##VIDEO ID:CJBMd0RTki0## she rented uh building off J Barnes upstairs and we've been like following each other around so that was my my skate Saturday night when I would closed my wife and I would try to get out of there no later than 12 and go toin and try to get by three it was yeah we we enjoyed I like morning yeah she's good good thing good thing so this is this is a good board this is a big board H is it well it's 7 plus two 7 plus two anyone here for this um be is always a little questionable I'm not sure whether the be is going to be here although I spoke with her yesterday so I think she will be here and Steve will be here Lorraine will not Lorraine won't be here yeah she said something's going on tonight she has a it's every January because of reorganization she has two meetings the same night yeah I saw her her car was here she didn't go to school either for some reason she is our Council liaison yeah okay and presumably will she's I'm on the uh she probably will remain as our Council on development she's our counsel a on on that as well plus she's chair she's got a few things going on what do you think that girl's bus one on paper she decides to do a project she gets involved and gets done I'll tell you what I rather to have her than two mechanics I look I'm with you because even if she can't do it right she's going to do it and she'll learn how to do yeah yeah she'll figure it out that's what I could use a good mechanic right right now Hey Jake I was just telling all stories all war stories about you he said he said all those years and you never arrested him once tell you what I tell you some things he arrested he was just a summer he wasn't a chief then no no I mean when he became Chief and he had full Powers well he Yi ran a nightclub we were making 250 an hour at sums we go in the back you know me at the I remember my starting wage was a dollar and a quarter and I had to give 15 cents of it to the union oh wow now that's ridiculous we um the great a Pacific Tea Company I remember that we um my first job was at restaurant Z Ed zabers yeah to ziz it my mom and dad like to Zab ziz one and a half I think they were yeah well it it was later known as the country club poor yeah my um my mother's sister her husband's brother was a bender for Ed Zer for years and it was two brothers Charlie and Ed Charlie approached my uncle's brother and said I want to open a place up near the Atlantic City racetrack and the Old Atlantic City RAC trck and he didn't do it and it became a big success really he wouldn't even ride P it was much you know was a year round yeah no no no that was that was big business in those days oh yeah in the G in the days when there were no other ways to gamble lobster thermador what was there side gambling going on the outside the Atlantic City racetrack yeah all the time good evening are so this is your uh this your new seating chart it is my I just said right my name so Judy gave me that assignment so I moved people around I wanted to make sure there was a woman well no so far no F fights have broken out moving Jak good I feel good that good good I just wanted this all my life Hey listen if it doesn't work out you can move this around again around again like this month you'll be taking different seats well part of the reason also is that Judy um thank you for getting my name it's a it was a challenge for you J to sit there because take a coups see you and communicate with you and even though there are microphone she can't hear you as well I'm loud enough usually usually so maybe it's more Janice but she said the three people doesn't get much those three so we decided Well you won't have any trouble hearing yogi no so we have some o to do we have a your your chair is not here yet no he'll be here a long walk from Hugh Street okay usually okay pay bills what' you do screw something up I'll put it right after isn't it at the end say again isn't it at the end the additional business doesn't include pays did I know I mean she just forgot it think so say l put it up front excuse me John lorine is not coming she's not okay thank you hey Judy yes right after we do the appointment of so Chris is the New Year bringing you new legal challenges in the first like like a snow emergency council meeting it's uh it's always bringing new surprises and difficulties but that's part of the job that's I I'm surprised he didn't make you shovel snow again God that was awful was it I F I've been I'm the quiet guy in the East End I sat there on Monday I said okay keep snowing keep snowing 3:00 I was out with the shovel 3 hours into the dark I shoveled I had 8 10 Ines easy maybe more in the driveway and I thought wow am I freaking tired in had a drink had a meal Genie's up in Princeton just gallan so so the next day I wake up 30% of what I shovel is blown back on the driveway again go out two days in a row by the end of the week I was so inspired I have a I have a 7 and 1 half power Aran snowthrower that I had when we Newell I moved it to pron 30 years ago I haven't used it since it's still in the garage in prinston John do you know Steve is coming Steve is coming yes it sorry here are all our little meetings soy move it down I've made a few mistakes that before you know be I feel like I'm in the penalty you are you have you have to you have to earn your way back onto the ice but but don't feel bad about it when the TV cameras come on they only get the side of your head so so Yogi look to your right a lot right look to your look to your right a lot so Yogi I figured your right side was better instead of putting you over there I put you there yeah Jake and I all right you guys create a Ruckus I'll bring you one next time that well we're we're inform informal and loose but not that loose it's me you tooo I the best dress you weren the worst dress he he said cloth are mandatory yeah yes so was I was my assessment accurate Yogi take a look except for our our lustrious you can always tell the solicitor in this group by who wears the tie I could swear I put one by your [Music] place but we can we can look on together well you when you get rolling there's nothing I can do to quiet you down you probably can't you're sitting there you probably can't I'm going to turn this off so that doesn't get rolling yeah it's a good idea or you could do what uh you could do what Janice what what Paul said to Jan so I'm talking and he text me said he text will you [Laughter] shut you shut J your mouth from somewhere off in the outer stratosphere yeah she looks at me she said I I didn't have time to tell you but Paul said shut shut you up well this looks like a fairly short meeting tonight maybe we're you know us we can take any short meeting and turn it into a 50% overage well uh maybe that will happen a little bit less I can't I still I still can't figure out what these people are doing with the ra it's like every time we get the same package and we get reduced number of things but they're not telling us what they're doing yeah yeah is that I want you to jum is that is that because we'll just say no good to see you good to see you brother ni sweater look at you guys I didn't get the memo uh well you have a nice blue sweater I no I don't everything I is black you really we have to go over the blue you if you had tats you'd be a real great goth tell you no but there's a reason I have substantial reason occurred in 1993 for black it's an old myth um wonderful book called iron John by Robert BL who's a poet it's all about um coming to Shadow and becoming what is a male in our culture which is really a challenge that we do live in a get so it's a long story it's a myth about this young boy and uh paring about two third of the way through the myth he starts working for the becomes a warrior and the first battle he goes out on a white horse Second Battle he goes out on a red horse third battle he goes out on a black horse well I mean it also simplifies your wardrobe me enormously never have to right there's always one touch of color although although in in in in a color movie you're probably pretty draft although those old no films watch films we do there's no reason no we we have pretty much been addicted to nor Alle on TCM right but I don't get I record and oh the one that was on this week was great was the was Dane Clark stuff was the one Dawn the Sailor it's one of it's like one of the top two most famous um he he shows up and and woman who's going to return the money to dead I probably have it recorded but we do watch we do watch it pretty pretty closely you our film guy yeah a little not as much as what you sounding like well those guys figured out how to make uhuh dep and texture just yeah and so that's been your aspiration it's that time want to well there's plenty of opportunity for here you know that K may could use a little more you're getting close to calling the meeting we are yeah I got my hammer already here get that hammer out I'm pretty soon I'm going to pass it right down the road unless the voting goes wrong I want to get a silver I want to be Max you'll take the wooden one and like it yeah we have a full house here tonight don't we we do well you know it's an important meeting first one of the Year everybody wants to get elected well I thought didn't come for that reason all right oh you're very close almost on the dot good evening everybody this is the C May City Historic preservation commission uh we are meeting on January 13th starting our meeting right at 6pm uh in compliance with the open public meetings Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided if any member has reason to believe that this meeting is being held in violation of that act they should state so at this time hearing none I'll ask everybody to join us for the pledge of allegiance to the flag I pledge alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all Judy before you do the roll call uh to everybody I would like to introduce you to our newest member uh you might know him as Yogi but his real name is William CTS and before we can do anything we have to ISS uh we have to give him the oath of off office right now okay for the guys actually Tom we need to do the roll first that's part of reorganization oh okay well we can do it twice if you like yeah I'll I'll just let I'll let them finish up here and then we'll do the roll call okay Judy I think we're ready for the roll call Mr Carol here Mr here here Mr here here here here Mr Johnson here Mr C here thank you one an attendance so I don't have to do that again now okay uh we are also missing and very sorry about it our former chair uh Warren copelan uh after many years on the board decided he wanted to get into other things so the first thing we need to do which we would be doing in January anyway is have a new elections for our officers and also solicitor and uh also pick people for uh news media for our announcements so I would like to start with a nomination for the uh chairman of the board and since I have the microphone on I would like to Eno I would like to nominate John Becker uh to be our chairman for this year and calling for a second all second a nomination and uh Jima has second it uh is there any other nomination for chairman of the board hearing none can I call for a unanimous vote for Jim Walker as our new chairperson John Walker maybe it's the two of us Mr Carol yes here yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hamran yes Mr Tessa yes John you can either Vote or not abstain Please Mr Johnson yes thank you due to elected I am now having the pleasure of turning the meeting over to John thank you who will handle the elections of the vice chairman okay so I'd like to nominate as Vice chair Jim Testa do I hear a second second second second whoa there's three seconds got in there first I think I have the votes yeah I let's give the I think I heard B first you did okay so is there any discussion hearing none Judy can we have a roll call please Mr Carol yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hamar yes Mr Tesa uh in keeping with our chair's moral stance I abstain Mr Becker yes Mr Johnson yes thank you okay next order of business is to appoint our legal advisor and solicitor for 2025 for the commission and I would like to make a motion to nominate Chris Gillan Schwarz I'll second okay we have a second any discussion I I'd like to make a comment please um I we've had Chris now working with us for the past here um and um I I wanted to say that from a legal perspective because I think I have some perspective about that um I think we've been really really well represented he's been easy to work with and I think the the important part is he's found for us um sometimes during meetings some very interesting and Creative Solutions so I I would I would highly recommend that we continue and vote in favor of Chris for our solicitor thank you Mr Carol yes yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hammeron yes Mr Testa yes Mr Becker yes thank you next order of business is to designate our official newspaper and in keeping with aligning with all of the other departments here in Kate may I would like to make a motion that we have our official newspaper shifted to the K May County heral to align with how everybody else in K at the city level is doing it so I will second that motion any discussion folks hearing none Judy Mr car yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hammerin yes Mr Tessa yes Mr Becker yes thank you next order of business is to officially designate meeting dates and times for 2025 and those are in your