##VIDEO ID:FmorURzuKB4## He arched. Good evening, everyone. It is 6:01p.m. Think we're ready to go. We are at the City of Cape Canaveral. City. Council regular meeting at City hall council chambers, 100 Polk Avenue, Cape Canaveral, Florida. Tonight's agenda, January 21, 2025, is before us. I call this meeting to order. With that. Council member Willis, would you please lead us in the pledge? Of the United States of America. For which it. Under. Undertake injustice to Earl. Thank you. Titty clerk, please call the role. Council member Davis. Council member Jackson. Here. Mayor pro tem kellum. Here, Mayor Morrison here, and council member Willis here. We have a form. Thank you all for being here, and thank you all for joining city staff and the community. And happy New Year. This is our first meeting of the year. And we are approving the agenda as written or with amendments Council. Are there any changes to the agenda we'd like to see? Can we do reports up front? Because. Often we don't get to it, and I have had multiple updates that I didn't. Get out. Could we pull it like. Prior to the items for discussion. Okay. Council member Jackson is proposing that we move the reports. Which is the last real item that we actually take up before. What was it, council member? Before. Right after the consent agenda. All the time or just. Tonight. I need to give some updates so that council is aware of some things I'm working on so that you all have a heads up. And at the end of the meeting, we run out of time. So I just wanted to ensure. That we were able to do that, and I cover some of these things. So council would be aware. After the consent agenda or before. Public participation. So we have a presentation tonight. Public participation. We go to the consent discussion and reports, and I say before discussion. Okay, so after the consent, before discussion. I'll second it. If you don't mind, make a formal motion. I make a motion that will move reports. Right before items for discussion. I'll second. Okay, you got a motion by council member Jackson, a second by Mayor Pro. Tem Kellum. To amend the agenda. To move reports right after the consent. Agenda item. Three and before discussion, item four. Council, are there any discussion on this? I would prefer to keep it at the end so that. We are encouraged to move along. And have plenty of time to do reports at the end. But I'm fine with whatever council wants to do. I would agree. Because if there's people here that are for the EV chargers or something, like that. I think they would want to have it done so they could get out quicker. Or if there are any here for items for discussion. Okay. It's one of the shortest agendas we've had to me, I think. I'm fine with moving it up. I saw the city of Titusville did that at a meeting. They moved reports up front. And for the same reasons, and I haven't seen how it goes, we get to watch. Other cities and learn. And I think they really appreciated it. I think it's a great night to get to. At least try it and see how it goes. At least for tonight. And I know you didn't. Say long term, but. I'm okay with moving reports up. And. There any other discussion? Seeing none. City clerk. Please call the vote on amending. The agenda. Against. Or. Four. Against. Thank you, city clerk. All right. So with that, are there any other amendments that we'd like to see the agenda. City attorney. Do we need to formally do another vote? With that? Approve the remaining part of the agenda? Or is that sufficient? Sufficiently. Thank you, councilor. Are we okay? Moving on to the next item. Just for over communicate. We'll do items one, two, three reports and then do four and. Five. All right with that? We have a presentation tonight. And. By the National Weather Service, Melbourne office to present the City of Cape Canaveral with a storm ready certification. Representatives are here with the National Weather Service. Melbourne office. Good evening. How's everyone today? My name is Will Ulrich. I am the warning coordination meteorologist for the national weather service. Office down in Melbourne. National Weather Service is responsible for issuing all of the watch, warning and weather advisories that you see on television, on radio, and you might receive on your phone through the wireless emergency alert system. But we're also in charge of a very important program called the Storm Ready program that I am here to recognize the city of. Cape Canaveral as officially storm ready tonight. So as the warning coordination meteorologist at the National Weather Service in Melbourne. I am responsible for the planning and execution of our agency's severe weather awareness program, which focuses on both educating the public and mitigating death, injury and property damage as a result of hazardous. Weather here in east central Florida, and that's where storm ready comes in the program. Helps arm America's communities with the communication and safety skills needed to save lives and properties before. During and after an event, and it is perhaps the most important piece of the severe weather awareness. Programs puzzle it is designed to recognize communities that have reached a high level of severe weather preparedness the program started back in the late ninety s in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and since then has expanded to over 3000 counties, cities, universities. Colleges, military bases, governments, entities, commercial enterprises and other groups. And as of today, thanks to the efforts put forth by your city's employees within the resilience division, the city of Cape. Canaveral will be added to that list. Your city's staff has worked hard to meet the goals of the storm ready program. Some of which include developing an emergency operations plan for all hazardous weather, identifying multiple ways to receive and disseminate whether information and warnings to the residents of this city identifying and securing shelter locations. As well as participating in severe weather training, tornado drills and weather preparedness. Weeks like severe weather Awareness week, which is this coming up in just a couple of weeks at the beginning of February. As well as hurricane Awareness Week, which is often late into the month of May and early June. But let's keep in mind. That even. The best laid plans are often put through the wringer during an emergency. And our community here, particularly here in Brevard county and the City of Cape Canaveral. Is no stranger to weather hazards, whether that's severe thunderstorms or tornadoes or floodings or hurricanes. You name it. Mother nature, if you haven't been able to tell. She's kind of ticked off lately, and so it's important to mitigate and be prepared for whatever she has. To offer, but it shouldn't end here. Preparedness is everyone's responsibility. And you? Too, should consider your vulnerability and risk to hazardous weather and to develop a plan if you haven't already. We prepare because of the 1998 and 2007 Central Florida tornado outbreak, which. Killed collectively 63 people in the middle of the night. We prepare because of a recent historic tornado outbreak that occurred with Hurricane Milton and led to the deaths of seven down in St. Lucie county. We prepare because of the 1998 Florida wildfire season which burned over 500,000 acres of land over a two month period. Roug. Roughly the size of Brevard county. We prepare because of hurricanes like Milton, Irma and Ian, which highlighted. Our community's unique vulnerability to flooding rainfall. No community is stormproof, but programs like storm ready and others. Can help save lives. So I appreciate your time this evening. Again, I want to send a special thank you to your resiliency division, who's worked with us close over the past. Couple of years to determine your readiness as a community here, not just. Of the government, but also of your residents as a whole. I have brought a sign that we hope will. Be proudly displayed right here in this government building that recognizes Cape Canaveral as the next. Storm ready community. So I thank you for your time this evening. I appreciate it. And if we could get a photo of some members who want to be a part of this, I definitely would. Appreciate. Council if you want to come down. You want a group photo or. Yes. Thank you very much. I did. That. Well, that was very nice. Thank you. Proud of that. Thanks to resiliency team, the entire city staff who are part of making that happen. That will conclude the presentation for tonight. We've got public participation if anyone would like to. Speak. Some of you already have. Please fill out a comment card here and provide it here. To our lieutenant, and we will make sure that. You're heard, I do have a few cards. The first one I have is Mr. John. Benton. I was waiting for the light to turn on. Thank you. So, anyway. I'm here for a code reduction hearing. John, I appreciate you noticing that. If you don't. Mind. Do we have a light? If not. I can. There we go. All right, you're good to go. Mr. Minton. I'm here for a code reduction hearing. I'm coming in here about 60 council. Meetings and you guys won't tell me why I couldn't defend myself in that. Code reduction hearing. reduction. You took my money, I'd sue you. Since I was in violation and you charged me $75, I figured, the way you owe me. Is $75 for the last ten years. And I told you in the very beginning with randalls. I'm going to come in here and tell Kevin Mann comes in and apologizes. Everybody and the police for lying to him. For four months. John's living in his warehouse. All he had to do is ask the cop next door. Three wouldn't do it. She didn't blame my renter would tell her the truth. Jesus said so. I asked to read the code enforcement officers. The second time she came there, I said, do you know, Kevin, man. She just looked at me stupid, wouldn't answer. To interview with the culture and leisure board, and my concern then and now is Nancy Hansen and courts that are used by tennis players and bookkeball players. I wanted to just bring to your attention. The really dangerous. It used to be just an eyesore, but now it's getting to be dangerous, cond? I used to coach little league. I used to work in concession stands. I think they're great things, but they have a limited season. And from what I understand, this doesn't bring in any revenue to the city of Cape Canaveral last year. At Nancy Hansen, the tennis courts. Had 9000 visits. I mean. People 9000 times someone checked in at the desk and paid money to play tennis or pickleball in those courts and. It's grown tremendously every year. They brought in about $25,000 to the city of Cape Canaveral. And it just seems to me like. If the part of several people talking tonight about the conditions at Nancy Hansen. Hopefully everyone's been over there to take a look at the corsair. In bad condition. So I know there's money out there, been budgeted for resurfacing, but. That's been pushed back. I guess another year. By the Culture and Leisure board, apparently. That's accurate documents online. There was money. For? I guess there's money to be spent. Hopefully you're going to spend it. I really hate public speaking, by the way. But if I don't speak up, I'm going to feel bad about. Not speaking about last culture and leisure board. There was talk about resurfacing. I think Molly mentioned 3000. $400,000 because I know these guys didn't mention amount, but I think that might be what you're. Looking at, and she mentioned a company called. 90, which is top notch out of Orlando. I was really happy when she mentioned that company because they did them at my complex, and we're very happy with that. So basically, it's the same thing as these. We need resurfacing. They're playable now, but like Tom said, They're past their life. Can we get through one more summer, maybe two? Would be great. If we don't go past two summers, I think we'll be all right, but I'm not. from all over, and we go there and we see how beautiful their courts are. And then they have to come and deal with air courts. Also. There are other places for us to play that are better and nicer. And for the money. You have to pay to play here. You could play someplace else nicer for the same amount. Of money. And possibly there's a risk that you could be, as you delay resurfacing. The courts, you could lose some of the income that you're enjoying right now. If you do do the courts rather than the concession stand, you will get money back for doing those courts versus the concession stand. It's just money to a concession stand with nothing. is. A hump that's in the back of the court and you go to hit a. Ball and you hit the hump and you fall and you hit yourself. It is a liability. For the city. You shouldn't have anybody playing on the courts if you're not. Going to maintain them properly, so you need to think about those issues too. They do bring in a lot of money. As I said, I've only been here a short period of time, but I do know. That I love playing tennis. I love playing in Cape Canaveral and. I hope to see good improvements on those courts. Thank you, Addie. Donna whitezel. Hi. I'm Donna White. Be about the time frame. I do like the launches. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, that completes, I think, all the cards I have. If you intended to speak or filled out. A card and please come forward. Don't want to miss anyone. And if anyone who. Is participating online. I want to confirm. Do we have the live stream going? Just want to make sure. That. It's working. It looks like we have some folks online. If you would like to speak. For those of you. Who are luggings and restorations for leak repair and destructive investigation for the 1 million gallon reuse tank. And authorize a city manager to execute the same council. Anyone like to pull these or approve? Them. Altogether. I'll make a motion to approve the consent agenda. I'll second. Got a motion by council member Willis and a second by council member Davis to approve the consent. Agenda. Council. Are there any other discussions? On. This, and I just want to clarify. Okay. Yes. Any other. Discussion. Were not heard by counsel prior to us looking at cips and determining where we were going. To allocate funding for the year. So as the meeting continued, On. They discussed the fact that. The end of the year meetings weren't as important because the budget was already set. And I have a suggestion that. We look at potentially getting their ideas and input. To staff actually discussed it in that meeting. Using the concession stamp money instead of the tennis courts, but I have concerns with that. Because we have several buildings, including Nancy Hansen, that has worked, that needs to be done. And Nancy Hansen as we all saw in one of our earlier meetings, When council member Willis brought us photos of the electrical panel, we have quite a bit of work. And. It's really kind of disappointing that as we built the community center, we didn't. Think about that concession stand, which could have been rolled in. It literally says that local governments. Can make their own rules about this and that the developer would have to deal with to make sure that they are in code with any local flooding worlds. So. I got this information to Brianna so that. She could look at it because. We don't want to alleviate people from having. A responsibility to stick with precondition to where they don't have to stick with. Precondition flooding. Because that means if I elevate a lot and the water runs. Off, then I'm not responsible. And it's literally probably just a checkmark on their CAD program. There's quite a bit of information. There's even two notes within that. Information saying Pervius concrete and turf blocks are not considered impervious surfaces for certain conditions. But that's a state requirement, yes. Four things in the same St. John's river water management issue. But the city also has its own stormwater management section of the code in chapter 19 and chapter 90 requires that post development. Peak rate discharges not exceed predevelopment rate for a 25. Hour, five year, 24 hours. It's a good catch on the plan. Thank you. Thank you. Council member Willis? Yes. Just to follow up on council member Jackson attending the business and economic development and CRA advisory board. They were working on their calendar, and since the cRA. Crate. But what I had asked of the bedboard was to meet as often as they can before. We start into the budget season, and council member Jackson brings up a good point. They should be meeting in December. Or November. Space Coast League of Cities Directors board of directors meeting in Palm Bay this month. And while I was there, I got elected. To the east central florida regional planning council. Board of directors. Well, thank you. But hopefully we can do something for the city and let our needs be known. But unfortunately, I've got to represent all of Brevard, not just Cape Canaveral. And Zach Ikolts and I attended. One of their meetings dealing with. The ad. Right away. We are targeting the concession stand for money. And I understand that tennis courts need to be done, but this is not something that just happened. In the last year. They've been neglected for a while, and now we are at the point where. They need to be done right away. When we originally the planning of the c five building. Did not include. A concession stand. One was taken away. Along with the bathroom, but reconstructed and never happened. It took a while. This is something that should have been addressed a long time ago. And. We spend our cre money on shiny new things when we don't take care of the things we've had. Have. And I've been saying that since I've been on council, where you have. So many awesome things in our city that. Need maintenance and upkeep. And to just generally have the basic amenities for our residents. But we move on. We kick things down the road, and now the tennis courts are in dire need. Of. Resurfacing. I think that the Nancy Hansen building itself. Is in dire needs. Of money. And again, we want a small town field. We want families to feel like they can take their kids down there and play. All that is important, as well as tennis and pickleball. It took a long time to get the concession stand under the CRA funding. Because. It was always a general fund thing. And I said the. Concession stand was blighted. It was horrible. It needed to be knocked down, but we needed to replace it. We've lost opening day ceremonies at the place. Different. There was nothing for them to look at. I think it's real important for them. To. Help us with the budget and to bring their ideas before we even start the budget. So I agree with that. And that's all I have for right now. Thank you. Thank you. Council member Davis. Thank you. My reports? Yeah, I watched the bedboard meeting. Thank you both for being a part. Of it and remember it as you described Mayor part Tim Kellum. It sounds like we're getting in front of that now and got some good ideas. To try and strategically align that with our schedule and the budget. To utilize. Their recommendations. We took a facility away. And so. That I think. Is something I want to maintain and stay interested in. And as far as getting a good number, on what it would cost. I don't know why. That doesn't necessarily have to be the concession stand. There's money is potentially in other areas. Sounds like we've got 115,000 already, so whatever that difference is, I heard 300,000. Is that the quote? Molly, would you mind addressing that? Within a year. The exact same place that we're at now. With the depression in court number five. And the cost to resurface was that the 115 we were estimating. That was about the 115? Yes. Okay. Resurfacing and then a repair underneath court five. Which is not what's being recommended by the professionals. And I remember learning that. But a reconstruction. Did I hear 30 years of life is what we would get the last go round. We got 50. And when did that court really start? I heard a year or two left or next summer. Is kind of. It needs to happen now. No. Later than group. Thank you. So what kind of liability are we looking at with that court having that issue? Is it worth having that court, even in service if we've got a liability issue for trips and falls. That would be an attorney question. Idiot. It's a recreational facility. The city has a duty to maintain. The facility. In good order to the extent that there are any defects or damage that may cause injury. You could possibly expect a claim, having defended several tennis court claims in my career. Thank you. Am I hearing that you cannot shut that court off until we get it repaired to the extent that the court is dangerous. Yes, sir. May I suggest that staff gathered together to meet on this and see if there are. Other projects that we could possibly identify to make up the funding to try to advance that and bring a recommendation forward to council and get that bid RFQ or RFP out sooner rather than later. And then also 90, I think, is the name of the company. Ask them what their recommendation is. On the sports surface, tolerances for safety, for playability, and let's get it measured. Find out exactly where we are and make our decision on keeping it open or closed based on that. Okay. Molly, could you also let council know? And fix. Additionally. In the court's close. The revenue. Is it about? 25,000 HanSeN and we have how many courts? I'm sorry, there's five. Tennis courts. And now we are up to ten pickleball courts. H tennis court comprises two. Pickleball courts. If we have to close off court five, we'll lose all of court five for tennis. And we will lose half of court, five in terms of pickleball because the north or the south side, they would still be able to play. Unless, of course, the depression expends. I'm just worried about public safety. In this case. Because we literally had a group of people coming here and tell us and speak to the fact that. They didn't feel like it's safe and that it's an issue. Thank you. Thank you. I have a question. Is there any idea on what the downtime will be? To reconstruct tennis courts? I have no idea. That would be. Once we get a clear directive on how to move forward with this, we'll. Be able to flesh out a lot of details that are unknowns at this point because we also don't know what's going on underneath court five. It's a daily, day to day risk management issue. To the extent that any city facility. Needs to be repaired. Then. It needs to be looked at. And presented to the council if a budget decision is needed to fund the repair. And one last comment. If I was a tennis player and I knew that. The courts were deficient and I was a regular tennis player. And knew that there were problems. Why would I want to go play on that court? To risk an injury. Why would you do that? We'll start Molly by finding out what the playability tolerances are and getting it. Measured, and we'll make a go no go decision from there. As far as closing that court. Any other questions? Thank you, I think. That was largely. I plan on meeting with Representative Soroi at some point. Either before after to emphasize the importance of those. So, at a minimum, what are the big things? That we really want to see. If there's a good way to do that by emailing. City manager or city attorney. And trying to get that or if you, I think, plan on being there. I'm not. Sure exactly what the rules are. I'm just saying I'll be there to represent. Anyone who may not be able to make it. I have an update for you on that. The meeting scheduled for Wednesday the 29th has been canceled. Yeah, I got that email. I'm also registered to speak. So am. I. So I've been on the east coast of Florida my whole life. Worked with the Department of Transportation in Tallahassee, the Department of Environmental protection with the city of Sebastian and also a little bit. In Dallas doing private sector consulting for smaller municipalities. I have degrees from Florida State University in Texas A and M, and I've amassed a pretty good collection of experiences, and I really look forward to serving as your senior planner, so thank you for welcoming me on. Thank you. Go, Knowles. Go, akis. Yes. Welcome to the team, Esther. City clerk. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I've been involved in municipal and county government for more than 30 years. I also worked in government in the UK. Primarily. As a city. Item three. Item three was approved. To the consent. Okay. Thank you. If you wanted to rescind or you felt that you needed. Okay. Thank you. All right. In our reports, which is item number. Seven. I just wanted to revisit this because. We did increase the hours for the EV chargers, and it's been a month. Also. We're at past a year point since the upgrade to the level two chargers. So I thought this was probably. A good point for us to just touch base. On the program. And what we had here. So. The total once again. Zach always gives us very good report on this and has a lot of detailed information, things I want to point out, we spent up front $111,000. So one of the things that. I included. Well, actually, let me go over here because there's a page that we referred to and. It says there was a spike or an increase, but I don't really see it in. The graphs. Yes, in the graph, which was attachment five. Okay. I don't really see that as a spike. And this is on the agenda item, page two of three. It says, q four, 2024. Subsequently saw the program's high single day of revenue on record as $159. And when you look at this, There really isn't a spike that I'm seeing on this. The spike that we see. On that attachment five. If you look. That's literally the Christmas holiday. And the reason we saw a spike is because tourists use it. And that's when our tourists start coming in. So, literally, a lot of people that are in the rental business went from no one here. To their units. Were now booked. So the increase is definitely not, I think, what we would consider for a year long standard or as far as seeing a spike, it's really more tourism related. So we might expect to see. A spike in income this year. Between from that December period out to about mid April. But regardless, we're way off on our numbers of what we thought we would potentially bring. In. Now, having said that, The market has had a lot of changes. And has slowed tremendously. And hybrid market has picked up. So true evs have slowed with the hybrid market picking up. And to illustrate that point, In my agenda item I