So look at you all clean cut up the huh my once a year I get sh the other night I sat on my front porch I was dealing with a lot of um contentious issues and I I listened to
probably six times David Crosby's almost cut my hair loud because you know my hair used down here. Yeah. Back when I had hair. Yeah. So there have been so many times I've been wanting to send you little bits of music I'm holding back.
Send it over. Did you like the Ben Susan piece? Yeah. Yeah. He's a good amazing player. I really like the guy you sent me too. Yeah, John Martin. Yeah, John. I never heard of him. He like that's new to me. A lot of like new newer artists have
been influenced by him. A lot of that like finger tappy type of stuff. He's got some really like ethereal acoustic guitar sounds that a lot of people have copied. Well, I think we're ready. Are we all ready, folks? Um Yogi's not coming.
Jim's not here and Yogi's not here, though. Okay. We'd like to call to order the City of Kate May Historic Preservation Commission. It is August 18th and we are commencing at 6:01 p.m. In compliance
with the Open Public Meetings Act of 1975, adequate notice of this meeting has been provided. If any member has reason to believe that this meeting is being held in violation of this act, they should state so at this time.
Hearing none, if you guys would all join us in the pledge of allegiance, please. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands, one nation,
indivisible, with all. Brian, can we have a roll call, please? Mr. Becker here. Mr. Ta is absent. Mr. Carol. Miss Pagno here. Miss Wilson Strick here. Mr. Stevenson
here. Mr. Hamron here. Mr. Johnson is absent. Mr. Herz is absent. Thank you. So before we begin, we have two alterations to tonight's agenda. The second item on under new applications,
the city of Kate May at 801 807 um Madison Avenue to replace remove and replace existing gazebo has been removed from our agenda. One item to add which will be at the end during discussion after the public meeting is an agenda item regarding the adaptive and
regenerative approach to historic preservation. And we have a visitor here this evening who'll be making a presentation about that proposal. Okay. So, you've all had a chance to review the minutes from our last meeting, July 21st.
Yes. Like to entertain a motion to approve those minutes, please. So moved. Second. Moved by Miss Wilson Stritic. Second by Mr. Carol. Brian. Mr. Carol. Yes. Miss Pagno. Yes. Miss Wilson Strick.
Yes. Mr. Stevenson? Yes. Mr. Hamarind? Yes. Mr. Becker? Yes. Thank you. You also had a chance, I hope, to review the payment of bills submitted by Chris Gillan Schwarz Law LLC. Yes. Like to entertain a motion to
approve payment of that bill. Mot moved by Mr. Carol. Seconded. Seconded by Jake. Um all in Oh, I'm sorry. Roll call vote, please. Mr. Carol, yes. Miss Bagno, yes.
Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes. Mr. Hamron. Yes. Mr. Becker. Yes. Thank you. We have two resolutions for ratification this evening. One is the city of Kate May 210 Beach Avenue block 1000 lot 20 resolution 202527.
And the second is Terraski at 925 Corgi Street block 1093 lot 12 resolution 202528. I would like to just mention before we review these or ratify these that the um the Terraski applicant came before us at
the review committee and gave us the detail that we asked for about the elevation and it was approved in review. So with that said, I'd like to entertain a motion to review or to ratify these resolutions, please. So move.
A second. Moved by Mr. Carroll, seconded by Miss Wilson Stritic. Brian, Mr. Carol, yes. Miss Pagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes. Mr. Hamron, yes. Mr. Becker, yes. Thank you.
For applications that were approved andor denied in review, we have the list here. We'd like to entertain a motion to ratify those approvals in review. So moved. Second. Moved by Miss Magno, seconded by Mr. Carol.
Brian, please. Mr. Carol, yes. Miss Bagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes. Mr. Hamron, yes. Mr. Becker, yes. Thank you. Well, welcome everyone. Now that we've got all that sort of business stuff out of the way, we can start to listen to
applications. But you may recall that at the beginning of this year, we held with between all of us as commissioners a series of alignment workshops. And at the very first one, we spent the entire four hours aligning around what the purpose, the core purpose of HPC's work
is. And we came up with a purpose statement that defines that work. So, in order to set the tone in the room, I'd like to ask Janice if she would please to read that to us. Okay. The purpose of the Historic Preservation Commission is to serve as a catalyst for
guiding and valuing Kate May's historical, cultural, and natural resources in ways that inspire and unite our community to steward these resources for the benefit of all so that present
and future generations continue to express the unique quality of life we share in this place we love. Thank you, Janice. Okay, moving on to our applications. Our first agenda item is the Washington Street Mall bid. This
is uh Washington Street Mall signage that is being proposed. If you could please state your name. Thank you. Paul Dietrich, uh city manager, city engineer for KA City. The floor is yours. Thank you. Uh we've been working with
the um Washington Street uh mall improvement uh district and uh I passed out in this not part of the application package. I passed out a uh a little handout that you should have at your table that has two pictures on it that kind of orients you at the end of the
Washington Street Mall at Perry Street. And you can kind of see like at the base of the flag pole is the area where there's a lot of shrubbery and there's actually a bench on the inside. Well, the Mall improvement district have on
occasion has put up a I'll say a seasonal sign that says Washington Street Mall and use it as like a photo op. Well, that temporary sign has turned into a permanent location and it just doesn't I
think fit the the aesthetic objectives of the Washington Street Mall in K City. Um, so I'd asked them to kind of come up with, hey, let's look at putting a permanent sign at that location to make it, you know, I mean, I think it was important to identify on that end of the mall, you
know, that that you are at the Washington Street Mall. It's a pretty popular location to go in K City and there's really no ID signage that kind of denotes that. So that was the intent of of it. um as we started looking at it. So, the pictures that that I
included with the application kind of showed two mock-ups of the sign. uh one with kind of you know a green background with white lettering and the other is just kind of the reverse image of that um image and and in and as I was working with our public works director instead
of having them mounted on posts or you know we were going to you know use those same kind of ballard finials and mounted on something like that we got looking at and instead to use the I'll say the uh planters the bench planters that are
down throughout the mall and create a bench planter at that location and then set the sign inside of that. Um, and we felt that that would be more appropriate. It also helps with a little more of our safety and creating another additional barrier at the head of the
mall to prevent vehicular traffic from entering the mall. Um, from a size perspective, if you look in the picture, it kind of shows where all the greenery that they have. That's about the size of what the uh planter would be. still has plenty of access for pedestrians to get
in and out of the mall. And uh I just we just think that it's going to be a more appropriate setting and and base so to speak for the sign. Okay. So since this appears to be fairly straightforward instead of going around
the table one by one, does anybody have any questions for Mr. Dietrich? I do. Is are you saying, Paul, that the new sign is it that little oval right next
to the the post? No. No. In that picture, that's a Google map picture. The It didn't have that temporary sign. Okay. Uh up there. The temporary sign's probably a a a 3x4 sign. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's and it's actually a fabric
banner type sign. So, it's not even a a formal sign. And they've got it on 2x4, like a little 2x4 frame that's sitting there. So, it really is not attractive or, you know, appealing at that end of
the mall. So, that's Okay. Thank you. Yep. and you said a bench. Well, I I think the like the planters that are within the mall, which is essentially a seating bench, you know, we would we would create a it's almost
like a 10 by10 seat bench around that and then have that inside of that. So, not only would it provide more additional seating, but um I think provide a better location for that because if you notice the the the vegetation they put out there, it's just
seasonal and they put them out in the in the containers. This way, it'll have a more permanent location to have greenery at that location. So, it kind of adds has a second benefit of providing some landscape at that end of the mall. That's and that's
That's that's what when I was putting this together when it was public works we we got to I didn't really want to bring just that sign on two posts to the board with you know with that look. Yes. I don't know where they that's like I got to work with them on that language.
I think that we may change that, but when you they've used that language on their social media platforms and stuff, I may have to talk with them to see if we can't maybe switch it around to what
appropriate language we've been using. Yes. Yes. Correct. I I agree with Tom about the green. Okay. Attitude. The one thing I would say is is the words u it's Washington. That's fine. but then Street Mall, which I
think is under underneath that in really really tiny print. If that's the case, um I I think anybody driving by isn't going to see that it's the Washington Street Mall and what you want and that's what you want to highlight as the destination, I assume. Right.
Any other comments or questions? I just have one and that is have you folks worked on the size and dimensions uh height, width, depth of the stone planter yet? We are matching the existing planters that are out there. Okay. So, as far as the height and the the the
dimensions of that, we're going to use the exact planter dimensions that are out there. I believe it was a 10x10. Okay. Planter. Is everybody comfortable with that? Hearing no further questions or comments. like to entertain a motion for approval. I think we've all agreed that
we prefer the green background. Green background. Is that accurate, everyone? Yes. Great. And the size of the street mall. I'll I'll work on the There's some lettering and wording on that, but that's great.
So moved. Do I hear a second? I'll second. Approval moved by Miss Pagno, seconded by Mr. Carol. Brian, roll call vote, please. Mr. Carol, yes. Miss Pagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson,
yes. Mr. Haming, yes. Mr. Becker, yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. And all the work you do. It's a lot. I would ask for the the gazebo. I know you have those applications. If you
could collect those up and Yes, Brian. And give them to Brian at the end of the meeting just in case I end up bringing back some of that application in the future. I don't have to recreate the whole package. Just maybe revisions. If everybody could please pass me the documentation, I'll just give it to Brian. We can save it for next month.
The gazebo the gazebo application that was next on agenda that the second one the second one that we're tableabling here. I got Madison right here. That way I can save a few trees the next time we bring it back. For the next time you're back. Perfect. Okay. Maybe next month. Maybe.
Depends. Depends. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Moving on. Next on our agenda is Dempsey at 665 Hugh Street. Good evening. Thank you for being here. If you could just please state your name and your address.
Miss Dempsey, could you just turn on your microphone? There's a lot of guidance here, but man, I'm Joan Dempsey at 665 Hugh Street. This is my second appearance before you all. I was here last October and got conceptual approval for our
outdoor shower. You directed me to the zoning board and also to submit an extensive landscaping plan, which we did. And we received approval from the zoning board in June of this year. And so we're back here hopefully to get
final approval for our outdoor shower. So my only question for you before we get started is is has anything changed from the conceptual review that you submitted? The only thing that changed the zoning uh board asked us to make sure that the
electrical I'm sorry the plumbing lines did not go through the shed because I think they were concerned about an ADU an auxiliary uh unit. And then the other thing was they asked for a little more detail on the um the pan
below the shower to make sure that it met their requirement for brown water, but that was it. They were actually quite complimentary of the plan. So do you have a desire to make a presentation? I do not. Okay, that's it.
So again, uh rather than going around the room, does anybody have any questions or comments about this application? I'll make one comment. Very nicely done. Thank you. Very welcome. I appreciate your support very much. So, hearing um no other questions or comments, like to entertain a motion to
approve this application. This is final. Yep. I will make that motion. I will second it. Moved by Mr. Carol, seconded by Miss Wilson Strick. Brian, please. Mr. Carol, yes. Miss Pagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes.
Mr. Hammer, yes. Mr. Becker, yes. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Dempsey. Thank you to you and the board members. I appreciate it very much. Okay, moving on.
Next application is Mortimer at 448 West Perry Street. Front and rear decks, railing, steps, window, garage door. Good evening, folks. How are you? Good evening. Wonderful. If you could please state your names in this case, your role in the project and your address, please.
Okay, I'll go first. Pamela Fine. I am the project architect. I'm at 179 County Road, Cape Main Courthouse. Uh Michael Mortimer, 448 West Perry Street. Uh owner, representative of the owner. Just to make one thing clear, this is a
contributing property and uh this is for conceptual review. Is that correct? That's correct. We will need variances. Great. Floor is yours. Okay. Um, so as you may recall, we were here last month. Um, we decided to table it and address some of the concerns
about the design of that front deck and stair. Um, we took everybody's suggestions. Um, we decided the best approach was to pull that deck back to align with the front of the house. So, we no longer have that two-foot
projection as before. And then I also took John's advice and we um played with a few ideas with potentially covering it. Um so uh we started with some sketches, some actual solid built roofs.