packets everybody and in short it's the third Monday of each month with the acception of February and November due to President's Day and Thanksgiving week and also the first meeting in 2026 for reorganization so with that in mind I would like to make a motion that we approve the meeting dates and times for 2025 as were published in your packet we hear a second I'll second that thanks Janice any discussion hearing none Judy Mr Carol yes Miss pagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hammerin yes Mr Tesa yes Mr Becker yes thank you next order of business is we have as you guys all know been having Tuesday Morning review meetings and there are three of us who have been conducting those meetings now that Warren's not here I would like to um appoint and make a motion to appoint on that Review Committee myself as chair Kevin who has been doing it um for this entire past year and um alternating every other week between Yogi and Steve as our alternates as a way to continue to learn and become um more deeply involved with what we're trying to do on Tuesday Mornings now with that said I'd also like to shift those meetings to 9 o' on Tuesday mornings and the reason for that is to adjust more with um folks schedules seems like that's a more appropriate time and one last thing is I'd also like to propose that instead of taking the Tuesday off after our meetings so traditionally we have not not met on the Tuesday after our Monday meetings given the workload that we have and I would say the more prominence of folks coming to speak with us which I think is a really good thing I'd like to propose that we have it every Tuesday and not take the Tuesday off so for example we would meet tomorrow morning and every month accordingly so with that um I make the motion that the Review Committee consist of myself Kevin and every other week Yogi and Steve as sched ual allow go hear a second second the motion any discussion I think I'd like to say something about it this this is part of um um of of a really good pattern and that's taking alternates who generally have shorter service on the commission and giving them a chance to do the nuts and bolts work um that are involved in the applications in review those applications come in um at sometimes a furious rate and a great way to learn how they're handled is to do them in small committees and and that's that's been a good education for everybody who's served in that review function so this is a good step toward furthering education um of our process I'm fine with it yeah with the length of so of the time of some of our evening meetings they might not even need to go home uh oh I'll I'll bring snacks that's an interesting point any other discussion folks Judy Mr Carol yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Stevenson Mr hammerin yes Mr Tesa yes Mr yes thank you okay um in your packets to prepare for this meeting from Judy thank you Judy you were all given believe a copy of the minut meeting minutes from our last meeting on January 13th did everybody get a copy of those like to entertain a motion for approving those minutes I move I second any discussion hearing none Judy Mr Carol yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hammerin yes Mr Tesa yes Mr Becker yes thank you on to uh that really concludes then um our reorganization our minutes and resolutions well last thing is we did have one resolution that was also in your packet and that's the resolution authorizing the appointment of Christopher Gillan Schwarz Esquire as solicitor for the historic preservation commission for the period of January 20 January 1st through December 31st of 2025 five to entertain a motion to approve that resolution so move second any discussion hearing none let's vote okay Mr Carol yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strk yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hammeron yes Mr Testa yes Mr Becker yes thank you thank you everybody I look forward to working with everybody again this year excellent applications approved and denied in review there is a list of them that Judy has put on your agenda and I would like to entertain a motion to approve those applications approved and denied interview so moved second having been moved and seconded any discussion Mr Carol yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Stevenson Mr hammeron yes Mr Tesa yes Mr Becker yes thank you okay now on to projects so first on our agenda this evening under old business is Rond project at 226 Grand Street Katherine I know you were here it looks like your owner is here as as well um I'd like to just give a little background to this submission if I could please so you may recall that a year ago we authorized demolition of the house at 226 Grand Street with one exception and that was there was a portion of that house at the back that was to have remained and not been demolished which was is going to be incorporated into the design of the new house that was being proposed in the intervening period zoning issues led the owner to also desire knocking down that last portion of the house which I believe Katherine was from 1954 said that again the last portion of the house yeah oh no it was later than that um it was built in about 2007 2000 okay yes so in other words what we're hearing now oh and after that we also then in January of last year a year ago we approved the conceptual review or we approve approve conceptually the design of the new house so if I'm not mistaken Katherine you're here and your owner to do two things one is to get an amendment to the demolition to allow for get approval for demolishing everything and second is I believe it's final approval of the revised design that incorporates all new house is that correct yes so could you both please just state your name and um for the record please and where your role is yeah uh Anthony caparzo actually son-in-law of the owner so not property owner hi Anthony Katherine lorence architect so Katherine was that a an an accurate description of status to date yes that was actually going to be my first sentence um thought I'd save you the time yes uh because I want to ex I I know you guys see a lot of different projects uh and I'm going to sort of give an overview uh there are two parts to this old business and the first part uh I've added some uh additional items to your packet and the first part is an Dum to the approval of the demolition this house uh a year ago uh we got approval to demolish 2third of this house and the rear portion of this house was going to be elevated um then after we got approval for that we also received uh conceptual approval to rebuild the front front portion of the house and to um move forward to the zoning we were going to need to have zoning approval we were denied zoning approval for what we wanted to do back to the drawing board I go so uh this uh business that we're going to talk about is sort of two parts the first part I call the addendum to the demolition this house this this is the first Little Packet this house if we talk about it uh was built in three sections the first two sections were approved to be demolished which is a copy of the resolution also attached to your packet I show here in a diagram here is is that we are proposing now to add demolition to the third rear portion of the house which is a one-story building with a deck on top uh the rear portion meets all of the criteria of the points that were approved in the original demolition the house was the addition was built in 20 2007 it is below flood it is a non-contributing as is the rest of the building I don't know if I need to read through all the points again but they would be the same as the original demolition just to be clear miss laoren you just stated this but the you would incorporate everything that you applied for the original application to this a amended demolition application so there's nothing the same basis that you used before for the partial demolition you would propose for this entire demolition exactly okay it meets the exact same criteria as the original demolition that was approved and the points are exactly the same just just for my own learning what was the intention to save it in the first place was there a I mean it was preferred to save it but it was a financial uh decision okay uh it still was below flood but we thought we could save the building bring up but it it also put us over the F and the loot coverage it was just too big uh so we weren't saving anything by raising the building it's also worth pointing out that at the back end of her addendum Katherine has included her description from the original November 2023 demolition permit responding to the nine points writing so are are there any questions about the demolition portion of this and if you need to see pictures uh of what the rear looks like it would be in the application that we're going to discuss now but it just to be clear Mr friends just and for a potential resolution I just want to confirm something Mr Johnson asked you the the driving factor for retaining a portion of the premises before was not HPC considerations it was your own planning and cost efforts and cost savings and Zoning issues dealing with f but it wasn't some historic preservation purpose no it had nothing to do with the historic preservation commission it is a non-contributing uh addition that was built in 2007 thank you so I have a question for our solicitor do we need to create a new resolution for this or can we in fact do this via addendum to the original demolition resolution what we whatever we do tonight will be embodied in in a new resolution because I think you're you're here for final right you've already got zoning yes we're we we're here for final approval for the design of the new house so procedurally just for the board's edification we can potentially do a resolution that incorporates both Demolition and the final design it would be one resolution and it incorporate both of those things that said then would you like to continue pres presenting the final yes submission yes so we can put this resolution aside and we can put put this piece of paper aside I also included which we will get to is um some revised elevations to the front of the house but I would like to put that off to the side for a minute and go through the application Page by page I won't I won't dwell on everything but I I think that some people weren't here for the original presentation and may have some questions uh we were approved for uh conceptual approval the first page of Catherine may I interrupt for just a second just for everybody's edification here the the conceptual approval that was approved on January 8th of 2024 was conditional upon three vertical Dormer windows and removing the cross-hatching those are the only conditions at that time yes so uh if we if we start off with the cover page this uh elevation will change slightly after some advice from you all uh and we will get to that when we go over the architectural drawings this house is located at 266 Grand Street uh on one side of Grand Street are historic homes on this side of grand stre Street the homes are non-contributing um the first page indicates that we are going to build a new house the second page goes over the materials and I have a materials list and I have cut sheets and and you might want to revise your foundation submission because wolf Serenity decking isn't your foundation it's block on page 27 if you look at your materials checklist yes under Foundation you've got a repeat of the wolf Serenity decking but you really meant the block and yes I did P 27 yes I did so I'm just going to take that as a corrected type of yes uh the foundation would be uh piles CMU and um brick veneer and you have pointed that out on page 27 of your um if we go to page four it shows us uh the taxes are paid page five gives us the names of the owner and the building information page six locates the block uh and lot of the house which is about four houses away from Broadway page seven indicates that this is in a R2 Zone and it's in a historic Zone even though this house is non-contributing page eight you would need a magnifying glass to read this but this is the survey and the reason I bring the survey up is we did a averaging survey because the houses are all different on that block with relationship to the front setback and I just want to point that out to you because that'll be indicated in the design when we had the averaging Serv done uh the average front yard setback would be 15 and a half feet um page nine indicates that we're in a flood zone a flood zone of 8 feet so the first floor of any house designed in this area would have to be at 10t above flood uh so that everyone is aware most most of the house there was a railroad station I understand or a turnaround in this area most of these houses that were built on this side of the street were built in the 1960s our house is a little Cape Cod with various additions to it um none of those houses on that area adjacent my house my client's house are uh are within the elevation that they need to be to comply with FEMA so uh page 10 and 11 indicates by the city that this house is below flood page 12 is the city survey uh the most important thing on the city survey would be page 13 which indicates that the house was bu built somewhere uh after 1956 that's the first portion of the house that we got approved to demolish this middle portion of the house was built sometime in the 70s or 80s and then the rear portion of the house that we want