e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e yes P by the minute we're live we can go whenever you me way back I really first you up I know it's on my schedule what happened to our F we can't can't go without a lawyer right where'd he go he's talking hello John beat me with that ham beat myself is there a lawyer in the house we'll take city of Kate May historic preservation commission July 15 2024 it is uh two minutes past 6:00 in compliance with the open public meeting Act of 1975 adequate not noce of this meeting has been provided if any member has reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of that act they should speak up at this time Pledge of Allegiance please pledge of Al United States am stands na indivisible andice all roll call please Mr copelan here Mr Carol here Mr Becker here Mr Stevenson here Mr Testa here miss pagno here Miss Wilson stck here Mr Johnson here Mr hammerin here thank you um minutes June 17 2024 you've had a chance to review those do I have a motion to accept those minutes they moved second motion by Miss Wilson strick seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes thank you Mr Stevenson abstain thank you Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you resolutions uh granados and rur R 502 West Perry Street block 1032 Lot 2 seat - 502 resolution 2020 420 mochas Family Trust 12 North Street block 1021 lot three resolution 20 2421 Hudson 1017 New York Avenue block 1103 blots 50 and 51 resolution 20 2422 Ocean Front Properties LLC 1045 Beach Avenue block 1101 Lots 7 through n resolution 202 2423 and finally 230 Grant Street Kate May LLC 230 Grant Street block 1019 lot 14 resolution 20242 24 uh do I have a motion to accept those resolutions so move second it's it's a tie motion by Mr Carol seconded by Miss Wilson stck is that correct no b b oh thank you B Sorry seconded by Miss bagno Mr copelan yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson stain Mr Testa yes Miss bagu yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you applications approved or denied in review you've had a chance to uh review those do I have a motion to accept them I so move do I have a second second motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Stevenson Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker Yes except for abstaining for Ayanna con at 10:45 Washington Street due to proximity thank you Mr Stevenson Yes except for 237 capart Lane abstain thank you Mr Testa uh yeses to all except cila TGA and Von seeum I abstain on those okay thank you Miss bisagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you um old business um first order of business tonight Ocean Front Properties LLC 1045 Beach Avenue block 1101 lot S 8 and nine it's a non-contributing outdoor seating area includ fire pits flag pole Synthetic Turf and a retaining wall good evening Mr chairman John amh Houser the DWI law firm here this uh evening on behalf of the applicant Ocean Front Properties LLC before I get started Mr I do have um some additional exhibits to provide I do have enough for each of the board members there's some additional photographs uh of the subject property particularly the area in question along the front Chris you minded by show to you I have enough for each of each of the members but it's a uh combined 17 pages okay um with with a number of um site plan documentation sorry sir could the other applicants introduce themselves please uh yes Bob bansen on behalf of ocean front properties Bob bansen yes belel a nen thank you and then chair if you can introduce yourself uh yes Gerald Blackman registered architect and professional planner in the state of New Jersey with the Architecture Firm of os design Partners 475 White Horse Pike Collingswood New Jersey and is this other gentleman group he's also he's an employee of os but not testifying Chris are you okay with me providing these yeah John that's fine I'm just trying to get is there anything so what's in here is a series of site photos series of site photographs and some of the additional site documents planning documents that were prepared by Mr Blackman and his firm so there's cut sheets for artificial turf lighting correct fire pit table a a stool bar stool um tables and chairs exactly there's some excerpts from the plan have these already has the plan exhibit already been submitted or are these different from what was submitted before they are reduced copies of the drawings that were submitted with the application okay so these are just kind of for the boards to be handy to the board but they already have it essentially correct except for the except for the catalog cuts on products and the additional site photographs at the beginning okay thank you John we'll just mark this A1 the entire thing yes uh Mr chair as Yan indicated the uh the subject property uh is operated as the Grand Hotel uh it is a um a non-contributing structure at 1045 Beach Avenue the application that is proposed seeks approval for the construction of an outdoor seating area uh that seating area is going to be reserved solely for the use by hotel guest uh and it's proposed to include two outdoor fire pits a flag pole an ADA Compliant ramp uh and seating to to be provided to each of the there you go I'm sorry of those seating in the area um the area is also proposed to have a floor covering of Synthetic Turf um which which I know is is an issue that that is been at the four here in the city of Kate May recently uh I'll note just for uh the record that this application was filed in 2023 uh was deemed complete by the zoning Board in May of this year prior to that ordinance taking effect that stated we know that we have to come here and ask approval we're doing so this evening and we've not yet been heard by the zoning board on that application as of yet um here with me is I've indicated is uh Mr Jerry Blackman Jerry is the architect that drafted the site plan for this application I'm going to ask Jerry to go over the application a little more detail additionally uh Bob banson is here Bob's a member of ocean font Properties LLC he's here to answer any questions that the board may have although I don't intend to ask any questions of him directly uh but Jerry with that if you can uh go over over the plan that's proposed uh and and why it is that we're asking the board for this evening sure the um the plan that is proposed is a seating area uh located just east of the exterior swimming pool that's on the site uh the the area in question is about 1,569 Square ft um it provides seating you know through a a series of uh four person tables and then two larger rectangular tables that actually have a fire pit in the center um a total of of 50 six seats the area um as um explained was as provided solely for the the convenience of the guests it's not open to the general public uh it is elevated above the sidewalk level um it's approximately a foot above the sidewalk level uh there is intervening between the beach Avenue sidewalk and the seating area um a brick retaining wall which is existing a landscaped area that contains the freestanding sign uh for the property property um and then a series of of uh shrubs bushes flowers uh providing Landscaping which sort of screens the seating area uh from the sidewalk in addition to that the the seating area is surrounded by a um a constructed cut off wood piles and and rope uh sort of rail uh that defines the the perimeter of the seating area um so it you know I would you're hard pressed to see uh the SE seating area from a pedestrian point of view on the sidewalk or from an automotive point of view if you're driving along along Beach Avenue I think to actually see the the the bulk of the seating area you actually have to come on premises um into the parking area the um the flag pole that is at the center of the seating area is existing um it's been there for for some time it's been there for decades um the lighting for the flag pole is also existing uh none of that is is new the retaining wall that you know is in the right of way along um Beach Avenue is is also existing uh the Landscaping is kept up annually at the at minimum um but the landscaped area that you see there is is existing although some of the plantings um were new really the pieces that are new are the the the turf grass that was installed the installation of the furniture and the installation of the cut off piles sort of wall that defines the the seating area um we do have low-l sight lighting um it's provided by decorative lighting fixtures that are dispersed along the perimeter of the seating area sitting on top of some of the cut off piles um it's really not meant for Sight lighting for um for the drive aises or sidewalks it's more for helping to Define I guess the seating area um the area is two steps up from the sidewalk level which is along the parking space is on the north and south side of the of the swimming pool uh the ramp that was mentioned uh provides access from the seating area up to the pool deck the pool deck is about a foot higher than the seating area um and the pool deck its fence its seats its finishes all of that and any lighting around the pool all of that is existing um it's not actually proposed to be changed as part of this application um the application does include the small areas um adjacent to Beach Avenue that were formerly landscaped areas that were infilled with asphalt paving to create two additional parking spaces um we are going to be I guess uh discussing with the zoning board the provision of those parking spaces and the nature of a parking variance that'll be requested as part of the application um there are actually a number there's a few variances that we will be I guess discussing with the zoning board at at that application hearing um um can I just ask you a question really quick so this is you're you're here tonight presenting and this specific outdoor seating area and these materials to the HPC is there another aspect of this application that is going before the planning or zoning board so there are uh one of the variances that were highlighted before the board is the cumulative um percentage area of accessory uses on the property so that's something that that collectively is not is not here before the board but it's something else to be considered by the zoning board so there are some different aspects to be considered by zoning but the Crux of that application the reason it was bought was to was to legalize the the patio area that's being proposed uh that's before you tonight the only reason I asked that is because usually when an applicant comes in here and says hey we're going to the planning or zoning board what does the HPC think that process is typically conceptual approval followed by a conceptual review letter to whatever board you're going to and then once you get through because they may have their own comments sure um but you go to that with the benefit of the hpc's review and comment in a formal letter and then after that you come back for final and you may come back and say hey we changed nothing what do you think of that but that I'm just trying to orient this application for the board procedurally because you you marked final but it sounds like you're going to one of the boards so that's we are okay yes we are uh and so we we'd be fine with doing that coming going forward with conceptual uh review and hopeful approval this evening and then going before the zoning board and coming back to let you know if anything was changed at that time we're fine with doing so okay just I'll mark this conceptual okay sorry to interrupt go ahead oh all good very good thank you uh the I don't know that we had enough but the applica exhibit A1 that was handed out to the board members um contain some additional photographs uh that were not in the original application um which might prove just a little bit of of uh information I guess about the the appearance of the of the seating area um it's currently unused you know we are awaiting final approvals before the actual seating area is utilized but it has been constructed um as you look through the the packet um you can see there is on page n Jerry before you go for it can you just indicate to the board that you took these photographs oh yes correct all right thank you uh if you switch to page four you can see um I'm standing on the sidewalk along Beach Avenue and and looking towards the seating area in the pool um you can see it's difficult to see much of anything of the seating area other than the flag pole uh the photograph that's at the top of the page and actually as I turn to my left and I start to walk onto the premises along the drive aisle the picture at the uh the bottom of the same page is when you begin to see actually into that seating area you can see this the furn the turf grass um you know in each of those those elements that make up the um the seating area the the pages that that follow uh sort of the building material schedule um is product data for the the Synthetic Turf that was provided for the seating area um catalog cuts are the lighting fixture that sits on top of the perimeter cut off wood piles post we included um product data for each of the pieces of furniture that are located in the seating area um there's no other Furniture fixtures or anything along those lines that's proposed to be placed in the seating area later um what you see in the in the packet labeled as as exhibit one is is part and parcel everything that's to be located in the seaing area um where is the sorry for interrupting where's the fire pit oh it's actually in the photographs it's actually covered it's they the two fire pits are those long rectangular tables that flank the flag pole on the middle okay the fire pits in the middle of the table um but if you look at page no I saw that okay yep thank you sure so Jerry when you're looking at this and you look at this from the perspective of the of the stor design standards right the hpcs are you hard pressed to view this as a visible yard area it's it's diff when considering it from the streetcape in a perspective point of view of a pedestrian yes unless you're on premises it's difficult to see um and the the Grant hotel is while it's in a historic district it's not it has not been deemed as a contributing structure as part of the historic district um we are looking at improvements that are solely on premises difficult to view from Vantage points other than the premises um if you're familiar with the site the the Grant hotel is actually of a u shape and the neighboring properties that are North and South um you really can't see seat past I guess the Grand Hotel towards this this seating area um I would say that if you were on the other side of beach and standing along the prominade along the seaw wall I suspect that you probably could get a view over the landscaping and into the seating area um but I think that might be the only vantage point that you could really see into that that area unless you were on premises and Joe the vantage point from the first photograph on the first page that you took were you on the second floor area of the hotel yes that is actually at the second floor uh the roof that's above the um the uh the restaurant and is the the covering of that area the floor covering for that area is that of the same material that's being proposed it is it is of the same material so it's consistent on property it's it exists there and it's been there for number of years I believe at this point right 20 plus 20 plus years okay y it's been there about 20 plus years and it's around 11 ,000 sare ft of I have a question for the record excuse me I noticed that these plans are updated plans are they meant to replace the plans that are in the packet that