we have the authority to recommend to the council that you know the the density can be this and such we might not want to make that recommendation in light of this new legislation because if we do it sits there as the example for the next guy that comes along and wants to put in a high density uh development where we can sit here and say well we don't want that to happen so we don't want to go that high density on our current allowed densities it it would be allowed as a bonus and I don't I and there there's and I'm going to get to the last slide there they may be clarifying what I think the current the current act says and that is you know those bonuses that are Grant those bonus density that's granted is not um a live local affordable housing project doesn't get that bonus as a matter of right they they the zoning you go to the zoning code and look at what the maximum is as a matter of right not the you can't take bonuses that site specific approvals for site specific development projects but I I'll get into some of the there's only another couple two more side slides I think go proceed so it says the live local says other Land Development regulations may be enforced so the tree preservation Provisions in the city code the setbacks the parking requirements all of that can continue to be enforced however live local encourages local governments to reduce the parking requirements for these affordable housing projects obviously because they want to get more units rather than parking next slide uh the preemption um there a couple little interesting little nuances to it affordable housing projects must be approved administratively so no further action of the city council um um is required um in fact that the legislature specifically took the governing body um of the of local governments out of the approval process well that stinks it is what it is um so the city may not require proposed affordable housing projects to obtain rezonings comprehensive plan amendments special exceptions variances or other public hearing approvals let me let's digest City may not require the project to obtain resoning right if they in other words if they're trying to provide if they want to do an affordable housing project on commercial property or take industrial property then under normal Court under normal circumstances the city would say hey residential is not permitted in this industrial zoning District you would have to rezone the property to residential this is saying that no they don't need to rezone and they can build the affordable housing project in the zoning in the industrial zoning area without a rezoning it's just allowed as a matter of right even though industrial does not allow affordable or any residential projects it is what it is no public notice is required right because supposed there the ACT says it has to be an administrative approval process um I have a view about that though um I think the way the current city code is structured we already the city already has like an administrative review and approval process for site plans for projects and um as you know the Planning and Zoning Board has to make recommendations regarding site plans to the to the community development director I still think that um having a having a a public meeting before the Planning and Zoning Board would still be allowed because you're giving advice and advice to the administrator who's responsible for the approval of site plan so I still think in in Cape Canal's case it could still uh could still have at least a public hearing before the pnz that's my view of it um stop them from what well they so developer of affordable housing I want to come in here this I Trump whatever we are trying to get done by approving miuse districts and things like that if by using this vehicle I pretty much can put a glitch in all plans right okay so what do we do about it that what we're sitting here about well there's there's other aspects of it I mean it still has to yeah it still has to go through the the site plan approval process but with respect to the preemptions there's not much you can do about the preempt the preemptive aspects of the live local Act right right technical site plan review process technical stuff they have to submit building plans to make sure the plans and the buildings are going to be consistent with the Florida building code and the all the trades but as far as the bigger bigger issues is where we want different uses to go that's been taken from us even they want to go and sit on the corner of central down we have some for last Prim property ready for mixed use um think we need to find a vehicle to be able to blow them down until somebody else comes along with a better idea blunt about it but that's kind of what we're looking at right yeah no I mean the city would have to process an application if you had a Bonafide developer that wanted to put an affordable resid iial project on um commercial property I mean we could Anthony jump in here please I mean we can theoretically deny a application and just not issue issue it and just disregard the preemption say sorry we don't we don't recognize that but then they the question is what would the state's recourse be and I think they do have recourse yeah you don't want to suggest you do that because there are penalties for for doing that I'm not suggesting under Florida law um so um you would have to like you'd have to you know you'd have to hold their feet to the fire regarding the other technical aspects of of the uh of the project meeting other code requirements but you know it's so let's see so you know um go to the next slide I guess a little bit of good news here pending there is some pending legislation uh the live local act may change this session there's two bills Senate bill and a companion house bill um they're proposing to add a a preemption of the city of city and county uh F floor area ratio uh limitations for affordable housing um this that really doesn't impact uh keep Canal too much because I don't think you have far maximum far Provisions in the code currently they're thinking about removing industrial developments um from the from the um preemption so that the preemption would only apply to commercial in certain mixed use zones so that would that would limit um you know where afford these affordable housing projects can go where they're otherwise prohibited so if you looked up on the if they if the legislature were to change it and remove industrial all that purple land uh that's up there on the zoning map would no longer be eligible for affordable housing projects onto live local they're thinking about um tinkering around with the height preemption probably due to some of the concerns in South Florida rather than a one mile radius they would do a quar mile radius calculation um plus if um the adjacent property is three stories or less then the the preemption would only allow them to have a height of 125% of the tallest building on the adjacent property or three stories whichever is higher so that would um you know maybe address some of the parade of horribles going on in South Florida where you have a existing low building and they're coming in using a one mile radius and proposing a building that's his high right up against a building that's that high this would kind of fix that also clarify they they would hopefully clarify that the currently allowed density and height does not include bonuses or variances I think the ACT currently says that but they would clarify it by actually putting some more explicit language in there that that would a deal with the the whole the mixed use um density bonuses and the variances that were granted for the vested rights properties in Cape canaville then change allowable height determination radius I also from one mile to a quarter mile and uh as you as I noted in the early slides that you know if they do an affordable housing project there's a 30-year window there that they got to maintain the project for or affordable which is maximum 120% of Ami and uh the legislature is contemplating putting uh a very serious penalty in there that if they if they don't maintain that affordability of the multif family project then um you know uh then they would be considered a non-conforming use um which doesn't really provide much teeth of of any sort um so next slide and I think that's it so as I