Uh a roof that actually turned that corner and connected to the back. Uh there's a a dormer. Um tried to unite those roofs. We spoke with Mike Spielder. Uh really went through the motions. Um, we decided that that
approach wasn't really aesthetically pleasing. Um, the way it interacted with the existing main gable, um, that front lower slope, uh, hip roof on that front porch wasn't really appealing. Um, so we
pivoted a bit and did a pergola instead. And um you'll see in the plan sheets I'll jump to P3 we have all the proposed elevations and you'll see that pergola now um on the left side corner and it basically wraps
around that that corner. We still have the stair in the same spot as we previously uh proposed um but I feel like from the front it actually looks charming. So we decided to to proceed and ask for your approvals based on
that. Thank you. So we will go around the room here. Start with you please. Lorraine. Sure. Based on what you proposed originally and then I'm glad that you're pulling it back um to you know meet the
front of the house. Um, I've walked by this a few times, even focusing on it a little bit more just because it came in to see us last month. Um, I I I like the appearance of this. I like the pergola. Um, I know Kevin, I think, was looking
at doing something similar to that. So, I I think the um and and it is an odd front elevation, no doubt, but um I wish we had pictures of what it looked like previous because we really did look we scoured the
internet and were we were left with nothing. But I I I I think the the appearance of this um matches the streetscape and and really matches the house so much better. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Carol. Percolos and their adjoining
patios are traditionally something that's featured in the yard, sideyards, backyards, things like that. Little place to let the vines hang over and get some shade on it. Uh not definitely connect it to the house. I would kind of
object on it, but that but that's just kind of more of a personal opinion and if the rest of the people are comfortable with that, I will certainly go along with it. Great. Wilson Strick. Um, I think it's an improvement. It
looks good. Um, I agree. It's a, as I said before, an enigma. And I've done a lot of digging around in the archives, and I haven't seen any pictures of this house the way it might have been at some earlier day. So, what
I see in your proposed elevations has a nice feeling of symmetry and order, which is part of what we love about historic buildings. The good materials looks good to me. Thank you, J. I have no comment other than thanks for
your alterations on this. I think it's it's very nice. Uh, it's light and it's very attractive. It's very creative. But I I like it very much. Thank you. Um I I think the last meeting I objected
to the idea of a roof um and the and you were the one I think had proposed u you know doing something like that partly because if you look at the at the property report there's no suggestion of that and the house is an unusual house in this in in the sense it doesn't
really fit to anyone's style. Maybe a little bit of a you know like almost like a fisherman's cottage or something. Um, uh, I I'm actually with Tom. I I don't, you know, as much as I think that pergola sort of adds something to that, I I I also would come back and say
there's nothing on that property report that suggests that. And I and I don't think we should be thinking about that. I was kind of thinking, you know, is it okay to put just like a railing around it that you can hang like plantings from? Because it's it's such a a green space in there, too. Um, I might I'd be
okay, I think, with that. But I I think a pergola is not first of all, it's not typical of a historic house, and secondly, it's not part of the structure itself usually. Great. Um, I have to disagree with my
two colleagues. I find the pergola really quite delightful. um particularly with regard to it creating a a sequence that's spatial for the arrival and it sort of uh scales down the mass of the problem with this house is it's just one
huge uninterrupted mass so it breaks down that corner so it's not quite so intrusive on the street and I and I think that it was a quite a creative solution because getting a roof on there would have been as you know and struggled with very challenging
so um I think we're ready to move on to asking if there's anyone who would like to make a motion. So moved. I'll second it. And I also want to mention that a pergola is reversible. Yes.
So from a preservation standpoint, it's not that big of a leap. Good point. And I I I applaud your response to all the comments on a very challenging project. So all right. So, it's so moved by um Miss Bagno, seconded by Miss Wilson Strick. Roll call vote, please.
Mr. Carol, I will vote yes. Uh, one reason is because I don't change my opinion, but I'm not going to argue with an architect and it does have a pretty major tree right in front of where you're seeing that.
Miss Bagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes. Mr. Hamron. Yes. Mr. Becker. Yes. Thank you. It's unanimous. Thank you. Thank you guys.
Thanks for coming to see us. Yeah. Okay. Moving on, please. Next on the agenda is, and I may mispronounce this name, so I apologize. Hobb. Is that accurate? Hob. Okay. At 301 Beach Avenue. Um, this
is for a new house. Yes. So, if you could please introduce yourselves, what's your role in the project and your address, please? Uh, Chris McDul. Yep. Uh, 721 New England Road, Kate May. Uh, I'm a builder and we're partners on it,
our family's partners partnership. So, does that mean you're representing the owner or you are an owner? I'm representing my wife's an owner. So, Okay. Yeah. Representing. We all right? Yes. Okay. I'm Jared Blake. Um, architects 36
Street Philadelphia. Sir, if you could just turn on your mics. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Green button on your mic. I apologize. There you go. Got to say that all over. Okay. The floor is all yours, gentlemen. And for the record, Mrs. McDool is here.
Yeah, she's here, too. Yeah. If you need to ask her anything, she welcome. All yours. All right. Uh so the plan is to build a three-story uh single family home
uh with six bedrooms. I believe you all should have the plans there. Um I just have one question. The um the the adjacent lot is it remains a vacant lot. It's not part of this property. Yes.
Okay. Yeah, we have two lots there. Exact same sizes, too. Yes. Uh yeah, with the same size, one corner lot. You have a smaller building area because you have lot the 20 and 20.
Okay. So, we can simply make comments based on what you submitted. Is that correct? Yep. Okay. So, Kevin, how about if we start with you this time, please? Um, well, first of all, I think the the appearance and design is nice. I think it looks good from a streetscape standpoint, and it fits.
Kevin, could you please microphone? Thanks. I I think the u the design and appearance of the structure really does look very nice. It does fit with some of the adjacent properties. So, I I don't particularly have any any issues with the streetscape. Um, one question. Since
there's six bedrooms, is there a parking challenge with this? Um, no. We have uh you there's enough room for at least five spots. How many? Sorry. At least five parking spots. And you know, you can't park in front of the building. You have you have parking. We have it goes all the way back to a garage area. Okay.
You have parking in the garage and you'll have another I think we only need three for to conform with parking. I think that's shown on HPC4 of the plans. Oh, yeah. I didn't see that originally.
Okay. Um, I don't really have any comments about it at this point. I know we we've seen this already. So, B, um, my only question is the lot to the
right. Is that part of this property? We subdivided it. Yes. Oh, okay. That's all because I just Yeah. Yeah. was it was uh not in relation to the size of Okay, thanks. That was my only question.
I I think it's a beautiful design and according to our standards, it does truly fit into the fabric of this historic streetscape in town. So, nice design. Thank you. Yeah, and I was very um pleased to see
the rendering. It's dimensional. It's not one of those bad things that made me go, "What is it going to look like?" No, it's it's um it's a very elegant do like all cedar shake and you know to
you know to fit in with a beach town. Thank you Tom. I'd like to see some more detail on measurements uh of a lot of your trim on this to you know you're coming on to the American shingle style
uh very popular up at the north end of the island and if you look at those houses up there uh the house not only looks heavy but everything about the trim the overhangs the eaves the railing systems and all uh come with that nice
heavy feeling as as well. Um, I'm looking at your front porch railing system, which looks uh very weak and minuscule in comparison to the elements of the house. And uh Jerry, you haven't
been with us before, but although the rules say you can't have anything but larger than a 4inch opening uh between your ballastrades, we generally say we require a least a 2in ballastrade and no
more than three inches between them. and try to get a nice heavy top rail as you would see up at that end of town to really make that uh that whole house blend in with it. There's there lots of examples of that
around town. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. Um I take it that the third floor front of the house with a roof over it is still an open air room on all three sides. Yes. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Will that have weather
drops or anything that uh it's not going to be a multi multi-season area that will have uh panel glass windows that go up in that or anything? No, we're not planning on anything like that. If anything, you could add some
screens that come down to screen it off for bugs or something like that. They have uh screen systems that go up and down. Mhm. If you know that's up to the if uh the owner wants, you know, if somebody wants to add something like that, but nothing nothing. There's no plans of doing anything like that.
But bugs don't fly too well down there in that. You'd be surprised. Um okay. I I I this is a prelimin preliminary. This is final. This is final. Mhm. Um I would like to see then if we
approve it that details be presented to the Tuesday meeting committee on the railing systems that you know really you want a beefy bring bring yeah bring bring a drawing in that shows exactly the size of these elements. We use a lot of bent tax
rails. A lot of the they're usually like inch and 3/4 ballister or something like that or and and they can be pretty beefy. Whatever. We we'll dig one up and uh represent, you know, bring it to you guys. Overall, it's a very good looking project. Thank you. Thank you.
Yes, I think the TX rails you can adjust them accordingly. Yeah, you Yeah, you build on site. So, just the detail I think that's all you're looking for is that for where you can minimize the spacing between spacing. Mhm. Uh 3 in spacing, whatever. Yeah. Okay.
Um just a couple of quick comments. Um you gave us the 400 series for the uh the windows. Yes. Um colors on that is it'd be white. It's white. Okay. Because the the details show black. I was just curious. We have
suggestions in our standards. Yeah. Uh okay. I'm not a black fan. Okay. I um and in relation to the property to the left, the height of that property versus this um streetscape wise I'm
looking at it looks like it's comparable like I don't know where where we are as far as the height. Do you have that by chance? Uh I think we're max out of our you know we're close to the max height you can do in Kate May. Okay. And I'm not sure what their their height is of their building.
Okay. you know, it might be, you know, five feet low or 10 feet low. I'm not exactly sure. Okay. Yeah. Just because the renderings, this this is a great I love the um the rendering that you have that's actually positioned on the site. Um I just didn't know where we were in relation to the to
the two as far as a streetscape goes. I didn't get an exact measurement on it, but we did our best to get it as close. It's should be a pretty accurate representation. Okay. Within like Okay. a small. And then as far as the site plan on
HPC-4, the um the setback, it looks like it's exactly to the setback of the adjacent property as well. Am I correct with that? Yeah. Okay. It doesn't have dimensions on on the um
the adjacent dwelling, but I was just making sure. I think they're they might be in the front a little bit of further closer. I'm not sure exactly, but uh yeah, there are no dimensions on there. I just didn't know. I'm I'm pretty sure they're set back uh this close to 20 foot too, though. Okay.
It looks like the adjacent property is a twostory plus roof and this is a threetory plus roof. Is that about right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. But otherwise, the design I think it really um fits, you know, fits that uh the streetscape well, and I'm curious
to see what comes in next to it as well. Thank Thank you. So, I would like to compliment you on the sophistication of this design and with regard to our standards for new construction. It seems quite compatible with the development patterns, site placement, height, massing, proportions,
and scale. Um, I do have five comments. First is, do you believe that you need any zoning variances? If this is a final review, we can't give you a final approval unless we're not going to ask for any variances for zoning. Okay, good. Um, okay. So, the one thing,
two, two of my five issues have already come up. I just want to clarify them a little bit. If you look at HPC4, it shows that you have four parking places outside the garage, which means a total of five. However, the southernmost parking space extends roughly, it looks
like, maybe 8 ft beyond the main facade of the building, which is what our our standards call for. The porch does not count in that. However, I think there's an easy solution to this. And that is that same 8 feet or so are taken up by the gate.
If you were to relocate that gate, let's say between the garage and the house because I'm sure you need a gate for the fencing around the pool. You would be able to slide that space up that additional dimension and then still comply with our standards. Would that be acceptable to you? Yes.