you submitted on June 18th they are the they're the same plans should be the same plan it's just a reduced copy it says added seating area yep that was a later revision that was made part of the application okay thank you um that's seeing that on my copy that was submitted on June 18th one second so yes we can um it it appears these are updated versions of the plan that were provided in the original packet so we will utilize these as opposed to the originally submitted plans that question thank you very much yep no problem um anything else you want to add the the landscaped area is is irrigated um Bob does keep that area maintained the sign that's in the landscaped area um is also existing it was not um part of this application you know other than maybe some minor painting or if there was minor repairs to be made to the sign um but the sign is is existing I'm not sure how long it's been there but I suspect it's been there for 20 plus years anything else Shar that was it thank you normally we would go around the room but this is a bit a bit straightforward a bit different I would open it up does any member of the commission have a question um so I have a question if you were if for whatever if we were not to approve the artificial Synthetic Turf what other material would you consider for the paving in the seating area well my guess would be that we would look at um some hard paer maybe a combination of Decorative Stone and paper a stones but something more along the lines of P I would suspect Okay the reason I ask is because as you know page 45 of our standard says that I quote the use of synthetic grass or turf inv visible yards is not appropriate so just real quickly I did a schematic section using 5'2 to 5 fo3 average eye height standing on the sidewalk 50 ft away to the backside of where that Paving is and even if that hedge were three and half fet High and the posts were but they're not you would still be able to see that from walking on the sidewalk even on the side of of Beach Avenue that the hotel is on so you may your perspective and by the way your documentation is beautiful it's really excellent and very clear and and helpful to us so I don't know what at what height you set the viewing point to look at in that one drawing but this section simple section shows that it would be visible so I would not be able to approve this because that has Synthetic Turf that's visible okay did did I understand you to say you had a lot of Synthetic Turf already on the premises yes about 11,000 square ft and and this is a total of 1,569 hey Bob can you just let the the for it where the existing Synthetic Turf where does that exist on property so over top of the restaurant is is one of the Sund decks and the other Sund deck is over top of the indoor pool and again the total area is approximately 11,000 square ft uh when we purchased the hotel in 1997 there was actually AstroTurf on the two decks and also the area that we're discussing here tonight um the astro turf was removed and the artificial grass was installed as I said about 20 years ago maybe 22 somewhere in that neighborhood um and then when we improve the area that we're discussing here today we use the same the same company the same same brand same everything so the specifications provided uh with our exhibit that that's what exists on the second floor levels right now right that type of correct okay yes uh the boards of Kate may have had their ups and downs on fire pits uh when Peter shields in put in fire pits which were not actually in their application uh the neighbors complained and as I remember right I think the planning board turned them down on operating that fire pit but then later on uh laam mer came along and promos fire pits setback in their front yard area and I think that went through planning board approval and was past does anybody remember those as the way I do yeah I I believe they they have permission to do fire pits at at L and and I don't have any difficulty with the the arrangement I think it's placed in in the logical place where it it needs to be I don't think it's obtrusive um relative to the views on beach but I am not a fan of artificial turf in any way shape manner or form um I don't want to expand its use in the city um I appreciate the fact that you've got a lot of it already there um but it seems to me and it seems to me that um The View that you would have rather than be concerned about artificial turf ought to be one where you have a harder surface and we've approved correct me if I'm wrong the Peter Shield's uh surface is a hard surface right at the corner of of Trenton and Beach and it's a hard surface I would I would urge you um for purposes of redesign for this to move away from the artificial turf and to use the harder surface to make a a flat hard surface I could support that I can't support the artificial turf at this point not eager to increase one extra inch of artificial turf in this city I'm sure you understand if we approve it somewhere no matter the surrounding areas this certainly is a great way to soften the area of a major building much larger than anything else in the historic district almost that you now have a nice soft looking area in the front and even the artificial grass would look better than an awful lot of things um uh but you know still you know as soon as we open it up to one application we're going to be see it and people's front yards around the town or request for it so and I think when we came in and and the idea that we had collectively was was the idea of visible versus nonvisible and I know that you just sort ofci on that point a little bit further but the way that we looked at it particularly in walking and driving by we didn't view we view the Landscaping that exists as certainly a visible aspect of the front facade of the property Long Beach given this sort of being behind it and and down in terms of level we didn't view it as visible which we thought was you know gave us the ability to come in and you know with a straight face make the argument that hey we don't believe this to be a visible front yard and we thought the HPC could look at this favorably without looking you know going against what your designed standard state if you agreed with the point it was not in a visible front yard can can I ask an additional question John to your visible um did where where was the Vantage Point were you taking that from the sidewalk because or were you taking it from the bulkhead because across the street the seaw wall is going to be expanded in I took it from the sidewalk on the same side of the street as the hotel and at five between 5 foot2 and 5 foot 3 Above That Sidewalk which is average ey height even with the Landscaping you would be able to see can at the dist at the farthest point towards the pool you would be able to see it based on my section there's no doubt from the seaw wall from the seaw wall when that's built it's visible it's visible from across the street even though it's got nice foliage in front of it it's still visible okay I just wanted to clarify that point too other questions or comments I I would agree with the comments um the standards are relatively new as you know and um um were the result of a an extended effort to explore all products and and potential products um and are part of the zoning ordinance so I don't I would agree that um it's not appropriate um application for this the the rest of the presentation I'm I'm I'm comfortable with i would support I think um but the material uh should be changed so now we can we can vote or for table could or I could move to to approve it but but but the conceptual approval would note that um our approval is based and conditioned on using a hard surface instead of uh um artificial turf or maybe not even Sur it could be just regular grass just not grass I'm sorry I didn't want to preclude Mother Nature here just figure with the fire pit and and tables it might make better sense to have a surface that was a little harder but right yeah just exclude the use of artificial turf which would require them to come back well they have to anyway yeah we have to come back is that a motion um I could make it one I I would move the we Grant this application conceptual approval um on the condition that the surface um that in question not be u a surface made up of artificial turf I'll second that motion by Mr Testa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you thank you thank you hope you're having a good season up there everybody's having a good season next order of business Madison K May re LLC 1025 Beach Avenue block 1095 Lots 8 through 13 non-contributing this is a Sund deck roof addition guest house renovation and Landscaping you while Mr Clark is setting up I'll just give a brief introduction thank you uh thank you Mr chairman and members of the commission Anthony monzo from monzo cines dels representing the applicant which is Madison Kate May real estate LLC uh with me are Dan Alisia to my left who is a principal of the applicant and Mars Clark who's an architect from Das Architects we um appeared here in January of 2023 to get conceptual approval for two projects one big project with two facets of it one was the renovation minor renovation of the hotel mainly the construction of a permanent uh restaurant where the tent is currently situated with a deck on top and also enclosing or at least putting a covering on the um deck on the far side which is the west side of of the hotel and there's also a guest house which is a contributing building that was approved conceptually for uh many Renovations uh with certain conditions which uh the applicant has addressed and specifically and by the way we also went to the planning board and got approvals for both projects uh and so the only open item is getting final approval from HPC um the only uh condition that the commission wanted with respect to the hotel based on the approving resolution was that the standing seam roof be folded over the over on the edge I'm not quite sure what that means but if it whatever a means the applicant is willing to do that and I'm not sure well we'll check it out yeah yeah if if you look at if you look at a historic copper roof when it gets close to the to the edge um it's generally like a 1in seam and when it gets down to the edge cor maybe a foot from the um edge of the roof it is then turned flat okay there is a process for doing that with a standing seam metal roof um the manufactured roofs um and it is available on the internet of how to so included in our how to fold that over in our submission was a um plan for the renovation I believe it's toward the back and it um actually um it's marked as page 800 and I'm not sure that that shows you the detail that you need but that is an acceptable condition um for the applicant so that's not an issue right you've agreed to do that yes uh the second part part of it was the uh guest house which is at the corner of um of Madison and I guess it was um Kierney or Stockton I'm sorry and the conditions that were um requested by the commission was the um that the chimney be retained uh that all windows stair risers guard rails trim railings water table lattice columns and column covers be wood no composite material railing system must be appropriate for the structure and that the commission wanted to see exist existing elevations to compare to the proposed elevations all of those conditions have been addressed and are acceptable and we believe the um plans reflect that so with that background I'm going to have Mr Clark just go through a little more detail the changes and the um and the plan revisions that were made and then to address any questions that the commission may have so before you do I just have a quick question the the drawings that you've submitted are dated um revised April 15 2024 are those the most recent drawings and the notes are correct in these drawings the latest drawings should have been June June 14th I just want to make sure we're looking at the most recent drawings they should have been I'm actually looking at the the my concern mostly is around the renovation of the house the architectural plans have not changed the floor plans yeah but the uh the renderings the the notes the notes on the architectural plans have changed we updated them and as part of the pack 614 okay thank you and the oh you're in in the revision block you see 4:15 that's 2024 does it have the 614 along the side yeah yeah okay good thank you the same one m and everything's bubbled with with a Delta one in the notes you should see oh it's it it's vertical on the side of the yes okay apologize for that go right uh Morris Clark I am a partner and uh architect at The Architects 1628 JFK Boulevard sweet 1300 Philadelphia PA um I've been I don't know if you need any information on my background I'm liced in New Jersey I've been in front of the zoning board the planning board and many similar boards uh both in New Jersey and uh Pennsylvania so the uh the project as as uh Anthony had stated we uh we only made a couple minor changes mostly at the at the guest house um I can take you through the entire project again if you'd like or just the changes whatever is easiest for the for the board do you do you have a preference gu we're looking just uh share with us the changes and then if if that creates confusion or conversation and we'll go back having problems hearing sorry is that better um so uh one of the changes that was made at and this was at the planning level uh that's updated on the site plan which is uh the HPC 010 uh was simply we had uh proposed to remove the the kitty pool and we were going to infill it we are infilling it with uh with lawn so that is going to be natural grass now I'm sorry sir I can't hear not any Hardscape closer to you please okay uh the the the kitty pool is being was being infilled it previously was shown as Hardscape it's it's now being shown as grass as natural grass um so that's the uh the only change on the site plan again uh changes to the actual Hotel building there there there were none we we're still showing the same same facade the additional columns the uh the additional roof as well as the expansion of the uh of the restaurant on the on the first floor and the roof deck uh when we get to the guest house um the the changes here were really based on our conversation at the the preliminary review where we are we've updated our drawings to reflect that all of our trim for the water table our our Windows our doors trim around our doors uh will all be uh wood we show that in the drawings uh notes to 2 5 9 12 and 14 have all been updated to reflect the new painted wood railings and that's on HPC HPC 204 that is correct Mr Clark just as you go through this if you could just reference the page number as you're talking about each one thank you as well on HPC 205 where we are showing the second and third floor of the guest house uh again the notes are updated um and bubbled with the addendum marker showing that we are complying with the requested wood railings at the at the stair at the rear as well as our balconies um having wood [Music] trim I'm I'm sorry to interrupt you there but both of those notes you just referred to on HPC 204 and 205 still indicate in note 12 and 14 that you're using an aluminum guardrail system is that accurate sorry note 12 I I apologize uh the sheet notes for um the project are both for the hotel and the guest house so you will see that there is no note 12 on the guest house thank you for that yes so sorry uh and just to further answer your question on HPC 600 if you look at the notes here you will see that note 12 is pointing to the new aluminum railings throughout on the hotel and not I bring that up just not to