 degrees Celsius. >> 30 degrees C. >> Thank you. What's the constant draw on these c these cabinets? How much power
do they consume just to exist? >> The aux power. >> Yeah. >> 20 kilowatts per cabinet. >> Per cabinet >> under max heat condition. And that's basically almost all the HVAC. >> Yeah. >> All the other load is very small just to keep the safety systems operational and
running. >> Then what does it take to charge it? So if it's 20 kW >> output, you're So you have a 100% efficiency. >> Oh, no. Our RT is around uh I think it's around 92%.
>> So you don't have 80 to 100% problem that everybody else has. >> Most is lost through that transformer and the inverter coming into it. The actual battery efficiency is around 95%. But charge that battery to whatever you
charge it to 95% or 100%. It takes how much more power to then it then it's going to put >> 8% 8% more. Yeah. >> So if it's 100 megawatt hours I needed 108 megatt hours charge it discharge it
100 based on the losses of the cable systems. >> What happens when some youngster decides to tag it >> like run into it? No, >> spray paint. >> Spray paint. Graffiti. >> Oh, from a mechanical standpoint to the
battery. >> No. From what it's going to look like for the rest of us to look at. >> Oh, >> you wash it off. >> It's a It's a standard coating. I couldn't speak to what the maintenance is for cleaning it off from the technical side of that. Um, it can be
repainted. And uh by the way, you'll see from the site engineering that this site is very secured number one to help prevent that. Number two, um it will be u the facility it's the site
is highly screened. Uh so you might just see the the very top of these containers peeking over a fence. Uh, so you're you're not going to be seeing that the whole side of that container is not going to be exposed to public view. It's
going to be a very screen site and very site >> and I'm going to assume you can't plant around it. You can plant around it. >> Well, the we do have a landscape plan that we will address with you. >> Well, Craig will take care of that. But um,
>> from a technical side, you can plant within one and a half meters from it. of 5T. >> Thank you. >> Are you >> Yeah, you will see too our landscape plan has a lot of perimeter uh buffering
with landscaping. >> So, Mr. Chairman, are are you also going to testify about the other panels, the breakers, all the inverters? Are you going to are you >> Yeah, I'm providing all of the equipment on site except for >> Oh, I'm sorry. I meant are you going to
talk about those or should we question ask questions about those other components as well the control structures? >> You can I did not focus on the inverters or the medium voltage transformers because there's no inherent risk of any thermal runaway um like there is with the batteries um it's also a smaller
component on it. Essentially the batteries emit DC power and our grid operates on AC power. So for every four of these batteries, we have an inverter which switches it from DC to AC and then a transformer that sends it to the
correct voltage to connect to that 26 KV line. >> Okay. So looking at the plans I'm looking at, which seem to be different than the plans that you have there. So I think somewhere along the way the plans changed because the uh the breaker was on my plans was outside. It looks like
now you moved it and nested it. It's not a big deal, whatever. But okay, so let's talk about this proposed control structure then. What's the story with that? Is that walk-in? >> Uh what proposed control structure? >> The um opposite Well, what is this? The
whole this >> Oh, I'm sorry. That's that's beyond my scope. I'll have to defer to uh >> sorry, >> John or someone else for that. >> Okay, fine. All right. So then the only other thing is then is is that's it the breakers which is the inverter. >> Yeah.
>> We're not supplying the brake boxes. Okay. All right. Great. >> I think the other relevant thing is you mentioned them several times. There are sensors >> are supposed to identify whatever the issue is. There are no humans manning the site. Is that true or false? >> Correct.
>> So no human beings on site unless they just happen to be there. And um so the sensors have to identify the issue. They communicate that issue to a control center somewhere. >> Yes. Remote monitoring center in North Carolina.
>> And that's something that you own and maintain as Trina. >> No, we contract that through a third party US company called FlexGen. >> Okay. So it goes to them. They say there's a problem. What do we do? What do they do? So the emo well initially
the the system will automatically trip itself on its own before it even it doesn't require someone that's remote monitoring to do that. But when that person realizes that happens and it sends them an alarm, we'll send a technician to the site that's been trained in order to identify what the
issue it is. Is it safe to open a door? Does it need to have that? Someone that's trained to do that. Until then, the site remains vacant >> and the entire plant, the entire G storage system shuts down or just that one unit, >> the one container.