indicated you know the council has some concerns you know Now's the Time to Lobby the legislature to maybe try to limit the application of it if the ACT is of concern Mr chairman uh do you mind if I ask the attorney City attorney a question so is the uh A1A overlay District not immune to this um the the EOD is I don't really think that really factors into it what really matters is the actual color of the underlying zoning District I think that's really what um what the base zoning map that's what what what we have to look at right thank you but but the go we're concerned about are the red and the purple right and the pink and the pink in response to John's question we we take away this the density issues and the height issues I think it's fair to say that other other considerations that are included in the overlay District some of the increased Landscaping requirements some of the architect textural standards I think those would all still apply um but height andity like we put a lot of Blood Sweat and Tears into this A1A overlay district and I'd hate to see what the efforts that that everybody has put into that just kind of go away yeah yeah well I mean would hate to be the bear of bad news on the with local you know hopefully it doesn't become an issue but think the purpose of this exercise at least with the council and I think now the planning zoning board is more awareness kind of where where is this coming from what what's driving it who are the legislators that uh are so Avid to have this are they rural are they Urban are they a mix or what I think it's I think it's it's a like I pointed out at the beginning live local is more than just the zoning aspect there's more more um put into the into the act from the legislature to promote more the construction of more affordable housing for people to to people to live in so it's about the demand for housing the need for housing and the affordability of housing so they adopted a rather you know comprehensive approach to a Statewide problem so this was not that I'm not sure you can single out one particular you know state legislator or Senator it was a it's a Statewide problem and this was their Statewide approach to trying to resolve uh the problem and um you know some zoning powers from local governments um kind of went by the wayside in order to implement the um the state policy you know for anal another analogy would be remember uh Mr the Russell many many years ago think maybe 1996 when we had to deal with the telecommunication Act of 19 uh 96 where the federal government said it's more important that we uh we Implement uh telecommunication and they preempted local Authority regarding many aspects of uh approving approval of zoning zoning Authority with respect to location of cell towers you know when when they were trying to beef up the network same thing with the small area the state legislature with the small area Towers those little Q-tips sticking out of the ground that provide enhanced uh cell cellular and data Communications you see them all around especially in some of the biggest cities the little polls you know the legislature said they can go anywhere and any right of way in the State of Florida right so they they the bigger objective from the state's perspective is and then the federal government's perspective with telecommunications was to implement this technology and Zoning kind of got local zoning kind got pushed aside I think the same concept anal you know analogy wise for affordable housing how do you promote more affordable housing you know they're kind of taking the you kind of clearing the land the field a little bit yeah trying to reduce barriers try to reduce barriers right yeah Anthony makes a good point too this is a this is a of an overall strategy the state is actually putting billions of dollars over the next I can't remember if it's 10 or 20 years towards this towards incentivizing this this this development of of Workforce housing um and those are going to those those incentives are going to take different forms um tax incentives and other things sales tax and things like that so there's they're they're actually putting their money where their mouth is on this particular item to put the city and county money in where their mouth is too because if you get one of these projects there's substantial reductions in avolon taxes so you know the taxing advon taxes on the project are not eliminated substantially reduced than they would otherwise be well then did the counties will when they when they suffer that impact they'll have to raise our voice to the legislature get some adjustment I guess well there's no doubt that uh getting workers to work in the State of Florida is a problem uh in any large city getting workers to work you know you need people to do the uh the tasks that uh are not the highest paid but they've got to get to work and you gotta Pro give them a place to live they can't all live out in the suburbs and ride the bus in pretty soon you don't have enough buses but I I see what they're trying to do um keep in mind affordable housing is 120% of Ami so if you look at those numbers what's Ami adjust a median um average average median can I say that statement again that you just made average median income within a certain area Ami if you look up the statistics online you'll see whether it's just an individual as a household or a household of certain number of people right could be family of four look look at those look at those income numbers you know it's not low income housing by any stretch no it's it's yeah if if there perar county has its own Ami and if you look at it let's just say it's $50,000 so 120% of that would be 6 it is a lot more than that but so that would be 60,000 I think the number is 30% of the gross of your of a in a household's gross income can go towards rent I think that's I think that's how it works so there's a formula for this and I can certainly crunch the numbers but I did this once and the rents to still meet the 120 number are going to roughly be between 133 and $1,500 a month roughly so this is not Section 8 housing okay anything else Andy Anthony no they asked me to do the presentation so I didn't want to hopefully I didn't want to take up the board's time here but hopefully you find this you know at least any other good good news very insightful no but if I if I have any I will share it okay well thank you for uh for giving us the education and there's going to just they going to be more to come this issue is it's going to be in front of us for a while I don't know what to say or do about it except to try to understand it and uh do the best we can with it okay any other questions about that issue anything anything else Anthony any want no no sir share with us okay go on to the next item all right let's go to our next topic on the agenda and that's a uh creation of a new category and VOR fees for minor site plan reviews uh David uh lead us through that and tell us the big picture what we're doing here all right all right I will I'll take the R Kyle we're going to do it very good yes thank you Mr chairman um yes so discuss the creation of a new category in for minor site plans uh this is something that we've been working on U myself Dave Todd a few of us have been working on for a couple of months now so um we wanted to take it and discuss it with you guys and try to get some language uh for hopefully to put together a new ordinance to then take back and discuss um so the the root of it all comes from our site plan code currently um requires site plan submitt and St review for all it says all development and Redevelopment projects except single family two family or three family dwelling units and um we have uh run into a few um issues where these single family or duplexes will come in and have um you know especially with drainage uh Landscaping Paving things that probably could have been caught earlier if we had a chance chance to site plan do a site plan review which we currently don't have so we are looking at creating uh adding that into the code as a as a a form of a minor site plan if you will so you know typically a site plan review for a new commercial structure will require staff review Planning and Zoning Board review you all would make a recommendation to us this is something we'd like to look at administratively um for for uh