to demolish in addition to the front portion uh was built in 2007 and then the second page number 14 indicates that this is a non-contributing building so it meets the requirements and we did receive approval for demolition page 15 is the streetcape across the street from us are historic homes you can see an example of that on page 15 below that is on our side of the street and these homes are newer there are some that are very new and there are some that were built in the 60s if we go to the next page the front P the top picture indicates our little Cape Cod with the big black Arrow that's the house we want to demolish uh the bottom picture indicates the house across the street uh page 17 Again shows the top uh shows the houses along the neighbors to our little 266 Grand Street if we go to the next page it shows the rear of the house uh with a deck this is a portion that we are adding to the demolition to demolish this rear portion of the house if we go to page 19 it shows the front of the house and the side of the house with a spiral staircase that leads up to the rear deck page 20 I don't think is uh is all zoning notes we comply now the new design complies with all zoning requirements page 21 is a page that I uh had a lot of discussions with at the last meeting we are trying uh with this design to meet the criteria of massing and also to um as our inspiration was homes around the area that look like Bungalows so we're trying to do two things we're we're reminiscent of the Bungalow style which if you walk around the corner on um Windsor Avenue there's a whole bunch of Bungalows around there right down the street there are Bungalows but what uh the bottom of this uh photograph shows you is is a compilation of what's existing now none of those homes with the exception of the neighbor to the immediate right are compliant with the FEMA height all of those homes are non-contributing the value of these properties are too high for them to stay this way they are either going to have to raise these homes or they're going to be demolished and what I'm trying to um describe in my uh above diagram is that the new house that we are proposing closing and all of the other homes in that area if they were raised to the proper height our house will uh fit in with the new homes the massing would be correct in my humble opinion we have also designed this house so that it is 32 Fe 9 in above flood we would be allowed to be 40 ft above flood 40 in but to comply with the massing and to blend in with the neighborhood uh we chose to make the house not the full height that was allowed but to try to make a house that still will blend in with the neighborhood uh I'm not sure if if you want to go over all of the different products but I have cut sheets at the end asphaltic roof that would be diamond shaped many of these mongalo used asbestos tiles that were sort of diamond in shape we're not using asbestos anymore but I am proposing diamond shaped tiles uh the next sheet shows Hardy plank the house will be sided with Hardy plank board it will be we will have Hardy uh beadboard in the facia uh the windows excuse me um regarding the Hardy plank yes um you have I it it looks like you've selected Cedar Mill the embossed wood yes that um in practice we've only approved a plane we've never approved anything that had the embossed woodl I mean I think would be acceptable yeah when people have done it before we've yes required it to be so I'm I'm going to make a note that we would use the Hardy uh smooth plank board yeah I don't see I mean just has like a wood yeah okay um Anderson 400 series windows with would be used uh for the windows and uh one door we're proposing to have the trim around the windows and the trim on the columns and the railing to be as manufactured by Intex which is a local mill worker up out of ma Landing uh but in essence it's a PVC material uh replicates wood that would be for the railings the trim uh around windows the column enclosures then on page 26 we're calling out decking to be wolf decking which is also a PVC decking it would be a wood grain look that would be at the front porch that would be at the rear porch and that would be at the screen in porch at the rear the house uh on page 27 we show brick veneer that would be used uh in any uh Foundation areas or any uh proposed piles up in the front porch and then finally we come to the drawings uh so I'm going to put the application down and I'm going to I ask just one question yes I came to the party late this facade does not look like this facade that's right so can somebody just would were the railing change approved yes okay that's why that's why I reissued this and I'm going to talk about that right now okay great so the first drawing in the packet ask question two before you move on one is are you do I understand right that you're going to retain the garage the garage is going to remain okay and then the other thing is you've already made agreed to one change Chris you usually ask them if they're authorized to speak for the owner we so we we've um instituted a practice before an application proceeds without the owner present and then it's that they authorize in writing via email so miss Loren has been authorized before by the owner and they've acknowledged that with Judy and that I brought that up was because they agreed one thing already tonight right asked that question and and just so the board's aware we Judy and I instituted that practice to avoid having that conversation every time you're not even heard unless you tell us in writing who's authorized to speak on your behalf before you get here um and and Mr uh caparoso is here um but really um Miss Loren was the authorized individual through through email so they are okay with that change that you would propose as well um so Mr of course they were they were totally fine with excuse mey could you spell your last name owner to approve uh c a p o r i z zo o thank you so much y before we move on just one final question the brick the brick veneer will be the red brick yes it would be the red red brick okay and we are proposing red brick in the driveway ribbons and in the rear okay of the house so C to be clear yes what you're presenting tonight for final approval is this last set of two pages g0000 and AO3 dat yes January 2nd 2025 and that's Yogi in response to our conceptual approval asking for I I noticed the dates but I just I didn't hear any they two different houses to substantially those are the only changes you've made since the conception that's really what we needed to hear okay so I issued these two sheets to be substituted with the packet uh after uh discussion with the HPC new commissioner congratulations thank you so Katherine I only have one comment um and I I think a bunch of folks have asked questions the only thing that is inconsistent given the prior set and the new set is that the floor plans on A1 second floor plan still shows those three windows so in order for us to have a complete and final set of accurate drawings we would need to see that floor plan revised to show the single middle window due to the time understood I I thought it was more important to change the elevations yep and we would fix the plan uh when we start the construction yeah we only spoke late last week as I recall right so we jumped on it yep so um are there questions do we want to go around the room Yogi do you have any further questions I just um why why was the the the facade change the rail I'm be honest with you I like the old rail better than the new rail very sterile this is Kate May yeah but I'm assuming it was approved by the board and the homeowner liked it better talking about the Chinese chip and deal yeah the change from one to the other yeah yeah the new one's just playing over the new one's just playing it's this has got the chip Andale yeah it's got the new one has the chip Andale pardon me the new one has the chip Andale is that what it's called chip Andale okay yeah Chinese CH I'm talking about the design in the front rails ah is what I'm speaking about they are they are it just it just the old one was straight right the new one is yeah it's this is what was I me it's it's it's day and night when you look at the house it's day and night yeah to me so Katherine would you like to respond to that okay the the design of the house is more is is exactly the same there are two things that were changed one is instead of having these three funny little Windows here right M on the second floor on the second floor we put in one double hung window that would be more in keeping with the uh style of the building and the pattern of the first floor frustration exactly so it it just lines up the windows line up better than what was originally proposed okay okay then the second thing was we had uh a year ago had a meeting with the informal panel and it was decided that the chip Andale style inserted panel was more um the decorative panel was uh the preferred use for the railing so it didn't translate to the new set of drawings so that's why I issued showing that we are going to insert the decorative panel in the railings uhhuh okay mhm as opposed to what we show here yeah here is just just a straight up and down yeah all the way around okay I for some reason maybe I just don't have that did you get the this one uh it was in there too in the packet yeah yeah that's that that is going to be the appearance's that's the final g0 dated January 2nd yeah is the latest set yeah okay I mine was dated January 7th which we made a year old wow that's why this this is December 26th yeah yeah there they drawings were uh revised after I made the initial submission but there's a there's a stamp on our plans but that's an HPC stamp the revised plan with the new window and the chip and down that's is dated 126 2024 correct that's what my g0000 is right it's dat the day after good actually it's not it's got a second HPC date up under issue oh that's right right so that's yes it has a second not the receive date but and this might be easier to if the second sheet that's stapled it might be easier to see the elevation there I'm not sure doesn't make much difference this is latest this is the one I like I was just going by the dates that I saw okay so my I apologize so so you you got what you suggested yeah yeah so hey my my first thing I did write maybe I don't know it's a little complicated because so we we'll clean this up at the end here I think I have a way to clean this up so okay Steve but it appears that the two suggestions that were given by the board at the time have been addressed do we agree with that that's what I understand windows so with that being said I mean I think that the client or the applicant has done uh what they needed to do to address thec that were granted at that were addressed that were mentioned at the time new design seems appropriate and professional to me and I would suggest Tom good yes yeah I I I agree with Steve Steve's observation yeah good idea St Janice I agree Jake yes one thing I just want to compliment you too on the fact that a little detail like all the exposed rafter Tales you don't see that too often and it really helps it blend into the fabric of the community I think those kind of details can make a build it really stands out very very good since Jake brought that up in lots of those wands the extended rafters have a cut just a little bit so they uh you know they come out and it has a cut in it a 45 degree cut uh you'll see that in a lot of the Bungalow buildings and I certainly would mind if you follow that The Bu if you look at the building right behind the main stay in that Bungalow right there has a very good example of that I've walked by that many times yeah and and I've seen a lot of others like to give yes yeah so I'm going to add that to the uh detail sheet okay for the construction documents B coms I don't have anything okay how about you Kevin Kevin sorry just make sure your mic's on typically when we um when we are are dealing with a a renovation of a house that has a structure behind it like the garage um we usually require that the garage blend in with the design and structure of the house so that you know they look like the same you're not just renovating the front house you're tearing it down so are is the garage now in keeping with the house the look of the house the garage is a plain garage that was probably built around 1970 um we were not planning to do any work at this time on the garage is it sided similar to the house it's a square box that holds two cars so and has a gabled roof okay so I I mean is what's what's the exterior look like on the garage is it a is it a like a just a similar to clap if it has Windows on either side of the doors windows just an entrance door to the right of the actual garage door um blue trim with white siding that matches the current structure okay okay I guess I'm good with that okay so um with all that said I would like to make a motion that we Grant final approval based on the following four conditions and then one clarification that the materials I'm sorry the application indicate foundations of pile CMU with brick veneer number two that you revise A1 on the second floor plan to indicate one middle window on the second floor in the front to be consistent with the elevations three Hardy plank smooth instead of embossed wood texture four rafter tail revision and that the fifth condition that I would like to request is that you make one last final set of drawings with a current date that incorporates all of