all right good meeting see I'm see you in the block i'm sure i've only ever seen you in your car so I'll stop were you walking down just now on the other side that was probably Kevin oh okay now they're starting to confuse us they ask me if I was just walking down the
street no it's probably Kevin hi how are you okay hello how are you let's see is that just
is it on your agenda this is just your approvals and review okay this is all your applications and they should be in order i move unfortunately
this must have come off something this came off yeah okay thank you hello guy hi Tom how are you did you take a look we are I actually was scared
one more how did you tell Yeah I hear you i keep forgetting to bring a water bottle with me i always keep one in the car and I water the flowers in front of the historic house and then I come in and I fill this up cuz by the time I sit there
Good size house yeah yeah yes yeah hopefully a lot of them will blow right through i hope so got 10 there's a couple that are couple that are going to be easy ones that's okay
that's good too tired you're excused yeah give him a little break it was nice see what happens i'm sure It is 6 o'clock on Tuesday April 21st calling to order the City of Kate May
Historic Preservation Commission in compliance with the Open Public Meetings Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided if any member has reason to believe that this meeting is being held in violation of this act they should state so at this
time anyone so could you please join us in the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible
with liberty and justice for all can we have the roll call please mr carol here miss Wilson Strick here mr stevenson here mr hammer here mr becca that's that's you oh here thank you Mr
curts here thank you Judy thank you everyone judy distributed to everyone last week the minutes from our last meeting on March 17th has everyone had a chance to review those
if so would I like to entertain a motion to approve them so moved second to the motion moved by Mr hammer sec seconded by Mr ta roll call judy mr carol yes miss Wilson Strick yes mr
stevenson yes mr hamron yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes thank you we also received from Judy a an invoice so it was be for payment of bills to
Chris Gillan Schwarz Law LLC to entertain a motion for paying of this bill motion second motion by Mr stevenson second by Mr carol mr carol yes miss Wilson Stredick yes mr stevenson
yes mr hamron yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes thank you god bless you we have five resolutions that require approval there's Adis Incorporated at does business as La Mer Beachfront
Resort at 1317 Beach Avenue resolution 202508 granados and Rue 500 to 502 West Perry Street resolution 20250 dile at 119 Stockton Place units A and B resolution
202510 kimy at 290 Windsor Avenue resolution 202511 and finally Drake at 17 South Broadway resolution 202512 do I hear a motion to approve these five resolutions
so moved second moved by Mr ta seconded by Mr kur roll call mr carol yes miss Wilson Strick yes mr stevenson mr hammer yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes
thank you applications approved and denied in review a very long list for everyone that I think maybe we've all had a chance to review like to entertain a motion to ratify this list of applications that were
approved andor denied in review so moved second moved by Miss Wilson Stritic seconded by Mr carroll roll call please mr carol yes miss Wilson Strick yes mr stevenson yes picks up abstaining
on 227 North Street thank you Mr hamarind yes Mr ta yes but abstaining on Hendricks 106 Trenton and Miller 1502 New Jersey Avenue
thank you Mr becker yes Mr kurts yes thank you okay so you may recall last month we read for the first time a purpose statement for HPC's work that emerged out of a half-day workshop where all the
commissioners got together to really dive deeper into what it is that we're trying to accomplish with our work in service to our community and we came up with a purpose statement and I'd like to ask Janice if she would read that to
us please our purpose the purpose statement of the HPC is to serve as a catalyst for guiding and valuing Kate May's historic cultural and natural resources in ways that inspire and unite
our community to steward these research resources for the benefit of all so that present and future generations continue to express the unique quality of life in this place we of
Thank you Janice so before we get into our old business and new business this evening is there anyone who would like to offer any public comment before we get into our business hearing none would like to suggest that we have a very long agenda
this evening we have 10 projects and after 9:30 we will be hearing no more openings of projects so I'm going to ask all of you in making your presentation to see as much as possible if you can stick to the essence of your presentation and ask us to be as
expeditious as possible with our comments and if we do that I believe we can get through these fairly effectively this evening so with that said could we start please with Batty and Gorman 1142 Washington Street so everyone I would like to also remind
us to please turn off your mics when we're not speaking so that we can then turn them on when we are okay jake great katherine welcome hello my name is Katherine Lorren i'm an
architect i've been working in Cape May for probably the past 15 years and I am representing the client who owns 1142 Washington Street Mr batty and Mrs
gorman uh at last month's meeting there were four or five items that needed to be updated i revised the drawings and I bubbled everything that we talked about i'm
going to list the five items and if you want to go through the drawings I can give you the sheets but the first sheet to look at would be A2 it was requested that we replace or put build back uh front steps that had
original would be original to the house we show that now uh if you look on the left hand side of the enlarged plan it's bubbled um you will see on coming pages
that the east windows have been revised so that you can see the difference between the new and the old uh also on this A2 uh we have shown the location of the condenser in the
rear of the building and the new shower there will be a drawing an elevation that will show you that and then the rear deck is been moved
approximately 9 in away from the face of the addition that was added during the 1940s so that you can again see where the old and the new are if we look at
uh sheet A8 you can see clearly the plans would show you the front steps on the left hand side and because we had an averaging survey done of the block uh we
do not need to have a zoning uh compliance for this uh we also show on the right hand side a big bubble that indicates the new location of the condenser unit and the
new location of the shower and the porch pushed to the north about 9 in if we look at sheets the last two sheets which would be
12 12 shows the front elevation of the house it shows the uh new stairs that are added to the which had probably most likely I'm certain there were stairs there when the house was
first built it's very similar to a house that I worked on across the street and we would uh match the railing on the new stairs um it also shows the side elevation on
the top uh sheet which we're looking at A12 then if we go to the last sheet uh the upper elevation again shows the side of the stairs on the right hand
side and it also shows the condenser which would be hidden by horizontal wood cedar lattice the lower elevation indicates on the right hand
side the lattice enclosed uh condenser unit a new shower that would be made out of teak or cedar and it also indicates the uh deck being
pushed over uh a little bit to the right to distinguish the new from the old so these were the five items that had been discussed and um we have complied great so Katherine I'm going to ask
folks to comment around the table but before we do um I believe I heard you say that this will not require any zoning approval is that correct yes except for maybe what about the stairs that are the special exception for the stairs that now are encroaching further into the front setback have you
discussed that with zoning we did an averaging survey and they do not encroach uh the averaging survey uh indicates that uh I don't have it in front of me but I believe that we have a 10-foot setback
and we're going to we're going to comply right with the averaging survey so this complies with that new exception in the ordinance for steps in historical districts in for houses yes it complies yes great okay mr mr curts how are you fine good
have you any comments on this project okay excellent just just positive comments you seem to have complied with everything coming from our uh conceptual approval to the point where this is final so it's it's fine by me janice I don't have any
problem with it looks great um I think you've complied with the requests that we made from the committee you know that I voted against this project and I still continue to have those concerns and thank you for your very I'd say
brief and straight to the point presentation and for responding to all five requests that we had made so I'd like to entertain a motion for this project i I will make the motion that we grant final approval to this application i will second it
moved by Mr tessa seconded by Mr carroll roll call please mr carol yes miss Wilson Strait yes mr stevenson yes mr hammer no mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes
thank you thank you Catherine thank you all bye and that was a lot shorter than the average presentation that you've made Willis moving on still old business 230 Grant Street that's lot 14
block 1019 new house if you gentlemen could please state your name and your role on the project james Chadwick architect and engineer you were good just not close enough that's all
james Chadwick New Jersey registered architect and engineer thank you uh good uh good evening peter Chucanius i am an attorney at the law firm of Highland Levin Pyro uh representing the applicant um I don't anticipate speaking much today i'm mostly here because the
applicant unfortunately could not be so she asked me to be here in herstead uh brief introduction to the application as as the chairman mentioned this is for final approval for a new single family dwelling at 230 Grant Street uh lot 14.01 or proposed lot 14.01 in block
1019 uh the applicant is Katherine Healey we did receive final planning board approval for the subdivision on in February of this year the resolution was then adopted in March so we've cons we've received conceptual approval which Mr chadwick will uh recap better than I
could and of course we're here for final approval so Jim feel free to take it away thank you Peter uh ladies and gentlemen we were here before and obtained that conceptual approval it's a two-story single family residence above
a garage uh there was discussion at that point in time about provisions in the regulations about garages below structures etc and we presented to you a plan that you approved that provided access to the garages from the side and
in addition to that recessed the garages into the building so that they were less visible or not even visible from the street we also were raising the front grade of the properties so as to
uh limit the amount of objection people might have for seeing a structure built above the garage level um the board saw fit at that point in time to grant us conceptual approval so we've made a couple very minor changes consistent
with some recommendations from uh the commission uh and particularly the three or four member uh committee that met with the owner uh and the builder specifically there was a request that we
redesign the front stairs at this building originally the stairs came from each side to a landing in the middle and then presented people upon the front porch in the middle of the building there was a suggestion that we redesign
those stairs so as to start in the middle move left or right in front of the porch and then enter the porch to each side directly in front of slider doors that are on the front wall of the
building uh we made that change consistent with what the board members requested and it's presented on your plans here on sheet 2A on the floor plan and
on boy that's small room sheet 4A which is the uh final front building elevation you'll see as I say those stairs now start in the front break right or left and then enter the porch in front of
each of the uh the doors on each side um so that change has been made the other change we made was a change to the railing system at the rear of the building last time we were here um the
railing was a wire type railing system and the request was to create a more consistent railing system in the back consistent with what was being presented at the front of the building so if you go to elevation sheets they would be sheets
five and six showing the rear of the building and the side of the building you'll see that we now have a railing system at the rear consistent with what's presented at the front um the
final detail was to add a uh a grill system at the small coupula at the top of the building um rather than siding that presented all the way across the front we've now integrated a small uh operable louver vent at that
coupler so those were all consistent with what the board requested us to do uh we'd like the board to grant us final approval for this plan so that we can move forward with our uh our project great thank you for that so before I ask
the commissioners around the room to comment there was one additional condition in the conceptual review from the minutes of our September 16th meeting and that was that the siding have a smooth finish as opposed to a rough cedar finish and
in your current submission there was not another cut sheet for the Everlast siding but from the one in September there was so I just want to verify that it is smooth siding as opposed to the rough it is it's a composite material finish but we'll be using the smooth finish okay
so tonight's approval would be conditional upon that that's fine great okay fine wonderful project i don't seem to have a drawing of your new staircase oh have you found that i
think there is a new staircase it's on four but he said it started in the center and then came down these still both start in front of either side of the building and come down it starts at the ground level in the south center he's going the other way okay so I was
having it start leaving the building rather than entering the building leaving the building it starts on each side okay yeah two choices this is the coming and going argument bottom line is we did it the way you guys suggested you come before you can go i I I know this
is this is Tom are you finished yes yeah i I know this you you've touched on the on the points from our conceptual approval and I'm just looking at it and I and I believe I see them but I'd like you to confirm it you added two peers it says in our conceptual approval in point one says add two peers to the 28t span
and opening of the recess garage that was on the side of the building right i think I see two peers right okay just wanted you to confirm that yes okay otherwise it seems to me like you've touched on the request and elements that we asked you to to do so um and
um it uh it says a landscaping plan to be provided consistent with the historic design standards what are what are you doing in connection with that there's a landscaping plan uh included on this that has a complete plant schedule so your position is that's consistent
with our design standards i believe it is over to you John or the other way i don't have any further questions yeah I think you've done a great job bring it in compliance thank you sir what we suggested i think they've addressed the the items
we brought forward from the committee yes thank you for working with us and and coming in chatting in review and for making all the revisions we requested that said we appreciate your input that said I'd like to entertain a motion
for final approval make the motion final finalizes second with one condition and that is the smooth siding smooth siding correct yes okay yep so moved by Mr kurts seconded by Mr hamron roll call please mr carol yes miss Wilson Straitk
yes mr stevenson yes mr hamron yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes thank you thank you very much thank you all for your time did I beat her time you did you're doing well you're doing really
well yeah mine was easier thank you very much on to new business please first order of new business is Taylor Gordon at 921 Washington Street this
announcement chairman I have to recuse myself from this oh please thank you Mr curtis so if I oh excuse me so each of you could please state your name and your role in the project by turning on your microphone for the record
please hey uh good evening Mr chairman members of the commission anthony Monzo from Monzo Cabinets Dalis representing the applicant Suzanne Taylor and Kimberly Gordon Taylor i'm Suzanne Taylor and I'm Kimberly Taylor welcome thank you sure floor is
yours i have some exhibits uh Mr chairman that I'd like to pass out martin exhibits A through E thank you Mr monzo you said A through E a through E yes coming i'll briefly explain the exhibits before
I go through our presentation uh exhibit A is a photo of the subject property taken from Google Earth it says 924 Washington Street it was taken from that vantage point the address is 921 Washington Street uh exhibit B is
the most recent um property survey that was conducted in 2007 exhibit C is an old survey building profile that was done it's undated i don't know when it was done but it was
in the file that we received from the HPC exhibit D is an application from 2011 approved by the commission uh to replace a portion of the existing roof
uh with asphalt shingles and exhibit E is an application i couldn't find an approval in the file but this is an application from 1990 when looks like a majority of the roof was replaced with um this fiberglass
shake shingles i believe they were asphalt shingles and comparable material not sure exactly what that was um so this application is for the replacement of an existing roof that has asphalt uh
and um the two owners who are here um have been involved in this property for many years their parents bought it in the 1970s and they are aware of it being replaced at least once it was asphalt when they bought it the roofing
materials that were added over existing asphalt was asphalt were asphalt materials and they want to um put a new asphalt roof on matching the existing roof and and the reason is although not necessarily relevant to the commission
is they're having problems getting insurance because of the condition of the roof it needs to be replaced um so with the problem that they that they faced is underneath two layers of asphalt they found cedar and it's not
clear if that was the original roof probably was although the home was built in 19 or in 1888 uh and in 1888 um asphalt was not an option didn't come into existence until I believe the 19 early 1900s
probably 1920s and based on the standards it looks like since the 1920s asphalt has become probably the most recognized or usable roofing materials and we received a survey or a a list of all the contributing buildings in Cape
May and I could have taken pictures of them but they would be too numerous because almost everyone that I've taken a look at had asphalt and there are still some that that have wood and I'm actually seeing more new homes being
built with wood roofs than than existing contributing buildings that have asphalt i if you walk down the old sections of town Windsor um Congress North Street and even on the on the other side of Ocean uh Washington Street where this
property is it's on Washington between uh Queen and uh Madison and even probably the most extar street in Kate May Ust Street and more a majority of the homes on Ust Street have asphalt roofing materials um the the
standards have a few sections that talk about roofing materials and nowhere in these standards does it say that if there's evidence of the original roof it must be replaced with the original roof um it's as it
should be and it's encouraged um I believe the goals of the of the commission are to preserve to the extent possible historic structures and preserving them means that if you have existing materials that
you maintain them to the extent you can and if you're replacing what's obvious and evident then you replace it with what is there i mean you see it with siding with windows with doors uh and also with the the pitch of roofs and the shapes of roofs uh but there's a section
on page um 21 I believe it is 21 21 has the um standards I guess for historic or non or contributing buildings and number two says if if the original or historic roof does not exist but there is
physical or documentary evidence historical evidence that the original roof of the original roof it is encouraged that the new roof replicate the original in shape line pitch overhangs and materials um and then it says that in
the last sentence same for same replacement is appropriate in many instances so I don't know that it really makes a difference what was whether the cedar was removed before at the asphalt was put on or whether it's still there the evidence to me is the fact that the home was built in
1888 and it was built either with a a cedar roof possibly slate but I don't think the homes use slate you see it probably in some of the the larger buildings and I think I see some that may have asbestous uh but I'm not sure that was the
material used in the 1800s so the the the evidence is clear you know that there was probably a wood roof and if that's the case then every home in Kate May that's a contributing building would need to be replaced roofing would have to be replaced with asphalt and it
shouldn't make a difference if you dig under the asphalt or two layers of asphalt and you see evidence of the wood which everybody knows existed anyway so you know with that background and and the HBC does a great job in preserving historic buildings and you know if if
wood roofs were affordable to people and I know money is not not a factor but most people would probably want to put a wood roof but it's just you know economically it's it's not feasible and that's why you see um asphalt roofs throughout Kate May on contributing buildings probably on some key buildings
although I was focusing mainly on the contributing buildings um so um our clients are here to provide testimony to answer questions i'm not sure they need to say anything other than to address questions that the commission may have they did present this in committee um
last year and it was not approved in committee and so we asked for a full commission hearing on this i'm sorry I didn't get the name of the second owner kimberly Gordon Taylor thank you kimberly Taylor Gordon i'm
sorry way have that mixed up thank you Mr monzo this is an issue that has come up before us quite a bit and we've been working towards a common interpretation of what our standards say