included for you all as the council. An article because literally, hearts is now. If you rent. One of their evs. They call you during the week and try to sell it to you. So. If you want a Tesla, go rent one. That's a great thing. Way to get a Tesla because. They're literally trying to unload their evs. And there are many places doing similar things, so we're seeing some trending here. That was not applicable potentially before. And that is important for council to know. We had originally during that workshops, but I spoke about return on investment. Because when you look at whether you want to pay for something, you should look at that return. On the investment, your Roi. And basically I'll be dead. And we'll have to upgrade it to level three or four or five, because technology will keep moving. So there's no way we can get our return on any investment we put in it. At the rates that we're seeing now. And. The city manager can also discuss this as well because. The port. Installed. Are those level three chargers? City manager? I'm not sure what level. Yeah, I think that they're level three, but I'd have to check. They installed them in their parking garage and due to liability issues, they have disconnected them. Because. Of fire hazard. So. The peak season for our snowbirds because there are a lot on the roads right now due to the snowbirds. But you see in the report, during that vacation week, that's who's. Using it or our tourists. And when it's not snowbird peak season due to the minimum six night rentals. In the city, located all throughout the city. The rentals are really down. And the hotels have the chargers there for our cruise passengers. So that's something to consider as well. Because. The numbers aren't showing that we're really having. A ton of usage when it's not a peak snowbird, period. Thank you very much. Yeah, I think that. This report is. Referencing. The item seven, the informational item linked to this discussion item. That's really helpful. So the total revenues 4000. From January 21 through December 31 of last year. That's the entire 2024 total program. Revenues $4,582. In which three. And then they break down where that money came from. Right. The 3963. Is charging revenue, and then there's some idle fees. $619. Interesting. On. The total time recorded 3539 hours, or 147. Days. If you look on the first page of that agenda report item, that's where the total cumulative information is. Number seven. Yes. Okay. So you'll see down there, total cost of the kilowatt hours was $2,016.51. And that's a slightly higher cumulatively. It's 48 90, but it still has us in a range of around $2,800. So definitely not a program that pays for itself. Mr. Mayor? Yes, council member Willis. I want to ask John Deleo, what is it costing us? Per month. Well, I talked to Zach before I came in here because there's a lot of information here. Of course you have a project. Right. And you invest in it for the community, right? Basically, that's what we did here. Kind of like the concession stand. It's something you're providing a service for the community, whatever. So, yeah. Council member Jackson, I agree. You and I will be about 115 years old. If you thought you could ever get the money back. From what we invested in, but the investment was there for the community. So what's going on now is you have twelve stations. And the annual charger network fees $400. So it's $4,800 and if you go to the front page, the total revenues generated were 48 90. So you came out. $90 ahead this year. And I was talking to Zach about this because I want him to. Explain exactly what he's put in here. Estimated going forward. Like if we were to go, say, just round it up to $5,000 a year. Based on the annual charger fee, then it is paying for itself. But we're not. Going to make any money. But the point here is not to make the point here probably was. It would have been nice. To make money, but it doesn't look like based on the way the market is and everything's going to go in and make money. So I don't ever see in a near future of us, ever. Making 111,000, getting 111,000 back. But it's just like any other project. That you say, hey, we're giving us the community. What have you. Just want to stay. In order here. Council member Willis? Yeah. That's what you. 're on the monthly fees, I think is what he asked. Well, no, I just wanted to. Know what it was costing the city. To run these chargers now. We've already spent the money to put them in. That's gone. That's. Done? We have chargers. That's what I did. Council, I answered your question. $4,800 a year, and we made 48, 90. Now, if we're looking for return on investment, then. All right, we have to apply this criteria to everything we're doing. Concession stand, tennis courts, everything. If that's the way we're going to do it. Tell me how we would ever return the investment on a concession stand. City gets not a dollar from it. We're not losing any money here, but we're really not making any money, right? And if we shut down the EV charging, we've lost everything there is no hope of. Recouping anything. I want to understand the numbers more. It's not for tonight, but I guess. The total, what we're calling revenue. Is money in? And the cost. The total cost for the year is where do I find that? You've got to go to the back page where it says annual. See at the top there, mayor, which is annual charger, networking fee per charger. You see that? Yes, and it says 400. How many charges we have? Twelve. So it cost us $4,800. He said, yeah, now. He says, flip back to the front of John. And it says, and I said, because I want to know what was our total revenues, and it's right there on the first page under cumulative program information. So he said we came out $90. So the revenue in from fees is 48 90 and the cost. Is 48. But that's the networking. Fee. What about the cost of electricity paid to FpL? Well, that's not in there. Now. This is the basic step, so I know you said you'd like to discuss this more. I think, mayor, what would be good is if you had to sit down with Zack so he could go through because these numbers, this could get confusing. And I think he could explain to the t where we're at, and if you see that. We're losing a couple of bucks or making a couple of bucks. Then it's just the investment of. This program that you're going to say, you know what? Council. We want the have EV chargers for the city, even though we'll never retrieve our investment in it, but maybe we can break even. Yeah, I think we were guessing when we originally went into this. Now, one thing. We've got some numbers. Are we doing this as an information on every agenda? The EV charging, I think. I believe we've had. Right? I think it was quarterly. Quarterly. Right. Okay. Probably that's good, because. The amount of data that would come in over three months to show where we were is not. Much. Our total number of chargers I'm trying to look for. Twelve. Okay, so basically what we've got. Is. We've got twelve chargers at $400 piece for the network data link. And the AI that maintains it per month. Oh, no. Annual. You're right. That's annual. Yeah. And then we had. 2000. $16. And $0.15. For electricity. Okay, so we're looking at 5016 15 is what we're spending, and we brought in. Total program revenues of 4890. So we're actually losing money. That's what I was trying now. I'm not going to disagree with you there, but, Mayor, I think this is where it would help with an extended conversation. With Zack to see if that's actually how these numbers are rolling out. That's. All I'm saying. Put it in a spreadsheet or however. Or just if we said initial startup cost. I think it's 670. Thousand and. If it was just monthly is great, but if you just run it out now that we have some data. In year one. The revenue and then the line item cost coming out each month like a cash flow just for the mayor. I'll get with Zach tomorrow, and I'll have Zach work on that. For you, Todd, if that's all right. Clarify. Also, it says there are six chargers charging stations. The cost is $400 per. Twelve. Zack says there's twelve charging stations in the city. Okay. The report says there's six. Yeah. We will clarify because I specifically asked him before this meeting because I was afraid he wasn't. Going to be here, and I wanted to have an answer for you. No, it's six, but there's two. Two on each. So there's twelve. Was there any liability insurance increase with the installation on any of the properties for the city, for any kind of insurance increase? I'm not sure, but that's something I can ask. Because. When you install one in your home, it increases your insurance. So I'd also like to see. Did we increase? Did our insurance get increased from having them? We've had them before. I mean, it's not like we just got them. We had the other one. I would hope the answer was to that would be no. Okay. Mayor will get that for you tomorrow. No rush for me. I think if it's quarterly. Okay. On the next one, but it would be good to get a handle. And really in the narrative form. Is helpful, but just to kind of see, monthly, or at least quarterly. What it did and breaking down and, yeah, if insurance was a legitimate cost, that'd be. A line item. And then market changes. Cost of electricity changes. FPL is going to increase their rate. It's really a moving target demand. Service, maintenance, all that you're managing. Those little six pedestal assets. And that cost of electricity. You just have to always stay above the FPNL rate. So they'll be paying more, and this program is almost impossible to estimate based on the future coming and the changes that we are all aware of are coming well, and I understand. Just to council member Willis's point. Understand. That the city provides services. Okay. And we say this all the time. We are a corporation. We are a municipal corporation that is entrusted via the. Public trust to ensure that what we spend our money on is something that's beneficial to our taxpayers. So if we're providing this, and it's mostly being used by tourists, We have to take a look at how we want to do this. There are many cities that have put them in and taken them out because they found that it wasn't worth it. For their city. That's why I wanted to look at this, because we got into the fuel business. We are in the fuel business and. That's not normal city service that a lot of cities provide. They don't do that? Yes. They provide tennis courts. Yes, they'll provide concession stands for the little League and many other things, and in our area, that may be justifiable. But if we aren't. Watching it. I don't think we're going to know if it is or. Not. But is it an attractor to come to our city to know that there's chargers? Here. We don't want our taxpayers. To pay any extra money. But does it? Based on if we knew how many people that were coming from out of town. That did this, but then came spent money in the city. In the grand scheme of it. It might be very beneficial to the city, so I don't know. The start date was October. What was the first day we went live on these December, early December. Of 23. Okay, so, yeah, we've reached a year. I think. We'll reach. Okay. I was just going to say I understand making profit and stuff like that, but my understanding when we were voting on. This was. It was more of a community. I mean, I didn't expect when I voted on this that we were going to make millions of dollars. I'm not saying we should, and I don't think we should. Take them out, because at this point, then we won't be making anything. So we have to get all the numbers and stuff like that, and maybe I'll change. My mind, but I would not like to take them out. I'd still like to offer. Them. Because then if we take them out, We're getting zero, so I'd rather make a little than nothing. Thank you. Are there any other discussions on this item, council member? Tim. No. I think we need to know. It's a little hard to. That'll really help. And once we can. See, exactly. This, I think, gives us a really good idea. It sounds like we might be losing. Yeah, because if. We don't have a good quarterly return and then a half year end, we don't. Even have half of what we have now. Then. Yeah, we probably going down that road. Very tough, very tough nut. This is a very tough nut here to crack because. We're saying here's a service. And we don't know who's going to use it. I really don't think that. You can compare ED charges. To tennis courts or concession stands or baseball fields. I mean, there are certain things that cities need. To offer for their residents, for the taxpayers that pay. And how many people in the city have EV cars? And that was the original thing where people were saying, well, if you're going to provide. Electric for electric cars. When it was free. I want a gas card. And now we're charging, but we're still behind the eight ball on making any. Money. So. That's just my opinion. Thank you. The intention was good. The program is tough. And the market's tough. It is. Mark is very tough. It's going to grow. Tougher, in my opinion, after listening to our inauguration speech yesterday. Because I think gas and oil drilling at home is going to be pushed. And so that may not help as well. We'll have to keep our eye on it. All we can do is know the numbers to the best of our ability and continue to monitor. It. I appreciate. It sounds like three months from now would be the next we could give. Obviously sooner. It's a January. So, like, April 1 or whatever, give you something? April 1? Okay. Anything else on that one? Council member Jackson. No, sir. That was it. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, so that brings us to discussion. Item number five. We're at 07:35 p.m. i'd like to take a ten minute recess here. And come back at 745. Or later, if needed. But let's recess and come back. Thank you. Electrifying conversation. Thank you. Got a tough job right now, but I think you're the one to get. It done and you'll get better. I really do believe that. Yeah, I do, too. That. Okay. Thank you all for your patience. I think we're waiting on the city attorney to return. And. I apologize for the delay. So with that, I don't know. I assume no action has been taken. Technically, at a quorum, and I didn't know if it was proceeding, but. I appreciate it. I'll go ahead. And call the meeting back to order. It's 836. P. M. And. We are at discussion. Item number. Five. Update to the January 24, 2024. This is the last item. On the agenda. I'm going to wait for the city attorney. To. Return. Mayor, can I give a recap of this item? Yes. So I went back through the minutes of each meeting since January 24. Of course, on January 24. Direction from the council was to obtain and distribute city council building permit inspections report. That was response submitted on March 19. Then there was obtained the engineering report from Kimberly horn. That was February 20. Request plans and confirmation of date for. FPL to remove overhead lines on January 30. FPL remove the overhead lines, placed them on the ground April 11, they removed the poll. Then, utilizing. The engineering report exercise available remedies to gain compliance. So there's been status updates. At every count, meeting at other times. Then the final task on that. Was city manager then following month. There were multiple meetings throughout the year. Ultimately, FPL did their work. Special meeting on May 7. Council reached consensus to present the report of findings was reviewed in detail. John Picar was contacted. At city council's request, responded that verbal approvals of the site work were given to the building official. He indicated, however, the vast majority projects had written approvals regarding the rocks and the swale complaint dated 524 23. The reason it was. New information in the report of findings is because it was information obtained during the course of the city managed preparation of the report of findings. Mr. Robinson, the code enforcement officer handling the case, indicated to the city manager and the CED deputy director, code enforcement manager, that it was information that he had stored outside of BSNA. The information was uploaded into BSMA in order to keep all information. In one place. When confronted with Mrs. Charlotte's statement that the date could not be correct as the rocks were delivered several days after 524 23. Mr. Robinson said that he was sure of the date. Then on May 24, city council was given access to BSNA, per council request. Chris Robinson's. Last day was June 21. Dave Dickey's last day was July 15. Until it's back. Going back to Fillmore until this time July council and staff working under Mr. Whitaken's assertion that he would be completing the work. However, due to the length of time. With no forward progress, the city council changed course and began to pursue a demand letter. At July 31, city manager held a meeting with Mr. Whitaken, his attorney, Mike Allen. Project engineer staff members, members from Kimley Horn City Engineers office and deputy director of ced. The topics of discussion were the council's coming demand letter and a path forward toward completion on the Fillmore townhomes. Following this meeting, the city attorney and Mr. Whitaken's attorney held a number of discussions over the next five months. There being no forward progress. On September 17, the demand letter was forwarded and furtherance of city council's. Direction September 25, that the recommendation city attorney, the city manager for the demand letter to the Fillmore Townhome unit owners, adding, as instructed by the city attorney, the city is not at liberty to provide any additional comments about the letter. At this time. Then, on December 17, the mayor, city manager and IT staff held an online meeting with representatives from BSNA. The meeting focused on reviewing the capabilities of the system and Q and a related to document storage in an effort to assure no utility. Conflicts were in the as yet unconstructed drainage soil. On January 6 this year, I met with city engineer. And representatives from FPL to determine location and depth of underground FPL utilities. As a result, FPL indicated a need to adjust the location of the underground utilities. The work was. Begun on January 16, but was interrupted by the discovery of an underground swimming pool in the easement area. City engineer documented the discovery and provided two options. And that was Today City manager's. Office is currently working to schedule a similar onsite assessment regarding the brighthouse utilities in closing, I met with Mrs. Scholar on January 8, 2025, and asked her if there. Was anything else that she thought could be done to bring this item to closure. She stated that the damage was done. And all that could be done was to ensure that code enforcement customers not feel targeted. I said that code enforcement policies have been implemented to ensure all violations and compliances. Are well documented and that robust reporting and review is designed to assure that time frames do not make code. Enforcement customers feel targeted. Additionally, as relates to the code officer's statement about cowboy complaining about rocks in the swale on 524 23. That comment was either purposely false or inaccurately recorded. As you may recall, that statement was also previously stricken and notated as stricken due to lack of corroborating evidence. As for the Fillmore townhomes, relying on Mr. Whitaken during the first half of 2024 to complete the work. Proof fruitless in July council directed, we move forward with the demand letter. Since that time, the completion has been a pending. Legal matter. Along the way. Process improvements have been made. Of the employees directly involved. None remain employed by the city employees who have inherited those roles have been informed of the mistakes that were made which cannot be repeated. Formalized code enforcement sops have been developed and have been forwarded to city council. And some. I have faithfully worked to complete all that council has requested I do regarding Philmore. And Jackson. These are and were two very difficult items. Jackson is done. Fillmore is awaiting utility rework and a council decision. I respectfully submit that council should soon make a decision on the Fillmore utility work to be done and then close this item. Sir. Thank you. This statement. Read on the Jackson item number five. I believe you read that. Is that right, Todd? Additional due. To a lack of substantial evidence. You read into the record? Is that provided in writing here? No, this is my commentary tonight. These are from. Mike, will you state that one more time, what you wanted to read into the record? In regards to Jackson Avenue and the entry, please? As relates to code enforcement officer's statement about cowboy complaining about rocks in the swale. On 524 23 that comment was either purposely false or inaccurately recorded. You may recall that statement was also previously stricken and notated as stricken due to lack of corroborating evidence. Thank you. Is. Mike Schaefer, it manager here Todd and available. Ask a question regarding Jackson Avenue. Sure. Mike, if you don't mind. It was brought to my attention that the city manager got a new cell phone. That's correct. It was time for a new one. The cell phone would not charge any further, so it had to be replaced. It was an iPhone twelve and it went to a 14. It's the new one. Thank you. He and I had met, and he had told me that my concern was. His new phone did not have his records. Text messages. That we were referencing to verify correspondence between himself. And the property owner, Ms. Peg Shawler. That's correct. We do not transfer. We don't have a capability of transferring text. Messages. How are those messages handled? That were on his old phone. Or those. Messages don't get carried forward. Do they live on the phone or do you. Clear the phone at some point. I will clear the phone, yes. And that particular phone has been. Cleared. So is there any ability to go back and retrieve those text messages? No, sir, not at this. Point. No. The photographs on the phone. I'm assuming this is a city workflow. This is a city workflow. That's. Correct. And. There were about. I recall, right? Four or five years worth of photos on the phone I was able to transfer. Those photo photos can be transferred fairly easy. Text messages. You have to have an archiving tool for texting, and we currently don't have that. Were you requested by Todd to change out the phone? To assume that the charging issue. My phone's not charging. That's exactly why I've. Changed it, yes. And you respond. You responded to a request? Yes, sir. Ordered a new phone and swapped it out. Gave the same. Phone number, did all the assignments. Put it in our mobile management system for the phones. It's a very standard procedure review. Thank you. I think that's all I have for right now. Mike, I'm sorry. I think council and I should have asked council member Jackson. Michael. On live home. I know that with the class. Does it do anything on diagnostic text messages? We do not. There was a decision made prior to my time coming here not to turn on. That capability. So we don't currently have that capability in place. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Yes. Thank you, Mike. Any other questions for Mike this time? Okay. Todd before. You requested, Mike. To resolve the issues in your phone, is that right? I just told him it wasn't charging and he said, you've got one of the oldest phones. We need to update that. Did you take any preparations? With I handed him. Data from your phone. I handed him my phone and say, do what you got to do. Did you have a desire to. Have all. The old photos on your phone. Did those transfer over? He did that for me, yes. And the text messages. Did you know that you were going to lose those text messages? I did. Not. Looking back, would you have rather. Add the text messages. I think that we need to develop a policy about how we handle this. Okay. Just for. Clarity. Make sure. Those text messages in the phone was five years old. All right, Mike. Five years old. Prior to that phone. You've been with the city for how many years? On February, it'll be 23 years. 23 years and been through a few phones in that time. They did not all have texting capability. That phone that you just replaced that would not charge. Did those messages go back further? Were you able to? I think every time I got a new phone, which might have happened a handful of times. Restarted. But obviously that's just guessing. This city's practice with text messages, would you be able to explain? The departmental practices on how those are handled. Staff is encouraged to not conduct city business via text, but that doesn't mean that other people don't send city business to staff members by text, and they shouldn't. Including council members. And when that happens, how are those handled? Because it happens. If it becomes an item, that becomes business. I know I've done this personally where I've made it a screenshot and forwarded it so it could be included for whatever city business was being addressed by that text. Message. Prior to giving mike your phone. Did you make any preparations to screenshot any messages? That would be city business. I would do. That for some people when it became city business, yes. But prior to doing so, a record that exists on your phone. That. I don't understand what you mean by you would do that for some people. What? Does that mean? If a member of the public wanted to text me about. A utility connection. I would screenshot that and send it over to public works. If a member of the public texted you. As an example, do utilities need to be underground? Are you relevant? You're saying. That coming from a citizen? Yeah. Okay, so you receive an inbound text message, and you would screenshot that. It's now an item of city business and it needs to be acted on, and it needs to be put. In email. And. Okay. So those messages. That existed. In your phone. Are gone now. According to Mike, yes. And that was not an issue for you. I believe any city business item that needed to be addressed was addressed by screenshotting. If it was an actionable item of city business. Okay. There was recently. Okay. So that's a concern. Thank you very much, Todd. Potentially five years of messages. I think. There is a tremendous amount of public records that relate to city business. I would argue that each one of us. Up here. We all receive text messages. While it may not. Be easy