>> And if it if if in the event the guy who's got the sensor that sent him the message said, "Oo, it's shut itself down." But there's an issue with those sensors, he wouldn't know that, >> right? So we for that reason >> we blink here. I'm just trying to find
the because you you gave us the safety of the battery and you talked about the fire membrane and you addressed a lot of issues and we're looking for what the potential failure might come from if it comes at all. >> Yeah. So those sensors that they detect
all three of those things and there are I want to say like 20 of them throughout the container. So if for some reason there is a fire event that occurs over here and that for some reason sensor is not working, there's another one three feet away that may not pick it up the
first second it happens but would pick it up the third second after it happens. >> Right. But that appears to me to be the issue. The communication system they use the sensors communicate to the center in North Carolina. Now,
>> uh, so all all of the sensors cause a trip regardless of the remote monitoring. The North Carolina facility just monitors to determine not just a trip, but also how it's performing. If it is not having as much energy or if
even if it's not an alarm, but there's elevated temperature for some reason on one, they do a lot of what I'll call preventative maintenance, not necessarily corrective if something trips. That's the main purpose of the remote monitoring center, looking for trends and data analytics to determine
if something is coming close to a failure before it happens. >> Okay? And if if it happens, they those guys know we're we're telling somebody else now. >> Those guys will know immediately and we'll send someone that's much more
local than North Carolina that's trained for the site to do it. most likely a Trina personnel or someone that Trina trained for that specific thing in this area. >> Right. So, as I look at what you're describing, I've got to rely on the sensors to shut this thing down and you
have some redundancy built in there. I've got to look at the that system to communicate to the people in North Carolina that hey, we shut down because something happened. It's beyond their scope. So they send somebody out and in
the time that's lost maybe we have a problem that we can't then control. And that's honestly the fear that you're face that people have of these facilities in general because you only have to do a cursory internet search and you find
things that scare the living daylights out of. Now, some of the things that was addressed in testimony, older style designs, different batteries, different times of installation and so on, but a lot of it has yet to be um discovered
and we'll talk more as we go forward, but that's what people are worried about. Where's where's the failure going to come from? And right now, that's where I'm seeing it. I don't know what you think. >> Yeah. Everything is designed for instantaneous trip without relying upon
any human to do anything. And even if something was to occur and that trip was not to occur, we have proven through the certifications that more than one battery will not propagate to another. Conversely, one drawer to another drawer
to a cabinet to a container. So, you know, an uh flame proof barrier in between them is not something that has a failure mechanism like a fan that doesn't kick on or something or a HVAC which you know could crap out or have an issue. So, the
idea is to have u a safety mechanism in place that doesn't need to be actuated and then put a whole bunch of sensors on, then put a whole bunch of other fire retardant systems like aerosol and then make sure you're monitoring for preventative maintenance in the future
for those things before it becomes an event. You spoke earlier of thermal runaway and that the >> the heat being generated essentially produces gases that are very harmful. Um, and I'm not certain what happens to
those gases in the event because it's not now we're not worried about it burning per se through the fireproof little thing that's around it, but the gases themselves. >> And since they're toxic, >> how are they addressed? So we've
analyzed from both the cell all the way up to the container what gets emitted from a thermal runaway event even for the entire container itself. About 88% of the constituents are common hydrocarbons. So carbon dioxide, carbon
dioxide, hydrogen. The other 15% are elements that are all lighter than air. Common elements but still flammable elements like methane and ethane. But all those elements because of their weight will raise rise quickly and not
hover down near the ground. So um the emissions coming off of a full container thermal runaway are mostly harmless the 86% of it hydrocarbons. The other ones, although not toxic, are still flammable
and could present a danger, but their barriers set, which Leonard can testify to as to what they are, and because of their gaseous weight, will very quickly rise into the air, which is why we put nothing above them. >> And when they they rise to the air,
you're saying that, and I'm trying to put words in your mouth. >> That's fine. >> That they will dissipate into the air. They won't be carried by the winds to the senior center. It's only a couple of thousand feet away. >> Yes, it'll dissipate very quickly. I believe I'll defer to Leonard. Somewhere
around 200 feet is the safe barrier. >> Yeah. All right. I guess right. It's 200 feet. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Um I have a question about the uh container. You're talking about having 20 of those containers on these four acres or three acres site. Um do they
have any like lighting on them or blinking things that you're going to be seeing from the outside? Uh, not on the container itself. There are some customers that have put lighting on them and there are some customers that have put lighting >> just the lighting the container itself.