interrupt you but an HPC 603 which definitely shows the guest house note 16 still calls for aluminum guard rail and that note is shown on the elevations for the guest house so is that inaccurate yes I that it's on the second floor of uh on 603 of the uh rear stair that is incorrect yeah actually it shows up on the second and third floor so what would that note read if it it should be note three uh thank you new painted guard rail with mahogany cap which also is um shown in section on HPC 602 uh detail three and four show sections of the proposed railing and null post for the guest house unfortunately we don't have 602 that I can see do we I have it too busy with my magnify 602 oh it's yeah okay thank you do you have it I was going to say I have a couple extra copies here I can pass along if but in other words as it pertains to the the house I'll call it there's not going to be any aluminum no no aluminum railing on the guest house that is only for the hotel since my my magnifying glass isn't able to move fast enough on these notes you tell me is the guest house having new windows there are a couple new windows which are being replaced due to um uh two of them are they're egress they need to be egress windows back out to the fire stair right and they're in bad shape as well so we need to meet I have no problem with that it's that I see in your your your writer relating to Windows they refer to Anderson a series um and when I look at your cut sheets again I may be reading incorrectly but and a series does not seem to be an Allwood window it it talks about having composits it should be there should be a wood compon and wood says that there's a fiberglass cladding on the exterior which was which is it would be wood cladding um I apologize if the wrong series is quoted here let me double check that so so so you realize we're going to condition it on an Allwood window right it has to be W wood yes and it will be it should be wood we're going to need to make sure that the final plans that we look at have those on it so that when we sign it goes to the Construction office there's no confusion as to what the material absolutely we can get the corrected um Anderson series um Anderson does not have a wood a wood window well well yeah I apologize to pick another manufact it will be another manufacturer it will not be Anderson that is a that is a mistake on our on our part and we will pick up those two uh Rogue note 16s on the railing as well and we can get them over immediately continue yep uh so just continuing to the guest house we already touched on the elevations but HPC 602 are the East and North elevations um again you can see we are proposing to keep the cedar shakes on the facade the wood windows and replace the current asphalt shingle roof with uh Cedar as well 602 is also again where the uh proposed railing details show up HPC 603 is the west and south elevations um here you can see the Allwood stair that comes down the back that is really the fire the fire stair in the in the rear um where we are replacing a couple of those windows with the new wood windows for eag purposes as well as our wood trim our wood railings our brick at the bottom which exists with a wood water table and our railing again HPC 604 this is showing just some signage details for the hotel itself um we had provided these for zoning and just for some lighting information so we do have in elevation one this is a sign that's being built over the existing pool equipment room and we are putting this sign and we have three LED spotlights that will light the um wood Madison Resort K May sign on the front as well as in the half circle Dormer on the top center of the hotel that's elevation 4 showing again the Madison sign which has a linear LED fixture that will that protrudes from the building in a brass finish and uh will shine back onto the surface of that sign so that it is face lit 604 Mor I don't I maybe I missed it but I don't see any calling out of the material of the signage face what material is that sign made out of uh it's it's it's painted uh painted wood okay the sign I believe it could be a I I don't it could be a painted metal I I I I suppose for durability for the sign itself but it would be in the uh in the white paint finish have you thought about the temperature of your LEDs uh yes and I apologize I do not think it's 3,000 3,000 yep so you're just on the edge of worm going to White we wanted to stay away from the bright white but enough that it could was warm enough to be seen so 3,000k is your yeah 3,000k is what we've specified and HPC 800 this series is uh artist renderings so you can see the uh on 800 this is the front of the hotel and restaurant so you can see the expansion of Harry's with the roof deck as well as the additional columns that were added with the roof to change the roof uh profile along the existing hotel and the extension over the existing Sund deck and the change in uh paint color 801 is a another artist rendering just from the corner looking back at the hotel and you can see the guest house in the back so again these complimentary colors to fit more within the neighborhood as well as just Cape May in general um toning the toning everything down 802 is an aerial looking down on the expansion of the Harry's uh restaurant and and outdoor lounge area with the lounge seating and you can see the uh the new signs on the center roof in that half half round roof as well as over the existing pool uh equipment room 80 803 is another rendering from the corner looking back at the guest house here you can see the uh the cedar shake the wood the the brick ba the the Brick base the brick chimney that is remaining and all the um wood railing system and wood trim that we are [Music] proposing okay so just to be clear on the guest house all of the material which includes the windows the risers the guard rails the trim the railing the water table lattice columns are going to be wood correct wood products that is correct could could I suggest that um would be a lot easier for our followup if the guest house had a separate material list this this material list is really unsatisfying it says attached Rider attached Rider attached Rider and then you have to go back into the plan and and read this microscopic print um so uh I think it would be helpful that that there's a separate material checklist for the for the home we can we can provide that which would pick up all the issues that we just talked about correct the other comment that I would add to that is I know this already received conceptual approval and I recall seeing existing versus proposed plans for the guest house when you submit the final drawings it would be really helpful to have existing versus proposed so it's very clear what the changes are that are being proposed in both plan site plan and elevation okay so I think we had given photos based on the request for elevation we thought they read a little better but I we can provide plans yeah we had those in conceptual but now it's months and months later so it's we can't hold those drawings in our head we can do that I do think overall most of the things that you're planning here whether we're arguing about whether they're label right or wrong are very handsome uh additions the colors are going to work a lot better to soften the effect of the whole thing I think the uh eye appeal of the building uh is going to be very excellent and really fit uh fit in a lot more with that wonderful line of houses that uh are just right to the west of it yes thank you I just have one question too regarding the exterior of the guest house I see you have um stairwells that touch all floors interior uh what is the need for the external stairways it's a secondary egress from the guest room from the guest room so there's uh balconies the the hous is is guest rooms on two and three so they are a primary egress yeah yeah so there are EG windows that are allowing guests out in case of an Emer that's the what I saw somewhere where it was described as a fire escape yeah it's a fire escape it's a wood fire escape and we made sure to stay with windows so that PE keep people from wandering out there that's because of that third floor right guest guest house with a third floor you need that second means to be gra correct other questions or comments for this applicant I will make a motion good luck that we offer conceptual approval with a separate set of plans for the guest house uh with materials before pictures after uh work we're showing everything that we've talked about to be in wood from the windows the siding the trim and uh that it all comes out different than what you're proposing on the main building can I can I just ask you to amend that to say final approval because they've already had conceptual they have no further Passage through any other board so we can can attach the conditions but it's a final approval we're looking for final final approval well wait a minute wait a minute we do we get a resolution with we do final with modifications yes and that's that's as I see it I think the board has two options right now they've already got conceptual they went to the other board to run through that whole process they're back here for final what the board can do is either they can take the comments you could see if the applicant wants to come back with those at a follow-up meeting to address those comments tonight or we can go back through the discussion and make a very long condition list that is incorporated into a resolution of approval I don't there really are only about three conditions I think well they have to four four five let's talk about them so that and see if it's too onerous to do a vote for that so it's so I have them listed here if you want me to okay go ahead John yeah the first is uh wood windows with exterior primed wood second is wood railing stair structure on the guest house all materials being wood third is the wood signage at the hotel being painted wood and fourth that submission of the final drawings include the revised notes and existing condition I at the guest house we have the risers and lattice and wood also yeah I included that in the stair structure and the lattice is shown as as painted wood currently my my suggestion would be that those conditions if met can be look reviewed in committee and um I I don't see a need to come back with a full presentation if it's acceptable to the commission it it's fine with me as long as we can get a resolution we we can and I'm not discouraging you from doing that I just want to make sure that we have all the issues on the table because then if we do a resolution they should be in there and it's not like we're going to say hey we forgot one come back so Tom you made the motion so does do those conditions that I read the conditions you've added on and I'll include in my motion and also for final approval great I'll second that motion since this could go a little bit slow do we want the ASM to extend the time limit we have to finish this up um we we'll have a if we approve this motion tonight we'll have a resolution next meeting incorporating those conditions so I don't I don't see we'd be acting on it the applicant extends any time constraints sure it's necessary since we are getting um okay there's a resolution being considered tonight we'd be acting on it tonight and we'd have a resolution within the time required under the law so I'm okay will will the revisions arrive in time for the next meeting on a August 12th yes okay good thank you it's really up to them when they meet those conditions it's only going to hold up their project if they don't we've done our part by taking action with conditions you'll have them in you'll have them by the end of next week the earlier the better but my point is we don't have if we act on this we do a resolution with conditions we've done our duty M okay we ready for vote I am yes okay motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes M bisagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you thank you thank you next order of business is Lord 1239 New York Avenue clock 11:32 Lot 27 this is a contributing property and sighing is the issue thank you thank you Mr chairman members of the commission Anthony monzo from monzo delis representing the applicants Tom and Gigi Lord in connection with 1239 New York Avenue uh what and I have uh Tom and GG Lord with me here and they'll provide some testimony I do want to pass out some exhibits you I'll share with Tom we'll give you that we'll share okay El did you get one you get one I'm sharing with you oh you gave it away give give him Janice and I will share Is this different than the set you gave us this looks same oh okay these are um and I'll explain Mr Becker um okay so first um thank you for giving us the opportunity to come back and and try to um revise what was previously approved and just to go back to the to the start with this it was April of 2023 when we appeared here and received conceptual approval to renovate uh the Lord's home at 1239 New York Avenue it was a uh a four square home that was built in the early 1900s one of we think about 24 of this style mainly in that same section of Kate May many along New York Avenue and at the time the um conceptual approval was rece was approved um the applicant had proposed a hand dipped Cedar Shakes as this as the cladding material for the home right now there is a vinyl product on the house and underneath the vinyl is asbest and when the application for final was submitted based on the questionnaire what's underneath the asbest I believe they found that there was some clapboard siding so as a result of that and the applicants weren't prepared at least to address that so that's why we're back here because we wanted to produce some additional evidence um because when they they thought they were coming and getting their approval for the cedar shake and actually was they were trying to get a concession for um cement board type material which was not accepted but at least they want to be able to to do the cedar Shake which was always the style of of home that they wanted to build I they're renovating this home they're putting all new wood windows in and they're bringing it back to really a good um look that was that's prevalent throughout Cap May and especially this part of town so what was not presented at that meeting were the various homes uh of this style that had previously either been renovated or maybe had original material we're not sure but if I can just take you through the exhibits we didn't include in the application some references but um I took these photos this morning um exhibits a um one through a 12 well A10 and then 11 and 12 are um Google Earth photos that I wanted to just include just for some clarity actually 10 11 and 12 9 101 12 or Google Earth so I took um one through eight so I started at the 1000 block of New York Avenue all on the North side uh and these are all the same style home probably built around the same era the first one is exhibit A1 and the property address as you can see on the stairs is 1025 New York Avenue and that's a cedar Shake home um the next one is A2 and that is I think it's 1029 I'm not sure I can't read that yeah that's but that's on the same that's on the same block and that's also Cedar Shake home the next one is also on the same block and it's a cedar Shake home then we have one more and it's um A4 which is 1045 it's hard to see with the trees but that's a cedar Shake home same style home uh then the next one is in the 1100 block and that's exhibit A5 and that is again a four square home with cedar Shake um platting this next one is A6 and this is um this is 1121 New York Avenue this home is being renovated and the existing Cedar