these conditions and revisions so that our field representative will have one set of documents he can use rather than looking at three or four and that you submit that with a cover letter that identifies and itemizes those above four revisions that you've made and where we can find them in the drawings to make it easy for the Review Committee to look very clearly and say yep the set of documents is accurate and in accordance with what this motion was and I would just that handles the construction part it doesn't handle the demolition part that that was going to be my next comment thank you yes we have to knock the other one down before she can build the new one up so um we'll amend the may I amend your resolution I would I would I would move that the the resolution on table be amended to include a permission for demolition of the U uh of the structure that is applied for uh it having been found that you made all the necessary points required by our ordinance to establish the uh right for demolition but excluding the garage right excluding the garage but you you haven't asked for that no it's keeping the you you never asked for demolition for the garage I never asked for permission to I wanted I just wanted to confirm the motion excluded the garage it's going to remain and Chris from a procedure perspective approving the Demolition and the new um construction is appropriate generally we bate the two so I'm just trying to generally we would and we can but given the nature of this application and it's already kind of 90% of the way there right I think the board can entertain a motion for both great having having added that can I second your motion you may all right so I will second the motion as as uh amended or as supplemented any further discussion other than one last point I'd like to make generally Katherine we are attempting to reduce the number of conditions in final reviews because it gets very very complicated to try and match a whole set of minor revisions in a full set of documents that's why I'm requesting a completely new set of documents that would allow us with a cover letter to very quickly identify them in review so you don't have to to come back next month and sit before us and give us 13 more copies got it is that okay okay okay any other uh comments discussion let's take a vote Mr Carol yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr Stevenson Mr hammeron Mr Testa yes Mr Becker yes thank you thank you Katherine thank you thank you very much congratulations and a happy New Year happy you thank you so I guess you can tell your uh is it Mr karito it's your dad mom father-in-law father-in-law the first good thing I've had to tell them there we go congratulations happy New Year well y okay um next on the agenda is CMC of Kate May LLC 721 Beach Avenue um if you could please come up and tell us who you are and what your role is this is I think your oh fourth or fifth time with us well counted at least three so we've been in these meetings three times and at least twice that I can recall maybe three times in review meetings on Tuesday morning so you just like come in here yeah yeah have a little party so could you please introduce yourselves my name's Gwen Finley I'm the owner I'm Scott Johnson I'm the contractor of Johnson handyman and home remodelers floor is yours okay well I think we finally came down to something that we could possibly use um it is a TimberTech product it's the closest to a wood look I think we discussed this before as a matter of fact I think he showed it we showed it to Kevin showed it to John there um as a matter of fact I don't know if we pointed out the one I'm move this chair pointed out the one the exact one that be and this is made by ASAC it's the closest to possible wood that you can have without being actual wood um the mounts on it are the ones that I was looking for which are I can inspect we can make sure sure that they're going to be um that they're safe they're tight um and because like I said we do go up to a fourth floor and we're we're concerned with people leaning against them which they do you have people that are sitting in the chairs there again in front of the hotel room and other you know linebackers leaning against the railings we want to make sure those linebackers stay on the third [Laughter] floor coupling points so after discussing with you and Kevin um we picked this one and so we're just here for the approval now so that we can start our work okay so can I yeah can I comment on a couple of things one is they have come to the Review Committee several times at least twice um I think we um we all had initially considered the idea of having wood railings could not really find a product that matched up well with that um in reviewing all the other properties are are along the same front of the of the beach there they're all using this or a very very similar product um the house is or the structure is non-contributing we should note that and um so this is the one that along with well actually we looked at two and either one of them seemed to meet our our requirements we found where this is consistent with the standards so we you know we did check for that um I that's about all I can give it from the Review Committee John any comments just going to go around the yeah sure Jake any comments um looks good to me okay James I I walked by a few times and I thought yeah that would that would look good that would be fine I mean it's a lot I'm I'm glad to see glad to see that somebody's finally chosen a product and um having handled this one and seen one it's it's better than what I've seen for I I would appreciate though when you put in the application that it stopped saying or aluminum I to cross that out well not in mine you did it's uh it's similar AAC or aluminum so so I'm assuming you're not submitting aluminum you're submitting the TimberTech correct that's the AAC and that's what you intend to do that and I'm assuming also this is um a final approval yes yes cuz nothing's checked on my and my last question is we're not stick building right it's coming in sections from the from the ASAC Factory correct it's it's coming in sections yes and and uh fortunately it looks a lot better than some of the other bracketing and couplings and things I mean it was uh some of that was Prett it's been a guessing game no some of that was pretty pretty bad looking I mean this stuff is at least credible looking it'll look nice I'm I'm glad you've progressed to that so um I'm I'm okay with it great thank you so this couples to the post mhm and looking at these it looks like the coupling that it uses is as about as close to Invisible as possible it doesn't reach out and bulk it up at the size no no what that is is um there will be a l bracket underneath of it or a metal bracket that kind of Blends into the handrail and kind of hidden you may see a little bit of that in between that and the post is a small thin rubber gasket Maybe about a 16th of an inch and that keeps the water from flowing inside and uh and that's pretty much invisible uh compared to other mounts that were on the other railings and the spacing uh between your ballustrades are or what I think there's 3.5 in in between uh 4 Ines at the centers with a spindle of with a with with a spindle of what of a ballister spindle in between the balls the ballister what's what's the thickness of the ballister oh it's uh 1.25 in or in one quarter plus we've seen so many of them 54 at 4 in Center yeah exactly so it's it's the same as like a wooden spindle like You' get at Home Depot or all right thank you same thickness Steve any coms no nothing for me sounds like the process yeah I'm good I like that it's a nice product can I make one more comment just for the benefit of the applicant here and that's remember to that they are going to replace the chain link fence that's around the pool with the same material the application does say that it does and we once we get rid of the aluminum I'm assuming it's the TimberTech all around one quick question is there any adhesive for that or just the Locking System it's just a Locking System okay packet yeah interesting for for per for academic purposes What's the total amount of linear feet cuz you you are all railings there excuse me what's the total linear feet that you will be oh God I know there's a about 10 eight pieces so of of six or eight uh a mix of six and eight so it's uh and there's some fours in there like I'll be cutting some down we do have posts that are this close together that so seven seven or 800 running feet probably ra I mean railing is so prominent on this building it's it's the rails it is I have my work cut out for me for the winter so just a a question for clarification purposes yes sir you had shown us this photo yes and is this the outcome that's going to be on the hotel yes like railing and spindle and all this is what it that's exactly what it is right there okay what's that problem that should be the radiance Rail Express Radiance rail right yeah the Express Tech radi Express right okay I would like to move then that we approve this application as final for the railings to be replaced by TimberTech Radiance Express to match the existing with the exception that they be square 54in spindles at 4 inch centers and that's the end of my motion however just like the last submission I would like to request from you that there's one condition and the condition is that you give us another application no no additional fee and get rid of all this redundant stuff all we need to see is the product you want to use so that again we can hand this to our field advisor who can go out in the field and say ah this is it there's no guess something on that yeah because there there's like 40 pages here we don't need yes so we made hundreds and hundreds of copies better than last time was no no last time we had the stress tests as well yeah I would I would simply include this I mean this is your cut sheet saying that it's the TimberTech Radiance um um Express Express yep ex now by the cut sheet you just that if you want okay from their catalog there will be a page that says Timber Tech radi Express no because it still says um you need to ASAC and aluminum so literally no more choices right if you just give us the simplest possible so that willott that and all you need to do is go on the online to timbertex website yeah and download the PDF cut sheet of the radiance um Express staple it to this and say this is what we're using everywhere okay yep and include of course um the fence for around the pool because that's there's two components to this right and and nowhere do we want to see the word aluminum okay so I'll repeat the motion I move that this submission be approved for final for the yeah replacement of the railing to be TimberTech Radiance Express using Square spindles 5/4 in 4 in centers okay yeah they only I'll have to look up that with the uh um just for the radiance Rail Express uh because every time I've punch it in their whole brochure comes up I I had the same problem when I was looking it up as well yeah so I have a second for this motion second motion has been seconded any further discussion Mr Carol yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Stevenson Mr hammeron yes Mr Testa yes Mr Becker yes thank you great so do we come back again with these packets or just submit off drop them off for Judy I just need one one just one one final packet oh you are wonderful just one may five pages Max yeah I mine is this thick please don't keep telling Judy she's wonderful oh thank you thank you good night I know happy New Year miss us yeah we have PL build and you got that we're so bad we don't miss anybody looks like oh do you want your U sample oh there we go yeah just so I can make sure they s you the right thing right okay folks so that that concludes our good evening thank you take care thank you take care that concludes the old business port of tonight's meeting moving on to new business 30205 Washington LLC so this is for 302 to 304 Washington Street on um on the mall so applicant please come forth and state your name and what your role in the project is please hello my name is Robert shansky S H P NSK Ki uh I'm the property manager for 30235 Washington LLC application was submitted on behalf of the owner from monzo katne in the Lawless and I believe I was cleared to represent without represent legal representation excuse me sir can you use the microphone a little closer please yep there you go right up here let me ask one clarifying question before we get started it says that this is new business but I'm seeing a application that appears to have been denied is there yes there good question Steve this was submitted to the Review Committee and uh its initial submission in its initial form was denied so what you're seeing before you is what was submitted in response to that denial okay denied in review denied in review yes so I'm here uh with a full application for the commission um essentially 302 Washington Street is a commercial building at the uh Western end of the Washington Street Mall uh constructed in the late 1800s it is a a contributing building um the owner acquired the building back in 2017 and completed renovation work that was started by the previous owners uh which included remodeling the second floor interiors and first floor retail stores as well as installing Windows and siding on the building building um today's application is to complete siding on the northeast elevation which currently has Dutch laap wood