as well as what the state says as well as what the Secretary of Interior standards tell us quite a bit of additional research over the last couple of months has revealed the following and these are what uh I have written and shared with my
commissioners as a potential common interpretation one contributing properties with existing currently visible and functioning wood shingle roofs will be required to use wood shingles cedar as the roofing material for repair and placement the rationale
for that would be item number one on page 21 of our standards which states that very clearly but that's not the case in this instance you have had shingle asphalt shingles on this house for at least 15 years likely quite a bit longer based upon the evidence you
presented 50 based on the time they found acquired our parents bought it in late in the 70s yeah so I would say more like 50 but we know at least 15 because that's right all right so contributing properties common interpretation number two contributing properties with
existing currently visible and functioning asphalt shingle roofs and with historical or physical evidence of wood shingles will be encouraged but not required to use wood shingles as the roofing material for repair and replacement in other words if what exists on a contributing house is
asphalt shingles it is appropriate to replace the roof with asphalt shingles regardless of any evidence of previous wood shingles the rationale behind this as you stated is what is clarified in item number two on page 21 but I would like to go further in
speaking with Andrea Tingi at the um New Jersey State Historic Preservation Office about this issue she provided the following clarifications these roof replacements in these cases are rehabilitation not restoration projects there's a significant difference between rehabilitation and restoration as
defined by the Secretary of Interior standards and in our local standards additionally asphalt shingle roof replacements on contributing properties with current asphalt shingle roofs will have no effect on their contributing status and that is one of our primary concerns at historic
Preservation Commission is to ensure that none of our contributing properties fall off the list of contributing properties third which I'd like to ask you to consider might not be required is that if there is existing currently visible functioning asphalt shingle roofs and
historical or physical evidence of wood shakes that synthetic shake shingles as the roofing material for replacement would be appropriate subject to HPC's approval of a submitted sample this is consistent with the sub the substitute materials paragraph of our roof of the
roof standards again on page 21 of our standards and um in speaking with Steven Smolen one of our consultants and architectural historian he speaks quite a bit about this issue and I I don't want to go deeply into this because there are three bullet points here most importantly the
National Park Services preservation brief number 16 the use of sustainable or substitute materials on historic building exteriors in in many cases determines that this would be appropriate so I just wanted to give a little new context for this because this
interpretation of a common way of seeing this collection of standards has evolved over the last several months since you were last here i think what was it in August to the review committee it was sometime in December sometime last summer that's all I recall so with that
said I would like to open it up to Why don't we start over here with Kevin kevin do you have any comments about this project well again just turn your mic on um I think this comes back to the same discussion we had earlier which was you know are we are we at risk of
taking and causing problems with the historic designation of the House and we now have a a new statement from our our secretary indicating this would not so um I think personally I'm more comfortable with this um in in some form of a replacement with existing kind of
more modern materials i would very much like you to consider the um uh artificial I guess I'll call it an artificial shake shingle i think it's from a pricing standpoint it's kind of mid ground so it's it's probably more expensive than an asphalt but it's
certainly less expensive than a wood shake um you know I I sat on that review group um in August and we were very consistent in our interpretations that if there was evidence of shake underneath asphalt you you were required
to go back to the to the cedar shake so this was a major change in our interpretation of the standards in the last really just in the last few months and um my what a difference a year makes you know um so that I I think it's appropriate to go to the to the newer
materials in light of the recent changes regarding roofing materials i think this perfectly in line with that i'm fine with it yeah I think um it would be good to look into the cost and the durability of the
alternate shakes i know when we replaced our roof we replaced it with cedar it had a 30-year life which I thought was worthwhile um and we had hurricane Sandy to pay for it so we were happy to see
the cedar the original cedar on our contributing home but um roofs are expensive you got to do what you can do keep the house sound keep the house
pass it on to me yeah i I um am one of those people who um believed when we were looking forward for um for evidence of original materials that the continuation of those original materials even if they were hidden was important to to bring them out again but in light
of the last few months and the last year's worth of research particularly two things one the characterization of the replacement of a roof as rehabilitation which has a lot more flexibility to it i think we're pretty comfortable now in understanding that a roof replacement is rehabilitation it's
not restoration to which we might adhere to a stronger standard and and when the design standards were written they were written with the word encourage uh and there was a fair amount of discussion over what encourage meant encourage a
lot require you maybe just suggest um they they really were meant to encourage you fairly forcefully but they left room in for the for the use of um a different material and the last thing that I'm influenced by here is
that we're all extremely concerned and worried when any contributing property comes up for a change where there's a potential loss of contributing status and and that to us is is a serious thing which is why we're so protective of of
what you know of what we've been doing in terms of keeping those stats i I'm now persuaded that doing a re a roof rehabilitation um with this kind of material does not absent some other circumstance threaten the contributing status of your structure so I'm going to
say that uh this is this is asphalt and it and if you want it to be asphalt again it can be asphalt um although as it's been pointed out substitute materials are really making fast progress and you might want to consider
that really seriously because it will be a better look for the house i've said too much good on to Tom we're dealing with applicants that obviously love their house and are taking very good care of it uh we know for a fact that a
a properly done cedar roof is an incredibly expensive and its life is not as long as uh proposed in all the different ads it's thinner now it has to be put on over slats not over plywood so it can breathe um I there's a lot of
reasons to say this is the way to go and if you do this and save money you'll have a lot more money to do all the other beautiful things that you want to do that are far more visible than anything uh than the roof on the house it's a great house and we're so glad you
all have it thank you we love it so not to protract this discussion just have a couple more comments about this would entertaining using a synthetic shake at all interest you folks because if not I won't continue with what I was
about to say i think it's something to consider sure okay so they're they are more expensive than than asphalt they're generally speaking 40 to 50% less basically about half the cost of of wood shakes but there are a couple of significant advantages so what are we
trying to preserve here well one is we're trying to preserve an historic look i defy any of us in this room to be able to from even this distance be able to tell the difference between these synthetic shakes and an an authentic shake shingle there are three manufacturers in there many
manufacturers but there are three in particular who do an extraordinary job at replicating that look but if what we're also trying to protect is is preservation through fire protection and impact resistance so fire protection these are incredibly fireresistant these
these polymer materials second the most damaging thing to a shake shingle is actually impact resistance and in a in a place that has this much wind where we have branches falling on roofs that tile cracks water penetration now that's not really preserving the character or the
quality of that house anymore once that shingle is compromised they're also lightweight um interestingly the one question might be about the durability but they've been around since 1998 so we at least have 27 years of data about them many of them have a lifetime
warranty and some of them also have a significant amount of recycled material content so I just throw out that as other things to consider in making this decision okay so with that said um do we anyone prefer to make a motion we
could we could we could make a motion to grant final approval and allow the alternative use of the um substitute material so I'll make a motion to approve the application as submitted to permit the installation of an asphalt roof but in the alternative if the
applicants wish to use one of the synthetic materials which would probably need to be reviewed by us to make sure the the uh the choice is uh is one that we agree with we would we would leave that as a as a as a second potential would that be reviewed in committee yes
yeah and I would be happy to give you the names of So since I'm giving you three there's not one that we're saying is our preference but the three manufacturers are Cedar Da Vinci and Envirroshake and I can give you websites if you like and I think we would have well known what we would have approved
in committee rather than do another hearing over the over the whole matter so I think we have a motion before us yeah I think I I think it that was clear enough have the motion clearly Judy okay do I hear a second i'll second that long motion moved by We were moving so fast
moved by Mr ta seconded by Mr carol roll call please mr carol yes miss Wilson Strick yes mr hammer yes mr stevenson mr ta yes mr becker yes thank you thank you
thank you carries thank you next on our agenda for new business is Taylor Burton at 921 Washington oh that sorry we just did that burton at 302 Howard Street gentlemen please tell us your name and
your role in the project by You're already on home i'm Kevin Oland project manager at Fenwick Architects and I'm John Burton owner of the property on Howard Street good evening good evening okay so I'll try to be brief since I
know you're got a lot lot to attend to tonight um so um the property in question is 302 Howard Street it's an existing non-contributing property it's a one and a half story home uh built around
1950 um and actually the half story is just a mechanical attic it's not even occupied so currently it only has two bedrooms and so really the purpose of of what we're proposing is Mr burton wants to add additional bedrooms to accommodate extended family and to raise
the home up to the current flood regulations and so the proposed addition is going to create a 2 and a half story home um we're going to lift the house approximately three feet um and the basic shape is a crossgabled roof um
we're going to keep the existing first floor intact uh basically take the one bedroom and create a staircase in it and so we're going to keep the existing one-story porches at the front and the rear of the property um and then to mitigate some of the height lift we're going to put a planter in the front
about 16 in high so that we don't see as much foundation um the materials proposed will match the existing construction it's uh currently got uh cement board collaborates on it and an asphalt shingle roof and we're going to maintain that in the proposed work in
terms of the streetscape the neighborhood's a mix of uh different styles and different periods of construction um but most of the older homes are two and a half or three stories high and and our home proposes two and a half stories um the the immediate neighbor to the right is a
three is a two and a half story home just just a couple years ago it was we actually designed it um so in summary we we think the uh proposed additions create a home that complements the neighborhood and it has appropriate to massing and um
style and I'll open it up for any questions thank you um just one one comment or and it's also a question you are submitting for final yes we would like final approval um I don't think that's going to be possible because it appears that you will need zoning
approval for this because you are um already in a non-conforming setback situation that you are continuing forward with so it appears you as if you'll have to get zoning the new construction however will be inside the second floor is going to be set back from the front so that we won't require
it we have the we have the right under the land use law to lift our house to the to the um minimum flood regulation height and then the second floor addition will conform to the bulk requirements so so we don't think we
need a zoning so yeah I'm I'm going to We are not here to discuss zoning but it's quite clear to me at least that you have non-conforming conditions that you're going to continue with because not only is the front setback violated
but also the side setback because the setbacks in that zone you're in an RS zone i actually looked up the zoning ordinance yeah and that it's on our drawing the setback it is yeah but the overhang and the eaves are actually not permitted to go into the setback and they are in your case so I'll be very
surprised if you won't need zoning well set ees can go in setback now no they cannot not in it says quite clearly in the definition of setbacks in uh in the zoning orders but I'm not we would ask that it be condition a final condition on not requiring zoning then but we
can't give you final unless you we don't believe we do need a zoning variance have you spoken to the zoning officer about this not on this particular project no i mean we just had one that was on Corgi Street that had an addition
little addition and we went through this we've gone through this with other projects too where because the new definition of roof less roof irings project into the setbacks you can't take approvals from one project no no I understand i'm talking principles principally in principles we don't we don't think it we think we've moved it
back so that it complies now we're not the arbiters of whether you need zoning or planning approval we wanted to go here first and then we'll go to Bruce what we're trying to figure out is if you have to go to zoning or planning we usually don't do final you you've been here before you know that i
understand that so what we can consider is conceptual now if if you go to the zoning officer after this meeting have a conference with him and say the F is this the setbacks are that we're going up here we're showing this and then he looks at that and says you know what that's fine that meets the letter of the
code that's fine for this board and you can come back for final next month if that's the case but I I think right now there's some hesitancy on that just for purposes of there's a lot of moving parts on this it doesn't mean it can't happen but this board likes to see
usually what if you don't have a resolution from a board we want to hear that there was a conversation with the zoning officer to confirm yes this is your last stop before we give out final yeah we're just trying to streamline the process sure and and we're not trying to make it any more complicated but we also
want to make sure that it's following the usual process well and and the process can be streamlined in the sense that um we can work through this as conceptual and if you come out of conceptual here with a small number of comments and changes you'll get a
conceptual review letter um it turns out you don't have to go to the planning board you simply make those changes come back and you get your final the first the f sorry to interrupt but the first application on the agenda tonight was here last month and they came in for final they got conceptual they had a line item of things to address and they
came in and they got final tonight so we're we're not looking to unnecessarily hold things up but we want to make sure that everybody gets a look at this including zoning and and I I'm I'm not comfortable that you don't need to do that without having talked to our our
you know our officials with that said we'd be more than willing to discuss conceptual approval let's do it all right so with that said why don't we start over with Kevin kevin do you have any comments or questions for these folks i you know I would say I set
you potentially a ding issue that was my first thought sorry i am I am the worst defender here i know i understand um I I agree i thought I thought there was going to be potentially a zoning issue with the setback of the of the building so that was my first thought when I saw the
plans um the the plans themselves I think look fine i mean the the um streetscape uh of the structure from the outside seems consistent nice uh and um and you know consistent with the rest of the structures in the vicinity um you
know I I saw the setback uh on the sides and the fact that there was the overhang i wasn't quite sure what to make of that um so I guess again that's a zoning issue uh I don't have any particular problems with the the structure itself and the and the plan
thank you Kevin i just have one one suggestion i'm looking at HPC6 um the the window trim on on your design seems to have a very modern look that doesn't really fit in with the historic
fabric but if you look next door which is almost a very similar building the window trim particularly up at the top where they have the rain oh yeah a little crown molding yeah i mean I think something like that would just really take away that modern look and it's a
very minor fix that's a good idea i like that we have no t no problem that would be nice sometimes positive things can come out of these interchanges what about um shutters well well if you brought that up I was
going to actually suggest that you consider some shutters yeah I was thinking that right now so so I think we're thinking sort of about the same yeah it's theision i I think that would be a good idea okay
oh yeah it'll make a It'll pop it'll be nice janice's Janice um yeah I think shutters would be a nice addition i like the front porch it fits in it you know it's a street with some wonderful historic buildings
and porches are big on that street I have a lot of those i I aside from the fact that we've been mentioned shutters again I I think this is an excellent lift of of a of a small structure and it comes into um really
nice proportion with the rest of the streetscape um you must you must feel a little overwhelmed with your neighbor right next to you now in terms and and and this is an excellent response to that uh it's it's really a beautiful lift and and I think also your use of
the planters in front because you're going to be raising it uh is something that whe whether it's landscaping planters or something to break up the immediate height rise from the street is is also an excellent idea so so uh I'm you know I'm very I think this is a very
nice presentation thank you if I can go back a hundred years this was a fourb block area that had the Stockton Hotel one of the biggest in town which uh uh was torn down in 1911 which meant we were in a whole different
period of architectural design and over the next 50 60 years all kinds of little things went up from bungalow to shacks to and you have a few of them right around you there that are still there and you know modestly fixed up uh since it's right in the absolute center of our
historic district when we do get new projects in this area we're really taught not to make them phony Victorian but to bring them up to the character of the things around them and so I had a list which has already been read off to you about some of the things that could
do but your plan should also have details too of like porch porch railings the sizes dimension and think of the weight that uh houses of that era had you know the the the eaves that came out the railing systems that had nice heavy
rails to it that would really help all of that blend in so much better well Mr burton was going to keep the existing porch uhhuh we're lifting it yeah okay in C2 so we weren't planning on changing the porch but you could even do some
brackets over the the columns there and uh uh you know I I I think if you just look look around a little bit at the details of some of the other new houses particularly the one next to it you can really come up with some things that would dress the house up a whole lot
more and help it blend in i No that's a good idea mhm i mean but like you said we don't want to make it a phony Victorian either that's Yes we're trying to make sure that it's you know we're not faking people out that's the thing it's not a Victorian no and yes we
know that but you know dressing it up I I think that's a good idea but if you just if the details come up with the spacing the size the weight of them uh that helps them really fit in and if you go around town you can see some of the
houses that just you know every everything is flat you know the windows are flat with everything so windows with bigger frames around them shutters on them uh help them come out uh and and colors of painting too can do an awful
lot to bring the details in and out my turn i I I I agree i think we should wait till we get the final approval from the zoning board but I do think the shutters are a wonderful idea it's It's very I don't want to call it bland but I'll call it bland it's It's I It's
nondescript when you ride by shutters would make that place just jump out at you stands up uh that's that's violent situation it's a nice nice project nice design thanks
so I think you're you're very clever about how you manage the second and third floor staying within the existing setbacks even though the the the first floor doesn't yeah we try to make it so it doesn't look obvious that it's you know it was really cleverly done actually um and I think that I may have
been wrong about the eaves because you can now project part of the new ordinance that was passed porches and the steps can come out further now with 5t from the sidewalk so that's why we don't think there's any issues except there might be one with parking that's the only that's the last thing I wanted to ask well it's um RSIS would give us