residential uses uh and we actually list out um the proposed requirements for these minor site plants to be storm Water Analysis and calculations uh the details for utilities Landscaping Paving in drainage and a topographic survey those are the requirements we've come up at this point things that we think would be very useful to see earlier on instead of at the building permit phase for the first time um and then then kind of uh going hand inand with that there is the fee aspect I think we uh want to take a a look at our fees on a larger scale um and so we have come up with a few ways of possibly capturing some of the some of the money that we are now spending on our you know engineering team and in a couple other ways Rene will you uh go I think it's probably two or three I go one more so I just I pulled a couple of municipalities around and we actually have a we have a very low site plan fee for both a full-blown site plan which would require uh full administrative and Board review and then minor site plan which is defined differently depending where you go um but by and large I mean we are charging much much less um um so it's I don't know what the right price looks like but it's something that you know we'd like to talk about um and and part of that is Rene if you go to the LA the previous slide um adding some language into the code no you're fine so if you look at the underline this is our our current our current code section 110 223 if you look at the a new underlined language so when such an application so a minor site plan or or full-blown site plan requires review by the city engineer or other thirdparty contracted by the city the actual costs of such review shall be paid by the applicant whether a site plan is approved or not and the community and economic development director shall require a deposit of estimated cost upon receipt of the application so we are um trying to collect that cost at the beginning instead of you know we've had a few situations where we have to keep sending it back to the engineer and that gets gets very costly so um we're trying to kind of nip that in the bud um so I know I just give a lot of information so if you guys sure I ask you to yes just clarify what do you consider well that's kind of the one of the questions I think that we'll want to talk about because we do we do currently have I don't know if we technically call it a minor site plan but a site plan that we do administratively if the director Dave essentially view looks at it and says this doesn't meet the threshold of a full sight plan I don't think we technically call it a minor site plan and it's the same exact fee at this point so you you do a full sight plan for every res residential housing application right not not currently we don't do anything they're exempt and that's the where the problem is being caused we're suggesting that we create a category minor site plan approval and only single family D two family and three p three three family one two and three projects are uh would have to go through this new minor site plan approval when full F planner because if you look if you look at the full full I think Kyle's calling it full-blown there is a laundry list of of requirements that need to be submitted and it can be very expensive to to to prepare um all of the site plan full-blown site plans so what we're saying is for purposes of residential a lot of that may not apply and doesn't apply from a staff perspective we've ID identified five items that we think would be very helpful to be submitted um uh for a minor site plan these are these are you think of a like a infill project we've got a single family lot in on one of the presidential streets and somebody wants to put a house on it well right now typically what happens is they go right to building permit we're suggesting uh let's let's create a initial step where we can take a look at at some of these issues and I think Kyle said one of the big ones is storm water what we do now is we have kind of a I'll call it a ad hoc um review by the city engineer when a uh for a for a new single family home um this is going to be a little bit more structured um this is we're calling out specifically what needs to be submitted in processed as part of the minor site plan we're establishing a fee for that um so it's it's just it's it's just creating a little bit more certainty creating a process creating um um yeah creating I think that's the yeah you need to go to the next slide that's just the fee chart just just hit the arrow at the bottom we do we do so we for for both a full sight plan regardless of whether it goes to P andz it it will be $825 but if it's a if it's a resident presential project they don't they're not required to submit a site plan currently and therefore there's no fee yeah single family home so what happens is when we farm that farm that application out to our city engineer for his review he's you know we're charging they're charging us 250 bucks an hour and we quickly go through um um even the full full sight plan application fee of $825 we are um it it doesn't cover the city's costs I'll just put it that way requ for certain projects we do but right now residential is exempt from the site plan process and that's what we're suggesting is we create a new process called minor site plan they have to apply they being residential projects they have to submit a a permit fee and they'll also be subject to this new I call it the escrow language that says we will determine the estimated cost of the city engineer City attorney gets may have to get involved um you know the so we're we're we're trying to establish an escro fee as well for both minor and the major because at 8:25 just an example we have a hotel project come in as you can imagine there is a lot of city engineer time that gets spent on reviewing this that's it we also have Traffic Engineers that look at our hotel applications so there's there's there's our city cost can mount pretty quickly so let's look at what every El like $1,00 I thought look at yes that's correct that's new proposed language recover third cost or50 cost that's what's proposed especially we're saying in this minor s planeview we would require them to storm analytics a potential small development of their single family home yeah I doesn't that overden someone in that position yeah I yeah I think the intent our intent is not to burden a individual who wants to let's just say they want to put a uh a new detached garage on their property yeah that would not be the intent as to I I I think at least in my mind this is for new construction of a single family home or a duplex Redevelopment need to define the minor site plan a little bit more clearly y to be able to exemp people with a smaller nature of of redeveloping to their to their homes um so they don't get over You' got the 825 plus you've got all these engineering fees agreed nobody's going to do it yeah I think good going to just burden some of our agreed yeah we we certainly don't want to discourage or disincentivize people wanting to make improvements to their properties at all so uh yeah agreed we can we can we can work on we'll we'll work on that language when when we bring it back in ordinance form if that's what the board so desires but it's a good point what numbers are talking I think you go right now we don't have a charge for that but that I mean that's that's we're looking to the board for a recommendation I mean a lot of the other places are doing 750 it looks like um and again I think to to um Daniel's point is we don't want to Fe this stuff to death so I I I'd suggest it would be something less than 1500 yeah and and just to to clarify I I didn't want to over complicate this chart so minor sight plan it's not all of these places are necessarily charging this for a single family home this is just kind of their range yeah that was going to be my question what's the definition of minor site plan for all these other it varies so much that yeah it can get a little complicated I just wanted to provide a range of kind of to illustrate how um below average we are right now well I think when you consider it in relation to the entire overall project number it may not be a huge percentage but we're we're sensitive to that as a matter of fact I've we've had conversations with Lexi uh on being able to do some of those storm