siding we'd be replacing that with wood 6-in clabber similar with the other three sides there's photos that represent that second request in the application is for the entry door to unit D which is the cheese store and I be happy to answer any questions but I spent about an hour or two in the new library here in town researching the books I couldn't find any historical photos of this entry door on this building there's lots of shots looking North up Washington Street which do show the facade of the building but because it's behind a bay window you can't actually see it so um to my knowledge uh I I don't believe the door or the transom above is likely original it doesn't actually fit with the facade of the building the transom above the entry door has a different thickness of styles even though it is multifaceted light uh panel above the door um it's just unique so our application seeks to remove this door and light and install a frenchwood door and plain transom that that matches the other four entr doors on the building all shown in your package uh the facade as as you can see the front facade isn't 100% symmetrical you know the windows Aren't Dead Center Under The Gables the bay windows are slightly off-centered from The Gables um the right side of the facade has a frenchwood door and clear transom above it um with some visible siding and trim around it whereas the left side of the front facade has this oversized entry door and large transom that doesn't allow for any siding or trim it also extends all the way to the roof overhang um and these these spaces would be you know refilled after the 36in door and transom is installed it would allow for trim and painting on the facade of the building Mr shansky a couple of clarification questions yes sir the scope of this submission is strictly limited to the replacement of that one section of siding correct and the replacement of one door correct so my question is this this set of drawings that are dated August 15th of 2016 that were submitted yes this is purely informational yes was this project ever implemented yes so these Anderson 400 windows were installed in this building no they were not no uh I don't know if those plans were completed um we installed wood double hung windows from Kate May Lumber I believe they're gen W brand uh there was HPC application and approval in 2017 I don't have a copy of that with me but uh some of those details weren't fully vetted on that renovation plan so this is purely informational you're requesting one door replacement and the replacement of the siding correct okay so comments Tom uh Robert the uh other three doors do they have a piece of bevel glass in the in the window there uh this there three it looks like all the way around there's a nice bevel in the glass um I don't believe so I I would need to confirm that these I know that these doors are older it's a single pane of uh tempered glass so I think that that what you're seeing in the photos is condensation that's building up on them okay um I was just going to say if they are bevel I'd like to see that and the new one too but if they're not sure we want to do them the same okay yeah I'm sorry I just want to clarify the front page of your application States three doors so you're only proposing to replace one door one door correct one door three match one doesn't okay okay so we're going to cross out the three then on the final application the front page yeah yeah correct it's says three but you mean one yeah yeah it's retail Unit D might The Cheese Store The Cheese Store correct yes um other comments Kevin do we want to go around the room have comment um the only thing I could say from the Review Committee is um you know we were looking at that one side um which had Dutch um lap I think one it was on it and it is really not visible um it's about a two- foot alley it's even got you know obstruction in it so you know it seems logical to try to match it to the other three revealed sides of the building rather than try to you know go back and say okay we need you know we want that to be same for same that's the only thing I can really add to the discussion I don't any questions okay no comment no it looks fine the Dutch laap sighting has had it from the from the look of of the condition you can see right through it it's just I me I know you showed the most atrocious view of it but it is also bizarre that we have a building that has had three quarters in in in uh in overlap clav and one quarter in dutchlap it the Dutch was probably the original and just never replaced because it was in an alley it must have been just too hard to work on yeah but um I understand and agree with rationalization to to to make all four sides the same just just for reference the the report States clabbered siding and it doesn't specify how many sides or the difference in the two sides so yeah and certainly applaud your program to make them all the same that'll that'll certainly add even though it's a in an alley right right and uh I don't think anybody can can argue with the rationale of making all the doors the same either Tom no no no I'm I'm I'm all for the application Steve yeah I think in general I I definitely um understand what the applicant's doing I think I I um uh would agree with it for me the only thing that I'd love to just have maybe some context from the group on is the one standard with adding or revising a window as part of our plans um it says altering the size of an existing window is not appropriate invisible locations without evidence I I I don't know how to I don't know how to react to that I don't see evidence to change it I don't see evidence that it was that or it should be this but as I read the standard I mean the standard would leave would lead me to believe that um I don't see evidence as to why we would change that window because we are altering a an existing an existing window and just by the by the lines of our own guidance it says it's not appropriate now that said I think it makes sense from a symmetry perspective I think it makes sense from a from a streetcape perspective so maybe that kind of Trumps that that language and I would probably support that but figured I it's also it's a door assembly it's really not just a window right I mean it's a trans which I I see it as a as a whole structure door plus transom on top and I I'm sorry even though I like the single one better than the smaller ones I I think the rationale is is not going to damage the structure's status by by by having it all four look the same comment Yogi yeah no I I kind of like it nice project so I only have um a couple questions yes sir so you're not talking about touching or renovating or revising the the transom over the door is that correct the transom over the door would be removed and it would be uh replaced with a door and transom assembly that would be similar to the other three entry doors in the packet so this one rationale for this is that it wasn't original there's no evidence that it's original that I have found so that's the real question that's why Steve was confused because if if we had evidence that this was the original then we wouldn't approve it um is that enough of a reason to table this Tom what what's your thought about that well that window uh it's a handsome transom but it doesn't go with any other thing in the building uh I I agree it might be the one original thing left but it's kind of looking out of place when everything else was changed around it so wouldn't consider putting three that look like that one back would you if it was size correctly it would be doable you know but like I said the Styles in the door are differen size rails there's no room for trim Etc um you know I would I would entertain that you know if you wanted to see that multifaceted panel above every entry door there's a second entry door on the facade and there are two entry door on the East Elevation on Carpenters when we purchased the building those were air conditioners mind you and we removed those installed air conditioning and replace the transoms oh the other two transoms are are of a different proportion so I don't think that right they're they're sized to the door umh and is this purely a design decision or is there well essentially what's driving it is I need a new entry door here it's been destroyed you know there's no Jam left there's a lot of of things um The Operators requested that we replace the door even though I've tried to repair it and because of its size and shape you know i' I'd rather install a 36 in door this one's about 40 in wide it's oversized in height and it you know the the transom again is different than the other three doors are are thir or threes or 36 in yes with a with a 16in transom above this yes did but I didn't find anything about the windows well the reason it's not the right size is because it's original yeah see so I'm I'm very uncomfortable with removing that transom um because it appears to me that it is original and in fact maybe the reason why the not the ones over the other doors aren't because I don't think they're likely were ransoms there because this is pretty clearly the main entrance and so I'm thinking that the other windows that are above the storefront windows may have had some decorative component to them or this was the only one because it was the primary entrance so Janice I agree with you I I would love to see if we could figure out a way real quick discover whether this was original or not because it would be a shame to lose it just asking say it again K yeah I just think that that this is far more attractive yeah I mean it's a beautiful it's beautiful right and it adds a whole layer of character and ab right so question for you Mr shansky if we were to ask you to come back to us with a little bit more research about this um do you would you be willing to go through that effort to see if you can find out whether or not this is original or not I I could you know like I stated I spent an hour at our new library here I flipped through all the magazines looking for historical photos couldn't find a facade picture um I and for the reason being that there's no room for siding there's no room for trim and that the doors styles are different from the window Styles I would assume that this without evidence would be a handyman install you know that's my assumption um because it doesn't match any of the other ones in the building which I never touched and you can see all the other doors in historical photos that show a clear transom that's about 16 in above the door a single clear transom above all those photos I could bring is evidence that this one isn't original but there's no photos I've found or a description in the report of you know of it being original but it is it is strange to think that this is as a it's a bigger door might be a main entrance but this is this is almost like a duplex uh it's licensed for four and yet that door is smaller than this that transm is different that wasn't that always that way um it was R it's a two something two when we acquired it and it had four meters it was yeah yeah okay I just cuz I knew it wasn't it didn't look like that all so it's possible that when this was renovated to be this particular function somebody thought that was historic and installed it and it was was part of the original building that's what I think we're trying to figure out well I mean lots of people would install these on their own accord because they like them and yeah you know because it doesn't fit necessarily with the facade meaning it goes all the way to the roof line it doesn't allow for trimmer either side it's not centered in the opening leads me to believe that it was a handyman install at any point in time between now and 1870 or whenever it was let me ask you this is that is that a crown mold that's running around the the um the ceiling it has a beaded wood ceiling I think it's just a bed molding the same the fa only the facade has that roof overhang but yeah okay I'm sorry j can you say it again he saying this is not the no it is not it's clearly larger and it has smaller rails stot door uhuh as opposed to but it's a 40in door so the transm itself is 40 Ines as well well we don't have the survey for this build well the survey doesn't survey is interesting because the survey talks about where is it is it in here it doesn't specifically it just says yeah it is it says that um historic restaurant windows on Perry Street historic window frames and wood windows but it doesn't specifically talk about this decorative window what's the date of the building okay 18 it was um developed as the center House Hotel in 1850 U that that sash work in the window that we seem to like a lot uh dates really to The Bungalow years if you look at a lot of the bungalow houses in town uh that that diamond at the top and then strap or fairly plain panes below it uh was you know like 1890s to 1920 or so so I would be willing to bet that that wind would certainly not go back to 1850 yeah it looks like it was redeveloped between 1890 and 1909 which would match the time frame you're talking about I I I I I don't see anything any reason that compels us to presume that that window that that transm is original we're striving to find out whether or not it is but it sounds like it's as likely not to be as it is to be maybe question who has a burden of doing what but I I don't see anything that tells me that that is a necessarily an original window which we original transom which we would preserve so let's let's let that sit for a