Okay. Um, number two, our standards specifically talk about on page 39 a series of lights in the set and in the in the rendering at least there are three set lights that would not be appropriate according to our standards. Would you be willing to remove those set
lights? Yeah. Yeah. You said they're in the rendering. I believe they were in the rendering. Uh, yes. HPC-2. There are three of them in the second floor sopet.
Good catch. Yeah, there's a chance they may have been there mistakenly. Well, because you also have two historical light fixtures flanking the door on that floor, which that's why I'm saying I'm not sure that those were supposed to be Okay. Just want to make sure. Okay. Because that's just one of our
standards. We have to make sure we're in compliance. Um, just to check, this is just a question. Uh, with the Anderson 400 series, Are the mullions between the lights in the windows are they are they SDLs?
No, we can make them uh do a true divided simulated divided light. They can be either true or simulated. I just wanted to verify because we don't see any detail of that. Yeah. Uh uh we had called it out uh where it's at you may have
it may have been selected on the on the um I think it was circled on the Anderson thing. I I looked for it. I may have missed it in the cut sheets you gave us. Yeah. Let me check real quick. So, you do talk about um actually you're
calling for full divided light options. Yes, you are. You have that you're talking about the red square around them. Okay, great. Um and by the way, you also indicated that the cladding would be white because you have a red square around that. So, I just wanted to verify both of those. That's correct, right? Okay. Um the lapsiding exposure, it looks like
you're using Hardy Plank on the first floor. And is that it looks like the the exposure you're talking about is 7 and a quarter to 8 and a quarter inches. Yeah. Is there a reason why you wanted the exposure that high compared to what would be more you well more normal
and particularly the adjacent house it appears it's more like four to six inches. Is there any discussion about that? Well for a big wall when you have them small kind of looks busy in my you know my opinion. uh
you know if you have like a large wall and it's pretty long. Well, the reason I'm asking is because the the exposure that appears in the rendering appears smaller than that if you scale three um to the light fixture.
So that's why I'm asking. I just want to know what the exposure is on the siding. We usually usually do around uh the seven inch. Okay. Yeah. I would I would keep it to the the smaller of the seven to eight inches. I think it's a seven and a quarter panel. I think six and a half.
Yeah, that's uh exposure. That would be great. Okay. Okay. And then um lastly, it's already been talked about by our railing expert, Mr. Carol. So, I would like to entertain a motion to approve this for final with the
following conditions that you could bring before us in the review committee on Tuesday mornings. And the three conditions would be details of the trim, railings and ballasters. Yep. Second would be the removal verification of the removal of the lighting in the sophet. And third is the reconfiguration of the
parking to ensure that the southernmost edge of that last parking space does not exceed beyond the front of the main structure. We okay with those? Yeah. Yep. Did I miss anything? No. You made a motion. I didn't.
I'll second it. I didn't make the motion. I said I'd like to entertain a motion. Okay, I'll make the motion then. Okay, great. Did you get those three conditions, Brian? I did. Thank you. I'll second. All right. Motion made by Mr. Carroll, seconded by Mr. Hamron.
Mr. Carol, please. Yes. Magno? Yes. Miss Wilson Straight? Yes. Mr. Stevenson? Yes. Mr. Hamron? Yes. Mr. Becker? Yes. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you. Very nice job.
Thank you. Thank you. Okay, moving on to the next application. We have Curtain at 911 Washington Street. Welcome back, Miss Fine. Hello. Perfect.
If you could please state your name, your role in the project, and your address. Sure. My name is Colleen Curtain. Um, my husband, Adam, and I are homeowners at 911 Washington Street. And my name is Pamela Fine Fine Architecture. I'm the project architect. I'm at 179 County
Road, Kate May Courthouse, New Jersey. Welcome back, Colleen. Thank you. Nice to see you and your husband again. Good to see you. Yep. Floor is yours. Thank you. Um so, as you just mentioned, uh Colleen and Adam had met with John um a few weeks ago during a Tuesday
meeting. Uh showed them the plans, had a couple suggestions. Uh, so I'll run through everything since I know this is new to many of you. Um, so first I'm actually going to start with the P2 sheet, which is the photo sheet.
And this is going to show us exactly what we're proposing being removed. So if you look at the rear elevation on P2, you'll see a small bumpout that's one story uh with a rear deck. um has some X
bracing and um just below that is a landing and stair. So that whole bump out there is their kitchen currently. Um it's very dated, non-functional. Um you could tell it was added on at a later period than the home. So we're proposing
removing all of that and cleaning up that back elevation. So, I'm going to now jump over to the packet of drawings, and I'm going to go to the A5 sheet, which
is pretty easy to compare to that. So, if you look at the rear elevation on A5, you'll see what we're proposing. So, basically, it's a two-story edition in the back. Um, we have a covered porch in the back as well with a set of stairs.
Uh the rear edition um has a hip roof and the covered porch also has a hip roof. So we were taking cues from the American foursquare with the hip roof. Um trying to pull from that style of architecture. We're
continuing the crown molding. Uh we're proposing a standing seam roof. Um windows one over one colby all wood non-clad pre- primed. Um, and we pulled from the column style as well, uh, from the front porch there, the tapered round
columns. So, we're pulling from that and proposing those for the two columns on the rear porch. Um, same thing with the railing style. Uh, I have a detail in the packet for that. Uh but basically we're we're pulling from the house and
um putting this in the addition so it looks like it's been there and it complements what what is already there. Um we do have a big glass door in the back. Uh that's probably the only modern thing on the home, but everything else
uh is basically the same same idea, same same scheme, just replicated. Um, if you go back a page, that'll show you the floor plan. And basically, that addition is those two floors. That back room is a new family room. We relocated the
kitchen. Uh, the kitchen moved to where their current family room is, and the family room moved to the addition. Uh, in that family room, we have a chimney, uh, fireplace. It's all within the room, so you don't see it from the outside. Um on the second floor we have a master
suite, bedroom, bathroom, closet space. Um and then you'll see some work being done on the third floor plan. We're not disturbing the roof line. Uh the roof line stays as is. Where is we're just basically relocating some walls to create a bathroom on that level. And uh
so nothing will change from from the appearance. And so we're seeking final today. We don't need any variances. Um, we have construction drawings. I have all the notes in the construction
drawings for materials, but I'll run through the quick list um on the materials checklist. Uh, for the roof, we're proposing some standing seam uh the 1-in high seams on the roof on the new addition and the rear porch. The main house roof will get replaced like
for like asphalt. Uh fascia on the addition wood crown molding to match existing profiles. Sophets will also be wood. Siding will be wood on the addition. Now the home does not have wood that is uh you can see from the
street. So I'm sure there's wood in there somewhere. We're not proposing anything coming off of the existing home. That will stay as is. Um, as far as siding goes and windows, windows on the addition though will be Colby all allwood nonclad pre- prime
double hung. Um, there's like an awning style um in there too, but mostly all double hung uh the one over one window trim. I have some photos of the existing window trim in the packet. Uh, basically we're matching the trim style. Luckily, we're not removing any of the windows on
the uh main house, so they can use that um you know, for a direct comparison for the new window trim. Uh the one door that we're proposing is the Colby four panel gliding door. Um that'll be wood, non-clad pre-primed as well. Columns,
like I mentioned, will be the round tapered to match the front porch. Railings will be all wood with the detail included on the plan. All the decking will be wood as well. We have a foundation with some cement porge again to match existing and then a small HVAC
enclosure that'll also have wood lattice. Uh there's some wood lattice on the home if you see uh under the front porch. Uh so we're basically matching that same style. So all in all, we're trying to pull from the existing house the historical qualities, materials,
design, and uh propose that on this new rear edition. Okay, thank you. Have you any comments? No. No. Um I think Pam covered it all. Okay, great. Let's start over here with
Lorraine, please. And I'm going to decline because um these wonderful people are my neighbors. Correct. So, and since I'm a non- voting member, I did not step down. I already uh checked with our solicitor. Thank you. Okay, Mr. Carol. Thank you. Uh on A5 when you're showing
the rear uh rear of the new rear of the house. Yes. Is there not going to be any kind of railing in front of what looks like your sliding glass windows in there? Right. So that that's a big glass door. There is a large landing. I'll call that. That's the porch. Uh the steps go
all the way across. We may need an intermediate handrail in the middle there. Um but we do have railing and a handrail going up each side. Okay. Okay. That's fine. You and you don't have a height problem with that porch as far as requiring a railing system.
No. No. Because we have the steps going all across the back. The sides will have a railing. If you look on the right side and the left side elevation, you'll see that uh portrayed from the side. Um and then we may need just an intermediate uh middle railing. Um but as far as I know,
this this is fine building codewise. And those are all sliding doors, I take it. Yes. Yes. That is a It's called a four panel slider and they basically stack over top of each other. So the middle two open. Okay. Mhm. That'll be nice. A lot of light in there. It's lovely.
Okay. Um I'm fine with that. I think it looks great. I have no questions, Jake. And it complies with our standards. It's u subordinate to the main building and
also complimentary. So good job. Thank you. No questions. I think it's a beautiful uh addition. Uh I do have some questions just just uh I'm going to ask the same one I always must always ask. Um five bedrooms plus you have a a residence above the garage I think.
Yes. You have enough parking to house require a Yes. Okay. And then um there's a when I look at the drawing there's a new dormer that appears on the left side of the house. com, you know, if you compare the existing elevation to the new elevation,
is that part of the look, if you look actually at the very front page of your your drawing right here, there's a dormer on both sides, right? But if you look at the um where it was on the existing I think it was on the existing
on my drawing exist. Yeah, it doesn't show there at all. Oh, yeah. No, that is just a mistake. No, they're on both sides. So, I'll fix that. They are. Yeah, they are going to be on both sides. They're existing that way. Yes. Okay. The rear roof is a is a metal
roof. Um I don't see something that says so there's a 1 in standing seam. Is that I think I think their submission showed 75 in. Is that right? Yeah. What was that? I'm sorry. The this the height of the seam. I thought I saw a cut sheet where it was a 3/4 of an inch seam. Right. I had it shown as an inch, but you guys
can tell me what height profile you want for the seam. Usually what we inch is acceptable. Inch. Okay. Perfect. And I'll put that in the notes. uh on the elevations. Yeah. Gotcha. And then um uh in the if I look at the um the the uh property report, it looks
like um there the windows have divided lights, but the drawings do not. And I'm assuming, and I shouldn't just do that, that your drawings just don't show it. Is that So there there's actually some windows with dividing lights. Um yeah, there are
kind of anomalies on the whole home. I don't know if there was a window replacement done in its in its you know past. Um but there's a window if you look at the front uh elevation on P2 um the right side it's actually shown it
there's a a little nine uh like three 3x3 uh window near the front stair and then there's a bump out on the right side that has a grill in it as well. Those are the only two windows that have that. So, and the basement windows on the
Yeah. Yeah. And the basement. Yes. Yes. Um, so I I didn't quite know what to do with those. Uh, so I just went with the double hung approach. Looked at what was there. Um, since we were proposing mostly double hung, I just went with the one over one.
I I'm reacting to the property report picture, which looks to me like the front windows in the top on the second story have provided lights, but I that could be just a trick of the light. I just don't see it and your drawings don't show that. So, I'm just trying to figure out what what
changed. I I'm Is was there a a uh a window replacement at some time? Do you know? I don't know when this photo was taken on the property report, but when I was there, you can see like 2007. 2007 before you before you bought the house. Okay.