or we don't have the tools or features due to previous decisions. I don't think that escapes the responsibility to manage those records. This is related to a message that was brought to my attention by the property owner. Mike, did you want to say something? I'm sorry. Yes, sir. I just want to caution. Council here that this could quickly go into a closed meeting. Where this conversation is going with some of the capabilities. Or lack thereof. I will be cautioned. City attorney I trust that. You will. Help. Advise if there's anything we're saying that should be. Exempt. In a closed meeting. Eventually. Yeah, well, the ability to manage public records, I think we all have. We take annual ethics class. Here we learn we have custodian records. This came up because of a message. From the property owner, peg shawler. Who? Received a message from the city manager. She responded to the city manager answering the question. And when I met with the city manager, He was not able to produce that record. And then finding out now, tonight, more. In understanding the issue. It sounds like there are no records. From all of your contacts and all the messages, including myself. And being transparent, open with the council and the public. I had the chance to sit with the city manager. And show the first text message. I ever received from Todd he started was in 2018. And that was city business. And there's other city business matters. The specific issue was related to the lien. That was ordered by the magistrate. For jackson avenue. You all recall that went to. The magistrate. The property owner at the time was given a certain amount of time to pull permits and to correct the violations. That did not happen to my understanding and meeting. Or watching the meetings, the hearings. The magistrate then ordered. A lien. The property was sold. I believe after the lien was placed on the property, This 2024. When Miss Shawler bought the property. That was incorrect. The lien was ordered by the magistrate in January of 2024. And. The purchase was done after that. The lien was imposed. The lien was ordered. Was ordered by the magistrate. And then she purchased the property with the existing lien. But the lien was never recorded. By the code officer. When I found that out, I had also been told by her peg that she had her intention to purchase the property. And correct all the violations. And I had a phone call with her, and I said in a good faith effort. What I'd like to do is just recognizing that the code officer failed. To record the lien. Would just hold off on recording it because you're in the process of fixing all of this. It seems to be an unnecessary thing to do. And showing good faith, working with a property owner. So she thanked me for that. She asked. How long she needed me to hold off, and she said, 30 days. And I said, why don't we be safe and call it 60 days and she said, fine, thank you very much. So she bought the property and she began to cure the violations. And I understand all the violations. Have been cured. There's no violation remaining. Therefore, there's no reason to record a lien. Did he? Attorney, the order from the magistrate. You might have been at that hearing? I don't know, but if you can help explain. The process after that order. Happened? On Jackson Avenue. The lien was placed. How long, typically. Does the city have? Or is it there no time limit to record the lien? And who is responsible. To record that lien. I don't attend the magistrate hearing, so I wasn't at the meeting. So the magistrate will conduct a Massey hearing procedurally before a lien can be imposed, assuming the magistrate has a massive hearing. And the magistrate determines that the violation. Has not been corrected. Then the magistrate will then issue a written order finding non compliance and then imposing. Penalty. And that order becomes. The recorded future recorded lien. So that order has to be prepared. And then signed by the magistrate. And then I'm assuming, and this is just an assumption. On my part, it would go. To the city. The recording secretary, I would imagine. And then at that point, The lien would be recorded by staff. Sometimes the code will specifically say a position. City attorney. You might be the specific. I don't know who is responsible to record the lien. Without looking at the code. I don't know if it designates a certain person. But. There's administrative help that the magistrate receives from the city to conduct the hearings. Are you aware of any time limit? No. I don't think there's a specific statutory time limit, but. Time is of the essence on those sorts of things, right? When a violation in a lien. Is imposed. It should be recorded as soon as possible. Right, because. People convey property and you want to get it recorded and attached as soon as possible and not have an unreasonable delay. Thank you. The former property owner. Had a property that was a serious safety issue. The building caught on fire, as we know. The tenants at the time complained. The tenant was the only one that actually received a violation. We all know that story. We've talked about this from the beginning. And then. With persistence. She stayed on it in an act of counsel. Involving. I think ourselves in the process to understand the issue. Finally, a notice of violation was issued. After a lot of meetings. And a lot of effort. And. The sentiment. And reasoning. Why? Code violations were not pursued. From. My remembrance of the meetings was that that particular property owner. Was not going to fix anything and they were not going to pay anything. What good is it? We were rewarding bad behavior. And so, nevertheless, it went through. The notice of violation. They were correct. They did not fix anything. I believe the officer Robinson was on that case. At the time. And. It made it to the. Magistrate. The magistrate did his job, ordered the lien. And then it was back on the city. And then that property was sold. And it should have had a lien. And the buyer asked. Her attorney and title, and I don't know if they called with the city and there was no lien. And if. There was, the seller would have. I don't know how those things work. I think adjust. The price or pay the lien right before they close. That lien needed to be paid. And. There was no accountability. The officer was separated from employment. That's accountability. There was no accountability with the property owner. He sold a property with liens and he did not have to pay the cost of the neglect. There was no accountability. When our code enforcement officers, I think, seemed reluctant because they seem to only want to pursue cases where people would pay or people would. Oh, I'm sorry. And try to do a good. Job. But if you ignore the city. Right. It seemed in that particular case, that supposition. I think he should have recorded the lien. And he failed to. Well, he, I think, failed to do issue the notice of violations. Originally, that building didn't. Change that sat there. For months and months, if not over a year, and I think that we all agreed with that. And the magistrates certainly agreed. But my point is that. When it got to the magistrate hands through a lot of effort and advocacy. And pushing on a property that. Has been considered a major opportunity since 2009. Visioning sessions when it was Dottie's bar. That the city did not hold that property owner accountable. And the magistrate. Until they proceed. The magistrate imposed the penalties. And the property owner. Sold the property and never had to pay. That's not how the City of Cape Canaveral should be doing business, and I do not know why. That lien was not recorded considering the spotlight. And the timing of that. It was 363 days since that meeting. Efforts to fix the property. City attorney. Is it back in our hand? Can we decide to not? Record. An order from the magistrate. And if so, did. That is not best practice. And furthermore. The statute authorizes that. It be recorded as a lien? It enhances the city's ability to collect. Whatever the fine amount ultimately is, right? Because. Once it's recorded, right? Once the order is issued, the fines run daily until ultimately it comes into compliance. You want to get that recorded against land because the property, because under the statute. Not only is it a lien against the subject property where the violation occurred, but also all other properties owned by the violator in the county. So you secure the city's. Fine by recording it otherwise. Not secured against real property, and then you wouldn't have the ability to foreclose. On it in the event that. There is a foreclosure opportunity to compel compliance. Best practice. The practice. Is to record it. The magistrate. Magistrate doesn't put it. The magistrate issues the order. It's clerical to record, okay? And this is a recording fee, of course. It's against the violator and the notice of violation in the subject property. That's customary practice. I don't love the answer of best practice, but I appreciate it. Either you can or either you have to or you don't have to. I guess that's my question. Do you have the magistrate orders a lien on that? Property when it was owned by the time Shane Reynolds, the former property owner, The code enforcement officer. Has the responsibility. I heard that. In a best practice to do it. But there's no issue here. He. Has the authority. To not file it. And I think that. Discretion is what got us here in the first place. Selective. The comments of retaliatory, discriminative, all of that we took head on. This whole council who sits with us today. Action was taken. The magistrate was supposed to make things better, and I believe it has. But the magistrate can't. Do our job. Serious shortfall. And. That city employee neglected their duty. That employee had a manager. One employee had one manager. To make sure that they did their job. I believe that employee. In this specific case neglected their duty. That manager had a director who makes sure that the managers manage the employees. Free eyes on it. And that director has a city manager, and that's all this council can see. And so. How does that happen? I don't think those are mistakes. I think that. Is not. Emphasizing. The roles and responsibilities, the code. And exclamation point around in order. From closest thing to it, a judge we have. And I have not heard an answer on why that was not handled. With. Swift, expeditious manner. On a serious life safety issue. That was neglected. That in a two square mile city we were very well aware of? I don't know. Why the code officer didn't record the lien he failed to. Do you know why? The manager did not ensure that that code enforcement officer and what the director did not and why I'm sure they relied on people to do their job. And obviously he didn't do his job. Code officer should have recorded the lien. He chose to not record that link. I can't say what he chose. All I can say is he didn't do it. Did he ever answer to anything about the lien and why he did not do it? Was it brought to his attention that he did not record the lien? Or did he leave going? I just forgot about that. Brian Palmer told me about it. That it? Was never done. Had discovered it wasn't recorded. City attorney did you get anywhere with whether or not. They're required or the statute says, a certified copy of the order imposing the fine, or fine plus repairs may be recorded in the public records and thereafter shall constitute a lien. May be recorded. Okay, so it sounds like. Practice is to record. Thank you. How else do you secure it? Undoubtedly best practice. My opinion. Brian brought it to your attention. City manager. When was that? This was after Peg had announced that she was buying the property. And intended to cure all the violations. Okay. The former property owner really, I don't think had any accountability. Peg had to. Clean up. Not that mess. And go in. And do the work. That he was responsible to do, and so. There's a few one to two good enforcement officers. This is one person over one person. And tighten it in a small community with a very high stakes, high profile. Issue that has been long standing considered blighted property that caught on fire. With people that involved. County sheriff's office to come in and have to respond to issues. And the records and the management around that. Sort of just stirs up. A frustration that I wanted to share. This was just brought to my attention. I wanted to confirm. And the reason it was brought up was that. Peg shawl or the current property owner stated that. She saw on the website BSNA. And we can go back and look at our reports. That. I think up until maybe very recently, it showed that there was a lien imposed on that property. Which doesn't help. So now we see, and we get our monthly reports to get the status and it says lean and I can go back through the months. It started in June of 2024. And I don't know if it changed or ended, but from our eyes, it shows there's a lien. It was ordered. By the magistrate. I think it said Lien filed wasn't filed with the clerk of court. Well ordered, filed. It's two different things. Yes, I understand that. I'm saying when she went to buy the property, she goes on bs and a it. Says a lien and it stayed a lien. And so she's