Good, good afternoon everyone. I call this meeting to order. It is 4:10 p.m. and we are at the City of Cape Canaveral City Council and Culture and Leisure Services Board joint workshop
meeting at the City Hall Council Chambers located at 100 Pulk Avenue, Cape Canaveral, Florida. again call this meeting to order. And with that, could we ask our chair of the culture
and leisure services board please lead us in the pledge to uh take allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the spaces one
nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice. fireball. >> Thank you, Chairperson Braville, vice chair, and the entire culture and leisure services board, our city council and staff for coming together for this uh joint workshop meeting. I'm excited
about this. We've done this with another board in the past, the PNZ, and uh I know it's taken some patience and time to get this on the schedule. Just want to thank you for taking time to come together and bring this matter before us. So this time I will I think our city
clerk will call the role in the order you see fit. City clerk, would you please call the role? >> Council member King >> here. >> Mayor Prom Jackson >> here. >> Mayor Morrison >> here. >> Council member Shiaak
>> here. >> And council member Willis >> here. and um with the culture leisure and services board members. Um first >> I take the >> I know I didn't know alphabetical order.
Okay. Mary Mosquira >> here. >> Sorry if I mispronounced your name. Mary Lant >> here. >> James Soie >> here. >> Brad Pel >> here. >> Betsy Ron >> here. >> Virginia Scott
>> here. And do I have everybody? Yes. Okay. Thank you. >> Did I not say >> I did? I did. Sorry. >> Thank you. All are here. Thank you
again. This time we do have public participation. Thank you to our community for who's with us today. If anyone would choose to speak, we do ask that you please come forward now. >> Thank you, chair.
>> If you'll please state your name. Please my name is Bernie London. I will give on uh full body to patient. Uh we also have no agenda. I wasn't actually prepared to speak. I I go to an exercise class at
the community center with Andrew Swain. He invited me to come here and I thought I'd just kind of participate. Uh but as I was sitting here, I realized that um like really similar a lot uh since it opened. I don't know, it's been a couple
three years. I uh I joined the $50 membership and I ran that for about a year and uh with the openings climate pick and so on may island and it more convenient to go there for the gym part
and I normally go I I for the gym every day of the week. And you can't believe that you have to be separate because there was a close called sunage and holidays and that was mentioned by how speak uh for the most
part I uh I really enjoyed I I I go there almost every day of the week on center uh exercising uh I recently picked up on raet ball um so for me it's
uh it's good um the right time we exercise class with Jenny. Uh, and I I go three days a week with her and I think she may she does some like jazz ties and some other types I might go to. Uh I think she's in gem for the the uh
for the city and I think that they should encourage uh her to uh continue for the PH. >> Thank you, Mr. Lennon. I want to Would anyone else choose to speak during public participation?
Seeing none, we'll go ahead and close that and check with our city clerk's office. That's Mr. Bernie Linen, Oaklane, take resident, city of Cape Canaveral. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. And now the public question.
As long as the council has no issue, I'm fine. Please burning. Why do you choose Planet Fitness over the C5 building? Granted, I understand the building is closed on
Sundays and government holidays. Are there any other reasons? Uh well, that uh the dentist is probably most important. I'm retired and I don't have those calendar. I just it's like I can't avoid going to the gym and I know when I
was paying the $50 a month that uh it seemed like more often than not when I go there they're closed and it's like oh I forgot and then it's like well it's a Monday near holiday um and because I spoke with you earlier today just uh I think it's probably very
difficult because the city to compete with finite fitness and the shiny uh area uh I cut to further quick make it a set that it's maintained better. I don't know if it's really a maintenance issue. I think it's more like planet fitness,
you know, they buy millions of equipment and it's good quality equipment and they um they have staff that's constantly cleaning it. I think I'd mentioned to you that when I was uh for the gem care at seed pie that I was getting out of
like sting rash and some kids was because you know lock I can't say so I just don't have that issue when I thank you very much for your candidness.
Thanks. >> Thank you. Are there any other questions this time of the board or council? Seeing none, we'll go ahead and bring it back to item for discussion here. Title of this is a review and discussion of
the current fee schedule for the community center and the city's participation in third-party insurance compensation programs. providing for the culture and leisure services board and staff with direction on department level
fee strategies going forward. So this time I'd like to ask our city manager to provide an overview and any comments he has. That's thank you and thank you all members of the culture of pen jerless inviting the board for your hard work as
the council knows and we prepared you several months ago for the needs you worked out uh the advisory board has to do a lot of work on this project and as recommendations to make and just want to have some discussion with the council. Um, so while unofficially it comes with
note for several months, you've had a week to look at backup documentation that there's a lot of information that has been provided you. And so I think I would just uh lay it out there that no decision has to be made this evening. U there is a willingness to meet again as
seen in order action should another a workshop be required if the council still wants to ponder and review some information. So uh if that be the case and we'll get to a point where you feel comfortable in stopping and going to region meetings go on a day and then that's going to we can address and come
up with a tape uh you know to meet again and other than that uh that was uh just my winning comments. Thank you city manager. Well, as our city manager said, and I
think at this time, um, let's open it up. No particular order. Would any of the board members or council members have anything to say? Yes, Council Member Willis.
One of I have one question, Molly. U, a lot of this is predicated on the insurance. Has anybody reached out to start any kind of negotiation on those insurance reimbursements?
I noticed in part of this uh where it was uh for I think Obam we would have to reduce it to match the other insurance companies have. So to me it seems we would need to
start as a baseline with what are we going to get from the insurance companies? What possibly can we get and then kind of build from there. So be spoken to um all three of the
insurance of the providers at one time or another um to discuss the what I call the discrepancy between the counseling e schedule and what they were paying us. When I first came on as director I was
told these were non-negotiable that are not there but they are somewhat negotiable. Um, and the only one that I was able to successfully get to make any amendments whatsoever was silver sneakers. I just think sing I think it
only went up I only 50 cents as far as the daily rate and the couple dollars by the budget maximum. The what we're working with here is very much plate type agreements that they do
with everyone. So when it The reason that we really needed counsel to help guide us on this was to a bring you guys to understand um that these
companies are they're they're kind of gaining a little bit of um notoriety in the gym circles not just municipal gyms but in uh private sea gyms as well. um William Bars brought to me paid an
article that was and I love one of the business magazines where a lot of places are rethinking their commitments with silver seekers because they are seeing such dramatic loss in what they have anticipating for revenue actually get. So this is a conversation
that's happening on at least a a virtual level um in different areas and uh with the city attorney's guidance. One of the things that needs to really be addressed before we even
>> let me >> get into what these people are willing to pay us is the fact that we have a set fee schedule and these guys are probably never going to take. So, we're going to
either need to amend the code or make amendment of contingent on what they're willing to be. But one of the companies approached us in I think July of 2025 and was requesting uh that we sign your
affidavit um attesting to the fact that they were paying the same rate andor lower than anyone else. Unfortunately, that was Gobbley Huffton that was actually giving us the brief that censor
Rley, but I think they turn it over to the city attorney to explain the nuances associated with the code and maybe that can help steer that portion of that that decision. There's so many
layers to this. Since I I feel back, I'll hand this over to Kennedy. >> Yes. You >> good, man. Good evening. I mean, as I see based on the information that
they're provided by the staff, I mean, the first issue for council is whether or not the city even wants to speak to third party insurance uh programs. the current rate set doesn't have any um accommodations for those programs when
those programs are actually provided but a monthly fee per member that is less fair um the fee um that is kind of established by the city so that I've been established over these years
um as able been able to work with these third party insurers to sign them up. Um, of course, it's it's benefiting the city as I see it from attracting members to participate
in the facility, but um technically the rates that are being provided are um significantly less than one month of rates that are capability late schedule for use of facility. Well, that's the first issue is if
working when the capsling thought to work with these third party providers and it's so uh the staffing pain manager opened up discussions to see what those
rates would be. Um my preference is that those third party insurance um contracts be and sit counts appropriate. So you know what the negotiated rate is I and
commence termination whether it's have my ask question please we have third party insurance sorry Agiri but has to be recorded I guess in third party insurance we
approximately 600 members. Is that correct? Yes. Out of 1,020 total shakes or into this data, that's 60% of the members are
even insurance. But I just want everyone to realize how large and percentage of that. Just for the record to make sure we're on the same page. Chair Perll was you were referencing the data. Do we know what page that is on? I want to make
sure we Okay. >> One of the things that um this board this board met on a Thursday and there was some requests made for some additional documentation. So when you came in there was four sheets of paper in front of you. Um, one of those is a
lightweight and city cape kind of communities at a membership and daily check-ins. So as of tune 6. >> So that gives you everything from the um membership numbers for all of our
work rooms, our monthly check-ins, our third party member check-ins, our daily pass checkins, and then the number of registered users that we have at our system. Thank you.