Okay. Um there is a uh an enclosure on A5 for the AC units. Yes. Yes. And I notice that's at the level of the, you know, the the um the basement, if you will. I I'm going to guess insurance carriers are going to want you to raise that um
to the level of the first floor just because for insurance purposes. They they tend to like it, you know, where it can't flood. Um we're not in a flood zone here, too. So, that's why I had it on grade, but I don't have a problem with lifting it. That'll help with the wind. There's a
window there as well um in the basement. So, we could lift it to clear that. So, that's not a problem. I I just curious only because I'm not in a flood zone either in my insurance carrier head really raise it. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, no problem. Okay. Um it it if if they don't care, I
don't care if you know, let's put it that way. I just I was just surprised it was at that level and I thought, you know, that's that usually is typically above that. I mean, for the city's purposes, it it would just need to comply with the screening and the setback and then the
minimum flood height compliance, which doesn't sound like it's an issue there. We don't have a flood. If it has to be raised, then that screening requirement still applies and you would try to match underneath it with the lattice with whatever you have around the exterior of the house. Okay, perfect. Um,
those are the only comments I have. Uh, we don't see a cut sheet for the doors. Oh, the Colby door. Yeah. Okay, I can provide that. Thank you. Okay, I only have a couple comments, but first of all, thank you once again for a
very comprehensive submission, complete application. It's really well put together. Thank you. But that's fairly normal for you. Um, just two questions on your uh materials checklist. You talk about the windows.
You say both double hung and awning. And I couldn't find any awning windows. Where are the awning windows? Let me see. I couldn't read the window. It's too small. Okay. Number eight. Oh, is that the one in the bathroom? It might be. Yeah. Let me see.
Second floor. Like, where's Waldo? Um, yes. Yes, it's uh the renovated bathroom. um kind of mid mid uh uh midway through that second floor plan. So, you're just replacing an existing window there with an awning to make it operable.
Yes, exactly. With tempered glass. Yep. Um and the only other thing is the existing siding on the house according to the property report is it's aluminum. Is that accurate? I believe it's aluminum. It's not vinyl, right? I think it's aluminum.
Yeah. It definitely wasn't wood. I knew I know that for sure because we discussed the only reason I'm asking is because the sighting exposure might be sighting exposure night here. But the the addition has a different exposure than the existing house which if it's
aluminum or vinyl I think that's fine. So I just wanted to verify that it's that is correct. Right. It's Yeah. If you look on the uh photographs the exposure on the original house is very small. Very small. Um it's like 2 and 1/2 in exposure.
Yeah. Um, I'm thinking it's aluminum, but I'm not 100% sure, but it definitely isn't wood. So, what I did with the addition was I used a quote unquote normal spacing for wood clapboard. Um, anticipating that one day hopefully we
can expose the wood. Boy, that was exactly what I was hoping you say. I was hoping that we could at this goound, but you know, totally understand. Um, you know, it's a big ticket item. So, budget limitations. Exactly. Got it. So, um, those I'm I'm done with
my questions or comments. I think that the only condition I heard was wanting to see a cut sheet of the door, right? The doors quote. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Other than that, I I would love to entertain a motion to approve this for final with that one condition, which you
can bring to us for review on uh Tuesday morning. You don't even need to come. You can just submit it. Yep. I'll make that motion. Second. Okay. Okay, we have a motion for approval by Miss Wilson Strick, seconded by Miss Pagno. Roll call vote, please.
Mr. Carol, yes. Miss Pagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes. Mr. Hammer, yes. Mr. Becker, yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you guys. Thank you for coming to see us on Tuesday morning to chat about this a little bit. See you. Thank you. Thanks a lot.
Yep. Okay, moving on. We have the next application is ACTG Holdings LLC at 909 Corgi. Oh, we don't have a representative.
Nobody here to represent that project. Well, I guess we should push that off to the September meeting then. Great. Okay. Give me just a moment here. Make a note of that. Should we hand these in?
Yeah, probably. Let's do that. We met with Teresa. We met with Teresa May like I think three times about this the more projects coming as well. She does. So, folks, if we could collect that submission, we can just simply move this
on to September. Yeah. Thank you, Chris. Okay, the next and last three applications, we will start with 230 Grant Street. Thanks. If you could please come up and state your name, your role in the project, and
your address, please. Good evening, Katherine Healey. Um, three residences that we're going to review tonight. 230 Grant Street, 236 Grant Street, and 248. I'd like to say again, you've heard me
say this many times, but this week's been a difficult week. And um I am seventh generation thanks to my parents. We go back to the 1840s. I have my oldest daughter, the oldest grandchild
of the Healey family, Erin Katherine McCoslin, and this is a home we are building for her and she is able to work remotely. Okay. And if you could please just state your name as well. Yes. Aaron Katherine Mccclauslin. Okay. Thank you. Also at 230 Grant
Street. Uh 230 Grant Street. Yes. Great. So I would I would like to propose that since these are three different applications which we will need to vote on separately but they're all for solar solar with the one exception of roof
replacement in one on 236. Yes. Um if we could instead of you making a presentation for each separately just make a presentation for the whole thing and then we can address them separately. Certainly. Yes.
Um the orientation of each home is idyllic for solar. It is um it sits true south um in the back. The streetscape is
solid north. Uh we don't have many trees around the homes. So, the panels are able to get good coverage in the back of the homes for the solar. Um I'm under a little bit of a time frame because of
solar uh present incentives and I would that's why I brought the 230 which is not fully built yet but has been started fully approved by you and I have additional draw the draw fullsize drawing if we have any questions today.
Um, we all understand why we want to go to solar. Atlantic City Electric in just one year raised the rates 20% and they have a monopoly. Uh, so, you know, I am
uh determined to have my three children have adjoining homes and this is Healey Point compound. We are very respectful of the environment that certainly allows our family business to prosper uh
dependent on the sea our business and you know the greener we can become the better we can become and I am doing this for the eighth generation and God willing there'll be a ninth generation. Um is there anything else? Uh we are
using a a reputable uh manufact a reputable installer Momentum Solar that uh does residential properties. I did full due diligence on them to make sure uh they would be
compliant and get the job efficiently done. Okay. So I'm I'm if you guys don't mind, I want to cut to the chase here a little bit. So my my question to my other commissioners, anybody have any issue
with the roof replacement and the material being proposed for 236 grant? Okay. So one of the things we had asked you in review because we met I think a couple of times about Yes, we did. One of the and I thank you for your time. Oh, thanks for coming to speak with us.
Yes. One of the concerns that we had expressed to you was visibility. Correct. Um, and we had asked for some documentation of all of the adjacent streets, which is not in this application, but I think we can address it tonight. Okay.
Um, I know I spent a good half an hour walking around all of the adjacent streets. Kevin, I think did the same. And I would like to read to you on page 51 of our standard, solar technologies are not appropriate for all roof surfaces in
the historic district. minimally important term or not visible locations may be considered. So if we now go to page 12 in our standards and define minimally visible able to be seen but does not call
attention to itself or detract from significant architectural features of the building. Features that project into the maximum line of sight at most a couple of inches and additions on secondary that we don't need to go into additions. Right. So here's
the result of my I would say rather detailed observation is from Mount Vernon/Patterson which is behind your house. There's one tiny little very knowact window. It's
you can barely see it. I Yes. My assessment and there is a skylight already on that one same plane. So my assessment of that is that qualifies as minimally visible. Thank you. Okay. There's one other place um actually two other places. One is from Heritage Triangle.
Yes. Down a long long driveway that has often cars. One other really minimal window which I think qualifies as minimally visible because the the Heritage Triangle condominiums block any view of Yes. And there's often on a weekend
multiple cars on that access part. So there's only two remaining issues that I see. Okay. One is at and both have to do with the 248 property. Okay. So the south facing lows slope roof over the garage of the 248 property. Yes. Um
and there's existing two skylights there now. Correct. And you are locating those panels all the way up near the top which is between those two skylights. You can barely see the skylights and the height of these panels based upon the detail are lower than the skylights significantly lower. So, I would also
assess that as minimally visible. Thank you. There's one place that is a problem though. Okay. And that is the south facing roof. Well, it's not quite south facing. It's actually more south um east. Um from Grant Street on the tower that
you recently built on that house. That one sloping surface is very prominent from Grant Street. On that roof, you were only indicating three panels. Okay. So from my perspective, that would be the the only portion of what you're proposing as solar panels that would not
comply with our standards. Okay. Is there a way that you might be able to configure that so that you could get those three panels elsewhere? I know you're running into a lot of constraints. I think I think we can and um I also
think we haven't lived in the house long enough to know the full capacity of the consumption. Yeah. And the other thing is we are not doing a string solar. We are doing individual
um uh I can't think of that name. A lot been going on this week. Uh converters. Thank you. Thank you. Inverters. Inverters. Inverters. Um so that you can add
you can remove. So I have no problem as I've always been forthright in saying I want to work 100% with you. Okay. So to be specific if you look at the the 248 section
it's on panel layout PV2. Okay. Spec I'm specifically speaking about the three panels that are on if we'll call it the east because the north arrow is shown here. Yes. on the east roof of that tower are the only three panels that I think don't
comply with our standards. Okay, that's that's my assessment. So, I just wanted to kind of since Kevin and I had a chat about it as well, he went and we looked and we agreed. So, I went down all the all the streets as well, Heritage. Yes.
And Grant and the one behind it, Patterson, and I couldn't see any of Right. Thank you. So, if that's the case, I would like to make a motion that the first submission Well, first of all, are there any other comments or questions
from the rest of you folks? All right. Hearing none, um, I would like to move that we approve as submitted the first of these applications for 230 Grant Street for this solar installation, including on the roof of
the newly constructed house. Yes. Thank you. Do I hear a second? Second for the house under construction. Correct. Yes. And I I I tried to estimate where that roof would be. You can't see it from anywhere. It's all It's on the back and blah blah bl Okay. So, uh moved by Mr.
Becker, seconded by uh Mr. Stevenson. Mr. Carol, yes. Mr. Pagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes. Mr. Hamron, yes. Mr. Becker, yes. Thank you. Similarly, I would like to
also move that we approve as submitted the solar installation and new roof for 236 Grant Street as submitted. I second that. Moved by Mr. Becker, seconded by Mr. Carroll.
Mr. Carol, yes. Mr. Pagno, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, Mr. Hamron, yes. Mr. Becker, that would be me. Yes. Yes. Okay. So, lastly, the third of the
submissions, 248 Grand Street, I would like to move that we approve it under the condition that those three panels on the eastern roof of the tower, the back edition not be included in the submission. Okay. Or eliminated or relocated
or relocated. Yes, that is fine. And I can work on that and come to your next Tuesday. That would be great. That's fine. What I'm calling for is is u I'm making I'm moving that we approve it. Correct. With those three panels relocated that you'll come back to us in on a Tuesday. Yes.
Does that sound good? Yes, sir. Okay. Completely understand. Great. Second motion by Mr. Becker, seconded by Mr. Hamron. Mr. Carol. Yes. Miss Pagno? Yes. Miss Wilson Strick? Yes.
Mr. Stevenson? Mr. Hamron? Yes. Mr. Becker? Yes. Thank you. And I would like to deeply applaud you for the incorporation of photovoltaic solar panels on this home and for the sensitive location of them with the one exception of that one roof.
So, thank you very much. Thank you for working with me. I appreciate it. And I'm going to continue another hundred years through my daughter. My father made it to 98 almost 98. So, he is a legend.
Yes. Thank you. He only came to Kate Bay for one reason, my mother. So, it's a true love story. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, that completes the applications
that we have on our agenda. Are there any public comments uh about anything else from anybody in the audience prior to moving on to discussion? searcher at Jane Lines Street for solar also. It's not on our agenda for this evening.
We met we met with you like I came I do recall that. Would you come up for a moment? We can have a chat about this. It's not on our agenda which means we can't review it tonight. Okay. So, did you submit your application through the historic preservation
secretary? Uh yeah, it might have been too late. We might have did it got it in a day late because the office is in um Cherry Hill. Ah, they do that. I don't do that. I live here, so I would have done it, but Okay. I didn't know. Unfortunately, since it didn't make it
on our agenda, we we'll have to push that to September. But maybe we can get you on the agenda first. Okay. Can we do that, Brian? And the address is uh I think it's 134. No, I don't. 124 Decar Street.