Shake um cladding is being replaced with new Cedar Shake cladding um the next one is A7 that's 1129 New York Avenue in that is also Cedar um Shea cladding this may be a synthetic material that's Hardy Board so I think that's Hardy Board and the last one is exhibit A8 which is on the 1300 block and that is also Cedar Shake uh the next four exhibits are some Google Earth photos uh the first one is just a clearer uh photo of 1045 New York Avenue that was kind of hidden by the trees it's still hidden by the trees but it's a little more visible with cedar Shake uh this next one was not included in the photos and that's 1117 New York Avenue Cedar shake and a lot of these homes style the home was the same pretty much throughout but you'll see different porches different staircases and in fact there are two of them that are not in the photos they may be in the package that actually put a garage off to the side of them but they're all Cedar Shake um this 1121 New York Avenue is uh Cedar shake and this is the one that was being renovated um this is what it looked like before the renovation started and the last photo is the subject property again same style um that has the um vinyl siding on it so when I when I go through the standards um the main thing is it has to be appropriate and you know what's an appropriate material for this type of home and for this p period and for this neighborhood and I'm not sure anybody on the commission can say that cedar shakes are not appropriate I mean they're clearly appropriate um and it doesn't say that when you find out that the evidence shows with the original material was it the standards do not say you must use the original material uh if you look at the actual standards and and I'll just quote them if you go to um when I turn to page uh 22 it says it is encouraged that replacement cladding on contributing buildings or additions to contributing properties replicate the original cladding in both material and design it says it is encouraged not required and then it goes on to say that composite or imitative cladding is never appropriate for contributing Properties or new additions to contributing properties so we have a difference between what the what's encouraged as as as cladding material as opposed to what's required what's appropriate versus what's inappropriate and to me it's very hard to come to the conclusion that cedar Shake siding that's on and we counted uh uh 20 uh 22 of the 24 four square homes uh only two of them have the clapboard siding and all the other ones have either a natural wood shingle or a composite wood uh or shingle style of cladding on page 25 exterior clading standards for contributing property it says if the original or historic exterior cladding does not exist but there's physical or documentary historical evidence of the original exterior cladding it is encouraged that the new exterior cladding replicated in both materials and design again it's merely encouraged not required um lastly I go to um toward the end of the standards and they go through the various periods and on page 90 um it is the post Victorian period where a lot of these Bungalows uh were were built in the uh early 1900s um and it says including um California Bungalows the prairie house and the American for square which is what this is and then on the next page when it talks about exterior cladding for these style homes and the period it was 1890 to 1940 it says wood clapboard or shingle um this is not about cost uh the cost of U clapboard siding is actually less than what the Lords want to do they had a vision they live New York Avenue they looked at all these homes they love the weathered um shingle style home which is prevalent throughout this part of town and with this additional evidence we're respectfully requesting that the commission reconsider the uh approval that had wood clapboard siding and allow them to put the sheeter the cedar shingle or Shak style um cladding and I'll let um maybe Mrs Lord can can provide testimony or Tom do you want to just make any statements on this both can okay but uh did you do one or you go first thank you um the house as we've been before you a couple of times it was built in 1910 it's been in our family originally Tom so I was fortunate to marry into the family but it's been in the family uh for 95% of that time I believe Tom's great-grandfather uh purchased the home in 1914 it originally had the clapboard which we found out when we completed the um the documentation for our final approval That Was Then covered up with asbestos which I don't know if I'm going to use the proper terminology but since we're learning about reveals and so forth that asbestos was probably 10 11 in wide and it is what is still currently on our garage that you all have approved to be demolished after that Tom's parents put on the vinyl yes it's vinyl but it's it looks like shingles our intent with this renovation which is quite extensive because the house has not really had many major Renovations over the course of 114 years but our intent is to maintain the look and feel of the family house this is the only house that our children have ever lived in it is a house that the rest of Tom's siblings and his family it it's still considered the family house so that's why we would like to try and preserve it in the way that Tom's parents left it when we bought it from them back in 2009 as um Tony mentioned he gave you pictures of many of the four square homes on New York Avenue there are many other types of homes the newer ones some of them have the Hardy board and other materials but the majority of the other existing older homes are also the cedar Shake being a corner property we're very proud to show off our home and by asking for the cedar Shake shingles again which was originally approved during the uh our conceptual meeting in March of 23 that that's what we would you know like for you guys to approve here so thank you well D um actually I wish she was here at the last meeting because gig's much better at uh visualizing these things and uh I was alone along with architect at that last meeting and when the um clap board with for in reveal was approved I was totally taken by surprise because we already had conceptual approval for the cedar s shot sighting and we thought going to be smooth sailing um but the clapboard I I just couldn't visualize that because I've always known our house to have the uh shingle siding and um it's very common in our neighborhood uh as Tony pointed out there's only two homes Square Four Square homes like ours out of 24 we walked through did a survey of all of them and only one of them was was uh Cedar the other one was was uh vinyl um but um but anyway we want to conform to the to the streetcape uh as well as uh the home the family home in the look and feel that uh that we've that we've always known the the issue though is um uh this is a contributing home and um the evidence that you've provided yourself is that it was originally CLA with clab birs and um our standards are are really quite clear I think with regards to if there's original material if you know what it is on a contributing key home then that's the material that should be used in a renovation so it the question is for me is not whether there's a a number of Cedar Shake cedar shingle clad homes in the area the question is what did this contributing home have um also which we haven't discussed but the garage um would be expected to be clad in the same material even even though the the garage is added at a at a different time the gar I don't mean to interrupt the garage was already I mean we're not looking to undo what was previously approved with respect to the garage that was approved and then in committee because it was new construction it was permitted to use the Hardy Board shingle style and the the basis for that request was due to the close PR proximity of our neighbors garages we only there's only about 3T difference so at the last review meeting that our architect had with a few of the members it was approved that the garage could be um that we could use the Hardy Board on the garage I I I don't want to get into the uh issue of the garage um and I I think Council has uh has counted up all the encourages that our standards have in it I I find this a case really of of of equity um in terms of and and I look at the I look at this as an application um that in the ultimate course of our judging um we have to determine whether or not the the requested um shingles and shakes have a serious um to to my way serious way of um undermining the determination of this property is contributing uh we cannot let that happen uh and and I I've come to the view that um our design standards for me at least have some degree of flexibility in them um and when I read that it is encouraged for the replacement cladding on contributing properties to be replicating the original cladding in both materials and design there's no doubt that what's proposed is replicating the materials it's wood um and and it's wood uh which is which was and is and was commonly in use at the time and and I think that that given the the overall improvements in this and we have in the past given credit to owners who have taken properties which have been badly damaged and questioned um by for example the addition of asbest and vinyl and windows that and and they and and they've been much closer to losing their status as contributing properties so for me the equity ities that have been applied here to improve this property the fact that what's being proposed is wood the fact that they are shingles and that was commonly in use although not originally apparently on this particular dwelling but common in the neighborhood and to me it would not it would not harm the streetscape it would not harm the status of this structure as contributing so I am sympathetic to to the arguments that are made here and and I'm willing to reconsider and to approve this with um um with the proposed wood um shingles on it that's that's the way I feel about it I just I would just comment that um to to say this is the same material because it's wood and it's Cedar it's dramatically different I mean a a a shingle home and a Clapper home are dramatically different they're two different things consistently we've we've used if there's evidence of historic material that that material should be replicated we see that often in roofs where there's an asphalt fiberglass roof and then when they remove the asphall fiberglass they find that they're Cedar uh shingles and we we uh would only approve Cedar Shing in this instance we find wood clabber and and and the standard I think is is clear I don't think because it's wood well it's not just wood it's cedar wood but it's a it's a different product uh it's it's it's a different I mean I don't I don't I con seeed that it is not similar in design it is to me a similar material I I I view that's the wording of our design it's not similar in material I mean it's although I think there entitled to to our own viewpoints I think there's another question we're not asking that might help do we know for sure that underneath that clabber or that that clabber siding was the original siding on the 1910 house do we know for sure that that's the case from the sampling that we took well so you guys we don't know if the whole house was done that way correct so you delaminated what was on there and that the oldest extent material was collaborate but we don't know whether at some point Cedar Shake had been taken off and cabber put on we don't know that is that correct no yeah okay thank you um what what was the date of your house Tom 1911 1911 and you showed us a picture at the last time you were here that looking down it looked like it was the only one in that area so which make me think that was one of the first ones to be built right and in 1911 that was when things were really starting to change from colonial revival which was clapboard into American shingle sty as we've seen so much in the whole rest of that town particularly up on the beach front so I could see that this might have been done in clapboard but taste was changing and that many this is one of the properties that was part of the East Cape May real estate development scheme and lots were sold buildings were put up and a perfect example of that transition is 1501 Beach which is in Cedar clab and the next story house built the next year in 1912 which is in Cedar shake well perfect example of the point you're making me he's he's doing something that the whole rest rest of that row of almost identical houses uh had done from the beginning I I I personally feel it is not reasonable for us even though the standards followed to the letter say that this must be both in materials and design I feel it's unreasonable for us to insist that this go back to original collaborate that is the view I take is the view I will vote for you're voting to let him have cedar shingle I am yeah okay well that's I mean I would someone proposed a motion I would I would vote for there a transition of sty right in that time 23 more houses built with almost the same and Tom I again I'd say that I given the the other improvements to this house the fact that it's been rescued for some really deleterious things that have happened over time I believe that the Lords are entitled to the equities of the improvements and and the benefit of those things and and that's why I would support it I wasn't trying to argue with you no I'm not saying you are I'm just trying to explain my position obviously we have been a clap board originally and why it was in a change period of real change but but of course it wasn't it was probably was claber yeah I mean I I don't know but I I guess I've made my position pretty clear and the garage is new construction is that correct yeah yes other comments thank you do I have a motion well I'd like to make a motion that we approve the application um to um in revision to the original one to permit the applicant to sheath his house in um cedar shingles instead of clapboard that we revise we we do not we do not require them to use cedar clabo do I have a second second I have a question uh the motion or the resolution and approval that we're we're proposing to modify tonight referenced as the condition of approval the applicant is required to utilize horizontal wood Clapper siding on both structures with no more than a 4-in reveal which includes both the principal building and accessory garage are we dealing with that tonight Mr monzo Mr Gillan Schwarz we included in our application the minutes I believe from the review committee meeting where the the position on the garage was altered okay um I bring that up as a point of clarification so that we if whatever the next resolution reflects anything that's happened in the interim so so so to clarify I believe you guys are proposing that the clading on the new garage be Hardy shingles of the style and sizing that would match the seed or Shake you're proposing on the primary house is that accurate okay so whatever is approved tonight will be Hardy material on the accessory garage Y correct okay that motion was made and seconded we have a motion and a second motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Miss bagno Mr copelan no Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes and I'd like to say why as Jim would always say I've played in about every house in town when I was a child I had many friends who lived on that street from the time I was a child and I was an adult one of my best friends lived there and to me those houses I mean the cedar shakes are just synonymous with those houses and that's what they have had and that's what they should have So my answer is a yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you very much thank you thank you new business 20 Grant Street Kate May LLC block 1019 lot 14 thank you not rated it's a new house okay would you turn on your mic and share with us who you are and who you're with thank you good evening thank you again for all your volunteer efforts and I agree with pus I spent many of fun times in the Lord's House so a lot of nice memories and it is why we're here today to keep Kate May a family resort and I'm very proud a year later that I purchased my neighbor's home from a meeting I had here and now uh the home is uh I have three children I own three continuous homes on Grant Street and my intention of the home I bought in November of 2023 is to put my third home on the street to keep my children together in Kate may I am Seventh Generation going back to the 1840s on my mother's side both my mother's maternal and paternal parents the king King Family on Beach and uh Jackson and the Kelly Family on Patterson and Beach um I'm here today with James Chadwick my architect and uh we at the last meeting we got approval to remove the existing Bungalow and here we are proposing to hopefully build a new family private home uh for my third child good evening um I'm James Chadwick I'm a registered architect and engineer in the state of New Jersey I've been here several times if you need me to throw any curriculum V or that kind of stuff into the air I'll be glad to do that um but I think you recognize me I've been here several times in the past you have a packet of documents that my office has prepared in in regards to the proposed structure um of those preliminary or conceptual floor plans and elevations you have um I have in the past week or two made some minor changes and colored up the front building uh to show you a colored rendering of this so I have enough to pass everything out to everybody I'll do that for excuse me Mr Chad could you move your mic closer it doesn't seem to be Reg can you hear me better yeah thank you jam turn the other one on too that might even Mr Chadwick that you just uh make sure it's green hit hit the button again just hit it make sure it's green that's fine that's good green is good Mr Chadwick just to confirm what you're handing out right now is the same stuff that you it before just with color right yes but but with some modifications that you're going to go over correct okay yes it's bigger thank you um we have proposed a single family resident says Kathy has said to go on this property um it is the easterly most lot of the three lots that Miss hey owns there is uh you should be aware a concurrent subdivision application at the planning board that will seek to modify the lot dimensions and provide more lot area for this lot the configuration that you see on the plan that you have is consistent with what is being proposed at the planning board she has three lots two of them are regular relatively odd shaped the easterly most one which is this lot is kind of a cut off triangle portion lot and what we're essentially doing is taking some land area from the adjacent Lot number 236 adding it to this lot to make this lot larger in area and a simple rectangular shaped lot rather than the odd-shaped lot that it is same thing so so that's in the works now that is currently under review with the planning board we've received their initial plan review comments we'll be back before them soon but I wanted to make sure you were aware that the lot configuration shown here is consistent with that pending or current application and I I apologize because I was walking around when you were talking but just to confirm this proposed building is premised on redrawing some lot lines of some property that you own is that what I just heard yes okay so you have a a proposed subdivision minor subdivision plan minor subdivision to the planning board that's pending right now yes okay and we're not asking for any variances we are We Are One variance one okay one minor so procedurally did you catch my discussion earlier about the first people that were here when you're going to the board going to either the planning or zoning board the first stop is conceptual review with the HPC any discussion items get put into not a resolution but a conceptual review letter that goes to those boards so when you go to planning they will see yes they went to the HPC here are the comments and then you come back for final afterwards so that's you you've applied for final here but we'll convert this to conceptual based on the acknowledgement that you're having to go you have to go to the plane agree right okay um and in fact they have indicated that obviously we do have to come to the HPC and their final approval would be conditional upon whatever happens here as well so we're aware of that okay I just wanted to make sure you guys were all aware of some of the minations that are happening in the background um they are for lack of a better term um minor configurations of lot lines to make this a more easily workable lot to give it more land area to make it more conforming in lot area to the ordinance and to deal with some minor easements because these are three contiguous Lots owned by the same person there are a couple of easements that are part of that subdivision so that these Lots can intercommunicate okay so what we've just handed out to you a couple moments ago is a colored rendering of the front elevation of the residence that we propose along with a copy of the first floor I'm sorry ground floor plan of the proposed structure I did this for a couple of reasons first off I think it's always beneficial to give you a color rendering that has some some depth with Shadow lines Etc so you get a better feel for the structure that's proposed the other issue is we recognize that the structure that we're proposing has a proposed garage area underneath the residential portion of the building and we understand that part of the regulations or standards that have recently been approved by the HPC have guidance in regards to trying to keep the structure as low as possible and not inordinately raising the structure just to create a garage underneath it I believe there are other Provisions that say you don't want garage doors facing the street or visible from the street so the two plans that were handed out to you just a couple moments ago I believe address those two issues one of the problems we have on this lot is it's fairly low in elevation Grant Street in front of the property floods very easily um storms with the heavy rains that we had just last week Friday Friday right parking signs are still up today Road flooding so we want to get the parking obviously on site and we're required to do that by ordinance anyway um we want to protect that parking we also realize we don't want these garage doors blasting out towards the street so we've done two things we've taken the main two garage doors that are closest to the front of the street and in fact there are three garage doors we've located them on the side of the building on the easterly side of the building but taking those first two doors and recessed them roughly 4 feet into the building thus limiting their visibility from the street we've also then substantially landscaped the front of the lot to provide a visual buffer to those garage doors secondly and it deals with the the part of your standard that doesn't want the house ordinarily raised above uh a garage just placed underneath it we want to provide security by providing garage parking I think that's best done by providing a an attached garage for this structure but what we've done is proposed to raise the front grade of this property so that by constructing a low retaining wall a brick wall along the front of the property just adjacent to the sidewalk that wall would be approximately 18 to 24 in high we create a small buffer there and then have a sloping lawn going up toward the front of the residence to another retaining wall at the back of that in doing so the grade level at the street which is at three and with our finished floor proposed at 14 there's 11t difference there but what we're proposing to do by raising the grade the elevation underneath the house because of that flooding in the area will be raised to Elevation five if we go from the finished grade of the house at 5 to the floor level at 14 you've got nine ft for that if we go from grade of three at the front to the five underneath the building you're already raising 2 feet so we think that the the lawn area and the retaining walls that we proposed to place at the front will provide a visual buffer and also visually rais the grade at the front of the property so that the finished floor at 14 doesn't appear to be as high if we set that same floor at 14 without creating this landscaped area in the front of the building I think it would be doing what you don't want us to do therefore by raising this grade we can get away from that object or that idea of a building slapped on top of a garage underneath and thus looking Too Tall we think this proportionately makes the house fit within the neighborhood I would also say that in regards to the garage doors facing to the side there are a number of structures in the immediate vicinity of this dwelling on the same side of the street that have garages toward the front of the building actually at the front of the building and with garage doors facing the the side property line that condition happens at Kathy's current house the one she lives in at number 248 the house immediately adjacent to hers at I believe 256 has a similar condition they have a front door facing the street right they have four garage doors so in the packet that I provided to you is also a streetcape um we've tried to create a streetscape rendering using the structures that are already there to give you a sense of the size of this proposed structure versus the buildings that are there it's our opinion that what we've proposed is consistent with the size and type of structure that's in the neighborhood if you grab our little Street skate rendering here I just had a question regarding that um are these supposed to be to scale like this would indicate truly what the building would look like compared to the others or yes the proposed the ones that are in from the floor plans or I'm sorry from the building elevations yes these new buildings were inserted to these photographs at scale so you get a sense of the height of those buildings compared to the proposed structure on this slot here so yes no dimensions are included though in the others right you don't have any dimensions for the other properties to show for True comparison I don't but what I've shown is by the vertical lines or the loot division lines separating those Parcels okay I was more concerned basically with height they are consistent in regards to height because it looks like it's the same almost the same height as a one-story Cape Cod next to it no that's a twostory and it has a significant there's a twostory portion in the back yeah that's quite large the roof goes up in the back and then 236 was built that's my the home I was raised in in Cap May that was built in 1975 we occupied It For The First Time In The Summer of 76 what's difficult to ascertain is the setback of some of these buildings versus some of the others for example 226 which is immediately adjacent to this building is out towards the street but when you go to 248 that building is pushed way back 50 some 55 ft father the both houses to have air which is very nice 254 is pushed way back as well so in other words 226 would look larger because it's closer to 226 would you talk into the mic please so in other words 226 would look larger simply because it's closer to the straight level on the point of correct and the only thing that I can use to gauge and adjust sizes is lot widths because of the photographs of the existing structures so I've made this as accurate as I can as an engineer and an architect utilizing a mix of proposed elevations and photographs of existing structures if I'll walk you through the floor plan we have a garage area that we've proposed underneath the structure as I've already described one of the things we saw very clearly from the storm on Friday is the level or the ground flooding that occurs in the rear portion of this lot so although I would like to keep the ground at three and a half or four to keep it uh closer to the street level fact of the matter is the rear yard of this lot flooded so the elevation of the garage level of this building at two I'm sorry at 5.0 is only about 6 Ines higher than the elevation of 4.5 which occurs at the middle of this lot now so we have three proposed garage Bays two of which are recessed underneath the building the third is at the very back of the building that'll take a full-size car but we expect we're going to put a golf cart type uh element in there so there is an attached covered front porch obviously at the front of the building you see that from the elevation if I take you to the first habitable floor level of the building at elevation 14 you'll see we've provided one bedroom at the lowest floor elevation of the building living dining kitchen spaces a sun room and an exterior deck we've also provided a chairlift at the back of this property for handicap accessibility into the building and then the front porch as I've already described the next floor above has four bedrooms three baths and as you see on the right hand portion the standing seam metal roof above that front porch it's not an overly large structure it's approximately 2600 Square ft of habitable space certainly smaller than 2 54 236 and 224 on this same block within two or three houses away we believe this house given size of it fits within the neighborhood we think the architectural style fits within the neighborhood the gamber roof design um I think provides an attractive building we haven't provided large attic or habitable spaces at an extra half level that wasn't necessary we simply provided a twostory single family residence above a safe garage area that's raised up slightly above the flooding levels the my concept my concept for this home was a Dutch Colonial and there are quite a few Dutch Colonials throughout Cape May thank you questions or observations um from the commission applicant yeah can I just ask a quick question because I'm looking at the floor plans and trying to match them up with the elevations and the two the right and the left side elevation if you go to the second floor plan there's a an additional bump out on both sides it's about a foot and a half half bump out you're talking on the side of BU it includes the bathrooms on the uh second the second floor plan go to the right and left side elevations yeah that part that bumps out uhhuh is in reality this wall face here this portion here this portion here on both both sides of the building is pushed in roughly 18 in so that's why you perceive that bump out is that what okay so it's it okay is there sort of tapering of the roof correct it's our intent to keep the main roof lines of the of the Gamel roof of the gamble roof okay James as you might know we've made a major major effort in this town to prevent Our Town looking like all new vinyl houses in avlon and Stone Harbor correct and we've done a very very good job of it yes and would you consider uh wood siding and wood shrimp no seriously I'm in the yacht business and I just paid today someone to put um CLA all my um COA all my columns in my backyard at 248 that was a uh ASAC and we were able to CLA it and not have to touch the final finish and it really probably saved me about $8,000 today well some of the exceptions we made on new construction