like, there's no lien. There was a lien ordered that's still true. By the magistrate. And what is the accrued amount of fines? Until it's found in compliance at the magistrate hearing. The number of days from the magistrate's order till that day. So that's technically still a crew of it. Well, no, you could still file it. And enforce it. But my goal was not to penalize miss scholar because she's trying to cure the violations, and that would just cost her more money to have to pay a lien on this. Property. But it was the time before Miss Schawer bought it. It was already ordered by the magistrate, the city attorney says you want to act on it. It should have been done, and it wasn't. But by the time it came to my attention, she was already in the process. Of buying the property. I'm not wanting to penalize her. I'm wanting to. Help her. I'm not so sure about that either. I'm not here to help, Peg or one over the other, she thought. That's a magistrate decision. Any reason any reasonable person, I think, would look at that and go, That's not how that should be handled. When this was under a magnifying glass. We were all staring at how this was handled after. Serious gaps. And incomplete records. Missing records. I agree. It should have been filed. Peg had records that the city sent her. And the city had no proof of those records. Really? That's all been covered. Management. And then when she tells me, I messaged him. I approached you, you said, I don't know where it is. Now we've learned. That all those texts are deleted. I believe she asked me, where is the lien? And I said, where are you seeing this? She referenced Bsna. So his truth referring to the order. The former property owner. Had no pressure to correct his property. And when it got all the way down, He just sells it without a lien. He imposed. It should have been recorded. I agree with you. And the reason why. Isn't. Because. There was layers of oversight. And especially you. Right? As our city manager, they might have multiple cases, but. That one's reported to this council of five, I will agree. That he failed to record it, and I will agree that that happened under my watch, but I was not aware of it until Brian Promer brought it to my attention. So, yeah, I think relying on word of mouth. And bringing things to the attention. We've learned a lot that those have resulted. In insufficient issues. I seriously see it as. A neglect. Of duty. When a council directs. That action be taken. And it doesn't. That's unfortunate. And so the other unfortunate is public records. And the way we're managing public records and being able to rely on accurate information. We cannot make good decisions if we don't. Get accurate information. Complete information. And. I think shifting to Filmore, Jackson and Filmore, the information has been. Either. It does not exist. In complete inaccurate or. It pops up later. Referring to David Dickey's information. I'm referring to the city's ability to take a property and say, From site plan plat. To construction. Here's a four unit town home. I'm going to show our work on one project. Just one. How the City of Cape Canaveral does it? And I think we found some serious opportunities. To improve. To put it nicely. I think there are mistakes made, certainly. Those particular properties. Were two examples for code and for building. And. I'm very concerned about records being deleted without. An effort to retain them. Our city council, I think, is willing to put any resources. And before decisions are made to delete records. There's a procedure for that. And I think if this council would have been asked that we could buy a software or something. That would allow. I can speak for myself. I would have supported that. And I don't think it's. A council decision. I think we have to. Unfunded mandates, as we call them. We are mandated to retain records. And some of the gaps in the information. In putting this together, as I've worked with city attorney, city manager, is that you just. Can't. Get the whole story. You can't get all the information, and some of those gaps might. Have been answered in some of those text messages. It was the only record that would. Show. Todd, you utilize the city phone or city business with a citizen. When you texted peg shawler. That's city business. Did you retain that record? I did not dispose of that record. Okay. Can I ask? Receive test. Pulling you out particularly. You've said. I have not deleted any records. I can say that. So, yes, I have saved them. Okay. I'm not pointing you out, but. I understand most tests. We have to all say. We're trying to hold. May not be doing it. I don't see how we can hold them responsible. When we had policy. In place. If we want to change it, that's fine. So we have to. Keep our tests or whatever we want to do to change. Probably to save your text. Bone died. A new one, and I use information every time. I'm talking my personal film. So I've lost a lot of information by switching. Phones. Sorry. That happens when you use phone. I don't think we can hold him accountable for something that was policy at the time. What's that policy? Where? You said something that we don't have. Yeah, but I don't think of it as policy. Well, you said it was. Not. There was a decision made. Yes. Not to get an archiving system for the text at that time. So how do you hold. I mean, I'm working through some. Whatever reason mine breaks. I held my phone. Die or whatever. I didn't know if the time was down. But I think I should be held accountable by accidentally lost in text, but. My phone died and it has with no ability to recharge it. Is that what you're. Saying, or it wouldn't keep a charge. It was very temperamental about receiving a charge. You could power it on, though, or. I've had it where you got to move the wire and it wouldn't charge. And it gets loose. In there. But even if you took my phone and you threw it in the middle of the banana river lagoon. I can go down and buy a phone and I will get all of my records because. I have to. The former it director made that decision. Whose decision was that? I guess was that. When I go down. We're quickly going into the cyber security realm. I can change. But I can tell you. Without tap dancing around. That regardless of who made the decision, it was. A locally decided policy not to acquire that tool. The tools at the time that have that capability. And I don't know if it was a cost decision, if it was a technology decision. I don't know why. Because I was not present, so I cannot. Give you past decision. The intent behind that. I wasn't part of that decision making either. So all city employees, we don't keep text messages. IPhone is no different from any other city employee, Mike, right? That is correct. Okay, this is a bit crazy to me. Kind of scratching my head. I know we have a new city clerk and excited, but to speak for our former. I think. She was very up to speed on. Those laws. And I never remember her stating to me that I didn't have a responsibility. To keep my text messages further. Ethics laws, talks with the city attorney, all the trainings, league of cities that we invest in. This is absolutely unacceptable. And we are smarter than this. I mean, I honestly feel like I'm a little bit. Of a gaslighting here. Do we hear what we're saying? That. We don't have because. We can't. A decision before your time. I mean, you've been with the city. For 20 years. So now it's this mysterious. There's no policy that I've ever seen. If so, why wasn't that? Communicated to the council. There's no. Software that I've known. I understand that. That makes sense. And I get it. But that's not a reason to not follow those public records requirements, especially when we are initiating and using our phones for records. The policies written. We need to. Not. Have. Absolutely. Whatever. I don't know. The state holds us responsible. Yeah, we go through and take that training, and it literally said if. I do a doodle up here and I draw a picture of whatever. If somebody asked me, Kay, what were you writing? I want that public record that Doodle has. To go to them, and that includes all electronic. I just took the course. Yeah. What would happen if you had a city phone? And it just wouldn't charge anyone. And we have the policy that we can't. Well, there's nothing you can do about. Actually, there are things you can do, and that was one of the things. I just was going to interrupt and ask a question. Now I understand. That. We don't have a program capturing. But most of the mobile vendors out there have an SMS server, and those records are literally online. With our account, right? And you can log on and get your text. Online. From the account interface. Now, that may not be for municipal, it may not be for a large. Corporation. It's something we could check. But. Those policies are exactly why I just brought this up, literally. And Mike and I discuss the fact that I want to be on a city phone because once I went through Florida League of Cities training. I'm very much aware that me using my own device. Is absolutely not what I want to do. I want to have it all in one spot now. We do have. Different situations with things that were passed in the past because. Of. The situation we've had with it prior to Mike and our team, we have now. But here's the thing. And we can ask city attorney this, but as far as the law is concerned, Us not knowing. Ignorance is not an excuse. For breaking the law, and the state statutes say we are to keep all of this so. Literally, if you're using a device, you should be screen capping every text from any constituent that texts you or anyone that is at the city that's texting you because if someone asks for it, you have to provide that record legally. So there is no excuse for. We didn't know. That is not an excuse. Or we weren't able to. And also on these phones, just so you know, you can tell, I dealt with mobile and I get it, Mike, because mine, I wear those USB chargers out and they get loose. We need to look at the fact that maybe we need some of the charters that you lay. The phone flat on to get an enough charge. To copy the records before. We let the phones go? We need to look at when phones are reset. They shouldn't be immediately reset, period, because that is a problem with public records. And it comes back to the individual. From what I just took in class, it comes back to the individual. To provide that for those text messages, so it's on me. Somebody asked for mine. I'm going to have to sit down and do it and take the time to do it. Period. That's what I. Now, am I wrong? City attorney Anthony on what my interpretation, while this was because I just went through that training. Institution. So I'm going to make it abundantly clear that whatever that retention schedule is, I will take any action and propose any action to freeze all records because we are reaching the one. Year point and that any records at a minimum do not be deleted. And if you need form. Formal procedure or direction to do that as it relates to these properties. There are addresses, all correspondence related to them. The last message I gave this council is it's not making sense to me, and thank you all for your patience as I've worked through it. It's 933. I'm going to get to some of the things. That. I think I need to share here with the council. Obviously, we got our vision statement. It talks about resilience and safety, community stewardship, business friendly development with Fillmore and Jackson Avenue. With resilience and safety. These incidents, I think, reflected a neglect in ensuring resilient infrastructure and public safety. We had fires, and we're still dealing with flooding and pools under the ground. Community stewardship. Yeah. There's probably more to come. Community stewardship. Inconsistent code enforcement. And record manipulation. I believe, undermine the city's commitment to responsible government governance. And that third value, or in the vision. I'm sorry? Business friendly and development. I pulled three sections out of the vision. Business friendly development. Mismanagement of permits. And I believe. Inconsistent and selective enforcement, discouraging fair and transparent business practices. As far as the mission goes, the mission of the City of Cape Canaveral government is to provide excellence in municipal services by supporting a high quality of life, fiscal responsibility, and environmental stewardship while celebrating diversity and fostering innovation. Failures related to the mission statement are excellence in municipal services. I believe there are procedural errors. Clearly. And selective enforcement, showing a disregard for consistent and high quality city operations. Fiscal responsibility. Failing to file liens, that's money to the city. That'll buy. Tennis courts and make improvements. And improving failing to file liens and approving severance pay for underperforming employees violates principles of financial stewardship. And last, environmental stewardship. Infrastructure failures such as. Improperly installed drainage systems at Fillmore compromise environmental integrity and resilience. Those are just some of the things that I believe we, as accounts, are responsible to be. Shepherds. Of the vision of the mission when I look