Yes, correct. Well, I just got an email that you're Are you Chris Ston? I am. Is authorized to present, but we need to get this email earlier than the meeting, right? You know, so that's I think we can figure out the logistics
of that as the chairman indicated. Get you on the next meeting. Will you be able to come back in September? I think it's September 15th. Yeah, that'd be great. Okay, you're Kevin, right? Chris. Oh, Chris, I'm sorry. That's okay. Thank you, Chris. No problem. Thanks, guys.
Okay. Okay. Anyone else have any comments from the public? Before we move on to discussion, I'd like to introduce a person that's in our audience. Hannah is uh one of our grounds working team at MAC. there every
Friday doing all the hard work and she's looking to go into a career in historic preservation and asked if she could come and attend some of our meetings and start her education. So, welcome with us. I hope uh this was a helpful experience.
Yes. So, I also would like to to thank you for your attendance at our review meetings on Tuesday morning. I think you've been to four of them now, right? I think so. Yeah. It's been fun. I enjoy um hearing your respectful
disputes over certain. Well, you enjoy that, do you? It's great. I think I've only heard one. This was an easy one. Yeah. And and she's also made it to our awards. Um
yeah, I wanted somebody under and she definitely qualifies. She's busy. Wow. Okay, moving on to Thank you, Hannah, for coming tonight as well. Yep. So, moving on to our discussion items. I am going to turn these first two items over
to our esteemed solicitor who has created for us. Hopefully, you've all been had a chance to review what's being proposed here. Um, two different ordinances. So, the first one is an ordinance to amend the code to prohibit demolition by neglect.
So, um, this is a concept that's been floating around. I think HPC members, uh, before and after, uh, Warren's time have been talking about this. And then I think the quality of life task force has
touched on this some, but, there's towns and cities across the US with historic resources that have ordinances like this. um New Orleans being one of them. And
it's to not necessarily provide for the neglect stormtrooper, you know, go out there and focus all your time and resources on harassing property owners. But what it is in place for is to provide the municipality a
tool when you have maybe a contributing property or a key contributing property that has been neglected, not taken care of. And it could be even a portion of that. Doesn't have to be the whole thing. You could have a, you know, a lot
of our property reports indicate things like, you know, the rear of the structure is not that remarkable, but the front porch is really something important. And that's what gives it its character defining defining qualities. And so that is the type of thing that the city
could potentially regulate and provide code enforcement and HPC compliance officer a tool to approach the homeowner and indicate, hey, you know, it turns out that you've inherited or purchased or you own a property in the local
historic district and that means something here. Um, and there's, you know, a benefit that comes with that, but also that there's an enhanced responsibility perhaps to, you know, make sure that that character-defining element or maybe the whole structure
doesn't fall apart. Um, and you know, there's a robust notice process in here. I'm sort of given an outline that, but you can craft this any way you want. You can craft it as like the hard nose we're going to go get them ordinance or you can, you know, dial it back a little bit
and maybe, you know, let's get a letter out to these folks and engage in a discussion and see if we can get, you know, compliance first before um, you know, uh, going to the, you know, into sixth gear immediately. So
that's reflected in this draft in that um you know being able to it doesn't necessarily have to be the whole house is falling down. It could be a porch or something like that. And this would give
the city a tool to um approach the owner from a you know this has to be addressed in some way or fortified so that it doesn't fall apart and that doesn't demolish by neglect. Um but ultimately
it also provides the city the ability to take certain action to secure or fortify those elements at the city's cost. and then it be it could become a lean against the property. And I will tell you that that's not some new concept in
this ordinance. There's actually a statutory provision that's more general for just general neglect. That's and that's something that's provided by the legislature as a tool for municipalities to enact an ordinance like this. So what we would be doing is taking that
authority and sort of directing it, you know, on the issue of historic properties. This is more narrow than even the the legislature provides. It's not like a general all over city type thing. It's geared towards uh the
historic district. So, and that you might view that as a logical starting point um because those are probably the resources we're most looking to protect from something like this. So, that's the framework. Um I looked at a couple of
different examples out there, New Orleans being one of them. Um and a couple others, but what ultimately wanted to craft something that made sense for the city um and wasn't just copy paste of those things because that's not never a good idea. So I wanted to think about what might work
here, what types of things we might be concerned with and proposed a concept um for for you all to consider. And um you know with that I would happy to answer any questions about it. So the pro for this to become part of
I'm assuming that the intent here is that this would become a an amendment to our current zoning ordinance. Is that correct? This is more in the nature of the city's police powers. It's not even a development ordinance. So, we we certainly could send it to the
planning board, but they wouldn't even be reviewing it for master plan consistency because it's not a development ordinance. Okay. So, that's really what I'm trying to get at. Process for getting this codified is what? Um, it would start at it would it could start here. Uh, recommend recommendation
to council and then council could adopt it first and second reading. Yeah. My second question. Thank you. So that would that would go through two readings before it became codified. Yeah. At city council. Okay. Great. Um in the enforcement clause, it says that the HPC compliance officer, zoning
ordinance or zoning officer and code enforcement officer are designated with enforcement and any of these officers may proceed with initiating the processes. So if if for example we could initiate bringing forth a finding of
neglect and thereby the notice to cure, is that accurate? Can that come from HPC or not? Um it it would start enforcement is not going to come through the HPC. It's always going to start with one of those officers, but
enforcement, but the but the referral for them to evaluate that could ultimately start with anyone. It could start with a citizen. It could start with an HPC member. Got it. Um and the HPC could collectively, you know, look at an issue and say, "Hey,
that's really a problem." But um it doesn't h it doesn't require that level of starting point. So we wouldn't need a motion. We would just need to notify just somebody call. Great. No. And and actually we're the brakes on the process under this draft. So, if
somebody were to say, "Hey, I got this notice and what are you doing?" Well, let's have a hearing. Come in. Let's see what's going on with this. Yeah, that's that that's the clause under I think um the HPC may evaluate the potential for resolution. That's actually a really nice clause. Well, right. And and the the goal of
that is to provide any person that's on the receiving end of this with due process. So, we have to think about where's where is due process going to come in. I think the most logical place to have that discussion would be here because we're the ones that are concerned about historic structures. It
could it could be zoning board, but this it makes more sense, I think, for the the HPC to be on the the the front lines of that due process review and we have public hearings. So, it makes sense to do that. I think that's consistent too with what you were just saying that that, you
know, you don't want to just go to nuclear war, you know, right out of the gate. You want to have a process that allows the homeowner to take corrective action, but you also want enough teeth in it that if you know they're just recalcitrant, you know, you can in fact
go forward and and press a claim and start start you know enforcing the ordinance. But is it accurate that we currently have no structure ordinance-wise to initiate curing a case of neglect? Is
that accurate? I would say that there we do not have a clear road map for code enforcement to follow in cases like this. If we there was really something at risk and we needed to take action right now, I think there would be some justification for it under
a collection of regulations. But really what this is geared towards is from the city standpoint, I don't want to get calls from code enforcement of like I'm scratching my head how to enforce this. It's like, let's just put it in writing and give them the playbook
to follow because it puts them in a much stronger position to speak to homeowners about that if it's really a problem. And again, this is not the type of thing where we put it in the code book and people will say, "Well, are you going to enforce it?" It's like, yeah, when we need to and and it'll be available ambiguity out of it.
And that's why there's three enforcement officers there, not just one. It's like we're a small town with limited resources. So yeah, any one of those folks should be able to pick up the ball and run with it. So Lorraine, as our liaison with city council, what's your perspective on this?
Exactly like our solicitor saying, um it does give us a little bit more um authority in order to um make sure that these homes don't end up in disrepair. Um it it's been a concern on a couple of
properties I know, but um you know if and it puts people on notice. I I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing to have in our toolbox. Agree. And this the steering steering it to HPC. Like if somebody
a a porch is a historic contributing structure porch is falling apart, they receive the any one of those officers can observe that and think, hey, this is a problem. um send the notice, person gets it and think, "That's ridiculous. I take care of my house. I'm not doing this." And they look flip through the code and they think, "I want to appeal
this. I want to take this to the Supreme Court." Okay. Well, you got to go to the HPC first, you know, and they you can come in here, have a discussion about it, what's going on. We can hear from the the officer, whoever it is, we can hear from the homeowner. And then it may be the case that they end up in a Tuesday meeting talking about materials
and let's get it, you know, let's get it to a place where the the problem has been abaded. And that's why I think the steering part of it, you're probably going to capture a lot of those um horses just as they leave the barn, you
know, and you might view that as a good thing. So Chris, the this the um ordinance does have, you know, I'll call it some kind of provision to bring this to some kind of closure, too, right? it. You don't want to wind up in a situation where they're, you know, you're just basically, you know, telling them they have to do something, they blow you off
for the next six months, you bring them back in, they blow you off for another six months. You know, how how do how does this sort of move itself to some kind of closure and and finalization? Um, so there's that's where I go into the the toolbox is there's a couple
tools in there. Um, municipal court summons being one of them. You know, if you just violate the ordinance, that's a violation. And it can be you can end up in municipal court with its own fines and penalties. Again, that's like the breaking the glass nuclear option. Um,
but municipal doing the work, depending on the nature of the work, the city would have the discretion after going through this process to just send a maybe it's sending public works out there to shore up this. Now, look, there's issues with that too, right? Like that's also going to be a break the
glass last option. Yeah. But um the process itself and you know being able to send a letter on pursuant to whatever code section is going to give the city some um some
ability to to get things moving. Um I I'm just thinking of property we all probably are thinking of. about it. I guess I don't want to bring it up which one, but but the point is, you know, there's a family dispute and, you know, there's some that want to do something with it, some that, you know, just seem
to want to tear it down and sell it. And I I I just, you know, I guess my answer is it doesn't matter to me at the end of the day. what I want to see happen as a historic preservation commissioner is the property restored to its you know its full status because that then is
another historic contributor to the community. Um and you know if you have that situation where you have different parties who all have different interests and you know and and so forth I think at some point you you know you're you can't
just let them play that out in item. you have to force the hand of the group to come together or reach some kind of consensus. Well, this this provides um a roadmap for getting there. We got to make a decision here. Um and ultimately that the the resolution of that process in this
ordinance is we can make that decision for you. We don't want to. Exactly. I don't I don't want to I don't want to make it for them. I but I do want them to be deliberate. Right. This this the way this is written, it's very clear what the remedies are, the options for remedies. The only question
I have, I couldn't quite discern whether this is applicable only to contributing structures or not. I'm looking at policy under C1. I was I was concerned about that, too. Yeah. Yeah. There are a fair number of historic properties that just are not no longer contributing, but you want to
preserve them. Well, do I mean that's that's where the discussion with this board comes in. Do you Given the the remedies that are involved, do you just want to make it uh any property within the local historic district?