>> A question on that registered users in the system at very ensure rapid safe. So that includes being Chinese people, the daily profits and all membership ties that are
purchased. Correct. be on when we opened the very first day the line was around the building for people registering. So that indeed people that have probably never stepped foot with building again after the be said would
we all remove people out of the system. So the registered users includes everything of the above and to include people that have come and visited and kind of times and they never come
back and don't have a phone anymore. >> That's great. But she is we can continue I think on with the questions. Council member Willis I know you going to originated the question and we've had a few after did you
>> Yes. Board member Lustan. >> Lustan. Yes. Uh in with question. um daily check ends right for
oh that's the year fiscal year pointing toward 25 roughly 6 + 5 + 700 checkins which uh to the work uh with the daily limits
>> okay so are you under which heading check-ins by thirdparty members for the year 2425. >> Yes, the people that are members of the Ash Fitness program, we had almost 6,000 check-ins by those members. Or renew
active, we had almost 5,000 check-ins by those members. And for Silver Sneakers, we had almost 7,000 checkins. So is that a number of check-ins for um 600
third party a people? Yes. >> Okay. >> Those are the checkins by those members sh and for 600 people or roughly however many had between 20 So I might have missed that board member Lucent. Your question was that header
checkins by third party adding those three up >> is the thousand checkins. So that's how many are pupil >> in fiscal year 24 I guess starting September.
>> So for those that are looking at the bas there's as of the second of this >> there are 304 silver sneakers members. So for the fiscal year of 2425, October
1, 2024 to September 30th, 2025, out those 304 people in whatever combination therein came to the facility up 7,000. >> Okay, that's that's combat break. Yeah.
Now, those numbers at the top and one of the things that I've tried to convey in multiple agenda items because this has been presented in a lot of different ways as we were trying to work through this is that this is a moving talk.
When I logged in a couple weeks ago, it was 298 silver sneakers. >> So, it changes by the day. So out of the silver sneakers, the silver sneakers
members used to facilitate almost 7,000 times in a year. Okay. So the 6,948 the 7,000 silver sneakers into the check-ins over the course of a year divided by the 304 that generated that number is about little
less than 23 in a year. visit about twice a month. >> Okay. Thank you. I knew some of that was probably far along in their people's heads. I just wanted to make sure I got it. >> We are moving targets. >> So, and and so many things. affect what
makes a person decide to go to a gym one day and mouth >> and then >> and the city only gets compensated by hash business radioactive and silver stingers um for the first 10 visits on it
as >> I think if you were to mark a piece of paper that's got How did community seven membership insurance and the provider ad sheet it's out
page two of the sack shop I think it see >> attachment >> I think that might be the wrong useful piece of information that he been able to compile on this
in transation >> because the B page will tell you what Molly just said how much that uh they owe on this age revisit and what kinds of monthly compensation is analysis that's it's kind of in a lawn
>> yeah so first graph >> landing um that's gaining >> okay so we're getting I think oriented here and we're Vice Chair Ron is referencing. It's the the first graphic in the packet that was provided, not one
of the additional tweets and holding it up was helpful. Okay, back to you, Vice Chair Ron. We're with you now. Please what what Molly was um so gracious to put together because we worked fonder
was so much about data last year on on the second third and fourth pages what we did was to uh look at the number of checks. Obviously when you're looking at a system that's not be able to
really um crunch data well dust can't do that. So it's rather labor intensive. So some assumptions need to be made but uh we did look at check-ins um by month for one week of the month and then um had to
make an assumption that it would be um to have a vote on a whole month. It shows the average and the estimated annual amount that we made for each insurance program based on the actual number of checkins
that occurred. Um some of them it's very obvious when you look at the number of champions um specifically in the I'm keeping it green provider and very
specifically in the silver sneakers which is range four which is our largest insurance grouping that the majority of these insurance programs are being used during the January February, February,
March, maybe April time thing. So, we all can know what's happening uh with those. And um as as I looked into it more and talked to people over there at the C5
um you can come from anywhere in the country and out and go to any facility that takes your insurance and you don't have to resign up or anything. So if I had
silver sneakers in New Jersey, I could come down to Skate Canaveral for a one and just use my silver sneakers. I would have to retell Silver Sneakers any I could just pre reuse my same map, you know what we want to say.
Um and so that's why it's very portable for them. Um hence the reason when you see that I think big increase in numbers during the snow season. So on the last page on the fourth page
of the pack the college of the great um >> what is the French sheet I wouldn't be oh I see okay I'm good there >> towards the bottom as to um if you were to compare that silver sneakers or that insurance population
um with a let's say we just got rid of the insurance program alto together >> and those people had to pay regular rates that others was not covered by insurance we have to pay. How much revenue is the city losing
and that was that bottom line of annual difference based on the actual this debt the city was paid is around and as you say it's a moving target. So it's between4 and $50,000 a year we're
losing by having people who use the insurance programs. So once we saw this information we kind of started to look at what are the options and that's where we kind
of came to the idea well this is bigger than easy decisions if you made it but to kind of boil that down to what are your options um I think there's three options pretty much on the table one is we don't make
the insurance at all Number two, we had a discussion with on what the insurance programs are really aiming at is to get people to use their
program as a cardio program to better your health. So therefore, uh hopefully you'll use their insurance less, right? So we're only really responsible for any type of cardio that they do.
Well, Derek, ever been to the C5 on most weight days? You will find that majority of people there are not necessarily in the weight room with cardio equipment, but they're playing. And so that was where we came to. The
second thought was, well, if the staff could manage it, that's the big F. Could we split the membership into a gym membership versus a court membership? court.
>> Court that meaning that you if you wanted just court membership because you have young people who like to come after just live >> then I could go upstairs and log on the track or they don't necessarily live but
they want to come live basketball for you know if it's we have volleyball whatever you could just buy a court pass and actually if the way we had changed the feast ential for an app would be it would be less to buy pass than to buy a
full membership to the fall. Yeah, I could. So that was like option number two. Select four option numbers please just leave it as it is today and it is what it is and with all no change
but all of them will affect how the fee schedule is configured and that's where we ran into a problem coming up with a fee schedule that we could you know propose with the council to have as a work key schedule that would be
equitable to all people um and part of problem two which I guess I I mentioned it since it didn't come out but we had looked into the problem being we
having allowed insurance users of the C5 who are non- city residents but the insurance program does not allow us to discriminate against the presidents of an insurance
So, um that was a problem because um I guess I can say trauma. My husband's experiencing school here every day playing football. Um at least half or or
of people coming to use the C5 tickle ball especially are not in K. Dam meanly is on Popal Beach. >> Does he have any idea how many pickle ballers use the se? Uh
>> well he said that yesterday and today now granted it's colder but people were still playing outside of Nancy Hansen there were 50 and that's really older and about the amount that it can be managed here but
that's it can be anywhere on a regular day said there usually will be about 20 to 30 up to about 50. So, so you looked at awesome related tiered approach
whereas you could have upstairs only covered by interest then you could have court pass that is paid outside of the insurance then you could possibly have a premium
membership covers every vet >> right we we had actually um in July I I don't think Okay, I'll see. >> So, these were the minutes that were requested. Um, I provided in
I know your name. Yeah. in uh the he was his present to the for services advisory board on July 31st and what I provided 351
the minutes of the >> where they discuss that I'm sorry to interrupt you know there's what's mic you rubbing just for the audio or I don't want to go ahead
>> so the Um the highlighted section >> this one. >> Yep. The green. >> Thank you. Um, >> the highlighted section was the result of that um >> discussion with
uh one of the challenges that we've always had is this and to to speak to >> um that point historically this city has always had some very differential rates
and those differential rates recognize not only seniors but resident versus non-resident president and that is that is all the way back into P schedules from the beginning of the schedules which was at the 70s for uh the Nancy
Hansen. So uh we've streamlined it slightly. Um if you look at some of the examples that were provided um within uh attachment five
and you'll see one where it's this huge spreadsheet with a half dozen different things. Believe it or not, that used to actually be even more spread out because for every one of those categories, it also had a even though the numbers
were the same, it was differentiated by what sport of playing is what. So the the more differential you're letting that you put out, the more complicated it is for not only the the people that are using it staff, but
it also makes it difficult to track and difficult to predict. So when the board reviewed these different types of structures, they landed with the simplified differential structure which still
recognized the differences between the resident and a non-resident and a senior versus a nonseenior but it screens a little bit subst Should I find well
begized? So I'm sorry about this. >> Hey, there's enough patience there in the uh what do you call it in the one page manual >> is it
that is proposed. It's uh just before the color the color in the soul scholar section. the title of the attachment five it
actually I thought it was attachment >> it starts on a PD9 and I think >> I'm touched by >> eight numbers yeah And this is actually a good when we get there I what I think
it might is a master page number because there's different page numbers on here different ones different attachments but Google just sharing ideas >> I think or whatever we think is best but
>> attached to >> it's item number one >> or page yes >> is the the culture and your services. >> Item number two, >> tacket
>> July 31st meeting. >> July 31st meeting item number right >> the agenda summary. Okay. >> So if you flip through that section >> in the top right hand corner it says number two. It's actually two because
this is from that name. They were not ask It's like structure that is that >> is the one I'm sitting that that has red
>> one which the one which >> brief was an differential structure a Alex for photos of viewers. Chris before I went to take Excuse me. Wild
top of the thing I believe Mr. as well as >> who uses the facility for Woods coating that research approximately 70% is from 32920
uh 15% from 32931 and other code you can all other is approximately 18% comm so 70% of the facility Ian Chinese
people I guess it's all three angulars come from >> the only problem with that data it was from a survey and only 100 people responded as we know so many more people who use
it and you can see from the respondents that the majority of kernel residents who got the survey entry signed Dang it. where we can pull it from this to say no. >> Well, we that's when some of our
database show like president versus nonres. We do have by the worship is the incor 50,000 aris. >> You mean if we were to take the >> where we kind of got stuck on the differential schedule?