2.5 cars you round down to 2.0 and that's what we have 2.0 okay so I just wanted to make sure that that's what zoning tells you because if that's if that's what zoning tells you great because sometimes when you look at um uh the the New Jersey administrative code it is 2.5 for four bedrooms right is
what you have yeah yeah so that's not our purview so you may be correct about that but yeah we did check all that and like I said the new ordinance allows setback roofs to hang into the setbacks up to 18 in that's which was a great ordinance i'm glad they passed it we've been asking for it for 30 years you're
you're make you're making us smarter tonight yeah I know it is it is in fact a revised ordinance that changes what the old definitions were so I had the old definitions in front of me so I apologize well you willing to reconsider final approval um I don't think so
because of what I said that was a good try it was It still is save us time because the goal is to be able to start construction in the fall and you know it's just time to get things construction drawings done and bid and permits
let me ask you this do you believe you comply with your uh percentage of lot coverage and the F yes we check in the RS district yes because Yes so the RS district lets you have 65% F and we are at 57.6%
yeah okay and lot coverage we're right at the 40% see I'm I'm going to take that as a as a representation that they are i mean in the sense that to me that that means he's telling us that uh and and it may not need verification so I'm this maybe will be at the same at the
same time um and Mr glance a professional and there I'm sure he did the zoning chart before he came in here um even if we gave final the resolution will be subject to the zoning officer confirming that right if if the zoning officer says he can't won't give us a zoning permit we would have to come back
but before we and he's pretty careful about that okay let's hold that because I still have a couple other comments um one of the things that I find it's it's challenging to review these elevations on
HPC2 because we don't have existing elevations but I suspect that we don't have existing elevations because what's existing is remaining and everything above that is something added right that is correct so for example if we look at the right elevation those four windows formerly five above
the foundation level are what's existing and is that also the case in the left elevation correct oh no there's two new windows on the left there's no attic windows right now there's just two on the first floor existing yeah the one vertical one and the one small horizontal those are existing windows
yeah right so the one one of the things that I would just like to ask you to consider here is it seems like a very odd arrangement of these windows given that on this first floor the windows are
smaller than what's on the third floor which would have been a very very unusual circumstance i think you know why though and unless we go to casement windows we can't get them the same size the original windows however I would suggest that you could
you could maybe um mitigate that sort of proportionality problem or issue um by simply taking on on both the left and right elevation those double windows and separating them a little bit on the third floor yeah on the third floor i think that that would significantly
improve let's call it the I'll call it the interestingly the the window to wall ratio that doesn't really change but the the size of that one big window on the third floor on both sides seems out of proportion with the rest of the house
yeah that makes sense great all right so um I have no further comments would we like to entertain a motion for this project what kind well that's up to the person making the motion well given the fact that the
representations have been made that uh that there really isn't going to need to be any um that there's any violation of those ratios um I would make a motion that the application be granted final approval but it be conditioned uh on the
agreement to take the window treatment as as uh as as as was just provided in the comments and I think the other things that we talked about were really suggestions rather than conditions i don't think we I don't think anybody here wanted to mandate the use of
shutters although it was suggested to do it i just brought it up yeah on the front facade shutters in the front shutters in my house much better project so So I guess we could make it conditional on the use of on the application of shutters to the the structure sorry Jim front facade front
facade are these operational shutters window sized or screw on shutters that you're asking for it's a non-contributing structure it's new i'm not that far yet um but it would be nice to make I just thought of it right now so I would have to think about what
which way to go there's a big cost difference yeah well an operating shutter is going to have hardware in Oh yeah right you can't just nail them on they they they'll look a lot better you do look back but constantly see I'm getting myself now into having made this motion
i think there's enough details that you that ought to be thought about here the cornises so you're thinking conceptual yeah the wider window frames that really ought to be in a plan okay all right so I will amend that to to make this a motion to grant conceptual approval okay okay and um and we need to list the
things that we put in the conceptual letter which would be consideration of shutters um what else are we dealing with wider window window framing frames um brackets on the the columns on the front some details that just bring you
saw my front porch now from the street it it I think I have one of the best porches on the block but now you have two more stores above it exactly but that porch ought to look a little bit heavier because it's supporting so much of a building above it it looks heavy well well the way this will work is the
con as they're expressed as conditions it'll appear in the letter of of conditional approval and then when you come back and that may be very shortly you'll show us how you addressed those conditions
so I'm sorry if I draw that on but um so I think what what I'm hearing is there's there's a a motion for conceptual approval with revised third floor window configuration investigation of shutters window trim framing andor other details
fine i can accept that as the text of the motion if it'll be seconded then we can put it into the conceptual letter do I hear a second i'll second it moved by Mr ta seconded by Mr carroll roll call please mr carol yes miss
Wilson Strick yes mr stevenson yes mr hammer yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes thank you so that will also give you time to just check in on zoning to make sure that And please feel free to come and see us on any Tuesday
morning just make a an appointment with Judy and we can chat informally about this if you'd like okay thank you you're welcome thank you for your time okay moving on to next new business 413 to 415 Washington Street excuse me Mr chairman i have to recuse
myself oh okay sorry about that okay if you could please just introduce yourselves tell us your name and your role on the project please i'm Danny Offelman uh one of the owners i'm Amanda Adams i am one of the owners as well and
I'm John Halber i'm the project architect and engineer thanks welcome everyone thank you floor is yours great we are here this evening um first perhaps let me clarify i believe the application did indicate receiving final approval but we do require site plan
approval from the planning board so we would like to amend that on the fly here to be conceptual only thank you you've answered my first question um we submitted concurrently so we expect with the board sometime in the next probably two months um so seeking
conceptual approval to convert what's commonly known now as the Cassal's shoe store into a new jewelry store the property is on the north side of the Washington Street between Jackson and um Decatur and it's kind of uniquely
situated where it has a pedestrian alley that divides at mid block so we almost present ourselves as a corner property from the U pedestrian mall um an opportunity that unfortunately the existing store didn't want to take advantage of architecturally we're going to try and remedy that through some
enhancement overall what the project is going to entail is converting the existing second floor which is presently a part of an apartment and part storage into full retail space preserving the thirdstory apartment uh intact so we're now going to have two full stories of
retail space and a third floor apartment we intend to significantly renovate the Washington Street facade by taking what is predominantly now a large brick blank wall and uh introducing storefront windows to it there's a door leading to the second floor apartment on Washington
Street that's being removed entirely um actually being relocated to the Lyall Street the rear of the building to create a more um uniform commercial frontage along Washington Street the storefront glazing is going to
occupy most of the first story window but we're going to introduce about a twoft tall um so call it a water table or um for lack of a better water table trim um around both the Washington Street and then wrapping that around the side down the uh the alley as
well and then probably most significantly to the building elevation we're taking very dimminitive side wind dimminitive size windows on the second floor and widening and deepening them them allowing more light into the commercial space that's now going to occupy the second floor and also giving
more proportional openings uh for the building facade the existing roof which is an asphalt shingle roof would be entirely replaced with metal metals roof um the existing siding which is on the second floor we're going to try and preserve
and paint uh if that doesn't work we'll replace it with an equal which is a certaintied monogram 4-in lap siding and the brick that's on the first floor that which remains will be painted the cover sheet of the fullsize
plan presents you a pretty nice three-dimensional view uh of what the building will look like when it's done and I think it's going to be significant enhancement to the Washington Street Mall um it's drawing some inspiration from the existing Kate M um sorry the Queen makes jewelry store one block
further to our south I guess that'd be um so those of you who are familiar with that building can appreciate the street presence that it presents in fact uh I think it's marked by many as being a very attractive building and we're looking to uh continue that
here so this is a non-contributing building uh it was originally built in the 1970sish um masonry block walls there's nothing historical about this construction
um the detailing where it does exist really happened at the upper levels with some coraling happening on the roof overhang uh they have the cut railings for the front and rear deck which we're preserving we'll simply repaint those um but I think overall you're going to see a pedestrian friendly enhancement to the
um finishing and trim that's going to really make the building pop much more than it currently does the one thing I failed to note that is is noteworthy is we're going to take the first floor rear this is Lyall Avenue facade and we're actually going to drop that front wall back about three
and a half feet we're doing that to allow parking which we're obligated to provide by the zoning ordinance off Lyall Street so two columns will be introduced on either corner uh to support the second floor and the third floor deck which overhangs that that
gives us the necessary depth for the parking spaces um off lane with that introduction um I'll be happy to answer any questions so before I before I ask folks to go around the table and make comments I just have one quick question um in your
cut sheets you include some siding that has um wood grain in it rough cedar correct so um that's probably something that we would ask you to change the question I have is where is it because I can't find on your drawings where there's new
siding there is that would be if the existing siding the painting doesn't work we have to replace it got it and it happens at the second story level only okay okay there's no siding at at the first floor or or lower so you're saying then that the siding you would use would match exactly what's there and there's a
wood grain vinyl siding correct that that explains And honestly I think you'd have a hard time seeing the wood grain at that second yeah yeah that explains the mystery and I might suggest when you come in for the final where you put vinyl collaborate siding by certainty and if you're going to put in the possibility of using the monogram
specify it's the smooth side happy to do so okay so um Kevin would you like to start with your comments see I remembered for the first time here um just can you tell me where the entrance to the third floor apartment is it's going to be on the LS back on the
back side of the Exactly exactly if you look facing the rear of the building be on the right hand side okay are the uh shutters on the on the second story are those working shutters or those They were not intended to be not intended to be working shutters and do you have a plan for the signage
on the on the new structure because that also comes under we show them in elevation we have um raised gold lettering Queen May above the front door wall mounted and then we have two um pendant wall hung signs circular in nature um overhanging the Washington
Street right away if you look on our sheet AP201 um you'll see them on the lower left corner okay i think we want to see some more details on those usually we look pretty closely at some of the some of the signage configurations i'm sorry we
usually look pretty closely at some of the signage configurations so I think we want to see more detail on that actually some cut sheets on those okay so that's it i don't have any other questions is there anything about the shape or the form of it that you find objectionable as opposed to just noting
the materials it's it's mostly it's mostly materials it's uh size um usually the lettering some kind of raised uh kind of a you know raised lettering type of configuration carved wood and that's those are the signage um standards are in our standards book you can just look
exactly right you know looking at the existing structure I mean there's no symmetry to it it looks like the the rear of a 1970s condo um I I think this design is transformational and I think it'll be a great it'll really be a gem
on the mall yeah I I think I think that pedestrian alleyway as a corner looking property is really gonna make that whole block pop so we'll skip over Janice i think she's having a bit of a cough mr say um you know the existing building
had no place to go but up and this has really brought it up it is it's one of those things that you you take something that looks like a house um with some windows and he turned it into a real
gem other than having for example early suggested comments it's great thank you Mr carol oh sorry about that i'm okay i just I'm getting over a cold but um I
don't have anything to add except I really loved Cassal's shoes my wife that I actually remember as a kid being taken there myself to get shoes i I think everybody who's been here for a while remembers visiting them for something yeah mr barry Barry's
clothes right across the street from your first suit i was wondering if you do the second escalator in the state the first one 20 years ago caused quite an uproar in town no there will be an elevator for handicap accessibility but uh no escalator um we thought about it
but I I assume that the second floor is is that going to be part of queen uh of the uh Yes of the same store yes so you wouldn't be calling for a different uh signage up there one one commercial tenant okay uh one thing with shutters
when you now widen a window our rules are that the shutters should appear when closed if they close if even if they don't close they to be at the appropriate size so you really have to have like a double fold shutter that would cover the window so we don't mind
that they're not operating but they should still represent that it's a shutter that would fold out in front of the window okay and you don't have that many windows up there to deal with no yeah um and that's really all I have and I I just agree with everybody else u
it's going to be a great upgrade thank you okay so I agree with what my fellow commissioners have said i do have one request for you however and that is when you submit for final these elevations are so tiny uh it's really hard for us
to see the detail that I think we're going to need to see for the railings for example i mean it would be great if first of all existing and new were at the same scale okay right and second if you could fit all four of those on 111 by 17 we'd be able to assess them I
think far more carefully the 11 by7 is kind of at odds with a larger scale but we'll see what we can do for you oh I I understand your your It's almost impossible to to understand the level of detail that you're proposing uh and what you're looking at
Mr mr chairman on sheet AP 101 was really intended more for the planning board i recognize that so if you look at sheet AP 2011 AP 2011 is far better exactly okay exactly great that's exactly what I was requesting so that's great um other than that I think
that I would love to entertain a motion for I think the only comments were that the shutters be large enough to match the window width right i'll make the motion the smooth and the smooth siding well that's that's a
little bit questionable if used only because what's there now is not smooth sighting i think that's what your testimony was right John we believe it to be the certainty monogram which has the wood grain emboss correct no that I'm mistaken i will take a picture of that when we come back for final that'd
be great if you could just clarify that for the final that'd be great i obvious obviously don't want you putting smooth in the middle of textures so I'll just say verify siding to match so that would be part of this this motion i think I will make the
motion that uh since I brought up the shutter issue that it be the appearance of a double fold shutter on window and what would you want to add on the graining of the wood just that the siding to that match matches existing
okay yeah what about what about the signage and the signage details and provided signage and lastly the signage details got it yep thank you Judy and this is conve This is a conceptual conceptual correct yes do I
hear a second i'll second the motion okay moved by Mr carroll seconded by Mr heammer all in favor mr carol oh sorry i It's It's getting late it was getting
Yeah trying to hurry do the roll call yes i guess Mr carol I miss Wilson Strick yes mr stevenson mr hammer yes mr ta yes mr becker yes thank you thank you
come back thank you everyone nice work next on our agenda 16 Reading Avenue please your name and tell us your role in the project good evening uh my name is Paul Kiss i'm the project architect
um and I'm here representing Scott and Lois Cohen who could not be here uh they did submit a note uh to your secretary authorizing me to represent and they would abide by whatever we decide thank you Mr kiss
um so I'm here to review um what I consider um cosmetic changes um after we completed drawings um my clients got their pricing they got um with their kitchen designer and so forth and uh
really it's mostly about rearranging some windows and doors there's no change to any of the exterior walls of the building there's no change to the height of the building um and I submitted a uh a letter uh going sheet by sheet with what we changed um in the interest of
time I'll um maybe just hit the highlights um maybe concentrate on the elevations and what you see from the outside um one of the uh there there were a couple of changes um I should say the building uh has full building permits and is under construction now
they're putting pilings in the ground um based on your previous approval um so we submitted the drawings as you approve a bit got all the permits and they're underway the only change um is that the zoning officer would not allow the
generator where we originally proposed it and um he had us move it to within the building setbacks we had it on the accessory shed he said you can't do that it has to be within the building so I'll show you where we put that and where he approved it um and there were a couple
of minor changes um that actually reduced impervious coverage we um inadvertently we had the the driveway touching the pool patio and that's not allowed there has to be a three-foot separation so we made those changes on the site plan um in terms of uh
materials again there's no there's no changes so what I'd like to do is I can show you oh and um we did submit the original presentation you approved and then the the revised with everything bubbled on
the 11 by7 sheets um so what I'm what I'm showing you is the um the revised sheets and just to point out where we made the changes so the generator was on the shed in the back and we moved it
within the only place within the building setbacks would be and as far away from the street as possible is is behind the outside shower um and it's on an elevated platform uh we eliminated some paving in the back left under the stairs and over
here on the right side that's it and and that's what's in your four-page letter well we there are some other things so um well let me let me there are a couple other things so let me go over those
so what I will do is that one sorry okay I will look at uh drawing number A1 which shows the lower level too many boards point number A1 of the new submission shows generator location in the back
right um because of moving the shower and some other reasons there were doors on this side and an electric meter facing north or facing um that's north facing east um
so we we relocated the electric meter to the back left of the building facing the side move doors around to the front of this little storage area and I think I think everything else you'll see on the elevations
so starting with on on drawing A3 the front elevation these other pages on the floor plans are just kind of where on the floor plan the elevation changed and some internal things
um so on the front elevation There was a window facing the street in the bathroom which we removed so that's way back um our original drawing showed railings continuous across which isn't
possible there have to be dual post for structural support so we added the required new posts for the railing construction and we changed the gutter design from a half round to a K gutter on the rear elevation we relocated the door from the
storage room from the left to the right of that room you're showing where the generator is back left side of the house and on all the elevations we added plug vents which are required
so going to going to the left side elevation um we altered the design of the shed it's shorter to eliminate the generator function it's shorter in length not in height
um the flood vents uh the new post in the deck railings and uh this window was a was a small rectangular window we changed it to and the gutters uh and