water CS Lexi has worked with our city engineer and has formulas that they've provided her that they use when they're when they're doing storm water CS for single family homes um and so there there I believe there's going to be opportunities for Lexi to to do some of that work on behalf of um um the applications so we won't have to submit it to the city engineer for the for for for review and things I don't know Lexi would you want to say anything about that so our our Engineers charge roughly 200 they charge $215 an hour um when they review something they do have to review it essentially to like the extent of their um license uh so and they are not in the city they're located about 30 minutes away so for them to even do what I'm going to call you know we have we have site plan full-blown site plans then we have minor site plans which are kind of defined and then we have we maybe call them like the one 123 you know single double triple family dwelling unit the one 123 site plan that we're talking about today um it still is a decent even for minor improvements driveways patios a pool um it's a it's a decent amount of time just travel plus review plus recommendations for a design uh to accommodate the code that we like to see for uh storm water volume retention what we do kind of administratively with this calculator that they created for us is we kind of incur those costs currently for storm water review because we are not designing the system from scratch um but if they have to go in and kind of look at a site as like a blank slate and then apply engineering to it to accommodate it's a little bit more um involved so they are they are putting it's not the most amount of time in their day but it's enough that the city incurs a decent cost uh when we carry their hourly rate even just for one review what did we what what was the the last time we paid for them to come out and do a storm water review how much was that roughly one review costs about $1,000 that the city incurs that's an hour of travel time an hour on the site um and then two to three hours for um coordination uh designing reviewing the the site as it is and then incorporating what's required for the code so it's about 5 hours so it's you know if they're reviewing it as they should be that's a and traveling as well it's it's a pretty reasonable amount of time to look at it um especially some of our um Lots in the city you know they're small uh it might have a large structure on it in terms of lot coverage so trying to get a little bit creative with with their methodologies to accommodate storm water it can be a little bit more intensive than just saying well if we put a b big enough sale it covers it all um that's not to say that you know we're over engineering these little these little sites but it's not quite as as simple as you know kind of diing a pit that has enough storage for water and right now we're we're the city is absorbing that cost that, for a single family home we we have no way currently to to capture that to offset that cost so so in effect that's that's being paid out of the city's general fund which is comes from all of you when you only all that don't be construction I can see kind typically speaking um Beyond what's written kind of in the agenda memo of the storm Water Analysis utilities detail Landscaping Paving and drainage topographic survey typically that can be handled relatively administratively and internally like right now we're kind of what we do internally you know we're not taking driveway permits to our engineer um we're using the calculator doing it internally but when it does go above and beyond say it's a super tight site or maybe it's new construction um where it's just going to have to adhere to certain codes a little bit more because it's not going to be grandfathered in um that's where we might have to incur some cost from our engineer or maybe it's a site that you know needs to be filled up and raised and elevated for one reason or another it's an infill project as Dave said um but typically the small stuff isn't we have not been experiencing it in such a way that it would spill over um into engineering costs parking front yard that's taken up that you a lot of people are being the papers these days and doubling up their driveway are we saying you would have to go get calculations done by an engineer to show what that effect would be on your storm water runoff that that seems to be burdensome on that person that it's already Bound by city code to try to get just driveway in there so they can put cars in some way we could find that I understand I think we fees and we they should be at least what we're having to pay for I don't think that's a burden for people that are initially building a new construction that's rolled into the engineering fees you know maybe few hundred when you're negotiating your fee from an engineer but to come out of it straight and having to do all this extra yeah burden yeah to let's just say to widen your driveway um and let's say that cost $2,500 is it reasonable to expect someone to pay the same amount of money to get an engineer uh to get to to get engineering understood so I think what we've talked with at at least what we've been our practice has been is Lexi's been handling um some of that um engineering if you will internally so if we lose that St yes it's a good point then we still got to pay for it MH so one of just to kind of highlight again maybe talking about you know a nominal amount for these one two three site plan reviews um for the city of Melbourne and Kyle's research you know they they charge a percentage of that original so it could be that when they submit a scope of work you know there's a cost estimate associated with it maybe a quote we can tie it back to a percentage and that way it's um what's the word normalized to the size the scope of the project if they want to do a whole bunch of work it it can carry with it and there could even be language written in you know still kind of anticipating hey if this goes above and beyond and and you're either putting in a lot of change orders you're you're redefining the project you're um dragging your feet on something or other or we need to go to the engineer there is a a switch that we can flip um to accommodate that additional cost to the city because you're right we we do need to collect these fees and we need to not we need to make sure that we're not burdening property owners for doing pretty minor improvements that should be relatively affordable for existing development I'm I'm so sorry I was just moving my chair and wasn't listening very well I I would say at a minimum you assume anytime you have the engineer come out and do any type of review for any even a minor project $1,000 five hours I would I would that is like a maybe they could get it down to four if they're really fast or you know driving a little over the speed limit but correct right or percentage I like that idea or a percentage and because then it's again it's normalized to the size of the project if you're putting in a very expensive pool there's going to be a little bit more considerations for review if you're putting in if you're repaving your driveway it may not be as um you know if you're not changing the footprint of your impervious surface you're not changing the hydrology of your um property it's it's not going to really be as intense of a review but no matter what when we call an engineer out they're going to do everything as as you know thorough as they need to for their license and and making sure and and that requires time on their part not that it doesn't require time on staff's part it's just a little bit easier for us to do it because we're right here real real quick is your mic is your mic on you're a little bit hard to hear can you hear me now yes oh yeah it's much better thank you um we can we're can ask you to go away and massage come back with some numbers or a formula or we can sit here and create a number like thousand bucks put in the chart um what do you think let them go away and massage it a little bit that would be my thought is let them massage it and come and I do like the idea of the percentage um but I don't think the city should be incurring these costs the city should should not be incurring these these costs yeah and we could even build in like a you know I'm just use