>> Well, I guess not really quite as um it was get us partially there by breaking it out but not get a great insurance program. Um and I would even know that the C2 weather we could get out of those
programs that I'm too long on duty in the 26 and once in seven we might have stuck in Los Angeles. So current um 2026 with Timmy we have them called the 30
um returnation in this without felt for optimum it is September 1st and for ash fitness it is September >> Spanish okay so I want to
That's right. Earlier nine. >> So, so earlier heard heard >> that that >> even though these insurance companies are supposed to pay a certain amount per >> attendee, >> they're not they're not paying that. >> Correct.
>> Correct. >> Exactly what they're going to pay. >> Okay. that they're not paying the rate that we sell, >> right? Yes. >> For the insurance company that Okay. Okay. All right.
>> Basically, basically using the round figures. We charge $5 say per day. What? >> Okay. insurance pays. And we get them reasonable 60 days.
Question I do have once the insurance participant uses their 10 visits per month. White hates on the 11th visit, do we get full money or how does that >> we get it?
>> It's Chris have so we can train. trap that >> that's what we're saying track that I would have to pull the individual champions for every single member and cat how many titans
>> but my point is our computer system at the C5 building when Bob Smith has played pickle ball le 10 times in the mountain when he comes to the 11th time his band still works
>> and we were shar we can't We can't cut. >> No, no. Yes. >> Let's um And I just want to back up here >> that this is great. I think >> this is great. I think >> we are all asking questions. No particular order. And as we get through
those, I do want to let everyone know if you choose, we'll give everyone a chance at least couple minutes at minimum uh to to speak today. So with that for the questions, we'll keep them coming. Council member Shore yet. >> Have we looked
>> Have we looked into what other gyms and facilities are doing with these programs? I know >> uh few years ago I was enrolled in one of these through my health insurance. It was actually health nonare and you go to a bunch of different places. Some of them planet fitness you
could use the the weight like exercise equipment you could use. There are other amenities. There are little massage chairs, that kind of stuff. I know LA fitness, one of them has raet ball. If you had one of those programs, you got to use the gym equipment. If you want to
use the raet ball or other amenities, they charge you extra for that. >> I I kind of think maybe we should do something like that if everybody we Hey, you know what? If you're silver sneakers, you can use the gym. >> If you want to do pick one, it's a buck a day or whatever number we come up with. just it just
>> and that's where the basic membership versus the premium membership came in because in in talking to the insurance companies what they said is whatever your basic membership package is what our members have to be able to >> okay >> so if I remove something out of well we
we define our own basic membership if that does not include a gymnasium pick or anything else and that would be a a tiered print to that and to the people that are within the
insurance companies, we would let them know what act the companies themselves know. Okay, we scaled down other basic membership. This is what it includes. It meets all of your criteria for this, but there is going to be additional fee for
the classes. Those are the contractors. Those are those are not included. And then we could also charge separate people for the >> use of the Jim main. Yeah. >> Is that is that change now or do we have to wait till the new contract contract?
>> Just a thought. I mean to my understanding we can let him know just go with whatever. >> I mean there's there's nothing in the contracts that prohibits us of changing
what our own membership submits. We just have to notify them if any changes. We've been so many days before I think. >> Okay. Okay. >> I don't where you were going with that is we would still get paid by the insurance
company today. So there would still be that discrepancy between what people on the insurance program pay what people not on the insurance program. And so we must still go back to the issue that the city attorney brought up. Theft is still
have to change immediately, >> but at least um would recoup uh some of the costs. >> Yeah. I mean, is this on? >> Is this on? It couldn't seem fair to me as a as a
Cape Canaveral resident that I would have to pay more than or that the city collects more money out of me when they get off these insurance companies. You're only getting a buck from insurance company and I have to pay $5. >> And that's again general comment when it first opened. I checked it out. It was
free for the first few months and then >> you know it's I think it's $40 a month and I can go to Planet Fitness open all the time for 15. So that's reason why I don't do it. We also have to take to respect
the RF 100 person survey. If those services were not covered by the third party, they would not use the facility. I don't know how many people use the facility. Let's say 50 people a day for
pickle ball. Wherever they go, there's prehel ball all hit pre ball in the convenience street ball line upon this island etc. So a loss of that is another
loss of contention. The only thing is okay having done a little bit more uh undercover investigation on the survey of people were filled out um
people who said that they wouldn't come and they had to pay for people who were disgruntled that we didn't want to take their insurance and just said no I'm not coming even though they probably could.
because that is what pays for it. I mean, you know, it's understand but thank to our family that talked about and and I have some other people that hoping with including where my family lives up north um especially
silver sneakers. I felt leave their but I'm not sure but I know some of the states have dropped completely um because it is on carried by most of the Medicare currency programs cover
carry silver swingers and it has become such a huge loss to um all the YMCA in one state who's drafted them many of the other um smaller indig Jim step secretly. So it is definitely a going
on. >> That's just wonder or are you talking about the entire cardio fitness insurance company research? the silver sneakers is the largest one
that's um offered through Medicare participles show there that um you can sign up to those via the um um aiding or you know through our vending that I'll you to in a special
discounted um health program if you're part of some organization. you're part of the goss, you know, so you don't even have to be retired or on that chair or anything like that listening up for uh the radio
or the ancest people have to pay to play pickle ball and sign, you know, the house. Yes, she met >> play ball in her own. >> Well, whatever they mean outside.
>> Yeah. And then basketball. We have basketball and outside too, right? No. >> Well, sign passport was shared. There's all out there, but okay. >> Free. >> That's big. And so they get late for
free at the C5, but they're charged at Canson. And if you exceed 11 visits, we're just going to let you come on in. Okay. Okay. And how many of these um um uh people that attend that are part of
these programs are from Cocoa Beach. You mentioned Cocoa Beach earlier. Um chair >> pre is approximately 20%. Well, what we have on our stuff that Molly dear is um
she about shut down all the daily checkins are not a resident from the res >> but so so >> then again you don't know like time of day or anything and I don't know how to
get you know later in the day probably those people are born residents you know after work evolved. Um >> but I mean I mean with what with what >> one of the data sets that I put together as of 10 and this is how much things
fluctuate consistently every time I build the mic iterative asked to pull numbers the numbers are different every five but as of 109 there was 284 active silver sneakers numbers out of that that 284
168 were stier residents and five ability were adult residents. One way you can be eligible for silver seekers is if you have a disability and see Medicare. So for the most part that is typically all just all seniors but very
few exceptions. And then for business on 10th we had 133 advers of those were just adult residents. And then uh as of 109 we have 181 uh Bana
members 96 >> sorry 181 active members and 96 of those were senior residents and 12 of those were residents. So the vast majority of the people that are using these
name is president Well, we aren't allowed to discriminate >> between Russo and I used to accept. >> Then that was more Beverly State's question. I just want to make sure we're staying on track. I think that
>> did that answer your question? >> Um, >> Betsy did because I was just curious to pick a ball for free on me which have to pay to play at our side. know and we've been selling those facilities at North
just refuse the insurance but they're full service you know they can't afford to provide the services for free you know but the gym you know and as a courtesy to our residents and the visitors
you know you can use your insurance but everything else do they have to make a reservation uh to play inside pickle that was the slowing that would be fighting. We try to do
first come first serve on as many days as possible coach just out of fairness with the time limit. Um we don't do time limits anymore. That was worse. Um especially in terms of regular stats and
the way pimple ball was played, it's not like tennis where you know we could have two to four people. They just go back and forth. They'll take a break if it's hot or they take a break or some water and then they'll go better at it. Pickle ball rotates. So when you play
your hit, once you finish that particular match, everybody rotates. So it's more of a social thing. said you would be sitting there waiting for your time rotation and not the fight and a staff member walks
up to you and says officer it's been two hours your time's up even though you haven't even got a chance to play you've been there socializing waiting pretty much trying to play so big world doesn't really it very difficult to manage in terms of it especially very busy day
>> a couple points >> let's we sorry for try to um >> maybe we can take a break here shortly and we can we can work through the questions after you but I want to make sure I know council member Willis has a
question and we're sort of just talking freely here but planting the seed after you we'll try to out as balls play as cool people they're for there to rank very similar concepts the piece that
insurance unaccepted at Nancy Hansen is there's no cardio clipping at Nancy Hansen. There's no sh that there's no this and that's why insurance amounts >> wants to make
charge boards when I'm saying I don't think we should deny the residents. >> But anyway, that's sorry. Yeah, I think we should we'll move into the ideas. Let's keep working through. These are great questions. Council member Willis, we are we collecting a court pass
>> for C5. No, not today. >> We have a do. Okay. >> Yes. >> The differential structure that these were these were proposals. So as to how
to prior insurance solutions >> for Lithia's power collecting insurance which doesn't tolerate either to if we were to utilize it insurance for
only the upper level at C5 we're redeeming our loss then we collect the court at based on residents that sorry
>> well I mean that's what I said earlier have tears we have we'd have the upper level that is that's the only place insurance applies >> nowhere elsewhere else >> because that's the Kanye area >> and then we that we charge court then if
somebody wants both >> they have to pay the other seat premium. Yeah, they faint free. >> Oh, you can't buy all cart except for if you came on. You can put your silver sneakers upstairs and their court pass. >> Yeah, you can
>> if you want to just do it all once >> and you have Yeah. Well, you can you can even sell you can even sell a premium that it's both placed >> and it breaks down daily that we had put together in that same
clearing that were a lot of the ideas that we ran through was like um selling a courty um because um it's raining and people come over to the C5 to play today. If
you had a membership at Nancy Anen, you would have to pay to play indoors just for that day. Go a little like that. But they were trying to trying to kind of give some benefits and some nuance to some uh different fee schedules um
possibly even if we to you know decrease it. Should we now or do we agree to get rid of BHIS give a bigger break to the res if you were going to say we just I'm
losing money if it be pool bus to say we could decrease the senior resident rate. So there's there's so many different options that be looked at. I know it's confusing. >> Well, if we're if we're minimizing
with the insurance and we're collecting court fee that could be discounted by resident, non-resident, senior, whatever it might be, but we're getting past that. Oh, I've been more than 10 times
than 11. I mean for the court for the court. I I know if we're limiting where the insurance applies then we're not losing as much. >> He also has to recognize how do we
administer that with our current computer system in the bill. Do we use um wristbands? uh how do we if that's we ran for that idea uh council and that was a big issue
how do we >> well to be honest I would like to see this with salt press on that but I would like to see the app >> and and see how we could if we can >> make it work
>> chair put on and so >> could We would using the software with handles give it a discount s race if we went away with insurance.