then on the rear elevation oh sorry on the right side elevation right I have to go back there's one other thing on the rear elevation I forgot um elevations the dual post the
generator platform is sitting here but from the street it's mostly hidden by the side shower which project in this building and that's that was shifted over slightly to accommodate the generator platform um on the first floor there were stacked
windows where this double hung window is now located we evenly spaced these three sets of stacked windows that are in the bunks and there's a a um projecting um triangular bay window
on the rear elevation which I'll go back to and show you and you see the side profile of that on the right side elevation maybe maybe it's best to show you previous elevation so to to enhance the inter
internal part of the stair the light coming in we added this small triangular bay with a pairs of windows instead of these single windows on zero elevation that's it
okay so before we go around the room I just have one quick question for you and that is on your materials cut sheets you indicate three options for roofing materials yes have has the owner made a
selection which those of those it will be as of now they've chosen asphalt okay we would all like them to use cedar but um with budgeting okay but I will introduce to them the
idea of the synthetic that you brought up earlier yeah I wrote that down okay thank you so um Mr curts would you like to start with your comments please i think it's a lovely project the changes aren't too radical um it's an asset to the neighborhood i
think Mr carol I got to go back a little bit further when Scott Peters bought this property and wanted to subdivide it and we went through quite a few different renov renovation talks with him uh
common driveway things spread out a little bit um and I can't really remember what happened on May of last year but somehow Scott Peters sat where you're sitting and answered the question that there will be no swimming pools on
this property and the reason that we were asking that because on the property right behind your backyard is one of the most historic properties in town and it only has 9 ft 6 in to uh your property
so now there's going to be needing uh you know certainly a fence and headers there's obviously a shed here for the kids tools and all this is going to be right in front of the other neighbors uh we I'm not even sure this pool was on
the plans when we looked at it last May that's that's my question there's a lot of things that you're changing in fact I've never I've never gone back to a plan that now has four pages that when the uh construction office is trying to look at the plans to see if they conform
they have to go to a four-page document to see what was changed and what happened i think the plans absolutely have to reflect that but uh I I'm pretty serious about this swimming pool is a problem it's just right there on the
property line almost and uh you know that swim swimming pools can become fun but very noisy places so I go back to what we are are uh our meetings with Scott we did have a few problems with
Scott not always listening to things that we said but uh that was something that certainly came out and I sure would be in the minutes of that meeting uh May last year is a long time ago and I don't think any of us here and many of these members are new to the board since May
of last year but I that is something that I'm certainly holding out for because I think that would be a real travesty for that neighborhood may I reply to to that please um well first of all we have absolutely nothing to do with Scott Peters my clients
bought the property from him um there was no representation that a pool was not allowed um this L1 drawing was the landscape plan i have the site plan also that was presented and approved by the HPC including a swimming pool um
so I don't I don't see how we could be held to something that a developer represented before my clients were even involved with the project well I I'm having problems looking at all these different changes that you're
proposing on this and uh I I do know the neighbors are watching this and they're pretty upset about the the the size and mass and the kind of commotion that it could cause and still saving a little bit room to put a whole another monster
house right in there and and maybe even another swimming pool i I can't I can only reply to to what we're doing we changed a few windows and a couple doors it's just there are a number of windows and I try to be as
explicit as possible that's why the letter's so long explaining in two different places what the changes are so I would like to point out that our resolution from last year specifically says a new single family house and an accessible accessory pool i see that
yeah so um and I see I see nothing has substantially changed associated with the pool in that regard there nothing at all has changed with the pool i do know the person that owned that it was a good friend of mine's mother owned that for many many years um and I've
been through that house it's it's a beautiful house i hope the new owners respect it i'm sorry what's what's being proposed to just a fence and shrubs for the pool with the uh to the property line the landscape buffer and and fence 4 foot
high fence Mr kiss that's I don't remember what fence was approved that's consistent with the city's current green space requirements it is we have full permits for the entire project um but because there are these changes that did not
match exactly with the approval the zoning office requested we come back here and get your approval on the changes and but did you did this go before the zoning board no it has full permits it was not required to go to the zoning i read said that the the lot area was in insufficient for the everything
you were putting on it but didn't that call for a zoning no that was part of the subdivision and we conform with the requirements of the subdivision going way back when my clients it was m misrepresented what they could build they they were told they could build a
bigger house and when we started designing I had to tell them no you're limited to this size and so they entertained thoughts of going for variances um but decided it just wasn't going to happen um so everything
conforms with the subdivision plan okay mr as far as I can tell your bubbles of changes uh and those that you illustrated are accurately portrayed i mean you you did what what's in the bubble u and uh I I guess I'm uh and and
and I and I would say as as John had pointed out before you've left in your material sheet alternative roofing options but you've actually said in your material sheet it's going to be asphalt mhm so um there is some inconsistency there that we need to iron
out i'm I'm just have a very poor recollection of this having a pool approved but it's in the record saw except that that was that was the case uh is it possible for you to increase the landscaping buffer at around the
pool in terms of density of plants the density of plants yeah density of plants yeah density of plants that wouldn't be a problem i mean I think we'd like to see it as densely I mean it it does affect in in a way streetscape view so so it it um it's not a matter of
whether the pool can be seen but but in terms of streetscape I' I'd like to see that have a a denser buffer around the pool to at least buffer it a teeny bit from adjoining property yeah if you're talking about more plants in a but in the same space I can definitely do that
that's that's not a problem that's what that's what I'm talking about i I have no further comments yeah Janice I just had a couple questions um regarding on page A4 where you show all the doors and windows at the bottom on
the first level i guess they're garage doors on page A4 yes okay and I just wanted to know whether um which one of the doors would they be would they be the carriage style garage doors each one of those
openings because it really doesn't seem they they don't really look like anything on the materials list well the intent was that they are just what they look like tongue and groove doors um Okay could we a catalog cut
maybe to see exactly what they're going to look like yeah we could submit back to the committee a a catalog cut of the garage doors is that acceptable yeah just note that that was also one of the conditions for the uh resolution that was passed last May that you submit
cut sheets for the garage doors okay okay and and the other thing is I think you know again I'm trying to recollect it was a long time ago but I believe that we did mention that travertine is not appropriate in the historic district for a driveway covering
the driveway is brick it's going to be brick okay well so where is the traffic around the pool okay so it's up to you so it would seem couple of couple of questions first of all um just I mean the the um site plans and I'll I'll use SP1 as as maybe my
basis here have very little space that is not covered in some kind of an impervious material i I just that strikes me as just an awful lot of ground coverage are you dealing with you know remediation rainwater and everything else
it's it's I I I I I can't believe that that's consistent with the zoning code i I would think there's a there should be more space for drainage for you know um you know plings and things like that it it is absolutely consistent we have the
full zoning approval um grading plan submitted um so it meets the requirements i'm just shocked i mean it just seems there as you look at that there's just a little narrow strip around the outside and the bit right in front of the house it just it just strikes me that they're the level of
imperous materials that's then going to cause water to drain off the property into the street into the adjacent properties is just a you know a lot so well the drive the driveway is a drainage system if you look on the last page of the material cuts second to last page
um it's A3 on the material um sorry the the application with the materials so we're looking at the uh the U pre-cast brick paver drainage system right brick paver drainage they they want to do brick like is
depicted with drainage in between yeah I see that and the stone underneath so it's theoretically captures a lot of that water and it is only counted at 50% which is why the area looks that much bigger okay what's the the impervious
requirement is it 70% here does that I'm trying to look on the zoning chart but I can't uh it's um 75% required and we are at 67.4% chris got it yeah I'm looking at the
same page thank you well I didn't know if you wanted the bigger one to see second thing I was trying to find where the fence comes across i think I just found it it's like halfway kind of right where those little um beach carts come out that's where the fence cuts across
to the edge of the property and goes around the back and comes back at the I guess that back stairs in the back i was just trying to find where the fence look you know how the fence circled around that and the height of that is how many
feet 48 inches four feet okay so yeah it starts at the front corner of the park storage i think it's just what you described okay typically we don't usually like the showers or the generators to be visible from the street or HVAC systems things like that now on
drawing SP1 it and A1 it's a little different than if you look at drawing SP1 in the back where the placement of that door is you can see on the one hand the
door SP1 in the back of the pack has the door close closer towards the edge of the house sp1 in the top of the package has the door closer to the middle of the pool I'll call it you see that the two drawings are somewhat different right
that's the difference okay i what I was going to ask is there is there a reason why you don't open the door onto the side of the house then move that shower and the generator around behind the house into that black blank space that would then be created so that way
neither the generator nor the shower would be visible from the street in effect we have a 10-ft setback requirement to the pool so nothing can go in that space i see i see well then at the minimum I
would suggest you look at doing some kind of a screening around the generator just so it's not visible from the See it's it's there i'm not sure how the height of the of the shower comes up to whether that covers and totally conceals the generator or not does does it you
I'll take whatever you tell me not quite it's the generator is maybe about 8 in taller than the shower because effectively covering it sound enclosure that's around it we can't screen in front of it because of code i understand um but the shower blocks most of the
view street okay that's good enough all right i don't have any other questions i I I I have to express I'm I'm a little concerned about the drainage on the property i just think that that's there's an awful lot of coverage on the lot of some kind of
semi-permeable or non-permeable material i I'm surprised zoning is has not considered that or maybe they did okay one question that I have um besides the two that have been raised
that I think are part of what the motion will likely be about needing a garage door cut sheet and are you proposing that that be a wood garage door i don't know the answer to that until they decide as you might imagine I've had a little trouble getting some
decisions which is why I'm here with all these changes understood yeah um you did I mean given that there's four pages of changes you were I think quite expeditious in your presentation of those that would affect our decisions and there actually aren't that many really um from my perspective and the
denser landscaping to screen around the pool i think those are the two issues thus far um I I have the same concern that Kevin had about the screening around the generator but there are code issues regarding the distance between a generator and any sort of enclosure at
all correct that's right and it also depends on the generator how it's rated that's why I'm trying to move it around behind the house it used to be a lot i mean they used to be not badly fire rated and now they've improved whether we've improved or not another
story well what concerns me I I used to be able to put it right up against the house too but we can't do that anymore no not not unless you've got some insulated steel thing a foot and a half from the house that's the rest of it is that's not going to work well what concerns me is that it it it's it's
partially hidden from the by the shower from Reading Avenue but there's a corner lot between this lot and what is that new Jersey yeah which means that it would be visible for some period of time before there was a structure built there from
New Jersey so I'm just wondering if there's anything you could do to screen that we can increase the density of the landscaping we have a landscape buffer on that side as well so we could maybe do a couple larger I don't know about trees is the
right word but more dense landscaping okay great anything you can do in that regard is is going to be helpful even if it doesn't meet visibility versus invisibility specifically a visibility requirement that's the way John reads it be but but noting that that's likely
temporary anyway because of the high likelihood that there would be a structure built on that corner at some point which would in fact obscure the viewing of it right the only other question I have is if we're looking at the window cut sheets um we're looking at these mission style
windows and it appears that those are not simulated divided lights but that's a grill applied to the outside of the window is that accurate they will be simulated divided lights they will they will okay i would like to make that a stipulation here because it's not what it says here it says the pattern would be applied to the outside of the glass
i'll submit a cut sheet okay great and and in fact just as a general comment when you come in with the cut sheets let's eliminate the things that are called options right this is like and and we don't want to see one that says type to be determined want to see a cut sheet that reflects the product you're
going to use okay okay okay so I I believe that there are three things that came up in our comments that the motion would be for final approval with the conditions that a garage door cut sheet be provide provided denser landscaping to screen
the pool and generator indicated and that the windows be simulated divided lights john did you say you might change the roofing material well so I'm not I'm not that concerned about the roofing material because what
he's proposed in his material cut sheet is the asphalt and if he if the owner chooses to go to any of the other two or three options that would be an improvement right so maybe we should put in the motion that optional roofing materials would be acceptable the same
condition we did earlier correct exactly yep asphalt or submit some better yeah asphalt or a cut sheet of improved material so those are four conditions jude do you
have them john I have one more one more question and Tom brought it up about the significance of the house adjacent to it yes that close to the pool would it That's actually a key contributing structure right there yeah would you would it be more considered to that
structure to put a sixft fence up in the back to act as a noise buffer rather than a 4ft fence i mean you put I'm Well that's that's a very good point especially fence is going to be as open it's going to be it's going to be open
it's another one of those typical fences without specifying what they're putting in i mean you I think we owe them that respect to the neighbors put up a little higher fence i agree i I would say absolutely um or the maximum height allowed by the zoning code because I'm
not sure they allow up to a six foot fence well they do in the back i believe they from the back of the house surface or facade line to the end of the property can be six feet if I understand the zoning ordinance correctly which apparently sometimes I don't or at least
you're a little late coming to it or a little late with it okay yeah so I mean the point we're trying to make is obviously with a dense shrubbery and with a with a better taller thicker fence is to shield the neighboring properties from the effect of the Yeah agreed yeah okay can I can I ask are are
you representing that you've been to zoning and they're they're accepting of the the amount of impervious or semi-pervious there are full B building permits and it the building is under construction and they considered that those permits yes okay yeah the zoning ordinance here with
regard to paving is a little um the driveways semi-pervious semi-pervious drainage and if you It looks like everything's covered on this but the the around the the surrounding portion is landscaping you got landscaping in the front you're showing grass too here
right yes the like checkered green yeah that the checkered green is grass which is grass semi-pervious driveway and then the building and then the other papers but Kevin I agree with you i looked at this too and I was like it's it's the holes right it's it's the holes i hear
that i I just I honestly I mean where way it rains here in KMA with all due respect I mean I I'm on the I'm on the receiving end of it at my house right now there were two homes that were built on a split lot that both got variances
for oversized houses and my storm drain floods every single time it rains so all the due respect I mean What I'm concerned about is not just this house but the houses around it that if they're there's constant runoff from this house it's going to affect the other homes around them and I just think
that that's I just I wanted to hear the assurance that that zoning considered that because you know now you can at least say well you know the body that's responsible for that considered it that matters to me i guess the answer is they did they did
and they proved it and in fact we we did not use all of the coverage that they would allow so the reason why is because if it's if it's pavers that's considered 50% coverage that's right i know how pavers
work right awful lot of room no question like even if it's semi-pervious it's still they don't but in terms of the fencing just so we have that understanding section 52560E which is
the I'm sorry 52557E fencing this is number two no fencing may be erected within six inches of a property line if erected by one property owner if more than one property owner is involved you can do it on the property
line so long as they agree in writing um and solid fences or walls located at any required yard area may not exceed 4 feet in height fences may be constructed to six feet in height when located in the rear
so where the pool is I mean you can and then and typically what you're saying is they consider the rear yard from the back of the building back and around correct which would encompass the pool here yes so so that's what we'll do when it when
it gets to the side when it just to be clear that means from here around here would be six feet but it's got to drop to four that is correct beyond the rear and and and it's that
rear section on the upper right that we're most concerned about right but it won't be consistent it'll drop it it's not the first property that does that so we are um Mr kiss we are up to six conditions for approval and I have them listed here i'll go through them in a
moment so I would like to offer you a couple of options that's too many for us to award you final approval this evening however what we could do is offer you um the ability to come and have the review committee
review those six with approval from us pending the uh review committee's approval or you go back and incorporate these six items in your drawings and come back to us next month the choice is yours um well I'd prefer not to come
back if I don't have to i I just can't understand that mr gillan Schwarz uh well either way you're gonna somebody's going to have to come back in some shape or form either to the review committee or to this board so I prefer just tick off what it is
that we're Yeah so Judy here are the six just so you have them i think you already have all of them but let me just go through them we need to see a garage door cut sheet denser landscape uh documentation of denser landscaping screening the pool and the generator cut sheets indicating
simulated divided lights for the windows um an indication that the roof is approved as asphalt or a cut sheet of an of an improved material and lastly a cut sheet and plan site plan indications
of the location of a six-foot fence instead of a 4ft fence around the back of the house um from the back of the house to the rear property line to screen the pool so what we would need is a site plan showing where it's a six-foot fence and a cut sheet of the fence you're
proposing okay yes so those are the six things that I have as conditions of approval so are we are we effectively changing what was a final approval before to something like conceptual approval no no i think all we're doing is because there