minute while I ask my only other question and that is um what were you proposing the hardware on this new door uh the other two were brass and this this door currently looks like it has it would have brass a pool plate uh similar to the other entry doors um if you flip through the photos yep they all have a you know a brass pool plate with a a mortise lock above so you would match that yes okay great just one other question it would be a painted wood door black like the other ones with white shrim one one question for Tom maybe if that if that were not original to the 1850 construction but was put in somewhere in between 1890 and 1910 Would we not try to preserve that still because it's now still within the you know the period of of interest for us we do preserve buildings that have lots of different periods of History associated with them right uh you know some of the ones that uh got turned into like a colonial revival uh like right across from the main stay in was actually a Victorian Cottage it looked like everything else on the street and and yet you know we've tried to preserve it as it was changed to that so yeah you could kind of look at that either way it is interesting that there's only one that was was done that way and uh I I would be hard to hard to figure out EXA exactly when that might have happened if you were really lucky you'd take that thing add it on the side of it would say ship to hand and wear in you know 1910 or something but you know that's that kind of find is rare yeah and by that time it would be too late yeah yeah so folks it seems like we have a couple of choices here um we can either entertain a motion to approve this and see what happens or we can entertain a motion to invite Robert to table this pending further research and I I would like to see how you guys are thinking about this I don't think there going to need to rush so so if John when you say we'll see what happens what do you mean by that well if you change it to plane so it's going to look the same Mr shensky has um when I asked him if he would be willing to do a little bit further research he said yes which would then our move would be to table it pending his further research when he come back and present to us the results of that research so I think our two choices are either that or we move to approve it and see whether it passes or not so do I hear a motion for one or the other well I I see no harm in extra time right I mean this is not an immediate thing if if further research will indicate whether you can find evidence of this being original or some add-on or with a date to it I think we'd appreciate knowing that because that's that's better than just ripping it out right away so would you like to make a motion uh I think I just made it so we a motion to table the a is presented now subject to the waiver by the applicant of the 45-day running period U and to return to us uh with further research uh indicating um any further conclusions about the origins of that transom uh is it original was it an add-on can you establish dates another just before speak is would we approve the other part of it de sding does the applicant need to get moving on the siding oh good question and not the I I think we should approved the siding person so that's that that would be part of your motion yeah so so if you're going to go with a sign yeah but and and we we would we we would table what I just said but we would approve the portion of the application relating to using the clabber instead of the in place of the Dutch siding Dutch lab siding so Mr shansky the board's prepared to act on the siding portion of this to make all the siding the same um and on that side that needs repair in connection with that though they would seek to table the door and the transit discussion to get more information on that and you would be waving the time for decision for the board to act on that so that you could go out and get some hopefully some additional information we could come back here next month and and continue that discussion would you would you be amenable to that would the applicant be amendable to waving the time for decision for those two things will I get um a letter in writing regarding the siding to move forward in construction so what would happen is if they voted on that tonight there would be a resolution at the next meeting for the siding mhm okay just like every other applicant that gets approval uh I believe it's okay um you know you're not outlining how much research I need to do or the format of which I need to present it disc we can discuss that in the sense that that i' I'd like to see something proving one way or the other and if it's short of proof I'm willing to accept that this is a this is not an original Transit so is there is there anybody on the on the commission who would be interested in in helping um Mr shansky do this research and see if here here's what I know I can Pro I can provide historic photos of the other doors that don't have a faceted transom I know those exist I've seen three or four shots and this is the only door that I can't see in a photo that I looked for so B you talked to me this week about having photographs of of the shops along Washington Street before well it be interesting to look through those photos to see if they're there are you telling us that you have not played in this particular structure no I was ask on my third birthday in 1892 this one I can't the only thing I can remember about this one is it was white and dilated and that there was a lady by the name of Lila who had a shop in there and she was the sress but this one I'm drawing a blind I'm all for seeing if this is historic and keeping that trans I think it's gorgeous but yeah you know I'd be willing to go and look at it and Tom if you'd be willing to join me sure we could go look and see how it's constructed we might be able to detect from that some evidence of approximately when it was installed based upon what else is there so I'd be willing to do that maybe we could we we could at least do that to help you sure um and in the meantime we'll look for some photos and you can look for some photos and we could reconvene next month I will I'll get this information to you my research within three weeks that would give you a week to maybe look at it before the next hearing or we can just look at it at the next hearing together and try to make a decision then okay so sounds like now I'm motion I think I made the motion to to to table that portion subject to further research per with with the you know with the return uh and waving the statutory period and then we approve the uh the sign do we have a second for this motion I'll second so moved and seconded Judy Janice was that you yes thank you just need you to sign that Oh I thought it was my copy I was like he's quick Mr Carol yes Mr Miss agno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr hammeron yes Mr Tesa yes Mr Becker yes thank you thank you thank you we take a motion on the motion was part of the motion Pro proof sighting and and T table the other Robert if if if during this three-week period you'd like to come and and share with us whatever you found we meet here on Tuesday Mornings at 9:00 and need to call Judy and say you want to come in and meet with us and maybe we can expedite it okay I mean and I'd like to come to a conclusion when we come to this again that it is more likely than not that the window the transing is original because so we have to we have to weigh this some point yeah I mean we can't just go on speculation that it might be original I I I I'm unwilling to assess that yet without further research yeah I just mean the conclusion part ah got it yep still have to do the the research thank you thank you okay so that concludes our new business I appears as if there's nobody in the audience for public comment so I don't think we have any public comment um just a couple last things I've spoken with all of you I believe about a public meeting Workshop that would be aimed at helping us given that we're now in sort of a uh the next phase of the transition of HPC realigning around what it is why are we really here why are we really doing this what is the purpose of this and using a few Frameworks of exercises to help us all have a voice in alignment around what our true purpose is and what it is each of our roles are because each of us brings something different and complimentary to this organization and really to be able to collectively understand what each of us cares about and what are we really bringing to this so that we can all be working together as closely as a team as possible so I believe I've heard all of you say that you'd be willing to do that is that accurate so time frame um the only constraints that I've heard thus far is B you can't come before like 3 o'l in the afternoon on a on a on a if it's only one time thing I can come anytime except Fe February 18th I will be out of town that day so let me just canvas you folks if I'm thinking this is probably a 4-Hour event and I think we take a break and have some refreshments right wait for the public to show up wait for the public to show up because the public we want to invite them be as transparent as possible so generally speaking would this be a daytime thing an evening thing or a weekend thing let's just look at those three are there any preferences daytime daytime time I think day time clear no weekend weekend off the table so daytime not evening so maybe in afternoon yes yeah okay great I Judy maybe you and I can discuss this tomorrow and see if we can identify some potential dates because we'll need to um we want to do it in this room if we can yes look at availability yes what did you say are you able to attend in the day she said yes what I'm sorry I did yeah he said she could attend during the day a one time thing I sure it's a one time thing anytime anytime that's great except for except for February 18th except for except for February 18 not February 18th all right I think daytime is a good time I mean in night time so people don't want to go out and all of that I think plus plus we're tired and cranky yeah so are we looking at February John like next month or do you want to when how soon do you want to schedule this they are how soon would you like to schedule it yes good question um I would like to do it as soon as possible I'm thinking no later than February I know I'm going away on um in in two weeks and I it's unlikely we'll get it scheduled before then so I'm thinking it's probably mid-February anyone else going away in February I am and you'll be gone how long are you uh three weeks till so February 15th so after last week of January and first so toward the end of February yeah so will everybody be here the last two weeks of February so have I'm not sure about the last week but the third week yeah we'll talk the Third week of February thank you okay okay okay one more um thing I'd like to bring up you may recall that in September we created and submitted to uh for consideration by the Planning Commission a potential revision to the ordinance zoning ordinance regarding parking under habitable structures M may recall that that that that was something that we had agreed upon um after due deliberation and further consideration hearing comments from the Planning Commission I would like to suggest that we consider indefinitely tabling that because I believe we've got some other priorities that we need to pursue namely um getting our bylaws revised number two um really getting finally resolve the historic district map get that done and in some ways I believe that if we can focus on that effort rather than get distracted by this parking effort we might be more successful more expeditiously so any any discussion or comments about that folks would can we agree that we were just we would table that indefinitely for now John you you know that that this effort um went on for months after month and and for postponement after post moment from the last Administration to this it's it's an important subject and it's and it's apparently it's a it's not not apparently it is a touchy subject as well as being important I think we all saw the merits of what Kate May would look like in the future if we maintain this regulation and what we would do in the historic district and and there seems to be an awful lot of concern about applying it in the rest of town U and and so it's perhaps better to get our elves in order Al although um you know I personally still believe what we did has has a lot of Merit I believe what we sent off to the planning board was pretty thorough um and and would have had a um um you know a telling effect but to increase our chances of getting this done because it ultimately has to go from the planning board to the city council for amendment I I'd like to do anything necessary to increase those Chan and if if we feel that it takes a little more time and we get some other business done and maybe we'll get some new arguments and maybe we'll think more um that's fine with me to to to put it off to a future time I'd like to not get rid of it indefinitely yeah that's what i' I'd like to I'd like to say that I think parking and the intrusion of the car in our streetscape is a major issue however what happened with that amendment was that it was put on an an agenda the people on the board didn't know where it came I watched now you're talking about planning board reaction yeah and it was it was kind of a nightmare and um the letter that Chris wrote that sort