have been to use ASAC or Hardy Board Siding rather than vinyl well if you right do you um we were talking about using the same material that was just used uh coming into Kate May the renovation of the Spanish style property on Lafayette Street um that I don't know what you're talking about the siding uh be able to give us some samples of materials you're going to use yes some confusion though because they they co-mingle the terms I don't know why she said Spanish no no no we're not SP I'm saying there was a project that was Spanish and then it was renovated I'm proposing a 7 in high wide plank vinyl s or similar material in individually installed yes so a solid vinyl yes which ASAC is a is a manufactur it's not going to be ASAC but there are other materials that provide or other manufacturers that provide what looks to be very much like a wood uh plank siding it has a a grain type finish to it and on that instance we would ask you to turn it around and put it on the cuz you know a cedar Clapper is smooth and that's showing that imitation grain detracts from it right F but um I'm just saying that they make the manufacturer just for clarification here I I don't think they're talking about vinyl siding like the flimsy no no this is not this is tongue and groove the stuff that's seven in high you can't do that with that thin cheap vinal signing because it'll crinkle with every single temperature change okay this is a higher quality material than that and we can provide you with those specs yeah okay and this you know purchasing the land last year I am uh committed to making this quite a beautiful within siize home uh equal to my existing properties uh at Hy point and um I can assure you as a private residence it will uh only contribute to the neighborhood as an enhancement and I'm very committed to personally make this happen I'm sure uh the manufacturer of this material can give us cut sheets and also some samples so we can really see I I think you might be the first to be introducing material into our community that others might want if it really has the appearance and the durability of wood and looks exactly the same on new construction it might become a rather popular it's beenu it's been used has it the issue is this we use it like the term Kleenex we right we call or or Xerox you know a copy or is a Xerox like just like a yes yes um but we'll get cut sheets right to confirm that but but it's not the flimsy crinkly stuff you're envisioning it has depth and substance and and it actually has and it actually has a texture and but it can also have a texture but when I see just a white vinyl siding I I have a hard time staying in my seat no it it won't be it'll be very attractive I assure you questions or observations um your little Cupa on the top uh looks just like an afterthought is it one big window on each four sides of that there should be lines on there it would be a ventilating coua okay so like Louver yeah I I personally like to use a whole house exhaust fan and they work very e efficiently in the morning you run them for 2 hours and in the evening you run it for 2 hours I've worked many years in a factory so I'm not a huge fan of air conditioning the the uh lower retaining wall at the street that with the shrubs in front of that is also brick right yes the brick yes we plan plan to do that in Brick Mr tester that wall would be brick and it would start essentially 18 or 24 in inside of the of the side walk Edge yeah to give us a a shallow planting strip and you talked about angling the front making a sweep up on the front lawn um I I think the the height mitigation although to me it still looks High I appreciate your your desire to stay dry um because it's obviously important there but I do think you've you've taken the walls the first the outside wall and the peers um and and made the height mitigation from the front easier to look at so it doesn't quite thrust itself up and and what I also Envision although I'm not the artist I wish I were is is significant Landscaping in that front area continuing with um midheight shrubs back toward the front portion of that building ranges would look nice there but they're going to get too big they do it's just there will be other plac they'll they'll overwhelm your front your front lawn um would you consider using lattice work on those what those um what is should there be a landscape plan included with this if he's being extensive I would think yeah for the final approval we'll be glad to do that it is something we can Jim those are rooms under that porch so you couldn't just have lattice because it's bicycle storage and then trash cans on the other side under that porch depends on the what you see through the lattice right well there'll be some kind of it'll be ventilating it will have some ventilation ability my goal in that space underneath the front porch stands either we don't follow them I don't have to bring was to provide a finished material that had some rigidity uh to provide some security for the bikes that are under there I was envisioning vertical pieces of cedar or vertical pieces of a for lack of a better term but with a gap between them that allows that area to ventilate yet still provides the security if you guys want us to do lattice we would do that I wouldn't want to decrease your sense of protection I just think the lattice would look better but it might provide too much openness I mean it's it's not a room it's bicycle storage so depends on what you think about security obviously your vertical boards with smaller spaces give you better security to me the look would look better if it were lattice that's that's all I would point I would make so I only have two comments if you look at the uh proposed left elevation I really appreciate your intention to recess those garage doors and make them less visible from the street however what ends up resulting from that is a little bit more than a 28t free span in something that looks like brick would you consider I just sketched on here something would you consider putting a perer or two to make those stands look shorter so there's this massive 28t opening I don't have a problem one of the reasons I did this was Raising infants and not allowing them to run in the street and all for like when we arrive at the houseing kids that's not really IR relevant to what we're talking about here so I I love that that move to recess those garages it's just that 28 foot span with the whole well I plan on doing that with steel beam doesn't matter visually it looks like really overs scaled it it does yeah the difficulty that presents itself by introducing those two columns towards the center yeah it becomes a little bit more difficult for cars to make that turn into that door what I did was I I get it so I made that I'm drawing is what I'm drawing is the span there would be 11t clear or 114 to make it a Mason R Dimension so the garage doors are ninef Footers right yes yeah mhm so I mean you can mess with that I'm just saying at least one Pier two would be better I think one Pier would look look funky yeah I agree it's got to be two I'm sorry you're on proposed left elevation yeah I'm looking at the proposed left elevations that's so I think I think you're an accomplishing enough architect that you can manage that and I only have one other comment yeah be great something proportion like that would be the way to do it yeah if you need to make them tighter so that you have better turning radius so be it right okay I I don't have any objection to that structurally from the engineering perspective I click my heels at it yeah so it's not a structural issue it's an issue that um we can resolve for you by doing that I'm okay with it yeah for sure it's not a structal also will make it cheaper if you make those structural um the only other comment I have is if you look at the front elevation you've really gone a long way here to making this very very formalized Centric right on a central axis beautiful composition and you get up to the front porch and you arrive at the front door and there's no front door there's a reason it's a bathroom and if you look at the floor plans what I'm trying to figure out is how do you get into that bathroom I don't see a door what I was saying probably from the for once I thought of the same thing you do there there's I just said to both where the front door there's two reasons we I do plan to put a gate across the front because Oz raising infants you know we have our first family marriage and then I have two more I have a 22y old and I have a a 33y old so I'm going to have an expanse of God willing 15 to 18 years of children being raised and grown up so I don't think that's the issue the issue is that I don't want them going out the front door when there's no there's no front door there's no front door no put on for a reason well but there are there are dining room doors and bedroom doors right so I'm just wondering if there's a way you could rethink that even if it were just some faux doors so that it appeared as if it was some real doors there we can do that with the we can do faux doors and still get glass in there for Windows into the bathroom by picking a door that would have that glass panel how do you get into that bathroom by the way I don't see door there's a pocket door there but it looks like there's a piece of furniture in front of it Furniture is in front of the wall no that's to The Powder Room the bathroom's in front of it there's a pocket door there yeah you're right a little thing behind the furniture appears to be a pocket door I see yes got it okay the door is closed in what you're looking at is is it because you you need to just have a bathroom that you don't have a front door in the center and and separate your dining room from your I guess it's it's a bedroom that's why that that was part of it the other part was was we wanted to direct the people to coming into this building on the side on the side where they're going to be driving up and parking their cars so that's why we have the main stair that's coming up from the garage at that point can we put a faux door at the front on this very symmetrical building yes but what we then create is false advertis that I can see the UPS guy showing up and knocking on that door right big fan of doors you can't walk through so we would rather go with the the informality of the entrance at the lower level on the side of the building than advertise a fake door at the top that people are going to walk up the stairs and do exactly what you said I I employ a lot of people in the state of New Jersey I have to be very cautious about the access of my children around down here I'm being honest and I wanted to I wanted to protect um not easily beginning into our house I I do think when you get to the uh the presentation I'm telling yeah the nature of security when you get around to redoing the drawings I think you should show the gate that the applicant says is going to be there I'm sorry I was having trouble yeah I think you should show the gate that the applicant says is going to be there yes yes and it it will be a role that you know it's just it's just that a gate changes the front the front railing are going to be on the porch the gate will be closed the gate will not be closed all the time I got it Mr Testa thank you thank you sir are you talk about gated grade or up at the porch level porch level porch level PCH level yeah I'm sorry to have to share that but I have to be very close so so it'll just look it'll look like railings all the way across on a privacy level that would help a lot yeah comments um just uh to further on your your comment we tried this without the stairs in the front yeah it looked blank it it was screaming we need stairs even just for a decorative element do I have a motion I I think it's appropriate that Mr Becker makes the motion for the since he's got the uh detailed comments con approval we're going to have to write the conceptual approval letter I would move um to approve this conceptually with the one that I know of and folks please add to this if you think you need to actually two provisos one is the um adding two Piers to the 28t span on the left elevation as appropriate and second is the railing at the front to eliminate the idea that there is a a front door entrance did I miss anything guys Define the uh loued elements on the cupula that's number three for the exhaust Landscaping plan to be and the Landscaping plan to be part of final set back of the wall Landscaping with the setback of the of the wall and the elevation I think we need that four anything else the gate design the gate the gate it'll match the railing design but it'll be on so we would just ask that when you so this is not part of this motion but that documentation would be incorporated into your final submission once you get approval from zoning and plan yes yeah okay great so if John's finished making his motion I'll second it I am you got off easy I did motion by Mr Becka seconded by Mr Tesa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes and I would like to add that this time last year we had difficulty because we didn't have a street skate and you have gone overboard in making sure that that we had one in so many different ways and I would like to thank thank Mrs Decker for her uh holding me by the hair and smacking me in the face and say yes they want it give it to them and by Mr Testa telling me essentially politely shut up and give her what she wants well I would do that because pretty soon she's going to own the other half of the street so thank you all for your time thank you thank you and I'm looking forward to raising my ninth generation in this home and that's very important for our future the town I love yes thank you thank you next order of business B family LLC 805 Stockton Avenue block 1068 lot 20 it's a contributing property discussing about a pool driveways deck fence and Landscaping good evening Pam fine from fine architecture I'm here tonight representing the current owner Paula Murray uh she owns 8805 Stockton Avenue which is also the Bedford Inn it is a operating bed and breakfast they have 10 guest rooms um before you before we do that um M did you want to go over you have um you're appearing without your client tonight is there a reason why they couldn't be here tonight um I do not know the reason uh but I am here okay that's fine do you you have authority to present this application tonight yes um any conditions that we talk about tonight you have authority to you've been given authority to exhibit maybe flexibility with the board yes tonight okay yes um and understand that any resolution or conditions um your client would have to acknowledge those in writing prior to beginning construction on this so that they have to ratify what you put on the record tonight in their absence we are agreeable to that okay thank you good thank you okay so um as you know we are proposing uh site changes we're not proposing anything to the structure so that will remain as is uh the site changes that we are proposing uh include an inground swimming pool in the rear yard uh new pervious paaver driveways uh a new onr epe wood uh pool surround new fencing and new Landscaping so I'm going to first jump to the site plan um which shows the current property and where the current building sits and if you look towards the rear on the left side there's a uh an area of the the building that is recessed in and this lends itself to uh a possible pool location so we are proposing a pool um on the site plan which is 9' 6 by about 30 ft long so it is a generally small pool um and we do this to allow for uh ample parking uh off street so we are allowing for 11 spaces total for parking I am showing