were so many revisions there are six things that we want to note in a revised final approval that can be approved by the review committee so long as this body gives the review committee that authority or we ask Mr kiss to come back next
month with all of these documented and we which essentially would be tableabling this for now yeah that's one of the things I was considering yes just table and come back so I throw that open for discussion to our fellow commissioners i think that the review committee does a
great job and I would respect their decision personally as part of the review committee I cover that pretty well any any opinions over here kevin I I'd rather table it but I'll agree that the review committee can handle the
job i'm being very quiet i'm I'm still just really upset that there's so little concern about the neighbors the particularly the key contributing building uh other neighbors
and there's things that you know are a little bit out of our control but with somebody putting a house of this size uh coming before us with all these changes and everything in it uh I I I just think it it's it's a very
unfair thing to do now if this was like maybe like a little lap swimming pool or something but it's 19 ft from the front porch of a key contributing building uh I'd hate to see something like that right in front of my house that I'd be
looking out over and a swimming pool is absolutely not a necessity to enjoy Cape Bay it's a half a block from the ocean and I can't remember exactly what happened 11 months ago uh but we're held
to we're held to the record Tom we are but you know there's an awful lot of things that are different on this plan even though it's stamped that this is this is what we approved in May of last year well I'm very sympathetic to the to the pool and the protection and that's the
reason why I suggested the maximum fence or or you did yoga and I suggested the shrubbery bar i don't think we can go I don't think we can say this is yeah and I don't think we can say that this is so changed that it's an entirely new application for which we would adversely
look on as a pool i think this is this is consistent with the changes we requested to be made yeah and the pool hasn't changed but I think what we have done is at least mitigate its impact with the landscaping and the fence so I'm also sympathetic to what you're saying but I think we're held to this
resolution from May of 2024 if in fact that resolution is accurate with exactly what we did it is it does it does say in these are the drawings that were submitted with it and the pool hasn't changed one bit
we're sure that's not Yeah yeah no I look I went back and and found my drawings from last year i keep them so okay this matches okay m Mr carol we printed exactly what was submitted last time and added that stamp that says this is what was submitted last time we did
not change those drawings one iota okay so I have a procedural question for Chris so you'll prepare a resolution for this it sounds like you're going to make a motion for a final mr kiss will
submit these conditions to me for approval and review and then the resolution can be approved next month if you get me these conditions in the next couple weeks right here's what I would suggest i mean
the if it's going to be final tonight those everything we just went over and the changes that have been proposed by Mr kiss and these revised plans will be incorporated into a resolution that resolution will serve as a basis for the review committee to look through and say "Oh here they are here are the changes
we talked about and that are in writing." And then the other thing we've talked about with this process is we may consider throwing that on a approval and review just to confirm that the conditions have been met so there's some record of that too and that the
review committee satisfied so signed sealed and delivered from the review the resolution yes i mean if if the review committee satisfied that the conditions have been addressed that can that he's still going
to need understanding it correctly the resolution gets prepared review committee reviews the resolution and sees what's been done agrees that that is consistent so that's a resolution that can come to us and be approved correct well that it's it's going to be on the if it's approved as final tonight
with conditions it's going to be on the next meeting um in order to get a construction permit somebody's going to have to confirm that those conditions have been actually satisfied and that would be the review committee correct presumably right yeah so either way either way the final approval isn't
going to happen until the next meeting simply because the resolution won't be approved we're not talking about next Tuesday we're talking about the Tuesday following the resolution he'll you know next Tuesday he could have enough So this this really isn't different than a final approval that we've given before
with conditions that are essentially reviewed and approved by the review committee correct so normally I would say this is too many conditions however you did say that yeah in looking at them they're very very straightforward there's there's not
these are not um design discretionary issues except for the landscaping this is all very straightforward i'm happy to do whatever whatever you'd like me to do it's not that I don't want to see you all but however however you'd like to do it now the only thing is
is I have to get to my client i have to get them to agree and make these selections um so does that have to be by next month or No it's timing our process is really simple we our review committee meets every Tuesday morning so all you would need to
do is is make an appointment with the HPC Secretary Judy Decker to come and visit with us bring us the six things that are being requested as conditions for this resolution and we will review them and if they're approved the resolution is approved however it needs
to be ratified at the next HPC meeting in May a or next one after the review committee meeting I correct right yeah I just don't know if I can get the answers that we need the good news is you have you have three weeks right now whether that's good news for you or not I don't
know but the if they vote on this there's going to be a resolution on it then it's up to you and your client to get the stuff together to get what you need to get Yeah you know close out your permits and is there any is there any time frame on this
the the time frame the latest it would be would be that I that you'd get the resolution in the June meeting i mean I just don't know if I can get in one of the next couple Tuesdays all the Hold Hold on a second if if we if the board the board is going to make a decision
tonight they're going to either vote yes or no if they vote yes with conditions there's going to be a resolution on the next meeting regardless of whether you get the paperwork in with the client and then it's up to you and your client to get that stuff into the review committee so that you can proceed with your permitting and if some of this stuff is
hanging out like the garage door or whatever it is that could hold up closing out the project as you proceed through construction so really the onus is on the applicant to get this stuff in you're under construction right now but you got to you know close out this portion of it right you have to submit
revised drawings i It would be simpler it would be simpler if you could simply come back so maybe the simplest way to handle this is to not vote on this this evening but to table it so that that would give you time to go and be with
your client and come back to the next meeting and that way if all of these are satisfied which it looks like would be fairly simple for you to do we could pass a resolution then and be done with it yeah thank you i far prefer that that's fine great so
we have to get your permission to extend the time frame for tableabling this do you consent to an extension to go to come back next meeting yes okay okay motion to table the application i just wanted to clarify on the conditions regarding the garage door is that
singular or is it plural everything on the ground floor there all all garage doors yeah all garage doors okay yeah so yes thank you it's plural garage doors yes thank you i believe I just made a motion to table okay um so we have a motion on
the table do I hear a second i just confirm i'm sorry so Mr kiss just for an abundance of caution I'm going to put 60 days here do you consent to that just in case you need more time it doesn't If you want to come back early you come back earlier i was actually going to ask you for that okay thank you okay so we
have a motion on the table to table this application that's correct applicant has agreed to wave by Mr ta 60 days for a 60-day waiver seconded by Miss Wilson Strick roll call please oh there's no We don't need one sure you do it's a motion oh
that's right it is sorry mr carol yes miss Wilson Strick yes mr stevenson yes mr hammer yes mr ta yes mr becker yes and Mr curts you were in on this one Mr curts thank you okay thank you Mr kiss
thank you John can we break i'm sorry yes we have a request for a fivem minute break thank you in the meantime while we are having a break perhaps the next group for Thompson at 829 Kierney would like to
come up to the table five minute break yes five minute break so John will reconvene at 810 okay just wanted you to be up here when everybody gets back that's ready yeah I'll wait you can take a break for five minutes if you like so Mr gamble could you please state your
name and what your role in the project is uh my name is John Gamble i'm the contractor for 829 Kernney and it appears that you have a letter from Mora Thompson to represent her this evening yes okay uh we are trying to uh put a wood deck
over top of a fiberglass deck that is not being utilized to its full potential they only have onethird of the center of the deck being used this is only on the second floor right this is only on the second floor the first floor is a wooden deck and it's the exact same
size as this second floor deck which is fiberglass and we intend to cover it with wood and put railing out the same size as the lower deck everything being wood and utilizing the whole deck
pretty much it and it appears that the railings that you're proposing for the second floor new deck will match precisely those on the first floor is that correct all would great kevin we went back and forth we weren't sure whether that was Yeah the whole deck
yeah it was just great jake great janice no comments jim just want to double check the material sheet you keep saying wood oh we're uh I'm not sure what the railing wood is popper i'm pretty sure we're going to be
because we got to make it up to match the existing railing so it's going to probably be popper because the only hard enough stuff that'll last well leather and the deck material is the eBay ep otherwise yeah epay
so your materials checklist says that the railings will be wood and the decking will be wood yes and that's accurate correct correct great that's it for me Mr carol i'm okay i'm okay all right so this is a final
submission correct yep so do I hear a motion to approve final so moved second all right so that's final approval motion for final approval by Mr hammer seconded by Mr stevenson
mr carol yes miss Wilson Stradick yes mr stevenson Mr hammer yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes thank you thank you very much for your time thanks for coming and seeing us in review a couple times to get this all straightened out
thank you okay moving on please to Reinert at 216 Perry Street mr chairman I have to recuse myself i'm within 200 feet thank you Mr stevenson gentlemen could you please state your
name and your role in the project bill Reinard owner and John Halber project architect greetings okay we have here a honest attempt for pure restoration of an 1870s
house um the scope of work is presently limited to new porch roof new porch decking new porch structure and reintroduction of railing um this house
was originally constructed again in late 1870s it's in the Italian 8 style um it had undergone several additions over its years none of which are affected by the current work but u a two-story addition to the rear and a one-story edition next
to that um it's had some unfortunate um work done to it in terms of asphalt shingles put on it at one point um again none of that is the topic of tonight tonight we're truly focused on just the building front and in particular
replacing a completely deteriorated metal roof um whole new foundation system for the front porch and framing system for the front porch which is completely deteriorated and then with that putting back the decking and after
a lot of research and headscratching coming up with a railing style that we hope you agree is what we think is appropriate for the period the metal roofing uh will be the standing seam roof we're going to be reintroducing a h
relatively simple 24inch wood bracket as was shown um on our detail connecting turn not turn wood post wood post um that are routed and doing a silhouette wood ballister style railing um matching the original height of 2 foot five and a
half which Mr renard discovered by some forensic investigation into the building finding remnants of the height of original railing back where the wall where it met the house wall yeah there's this side porch on the house it's mentioned in the historical record from
the city um in the walls of that side porch there are a couple of original columns and they're 6 in square with chamered corners on the side of one column we were able to find paint artifacts that indicated where the
railings had been attached uh the dimensions of the railings and where the son ballisters intersected railing that was from the side porch that faces North Street is that correct correct okay so um are you finished presenting
this question yes okay great so Mr renard has come before us in the review committee a couple of times but um we've been able to do some subsequent research since then and before I pass it off to the rest of the folks on the commission what you're proposing here for the
ballastrade um the new the new guardrail um from where did that design come um I think was looking at similar um railing styles on properties in the nearby area the particular addresses of which now escape me okay great so the only thing
that I before I pass it off to everybody identify is that when we were looking at this previously we did not have the property report before us and it specifically says that the porch had bracketed turn wood posts as opposed to the cutouts and um that that they were
East Lake spindle trim brackets which would be absolutely consistent for an 1850 to 1870 Italian8 simple house and if you look on that street six of the closest adjacent eight homes took photographs of all of them have exactly
the spindled ballisters that are shown in the photographs of what was originally the house before unfortunately they're not there anymore because they've been taken away and I don't know why that happened or when that happened they're there
wait a minute i've got photographs of what's existing right now and the porch is gone speak to to about the railings no we kept all the pieces oh we didn't discard anything we kept everything that we took off the building to be clear Mr chairman they're not in place that he
has them removed filed they're on site they're on a rack and that that includes the ballisters the brackets and the the correct oh and all of those uh B uh the brackets across the top the dowel brackets Yeah
are factory manufactured with Phillips screws which puts them post 1935 which is why we don't feel they were original to the house so I would defer to my commissioners and open it up for questions can I just Sure if you just
press your mic to green thank you okay now we're better we had full approval to replace the spindled railings and the turned columns it was in the process of doing the work that it was brought to my
attention by the crew um that this was not original goods that the columns would have been from around 1890 and what research I've been able to do validated that and the all of the
dowled woodwork across the top which I have all intact took it off intact is every fifth dowel has a factoryinstalled Phillips screw so we knew right away that those are from post
1935 because there weren't Philips screws until then so it was that point that I called and requested a a Tuesday morning meeting with the then current people which Tom was involved in but I don't
know if he was at the meetings warren Copelan was there corbin Cogwell was there at one point yeah I came and run all through it with you yep and and Warren Warren and and Corbin both said absolutely this house would have had son
ballisters and square columns probably 6 or 8 inch well then we took the wall apart in the side porch and we found the 6-in columns john knows this it doesn't matter to me how we put it back together i view myself as the caretaker
of the house here in town i'm going to die and the house will still be here and somebody else will take care of it but we when we discovered that what we were removing wasn't original I said "Let me go back and talk to the committee and
see how they want me to proceed." And so first order was to go and get pictures of a lot of neighboring homes that were built around the same time which I did and that all got submitted it should be in the file warren said the brackets would not have
been what was there but rather would have been something very simple and we tried to find John's office found basically this the simplest bracket that would have been appropriate for that era and
uh Corbin and Warren both said that it would have been saw ballisters when I took the side porch wall apart on the inside we could see paint artifacts on the column where the ballister had intersected a 1 in square about 6 in
down from the top rail and there was another paint artifact that was uh tapered top and bottom which would have indicated a curve intersecting at that point for the brackets for for the s ballisters yeah yeah okay and they're and they're they're not the height of
today they were they were like 26 in I think um the there were only in the whole catalog of Victorian era ballisters that we looked through there were only four that would intersect at those two points
in that fashion and so u we just selected a style that seemed of those four that seemed more uh consistent with the architecture of the house in general but we can go back and put the turn
stuff on i mean that you've answered my question which was where did this where did this ballister design come from so you've answered it so thank you i'd like to defer to my fellow commissioner start over here with I just have a question you said you had pictures of surrounding
homes with the turns and you you said you had some pictures of surrounding homes that look like these we have do we have both sets of pictures well the ones I submitted should be part of the file they were they were I don't by 10 color
glossies and they weren't of the neighboring homes homes it wasn't like the house the house next door has son ballasters um my assignment from the the committee that day was to get photographs of
houses built around the same time the houses right around me are late 1880s 1890s i was focusing if you look at the the report from the city it says the house was built between 1850 and 1872
there's no definite date so I focused on houses that were in the like the 1860s uh 10 North Street uh 10 Windsor um what used to be called the Dolores it's uh
15 North Street I think maybe they're all within two or three blocks of of the subject property but they're not immediately adjacent and one building that I zeroed in on because it has the same roof lines as my building was the
uh Elcott Hotel and it's we're both on opposite ends of North Street mhm and so I found a lot of historic photographs of the Alcott thinking well that had the same roof line the Italian8 style when I find
the railing on that that should give us some clues well every picture I find of it has a different railing turn spindle square spindle sun ballisters every picture changes i'm not surprised because every every 15 20 30 years they rot away and some and somebody puts in
something that looks right at the time i before I get too befuddled on the columns you have found what square round on on the columns the columns yeah square square
6x6 you said correct 6x6 on the side porch with chamered corners right chame corners the chamfer starts 12 in from the bottom sure your mic's on please thank you i'm sorry i was following his example just what we need
so okay more questions yogi no I mean either way looks very very nice because of the street that it's on uh but I think the commission is should be as
accurate as possible even though this does look nice i mean but it's not authentic to the house we do know sand ballisters because you can see the one inch wide paint artifacts down the the side of the
column on the side porch can also see exactly where the railing components intersected um again I I don't have a preconceived idea of how I want the house to turn out when we discovered that what we were
going about the business going about the business of doing was replacing something that was not original and and it was just said here at the table you know every 15 to 20 years the railings rotted out and they replace them well I'm presuming
that's what happened on the property and so it looked like the railings we were taking off or not the railings but the the the top trim the the craftsman style was at least from the 1930s possibly the
1940s the the turn columns uh from what I've learned were circa 1890 or later but the house was built you know potentially 20 to 40 years before that so I only came back thinking that now
that we've discovered what we were doing wasn't the true historical reconstruction of the house but merely mimicking what somebody had already changed on it there's also the point though that the house has been around so long it's had a number of
things done during the period of significance that could significance it's it is I mean we we're faced here with changes that are occurring during the period of significance and it's not necessary all the time to go back to find the original the house right next
door has what you're proposing yeah so two two of the eight houses nearby have exactly what they're proposing six don't however I would like to say that the reason why it's so confusing is because if you do a little research if on this
on this historic document property report it says East Lake spindled trim brackets well well East Lake if you do some research on East Lake these were gingerbread flat cut well let me read let me just read this american
homebuilders in the 1880s replaced flat cut gingerbread ornamental elements that were popular in the 1860s and 1870s so what you're proposing is likely accurate based upon this with lathetuned spindle work for ballisters and wall service
decorate charles Eastake himself criticized the American ad that American adaptation as extravagant and bizarre so it was later combined with Italian second empire to create the San Francisco San Francisco style so I think you guys have done pretty good research