a number 10% or $100 like flat a flat rate of at least 100 you know once it gets above that it's 10% Like a minimum you know we know we're going to incur some cost no matter what you know any kind of engineering is not going to be 100 bucks no I know that but I'm just saying if it's not going to be something that we need to send out to engineering we're still going to have some administrative cost so what we can build in kind of a flat rate and then go from there okay it looks like the uh the board is amenable to go away work with it based on what you've heard and come back with the proposal okay is there anything else and I would be fine if they had had to pay all the engineering fees yeah we need to recover the engineering fees whatever they are so because if it's $1,000 now what's it going to be next year so you don't have to put a number in the chart you just say Plus Engineering Plus Engineering right that that will be captured under Section where's my ordinance that'll be captured under section 223 okay right right yeah under our our deposit proposed deposit landage so what are you thinking for the full site plan number it still sits there at 8:25 we need to address if Coco's PL paying 1500 we can pay 1500 yeah I think it's a reasonable well it seems like the other communities have done a lot of the heavy lifting for us okay should be able to come up with a number so 1,500 on the full full sight plan um as far as the minor site plan goes um plus uh the engineering fees that we need to recover for the minor and any number you want to tag on it yeah um does everybody I mean it seems like 750 seems to be a a number that's accepted or a and that's for new developments yeah we're going to we're going to as as as um Daniel said we're gonna that's one of the things we're going to go away massage yeah is is is really kind of nailing down what we mean by minor site some definitions yes it needs to be I couldn't figure out what was it's good points are you going to plan on estimating these costs well it's really going to be on a case-by Case basis um as as Lexi was saying it depends on what if it's just a a minor driveway expansion well that might be something Lexi can can can handle internally if it's a um and that may even be preempted out of or or taken out due to what definition we come up with for minor site plan but I I think it'll be it'll be it'll be a uh discussion we'll have internally I think we'll have a pretty good idea of what the esro deposit would be I would imagine what would happen is if we don't use all of that desro deposit we would refund we would refund any balances to the applicant because I would think the applicant is going to go well how' you come up with this number yeah so you at least need to have some guidelines and rules of how you came up with it and then okay we didn't use it all here's your 10 bucks back or whatever perfect yeah I mean we know part of the equation which is the the the fees the hourly fees we'll just have to estimate what the U hours the actual hours will be towards and and I'd love to give you I don't know if there's a simple one one siiz fits all when it comes no I don't think it is but I think as long as you have guidelines that say this is how I came up with this number yes you know yes so we like, 1500 for the full sight plan plus uh 750 plus whatever you guys massage out and want to propose and it doesn't have to be 750 I just said that yeah you want to come back with a proposal okay we can do that um anything else that we need to talk about all right we cut that one up pretty good um next thing we're going to talk about is uh maximum imper impervious service surface coverage and you got those maps in the back of the uh handout how do you want to address that sure yeah so the famous the famous Maps we've used many many times showing the impervious surface coverage across the city um this is another thing we've been wanting to do for a really long time uh we currently have a maximum lot coverage is what we call it for a lot of the residential zoning districts um just for example R1 is uh allows for up to 40% lot coverage but the way we Define lot coverage is just the area of a lot that is covered by an enclosed structure So that obviously is missing driveways and all sorts of impervious surfaces so um we've been looking at potentially creating um a Max impervious surface coverage um we looked at specifically Coco Beach has something thing um sort of like what we uh would like to do um Lexi is really the the one behind this for the most part so she can tell you a little bit more but um yeah we'd be happy to answer any questions hi uh actually didn't introduce myself before my name is Lexi I've attended one or two other board meetings um but I think there's been a few new members that have joined so if you haven't met me before uh I work with Kyle Zach and Dave in community Economic Development um and my main role is somewhere between engineering and planning uh so I've learned a lot of planning through Kyle and through Dave um and then one of the things that was kind of brought down to my level in terms of um a task to do let's do a timeout here real quick Lexi is um on her way to receiving a um or earning a PE she is working on her PE um she just passed her initial test her EI test engineering intern test and um so huge big step huge first big step so Lexi is we're really if is that I don't like using the word groom anymore but uh but um Lexi we're we're working on with with Lexi to really take on a lot of internal city um engineering responsibilities um and she'll be working kind of across multi multi- departmental responsibility um so um she's uh she's a rising star in the city so anyways so what you say is we're going to be paying her $200 that's what that was really about if you could just turn that into an agenda item that would be that would be great um so thank you Dave um so I kind of jumping into it this impervious cover um really we started looking at this just from a lot of the flooding issues that we're having uh Cape Canaveral is a highly paved hardscaped area our Maps um are done with the help of research Partners over at Stetson University these were created I believe last year or late in 2022 they show impervious cover cover both by storm Basin uh as well as by zoning class so just generally kind of the the type of coverage we're looking at um it is not just putting it out there it is not absolutely perfectly accurate it is a general estimate just based on the information that was uh the data that was available we're actually with the um National Science Foundation grant were looking to shoot some lar uh collect lar information for the city which will be a lot more accurate I think to the 3 cm accuracy something along those lines it was very good so we'll be able to kind of reevaluate what our impervious cover is at that time um now the kind of how it relates to flooding right is anytime rain falls on a hard surface it it runs off of that it does not mimic the naturals environment's ability to absorb that that um that water it REITs heat creates uh heat island effect um it you know you have a lack of biodiversity in terms of native Landscapes and habitats for for any flora and fauna so we're really kind of trying to understand um how to keep how to keep that from kind of continuing to Avalanche and snowball in the city because as it stands at this time we could put down every shovel and every corner of the city and not put a drop of of asphalt or concrete down and we would still flood and it would only continue to get worse um so that's just kind of to give you the background of where staff is coming from in terms of approaching this problem and the why and the challenge of it um that being said Coco Beach does have uh a lot in a lot of other communities have codes that set appropriate Max impervious coverage um ratios or percentages for different zoning classifications so it's not just a a broad swath of you can only do this much um on your site it depends on you know the type of development the zoning class and the usage um so with that being said um theirs is roughly depending on the type of residential it is it varies from about 50% to 60% % Max impervious surface coverage and it do well they use the terms lot coverage which encompasses impervious surface which does include enclosed um