I would. I would. Okay. Do we are we do we agree on that? Yeah, I agree on that. I mean, I I'm not going to chime in because this is going to eventually come to council. So, um we uh council could um opt to
revise it, of course, but it would really be your decision. So our recommendation I think we're hearing is it would be any property within the historic local historic district. Right. I agree. And I'm going to be specific about that because there's three different historic districts. So it's the local historic
district defined by zoning. Yeah. We are Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So would it be reasonable, Mr. Solicitor, for us to propose a motion this evening to recommend this ordinance be sent for consideration to
city council? Sure. I would like to make that motion with that revision. I'd like to second it. Okay. I'm thinking out loud here as we go, but why wouldn't we make it the entire historic district? You could have a property in Village Green just to pick
some place, you know, that is in really, you know, deplorable state that's affecting the streetscape, affecting the neighbors, affecting Oh, why would we not consider that? So, you're saying within within the city boundaries? Yeah, I'm fine with that, too. Me, too. It actually gives the city
council more of an instrument throughout the entire city to be able to take remedies. Just a quick question on that. Aren't there other ordinances on the book that would cover that? Are we just looking at contributing structures? No, there's nothing specific to demolition
by neglect in the code. Um, that goes back to Okay, Chris, is there a minimum maintenance requirement? Some municipalities have that. There is. There's got to be something. Yeah, there there's there's property maintenance standards under the UCCC and
things like that, but there's really nothing this specific on the books. Um, and again, this is modeled after the procedures that are provided in the statute, the state statute. So, and the
state statute would be like a citywide thing. we could do it but this started out as a local district kind of thing. Although although under the very first statement whereas in 1976 the city of Kate May was designated a national
historic landmark district that is the entire city boundaries at level. So that would be at least a place to start and city council can push back. Yeah. And and the reason for another reason to think about this is is you could have a you could have an owner and a builder who partially construct a building and then
walk away from it. Yeah. You know, I mean, who just run out of money or something like that and the you know, property is literally falling apart and, you know, as an eyesore and everything else. Why would we not want to con, you know, consider something like that? What do you think about that?
It's from a policy standpoint, there's justifications for both. um have you a recommendation? No, I don't. I think it's 100% a policy decision. They certainly have the discretion to do it that way. Um I can see the logic of just having this in
place just generally because again it the city does have some discretion as to how to deploy it. I think the more important thing is to get it on the books and then the tool is available. And um the only the only sort of
question I have then is if it's citywide then that sort of changes may change the analysis of of who's the appeal body because then we'd have construction de we'd we'd have potentially nonHPC
folks coming in to review a demolition by neglect claim. So that that was the logic of kind of corraling it to HPC. So, you could you could actually revise that right to appeal clause to talk about who is the appealing body or
the the recipient of the appealing body or the body that receives the appeal based upon its its um status whether it's in historic district or not. Yeah, we could do that. It does, but I I
don't like that for for this reason. Not I just it's like which outcome are you going to get depending on which board you go to. That's the problem. I I just want to have one. This is our process. So what's your recommendation about this then? Um
I I think there's a if I'm not against I'm not like against it doing it citywide. I'm just trying to figure out then what's the right appeal process and it I'd have to think about that. I don't want to just like shoot something off the cuff because a lot of thought was
put into this question. Yeah. Okay. Many years ago, those places in Village Green sold for next to nothing. A lot of them, especially in the courtyards, are in disres disrepair. So now there's a family that's down on
their luck. The place looks horrible. Give me the protocol for someone that's outside of the HPC. Well, if we do this whole town now, okay, give me the protocol. What happens? That's what I'm trying to figure out because I'm that's what I'm why I'm
concerned because I want to make sure that the answer to that is really clear. Okay? you know, um it's really clear to me that if you're in the HPC and there's some issue with it falling apart that they should get a notice and if they disagree, they can come to the HPC and sort out an HPC issue.
So, so I have a reconciler here to propose since we are the historic preservation commission. I would like to propose that the recommendation we make to the city be within the local historic district. The city council can then choose to expand
it or contract it. I think like that's our purview, right? That's that's the easier recommendation. That's in based on the way that you wrote the ordinance. Can we agree on that, guys? Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And and that the recommendation is we think it's a good concept and you should
consider to expand it and then we can kind of deal with the logistics of that later and you can write that in the in the little brief that presented city council. I will say exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. So I would like I just I just feel bad that you know a whole cluster of homes is essentially
don't not enjoying the protection that HPC is offering. But that's city council's job not ours. I agree with you on that. Yeah, I know. That's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I would like to propose that we make a motion. I would like to move that we recommend to send this document to
city council for approval with the modification that be applicable to the local historic district. And also it could be the you know a pro not a protocol prototype that will be adopted for the whole town but for right now our
purview should be HPC correct and Chris can of course write that in his little introductory brief. Right. Sure. I will explain it when I give uh I'm sure you will recommendation. Be great. Okay. So motion by Mr. Becker, seconded by Mr. Carroll.
Mr. Carroll. Yes. Mr. Bagno. Yes. Miss Wilson Stritic. Yes. Mr. Stevenson. Yes. Mr. Hamron. Yes. Mr. Becker. Yes. Thank you. Mr. Chair, can I can I ask Chris a question? Uh suppose upon inspection it's found
that the house is unsafe or u uh dangerous to the people that might be occupying it. Maybe they'll discover uh electrical problems, gas problems, structural problems that uh you know, I
have one on Hugh Street that could hit a lot of things. There's there's always the potential of red tagging a structure if it's unsafe, you know, and that's not even an HPC thing at that point. But yeah, certainly this type of review could give rise to those issues and and
maybe lead to them getting cured a little quicker than Well, considering how many people have houses that are not uh fully occupied or uh year round or anything, you know, it's a summer home or rental house and things like that. And some of those are
real problem buildings, too. So, you know, can they be locked out if uh they aren't keeping it up? Um I I would the the mechanisms that are in this ordinance, I would feel very comfortable um following them and that's
why they're in there. But don't get me wrong, I mean, having something like this is an important tool, but it's also going to create a lot of work if you lean into it. You know, I do remember the city uh on occasions long time ago putting plywood over doors
to seal people out of the houses. I do like the Virginia hotel was right across from me all boarded up like that. I didn't put a plywall plyw there's not a plywood provision. I think they phased that one out.
Ryan, you had a question. I do. In relation to the uh to our maps. Yes. Um, where are we with that? Because that kind of falls within this as well. It right now it it's kind of in my
court. Okay. I've been doing a bunch of research. So, what I've been able to find out I'm trying to do the etmology of where we are and how we got here. So, I'm pretty clear on how we got from here back to 19 uh 2006. And I'm pretty clear how we
got from 1971 to right around 1990. There's a gap of time in there between 1990 and 2006 that I'm trying to close the gap on as soon as I feel like I'm comfortable enough. And Janice, I want to share. We have a file for you.
Oh, you do? Yay. And that's part part of Yeah. Oh, thank you. Okay. because I this is something I wanted to talk to you about, Janice, that I'd like to get together with you and see if we're mapping the same thing. So, as soon as we have that, I think it's time then to go back and sit down
with with Paul Dietrich, make sure that the I want to go through one by one and make sure that every single block and lot number that we are recommending get amended to be within the local district is accurate. So, we don't have the problem of folks saying, "Well, this is, this isn't." Yep.
We'll know. Okay. It's probably a couple of months away yet. So, I think Janice, we have our detailed map. I have some things written on there as well. Great. But I did figure out finally why they're jagged edges. I now know the answer to that. Did I Did I share that with you guys?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, the reason why there's jagged edges is because for a long period of time when the property reports came in, when a property was assessed as contributing, there was sort of a it was kind of put in a basket, so to speak. And every
couple of years, nobody was able to tell me really yet what there was a schedule or anything, but every few years, let's say that the map would get amended to incorporate into the historic district the newly assessed contributing properties. So therefore, there was just
like kind of catches catch can and that's why we have these jagged edges. It makes sense, right? Well, it makes it explains it. It doesn't make sense, right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It explains it. Yeah, it gives an explanation
for explaining. Yeah, explaining. Yeah, doing lots of explaining. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking that, Lorraine. Very much. Thank you for the update. Um the next one is is fairly easy, I think, guys. And this is another I'm going to hand it over to our solicitor. This is a an ordinance to um provide a
certificate upon closure of of real estate transactions that include information regarding the applicability of the local historic district. And the document that Chris gave us, I believe Chris, the only component of what already exists that you're amending is on page four in bold number four. Right.
Right. So, this is geared towards avoiding the not really a legal defense, but kind of like a just public relations uh statement that you get sometimes of, "Oh, I didn't realize I was in the HPC." Right?
And it's not a defense to anything. um you're presumed to be on notice of that when you purchase property, but just to get ahead of that and get people understanding what they're buying into. Um we already have a tool in place to
that puts people on notice. We have three certificates when people buy a property in Cape May. Uh flood compliance certificate, fire inspection, and a certificate of zoning compliance. So, they get those three documents when they go to closing. The title company typically makes sure that hey did you
get those three things from Kate May. So, in the zoning compliance certificate, our zoning officer reviews that. He does an inspection of the property. You know, he says, "Hey, you're a multif family property and whatever zone and you there's no zoning violations and
godspeed." Well, it we can easily build in a I I think and I'm prepared to be told otherwise, but I I think it's a pretty light lift to just include in there. Oh, by the
way, you're in the HPC. Oh, by the way, your house is contributing, non-contributing key, whatever it is. Mhm. Um, and give an FYI at the bottom of that zoning certificate. The the font is like 28 point font. We can just kind of
fit that in there and and not create some new thing. It's just, hey, let's add some more information to the zoning compliance certificate as an FYI to people buying and selling properties. So, it seemed it seemed like just a kind of a light lift thing that would put
people on notice. So, the ordinance uh addresses that and there's a a draft amended zoning compliance certificate which looks a lot like the one we already have with just more information on it. And then we' also talked about a
congratulations for purchasing a historic property happy letter that could come separately, right? I didn't draft that because I'm not so good at those things. It would have been very dry and and not not very J. I love this idea. Since it's yours,
I have to do this. And and since you happen to be really good at writing stuff, would would you be willing to write sort of I'll call it a form letter for lack of a better term. I'll be happy to write that. Oh, that's wonderful. Is is there any way that we could do instead of having something look so formal and you get a
million and one different things at closing, is there any way we can do like a flyer? I think that's kind of what Janice was talking about like a little bit more of a not as uh clinical as as that, you know, to Is that what you mean, Lorine?
I do, but if anybody I mean, you get the whole checklist. Did you get this? Did you get you know um Yeah. If you want help with it, I can help you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think just like a like a trifold flyer or something that's that it's a
requirement instead of another piece of paper that looks legal. Lorraine, I know when we were doing the um standards roll out. One of the brochures that was suggested at the time was that so you purchased a a historic home and then this little brochure would
say this is the requirement so you're aware of it. Yeah. in a friendly manner. We already have the homeowners guide brochure that that was created by Stephen when we did the design. I forgot about that. Yeah, we may need to replenish those. I think you know.
Yeah, it's probably not printed, but it's on the website. And if we just print them and include them with Can that be the requirement that goes to closing? So, are you are you proposing that we do that in lie of of an ordinance amendment? No, the ordinance is going to
have to be there, but that Yeah, that would have that would be there for the homeowner. I I think that's really wise is to have I I like I like the way you framed that, Janice, is that it's a congratulatory letter. Let's celebrate this, right? Yeah.
Okay. So, I I missed the um the uh the workshop that you had. I only came for the beginning part of it and I think you discussed it at that point. So, I'm sorry. Not in any detail though. So don't don't apologize. This is really good bringing this to light
because I think that what Janice is proposing is yes this this it being a requirement that you actually get a certificate is important but what's more important is the sort of congratulations you just are now a proud owner. Yeah. Yeah.