which backs up the research I've done that even though it doesn't match six of the eight houses nearby was likely accurate i'm just questioning where where that exact design came from and I think you're saying that you've got some documentation from a similar period on
the other end of the street that you used 10 North Street what I call it the Dolores it's this second house facing North Street right across from 10 North Street which we don't have any photographs or anything this is speculation great well they're in the
file though the the the houses in the nearby vicinity that have correct but we don't have anything of my my building right couldn't pictures so okay uh the dates that you just ran off
are really very very accurate uh even before 1850 lots of times the porch was supposed to look like just part of the grounds around it and they didn't want any rails at all but then the salt ornamentation became extremely popular
and this is what you were seeing all around there's a lot of examples of it on Colombia Avenue Gurnie Street uh where the fire didn't burn everything down and uh and then later on in one Queen Anne stick style became in a
little bit easier thing was the turned railing uh and then uh by the 20th century they got really lazy and just used square one one and a half inch squares i know I have a lot uhhuh so uh I I I think with
the date of the house uh um that is exactly 1870 was the date that the main state cottage was built and we had railings almost identical to that and I and I know because we had to make a whole lot of new ones and they they were
awful hard to cut out I gotta say but I think it would be very proper in in doing those i just want to point out too when you're recreating uh a historic house like you are you don't have to listen to anybody that says your railing has to be 36 in high off the
ground because your porch deck is probably not more than about 18 in off the ground we we did because all the construction official that before we we did it could be up to 30 in right did he get upset about keeping them it's less than No he he was fine with that i
actually have a problem with it myself though um from a lay safety perspective um the lay person has an expectation that a railing is there it's going to be up to current code um I swallowed that for
this particular project i'm honoring the historical height um but it's kind of like I'll say against my better judgment from a life safety perspective yeah yeah be that careful somewhere else we are low enough that I think brails aren't required by code well the worst thing to do is to sit in your rocker on
the porch and suddenly be able to see the top rail you know that's what how a lot of these look right now yeah if in fact the deck were more than 30 inches above grade I think we'd be having difficult but if you use like a nice heavy top rail on that it has a safety factor for people that want to sit on
the railing and have their cocktail uh and it's still 24 inches off the ground and only 18 inches to go down yeah so known for the landing Mr ch yeah i I think you And no I just wanted to say I think Tom are you done um I just want to
say this is a fabulous project i've watched that house for so many years as everything else has improved and just think oh this the lines of it are just so nice i said I can't wait for somebody to come along and do this so I'll be cheering for you all the way well thanks it's it's been it's been a challenge you
know like this we thought we were off in the right direction and then discovered that you know we weren't and it's it slowed us down a bit but I better let you ask the questions because we're on the time here i I can't say that I'll join Tom in the cheering but I do think
you've have yourself a an opportunity here that you've chosen appropriate materials appropriate design all within the period of significance and I'm in favor of giving you the leeway to choose what you think is best within that so I
think it's fine well thank you Jess i'm happy that it's me too more than most yeah so I been sitting the way it is for a while this this Yeah
just you know created some turmoil and things and in the midst of it I had to switch contractors and architects duty or some of that when John's team got involved they first thing they did was come down and go
through the rack in the back of the building there's a rack of everything that we took off the porch corables the brackets everything mean and that's really great because a lot of times the stuff just disappears oh I Right and you crazy they were taking stock give me
that that's the first thing that he and his Joe Scarpo when they came down let's get all the measurements on that so that that's where we started with with the old stuff kevin so I spend my whole career in evidence-based medicine this
is like evidence-based archaeology so or architecture and uh from my perspective I just am delighted to see somebody who's kind of paying this kind of attention to it so have at it so I just want to thank you for doing the kind of research that you did
because these are the kind of archaeological crazy ways that we can get all confused by six of the eight houses having something that's there that may not be historically accurate because of your research though I think you verified as closely as possible what likely would have been there and I think
you're doing a great job um the only question I have is that that pediment that has the dentals and the scallop tiles in it that's going back in there right it's there i saw it i saw it sitting on next to the side of it off intact you did it's still there to redo the roof uh supports it just says existing shake and dental molding to
remain so I'm I'm assuming that that's what you mean the whole assembly yeah that's great that's what we're calling it but it's the pediment yeah it's the one in the pediment over the main porch on the porch yep okay great great i have no further comments do we want to
entertain a motion for final approval i'd be happy to make that motion i'll second moved by Mr carroll seconded by Mr cameron judy mr carol yes miss Wilson Struck yes mr stevenson
he's he'sating oh that's right i'm sorry mr hamron yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts yes thank you thank you this was a challenge because even since last we spoke with you new stuff has come to light and we've gone back and forth and
this has been I think a a really good process to try and un unpack this very educational for myself and let me commend the applicant for having the diligence that he did to take it this far thank you Mr riner thanks John well and the two guys I mentioned that your
predecessors Yeah corbin and Corbin and Warren were both very you know instrumental in in helping you putting me in the right direction you know thank you and Tom and Well Tom was the first one yeah he came over initially and and it's because of
Tom this wasn't part of anything we talked about tonight but Tom pointed out that all of the glass in the house with some minor exceptions original wow it's got all the bubbles and some of them were broken right but once you once you
told me that I some old windows people were taking them out uhhuh uhhuh that's what I did too okay next on our list please is Carlson Glazer at 820 Su Avenue good
evening we saw you sleeping back there this is very entertaining better than cable I'll tell you really but but you can watch us on on my husband's watching now
um we have two additional pages to share with the board um sheets A3.3 and A3.4 okay terrific and could you please state your name and your role with the project yes christine Carlson Glazer and I'm the property owner okay and Deborah
uh Deborah Salonwite the project architect thank you the floor is yours she too so you um you all should be somewhat familiar with this project we did come to you uh for the review the Tuesday morning um
both the client and myself we it's very simple application we are proposing to raise an existing historic home to better conform with current flood standards um chairman was kind enough to draft a letter that was shared with um
consultants who have been integral to the process um dated February 19th 2025 it's in your packet i don't know if everyone had a chance to it's a really long packet i apologize there's a lot of pages um conditions of your s or I
should say suggestions made by the board um were all implemented in the drawings that were submitted to you so on sheet A 1.0 we've highlighted in kind of a yellow color the front steps area this is really the bulk of the project in
addition to lifting the house um we now need new stairs and some new landscaping um the new foundation will be covered in brick to be sympathetic to the existing chimney um the stairs to the left which
are an existing sun room that you can actually see on um page A2.0 and then again on sheet A2.1 those stairs will be removed um they are not necessary to any emergency
egress to or from the home um adding a second set of stairs on the front elevation seemed a bit excessive given the new height um so those stairs have been eliminated the stairs to the right of the home that sit between the primary dwelling and the carriage house have
been turned and held closer to the to the home itself um the front steps leading to the main entrance of the structure will be modified to include brick paving and then the last request that was made by the board after the
reviewing committee was landscaping and potentially regrading the site andor adding planters um given the petite size of the site we have opted not to put a wall around it and lift the the ground
around the home but rather to add brick planters at the front elevation um those brick planters are shown in our drawing on a 3.0 um existing home is in the top lefthand corner and then the proposed new front elevation is the second image
on that page again everything that it will change is highlighted in this off yellow color um in addition to raised planters at the front of the home you can also see the there is an existing door on that sun room to the left which will be removed
when the steps are removed um one of the two pages that I just brought to you does document the adjacent windows um so we know the size of the mullions the mullion pattern everything will be replicated to match those two existing
windows one question I should say the after some further consideration the client would prefer instead of having nine consecutive risers to the front door to actually have four risers and then an intermediate landing which is the second
sheet that was circulated a3.4 Four is an illustration of four risers a graceful landing and then the rest of the risers required to get us up to the new elevation so just to clarify are you I didn't mean Are you finished i'm finished okay great
so just to clarify folks that most of the 8 and 1 half by 11 documents here are documents that are created by uh an historical preservation specialist in in proposing to FEMA how they might be able to adjust the home in order to lift it
to obtain funding for FEMA flood plane mitigation 70 70% Yeah 75% 75% up to account so these folks came to us at the review session and we reviewed
what the historic preservation specialist from the um firm that uses that folks use to send their work to FEMA and between the five of us we came up with um another way to do it that would be more pleasing and acceptable to
our owner which is why I wrote the letter so that it shows that what we are proposing collectively and recommending differs from what the historic preservation specialist did and and in our view in every way
it's quite an improvement agreed and they actually agreed as well they did oh yeah to me your letter was accurate where it says the homeowner concurs and the homeowner concurs and the homeowner concurs so got the impression you you agreed just to get the background because there's a lot of documentation
here that in some ways is it's not irrelevant but it's less terine than the discussion we're having the only question I have um before going around the room here is um what's the status of the zoning very good question so we have submitted
the drawings to the zoning officer um Christen I have reached out to the zoning officer actually when I first was notified that the grant was coming I spoke to the zoning officer um and I have spoken to him since we met in review he said as long as we are going
this way um and we can raise lift the house up that um there was not a zoning issue do have to apply or give him a a documentation um and apply for construction permits but I can double
check that with the zoning officer to make sure once we have a design I think and we are not increasing any impervious coverage our new steps sit on top of what is currently concrete so we're improving them we're making them brick um but we're not changing impervious
coverage the home will be lifted in in its footprint there is no addition being proposed um the construction documents are being generated predominantly by a structural engineer who's doing a soil boring test and evaluating the existing foundation and then the proposed lift
and it appears that even with the double set of steps with the intermediate landing that the foremost riser coincides with what the front of the current retaining wall sides of that step/porch approach into the front yard
yes great that was our intention so in essence you have not um even though it's a non-conforming pre-existing condition you've not exacerbated it yes got it and just just to confirm the zoning code section
525-73A raising a portion of or an entire structure to meet the minimum flood standards for the city shall be permitted without the need for variance relief provided that the structure shall not not be otherwise expanded or relocated that's not happening here correct further provided that no
variance relief shall be required for the construction of stairs necessitated by the increase in height for any building here which is what you're proposing to do need access to the raised building exactly correct so if I'm if I'm understanding that it it means that it's correct that you checked
the final box we that's spoken with the zoning officer yes yeah and so so that's that's good is good Kevin so this I think was really the first time we've seen a a project come into us that's just a directed you know
raising of the house and so we learned I think you know a fair amount from this we saw the materials that were sent to the homeowner from the um historical architect and all we do is applied our standards to it and and it seemed to work pretty well um I I don't have any problems with the way we're we're
approaching this i think this is good for approval okay okay one question regarding the um sighteline window are they clad or plain wood they're wood with simulated divided light okay but wood right no cl they're wood yep okay but my opinion on it you
know as a a flood adaptation is very clean and respectful of the contributing property thank you yeah it looks like a good project well researched and um I agree with the landing i think those stairs that go
straight up they're not very inviting i don't think they're I also don't think they're as safe like when you're going up it's So thank you it's a long way down yes instead of two ways down may I uh I I I think that um and I I was
I was conscious of seeing the suggestion to FEMA and then the review letter that we produced and and how nicely it transitioned um what would have passed for for FEMA approval to what would be acceptable here and um being the owner
of a colonial revival structure myself um I really think the use of the brick is an enormous improvement to um show that much brick u in contrast with the house this this is um going up a lot i
mean it's the low lowest lowest parts of town it's going up a lot and and I think that um the the good the good news is that it's it's it's on a corner so that so that even though you see it it's not right next to another house that's much
lower and it and it appears to tower over anything but the corner so I think that's that's been pretty sensitive and uh it's it's a it's a good lift i mean it really preserves everything except makes it higher and I think makes it look better and we our firm actually
just lifted the house across the street so it's that corner is is all rising together well well that's even better the the only other thing that I thought was well you know in in terms of mitigating height um when you get around to replacing your fence you might think
about having one that's a little bit more that that that blocks the height a little bit more okay i take it you're going to leave the existing picket fence right now that was the intention be a good idea to paint it white too it It is painted white no no no it's not i do
have it powerwashed every two years this is an off year it's a cedar fence it is cedar tough to hold paint but I think I think with your with your house as raised and your red brick I think a white fence would would look terrific in
front of it use a solid stain uh rather than than paint then paint yeah yeah and that get that will hold much much better on it and the more that wood weathers and gets power washed the better the stain's going to hold going to hold it because Yeah
any other comments Mr carl um I I don't think so i'm very very pleased with it i will say uh from having voted around town after some floods that's got to be like the absolute lowest area in Frog Hollow
everything comes right down to the the plug i I voted by that i used to live at 933 so I voted by the house and I can't believe it took this long to get it ready well I thought you're going to say you swam you swam by it i believe I
applied to FEMA five years in a row so it's a persistence did you say five years ago or five years in a row five years in a row i I was this Yeah just persistence I guess mr carts I think it's a great topic me
too yeah i only have one comment and that is um we just need to have for our field inspector a cut sheet of the windows indicating verifying that they are exterior wood primed the cut sheet you gave us tonight does not clearly
indicate that okay so all we need is that sure that that happened other than that one one last quick comment just you know since that house sits right on the corner it's a beautiful white house the red brick that's going to go around the base i think that's going to be dramatic
looking at that i think Jim brought the best thing up it's on the ankle it's got to be beautiful you can't compare it to anything around it's stands alone it's like you're on the island yeah and and the red brick's going to break up some of that height increase it's such a
unique site i mean it's very majestic I say float to that area so shall we entertain a motion for final approval i'll move to final approval moved by you want to do subject to cut
sheet oh just subject to the submission of the cut sheet seconded by Mr curts roll call please mr carol yes miss Wilson Strick yes mr stevenson Mr hamron yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts
thank you thank you very much thank you very much for your time and thank you for the Tuesday sessions those are enormously helpful oh I'm glad they're helpful and you've been through a long a long journey so far so yep hopefully we're close to the end thank you nice
work there it is i buried it into the other buried okay moving on to our final new business agenda item is heat coded 1283 Lafayette Street
hello well hello there thank you for fitting me in yes I appreciate it uh good to be back um so I am Pamela Fine from Fine Architecture i'm the project architect i'm here tonight representing my applicants John and Carolyn Heathcoat i believe they gave you a letter um that
gave me um authorization so this is a big and small project um kind of I guess it depends on how you go about doing it um the biggest part of this project is the foundation um I originally met with
them earlier in the year they had called me out to the site to discuss a rehab inside and I enter the house and it is completely gutted um and we walk through the house and the foundation is literally crumbling below my feet um
wood joists are splitting the front wall is sagging i believe the clapboard is actually holding up the wall um so I immediately said "We need some foundation repair and quick." Um so we I noticed that the crawl space was very
shallow um in some parts it was only about 3 in and in some of the taller parts it was about 12 in uh and I said "Well this is not acceptable for access building code and whatnot." So I said "We we have to lift it regardless to do
a new foundation." So um my suggestion was to lift it to get the two-ft high crawl space um repair um any kind of wood beams wood floor joists um the new foundation will have a spent porridge on
the outside um I know it changes the look of the street so that's where I'm kind of torn um the other part of that is excavating the crawl space uh to give them that twoft crawl that part also scares me because still the house is
that low to the ground so I'm worried that rot will continue to persist um and just affect this home for years to come if we don't actually get it slightly higher um the next part of the project
is the siding so we're taking off the asbestous luckily since the house is gutted we saw the clapboard from the inside so we know there's clapboard there uh so we're going to replace that have the uh same exact exposure um and
um the next part would be um if we do decide to do the two foot high lift we would need slightly higher landings and steps which is why I have the deck uh marked off um those will be wood right now I have pressuretreated wood um
specked out but we're obviously open to all kinds of wood ep um probably being the nicest of the those choices um and the other major part was the front door so the front door is not original um it
basically is has the X molding um a diamond grill on the front um the the trim on the outside looked like it had been touched uh especially above the door um where it looked like possibly
transom was there at one point they covered it with plywood they did another X um trim design so my clients had found another um federal style style home that they really thought was appealing uh
from the street so we borrowed from that we took the front door design we took the front door trim design um that transom uh we turned it into more of like a fan light look um so that's where we came up with that you'll see that in the packet on the M1 sheet towards the
back um and that just basically shows what that house looks like it's very very similar to the Heath Coats um but we we drew from that as inspiration um the other changes are windows uh so there's only one existing
window on this project and it's up in the attic in that front dormer uh it's a 6 over6 wood double hung so we're proposing a um all new Colby windows um non-clad pre- primed um all wood
obviously and uh those will be installed throughout the house where we had existing double hungs originally um other there you'll see various other uh window sizes and shapes um we're just replacing light for like for like um and