structures both uh primary and auxilary pool decks patios um driveways walkways uh garages kind of everything that makes sense to included an impervious surface and they also have incentives and flexibility in their code to say if you implement low impact development into your site plan and into your design or your upgrade your Redevelopment we can work with you in terms of allowing a bit more impervious surface so that's things like perious pavers specifically designed to be perious as a as an installed system native plants rain Gardens uh more natural mimicry in terms of hydrology and and how we process storm water on a site um so what we're kind of asking of you today in terms of discuss in terms of discussion is you know giving us a a go-ahead um a direction to move in for that impervious surface code um examining maybe some incentives that you think would make sense uh to to kind of kick it into gear we do have a few small programs right now that help people you know do some eco-friendly practices on their on their property um and then just kind of next steps for feasibility yeah I'd like to add one thing you know depending on what if if this is the direction we want to go in and if we establish impervious surface ratios or isrs depending on what those ratios are we could be creating some non-conforming situations out in the city let's say we set it at 60% there may be a number of properties that are at 70% so they automatically become non-conforming is that that's that's an issue that we're going to have to Grapple with and and wrestle with um that but that happens when you create standards um and so one of the things that we've talked about at staff level is how do we how do we incentivize folks to perhaps reduce some of that impervious surf that existing ISR on a piece of property um so that may be something that we include in a in a draft ordinance as well is is how do we address those those non-conforming properties because there were there are going to be some if you're you're all familiar with sites in the city that are paved walled away wall um and uh those are those those individually may not be a big deal but when you start compounding all of those that's a big part of some of our storm in certain sections of the city that that contributes greatly to our storm water issues and so as Lexi said earlier we're trying to we're trying to encourage folks to capture some of that storm water on the site not even put it into the city system um but anyway I'm rambling so I thought all the new houses new single family houses had to have soiles to hold the first X number inches of water right that's correct so okay some of it has already been I think the new the new construction generally isn't the issue it's a lot of our existing existing development yeah we if you perfect examples are some of the condo apartment complexes down right off Ridgewood if you drive around some of those there is no green space it is all parking lot or building footprint nothing and that just all of that when it rains it just goes right into the city system City the the our our our um our curban gutter our gutters storm so storm water yeah and it it does go a bit beyond you know just the storm water discussion obviously that's kind of the number one yeah that's that's that's number one on the list of of topics and related to this um but there is there is a lot of um data showing you know the more hardscaped your your spaces are and I think for Cape canava we're pretty we're pretty green in terms of tree coverage um at least in in our right of ways in our Municipal spaces um but there is a a lot of opportunity lost when you don't have as much unpaved Green Space um you just lose a lot of that cooling capability um in terms terms of um carbon dioxide absorption you reduce reflectivity of Appo transpiration just that whole that whole um cycle that trees and plants kind of generally give us um and it can it can it can add up especially especially you know here in Florida where it's already very hot um and we do have we have a number of you know vulnerable individuals in our population who are a little bit more um who a little bit more vulnerable to heat and heat island effect so it's there's there's a few components to it Beyond storm water I think that's probably the most tangible and easiest one to discuss U but there are secondary benefits be that um when it comes to to Green Space and or and to impervious cover and that's why it's kind of its own discussion topic um outside of just storm water accommodations as well and when you proposing this doesn't matter if it's commercial or residential or industrial your you're proposing the same percentage based on the uh building and your you know driveways and all of that stuff it will be it would be appropriate for the zoning class so we would examine other other communities policies um we could look into you know what does that to do with density parking requirements things like that um and we would we would do it we would select or propose I should say um max lot coverages or Max impervious surfaces as appropriate after some evaluation it wouldn't just be okay everyone's at 60% no matter what it would be you know maybe R1 R2 is at a certain percentage c1c2 is at a higher percentage and again building in mechanisms for property owners developers to uh incorporate low impact development or greenstorm water infrastructure or other forms of nature-based solutions that can provide some of those ecosystem services that we see from greens space um on their lot if they're not going to be able to either be conforming or they want to develop beyond our Max impervious as said in our code so were you working on some percentages of um reduction of impervious to propose for each one of these different um zones that would be that would be kind of what we're starting to put together you know kind of starting with Coco Beach there's a few other communities in Bard County that have it um there's lots of communities up in the Northeast that have it as well um and I think one of the things you know that Dave brought up is incentivizing it's really a lot of it is existing development right we're we're very built out um there's not very many people completely you know bulldozing something down to the slab or or even ripping it out to replace it it's it's it's you know kind of either major to minor Redevelopment um so how do we you know how do we keep that from kind of continuing to turn into just you know pay of Paradise and put up a park lot type of deal um I've always seen that um educating someone that's coming in and trying to do some sort of development on a piece of property that's already existing um having in hand the different options that you know grass block things like that that they could use um to do what they want to do but it also helps our our runoff and things like that so maybe if we just have a uh I you've got a lot of expertise in that we have things that we can offer up to them when they come into the City and then it's becomes a negotiation I guess um we can allow this if you do this there's there's certain give and takes that would have to be we do that a little bit now with our just with just looking at it from a storm water and drainage perspective we can we can do a little bit of give and take um when people install whatever it is they want to install um and that's kind of where that's kind of our only bargaining chip at this point we can't say as you know they could pave 99% of their site and as long as they can accommodate the required storm water on that 1% they can do it you know that's that's kind of our that's where that's where we can say that's our line um so we don't really we don't have a way of rolling back the hardscaping as well um so yeah it's all recommendations it's just we don't really have teeth in a recommendation have to come in and reduce that impervious area and then then work with them on what the new standard is a agree with you on the educational components absolutely um actually is Zach still here Zach is here Zach has prepared I'll call them handouts that that we give when we we sit with developers um I I know that one jumps to my mind is for hotel developers he's prepared a handout that he will give to for a hotel project that spell out some of the LI low impact development Concepts that the city either