>> If we want that's a molly question. >> Well, we get the network of this patrol inside the building. That's going to be the bigger challenge. Um, anything we do with rack desk is just going to involve a week or so of transitions to change
all the information, update the fee schedules and rework the um membership packages. And since everyone, you know, he might join today, Anthony might join the next day
when your membership phased out and we'll transfer new. So it'll be it'll be a process to to get everything where to walk the well with the controlling space or is we change it's that's going to be
so they get the same price. >> Yeah. See, if we if we said, "Okay, no more of this. You use it 11 times and you're paying this minimal amount and then you're just running free." Or we
use a court pass, which the court passes, I think we should have those anyway because it gives flexibility how you use how you want to use the the stick. a lot going across both facilities though as that should just be
segmented by when you're in this building or you're in this building. It should be by sport I would think. Um and if we simply name our residents that are seniors a discount to make it
you know this hyperbole for them. We're not going to lose them with coming. And I do believe that we would still have our snow farmers that will attend and I I heard you all saying there's free over
at Merit Island. There's three courts around. However, a lot of them don't want to drive to Merit Island and play pickle ball. If it's a a reasonable amount, they would probably pay it is my guess. What do you think, Betsy? You've
been kind of researching that. Well, I I think we call for residents on drugs pickle ball earring James outside all the time and mine place inside all the time. I think they also probably say
that a lot of it because it's a social thing, you end up picking and playing because it's the real creepy like pipe and the level of of um experts that each robot.
So going to play at Merit Island, you're not going to go by yourself or if you have four people, well then it's not the same as playing with the group of people you playing with every day of those 20 or 30 that you see
there. So it's it's possible if we had that >> if we had that we had that correctly for our snowbirds and our and our >> visitors to the area that still attend
>> but we wouldn't have to give our service away after 11 visit 11 visits. >> Let's do this. >> Let's do this. >> Let's take a break. >> Let's take a break. It's 5:15 now, I think. U >> 5 10 minutes once we're all back in
here, we can get started or started back. try to we're got starting to get in some ideas and um um >> we can come back together here and reconvene try to wrap up any questions
like city manager said this is um um >> this is a a big problem and I did not say it earlier but I'm really thankful for the culture leisure services board I did watch some of those meetings this been going on for several months of county and year and our city staff going
back bringing forward. We have learned so much because of what which the sport has done and uh today I don't want to um set the wrong expectation. I think we are going to make progress today and
obviously it's difficult. meaning but let's take a break come back and I think I got some ideas as well and we will make sure everyone >> 5 no later than 5:25
>> if we Thank you. 5:30 p.m. We just took a recess in our joint uh workshop here, city council and the culture and leisure services advisory board. We've uh heard a brief overview and we've been asking questions kind of in no particular order as they
come up and working off each other's questions. I do want to just at this time as we're working through my hope as we get through my hope is >> as many questions as we can and then we started already getting through some ideas and that's appreciated but >> and that's appreciated but
>> board member Stoy would you just maybe working left or right or we can start with or we can start with chairl >> just a couple minutes each of us or >> couple minutes of time you need less on your your thoughts at this point if you have any questions if you have and we
can circle and come all the way through. >> Okay. How about conjure? Okay. Thank you very much. Um, yes, I I play I always stay there handstands work out just about daily at the NC5 occasionally play
indoor pickle ball there. It's two different groups over there, but the both groups are very loyal to their location because as you said, it's the most social sport ever. people uh have great relationships and they go and they see their friends and they enjoy their
friends and we were just talking about this. I believe that uh and sepot I mean u silver sneakers pays for my workout at the gym and I pay a membership over dancing has I'm happy to pay the uh the daily or monthly fee over dancing
dancing for the ball and I guess and by the way I have to apologize because I'm going to do some more research on this at 6:00 because there's a natural so I'm going to sneak out six but I'll research in Zap.
>> The um the point I wanted to make was if we instituted this idea of a court sheet on top of uh is separate separate from the third party who's going to pay for the workout. It's my uh theory, my
belief that most of the people who play there on a regular basis would gladly pay the court fee just like I gladly court at Nancy An. and they would do that rather than go play somewhere else because even though you can play for
free at most of the convuls and Kowanas and many of these other places um their group isn't there and uh they don't want to they have to call people to have them come over and play and and arrange that whereas at C5 or Nansky Anson you just
show up any any time from 8 in the morning till noon uh at Nancy Anson seven days a week and every day that C5 is open you just show up is your battle. You put your battle in the D rack. You play with Bit there and a good time you have like so uh I think they would pay
that additional court peak. They'll they'll complain about it because they're humans and they know they'll complain but I think rather than go somewhere else most people will pay that court and that would make up for some of the short call that you have now.
>> Thank you. you fashion at C5 staying before >> yeah you're already paying court fee at Nansa but at C5 if you instituted a new a new court fee that doesn't exist right now it >> I believe most of those people would send you to um pay
>> let's say the fee like would your outdoor courts be including the indoor courts >> no >> doesn't >> but she got it all I mean you got to depend what happens. >> Yeah. Do you run into the same people at
all places? >> Uh it's mostly two separate groups. There's a little bit of overlap. Um when it's raining, the people come indoors. When it's super nice weather, some of the outdoor people will come indoor people come out, but most of the time
it's two separate groups. Um and for different reasons people some people prefer indoors some people prefer outdoors and uh and they tend to stay in their groups and um so yes
>> yes thank you >> board member mascara >> yes on this I was thinking that as group is talking about to mean and basic services and core
auction. We know that we will recoup some money, but we don't know how much whether a re a whole lot or not. And really, the only other option perhaps might give you is to not be able to have
have the insurance to be used uh at the gym. But then we know I'm going to like leave or like she said they may complain but still come back to you because it's very convenient. But I was thinking that perhaps whatever we come up with with
the separate uh between becoming a court option and the basic services that we'll see what happens after a year see how much we recode and see whether it's a whole lot because I'm sure the base of
being up on our budget as we try to do our budgets each year and after that year seeing how much we be too. If it's really too low, then we can think about not having offering insurance
and but also at the same time do a lot for something that we could do to make them want to stay. But us all for two years and that way we would gly war Dana
as we go along. see how much we reach from K or not and then we can move on and see whether we have to use the option of pulling back the streets and perhaps we can just do a lot of several months and break Columbus shuttles for
um residents versus non-residents uh but the general condition >> that that is excellent thank you I adding in this the time nothing's permanent can test different things board member loose stand
>> told so far everything that's been said I agree with. Um and I just think just like the class got sugared if and correct me if I'm wrong Lolly because I don't know for 100% but all the extra classes they all cost us the same amount
right uh >> we know those are done by independent contractors. Oh, so they can charge and name charge big deal services for bots. Uh but self also offer monthly
afternoon face like that the 75 the nature of the fire and how okay well anyway I am against uh removing what I consider to be the nicest thing and insurance company has
ever asked me and that is a free jar um that you know you gota you own it and then Um I'm in trading uh just starting simple and measuring the benefits and uh
having that we go so and w that's it. Uh uh question. What is the membership fee for the Nancy court? >> Probably the state. >> Okay.
>> And fine. >> Okay. >> Yes. high and mollies working up to full. There's it's a lot, but for a vessel in senior year, it's $2 eggs or $16 a month. Um, and then there's an
annual fee to give you that. Then it's different if you're non-resident and if they're not a senior. So those numbers I don't know how they will have all that. >> All right. So the residents pay $2 a day to play for $16 a month.