Instead of condolences as some people might feel apparently. Yeah. Yeah. Um but I would say that I I think I the certificate is already like part of the process. The realtors are familiar with
that with the letter thing that that may So I think what's in the proposed code makes a lot of sense to be in the code because it's the vanilla um you know clinical just the facts information that you're going to need and want in a
zoning certificate. But the letter is something that could change over time and that's that's something that could be pushed I think to the HPC compliance officer zoning officer as something that goes along with that when it's sent out. So that's my question is if is there a
means by which we could track when these certificates are given in a real estate transaction and then it becomes our responsibility to send a letter from HPC. That's another public engagement component. See, I would I would I think what might be the most efficient way of
of delivering that is coupling it with the issuance of the zoning compliance certificate. Usually those are emailed out together. Yeah. And and just if and then it could be something where Bruce would look at it and say, "All right, I'm doing the
zoning compliance certificate. It's it's in HPC." They get the welcome letter along with the compliance certificate. Great. I like but I I don't know that we have to legislate that part of it. That could be like a a sidebar. Okay. So that's more a nice policy component.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's something we can talk to him about um in his capacity as HPC compliance officer. Okay. So with that said, um are we all in pretty much alignment that this additional amend this this one clause
number four on page two which is the only component of the amendment really without all the introductory verbiage that lawyers like so much. Um that was want me to say that kindly this beautiful flowery language that hey I put that stuff at the beginning so
somebody reads it what are you up to? Yeah, that's that's that the what that's all that all that fluff is. What are you up to? That's really great. So, I would like to move that we um recommend that this ordinance amendment be uh uh
Oh, this also needs to go to city council, right? Yes. So, in the same as the last one. Yes. Yes. Okay. So, the motion I would like to make is that we recommend submission of this ordinance amendment to city council for their consideration.
Second. Mr. Carol, yes. Miss Wilson Strick, yes. Mr. Stevenson, yes. Mr. Hamron, Mr. Becker, yes. Thank you. With very much gratitude to Mr. Gillan Schwarz for his diligent efforts in
putting this complex stuff together. Thank you. My pleasure. Okay, now we have the pleasure of hearing about our historic preservation awards. Well, u I don't have a lot more to tell you aside from what was in the outline
you got of our meeting except that we do have Hannah on our committee now and um the committee is going to meet on September 9th. Um, we're working on a rubric for the judges. Uh, so that all
judging, we talked about the possibility of having the judging happen outside of the area. This is something um, some organizations do. they they don't have a local person or u a known preservation
architect who's known the people involved, but they send it to um another area. So, we're we're not sure what the logistics on that would be. Um we have questions, a lot of questions
about budget, um what we're requiring of people. So that's one of the things we'll be sorting through in our next meeting or upcoming meetings. Um we have our meeting scheduled for the second Tuesday of the month so that
we'll be able to update the HPC in the third Monday of the month and we're going to be meeting in council chambers. We just confirmed that there was a little bit of a confusion on that. um the
criter or the application process will be based on the data. So Judy and I will update the database we have already done will include the properties that have been seen since October of last year.
And we talked about going back to 2018. Judy said that the pandemic created a little bit of a lull in projects and if we reach back to 2018 since next year
it's going to be a big deal. Yeah. And we may not be doing the awards the property awards every year. So next year is a big deal. we can widen the number of years we're covering and
give awards make sure that we have good good number of awards of potential awardees and then decide after that or once we have our data at least on the periodicity of it
the stewardship and leadership awards will be generated from nominations and they're more public. Um, that might be something we could do every year because the purpose of the
awards is really to generate more public understanding of what good property management is in a historic landmark city and to celebrate it. So we don't want to do it once every 5
years or every 10 years because it won't have any impact. But if we try to make uh six awards every year, it might be it might be too much. But there's no stipulation how many awards are given each year, right?
Well, I think there was a maximum of 10 if I'm not mistaken. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. But there's no minimum. No, there's no minimum. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Good. Let's see what else. Um, you know, one way that you might be able
to treat that, the cultural trust has three organizations that they give grant money to. The uh um the historic trust, um the arts council, and the com historic commission. So, they do one a
year. So every three years, uh, you know, maybe we'd have the the best historic restoration, uh, in Cape May, uh, the next year, uh, the best reuse or or maybe two awards a year. That that would mean we would still be doing it
every year, but we would not be trying to give six out every year, right? Um, we we didn't really talk about the publicity plan, but when Judy and I were going through the archives, we found all
of the original awards material. And what was the last year the rewards awards were given? The the first year was 2005 and the last year was 2010. Okay. And there's quite a bit of material in there, including examples of
publicity, examples of the nomination form, the checklist, uh, posters, information about the awards ceremony. So, there's a box labeled with that on the top of a file cabinet in Oh, that's great.
Yeah. Um, John, we did talk about naming and most of us were sort of reluctant to name the entire event, but we thought maybe the uh preservation leadership um award could be named for Carolyn Pittz.
That'd be great. And uh let's see. I um I don't have a lot of you know Jake and Judy are going to develop the leadership
stewardship rubric and then um Lorraine's working on the rubric for the nominees. Um we appar we aren't really working yet on the event and there'll be like a
subcommittee convened for that but uh Lorraine has already checked that the shaunt is willing and it's a popular place. So would that be the honcho event? I mean that's a technical term honcho. You like that?
Yeah, I do like that. Is Lorraine the honcho? I don't know who's definitely jealous. I think we're looking for a honcho for the event. Maybe Yogi could do that. Oh. Oh, that's what you meant. You need a honcho there. Ah, now I get it. I was
The event needs a honcho. Yeah. Yeah. Yogi's a qualified honcho. Yep. Yoga, you'll be a good honcho. Um, oh, and Lorraine was going to work on the budget. Um, the timeline will, you
know, we need to work on that. Mhm. So, John, did you get a copy of the rubric? Not yet. Okay, I'll forward that to you then. Um, thank you. Questions? Suggest, Mr. Chair? No. Uh, no, I think so.
Um, that the outreach committee, uh, when it was formed, we're also required to present it a monthly report. So, I mean, I don't know whether I should defer to Justine to allow her to go first. And well, because
I think we're almost done here. Okay. All right. It's going to be too long, but Okay. So, um I was just looking into that yesterday to see what the status of that was. And what we had decided at our alignment workshop is that you you were going to spearhead putting together a committee. Yes. And it was Yogi B and myself.
Great. And we did have a meeting and we just came up with a very basic framework. Okay. And that framework we divided into four areas of outreach. And one I think which we're kind of lacking in was the
first one was media/social media and that would be to try to have some online presence whether it be through Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, one of those kind of things. Radio specifically WCFA. if we could
just do some periodic PSAs on the network just with a brief little quip about historic preservation and how important it is to the town and then maybe occasionally a historic moment where we go into a little more detail about something and specifically WCFA. I don't know how
it would float in other uh media outlets. Um number two would be printed and um what we suggested and I know like Tom and other members of MAC was that you
know effective uh form of uh public advertising is on subway type posters and you know we do have the MAC trolleys that are riding all over town and they do have those places for placards on them and if we could develop some kind
of a a clever campaign aign where we could just something like to try to get everyone involved in uh historic preservation. Have them on those trolleys, have them on the kiosks on the mall, have them in every public city
building, whether it be convention hall, um beach tag office, the parks, the lifeguard headquarters, the library. Um additionally, um brochures. What's that? Community center.
Excuse me. the community center. Yeah. Yeah. Community center. Perfect. Yeah. And um brochures. It was just what we talked about earlier, maybe replenishing the stock in them. And I'd be willing to go around to all the real estate offices and pl lumber yards and see how they're
doing with them and give a report back as to what we would need to get that word out. Um swag merchandise or um I think they call it me collateral. my daughter called it. I think it's
something out there in getting the word out. And uh it would be like shirts, bumper stickers, those kind of things. Somehow we get out in the community. Um number three would be community events. And I think it kind of goes in in line with what already happens with MAC. And
I don't want to, you know, get into anyone else's area, but maybe have some guest lectures. Maybe in the spring and the fall you could have it with either coffee and donuts or wine and shutoerie where you know we could get again movers
and shakers in the community to come in and get a little more interested in historic preservation. Um the awards I think there may be some overlap because you know public outreach and awards really are the same thing. um
maybe even have a a a booth or a table at some of our larger events in town, the Coast Guard festival, the um you know, the different type of festivals we have around town. Maybe we got a little table set up there. And then lastly was education,
which again is one of our areas that we're supposed to be looking into. And in that one of the goals that we put forward is that we want to preserve this town for the enjoyment by future generations. We feel that maybe the way we one way we could affect that is by doing a yearly
presentation at the elementary school and in the high school. Just a brief little halfhour presentation where the kids in the auditorium and they learn about how important historic preservation is to the town that they live in and hopefully we get them more
involved in the future. And second and last thing we we would suggest that maybe we could get hold of the Cape May Tech, Cape May County Tech Law School. They have a woodworking curriculum there. if there was a way that we could get them to try to incorporate um
historic window restoration things that where we could give a whole generation of new kids who would be available in town and in the area to help you know restore historic woodwork. That's regenerative thinking right there.
Yeah. So that that was our initial meeting and again we'll fine-tune these but thank you. Would you be would you be willing, Jake, to just take those bullet points and put them in a brief report that you could send to all of us? Yes, that'd be great. It would probably be better to do a written report, profit, right? Yeah. Okay. I would like to have that so that we all
can refer to it. I will ship it out. So, I I we'll take this offline, but I just want to um for other reasons, I was meeting with Janet Copeland today at um at MAC, and at the end of our meeting, she took me over to the Carol exhibit hall, and
she's planning for the 250th anniversary of the city and the 50th anniversary of the historic district. She's going to take that exhibit hall and on the three main walls, it's going to be devoted to the entire town. The eight panel section in the middle is going to be devoted to
the evolution of HPC. And she identified today to me eight what she was proposing was eight different significant events that happened starting in 1971 or actually a little before that. So I would like to she was asking me my opinion. I said well this is great but
you know I think our community engagement committee should probably be so can I kind of let's talk about this offline. Yeah. Throw it at me. I'm going to throw it at you. All right. Here, we're ready. All right. Cool. Perfect. Well, any other comments before we ask
our esteemed guests to come and speak with us? So, guys, let me give you a little background. Justine, could you please come up and have a seat? So, um, I'll let Justine talk about this. Um, I just wanted to bring you guys up to speed. This only emerged last
week. Um, and it it for me at least, and she's been thinking about it a very long time. Um yeah, and this is somewhat related to the water survey that I asked you guys all to do last year. Um in any case, I left to go to Canada and
so I apologize for this getting back to you guys so late, but I had a conversation, a couple actually, with both Justine and the Colombia professor about this, I think, amazing, amazing opportunity for us regarding adaptive and regenerative approaches to historic
preservation. and we'd like to thank Justine Vario for being here and the floor is yours Justine. Um well um thank you for having me. I do not have any formal presentation um for this evening but there were a few um
points of clarification that I would like to make for everyone. I assume that you've read through the memo that I typed up and um so I guess I will just start by saying that in the very first
meeting that I had with Columbia University's climate school uh over a year ago um they asked if the city of Kate May would be interested in um collaborating on a sustainability
management capstone. zone. So, I set up a meeting with Mayor Mullik and the city manager, city engineer, and some of the faculty um from the climate school. Um they came down, we met upstairs, and the
uh faculty asked the mayor and the manager for their suggestions or like uh you know, dream projects. And the first item that came out of their mouth was a partnership with the historic
preservation commission. At that time, uh we thought that the desalination project was more pressing um due to the design timeline of the forthcoming plant. Um so we pivoted and
took on that project first. It was so successful uh that Colombia contacted us again and it came back. We loved working with you guys. You were responsive. Uh you were engaged. Can we do it again?
And can we do it again? And so here we are. I contacted the mayor and said again, "What's your wish list?" Uh first thing out of his mouth was, "Well, the HPC. see what we can do about historic
preservation and sustainability. Um, so I emailed John and you to fast forward the whole process here. I am. It probably feels a bit out of left field and I do apologize for that. Um, but it
would be taking place this semester. Um, a little bit more about how the program works. semester Justine this fall, this coming semester. Yeah. Um so these are graduates.