those triangles on the proposed site plan as those designated spots and I know as uh a requirement you want the parking set behind the front face of the building so that is why those areas are on the left we have six six spaces on the left and uh five spaces on the right um and to comply with coverages we are changing out the current driveway to either be a natural uh marble or a pervious stone and I have an example of the that material um in the packet as well uh towards the back we are showing the pool and then surrounding the pool in the back the left side and the front we have landscape proposed um also in addition to the landscape we have a new fence so the Landscaping we're trying to buffer views from uh Stockton Avenue so we don't want to see the pool we're proposing a uh new wood fence we're proposing Landscaping within that fence surround and then the pool will be located Central in that space and then towards the right we have a new wood uh ongr patio surrounding the right side of the pool um and that will be epe so I'll jump over to the selections uh we have a fence picked out here cedar wood as pictured below 6t high at the rear 4T High along the left side and the front and then as I said Landscaping will be um along the inside perimeter of that and then below that is a photo of an EP pool surround uh we'll have that wood surrounding the right side of the pool and then wrapping around the back of the proposed uh structure and then the second page is the driveway and walkway selection um if my client does not do the natural marble this would be the other option so it's the Oldtown permeable uh concrete pavers I think if that about sums it up if you have any questions I'd be more than happy to answer M I'm sorry just briefly that this is not uh going to the zoning board right we uh don't see any reason to ask for any variances so that is why we're asking for final approval tonight and I can see the design of the pool you got 10t setbacks yes sort of design around the zoning code correct exactly we we were aiming to comply with everything okay I'm sorry um the zoning officer came to me today and thought that this plan needed to go to the planning board for some reason maybe because it was multif family does that sound right to anyone here no we're not changing any uses or anything like that okay I'm not sure why he gave me that message but you're just adding a pool correct pool yes okay it operates as a bed and breakfast just I haven't heard anything andf yes yeah true the co the coverages are within within well within the required limits yes that's why we're changing the driveway otherwise we would keep it it's relatively new but we're not sure if it's pervious so we want to make sure that we do not exceed the lot coverage I must find my question was you know the place was built in 1875 it's a you know it's a contributing property it's in the heart of the uh historic district and you have an existing driveway on the left- hand side that is per perfectly appropriate with the red brick and I just wonder why you would you know consider going to a much more modern style that you would see in new construction as opposed to Something in the heart of the historic district yeah it all stems from the lot coverage requirements it has to be a pervious uh type of material um if they count red brick then we'd be more than happy to keep it but as far as I'm concerned that counts as 100% coverage the perious ability there comes from just the spaces in between the individual bricks yeah I can run that it would be the same or as far as I know every time somebody's proposed bricks they get the same thing as papers uh all the same approvals okay yeah I will definitely propose that to the client it might save it is you know it's appropriate and it's spelled out actually in our stand the appropriate materials and these new modern blocks are not how about the one thing that is not on you have to see that I don't know but it does say red brick it has um Greystone shells gravel but nothing like this okay well the one thing that is not on your materials list and you mentioned it is um marble and that isn't on your list at all oh uh it was we started with marble and then we saw the uh amount of sare footage so we were having an another op no but I'm what I'm saying is is if we do an approval here and I don't see marble and I'm going to approve whatever it is it's we're supposed to be doing whether it's brick or pavers but not marble so marbles out you do not approve of no no I'm saying but it's not listed here you saying you want to have the alternative that that is a possibility it would have been helpful if you just said it on the list that's that's the only point I'm making pamily your fence picture shows an appropriate looking fence for a six foot backyard fence you're not proposing that same appearance for a 4-ot fence are you um we we were actually uh just shorter but it'll have the finished post with the column uh top with the the crown topping be very much against the styles of fences throughout the town there was a quite a popular picket fence about 4 feet high that you'll see endless examples of it on Columbia Avenue okay that would be a much more appropriate fence particularly for that house and its period so you'd rather have a picket fence along the front yes okay I I you own agreement with that just this one just really looks like uh it was more geared towards yeah shielding the pool from Stockton well that if they Shield the pool with that in the back you know you still want the front yard to look like uh okay just enough to keep the neighbors for dogs from coming in on your property or yours own the property understood you'll see plenty of examples of that fence I probably have some saved from previous drawings yes in fact the uh the house that you're working on on Houston Street yes what's left of their fence is actually that design perfect yeah by the way that's a rather handsome house you're doing over there that was a monster of a project thank you other questions observations Pam would there be any lighting around the swimming pool in the back um that was not something we discussed but I will certainly suggest it gener or something like this we'd like to see some sort of a lighting plan within the pool or on in the surrounding area I mean actually there are some pools recently that have uh color changing LED lights in them and obviously that's not appropriate yeah yeah that's not what I was thinking it was uh more so like um safety Lighting on the wall of the structure possibly Illuminating the pool area but we can pick out some some pool uh lighting and yeah okay up it's downwards towards the services do I have a motion I'll make a motion that we approve the application with the change from Marble and pavers to Red Brick unless there's real problems at the Construction office on that and also that the fence uh continue around the front of the house following examples of that period of fences on col at Columbia Avenue and Hugh Street and was there another one here did you bring one up you have a lighting plan for the pool yeah and and lighting plans for the pool so this is this application is marked as final so so a number of these things are y soft we don't even have a specific fence yeah in the application so I I I don't know it's just it lingers to me between conceptual and final but final with conditions if we could articulate them I I don't know what kind of fence I'm approving for example just so we don't bring everybody back every time how about we approve this with those items presented to the review if that's possible I'm happy to do that we've done that before that's okay okay from my from my standpoint okay okay perfect so I moved and oh I'll second it oh okay it's like a duel here my second so it was a motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Testa for final with conditions Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you everybody thank you open to the public there's no public present scared so we'll close it to the public um discussion we we're adding one item you've been provided a copy um I buried it somewhere from Chris the the issue is the building code um is restricting flat roofs and um it's it's you have to have a 4 inch pitch um and minimum 4 inch pitch maximum a 12 inch pitch that's 412 yeah um and um that creates a problem for example um in the historic district with last week if you recall when we look at Bungalows Bungalows are our most difficult challenge because people want to add to them and if you recall we had a a ridge that was visible um from the front yard we were able to reduce that Ridge and when you look at the house the addition was per the um addition was perpendicular and you could see this addition clearly and um one of the ways to reduce it is to change the pitch of the roof but but that's a stretch I mean you got have to really restrict it when the easiest way to do it in my estimation would have been to introduce like a 4 foot three foot or a 4ot flat roof um where the ridge is and by definition then you reduce the height immediately and the visibility from the Street would be minimal we can't do that um because of the way the building code is set and so um what I would suggest is that in the historic district where the HPC is involved and we have individual involvement so we don't have a flat roof if you recall a while ago there was a a a walkway or something from from the house to a pool house or a garage and it had a flat roof and um as result of that there was this change so what I would propose that we do is propos to city council that um the the code be changed from the four 12 pitched and minimum um that it be changed in the historic district where the HBC is involved where we have time to deal with individual design and um it comes before us all the time we have the expertise to to provide design elements that would allow additions to these smaller properties historic properties contributing properties that by definition are difficult to accommodate current families so um when we first looked at this I thought also that the 412 pitch was a problem with mansard roofs but in fact the mansard roof is excluded so we don't have to worry about um U the mansard roof we're really focused on small contributing properties where people could put additions on the back and if we introduce a a flat portion of the top it would be totally not visible the flat portion it would still appear like a ridge so um I I think we need the flexibility at the HPC to make that Jud these are these are existing code design standards what I'm reading here is the law yes at this point yes aside from the technicalities of the specifics that you're talking about Warren I I have some difficulty in Reading language that says things like and shall be approved by the planning board and shall be approved by the planning board um that to me creates an issue about um does that reduce or deny the jurisdiction of the HPC to work on applications in the historic district to me there's a there's a potential conflict or an ambiguity um it it isn't something that I think Chris ought Express an opinion on now but the wording of this to me has a number of potential conflicts um with the functions of the way the this board works thises the planning board gets its advi its advice on streetscape and Architectural Matters from the HPC so I don't I don't I see what you're pointing to which is that you know the plan shall be be approved by the planning board but implied in that language is the the review process that we went over twice tonight which is that people come in for conceptual that advice is communicated to the planning board and then they come back for final and they have there's it's not just advisory it's a strong HPC commission that means our decision making has the force of law as well as any other development regulation so so you read this as saying that the planning board approval is something that has to the word guided is wrong I guess but is is shaped by the HPC approval inevitably our our our uh feedback HPC approval is a standard boilerplate condition in any approval issued by those boards it ends up in the resolutions it ends up in the um in the review letters that are sent out to the applicant so I'll I'll give you that there's a lot of overlap but I've said this countless times but the development process in Kate May is a vend diagram so there's HPC there's shade Tre commission planning board zoning it's not oh HPC said I'm good so I'm good it's you have to you have to go along to each stop along the the train tracks and get approval until you get to so so the result would have to be approval by the planning board but it couldn't exclude approval by the HPC no no except that of course the our decisions are appealable to the zoning board but not the planning board right since we always make rational and well-considered and reasonable decisions I suppose they'll never be reversed I just didn't want to have a conflict built into the ordinance and the way we function with respect to our design standards that's no try and I think that when Warren brought this up to me and we were talking about it preliminarily you know the idea that sort of loosening the reins on roof pitch at least in the historic district to allow that type of problem solving to happen at this table and maybe at a review committee meeting I can see the benefit the net benefit to that of loosening that because the HPC has its own standards in terms of streetscape so the goal of that discussion may not be to say you know this this addition is a nogo because of you're trying to fit in an addition that comports with the historic design standards it's not some Mega structure on the back of a of a building in order to accommodate livable space to have that flexibility and there's some expertise here that I think if the city were to change that provision it wouldn't be some Lawless kind of discussion so we we offer them an amendment to the existing language is that is that what we're doing gonna do I think the concept that uh the chairman was was considering was this this could be the do default rule this could Remain the default rule for everywhere else that's not the historic district because recognizing that this board has expertise when it comes to things like Ruth Pitch and streetscape and why don't we leave that flexibility at this board um and we look at all of them right we you look at it and then that would provide you the flexibility I look forward to seeing what language we use in it I mean got to got to say something right so procedurally with this just be a recommendation from us do we need to have a a motion to make that recommendation I think if you want to Def frame it um the the recommendation to to council would be to consider a very modest and simple ordinance amendment that would that would leave this applicable for everywhere else but the historic district and leave that determination of appropriate roof pitch to this board in the historic district makes perfect sense do you want to compose that motion for us I just I think I just did perfect Bingo well since you can't make the motion and I can I'll I'll make the motion second motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Mr Tesa yes Miss pagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you um next item up is the HPC bylaws update you you can't ask me to comment on this two months in a row but uh you have and I would only say that I would ask all of you as I said in the last meeting please have a quick through run through and if Judy will make them available to you have a run through the bylaws note any things that seem as a problem or question to you let me know