the city is used or we're aware of um um I think he actually Zach you want to come up to this Podium and and me talk about this real briefly um but there's there's links that that Zach has provided to actual um um companies and and Kee go ahe go ahead Z you can speak better than I can good oh there you good evening board how you doing so yes to answer your question we have a series of three development guides for three types of developers Hotel just because of how many we see in the city small business and residential and each one of them take through takes the developer through a series of things that they can do across a wide variety of topics whether that's renewable energy uh battery backup um you know generators for their home low development practices landscaping water retention it takes them through the whole Gambit and the way it does that is it basically shows things that the city is already done that they can emulate we're not really allowed to recommend you know people do certain things with a certain company but we can just at least offer the fact that hey this is the project we did this is how it went this is what we used you're free to emulate if you want and do kind of a code plus situation on their property and it has seemed to work there are a few developers that have come back more so now than beginning they're saying hey this was a good idea I think we want to try and emulate this a good example being the new hotel project on Imperial that's going up that will in fact be incorporating for the first time imp permeable conc or permeable concrete I think into their parking lots across a number of spaces which is very good and very encouraging to see a big developer like that doing it so we do have these guidelines which are available on the city's website and we also give them to developers via email uh that they can use is there a significant cost difference for permeable concrete yes there can be depending on how much you use and it also requires a maintenance plan because if you let a permeable concrete just or asphalt just kind of sit there and do its thing it'll work for only so long until it starts to clog up with material it needs to essentially be vacuumed um with a large industrial vacuum that's usually a fix to some type of truck to clean it out or it can be pressure washed but that doesn't tend to work as well over time so there is a significant cost increase comparative to normal asphalt and concrete for just implementing it per square foot and then you do need a continuous maintenance plan to vacuum it every few months or so the city has some and we pressure clean it and then like for example there's a um a cruise parking lot at the North End of the city that holds I think about 400 spaces it's entirely imp permeable concrete it's very cool we believe it's one of the largest installations of his type in the in the State of Florida it's about 3 acres in size but the developer had to do a maintenance plan to come have a back truck essentially suck it out every few months so yeah and if if if the any of the board is ever never seen how that works when it's operating a we we brought buckets of water out there or was it hoses I don't recall and just ran it and that that water went about 3 feet and it was gone it was right down into the pavement it it really works when it's when it's maintained properly that that developer was having some pretty big flood issues during construction with a traditional concrete parking lot they switched mid design or mid implementation actually to the permeable type they no longer have flooding issues goes right through the developers or anyone else get any uh sort of benefit for following leads um standards I don't believe so at this time standards think our language and our codes encourages it that's encourages it there there are no incentives or Rewards or bonuses at this point with with alternative green parking lots right I think you can get a a very modest parking bonus but it's almost it's not it's all build that's true yeah good point we need to think about how to incentivize that I don't know if there's a way but it needs to be looked at maybe you've already looked at it and said leave it as it is check it out Mr chairman uh an ordinance of this type creating an ordinance really scares me giving a city the ability to go into existing private property and tell people what they can and can't do and I think we really need to be very careful about this uh on private property residential uh to go in start telling somebody they've got to start rearranging when this is their final home this is their retirement uh they're on a fixed income and stuff uh I am not a fan of this idea of tampering with existing residential I understand there's a problem and there's a lot of things that can be done in the commercial areas and these types of pavement I've worked with uh underground storage systems I know all about them they're great I know about some of the materials but a point that was made here a moment ago was uh the amount of Maintenance that you're going to incur with these types of systems you have to have maintenance on them you put in the storm water protection systems storm tech systems like we have out here they have to be vacuumed out on a regular basis this project that's going in at the hotel the only place they're going to have to clean that thing out is is going to be that one uh structure that they put in that's going to filter a filter box that's it but those things are going to require maintenance we just got done with a large p P project over in our community having our pavers redone those pavers are there and those that's designed to soak up a lot of water it does a pretty good job of it but guess what there was a lot of maintenance involved in that so I just I caution us that uh we need to be thinking about what we're going to do with the residential and existing our our our discussions at least up to this point have been we we're not going to mandate anything it would be really applied to new construction or or maybe a Redevelopment Redevelopment at a certain level a certain maybe dollar value but I don't think the intent is is to go in and say hey you all have to uh you all have to uh make some changes in your property um in 10 years or 20 years or anything like that so am I is that correct lexier or we yeah I mean that that that's a that's a big chunk of it I think um the kind of the only tangential kind of uh piece to to what Stephen had mentioned was that if let's say a small residential site is over you know it's 60% and they're at 70% if they were ever to apply for a permit that would increase that they would immediately be denied um because it would be a non-conforming to to the standard so and that would be in you know in that that's that's that's a thought or that is an idea kind of that that it might it might kind of incur that that type of um uh review and that hey if you're already over out of compliance we can where I see this uh problem right this train wck right here is I want a swimming pool in my backyard and you denied me because uh because you've got this standard that you've come up with uh for retaining water and don't get me wrong I think it's a great idea uh you know if you want to do some of the reduction stuff let's start digging the city sidewalks up and let's start putting surfaces down that'll soak soak up there if we're going to work on one we need to work on the other yeah agreed and you'll you'll see a lot of those Concepts in our presidential streets master plan uh project that we're going to be doing Citywide you'll see a lot of storm water uh going to be a huge component of that it's going to be very expensive um but yes we recognize that uh we have to lead by example and um we are going to be looking at as we re rebuild each of these presidential streets we'll be looking for opportunities to store storm water put storm water vaults in put previous um curb and gutter in so there's going to agreed agreed with what you said yeah those are so those are the points right that we need to make sure that we can capture in terms of of how we apply a potential code that act and a potential impervia surface code is you know how do we consider things like pools and and other other considerations that can be that are improvements without continuing to you know pave Cape