They are. So and I do want to also um provide a little bit more context for the team that would be u providing this type of collaboration and report. Um so this is a graduate program. It is mostly
continuing education students. So these are professionals. Um they are not grad students who are you know kicking the career down the road. The team that we worked with last semester they were physicists, engineers, urban planners,
community outreach experts. They had all worked in the field and then chosen to return to graduate school to essentially gain a sustainability management degree that then elevated their expertise in
their respective fields. Um so they were bringing a diverse set of skills to the project that was actually fantastic to see all of these perspectives come together. Um, previous capstones have included
both municipal um, organizational and commercial clients. Some examples include the cities of San Antonio, Boon Beach, Cleveland, Los Angeles, New York City, Seattle, Cairo, Berlin, Mexico
City, um, but Montana and even the United Nations. So um Kate May um keeps wonderful company now um as uh you know recipients of the wonderful work that the climate school is doing. Um
I suppose that you probably have questions as to like how this works on a you know very practical level like you know what type of relationship would you as HPC members um be asked to have with
this team um in order to make it actually worthwhile. Um, so I I guess I should open it up to more of a a Q&A so that I can answer any of those types of
questions that you may have. I have two. Yes. What they're very related. So one's a entry level, one's micro, one's macro. So the degree what is it that
the effort that that would make this successful on the part of HPC in your mind we should be thinking about in terms of what what's our engagement and what does that look like and then I'll get the second question is related and that is what
what would be really helpful for you to get from us tonight. Um, well, what I would love to have tonight is an enthusiastic buyin um from the HBC to to work on this project. Um but I
understand if there's some convincing um in order for a project like this to work uh the HPC or at least some members of the HBC I understand that there are rules regarding quarums and we all need to be in compliance with those. Um but
there would need to be some um body of people that meet with representatives from the climate school and the sustainability management program to determine needs and focus groups, you know, areas of exploration that are
worthy of the the time and dedication of this cohort. Uh so I mean I am not historic preservation commissioner. I cannot give them those target areas.
That is really up to you. You know, um I will tell you that for the environmental commission, water, sewer, and the city and the city manager, how we created a team was or how we structured it was we
had an initial meeting. We talked about what the needs were uh what problem areas existed stubbornly and how we could subdivide that project accordingly. Um so we had uh a finance
subcommittee hydraology sustainability and demand and then those meetings all unfolded separately um with the requisite individuals over the course of 13 weeks. Um it worked very well. And
were those were those facilitated by the Colombia folks? They were. So the Colombia cohort then divided up accordingly with two or three researchers for each group and then those groups would communicate directly
with you know the plant manager or the city manager, the EC representatives to organize meetings. Then there were um entire group meetings like uh briefing meetings where we would all come
together and it was it was very productive. It allowed the Colombia cohort to achieve quite a lot in a very brief period of time. The final report is 90 pages. It is absolutely
impressive. It would have taken the city and the environmental commission and the water sewer team probably three years to create all um to generate and analyze all of that data and create actionable
recommendations that we are now working on preparing to present to council. Um, so in my mind it is a very practical approach to taking on projects that may otherwise be outside of the bandwidth of a
volunteerbased board. Is it like the outcome of this similar to the water report in that for example the HPC might have a initial meeting with these folks and indicate hey
we have a new NJP flood compliance rule that's coming out that's raising flood requirements. We're gonna have to confront that issue in terms of we don't just automatically want to jack structures up in the air like other towns because we like structures closer to the ground. So, how do we balance
that? What do you recommend? There's a lot of new materials out there that you know emulate sheet cedar shake and things like that. What do you think? What do we do with all the parking and the people that come here when we want cars out of the street?
Is it that type of thing? And then they might they'll they'll go back to the lab and sort of I I don't mean that in like a but just they'll they'll look into those things and make collectively some recommendations. Is that the process?
Yes. So basically um what you would want to do is identify problem areas and then they would break up into groups and then research solutions that can be presented as recommendations to the HPC. Would
they also take into account the latest um examples within the existing Secretary of Interior standards and also other historic communities that are dealing with, you know, like Charleston
um flood uh abatement, you know, there's some very sophisticated uh ways to deal with it. We we did some of us did a webinar on this last year and it's really clear that historic
preservation advocates must be more aware and able to support efforts to reverse climate
change. So, um, coastal and architectural or architectural resilience in coastal communities like ours would be a rather large part of this project and it would definitely be rich with case studies.
Um, and some of those case studies will include um, really valuable insights and some of them just are not compatible with this town. Um, and so, right, we would, you would be able to have another
team of people sifting through all of those case studies to discover potential solutions that are appropriate here. Um Justine, is there um it sounds like there would be a time
commitment sort of like in terms of um meeting with certain members and there maybe like a I don't know what the environmental commission did whether collectively or in a subcommittee? Yes. In addition to time, is there any financial commitment on the city's part or just sort of what what the ask?
Great questions. Um I think um to kind of answer your former question and wrap it into this one, I will I can just explain a bit more about what we did in the previous um semester. So um most of
you are I guess initially familiar with this through the water audit which as was predicted did not get off the ground because no one wanted to do it. Um but uh that was actually kind of a secondary
or perhaps even tertiary component that uh the environmental commission created and took on to try to support these students as they were seeking more water usage data at a granular level. They could did not get it. So they pulled all
the water records which are actually public and found that information in other ways. Um, but the way that we structured it was so the finance team looked at how the city can save money, how account holders can save money, how
the plant can save money. The hydraology team looked at how to improve the plant's longevity, how to make it more sustainable, how to um find energy recapture devices which were recommended for the plant and the plant actually did
not have. So there's a technology on the market already that the city could have and purchase um and install in the existing plant that could then be moved to the next one. Um so really um
feasible solutions for the sustainability and demand committees. They came up with a set sets of recommendations relating to water conservation outreach, community outreach, tiered water pricing systems,
rebate systems, incentives for how the city can save money and uh account holders can save. um in terms of how it impacted uh those of us here and what our involvement was, we I would say so I was
in advising the demand subcommittee and I met I would say three times with that group specifically and then three times the entire
cohort. report um for the initial meeting, the mid- semester briefing, and then a final the final briefing and report. Each meeting was 45 minutes to an hour. Um but each
person doesn't need to go to each meeting because it operates through these smaller subcommittee groups. Yeah, I I think this would be kind of an interesting experiment with these kind of committees because generally when you you're mentioning all the other towns, you think of they have a lot of
abandoned warehouses and you can bring them back to an adaptive reuse as an art center, affordable housing, um where we really don't have that kind of a supply. But you know what Chris just talked about all those areas are things that are very unique to this town
and you know taking all these talented people and addressing these issues would be great. Well, you know they're they're just um you know as I said I am not the expert on what areas need to be considered but I did grow up here and I do deeply value
the historic character of the town. But I also have an eye to the future and I think that that does require thinking about what's coming um for my children's and grandchildren's generation. So um
you know I hope this is something that you will uh take on. Um but if it is not the right time I also do understand um Colombia uh has fallen in love with the sound. No
surprise there. And so, um, they have also actually extended last semester's project, um, by partnering with Barnard's School of Climate Engagement to take the report
that was already created and create a new plan for stakeholder engagement. Um so the kind of support that this municipality is getting um comes from not just here but also from from far
away and I don't think that that's going to really go anywhere. Can I ask a couple of questions please? So looking at your and you did a great write up number you I don't know if you answered the um question. Did you write
the grant for this? Um, so I did not write the Earthworks grant. Okay. Um, but I did write this document, but a bit of the overview was actually from uh Lynette's initial verbiage that she had sent that she Okay. Um, but the second half of the document
I wrote up. I was really hoping to be convincing. No. And you and looking at at the project focus. Sure. I'm looking at that as really kind of three areas as well as the problem areas that you're talking about that might be
something else that might be revealed um that you would have subcommittees with. Am I correct with that? So, I mean it's really up to you and uh the Colombia program as to what my involvement would be at all. I mean it's
not even necessary that I would be a part of this. I truly at this point I'm just the liaison between the Colombia faculty and the the HPC. Um as a member of the environmental commission, it would be up to I guess all of us to
determine if I was needed and in what capacity. Well, I can give you an enthusiastic response. I'm all in and I'm hoping that there will be at least one or two others um that we can
form a subcommittee Yeah. This this is a this is a slam dunk. Come on, man. Yeah. Yeah. And would you be willing to work with us? A lot of things we I would be honored to. We would love to have you. And and I have moved to Lower Township,
but I am able to continue to serve on the environmental commission because the organizing body that oversees it allows non-residents to serve. So, I think sunshine laws probably restrict us to no more than three. I think I heard a
I think an enthusiastic response from Janice. Yes. I said I think we should do it. Oh, that was a we that was a collective we it could be a rotating group so long as
there's no more than three and that everybody kind of That's a great idea. Mission needs to be. What you can also do is once you identify like three or four areas that you would like the cohort to research like materials
uh like um elevation resilience then you can divide up as a body which members would be in assigned in each of those subgroups as opposed to the entire cohort. Lorraine, are you interested in this? Absolutely. Great. And I think Kevin
Anyone else? So that that I have me, Janice, Kevin, Lorraine, me, Tom. Yay. I like the sound of one hour meetings. She said for she said 45 minutes. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So, um I would be more than willing to take on the role of being the primary liaison for us with Justine as the primary liaison with Colombia. and maybe you and I can work together with Lynette to figure out when and how. Okay. Various members of HPC need to be
present and and give us homework or home play. I'd prefer to call it home play if we could. Yeah, it's good. Okay. Um there will be also um just now that we will be moving forward um there is a weekend in October if
everyone is here. If not, no problem. But the cohort will be coming down to Kate May um because they do want to see and explore everything in person as well. Um and there's the potential that
they would be able to return at the end of the project. Um it's not absolute. Uh it's based upon the grant funding, but the mid project um trip is definitely uh required. Has Lyn not identified those
dates yet? No. And we can have influence as to what they will be. Okay. How about accommodations and food? Is that uh that is left up to me to organize? No. Lucky you.
See if the Arts and Science Center can handle that. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. No heat in that building. It's October. Should be fine. Sleeping bags. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. Justine, what else can we help you with
this evening? I think you've heard a pretty enthusiastic um support for this. I think I think that's it. I um I guess I would I will leave with the request that um everyone just think about what
would be very natural categories um for which this project can be subdivided. um it was so successful the last time because we were able to tackle a lot by breaking it into smaller sections. Um and so,
you know, there's there's a lot to explore here. Um but as I said, I'm not familiar with the preservation codes and and really don't even know where to begin beyond materials and you can't raise a house. So,
are are you familiar with the flood wall? Um I am. Okay. Um but so perhaps that can be something that in internally you can individually and collectively start exploring. So four broad categories immediately
come to my mind. Site issues, water issues, energy issues and materials issues. Okay. And then the intersection between them which is even more fun. But I So guys, we talked about photovoltaics tonight. I I would also add fire. That's a you know we fire is a big one.
Yeah. Fire is a big one. Yeah. Yep. Mhm. So I mean we came we faced that a little bit tonight with regard to the photovoltaic arrays, right? I would love to have part of this be a means by which we could make recommendations to how we
might want to over time alter our standards to make photovoltaics more attractive even to um contributing properties particularly as technology gets more and more getting more elegant. It's really getting elegant. Yeah. John,
one other thing too. I mean, it may not be applicable to like private residences, but as far as large commercial projects. Yeah. Like with office buildings, they have it is it lead Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Incorporating green. He's talking his language.
Yeah. You know, but if we we could maybe consider that for large commercial uh projects where they incorporate that. Yeah. Lead version five is just about to come out. Yep. Um Okay. Well, thank you so much.
Well, thank you for bringing this to us, guys. We should be so grateful to her. This is this is, you know, I we're getting a huge amount of research done. Happy to know that Zach thinks it's important. That's pretty important, right? Yeah. He he has been an enthusiastic
advocate for sustainability measures for as long as I've known him. Um, so he I think is perhaps why I feel so emboldened to go get him. Great. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, big thanks to you.
Okay, I believe that concludes our agenda for the evening. Are there any other issues, items, concerns that anyone would like to raise? How about a motion to adjurnn? I'll make it. Seconded.
So, adjourn. Thanks, everyone. All right.