>> No, no, the container itself does not have any lighting. >> Thought you had like blinking lights on 20 of these and drive. I find it quite >> No, there's no lights at all in the container unless the owner decides to put lighting around it separate from what the container needs itself. >> They come over here with 911. And correct. My other question is you might
have answered it. I don't remember. What are the containers made of? uh standard carbon steel, but inside they have flame retardant barriers in between another layer of steel before you get to the actual batteries. So,
there's two plates with a flame retardant insulation barrier in between them, which acts twofold. One, thermally insulated to make sure the batteries don't get too hot or cold, and two, an additional layer of flame retardency. So my question would be then based on the
steel it's made of if there was a big fire in the area would they melt? >> They wouldn't melt. Uh they would experience um what's called oxidation or stage three creep where it would become a little flaky not melted just become a little crusty. Um we did our full scale
burn test and posted videos which we could probably share in an exhibit to kind of go over what it looks like when that happens. But the container itself structurally still remained intact even with a full every cell in the container burning. No uh no melting or anything,
just carbonization. >> About 20 containers with 100,000 batteries in >> Yeah, we we ignited the whole thing. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> One question for you. How far away is the staff that's going to come and take care of this when something goes wrong? So I don't know if
they've identified for the COD for this project is still a year and a half out or so. Um in most cases it's local to the state and I believe that would be the plan here for New Jersey. Could be Trenton, could be Newark, it would be someone that would be local to the state
typically within an hour I should say an hour max obviously depending could be five minutes or whatever. >> I have a question on the communication to the center. How does it get if the sensor senses something
by what we where you have a dialer or is it a uh >> um >> phone line a hard line or >> I'm not sure what the connection is that we use for I can get an answer for you for that though but I'm not sure we can
certainly get that >> follow up on his question my my uh thought was what if we have worst case scenario uh another hurricane Sandy comes comes up the whole east coast, wipes out your monitoring station in North Carolina, affects the batteries
here, and you're one hour away. Guy can't get here because roads are closed and lines are down and and has that been like gamed out. >> Yeah. So, the first thing is if the North Carolina remote monitoring facility goes down, there's a backup
facility that can be used, I believe, in China, but still a backup facility. um if roads can't be accessed um locally to address the site due to flooding or whatever, the site will trip itself. We can also actuate a a trip from it. We
can operate it completely remotely to do whatever we think is safest. So if we cannot address the site, we can shut the plant down. However, if there are blackouts in the area, the batteries are the best thing to use for generation for that backup.
when you were mentioning a little bit about the construction and the security of that container um in a wider sense and we'll talk more from a a site plan perspective about protecting the site itself. So not the
containers per se but the access to the containers because you don't need people on site so it pretty much stays locked up from your perspective. Um, the only people who will have access are authorized service personnel that you've
contracted with or what have you. Um, power plants, substations, generation facilities, the grid itself are all potential targets for terrorism. Uh, our enemies are all over the world.