>> Yes. >> Okay. And that's every day of the week at the wits of orange. >> Correct. The office is opening. It's not open at all on Sunday, right? >> And some open until then on Saturday. There are a lot of people who come to Nancy after 5:00 when the office closes
and they play for free. I've kept a lot and to be honest with you, it's a lot of young people who work during the day, right? They're not lucky to be retired. And uh so they come in the evenings, they play for free. Um and you figure out a way to charge them double your
income. Not really. You added two result. >> So do you want to say something lower? Okay. So it's a differential fee structure. $2 for senior daily, $2 or
$16 for senior monthly and one6 for senior annual $4 daily 32 a month for each person 52 annual for non-residents is $4 32 and
352 respective lang non residency 648 and 528 for adults non-residents And then it gets into the children and first responders are uh and first responders pay the same way
as our senior husbands. That's almost too much for me. I'm kidding right then as uh so we're talking $2 a day for the seniors here in the residence which is $16 a month and
that that comes out to eight days. How many days would you stay are our afficionados of pickle wall actually a week easily 25 days. So so when I pay you $16 >> 25 I can you know I I might play 25
times. So my cost is way under a dollar >> a count 50 cents. >> Oh yeah. So right so it's a great that's a gra. >> So so there is an opportunity there to raise those rates >> so that something be
>> it will always raise you know and every love and >> to me the camaraderie that you're talking about is price. >> Absolutely. >> So why not charge something that is going to be more profitable for the city
the taxpayers all of us. Yeah. >> Okay. So ret might and in the membership fee for hands enhancing we could be um make that equitable more equal to the membership to play indoors but the C5
>> right >> so so if somebody wanted to play on Nancy Hatsome or C5 it wouldn't matter they're playing the same rates what she car >> so how many this is the question how many of you were entering the notion of
raising the rate to play on the sports. Yes, I'm seeing a yes from the co-chair of Anita. We we actually insp bridge of scriptures that he had done most that last summer and he did change
at the bottom of it when we woke up the gym had to structure um and it's nothing was like a desk so it's saying you know you know play with the numbers
um and and like you could always unbe the idea was to come eight times and one that's about like the maximum perm that was kind of our benchmark but then
this be that way so that those things I think if we had a recommendation for house say we would like you to pursue this idea and see what you come up with
or coffee schedule then with that out and come back to you what we've done in the past and so I'm not caring gaps from anybody who like no you can't raise that because that's our no I think the
original issue was the losing money at the C5 where you can work charging anything I took tickle where he was charging over it. me and said when he answered I think that's kind of what started bold and I gasped you did yeah I don't think you should do anything
except start encouraging a fee the first year and let that why wouldn't do all these things and complicate like well which one caused all these people to go crazy and I just point out that uh and when fees were
broken down in 2024 um thick ball raised I think $24,000 tennis raised about $6,000 and um shuffle work 800 something like that was but I'm sure they went up in 25 because it's growing constantly it'll be uh so
it is $2 doesn't sound like a lot but their brand is a considerable chunk of change as well um I think pass >> thank you town. Uh just to recap, I'm trying to do that for everyone. We talked about the differential rates and
figured out the $2 a day and sounds like you are certainly open to raising the rate. Council member King and >> Okay. Council member, >> guess how Molly, what uh could we get a copy of the contracts?
Yes, I can provide that. >> That'd be great. would look at and of course that I guess I would like to know how to best give them any kind of notes changing things like one to say uh you're so you're going to come to this gym that they blah blah you a certain
mood or that charge but that's how I find out was it and as far as setting the rate as under a council and then did that Yes, >> I would make the recommendations and
then it >> Thank you, Council Member Shy. Council member Willis. >> Um, yeah, I think Oh, before I like the tiered approach. But
we could easily go right to just insurance covering the second floor >> the C5 and we start charging a court fee
and we can also monitor the checkin on the insurance. If they start to go down, >> then we're we're noticing that because they can't access the court, >> they're not coming.
>> Okay. But we're not losing any more money hopefully. But uh I think >> at uh at this point we we need to limit what insurance is responsible for and how much we're losing with that and go
to the court fee. And and I like the idea of maybe combining court fees for both uh facilities and you can charge more than you would for a single, but you do have access to both.
>> So, no one's when it's raining, no one's locked out of going to the C5, but um and when it's hot, when you want to get in the air, there you go. But um uh eventually we may see that we need to
jettison. But I think uh again we also need to renegotiate to whatever level we can what we get compensated for by
insurance. So that's my two cents. >> He shall pass. I speak >> Jackson. Well, >> I'm on here. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
>> I'm one of those that I like examples and I've been >> doing some searching online to see if we're even in line with what it >> the rates are in Florida in general. And so so I'm curious, have we looked at
other cities that are similar to us that may have outdoor and indoor? So we have >> Okay. And we're kind of in line with the the differential costs that you all have proposed >> kind of in line with that. I'm taking it.
>> Okay. Okay. >> And and I have a hard time as someone that stood up and spoke to the C5 back in the day. I'm having a hard time with the insurance plans
and that 11 visit through however many other days that they come because of the fact that that means people could be playing here for a dollar if they come a lot and things like that. And I'm a proponent of our
residents that are the taxpayers getting a discount. So I like that. I think that it's just my opinion one and five up here that >> we should have something that goes across both facilities,
>> you know, and have it listed >> for our parks and page as an indoor court or outdoor courts and they can have a court pass that works at both. So, I like that idea that someone had
>> um um >> but I have such a problem with that 11th visit. Why am I having that problem? >> I think that it's the people who use you at Pearl have no idea that they that the
city gets nothing after they visit. >> Right. And I'm not >> and I understand that. But the ones know are the insurance companies. They know it and we're taking a hit on it and
we're maintaining the courts and that cost that I'm looking up isn't cheap and we know that because we just had to maintain. I want courts in our city and I used to play tennis a long time ago in rock and roll. That tells you how long.
Um um but I want our facilities to be nice for our residents here and our visitors to the area and those insurance companies making their money doesn't help us to maintain our our property.
And so that's where I have a problem with >> the people coming. It's not the people's fault by any means. It's how do we handle that? And that's that's why I think discussion has to be had how we can do that. I like
the court idea and tearing the services that you all have brought here and saying let's do a pass here. You go to our gym but you know what the gym equipment costs too >> and that has to be replaced often. I
used to weight lift. So, so you know, when we look at maintaining and moving forward, we want to make sure that y'all have the best equipment for use as we can and are able to maintain it.
>> So, that's where I I get to the 11 visits and I'm like, wait a minute, >> wait a minute. >> Those insurance companies aren't helping us. But no, >> headache. >> Yep. >> Yep. And so that, you know, and I like
the tiered aspect. I like a lot of the things that you said. I would like to see residents getting a discount like council member said because we've helped pay for that and and with our taxes and we want it to be nice. We want it to be
a good facility so that it's easy for you all as a board to market those services and have people that want to return. So, so that's my two cents. >> Scott, >> yes. >> If you had any we comments or questions
or statements you like to make, we're just going around. I think that we had originally discussed solutions and between the C5 and you're looking for a way to generate extra weapon. So
that's kind of where we started our discussions as well. Um it is more the how do we generate more revenue to make up any short. So I think that the sherings
that we have that the residents use I I think it would be considered for seen as a disservice to our residents if we discontinued those things. And I think there would be some people who would not use the facility if we discontin it
despite you know the overwhelming response from the people who were survey and responded that they would use it. I I don't I how valid that is and somebody asked me a question on a survey that
like that I probably would answer no too because then want them to to keep wait but I I take that the only solution right now and what the quickest solution and the
least painful would be to separate the C5 um services upstairs from the court fees and establish a court fee because that's that is I think a more acquisitional way to do and I don't think that if you have
that meeting has to pay for $30 $30 a month versus what they get for free now their senior citizen And I don't think that would make the or break them, but I think they just would be seen as uh something that
the city's working against or you know by doing thank you board member Scott Vice Rlet Um I was asking
that by taking pictures of one of the reasons that went to city is that want to fly because as we all know or even as we all know he even get to do that many people
do so that's one so that he actually um created only in the month of task that
you so on a daily basis you obviously play month so you can just yeah you have to just put it that way but we were trying to look at a way to
entice people to purchase more than just come on and on they um they buy a monthly and that is why you want to got a premium for all access pass. So you get the state of war. So you play any
place you want and you can use J for by monthly display for being day you don't have to worry or you can play both fors one in the morning one in the afternoon it doesn't that so we also try
to think of size spots uh to make it more appealing to fit their lifestyle and uh hopefully intend to be less likely to
um but they said my question was to always say and then they kind uh We know doctor know this and they eat
what they know they would have anything forward and it wouldn't be a big surprise to them. So um that was also our five doer then it
thank you for bell. Do you all agree that this is somewhat com? Yes. Do you all agree that yes holiday possibly true? This whole process we're talking mostly
about singers. You agree? >> Enough. Children are very >> we're not even talking about children. We're talking about kids singing eight children may have a big part in other
big now like Ed Morg. So I'm say totally a different now trap John
you're my boss you get a new you get the boss thing Molly you get the fancy pay but you're my boss Mr. Mayor you get the fancy thing you're their boss and Mr. Touchberry
thanks ladies and wait for all happy end. Yes. Pink city. too as I can put it up on the uh screen if you'd like to see it. Also,
I some drives that Esther Hitch would like I think at a minimum moment that it helps us follow along. Anything you're referencing um but I certainly have what you
tester can you do that sir. Okay, cool. First of all, you got to see my bats ride like that because I'm just making money. So, I'm gonna really step out often. Okay, this is No, it's not sunny
hell again. And you'll see how it'll be a long night with a lot of our points of discussion. And again, please stay >> flexed. >> Create a plan for the C5 to be self
sustainable. >> Um, discuss the framework of the plan, the positive benefits for the citizens of Cape Canaveral. often toss both headwinds that the citizens of King Canal will push for and additional
opportunities of this because at plant again this is 60,000 ft and all numbers are directional numbers in this presentation this is just a 60,000 ft view my suggestion is every tactical
household in the city of Cape Canal could be business as son. We charge $100 per reading as an excession, not tax, as an assessment. We have 7,500 plus or
minus addresses. The premised assess is $100.33 a month. Total value that this generate is $750,000. operate the scene five. It's just under $400,000
a year. Is that correct, madam director? >> Here's your books, right? What is that number? 379,2.7 is the last two pages of the BAT docu operation spa study for all facility
and they say directional members. This creates a positive value set the city can use of $360,000. The benefits of this program to the city all children all the all citizens adults and children can use the facility for
free other than the independent time factor lessons and no rental facility. raising this can of guests $5 per day or if they have two guests $8 per day. This is a 70%
savings in our current fee structure that we currently have for senior citizens. Non-residents can still use third party hos residents can use third party insurance companies. >> Let me ask you a question. >> No questions are up yet. Thank you.