Canaveral Brick by Brick okay anything else yes yes yes yes I did notice your impervious map percentages um all we just did a lot of uh code changes or zoning changes that you know some of the stuff that we now have residential they're still commercial yeah this is I think two years ago yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's good but I mean if you were saying you were talking about per the zoning thing yeah we're we're going to wait on that light our data and and cross reference it with the new zoning map and and then and go from there it'll be much more representative of what's actually out there right now no it's good we should have new idar data within the next month or so as part of the National Science Foundation grant that the city was awarded last year we will be doing a comprehensive liar overflight of the city with a drone from Embry Riddle University cool um they're a partner uh on the smart rain Garden Project it's currently being constructed in the southwest corner of Veterans Memorial Park giant dirt hole right now that doesn't look so good is going to look great by the end of the by the end of the fiscal year when the grant cycle is supposed to conclude um that will be an example of the type of low impact development that we'd like to implement miniaturized within the presidential streets over the next 20 years or so so it's a case study if you will a project example of what could be done with using natural treatment and absorption methods and it will be taking storm water runoff off of Taylor whereas now it can't really do that through new cutouts underneath the curb or excuse me underneath the sidewalk uh to drain it and we'll increase the capacity of that what was a sale of just grass uh will now be filled with fla native plants thousands of them and uh W I think we're looking at about 144,000 gallons of capacity at that site which is about a 30% increase over what was uh what it was able to hold so I encourage you to go walk by it like I said it is a very ni dirt hole right now under construction but it will look great in the next few uh months and we will need planting volunteers too so stay on the lookout for that where's that property V's moal park right over here behind the library library the park is undergoing a general re Rehabilitation right now this was an add-on that we kind of landed on with extensive resident feedback of what people would like to see and it happens to be in an area that does flood so it was a kind of a win-win good thank you yeah you guys did a good job on that the National Science F this was a phase two Grant in light of a phase one grant that was a lot of back and forth with residents trying to figure out what some of the things they'd like to see implemented now we have heard through the great find that the National Science Foundation might release a phase three for even more money and if they do that is where we would apply certainly for presidential Street's master plan funding to say hey we took took your grant money we made this beautiful smart rain Garden um now we want to apply it to Street Scapes what we like let's see what we can do and I should touch on the fact of why I said smart rain Garden so a lot of low impact development features right now are you know we know they work but there isn't the most scientific data to say absolutely how much they treat storm water how much they uh can retain it and whatnot so this rain garden over here will be wired up with sensors so we will be able to ex how much runoff goes into it how much nutrients are coming into it and going out of it um and there's a weather station that was in installed in the dumpster or not in the dumpster but in the dumpster in the dumpster shelter right next to the Rain Garden that will show we'll be able to correlate treatment with actual rain patterns that we observed in real time so we'll be able to use that data and then apply it in engineering across the presidential streets or any other city city site we want to build so it's pretty cool then you have a little area where you can new developers you come see my rain Gard absolutely it's meant not only to be a physical you know treatment medium for the city but also to be a real world education piece for anybody that comes and sees it there'll be educational signage explaining what it is why why it does what it does and why it's important and how it was funded any other questions for Zach okay thank you Zach welcome uh anything else David no sir except that I would um I hope all of you have recently received a invitation to our board appreciation dinner um or slash event coming up here do we know when that's happen in February like the 27th or something of February okay okay so anyways if you haven't received one please let me know you have not received one Dr Miller okay I'll make February 29th February 29th just this will be at the Rison we're going to be meeting at the Rison it's going to be this is something the city used to do Lamar probably remembers when that was uh when that was a common practice every year we would have an appreciation dinner that for one reason or rather it fell off but I think it's important and Mr Morley our city Man City fit is good if you haven't eatting at the Rison I go over there once a month to the National Space club meeting it's where they have their meeting uh the Rison staff uh they put out a good meal so if they're going to serve it you'll eat well um I was just going to say with uh the American Planning Association Atlantic Coast section we're going to be hosting uh the lunch learn we going to have some people from City of Orlando um couple private sector companies Valia County um talking about just different micr Mobility uh projects they're working on that's February 23rd which is a Friday from 11 to two um be C it will beor that's a good point it will be held at C5 upstairs at C5 Mr chairman I've got one quick another announcement I I I blew uh I blew the horn for Lexi I also want to recognize Kyle he recently um was passed his exam he's now an aicp certified planner that's an American Institute of certified planners all right which is congratulations congratulations which is which is great and also we have an osprey Award winner over here um I don't know if what yeah every once a year the Statewide this is a Statewide award award um the Sierra Club Awards to a individual for outstanding um um I don't know you can probably explain it better than I can but our Zach was awarded a uh CER the this year's um Osprey award and I I was looking at the list of past recipients there's some Heavy Hitters on that list Statewide Representatives Senators um Disney folks city of Orlando folks and our own Zach I got it this year so very proud of Zach as [Applause] well you guys let us do cool stuff so thank you well as a board we're very blessed to have good staff work and we appreciate the work you guys do yes anything else I do have um one thing I'm I'm so sorry uh just kind of piggybacking off of uh Zach's um summary of Our National Science Foundation project right our smart rain Garden one of the deliverables that we hope to get out of that outside of what we're kind of bringing up to the National Science Foundation at the end of this the program cycle um is to examine you know as Zach said the effectiveness and the the information the data that we collect for low impact development as a storm water management technique and and so that we can drive discussions at the state level for code and policy um in terms of Clean Water um so we will be going to council uh then this next council meeting to request that they uh pass a workshop like a conjoined workshop with the board and the council and obviously the public to discuss what low impact development policy looks like uh because as Zach said right now it's like a very cool like okay pat on the back you did it type of deal but it's there's really nothing Cod ified um and we know that it works you know it's a it's a nature-based solution um and it's working you know we we just need that at empirical data and and that kind of um a little bit more substance behind how we how we go about it in our development mediums so um just to give you guys a heads up correct I sit here and talk about exting appity okay please do all right with that uh I declare this meeting adjourned all right for you