Um, some that we don't even know about. I don't know how you protect this kind of thing from somebody shooting at it. I don't know, attacking it. It's not like Star Wars or Star Trek, you know, there's no force
field around it. >> Um, have you given any thought to that? >> Yeah. And actually, it's not the first time I've been asked that question actually quite many times. So the first thing is uh a standard caliber bullet of just about any even from a rifle will not penetrate the container itself. If
per chance something is powerful enough to penetrate the container and go into the actual cell itself, it does not cause thermal runaway. How do I know this? We've tested this by firing bullets into the cell itself outside of the barrier and other puncture tests. There's a series of 30 tests that we do
with these cells. Um, it's the favorite part of everyone's tour when they see the factory where they get dropped from 50 feet, they get a forklift run into it and all sorts of stuff. And in all cases, thermal runaway does not occur. The cell is no longer usable, but it does not result instantaneous
flame event >> from a battery, right? From a bullet, but a kinetic weapon obviously could be different, right? >> Yes. If it if it could be exposed to a certain amount of heat, you could force it into thermal runaway. That's how we do it when we test it. But in order to
do that, you would have to access inside the container. And even if you were able to do that, uh, forcing one cell into thermal runaway will not propagate into the one next to it. And you're only affecting this one cell as opposed to the entire thing unless you somehow figure out a
way to get the entire battery container, which is insulate. Exactly. >> Yeah. Can I just one question? Did you say that this is has a direct connection and it's monitored from a location in China as well? No, it has a data dump that that
data dump gets sent kind of over an email server as a backup to China. The active 247 remote monitoring is North Carolina. But because the factory is in China, that data dump gets emailed uh for how the system is performing. Cannot
be operated in any way or function even by um the remote monitoring facility. It only monitors. I just want to make sure you say >> I should also mention even though you know these batteries are made in China or Indonesia or Thailand, the PCS which
is actually connecting to the grid is using power electronics a company that is Spanishmade and they have facilities in the US that can actually make it and then the computer program that's operating it to actually run into the grid is USmade from that company that
has the North Carolina remote monitoring facility. I have a question. How many batteries does this one unit hold? How many batteries does it hold? >> 5,000 of these. >> One of those uh units. >> Yeah. 5,000 of these will go in one
container. >> Okay. So, we have a couple of housekeeping things. We're nearing the end of our aotted time for testimony. Um, in your presentation, did you have more to go? >> No. Well, actually, one additional item
I would like to cover, and I don't think it'll take very long, Mr. Chairman, which is to have Mr. Brown testify about the fact that there's no difference in the operation and maintenance of this facility that will be owned by a private entity as opposed to one which would be
owned or one which >> you're kind of testifying for him. But before you do that, um what I'd like to do is to give you this option because our board professionals have not had an opportunity to ask you questions. The public has not had an opportunity to ask
you a question. And even though I wanted to make sure you could complete your presentation portion of it, um, but then ask you to come back at our next meeting to entertain those questions and to perhaps do what Mr. Pantel >> that was mentioned anyway.
>> That was already mentioned so we have it for the record. >> Okay. Okay. Nancy, will we get these revised drawings? >> That's not the drawing that we have. >> Well, Mr. Are those your drawings?
>> So, do we have those? >> The revised drawings have been submitted and they were recirculated by uh Nancy. But if there's any discrepancy there, we can talk to Nancy and get that straightened out. >> These must be from the original. >> Yeah, that looks
>> previous. >> But what's the date on those? These are from their original. >> So the LA the revision date on the set that I have is July 23rd, 2025. >> Glenn, is that you have
>> Yeah, that sounds correct. But the revision date on yours, Mr. Fresco, is what? >> September 04. >> September 24. >> Yeah. So that's not a that's not the latest. The July 25 date is the latest. >> Yeah. I think there were three
iterations of that plan and the plans that were received by the new board members were only the most recent. >> Oh, so >> yeah, maybe mine are >> but I'm just looking at what you blew up on the screen and it's that last revision date for that exhibit. I think
it's looks like uh February 25 July 23. >> Well, not July 23. Yeah. I have one that stated in Denver 41525 >> that's on the screen. >> Yeah.
>> What sheet is that? Is it possible for us just to agree on what the most recent version is and make sure we have a copy of that for our next meeting? >> Yeah, absolutely. And we did submit, as Nancy just indicated, uh the requested
number of the very latest plans, which apparently did go to all the new board members. So, we'll get more of those if needed. But those the latest plans are the ones dated what >> July 23. we're looking at on the screen that says
well you probably just put rendering prepared 41525 on that exhibit only right >> but you're when you go back to your revision dates your last one is 22525 and the last revision date on sheet seven that I have is 72325
>> so can you render the last page to 25 >> okay this way we're looking at what you're asking us to look at 100% 100%. Um, the other thing I have, Mr. Aller, is a copy of Mr. Brown's resume marked as exhibit A5.
>> I'm sorry, you said his resume. >> Yeah, his resume. >> Okay. Just in support of the testimony that he gave regarding obviously operation and maintenance of these facilities and relationship to the power uh grid. >> Okay, that's A5.