of spelled out why it's important to the HBC that was clear as a bell I mean we had a we had we had a fairly thorough memor that's the problem with communicating with people with written amendments and and request is that people don't read They're they're coming to meetings at night just like we are and they're like get to the point you know persuade me and I think the alignment meeting that John's proposing is where we can talk about things like this thank you Janice that's actually one of the primary reasons for delaying this let's get all aligned try we need to be clear and persuasive if we're going to ask for changes that are going to be really inconvenient for a lot of people well and and there also there's another Factor though and and and and I I agree one of the other factors is that when we propose an amendment based on our role um and our regulatory role as the HPC and it goes to the planning board for a review and a referral to city council I believe the planning board has a limited role in what it's supposed to do now you may make a decision on that planning board to be whatever it is you want to be but but that role also wasn't all that clearly defined well it's interesting because the the city engineer did look at it and provide a response regarding the degree to which it was aligning with or compliant with the master plan and it was a little bit ambiguous um I think the terminology that was used and I I can't quote this exactly but it was it was kind of a British double NE negative well it's not uncompliant right which leaves it kind of vague right so yeah um I think we need to do some more homework really and it I'm making an assumption here folks that to me one of the most important things we need to get done is to get the historic district map finally resolved and approved and if we can focus our efforts on that initially then we can start looking at these other things again this is not something this is a longterm view of what parking means and how it's done in structures it's not something that's going to happen in three months six months even a year you're right and and and there there will be an effort in front of the city council we have to decide where this is going besid just the planning board for my own commentary I I think that um uh at least in the in what I'll call the historic district district proper it made total sense not to allow parking under the structure I I just think that made sense you know you don't want to have people raising the structure in order to fit cars underneath it um I think that would have really been ruinous for our purposes of trying to preserve the historic district but I have to be honest you know I also know that parking is a premium and this and it's a it's a hugely charged issue for Council and for everyone else um and so to carry that outside the the historic district and into kind of the newer construction you know on the on that side of town I I don't you know there what we're seeing now as a as a group is requests to tear down some of these old cottages and things like that put up a new structure you almost can't put a new one unless you you put a garage in there that faces the street with something over the top of it and that becomes very hard otherwise you're just pushing all those cars out onto the street so trying to weigh the the benefits of you know are we really regulating new construction around parking or are we you know is that really our purpose I think you know adds confusion to that and I think it's it's worthy of you know and it's a good point discussion because what's already in our standards I think already addressed addresses this for the historic district yeah yeah I do I do I agree and and I think I don't I don't think the debate's really ever been within the historic district it's been how far do you extend that concept outside the district and and are you harming the district by having those areas closest to the district radically change exactly anyway um for food for thought and for more discussion John I'd like to think about that meeting that you're contemplating in a couple weeks as an opportunity for us to Define um you know some success metrics or some things that are super important to this group what was what were those two words again success metric success metrics because because I'm hearing I think about it as as highest and best use and and right now that this particular project probably falls down a little bit on our highest and best use we only have so much time to commit to parking outside the district parking outside the district and and taking time to really like Define within what we can control what's important to us within the historic district and the historic district map is probably higher can can I turn you back to that Historic District map um can you hold that for just one sure sure so I want to respond to Steve yeah um it led me to my last question for this evening and that is so in order for us to have this Workshop I think be successful um I I look at it as it as a task and the task has in mind components to it what's the purpose what are the products or outcomes we're seeking what's the process we're going to use or the activities and exercises we're going to engage at this workshop and how do we prepare for it right so I think of them as the four Ps it's a task cycle framework so in order to do that I would like to solicit the help of two other people on this board given that legally only three of us can convene that's correct and discuss business right outside of this room yeah outside of this room room to I would say cocreate this workshop with me so that there are three of us coming into this who are already owning it co-creators of it and already have a sort of a um a head start on the Frameworks we'll be using to engage and open up and and align so is there anybody who would be interested in doing that with me if not I'll I'd like to John yeah Jake yeah Janice I I am going to be away for a little bit um but I would like to help it'll it'll take three hour and a half phone calls to prepare for this that's what I would like to suggest so J can yes great everybody good with that John can I ask one more question will you be developing like an agenda to distribute prior to the meeting yes okay so you will I'll write that in the minutes that yes because I think we have to um what is it 10day notice 48 yeah it has to be advertised 48 48 hours for for a special meeting and and Judy can coordinate the notice need an agenda in advance of that meeting but if you want the small committee less than a quorum that can be more ad hoc you know free flowing good okay great yes we will definitely have a very clear agenda prepared for that meeting okay now back to where just trying to refresh my recollection as to where we are in terms of the finalization of that that District map and where the differences okay um so I need to do a little more research on this but where it landed was at some point Warren was going to make a presentation to city council to um clarify some discrepancies between what were four different maps that were on the table and um I need to go back and and research that I don't know Chris do you have any memory of this I do oh Judy please the administration requested that it be deferred until this year after the election so it was one of one of the other things is just just so we have the lay of the land procedurally for that type of change that does that has to go to the planning board and then to council and that's that's part of the city code is that process is laid out if we're going to amend the district actually you know this board will vote on it and then actually the planning board will conduct a hearing and that's what happened last time is that got sent up I think there was maybe some difference of agreement about what what map was being approved or this or that but regardless of that issue the planning board came back with a recommendation as I my recollection is they came back with a recommendation that the people that would be included in the new District Al be it maybe non-contributing would receive notice now under the city code that's not required either but what my personal thought on that is okay legally not required but you may view that as an opportunity to for persuasion um because that information is going to find its way into the public sphere and the HPC could take some ownership over that message early on rather than somebody reading in the paper and what does this mean for me and Chris I I mean I I remember that we went through a number of potential Alternatives um one of which and included suggestions for example of grandfathering people who are going to be brought into the district as a result of the changes and and we moved beyond that to talk about what about the fairness of notice in any process that would finally analyze the determination of the district and um that's where that's where my mind kind of departs where we left it U that and and I thought that we had come to the conclusion that we were going to have a meeting to adopt it but we didn't wind up giving the notice so what if we what if we were to have um I would be more than happy to have a discussion with um planning and Paul in the city to talk about maybe having a public meeting to present what it is were proposing so that all the folks who would be affected are invited to come and attend that meeting an ask question I I think that and having the HPC be on the front lines of that discussion because what does it mean to be in the district what does it mean to be a non-contributing versus a contributing the people on this board are the best qualified to answer those questions in a clear Manner and avoid confusion and avoid misinterpreting that um and there it it's bound to to be confronted with some people that are like I don't want to be part of it but I think the the Public Presentation part of that even if it's not a legal requirement is going to give it its best chance for Success ultimately as it navigate has to navigate through those those various boards yeah I have a question have we or everyone I'll ask have we ever had anything such as an interc commmission Council in other words something like John from here build from planning whoever from zoning who meet you know when we were on College they had the inner fraternity Council and they represented all of the the fraternities and sororities that that that could be an entity and maybe meet every month or two and try to hammer out and explain some of the differences would something like that ever were I I think it that has a lot of potential um I mean the chairs of the boards the respective boards meeting about you know the way those boards May interact it would it would open channels of communication things cigars say you know it doesn't have to be it could be somebody from each commission or you know um board that would be together to just work these things out just for more open you know communication I don't sure so you're thinking that would be have we ever tried it composed of city planning zoning HPC and city council so representatives from each of those four entities right that would be great don't you think I love it yeah I do I mean and then that way you would have that and you could work out a lot of the things that way and everybody would understand and have an idea of what everyone really represents I'm not sure that that's clear even now well the the problem with something like this amending the map is it's a little alien to everybody tring trying to do it even this Bo it's like when's the last time was it done okay how do we do it and then oh it has to go through the planning board and then the planning board members are thinking what are we doing with this right and and not that's nothing against them it's just not something that's popping up every month they're reviewing you know site plan applications and things like that so when something like this comes up it's like okay we we'll give you our full two cents on that and it's like you know there so would would would you would you folks be okay if if I made some phone calls and started talking to to each of those three entities about maybe maybe it's a one once a month um legal or or or it could be just something that that or we're addressing specific problems that come up because it isn't that we're going to regularly review and the planning where is going to be regularly interested in everything we do and vice versa oh I think it has way more potential than it just being a one-off I'd like to point out that I didn't say one off I said at hot there is a there is a section in the comprehensive plan about historic preservation so part of the planning board's responsibilities are the comprehensive plan and there is a definitely a component in the comprehensive plan for historic preservation so that is part of their task so Paul didn't Paul convene something like this about a month ago it was uh the quality of life and I believe that there were representatives of all four of those entities at that meeting correct so what would you suggest would this be a discussion that I could talk to the city manager about absolutely we can we can uh speak to Paul and Justin and and see if we can set something up I don't we there doesn't need to be any official act other than okay you know we're interested in meeting thank you all right you need any um going back a little bit too um my recollection was there was a technical issue as it pertained to the to the