finally we had a a lighting change um we wanted to have a sconce light over the front door just as that inspiration house has so uh that basically rounds up the project and new shutters I should add that
yes functional wood shutters yes so we're open to you know what what your um recommendations are for the foundation repair the lift so this is you are submitting for this is a final final approval it's it's
final yeah so are you requesting an approval for the lift yes okay so any motion we would make would be can would no variances yeah um if we find out we need a variance it's back to just excavating and setting the house back
down to its original height i believe it's it's it's um usually the case with a lift that we see an elevation certificate exactly and we're not in a flood zone so this is purely just a crawl space issue so they don't they don't have one because they're not in a flood zone right so I I do commend you
in in recommending and and I would say proposing that the mishmash of window light numbers you're doing six over six everywhere which would have been highly appropriate at at that time given the size of glass manufacturing so
that's very well done okay so Kevin I I think this is just a good project i think you know obviously correcting the crawl space is critical to making the whole thing work um got to have a solid foundation and so forth and uh um you
know I've seen what uh actually correcting that can do in the house that's next to me um it's a 106 Washington and uh they did a great job underneath that house not only cleaning up the existing but you know elevating it a bit as well i think they just I
think it's just a good project the rest of it I think bringing the house back up to speed and and up to um the design standards for that that era I think is terrific again same same comment about as the last one it's great to see this work happening great
pamela one question regarding the windows the the grills yes are they going to be simulated simulated divided okay fantastic and again I agree with Kevin this is really a beautiful job thank you bringing it back to what it should be thank you
um I the only question I have is about the door yes our page 16 of our design standards has appropriate types of doors yes and this the example at the top on that page
or 37 it's not page 16 that was something else we were talking about um a plain transom over a solid wood door would probably be more accurate in terms six panel period yeah because it was a
yearround probably worker's house um but that would be my only okay consideration okay thank you so let's ask are you would that be a condition of the approval that you are
requesting i'd like to hear what other people say about it i guess I'm the next picked it out they saw the inspiration house which we I'm the next other people uh really really nice job here uh and particularly you're
you're you're finding the siding and taking off the the the asbestous and gone back to real wood collabor the um the lift is 3 feet it's it's 2 feet from grade height so right now the the crawl
is basically at grade height so it'll be just shy of two feet it's going to be maybe 1 foot 10 or so and the point I was going to make about that is it's it's not so significant as to change the um the the impression of the height of the building being jacked way up so So
that part I I appreciate i think it's a very very nice job Pamela thank you one of very m nice jobs we're seeing tonight too the really major restorations had a good night i I once all that board uh all the flooring and
everything is gone is there any consideration of going down when you're that high up versus lifting a whole house that's what I was saying we're we have to lift it anyway to redo the foundation so we could excavate under
that to give them that twoft crawl so that is that's option B um and if we find out that lifting this house is going to create variances because it's in setbacks we we're going to do that so I just wanted to throw that out there for you guys because I know it it's a
change you know in the way you're perceiving it from the street so if you guys are are open to the actual twoft lift that would be our preferred two feet and it it sounds like the HPC would like to see it as low as possible given
where it is uhhuh so I if you're looking for a raise right if it requires variance relief you would just put it back down hbc's Yeah preference but if the HBC is okay with the raise they could potentially go for that as well
yeah and if we do have to put it back down we'll take precaution to make sure soil is not you know pushed up against and I feel like that front porch is probably settled and pitched back to the house which is why all that rot occurred on the front wall so we'll we'll make
sure that everything is is buttoned up that's fine is that because of the building height requirements is that what you're running into no not at all not at all because the building is over on setback um so lifting it vertically it's not a flood zone so technically
it's kind of that gray area i guess I looked at it underneath It was scary i I agree with the front door uh it's a federal house i had federal house i mean usually
the doors were solid but I could see the storm door made out of wood right really showcasing the front door without glass okay but besides that this is wonderful thank you i mean it's
a gateway down yeah yeah so my icon would be a engaging the discussion about the front door because what's interesting if you look at what's there it appears as if that the wood panel that has all the different pieces in it may have been a transom at some
point and what you're proposing is turning that into a transom but then adding the larger pediment above that right so I'm wondering if a a a more maybe um
appropriate solution would be to put the transom in but eliminate the extra pediment height and just put the crown molding on top of the transom or simplify yeah got okay it's a
worker's house well the in the front have a p small pedal right over them so a slightly larger pediment before the front door would also be something common in that era ah so there's another and and and
and you've designed a very handsome pediment to go on top there too so um what do we think about that so I I think what we're agreeing to is the transom i think we're all okay with the transom the real question is what's the acceptability of the larger pediment or
not actually it's not really a pediment it's an intabe yeah yeah the impediment is triangular i'm going to have to look that up not a decorative little star thing but just plain uhhuh
so you would be okay if we left it exactly as it is except for the transom just being divided into what four lights um no i mean did I put words in your mouth i didn't mean to
i I think what what Yogi said it it would be a just a solid piece of glass solid right i think the most important thing these houses were the solid front doors that was the architecture not not glass
right it was just solid wood okay but the trans up top was nice right solid wood door with single leg transom and are we okay with the intabure
you okay with that for one now that I know what it is mhm great so the only other thing that I would like to add is that um we don't that I could find have any window cut sheets that
unless there unless I miss them did I miss them no so I just had basic um from pulled off of Kobe's website you just you just mentioned KBY in your material sheet correct so what we would need to have just as a condition of approval is cut sheets indicating that
they're exterior wood primed and simulated divided lights sure so I believe that the three conditions here are I only have one more question sorry when you raise when you raise the building up who are you going to walk out the front
door on to we have to put steps so nothing larger than No no we weren't going to do any it was basically going to be a um I have two steps shown but I was looking into the building setback definition and they do allow uh a
landing if you were lifting the house so we could do a landing and a step down it's not going to be anything bigger than 5x5 yeah I I think a landing would be nice showcase the door okay so I'm going to add
that as a supplement to condition number three so one is that we see window cut sheets with the exterior wood primed and simulated divided lights we are okay with the two-foot raising of the first floor or leaving it at the existing
floor elevation and third recommending and approving the design as is however with a solid wood door that has a single light transom above it and if raised a landing in front of the door john on the window we need to be able to show that the windows are the same size as the
existing ones oh I'm sorry that that Thank you i I put that in my other notes and forgotten to say it i do have the dimensions on the existing and the new i have window um uh window schedule showing existing new and
all the numbers matching and labeled and that would include the same thing with the trim oh trim yeah the trim should be you know something to that fits in the character of the window okay so Pamela the issue is is we've talked about this on a little but the issue is
this that um when the windows are being replaced in a contributing home the existing windows and the trim are removed right so what that means is when our field representative goes out to verify that the windows are the same size and the trim is the same configuration of what was there it's
already gone and there's no way to compare it therefore what we're seeking is documentation of that before it's removed from the home so that we can verify what's installed matched what previously existed okay makes sense put a tape measure take a picture great so all of that is defined as as clearly as
we can on the materials checklist that's why Thank you Kevin i Right so that's the fourth condition which um I I'll just call it a window schedule trim to provide the information requested on
the materials checklist including trim if you have that little front stoop coming out the like the pad are you going to have um railings on it or I had a railing on the one side um just because that side would be a farther
drop off than the one that is actually over the the porch so I don't know if I just wanted to hear that whether we had we whether you had a plan for a railing or not when will you know whether you will be lifting the house or not very soon we're
going to apply for permits very soon so I would like to suggest that we table this and that you come back to us um next month with these four things and the decision made about raising it or not it will just avoid any potential confusion in the future if we put her
first on the agenda we could put you first on the agenda and and it'll avoid having to have those conditions um with all the other things seen by somebody else would you be willing to table it Pamela yeah that's fine mr solicitor
we'll just have Miss Fine fill out pamel are you still helping Paul Bergen finish up a I drove by that the other day a fantastic job absolutely wonderful we just want it finished i want to see it yeah
yeah another one I know well Pamelar that was a bear so you have a motion to table okay so do I hear a motion to table this project
i thought you made it but I will uh motion to table the application um subject to the applicant waving the the uh the the 45day rule motion to table by Mr tesla seconded by Miss Wilson Strick
thank you Mr carol yes miss Wilson Strick yes thank you Mr stevenson yes mr hammer yes mr ta yes mr becker yes mr curts thank you thank you thank you Pamela
should we keep this for next time so um we're out of paper i would so how do we want to How do you want to handle that Judy do you want them to keep this packet for next month and just bring in the extra You don't have to
change the foundation i'll have a new pipe drawn for the elevation and maybe I'll show I'll show the So just bring in the sheets anything you change and I'll have So is everybody Is it okay if we all
just keep our own or do you want to have No you back to me i'll pass them all back pass them back to Judy although I got a bunch of Oh the what is it we're pacing uh the the
latest one oh this one yeah because she's it's tabled and All right that's good yeah all right i'll keep I tabled another one i wonder but that one was going to change so guys that's true you can keep your own cop i've got a bunch of scribbles and notes on mine so if you want to keep your own copy you can no I
scribbled on that agenda i scribbled on both can I so we have uh no more new business appears as if we have no members of the public in the audience so apparently
John can I make a comment can I make a quick comment you may um I just I just wanted to make the note uh it's funny that you happen to say it um about Cassell's and the fact that you know we don't really have a shoe store now you know I mean without it because what I understand are actually they're going to do is still sell shoes and high-end
shoes and handbags um on the I don't know whether it's on the second floor the jewel and the jewelry is going to be on the first i don't know but anyway that's that's the plan as I heard it that my wife made a similar comment and it what struck me as I was listening to her was you know Washington Street is
our shopping district and for those of us that are permanent residents what you really want to make sure is you have the services in the town that you normally would take care of we have a we have a grocery store we have you know we had a shoe store that was everyday shoes not
just high-end shoes you know had two sho two shoe stores cuz had had an outlet that's true um and what we're what we're seeing I think is like the shoe stores either tend to be you know kind of like trinket stuff or really high-end stuff so what we're doing is we're catering of
course to the tourists you know that come to town which we have to do i mean we're we're only a you know eight month or six month you know operation but but I think one of the things that and I'm I'm sorry Lorraine's not here to hear this is I think you know one of the things that is important to our city is
that we start to preserve those yearround services um that you know we use in our everyday lives um that it doesn't all wind up being t-shirt shops and you know tricket jewelry and high-end stuff that you know nobody can basically afford or want to afford
anymore um you know and that sort of thing and you know the kind of things like just you know the places you can get a decent set of clothes jeans shirts you know those kinds of things so when the jewelry is he's planning on moving to Queen M to sell that's what that's what I think is happening i don't think
you could run two shots move it all over there with diamonds on the second floor and stuff on the first highend stuff you would think he's going to retain both of them as queen an is my understanding really as far as jewelry should make both jewelry
wow okay guys in the in the interest of moving this meeting forward I just want to make comment i think that's important for our city planning a pretty big business okay so since there's no public comments um Mr stevenson presented to city council I'm sorry the planning
commission our off streetet storage amendment would you like to give us an update of what happened on March 25th sure i mean uh I was asked by the chairman to do a presentation regarding the uh proposed ordinance for um uh parking on private property of RVs
trailers etc i gave them a little genesis of how it started that we were talking about when the city was going to have a new ordinance about having parking underneath houses which they ultimately didn't do we got into a discussion here about towns like Sea
City where they have an apron in front of these garage doors and there's 30 cars parked all over the sidewalk likewise looking from a streetscape we said "All right well maybe we could take this to uh parking like in front of a contributing building or any any
building in the historic district." Mhm and uh uh so I presented something like 10 or 12 different sample ordinances uh and Chris did a great job of whittling them down into a workable ordinance so I was just asked to go and
say the HBC is in favor of this so again not to step on toes I made it clear we were coming at it from our perspective streetscape and I recognized that a lot of the other parts of it setback etc
were really their perview or zoning but uh it ultimately I did say we're in favor of it just for the streetscape and um that ultimately we also supported it because it really benefits our tourists and our yearround residents having a
tidy town where you don't have these big trailers and RVs hanging off of driveways and I mean they I guess they so we had all approved it from HPC which is why you made the recommendation on behalf of HPC planning commission
and what was the status of it after that presentation i've never heard anything did they vote on anything you just made the presentation we were we were both there they just said "Okay well there was I I wasn't there jake I was there but I
for But yeah but I think they just can't recall they I think they tended to agree but I don't think there was any final so they didn't take action i don't think they took action i need to go back and look at um because I took notes that night and I believe there was some next step that they wanted to take and it
might have been um Yeah there was definitely they didn't definitely didn't take an action there was some next step but I I don't recall it either because I I did catch the discussion but they were u they sounded with your they did sound receptive well w with your explanation I
think they understood where it was coming from and they understood what the context was and I think even uh Craig the board engineer had indicated look this isn't really it's not even a development regulation but they brought it here in an exercise of good
government like let's all talk and comment on this thing because it does kind of touch on streetscape and you know where things are placed on a line of sight for pedestrians right we can look What the There was some next step but I
John I I don't either i so I'm I'm blanking on it too here's what I'll do i was like some laser i'll go back and look at the um that the It wasn't very dramatic it wasn't no but they were receptive let's put it this way so let me go back and look at the meeting notes from the planning commission meeting
that night and we can check on what the status is what we need to do but thank you very much Mr stevenson okay sorry for forgetting what happened but next um we do have and please everybody put it on your calendars we verified that the special meeting for the historic district map with the public is
scheduled for Monday June the 9th from 4 to 6:00 p.m in this space and what has to happen is there has been a letter that's been drafted um by our solicitor i reviewed it made a few um proposed edits added some
information about uh basicallyformational stuff about how this would affect you as a homeowner being in the historic district or not and our solicitor looked at that said "This looks good." And as far as I know
Judy you are in the process of sending those notification letters to the affected property owners is that correct no not yet not yet okay um we identified all the affected property owners we had yes yes they were they were all involved
in a um a grant a statewide grant i said it not to me oh sorry i'm sorry um the letters under review with the administration he's going to take a look at it i'm meeting with Paul on Monday to discuss the mailing
okay the certified mailing so first it has to be approved by the administration i had some concerns about the 200 ft notification i don't think that's necessary in this case paul was going to look into that sorry I don't understand
why Why is the administration approving notices informal notices we're giving out have I missed something i think we were I He hasn't looked at it yet yeah I think that the the When you say the administration specifically who do you mean is
approving the letter that we drafted before it's sent out to the effective the the city manager and the the board manager Paul Dietrich okay Mr solicitor so if I can why don't I look into this notice issue and I can
we can you know it is correct Chris though that we're sending this stuff as an informal m it's not a matter of legal notice we've always said we're going to send this out as a matter of information correct so that we can get a interested group of people in here there is the legal portion we're getting ahead of
legal portion we're giving a you know this is a supplementary notice to the public notice that would be required when it gets to the planning board phase but we wanted to have control over the messaging and exactly be the you know entry point for this so yeah I'll I'll I'll talk to the city manager about the
status of the noticing but we have uh a draft final notice I think with the sort of legal things that I put in there and John's you know more uh accessible context i thought we copied him maybe we didn't because he said he Jim I do try
to read my email but we'll we'll make sure I can quickly turn you indicated that you were you were interested in taking a look at so we want to make sure you and I'll turn it around for you all right I'll send that to you tonight that's quick you know we're going to try to expedite the
mailing i think we have Let me see how many weeks one two three so the other question Judy is six seven weeks not a whole lot of time really now so maybe the discussion might be at the very least I think we want to give the people that will be that are not in that will
be in as a result of this change want to get them involved i think maybe the question is do we go to 200 foot and include people that are already in so that's you know that's something I can discuss with the city manager but I don't think anybody's disputing the idea
that if you're going to if you're not in now and you would be in by this change they should get those are definitely the people that would be on the list so the other question is which is the appropriate map who didn't
get it today tom I got them thank you john I have mine yep thank you so the the blue section on the first map okay is I can have it too the existing
that's just just to show what's being added the blue is what's already in now today this is and then everything that's tan I think is what will be added okay and then the tan is the final giving
effect giving effect right so the tan map the tan map is the is the map we're using the blue map is the map that just is indicating which have been added prior or subsequent to the prior map great got it everybody see that pretty
clearly everyone mhm so this is the map that we had approved um in August of last year at our at our meeting if if you promise it is okay all right so it sounds like
the next steps are we'll make sure Jim that you get a copy of that letter appreciate it so you can um make any edits you would like to propose chris will check with the city manager to find out the process for approving that letter and a process for identifying who the recipient should be in terms of the