Well, it shall make the sex >> one >> because you've got a few more slides too. Also, residents in Cape Cana, all resident in Cape Can, the summer camps, the winter camps, the
spring camps for free. We recently learned out during the Cape View elementary school situation how many economically challenged people families we have in Cape Canal. I think it woke up a lot too.
Alford, uh, this align with the M's goals, but I helped me teach it out based on the challenge with Cocoa Beach, the reindeer run. And I just received an email about some other fitness thing
between us and Titusville or >> the same thing, United Way. They've just rebranded. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. So in align with that uh you're um all first responders fire
and show station in the Kate or Port Canam stations have free access. What a better way to get to know the citizens that they protect and serve. This opens up an opportunity for
citizens of all ages to play various board games, cards, dominoes, bat gam, and offers mental stimulation for our senior community and all of the children who
want to partake. That tie that dovetails off. How was the bold brains game night that we hadn't a couple of weeks ago or just see fun, right? >> Yeah. So, this pays more attention to
that. >> What does that we've heard some people talk about hitman? Why should I pay I pay tax? Why should I pay $30 a month senior when I can go to
the Cocoa Beach and Merit Island gyms and pay $20 for a lot better equipment and includes classes? Why should I pay $8.33 per month for a building I won't use?
That's the biggest thing. I'm not going to answer that. Here's the respon. Oh, and please regarding uh point be our kind board members don't use our building. They sell the coal beach. Uh we have a councilman who says he loves music. They
u they go to planet fitness or other places. There's a reason for that. They can explain their own personal reasons. >> Um so the respondents to all those points I have questions for you are
pushing me with hate. When was the last time you used your flood insurance? >> Has anyone used flood insurance here lately? >> When was the last time you used the library? >> That'd be good. >> When's the last time you used Nancy
Hansen? I'm talking to the community. Not just a pickle or remember our taxes paid for new words and other electro electrical detail. taxes paid back one way or another.
When's the last time someone in our community used a little league concession statement? Sorry, that's my snarky. That's how I get about that. Um, we're upgrading Sam Piper Park. We already upgraded Patriots
Park. Where did that money come from? It didn't come from taxes, the fire parking, and rescue vehicle. We purchased new equipment for them. They displayed it uh last month here. Okay. When was the last time someone had a
fire at their house or had to have an EMT come to your house? Yes, it does have but we have it like insurance. In addition, a fully indoor facility. It's a a fully indoor
facility, not dancing Hansen, which is outside. What other new opportunities can this bring to the city? Pickle ball tennis at Nancy Hennessy. Free for the citizens. Cape Canaveral.
She didn't work out playing now suspended civic hook. Please remember the city of Cape Canaveral paid a million dollars to tear down the building to make it into a d parking lot
from dog parking. Let's put some funds to that and get that movies. Create an NFL flag footballing for boys, girls, adults in Kawaii. That's a big craze now. Why football? And we have
fields. We have fields of playing the C5. We have fields by manity park. Funds are not for maintenance as we always have budgeted for. Do not switch the These new citizen benefits
will in strategically attract new holdings. Why? They have a wonderful facility that their kids can use for free that they can use for free and it's a benefit to the entire
community kayak trail along the beds of drip. We're having a brand new square music and nice educational I call it that's not technical but a
nice educational event of event for the city and for tourists but I don't know if you ever gone on a a kayak tour either in the river at night at dusk but you seen all the plankton the flies and
it's just an amazing sight something very cool. Possibilities are atoms. We are the space between. So why don't you create space? >> I'm wondering questioning please. >> Yes.
>> And so in your first page he talks about the um flexible addresses. >> Yeah. >> Does that include the um rentals and Airbnbs? does stack on it. So there
>> so exact so they assess her the one for unit >> $100 a year >> just >> per address. So if I have a a partner complex with five units or I have five units I have to say something
>> is my question is it's each one of your units taxable for example duplex and five awaken 510 each address is taxable okay is there owners that own each
but you have to build >> yes >> what we have to work that out Okay, we got >> obviously on that fox. >> Would this be cast on chewy rush? >> That's up to the owner.
>> Well, who cares? >> Okay, >> they just I get eyes. >> Oh, watch. I I'm being honest. that came up to deliver AI >> because then that would just kind of change the devel
by human versus by building by by um assessing well >> there's approximately 7500 addresses in the city of King Canaveral. That's what I based it on. Again, the $100
that's nonex for the city elected officials and business officials to figure out. Maybe that number is nine for that. But I mean easing up.
>> Jenny, >> I'm generally appall to this discussion going on today because it really wasn't none agenda issue and this is a great I mean it could be a great idea but none of us have had the opportunity to talk
about this yet. And when you're talking about a citizen, worse than a a taxable location versus a renter, I mean, all of these things have to be worked out. But generally, I think it's a good idea, but I don't think today is the day that we
should be discussing. >> Well, it's excellent point, Jimmy. Uh, however, I didn't discuss it with our director prior to the meeting. I mean, the comment I received was it's a workshop. We need to throw out ideas out
there. Uh this is why we're all gathered together. >> I think it's we might go on for another couple of hours discussing this idea. It is I guess >> one thing another chair per you did said
it's high level 60,000. So I don't think we need to necessarily go deep our respondents. We received a high level presentation. Um, and I just want to make sure there's any other questions. They can keep circling. Board member Swim, is there anything? I hear you loud
and clear. I think we can go through questions and and work put this forward. Um, but yeah, a lot of questions. Council me. Yeah, I I think great idea make all this stuff accessible. We get usage out of it. Another amenity for
citizens, taxpayers rather than charging the residents. Can we burden our 10 or 12 hotels or everything out of there? Put some kind of tax on them. I think that's our area in the port. Yeah.
>> Well, I mean it's the where that kind of she mentioned before. >> Oh, sorry. Yeah. court but maybe what Alo City thousand over thousand we throw a thing in there rather than bread and spans
that nobody want because idea we're not charging them a because I'm with I have no idea that we you're not charging I'm a tourist extend for the city of Cape Canal now I want you all when I travel
for business yeah I'm not retired okay but I travel for business and I have to go to a city like Anhive, I'm think I'm hit with a tourist assessment. I go to Anhei, I'm hit with a um if I
stay at a resort, I'm hit with a resort assessment. Okay. So, if that's not something you agree 100, that's a good idea. This is what this is supposed to do is bring out
these ideas from every so yeah I think it's toward the point that today we've got uh some option do we want to continue with the insurance we want to change the rate and heard some ideas and ways and emphasized
hey does things permanent and test something short I think you brought forward a different idea an outside the box idea And we do welcome those. Uh I think what we should do for today is
then this idea might pause what we're thinking about on the other things. I think this this how we fund it. So if basically a fee for service is very different than the tax flat fee. um our city attorney have to weigh in on
how that that assessment whether or not you could differentiate commercial properties by use. I think it might get a little air, but I I appreciate this outside of this box idea and I think today
my comments is let me review it. Let me look at it and I'll speak for myself on that and I want to pair this up with everything else that we heard him. So, are there any other questions for cheer for Mel this time? >> No, that was worth waiting for. Yeah, I
did >> the trip look died. >> I wanted to smash you when you brought it out. How much can it sit? But this is worried way. This is a brilliant. I think this is very ladies and gentlemen. This is just Robert's the spot,
>> right? >> And I appreciate that you listened. I appreciate that there's minimal questions and I mostly appreci you all have my phone number and email will discuss we now other questions on
this. Thank you very much for your time. >> Thank you. And I think that one thing out of this that we all should look at what's initiated this exercise and presentation is the annual operating cost to the facility. And you know this
is a black the city is for by services. My comments I guess as as we're going um I've heard I got notes I think just to recap some of the things that we're talking about today is now anything that we do we're all saying
one in the short term. So I'm just make out what we do and simplify it soon. We can test if we start to see some actual falloffs. Uh we can adjust according length
the core fees. Was anyone have posted that differentiating seat thighs and and I think we all pick and that doesn't be more than just a
is not like traditionally their money easy to administer one pass to all the defined courts. We're all open to that reason and I'm not trying to push it any year. I'm just trying to recap. I I think the biggest
issue was just >> okay >> in the managing the staff managing um the people within the seat. >> Okay. Well, that's extremely in politic um
>> like are they blocks within the blah blah blah that is anyone sneaking up? No. Are they going up the elevator? We should be like the old Macy's in New York City and have someone on the elevator.