at it. There are successes in there. These are the major issues that I think Fillmore and Jackson two of many properties has brought to my attention. And as far as the values, there's five. Out of the lung list that we have, that I pulled, that I'm questioning a commitment. To excellence. I do not believe this has been followed city manager. I think, did not uphold the standards in managing the community development department, including the building and code. Enforcement services provided to the community I. E. Filmore in Jackson's results and current statuses accountability despite the knowledge of departmental failures. Knowledge. Of departmental failures. No employees were disciplined or terminated for the failures. And implicated staff and the other departments were dragged into this and implicated them. Which resulted. In resignations, some that were allowed to stay on after the resignation. In the early days. When it was believed to be. An issue on their part. And obviously, the unjustified severance pay, fiscal responsibility. The failure to provide sufficient resources and oversight to file liens, obtain security bonds, and ensure proper building and code enforcement reflects poor stewardship of city resources integrity. This is a big one. Altering and or not maintaining public records while allowing unsafe. Construction to be completed along. Selective enforcement, as I said, erodes the trust in the city's. Governance. And five communication last inaccurate and poor communication with the city council. And community regarding the failed procedures within the building department and code enforcement violates this value. I am obviously having issues. We have mission, vision and values, but we obviously. Have. Our charter and we have our code. And when we read the charter, it's a very short section on the city manager. And it's section 402. Ultimately. Enforcing these laws and then overseeing the enforcement of these laws after it's been brought to your attention has been a clear problem. Coincidentally, with properties and property owners that. Seem. To not ever have enforcement, and if they're not being treated differently, Then is the entire city being treated like Fillmore and Jackson. I don't like that. And. That's what I'm observing. Charter is vague and big, but. That's ultimately it. And as far as. The city code. There's. Six items. I won't read them all. Some of them, I believe, have been fulfilled, but the big ones. Under section 2101, powers and duties of the city manager. The first one is provide sustained administrative leadership and coordination of staff and board activities and carrying out the acts and directives of the city council. Through overall supervision. If people did filed liens and did things that they wanted, we wouldn't need supervisors. This is why we have them. Not only one supervisor, multiple supervising supervisors who supervise managers who. We are being supervised by the public. We're being almost finished. And so, through overall supervision, coordination. In this capacity, the city manager coordinates the activities of staff and boards to that adequate. Information so that adequate information and recommendations. In important areas. Are expeditiously considered by staff. And boards brought promptly to the attention of the council. Everything that I found out about Filmore, we have had to. Pull. Rip. And those were closed cases. Co issued. Done. Here's the file. It took months. It took. Weeks and we're still getting information. And so when I say inadequate, that's what I mean, the inability to present and provide text messages. We can't do that now. You cannot show proof that you reached out to a citizen. This is just one example. Now or. Any correspondence. And communicated to the public. That's inadequate. It doesn't exist. That's an extreme example. And last out of the six. It calls our city manager to a point when deemed necessary for the good of service, suspend or remove all city employees. And appoint administrative people. From my administrative. Officers? Yes. Those employees are not here. And I think we have been saved. But they're not here anymore. Or unfortunately, they're not here anymore. Unfortunately, we don't have those records to verify. That's not an acceptable answer. And. I could go on through some other powers and duties in there, but those two big ones adequate. Inadequate information in section 2111 and then. In five, removing and suspending employees the way, in the manner it was done. It was not done, in a way, upon knowledge of problems that happened, not mistakes. If these were just new to Cape Canaveral. These are long standing issues in Cape Canaveral code. Enforcement under. Former city managers, when we ranked, was always the lowest. And there's a term out there. Within the public. That's called the good old boys and the good old boys, as I defined. It is very simple. You get treated favorably if they like you, you get treated unfavorably if they don't. Like you. That's one way to describe it. And that's what this has led me, counsel, to see. Is. There's been. Inconsistent in the way we're treated with inadequate information. These are not mistakes. Some are, and some have been corrected. And many good things have come out of this. But the biggest thing is the agreement between. The city manager and the city, which was. Executed. July of 2020. And the section within. The agreement is. C eleven. And what this is, is it talks about. Roles and responsibilities throughout the agreement, but. It talks about some of those responsibilities and things that. He's not supposed to do. And it also talks about what they're supposed to do. But the one. That jumped out that really summed it up was. That. At some point. We have to draw the line. And there's been, I believe, Under the agreement. Some issues. My entire issue. With the two employees that created. Problems. That. Were never. Disciplined, suspended, removed, terminated, anything. Both of those and only those received severance pay. Six weeks each. They received one. Dollars too much, in my opinion. It's not my decision. That's your decision, but. It is my decision to make sure that you're being responsible with the funds. And that you're making decisions that are in the best interest of their citizens and the citizens that have been involved in this and greater Cape Canaveral and go back to the Oak lanes. It's coming back and all the other ones throughout the years. Is that where is the accountability. That puts on our shoulders now. It's no longer a city manager issue. It's our issue, like I said in our last meeting. And so when I look at. Section c. Council. I know you haven't had chance to probably look at the agreement. But the neglect of duty raises. A major issue, and I think it has continued to happen. It is your duty to know public records. We purchased the taxpayers. For you to have the resources you need to figure that out. And as a 20 plus year employee. I'm sharing with the council. There's a lot of things that have disappeared, been manipulated. It goes to our vision. It goes to our mission. Our values. And specifically on page five of eight section. C three. Neglective duty. Is what I want to share. As my conclusions on Filmore, Jackson and the city as a whole, and it would be my opinion to stop there. Council member Davis, you wanted to speak? I'm one. I'm not a majority, but I would like to hear. Your thoughts, your experience. Whatever we want to discuss as it relates to this. And. I've been patient. I've shown grace, I've shown mercy, I've shown love. I've shown every possible value that I can. Throughout this. It's 363 days on top of what I counted to be about. We're approaching almost 1000 days. If you go back from when the city had. This. In our hands to administer, so. I'm done there. And this is an effort to put this behind us. Council member Davis. I can't remember what I was going to ask. That's fine. I'll speak. Council member Jackson. I think. It's really bad when we have. Situations like this. Where our citizens feel targeted. We can't allow that to continue. For me. I have. Tried to give grace. And those kinds of things as well. However. I have a very difficult time with thinking that these things are going on in that department, and our city manager, of course, comes from that department. So are we. So out of sync, period, that. We couldn't do anything right. In that department because. It's difficult when you see these things that have been going on. It goes beyond systems. It goes beyond. Those kinds of things. But I do know that. From what I've seen. Public trust is a big thing, and we're losing that. We're losing that battle. In that group and with the city on hold, and I've discussed that. Because that's what we're here for. Even with staff or anyone else. So it's really difficult. This is a difficult situation to be in. But. I don't feel any better that I know that this isn't going to keep. Going this way. How I haven't seen. Anything. We're going through an investigative process here, which I understand that, and. We pretty much. Have very good documented information at this point that says these things shouldn't have happened. I've had discussions on how people left. Because. That's not the way I ever did anything. In my life. If someone did the wrong thing, I didn't let them leave. By just quitting. So. It turns into a situation where we as counsel, it also mars our reputation when these things are allowed to continue on. I think that there are things that need to be tightened up in our charter. Definitely. But. I always, in my professional life. When there's a failure that has been as big as just these two addresses because it really scares me to think about. If we looked at more. And the behavior. It becomes a bigger issue. At a higher level. We've had a lack of training. I've discussed this with the city manager. Because. It comes at the end of the day, it comes down to whoever the leader is to make. Sure their teams are trained and the processes are in place and things are heading in the correct direction. If it's not. You work with those leaders now, or you work with your directors, you work with your managers and that sort of thing to implement the things that need to be put into place to be successful. I have the records. That really bothers me when we don't have. Good record keeping processes in every department, and I think we need to really clean a lot of those things up. Not just this one, but others. So I understand what you're saying, mayor, and I do understand that. This can't continue. I don't feel good that I've heard. What positive action would be taken to where it won't continue. So I know that we have new staff in that group. I think that. They're going to work really hard. To ensure that things. Are done properly. But the things that I've sat and listened to over. The last year. It's really amazing. Thank you. Council member Willis. Yes. Things have happened. That no one's happy about. But I think the city manager has made the changes. He's hired the people to correct the issues. I don't believe. That the city manager is guilty of any. Feesants, malfeasance or neglective duty. I think he has done everything he possibly could to rectify the situations. Now things come up that we have found out about the Fillmore. Property that nobody knew. Nobody could even research. So those things have to be corrected. But I believe that the city manager. Has done good work. I think. He has done the best with the staff that he had and then has replaced that staff with better people. And I think. With the young people that. We had employed. We were moving in the good right direction, but we've lost some of those, for whatever reason. But I don't believe that. The city manager had any intent to delete or destroy any records if his phone was dead. It was dead. If we don't have the resources. Or the procedures in place, we need to put them in place. And I would like to know what that cost would be as well. And what our it department recommends. Because they should know. But I don't see. Any reason. To drag the city manager through this any further. I think he's done a reasonably good. Job with what he's been dealt. And continues to do a good job. Thank you, council member Willis. I just have a few comments. I know. Mia when she was city clerk. We have done public records requests that she has sent us emails that she needed everything. From our phones or from everything, so. There is no capability of recovering. That. How would. We send? The information to her if there is no way to recover that. We never had that capability, so. Why would she ask for it? And I just think that. This started. With Fillmore. And Jackson and. I wonder, if it hadn't been brought to the council, where would we be now? Would we still be in this mess? Like the mayor said. The information. From Filmore and Jackson. We had to pull from staff. Over months and months. Of asking for this and trying to get the right decision or right information to make the right decision. I think that Mike German and Sean were the first to leave. And it started from. There. They disagreed with what happened at Fillmore. They left. Because they had a disagreement. With the city manager. And then Chris