affected property owners right right and there's no there's no dispute I think at this table that anybody that's not in now that would be in as a result of the change should at the very least Totally agree right totally agree that's the whole point of it we missed that one
we're we're uh we're inviting trouble all right so if you guys look and look at the um the table at the upper leftand corner Judy this is what this constitutes what 84 properties I think it is i think it's 86 86 but yeah I'm
quite sure it's 86 and are we proposing that any more than 80 those 86 property owners receive this letter your letter proposed a 200 foot list i don't I don't have a 200 foot list okay
i don't know who's going to develop that 200 foot list i'll I will talk to the city manager about Okay who's going to be on the notice list all right thanks perfect we'll make sure we confirm that so the only other thing we need to make sure of is that those letters are sent
out as certified more than 30 days before June 9th is that correct so that's that's an elective portion i would say no less than 10 days but if we want to The more notice the better that's our target wasn't it Judy
my goal is to get this done as soon as possible that's why I'm meeting with Paul paul's given me a big window on Monday to work on this so we're going to go over the database make sure we've got all the 86 properties in line i've already made an Excel database so it we
it should be easy to to get that done 28th the only the only point I'd make about the time Monday yes this coming Monday i think we have I think we have plenty of time uh and and and although it may be good to get it out expeditiously sometimes if you send out
notices too early people put it aside and they don't calendar it and they don't remember it so I would say let's not make it too soon so so you know yeah I would say the earliest we're going to get it out of here is probably going to be the week of
May 12th so that's about a 3 week period three weeks just seems them to show up getting it out two or three weeks ahead is okay but four weeks like Jim says I think it's just like they might be
annoying but it's like the forget about um until something possibly possibly within the last week of follow-up mailing just first class no you just got to The secretary doesn't
want to do two mailings we'll do one mailing if you think the 12th is too early then we'll do we'll mail it on the 19th i think one is sufficient because all we're doing is letting them know this is the start of a multi-board process come to the HPC which the planning board will then
review what we do i wasn't suggesting we had to do it i was suggesting might increase the it might increase the the the attendance a little bit so Jude if you had him out by the 19th that would be three weeks ahead of time opportunity does that really sound like a reasonable
goal may 19th okay great okay then I think what we want to do is uh maybe after our next meeting or Sorry Janice
i I just thought if we want if wanted to get our message across in a more general way we could just submit a press release to Star and Wave they'll probably print it and if we just say we're we're having this meeting because some people feel
like it's a benefit and some people feel like it's a a problem and we want to hear what people think well a lot of the the things that are coming out now the city's doing a pretty good job in terms of issuing its own press releases so you
know maybe use that mechanism as the as the reminder instead of the second mailing and the heralds on the newspaper of record right it is and and generally they'll they'll pick up what you want to tell them that's important but I just
mentioned that the city does issue press releases regularly and they they they've improved that process recently it's it's now in the um it's now the role of Casey Ratigan to do that so and and the stuff that's coming out is pretty good talk to Casey i I can do that and maybe what we
can do is just condense the letter that we're sending out to these folks essentially well essentialize it condense it and give her something and maybe would you like to review that as well that's fine yeah i mean I'm just the point I make is that doing the city route with the city mechanism will
probably guarantee us better coverage and when do you guys think that press release ought to go out a week before that'd be great yeah yeah okay so I can speak with Casey about that
okay now the other big issue there weeks because you know these publications don't act that quickly it's a weekly pub right yeah well it depends on whether you have an electronic version or not so let's just look at star and wave is is usually a Monday weekend to Monday so so
the 9th is a Friday so let's just say if I if I ask Casey to release it on her about May 1st well they probably if if it's the PR person here they know when they have to get it out casey yeah yeah okay because all that by the way most of that is put online the next day now
right yeah yeah okay oh okay okay all right so that would be Oh that's Memorial Day weekend so I'm just going to say by May 30th okay however what are we going to do for
those two hours how do we want to go about organizing how we present this i knew you I knew you were going to come up to this the substance of the meeting that's that's kind of a big deal right right so my question is do we want to form a
subcommittee to do that work or how would you like to go about deciding how we are going to present this map amendment to the public june John I mean this really was Warren's baby initially
wasn't it i mean it was but you could also trace it back to city council two city councils ago essentially Warren and Zach put together the original map that hasn't changed much it just didn't it wasn't there was not enough city council support for it
at that time and it languished and so we've starting last year we started to say "Hey we really need to make this happen." So that's the question guys how do you want to how do you want to organize that presentation to the public are you anticipating push back from Sure
absolutely sure why well and that's what's interesting Yogi because if you read what we wrote if there are no contributing properties that will be added within the historic district which means that the effects of this are actually quite minimal to all
those property owners because all it really means is if you're going to do some sort of addition or renovations to your home it needs to come before HPC but the the requirements are way way less stringent if so we know
what the requirements are for non-contributing homes and properties in our standards so we put a pretty significant little description of that in that letter what the implications are nevertheless it is one
additional process that folks would have to go through if they're one of these 86 properties that process or cost it's It's both you hardly ever have the process without an intended cause and I I don't think if if I'm a homeowner
coming in here that doesn't know squat about this i'm all You probably have heard how tough HPC is throughout town it's like "Oh HPC I got to go to HPC." Well what is that actually going to mean to a homeowner that's getting sucked
into this and is it really that bad and is it you know may we maybe think about what are the most common approved in review type of applications that come on a Tuesday and get zipped out with an approval and it doesn't hold them up one
bit this is exactly you should be on that committee for what we're going to present on June the 9th what we cover on Tuesday morning that's that's but that that is that is the bulk of what this board does is is that right this the kind of smaller stuff that gets
gets zipped in and gets zipped out so I would want to highlight that kind of thing and okay yeah this board's going to review the big stuff we'll review we're going to review garages we're going to review pools we're going to review houses and additions but if you got to do a new roof you might have to
come here if you got to do siding you know those kind of things are on the line but on non-contributing houses which every one of the people in that room are going to be I mean it really does that mean comes down to the difference between a lot and total freedom and and a regulated process that
isn't so bad right that's really devil's what is the benefit of it that's the other thing the state of the state of New Jerseyy's historic preservation office suggested this as much they would but so isn't
isn't there isn't I think there is a benefit because when when we consider it a unified historic district then there's more of a sense that the streetscape kind of belongs to everybody so so a non
a non-contributing homeowner can be more secure that the streetscape that charmed them and why they bought the home is not going to be all of a sudden changed in a dramatic way by some
other non-contributing homeowner who decides to do something that is inappropriate it's it's really protection however it's also what Yogi said because we put this in the the letter when Steven was here doing the research to do the upgrading of the
codes he did a survey of all the properties that had sold within those last I think it was 15 months something like that the properties that were in the historic district on average were 20% higher sale value than the ones that weren't but the but the goal really the goal instead if I can finish it's kind
of important point I was going to make to Yogi um historic district boundaries and I've worked on these for for the state they are not drawn like this anymore this would never happen all these missing teeth just cause a lot of confusion
no this that's why the initial the initial suggestion came from the state to warren to straighten out the boundaries feedback to give these people no you're right and then another one is just plain fairness so because with the missing teeth a nextdoor neighbor might
not have to go before HPC and I might have to so what how's that fair right to create a guy down the street just did this on his house that's right and well he was not a contributing house so
that's that's the it's one of the pieces of education we make is that you know if you're not a contributing house the list of minor application stuff so even a new roof you wouldn't have to come before this commission if you're a non-contributing house that putting on a new roof is a minor
application it would be additions correct out buildings things like that essentially limited to that sort of stuff we can itemize that we can make a little presentation right instead of Yeah instead of just putting a pressure say we're having this meeting
with date and time the public are invited to attend maybe if we could put some brief explanations to dissuade some of the fear in that press release this way you know a lot of people may read that and say "Hey it's really not going to affect me that bad." And you won't
have people showing up with pitchforks not gun yeah i mean usually it's it's torches brand torches whatever i mean they really the issue sort of devolves Jake as to whether or not you want to make the arguments in advance is what I think
you're saying i think this all leads back to the original question right i think it all comes back to what what's the question that they're going to ask well you know why did you do this why why are we doing this period so then why are you including me you know in this
deal then you know what's the implication to me you know and and you know let me hear some examples of where it would affect me and where it wouldn't affect me and I think it's going to be you know kind of a question of um it you know is this does at the end of the day does this even matter you
know why are we why why are we why are we so interested in this you know there was one case where there was someone was very heated at one of the meetings it was a girl about and again it was probably a misunderstanding but this is going to be I don't know whether it was at a city council meeting it was at a
city council meeting and there was it was around the time that the property surveys were updated and there was some confusion in the zoning office about that but yeah I mean you would have thought that the sky was falling because this person was in the HPC and they were non-contributing so it's like Janice was correct it's it's because of the
streetscape a consistent streetscape so guys back to the original question how do we want to go about preparing for that presentation on that day with the public i I I I think we should come up with everyone come up with a list of
negatives that that we think they're going to complain about and then somebody else come up with the answers to it before we all get together well we could all do positives and negatives the issue though it seems to me sort of one of the things that's been
raised here is should we put out notices or should we put out notices with additional things like argument prep in them which is what Jake suggests or do we reserve our fire for the time where we make a complete presentation at the
session live i mean it seems to me we might want to address that well I think a good press release that talks about common misperceptions about what it means to be in the historic district and the idea that when it was originally developed
it should have been this this complete district but and and I have no idea do we even know why certain buildings were dropped out like missing teeth i mean was the sense then that you
had to protect some buildings from having to go before the HBC well I mean in the old day in the old days it was a p were complaining and there was a primary and a secondary district so John one idea you might want
to consider is um we we talked about inviting um members of down for a visit in the spring members of the state historic preservation office Andrea and one of her staff members you may float the idea
to her that she could come that particular day and then attend the meeting and give the state the state's reasons why they would support this and she would also be helpful i think she could also talk about other historic districts that have straight lines she
can give a statewide perspective of why this is favorable yeah that's a good idea that's a great idea so again guys I don't think we're going to get this whole thing figured out tonight so what's the process you guys would like to use to prepare for that meeting i'm
coming right back to the same question we want to have a committee do we want to have a special meeting with all of us which would then need to be open to the public how do we want to do this i think we all get together and brainstorm i mean 10 minds are better than a small committee but that makes
everyone knows what we're looking for and there's a lot of Then it has to be a has to be a public meeting i I I don't I I totally agree with you just it needs to be a public meeting would I mean do you think Warren would be interested in coming and giving a
little background or I think he I don't think so i I'll bet not i he might actually i'll be more than I think he's more knowledgeable about the rationale than any I think we should be able we're here to develop the rationale i I
understand but it dates back to he was part of the problem yeah i think people being afraid to come find out what's going on and I think he has some battle scars i can tell you what I've heard if so maybe maybe the way to handle that is
um I I'd be more than happy to get Warren's input and I'll be happy to to do that but if we're going to have a public meeting among our commissioners so the next thing on the agenda for me is thinking about the next alignment workshop what if we just see if we can
plan another special meeting for all of us sometime in May that gives us plenty of time to plan this meeting because we already have the letter written the press release is going to be easy because it's an essentialized version of what we've already written and if we're
going to save our fires pretty much for the day I think we have to do that i think we have to have a full special meeting on this either that or you have to be bombarded with a bunch of suggestions i'm sorry we have to open that to the public oh we we did definitely do if there's Is there is there any way yes we did it was open to
the public nobody showed up no there were there were four or five people that showed up we had to give them what Judy we had to give them 10 days notice i forget what it was i got to ask you Chris is is there any way that whether it's because of privilege legal advice um drafting
stage that that we can do things like the equivalent of closed sessions not for something like this because this is really it's not like talking about a litigation development no no i mean not at this stage no and and maybe maybe
there's a benefit to just talking about it in public because that's the go kind of the goal here is to Sure i I think the transparency here is of the day always right so guys
um what would folks think about the week so last time we did this we did it on a Thursday afternoon as I recall and it was from uh we actually we did it so that we could have lunch while we were here we could also
call Mandy's Let's call Mandy's now right call Mandy's now so we could do that do we want to plan another meeting for 10 to 2 on let's say a Thursday okay all right so let's just check some
Thursdays guys um I'm not sure any of these are going to work for me yet but May 1st 16th or 22nd the 16th is a Friday and it's the first day of the jazz festival i'm sorry first
8th or 15th first is a problem for me yeah same here it's my mother-in-law's 100th birthday 15th works for me so we're not gonna We can't Happy birthday first is not good for me how about the 8th or the 15th
eth works for me either of those i'm sorry Chris either is fine with me yes eth everybody it's unanimous on the eth eth yeah yeah yeah so we just need to make make sure we can get this room or
another room um for May 8th from 10 to 2 now we have to put out public notice for that which has to go out how many days in advance Chris 48 hours 48 hours that's all okay all right so this is a second work yep and the primary focus is
going to be well I would suggest two things one is first and foremost organizing our presentation for the historic map amendment public meeting scheduled for June 9th and the second is a list of all the other issues that I've
already asked you guys to start putting together what are our priorities of activities i've been I've been keeping a running list as well you just said 9th now question you did mean the eth right not the nth but you just said 9th 8th of May okay june 9th is the public meeting yeah okay yep that's our brainstorming
that we're doing as a public meeting correct and if there's anybody here I'll be amazed yeah but it's also Yeah with Paul Dedric and um Yeah it's going to be a public meeting for like 15 minutes so guys let let's just call this for simplicity purposes alignment
workshop number two okay but we we want to put on the agenda for that special meeting you know the alignment workshop but we're also going to be t talking about the proposed you know map discussion exactly i I will need to put together an agenda and you remember the
last time I also wrote a little description i'll write a little description and an agenda and anybody who wants to see that I can send it out to all of you if you'd like would you like to all see that yeah sure all right i'll do that within the next week okay and then so John and I split up the cost
of the last lunch anybody want to I'm Yeah we'll do it okay oh you're going to take the lunch responsibility off my shoulders yes thank you as long as you go to Mandy's you going to Mandy's it's Copyca
it's Capcola what kind of are you Jim the kind that doesn't speak dialect all right guys so that's perfect because that combined those two issues at the end of this discussion all right so basically what we've just decided is on
May the 8th from 10 to 2 we're going to meet in here as long as Judy's able to reserve this room mhm for the purpose of preparing for our June 9th public meeting on the map amendment and to identify other priorities for our work over the next year y sound good sounds
good bueno any other comments before we adjourn this meeting i just have one other thing to add the Cluey pool application appeal to the zoning board that's going to be heard this Thursday 6 p.m i'm actually
going to be in Florida i'm going on vacation this week but I'm going to be zooming or going to be calling in for that meeting so but that'll be at the zoning board 6 p.m thursday this room 6 p.m yes yeah yeah the last I don't know where it's on the agenda but that's when the that's when the meeting starts last
one got cancelled pretty much at the last minute they requested an adjournment okay i have a quick question uh the G was coming to Washington for the roof we knew about the ordinance
change weeks in advance why did they have to come back you know well first of all it wasn't an ordinance change i want I really want to make sure that that is never interpreted that way policy change see well it's not really a policy change
either it was an it was interpretation it was an evolve It was an evolving deeper understanding of a common interpretation of our standards that required a significant amount of research that hadn't yet been done right
so I I would really in my mind and I think this is accurate it was not a policy change it was an a reinterpretation given new information because we got new information from the state that we didn't have before the
Tuesday review we had some people in the bathroom and right we had them come in gave them the the go ahead well that particular team they had been denied in the past i understand it yeah so I mean
rather than waste your time and our time why don't we just say "Come on two things i don't need your lawyer." We'll get it we'll get it right Yogi no I don't i didn't know i think that would be a great idea but that would require going back in our files and and identifying every one because a lot of
those folks just abandoned the project right but I mean I would love to do that yeah it would be a greater public service but I mean that would really require all of our past application well we don't want to do that
mot motion to adjurnn but before you do that would do you think it'd be worth it to spend just a few minutes john I was going to think you would do this um talk about the Beach Theater and the discussions we've had with uh with them at our Tuesday you know morning
sessions well they're going to come back they're coming back with a full commission yeah they're going to come back to the full commission so I think I think we should wait until they come back for the presentation because we don't know what they're going to bring to us not for sure i think we Yeah
all right it's 9:50 do I have a a motion to adjurnn so moved Mr chairman meeting adjourned at 9:52 before Mr lou Peele
thanks Yogi so so after you get through showing pictures of the kids that'd be great okay good it's Thursday yeah so do you want to go to dinner mike's sister died she only got three eggs so do you mean
Marvin's gone he's in He's in Greece yeah and then she gave him away it's just you and me bro and maybe Craig so you're flying down uh yeah