>> A5. Sure. >> Yeah. >> What we'd like to do is continue this meeting, continue this discussion at the next available date. Mr. Brown will be returning so we can finish asking him
questions. The board professionals can ask questions. Um, but Nancy, I don't know what our calendar looks like and when we can ask them to come back and if their schedule were permitted. The uh um next available which would be
after another applicant would be April 14th. >> And if they were to come back April 14th, there's already something scheduled for that. >> Solar landscape is scheduled. >> So they would be after Solar Landscape.
>> The April 28th meeting has >> I'm sorry. Say that again. The next meeting after that, April 28th, would not be available. So, we would be looking at May.
>> You want half a meeting on April 14th, Glenn? >> Uh, yes. I think we'd like to at least make some headway. If we can get half a meeting, I'd appreciate that. >> Okay. So, then for members of the public, this meeting is being adjourned. Um, it will continue on April 14th in this room at 7 p.m. with no further
notice from the applicants. I wanted to ask you about notice. Are we okay with with the way things are? Because when did when was your original notice sent out? >> We did renotice once already. We re we renoticed for your meeting at the end of
25 to which with the understanding that you would reschedu at your reorg meeting in January. Okay. We're not relying on ancient noise. It was the end of 25. We did notice we were asked to do that by Mr. and Ms. Propes. So, I think we're okay on that.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Do need, excuse me, need an extension of time through the end of April. >> Uh, Glenn, >> yes, we we agree to that. >> 30. >> Okay. >> April 30. Sure. No problem. >> So, so for clarity sake, we're going to
come back April 14th and split that meeting time between two applicants. The 28th is not available and the next available date is sometime in May. >> Correct. >> Okay. Uh, Katherine, you seem to have a question.
>> No, I just I thought you were saying after that hearing there'd be another available date in Oh, but that is a changing circumstance every day that there are other applications that come in for completeness. So, >> well, I'll ask for one other thing too if we could. >> Sure. >> Uh, because with half of the meeting on
April 14th, it's probably not realistic to expect we'll conclude given the the pace that we're going through here. So, is it possible for us to be put down at least on the calendar, not for notice purposes, but to be put on the calendar or another date so it doesn't get we
don't end up in August. >> Sure. >> Have multiple applications right now in completeness that we expect to be deemed complete. So, those are going to need to be scheduled. Um, that's that's difficult to do. But Katherine, what are
your thoughts on >> It's impossible to tell right now if this applicant would continue on the 14th and maybe the other application drops off and adjourns, so they may get the whole night. There's a lot of things that could change between now and April
14th. So, I'm hesitant to reserve another date thereafter because we have legitimately 12 other applications right now in the hopper um that are under completeness review. And I think it would be a disservice to you know reserve not only the 14th but another
date and I say that out of fairness to all the applications that are that come before that you know apply to the township um including residential applications so homeowners um smaller applicants that are not yet scheduled. So, I'm a little hesitant, but I'll defer, you know, Rich and and the board
on what they'd like to do. >> So, if we were to find a date that we can just put a pin in, so to speak, can we do it? >> We have there are times that we do have that flexibility with this number of
applications that are pending completeness determinations. It's that's not uh realistic. >> Okay. So then what do we do instead? >> I think it's heard on the 14th and they carry after that. We do have other
applications that are coming up at our next meeting and our meeting after that and our meeting after that and we're not reserving dates for them. So um again out of fairness I think they they have determined that the 14th works. Um and when they do hear that night then we'll find a continuing date for that. >> That's the best we can do. That's what
that's in fairness to all applicants that have continuing. >> Thank you. So yeah, and maybe we can be in touch with Nancy as we get closer to that date and see if maybe something's possible. If it's not, it's not because I understand what Katherine's saying. >> And that's fair. >> Okay.
>> Would like to accommodate all of our applicants in fairness and at the same time um since you've had the opportunity to begin testimony and we'll have an opportunity to continue it. If we could, we could put it in, but we're just going to have to wait and see. Right.
>> Okay. Any other business for we >> um before we second that, I just have one other question. We're going to let Mr. Brown take a break if he wants to, but Nancy, what's on the agenda for the next meeting?
>> The next meeting is Cafe Amelia on 224. >> Cafe and Okay, Mr. widely. >> I move that we adjourn. >> Do I have a second? >> Somebody second. >> Second. >> Thank you, Mr. President.
>> Thank you very much. This meeting will stand adjourned.