Robinson. Has been a problem in the code enforcement department for a long time. Way before all of this came to light, there was problems with him. The fact that he did not file the lien or that did not. Get recorded. Cost the city money. Not only the lien itself, but the time the code enforcement officers went out there, the pictures that were taken. All of that. Cost employee time out there in the field. And it comes back to. The leader of the group. And especially. With the spotlight on both of those locations, Fillmore and Jackson. I would have done more due diligence to make sure everything was done and filed correctly. And the information was getting to the right people. And then the fact that he got a separation amount of money after he cost the city a lot of money and a lot of aggravation. I think. Was not right. And the director of that department. Had to oversee all this. Had not done his due diligence to make sure everything was done correctly. Tease were crossed, eyes were dotted. Let's get on there. So make sure it's right. He also received severance pay. Which. All of this has cost this council, the city, a lot of time and money. And aggravation to the people that had to go through all this. And I think a lot of the things that we heard when people were resigning. Or quitting or being terminated. Was. The council doesn't respect them. Well, I think through all this thing we've had, a major disrespect of the council. For us to have to drag information out of the staff so we can make a right decision. Whatever decision it could be. Is a major disrespect to the council and I think the city manage. Manager's major job is to protect the council and to make sure we get the right information to me. We shouldn't have to drag it out of staff with a repeated meetings. And things like that. I'm just really disappointed that this has drugged on so long. And put the residents. And Jackson Avenue through all of this. There was lots of mistakes made. Of the good guy. He's been here 20 years. But with that 20 years experience and. Being in the building department. You would think we would have. A more. Scope of a good job in that department because of his experience. Don't think we got that. I agree with the points that the mayor brought up about our vision and our mission statement. And. I don't know what the answer is. When does it end? When does. It. When do we move on? Like I said. I think the fact that we gave Chris RoBinson any money, more than a dollar, was way too much. For everything that he called the city. That's my opinion. I don't think that anything. Robinson. There was some mistake. I think that once. We got the information. Manager said whatever he could. A lot of this starts off. Version, contractors or whatever. I think Todd has done everything that he. Could do. And I said he was on. Have any of you ever managed people? Then you understand that you can't. Watch over every person. I was a supervisor. This person made me something. I don't know about it, but as soon as I find out about it, I do something. Watch over everybody at any time. So I think once he was aware of it, That he was fine. But I'm going to get to 30 questions. You all are stating that all your emails and your photo text and all that are available. Right. I'm going to ask records request. Councilman Jackson, viewer. Peg shower. I want all the social and private media. And any. Text, any photos, any. Anything. Any communications you've had on social media? Whether private or not. And then we'll see. You kept everything. And I would like a monthly request. I'll come in tomorrow and fill out the paperwork. I want a monthly status update on every. Council. And then we put it through the city clerk in the correct manner. But I think it was fun. Because records requests have been made of council members before, and they've been ignored. Okay, you're saying that you have. And I think that's a great idea. Yeah, I think that's a great idea that you have everything I want, all private and. Social media. Yes. I have everything I have to by law. On certain private sites. So I want all the communication between the two of you, and I think it'd be great to see that with you and Mr. Morley, too. There shouldn't be any reason why. Anyone would not be willing to provide their records. I don't have anything to hide as far as the issues around the city manager. In regards to. This. Is there anything else you want to say? I heard your request. No. I don't think that anything is going to finish. Okay? I think that. Micromanage every person I know, they're everywhere. I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking for basic. No, you're laying out extreme red herring examples. You don't know what it's like. But you said something. Just to debate her. You said something that was really important. You said, I. Have. You've managed. And when you found out was something, you immediately took care of it. Agreed when you find out. That's right. I made a truck known for six months a year. When you go back and you look at when the city manager found out that. A co. Was issued that a burnt building did not get a violation and they were about to lose their property because insurance drops them. He found out. This is months before January, but I think you are personal. I'm agreeing with you. I think these are great opportunities to say we agree here. I think you're personally involved in Ellie Maze. And I think before you fire anybody that you. Have the right. You should investigate. Okay. You need to be some type of investigation. I did. And then find out that if they are, wrong, then you can terminate it and you can do whatever. I'm just following the code. And the charter. And if we need to go through, we can. The city manager serves at the council's pleasure. And at any point, at any time, we can address issues with him. Or her or whoever it is. That's all I'm looking at right now. Because that's what I'm responsible and. We are raise our right hands to do. And when our city manager, who. Has zone duties and responsibilities. When I read it. When I investigate the contract that I was a part of. And look at. Is this happening? I am not seeing it in these areas and I can expand into other areas, but for the sake of simplicity. Simply put. Brought to the city manager's attention. He had knowledge. Of the items that. We've went. The record speaks for itself. Go back to January prior and you can. See willfully. The operative word here. That I'm debating. He willfully chose not to follow up and ensure before he separated with Chris. Or Brian resigned to go. Wait a minute. Before you walk out the door, did you file that? Lien. One of five cases you have. Or ten. Did you file that lien? What would you have done different once you found out I'm not a manager? I didn't. Apply. What do you think should have been done? I don't think that's okay. Fair. I'll entertain it. I think he should have immediately. Look at his contract. Look at his agreement. He knows it. He can speak for himself. If he needs to. But to adequately supervise employees, consult with your city attorney. Step one. Talking about the lean. Step one. I called the city attorney. Hey, we got an issue. I'm ready to separate. Didn't file a lien. Obviously. That did not happen. And all the things that the city went through with the previous owner. Ignoring everything that was coming down at him. As it being a health and safety issue. I think that would have been our first priority, to get that lien in there and ignoring things that occurred at the Moonhead location as well. So. It was. Absolute situation that. Is where? Her she was getting. Selectively enforced on is the way I'd like to say it. It was selective enforcement. Hirsch was flying through the system. She's getting lanes, she's getting notice of violations. She got documentation that should have gone to the old property owner, and her name was on it. Then we had this situation where moon hut had things they did, and it was a year or so whatever. That I'd have to go back to those notes treated differently. Yes. So everyone. Has a right. I think everyone has a right in this city to be able to go by the same world. That's not what was happening. And. Even when we talked about. I asked, can I get bs and a. Well, no, we don't know how to do it. We need to look at how to get the modules where you can't see this. And you can't see that. I get that. That's fine. But you know what? I literally had to end one of this city council meetings. Ask or make a statement. Let's pay to get them in here so they can get us access to the system. And we should have never had to get that far on that little tidbit. We should have had access where we could go in and see those records. I'm sitting here looking. At. On page. 405 of the agenda item we're looking at. That says what is not included. It's number one. What is not included? Working draft documents. That were determined to be unhelpful. And created some confusion. For these reasons, those working draft documents have not been placed in the laserfish folder. That is not supposed to happen. Not supposed to happen. This right here goes into laser fish. If somebody says Kay Jackson doodle. There you all I doodled. It goes in there. So how are we going to. You're wanting our records when we don't have. We've got it right. There in writing. That we didn't keep that public record. I'm going to tell you. I've got file folders and file folders. I have messages from 20 years ago on my devices. I back everything up. To an external drive. So that I can provide what I have to provide, whether it's the city or my business. And even when I help my sister, So. Absolutely. That's what you do if you're in a position like this. They literally say in the training, you have to do it. So you know what, in this state you have to do it. Mr. Mayor, point of order. We've gone beyond 10:00 thank you. Motion to extend. Or. Anyone can leave at any point. Obviously, we all but. I'll second a motion. Okay, you got a motion by Mayor Pro Tem Kellum. Second by council member Jackson to extend at 1030. City clerk please call or vote. Council member Davis. Against. Council member Jackson. Four. May pro tam callum. Or mayor Morrison. Four and council member Willis against. Well, we have three fours, two against. Thank you. You're welcome. Eastern the Cinderella rule on you. Yeah. But three is a quorum. If they want to leave, they can leave. I wouldn't leave. But if you were holding anything back. I don't understand that. Okay. I'm agreeing. If we failed to extend, fine. But. Saying we're not allowed to meet past 10:00. Okay, so this council. Council member Davis and council member Willis. Voted against. To not extend for 20 minutes. And I assume that's to go home now. I don't feel that's right. I'm not disagreeing with the city attorney, but. City attorney? Do you have any other advice on how to talk for another 20 minutes. Are you reading? Is there any other options that we have? Can I make a motion to break the rules? I'm looking for all necessary remedies to overcome the supermajority 10:00. P.m. In the public. We're being recorded, I assume. Still, that's really important to me. But I don't want to continue unless. We have that. Mr. Mayor, part of the issue is that you brought this up. Out of the blue. Going down this road. Jackson Filmore. No. Where you're heading now, not just Jackson Fillmore, but we're. Talking about employment, correct? Yes. All right. Now, if we were talking about just Jackson and Fillmore remedying just Jackson and Fillmore. I would have been fine. But now we're talking about, and we're getting quite heated over it as well. And I think we should be stepping back because. Unless. You all discussed this before. This is the first time. I'm thinking about or even considering or looking at the city manager's employment. You said if it was remedying Jackson and Fillmore. The remedy to the problems was, as our city manager said, these employees are gone, and I'm saying. The statement was made to all who were involved are no longer here. I don't agree with that. We're on a different topic. All who were involved in film Warren Jackson are no longer here. I don't agree with that our city manager was involved, and I believe remedying it is to look at his employment. Immediately, just like our. City manager did, and we have been asked to not discuss this. I'm going to end the meeting because. We're going to. No one's stopping you from leaving the meeting. The meeting? The. Rule is the meeting is over. It should be adjourned. I asked to clarify if we. Can break the rules. If not, I'm not going to push back any further. Okay. Well. The meetings adjourned. I assume city attorney. Okay. And to discuss scheduling a meeting. Is that a sunshine law violation? Just for scheduling purposes only. I want to do a meeting as fast as we possibly can. And I would call it. I don't care what you disagree with. I'm not. Asking. No, I don't. Yeah, I'll walk out now. Okay, good. Change the quorum. I said I'm willing to follow the rules. It's just that the meeting is. Over. It's accepted. We're not having a meeting, first of all. Let me make it. Okay. You're being disruptive. City attorney. I'm going to. Go ahead and adjourn the meeting, okay? Meeting adjourned.