>> That's what I should know, you know, on your hand. >> Show New York City to get your I mean there there's logistics with everything because there logistics with trying to get a good
mole at Nancy Nancy to make sure everyone pays. >> All right. Because right now I've done the honors, you know, and that's and that's really difficult. I hard time getting dating people. I think it's better now than it was. >> It was a real problem of good for
>> we got good management there. >> So, you know, so there's always logistical things that need to be worked out. Not that you can't >> and I think that's what is that proposal >> does eliminate that administration. I think we would
all agree. Well, like I said, it's easier. It's >> still let nonres they can pay. I'm not right here at time and so I would say freaking should we do we want to explore
maybe uh what that >> the the cost of time and logistics I guess could what would it cost to set satisfy the logist loistics needed for that to be successful. Is that something as a joint effort
>> that we want to look at or and okay >> generally just raising the rate what distance circle was there any concerns you put that I think some are
We're all over. I think we're all gasping said to what exists today is what we want and whether we decrease the loss minimize the loss we need to negotiate those concepts see
what's go request I think actually I'm that is number one I'd like to see if we could get the contract so I think the first action item that's an excellent point is the contracts and we're talking about
the contracts with the an approach. Yes. Okay. Did I maybe see what what is our should we just say uh should your silver sneaker general upstairs how do we have to give them and we wouldn't know anything attorney
that figure well they're studying that for limitations to the cardia they're covering that it's cardio related I don't think there's any argument the gym the upstairs is cardio related the rest of it it's not covered
reset the reset. >> But the biggest thing is what council person Jackson stated. >> We have to somehow track visit 11 plus. >> Oh man. >> That that is a key point. All right. So
the first 10 visits you the insurance company pays us $10. your next 10 visits. We want that $50, $5 a day or whatever the magic number is. That's a key point. >> Is that for Charlie? I've been wanting
to ask this all night. Sorry, Molly. Uh the $50,000 loss is that you found that all the people who had more than 10 visits of that are on insurance and calculated
that. How did you come up with the $50,000 plus >> to space on daily bay? So it's Oh, Chris, they kind of need to look if I charge if I charge $5 that we come to the jail and the insurance company. Best I could do is take
>> that's where the lawsuits. >> Oh yeah, that would be solved I think by a monthly fee and and the the daily fees paid by the insurance and incur. Do they all do the gyms? I didn't know magic
that that way. See if you're done. That's the way silver sneakers operate. >> I'm going to add my Yes, they all operate that way. That's got to assume I can go to two gyms in a day. I can I don't have that insurance anymore, but
I used to be the sign up and give a month advance. Like if I want to I was considering going with Vieira and there like you know in order for my car to work at Vieier with Silver Sneakers I have to cancel my member of Cocoa Beach
you can't go anywhere I some of them you can contract and that's one way that's Molly is that something that >> the best way to I guess >> but yeah with Habber I think I was to I
don't know, sir. Emailing it to everyone, putting them on the shared uh laser fish. Either way, we will all have access to that. The second thing, piggyback, so we're going to come back and I think a lot of these questions are going to be answered is the financials
um just in general for that building, the number that was stated earlier. >> It still likes credit 380. >> You have all Yes. 380. Okay. Thank you for that. So I'm there um last
>> two years I can >> yeah how I turn it out for you in the spreadsheetster how long do you like that? Okay. So, this is community center and can roll park together which is just I mean the grounds it's right out there. They got some equipment
mission stuff is people and so the total I'm trying to go to the bottom line it's it's finished across two pages in about 375,000. Oh no, sorry for the year 164,000
stamp 214,000 mayor. If you add the ODM and the staff, you get 379 247 and minus the revenue generated by the facility at 120. Y >> you come up with a difference of 2597.
>> Okay. And so it's so basically 120,000 is revenue with 300 whatever the number was in this is up to about 260,000 that's not loss that's lost if you wouldn't look at that. Okay. So these are provided
due >> and that breaks down utilities maintenance by mention overhead that's excellent. So >> with the cool tracks and now understanding this is there financial
info that we need we wors off this >> last two pages that's been for the pet not >> but does not include the full revenues
and expenses for the department >> right >> to revenues or sets I think that sign you have a friend who's unnecessarily attached to a building. >> This is great, right? >> You've been asking for it since 2017.
>> What's that? >> Oh, I forgot was asking for it. >> Well, the most you're here today looking at it. Thank you for council member Shy asked for it when he got elected. So we produce food.
>> Our terrestrial said I've been asking since 2017. >> Yeah. >> What's the 331 168 on the special? That's um I thought that was roughly. >> Those are those are revenues.
>> Yep. But we only have 14,000. That's the what's in your left hand is the revenues for the entire department the punishment for absolutely everything we do. >> Oh, and you're only carrying the grounds for the >> line on the spreadsheet is only for that building and that facility
can city park. I don't there's no revenues being for events that we're generating for the park, right? Nothing. It's so that's that 200 >> I'm sorry that 120,000 >> sardine front of the day is I guess do
we have a breakdown for revenue >> where that 20,000 comes strong king of trograms >> okay >> the programs that are operating down at that facility that's like room for the rooms to theirs and the independent
contractors. I said, "Yeah, the teachers are >> 8,000,000." >> Exactly. >> We can uh perhaps in a teacher meeting, we can break down those revenues. Well, I think if we got a loss problem, we're all talking about revenue. Just having
an understanding of that as as wealthi and building it would see helpful. I think the cost is >> I mean those are very detailed >> that additional sheet that I provided
that has with the revenues on it >> that is pretty well broken down because it is about a year into my tenure as director I work with finance to retain up some of the stings of art now
>> see how if I is non through you know athletic program where the mirror to something larger than that it doesn't really make much sense to if I'm throwing other program revenue even
though it's not that so we had to update grenades of somebody >> and one of that was to separate Nancy Hansen memberships and the C5 it was easier to track
So are they on two separate P&Ls >> or do we combine them now >> profit and loans? I'm in a domestic >> but it's it's outside there in the last and kind of sh
>> I just I still maybe I don't have the importance >> why >> no you're looking at the detail one and >> you're talking about that >> okay
it's 33 lb of of draftings and don't understand why etc. >> So to to clarify, you're looking at the sheet is just from your court 25. >> Yeah. >> The two pages that based
>> well you're saying there's only Yes. There's only $140,000 worth of revenue. >> So 20 comes by. >> Yeah. But I mean the large has it broken down by property? Yeah. >> Yeah. The number sure it's a bobbing
event only associated with that property. Friday fest is not necessarily associating the bur that special revenue. >> Most of the special events we do are not associated with a specific building.
They're called out >> independent contractor fees or those are between multiple buildings and multiple facilities. Okay. Chan wasn't going to put Jamie does three classes at one place. She does one class over at the
other place. Oh wow. So I would be >> dicing up data. So that what's in your hand is what hit the bank account. Oh, the 30 and then you delete and do deeper than that. I got to >> individual hands.
>> Okay. And what >> I have a procedure of concern. This is I'm looking at the resolution for the fee structure for the community center that was done in October 18th of 2023.
And I don't really think that this includes allowing the memberships from the >> choice. >> Correct. >> No, and that's initial. >> Yeah. That's the problem. >> Yeah. I mean and then the other thing is
is like I don't know I don't know >> why this was >> put in here about the this attachment one about the promation of bulls sitting thieves etc >> but that is talking about state parks
>> so I don't know just well if I hit the definitions of things city park you know five facilities citizens you know all that stuff makes a and whether or not you guys you guys being the board
the city council are proceeding in legal fast and that was another that you know secondary concern of mine is are we are we are we going right now allowing that found
I mean you know allowing our cities you know people in our world again what they need insurance companies for but You know, I think if you guys, you know, whether you need to amend that resolution or Brad's new plan for
limiting homes, this, you know, it it that that may be a consideration, but >> the code is definitely in need of an update regardless of which way is out, but you know, may not be something people
were aware um epic that, you know, was discussed, but with me. >> That's good. Yes, city attorney. >> Yeah, I just I think now's a good time for me to speak on the issue here. So, am I on to speak?
>> I I didn't want to bother to be we need to have policy policy discussion regarding this third party insurance program and whether or not the city wants to make the um the communities that are participating facility. That's in my opinion that's policy decision for
the city council. It's not incorporated into the existing great skin. There are several documents floating around from these third party insurance providers. I was just looking at it some here. It's a couple of the documents. Some of them
are not even signed that you sent me by the city and there's one document that's signed by some employee stole here that frankly does not have contracting authority for the city.
I wouldn't be in a box with these contracts at this point cuz I'm not even sure whether or not they're binding obligations on the cities. That's that's an issue that I wanted to further evaluate after you had the policy discussion whether you wanted to
consider being in these third party insurance programs. So there's more to more examination of some of the documents uh for these third party insurance providers. that I want to make you aware of. >> So if there are any that are standing
and valid and those >> you yet to be verified >> yet to be there >> but we are participating and members are participating. Um so that that's clear but whether there's valid obligations like the city
couldn't decide that it didn't want to participate. Is there a party programs like immediate brief for convenience? you know that that is to be evaluated and I don't know what would be either even like binding documents on the city so they can at this point I have no
>> or what was ratified what we can't do >> yeah well they have that but yeah we're a municipality it is all certain kinds of laws and we're contracting but again I don't want to have this meeting or do you have a policy decision on the type of service that you do to
evaluate and look at the improve the about call you know membership to enroll rent and that's really >> well no wonder they don't pay what we were finding drives right >> they pay us what they
>> they pay what their program pays >> yeah I mean if we were need likely a little different but we have a small little you know they're to have somebody negotiate a special contract for us >> I don't know that's That's
>> I I don't know K. You know, they even if the city wants to continue to participate in third party insurance program, maybe maybe you only participate in certain walkings and some you do not because they don't meet minimum, you know, requirement, right?