about them before I begin my adventure of revising those um bylaws and then putting a draft over to Cor so that's the update so the issue is after all this time we're going to distribute the existing bylaws read them and if you have any comments pass them on to me please they were distributed weren't she sent them out June 26th okay so okay and so the idea then is read them mark them up and send them back and and let's let's say if you have any comments um let's let's have your comments by the by the end of August okay okay um next item is the HBC leason position we talked about that we approved it um at our last meeting and the question is where where is that I think I can update the status of that uh status it is that uh I did I did a draft of a rather long-winded resolution as unfortunately you know I do um but it's in Chris's hands he has a few minor comments to make on it um he's going to show me those things and then we would have a a definitive form ready for the next meeting okay so well you'll distribute to the members of the HBC will'll have a chance to review it and it'll be a discussion item at our next meeting correct right um is there anything else to come before this August group I would just like to bring one thing up that you know I was driving along Lafayette Street and and can't help but missing a very large addition to a contributing property there and I'm actually taken back by the the massing of this project and I actually called Judy I said Judy did we approve this and she said yes you did and I think in some of these projects where particularly going going to a contributing property and they have all these buildings being added to it maybe we should require a 3D rendering so we could probably get a better feel of what it's really going to look like in real life as opposed to just on paper so if I can if I can respond briefly well that's one but there's none just like Dr Palin yeah so most I've gotten a lot of push back as Mr Chadwick pointed out he didn't he doesn't have a program to do that um most of the Architects don't they claim to me it's very very expensive to get I still insist they have to render something for you to see scale I agree with you too that would be great it just I'm not sure if it's feasible at this time for the archit like a little small scale model made out of cboard or the problem that that has been expressed to me as as Judy be began to discuss is is if you farm that as an architect if you farm it out it's like $3,000 and to have it to have it done and um most of the Architects don't have the software to do it themselves so you're adding quite a bit of an expense and for the most part it's probably not necessary we we do have the example the house you're talking about um I don't remember that coming before us I it it's really quite large but um which which house is it a blue heron much of that didn't come before us when it got started as I remember it did it did twice oh absolutely yes St James so I I think I think your point is well taken but I think what we have to be is just a little bit more diligent and and we have standards we have to follow those um on additions like that we should yeah take some time and I I think we could ask for some perspective even even if it's hand rendered from an architect to have some idea um plus I I think evidently you know it gets late at night or something and we approve some things because I must admit I'm I'm part of it and I see some things that are being done and yeah and I asked myself did did we approve I I seem to recall not too long ago Miss laoren came in and and had a hand drawn 2D you know without because sometimes those streetcape photos have the perspective wrong and and that may be imprecise but it's something that the board can use as a comparison I think Mr Chadwick tried to do that tonight as best he could so but I think we just have to be more diligent into looking into these things how big can it potentially be Jake did you go back and look at the application as a followup just because you were so startled by it what was that again did you go back and look at the application um actually no but I you might want you might want to do that just to sort of sort of see how how it is that we were surprised well you know just example of the that Cottage that we just approved you know the with with we're just talking about the pitchel um you know the the picture of the one that's in the book on 54 maybe or something you know that that scale looks looks you know relatively reasonable going back but if you look at the one that came to us just over the last couple of months the original drawing that was shown to us he actually had it and I happened to see it as he was presenting the materials that was approved by this committee whatever it was two years ago yeah I think the the point of elevation of the viewer at that was very different than what he showed us like two months ago it was it was very different and so in effect that first look at it the first time we saw it two years ago I I wasn't here but it it it looked reasonable where I think if you look at it and he said it was no no different no different at all than what was presented two years ago it was very different I mean those two drawings if You' have put those two drawings side by side you'd have been surprised well um and I think it was all a matter of where you put the view at it you know it made it look when you use onedimensional perspective like that that that brings that roof all the way forward when the one that we just reduced it a little bit was 60 feet back from the sidewalk and so when that perspective that that Ridge drops further and further but I I I think we just have to be a little bit more careful we have another property on Washington Street we don't want to pick on people so I won't mention the address but I remember we all agreed and in fact had positive comments about a a a bump out or a porch on the side and in fact when you see it in real life it's it was startling and um you know and I I I I've framed over a hundred houses on my way to undergrad in grad school I think I have a an inkling of what something looks like but I must admit I I was shocked at that and I I would think maybe maybe other people asking about I I asked did we did they that get approved like that yeah and we did and it's well done it is it looks nice well but it is proportionately it's I I I I Rely I rely on the multi eyes Theory and and that is that when we all do our homework and look carefully one or two of us do manage to pick things out and that's that's usually why I think we do so well I mean some things get by but it doesn't get by all of us all the time that's that's my Approach just one other thing what is our plan moving forward with zoning regards the trailer storage ordinance you mean planning board planning planning board yes I did notes I listened to that and so did I a couple of things um on the agenda it's presented I I wrote it down master plan consistency review of ordinance -224 an ordinance establishing limitations and they were conf confused they didn't know where it came from why they were looking at it I mean I could imagine if I was at the end of a meeting and have this lengthy legal a and I didn't know why I was looking at it I don't think I'd be very generous but fair Chris had submitted something and they I think eventually after it was torn apart they they found the email where I explained where both of them came from and and what the context was but I mean yeah I you know what at the end of the day just like this board it's a it's it's volunteers coming in and um you know I to the extent there was confusion about that I think I think the professionals and I I put myself at the lead of this I mean I try to make it as clear as possible where it's coming from and if they don't take it up it it's um one thing but that was not how I would have liked the discussion to go but um I think substantively they did pick up on something that should not have come a surprise to anybody and I don't think did which is that parking is a major concern for the planning board and that inevitably is going to run up and conflict with anything that this board might be prioritizing in terms of streetscape now where in the historic district the streetcape is going to Prevail because that from a master plan standpoint both historic Pres a streetcape and parking concerns are both in there but in in the historic district I think the things that we're talking about like the side you know side view parking and and eliminating those those are going to Prevail but what the the thing that I think they latched on to um is the the idea of that concept expanding outside of the the historic district so that's that's what I picked up on it yeah that was clearly what they were finding taking I mean true but they called it overreach well they can call it what they want but but I mean the the idea the historic district is significant in this city and there isn't I don't think there's a desire on the part of people to have a historic district where we re where we recognize and appreciate those values and the rest of the city that turns out to be Sea Isle I mean that's not the OB it shouldn't it shouldn't be the object of of policy makers in this city obviously the voters can speak to that issue but I think we're trying to spread spread some good outside the historic district I I will say though that it seems to me um a lot of the things that come out of this commission and go to other boards particularly planning deserve a softer landing and maybe better coordination timing present the problems though um is there was no one from the HPC in the past I would get a note that something was on the agenda agenda I I didn't know it was on the agenda I presume it it was my burden to figure that out or find out but normally I would have had a a text message or an email or something and and um and one or two of us could have been there and that would have even if it had not been successful for the reasons of this whole parking problem I think the landing would have been a lot softer so I would mention to not blaming anyone but I would ask in the future when we have we have things going to planning if if Judy or Karen or or Chris could let me know so we could coordinate a a seemed to be that was the the end of their meeting they said next let's bring back a representative from the HPC so we can understand this better right so they're probably going to get hold of you soon and there seem to be quite a bit of confusion they kept saying where did this come from where did this come from but that's again again that I I don't put the blame on anybody I think they tried the best they could to process that but what I think what the chair just said I think makes a lot of sense because you know to have somebody sit there and explain hey we got two things this is what we're trying to do this is where it's coming from that's going to be received a lot differently than here's this big document with small Point print and it's a bunch of legal Le you know so I think a lot of that will be alleviated with this proposed liaison position that we're proposing uh let's let's be clear um the the the focus of where I thought we were going was really not inter board it was this board with respect to the city Administration so so I think oh that's I mean you know I'm willing to work hard but I don't think that that I should be I should be monitoring all of the reaction relations between us and planning and zoning uh I think I think we need you you know the message was that we need to work closer and better with the city Administration there a lot of things they can do better there are things we can help them do better but I think this board to board thing is really not what I envisioned was in the scope of what we were talking about and and and but it's true we do need to be informed I think we need to Advocate when something goes to another board I think it needs to have and it's an HPC matter I think we need to introduce it we need to advocate for it one of the things that Stephen made a point of when we were working on the design guidelines was that he sits on the zoning board as well as the HBC of his town now we don't have a steveen here a young ambitious knowledgeable architect they do they're lucky um when I listen to the conversation of the planning board I thought well wait a minute where's Zach where where's the uh representative who's on the environmental commission I mean the two people who might have been most amenable to that memo weren't at the planning board meeting that night and neither were any of us so I think the problem of parking in K May is it's a problem that's been kicked around and created a lot of animosity for 50 or 60 years I mean this is a complicated problem and for them to just receive something that looks like legal ease from a group of us who have the reputation of being killjoys not not the best PR move right but but it was this it was a surprise to the leadership here that it's coming up and and when it does come up we should advocate for it in the right way we need to Advocate not to have cars parked on front Lawns not to have cars cluttering up our historic district um but we've got to figure out the town needs a problem a problem solver and it it needs to be a coordinated also related to that is the fact that um the the chairman will be presenting the historic district map situation first to us and then to the planning board that's a that's a place where we can rehearse how this should should go I mean all these problems are hot buttons easier to solve if things like that can be handled at the beginning of meetings so unlike uh Pamela fine who sat through all this and then finally gets the chance to do a 15minute presentation you know and and some some of the some of these might even instead of putting it in the last five minutes of a meeting where everybody's asleep and angry and whatever might might be an idea to just say let's have a special meeting and discuss those topics well part of it was also it got introduced before the solicitor read your memo so they were already having discussion about it without the introduction that you had written Chris so that's that's okay it wasn't that good anyway but you know I I think the I like the the face Toof face interaction explaining it and having somebody that is understands where it's coming from and be able to answer questions like why is that in there and there's no answer to that because the the all the context and all that discussion that we had was not able to be kind of flushed out with them I had no idea that it was that it was on the agenda so and in the past you know I I've got notes so I don't know what happened there but it you know it passed here went on and as I said I would have expected something and then we would have grouped a couple of us to go and explain that well I must say on that on that recording once it was introduced by the solicitor he was very careful to present it in in the way that it was written and it yeah but he's but he's not our man correct so we need to be Advocates and he actually had some sympathy for us too he did yeah so in in conclusion um would you like would you like to be placed on the next planning board agenda would you like to do you know what's the what's the conclusion what's the action plan for planning board um no we let's figure that out at our next page this is not the time to do to discuss that we we have a meeting coming up in August um we don't want to wear out our welcome we have to I want to manage this a little bit okay was see in conclusion maybe a step for a motion for adjournment sounds like all in favor hi