historic district and that was um Warren I remember wanted to scale back the district a little bit and then and the idea was there were several properties that are historic that would fall out of it and those could be deemed historic on their own while not being technically part of the district and the concern was spot zoning I think and some stuff like that that's that's how I recall that conversation going that that wouldn't necessarily be spot zoning we can have historic sites that may be siloed off from the dist and that's and that's how it happens outside the district a historic site way of eliminating as many but I I you know possible from the his I thought I really thought that we had agreed on the actual location so so we we had maps that were in agreement as to what we were going to do but we were not in agreement as to the adoption procedure including the hearings including the process by which it would be finalized correct the properties were not in dispute right no the map is the map is the map is complete has been approved it was Jim is correct it was just the process yeah I think one of the biggest things was that they were going to properties beyond the seaw wall that weren't included in it they wanted to include all those buildings along the prominade in the historic district yeah there were two components there were I forget the number it was maybe 122 something like that um I call them the missing teeth properties right and the promot yeah and Judy you're saying that's already been approved I I thought we voted on it yeah I think we did we the yellow map I think it would be probably beneficial for John and I to get together put together a small packet of what's been done because we've documented a lot of it you guys approved the map Paul developed an electronic version of the map we have a a list of all the properties that were will be added the property reports are complete so it's just the process that needs to be completed with the Planning Commission and the administration and Council and deciding about the letter composing the letter so those are things that were scheduled for this year so this is timely so if there is a a process that includes notices invitations um to properties that are affected and there is there are there two hearings and meetings is there one planning board hearing along with us is can it be combined because we were talking about having our own meeting with input and from the public and we were talking about the fact planning board has to conduct a hearing no I don't think that's what we were talking about well I think the solicitor was any wordss got to have a hearing yes but I think that there was more it wasn't that linear um I think what's being explored here what are our options for moving forward with this and several ideas have emerged um seems to me that the one we're kind of aligning around is to explore with these four entities a way to create some sort of um we'll call it inter agency Council and one of the ways to initiate that and convene it is that the subject matter primarily initially at least would be lining around the historic district matter if that's way you want to go in with we know that's where we got where we want to go I think that's where we want to go before we have a public hearing because we want all these folks to align as much as possible right I I I think that's a good idea what I would just to clarify what I was saying about the notice is I I don't think the the notice part of it's not a requirement under the code for the planning board hearing it was a recommendation from them and I think as a practical matter as this would move up the procedural ladder the people being asked to make a decision on it would want to know and be asked who was given notice and how and I think we have the I think we have the ability to take that on initially we can have this um you know sort of ad hoc review of IT among um professionals and the board professionals board members you know if you want to have like a cross functional meeting but the notice part that the planning board pointed to and I I think that they would agree but I'm not going to speak for them I think we would want that to be at this table we want this group of people to be responding to inquiries from the public about that not them show up to a planning board hearing and ask them questions about the HBC I think we would want to be here explaining what it means to be in the district and what it doesn't mean because we're everyone here will be best qualified to answer those types of questions that that would minimize the problems at a subsequent planning board right and by the time it gets there the pl you the planning board well last time it went you you we recommended that you give public notice did you get yeah we had public we had a we had a hear this well literally what was being requested as call was a letter being written to each of the individual Property Owners that's what you're referring to as noce correct right right so this this is predate this this would happen before all of that as part of a whole kind of community alignment effort that the letter is the last piece of yeah right yeah but it's at the beginning of the process I I don't care whether it's the beginning or the end as long as it gets done I think part of the two was that the wasn't it that the the map went to the planning committee without Warren realizing it was going there it just it just jumped the G it was there was nothing right about it absolutely nothing right about it was just not handled properly and so it it turned out to be a bigger political issue than it needed to be all the more reason to engage would be proposed which is this inter agency alignment because then we can all say hey what's the best way to do this exactly yeah and you're working all in the the same direction instead of at odds with which is our problem Bingo or you're exposing the conflict before it happens before the Bob goes off exactly hey John one other minor consideration and that's uh funding I know Warren asked me to join him a meeting several months ago at convention hall with the taxpayers association okay and they were asking questions regarding the realignment of the uh of the boundaries concerning the additional historic surveys that needed to be conducted and of course thereof they're completed okay but I mean but that was their consideration and uh so it may be something that may come up so that's another issue that Judy and I have just started to talk about is working on the budget for next year and the degree to which we do need to engage any more surveys we'll talk I have I have an Excel spreadsheet of um pretty extensive um list that of surveys that need to be completed and in fact I added a lot of them today because there's South Beach Avenue that we don't have anything for at all so we were working with Bruce today because someone came in and we have no property report we don't we don't have anything for it and there's many of them so I have a list of well over a 100 properties that need to be resurveyed many of them are 1993 survey which is really old and and outdated uh there's demolitions such as the one you reviewed tonight that will need a new survey so I keep adding to this list and I think we the way the property reports have been done in the past is the state historic preservation office will fund a grant the city will hire consultant architectural consultant um who has to be qualified by the state they go out they do a wind what's called a windshield survey a driving survey they take a picture of the front of the property often they walk around if there's a garage in the back they then do the description that you the HPC uses um in your reviews and produce the property reports we then get a PDF of that when it's completed and it goes into our files so we have a pretty extensive it's a very large historic district in Kate May City as everyone knows um so we have a pretty large collection of them I use them every day they're very important to what we do so we haven't done them for a while we're due to do this one uh Warren has brought up many times that Village Green also needs to be done the National Trust asked for that to be done I I don't know how immediate that is for our needs um but I would I would like to budget immediate enough last fall summer and fall for Warren to have had discussions with the city manager about the Village Green situation um and for there to have been some consideration and drafts of being being able to do those surveys kind of in Mass block by block block by block block block by Block it's what happens at this hour block by block rather than dwelling by dwelling and I have no idea where that went other than I remember there being they being discussion about getting that into the budget for the current fiscal year yeah and I what we're going to have to research where that money is going to come from right because the states this this year's budget has already been decid on that I I recall everything that you just said except I don't know the outcome either yeah I know that they were discussing it that might mean was I think I can fish up the language I just don't know where it went the budget hasn't been approved yet obviously so there's still time kind of deal with that okay so to wrap this up they're still going to work on the budget for 2025 so okay good news John we were going to have this alignment Workshop like the third week of February if we can get a date and a place picked that we agreed that we would for now indefinitely table the parking Amendment proposal we agreed to initiate some discussions um with city manager Chris maybe you could be part of this with me um about an inter agency Council to begin to address and resolve finally the conflicts or uh the resolution of the district historic district and um the process for doing that I think that's what we just aligned around is that accurate guys pretty cool all right any other any other discussion or topics Tom one other topic uh I sent out a notice uh asking you all if January 18th for Saturday night was open for everybody and everybody gave me a yes uh if you're not able to come please let me know uh we have invited the spouses uh the mayor and his wife are going to come and I'm sure he's going to want to uh lead off the the uh festivities the well you lead it off and you know thank Warren so much but and I'm sure there'd be plenty of time if anybody else wants to say something about you know Warren uh I didn't I didn't want to turn into any kind of roasting thing or anything but uh you know if you have any funny memories that you'd like to just bring out uh so please come right about five o'clock it won't be a 4-Hour meeting we'll keep it a little shorter than that and uh and I hope you all can come and we have still have wine left over from the last party which I can bring okay it's in your it's in your store it's in my store um one rule no red wine no red red wine and white furniture no red wine no the red wine has to stay outside we don't even have our front yard do you want us to bring things yeah Sue says she just wants to go ahead and do it all herself and uh we've asked and there's been no positive response about bring anything so I know what she's do uhhuh um if you are able to leave big heavy coats in your car that would help a lot cuz our Hall CLA it is like that if if it is snowing you need you need to do the shoveling yeah yeah okay yeah yeah all right so um motion to adjourn so moved this meeting is adjourned hours got got pleasy know y00 this is what we call a medium meeting our spe commission hour and a half we're walking you haven't seen the three four hour oh i' I've been there for four hours let's give Judy so I don't know I guess everyone on this committee knows I studi preservation pretty seriously like in school of courses have a certificate first thing that you need to pay attention to are the secretary and theor stands so you had an applicant here tonight who wants to remove a transon from a building that's a historic accretion over time the only reason he wants to take it out is it's convenient for him which we don't consider that so if you and and we've learned a lot about this so number four of the secretary interior standard say changes to a property that have acquired historic significance in own right will be retained and preserved so my feeling about that transom and I think at least Janice agrees and the is that has that has its own historic significance now it was added a long time ago not yesterday those doors and transoms were added later they later additions everyone recognizes that transom on that building it's the only unique feature left I don't care if a handyman put it in in 19 it's an old building that's old you know piece of of history of Kate M probably came from somewhere else in town it's beautiful it's the front door and I highly suggest that you tell them he has to retain it and figure out how to put a door in so do you you want to make you want to make public comment now yeah would you would you retain it make all the other ones look like no no because yeah I understand the standards also say you don't add however if someone added something within 50 years of that building being built and people recognize it as don't you have a question about that let's say it was added outside the per of say was added in 1950 I suspect that's going to be the case but the secretary tells you yeah I'm to put it and the trade is [Music] environmentally e e