That the city expects for revenue those said, right? Now, what's between getting appropriate revenue to balance the services that the city provided? you know, Jim Mollies and staff have great idea about, you know, possibly splitting
up the base membership and with the, you know, the premier membership. That's those are all good ideas, but they have to be adopted by the city council in the future resolution that you just mentioned and the board has been kind of working through this for for about a
year. Um, but it's all come to a head. It needs to be explicitly addressed by the city council as part of your rate structure. If you want to include these third party insurance to private is at the rate structure then yeah you may want to consider just minimum
requirements >> insurance on these contracts city attorney were they contracts that the companies gave to us. So they're pretty much standard contracts for those companies. >> I think that's good for us to be able to
see them as council and evaluate those contracts. >> Sure. But how does this look? I'm quite sure because that could help answer some questions as to whether we want to continue this or how we may want to go forward based on what we know they
provide is carbon draft. So JP gets calibrated see what's actually real and there is a scenario that we could freely think there's just you just stop
administering the program and we would verify there would be no legal consequences of that I think and it's connected some of the conversations we should have every contract that is good for us that's a win-win and so I'm not
saying that's it. So if there is one that needs to just be tightened up or it's a good one that's working well or we can renegotiate and get a rate establish our terms and conditions in minimum um I think that could be a good
thing and I think the the financials the legal agreements and then we as a as a council can working with our board I think can make the the decision on the problem today as defined and we went
through is well how do we fix that assuming >> I would say and then the agreements and and make it where it's revenue positive for the city if we can get mutual agreement um but my
thought would be and we've raised everything when this is to move forward courage not to the earth to serve and let's test it even if it's and have a a date certain time that we can come
back together um and see look under and see how it's going with I'd like to do it with the board did another joint meeting even if it's 90 days from now but we have a council meeting
and two weeks yet two weeks I don't know if it was the intent that we could at least Okay. So, so our vision for the body did said you got a lot of information to process. There should be a lot of good suggestions and thoughts on ideas. We've got a handout. There's
some more backup documentation I want to review. So, we can uh schedule another meeting. But I think if we put a date certain that we want to have the sign up by and we can look at maybe the beginning official year October one. I
don't know that that's too far away. I think that's probably just enough time to do all of the normal things that we do and continue to chip away at this. You all schedule another day to meet. We'll get you all the information that they're asking for and you can process
everything and we'll come back and discuss it around to that. Will that include Brad's question or is this a future is that there's just a fee schedule program to rectify the current situation? Is that what you're saying?
>> I you know I don't know if we can make at this point in time without a council without the council. I would think we see that idea >> I can speak for I want to look at it and I think if other council members look at it get closer we can give some direction
on whether or not we want to go deeper on that. And I would say any other ideas that maybe they get back off that amenities to that or another outside the box. We all as a council and potentially our forward it to me would be about
giving the staff clear direction on that because that would be a whole different deep dive might be worth it. Might be best thing we've ever done. But think between now and two weeks to meeting I'll be in a better spot to weigh in on on my thoughts with that. even if it was a brief only during reports beginning of
the meeting and between then and October but we're going to add that to the list too I guess so you're wanting some more information by the council meeting no I'm saying that's provided on that specific thing information presentation
but I will individually look at it and I can disc so if they want to any one of us would need to meet the deadline lines at the top meeting the next and say, "Hey, we had a chance to look at chair for Bell's proposal." Um, and I got
another one from over here amendment and then try to get it on the agenda and at least maybe even during managers matters for next the deadline for the agenda is too long. No, >> no, I I I would think we're talking on
April or March Mark. May I interject something? Something that just came up on Mr. Mayor brought it out. What's the possibility? I'm just using round numbers. Silver Sneaker type organization only pays us a
dollar. >> We all have insurance. We all have co-ay. We make those people. We can't make them pay the other $3. >> Not for the one with contracts. >> Well, that's something to negotiate. He
says, "So I guess I'm still confused. Are we looking to say we need to address this insurance and the contracts immediately >> in case we are in violation or in case those aren't accurately
um be managed. And so that's a more immediate thing as some larger change to like a What Brad presented might be something that we would look for to really hone
and perfect for a year off, but we can easily make this change much sooner because we need to address the contracts for the city manag city attorney and with that comes adjusting the peace schedule and rolling with that until we
can maybe eliminate everything. I think council mash request which I agree all shared comes with two things. one is the contracts and then which ones are valid, which ones have red flags in it and I think our city attorney can confirm
them. city journey. If we as you're filtering these contracts, you'll need some time to review, but say, "Hey, here's the three or four. Look at them. There's nothing the city has to do. These two, here's
>> the issue." To vice chair wrong's point, the questions that were brave was if there are any legal issues that would be a more immediate issue that I think you would be able to uncover just respond to this request for
those contracts and here are the ingredients and then here's the the status, right? Yeah, we need to check on these on these. That was the immediate as when I say immediate, I think Bald is in our city attorney's
court as soon as he gets with our city stack. The big question is do we have any current legal issues with the existing agreements without signific contracts is what I end with that says
you were >> no we're signed I'm sorry. >> Well, that is operating without it. >> Well, they could be operated with contracts, but I need to sign with the documents. It's not signed a good.
>> We just need to sign. >> I have select. I need to see the I guess the Sonic guy out there except the last since employed back in 2022
and that wasn't all there. So the files in the contract that's deck and I do it immediately. We're tackling that one, you know, now. >> So, ladies and gentlemen, what our our goals are number one, review the contracts, see if there's any
flexibility in those contracts for either a co-ay or an increase in the value and if they're legal. Number two, if I'm correct, review the
current tier pricing program. Do we increase prices? Do we create a court pass and only allow people to use the upstairs of the building? And number three, a broader proposal
uh that was presented to everyone. Is that kind of the uh uh everything in a nutshell >> or did I miss something? >> I think that's I think that was it. Yeah, in a nutshell. This takes a three. Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. So >> it's a fine ditch. I think we've got this thing to hear. But you know, >> one thing that was brought up with that timing October to to go after those I
think it was being during the budget process we all be tapping at the same time someone was going in next year's budget within New York. You know what better trajectory that would be my goal. uh
come out. I mean it it's a good opportunity. I think um this is a things that these are businesses and we are trying to figure out a way to make this
community. Was there anything uh holds before I think of what I'm confused on is when we would meet again tax the date certainty. Did we establish that? I know it might be better to at least pencil something in while we're
all here even if it's several months out like were we saying October would be the next time we would meet together? you know that when I say you'll be workshopping through that law and let's have an decision made and implement at
the latest October one that just you know I'm sure goal you can certainly can get there sooner fiscal year makes sense though you know for that perspective >> I think we keep it in front of us
>> I was going to say give that >> if the path forward becomes clear after the contracts are reviewed that a change has to be made to the fee structure because of the insurance
programs >> because of because of whatever you find out from the contract. That's pretty simple. I mean you would you with a council would know that you know fairly quickly. The next time we meet is
in March. >> We we could then if we knew that by March, okay, yes, we need to change in March, we could work on and get back to you a proposed change to the fee schedule by breaking out court pass this
that and the other. We could get that to you. >> Thanks very >> in March after March because we've already done a lot of the work. It would just be a a matter of look at these. We would hash it out. we could get that back to you um by the end of March when
we meet and then whenever that was you know we could that could be implemented you know as sooner as far as not as you want because then it's up to you to pass it and for the staff to implement it. I think the workshop might really be
needed as we start to think >> do we look outside the box at something else to replace what we have >> but we need to keep something going in that time which might take us a year to really put all the moving parts together
>> in in March we are looking at what you said we are considering leaving out that is when our budget then start capital improvement projects That's the the perfect time. It's the whole summer to head into and and have it done before October.
Those long-term plans, we might decide start today, but it's going to take two or three years maybe before they're they're implemented to where a fee change, you're right, could be a reading or two. So, >> yeah, a fee chain built in can can be fairly quick and just then them making
those adjustments to the computer and notifying the public. I mean, but that can be done >> fairly quickly versus a large change. >> It's going to take more work and obviously more workshopping to go
through that. So, I did see it. >> Are there any other comments at this time? And >> come trouble by your silver instead or whatever insurance should be have. A tick of clubs. check with Cocoa Pete and
because there's another number associated with my insurance that has to come from the whoever and when it expires or changes when I can't get in until I get the new number.
So I don't know how that I'm interested to know maybe what contract is sent you know because with these daily >> I don't know how you even track it. I mean, you know, I mean, he's I'm just glad I'm not retired. >> I can change.
>> Well, I think did anyone have anything they did not need to say at this stage? We're not going to get through it all today. I think we've all got more questions and ideas. And again, I can't thank the board very much for digging into this every year though. It's
different forward. river. Some of you have been here for a while, but today I feel good about getting this right. It's a major new endeavor for our city. I mean, we had recreation be for service, but we we did this um that is it's a
it's a big opportunity and had this early question not been asked, you know, we we may not be as far along as we are today. And so, I think my desire is once we know what we have, as we've stated, stated,
>> we will be able to move quickly and make it a win. I did say I've gotten some comments about the concern in emails about with the silver sneakers about cancelling it. I need to go back and read through those a little bit more,
but um that is all I have. Are there any other statements? May Kim with that council bell vice chair.
>> I think we kicked the dog down the road enough tonight. Thank you and thank you again. >> You were very prepared for the back pocket. That was awesome. any other time in city staff. You mean
just sounds like if maybe March possibly at the workshop as April. Yes. Fire season. Yes. Okay. Without meeting